Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and df discrepancy

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Sascha Noyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Just noticed by chance that rpmdrake displays a significantly different amount 
> of free diskspace from df. 
> 
> / has 147 MB free (according to df) and 282 MB (according to rpmdrake). Note 
> that my only partitions are / and /home (which has a lot of free space). Any 
> ideas?

Rpmdrake talks about statfs' f_bfree, which is the real available
diskspace for installing packages, where df most probably talks
about f_bavail, which is what's important for users.

If you're using an ext2 filesystem, you may change the reserved
blocks count without loosing data, using tune2fs.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

[Cooker] rpmdrake and df discrepancy

[Sascha Noyes]

Just noticed by chance that rpmdrake displays a significantly different amount 
of free diskspace from df. 

/ has 147 MB free (according to df) and 282 MB (according to rpmdrake). Note 
that my only partitions are / and /home (which has a lot of free space). Any 
ideas?

Best,
Sascha Noyes

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 04:36:36PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:27, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > Hi
> > > 
> > > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> > 
> > What do you mean? Works for me..
> 
> first guess, he's running rpmdrake when he should be running
> rpmdrake-remove ?

I was running "rpmdrake-" meaning remove.

keld

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Adam Williamson]

On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 17:15, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:

> Also, why people don't just *read* the big "Software Packages
> Installation" up the rpmdrake window is a total mystery to me.
> Even if they don't at first, they might do it when they see they
> can't find place for installed packages... eck, no.

Ah, once again you're overestimating your users, Guillaume ;). You
should probably think of us as a sort of cross-breed, with the
intelligence of amoebae and the attention span and memory of goldfish...
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:49, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:27, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > > > Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > > > > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> > > > 
> > > > What do you mean? Works for me..
> > > 
> > > first guess, he's running rpmdrake when he should be running
> > > rpmdrake-remove ?
> > 
> > Then "simply does not find the installed packages" is not very
> > descriptive :/.
> 
> Nope, I agree, but that's certainly what you'd see if you thought
> rpmdrake was still the program to use to remove packages - you'd search
> for installed packages and, of course, not find them...so that's why
> that's my guess.

But when searching you notice there is nowhere to search them.

Also, why people don't just *read* the big "Software Packages
Installation" up the rpmdrake window is a total mystery to me.
Even if they don't at first, they might do it when they see they
can't find place for installed packages... eck, no.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 05:27:06PM +0200, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> 
> What do you mean? Works for me..

Did some other removals, and it looked like it works, yes.
I just had the same problem with removal in rpmdrake for two different packages,
so I thought it was rpmdrake, but I dont think so any longer.
Or maybe it is not a general error, but only in specific instances.

I was trying to remove vsftpd, but it did not show up as removable in
rpmdrake- searching for package vsftpd. I also saw that I could activate it as a 
service, so it
was installed. I would like to remove it as the anon ftp did not work
out of the box, and looking at the vsftpd configuration file I could not
see a place to configure it out of the problems. Hmm, maybe it was a
firewall problem, will test...

But I could not remove vsftpd and furthermore vsftpd showed up as an
"other service" under postinstallation of services,
I think it would be better characterized as an "internet service".

Best regards
Keld

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Adam Williamson]

On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:49, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:27, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > > Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > 
> > > > Hi
> > > > 
> > > > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > > > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> > > 
> > > What do you mean? Works for me..
> > 
> > first guess, he's running rpmdrake when he should be running
> > rpmdrake-remove ?
> 
> Then "simply does not find the installed packages" is not very
> descriptive :/.

Nope, I agree, but that's certainly what you'd see if you thought
rpmdrake was still the program to use to remove packages - you'd search
for installed packages and, of course, not find them...so that's why
that's my guess.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:27, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > Hi
> > > 
> > > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> > 
> > What do you mean? Works for me..
> 
> first guess, he's running rpmdrake when he should be running
> rpmdrake-remove ?

Then "simply does not find the installed packages" is not very
descriptive :/.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Adam Williamson]

On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 16:27, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> > Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.
> 
> What do you mean? Works for me..

first guess, he's running rpmdrake when he should be running
rpmdrake-remove ?
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Keld Jørn Simonsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi
> 
> I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
> Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.

What do you mean? Works for me..

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

[Cooker] rpmdrake- will not fild packages to remove

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

Hi

I have tried to remove some packages with rpmdrake, but I do not succeed.
Rpmdrake simply does not find the installed packages. This is RC2.

keld

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake problem

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Paul Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > That's not normal.. any tip?
> I logged a bug report (4882) concerning this. Problems are occuring because we 
> use LDAP authentication on our network:

Hm, I don't see any connection? :/
 
> (clues from xession-errors)
> ...
> could not get user name from user id
> DCOP aborting (delayed) call from 'anonymous-5247' to 'kdesktop'
> ERROR: Communication problem with kdesktop, it probably crashed.
> ...
> 
> Anybody else using LDAP for authentication? Things working okay?


-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake problem

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul Dorman wrote:
> On Tuesday 02 September 2003 09:29, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
>
>>Paul Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I think this is a 'glitch', rather than a 'bug' :op
>>>
>>>I have two cooker machines, both up to date. On both machines I have
>>>problems with users not being able to see the icons and background on
>>>their desktop, or have the right-click menu from the desktop. There's
>>>just the default blue desktop...
>>
>>That's not normal.. any tip?

Wasn't this recently fixed in kdelibs?

>
> I logged a bug report (4882) concerning this. Problems are occuring
because we
> use LDAP authentication on our network:
>
> (clues from xession-errors)
> ...
> could not get user name from user id

That's weird, what happens if you run 'getent passwd `id -u`'?

> DCOP aborting (delayed) call from 'anonymous-5247' to 'kdesktop'
> ERROR: Communication problem with kdesktop, it probably crashed.
> ...
>
> Anybody else using LDAP for authentication? Things working okay?

We use LDAP, one cooker box one user has a similar issue with kdesktop,
mine works fine (so I haven't investigated it). We have $HOME on NFS
also. Are you using nscd? Do you see other problems in auth.log?

Regards,
Buchan

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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake problem

[Paul Dorman]

On Tuesday 02 September 2003 09:29, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Paul Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I think this is a 'glitch', rather than a 'bug' :op
> >
> > I have two cooker machines, both up to date. On both machines I have
> > problems with users not being able to see the icons and background on
> > their desktop, or have the right-click menu from the desktop. There's
> > just the default blue desktop...
>
> That's not normal.. any tip?
I logged a bug report (4882) concerning this. Problems are occuring because we 
use LDAP authentication on our network:

(clues from xession-errors)
...
could not get user name from user id
DCOP aborting (delayed) call from 'anonymous-5247' to 'kdesktop'
ERROR: Communication problem with kdesktop, it probably crashed.
...

Anybody else using LDAP for authentication? Things working okay?

Regards,
Paul.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and drakgw doesn't works

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

"_ cosmicflo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>   Hello,
> 
> We cannot add a new software source in rpmdrake (crash), drakgw
> crash at configuration.
> I've report bugs.
> 
> When will they works ? How many time working version of this Mdk
> tools will be tested before 9.2 release ?

It's up to you to:

- read answers to bugzilla problems, which usually contain if the
  bug is fixed and in which version of the tool the fix will
  appear;

- re-test when the said package version is released.

As of rpmdrake crash when adding a source, it's clearly stated in
the CVS when it was fixed, and which version of rpmdrake would
contain the fix.

If you don't play by the rules, don't complain.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake problem

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Paul Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi all, 
> 
> I think this is a 'glitch', rather than a 'bug' :op 
> 
> I have two cooker machines, both up to date. On both machines I have problems 
> with users not being able to see the icons and background on their desktop, 
> or have the right-click menu from the desktop. There's just the default blue 
> desktop...

That's not normal.. any tip?
 
> On one of the machines rpmdrake works fine, but on the other rpmdrake dies 
> when I click or tab around the rpmdrake interface. In the console (when I run 
> the program from the console) I get the error:

Very strange..
 
> Can't locate object method "iter_has_child" via package "Gtk2::TreeIter" at 
> /usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm line 1308.

Titi, seems that

my ($model, $iter) = $_[0]->get_selected;

is returning a TreeIter instead of a TreeModel as first arg, any
reason why? I remember having seen on the gtk-perl list that this
function should act differently among scalar or list context, and
in scalar context will return a TreeIter only? But that should
not happen here for us :/.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and drakgw doesn't works

[Eric Fernandez]

_ cosmicflo wrote:

 Hello,

We cannot add a new software source in rpmdrake (crash), drakgw crash 
at configuration.
I've report bugs.

When will they works ? How many time working version of this Mdk tools 
will be tested before 9.2 release ?

Thanks

_
Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental 
controls.  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental


Testing is currently in progress actually :)
Update with cooker packages. This page : 
http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/index.php allows you to configure your 
cooker sources.
Eric

[Cooker] rpmdrake and drakgw doesn't works

[_ cosmicflo]

 Hello,

We cannot add a new software source in rpmdrake (crash), drakgw crash at 
configuration.
I've report bugs.

When will they works ? How many time working version of this Mdk tools will 
be tested before 9.2 release ?

Thanks

_
Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental

[Cooker] rpmdrake problem

[Paul Dorman]

Hi all, 

I think this is a 'glitch', rather than a 'bug' :op 

I have two cooker machines, both up to date. On both machines I have problems 
with users not being able to see the icons and background on their desktop, 
or have the right-click menu from the desktop. There's just the default blue 
desktop...

On one of the machines rpmdrake works fine, but on the other rpmdrake dies 
when I click or tab around the rpmdrake interface. In the console (when I run 
the program from the console) I get the error:

Can't locate object method "iter_has_child" via package "Gtk2::TreeIter" at 
/usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm line 1308.

Anyone with some clues? I've done the obvious for both (resetting kde prefs, 
erasing kde hidden dirs in ~/, checked drakxtools installs, perl GTK 
installs, etc.)

Cheers all!
Paul.

Re: [Cooker] Rpmdrake inspecting of config files

[Duncan]

On Wed 13 Aug 2003 08:04, John Allen posted as excerpted below:
> On Wednesday 13 August 2003 11:31, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > John Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Rpmdrake should do a diff of .rpmnew/.rpmsave and if no changes are
> > > detected, zap the rpmsave, or use .rpmnew automatically. This will
> > > reduce the amount of files you have to manually inspect.
> >
> > Is it normal at first place that a .rpmnew is created which
> > contents is the same as the config file?
>
> Well I'm getting lots of them when I use rpmdrake to do updates. I know it
> is the underlying rpm that creates .rpmsave, and .rpmnew files, but
> rpmdrake could just use the .rpmnew, and delete the .rpmsave when there are
> no actual differences.

I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm by no means an expert, 
but this is the conclusion I've come to by watching the behavior over various 
upgrades here.

1) RPM stores the md5 sum of the various files in a package in its database.  
One can get a report on the files that have changed from those in the 
original package by doing an rpm -V , with the returned format 
listing consisting of any file that's changed, and a flag list of what aspect 
has changed, date, size, md5sum, etc.

2) As far as I've been able to conclude, at upgrade time, rpm checks config 
files, and directly replaces any that return as unchanged from the last 
package.  Any that return as changed aren't replaced, but rather, rpm 
installs the new config file as file.rpmnew, retaining any customizations 
you've made to the configuration.  Of course, upgrades may include new or 
changed features, and a manual reconciliation and merge of differences may be 
necessary.  However, that's far better than totally and arbitrarily 
overwriting any customizations you may have made, while still leaving a copy 
of the new uncustomized version conveniently available where one can view it 
and incorporate any new config changes into the old customized version if 
desired/necessary.

3) The same basic process occurs at rpm uninstall, with unchanged config files 
uninstalling cleanly, since if one installs the package again, they just get 
non-customized installed once again, but any config files that were changed 
are not removed, but rather renamed with the .rpmsave extension.  Thus, if 
the package is reinstalled, one can easily recustomize it if necessary by 
just replacing the uncustomized config file with the rpmsave version.  Of 
course if a newer version is installed, a manual merge or reconciliation may 
be necessary, as is the case with upgrades and .rpmnew files.

Thus, if those files are being created, it's a sign that rpm thinks the 
original config files were modified/customized and thus doesn't want to 
overwrite them.  Of course, keep in mind that you may not have edited them 
directly for them to be changed (think a gui config helper app changing 
them), but if they indeed haven't changed, and rpm is constantly installing 
duplicate rpmnew config files, you may have a corrupt rpm database, which 
thus thinks that even unchanged config files are different.  Again, one can 
verify what RPM thinks has changed on an individual package by using the 
verify package switch (-V) on rpm.  If your database is indeed corrupted, a 
--rebuilddb or similar may be required.  See the man page for the appropriate 
switch and its correct usage.

Hope that helps, and again, I don't claim to be an expert, and am only 
reporting what I've observed and the conclusions I've reached based on that 
that make the most sense to me given what I've seen.  Again, should any of 
this be wrong, please someone, correct me as necessary.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

Frank Griffin wrote:

I'll try it on a fresh cooker install.  The one I did it on was up to 
date for today, but the install was from a few days ago and I had been 
keeping it current with urpmi.
Well. I will as soon as the install gets fixed so that X (and therefore 
rpmdrake) can be run

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:

So, the problem
appears to be in the FlashPlayer RPM,
   

Maybe you could report that to the author of the RPM then?
Thanks!
 

Happy to, but the maximum info display in rpmdrake Changelog just lists

* Thu Dec 12 2002 Mandrake Linux Team  
6.0-3mdk

as the maintainer.  Can you tell me to whom to send this request ?

Re: double-clicking on files directly from CD's [was: Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

"Andrey Borzenkov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > What do people think?
> 
> As long as kernel team remains silent about anything I do - your hack
> looks like the simplest solution.

(Sorry, cleaning my inbox and noticing this)

Ok so I'm adding the hack in mount.c.

Now, is it a good thing to add mode=0644 as a default mount
option for cd/dvd drives from within drakx? My few tests showed
that

- used with a cd with Joliet extensions (and no Rock Ridge), it
  cures the 0755 illness by putting 0644 instead: should be fine
  except for Linux binaries you want to execute directly, but it
  should really be a moot issue if it's a CD with no Rock Ridge

- used with a cd with Rock Ridge extensions, it seems to be
  nicely ignored

- used with a dvd it's ignored thx to my mount.c patch

So I guess it should be ok. Any more thought?

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

[Cooker] Rpmdrake inspecting of config files

[John Allen]

Rpmdrake should do a diff of .rpmnew/.rpmsave and if no changes are detected, 
zap the rpmsave, or use .rpmnew automatically. This will reduce the amount of 
files you have to manually inspect.

Thanks.


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Re: [Cooker] Rpmdrake inspecting of config files

[Luca Berra]

John Allen wrote:
Rpmdrake should do a diff of .rpmnew/.rpmsave and if no changes are detected, 
zap the rpmsave, or use .rpmnew automatically. This will reduce the amount of 
files you have to manually inspect.

you can urpmi etc-update, but since it is a gentoo tool, it sucks a lot, 
when i have some time i will contrib a fixed version.

regards,
L.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> 
> >Is it reproducable with another package? Here I can see no
> >problems..
> >
> >
> I did a fresh install this morning, went to a root command line,
> added the Club Commercial site as a media, and did
> 
>urpmi FlashPlayer
> 
> This got the same error that I reported for rpmdrake.  When I
> added --allow-force, it worked as before.  So, the problem
> appears to be in the FlashPlayer RPM, which wouldn't be so
> annoying if swfdec actually worked on most of the swf's out there
> :-)

Maybe you could report that to the author of the RPM then?
Thanks!
 

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Lyvim Xaphir]

On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 11:18, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > 
> > >>So, the problem
> > >>appears to be in the FlashPlayer RPM,
> > >>
> > >
> > >Maybe you could report that to the author of the RPM then?
> > >Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > Happy to, but the maximum info display in rpmdrake Changelog just lists
> > 
> > * Thu Dec 12 2002 Mandrake Linux Team
> >  6.0-3mdk
> > 
> > as the maintainer.  Can you tell me to whom to send this request ?
> 
> I confess (to the risk of being Livym Xaphir's bashed again) I'm
> not very fluent with Club. Actually I've not logged in for ages..
> I don't even know who does those rpm's now..

Don't worry, GC. :)

LX

-- 

Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk   Linux Mandrake 9.1
Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk  Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk
Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Charles A Edwards]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:43:57 -0400
Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> urpmi --no-verify-rpm --allow-force FlashPlayer
> 
> and it installed cleanly without a single complaint.

Had you not used --allow-force urpmi would have given you the same error
as did rpmdrake.


Charles

-- 
Eloquence is logic on fire.
-
Mandrake Linux 9.2 on PurpleDragon
Kernel- 2.4.21.6mdk http://www.eslrahc.com 
-


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:

Is it reproducable with another package? Here I can see no
problems..
 

I did a fresh install this morning, went to a root command line, added 
the Club Commercial site as a media, and did

  urpmi FlashPlayer

This got the same error that I reported for rpmdrake.  When I added 
--allow-force, it worked as before.  So, the problem appears to be in 
the FlashPlayer RPM, which wouldn't be so annoying if swfdec actually 
worked on most of the swf's out there :-)

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Ben Reser]

On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 05:27:08PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
> Well, it's not specific to Club, the same packages are on the commercial
> CDs.
> 
> And the disparity between packaging files for commercial apps and other
> packages has been an issue before. If people building for Club need to
> make one fix to a package, or update it (like Nvidia drivers for example
> - and with the ones for 9.1 I couldn't even find the release used in the
> commercial packages from NVidia), you have to start from scratch.
> 
> It would be nice if at least the spec files were available in CVS ...

I had this same sort of issue.  I wanted to package real player for PPC.
Had to start over from scratch.  I'm stilling waiting for someone from
Mandrakesoft to tell me if their agreement with Real that lets them
distribute the package for i586 lets them do so for PPC so I can upload
the package...  

-- 
Ben Reser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

Charles A Edwards wrote:

Had you not used --allow-force urpmi would have given you the same error
as did rpmdrake.
 

That's not what I would expect.  From the man page:

  --allow-force
 Allow urpmi to ask user to continue installation using no 
depen-
 dencies checking or forced installation due to error. By 
default
 urpmi exit immediately in such case.

Previously, I've had it display the errors and then prompt me as to 
whether I want to continue.

[Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

I just tried to install the MandrakeClub Commercial FlashPlayer package 
on today's cooker with rpmdrake, and got the error:

FlashPlayer-6.0-3mdk.i586 (due to unsatisfied 
rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1

I then went to command line and tried:

urpmi --no-verify-rpm --allow-force FlashPlayer

and it installed cleanly without a single complaint.

I use --no-verify-rpm because of the current key incompatibilities in 
Cooker, and I know that urpmi has complained about unsatisfied 
conditions (see an earlier bug report today about printer-utils) even 
with this switch.

So is rpmdrake imagining unsatisfied dependencies or is urpmi ignoring 
them ?  Or am I just doing something dumb without realizing it ?

Re: [Cooker] Rpmdrake inspecting of config files

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

John Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Rpmdrake should do a diff of .rpmnew/.rpmsave and if no changes are detected, 
> zap the rpmsave, or use .rpmnew automatically. This will reduce the amount of 
> files you have to manually inspect.

Is it normal at first place that a .rpmnew is created which
contents is the same as the config file?

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] Rpmdrake inspecting of config files

[John Allen]

On Wednesday 13 August 2003 11:31, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> John Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Rpmdrake should do a diff of .rpmnew/.rpmsave and if no changes are
> > detected, zap the rpmsave, or use .rpmnew automatically. This will reduce
> > the amount of files you have to manually inspect.
>
> Is it normal at first place that a .rpmnew is created which
> contents is the same as the config file?

Well I'm getting lots of them when I use rpmdrake to do updates. I know it is 
the underlying rpm that creates .rpmsave, and .rpmnew files, but rpmdrake 
could just use the .rpmnew, and delete the .rpmsave when there are no actual 
differences.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> So is rpmdrake imagining unsatisfied dependencies or is urpmi
> ignoring them ?  Or am I just doing something dumb without
> realizing it ?

Is it reproducable with another package? Here I can see no
problems..

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Frank Griffin]

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:

Is it reproducable with another package? Here I can see no
problems..
 

I'll try it on a fresh cooker install.  The one I did it on was up to 
date for today, but the install was from a few days ago and I had been 
keeping it current with urpmi.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Buchan Milne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > Jay DeKing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> >>Now let's not let this happen again ;-p
> >
> > For that we'd need to throw titi (tvignaud) to jail :).
> 
> Or not let gc go on holiday ...

Yep :/.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>>Happy to, but the maximum info display in rpmdrake Changelog just lists
>>
>>* Thu Dec 12 2002 Mandrake Linux Team
>> 6.0-3mdk
>>
>>as the maintainer.  Can you tell me to whom to send this request ?
>
>
> I confess (to the risk of being Livym Xaphir's bashed again) I'm
> not very fluent with Club. Actually I've not logged in for ages..
> I don't even know who does those rpm's now..
>

Well, it's not specific to Club, the same packages are on the commercial
CDs.

And the disparity between packaging files for commercial apps and other
packages has been an issue before. If people building for Club need to
make one fix to a package, or update it (like Nvidia drivers for example
- - and with the ones for 9.1 I couldn't even find the release used in the
commercial packages from NVidia), you have to start from scratch.

It would be nice if at least the spec files were available in CVS ...

Regards,
Buchan

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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake ftp url problem

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Guillaume Cottenceau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Joe Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Sure enough!  /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg has the urls for the installation CDs
> > with the double slash after the ip addresses.
> 
> Hum, how can this be? I can't reproduce. Maybe that depends on
> FTP servers configurations then.
> 
> I change the code so that you will have only one / now. Thanks.

Ok, this was wrong. The first / will be the separator, the rest
is the URL.

If I entered "obiwan" and "/export" during install, I will want
that ftp client will CWD to "/export" to go to base directory,
not to "export". If I remove the first slash, it will be that
way. You probably have a trouble with absolute/relative paths.
Check the logs of the ftp server if you can. If you wanted to
specify an URL relative to the homedir of the user you're using,
remove the / at the beginning of the URL you gave.

I revert my change.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> 
> >>So, the problem
> >>appears to be in the FlashPlayer RPM,
> >>
> >
> >Maybe you could report that to the author of the RPM then?
> >Thanks!
> >
> >
> Happy to, but the maximum info display in rpmdrake Changelog just lists
> 
> * Thu Dec 12 2002 Mandrake Linux Team
>  6.0-3mdk
> 
> as the maintainer.  Can you tell me to whom to send this request ?

I confess (to the risk of being Livym Xaphir's bashed again) I'm
not very fluent with Club. Actually I've not logged in for ages..
I don't even know who does those rpm's now..

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[François Pons]

Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I just tried to install the MandrakeClub Commercial FlashPlayer package on
> today's cooker with rpmdrake, and got the error:
> 
> FlashPlayer-6.0-3mdk.i586 (due to unsatisfied rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <=
> 4.0-1

This is strange, such error should not happens in fact because there are simply
ignored (normally).

> I then went to command line and tried:
> 
> urpmi --no-verify-rpm --allow-force FlashPlayer
> 
> and it installed cleanly without a single complaint.

Beware that adding --allow-force change way the resolution is done (especially
for unsatisfied dependencies...).

So try again without this flag.

Francois.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake vs. urpmi weirdness

[François Pons]

Frank Griffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Charles A Edwards wrote:
> 
> >Had you not used --allow-force urpmi would have given you the same error
> >as did rpmdrake.
> >
> That's not what I would expect.  From the man page:
> 
>--allow-force
>   Allow urpmi to ask user to continue installation using no depen-
>   dencies checking or forced installation due to error. By default
>   urpmi exit immediately in such case.
> 
> Previously, I've had it display the errors and then prompt me as to whether I
> want to continue.

I have to change the man page, now --allow-force authorize the resolution
dependencies algorithm to ignore unsatisfied dependencies in order to avoid
removing packages, this is a hack of course.

Why it has been added to this option ? Because --allow-force allo package to be
installed with broken dependencies, so we continue on the same road...

Francois.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Jay DeKing]

On Monday 04 August 2003 5:29 pm, Guillaume Cottenceau honored me with this 
communique:
> Pascal Cavy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Select one package on updates  opens the new package list
> > > select a package then another one  unselects the previously selected
> > > ... etc...
> >
> > thanks for the update Guillaume, that's really better !
>
> Seems that there are at least two new things:
>
> - there is a maybe-gtk lock when the text in "description" is
>   just a certain size (at the limite of the elevators appearance)
>
> - in the install, selection messages are broken (accumulates)

Hey, hey!  The latest rpmdrake is working correctly again!
(after installing these:)
rpm-4.2-15mdk
rpm-build-4.2-15mdk
rpmdrake-2.1-30mdk
rpm-python-4.2-15mdk
perl-URPM-0.92-4mdk

What a relief. I was getting carpal tunnel from typing 'urpmi package1 
package2 package3' etc ...

Thanks!

Now let's not let this happen again ;-p

Jay

-- 
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed
in overalls and looks like work.
- Thomas Edison

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Jay DeKing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Now let's not let this happen again ;-p

For that we'd need to throw titi (tvignaud) to jail :).

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> Jay DeKing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>Now let's not let this happen again ;-p
>
> For that we'd need to throw titi (tvignaud) to jail :).

Or not let gc go on holiday ...

- --
|--Another happy Mandrake Club member--|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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rWeQyMB7driP9aIEWxtl1tw=
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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake ftp url problem

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Joe Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Sure enough!  /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg has the urls for the installation CDs
> with the double slash after the ip addresses.

Hum, how can this be? I can't reproduce. Maybe that depends on
FTP servers configurations then.

I change the code so that you will have only one / now. Thanks.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Pascal Cavy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Select one package on updates  opens the new package list
> > select a package then another one  unselects the previously selected ...
> > etc...
> 
> thanks for the update Guillaume, that's really better !

Seems that there are at least two new things:

- there is a maybe-gtk lock when the text in "description" is
  just a certain size (at the limite of the elevators appearance)

- in the install, selection messages are broken (accumulates)

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and proxy

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

David Walser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > It didn't when I looked.  It looked as if rpmdrake
> > wasn't configured to use a proxy.
> 
> I still think edit-urpm-sources.pl should show the
> proxy.  BTW, are you ever gonna rename or symlink it

It has a proxy config, but you already know it I think. Are you
not talking about it?

> to rpmdrake-sources like we discussed long ago (you
> didn't do it then because you didn't want to break
> drakconf and translations too close to release)?

Well I've renamed it to edit-urpm-media but forgot it was decided
to rename it like that. "rpmdrake-edit-media" maybe?

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Pascal Cavy]

Le Lundi 4 Août 2003 16:52, Pascal Cavy a écrit :
> current cooker rpmdrake is unusable
>
> try playing with packages checkboxes, the behaviour is completly weird !
>
> Select one package on updates  opens the new package list
> select a package then another one  unselects the previously selected ...
> etc...

thanks for the update Guillaume, that's really better !

-- 
Pascal Cavy - VMF
__
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[Cooker] rpmdrake package selection madness

[Pascal Cavy]

current cooker rpmdrake is unusable

try playing with packages checkboxes, the behaviour is completly weird !

Select one package on updates  opens the new package list
select a package then another one  unselects the previously selected ... 
etc...

-- 
Pascal Cavy - VMF
__
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Kernel Linux version 2.4.21-3mdkenterprise

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and proxy

[Buchan Milne]

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, David Walser wrote:

> Ok, we're both wrong.  It's not curl or rpmdrake's job
> to check for this, it's urpmi's.
> 
> Imagine this scenario, you've got a proxy configured,
> which is also the location of one of your urpmi
> sources, but you have sources from other servers too. 
> You run a urpmi command to install some packages, some
> which will come from each place.  If you don't do
> http_proxy="" first, the ones from that server won't
> work, but if you do, the ones from the other servers
> won't use the proxy.
> 
> So if urpmi is installing something from the same host
> as the proxy, it shouldn't use the proxy for that package.

Or, maybe urpmi should have a per-source flag on whether to use a proxy or 
not (we assume the proxy is the same for all sources using a proxy). Why? 
Well, it's not only the proxy host that you may not want to contact via 
the proxy, it may include hosts on the same side of the proxy as you.

In the end, the problem is that there is no global equivalent of a proxy 
exclude list (although I see no reason why there shouldn't be). Of course, 
there are a few other things that would be nice to have per-source 
configuration for (my vote would be per-source gpg signatures), and it 
would be nice if they were all accessible from the source^H^H^H^H^H^Hmedia 
configuration tool.

Regards,
Buchan

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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and proxy

[David Walser]

--- David Walser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Guillaume Cottenceau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > David Walser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > I noticed that if http_proxy is set (via
> > > /etc/profile.d/proxy.sh) rpmdrake will use it. 
> > That's
> > > pretty neat.  I'm wondering if it maybe makes
> > sense to
> > > have the Software Sources Manager show that it's
> > using
> > > the proxy.  That's not why I'm writing though. 
> > I'm
> > 
> > in the sources editor, the "proxy" button shows
> that
> > configuration.
> 
> It didn't when I looked.  It looked as if rpmdrake
> wasn't configured to use a proxy.

I still think edit-urpm-sources.pl should show the
proxy.  BTW, are you ever gonna rename or symlink it
to rpmdrake-sources like we discussed long ago (you
didn't do it then because you didn't want to break
drakconf and translations too close to release)?

> > > writing, because if the location it's
> downloading
> > from
> > > is the same as the proxy, it should not use the
> > proxy,
> > > as that sometimes plain doesn't work.
> > 
> > that's curl's job I suppose..
> 
> No.  Plus you'd have to do it upstream in wget too. 
> Anyway, Unix tools in general let you do stupid
> things
> if you really want, including downloading from a
> host
> through a proxy on that host, even if that doesn't
> work.  With rpmdrake though, it's kind of doing a
> stupid thing for you w/out you explicitly asking it
> to, as it's picking up that http_proxy variable. 
> rpmdrake should check for this.

Ok, we're both wrong.  It's not curl or rpmdrake's job
to check for this, it's urpmi's.

Imagine this scenario, you've got a proxy configured,
which is also the location of one of your urpmi
sources, but you have sources from other servers too. 
You run a urpmi command to install some packages, some
which will come from each place.  If you don't do
http_proxy="" first, the ones from that server won't
work, but if you do, the ones from the other servers
won't use the proxy.

So if urpmi is installing something from the same host
as the proxy, it shouldn't use the proxy for that package.

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[Cooker] rpmdrake ftp url problem

[Joe Baker]

Mandrake 9.2 Beta 1
I installed from a network install (ftp)
When going into rpmdrake I found that 
I could not activate the checkboxes of packages to install with the
mouse, but if I first focused on the package I wanted then hit the
space bar, I could in this way check the box.

After hitting the "install" button, 
I got a "Problem during Installation" dialog box
which listed...

unable to install package:
ftp://10.0.0.93//pub/Mandkrake9.2beta1/i586/Mandrake/RPMS/php-ini-4.3.2-2mdk.noarch.rpm
and about 20 other packages listed as well.

Notice the double slash after the IP address.

I'm guessing that the installation source was saved or parsed
incorrectly from the original installation.

Sure enough!  /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg has the urls for the installation CDs
with the double slash after the ip addresses.

After fixing these ftp locations by hand the installation went well.


-Joe Baker

Re: [Cooker] RPMdrake enhancement

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I just ran across a small misfeature of RPMdrake (IRL the whole RPM 
> system, which I've touched on before). I selected (using RPMdrake) a 
> whole flock of packages to add to a base install, and between the time 
> I selected them and the time URPMI got to downloading them (maybe 8-9 
> hours, it was busy with some Texstar and PLF stuff) the update index it 
> had no longer matched the FTP site.
> 
> The consequence was that I had to re-do the entire selection process, 
> maybe a thousand packages. The same consequence would arise if (for 
> example) I was operating through a modem and it hung up and caused a 
> download failure for a key package.
> 
> What I would like is for RPMdrake to save its list of installation 
> candidates to a temporary ("autosave") file just as it commits to 
> fetching and installing stuff, and to add a "reconsider" button to 
> allow URPMI to have another stab at settling dependencies.

Yes, you underline the fact that a selection set is not as static
as it appears: it's full of dependencies. To do what you suggest,
I'd need to save requested packages (compared to packages
selected because of deps), and re-run the deps. I think this is
possible, but it seems much overkill to me (when you think of the
seldomness rpmdrake is left alone hours between selecting and
actually installing).

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] RPMdrake enhancement

[Levi Ramsey]

On Sun Jul 27 13:24 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote:
> It would also hppen for the updates directory.

However updates come so rarely (maybe 1-2 packages a week per version),
that I doubt that the problem of having the proverbial rug pulled out
from under you is too much of a problem.

-- 
Levi Ramsey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Take due notice and govern yourselves accordingly.
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Re: [Cooker] RPMdrake enhancement

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Sat, Jul 26, 2003 at 11:48:24PM -0400, Greg Meyer wrote:
> On Saturday 26 July 2003 11:24 pm, Leon Brooks wrote:
> > I just ran across a small misfeature of RPMdrake (IRL the whole RPM
> > system, which I've touched on before). I selected (using RPMdrake) a
> > whole flock of packages to add to a base install, and between the time
> > I selected them and the time URPMI got to downloading them (maybe 8-9
> > hours, it was busy with some Texstar and PLF stuff) the update index it
> > had no longer matched the FTP site.
> 
> Isn't this just a problem with cooker as the standard dist tree never changes?   
> I never see it because of my local mirror.

It would also hppen for the updates directory.

Keld

Re: [Cooker] RPMdrake enhancement

[Greg Meyer]

On Saturday 26 July 2003 11:24 pm, Leon Brooks wrote:
> I just ran across a small misfeature of RPMdrake (IRL the whole RPM
> system, which I've touched on before). I selected (using RPMdrake) a
> whole flock of packages to add to a base install, and between the time
> I selected them and the time URPMI got to downloading them (maybe 8-9
> hours, it was busy with some Texstar and PLF stuff) the update index it
> had no longer matched the FTP site.

Isn't this just a problem with cooker as the standard dist tree never changes?   
I never see it because of my local mirror.

> The consequence was that I had to re-do the entire selection process,
> maybe a thousand packages. The same consequence would arise if (for
> example) I was operating through a modem and it hung up and caused a
> download failure for a key package.

Would I ever be doing that many packages over a modem connection?


-- 
/g

"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside
a dog it's too dark to read" -Groucho Marx

[Cooker] RPMdrake enhancement

[Leon Brooks]

I just ran across a small misfeature of RPMdrake (IRL the whole RPM 
system, which I've touched on before). I selected (using RPMdrake) a 
whole flock of packages to add to a base install, and between the time 
I selected them and the time URPMI got to downloading them (maybe 8-9 
hours, it was busy with some Texstar and PLF stuff) the update index it 
had no longer matched the FTP site.

The consequence was that I had to re-do the entire selection process, 
maybe a thousand packages. The same consequence would arise if (for 
example) I was operating through a modem and it hung up and caused a 
download failure for a key package.

What I would like is for RPMdrake to save its list of installation 
candidates to a temporary ("autosave") file just as it commits to 
fetching and installing stuff, and to add a "reconsider" button to 
allow URPMI to have another stab at settling dependencies.

What this would do in the first instance is allow you to load up all of 
your selections again if your installation is interrupted for any 
reason, and in the second instance you could fetch a new update list 
and get RPMdrake to have another go at resolving dependencies with the 
updated package list, yet not lose your selections.

Even if the "reconsider" option didn't understand what happened when a 
package was upgraded, the normal URPMI dependency logic should sort it 
all out as long as you were as vague as possible (consistent with 
distinguishing between, for example, tex and mdk packages with the same 
base name). Even if it didn't, you would only need to deal with the few 
changed packages, not *everything*.

Cheers; Leon

[Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-25mdk doesn't want to select packages.

[andre]

Subject says everything

ps. the previous version still had the memory problem of wanting to 
in/uninstall packages which were deselected

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-25mdk doesn't want to select packages.

[Thierry Vignaud]

andre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Subject says everything

uses space for now.
i'll investigate it.

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk broken

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Robert Fox wrote:

> Thanks for your clarification.  You may be correct, but is could also be
> that I did a fresh Cooker install a few days ago and the Perl libraries
> were possibly not all up to date on the main mirror!
>
> Is there any solution for this?  Any quick fix?

Update.

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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk broken

[Robert Fox]

On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 12:38, Duncan wrote:
> On Wed 16 Jul 2003 03:36, Robert Fox posted as excerpted below:
> > rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk barfs when I try to run it:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] rfox]# rpmdrake
> ...
> > Can't locate object method "STRING" via package "Gtk2::GType" (perhaps
> > you forgot to load "Gtk2::GType"?) at /usr/sbin/rpmdrake line 625.
> 
> I have the same thing.. because I ignored the "conflicts" warning between some 
> perl-GTK binding library and rpmdrake.
> 
> There are currently two very similarly named libraries.  One is the old style 
> perl inline bindings, the other the new XS bindings.  (What that means in 
> English I'm not sure, but.. )  They are incompatible.  Currently some 
> packages are updated to the new version, some still require the old version.  
> Thus, not all packages will work no matter what.  I chose to take the 
> conflicts and disable rpmdrake as I generally use urpmi anyway, so having 
> rpmdrake isn't a big deal.  I figured that way I'd have the new versions, 
> what there were, anyway, installed, and could install the others when they 
> updated.  After the upgrade, I attempted rpmdrake out of curiousity, and got 
> the errors you mentioned, so that's the issue.  I'm surprised you didn't 
> connect it to the force-install you apparently did, or the warning urpmi gave 
> about it if that's what you used, as I did, with its allow-force option.

Thanks for your clarification.  You may be correct, but is could also be
that I did a fresh Cooker install a few days ago and the Perl libraries
were possibly not all up to date on the main mirror!

Is there any solution for this?  Any quick fix?

Thx,
R.Fox

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk broken

[Robert Fox]

On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 12:38, Duncan wrote:
> On Wed 16 Jul 2003 03:36, Robert Fox posted as excerpted below:
> > rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk barfs when I try to run it:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] rfox]# rpmdrake
> ...
> > Can't locate object method "STRING" via package "Gtk2::GType" (perhaps
> > you forgot to load "Gtk2::GType"?) at /usr/sbin/rpmdrake line 625.
> 
> I have the same thing.. because I ignored the "conflicts" warning between some 
> perl-GTK binding library and rpmdrake.
> 
> There are currently two very similarly named libraries.  One is the old style 
> perl inline bindings, the other the new XS bindings.  (What that means in 
> English I'm not sure, but.. )  They are incompatible.  Currently some 
> packages are updated to the new version, some still require the old version.  
> Thus, not all packages will work no matter what.  I chose to take the 
> conflicts and disable rpmdrake as I generally use urpmi anyway, so having 
> rpmdrake isn't a big deal.  I figured that way I'd have the new versions, 
> what there were, anyway, installed, and could install the others when they 
> updated.  After the upgrade, I attempted rpmdrake out of curiousity, and got 
> the errors you mentioned, so that's the issue.  I'm surprised you didn't 
> connect it to the force-install you apparently did, or the warning urpmi gave 
> about it if that's what you used, as I did, with its allow-force option.

Thanks for your clarification.  You may be correct, but is could also be
that I did a fresh Cooker install a few days ago and the Perl libraries
were possibly not all up to date on the main mirror!

Is there any solution for this?  Any quick fix?

Thx,
R.Fox

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk broken

[Duncan]

On Wed 16 Jul 2003 03:36, Robert Fox posted as excerpted below:
> rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk barfs when I try to run it:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] rfox]# rpmdrake
...
> Can't locate object method "STRING" via package "Gtk2::GType" (perhaps
> you forgot to load "Gtk2::GType"?) at /usr/sbin/rpmdrake line 625.

I have the same thing.. because I ignored the "conflicts" warning between some 
perl-GTK binding library and rpmdrake.

There are currently two very similarly named libraries.  One is the old style 
perl inline bindings, the other the new XS bindings.  (What that means in 
English I'm not sure, but.. )  They are incompatible.  Currently some 
packages are updated to the new version, some still require the old version.  
Thus, not all packages will work no matter what.  I chose to take the 
conflicts and disable rpmdrake as I generally use urpmi anyway, so having 
rpmdrake isn't a big deal.  I figured that way I'd have the new versions, 
what there were, anyway, installed, and could install the others when they 
updated.  After the upgrade, I attempted rpmdrake out of curiousity, and got 
the errors you mentioned, so that's the issue.  I'm surprised you didn't 
connect it to the force-install you apparently did, or the warning urpmi gave 
about it if that's what you used, as I did, with its allow-force option.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

[Cooker] rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk broken

[Robert Fox]

rpmdrake-2.1-24mdk barfs when I try to run it:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] rfox]# rpmdrake
examining synthesis file [/var/lib/urpmi/synthesis.hdlist.Installation
CD (ftp1).cz]
examining synthesis file [/var/lib/urpmi/synthesis.hdlist.Contrib CD
(ftp3).cz]
would install instead of upgrade package kernel-2.4.21.3mdk-1-1mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package
kernel2.4-marcelo-2.4.21-2mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package
kernel-enterprise-2.4.21.3mdk-1-1mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package
kernel-secure-2.4.21.3mdk-1-1mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package
kernel-smp-2.4.21.3mdk-1-1mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package kernel22-smp-2.2.20-9mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package
kernel-linus2.2-2.2.20-4mdk.i586
would install instead of upgrade package kernel22-2.2.20-9mdk.i586
Can't locate object method "STRING" via package "Gtk2::GType" (perhaps
you forgot to load "Gtk2::GType"?) at /usr/sbin/rpmdrake line 625.


Thx,
R. Fox

-- 
Robert Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Fox Consulting Services

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake

[M. Ignacio Monge]

El s?, 28-06-2003 a las 03:41, Bernard Varaine escribió:

get this error after upgrading as of cooker last night

Can't call method "signal_connect" on an undefined value at
/usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm line 1282.


BErnard




This probrelm is solved in new cooker package.


M. Ignacio Monge García







Residente de Medicina Intensiva
Hospital de Jerez de la Frontera (España)

http://virgilioshome.homelinux.org/~virgilio
[EMAIL PROTECTED]














<>

[Cooker] rpmdrake

[Bernard Varaine]

get this error after upgrading as of cooker last night

Can't call method "signal_connect" on an undefined value at
/usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm line 1282.


BErnard




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2003-06-27 at 14:16, FACORAT Fabrice wrote:

> True.
> On top of that we can think a little bit about rpmdrake and linux
> system. With linux user can't easily install an app if the app is :
>  1°/ a package that requires others libs

? That's exactly what rpmdrake is for.

>  2°/ not a rpm provide by mdk ( as others rpms may not work well because
> of provides/requires/etc ... pb )

This is not something we should "fix". Instead, users need to understand
why it is not in fact a problem.

> What about a foreign/not mdk package ? ... urpmi/gurpmi. Why ? because :

No. Making it easier to install non-mdk packages is simply making it
easier to screw up the system, so make it as hard as possible.

> 1°/ It will try to install this package and the required dependencies if
> possible. If it failed ... sorry it's linux, not windows.

dependencies are not a sufficient safeguard for foreign packages,
because of such things as overly fuzzy dependencies (say a Red Hat
package just says it needs libxyz, because there's only one version of
libxyz in Red Hat, so it installs happily on Mandrake, where there's a
completely different version of libxyz, then crashes on run).

> 2°/ it simple

No. See above.

> We try to imitate windows but it's impossible with linux.
> On windows you have a file that normally have all that it need inside it
> ( dll or static ) and put them in his directory or use standard windows
> lib. If you miss something ( seldom ), just grab the right file, most of
> the time it's just the new DirectX.
> The nightmare with windows was the fact that some apps override some
> windows systems dll and of course the registry ( what a mess ). But
> besides that install an app was easy. Want a game ? put the CD,
> setup.exe and during install process if it need new directX it provide
> it for u or u can simply install it.
> 
> On linux ? take the rpm/sh. arf need libGL.x.y-z and your sys have
> libGL.x.t-u and several libs depends on it. upgrade ? sometimes some
> apps requires specific version of a lib -> no way. The solution ? the
> game should provide everything, put this in his own directory or in
> /usr/local or in /opt . Linux libs change quickly and often break
> compatibility somewhere ( API, ABI for C++, behaviour) because most of
> them are not mature yet.

You're simply talking about static compilation, which is exactly what
commercially distributed, closed-source games for Linux do. It's really
far less of a problem than it's made out to be. Quake 3 works perfectly
well on Linux, for instance - it just has all the stuff it needs
statically compiled into it, you drop a copy on any remotely modern
distribution with sufficient hardware and it will run perfectly.

> To sum up it's more freedom and openess ( Opensource, free software, ...
> ) for less freedom ( use only what your distro provide you if you're a
> newbies or else you will have to dig inside things more complicated )

Which is correct for now. Until it's less dangerous to install non-mdk
packages, we should not make it easier to do so. Of course, it would be
very nice to work towards *making* it less dangerous, but get the two in
the right order. :)
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Eric Fernandez]

> 
> PS : please, no one, no offense, but I'm becoming rather tired to
>  discuss that point again and again. I think points are
>  clear, enough time has been lost on that, and we now have
>  other interesting subjects to discuss.

No offense taken, fair answer :)
Do the changes, and we will discuss when we can test the new rpmdrake then.
Keep the good work.

Eric

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Eric Fernandez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> >Yes, why not having rpmdrake-1 back? :))
> 
> :)
> But actually the solution to make rpmdrake installer search in
> installed by default is, finally, exactly what rpmdrake 1 was
> doing !! You will have both installed and to-be-installed

"exactly", I don't believe so, no. have a look again at rpmdrake1
and rpmdrake2 initial GUI appearance.

> packages in the same search list !
> The point was : why would newbies be confused by an interface
> that makes the package browsing, and then offers
> install/uninstall options ? Don't you think that make the
> installed packages appear in the rpmdrake installer even more
> confusing ?

i don't think so (though once implemented, it can be removed if
it really sux).

PS : please, no one, no offense, but I'm becoming rather tired to
 discuss that point again and again. I think points are
 clear, enough time has been lost on that, and we now have
 other interesting subjects to discuss.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

FACORAT Fabrice wrote:
> Le jeu 26/06/2003 à 10:09, Eric Fernandez a écrit :
>
> True.
> On top of that we can think a little bit about rpmdrake and linux
> system. With linux user can't easily install an app if the app is :
>  1°/ a package that requires others libs
>  2°/ not a rpm provide by mdk ( as others rpms may not work well because
> of provides/requires/etc ... pb )

???

If a package has all it's provides provided by packages available to
urpmi, double click on the downloaded rpm, and gurpmi will install
everything for you.

>
> To my mind rpmdrake should move to something like Red Carpert/Click'n
> Run but free. it means that rpmdrake should be like a repository package
> administration tools. For configured sources it show what is available
> and precise if it's installed or not, show information, where they came
> from (source, or unknow for external rpms ).
>

It does, but at present, either installed, or not installed packages
(not both).

> What about a foreign/not mdk package ? ... urpmi/gurpmi. Why ? because :
>
> 1°/ It will try to install this package and the required dependencies if
> possible. If it failed ... sorry it's linux, not windows.
> 2°/ it simple
>

???

> We try to imitate windows but it's impossible with linux.
> On windows you have a file that normally have all that it need inside it
> ( dll or static ) and put them in his directory or use standard windows
> lib. If you miss something ( seldom ), just grab the right file, most of
> the time it's just the new DirectX.
> The nightmare with windows was the fact that some apps override some
> windows systems dll and of course the registry ( what a mess ). But
> besides that install an app was easy. Want a game ? put the CD,
> setup.exe and during install process if it need new directX it provide
> it for u or u can simply install it.
>

You're not clear, but yes, dll hell is one reason we don't like windows.

> On linux ? take the rpm/sh. arf need libGL.x.y-z and your sys have
> libGL.x.t-u and several libs depends on it. upgrade ? sometimes some
> apps requires specific version of a lib -> no way. The solution ? the
> game should provide everything, put this in his own directory or in
> /usr/local or in /opt . Linux libs change quickly and often break
> compatibility somewhere ( API, ABI for C++, behaviour) because most of
> them are not mature yet.
>

*some* libs change rapidly, most that anyone would want to put in
proprietary app don't. And such a package should

1)Provide the libs they compiled against
2)Specifically prevent rpm dependencies on these libraries
3)In the %post, check for the required versions, if not, ensure they
will be preloaded via LD_LIBRARY_PATH when starting up the app.

> We have to cope with this. A distribution should provide an integrated
> solution with normally everything that the user will need. If newer
> version of prog are available, the user buy new CD set ( or dl iso ) and
> upgrade, or if possible the user launch is repository package
> administration tools and grab needed package.
> Normally the user should not pick rpm outside of what the distro
> provides, or pick tar.gz. If the user did it he will have to assume and
> cope with this.
>
> To sum up it's more freedom and openess ( Opensource, free software, ...
> ) for less freedom ( use only what your distro provide you if you're a
> newbies or else you will have to dig inside things more complicated )
>

IMHO, these issues are only of relevance to proprietary apps, and the
packages for those apps should know what they are doing. If they don't,
that's their problem, not ours.

Buchan

- --
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Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202
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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[FACORAT Fabrice]

Le jeu 26/06/2003 à 10:09, Eric Fernandez a écrit :
> But actually the solution to make rpmdrake installer search in installed 
> by default is, finally, exactly what rpmdrake 1 was doing !! You will 
> have both installed and to-be-installed packages in the same search list !
> The point was : why would newbies be confused by an interface that makes 
> the package browsing, and then offers install/uninstall options ? Don't 
> you think that make the installed packages appear in the rpmdrake 
> installer even more confusing ?

True.
On top of that we can think a little bit about rpmdrake and linux
system. With linux user can't easily install an app if the app is :
 1°/ a package that requires others libs
 2°/ not a rpm provide by mdk ( as others rpms may not work well because
of provides/requires/etc ... pb )

To my mind rpmdrake should move to something like Red Carpert/Click'n
Run but free. it means that rpmdrake should be like a repository package
administration tools. For configured sources it show what is available
and precise if it's installed or not, show information, where they came
from (source, or unknow for external rpms ).

What about a foreign/not mdk package ? ... urpmi/gurpmi. Why ? because :

1°/ It will try to install this package and the required dependencies if
possible. If it failed ... sorry it's linux, not windows.
2°/ it simple

We try to imitate windows but it's impossible with linux.
On windows you have a file that normally have all that it need inside it
( dll or static ) and put them in his directory or use standard windows
lib. If you miss something ( seldom ), just grab the right file, most of
the time it's just the new DirectX.
The nightmare with windows was the fact that some apps override some
windows systems dll and of course the registry ( what a mess ). But
besides that install an app was easy. Want a game ? put the CD,
setup.exe and during install process if it need new directX it provide
it for u or u can simply install it.

On linux ? take the rpm/sh. arf need libGL.x.y-z and your sys have
libGL.x.t-u and several libs depends on it. upgrade ? sometimes some
apps requires specific version of a lib -> no way. The solution ? the
game should provide everything, put this in his own directory or in
/usr/local or in /opt . Linux libs change quickly and often break
compatibility somewhere ( API, ABI for C++, behaviour) because most of
them are not mature yet.

We have to cope with this. A distribution should provide an integrated
solution with normally everything that the user will need. If newer
version of prog are available, the user buy new CD set ( or dl iso ) and
upgrade, or if possible the user launch is repository package
administration tools and grab needed package.
Normally the user should not pick rpm outside of what the distro
provides, or pick tar.gz. If the user did it he will have to assume and
cope with this.

To sum up it's more freedom and openess ( Opensource, free software, ...
) for less freedom ( use only what your distro provide you if you're a
newbies or else you will have to dig inside things more complicated )

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Eric Fernandez]

Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:

"Good idea" was rather refering to showing installed software in
searches, not specifically to providing a checkbox option for it.
And I said I think best solution would be to do it by default.
 

Why not doing a "browse packages" interface, independent from any
install/uninstall consideration, with all information we can find in the
install rpmdrake. And then depending on the fact the package is already
installed or not, there would be an install/remove button. You may even add
   

Yes, why not having rpmdrake-1 back? :))

:)
But actually the solution to make rpmdrake installer search in installed 
by default is, finally, exactly what rpmdrake 1 was doing !! You will 
have both installed and to-be-installed packages in the same search list !
The point was : why would newbies be confused by an interface that makes 
the package browsing, and then offers install/uninstall options ? Don't 
you think that make the installed packages appear in the rpmdrake 
installer even more confusing ?

Eric

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

"Eric Fernandez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> >> -It would be nice if by default rpmdrake would show software that is
> >> installed. IMHO, there should be an options dialog, which has things
> >> like "show installed software in searches".
> >
> >It's a good idea[1] but I still don't see how to integrate well
> >an options dialog. I don't want to add a menubar nor a toolbar
> >just for that. I was thinking I was going to show installed
> >software as well in searches by default, I think it should be ok
> >for beginners.
> 
> Yes it is a good idea... and not. If a new checkbox "search for installed
> softwares" has to be added to an interface which is especially made for
> installing software, it demonstrates there is a problem with the interface,
> and reviewers will criticise it. Then why not making appear this button in
> the uninstall rpmdrake too ? And I expect so many newbies on the
> mandrakeexpert or mailing lists asking why there is such a button.

"Good idea" was rather refering to showing installed software in
searches, not specifically to providing a checkbox option for it.
And I said I think best solution would be to do it by default.
 
> Why not doing a "browse packages" interface, independent from any
> install/uninstall consideration, with all information we can find in the
> install rpmdrake. And then depending on the fact the package is already
> installed or not, there would be an install/remove button. You may even add

Yes, why not having rpmdrake-1 back? :))

> a filter "only show installed packages" and "only show non-installed
> packages". I really don't see why this would be difficult for beginners.
> Instead of having two rpmdrake icons in the MCC with a + and a - symbol, you
> would have only one +/- that would do the job. I really cannot understand
> why it would be more complicated for newbies. And IMO, it would be more
> confusing to have one "show installed packages" checkbox that would make
> them appear as a tree at the end of non-installed packages.
> 
> Eric
> 
> 

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Lyvim Xaphir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> (utilizing user input).  I personally believe this was a decision handed
> down from management ("ergonomics team") and not a developer's decision;
> which I stand ready to be corrected on this from Buchan, GC, or whomever
> else may have better historic info.

Not really. Actually the "ergonomics team" for rpmdrake2 was made
of David Baudens, who is our "ergnomics/UI" head/designer (I
don't know how to say it, please David excuse any lack of
precision), Warly (more or less, as the head-of-distribution),
Francois Pons (as urpmi master, and chief-of-myself), and myself
(as the developer who was going to implement it). We had more or
less convergent ideas when it went to trying to simplify the UI
for beginners.

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[FACORAT Fabrice]

Le mar 24/06/2003 à 11:15, Eric Fernandez a écrit :

> Why not doing a "browse packages" interface, independent from any
> install/uninstall consideration, with all information we can find in the
> install rpmdrake. And then depending on the fact the package is already
> installed or not, there would be an install/remove button. You may even add
> a filter "only show installed packages" and "only show non-installed
> packages". I really don't see why this would be difficult for beginners.
> Instead of having two rpmdrake icons in the MCC with a + and a - symbol, you
> would have only one +/- that would do the job. I really cannot understand
> why it would be more complicated for newbies. And IMO, it would be more
> confusing to have one "show installed packages" checkbox that would make
> them appear as a tree at the end of non-installed packages.
> 

I agree with u, but GC point me out the fact that it will be a pain to
maintain such an app :(
So someone decide to do it on his own, or wee will have to cope with
this

--- Parce que vous etes un grand seigneur, vous vous croyez un grand
genie ! -- Beaumarchais, Le Mariage de Figaro

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Eric Fernandez]

>> -It would be nice if by default rpmdrake would show software that is
>> installed. IMHO, there should be an options dialog, which has things
>> like "show installed software in searches".
>
>It's a good idea[1] but I still don't see how to integrate well
>an options dialog. I don't want to add a menubar nor a toolbar
>just for that. I was thinking I was going to show installed
>software as well in searches by default, I think it should be ok
>for beginners.

Yes it is a good idea... and not. If a new checkbox "search for installed
softwares" has to be added to an interface which is especially made for
installing software, it demonstrates there is a problem with the interface,
and reviewers will criticise it. Then why not making appear this button in
the uninstall rpmdrake too ? And I expect so many newbies on the
mandrakeexpert or mailing lists asking why there is such a button.

Why not doing a "browse packages" interface, independent from any
install/uninstall consideration, with all information we can find in the
install rpmdrake. And then depending on the fact the package is already
installed or not, there would be an install/remove button. You may even add
a filter "only show installed packages" and "only show non-installed
packages". I really don't see why this would be difficult for beginners.
Instead of having two rpmdrake icons in the MCC with a + and a - symbol, you
would have only one +/- that would do the job. I really cannot understand
why it would be more complicated for newbies. And IMO, it would be more
confusing to have one "show installed packages" checkbox that would make
them appear as a tree at the end of non-installed packages.

Eric

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Simon Oosthoek]

On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 05:02:49PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On 17 Jun 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> 
> > > mandrakeclub (or do a telephone poll for registered users, but that will 
> > > be more expensive).
> > 
> > I don't like mandrakeclub much.
> why? This is ofcourse a bit oftopic. But club gives you an excellent few 
> of the (paying) user experience of the distro. Mandrake lacks resources 
> currently. I assume they also lack resources for doing market research of 
> individual users. Being actively involved in the club, would tell you what 
> users interest the most (it ofcourse also costs too much time for every 
> cooker to do it, but it is in contrast to this list, feedback of non-tech 
> users).
> Ok, above only explains 1 possible advantage of club, that ofcourse does 
> not mean you have to like or dislike it.
> 

If I were an AOL user I'd say "me too", but I'll expand a bit ;-)

I'm a silver member of mandrakeclub and I rarely visit the site and find
something useful there. Maybe I'm not the targeted user of mandrake club,
since I know most things that come up in the forums and the security updates
announces come in via e-mail. Voting for RPM's is nice, but hardly something
that should be available all the time. 

The forums have not nearly enough presence of mandrake employees, so it has
degenerated in a shouting competition where newbies cry that things aren't
working properly (mostly organisational) and "loyal" members saying the
same, but more politely. I believe mandrakeusers.org provides more value
than club does and for free too.

The software that is members-only is so hard to reach that I don't bother
anymore, getting it directly from the source is easier. (with the exception
of a few real commercial ones, but staroffice is not part of that anymore,
so why bother)

So I'm a member, mainly because I don't want mandrake to die!

Cheers,

Simon

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake: could the changelog appear above the file list?

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 02:08, Andrew M Neitzke wrote:
> Since we're discussing rpmdrake, I would like to suggest a much smaller
> change which would save me a significant amount of time.  Sometimes I want
> to skip upgrades to large packages when the changes are relatively
> inconsequential.  So I very often want to look at the changelog.  At the
> moment, to look at the changelog from within rpmdrake I have to first
> scroll past the (long!) list of files in the package, which I almost never
> want to see (and on the rare occasions when I do want to see it, I
> generally want to subject it to some sort of processing rather than just
> browsing it by eye, anyway.)  Would it be possible to change the order in
> which information is presented in rpmdrake, so that the changelog would
> appear above the list of files?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] download]$ rpmdrake --help
Usage: rpmdrake [OPTION]...
  --no-confirmation  don't ask first confirmation question in
MandrakeUpdate mode
  --no-verify-rpmdon't verify packages signatures
  --changelog-first  display changelog before filelist in the
description window
  --merge-all-rpmnew propose to merge all .rpmnew/.rpmsave files
found
[EMAIL PROTECTED] download]$

--changelog-first has been there for several versions now...
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed * software

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 14:37, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 05:54, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > No, Lyvim. For everyone else on this list, this is a simple practical
> > matter of what is the best way for rpmdrake to function. No-one on this
> > list, to the best of my knowledge, being an automaton, we all inevitably
> > have different ideas on this topic. It's just *you* who seems to want to
> > turn it into a Biblical struggle. GIVE IT UP.
> 
> It was never a simple matter because it involved the public at large, it
> *is* a free public debate involving history and different ideas about
> the best way for rpmdrake to function, and the fact that we all have

Everything to do with Mandrake involves the public at large exactly as
much as this issue, purely insofar as it's "the public at large" that
uses rpmdrake. The idea that Mandrake have some special obligation to
consult "the public at large" as to how to design software is your
invention. Your usage of the term "free public debate" is the kind of
thing I find intensely irritating about your tone throughout this
debate; it's speechifying nonsense designed to elevate the debate to
lofty abstracts and allow you to go on in your grandiose fashion about
things that are rather irrelevant to the actual software.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Steffen Barszus]

Am Samstag, 21. Juni 2003 01:38 schrieb Pierre Jarillon:
> Le Samedi 21 Juin 2003 00:39, Steffen Barszus a écrit :
> > 1) synaptic
> > -
> > ( a newer screenshot from debian-3.0 :
> > http://linuxinstall.org/screenshots/release-3.0/synaptic.jpg)
> >
> > It is for softwaremanagment , includes as far as I can see source
> > managment and looks very powerfull to me.
>
> Yes ! This is a good GUI.
> It can be improved ;-) Mandrake if better for this :
> - mandrake 9.1 allows to create a liste of medias
> - mandrake 9.1 allows to select the medias (CD, contribs, updates...)
>

yep

> Synaptic would be better with a forth tab called "How to launch ?"
> - from menu (ever include or not)
> - from console
> - automatic when needed (ie: plug-in)
> - daemon
> Often newbies ask "How to launch ?".  They ask too "where is the .exe ?"

nope. Again, synaptic is not for newbies, current rpmdrake not for advanced 
user. Mix both and you will get something suboptimal. 

Steffen

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Steffen Barszus]

Am Samstag, 21. Juni 2003 01:49 schrieb w9ya:
> That's what I was saying !
>
> (Now be prepared for some flames.)
>
> Bob

Never intended to flame. Its just my opinion from "outside" the discussion.

Steffen

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Steffen Barszus]

Am Samstag, 21. Juni 2003 02:49 schrieb Lyvim Xaphir:

> This is absolutely correct.
>
> > Looking to the "outside world" only to interfaces are somewhat comparable
> > to rpmdrake-1.4-alike.
>
> Correct again.  Look at Windows 98SR2 at the software "Add/Remove
> Programs" applet in the control panel and you will see this is true.  It
> is a kindergarten version of standard rpmdrake.

Never ever compare Linux with windows for design decission. This control-panel 
is crap if you think about it. Every app has its own interface to install but 
a central interface to remove. To make it worse, half of them have too an own 
interface to remove and a quarter of them you will never get clean away from 
your system. Further you don't have the same needs on that OS. As I pointed 
out. The only somewhat comparable UIs are Yast2 and synaptic (at least what I 
know about).

> The purpose behind beginner rpmdrake seems to have been to out-simplify
> XP rather than seeking a unique application match to the users
> (utilizing user input).  I personally believe this was a decision handed
> down from management ("ergonomics team") and not a developer's decision;
> which I stand ready to be corrected on this from Buchan, GC, or whomever
> else may have better historic info.

That haven't to be something bad. In comercial software engineering it is 
rather normal that developers don't make design decsissions. What I wanted to 
point out is if urpmi is enough for advanced user's only interface. I sort of 
dislike your complaining kind of speaking and your assumption to be right. 

Steffen

[Cooker] rpmdrake: could the changelog appear above the file list?

[Andrew M Neitzke]

Since we're discussing rpmdrake, I would like to suggest a much smaller
change which would save me a significant amount of time.  Sometimes I want
to skip upgrades to large packages when the changes are relatively
inconsequential.  So I very often want to look at the changelog.  At the
moment, to look at the changelog from within rpmdrake I have to first
scroll past the (long!) list of files in the package, which I almost never
want to see (and on the rare occasions when I do want to see it, I
generally want to subject it to some sort of processing rather than just
browsing it by eye, anyway.)  Would it be possible to change the order in
which information is presented in rpmdrake, so that the changelog would
appear above the list of files?

-Andy

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Lyvim Xaphir]

On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 18:39, Steffen Barszus wrote:
> Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 21:36 schrieb Buchan Milne:
> >
> > IMHO, the fact that you need 17 screenshots says enough about it's
> > complexity, and although there seem to be some nice features
> > (disk-free-space meter and it seems to be able to show details from
> > different versions of packages side-by-side) and it looks professional
> > in some respects, is IMHO a bit complex. But I guess I should actually
> > try it (but I don't think I will have time ..).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Buchan
> 
> 
> I'm following the thread since a while and I'm not sure yet what to think 
> about it. I'm under the impression that it seems not clear who is the 
> targeted person that tool is designed for. If it is for newbies the interface 
> how it currently is can be fine, although I would not separate that hard 
> between software installation and deinstallation. Software management is one 
> task and can not be split. What I dislike is to list installed packages in 
> the softwareinstaller. This is in total contrast to the actual design 
> decision. It obsoletes the complete idea behind it. I'm against such a half 
> made step. Either there is one interface for both and the separation idea is 
> not working or they are separated. 
> From the discussion I read it seems clear to me that the simplified interface 
> does not work for people that have just a bit of knowledge. So having it that 
> simplified would require a full featured software management tool for the more 
> advanced users. This is what I read out of the wish of having the old 
> rpmdrake back and the discussion in this thread. 

This is absolutely correct.

> 
> Looking to the "outside world" only to interfaces are somewhat comparable to 
> rpmdrake-1.4-alike. 

Correct again.  Look at Windows 98SR2 at the software "Add/Remove
Programs" applet in the control panel and you will see this is true.  It
is a kindergarten version of standard rpmdrake.

The purpose behind beginner rpmdrake seems to have been to out-simplify
XP rather than seeking a unique application match to the users
(utilizing user input).  I personally believe this was a decision handed
down from management ("ergonomics team") and not a developer's decision;
which I stand ready to be corrected on this from Buchan, GC, or whomever
else may have better historic info.

> 
> 1) synaptic 
> -
> ( a newer screenshot from debian-3.0 : 
> http://linuxinstall.org/screenshots/release-3.0/synaptic.jpg)
> 
> It is for software management , includes as far as I can see source management 
> and looks very powerful to me. 
> 
> 2) yast2-softwareinstaller
> --
> 
> I guess the screenshots are saying enough. 
> 
> What in both is the same: They don't try to hide complexity. The only 
> alternative currently for power-user is to use urpmi. And this is what people 
> complain about. 
> 
> I can only say don't make half decisions. The screenshot of synaptic shows 
> exactly how a power-user tool could looks like. It looks clean but powerful. 
> Adding complexity to a newbie-tool is awkward and breaking own made design 
> decisions is bad. 
> 
> Steffen

--LX

-- 

Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk   Linux Mandrake 9.1
Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk  Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk
Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[w9ya]

That's what I was saying !

(Now be prepared for some flames.)

Bob


On Friday 20 June 2003 05:39 pm, Steffen Barszus wrote:
> Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 21:36 schrieb Buchan Milne:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Steffen Barszus wrote:
> > > Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 20:26 schrieb Buchan Milne:
> > >
> > > [... UI review ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SuSE 8.1 as far as I understood.  (http://lwn.net/Articles/10061/)
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > IMHO, the fact that you need 17 screenshots says enough about it's
> > complexity, and although there seem to be some nice features
> > (disk-free-space meter and it seems to be able to show details from
> > different versions of packages side-by-side) and it looks professional
> > in some respects, is IMHO a bit complex. But I guess I should actually
> > try it (but I don't think I will have time ..).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Buchan
>
> I'm following the thread since a while and I'm not sure yet what to think
> about it. I'm under the impression that it seems not clear who is the
> targeted person that tool is designed for. If it is for newbies the
> interface how it currently is can be fine, alltough I would not seperat
> that hard between software installation and deinstallation.
> Softwaremanagment is one task and can not be splitted. What I dislike is to
> list installed packages in the softwareinstaller. This is in total contrast
> to the actual design decission. It obsoltes the complete idea behind it.
> I'm against such a half made step. Either there is one interface for both
> and the seperation idea is not working or they are seperated.
> From the discussion I read it seems clear to me that the simplified
> interface does not work for people that have just a bit of knowledge. So
> having it that simplified would require a full featured softwaremanagment
> tool for the more advanced users. This is what I read out of the wish of
> having the old rpmdrake back and the discussion in this thread.
>
> Looking to the "outside world" only to interfaces are somewhat comperable
> to rpmdrake-1.4-alike.
>
> 1) synaptic
> -
> ( a newer screenshot from debian-3.0 :
> http://linuxinstall.org/screenshots/release-3.0/synaptic.jpg)
>
> It is for softwaremanagment , includes as far as I can see source managment
> and looks very powerfull to me.
>
> 2) yast2-softwareinstaller
> --
>
> I guess the screenshots are saying enough.
>
> What in both is the same: They don't try to hide complexity. The only
> alternative currently for power-user is to use urpmi. And this is what
> people complain about.
>
> I can only say don't make half decissions. The screenshot of synaptic shows
> exactly how a power-user tool could looks like. It looks clean but
> powerfull. Adding complexity to a newbie-tool is awkward and breaking own
> made design decissions is bad.
>
> Steffen

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Pierre Jarillon]

Le Samedi 21 Juin 2003 00:39, Steffen Barszus a écrit :

> 1) synaptic
> -
> ( a newer screenshot from debian-3.0 :
> http://linuxinstall.org/screenshots/release-3.0/synaptic.jpg)
>
> It is for softwaremanagment , includes as far as I can see source managment
> and looks very powerfull to me.

Yes ! This is a good GUI.
It can be improved ;-) Mandrake if better for this :
- mandrake 9.1 allows to create a liste of medias
- mandrake 9.1 allows to select the medias (CD, contribs, updates...)

Synaptic would be better with a forth tab called "How to launch ?"
- from menu (ever include or not)
- from console
- automatic when needed (ie: plug-in)
- daemon
Often newbies ask "How to launch ?".  They ask too "where is the .exe ?"

-- 
Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/
Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Steffen Barszus]

Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 21:36 schrieb Buchan Milne:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Steffen Barszus wrote:
> > Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 20:26 schrieb Buchan Milne:
> >
> > [... UI review ]
> >


> > SuSE 8.1 as far as I understood.  (http://lwn.net/Articles/10061/)
>
> Thanks.
>
> IMHO, the fact that you need 17 screenshots says enough about it's
> complexity, and although there seem to be some nice features
> (disk-free-space meter and it seems to be able to show details from
> different versions of packages side-by-side) and it looks professional
> in some respects, is IMHO a bit complex. But I guess I should actually
> try it (but I don't think I will have time ..).
>
> Regards,
> Buchan


I'm following the thread since a while and I'm not sure yet what to think 
about it. I'm under the impression that it seems not clear who is the 
targeted person that tool is designed for. If it is for newbies the interface 
how it currently is can be fine, alltough I would not seperat that hard 
between software installation and deinstallation. Softwaremanagment is one 
task and can not be splitted. What I dislike is to list installed packages in 
the softwareinstaller. This is in total contrast to the actual design 
decission. It obsoltes the complete idea behind it. I'm against such a half 
made step. Either there is one interface for both and the seperation idea is 
not working or they are seperated. 
>From the discussion I read it seems clear to me that the simplified interface 
does not work for people that have just a bit of knowledge. So having it that 
simplified would require a full featured softwaremanagment tool for the more 
advanced users. This is what I read out of the wish of having the old 
rpmdrake back and the discussion in this thread. 

Looking to the "outside world" only to interfaces are somewhat comperable to 
rpmdrake-1.4-alike. 

1) synaptic 
-
( a newer screenshot from debian-3.0 : 
http://linuxinstall.org/screenshots/release-3.0/synaptic.jpg)

It is for softwaremanagment , includes as far as I can see source managment 
and looks very powerfull to me. 

2) yast2-softwareinstaller
--

I guess the screenshots are saying enough. 

What in both is the same: They don't try to hide complexity. The only 
alternative currently for power-user is to use urpmi. And this is what people 
complain about. 

I can only say don't make half decissions. The screenshot of synaptic shows 
exactly how a power-user tool could looks like. It looks clean but powerfull. 
Adding complexity to a newbie-tool is awkward and breaking own made design 
decissions is bad. 

Steffen

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Buchan Milne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> BTW, if anything constructive is going to come from this, someone needs
> to put this somewhere where it won't be forgotten, either in a wiki of
> some description (cooker?) or in bugzilla (BTW, this is one of my issues
>  with hugs discussions on cooker, they get lost if no-one takes the
> effort to document them, which is possibly why bugzilla or the cooker
> wiki is a better forum).

As for me, I'm ok with current situation:

- mandrake developer agrees, she implements the feature/change
  and says so in the changelog and in the cvs of the app

- mandrake developer doesn't agree, the information is somewhat
  "lost" but not really since mail archives have the thread if
  another troll is revived later on

> Anyway, final comments on rpmdrake as it currently is:
> 1a)Could we have a toolbar, instead of the huge banner, from which we
> could have access to an options dialog box, and possibly to the sources
> manager (sure, rpmdrake would have to reload lists afterwards, tough).
> or

I don't like "instead of". These have two different functions
(the banner is simply a title, contains colours and icon so that
beginner is not too frightened, whereas toolbar contains
functional information).

> 1b)Have a checkbox for "search in installed packages"

In my eternal quest for keeping rpmdrake UI-simple, I sort of
"don't want" to add a toolbar or another checkbox if they are not
"very" important..

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Guillaume Cottenceau]

Buchan Milne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> -It would be nice if by default rpmdrake would show software that is
> installed. IMHO, there should be an options dialog, which has things
> like "show installed software in searches".

It's a good idea[1] but I still don't see how to integrate well
an options dialog. I don't want to add a menubar nor a toolbar
just for that. I was thinking I was going to show installed
software as well in searches by default, I think it should be ok
for beginners.

Ref: 
[1] I haven't implemented yet the backend to show installed
software, because after thinking I'm actually thinking it will be
a bit more complicated to do than expected, because the "special"
treeview I use is shared (from ugtk2.pm) with the install and
with the services configurator, and it's meant to contain
consistent selectable entries.. but of course that's only a
technical point, it's possible

-- 
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steffen Barszus wrote:
> Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 20:26 schrieb Buchan Milne:
>
> [... UI review ]
>
>>SuSE
>>- 
>>I haven't used SuSE much, and can't find a screenshot now ...
>
>
> Here I can help out.
>
> http://www.suse.de/~sh/YaST2-Package-Manager/screen-shots.html .This
is from
> SuSE 8.1 as far as I understood.  (http://lwn.net/Articles/10061/)
>

Thanks.

IMHO, the fact that you need 17 screenshots says enough about it's
complexity, and although there seem to be some nice features
(disk-free-space meter and it seems to be able to show details from
different versions of packages side-by-side) and it looks professional
in some respects, is IMHO a bit complex. But I guess I should actually
try it (but I don't think I will have time ..).

Regards,
Buchan

- --
|--Another happy Mandrake Club member--|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Michael Scherer]

well, can you place your document on the wiki ?

> Synaptic
> 
> http://distro.conectiva.com.br/prjs/synaptic/filter.jpg
> (I don't know how recent this is ...)

very very old :)

> Ok, even for a pretty advanced user, this is serisously complicated,
> and overly so (IMHO). The UI toolkit is also at odds with anything
> most users will be using most of the time (in terms of widgets,
> colours, themes etc). What is it? Motif? Athena?

It is Wings, a toolkits used by Windowsmaker.
this is not a recent screenshot,  they switched to gtk.

I think, for a advanced user, it is perfect.

I have show this to some debian users ( who did even know that a gui was 
availiable ) , and we didn't have any problem with it. First time I 
used it :)

On the other hand, for a perfect newbie, it is more complicated, for 
sure.

-- 

Michaël Scherer

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Steffen Barszus]

Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2003 20:26 schrieb Buchan Milne:

[... UI review ]
> SuSE
> - 
> I haven't used SuSE much, and can't find a screenshot now ...

Here I can help out. 

http://www.suse.de/~sh/YaST2-Package-Manager/screen-shots.html .This is from 
SuSE 8.1 as far as I understood.  (http://lwn.net/Articles/10061/)

Steffen

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

w9ya wrote:
> On Friday 20 June 2003 12:22 pm, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Now that is very funny. There aren't any bad Mandrake rpms. and just not
> possible to create one eh ?
>

Not without being spammed to death ;-) (I get more spam from rpm-bots
than other spam, I think ... and that doesn't even include mails from
users who send directly, bugzilla, or cooker mail).

>>I simply don't believe this is possible within the current context of
>>how Linux, OS'es in more general terms and computers themselves work.
>>*Anyone* sitting down in front of an unfamiliar computer is either going
>>to have to receive instruction (through interaction or through
>>documentation) or go through a painful process of trial and error. This
>>isn't a good situation, but equally it isn't a situation that can be
>>resolved by patching rpmdrake.
>
>
> We should respectfully disagree on this.
>

Well, until someone has objectively tested it and reported their results
(with people who have *never* seen a computer before, no, not even DOS)
I don't think there is a point arguing it ...

Regards,
Buchan

- --
|--Another happy Mandrake Club member--|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key   http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed*software

[Buchan Milne]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

w9ya wrote:
> On Friday 20 June 2003 03:18 am, Buchan Milne wrote:
>
>>In summary
>>- -the fact that some people here find urpmi more convenient doens't mean
>>we think newbies should use it, but it means we don't use rpmdrake much
>>- -Windows isn't much better (it doesn't show me alternative media players
>>like winamp when I click any "Add/remove programs" menu. Installing
>>softare from the network is possible if you have an Active Directory
>>domain, but each piece of software (that doesn't support MSI files)
>>needs to be specially prepared for this. (BTW, this is why I think urpmi
>>should have LDAP support ...). Software you uninstall sometimes doesn't
>>get removed from the list of installed software. Software installation
>>and uninstallation can be unpredictable. Not all software installs
>>itself into the list of installed software (yes, even ones where you run
>>a real setup.exe).
>>- -It would be nice if by default rpmdrake would show software that is
>>installed. IMHO, there should be an options dialog, which has things
>>like "show installed software in searches".
>>
>>Is there any reason why installed software can not be under a seperate
>>branch of the tree view?
>
> Any reason it can't be in the same program, from a user's perspective ?
>

By "branch", I meant an entry in a tree, with more "branches" (subtrees)
or "leaves" below it, so if you have strated rpmdrake in install mode:

+Development
+Graphical Environment
+Server
+Workstation
+*Installed Packages*

Or, possibly, uninstalled packages should only be show on search, in
which case:
+Development
+Graphical Environment
+Server
+Workstation
+Search results
+-result1
+-result2
++Installed software
  +-installed result1


This neatly gets around at least one of those problems, and shouldn't
add too much complexity to the UI (though it might to the backend).

Anyway, a UI review would probably want to look at other interfaces.

==
rpmdrake 1.4
- 
ftp://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake-old/8.2/i586/tutorial/SoftwareMgr/images/rpmdrake14.gif

I think the big problem with the UI in rpmdrake 8.2 (the one in C) was
that there was an "installed" tab, and an "installable" tab. Many people
missed these, and had to be explained to how they could see which
software was installed, and how to remove it. Also, the fact that you
could select software for installation and uninstallation simultaneously
(possibly unknowingly, and the UI subsequently hiding it from you) was a
problem.

Also, the details window was too small to use easily, even on a
relatively large screen when maximised.

Support for verifying files in an rpm easily was a nice feature though :-(.

Synaptic
- 
http://distro.conectiva.com.br/prjs/synaptic/filter.jpg
(I don't know how recent this is ...)

Ok, even for a pretty advanced user, this is serisously complicated, and
overly so (IMHO). The UI toolkit is also at odds with anything most
users will be using most of the time (in terms of widgets, colours,
themes etc). What is it? Motif? Athena?

Red Hat
- ---
http://www.redhat.com/img/linux_ss_per_install1.gif

IMHO, way too simplistic, it is trying to be too much like the
components of Windows 2000 Server, and is almost as bad at not allowing
fine enough choices (though this may be a consequence of the RH
packaging, for example requiring the server side of samba installed just
to use the winbind authentication bits on a desktop in a windows
domain). I don't see any version information, and I don't know if
multiple sources can be used or if you can see any details on a package
or search easily.

SuSE
- 
I haven't used SuSE much, and can't find a screenshot now ...

GnoRPM
- --
http://www.daa.com.au/~james/software/gnorpm/gnorpm-0.6.gif

I endured much pain under GnoRPM on RH6.x and Mandrake 7.x. The only
good thing it ever had going for it was displaying the icons stored in
the RPM, but I haven't seen many RPMs with those in recent times ...

Kpackage
- 
(I void kpackage, since it makes a mess of double-clicking on rpms to
get gurpmi going, which is generally a better option):
http://www.general.uwa.edu.au/u/toivo/kpackage/snapshot4.png

The UI is more comples than rpmdrake 1.4, search capability is hidden
behind icons that don't look too intuitive. Checkboxes to select
packages to install is also  a bit more intuitive than the KDE checkmark.

==

BTW, if anything constructive is going to come from this, someone needs
to put this somewhere where it won't be forgotten, either in a wiki of
some description (cooker?) or in bugzilla (BTW, this is one of my issues
 with hugs discussions on cooker, they get lost if no-one takes the
effort to document them, which is possibly why bugzilla or the cooker
wiki is a better forum).

Anyway, final comments on rpmdrake as it currently is:
1a)Could we 

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[w9ya]

On Friday 20 June 2003 12:56 pm, Levi Ramsey wrote:
> On Fri Jun 20 11:22 -0500, w9ya wrote:
> > Finally; and I cannot be any more specific that this. Why not make a
> > better tool than Windows has, so new users can clearly see a superiority
> > right off the bat. Make it gui and play in their world -view.
>
> The beauty of Open Source and Free Software is that you can scratch your
> particular itch easily.  Hack up an addition to rpmdrake and contribute
> it.  The source to current rpmdrake is available; copy from that as much
> as you like (obviously this would require that your code be GPL'd).  If
> you don't know Perl already, well, this will be a learning experience
> (Perl looks very good on resumes and so forth, from what I've heard).

Thank you. This is among the few intellegent responses I have seen so far.
(You have restored my faith.)

Bob Finch

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[w9ya]

On Friday 20 June 2003 12:22 pm, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 16:50, w9ya wrote:
> > > > I *AM* saying that a user watching me install could easily think it
> > > > was too hard. And I will maintain that having to hit all these damn
> > > > buttons, in the right order, to use the rpmdrake tool to find, get,
> > > > and then install a program is MUCH harder than finding, getting, and
> > > > installing a program in the windows world. I use both, and I have
> > > > been using computers for 35 years. You will have to *exactly* explain
> > > > to me how in a step by step fashion the current rpmdrake tools are
> > > > actually easier.
> > >
> > > You have to "hit loads of damn buttons in the right order" to get and
> > > install software in Windows. You have to open IE, find the website for
> > > the program, download the installer to somewhere, know how to find and
> > > run it, find it and run it, agree to some ludicrous clickwrap license,
> > > then install it somewhere. That's *oodles* of buttons to hit.
> >
> > Which proves my point. Why be just as lame as Windows can be ? Why not
> > improve and make a nice gui app, that handles ALL of what needs to be
> > handled.
>
> No. I'm merely echoing the other person who made the important point
> that Windows is terrible in this very area and holding it up as an
> example is one thing we should *not* be doing.
>
> > > Well...for all programs that conform to the Add / Remove Programs
> > > thingy, yes there is. Sadly, this is by no means *all* programs.
> >
> > Well you can have bad rpms too.
>
> Not Mandrake ones. This is a crucially misunderstood point. People
> assume you ought to be able to install any rpm on any rpm-based
> distribution, which is quite simply wrong and not at all what the rpm
> format is designed for.

Now that is very funny. There aren't any bad Mandrake rpms. and just not 
possible to create one eh ?


>
> > > > Finally; and I cannot be any more specific that this. Why not make a
> > > > better tool than Windows has, so new users can clearly see a
> > > > superiority right off the bat. Make it gui and play in their world
> > > > -view.
> > >
> > > I think rpmdrake already is that tool. Why? It's predictable. You only
> > > need to teach someone how rpmdrake and rpmdrake-remove work *once* and
> > > they can install and remove every single piece of software in Mandrake.
> >
> > They point is *NOT* to have to teach a newbie. But rather to have it be
> > intuitive yet more functional than what they are use to. That is the
> > goal. Are not we Linux users capable of striving for that ?
>
> I simply don't believe this is possible within the current context of
> how Linux, OS'es in more general terms and computers themselves work.
> *Anyone* sitting down in front of an unfamiliar computer is either going
> to have to receive instruction (through interaction or through
> documentation) or go through a painful process of trial and error. This
> isn't a good situation, but equally it isn't a situation that can be
> resolved by patching rpmdrake.

We should respectfully disagree on this.

Bob

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Levi Ramsey]

On Fri Jun 20 11:22 -0500, w9ya wrote:
> Finally; and I cannot be any more specific that this. Why not make a better 
> tool than Windows has, so new users can clearly see a superiority right off 
> the bat. Make it gui and play in their world -view.

The beauty of Open Source and Free Software is that you can scratch your
particular itch easily.  Hack up an addition to rpmdrake and contribute
it.  The source to current rpmdrake is available; copy from that as much
as you like (obviously this would require that your code be GPL'd).  If
you don't know Perl already, well, this will be a learning experience
(Perl looks very good on resumes and so forth, from what I've heard).

-- 
Levi Ramsey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]

Currently playing: Rush - Presto - Available Light
Linux 2.4.21-0.15mdk
 13:52:00 up 10 days, 13:07, 12 users,  load average: 0.09, 0.20, 0.21

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed* software

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 16:50, w9ya wrote:

> > > I *AM* saying that a user watching me install could easily think it was
> > > too hard. And I will maintain that having to hit all these damn buttons,
> > > in the right order, to use the rpmdrake tool to find, get, and then
> > > install a program is MUCH harder than finding, getting, and installing a
> > > program in the windows world. I use both, and I have been using computers
> > > for 35 years. You will have to *exactly* explain to me how in a step by
> > > step fashion the current rpmdrake tools are actually easier.
> >
> > You have to "hit loads of damn buttons in the right order" to get and
> > install software in Windows. You have to open IE, find the website for
> > the program, download the installer to somewhere, know how to find and
> > run it, find it and run it, agree to some ludicrous clickwrap license,
> > then install it somewhere. That's *oodles* of buttons to hit.
> 
> Which proves my point. Why be just as lame as Windows can be ? Why not improve 
> and make a nice gui app, that handles ALL of what needs to be handled.

No. I'm merely echoing the other person who made the important point
that Windows is terrible in this very area and holding it up as an
example is one thing we should *not* be doing.

> > Well...for all programs that conform to the Add / Remove Programs
> > thingy, yes there is. Sadly, this is by no means *all* programs.
> 
> Well you can have bad rpms too.

Not Mandrake ones. This is a crucially misunderstood point. People
assume you ought to be able to install any rpm on any rpm-based
distribution, which is quite simply wrong and not at all what the rpm
format is designed for.

> >
> > > Finally; and I cannot be any more specific that this. Why not make a
> > > better tool than Windows has, so new users can clearly see a superiority
> > > right off the bat. Make it gui and play in their world -view.
> >
> > I think rpmdrake already is that tool. Why? It's predictable. You only
> > need to teach someone how rpmdrake and rpmdrake-remove work *once* and
> > they can install and remove every single piece of software in Mandrake.
> 
> They point is *NOT* to have to teach a newbie. But rather to have it be 
> intuitive yet more functional than what they are use to. That is the goal. 
> Are not we Linux users capable of striving for that ?

I simply don't believe this is possible within the current context of
how Linux, OS'es in more general terms and computers themselves work.
*Anyone* sitting down in front of an unfamiliar computer is either going
to have to receive instruction (through interaction or through
documentation) or go through a painful process of trial and error. This
isn't a good situation, but equally it isn't a situation that can be
resolved by patching rpmdrake.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] rpmdrake and newbies: they sometimes miss *installed * software

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 14:37, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:

> It was never a simple matter because it involved the public at large, it
> *is* a free public debate involving history and different ideas about
> the best way for rpmdrake to function, and the fact that we all have
> different ideas on this subject means that everyone gets a chance to be
> heard.  Which btw clears the way for me to state my case, and your
> personal vendetta against my personal self in that regard is
> irrelevant.  This is why I haven't responded to your efforts to silence
> my voice before now; your irrelevance.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that no matter what your preconceptions are, I
> now know for a fact that you are in the minority on this matter.  I
> can't be more specific on that.  If you've got a problem with me
> personally, then you start sending me email private, and I'll be more
> than glad to start dealing with you there.  I have a preference for
> dealing with people face to face, because I find that in my personal
> experience it eliminates alot of overt long range pinhead arrogance on
> the part of the other person just about immediately.  But in lieu of
> that, I'll take the next best thing.

Does anyone have a pin? My detector of huge balloons of pomposity is
registering off the scale.
-- 
adamw