Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
So I'm supposed to go to some guys blog otherwise I can't complain? I thought that's why I voted in real elections, not put some topics up on a blog? You think your responsibilities begin and end with your casting a vote? Do these 'responsibilities' involve something about how it's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut? Well then just say Baa. Just who is saying baaa? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
On Dec 1, 2008, at 1:26 PM, Larry Sacks wrote: Well then just say Baa. Just who is saying baaa? The Simpson's TV show was running their episode yesterday spoofing and poking fun at Apple Corp., Apple users, Steve Mobs and all things Apple and Macintosh. Pretty damn funny stuff and good parts of it were spot on. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I see you did not read my entire response. How convenient. Convenient? Like...WAL-MART? And don't forget their low, low prices! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
http://gizmodo.com/5090988/mobile-browser-battlemodo-which-phones-deliver-the-real-web A good if not anecdotal article about the world of mobile web. The results in this test aren't surprising with iPhone's browsing at the top and IE for WM at the bottom. Anyone who has used WM with IE knows it's akin to having your eyes scratched out by a wombat. The more interesting bits are the phones in between iPhone and WM, this might be of use to those about to pick a new phone. Mike * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
So you have a crystal ball and it tells you they will judge the other way. The difference is in our position, not our process in reaching a conclusion. Perhaps out of pessimism you've chosen the side of big business as the winner. I'm not saying EFF will win the case, I'm advocating who I think should win with what facts we know now. On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually that's you. The iTunes database file isn't part of the DMCA...at least that's the argument put forth. The difference is you are on the side of the guys in suits with the big stick beating us all up. Big surprise the guys with the clubs are Apple and you agree with them. The argument you cite is the one that EFF says they are going to make to the judge. Maybe you think you have a crystal ball that tells you how the judge will rule, but until there is a definitive ruling in the real world the topic is out of bounds. Most people do not skirt the law, especially in areas that are known to be litigation prone. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
How do you know what other people know, or don't know? How do you know what you know and how do you know it is correct? Do you think you've somehow managed to discover that one thing that everyone else has missed that refutes the entire theory of comparative advantage? In lalaland instead of discussing issues head on we ask bizarre metaphysical questions about what the meaning of is is. Yes it is true, I have no way to know that you really exist. You could be one big nightmarish hallucination. I don't accept your view because it does not lead to anything useful and I don't think your asking the question is anything more that a cheap debating tactic, which wastes all our time. It is as simple as that. We know what we know about consumer behavior through many years of behavioral research and continuing observation. From this we have learned that sheepherding is easy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart and corporations like that don't want you to have freedom of choice. They simply want to lie, and steal from you. Does the DMCA require proper labeling of electronic entertainment media? Nope. Debased products are rarely marked as such. The notices on movies on TV and airlines are there only because the filmmakers insisted on it. iTunes usually lists two versions, marked clean and explicit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
That is very similar to radio version and explicit. A radio version is one that passes the FCC test for language. Remember George Carlin's seven words? You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you cannot pick your friends nose. Stewart At 10:11 AM 11/29/2008, you wrote: Nope. Debased products are rarely marked as such. The notices on movies on TV and airlines are there only because the filmmakers insisted on it. iTunes usually lists two versions, marked clean and explicit. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I don't accept your view because it does not lead to anything useful and I don't think your asking the question is anything more that a cheap debating tactic, which wastes all our time. It is as simple as that. Asking questions is now a cheap debating tactic? Is your worldview so tenuous that it crumbles when exposed to the merest of inquiries? You don't accept it because it doesn't accept your ridiculous claims of psychic knowledge of other people's knowledge, intents and actions, when, in fact, you are simply pulling things out from your ass to support your own conclusions. It doesn't get any cheaper than that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
We still have two local dairy queens, and a smatering of other stores... Why do Dairy Queens seem to thrive only in small southern towns? Evey time I have reason to drive through the Carolinas, I look forward to spotting the first exit with a Dairy Queen, so I can get a Blizzard along with filling my gas tank :-) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
We have em all over Arizona too. On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We still have two local dairy queens, and a smatering of other stores... Why do Dairy Queens seem to thrive only in small southern towns? Evey time I have reason to drive through the Carolinas, I look forward to spotting the first exit with a Dairy Queen, so I can get a Blizzard along with filling my gas tank :-) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Tom; The issue here is freedom of two business corporations (or a corporation and individual in the rare case of the unincorporated artist significant enough to warrant space on the shelves) to contract. No one would dream of telling a store they must sell a particular pattern or wallpaper, or a particular book or movie. Neither would it be acceptable for the government to tell an artist that they must make wallpaper, books, or movies to a specific artistic standard. A store is free to sell (subject to health and safety rules, etc.) what in their opinion will allow them to maximize profits, or to choose to not maximize profits where such would conflict with a more important (to the store) goal (which see Chick Fil'A which will not open on Sundays). An artist is free to produce and sell, in one or multiple versions, a work of art for whatever motivates them. It could be profit, it could be a desire to spread a message, it could be pure ego. In the case of Wal-mart, two parties strike a deal for what one will sell via the other. If either is not satisfied, they are free to seek other partners. Regarding Newspapers and such, sure, Wal-mart can tell the Washington post to produce a stress free fish wrap. The Post is free to stay no and decline to sell via Wal-mart. They are not free to demand that Wal-mart carry their fish wrap as is. For the record, I do not support the notion of corporate personhood. I think a corporate entity should have no rights other than, and all rights that adhere to, the individuals comprising the corporate entity. I don't think you and I together should either loose or gain rights should we act in concert. Matthew On Nov 26, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. I think you mix up freedom for people vs freedom for corporations. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the radical right is the belief that corporations should have the same rights as individuals. It leads to individual rights getting trampled because the powers of corporations are so much greater. Allowing Walmart to censor video content is one example. If Walmart is allowed to do that, what is to stop them from telling newspapers what stories they are allowed to cover and what their editorials should be? E.g. We don't want news about the /war/poor economy/greedy corporations/ to upset our customers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
As long as they are authorized by the artists they are legit. Many artists release more than one version of a recorded work, be it music, video, whatever. Any deception if it exists is on the part of the artist. Matthew On Nov 26, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Richard P. wrote: Are the edited versions indicated as such or are they passed off as the real and original recording? If the edited versions are being passed off as original, then that is deception. Richard P. Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Ahh, so dismissive of Palin's people. If you don't know what it's like to live in a community where a Wal-Mart forces the closing of many of the local businesses, then stick with something you might know something about. Either those local stores were providing value to their customers or they weren't. If they were, then they should still be in business. It's not magic. As a rule in my job, I stay away from the large multi-national companies for vendors, unless there is no real option. I buy small and local for my services and consulting. To these businesses, I'm a real person, not just a number in a massive database. The owners of the small consulting business I use know me personally and take an interest in my operations. I shop at a small grocery store in my area, Sniders and eschew Giant and Safeway as much as possible. Sniders is family owned and well run. They have local high school kids that bag and help you out to the car. The store is small and they don't carry everything I need, but I like shopping there, as they provide value to me. If their prices were substantially higher than the larger stores (they're usually significantly lower) and the store not as well run, I wouldn't bother with them. I generally don't like shopping at Wal-Mart as I find their stores to be shabby and dirty and not particularly well stocked; lots of holes on the shelves. They're good for kid's clothing, but not much else. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart did not drive anyone anywhere. What has happened is that in many small communities the merchants have been so used to doing what they please they were not ready to compete against Walmart. Giant Food and their local union, UFCW 400, colluded few years back to have the Monkey County, MD county council pass a law outlawing some of their competition. They obviously greased enough palms to make sure that no store with greater than 100,000 square feet is able to open and sell groceries in the county. Oddly, Wal-Mart, a notoriously non-union store, was the only chain at the time to be affected. But, we get to pay more for our groceries, as a result, just the same. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Giant Food and their local union, UFCW 400, colluded few years back to have the Monkey County, MD county council pass a law outlawing some of their competition. They obviously greased enough palms to make sure that no store with greater than 100,000 square feet is able to open and sell groceries in the county. Many communities view a store greater than 100,000 square feet with the same enthusiasm as they would view a toxic waste dump. (And some communities think a toxic waste dump would be just fine.) What a huge greedy corporation can do is give you close to zero options as they undermine the local and national economy. They pay a sub-living wage and require their poor workers to work additional unpaid hours off the books. They don't provide realistic health insurance so local hospitals are flooded with the very sick uninsured. This also stresses community health services and burdens local governments. That raises your taxes. Meanwhile they don't pay taxes because they were granted tax concessions based on their false claims of good jobs and prosperity (after the concessions end they close the store and move to another town). They buy almost everything from China, causing US manufacturers to close and putting US workers out of work. They sell shoddy goods that wear out way too quickly, making them a poor buy even at their low price. They poison our children with toxic chemicals in toys and in food. There's more. I'm just tired of typing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
What's this nonsense about servitude and morality? Some people find corporate greed and abuse to be a desirable quality. I just read that managers at some Swiss banks are giving back bonuses they received in previous years because it is now clear they were undeserved. What a concept! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Either those local stores were providing value to their customers or they weren't. If they were, then they should still be in business. It's not magic. The problem us that buyers don't have full knowledge of what they are buying and what the true value of that product is. They don't know that it will wear out very quickly. They don't know that it contains toxic chemicals that will poison them. They don't know that it contains protein subsituites that have no nutrutional value and may even be toxic. They don't know that the merchant pays no local taxes. They don't know that the merchant shifts many of its costs to the local community. They don't know about the US jobs that have been lost due to the actions of that merchant. They don't know that it drives up the balance of payments and makes the dollar weak. They don't know about the energy burned and the pollution caused by shipping the goods from very far away. Etc, etc. They don't know that what they are buying at that store is really very, very expensive. As a rule in my job, I stay away from the large multi-national companies for vendors, unless there is no real option. I commend the rest of what you wrote. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
There is no DRM on the library, try again, Tom. You are just making up stuff to keep an argument going? Wasting everyone's time? http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/apple-and -the-digital-rights-management-debate-1039564.html As a way of protecting the link between iPods, iPhones and the iTunes music store databases stored on those devices, Apple began employing a hashing algorithm late last year which masked transactions between a device's database and the music store. It meant iPods could only conduct transactions through iTunes using Apple's software. All fine, as iTunes is available free for Mac and PC - but there's no version for Linux. The iTunesDB file is the database index that iPod operating systems use to keep track of what playable media is on the device. Unless an application can write new data to this file, it can't sync music (or other content) to iPods, and this is what the hash prevented. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I don't think you and I together should either loose or gain rights should we act in concert. You have blinders on. My corporation challenges you (individual) to a total cage fighting match. I, as a corporation, will have my staff with me. That's the problem. It is a highly asymmetric situation being regulated as if the situation were symmetric. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
The problem us that buyers don't have full knowledge of what they are buying and what the true value of that product is. They don't know that it will wear out very quickly. How do you know what other people know, or don't know? How do you know what you know and how do you know it is correct? Do you think you've somehow managed to discover that one thing that everyone else has missed that refutes the entire theory of comparative advantage? Either your Magic 8-Ball is extra magic or you simply think that everyone else is quite stupid. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
When Apple sells something at the iTunes store, they tell you up front that it has DRM. Walmart doesn't label their music or movies to tell you that there are significant parts missing from the products. You don't know until the package is open and not returnable. Does Apple really tell you that or do you have to dig to find out that info? I ask this seriously having never bought anything from iTunes. Does it present a box that says briefly states that music you are buying is crippled (in so many words) or is buried in an ULA? Apple sells its iTunes music in a protected format, unless you buy the DRM-free iTunes Plus versions. Terms of Service/Sale links explaining this in detail can be found at the bottom of the iTunes store pages. If you don't read that or articles about iTunes, that's your problem. At least the information is there. OTOH, Walmart doesn't label the discs they sell in the store as being different from those sold a legit stores like FYE or Sam Goody. I like the local independent stores when they can survive. Walmart is the kind of store that moved into my town, which had enough healthy stores that had been serving the community for some time, and sold their goods below cost for well over a year. Few business can compete with stores that can afford to lose money for several years until the competition goes out of business, but that's Walmart's business plan. Then Walmart sells inferior, improperly labeled goods at higher prices, since there's few left to compete, plus they get tax breaks, and their employees get state medical aid and food stamps because their wages are too low to live on. Honest businesses can't compete with that, so we're stuck with two Walmarts and not much else. Now we have to drive to Delaware to shop to avoid Walmart. It's a very bad company. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Hey, had you been paying attention to Tom all along, you would know this is not just some guy's blog. Barack reads this! I was thoroughly chastised for having doubted! Back in the old days I do know that the Computer Guys were playing on White House radios. I once made a negative on-air comment about whitehouse.gov and the station was promptly called to be informed that it had already been fixed. Obama will have some interesting things to say tonight when he is interviewed by Barbara Walters. He doesn't want to give up his crackberry. He is looking for ways to lessen a President's isolation from the real world. Alas, I don't think this List would help with that -- too many of our members are living in lalaland. Baa. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
So I'm supposed to go to some guys blog otherwise I can't complain? I thought that's why I voted in real elections, not put some topics up on a blog? You think your responsibilities begin and end with your casting a vote? Well then just say Baa. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Just because Apple asserts this is the case doesn't make it the case. All that I have read on the matter confirms this and I have read with particular interest because of this List. The DMCA prohibits speech about circumvention. That is why we don't allow that here. It is just about the only thing we don't allow here. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Jealousy may be causing them to try sticking it to Apple. I wonder if Apple will figure a way out of this trap. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Do you have any urls about the matter? On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just because Apple asserts this is the case doesn't make it the case. All that I have read on the matter confirms this and I have read with particular interest because of this List. The DMCA prohibits speech about circumvention. That is why we don't allow that here. It is just about the only thing we don't allow here. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Must just be your walmart, the few times I've looked at cds...never bought any, I've seen the versions the artists were selling there were radio versions. This is also marked clearly on their website, not burried in a EULA at the bottom of a page. Mike On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:12 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OTOH, Walmart doesn't label the discs they sell in the store as being different from those sold a legit stores like FYE or Sam Goody. I like the local independent stores when they can survive. Walmart is the kind of store that moved into my town, which had enough healthy stores that had been serving the community for some time, and sold their goods below cost for well over a year. Few business can compete with stores that can afford to lose money for several years until the competition goes out of business, but that's Walmart's business plan. Then Walmart sells inferior, improperly labeled goods at higher prices, since there's few left to compete, plus they get tax breaks, and their employees get state medical aid and food stamps because their wages are too low to live on. Honest businesses can't compete with that, so we're stuck with two Walmarts and not much else. Now we have to drive to Delaware to shop to avoid Walmart. It's a very bad company. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Matthew S. Taylor wrote: Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. Matthew B * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
When Apple sells something at the iTunes store, they tell you up front that it has DRM. Walmart doesn't label their music or movies to tell you that there are significant parts missing from the products. You don't know until the package is open and not returnable. Does Apple really tell you that or do you have to dig to find out that info? I ask this seriously having never bought anything from iTunes. Does it present a box that says briefly states that music you are buying is crippled (in so many words) or is buried in an ULA? You can't have consensual transactions leading to any kind of freedom when the vendor is hiding important information from the buyers. That's called fraud. Buyers need to know that the products are as advertised or labeled. Agreed for the most part. But yet, you know this and still manage avoid Wal-Mart's products. You are still able to buy elsewhere. What's this nonsense about servitude and morality? Morality or ethics has no role to play in the above? Greater knowledge _always_ leads to greater freedom? I don't disagree with the spirit of your statement, but the utility is a different matter. There can be so much knowledge available to sort through that it's rendered it moot. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Apple does not have a history of doing such things unless under duress. That Apple won't allow anyone to legally virtualize OS X on *any* system is just another massive coincidence. Mind you, Apple is free do anything they want with their products or set up any business model they want, as far as I'm concerned. I think they're not all that smart for making such a decision, but it's not my place to set policy on its behalf. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Ahh, so dismissive of Palin's people. If you don't know what it's like to live in a community where a Wal-Mart forces the closing of many of the local businesses, then stick with something you might know something about. Jeff Wright wrote: Actually you are not. In many communities WalMart is the only option. WalMart drove everybody else out of business. I would argue that these communities already had one foot on the commerce banana peel if this is all it took. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart did not drive anyone anywhere. What has happened is that in many small communities the merchants have been so used to doing what they please they were not ready to compete against Walmart. I happen to live in one of those communities of what you speak. (14K, next closest town, 25 miles 50K, Montgomery is 90 miles north) When I moved here, Walmart had just added their grocery store. We had Walmart, Winn-Dixie, Super Sav and Grocery Outlet. (The last two local stores.) Winn Dixie was gone within two years. Victim of their own problems. (Their prices were substantially higher.) There had been another grocery store in town but it lasted only a brief time. (Again a chain that ended up shrinking not expanding and then selling out) The other two locally owned grocery stores are still going strong. We still have two local dairy queens, and a smatering of other stores. We have one men's clothing store in town and he moans all the time about Walmart. Problem is I cannot afford to shop at his store, a pair of slacks cost $50 and up. (way out of my price range) The starting wage at most places around here is minimum wage. When merchants price their merchandise outside the capacity of the consumer to buy it, they shut their doors. Am I happy with the grocery store at my local Walmart? NO! I will not buy meats there, and it does not sell some lines I prefer. So I go to the other grocery stores in town and buy my stuff. But here is another factor in the mix. All I have to do is drive 20 miles to the south and I have even more choices for grocery shopping, and since I am down there at least once a week, plus the chain department stores are there, I can shop even more. That is what has killed local merchants. Too many choices and a lot of competition. One of the biggest mistakes many local merchants made was to compete directly against Walmart. Stupid. Find a niche and fill it. Walmart does not do a lot of things well, or great, so beat them at their own game. By the way I know all about competition. I am a very small fish in a very large market down here. I have to compete against every other church and we are not the flavor of the month. We could simple close our doors, change our style to be like everyone else, or do what we do best and stick around. (Guess which model we chose) Stewart At 06:40 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote: Did you know that airlines regularly edit movies that get shown on airplanes? Yes some people do object to such editing. I think this is an example of something that is right on the edge of wrong or right. Airlines are not in the business of selling movies to passengers (at least not yet). You don't book a flight based on the movie. The movie is an incidental diversion provided as an accommodation. You are free to shop wherever you want. Actually you are not. In many communities WalMart is the only option. WalMart drove everybody else out of business. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I would suggest changing the word force, to give them little option. No one can force me to do anything. I do it of my own free will. Now do they have an effect on the local economy and the local merchants, I think that is a valid and provable fact. (there have been studies that have shown it.) In many cases they leave some local merchants who make it only because they have a captive audience little choice but to shut their doors, or loose their shirts. In other cases, they take out the last brick that was holding up a shoddily run enterprise. It is not universal. In the example I showed earlier of my local situation, they helped take out the last brick of a Grocery Company (Winn-Dixie) that had a lot of problems. The grocery business is a low mark-up high volume industry. (By the way Walmart is not the only offender here, Super Targets and Super K-Marts are found in a number of locations and have the same effect, however Walmart has the lions share of those super stores.) Stewart At 05:11 PM 11/27/2008, you wrote: Ahh, so dismissive of Palin's people. If you don't know what it's like to live in a community where a Wal-Mart forces the closing of many of the local businesses, then stick with something you might know something about. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Apple's attempt to quash an effort to help the latest iPods and iPhones work with non-Apple software such as the Linux operating system is out of line, the Electronic Frontier Foundation said Tuesday. 1) Apple is asserting that the DMCA prohibits these programmers from even speaking about circumventing DRM. Note that this has been the policy on this list for a long time. Also, note that I think this stinks, but it is the law. Maybe this will change as so many demagogic grafters have been voted out of office. Have you put down your marker against the DMCA at ObamaCTO.org? If not, don't complain. 2) What Apple is doing really stinks. They are applying DRM to the entire song database, not to just individual songs whose owners require DRM. This is is far worse than just dissing Linux. Such DRM will prevent 3rd-party software from accessing the media files on the iPod. One big problem I have with this is that a DRMed iPod is no longer a good backup for the music you have on your hard drive. Several times I have helped recover music collections off of iPods. This will preven that. (Curiously, I see that iPod drives seem to fail less often than desktop disk drives.) It also has Apple applying DRM to any non-DRM content I put on such an iPod. I see this is a killer feature. I would not buy an iPod with such draconian DRM. While I do think that Apple should resist DRM more vigorously, their problem is a roadblock set up by the RIAA and MPAA and probably the NAB too. They won't let their content onto iPods unless Apple applies draconian DRM. So Apple can't move their media players to higher forms of content unless it applies the DRM they demand. If the sheeple continue to buy iPods, even after they have such DRM, then the RIAA and MPAA win. If DRMPod sales drop and competing player sales increase or sales of the first DRMPod models are poor then there will be counter pressure for Apple to do the right thing. I think there is a better chance of getting Apple to change course than there would be for most companies. A lot depends on what the sheeple do. I do not have a lot of faith in the sheeple. We can all help by getting the word out about the DRMPod. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
So I'm supposed to go to some guys blog otherwise I can't complain? I thought that's why I voted in real elections, not put some topics up on a blog? On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you put down your marker against the DMCA at ObamaCTO.org? If not, don't complain. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Just because Apple asserts this is the case doesn't make it the case. It seems pretty straightforward and the problem lies with the cost of defense concerning this wiki site. How even if they are 100% in the right, fight a company with as much money and lawyers as Apple? The truth isn't even allowed to come out in this case, it's simply run over by a truck with an Apple logo. Perhaps at some point the whole truth will come out about his matter. Apple chooses to DRM non copyrighted content, it's not forced to by anything. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Apple is asserting that the DMCA prohibits these programmers from even speaking about circumventing DRM. Note that this has been the policy on this list for a long time. Also, note that I think this stinks, but it is the law. Maybe this will change as so many demagogic grafters have been voted out of office. Have you put down your marker against the DMCA at ObamaCTO.org? If not, don't complain. It also has Apple applying DRM to any non-DRM content I put on such an iPod. I see this is a killer feature. I would not buy an iPod with such draconian DRM. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Hey, had you been paying attention to Tom all along, you would know this is not just some guy's blog. Barack reads this! I was thoroughly chastised for having doubted! On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:19 AM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I'm supposed to go to some guys blog otherwise I can't complain? I thought that's why I voted in real elections, not put some topics up on a blog? On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you put down your marker against the DMCA at ObamaCTO.org? If not, don't complain. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: I think there is a better chance of getting Apple to change course than there would be for most companies. A lot depends on what the sheeple do. I do not have a lot of faith in the sheeple. Part of the problem with the public, the sheeple if you will, is that we generally do not know or understand the difference. We, the public, mostly think that completely DRMed content is just the way it is and has to be. We, the public, have no desire to fight against what is perceived to be the defacto standard. We, the public, are getting quite used to being pushed around. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Mike On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: I think there is a better chance of getting Apple to change course than there would be for most companies. A lot depends on what the sheeple do. I do not have a lot of faith in the sheeple. Part of the problem with the public, the sheeple if you will, is that we generally do not know or understand the difference. We, the public, mostly think that completely DRMed content is just the way it is and has to be. We, the public, have no desire to fight against what is perceived to be the defacto standard. We, the public, are getting quite used to being pushed around. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. Matthew On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:31 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/ controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Actually Walmart doesn't edit anything. They sell the music the artists edit themselves. Blame the artistsand you can blame them for the DMCA as well. Mike On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:31 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. I think you mix up freedom for people vs freedom for corporations. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the radical right is the belief that corporations should have the same rights as individuals. It leads to individual rights getting trampled because the powers of corporations are so much greater. Allowing Walmart to censor video content is one example. If Walmart is allowed to do that, what is to stop them from telling newspapers what stories they are allowed to cover and what their editorials should be? E.g. We don't want news about the /war/poor economy/greedy corporations/ to upset our customers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Are the edited versions indicated as such or are they passed off as the real and original recording? If the edited versions are being passed off as original, then that is deception. Richard P. Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
How often do you fly? Did you know that airlines regularly edit movies that get shown on airplanes? One of the reasons is that their customer base is really wide. Some stuff is just not appropriate for certain people. If that is what their customer base wants let them sell it. Does that mean I have to buy from them? I prefer to buy from Amazon not Walmart. You are free to shop wherever you want. Walmart appeals to a different customer base. Stewart At 02:25 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote: I think you mix up freedom for people vs freedom for corporations. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the radical right is the belief that corporations should have the same rights as individuals. It leads to individual rights getting trampled because the powers of corporations are so much greater. Allowing Walmart to censor video content is one example. If Walmart is allowed to do that, what is to stop them from telling newspapers what stories they are allowed to cover and what their editorials should be? E.g. We don't want news about the /war/poor economy/greedy corporations/ to upset our customers. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Do you have any urls about the matter? www.google.com/search?hl=enq=DMCA+prohibits+speech+about+circumvention Yet, efforts to exercise those rights increasingly are being threatened by section 1201 of the DMCA, which created the new crime of circumvention. Section 1201 (a)(1), for example, prohibits unauthorized access to a work by circumventing an effective technological protection measure used by a copyright owner to control access to a copyrighted work. Because the law does not limit its application to circumvention for the purpose of infringing a copyright, all types of traditionally accepted activities may be at risk. Any action of circumvention without the consent of the copyright owner is made criminal. These examples of the content community successfully threatening and hauling into court individuals seeking to exercise traditional free speech rights demonstrate how the DMCA is flawed, and has tipped the copyright balance in a damaging way against traditional fair-use rights. -- Rep. Rick Boucher Ninth Congressional District, VA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I think the radical left has it mixed up. 50 Cent could have said [EMAIL PROTECTED] you to walmart and not edited his album. Period. Not sure why I threw in the radical left, but then I'm not sure why you brought up the radical right. I'm starting to think with the sense you are making lately, that you are actually Keith Olbermann in Tom Piwowar's body. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. I think you mix up freedom for people vs freedom for corporations. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the radical right is the belief that corporations should have the same rights as individuals. It leads to individual rights getting trampled because the powers of corporations are so much greater. Allowing Walmart to censor video content is one example. If Walmart is allowed to do that, what is to stop them from telling newspapers what stories they are allowed to cover and what their editorials should be? E.g. We don't want news about the /war/poor economy/greedy corporations/ to upset our customers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. What I don't understand is why anyone would buy Apple's crippled music in the first place. I never did. I would buy CDs, most often used, and rip them instead of using iTunes. I've found Amazon's music store more than adequate for my needs and I can do any damned thing I want with the music. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I think you mix up freedom for people vs freedom for corporations. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the radical right is the belief that corporations should have the same rights as individuals. It leads to individual rights getting trampled because the powers of corporations are so much greater. Allowing Walmart to censor video content is one example. If Walmart is allowed to do that, what is to stop them from telling newspapers what stories they are allowed to cover and what their editorials should be? E.g. We don't want news about the /war/poor economy/greedy corporations/ to upset our customers. Tom seems to be confused on the notion of consenting adults freely engaging in commerce with one another. As Matthew already explained, quite clearly I thought, Wal-Mart is free to make any demand it wants regarding the products and services it sells. Providers of said products and services are free to agree or tell Wal-Mart to take stick it in a sunless repository. Customers are free to consume Wal-Mart's offerings or take a pass and buy elsewhere. Everybody wins. Wal-Mart is free to conduct business however they see fit and consumers are free to shop wherever they please, including Wal-Mart competitors. However, this sort of arrangement generally annoys the nanny types among us, who believe that they are the Poppins reincarnated and know better than everyone else. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I'll admit, I've found Amazon to be great and is now my default for buying just about everything online. I've found beating the prices on Amazon difficult, unless I waste my time (which is money) to do so. Jeff M On Nov 26, 2008, at 9:46 AM, mike wrote: Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Mike * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
The problem is, the wiki site wasn't circumventing DRM. Apple sent a lawyer swat team over holding briefcases of lies so they could strong arm a site to do their bidding. I'm not arguing the right or wrong of the DMCA, but the fact that this doesn't even fall under the DMCA. The wiki site simply doesn't have the money to spend all the time in court it would take to prove that...providing they didn't get a judge that still thought rotary phones were cool. Mike On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have any urls about the matter? www.google.com/search?hl=enq=DMCA+prohibits+speech+about+circumvention Yet, efforts to exercise those rights increasingly are being threatened by section 1201 of the DMCA, which created the new crime of circumvention. Section 1201 (a)(1), for example, prohibits unauthorized access to a work by circumventing an effective technological protection measure used by a copyright owner to control access to a copyrighted work. Because the law does not limit its application to circumvention for the purpose of infringing a copyright, all types of traditionally accepted activities may be at risk. Any action of circumvention without the consent of the copyright owner is made criminal. These examples of the content community successfully threatening and hauling into court individuals seeking to exercise traditional free speech rights demonstrate how the DMCA is flawed, and has tipped the copyright balance in a damaging way against traditional fair-use rights. -- Rep. Rick Boucher Ninth Congressional District, VA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
The way I've heard and read about this bit of history is the night club owners started buy screwing the artists out of pay. This continued with the record labels screwing the artists out of royalties, then the artists screwing the labels back, who passed the love on to the vendors, who of course passed all this wonderful stuff on to the consumer. Jeff M On Nov 26, 2008, at 11:48 AM, mike wrote: Actually Walmart doesn't edit anything. They sell the music the artists edit themselves. Blame the artistsand you can blame them for the DMCA as well. Mike On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:31 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Walmart and Amazon both have significant libraries that are DRM free. The near monopoly Apple has(d) on digital tunes seems to have angered some of the record companies and they have struck better deals elsewhere. Walmart is DRM free? Sure. They also edit all the good/interesting/controversial parts out of the movies and music they sell. Evil store. Better to get rid of DMCA than to rely on vendors like Walmart. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Maybe this will change as so many demagogic grafters have been voted out of office. Do you mean the bill signed into law by the last Democratic administration, which the current one seems to be intent on stuffing his administration full of its leftovers? Have faith, brother, have faith. One big problem I have with this is that a DRMed iPod is no longer a good backup for the music you have on your hard drive. Several times I have helped recover music collections off of iPods. This will preven that. (Curiously, I see that iPod drives seem to fail less often than desktop disk drives.) Don't depend on your iPod as your backup. I know I don't. 2) What Apple is doing really stinks. They are applying DRM to the entire song database, not to just individual songs whose owners require DRM. This is is far worse than just dissing Linux. Such DRM will prevent 3rd-party software from accessing the media files on the iPod. For once, you and I are in complete agreement. While I do think that Apple should resist DRM more vigorously, their problem is a roadblock set up by the RIAA and MPAA and probably the NAB too. They won't let their content onto iPods unless Apple applies draconian DRM. So Apple can't move their media players to higher forms of content unless it applies the DRM they demand. Apple: **wink-wink** We're doing this because the bad people _make_ us do this, not because it forces iPod owners to use our business model, which is a locked-down vertical stove-pipe just by sheer coincidence. **wink-wink** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Not strictly true. They require artists who wish to sell via their store to provide edited versions. Nothing evil about it, just a marketing decision that for them works. No one is forced to make an edit and Walmart is not forced, nor should any store be forced, to sell what they do not wish to sell. Freedom is a two way street. Knowledge--not censorship--leads to freedom. For a long time Walmart and other vendors sold edited music and videos unlabeled. Buyers didn't know that they were getting damaged goods. Walmart forced artists to edit their material to allow them to sell at Walmart. These goods need to be labeled for what they are. Sometimes Walmart still forgets to do that. Walmart is too big a market for many artists to ignore, so they accept the blackmail which forces them to provide inferior goods, or go out of business. Walmart and corporations like that don't want you to have freedom of choice. They simply want to lie, and steal from you. Does the DMCA require proper labeling of electronic entertainment media? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:48 PM, mike wrote: Actually Walmart doesn't edit anything. They sell the music the artists edit themselves. Blame the artistsand you can blame them for the DMCA as well. I have to essentially disagree with that last sentence. Most musical artists are pretty much an unknown lot who just scrape by. Only a relative few hold any real sway over the industry and rake in mucho dinero, but all artists who are under contact are pretty much at the will and whim of the record company to whom they are contracted. In other words, they don't call the shots, although many who do make it to the top wind up liking the money and the perks and will go along with the game plan quite willingly. A few do fight the power and might succeed in that to lo one degree or another. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
The problem is, the wiki site wasn't circumventing DRM. It was discussing it. Under DMCA merely doing that is a crime. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
As Matthew already explained, quite clearly I thought, Wal-Mart is free to make any demand it wants regarding the products and services it sells. Providers of said products and services are free to agree or tell Wal-Mart to take stick it in a sunless repository. There you go. Thank you for proving my point. Providers are in no position to resist WalMart. A great example of this is what WalMart did to RubberMaid. WalMart kept making demands until RubberMaid collapsed and was liquidated. (What you see in stores today labeled RubberMaid is just the name, sold off as one of the company's assets.) Customers are free to consume Wal-Mart's offerings or take a pass and buy elsewhere. After all the stores in the community were put out of business by WalMart? Sure. You live in lalaland. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
What I don't understand is why anyone would buy Apple's crippled music in the first place. I never did. I would buy CDs, most often used, and rip them instead of using iTunes. Yep. I have Apple Store gift cards that sit unused because the terms are so unappealing. If I want music I buy a DRM-free disc. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Not sure why I threw in the radical left, but then I'm not sure why you brought up the radical right. I'm starting to think with the sense you are making lately, that you are actually Keith Olbermann in Tom Piwowar's body. Can't respond with logic so just make a personal attack. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I respond in kind with you Mr. Piwowar, you are the king of personal attacks on this list. I bow to the master. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not sure why I threw in the radical left, but then I'm not sure why you brought up the radical right. I'm starting to think with the sense you are making lately, that you are actually Keith Olbermann in Tom Piwowar's body. Can't respond with logic so just make a personal attack. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
No, it wasn't. This is what I was talking about, you simply buy what Apple's lawyers are selling. The site said they were going after the itunes library file, not anything to do with the DRM. Does your mac fan boi baaa sound anything like the WFB baaa? I would suspect so, both tools for the man! Mike On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is, the wiki site wasn't circumventing DRM. It was discussing it. Under DMCA merely doing that is a crime. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I would have considered that a compliment, not an attack. Jeff M On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:56 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Not sure why I threw in the radical left, but then I'm not sure why you brought up the radical right. I'm starting to think with the sense you are making lately, that you are actually Keith Olbermann in Tom Piwowar's body. Can't respond with logic so just make a personal attack. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * Don't be humble... you're not that great. Golda Meir * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
It was discussing it. Under DMCA merely doing that is a crime. I don't think so. They weren't trying to crack the DRM, just the library database. In other words, they weren't trying to get at the tunes, just the -list- of tunes. I admit to not having read the DMCA in its entirety, but I'd be pretty surprised if this was covered. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
No, it wasn't. This is what I was talking about, you simply buy what Apple's lawyers are selling... The List's policy in this regard has been around for years. Find my write up at cguys.org. If anything Apple is following me. Baa baa. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
What are you talking about? You just keep buying...I've seen enough sheep to known when I see one, Tom...baabaa. Keep backing up that DMCA, keep spreading your FUD. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, it wasn't. This is what I was talking about, you simply buy what Apple's lawyers are selling... The List's policy in this regard has been around for years. Find my write up at cguys.org. If anything Apple is following me. Baa baa. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
There you go. Thank you for proving my point. Your point was...that you don't have one other than tin-foil hattery? You live in lalaland. What aisle is that on at Target? I think I saw it for sale on Amazon once, but they didn't have free shipping, so I passed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Knowledge--not censorship--leads to freedom. Knowledge leads to more knowledge. It might lead to servitude if the wrong parties gain access to the wrong knowledge. Knowledge without a moral or ethical code to guide it is just data. Self-important and self-appointed meddlers keeping their noses out of other people's consensual transactions leads to greater freedom, among other things. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
After all the stores in the community were put out of business by WalMart? Sure. You should notify the Department of Buggy Whips and Candle Makers about such things. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Did you know that airlines regularly edit movies that get shown on airplanes? Yes some people do object to such editing. I think this is an example of something that is right on the edge of wrong or right. Airlines are not in the business of selling movies to passengers (at least not yet). You don't book a flight based on the movie. The movie is an incidental diversion provided as an accommodation. You are free to shop wherever you want. Actually you are not. In many communities WalMart is the only option. WalMart drove everybody else out of business. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
I don't think so. They weren't trying to crack the DRM, just the library database. In other words, they weren't trying to get at the tunes, just the -list- of tunes. I admit to not having read the DMCA in its entirety, but I'd be pretty surprised if this was covered. Then be surprised. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Actually you are not. In many communities WalMart is the only option. WalMart drove everybody else out of business. I would argue that these communities already had one foot on the commerce banana peel if this is all it took. Ted Stevens can tell you about this series of tubes that is driving a good portion of commerce today. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
Knowledge leads to more knowledge. It might lead to servitude if the wrong parties gain access to the wrong knowledge. Knowledge without a moral or ethical code to guide it is just data. Self-important and self-appointed meddlers keeping their noses out of other people's consensual transactions leads to greater freedom, among other things. When Apple sells something at the iTunes store, they tell you up front that it has DRM. Walmart doesn't label their music or movies to tell you that there are significant parts missing from the products. You don't know until the package is open and not returnable. You can't have consensual transactions leading to any kind of freedom when the vendor is hiding important information from the buyers. That's called fraud. Buyers need to know that the products are as advertised or labeled. What's this nonsense about servitude and morality? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] EFF chastises Apple
There is no DRM on the library, try again, Tom. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think so. They weren't trying to crack the DRM, just the library database. In other words, they weren't trying to get at the tunes, just the -list- of tunes. I admit to not having read the DMCA in its entirety, but I'd be pretty surprised if this was covered. Then be surprised. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
