Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Dr. Mark Bodnar]

ng new sails for both of my
  boats and I'm glad I did.  New sails just handle the wind and
  the gusts better.
   
  Another thing I noticed was
  that broker listed boats, where the broker actually returned
  calls, were, generally, more fairly priced.  I went out
  hunting a few times because some of the un-returned calls were
  on boats that looked great in the adds but, upon finding them
  on my own, I understood the un-returned calls.
   
  So, I just kept looking and
  looking and looking until something felt right.
   
  Anyway, those are my insights
  and experiences. worth every bit of $0.02 American
  or Canadian or Australian for that matter, I think!
   
  Danny
  Lolita
  1973 Viking 33
  Westport Point, MA
  

-- Original Message --
    From: Stevan Plavsa 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 23:36:04 -0400

Keep looking and don't settle. I got my 32 for
  18k, that's right in your ballpark. I was originally looking
  for 27s and 29s but I didn't find any that were reasonably
  priced or even in reasonable shape. I went to look at the 32
  on a whim because it was the closest boat to me, and a broker
  boat no less .. something I'de been avoiding up to that point.
  I had driven to NY to look at boats on the south shore of Lake
  Ontario, not a complete waste of time because it helped me
  compare and understand the market better.�
   
  And you know what? The 32, literally 5 minutes from my
house, was easily in way better shape than any of the boats
I'de looked at up to that point. I was sold on it instantly.
It was more boat than I hoped for and it was in reach. Life
is short and I can be pretty impulsive so I made an offer,
had it surveyed and bought the boat. I think the PO was
happy to get the 18k and I think he was happy to deal with
me, we got along great. Some other guy was in line before me
but he was a huge hassle for the seller. I lucked out, the
PO was a great guy.
 
�I don't race so my requirements may be different than
  yours. My boat is a freshwater boat and it surveyed well.
  The sails were worn out and I just spent $1600 (shipping
  in!) all told on a genoa from Rolly Tasker, it's a great
  sail and an incredible value. The main is still usable and
  will be for a couple of years yet. Canvas is still good,
  not great, but doesn't need replacing.  but I have
  spent a lot. I've spent money refurbishing the
  head/tanks/freshwater/wiring/instruments/stereo/solar and
  the list goes on. A boat that has had that stuff done is
  worth more, but then, if you do it yourself it's really
  YOUR boat. My boat is MY boat! I EARNED it because I fixed
  the shit out of it!�
 
 
Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto
 
 

   
   

  


  
  On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:50 PM,
Knowles Rich <r...@sailpower.ca>
wrote:
How about
  having a peek at my LF 38 just to get another picture?
  
  Rich Knowles
  Indigo. LF 38
  Halifax NS

  

  
  On 2013-08-01, at 20:27, "Dr. Mark Bodnar" <drbod...@accesswave.ca>
  wrote:
  
  >
  > Thanks for all the comments.
  >
  > Danny - Yes - I'm aware the "good condition"
  sails and the "year or 2" left in the canvas are
  pointing at need for replacement before long. �Guy
  selling the boat seems pretty straight, so I don't
  think he's over valuing the sails and they are totally
  shot.
  > As for the Nada value and the price - it is my
  understanding the NADA value is US based, boats
  locally list for a lot more than that. �Not much I can
  do other than buy a boat in the US and ship/sail it
  back. �As Mike noted - the cost of that adds up
  quickly. �Rough quote to ship a 30 back from NY was
  over $6000

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Graham Collins]

Hi Rick
Nope, the cradle lift I refer to is essentially a trailer shaped like a 
U that they back up around the cradle.  They then fit cross bars under 
the cradle, attaching them to the trailer, and then hudraulics lift the 
whole thing up in the air.  It can be moved by a small tractor (bobcat 
or similar).  It is only a few feet high, and only for moving cradles.


Properly done stands are indeed effective, but I think a cradle is much 
more idiot proof.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2013-08-02 11:38 PM, Rick Brass wrote:

May thru October was about the same as Michigan, and Mid-April to
mid-October was the norm in Philly.

I much prefer it down here when you only haul for maintenance or when you
need a bottom job - about every 3 or 4 years with good bottom paint.

The club I belonged to in Philly had an old travel lift trailer pulled by an
even older Oshkosh or Owatonna spotter truck. Most folks owned their own
jack stands, I purchased a cradle because a used shipping cradle was less
expensive than new stands - but it was a PITA to move around.

By "cradle lift" I presume you mean a big forklift capable of picking up
cradle and boat from the side? I am only familiar with the term as a type of
boat lift used to lift a boat out of the water at a dock or in a boat house.

In so far as a perception that a cradle is superior to stands, I can only
say that my 38 has weathered direct impacts from Hurricanes Isobel and Irene
( and a couple of nor'easters when it was out for refit for well over a
year) on 6 stands - though I personally made sure the stands were chained
together and sitting on largeish squares of 1/2" plywood intended to keep
the gravel under the stands from getting washed away by high water.


Rick Brass
Washington, NC




-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Collins
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:45 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat

At Mark's club (and mine) we do not have a travel lift.  So the options are
either:
1) use jackstands and go in/out with the big crane
2) buy a cradle, and be able to move with the cradle lift and launch with
the club crane

You have to remember also that where we are a bit further north than you we
end up having our boats out of the water about half the year normally.
Launch in early May, haul in October.  So a solid cradle is an asset.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2013-08-02 8:11 PM, Rick Brass wrote:

I wouldn't factor the cost of a cradle into the deal. As a matter of
practicality, why do you need one?

Does the yard where you would lay up the boat for the winter give you
a substantial discount for not using their cradle or stands? Do you
belong to a club that requires you to provide a cradle or stands (my
club in Philly did require this)?

If you need them, 6 new stands will be less than half the cost of a
new cradle - plus they are a lot easier to move and to store than a
cradle. And you can frequently find used ones for even less.

When I needed stands or a cradle to store my 25 (at the club I joined
in
Philly) I bought a used shipping cradle from a large boat dealer. It
was half the cost of new stands, and worked just fine. If I ever do
sell my 25, the cradle will be included with the boat - it hasn't been
used in over a decade and there is no market to sell one here in the

south.

Now a trailer does make some sense if you plan to store the boat at
home over the winter to save yard fees - and you have a truck big
enough to pull a 10,000 pound boat and trailer. But do a little
research before you plan on doing that. In one city where I lived, it
was OK to store a boat or RV (or empty trailer) in your drive, but it
had to be behind a line extended out from the front wall of the house
(and I did not have a suitable concrete pad next to the house on which
to put the boat I had, so it ended up in a yard anyway).

Rick Brass
Washington, NC



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Hoyt, Mike
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat

Cradle alone is 1500.



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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Rick Brass]

May thru October was about the same as Michigan, and Mid-April to
mid-October was the norm in Philly. 

I much prefer it down here when you only haul for maintenance or when you
need a bottom job - about every 3 or 4 years with good bottom paint.

The club I belonged to in Philly had an old travel lift trailer pulled by an
even older Oshkosh or Owatonna spotter truck. Most folks owned their own
jack stands, I purchased a cradle because a used shipping cradle was less
expensive than new stands - but it was a PITA to move around.

By "cradle lift" I presume you mean a big forklift capable of picking up
cradle and boat from the side? I am only familiar with the term as a type of
boat lift used to lift a boat out of the water at a dock or in a boat house.

In so far as a perception that a cradle is superior to stands, I can only
say that my 38 has weathered direct impacts from Hurricanes Isobel and Irene
( and a couple of nor'easters when it was out for refit for well over a
year) on 6 stands - though I personally made sure the stands were chained
together and sitting on largeish squares of 1/2" plywood intended to keep
the gravel under the stands from getting washed away by high water.


Rick Brass
Washington, NC




-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Collins
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:45 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat

At Mark's club (and mine) we do not have a travel lift.  So the options are
either:
1) use jackstands and go in/out with the big crane
2) buy a cradle, and be able to move with the cradle lift and launch with
the club crane

You have to remember also that where we are a bit further north than you we
end up having our boats out of the water about half the year normally.
Launch in early May, haul in October.  So a solid cradle is an asset.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2013-08-02 8:11 PM, Rick Brass wrote:
> I wouldn't factor the cost of a cradle into the deal. As a matter of 
> practicality, why do you need one?
>
> Does the yard where you would lay up the boat for the winter give you 
> a substantial discount for not using their cradle or stands? Do you 
> belong to a club that requires you to provide a cradle or stands (my 
> club in Philly did require this)?
>
> If you need them, 6 new stands will be less than half the cost of a 
> new cradle - plus they are a lot easier to move and to store than a 
> cradle. And you can frequently find used ones for even less.
>
> When I needed stands or a cradle to store my 25 (at the club I joined 
> in
> Philly) I bought a used shipping cradle from a large boat dealer. It 
> was half the cost of new stands, and worked just fine. If I ever do 
> sell my 25, the cradle will be included with the boat - it hasn't been 
> used in over a decade and there is no market to sell one here in the
south.
>
> Now a trailer does make some sense if you plan to store the boat at 
> home over the winter to save yard fees - and you have a truck big 
> enough to pull a 10,000 pound boat and trailer. But do a little 
> research before you plan on doing that. In one city where I lived, it 
> was OK to store a boat or RV (or empty trailer) in your drive, but it 
> had to be behind a line extended out from the front wall of the house 
> (and I did not have a suitable concrete pad next to the house on which 
> to put the boat I had, so it ended up in a yard anyway).
>
> Rick Brass
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
> Hoyt, Mike
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:49 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
>
> Cradle alone is 1500.
>
>
>
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>
>


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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Graham Collins]

At Mark's club (and mine) we do not have a travel lift.  So the options 
are either:

1) use jackstands and go in/out with the big crane
2) buy a cradle, and be able to move with the cradle lift and launch 
with the club crane


You have to remember also that where we are a bit further north than you 
we end up having our boats out of the water about half the year 
normally.  Launch in early May, haul in October.  So a solid cradle is 
an asset.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2013-08-02 8:11 PM, Rick Brass wrote:

I wouldn't factor the cost of a cradle into the deal. As a matter of
practicality, why do you need one?

Does the yard where you would lay up the boat for the winter give you a
substantial discount for not using their cradle or stands? Do you belong to
a club that requires you to provide a cradle or stands (my club in Philly
did require this)?

If you need them, 6 new stands will be less than half the cost of a new
cradle - plus they are a lot easier to move and to store than a cradle. And
you can frequently find used ones for even less.

When I needed stands or a cradle to store my 25 (at the club I joined in
Philly) I bought a used shipping cradle from a large boat dealer. It was
half the cost of new stands, and worked just fine. If I ever do sell my 25,
the cradle will be included with the boat - it hasn't been used in over a
decade and there is no market to sell one here in the south.

Now a trailer does make some sense if you plan to store the boat at home
over the winter to save yard fees - and you have a truck big enough to pull
a 10,000 pound boat and trailer. But do a little research before you plan on
doing that. In one city where I lived, it was OK to store a boat or RV (or
empty trailer) in your drive, but it had to be behind a line extended out
from the front wall of the house (and I did not have a suitable concrete pad
next to the house on which to put the boat I had, so it ended up in a yard
anyway).

Rick Brass
Washington, NC



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt,
Mike
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat

Cradle alone is 1500.



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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Rick Brass]

I wouldn't factor the cost of a cradle into the deal. As a matter of
practicality, why do you need one?

Does the yard where you would lay up the boat for the winter give you a
substantial discount for not using their cradle or stands? Do you belong to
a club that requires you to provide a cradle or stands (my club in Philly
did require this)? 

If you need them, 6 new stands will be less than half the cost of a new
cradle - plus they are a lot easier to move and to store than a cradle. And
you can frequently find used ones for even less.

When I needed stands or a cradle to store my 25 (at the club I joined in
Philly) I bought a used shipping cradle from a large boat dealer. It was
half the cost of new stands, and worked just fine. If I ever do sell my 25,
the cradle will be included with the boat - it hasn't been used in over a
decade and there is no market to sell one here in the south.

Now a trailer does make some sense if you plan to store the boat at home
over the winter to save yard fees - and you have a truck big enough to pull
a 10,000 pound boat and trailer. But do a little research before you plan on
doing that. In one city where I lived, it was OK to store a boat or RV (or
empty trailer) in your drive, but it had to be behind a line extended out
from the front wall of the house (and I did not have a suitable concrete pad
next to the house on which to put the boat I had, so it ended up in a yard
anyway).

Rick Brass
Washington, NC



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt,
Mike
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat

Cradle alone is 1500.  



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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Dennis C.]

24 was on sailingtexas.com.  Go there, use control F to bring up search field. 
Enter "C&C" in field, hit next. You'll find it towards the bottom. 

I'm walking piers in Biloxi while the admiral hits the slots. Just walked past 
a nice 24 registered in Guatemala, C.A. 

Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2013, at 3:17 PM, dwight veinot  wrote:

> Ron
> I hope you stay with your 30...hard to beat what it offers for sailing 
> performance and cruiseability...the 24 was nice for my second boat way back 
> when but if I already had a 30 like you do no way would I go back
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Ronald B. Frerker  wrote:
>> Dennis,
>> Do you have the link for the 24?  My wife thinks we should step down; I'm 
>> not so sure. I love my 30, find it quite roomy and sails just like you think 
>> it should; I believe the phrase is "good reflexes."
>> I've quelled the murmurings a bit by going to a 140% genoa instead of the 
>> 160 when it's just two of us.
>> Ron
>> Wild Cheri
>> C&C 30
>> STL
>> 
>> 
>> From: Dennis C. 
>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
>> 
>> More on owner pricing:  
>> 
>> Here's a 29-2 listed for $39,900:  
>> <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29105.html>
>> 
>> One for $14,500:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29106.html>
>> 
>> A 30 for $11,900:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc30106.html>
>> 
>> Saw a 24 for $2200.
>> 
>> Dennis C.
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[dwight veinot]

Ron
I hope you stay with your 30...hard to beat what it offers for sailing
performance and cruiseability...the 24 was nice for my second boat way back
when but if I already had a 30 like you do no way would I go back


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Ronald B. Frerker wrote:

> Dennis,
> Do you have the link for the 24?  My wife thinks we should step down; I'm
> not so sure. I love my 30, find it quite roomy and sails just like you
> think it should; I believe the phrase is "good reflexes."
> I've quelled the murmurings a bit by going to a 140% genoa instead of the
> 160 when it's just two of us.
> Ron
> Wild Cheri
> C&C 30
> STL
>
>
>   --
>  *From:* Dennis C. 
> *To:* "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> *Sent:* Friday, August 2, 2013 8:16 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Another boat
>
> More on owner pricing:
>
> Here's a 29-2 listed for $39,900:  <
> http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29105.html>
>
> One for $14,500:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29106.html>
>
> A 30 for $11,900:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc30106.html>
>
> Saw a 24 for $2200.
>
> Dennis C.
>
>
> ___
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> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Gary Nylander]

Ron, there is a 24 at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum listed for $3500. It 
was donated, has a full complement of equipment, a four stroke outboard, decent 
sails, spinnaker gear, etc. I sailed it across the Chesapeake and it performs 
well. Needs some cosmetics. It will be auctioned off over Labor Day (US) 
weekend and may not bring that much. Look it up on CBMM.org under donated 
boats. You can buy it earlier if you want to.

The owner got too old and his family ushered him off to a care facility. He 
left everything on the boat.

I may be able to get additional pictures.

Gary Nylander
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ronald B. Frerker 
  To: Dennis C. ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 3:43 PM
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat


  Dennis,
  Do you have the link for the 24?  My wife thinks we should step down; I'm not 
so sure. I love my 30, find it quite roomy and sails just like you think it 
should; I believe the phrase is "good reflexes."
  I've quelled the murmurings a bit by going to a 140% genoa instead of the 160 
when it's just two of us.
  Ron
  Wild Cheri
  C&C 30
  STL





--
  From: Dennis C. 
  To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
  Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:16 AM
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat



  More on owner pricing:  

  Here's a 29-2 listed for $39,900:  
<http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29105.html>

  One for $14,500:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29106.html>

  A 30 for $11,900:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc30106.html>

  Saw a 24 for $2200.

  Dennis C.


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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Ronald B. Frerker]

Dennis,
Do you have the link for the 24?  My wife thinks we should step down; I'm not 
so sure. I love my 30, find it quite roomy and sails just like you think it 
should; I believe the phrase is "good reflexes."
I've quelled the murmurings a bit by going to a 140% genoa instead of the 160 
when it's just two of us.
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30
STL




 From: Dennis C. 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
 


More on owner pricing:  

Here's a 29-2 listed for $39,900:  
<http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29105.html>

One for $14,500:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc29106.html>

A 30 for $11,900:  <http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scc30106.html>

Saw a 24 for $2200.

Dennis C.

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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Dennis C.]

More on owner pricing:  

Here's a 29-2 listed for $39,900:  


One for $14,500:  

A 30 for $11,900:  

Saw a 24 for $2200.

Dennis C.
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Re: Stus-List Another boat - broker vs owner

[Dennis C.]

Excellent assessment, Danny.


There's a Pearson 31 in my marina that sits idle.  I steered a friend of mine 
looking for a boat to the owner.  The guy was receptive to selling but his 
price was waaay out of line.  Chatting with the owner later, he told me he had 
just put a $4000 bottom job on it and had added that to the pricing he'd seen 
online, etc.  Totally unrealistic.  


Touche' wasn't for sale when I bought it.  I just noticed that it had been idle 
for 8 years.  I got the owners name from the marina manager, contacted him and 
worked the deal.  Fortunately, he was reasonable on price.

It's hard to find boats that might be available but not "officially" for sale.  
Because I work on boats and am around the marinas a lot, I could probably find 
some nice candidates.  I see lots of idled boats.  The dock fees are probably 
set up on automatic payments.  Out of sight, out of mind.  


Walk the piers.  Talk to owners, boat maintenance folks, marina managers, etc.  
They may suggest boats that can be purchased.

If you see a boat you like, ask if it's for sale.  No harm in asking.

Is Touche' for sale?  Absolutely!  Always.  But is it reasonably priced?  I 
doubt it.  :)


Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA





>
> From: "djhaug...@juno.com" 
>To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
>Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 7:15 AM
>Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
> 
>
>
>Mark,
>I doubt the guy is being deliberately dishonest about any of his descriptions. 
> He probably believes everything.  What I noticed as I shopped for a boat was 
>that most of the brokers were more upfront about condition than the owners 
>trying to sell on there own.  
> 
>Lets face it, we overlook things sometimes as "not so bad" because either we 
>would rather spend the boat bucks on something else, or it seems like too much 
>of a pain in the butt to deal with right now...whatever.  The point is we 
>convince ourselves that things are not as bad as they seem sometimes.  Now, 
>add to the mix that you want someone to buy your boat and you have a price 
>that you would like to get for it.  I think you are going to be even more 
>willing to overlook the condition of things.  After all, you first have to 
>convince yourself that your asking price is fair.
> 
>I must have looked 25 boats in my search over 2 years.  Almost non of the for 
>sale by owner boats were in the condition described.  I don't think any of 
>them, except one, were deliberately misrepresenting their boat.  In fact, I 
>pretty much liked all of them.  I think it was an emotional assessment that 
>led them to either not disclose something or overstate condition.
> 
>On the other hand, the brokers want to move boats.  They know an over priced 
>boat is going to sit and sit.  There is nothing in it for them to over price a 
>boat.  I had brokers tell me about blistering and soft spots right over the 
>phone.  they didn't want to waste their time meeting, showing, and opening up 
>a boat if it wasn't as described.  I walked away disappointed from for sale by 
>owner boats way more often than brokered boats.
> 
>I got to a point that if the description did not give the age of the sails, 
>they needed replaced.  It seemed that, if anyone bought sails within the 
>previous 12, or so, years, they listed the year they were purchased.  My 
>research made clear that sails are generally completely bagged out by 10 years 
>unless serviced and resewn.  Then 15 years might be your usable life.  Bagged 
>out sails really make for unexpected reactions to the wind.  If you are 
>looking at a reputedly tender boat, bagged out sails will certainly make it 
>WAY more tender.  It's the shape that goes, not the material.  I ended up 
>buying new sails for both of my boats and I'm glad I did.  New sails just 
>handle the wind and the gusts better.
> 
>Another thing I noticed was that broker listed boats, where the broker 
>actually returned calls, were, generally, more fairly priced.  I went out 
>hunting a few times because some of the un-returned calls were on boats that 
>looked great in the adds but, upon finding them on my own, I understood the 
>un-returned calls.
> 
>So, I just kept looking and looking and looking until something felt right.
> 
>Anyway, those are my insights and experiences. worth every bit of $0.02 
>American or Canadian or Australian for that matter, I think!
> 
>Danny
>Lolita
>1973 Viking 33
>Westport Point, MA
>
>___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Stevan Plavsa]

I think Danny's assessment of broker vs owner reflects my experience
exactly. In my case, the broker I was dealing with primarily dealt with
brand new boats and more recent models. The "old" C&C 32 was an oddity
there and I think the broker really wanted to move it because it didn't
represent a commission worth working too hard for. The seller's original
asking price was much higher and he lamented to me after the sale that he
paid $50k for the boat 8 years prior.

I avoided brokers because of my experience with used car lots. I learned
that the two are totally different.

Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:15 AM, djhaug...@juno.com wrote:

> Mark,
> I doubt the guy is being deliberately dishonest about any of his
> descriptions.  He probably believes everything.  What I noticed as I
> shopped for a boat was that most of the brokers were more upfront about
> condition than the owners trying to sell on there own.
>
> Lets face it, we overlook things sometimes as "not so bad" because either
> we would rather spend the boat bucks on something else, or it seems like
> too much of a pain in the butt to deal with right now...whatever.  The
> point is we convince ourselves that things are not as bad as they seem
> sometimes.  Now, add to the mix that you want someone to buy your boat and
> you have a price that you would like to get for it.  I think you are going
> to be even more willing to overlook the condition of things.  After all,
> you first have to convince yourself that your asking price is fair.
>
> I must have looked 25 boats in my search over 2 years.  Almost non of the
> for sale by owner boats were in the condition described.  I don't think any
> of them, except one, were deliberately misrepresenting their boat.  In
> fact, I pretty much liked all of them.  I think it was an emotional
> assessment that led them to either not
> disclose something or overstate condition.
>
> On the other hand, the brokers want to move boats.  They know an over
> priced boat is going to sit and sit.  There is nothing in it for them to
> over price a boat.  I had brokers tell me about blistering and soft spots
> right over the phone.  they didn't want to waste their time meeting,
> showing, and opening up a boat if it wasn't as described.  I walked away
> disappointed from for sale by owner boats way more often than brokered
> boats.
>
> I got to a point that if the description did not give the age of the
> sails, they needed replaced.  It seemed that, if anyone bought sails within
> the previous 12, or so, years, they listed the year they were purchased.
>  My research made clear that sails are generally completely bagged out by
> 10 years unless serviced and resewn.  Then 15 years might be
> your usable life.  Bagged out sails really make for unexpected reactions to
> the wind.  If you are looking at a reputedly tender boat, bagged out sails
> will certainly make it WAY more tender.  It's the shape that goes, not the
> material.  I ended up buying new sails for both of my boats and I'm glad I
> did.  New sails just handle the wind and the gusts better.
>
> Another thing I noticed was that broker listed boats, where the broker
> actually returned calls, were, generally, more fairly priced.  I went out
> hunting a few times because some of the un-returned calls were on boats
> that looked great in the adds but, upon finding them on my own, I
> understood the un-returned calls.
>
> So, I just kept looking and looking and looking until something felt right.
>
> Anyway, those are my insights and experiences. worth every bit of $0.02
> American or Canadian or Australian for that matter, I think!
>
> Danny
> Lolita
> 1973 Viking 33
> Westport Point, MA
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: Stevan Plavsa 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 23:36:04 -0400
>
> Keep looking and don't settle. I got my 32 for 18k, that's right in your
> ballpark. I was originally looking for 27s and 29s but I didn't find any
> that were reasonably priced or even in reasonable shape. I went to look at
> the 32 on a whim because it was the closest boat to me, and a broker boat
> no less .. something I'de been avoiding up to that point. I had driven to
> NY to look at boats on the south shore of Lake Ontario, not a complete
> waste of time because it helped me compare and understand the market
> better.�
>
> And you know what? The 32, literally 5 minutes from my house, was easily
> in way better shape than any of the boats I'de looked at up to that point.
> I was sold on it instantly. It was more boat than I hoped for and it was in
> reach. L

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[djhaug...@juno.com]

Mark,I doubt the guy is being deliberately dishonest about any of his 
descriptions.  He probably believes everything.  What I noticed as I shopped 
for a boat was that most of the brokers were more upfront about condition than 
the owners trying to sell on there own.   Lets face it, we overlook things 
sometimes as "not so bad" because either we would rather spend the boat bucks 
on something else, or it seems like too much of a pain in the butt to deal with 
right now...whatever.  The point is we convince ourselves that things are not 
as bad as they seem sometimes.  Now, add to the mix that you want someone to 
buy your boat and you have a price that you would like to get for it.  I think 
you are going to be even more willing to overlook the condition of things.  
After all, you first have to convince yourself that your asking price is fair. 
I must have looked 25 boats in my search over 2 years.  Almost non of the for 
sale by owner boats were in the condition described.  I don't think any of 
them, except one, were deliberately misrepresenting their boat.  In fact, I 
pretty much liked all of them.  I think it was an emotional assessment that led 
them to either not disclose something or overstate condition. On the other 
hand, the brokers want to move boats.  They know an over priced boat is going 
to sit and sit.  There is nothing in it for them to over price a boat.  I had 
brokers tell me about blistering and soft spots right over the phone.  they 
didn't want to waste their time meeting, showing, and opening up a boat if it 
wasn't as described.  I walked away disappointed from for sale by owner boats 
way more often than brokered boats. I got to a point that if the description 
did not give the age of the sails, they needed replaced.  It seemed that, if 
anyone bought sails within the previous 12, or so, years, they listed the year 
they were purchased.  My research made clear that sails are generally 
completely bagged out by 10 years unless serviced and resewn.  Then 15 years 
might be your usable life.  Bagged out sails really make for unexpected 
reactions to the wind.  If you are looking at a reputedly tender boat, bagged 
out sails will certainly make it WAY more tender.  It's the shape that goes, 
not the material.  I ended up buying new sails for both of my boats and I'm 
glad I did.  New sails just handle the wind and the gusts better. Another thing 
I noticed was that broker listed boats, where the broker actually returned 
calls, were, generally, more fairly priced.  I went out hunting a few times 
because some of the un-returned calls were on boats that looked great in the 
adds but, upon finding them on my own, I understood the un-returned calls. So, 
I just kept looking and looking and looking until something felt right. Anyway, 
those are my insights and experiences. worth every bit of $0.02 American or 
Canadian or Australian for that matter, I think! DannyLolita1973 Viking 
33Westport Point, MA

-- Original Message --
From: Stevan Plavsa 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 23:36:04 -0400


Keep looking and don't settle. I got my 32 for 18k, that's right in your 
ballpark. I was originally looking for 27s and 29s but I didn't find any that 
were reasonably priced or even in reasonable shape. I went to look at the 32 on 
a whim because it was the closest boat to me, and a broker boat no less .. 
something I'de been avoiding up to that point. I had driven to NY to look at 
boats on the south shore of Lake Ontario, not a complete waste of time because 
it helped me compare and understand the market better.� And you know 
what? The 32, literally 5 minutes from my house, was easily in way better shape 
than any of the boats I'de looked at up to that point. I was sold on it 
instantly. It was more boat than I hoped for and it was in reach. Life is short 
and I can be pretty impulsive so I made an offer, had it surveyed and bought 
the boat. I think the PO was happy to get the 18k and I think he was happy to 
deal with me, we got along great. Some other guy was in line before me but he 
was a huge hassle for the seller. I lucked out, the PO was a great guy. 
�I don't race so my requirements may be different than yours. My boat is 
a freshwater boat and it surveyed well. The sails were worn out and I just 
spent $1600 (shipping in!) all told on a genoa from Rolly Tasker, it's a great 
sail and an incredible value. The main is still usable and will be for a couple 
of years yet. Canvas is still good, not great, but doesn't need replacing.  
but I have spent a lot. I've spent money refurbishing the 
head/tanks/freshwater/wiring/instruments/stereo/solar and the list goes on. A 
boat that has had that stuff done is worth more, but then, if you do it 
yourself it's really YOUR boat. My boat is MY boat! I EARNED it because I fixed 
the shit

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Stevan Plavsa]

Keep looking and don't settle. I got my 32 for 18k, that's right in your
ballpark. I was originally looking for 27s and 29s but I didn't find any
that were reasonably priced or even in reasonable shape. I went to look at
the 32 on a whim because it was the closest boat to me, and a broker boat
no less .. something I'de been avoiding up to that point. I had driven to
NY to look at boats on the south shore of Lake Ontario, not a complete
waste of time because it helped me compare and understand the market
better.

And you know what? The 32, literally 5 minutes from my house, was easily in
way better shape than any of the boats I'de looked at up to that point. I
was sold on it instantly. It was more boat than I hoped for and it was in
reach. Life is short and I can be pretty impulsive so I made an offer, had
it surveyed and bought the boat. I think the PO was happy to get the 18k
and I think he was happy to deal with me, we got along great. Some other
guy was in line before me but he was a huge hassle for the seller. I lucked
out, the PO was a great guy.

 I don't race so my requirements may be different than yours. My boat is a
freshwater boat and it surveyed well. The sails were worn out and I just
spent $1600 (shipping in!) all told on a genoa from Rolly Tasker, it's a
great sail and an incredible value. The main is still usable and will be
for a couple of years yet. Canvas is still good, not great, but doesn't
need replacing.  but I have spent a lot. I've spent money refurbishing
the head/tanks/freshwater/wiring/instruments/stereo/solar and the list goes
on. A boat that has had that stuff done is worth more, but then, if you do
it yourself it's really YOUR boat. My boat is MY boat! I EARNED it because
I fixed the shit out of it!


Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto






On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Knowles Rich  wrote:

> How about having a peek at my LF 38 just to get another picture?
>
> Rich Knowles
> Indigo. LF 38
> Halifax NS
>
>
> On 2013-08-01, at 20:27, "Dr. Mark Bodnar"  wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments.
> >
> > Danny - Yes - I'm aware the "good condition" sails and the "year or 2"
> left in the canvas are pointing at need for replacement before long.  Guy
> selling the boat seems pretty straight, so I don't think he's over valuing
> the sails and they are totally shot.
> > As for the Nada value and the price - it is my understanding the NADA
> value is US based, boats locally list for a lot more than that.  Not much I
> can do other than buy a boat in the US and ship/sail it back.  As Mike
> noted - the cost of that adds up quickly.  Rough quote to ship a 30 back
> from NY was over $6000 by land.  I could have it sailed back for $2000, but
> I'd still have the expense of going down to look and having to pay for
> required repairs at a unfamiliar yard before it could sail home.
> >
> > Bob's example of a good condition 29 for $13500 - plus the cradle ends
> up being ~$15500. Then add the cost of getting it home (either I take a
> week off work or I pay to have it sailed back) - total $17-18000.  He
> likely has better sails but the price is pretty close in the end.
> >
> > In this case the boat has a pretty good trailer - value of ~ $2000,
> saving me the cost of buying a cradle.  Another 29-2 for sale locally is
> listed at $26000 with racing sails.  30's listed for $22-3 (at the
> cheaper end they are in rough shape, needing new sails and deck work).
> >
> > Having looked at this boat I think I'd be happy to get it for $17000 -
> but I doubt he'll sell it for that.  Maybe I'm off in my value because all
> the boat prices are listed so high and the actual selling prices are much
> lower.
> >
> > Stevan - I had my eye on a nice 32 - but it sold (apparently in
> brilliant shape and sold for ~$3).  I'd consider anything from a 29 to
> a 33.  Still trying to keep costs down (total purchase and up-keep) while
> finding a boat big enough to enjoy with the kids. 29 is the smallest I
> think that could work.  When I was on a 33 2weeks ago it seemed huge
> inside, yet not much more useable space.
> >
> > In the end my local options are limited and the prices are higher than
> areas with a lot more population.  I could buy cheaper but most seem to
> need more work.  I could travel, but that adds costs.  For a good looking
> boat that fits my needs and my eye, I'll pay a bit extra for ease of
> getting it local, but don't want to get fleeced.  Hopefully I can convince
> him that my price is fair, but I expect he'll think I'm low-balling.
> >
> > Thanks for the advice
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > -
> >  Dr. Mark Bodnar
> > B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
> > Bedford Chiropractic
> > www.bedfordchiro.ca
> > -
> >
> > There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
> >  - George Santayana
> >
> > On 01/08/2013 9:48 AM, Hoyt, Mike wrote:
> >> It will cost a lot more than 4000 to get the LIS boat to canada.  Cradle
> >> alone is 1500.  You will have 

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Knowles Rich]

How about having a peek at my LF 38 just to get another picture?  

Rich Knowles
Indigo. LF 38
Halifax NS


On 2013-08-01, at 20:27, "Dr. Mark Bodnar"  wrote:

> 
> Thanks for all the comments.
> 
> Danny - Yes - I'm aware the "good condition" sails and the "year or 2" left 
> in the canvas are pointing at need for replacement before long.  Guy selling 
> the boat seems pretty straight, so I don't think he's over valuing the sails 
> and they are totally shot.
> As for the Nada value and the price - it is my understanding the NADA value 
> is US based, boats locally list for a lot more than that.  Not much I can do 
> other than buy a boat in the US and ship/sail it back.  As Mike noted - the 
> cost of that adds up quickly.  Rough quote to ship a 30 back from NY was over 
> $6000 by land.  I could have it sailed back for $2000, but I'd still have the 
> expense of going down to look and having to pay for required repairs at a 
> unfamiliar yard before it could sail home.
> 
> Bob's example of a good condition 29 for $13500 - plus the cradle ends up 
> being ~$15500. Then add the cost of getting it home (either I take a week off 
> work or I pay to have it sailed back) - total $17-18000.  He likely has 
> better sails but the price is pretty close in the end.
> 
> In this case the boat has a pretty good trailer - value of ~ $2000, saving me 
> the cost of buying a cradle.  Another 29-2 for sale locally is listed at 
> $26000 with racing sails.  30's listed for $22-3 (at the cheaper end they 
> are in rough shape, needing new sails and deck work).
> 
> Having looked at this boat I think I'd be happy to get it for $17000 - but I 
> doubt he'll sell it for that.  Maybe I'm off in my value because all the boat 
> prices are listed so high and the actual selling prices are much lower.
> 
> Stevan - I had my eye on a nice 32 - but it sold (apparently in brilliant 
> shape and sold for ~$3).  I'd consider anything from a 29 to a 33.  Still 
> trying to keep costs down (total purchase and up-keep) while finding a boat 
> big enough to enjoy with the kids. 29 is the smallest I think that could 
> work.  When I was on a 33 2weeks ago it seemed huge inside, yet not much more 
> useable space.
> 
> In the end my local options are limited and the prices are higher than areas 
> with a lot more population.  I could buy cheaper but most seem to need more 
> work.  I could travel, but that adds costs.  For a good looking boat that 
> fits my needs and my eye, I'll pay a bit extra for ease of getting it local, 
> but don't want to get fleeced.  Hopefully I can convince him that my price is 
> fair, but I expect he'll think I'm low-balling.
> 
> Thanks for the advice
> Mark
> 
> 
> -
>  Dr. Mark Bodnar
> B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
> Bedford Chiropractic
> www.bedfordchiro.ca
> -
> 
> There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
>  - George Santayana
> 
> On 01/08/2013 9:48 AM, Hoyt, Mike wrote:
>> It will cost a lot more than 4000 to get the LIS boat to canada.  Cradle
>> alone is 1500.  You will have to ship the 29 by road and that will be
>> pricey.  The local boat is a serious bargain compared to the US one.
>> This is more true if the trailer is road worthy and not junk
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr.
>> Mark Bodnar
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:30 PM
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Subject: Stus-List Another boat
>> 
>> 
>> Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on
>> Sunday.
>> 
>> http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C
>> -C-29-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947
>> 
>> Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough
>> (needs a good sanding and new bottom coat).
>> 
>> The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min
>> drive home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming
>> the hoist can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
>> He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine
>> supposedly runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no
>> dimples or dings (although there is some minor damage at the stern where
>> 
>> someone likely backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a
>> bit rough (no mold but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover
>> reported to "have a year or 2 left in them", cushions ok (few years left
>> 
>> in fabric)
>> 
>> The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?
>> 
>> (I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to
>> sell a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long
>> way away, hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and
>> the fact that I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a
>> local boat for $4000 the price is pretty even)
>> 
>> NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
>> 

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Dr. Mark Bodnar]

Thanks for all the comments.

Danny - Yes - I'm aware the "good condition" sails and the "year or 2" 
left in the canvas are pointing at need for replacement before long.  
Guy selling the boat seems pretty straight, so I don't think he's over 
valuing the sails and they are totally shot.
As for the Nada value and the price - it is my understanding the NADA 
value is US based, boats locally list for a lot more than that.  Not 
much I can do other than buy a boat in the US and ship/sail it back.  As 
Mike noted - the cost of that adds up quickly.  Rough quote to ship a 30 
back from NY was over $6000 by land.  I could have it sailed back for 
$2000, but I'd still have the expense of going down to look and having 
to pay for required repairs at a unfamiliar yard before it could sail home.


Bob's example of a good condition 29 for $13500 - plus the cradle ends 
up being ~$15500. Then add the cost of getting it home (either I take a 
week off work or I pay to have it sailed back) - total $17-18000.  He 
likely has better sails but the price is pretty close in the end.


In this case the boat has a pretty good trailer - value of ~ $2000, 
saving me the cost of buying a cradle.  Another 29-2 for sale locally is 
listed at $26000 with racing sails.  30's listed for $22-3 (at the 
cheaper end they are in rough shape, needing new sails and deck work).


Having looked at this boat I think I'd be happy to get it for $17000 - 
but I doubt he'll sell it for that.  Maybe I'm off in my value because 
all the boat prices are listed so high and the actual selling prices are 
much lower.


Stevan - I had my eye on a nice 32 - but it sold (apparently in 
brilliant shape and sold for ~$3).  I'd consider anything from a 29 
to a 33.  Still trying to keep costs down (total purchase and up-keep) 
while finding a boat big enough to enjoy with the kids. 29 is the 
smallest I think that could work.  When I was on a 33 2weeks ago it 
seemed huge inside, yet not much more useable space.


In the end my local options are limited and the prices are higher than 
areas with a lot more population.  I could buy cheaper but most seem to 
need more work.  I could travel, but that adds costs.  For a good 
looking boat that fits my needs and my eye, I'll pay a bit extra for 
ease of getting it local, but don't want to get fleeced.  Hopefully I 
can convince him that my price is fair, but I expect he'll think I'm 
low-balling.


Thanks for the advice
Mark


-
  Dr. Mark Bodnar
B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
Bedford Chiropractic
www.bedfordchiro.ca
-

There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
  - George Santayana

On 01/08/2013 9:48 AM, Hoyt, Mike wrote:

It will cost a lot more than 4000 to get the LIS boat to canada.  Cradle
alone is 1500.  You will have to ship the 29 by road and that will be
pricey.  The local boat is a serious bargain compared to the US one.
This is more true if the trailer is road worthy and not junk

Mike

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr.
Mark Bodnar
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:30 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Another boat


Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on
Sunday.

http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C
-C-29-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947

Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough
(needs a good sanding and new bottom coat).

The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min
drive home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming
the hoist can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine
supposedly runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no
dimples or dings (although there is some minor damage at the stern where

someone likely backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a
bit rough (no mold but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover
reported to "have a year or 2 left in them", cushions ok (few years left

in fabric)

The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?

(I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to
sell a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long
way away, hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and
the fact that I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a
local boat for $4000 the price is pretty even)

NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
-
Also - Thinking of looking at a Cal 9.2, 1982, listed at $2
http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Cal-
9-2-Sailboat-Price-Reduced-W0QQAdIdZ493465591
(NADA value at $13800)
Plus another Cal 9.2 listed at $15K (but no pictures).

Any thoughts?  I'm not familiar with the Cal boats.  Reading online the
comments are that the Cal is more tender and that the diesel 

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Marek Dziedzic]

I fully agree that a local boat has substantial advantage; however, my 
experience shows that you can bring a boat to Canada from the USA for about 
$3000 (within ~2500 miles, which covers most of the continental US). Of course, 
add at least $500 to $1500 (or more) for additional expoenses (going there 
yourself, having someone do the survey for you, decommissioning the boat far 
away etc. etc.).

Marek
in Ottawa___
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Re: Stus-List Another Boat - 29 mark 2

[Gary Nylander]

The 30-1 is one of the stiffest boats C&C ever built. It needs some air to 
excel. We have been sailing PHRF for 19 years and it goes very well - not so 
good in real light air, but will hold its own against other racer/cruisers, 
not so well against light weight smaller boats. In heavier stuff it goes 
very well up to about 20 apparent with a 155, up to 25 with a 140. All I 
have which is smaller is a working jib (not much heavy air around here) so I 
am not to good with it, I'm sure others who have breezier conditions can 
comment on that.


We have collected our fair share of hardware.

Gary
#593
Chesapeake Bay
- Original Message - 
From: "Curtis" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another Boat - 29 mark 2


Is the C&C30 MK1 know as a tender boat?
What kind of air is best for this boat?  How does she handle in strong
puff's? Will she go under light conditions?

Does anybody have experiance with the sailing Performance and the best
head sails to use 110% 135% 155%
Thanks for your help.
Just learning the ropes and trying to get ready for some Fall sailing...


Thanks Capt, Burt


On 8/1/13, Bob Hickson  wrote:

Mark

The comments made by others are right on regarding the price for the 29-2.
I bought a comparable 29-2 in NJ last spring for $13,500 (asking was
$15,000).
I brought it from NJ to Toronto via the Hudson / Erie Canal to avoid
shipping charges.
A new, 6 pad cradle was $1,650 CDN.

The comments about the 29 being a "tender boat" are more related to the 29
mark 1. Mark 1's have to reduce sail early to avoid being overpowered. I
have sailed them and as long as you adjust the sail area by furling the
genoa / reefing the main they are fine. The mark 1 is a much bigger boat 
at

29' 10" and it has a nav station.

The 29 mark 2 is a totally different design than the mark 1. It is a small
29 with a LOA of 28' 6" and it does not have a  nav station (who needs one
with chartplotters). The boat handles high, gusty winds on Lake Ontario
with
no problems. I have yet to get wet in the cockpit or bury the rail. The
boat
is initially somewhat "tender" but once she heels, she stiffens up 
quickly.

Again as long as you reduce sail accordingly as the wind builds the boat
will handle anything that the Lake can throw at it. I race the boat at a
Wednesday night Club level where we do reasonably well. I need a new genoa
(genoa on the boat was ~ 10 years old; Main was about 2 years; like new
cruising chute at time of purchase) to improve performance if racing

All said, I love this boat.
Small enough to single hand or handle with a small crew yet spacious 
enough

to do some cruising.


Best regards,
Bob Hickson, P. Eng, RHI, CEA
C&C 29-2 Flying Colours
Frenchman's Bay Yacht Club
Pickering, ON
(416) 919-2297
bobhick...@rogers.com

 __/) 

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com
Sent: August-01-13 9:43 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: CnC-List Digest, Vol 91, Issue 1

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (Frederick G Street)
   2. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (Hoyt, Mike)
   3. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (Chris Price)
   4. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (Nate Flesness)
   5. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (djhaug...@juno.com)
   6. Re:  terrorized a buy boat (Della Barba, Joe)
   7.  Lock combinations (Dennis C.)
   8.  Opening port manufacturer (TOM VINCENT)
   9. Re:  Lock combinations (Della Barba, Joe)
  10.  Another boat (Dr. Mark Bodnar)
  11. Re:  Another boat (Stevan Plavsa)
  12. Re:  Another boat (djhaug...@juno.com)
  13. Re:  Another boat (Steve Thomas)
  14. Re:  Another boat (Richard N. Bush)
  15. Re:  Another boat (Hoyt, Mike)
  16.  FOR SALE: Winter cover for a 33-1 (A. F. Cano)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 11:00:17 -0500
From: Frederick G Street 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List terrorized a buy boat
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Joe, -- I'm trying hard not to display total ignorance, but what's a "buy
boat"?

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Jul 31, 2013, at 9:39 AM, "Della Barba, Joe" 
wrote:


After work we went up to CRYC to retrieve my boat and I pointed out the

buy boat Wi

Re: Stus-List Another Boat - 29 mark 2

[Curtis]

4d9a960e45a7189c6de...@hq-mb-07.ba.ad.ssa.gov>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> When I used to have a list of about 50 combos they were at LEAST 2/3s 19xx.
>
> Joe Della Barba
>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
> C.
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:04 PM
> To: Cn Clist
> Subject: Stus-List Lock combinations
>
> I work on a lot of boats.  I recommend to my clients that they use a
> combination lock so boat workers or persons responding to a problem can get
> into the boat easily.
>
> OK, that made it sailing related.  Here's a very interesting article on
> PIN's and combinations.
>
> <http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/september32012/>
>
> Note the part about PIN's starting with 19xx.  Half the boats I work on
> have
> combos that start with 19xx.
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20130731/da
> c7733c/attachment-0001.html>
>
> --
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 22:30:25 -0300
> From: "Dr. Mark Bodnar" 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Stus-List Another boat
> Message-ID: <51f9ba31.8020...@accesswave.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on
> Sunday.
>
> http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C-C-2
> 9-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947
>
> Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough (needs a
> good sanding and new bottom coat).
>
> The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min drive
> home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming the hoist
> can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
> He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine supposedly
> runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no dimples or dings
> (although there is some minor damage at the stern where someone likely
> backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a bit rough (no mold
> but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover reported to "have a year or 2
> left in them", cushions ok (few years left in fabric)
>
> The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?
>
> (I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to sell
> a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long way away,
> hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and the fact that
> I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a local boat for
> $4000
> the price is pretty even)
>
> NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
> -
> Also - Thinking of looking at a Cal 9.2, 1982, listed at $2
> http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Cal-9-2-
> Sailboat-Price-Reduced-W0QQAdIdZ493465591
> (NADA value at $13800)
> Plus another Cal 9.2 listed at $15K (but no pictures).
>
> Any thoughts?  I'm not familiar with the Cal boats.  Reading online the
> comments are that the Cal is more tender and that the diesel is raw water
> cooled (which can lead to more issues as they age). Overall online comments
> are not positive - seems the design may play to the worst parts of the IOR
> rules. Also some negative comments about decks etc.
>
> I don't want a poorly behaved boat that I can't manage in gusty winds or
> something that will ruin sailing for the kids --- maybe I'm answering my
> own
> thoughts on the Cal? Can't say I like the way the pinched rear end looks
> either!
>
> Any thoughts appreciated,
> Mark
>
> --
>
> -
>Dr. Mark Bodnar
> B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
> Bedford Chiropractic
> www.bedfordchiro.ca
> -
>
> There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
>- George Santayana
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 08:22:17 -0400
> From: Stevan Plavsa 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Are you set on the 29? I'm biased, but I was considering the 29 as well and
> the 32 offered more boat for (typically) the same money. I'm under the
> impression that the 29 is a tender boat.
>
> Steve
> Suhana, C&C 32
> Toronto
> -- next p

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Pat Nevitt]

Ok my 2 cents. I owned a 29-2 for 4 years and just sold it last November. The 
boat is not overly tender like the 29-1 if you sail it well balanced. It likes 
15 degrees of heel.  I could sail it with 2 people in 16-17 kts with 2 people 
close hauled and take my hands off the wheel and let her fly for 5 min without 
touching the wheel. 

 In 2 years I did the following to mine:  bottom striped and new burnished race 
bottom applied; all new TackTick instruments; all new running rigging; new 
folding prop; all new Spinlock rope clutches (8); refinished floors; new 
batteries; new North Radian main; new 3DL #1; new curtains; all new main cover 
and wheel cover; new upgraded traveler; new GPS and backup depth finder; new 
graphics; all new lightweight spinnaker gear; carbon spin pole; etc.  In the 
end the boat was very well appointed and fast. It was a nice boat to start 
with; I made it better. I asked $19k US for it and got $17.5.  I had a lot more 
than that in it but felt it was market correct. 

If you put decent sails on it the main will run about $2500 and a nice North 
3DL #1 will set you back $3200. Of course if you don't plan on racing it, you 
can get by for less. 

The reality is, the 29-2 is a small 29 footer but has good space down below but 
a slightly cramped cockpit. For comparison I would look at an S-2 9.1 that is a 
large 30 footer and rates 45 seconds faster. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:48 AM, "Hoyt, Mike"  wrote:

> It will cost a lot more than 4000 to get the LIS boat to canada.  Cradle
> alone is 1500.  You will have to ship the 29 by road and that will be
> pricey.  The local boat is a serious bargain compared to the US one.
> This is more true if the trailer is road worthy and not junk
> 
> Mike 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr.
> Mark Bodnar
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:30 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Stus-List Another boat
> 
> 
> Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on 
> Sunday.
> 
> http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C
> -C-29-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947
> 
> Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough 
> (needs a good sanding and new bottom coat).
> 
> The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min 
> drive home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming 
> the hoist can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
> He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine 
> supposedly runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no 
> dimples or dings (although there is some minor damage at the stern where
> 
> someone likely backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a 
> bit rough (no mold but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover 
> reported to "have a year or 2 left in them", cushions ok (few years left
> 
> in fabric)
> 
> The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?
> 
> (I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to 
> sell a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long 
> way away, hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and 
> the fact that I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a 
> local boat for $4000 the price is pretty even)
> 
> NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
> -
> Also - Thinking of looking at a Cal 9.2, 1982, listed at $2
> http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Cal-
> 9-2-Sailboat-Price-Reduced-W0QQAdIdZ493465591
> (NADA value at $13800)
> Plus another Cal 9.2 listed at $15K (but no pictures).
> 
> Any thoughts?  I'm not familiar with the Cal boats.  Reading online the 
> comments are that the Cal is more tender and that the diesel is raw 
> water cooled (which can lead to more issues as they age). Overall online
> 
> comments are not positive - seems the design may play to the worst parts
> 
> of the IOR rules. Also some negative comments about decks etc.
> 
> I don't want a poorly behaved boat that I can't manage in gusty winds or
> 
> something that will ruin sailing for the kids --- maybe I'm answering my
> 
> own thoughts on the Cal? Can't say I like the way the pinched rear end 
> looks either!
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated,
> Mark
> 
> -- 
> 
> -
>   Dr. Mark Bodnar
> B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
> Bedford Chiropractic
> www.bedfordchiro.ca
> -
> 
> There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
>   - George Santayana
> 
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com

___
This List i

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Hoyt, Mike]

It will cost a lot more than 4000 to get the LIS boat to canada.  Cradle
alone is 1500.  You will have to ship the 29 by road and that will be
pricey.  The local boat is a serious bargain compared to the US one.
This is more true if the trailer is road worthy and not junk

Mike 

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr.
Mark Bodnar
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:30 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Another boat


Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on 
Sunday.

http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C
-C-29-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947

Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough 
(needs a good sanding and new bottom coat).

The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min 
drive home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming 
the hoist can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine 
supposedly runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no 
dimples or dings (although there is some minor damage at the stern where

someone likely backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a 
bit rough (no mold but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover 
reported to "have a year or 2 left in them", cushions ok (few years left

in fabric)

The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?

(I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to 
sell a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long 
way away, hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and 
the fact that I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a 
local boat for $4000 the price is pretty even)

NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
-
Also - Thinking of looking at a Cal 9.2, 1982, listed at $2
http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Cal-
9-2-Sailboat-Price-Reduced-W0QQAdIdZ493465591
(NADA value at $13800)
Plus another Cal 9.2 listed at $15K (but no pictures).

Any thoughts?  I'm not familiar with the Cal boats.  Reading online the 
comments are that the Cal is more tender and that the diesel is raw 
water cooled (which can lead to more issues as they age). Overall online

comments are not positive - seems the design may play to the worst parts

of the IOR rules. Also some negative comments about decks etc.

I don't want a poorly behaved boat that I can't manage in gusty winds or

something that will ruin sailing for the kids --- maybe I'm answering my

own thoughts on the Cal? Can't say I like the way the pinched rear end 
looks either!

Any thoughts appreciated,
Mark

-- 

-
   Dr. Mark Bodnar
B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
Bedford Chiropractic
www.bedfordchiro.ca
-

There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
   - George Santayana


___
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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

___
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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Richard N. Bush]

I agree with earlier comments about the 29 pricing and Danny's insights about 
the sails and perils of "boat shopping", (there's a whole other topic right 
there!). But don't discount the 29; its a fast boat and will move in light air; 
point like nobody else out there and is not too difficult to maintain.  If its 
in good shape overall, plan on buying the new sails and go sailing!
 


Richard
1987 33-II ( and former 29 owner); Ohio River, Mile 584


Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
235 South Fifth Street, Fourth Floor 
Louisville, Kentucky 40202 
502-584-7255



-Original Message-
From: Stevan Plavsa 
To: cnc-list 
Sent: Thu, Aug 1, 2013 8:22 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat



Are you set on the 29? I'm biased, but I was considering the 29 as well and the 
32 offered more boat for (typically) the same money. I'm under the impression 
that the 29 is a tender boat.


Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto


___
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___
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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Steve Thomas]

I can think of one advantage.
With a 29 you don't have to pay for a cruising permit to visit the United 
States.

Steve Thomas
C&C27 MKIII
Port Stanley

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Stevan Plavsa
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:22 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat


Are you set on the 29? I'm biased, but I was considering the 29 as well and the 
32 offered more boat for (typically) the same
money. I'm under the impression that the 29 is a tender boat.


Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto
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Re: Stus-List Another boat

[djhaug...@juno.com]

Hello Dr. Mark,

I looked at a couple of Cal 29s in my search.  What put me off them was some 
articles I found about a steel beam that has a tenancy to corrode away, between 
the sole and the hull.  There is a great deal of fiberglass work to get at it 
and repair it.  I believe its function was as a mast step support.

There is (or was) a pretty good website out there where a guy documented the 
repair really well.

I'm wondering though, what is it that makes the local C&C worth 50% more than 
the NADA value.  "a year or 2" left on the canvass?  that sounds like end of 
life to me.  The sails are in "good shape?"  How old are they?  I've heard 
these terms in my search and it always turned out to be an exaggeration on 
condition.  You need to go in thinking you need new sails and canvass unless 
you know how old the sails are or you can see for yourself what condition the 
canvass is in.

My boat has, last year, brand new sails, canvass, motor, standing rigging etc. 
etc. etc...  I think I'd be lucky to get $22,500 for it.  I only had the boat 
out 6 times last year and brought the canvass and sails to the sail loft for 
inspection, repair and storage.  I could not believe the things that needed 
done.  There were signs of chafing already and they reinforced those areas.

Sails take a beating, assume the worst, there is probably $2500 - $4000 right 
there.  If this guy had his sails serviced every year, he would have said that.

It's still a buyer's market out there.  Sounds like a pretty steep price tag to 
me...

Danny
Lolita
1973 Viking 33
Westport Point, MA


-- Original Message --
From: "Dr. Mark Bodnar" 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Another boat
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 22:30:25 -0300



Seriously looking at another boat.  Checked out a local C&C 29 mkII on 
Sunday.

http://novascotia.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-C-C-29-MK-II-W0QQAdIdZ474384947

Overall the boat looked good.  The paint job on the hull was rough 
(needs a good sanding and new bottom coat).

The boat is on a trailer - which makes it easier to move the 90 min 
drive home, and the trailer allows for easier yard management (assuming 
the hoist can get the boat high enough to put it to bed).
He reports the sails in "good shape" (but no spinnaker), engine 
supposedly runs well (not in water to test), hull looks good with no 
dimples or dings (although there is some minor damage at the stern where 
someone likely backed into a slip too hard), teak and holly sole is a 
bit rough (no mold but finish is beat up), dodger and sail cover 
reported to "have a year or 2 left in them", cushions ok (few years left 
in fabric)

The seller is asking $22500.  Maybe offer $17000-18000 firm?

(I have had a few emails with a new list member, Bob Dryer, looking to 
sell a C&C 29 II in Long Island sound for $14500 --- but that's a long 
way away, hard to look at the boat plus the cost of getting it back and 
the fact that I'd have to buy a cradle - all together, if I can get a 
local boat for $4000 the price is pretty even)

NADA average value of a 1983 C&C 29 II is $13000
-
Also - Thinking of looking at a Cal 9.2, 1982, listed at $2
http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-Cal-9-2-Sailboat-Price-Reduced-W0QQAdIdZ493465591
(NADA value at $13800)
Plus another Cal 9.2 listed at $15K (but no pictures).

Any thoughts?  I'm not familiar with the Cal boats.  Reading online the 
comments are that the Cal is more tender and that the diesel is raw 
water cooled (which can lead to more issues as they age). Overall online 
comments are not positive - seems the design may play to the worst parts 
of the IOR rules. Also some negative comments about decks etc.

I don't want a poorly behaved boat that I can't manage in gusty winds or 
something that will ruin sailing for the kids --- maybe I'm answering my 
own thoughts on the Cal? Can't say I like the way the pinched rear end 
looks either!

Any thoughts appreciated,
Mark

-- 

-
   Dr. Mark Bodnar
B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C)
Bedford Chiropractic
www.bedfordchiro.ca
-

There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval.
   - George Santayana


___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Another boat

[Stevan Plavsa]

Are you set on the 29? I'm biased, but I was considering the 29 as well and
the 32 offered more boat for (typically) the same money. I'm under the
impression that the 29 is a tender boat.

Steve
Suhana, C&C 32
Toronto
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