Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but I do believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple answers short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; MCSE or CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my choice... HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the other about Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the MCSE because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), however I read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & 2000) but haven't attempted any exams. Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in the spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology Overview, Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis for the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that was to see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up a couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really have been PISSEDhaving a qualification to THE LAB and basically only theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was supposed to be the crown jewel of networking!!! my .02 worth Rick In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference between > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there are only 6000 > of them in the world... > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you want a > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. The CCIE will > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few people have > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments and managers > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have seen people > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that were CCNAs > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of the CCNA > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe they are > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a certain degree. > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily be 10 times > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will still be > there ;-) Just my opinion. >Regards, > > > -Original Message- > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be hard. I > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The couple of > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > In any line of work, supply and demand rule the market. The more IE's > there are out there, the less they'll be making. Not only that, but we > lowly CCNP's and CCDP's can probably expect even less. You point out > that there are way more doctors, lawyers, etc... well, there's more of a > demand for doctors and lawyers. It's a simple comparison: ask yourself > how many people in a given population get sick or decide to sue someone, > and compare that to the number of people who need a network designed. > > What's more, the easier any cert exam is to obtain, the worse its > reputation becomes; just ask Microsoft. It'll be years before the MCSE > is a respected certification again... why? Because it was too easy to > get. Everyone's got a story about an MCSE who talked big but couldn't > edit an LMHosts file, or couldn't set up a trust relationship, or > couldn't install a NIC. If the IE truly does get easier, how long will > it be before everyone has a similar story about a CCIE?I for one hope > Cisco keeps the lab challenging... I want the IE, but I want to work for > it. > > Hal Logan > Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty > Computing and Engineering Technology > Manatee Community College > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Marshal Schoener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:30 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > What is funny is that people are concerned with the > > possibility of 5 digit > > amounts of CCIEs at all. > > Considering there are way more doctors, lawyers, salesman, > > brokers, etc etc > > etc etc etc in just about every small city than there are > > CCIEs world wide, > > it doesn't seem something very logical to worry about. > > In fact
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Comments inline: wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; MCSE or > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my choice... > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the other > about > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the MCSE > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), however I > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & 2000) > but haven't attempted any exams. On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but I do > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple answers > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in the > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > Overview, > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis for > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that was > to > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up a > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really have > been PISSEDhaving a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was supposed > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > my .02 worth > > Rick > I'm not sure, but I think that you may have fallen into one of the most common traps in the IT cert world - which is believing that the CCIE written exam is comparable to the lab. I can assure you that the difficulty of the written is perhaps 5% as difficult as the lab exam, and perhaps less than 1%. Simply put, the difference between the written and the lab is like night and day, and anybody who has tried both would agree, I'm sure (does anybody out there who has tried both exams disagree?). About those books that you mentioned - Caslow, Doyle, Halabi, etc. I believe that when people recommended them, they were doing so for the lab exam. I can recall nothing in those books that was useful for the written. But I doubt that there is a single person who has passed the lab lately who has not read them. About your notion that the written is too easy, I agree completely. This has actually been well-known within the CCIE community - that the written exam was simply not getting the job done. Hence, Cisco is now rewriting the written and it is expected that it will be much harder and more representative of what the CCIE program will be all about. You also stated that the Microsoft certs are more useful in getting work than Cisco certs, implying that Microsoft certs are more useful than Cisco certs. I believe that it all comes down to the interactions of supply and demand that determines the value of anything in this world. It is most certainly true that there are more positions available for Microsoft trained people (higher demand), as a typical organization needs many more Microsoft admins than Cisco admins. But that's not the whole side of the story, because you have neglected the supply side of the equation. I would certainly agree that if there were an equal number of Cisco-certified people in the world as there are Microsoft-certified people, than the Microsoft cert would be more valuable. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I do know there this is not the case - there are many many more Microsoft-certified people than there are Cisco people. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. CCIE's tend to have better jobs than MCSE's do, and this is because of the disproportionately low supply of CCIE's vs. the supply of MCSE' that easily compensates for the lower demand. I'll give you an extreme analogy. My favorite spectator sport is NFL football. We all know that star NFL quarterbacks make millions. But is that due to some huge demand for QB's? Not really - there are only 32 NFL teams, so there is a worldwide demand of only 32 starting quarterbacks. So how is it that these guys, especially the stars, can make so much money? Simple - there are at most 50 or maybe 75 people in the world who can be legitimate NFL starting quarterbacks. Of that, maybe only 5-10 of them can legitimately be considered to be star players. The point is even if demand is low for something, the value of that thing can still be high if supply is disproporionately low. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=21638&t=3485 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
As of last week there are 279,000 MCSE's worldwide. I don't know what the CCNP numbers which is probably the comparable certification to the MCSE. Everything else you said I completely agree with. John Kaberna CCIE #7146 NETCG Inc. Cisco Premier Partner www.netcginc.com (415) 750-3800 __ CCIE Security Training www.netcginc.com/training.htm ""nrf"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Comments inline: > > > wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; > MCSE or > > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my choice... > > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the other > > about > > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the MCSE > > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), however I > > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & > 2000) > > but haven't attempted any exams. On a whim I took the CCIE written this > past Saturday. Didn't pass but I do > > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple > answers > > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > > > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in the > > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > > Overview, > > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis for > > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that was > > to > > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up a > > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really have > > been PISSEDhaving a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was > supposed > > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > > > my .02 worth > > > > Rick > > > > > I'm not sure, but I think that you may have fallen into one of the most > common traps in the IT cert world - which is believing that the CCIE written > exam is comparable to the lab. I can assure you that the difficulty of the > written is perhaps 5% as difficult as the lab exam, and perhaps less than > 1%. Simply put, the difference between the written and the lab is like > night and day, and anybody who has tried both would agree, I'm sure (does > anybody out there who has tried both exams disagree?). > > About those books that you mentioned - Caslow, Doyle, Halabi, etc. I > believe that when people recommended them, they were doing so for the lab > exam. I can recall nothing in those books that was useful for the written. > But I doubt that there is a single person who has passed the lab lately who > has not read them. > > About your notion that the written is too easy, I agree completely. This > has actually been well-known within the CCIE community - that the written > exam was simply not getting the job done. Hence, Cisco is now rewriting the > written and it is expected that it will be much harder and more > representative of what the CCIE program will be all about. > > > You also stated that the Microsoft certs are more useful in getting work > than Cisco certs, implying that Microsoft certs are more useful than Cisco > certs. I believe that it all comes down to the interactions of supply and > demand that determines the value of anything in this world. It is most > certainly true that there are more positions available for Microsoft trained > people (higher demand), as a typical organization needs many more Microsoft > admins than Cisco admins. But that's not the whole side of the story, > because you have neglected the supply side of the equation. I would > certainly agree that if there were an equal number of Cisco-certified people > in the world as there are Microsoft-certified people, than the Microsoft > cert would be more valuable. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I do > know there this is not the case - there are many many more > Microsoft-certified people than there are Cisco people. The proof of the > pudding is in the eating. CCIE's tend to have better jobs than MCSE's do, > and this is because of the disproportionately low supply of CCIE's vs. the > supply of MCSE' that easily compensates for the lower demand. > > I'll give you an extreme analogy. My favorite spectator sport is NFL > football. We all know that star NFL quarterbacks make millions. But is > that due to some huge demand for QB's? Not really - there are only 32 NFL > teams, so there is a worldwide demand of only 32 starting quarterbacks. So > how is it that these guys, especially the stars, can make so much money? > Simple - there are at most 50 or maybe 75 people in the world who can b
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building behind. I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I live in a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are very much in demand. The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went down it was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that nose-dived, the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple switches, an access router and a real non-internet related business are still going strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) they need database access, email, and system management product specialists. I think we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff is Cisco, but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the net wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. Reminds me of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank by the ugly green-toothed pirates. MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. CNE 4.11 - already stripped CCN/DP - current CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt Don - Original Message - From: ; To: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but I do > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple answers > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; MCSE or > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my choice... > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the other > about > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the MCSE > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), however I > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & 2000) > but haven't attempted any exams. > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in the > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > Overview, > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis for > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that was > to > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up a > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really have > been PISSEDhaving a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was supposed > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > my .02 worth > > Rick > > In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference between > > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there are only > 6000 > > of them in the world... > > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you want a > > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. The CCIE > will > > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few people have > > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments and managers > > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have seen people > > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that were CCNAs > > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of the CCNA > > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe they are > > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a certain degree. > > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily be 10 > times > > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will still be > > there ;-) Just my opinion. > >Regards, > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be hard. I > > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The couple of > > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > > > In any line of work
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a lot more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average JNCIE takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while there is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last count, 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for anything.Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an extra pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take care of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs pay well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and that's because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, which keeps wages low.Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in the supply side as well. Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in more than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe only 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that it is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft world to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might run into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might hamstring them because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in developing their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to produce a viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is fully compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody really knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make judgements based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. But the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the low supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building behind. > I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I live in > a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are very much > in demand. > The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went down it > was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that nose-dived, > the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple switches, an > access router and a real non-internet related business are still going > strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) they need > database access, email, and system management product specialists. I think > we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff is Cisco, > but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the net > wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. Reminds me > of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank by the > ugly green-toothed pirates. > MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. > CNE 4.11 - already stripped > CCN/DP - current > CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt > Don > > > - Original Message - > From: ; > To: ; ; > Sent: Monday, Octo
RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as they do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to come. and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience is a bit much, so i am assuming that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person knowledge/sill set which varies hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork out for employees and what they bring to the company. So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > -Original Message- > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > lot > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > JNCIE > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > there > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > count, > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for > anything.Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an > extra > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take > care > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs > pay > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > that's > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, > which > keeps wages low.Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in > the supply side as well. > > Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the > MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in > more > than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply > for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them > for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe > only > 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that > it > is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still > compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. > > Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and > ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. > But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft > world > to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback > with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might > run > into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might hamstring > them > because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in > developing > their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to produce a > viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is > fully > compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody really > knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make judgements > based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is > happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than > MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. > But > the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the low > supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. > > > > ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Yeah an MCSE on
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
About Juniper losing market share. Well, the same could be said for Microsoft or Cisco or anybody else. Sure Juniper might disappear. On the other hand, Juniper might take over the core routing world, and become dominant in edge routing. Why not? Cisco was able to take over the networking industry in a relatively short amount of time (they only IPO'd in 1986, they were dominant by the mid-90's), and if Juniper has the consensus best technology in the industry, then is it really impossible for Juniper to do what Cisco did? Now I am not saying that they are guaranteed to do so, I'm just saying that it's possible. If this happens, then you would agree that anybody who knows Juniper will be sitting pretty. The point is, who's to say what is going to happen in the future? All anybody really can say for sure is that Juniper has a strong position in the marketplace, and that position could get stronger or weaker in the future. Who knows? About your comments on experience. Of course it is true that experience is important. But at the same time, it is also true that, holding experience constant, some skills are quite frankly more valuable than others, and that could be due to that skill being in high demand, or in short supply, or both. For example JNCIE's tend to have many years of experience in high-end core backbone routing, whereas MCSE's tend to have experience in desktop management/LAN sys-admin, etc. I believe it is the case that years of core backbone routing are on average more valuable than an equivalent number of years of being a LAN sys-admin. Now I know that might make some of you upset, and you will point out that some MCSE sys-admins make huge amounts of money, and of course that is true. But I'm just talking about the averages here.The reason for this discrepancy is clear. It is damn hard to break into the world of core routing, whereas it is relatively easy to become a sysadmin. Therefore there is a much larger pool of sysadmins that overcomes the greater demand for sysadmins. The inexorable laws of supply and demand - a high demand can be overwhelmed by an even higher supply. I'll give you an extreme example. People with 20 years of experience in practicing medicine or practicing law are going to make more on average than somebody with 20 years of experience in manual labor. Why? It's not because there is more demand for medicine or law than there is manual labor, because that's obviously not true. There is clearly more demand for manual labor than there is demand for doctors or lawyers. So it's not the demand side of the equation that is at play here. Rather it's supply - there are so many more manual laborers than there are doctors and lawyers, and this supply 'glut' overwhelmes the greater demand for them.The point here is that even with equivalent experience, some skills are more valuable than others, and the reason for that is often due to constricted supply - a skill may be valuable not because there is a gigantic demand for it, but because quite frankly, nobody else has that skill. I know that seems harsh, but that's reality. ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > they > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > come. > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > is a bit much, so i am assuming > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > knowledge/sill set which varies > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork > out for employees and what > they bring to the company. > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > -----Original Message- > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > > lot > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > JNCIE > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > there > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-t
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
I'd like to add that I highly doubt that any of the JNCIE's have little to no experience. It's not like there is a ton of training materials and bootcamps out there. The JNCIE's have to rely on real experience far more than the CCIE or any other cert. But, I do think that 225k as an average is very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number. John Kaberna CCIE #7146 NETCG Inc. Cisco Premier Partner www.netcginc.com (415) 750-3800 __ CCIE Security Training www.netcginc.com/training.htm ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > they > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > come. > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > is a bit much, so i am assuming > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > knowledge/sill set which varies > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork > out for employees and what > they bring to the company. > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > > lot > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > JNCIE > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > there > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > > count, > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in > > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for > > anything.Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing > > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an > > extra > > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take > > care > > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have > > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, > > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high > > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs > > pay > > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > > that's > > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, > > which > > keeps wages low.Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the > > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The > > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in > > the supply side as well. > > > > Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the > > MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in > > more > > than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply > > for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them > > for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe > > only > > 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that > > it > > is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still > > compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. > > > > Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and > > ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. > > But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft > > world > > to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback > > with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might > > r
RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
And the alien ships could possibly land tomorrow, but I'm not mowing "LAND HERE!" in my lawn in anticipation of it happening. I not going to go out and buy Juniper's stock just on the off-chance that they MIGHT be able to consistently build a better product, or they MIGHT eventually be able to run Cisco out of town on a rail, or that they MIGHT be able to overcome the worst economy in decades. It would be just SWELL if life worked that way, but I'm not placing any bets just yet. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] About Juniper losing market share. Well, the same could be said for Microsoft or Cisco or anybody else. Sure Juniper might disappear. On the other hand, Juniper might take over the core routing world, and become dominant in edge routing. Why not? Cisco was able to take over the networking industry in a relatively short amount of time (they only IPO'd in 1986, they were dominant by the mid-90's), and if Juniper has the consensus best technology in the industry, then is it really impossible for Juniper to do what Cisco did? Now I am not saying that they are guaranteed to do so, I'm just saying that it's possible. If this happens, then you would agree that anybody who knows Juniper will be sitting pretty. The point is, who's to say what is going to happen in the future? All anybody really can say for sure is that Juniper has a strong position in the marketplace, and that position could get stronger or weaker in the future. Who knows? About your comments on experience. Of course it is true that experience is important. But at the same time, it is also true that, holding experience constant, some skills are quite frankly more valuable than others, and that could be due to that skill being in high demand, or in short supply, or both. For example JNCIE's tend to have many years of experience in high-end core backbone routing, whereas MCSE's tend to have experience in desktop management/LAN sys-admin, etc. I believe it is the case that years of core backbone routing are on average more valuable than an equivalent number of years of being a LAN sys-admin. Now I know that might make some of you upset, and you will point out that some MCSE sys-admins make huge amounts of money, and of course that is true. But I'm just talking about the averages here.The reason for this discrepancy is clear. It is damn hard to break into the world of core routing, whereas it is relatively easy to become a sysadmin. Therefore there is a much larger pool of sysadmins that overcomes the greater demand for sysadmins. The inexorable laws of supply and demand - a high demand can be overwhelmed by an even higher supply. I'll give you an extreme example. People with 20 years of experience in practicing medicine or practicing law are going to make more on average than somebody with 20 years of experience in manual labor. Why? It's not because there is more demand for medicine or law than there is manual labor, because that's obviously not true. There is clearly more demand for manual labor than there is demand for doctors or lawyers. So it's not the demand side of the equation that is at play here. Rather it's supply - there are so many more manual laborers than there are doctors and lawyers, and this supply 'glut' overwhelmes the greater demand for them.The point here is that even with equivalent experience, some skills are more valuable than others, and the reason for that is often due to constricted supply - a skill may be valuable not because there is a gigantic demand for it, but because quite frankly, nobody else has that skill. I know that seems harsh, but that's reality. ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > they > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > come. > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > is a bit much, so i am assuming > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > knowledge/sill set which varies > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork > out for employees and what > they bring to the company. > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Hey, by that same token, nobody should ever take a chance at anything new, and should always stick to their old skills. Nobody should ever take a shot on something new. For example, I remember back when Microsoft launched the first Windows NT, I suppose you would argue that you shouldn't learn NT, but should stick with Netware. Or when Cisco was still in a grudge match with Wellfleet, 3com, or Cabletron, then you would advocate not studying Cisco until it was clear that there were going to win. Or when UNIX started to challenge the mainframe paradigm, then anybody who decided to learn UNIX must be dumb. But we've all seen the history. The first few hundred MCSE's enjoyed a disproportionate amount of rewards from the program. The people who learned Cisco back in the late 80's/early 90's (before everybody else did) have benefitted greatly. The first people to pick up UNIX enjoyed outsize benefits. Somebody on this board said that, when it comes to the marketplace, certs and skills are basically a pyramid scheme, where the first people to get in on it tend to reap most of the benefits, and those who come in too late get the shaft. Now by this I am not saying that Juniper will win. Like I said, I don't know what will happen in the future. They might win, they might lose, who knows? If you feel that spending time to pick up Juniper skills is too risky for you, then fine, don't do it. But you must agree that if Juniper really does win, then those who got in early will benefit. And why is it so inconceivable that they won't win? They have better technology and good management, kind of like Cisco in its youth. Now that doesn't guarantee anything, but it definitely does not make the possibility of them winning ridiculous. You analogy of aliens was uncalled for. Using your logic, I could argue that nobody should ever bother to learn anything (Cisco,Juniper, Microsoft, etc.), because tomorrow there might be a nuclear war. ""Mossburg, Geoff (CEI-Atlanta)"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > And the alien ships could possibly land tomorrow, but I'm not mowing > "LAND HERE!" in my lawn in anticipation of it happening. I not going to > go out and buy Juniper's stock just on the off-chance that they MIGHT be > able to consistently build a better product, or they MIGHT eventually be > able to run Cisco out of town on a rail, or that they MIGHT be able to > overcome the worst economy in decades. It would be just SWELL if life > worked that way, but I'm not placing any bets just yet. > > -Original Message----- > From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > About Juniper losing market share. Well, the same could be said for > Microsoft or Cisco or anybody else. Sure Juniper might disappear. On > the > other hand, Juniper might take over the core routing world, and become > dominant in edge routing. Why not? Cisco was able to take over the > networking industry in a relatively short amount of time (they only > IPO'd in > 1986, they were dominant by the mid-90's), and if Juniper has the > consensus > best technology in the industry, then is it really impossible for > Juniper to > do what Cisco did? Now I am not saying that they are guaranteed to do > so, > I'm just saying that it's possible. If this happens, then you would > agree > that anybody who knows Juniper will be sitting pretty. The point is, > who's > to say what is going to happen in the future? All anybody really can > say > for sure is that Juniper has a strong position in the marketplace, and > that > position could get stronger or weaker in the future. Who knows? > > > > > About your comments on experience. Of course it is true that experience > is > important. But at the same time, it is also true that, holding > experience > constant, some skills are quite frankly more valuable than others, and > that > could be due to that skill being in high demand, or in short supply, or > both. For example JNCIE's tend to have many years of experience in > high-end > core backbone routing, whereas MCSE's tend to have experience in desktop > management/LAN sys-admin, etc. I believe it is the case that years of > core > backbone routing are on average more valuable than an equivalent number > of > years of being a LAN sys-admin. Now I know that might make some of you > upset, and you will point out that some MCSE sys-admins make huge > amounts of > money, and of course that is true. But I'm just talking about the > averages > here.The reason for this di
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Well, I can't prove that salary number to you. But just consider some of these facts. There are only 17 JNCIE's in the world right now . The demand for Juniper skills is clearly there, as according to Yahoo Finance, Juniper sold $1 billion of revenue in the last 12 months, so clearly somebody has been buying their stuff. Again, according to Yahoo, Cisco sold $22 billion of stuff in the last 12 months, for a ratio of 22:1 in sales vis-a-vis Juniper. A very simplistic assumption would be that if Cisco sells 22 times more stuff, then there should be 22 times more CCIE's than JNCIE's for the supply-demand curves of each to be equivalent. Yet right now, there are about 6500 CCIE's, for a ratio of about 380:1, or about 17 times higher than what would be the case if the supply-demand curves were equivalent. Now, we both know that CCIE's make good money. There is a lot of dispute about exactly how much, but we both know it's rather high. Now, consider a situation where the number of CCIE's was decreased to 1/17 of what it is now. In such a world. I don't think it is at all outrageous to think that CCIE's would make $225,000 a year, or even more, in that kind of world. Now I actually think that the above assumption is actually biased in favor of Cisco. This is because quite a bit of their revenue is drawn from products that have nothing to do with the CCIE program. For example the ONS optical stuff. Or IP telephony. Sales of this gear would imply a greater demand for people who know those skills, but not necessarily CCIE's (I, for example, know almost nothing about the ONS line). Whereas Juniper basically sells only routers, and router components. So there is a much clearer link between the JNCIE and Juniper sales than there is the CCIE and Cisco sales. I would actually argue that the real ratio of CCIE's to JNCIE"s should actually be substantially less than 22:1, which therefore makes the accompanying analysis even more stark and slanted in favor of the JNCIE. ""John Kaberna"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I'd like to add that I highly doubt that any of the JNCIE's have little to > no experience. It's not like there is a ton of training materials and > bootcamps out there. The JNCIE's have to rely on real experience far more > than the CCIE or any other cert. But, I do think that 225k as an average is > very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number. > > John Kaberna > CCIE #7146 > NETCG Inc. > Cisco Premier Partner > www.netcginc.com > (415) 750-3800 > > __ > CCIE Security Training > www.netcginc.com/training.htm > > > ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > > they > > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > > come. > > > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > > is a bit much, so i am assuming > > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > > knowledge/sill set which varies > > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to > fork > > out for employees and what > > they bring to the company. > > > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > > > lot > > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > > JNCIE > > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > > there > > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > > > count, > > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month)
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
You have a fundamental flaw in your comparison of sales. You are only looking at 1 year of sales. If you compare the amount of equipment currently running you will find a much greater percentage than 22:1. I'm sure there are plenty of JNCIE's that make 200+ a year. But, I am just doubting that is an average that's all. I do not believe that the average JNCIE makes double what a CCIE makes. If that's really true I'm going to go learn Juniper. John Kaberna CCIE #7146 NETCG Inc. Cisco Premier Partner www.netcginc.com (415) 750-3800 __ CCIE Security Training www.netcginc.com/training.htm ""nrf"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Well, I can't prove that salary number to you. But just consider some of > these facts. There are only 17 JNCIE's in the world right now . The demand > for Juniper skills is clearly there, as according to Yahoo Finance, Juniper > sold $1 billion of revenue in the last 12 months, so clearly somebody has > been buying their stuff. Again, according to Yahoo, Cisco sold $22 billion > of stuff in the last 12 months, for a ratio of 22:1 in sales vis-a-vis > Juniper. A very simplistic assumption would be that if Cisco sells 22 > times more stuff, then there should be 22 times more CCIE's than JNCIE's for > the supply-demand curves of each to be equivalent. Yet right now, there are > about 6500 CCIE's, for a ratio of about 380:1, or about 17 times higher than > what would be the case if the supply-demand curves were equivalent. > > > Now, we both know that CCIE's make good money. There is a lot of dispute > about exactly how much, but we both know it's rather high. Now, consider a > situation where the number of CCIE's was decreased to 1/17 of what it is > now. In such a world. I don't think it is at all outrageous to think that > CCIE's would make $225,000 a year, or even more, in that kind of world. > > Now I actually think that the above assumption is actually biased in favor > of Cisco. This is because quite a bit of their revenue is drawn from > products that have nothing to do with the CCIE program. For example the ONS > optical stuff. Or IP telephony. Sales of this gear would imply a greater > demand for people who know those skills, but not necessarily CCIE's (I, for > example, know almost nothing about the ONS line). Whereas Juniper > basically sells only routers, and router components. So there is a much > clearer link between the JNCIE and Juniper sales than there is the CCIE and > Cisco sales. I would actually argue that the real ratio of CCIE's to JNCIE"s > should actually be substantially less than 22:1, which therefore makes the > accompanying analysis even more stark and slanted in favor of the JNCIE. > > > > > > > ""John Kaberna"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I'd like to add that I highly doubt that any of the JNCIE's have little to > > no experience. It's not like there is a ton of training materials and > > bootcamps out there. The JNCIE's have to rely on real experience far more > > than the CCIE or any other cert. But, I do think that 225k as an average > is > > very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number. > > > > John Kaberna > > CCIE #7146 > > NETCG Inc. > > Cisco Premier Partner > > www.netcginc.com > > (415) 750-3800 > > > > __ > > CCIE Security Training > > www.netcginc.com/training.htm > > > > > > ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons > as > > > they > > > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years > to > > > come. > > > > > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no > experience > > > is a bit much, so i am assuming > > > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > > > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > > > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > > > knowledge/sill set which varies > > > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > > > > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to > > fork > > > out for employees and what > > > they bring to the company. > > > > > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k i
RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Okay, maybe the alien thing was a little uncalled for... I wasn't trying to be a fatalist; I just think that Juniper has to do a hell of a lot more punching before they're even a contender. There is a lot of technology out there competing to be the next big thing and Juniper is just another face in the crowd when it comes to that. With every success you mentioned, I'm sure a little research will dig up a dozen or so failures that were trying to accomplish similar goals. How many times have technologies... GOOD technologies... come and gone because other factors (economic, internal, etc.) caused their downfall? It's a little like Linux trying to take over the desktop market; it doesn't matter how much I like it and hate Microsoft because it's just not likely to happen, even if it is a better product and free to boot. In the current economic climate, people are becoming more conservative, and so need proof that new equipment will add value to their company. Cisco has diversified so much and proven themselves so consistently that I can't honestly see Juniper as having anything more than a niche in the market. Others can rush out to get their Juniper cert, but it sounds to me like a waste of time and money. Getting your Cisco certs doesn't automatically mean you'll make a lot of money either, but I've been pretty successful with Cisco certs and products; from a conservative standpoint, I'm going with what I know and what has worked for me. I concede that Juniper could, possibly (if improbably) pull ahead of Cisco as the premier networking hardware company in the world, but it's not worth jumping on the bandwagon for just yet. -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] Hey, by that same token, nobody should ever take a chance at anything new, and should always stick to their old skills. Nobody should ever take a shot on something new. For example, I remember back when Microsoft launched the first Windows NT, I suppose you would argue that you shouldn't learn NT, but should stick with Netware. Or when Cisco was still in a grudge match with Wellfleet, 3com, or Cabletron, then you would advocate not studying Cisco until it was clear that there were going to win. Or when UNIX started to challenge the mainframe paradigm, then anybody who decided to learn UNIX must be dumb. But we've all seen the history. The first few hundred MCSE's enjoyed a disproportionate amount of rewards from the program. The people who learned Cisco back in the late 80's/early 90's (before everybody else did) have benefitted greatly. The first people to pick up UNIX enjoyed outsize benefits. Somebody on this board said that, when it comes to the marketplace, certs and skills are basically a pyramid scheme, where the first people to get in on it tend to reap most of the benefits, and those who come in too late get the shaft. Now by this I am not saying that Juniper will win. Like I said, I don't know what will happen in the future. They might win, they might lose, who knows? If you feel that spending time to pick up Juniper skills is too risky for you, then fine, don't do it. But you must agree that if Juniper really does win, then those who got in early will benefit. And why is it so inconceivable that they won't win? They have better technology and good management, kind of like Cisco in its youth. Now that doesn't guarantee anything, but it definitely does not make the possibility of them winning ridiculous. You analogy of aliens was uncalled for. Using your logic, I could argue that nobody should ever bother to learn anything (Cisco,Juniper, Microsoft, etc.), because tomorrow there might be a nuclear war. ""Mossburg, Geoff (CEI-Atlanta)"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > And the alien ships could possibly land tomorrow, but I'm not mowing > "LAND HERE!" in my lawn in anticipation of it happening. I not going to > go out and buy Juniper's stock just on the off-chance that they MIGHT be > able to consistently build a better product, or they MIGHT eventually be > able to run Cisco out of town on a rail, or that they MIGHT be able to > overcome the worst economy in decades. It would be just SWELL if life > worked that way, but I'm not placing any bets just yet. > > -Original Message- > From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > About Juniper losing market share. Well, the same could be said for > Microsoft or Cisco or anybody else. Sure Juniper might disappear. On > the > other hand, Juniper might
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number. > > > > > > John Kaberna > > > CCIE #7146 > > > NETCG Inc. > > > Cisco Premier Partner > > > www.netcginc.com > > > (415) 750-3800 > > > > > > __ > > > CCIE Security Training > > > www.netcginc.com/training.htm > > > > > > > > > ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons > > as > > > > they > > > > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in > months/years > > to > > > > come. > > > > > > > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no > > experience > > > > is a bit much, so i am assuming > > > > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > > > > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > > > > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > > > > knowledge/sill set which varies > > > > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > > > > > > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing > to > > > fork > > > > out for employees and what > > > > they bring to the company. > > > > > > > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is > completely > > > > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell > of > > a > > > > > lot > > > > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the > average > > > > > JNCIE > > > > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than > the > > > > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but > I'm > > > > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - > while > > > > > there > > > > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > > > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at > last > > > > > count, > > > > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > > > > > > > > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled > > labor > > > in > > > > > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than > for > > > > > anything.Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, > > bussing > > > > > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use > an > > > > > extra > > > > > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to > > take > > > > > care > > > > > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies > don't > > > have > > > > > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. > > restaurants, > > > > > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the > really > > > high > > > > > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these > > jobs > > > > > pay > > > > > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > > > > > that's > > > > > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out > there, > > > > > which > > > > > keeps wages low.Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. > So > > > the > > > > > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available > manpower. > > > The > > > > > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must > > factor > > > in > > > > > the supply side as well. > > > > > > > > > > Now, there's no doubt, the market h
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
rs more than certs. But on the other hand, this thread started because somebody was implying that the MCSE was better than the CCIE. He was talking certs only. So, fine, I decided to fight him on his own terms. - Original Message - From: "Baker, Jason" To: "nrf" ; Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:47 PM Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > you are quoting ratios again and you have not gone completely against > juniper. Take example > below. > > how about quoting ratios of all cisco equipment out there to total CCIE's > and then take all Juniper equipment out in market place as opposed to > juniper certifed people. > I think you will find that to be extremely in favor of cisco. > > Also Juniper equipment is in service provider field. How many people get to > touch it ? Not many. > And those that do i am gathering are probably not certified in juniper > anyway. > > So if you are not using it, going on what you say you need hands on to get > cert, why is it worth > studying it, as the equipment is not in the persoanl lab market. > > So if you understand the technology regarless of cert and are good at what > you do, then you will > most likely get to use it. Therefore salary is not compleltely based on your > certification but > on what you know and can produce. > > so back to my initial argument being certified in juniper does not get you > your salary > > > Your point about ratios : agreed, which is why I made another post, where I tried to account for the legacy factor of Cisco gear. Once again, Cisco loses, even with extreme assumptions that favor Cisco. Please see my other post. The point is that a ratio of 380:1 is extremely difficult to wipe out, no matter what assumptions you use. So you say I should not use the annual run rates between the 2 companies, and that is reasonable. So instead I presume there is $330 billion of Cisco gear sitting around out there in the world, because it has been 15 years since Cisco's IPO times $22 billion of gear per year. This is clearly ridiculous because obviously Cisco has not sold $22 billion of gear every year since its IPO, and also because almost all of Cisco's gear that is more than a few years has been junked. But, fine we'll make that assumption. So then the ratio should be 330:1. What's the real ratio? 380:1 About your drumming on skills versus certs. You are correct, I have already conceded so. Of course it is true that experience and skills matter more than a cert. It is just much easier for me to type CCIE or JNCIE rather than "skills and experience that are generally held by the average CCIE or JNCIE" (also because this whole discussion was launched from guys talking about the MCSE vs. the CCIE, so I had to respond in kind) But , Okay fine. If it makes you feel any better, go back to all my posts on this thread and make that substitution every time I say CCIE or JNCIE. So basically, now what I am saying in all my posts is that I believe that a certain level of skill and experience in Juniper is more valuable than an equivalent level of skill and experience in Cisco. How about that? Now, about your point that it is unreasonable that regular people should go for Juniper due to lack of access, of course you are correct. I am not saying that people should just drop everything and go for Juniper if they do not have proper access. What I am saying is that if you are given a choice to study one or the other, and you have access to both. I believe it is better for you to go for Juniper. Furthermore, I believe that even if you don't have access to a Juniper lab right now, but you see the opportunity to make moves in your career such that you will have such access, then that is something you should consider. You've got to remember - this whole thread started because I was responding to somebody who was proposing that the MCSE was more valuable than the CCIE, and his reasons for saying so were that there are more Microsoft jobs than Cisco jobs out there. My response (this whole thread) was that just because there is more demand for a certain skill does not mean that that skills is necessarily more valuable, because you also need to look at the supply side of the equation, and I was using Juniper and the JNCIE as the counterargument (as an example of a skills with low demand and even lower supply). I was not proposing that everybody junk their Cisco lab and run to study Juniper, not at all. Scarcity was not a concern for this thread. Why not? Well, the guy who made the MCSE vs. CCIE argument wasn't invoking scarcity either, even though it is clearly easier and cheaper to set up an MCSE lab than a CCIE lab. So if he wasn't going to invoke scarcity in his argument, then why should I invoke it in my response? - Original Message - From: "Baker, Jason&q
Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485]
Whoops, my apologies. In my analysis, I had stated that Cisco's IPO was in 1986. Actually that is not true, and Cisco was actually founded in 1986, and its IPO was in 1990. I had confused it with Microsoft's IPO in 1986. Anyway, I believe it makes my analysis even more compelling. Let me summarize. I am making the eminently ridiculous assumption that Cisco has sold $22 billion of gear yearly since its founding, and that all that gear is still being utilized, even the gear that is 15 years old, for a grand total of $330 billion of Cisco gear out there, compared to only $1billion of existing Juniper gear (again, assuming Juniper has existed for only 1 year, which is also completely ridiculous, because Juniper's IPO was actually in 1998). Furthermore, I am assuming that all that Cisco gear is high-end like Juniper's equipment and therefore requires the same level of expertise per dollar sold that Juniper's equipment does (and we all know that's not true - you don't need a CCIE to set up a simple WAN that has a couple of 800's ). Furthermore, none of that gear is 'weird' equipment that average Cisco CCIE's do not know how to use, like ONS-15454 ADM's (which, by the way, Cisco actually has been selling about $1billion annually until the optical bust), or the like. So basically after coming up with the most unfair comparison possible, Juniper still wins out (330:1 according to revenue which is still less than the 380:1 ratio of xxIE's) . To quote Will Smith from the movie Men in Black: "Damn" The key is that a ratio of 380:1 is a large number that is not easily surmounted no matter what assumptions you throw at it. I have thrown some eminently ludicrous assumptions to attack that number, and I still can't beat it. So even though I am a CCIE myself and I hate having to say this, I must admit that if I were given the opportunity of trading my CCIE for a JNCIE, I would have to think about it - for about a microsecond. (Or, for those who continue to harp that it's skills that matter, not certs, let me modify that by saying that I would trade my skills and experience with Cisco routers for an equivalent amount of skill and experience with Juniper routers, how about that?) Simply put, I cannot escape the logic that there is significantly greater demand for Juniper expertise relative to the number of trained Juniper people out there than there is demand for Cisco expertise relative to the number of Cisco trained people. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=22100&t=3485 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
