Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[gene heskett]

On 6/23/24 01:35, Keith Bainbridge wrote:


On 23/6/24 14:25, David Wright wrote:

On Sun 23 Jun 2024 at 12:52:55 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:

Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so 
convoluted?


Only on the odd occasion when an area decides to cross it, for
whatever reason. Like Samoa recently. And before that, the
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.



+14:00??   I've only ever heard of maxima of +/- 12:00.   But see below

A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to see 
transmitter logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I 
retired in 2002, I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't 
convert back to two 12 hour periods a day.  The AM/PM convention. So 
when I say its 22:30, its 10:30 PM to the neighbors next door.



As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the
West Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on
the road West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the
a further 45 mins to main stream West Aust.  There might be 10,000
people live within it.


$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$



So Eucla: Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 would be UTC: Sun Jun 23 04:24:54
How do we get that time in the middle of the Pacific? Surely it would be 
Sat Jun22 18:24:54



And then I see a LOT of discussion on my suggestion about how MUA format 
the send time when people reply. I'll get back to that later.



Cheers,
David.





Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 12:18 AM David Wright  wrote:
> [...]
> Well, that's a mouthful. And what am I to call the time that a system
> issues using that system default time zone?

The kernel clock counts ticks. The ticks are relative to Epoch, which
is UTC. Ticks are what you see in the output of dmesg. So maybe call
it UTC, GMT or Zulu?

> If I boot up two computers
> and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
> opinion to describe the time displayed?

The NTP folks call them timekeepers when they are correct, and
falsetickers when they are incorrect. But "them" are timeservers
participating in the NTP protocol. See
 and RFC 5905,
.

If the OS is not keeping accurate time, then I would call it a falseticker.

If you only boot two computers, then you cannot be sure which computer
is the falseticker. You need three or more time sources to determine
which is the falseticker. As the saying goes, a person with a watch
knows what time it is. A person with two watches is never sure.

Jeff

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 23/6/24 14:25, David Wright wrote:

On Sun 23 Jun 2024 at 12:52:55 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:


Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so convoluted?


Only on the odd occasion when an area decides to cross it, for
whatever reason. Like Samoa recently. And before that, the
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.



+14:00??   I've only ever heard of maxima of +/- 12:00.   But see below


As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the
West Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on
the road West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the
a further 45 mins to main stream West Aust.  There might be 10,000
people live within it.


$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$



So Eucla: Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 would be UTC: Sun Jun 23 04:24:54
How do we get that time in the middle of the Pacific? Surely it would be 
Sat Jun22 18:24:54



And then I see a LOT of discussion on my suggestion about how MUA format 
the send time when people reply. I'll get back to that later.



Cheers,
David.



--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 12:31:41 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:52:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 07:15:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > If I boot up two computers
> > > > and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
> > > > opinion to describe the time displayed?
> > > 
> > > They're out of sync.  Or, at least one of them is.
> > 
> > No, the kernel clocks are all in sync.
> 
> Then you were unclear.  You said "they display different times".  That
> means one of them is wrong.  The other one may be right, or they may
> both be wrong.

None of them is wrong. They're both showing the time appropriate for
the nationality of the passengers who are going to be directed to them.

> > > Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"?  If
> 
> The following are the same time, but in two different time zones:
> 
> 12:00:00 -0500
> 13:00:00 -0400
> 
> The following are different times:
> 
> 12:00:00 -0500
> 12:26:00 -0500
> 
> > Yes, they're set as desired.
> 
> So you meant "the same time, but in different time zones".  You should
> have said that.

That's how you and I see them, but a passenger from Bahrain, say,
sees things differently. They just want to be directed to a system
on Bahraini time, just like ones at home.

That expression caused consternation in some.

> Pick any damned word you want, then.  I'm done caring.

Yes, I picked "system", as in Operating System, and not Kernel.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 12:26:05 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:51:32 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 10:02:43 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > set date_format="!It's %a %d%b%Y at %H:%M:%S here, where clocks are 
> > > UTC%z"
> 
> > I think you need to set attribution, not date_format. For example,
> >   set attribution="On %{%a %d %b %Y} at %{%H:%M:%S (%z)}, %n wrote:"
> > is my own. The %{…} braces indicate using the sender's time zone.
> 
> The default value of attribution contains %d which references the
> date_format variable.  The "!" in the date_format variable says to
> use the C locale when writing the day-of-week and month abbreviations,
> rather than whatever your regular locale would call them.
> 
> I'm using this:
> 
> set date_format="!%a, %b %d, %Y at %H:%M:%S %z"

I didn't mean that it won't work.

The attribution format is designed for the benefit of recipients.
The date_format is designed to be available for constructing
strings like indexes and folder lists for the user, as well as
external-facing uses. You might want to add text like "where clocks
are" to the top of a message, but it would be tedious to have a
column of
  where clocks are
  where clocks are
  where clocks are
  where clocks are
in an index.

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Sun 23 Jun 2024 at 12:52:55 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:

> Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so convoluted?

Only on the odd occasion when an area decides to cross it, for
whatever reason. Like Samoa recently. And before that, the
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.

> As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the
> West Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on
> the road West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the
> a further 45 mins to main stream West Aust.  There might be 10,000
> people live within it.

$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$ 

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 23/6/24 00:53, David Wright wrote:

Styles change: there's a tendency in
English to evolve towards compound words, sometimes with hyphenation
along the way.


Not to mention some cultures change how words are spelt: colour, odour, 
metres to quote a few.


But don't fret.Some people pronounce the word for 1,000 metres as a 
measure of kills - kil-ometer. It should be kilo-metre.   To support my 
agruement, try speedometer, gasometer, odometer.



--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 23/6/24 12:08, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 11:02 AM Stefan Monnier > wrote:


 > Yes, I realise that. The times are being displayed by the gettys,
 > controlled by the /etc/issue format string.  Jobs are being run
 > by cron, logs written by rsyslogd, and so on. And the term is … ?

Maybe there simply isn't such a term.  The subject is sufficiently
complex/delicate that there can't be a term for every single situation.


I think we are losing sight of the fact that all of timekeeping is an 
abstraction and over-generalization. Time zones were created to help 
regularize railroad schedules over wide areas. Timezones are an 
abstraction that permit us to _pretend_ that it is (physical) noon at 
the same clock time over an extended area. When in fact physical high- 
noon, determined by the sun's position in the sky, cannot be at the 
exact same time just a few centimeters west or east of my eyeballs.


         Stefan



I can't resist.

Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so convoluted?

I reckon it would have been (almost) straight if UTC was set about 11° 
west of it's current position.


Any chance of fixing it?   Probably even less now that UK has left the EU.

As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the West 
Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on the road 
West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the a further 
45 mins to main stream West Aust.  There might be 10,000 people live 
within it. I think that somewhere is Baledonia. I'll check next time 
I drive over, but that'll be sometime next year, if I'm lucky.


--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 23/6/24 01:16, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

Possible. I was happy to forget that I had anything to do with
Windows 🙂


Especially delving into the registry
--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Modifying Desktop Icons [Solved]

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/06/2024 03:16, Pranjal Singh wrote:

although not having
your data out there is better IMHO


Notice that firefox has "Always use private browsing mode" setting 
exposed to UI.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 11:02 AM Stefan Monnier 
wrote:

> > Yes, I realise that. The times are being displayed by the gettys,
> > controlled by the /etc/issue format string.  Jobs are being run
> > by cron, logs written by rsyslogd, and so on. And the term is … ?
>
> Maybe there simply isn't such a term.  The subject is sufficiently
> complex/delicate that there can't be a term for every single situation.
>

I think we are losing sight of the fact that all of timekeeping is an
abstraction and over-generalization. Time zones were created to help
regularize railroad schedules over wide areas. Timezones are an abstraction
that permit us to _pretend_ that it is (physical) noon at the same clock
time over an extended area. When in fact physical high-noon, determined by
the sun's position in the sky, cannot be at the exact same time just a few
centimeters west or east of my eyeballs.

Stefan
>
>

Re: Current best practices for system configuration management?

[David Christensen]

On 6/22/24 11:33, Dmitrii Odintcov wrote:

Hi all,


Sorry to resurrect an old-ish thread, but I am facing the exact same
task, minus the know-how.

Basically I am looking to pre-configure a number of Debian setups -
let's say, "server", "laptop" and "PC" - that would contain sets of
packages to install (or uninstall), configuration files (including but
not limited to /etc/), and possibly arbitrary scripts to execute upon
installation (e.g. to make more precise edits to configs).

I would like to store these in some central, git-controlled location
where I could pull them from to my target machines. This kind of setup
could be rather low-level, such as configuring APT sources and
preferences, installing and configuring systemd-networkd, etc.
Ideally, I would also be able to incorporate these into a Debian
installer so I could get a new machine "up and running" with my
defaults in one go.

It is worth adding that I am not looking to build an "infrastructure",
and no setup *between* these machines (networking, file sharing, etc.)
is necessary.

Generally, I would rather avoid complicated tools like Ansible and
those with large dependencies such as interpreted languages (except
Perl).

So far, equivs and config-package-dev appear most relevant, but the
former is somewhat lacking in documentation (or I am in
documentation-finding ability), and the latter seems to be focused on
config editing/deployment rather than package installation.


Would be grateful for some advice!



I think the "best" answer depends upon the scale of your installation.


I have a SOHO network with a dozen or so Debian, Windows, macOS, and iOS 
clients, a FreeBSD/ZFS CVS, SSH, and Samba server, and a FreeBSD/ZFS 
backup server.  For system administration, including configuration 
management, I have gone down the do-it-yourself (DIY) path using 
lowest-common-denominator FOSS command line tools.



After the network, ssh(1), and rsync(1), the most valuable tool for 
system administration (including configuration management) has been a 
version control system.  I prefer CVS over Git because CVS provides 
monotonically-increasing MAJOR.MINOR version numbers via keywords (e.g. 
$Revision$) that can be included inside managed plaintext files.  I 
create a CVS project for everything I want to manage.  For OS's, I check 
in a sysadmin log file with my notes and console sessions, a list of 
packages installed, various reports that I have run, and any system 
configuration files that I have modified, added, or deleted.



After version control, the next most valuable tool has been scripting. 
Over the years, I have written numerous scripts to automate repetitive 
chores.  When the needs are simple, I write Bourne shell scripts.  When 
I want more power, I upgrade to Perl.  All of the scripts are checked in 
to CVS.



I expect Ansible, Puppet, etc., would work at my scale, but are designed 
for large installations.



David

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Will I outlive Debian 11/12?

Well we're only talking a small single digit number of years here,
so I hope you have reason to be optimistic.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 05:18:53PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 10:48 AM Richard Owlett  wrote:
> > [...]
> > Thank you for reminding me of live images just now. Perfect timing.
> > I have an i386 machine with some atypical constraints.
> > https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ states only amd64 images are currently
> > available.
> >
> > Questions:
> >1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
> >2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
> >   of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
> >   install image?
> 
> According to :
> 
> We don't store/serve the full set of ISO images for all
> architectures, to reduce the amount of space taken up on the mirrors.
> You can use the jigdo tool to recreate the missing ISO images instead.
> 
> The link provided for the jigdo tool is
> .
> 

Note: debian-cd and debian-live build scripts are different.

Debian-live are not provided via jigdo but just as single bootable images.
Debian-live for i386 is almost unusable given the amount of memory it takes
to boot up a live CD image well and to load all running components into
memory.

As far as possible, the image testing team no longer spend huge amounts
of time on 32 bit Debian live images.

Andy
> Jeff
> 

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 10:48 AM Richard Owlett  wrote:
> [...]
> Thank you for reminding me of live images just now. Perfect timing.
> I have an i386 machine with some atypical constraints.
> https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ states only amd64 images are currently
> available.
>
> Questions:
>1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
>2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
>   of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
>   install image?

According to :

We don't store/serve the full set of ISO images for all
architectures, to reduce the amount of space taken up on the mirrors.
You can use the jigdo tool to recreate the missing ISO images instead.

The link provided for the jigdo tool is
.

Jeff

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[David Christensen]

On 6/22/24 10:37, Richard Owlett wrote:
I ask about i386 Debian Live because I have a fine operational Sony 
laptop that currently runs Debian 9.0 and has a $20 price tag on its 
bottom.


This machine has option to boot Debian 11 with an AMD64 kernel.
I routinely run Debian 9.13 because its configuration is comfortable 
(i.e. useful).


I have 2 other laptops which will have something >= Debian 12 before I 
abandon this machine.



On 6/22/24 10:49, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 06/22/2024 12:13 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> On 6/22/24 09:57, David Christensen wrote:
>>> Rather than creating a customized Debian Live image, I install
>>> Debian onto a USB flash drive or onto a 2.5" SATA SSD connected via
>>> a USB-SATA adapter cable:
>>
>> +1
>>
>> It's pretty easy to make a simple Debian install on some old USB key
>> you have lying around and it comes really handy.
>
> Relevant laptop is so old I don't know if it can boot from a physical
> USB device. I was suspecting that simplest thing would be copying
> suitable image to hard drive and let GRUB earn its keep ;}


So, the Sony laptop has Debian 9.13 i386 installed on the HDD/SSD?


Debian 9 LTS support ended on 01 Jul 2022:

https://endoflife.date/debian


If the Sony laptop can boot Debian 11 amd64 via CD, it should be able to 
boot an amd64 OS via USB.  I suggest copying 
debian-12.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso to a USB flash drive and trying to boot 
it.  If it works, you can decide if you want to use d-i, if you want to 
burn a live distribution to a USB device, and/or if you want to install 
Debian onto a USB device.



David

Re: Modifying Desktop Icons [Solved]

[Pranjal Singh]

Hi Gareth,

I have solved it.
The solution: *drumroll* Switch from Ubuntu to Bookworm.

On 22/06/24 15:33, Gareth Evans wrote:


[...]
There is no "[-]-private" option according to the grep I performed, and 
[-]-private  produces a non-private window when run here from the command line.


Thanks Brad, Max, Greg, Jeffrey, Tomas and the unnamed Briton.
I have used Bookworm earlier, but the apt policy bit and Max's reply
drove me to return.

Some confusion may still be in order though:

Nikulin's suspicion that a copy of the file is used seems true: changing
non-pinned icons in Ubuntu's panel worked without a reboot, but not
Firefox. I tried looking into the GNOME source (grep-ing into that address)
but in vain.

The desktop-file-validate tool threw no error. Incidentally, the Ubuntu
desktop file had a single hyphen in the sub-entry for private windows
(Bookworm does not have sub-entries), but I've used both single and double
hyphens earlier. But I am using double hyphens now, as Brad warned.

I don't think *I* should raise a bug as Max suggested: unless a significant
number of users is interested, I wouldn't want to, although not having
your data out there is better IMHO. Perhaps some day I'll contribute the
feature myself.

Thanks again,
Pranjal

Re: Current best practices for system configuration management?

[Dmitrii Odintcov]

Hi all,


Sorry to resurrect an old-ish thread, but I am facing the exact same
task, minus the know-how.

Basically I am looking to pre-configure a number of Debian setups -
let's say, "server", "laptop" and "PC" - that would contain sets of
packages to install (or uninstall), configuration files (including but
not limited to /etc/), and possibly arbitrary scripts to execute upon
installation (e.g. to make more precise edits to configs).

I would like to store these in some central, git-controlled location
where I could pull them from to my target machines. This kind of setup
could be rather low-level, such as configuring APT sources and
preferences, installing and configuring systemd-networkd, etc.
Ideally, I would also be able to incorporate these into a Debian
installer so I could get a new machine "up and running" with my
defaults in one go.

It is worth adding that I am not looking to build an "infrastructure",
and no setup *between* these machines (networking, file sharing, etc.)
is necessary.

Generally, I would rather avoid complicated tools like Ansible and
those with large dependencies such as interpreted languages (except
Perl).

So far, equivs and config-package-dev appear most relevant, but the
former is somewhat lacking in documentation (or I am in
documentation-finding ability), and the latter seems to be focused on
config editing/deployment rather than package installation.


Would be grateful for some advice!

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/22/2024 12:13 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Rather than creating a customized Debian Live image, I install Debian onto
a USB flash drive or onto a 2.5" SATA SSD connected via a USB-SATA adapter
cable:


+1

It's pretty easy to make a simple Debian install on some old USB key you
have lying around and it comes really handy.


 Stefan




Snicker
Relevant laptop is so old I don't know if it can boot from a physical 
USB device. I was suspecting that simplest thing would be copying 
suitable image to hard drive and let GRUB earn its keep ;}

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/22/2024 08:55 AM, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 06:43:04AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Questions:
   1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
   2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
  of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
  install image?


Before you spend too much time on this, do be aware that Debian is
dropping i686 as an install architecture. There won't be installers
for i686 in future releases of Debian. You will only be able to run
i686 packages as a foreign arch on a machine booted with an amd64
kernel (or via virtualisation methods).

Building your own live images for amd64 and other supported
architectures is still pretty easy though.

Thanks,
Andy



*ROFL*
When I was an E.E. undergrad CPUs had 12AX7s and I/O devices included 
026 and KSR35. Analog hardware was more interesting than new-fangled 
digital stuff [have one of my father's CK722's around somewhere].


I ask about i386 Debian Live because I have a fine operational Sony 
laptop that currently runs Debian 9.0 and has a $20 price tag on its bottom.


This machine has option to boot Debian 11 with an AMD64 kernel.
I routinely run Debian 9.13 because its configuration is comfortable 
(i.e. useful).


I have 2 other laptops which will have something >= Debian 12 before I 
abandon this machine.


Will I outlive Debian 11/12?
[My parents married day before Pearl Harbor ;]

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Rather than creating a customized Debian Live image, I install Debian onto
> a USB flash drive or onto a 2.5" SATA SSD connected via a USB-SATA adapter
> cable:

+1

It's pretty easy to make a simple Debian install on some old USB key you
have lying around and it comes really handy.


Stefan

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[David Christensen]

On 6/22/24 04:43, Richard Owlett wrote:

Thank you for reminding me of live images just now. Perfect timing.
I have an i386 machine with some atypical constraints.
https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ states only amd64 images are currently 
available.


Questions:
   1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
   2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
  of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
  install image?



Rather than creating a customized Debian Live image, I install Debian 
onto a USB flash drive or onto a 2.5" SATA SSD connected via a USB-SATA 
adapter cable:


https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb


Installing Debian onto a USB device allows me to choose the tasks I want 
at install time and then to add, remove, update, upgrade, etc., the 
packages I want later.  I load the USB Debian instances with all of my 
favorite Unix/ Linux/ Debian trouble-shooting tools, plus my own scripts.



My Debian 11 amd64 BIOS/MBR USB instance works on all of my amd64 
BIOS/MBR computers and works on most of my EUFI/GPT computers when set 
to BIOS/MBR mode.



My Debian 11 am64 UEFI/GPT USB instance was created on a Windows 10 era 
machine with UEFI/GPT and only works on similar machines with similar 
settings.



David

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:52:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 07:15:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > If I boot up two computers
> > > and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
> > > opinion to describe the time displayed?
> > 
> > They're out of sync.  Or, at least one of them is.
> 
> No, the kernel clocks are all in sync.

Then you were unclear.  You said "they display different times".  That
means one of them is wrong.  The other one may be right, or they may
both be wrong.

> > Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"?  If

The following are the same time, but in two different time zones:

12:00:00 -0500
13:00:00 -0400

The following are different times:

12:00:00 -0500
12:26:00 -0500

> Yes, they're set as desired.

So you meant "the same time, but in different time zones".  You should
have said that.

> But now you've used 1.3k in your post,

Because I have to write AROUND your errors!!

> and I still don't have my adjective.

Pick any damned word you want, then.  I'm done caring.

Set your computer the way you want to set it.

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:51:32 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 10:02:43 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > set date_format="!It's %a %d%b%Y at %H:%M:%S here, where clocks are 
> > UTC%z"

> I think you need to set attribution, not date_format. For example,
>   set attribution="On %{%a %d %b %Y} at %{%H:%M:%S (%z)}, %n wrote:"
> is my own. The %{…} braces indicate using the sender's time zone.

The default value of attribution contains %d which references the
date_format variable.  The "!" in the date_format variable says to
use the C locale when writing the day-of-week and month abbreviations,
rather than whatever your regular locale would call them.

I'm using this:

set date_format="!%a, %b %d, %Y at %H:%M:%S %z"

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Stefan Monnier]

> Yes, I realise that. The times are being displayed by the gettys,
> controlled by the /etc/issue format string.  Jobs are being run
> by cron, logs written by rsyslogd, and so on. And the term is … ?

Maybe there simply isn't such a term.  The subject is sufficiently
complex/delicate that there can't be a term for every single situation.


Stefan

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:53:47AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 06:45:58 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > > I recall a checkbox do disable DST in Windows 95 or Windows 98, so perhaps
> > > searching for a timezone without DST was not necessary.
> > 
> > It's a log time ago, but we were a shop with a few pretty knowledgeable 
> > folks,
> > so I guess we first tried something like that.
> 
> There was a Registry Key:
>   
> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation\RealTimeIsUniversal
> that you could set to 1 for UTC. I don't remember when it was
> introduced. And, of course, it might have been present but
> undocumented for years.

Possible. I was happy to forget that I had anything to do with
Windows :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 18:35:34 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On 21/6/24 14:28, David Wright wrote:
> > You could pronounce your time written above as:
> > 
> >"It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+10:00"
> 
> Excellent. Now how do we get our MUA to do that when replying to mail,
> which is where I saw what I thought was a system error - but in fact
> was a misinterpretation.

I don't see the point. The email has a "Date:" header.

Unless it's significant that your email is like a blog that's been
written over a period of time; chronicling current events, say.

> > if that's indeed your intention. But what you've done is invent
> > some notation of your own, which people will likely misunderstand.
> > 
> > I think it best to look up these references and follow them:
> > 
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
> >https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3339.txt
> 
> Will do
> > 
> > IMHO I think that email attributions are best presented in and with
> > the time zone of the sender, and not oneself.
> 
> Maybe that would be achieved if the replyer's MUA inserted the senders
> date/time more clearly.   I don't mean to harp on, but maybe the
> coders just haven't mis-read the dates they are inserting for us.

They write Date: in the same format, often called RFC822 format,
see RFC 2822.

Cheers,
David.

Re: dictd?

[David Wright]

On Thu 20 Jun 2024 at 09:04:29 (+0700), Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 20/06/2024 00:31, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 22:15:20 +0500, Stanislav Vlasov wrote:
> > > In my system mode bits on my home dir are `drwx--` so only my user
> > > have access to it.
> > 
> > Well, yeah.  That's not a default setting
> 
> 0700 is the current default. See /usr/share/doc/adduser/README.gz and
> /usr/share/doc/adduser/NEWS.Debian.gz

I think that's a recent change, with bookworm. And there was some
vacillation while that was testing.

ISTR that long ago, you got the setgid as well, ie r-s.

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 06:45:58 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 09:32:10AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > On 20/06/2024 11:52, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > "the system's
> > > time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing",
> > > and others disagree 🙂
> > 
> > What term is appropriate in your opinion do describe the setting stored as
> > the /etc/localtime symlink? localtime(5)
> 
> The default time zone (i.e. that one which is used when some
> process calls for one and hasn't specified one itself).
> 
> > On 19/06/2024 11:37, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Especially that bit with the "system timezone". Reminds me of some
> > > remote past, where a system actually had a timezone (and changed its
> > > clock twice a year). Back then we used to set all our networked
> > > Windows boxen to a time zone without summer time change (ISTR it
> > > was Monrovia/Liberia) to avoid having our Makefiles freaking out
> > > twice a year.
> > 
> > I recall a checkbox do disable DST in Windows 95 or Windows 98, so perhaps
> > searching for a timezone without DST was not necessary.
> 
> It's a log time ago, but we were a shop with a few pretty knowledgeable folks,
> so I guess we first tried something like that.

There was a Registry Key:
  HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation\RealTimeIsUniversal
that you could set to 1 for UTC. I don't remember when it was
introduced. And, of course, it might have been present but
undocumented for years.

> > By the way,
> >  describes another style of
> > identifiers in the Microsoft TZ DB. At certain point I have realized that
> > "time zone" and "timezone" have a bit different meaning in the case of the
> > IANA database 
> 
> It's a complex matter, yes. Food for nerds :)

I'm not sure you can expect consistency in spelling beyond any
particular set of documents. Styles change: there's a tendency in
English to evolve towards compound words, sometimes with hyphenation
along the way.

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 06:48:14 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:17:42PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 20 Jun 2024 at 22:58:53 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 09:32:10 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > > On 20/06/2024 11:52, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Well, that's a mouthful. And what am I to call the time that a system
> > issues using that system default time zone? If I boot up two computers
> > and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
> > opinion to describe the time displayed?
> 
> The first step would be to realize that it's not the "computers" doing
> the time display, but some processes running on them, and *those* are
> the ones with the time zone (either default or explicitly set).

Yes, I realise that. The times are being displayed by the gettys,
controlled by the /etc/issue format string. Jobs are being run
by cron, logs written by rsyslogd, and so on. And the term is … ?

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 07:15:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 23:17:42 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > And what am I to call the time that a system
> > issues using that system default time zone?
> 
> If you mean the current time translated into that time zone, "local time"
> is the traditional name for it.

That might have worked when computers were big and heavy, but that's
no longer the case. When you travel with your laptop, there could be
two different local times, your one displayed by the computer, and
the real local time that tells you when "last orders" will be called
in the local pub.

> > If I boot up two computers
> > and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
> > opinion to describe the time displayed?
> 
> They're out of sync.  Or, at least one of them is.

No, the kernel clocks are all in sync.

> Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"?  If
> you displayed these times by running "date", which respects both the
> TZ environment variable and the /etc/localtime symlink, then you figure
> out which of them is set to an undesired value.  And then you fix it.
> Or, if it's set how you *want* it, then you leave it alone.

Yes, they're set as desired. But now you've used 1.3k in your post,
and I still don't have my adjective. The computers issue different
times, because they're being used by different people for different
purposes like in an internet café. I need to tell these people what
time they're set to. I say to them "this system is on Dubai time, and
that one's on Bahrain time. They know exactly what I mean, but what's
the term for those times? (Other than system time, which is what I'd
call it.) And it's not "local time", because the ferry we're on is
about to leave Karachi, so clocks will be showing PKT.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Sat 22 Jun 2024 at 10:02:43 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 18:35:34 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> > On 21/6/24 14:28, David Wright wrote:
> > > You could pronounce your time written above as:
> > > 
> > >"It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+10:00"
> > 
> > Excellent. Now how do we get our MUA to do that when replying to mail,
> 
> Depends on your MUA.  In mutt, it would be:
> 
> set date_format="!It's %a %d%b%Y at %H:%M:%S here, where clocks are UTC%z"
> 
> except that this won't put a colon inside the timezone offset.  It
> would just end with "UTC+1000".
> 
> Of course, you probably don't want that exact wording, because it's
> used as *part* of the attribution.  If you used the above, then the
> attribution would come out looking like:
> 
> On It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+1000, 
> So-and-So wrote:
> 
> So, you'd either want to change the attribution variable as well, or
> alter that wording slightly.  I'd suggest removing "It's" and "here".

I think you need to set attribution, not date_format. For example,
  set attribution="On %{%a %d %b %Y} at %{%H:%M:%S (%z)}, %n wrote:"
is my own. The %{…} braces indicate using the sender's time zone.

Cheers,
David.

Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Default User]

On Sat, 2024-06-22 at 18:11 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> 
> On 18/6/24 00:56, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> > Keith Bainbridge  wrote:
> > > On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge
> > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly
> > > 18:13:36 when I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have
> > > been
> > > 08:13:36 UTC What's wrong with my system clock. I've not really
> > > looked at the time on my originals before.  I'll try to remember
> > > to
> > > enter my local time as I press send
> > 
> > I'm confused. Your time displays (Keith) look sensible to me, given
> > they are in local time for somewhere like Brisbane.
> 
> Yes - except Brisbane remains in the dark ages and doesn't follow day
> light saving; despite the fact that the majority of people want it. 
> Seems the controlling interests still think the sun will fade the 
> curtains or the cows won't know when to wake up to be milked. As if!
> 
> 
> 


Hi, Keith. 
I really envy you. 

How I wish I lived where Daylight Saving Time did not exist. 

I do not intend to start a long "back-and-forth" about the subject, 
but I feel compelled to say that I absolutely despise the very idea of
Daylight Saving Time. 

Standard Time, all the time! 

:)

[From 2024-06-22, -0400 UTC]

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 18:28:55 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> And doesn't this exchange show that
> Sat 22Jun2024 at 18:27:55  +10:00
> 
> can be interpreted in two ways?

I can only read it one way.  What other way are you thinking of?

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 18:35:34 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> 
> On 21/6/24 14:28, David Wright wrote:
> > You could pronounce your time written above as:
> > 
> >"It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+10:00"
> 
> Excellent. Now how do we get our MUA to do that when replying to mail,

Depends on your MUA.  In mutt, it would be:

set date_format="!It's %a %d%b%Y at %H:%M:%S here, where clocks are UTC%z"

except that this won't put a colon inside the timezone offset.  It
would just end with "UTC+1000".

Of course, you probably don't want that exact wording, because it's
used as *part* of the attribution.  If you used the above, then the
attribution would come out looking like:

On It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+1000, 
So-and-So wrote:

So, you'd either want to change the attribution variable as well, or
alter that wording slightly.  I'd suggest removing "It's" and "here".

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 06:43:04AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Questions:
>   1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
>   2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
>  of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
>  install image?

Before you spend too much time on this, do be aware that Debian is
dropping i686 as an install architecture. There won't be installers
for i686 in future releases of Debian. You will only be able to run
i686 packages as a foreign arch on a machine booted with an amd64
kernel (or via virtualisation methods).

Building your own live images for amd64 and other supported
architectures is still pretty easy though.

Thanks,
Andy

> 

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/22/2024 07:39 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:

1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?


I guess:
   
https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/11.9.0-live/i386/iso-hybrid/


That solves a plethora of problems! Thank you.


At least the pages for archived Live ISOs for Debian 12 list no i386
any more:
   https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/12.1.0-live/



  2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
 of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
 install image?


Well, there is the manual
   https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/index.en.html


Reviewing table of contents indicate that sections 8, 9, and 10 have 
answers to questions I didn't know _how_ to ask ;}



The section "4.2 First steps: building an ISO hybrid image" looks like
you could get a quick ride.
   
https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/the-basics.en.html#170


Looks doable.
At least I'll learn enough to ask answerable questions.


   "execute the following sequence of live-build commands to create a basic
ISO hybrid image containing a default live system without X.org."

If it doesn't work, then debian-l...@lists.debian.org would be the list
to ask for help.


Have a nice day :)


With your reading list it should be educational. Thanks again.



Thomas

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> 1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?

I guess:
  https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/11.9.0-live/i386/iso-hybrid/
At least the pages for archived Live ISOs for Debian 12 list no i386
any more:
  https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/12.1.0-live/


>  2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
> of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
> install image?

Well, there is the manual
  https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/index.en.html
The section "4.2 First steps: building an ISO hybrid image" looks like
you could get a quick ride.
  
https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/the-basics.en.html#170
  "execute the following sequence of live-build commands to create a basic
   ISO hybrid image containing a default live system without X.org."

If it doesn't work, then debian-l...@lists.debian.org would be the list
to ask for help.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: mounting external hard drive from rescue mode shell?

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/21/2024 09:59 PM, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 21/06/2024 11:39, David Christensen wrote:

On 6/20/24 19:10, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 20/06/2024 12:06, David Christensen wrote:

You can use the fdisk(8) command to list the partitions on a drive.


lsblk --fs

perhaps with "-o +SIZE" may be more convenient to get overview of 
drives.


The debian-11.9.0-amd64-netinst rescue shell does not include lsblk(8):


My bad, I missed that the topic is specific to installer rescue mode. I 
usually boot a live image for rescue. It is more convenient: more tools 
are available or can be temporary installed, a browser may be used to 
search for failure details. A possible downside is enabling of found 
swap partitions and automounting of removable drives.





Thank you for reminding me of live images just now. Perfect timing.
I have an i386 machine with some atypical constraints.
https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ states only amd64 images are currently 
available.


Questions:
  1. What is latest i386 live image available in some archive?
  2. I have a working machine that will take a current full install
 of an i386 system. Can an average user create his own i386 live
 install image?

Re: Modifying Desktop Icons

[Gareth Evans]

> On 20 Jun 2024, at 20:52, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 22:56:33 +0530, Pranjal Singh wrote:
>>> It runs regular Firefox after adding the -private-window flag.
>>> 
>>> To get a MWE, I made these changes later:
>>> - Exec=firefox -private-window %u
>>> - StartupWMClass=firefox
>>> +Exec=gnome-calculator  
>> 
>> Did you see Gareth's reply at
>> ?
>> 
>> It's supposed to be --private-window with two leading hyphens, not
>> one, he said.
> 
> He was wrong according to Mozilla's documentation

My advice was based on

$ firefox -h | grep private
  --private-window  Open  in a new private window.
$

I did try (with Mate Desktop) with both single and double hyphens, both on the 
command line and in 

/usr/share/applications/firefox-esr.desktop

One hyphen failed to have the desired effect, but works when I try it now.  
Firefox hasn't been updated here since, so there seem to be other variables 
involved.

I would be inclined to take it from the firefox help grep results above that 
the double-hyphen form should always work.

I think the wiki is out of date - cf.

"-private
Opens Firefox in permanent private browsing mode ...

-private-window
Opens a new private browsing window in an existing instance of Firefox ..."

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/CommandLineOptions#Command_line_options

There is no "[-]-private" option according to the grep I performed, and 
[-]-private  produces a non-private window when run here from the command line.

$ apt policy firefox-esr
firefox-esr:
  Installed: 115.12.0esr-1~deb12u1
  Candidate: 115.12.0esr-1~deb12u1
  Version table:
 *** 115.12.0esr-1~deb12u1 500
500 https://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security/main 
amd64 Packages
[...]

Switch user causes screen to go blank

[C.T.F. Jansen]

Greetings,

When ones does a switch user from the application launch button then the 
screen goes blank and it stays that way until re-booted.

This seems to have been introduced in Debian 12.

Looking around there is no fix to this, only work arounds of varying 
effectiveness.


One work around is to do a command line

xdg-screensaver lock

There might be something one can click on somewhere to have the same effect.

With this I've so far been able to start another session without loosing 
anything.
To go back to the first login I had to do a ctrl-alt-f2 then back using 
ctrl-alt-f7.


This is a bug. It needs to be fixed.

Initiate a screen saver lock then hack away at ctrl-alt-whatever until 
one has by-passed the "issues".


If there's a better way or actual fix one would interested to know about it.

Cheers

frank.jan...@actrix.gen.nzZl2TTS

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 21/6/24 14:28, David Wright wrote:

You could pronounce your time written above as:

   "It's Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 here, where clocks are UTC+10:00"


Excellent. Now how do we get our MUA to do that when replying to mail, 
which is where I saw what I thought was a system error - but in fact was 
a misinterpretation.


if that's indeed your intention. But what you've done is invent
some notation of your own, which people will likely misunderstand.

I think it best to look up these references and follow them:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
   https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3339.txt


Will do


IMHO I think that email attributions are best presented in and with
the time zone of the sender, and not oneself.


Maybe that would be achieved if the replyer's MUA inserted the senders 
date/time more clearly.   I don't mean to harp on, but maybe the coders 
just haven't mis-read the dates they are inserting for us.





Cheers,
David.


--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 20/6/24 21:19, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2024-06-20 at 07:10, Greg Wooledge wrote:


On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 21:00:38 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:


https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/manpages-dev/strftime.3.en.html

is a list of place names for MANY parts of a date layout. I have set up the
following code in my text substitution app:
"%a %d%b%Y at %H:%M:%S =UTC %Z"

Triggering that give me
Thu 20Jun2024 at 20:51:19 =UTC +10:00

Seems to me that if the code writers of our various MUA would add the +UTC
to the line that prints the various dates, we'd understand what they mean
better.


Honestly, I have no idea what the =UTC part of your output is intended
to mean, since you've got +10:00 (time zone offset specification in hours
ahead of UTC) overriding it.


I parsed it as meaning "[date and time] is equal to UTC plus ten hours",
or in other words, "the time specified is in the UTC+10 time-zone".
Similarly to how I often seen Eastern Standard Time referenced as UTC-4
(that is, UTC minus four hours).


Normally, you put either the string UTC to indicate that this date/time
string is in UTC, or a time zone offset indicator that begins with + or -.
Not both.


It may be notable that he didn't put a +- offset indicator; he put a
format specifier which *expands to* whichever such indicator would
correspond to the active time zone.



And doesn't this exchange show that
Sat 22Jun2024 at 18:27:55  +10:00

can be interpreted in two ways?



--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 20/6/24 11:51, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 20/06/2024 02:16, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So 
in my experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to 
local time. That's been on Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu.


My experience with Ubuntu is that its installer is able to guess 
timezone (GeoIP?) and it properly sets /etc/localtime symlink while RTC 
is in UTC. Try "timedatectl" or hwclock. Setting RTC to local time 
increases a chance of some mess due to DST or an administrative time jump.




My experience is that most installers do pretty well at guessing where I am
--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 18/6/24 00:56, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Keith Bainbridge  wrote:

On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:


It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly
18:13:36 when I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have been
08:13:36 UTC What's wrong with my system clock. I've not really
looked at the time on my originals before.  I'll try to remember to
enter my local time as I press send


I'm confused. Your time displays (Keith) look sensible to me, given
they are in local time for somewhere like Brisbane.


Yes - except Brisbane remains in the dark ages and doesn't follow day 
light saving; despite the fact that the majority of people want it. 
Seems the controlling interests still think the sun will fade the 
curtains or the cows won't know when to wake up to be milked. As if!




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All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 18/6/24 03:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:


And I can never remember if the dot means AM or PM.  I suspect it changes
between implementations, or maybe I'm just very slow.


Probably only really meant to show us when we are setting an alarm at 
night, for the morning, that the dot is on one and off on the other. 
Else we'll wake a little late.


Remember the joke about going to bed at 8 and setting the alarm on a 
wind-up clock for 9 - we wouldn't get much sleep.

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All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 18/6/24 01:36, David Wright wrote:

Along with 350M Americans! They even use just A and P over here. And a
mere dot on digital clocks. (I see you've changed it already!)


I've been using 24 hour time and dMMM for a long time. I used send 
international cheques as part of my work, and decided that spelling the 
month was simple basics.



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All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 18/6/24 21:02, Greg Wooledge wrote:

In a previous message, you thought that your system clock or your time
zone was set wrong, because you read one of the attribution lines of
one of my replies, and you thought it said you had sent your message
at the wrong time.

As it turns out, I'm fairly certain you misread the attribution line,
which was reporting time in a 12-hour format, with "PM".  You saw the
06:... and thought it was saying you had sent your email at 6 AM, but
you missed the "PM" at the end.

As far as I know, it was a simple misread on your part, and nothing is
actually wrong.


Absolutely correct Greg.  I like your date/time line. The addition of 
the offset fro UTC without some explanation confused me.


And started 2 debates.
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All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00