Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Sat 14 Aug 2021 at 15:31:07 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> On 2021-08-14 2:44 p.m., Brian wrote:

[...]

>
> > A Mopria-certified printer is not a reliable indicator of driverless
> > printing being possible on Debian.
> > 
> 
> If you say so, I'll agree with you because there's no use of arguing of
> who's winning and I never had the expectation to win.

It isn't about winning. It is about cogent technical argument. Up to
now you haven't presented one. All you have done is referred to the
Mopria website as a source of information. The Debian printing system
is not mentioned in what you write.

I recognise your point but its validity in a Debian context is very
dubious.
 
> The only thing I know is that if you'd have read the Mopria site then
> you'd have looked at the FAQ and wouldn't have needed someone else to
> repeat you.
> 
> I am referring to this particular message.
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html

This link was in the message you responded to. Why quote it back to
me?
 
> I have already told you that it supported PDF and that all the
> information was on the Mopria website.
> 
> I won't go back and write again all the message I've sent.
> 
> The 3 condition are met, if you don't want to see it then I can't do more.
> 
> You are somewhat crossing the line between acting in good faith and just
> acting in plain confrontation.

Deconstruction - "I cannot counter your technical arguments so..."

--- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 2:44 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 19:03:23 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
>>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>>
>> I forgot some hard to find information from Wikipedia
> 
> You also forgot to attempt to respond to a simple question. Curt
> answered it satisfactorily.
> 
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html
> 
> You could have said "I do not know".
> 
>> If you doubt, 1st edit Wikipedia page and after this check the reference
>> down the page.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopria_Alliance
>>
>> *IPP*
>>
>> Windows 10 support for Mopria certified printers
>> Microsoft implemented an IPP printing solution based on the Mopria
>> standard in the Windows 10, version 1809 operating system.
>>
>> *autodiscovery*
>> Mopria Print Service
>> The Mopria Print Service for Android was released in the Google Play
>> store in October 2014. It is a plug-in that enables printing from
>> Android devices to Mopria certified printers and MFPs.
>>
>> A client uses mDNS to automatically discover a printer through the local
>> 802.11 wireless network. The printer must be connected to the network
>> either wirelessly or with an Ethernet cable. Mopria Print Service also
>> supports printer connection through Wi-Fi Direct.
> 
> Any doubts I have do not relate to a transpot or discovery protocol
> but to a common PDL. As demonstrated at
> 
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00681.html
> 
> this is the critical third factor. You have completely ignored it.
> 
 And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> 
> You only mention two conditions. A driverless printing situation
> requires *three* conditions.
> 
 There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> 
> This is where you go off the rails. I am utterly amazed that such
> a syatement could be made in the context of a Debian installation.
> These well meaning but ill-formed ideas really will have to revised
> to match reality.
> 
> A Mopria-certified printer is not a reliable indicator of driverless
> printing being possible on Debian.
> 

If you say so, I'll agree with you because there's no use of arguing of
who's winning and I never had the expectation to win.

The only thing I know is that if you'd have read the Mopria site then
you'd have looked at the FAQ and wouldn't have needed someone else to
repeat you.

I am referring to this particular message.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html

I have already told you that it supported PDF and that all the
information was on the Mopria website.

I won't go back and write again all the message I've sent.

The 3 condition are met, if you don't want to see it then I can't do more.

You are somewhat crossing the line between acting in good faith and just
acting in plain confrontation.

Sorry, you are so beautiful, let me poke a knife thru my eye so I can
better admire you.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 19:03:23 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> > 
> I forgot some hard to find information from Wikipedia

You also forgot to attempt to respond to a simple question. Curt
answered it satisfactorily.

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html

You could have said "I do not know".

> If you doubt, 1st edit Wikipedia page and after this check the reference
> down the page.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopria_Alliance
> 
> *IPP*
> 
> Windows 10 support for Mopria certified printers
> Microsoft implemented an IPP printing solution based on the Mopria
> standard in the Windows 10, version 1809 operating system.
> 
> *autodiscovery*
> Mopria Print Service
> The Mopria Print Service for Android was released in the Google Play
> store in October 2014. It is a plug-in that enables printing from
> Android devices to Mopria certified printers and MFPs.
> 
> A client uses mDNS to automatically discover a printer through the local
> 802.11 wireless network. The printer must be connected to the network
> either wirelessly or with an Ethernet cable. Mopria Print Service also
> supports printer connection through Wi-Fi Direct.

Any doubts I have do not relate to a transpot or discovery protocol
but to a common PDL. As demonstrated at

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00681.html

this is the critical third factor. You have completely ignored it.

> >> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.

You only mention two conditions. A driverless printing situation
requires *three* conditions.

> >> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.

This is where you go off the rails. I am utterly amazed that such
a syatement could be made in the context of a Debian installation.
These well meaning but ill-formed ideas really will have to revised
to match reality.

A Mopria-certified printer is not a reliable indicator of driverless
printing being possible on Debian.
-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> 
> It's the support of MOPRIA.

Looks like an idea worth examining. Let's look at what's on the tin
and inside it.

Accordin to

  https://mopria.org/certified-products#company30

my ENVY 4502 is a Mopria-certified product. It is on a managed WiFi
network

Part of its TXT record shows:

  pdl=application/vnd.hp-PCL,image/jpeg,application/PCLm,image/urf

application/PCLm is acceptable to a Mopria. (I think it is meant to
used with Wi-Fi Direct and not a managed WiFi network, but we'll put
that on one side because a more pressing issue is about to emerge).

CUPS will give the printer destination with

  brian@desktop:~$ lpstat -e
  ENVY4500

and generate a PPD with

  brian@desktop:~$ lpoptions -p ENVY4500 -l

Examine the PPD with

  brian@desktop:~# grep "cupsFilter2" /etc/cups/ppd/ENVY4500.ppd
  *cupsFilter2: "image/jpeg image/jpeg 0 -"
  *cupsFilter2: "image/urf image/urf 100 -"

CUPS will only process jpeg and Apple raster (AirPrint). The filtering
system *must* send either of these two MIME types for printing to take
place. Having Mopria on the box isn't any indication that Driverless
Printing is possible with this printer.

A much better indication is looking for AirPrint-capabilty. CUPS will
accept and process image/urf. All modern printers have an AirPrint
service that is known to work splenedidly with the Debian printing
system.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 16:05:15 -, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-13, Nicolas George  wrote:
> >
> > I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
> > the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
> > possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in
> 
> But here the "driver," in your sense of the word, is "in" the printing
> device, not the OS, is it not? At any rate, driverless for the purposes
> of this discussion signifies that the *client* need install no software
> or data specific to a compliant printer.

Succinct and in keeping with what the PWG (Printer Working Group) and
CUPS and cups-filters developers would understan by the term. Anyone
is free to suggest what they consider is a better one.

Ultimately, the present phrase is expressive, but it does not matter.
In Debian 11 we have freed ourselves from reliance on non-free vendor
drivers and plugins for printing and scanning. Nicolas George has
demonstrated that with the installation of his new printer.

-- 
Brian.
Wasting bits and bandwidth since 1994.
(Signature inspired by a grateful user's comment).

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 1:08 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> 
>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>
>>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>>>
>>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
>>
>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.
> I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
> think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
> French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
> information I found and her attitude here was enough for me so that I avoid
> replying to her posts. I mean she takes things personal and starts a
> discussion that never ends and brings nothing at the end - pure waste of
> time.
> However I must admit she stopped top posting and it could be she educates
> herself.
> 

@brian
This is the kind of stupidity that don't give me any will to make effort
to pull out reference that I may have.

Quite awkward saying "she takes thing personal" when the message
contains my name.

By the way, don't take this message personal.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Curt]

On 2021-08-13, Nicolas George  wrote:
>
> I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
> the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
> possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in

But here the "driver," in your sense of the word, is "in" the printing
device, not the OS, is it not? At any rate, driverless for the purposes
of this discussion signifies that the *client* need install no software
or data specific to a compliant printer.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12021-08-13):
> Consider a driverless car. It is not really driverless in the sense
> you espouse. Otherwise it would not be going anywhere, would it?
> From the point of view of the passengers and the Authorities there
> isn't a human driver.

Exactly. "Driverless" uses the word "driver" as the layperson
understands it: some specific piece of software you have to install in
order to get a new device to work. In that sense, a brand new video
controller requires a driver, but not a mouse, a USB storage stick or
5.1 speakers.

I used the word "driver" in the technical sense: the piece of code in
the operating system (in the widest possible sense) that makes it
possible to use the device. In that sense a mouse requires the driver in
hid-generic.ko, a USB storage stick requires the driver in
usb-storage.ko, but speakers connected with a jack or RCA plug do not
(the audio controller does, though, but it does whether there are
speakers connected or not).

So much bits wasted for a small remark I made between parentheses.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 15:26:03 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Brian (12021-08-13):
> > Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
> > though :) ).
> 
> Enough to upgrade, but I do not know what it has to do with connecting a
> printer to an OpenWRT router.

There is advice on printing and scanning there.

> > Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
> > used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
> > is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
> > model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
> > need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.
> 
> It is free and it is the same driver for all brands and models,
> "driverless" is still a driver, just like usb-storage is a driver.

Consider a driverless car. It is not really driverless in the sense
you espouse. Otherwise it would not be going anywhere, would it?
>From the point of view of the passengers and the Authorities there
isn't a human driver.

> > I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
> > cups-daemon.
> 
> APT::Install-Recommends 0;
> 
> is one of the first dozen things I do to make a new Debian instable
> suitable for my tastes.

Fine when the user knows what he is doing but hopefully this will
not be common practice with most users.

> > Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread?
> 
> I forgot. I will check when the printer is plugged again.

You would be doing yourself a favour.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12021-08-13):
> Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
> though :) ).

Enough to upgrade, but I do not know what it has to do with connecting a
printer to an OpenWRT router.

> Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
> used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
> is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
> model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
> need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.

It is free and it is the same driver for all brands and models,
"driverless" is still a driver, just like usb-storage is a driver.

> I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
> cups-daemon.

APT::Install-Recommends 0;

is one of the first dozen things I do to make a new Debian instable
suitable for my tastes.

> Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread?

I forgot. I will check when the printer is plugged again.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 13:10:46 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> We finally found an HP DeskJet 2723e at a closer vendor; in terms of
> price and bulk it was much closer to to or needs the one we had and the
> cat broke.
> 
> I first set it up on wifi only. I used the proprietary HP application on
> my phone, it used bluetooth to give the wifi password to the printer. I
> confirmed with the router it was connected and set up a static DHCP
> lease.

Did you read the Release Notes for Bullseye? (No advice on cat controls,
though :) ).

> After that, I could connect to the printer using
> .
> 
> Setting up printing was as easy as:
> 
> sudo lpadmin -p DeskJet_2723e -v http://10.0.1.17:631/ -E -m everywhere
> 
> (by the way, "driverless" is a nice advertisement gimmick, but really it
> is a misnomer for an unified driver) and printing a test page worked
> right away.

The developers of our printing system would be more likely to view
driverless printing to be as outlined at

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00548.html

Also, the printing system does not have a unified driver. The drivers
used depend on the job, but they will always produce an outcome that
is suitable to be sent to the printer, irrespective of the make or
model of printer. Contrast that with the pre-buster situation. The
need for non-free vendor drivers has been eliminated.

> I could also scan using the web interface. SANE offered a little more
> resistance tough.
> 
> But first I had to re-configure it for another wifi network. This time I
> tried doing it with USB.
> 
> Installing ipp-usb and plugging the printer starts a ipp-usb.service and

I am surprised you had to install ipp-usb. It is a Recommends: of
cups-daemon.

> a web server on  where I could change the wifi
> settings. The web-server seems extremenly bogus, I had to reload the
> page numerous times before getting something workable.
> 
> Once the printer connected to its final network, I tried SANE seriously.
> 
> To let SANE auto-detect the device, I had to:
> 
> sudo hp-setup -i 10.0.1.17
> 
> to let it create a second queue
> "hp:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17". But it still refused to
> work.
> 
> For some reason, scanimage sends its useful messages to syslog instead
> of stderr.
> 
> I had:
> 
> unable to load library libm.so: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so: invalid ELF 
> header
> 
> (/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so is a ld script, not meant for dynamic
> loading), which seems to be just random incompetence with no actual
> consequence, and:
> 
> unable to open /var/lib/hp/hplip.state: No such file or directory
> 
> and, if I tried to populate this file based on examples found on the
> web:
> 
> unable to load library /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: 
> /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: cannot open shared object file: No 
> such file or directory
> 
> As it happens, it means the libsane-hpaio requires a binary non-Libre
> plugin for this printer. It can be downloaded with:
> 
> sudo hp-plugin -g
> 
> It installs files in /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/.
> 
> After that:
> 
> scanimage -h -d 'hpaio:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17'
> 
> worked, as did actual scanning and Gimp's GUI.
> 
> I am not very satisfied with the use of a binary plugin, but at least it
> works.

Did I not recommend sane-airscan earlier in this thread? If not

  apt install sane-airscan

Non-free plugins dispensed with at a stroke. Uninstall HPLIP while
you are at it. It is completely unneeded.

-- 
Brian.

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[ellanios82]

On 8/13/21 2:48 PM, deloptes wrote:

For me it is not a problem, I simply ignore her posts



 - Quite, quite  :)


.

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 07:43:35AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he perceived 
> a 
> personal attack on Polyna.

Good catch, thanks :-)

Cheers
 - t


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Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

>> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS
>> of excuse by political correctness.
> 
> I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he
> perceived a personal attack on Polyna

And I understood completely well.
So I hope Polyna does understand as well. I have a small issue with her
attitude taking things personally and argueing in trolling manner.
For me it is not a problem, I simply ignore her posts, but I like Brian and
his posts and sensed that he's falling for her argueing.

regards

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[rhkramer]

On Friday, August 13, 2021 02:42:55 AM deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Can we please avoid personal insults?
> > 
> > Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
> > those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
> > personally** does not belong in this list.
> 
> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS
> of excuse by political correctness.

I don't think tomas felt he was under personal attack, but that he perceived a 
personal attack on Polyna.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Hi.

We finally found an HP DeskJet 2723e at a closer vendor; in terms of
price and bulk it was much closer to to or needs the one we had and the
cat broke.

I first set it up on wifi only. I used the proprietary HP application on
my phone, it used bluetooth to give the wifi password to the printer. I
confirmed with the router it was connected and set up a static DHCP
lease.

After that, I could connect to the printer using
.

Setting up printing was as easy as:

sudo lpadmin -p DeskJet_2723e -v http://10.0.1.17:631/ -E -m everywhere

(by the way, "driverless" is a nice advertisement gimmick, but really it
is a misnomer for an unified driver) and printing a test page worked
right away.

I could also scan using the web interface. SANE offered a little more
resistance tough.

But first I had to re-configure it for another wifi network. This time I
tried doing it with USB.

Installing ipp-usb and plugging the printer starts a ipp-usb.service and
a web server on  where I could change the wifi
settings. The web-server seems extremenly bogus, I had to reload the
page numerous times before getting something workable.

Once the printer connected to its final network, I tried SANE seriously.

To let SANE auto-detect the device, I had to:

sudo hp-setup -i 10.0.1.17

to let it create a second queue
"hp:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17". But it still refused to
work.

For some reason, scanimage sends its useful messages to syslog instead
of stderr.

I had:

unable to load library libm.so: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so: invalid ELF 
header

(/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so is a ld script, not meant for dynamic
loading), which seems to be just random incompetence with no actual
consequence, and:

unable to open /var/lib/hp/hplip.state: No such file or directory

and, if I tried to populate this file based on examples found on the
web:

unable to load library /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: 
/usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/bb_escl.so: cannot open shared object file: No 
such file or directory

As it happens, it means the libsane-hpaio requires a binary non-Libre
plugin for this printer. It can be downloaded with:

sudo hp-plugin -g

It installs files in /usr/share/hplip/scan/plugins/.

After that:

scanimage -h -d 'hpaio:/net/DeskJet_2700_series?ip=10.0.1.17'

worked, as did actual scanning and Gimp's GUI.

I am not very satisfied with the use of a binary plugin, but at least it
works.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 06:29:52 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-13 6:12 a.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> >>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> > wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
> >> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> >>
> >> It's the support of MOPRIA.
> >> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> >> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> >> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> >> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> >> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> >>
> >> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
> >> Debian).
> >
> > I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> > determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> > But is it the *best* criterion?
> >
> > I've now got my head around it.
> >
> > Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> > to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> >
> 
>  Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> >>>
> >>> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> >>> excrutiating detail.
> >>>
>  It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
>  Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> >>>
> >>> Correct.
> >>>
>  Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>  Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> >>>
> >>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> >>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> >>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> >>>
> >> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
> >> https://mopria.org/spec-download
> > 
> > That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
> > clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
> > scanning.
> > 
>  And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> 
>  There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> >>>
> >>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> >>
> >> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
> >> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
> >> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?
> > 
> > There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.
> > 
> > 1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
> > 2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
> >it and calls it Bonjour.
> > 3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.
> > 
> > It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
> > with. As you said above:
> > 
> >  > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
> >  > PCL and PDF,...
> > 
> > Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
> > PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
> > satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read
> > 
> >   https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf
> > 
> > which is from 2013.
> > 
> > It says:
> > 
> >  > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
> >  > PCL-m, PWG Raster
> >  > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)
> > 
> > I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
> > status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 
> > 
> > If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.
> > 
> 
> No one force you to nothing. I've already written that the printers
> support PDF and JPEG, but this seems unreliable to you because I'm in
> gendering from French Canada (as your good friend deloptes seem to believe).

All I wanted was refernce. You seemed to be familia with Mopria so
it did not seem a bad idea to post to the list. It turns out, as
Curt posted, that a  Mopria-certified certified device wants to see
one of PWG raster, PCLm or PDF as a printer PDL. Rather strange that
an image format is not specified.

> Sorry if I don't keep a notepad and bookmark of all the information I
> collect. The simple fact the the dozen of printer I installed and dealt
> with, all being chosen on the only fact of being Mopria supported were
> offering JPEG and PDF (plus more).
> 
> Maybe I'd have more i

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-13 6:12 a.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
>> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
>>
>> It's the support of MOPRIA.
>> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
>>
>> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
>> Debian).
>
> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> But is it the *best* criterion?
>
> I've now got my head around it.
>
> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
>

 Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
>>>
>>> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
>>> excrutiating detail.
>>>
 It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
 Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
>>>
>>> Correct.
>>>
 Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
 Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
>>>
>>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>>
>> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
>> https://mopria.org/spec-download
> 
> That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
> clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
> scanning.
> 
 And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.

 There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
>>>
>>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
>>
>> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
>> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
>> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?
> 
> There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.
> 
> 1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
> 2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
>it and calls it Bonjour.
> 3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.
> 
> It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
> with. As you said above:
> 
>  > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
>  > PCL and PDF,...
> 
> Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
> PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
> satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read
> 
>   https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf
> 
> which is from 2013.
> 
> It says:
> 
>  > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
>  > PCL-m, PWG Raster
>  > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)
> 
> I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
> status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 
> 
> If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.
> 

No one force you to nothing. I've already written that the printers
support PDF and JPEG, but this seems unreliable to you because I'm in
gendering from French Canada (as your good friend deloptes seem to believe).

Sorry if I don't keep a notepad and bookmark of all the information I
collect. The simple fact the the dozen of printer I installed and dealt
with, all being chosen on the only fact of being Mopria supported were
offering JPEG and PDF (plus more).

Maybe I'd have more interest in doing some research to help you out, as
you seem to need some hard proof regarding Mopria. But the interest in
doing so go pretty low when I consider the type of rudeness and lack of
respect you show in your messages.

Hope you got all you needed as information.

Good luck.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Fri 13 Aug 2021 at 09:10:06 -, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-12, Brian  wrote:
> >
> >> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
> >> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> >
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> >
> 
> 
>  The Page Description Languages (PDLs) currently supported by Mopria
>  Alliance include: PDF (from Adobe), PCL-m (from the Wi-Fi Alliance) and
>  PWG Raster (from the Printer Working Group standards body). Printer
>  manufacturers must support one of these PDLs to be compliant with the
>  current Mopria Alliance standard.
> 
> https://app.mopria.org/developer-faqs

Thank you, Curt. The web page source indicates 2018 as a possible date
of publication. This is more up-to-date than

 https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf

-- 
Brian. 

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 18:56:58 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> >>> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> >>>
>  I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
>  the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> 
>  It's the support of MOPRIA.
>  Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>  and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>  endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>  printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>  support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> 
>  So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
>  Debian).
> >>>
> >>> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> >>> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> >>> But is it the *best* criterion?
> >>>
> >>> I've now got my head around it.
> >>>
> >>> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> >>> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> > 
> > I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> > excrutiating detail.
> > 
> >> It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
> >> Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> > 
> > Correct.
> > 
> >> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
> >> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> > 
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> > 
> Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
> https://mopria.org/spec-download

That is a link to an HP scanning specification. Maybe I was less than
clear that printing and printers were the focus of my attention, not
scanning.

> >> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> >>
> >> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> > 
> > That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
> printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
> discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?

There are three criteria for a printer to be regarded as driverless.

1. The transport protocol must be IPP. Apple AirPrint uses it.
2. There must be a discovery protocol, mDNS/DNS-SD. Apple AirPrint uses
   it and calls it Bonjour.
3. There must be a PDL common to the client and the printer.

It is the third criterion in relation to Mopria that I am concerned
with. As you said above:

 > ...(will publish IP endpoint that support PostScript,
 > PCL and PDF,...

Leaving aside that PostScript and PCL are not acceptable driverless
PDLs, I was intrigued by the information that PDF is a common PDL
satisfying criterion 3 for a Mopria-certified printer. I read

  https://mopria.org/PDFs/Mopria_Whitepaper_092313.pdf

which is from 2013.

It says:

 > Page Description Languages WiFi Direct Services Print includes
 > PCL-m, PWG Raster
 > Standard Document Exchange Format JPEG, .png, PDF (future)

I then hoped (forlornly, it turns out) that you might know the present
status of PDF as a printing PDL in Mopria eight years afterwards. 

If you do not know, thats fine. We will leave it there.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Curt]

On 2021-08-12, Brian  wrote:
>
>> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
>
> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>


 The Page Description Languages (PDLs) currently supported by Mopria
 Alliance include: PDF (from Adobe), PCL-m (from the Wi-Fi Alliance) and
 PWG Raster (from the Printer Working Group standards body). Printer
 manufacturers must support one of these PDLs to be compliant with the
 current Mopria Alliance standard.

https://app.mopria.org/developer-faqs

Re: Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 09:03:11AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> deloptes wrote:
> > >  I think she is extreme left ...
> 
> Would be no surprise with our little commie operating system.

This list wouldn't be the same without your humour.

(and of course without your deep knowledge you share so
willingly)

> Have a nice day :)

I always have, after a post from you :)

I wish you the same.

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

deloptes wrote:
> >  I think she is extreme left ...

Would be no surprise with our little commie operating system.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> I strongly disagree.
> 

me too

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 08:42:55AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > Can we please avoid personal insults?

> I do not insult anyone and do not attack people [...]

I strongly disagree.

Rest taken off-list.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

OFFTOPIC Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Can we please avoid personal insults?
> 
> Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
> those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
> personally** does not belong in this list.

I do not insult anyone and do not attack people, please stop with this BS of
excuse by political correctness. 

I have also the right to feel insulted by her attitude, but do not make so
much noise as you do  aaah and now you tell me you are under personal
attack... never ending game - just forget it.

with respect as I usually do respect your contributions to the ML, when it
goes technical.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 07:08:06AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> 
> > Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> > a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> > in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> > 
> >> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> >> 
> >> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> > 
> > That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.

Can we please avoid personal insults?

Each of us has his/her difficult points. If you have issues with
those points, by all means, speak up. But **attacking people
personally** does not belong in this list.

Cheers
 - tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Weaver]

On 13-08-2021 15:08, deloptes wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> 
>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>
>>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>>>
>>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
>>
>> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 
> @Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
> a waste of time.
> I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
> think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
> French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
> information I found and her attitude here was enough for me so that I avoid
> replying to her posts. I mean she takes things personal and starts a
> discussion that never ends and brings nothing at the end - pure waste of
> time.
> However I must admit she stopped top posting and it could be she educates
> herself.

Agreed.
I took considerable time in trying to sort out a professed problem in
that area regarding supposed `incompetent medical practice open source
software', only to discover the software is present, but needs
legislative/regulatory approval for registration and licencing  for
application, apparently. In other words, no concern of Debian's, out of
context on this list (supposedly a concern of this individual), and
approaching the developers of any software that was satisfactorily
functional to organise an effort to gain the required legislative
approval, the appropriate course.
But convoluted, pyrotechnics appear to be the game, and deletion is my
usual response now.
Cheers!

Harry.  
-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[deloptes]

Brian wrote:

> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> 
>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>> 
>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> 
> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).

@Brian communication with Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside is meaningless and
a waste of time.
I even had to google her, because I had the feeling I talk to a troll. I
think she is extreme left ... lost in gendering and so on somewhere in
French Canada, but I do not have any evidence for that. However the
information I found and her attitude here was enough for me so that I avoid
replying to her posts. I mean she takes things personal and starts a
discussion that never ends and brings nothing at the end - pure waste of
time.
However I must admit she stopped top posting and it could be she educates
herself.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
 I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
 the reason I am writing this message regard something else.

 It's the support of MOPRIA.
 Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
 and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
 endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
 printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
 support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.

 So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
 Debian).
>>>
>>> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
>>> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
>>> But is it the *best* criterion?
>>>
>>> I've now got my head around it.
>>>
>>> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
>>> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
>>>
>>
>> Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> 
> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> excrutiating detail.
> 
>> It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
>> Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> 
> Correct.
> 
>> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> 
> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> 
I forgot some hard to find information from Wikipedia

If you doubt, 1st edit Wikipedia page and after this check the reference
down the page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopria_Alliance

*IPP*

Windows 10 support for Mopria certified printers
Microsoft implemented an IPP printing solution based on the Mopria
standard in the Windows 10, version 1809 operating system.

*autodiscovery*
Mopria Print Service
The Mopria Print Service for Android was released in the Google Play
store in October 2014. It is a plug-in that enables printing from
Android devices to Mopria certified printers and MFPs.

A client uses mDNS to automatically discover a printer through the local
802.11 wireless network. The printer must be connected to the network
either wirelessly or with an Ethernet cable. Mopria Print Service also
supports printer connection through Wi-Fi Direct.


>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>>
>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> 
> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).
> 

I've found truckload of information by doing a simple Google search of
*Mopria printer PDF support*, *Mopria printer IP support* what else do
you want ?

Make a effort or stick with the "I can't believe this, a *universal*
alliance of *supported printer* this can't be *true*

Yes and a alliance of supported universal video device (UVC) was
something we wouldn't have believed in 1999.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
 I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
 the reason I am writing this message regard something else.

 It's the support of MOPRIA.
 Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
 and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
 endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
 printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
 support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.

 So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
 Debian).
>>>
>>> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
>>> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
>>> But is it the *best* criterion?
>>>
>>> I've now got my head around it.
>>>
>>> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
>>> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
>>>
>>
>> Have you looked what does Mopria is ?
> 
> I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
> excrutiating detail.
> 
>> It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
>> Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
> 
> Correct.
> 
>> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
>> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".
> 
> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
> 
Like already written in my first post regarding this issue :
https://mopria.org/spec-download

>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
>>
>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> 
> That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).

Can you explain to me what does AirPrint has to do with driverless
printing ? Can you explain to me if AirPrint allow my printer automatic
discovery ? IPP ? JPEG/PDF direct printing ?

> 

I ain't here to convince anyone or try to show anything.
If you disagree with what I've said than it's your point and go on. I
already know that you'll keep on and possibly next time ask me what page
of the specifications.

I'll save some hassle and write it now.

Page 16 for the scanner specifications

--
All scanners and all eSCL clients MUST support at least two output data
formats:
JPEG and PDF. With PDF, the scanner can choose to embed JPEG and raster
images within a PDF envelop. More high-end scanners could perform OCR before
generating the PDF. Note that scanners can add ‘Rotate’ instructions
(transforms) to
PDF Page Objects if the page orientation is not correct.
--

You'll find the same for the printer specifications.

Before asking me to justify what I wrote, have you took the time to look
thru the specifications ?

...

https://mopria.org/Documents/Mopria_Alliance_Overview_FINAL.pdf

Mopria offers
share to open,
view or print
from app. Also
direct print of
PDF / JPEGs

Page 8 of the Mopria Alliance Overview

...

*What else do you need ?*
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
> >> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> >>
> >> It's the support of MOPRIA.
> >> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> >> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> >> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> >> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> >> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> >>
> >> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and 
> >> Debian).
> > 
> > I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> > determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> > But is it the *best* criterion?
> > 
> > I've now got my head around it.
> > 
> > Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> > to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> > 
> 
> Have you looked what does Mopria is ?

I have examined the aims and objectives of the Mopria Alliance in
excrutiating detail.

> It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
> Printing thru the use of IPP protocol

Correct.

> Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
> Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".

Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.

> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> 
> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.

That avoids any meaningful dialog (and is incorrect).

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-12 3:22 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
>> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
>>
>> It's the support of MOPRIA.
>> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
>>
>> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and Debian).
> 
> I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
> determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
> But is it the *best* criterion?
> 
> I've now got my head around it.
> 
> Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
> to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?
> 

Have you looked what does Mopria is ?

It require that the printer (and scanner) offer :
Printing thru the use of IPP protocol
Possibility to send the data in PDF format directly (or JPG)
Auto discovery of the services offered thru "Bonjour".

And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.

There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:29:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
> the reason I am writing this message regard something else.
> 
> It's the support of MOPRIA.
> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> 
> So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and Debian).

I was a bit taken aback when you advocated Mopria as a criterion for
determining whether a printer could be operated driverlessly on Debian.
But is it the *best* criterion?

I've now got my head around it.

Surely, it is better looking for AirPrint support in the printer specs
to determine the driverless capabilities of printer?

-- 
Brian

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 18:31:45 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-10 10:14 a.m., Nicolas George wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.
> > 
> > Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
> > play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
> > insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
> > at my preferred vendor (LDLC).
> > 
> > As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
> > and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?
> > 
> > The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
> > Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
> > software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools. I want to buy
> > according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
> > to warrant considering it?
> > 
> > Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?
> > 
> I'll add, here's the Mopria specs
> https://mopria.org/spec-download

These are not the Mopria specs. Does Mopria have specs? The document
relates to scanning with the eSCL protocol. This an Apple (and/or HP)
protocol. Will we ever know who was involved in its inception?

-- 
Brian.

-- 
Brian

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 09:13:36 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside (12021-08-10):
> > It's the support of MOPRIA.
> > Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> > and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> > endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> > printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> > support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer. There is a little information about it on the
> Debian websites, but very little. Wait and see.

Why should there be any information about Mopria on Debian websites?

Mopria is not a standards organiation. It is mainly a marketing
organisation that promotes printing and scanning with an Android phone
over WiFi. It is a closed (members-only) organization. A single device
is the focus of their attentions. Nothing wrong with that.

A Mopria certified printer uses IPP Everywhere for infrastructure
networks. IPP Everywhere *is* a printing standard and documented quite
well on our wiki.

>From my records, the device you intend buying is Mopria certified. This
isn't of any significance when printing from, say, Firefox because the
printing system is set up to use AirPrint's Apple raster by default. In
other words, Mopria certification doesn't give you anything. I cannot
imagine why it has been given such prominence.

We're getting complicated. Just buy the damn printer and use it :).

> PS: there was a "Reply-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org" header in the
> mail you were replying to. In the future, please do not override
> reply-to headers, they are there for a reason.

I know from the past that you find this behaviour aggravating. I wish
you had refrained from complaining in this thread. I have nothing else
to say on the matter.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 16:28:04 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> Le 11/08/2021 à 16:01, Brian a écrit :
> 
> > The point of "profiles" is to provide a simple way for enterprises to
> > configure/deploy IPP Everywhere queues (pointed at real printers, a
> > central CUPS server, etc.) when mDNS/DNS-SD isn't feasible.
> > 
> 
> In most enterprises, it will be "you want linux ? Ok, but do not ask
> anything, and if you cannit print, just use windows".

You have a legitimate concern that a user may not be on the same
network as the printer(s) he may want to contact. That's of concenn
with CUPS 2.3 and has been addressed elsewhere in this thead. The
link I gave should allay any worries that the issue will not be
tackled in a future CUPS 3.0.

How an enterprise treats its Linux-using employees or visitors is
not within the scope of CUPS.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Erwan David]

Le 11/08/2021 à 16:01, Brian a écrit :


The point of "profiles" is to provide a simple way for enterprises to
configure/deploy IPP Everywhere queues (pointed at real printers, a
central CUPS server, etc.) when mDNS/DNS-SD isn't feasible.



In most enterprises, it will be "you want linux ? Ok, but do not ask 
anything, and if you cannit print, just use windows".

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 14:15:49 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> Le 11/08/2021 à 12:36, Brian a écrit :
> > On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:19:37 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 19:54:23 +0100
> > > Brian  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hello Brian,
> > > 
> > > > As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
> > > > HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
> > > > packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.
> > > 
> > > When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
> > > printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
> > > remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.
> > 
> > The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
> > determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and drivers;
> > a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The choice will be
> > to have a working printing system using driverless or a non-working
> > printing system.
> > 
> 
> Or to have a non working printing solution because the new one does not
> cover the full range pof printing setups. Autodiscovery is good when
> possible, but removing any possibility not to use it is a fault, when
> autodiscovery does not work. I hope before cups is made unable to use PPD,
> the driverless system is made able to be given remote printers adresses and
> capabilities (also thinking to old printers which do not advertise
> capabilities the way you want).

Regarding autodiscovery not being a suitable technique: perhaps the
final item on page 22 at

  
https://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/liaison/openprinting/presentations/cups-plenary-may-2021.pdf

will help.

The point of "profiles" is to provide a simple way for enterprises to
configure/deploy IPP Everywhere queues (pointed at real printers, a
central CUPS server, etc.) when mDNS/DNS-SD isn't feasible.

-- 
Brian

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 13:20:37 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:00:51 - (UTC)
> Curt  wrote:
> 
> Hello Curt,
> 
> >Will I have to toss my trusty Brother HL-2030, brother? Fork Cups, I
> >guess, and full speed ahead.
> 
> Unless I'm reading it wrong (github post Brian cited elsewhere in this
> thread), mechanisms are in place for existing printers that require
> drivers to continue to be useable.

That is basically correct. The mechanism (a Printer Application) is
intended for legacy/classic printers only.
 
> If that's not the case, I'd expect to see a fork.

The fork took place a year ago. One of the reasons it was done was to
allow us to travel the road we are now on.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 12:39:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 11:36:40 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and driver
> 
> Indeed, you mentioned that previously (I'd forgotten already).  However,
> checking the github post you cite in another message (to this list), it
> would appear apple are putting in place mechanisms whereby affected
> printers will continue to useable in the new version of CUPS.

Apple aren't putting anything in place; OpenPrinting is. Apple ceased
to maintain CUPS some time ago.

   https://openprinting.github.io/documentation/01-printer-application/
 
> So not as bad a picture as it at first appears.

For free drivers, indeed not. We will have to wait and see how vendors
of non-free drivers respond.

Note that I did not say that HP's printing software would not be
available in the future.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 12:00:51 -, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-11, Brian  wrote:
> >> 
> >> When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
> >> printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
> >> remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.
> >
> > The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
> > determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and drivers;
> > a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The choice will be
> > to have a working printing system using driverless or a non-working
> > printing system.
> >
> 
> Will I have to toss my trusty Brother HL-2030, brother? Fork Cups, I
> guess, and full speed ahead.

This is a PostScript printer and catered for in Debian by a free driver,
if I am not mistaken. You will be provided with a Printer Application to
use.

  https://openprinting.github.io/documentation/01-printer-application/

Users who are have non-free Brother drivers will have to wait on the
vendor to distribute a (presumably non-free) Printer Application.

Incidentally, CUPS is already forked at OpenPrinting. That is why we are
going in the direction we are :).

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:00:51 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

Hello Curt,

>Will I have to toss my trusty Brother HL-2030, brother? Fork Cups, I
>guess, and full speed ahead.

Unless I'm reading it wrong (github post Brian cited elsewhere in this
thread), mechanisms are in place for existing printers that require
drivers to continue to be useable.

If that's not the case, I'd expect to see a fork.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Bet you thought you knew what I was about
Problem - Sex Pistols


pgp49mLSmtFmh.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 11:36:40 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,

>a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and driver

Indeed, you mentioned that previously (I'd forgotten already).  However,
checking the github post you cite in another message (to this list), it
would appear apple are putting in place mechanisms whereby affected
printers will continue to useable in the new version of CUPS.

So not as bad a picture as it at first appears.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
It's only bits of plastic, lines projected on the wall
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators


pgpfpfRXdnAs3.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Erwan David]

Le 11/08/2021 à 12:36, Brian a écrit :

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:19:37 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:


On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 19:54:23 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,


As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.


When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.


The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and drivers;
a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The choice will be
to have a working printing system using driverless or a non-working
printing system.



Or to have a non working printing solution because the new one does not 
cover the full range pof printing setups. Autodiscovery is good when 
possible, but removing any possibility not to use it is a fault, when 
autodiscovery does not work. I hope before cups is made unable to use 
PPD, the driverless system is made able to be given remote printers 
adresses and capabilities (also thinking to old printers which do not 
advertise capabilities the way you want).

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 11 August 2021 08:00:51 Curt wrote:

> On 2021-08-11, Brian  wrote:
> >> When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no
> >> no-driverless printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd
> >> expect HPLIP to remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.
> >
> > The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
> > determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and
> > drivers; a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The
> > choice will be to have a working printing system using driverless or
> > a non-working printing system.
>
> Will I have to toss my trusty Brother HL-2030, brother? Fork Cups, I
> guess, and full speed ahead.

You will have company at that campsite, I'm using 2 brothers ATM, which 
are working well while a 3rd one languishes because Brother will not 
sell me, a Certified Electronics Technician, a replacement corona wire 
generator board.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Curt]

On 2021-08-11, Brian  wrote:
>> 
>> When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
>> printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
>> remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.
>
> The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
> determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and drivers;
> a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The choice will be
> to have a working printing system using driverless or a non-working
> printing system.
>

Will I have to toss my trusty Brother HL-2030, brother? Fork Cups, I
guess, and full speed ahead.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 13:42:00 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:14:10AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:00:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Le 10/08/2021 à 21:48, Brian a écrit :
> > > > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 20:57:56 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
> > > > > https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to 
> > > > > handle
> > > > > the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
> > > > > on the same network as the printer.
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps cups-browsed migt help you.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > No all zeroconf based scheme is limited to the local (L2 network). And
> > > printer on a separate network is the standard setup in offices.
> > 
> > I thought you might have read cups-browsed.conf(5). Doesn't the
> > BrowsePoll directive provide a solution?
> 
> Using BrowsePoll to overcome that problem assumes that you know what
> IP/hostname your printer(s) have.
> I.e. instead of relying on DNS-SD autodiscovery (which is limited to a
> single L2 network segment) one you're proposing to hardcode printers'
> IPs/hostnames into cups-browsed.conf.

I was actually pointing the user in the direction of something he might
not have been aware of, not proposing a definitive solution. You are
correct about hardcoding IPs/hostnames, but the same has to be done
with a client.conf.

> But this makes cups-browsed redundant, because one might as well use
> ServerName in client.conf instead and achieve the same result. And
> probably it will even work better as it will skip that per-minute poll.

You can have only a single ServerName but multiple BrowsePoll entries.
> 
> Using Samba's printer sharing makes much more sense in a such setup.

The user now has three possible solutions.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 04:21:06 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> I doubt that driver will really be gone as printer have specific options
> like the number of drawer, the precision (DPI) and much more.
> 
> Often I've read "XYZ will have no place in the future" but still is
> being used today and has even grown.

All the code supporting drivers and PPDs will be removed from a future
CUPS. It's as simple as that.

  https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cups/issues/103

> Driverless is somewhat a euphemism for generic. As a example, most USB
> mouse are considered *driverless* but the reality is more that they use
> the generic USB driver. Same goes for USB webcam that are sold as
> *driverless* but use the USB Video driver.

Driverless printing should be understood in the context of the
client system. A laptop (or iOS/Android phone) moves between
different locations. If using a legacy printing system, there
would need to be new drivers installed and new print queues set
up to match the different printers encountered.

A driver printing system does not need to go though any of the
above contortions. From the point of view of the client, printing
just works. I suppose we could call it a "non-vendor driver and
PPD-less system", but that is a bit of a mouthful :).

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Reco]

Hi.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:14:10AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:00:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Le 10/08/2021 à 21:48, Brian a écrit :
> > > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 20:57:56 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
> > > > https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to handle
> > > > the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
> > > > on the same network as the printer.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps cups-browsed migt help you.
> > > 
> > 
> > No all zeroconf based scheme is limited to the local (L2 network). And
> > printer on a separate network is the standard setup in offices.
> 
> I thought you might have read cups-browsed.conf(5). Doesn't the
> BrowsePoll directive provide a solution?

Using BrowsePoll to overcome that problem assumes that you know what
IP/hostname your printer(s) have.
I.e. instead of relying on DNS-SD autodiscovery (which is limited to a
single L2 network segment) one you're proposing to hardcode printers'
IPs/hostnames into cups-browsed.conf.
But this makes cups-browsed redundant, because one might as well use
ServerName in client.conf instead and achieve the same result. And
probably it will even work better as it will skip that per-minute poll.

Using Samba's printer sharing makes much more sense in a such setup.

Reco

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:19:37 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 19:54:23 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
> >HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
> >packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.
> 
> When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
> printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
> remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.

The condition you lay down in the first sentence is not a factor in
determining whether Debian packages HPLIP. HPLIP uses PPDs and drivers;
a future CUPS will not work with PPDs and drivers. The choice will be
to have a working printing system using driverless or a non-working
printing system.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Wed 11 Aug 2021 at 08:00:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

[...]

> Le 10/08/2021 à 21:48, Brian a écrit :
> > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 20:57:56 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> > > > 
> > > We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to handle
> > > the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
> > > on the same network as the printer.
> > 
> > Perhaps cups-browsed migt help you.
> > 
> 
> No all zeroconf based scheme is limited to the local (L2 network). And
> printer on a separate network is the standard setup in offices.

I thought you might have read cups-browsed.conf(5). Doesn't the
BrowsePoll directive provide a solution?

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-10 1:56 p.m., Erwan David wrote:
> Le 10/08/2021 à 16:59, Brian a écrit :
>>
>> CUPS will cease to support drivers and PPDs in the coming years. Users
>> may as well come to terms with driverless printing. HPLIP and other
>> vendor drivers will not have any place in a future CUPS. 
>>
> 
> Do you have some pointers to what we must do to use this driverless
> printing and scanning ?
> 
> 
Driverless printing mostly means that you are using a printer that
support autodiscovery with IPP (internet print protocol) and accept
directly format such as PDF or JPEG.

One example of such type of implementation would be Mopria (and many others)

Here's a example of such specification
https://mopria.org/spec-download

Mopria is nothing else than IPP with Bonjour discovery support.

As a example, my printer can be used with USB. In this case, CUPS will
detect it and suggest a driver (or use the generic driverless based on
PDF/PCL/PS).

If I choose network discovery when adding a new printer, I'll see many
printer found (even if I got only one on the network). It will say
"Internet Print Protocol (driverless)" with different options like PDF/PCL.

I doubt that driver will really be gone as printer have specific options
like the number of drawer, the precision (DPI) and much more.

Often I've read "XYZ will have no place in the future" but still is
being used today and has even grown.

Driverless is somewhat a euphemism for generic. As a example, most USB
mouse are considered *driverless* but the reality is more that they use
the generic USB driver. Same goes for USB webcam that are sold as
*driverless* but use the USB Video driver.
> 

Hope this help

If you want more information or a screenshot of the add printer screen
on CUPS with the list of *driverless* printer found. Then I'll be glad
to do my best to help you out.

Don't hesitate.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-11 3:13 a.m., Nicolas George wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside (12021-08-10):
>> It's the support of MOPRIA.
>> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
>> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
>> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
>> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
>> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer. There is a little information about it on the
> Debian websites, but very little. Wait and see.
Wait and see ?
Why would I wait for something ? And see what ?

I'm totally happy with my system and don't have any problem using any
*Mopria* supported printer on my network. And same applies for the use
of scanning too.

> 
> PS: there was a "Reply-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org" header in the
> mail you were replying to. In the future, please do not override
> reply-to headers, they are there for a reason.
> 
On the debian-user mailing list there's many time that a user will send
mail to the list without being a subscriber. This is the reason why I'll
send the answer back on both the list and the user's email.

You can use a forwarding address for return or other methods if you want
to keep your anonymity or avoid getting email from outside.

Sorry if this annoyed yourself but a long time Debian user of this
mailing list, who could also be considered "part of Debian" gave me the
hint of replying directly to the user when it comes to this mailing list.

I will mostly continue to do so.

I am totally aware of the use of headers. I simply hit *reply* in my
mail client. Yes, I could have used *reply to list* and add the user's
email as carbon copy (*CC*).

> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 19:54:23 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,

>As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
>HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
>packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.

When, eventually, all HP printers run driverless _and_ no no-driverless
printer exist 'in the wild', yes.  Until then, I'd expect HPLIP to
remain.  Debian is, after all, about choice.

>Stick with what you have (it works) but think about getting ahead of the
>game.

I try to not get caught out, but sometimes, things pass me by.

For example, when I installed the new printer, I was aware of driverless
printing, but didn't have time to research it - we had a backlog of
printing to do, and ppl were /screaming/ at me to be able to print.

This was family, BTW:  *Far* worse than any employer I've ever worked
for.   :-D

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
It's the age of destruction, in a world of corruption
Neuromancer - Billy Idol


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside (12021-08-10):
> It's the support of MOPRIA.
> Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
> and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
> endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
> printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
> support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.

Thanks for the pointer. There is a little information about it on the
Debian websites, but very little. Wait and see.

PS: there was a "Reply-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org" header in the
mail you were replying to. In the future, please do not override
reply-to headers, they are there for a reason.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Erwan David]

Le 10/08/2021 à 21:48, Brian a écrit :

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 20:57:56 +0200, Erwan David wrote:


Le 10/08/2021 à 20:54, Brian a écrit :

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 19:01:30 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:


On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:44:18 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,


Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web

NP, Brian.


page. To my mind it is not a showstopper.

Nor to me.  It's simply convenient.


Enjoy the applet while you can.

Probably when I get a new machine.  Which should be some years away -
I've only had this one about a year.  Unless, of course, I'm forced to
remove HPLIP by some upgrade or other in the mean time.

As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.

Stick with what you have (it works) but think about getting ahead of the
game.


We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to handle
the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
on the same network as the printer.


Perhaps cups-browsed migt help you.



No all zeroconf based scheme is limited to the local (L2 network). And 
printer on a separate network is the standard setup in offices.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-10 10:14 a.m., Nicolas George wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.
> 
> Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
> play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
> insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
> at my preferred vendor (LDLC).
> 
> As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
> and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?
> 
> The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
> Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
> software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools. I want to buy
> according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
> to warrant considering it?
> 
> Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?
> 
I'll add, here's the Mopria specs
https://mopria.org/spec-download

> (If your remark is along the lines: "not inkjet, laser" or "not
> all-in-one, separate devices", save your time, I have already heard the
> arguments and I know the constraints I am working with.)
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-10 10:14 a.m., Nicolas George wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.
> 
> Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
> play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
> insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
> at my preferred vendor (LDLC).
> 
> As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
> and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?
> 
> The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
> Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
> software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools. I want to buy
> according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
> to warrant considering it?
> 
> Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?
> 
I'm using a Xerox B205 MFC and it's fully supported. Yes it's laser but
the reason I am writing this message regard something else.

It's the support of MOPRIA.
Even if it's mostly made for Android, what it does is offer a discovery
and printing protocol compatible with all CUPS system (will publish IP
endpoint that support PostScript, PCL and PDF, all depending on the
printer but at least one of them). Regarding the scanner, it will
support sending by email thru the use of a SMTP server account.

So I think we can say these devices will be supported by Linux (and Debian).

Here's the link for Mopria association.

https://mopria.org/certified-products

Even if my model is not listed there (B205), on the Xerox website it
says that it's supported.

> (If your remark is along the lines: "not inkjet, laser" or "not
> all-in-one, separate devices", save your time, I have already heard the
> arguments and I know the constraints I am working with.)
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
Hope this shine a light to something nice to be investigated.
> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 20:57:56 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> Le 10/08/2021 à 20:54, Brian a écrit :
> > On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 19:01:30 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:44:18 +0100
> >> Brian  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Brian,
> >>
> >>> Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web
> >> NP, Brian.
> >>
> >>> page. To my mind it is not a showstopper.
> >> Nor to me.  It's simply convenient.
> >>
> >>> Enjoy the applet while you can.
> >> Probably when I get a new machine.  Which should be some years away -
> >> I've only had this one about a year.  Unless, of course, I'm forced to
> >> remove HPLIP by some upgrade or other in the mean time.
> > As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
> > HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
> > packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.
> >
> > Stick with what you have (it works) but think about getting ahead of the
> > game.
> >
> We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
> https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to handle
> the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
> on the same network as the printer.

Perhaps cups-browsed migt help you.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Erwan David]

Le 10/08/2021 à 20:54, Brian a écrit :
> On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 19:01:30 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:44:18 +0100
>> Brian  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Brian,
>>
>>> Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web
>> NP, Brian.
>>
>>> page. To my mind it is not a showstopper.
>> Nor to me.  It's simply convenient.
>>
>>> Enjoy the applet while you can.
>> Probably when I get a new machine.  Which should be some years away -
>> I've only had this one about a year.  Unless, of course, I'm forced to
>> remove HPLIP by some upgrade or other in the mean time.
> As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
> HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
> packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.
>
> Stick with what you have (it works) but think about getting ahead of the
> game.
>
We'll see at that time, especially since what I read from
https://wiki.debian.org/CUPSDriverlessPrinting makes it unable to handle
the cases where you must use a print serer or the one where you're not
on the same network as the printer.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 19:56:21 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> Le 10/08/2021 à 16:59, Brian a écrit :
> >
> > CUPS will cease to support drivers and PPDs in the coming years. Users
> > may as well come to terms with driverless printing. HPLIP and other
> > vendor drivers will not have any place in a future CUPS. 
> >
> 
> Do you have some pointers to what we must do to use this driverless
> printing and scanning ?

You could read our wiki.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 19:01:30 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:44:18 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web
> 
> NP, Brian.
> 
> >page. To my mind it is not a showstopper.
> 
> Nor to me.  It's simply convenient.
> 
> >Enjoy the applet while you can.
> 
> Probably when I get a new machine.  Which should be some years away -
> I've only had this one about a year.  Unless, of course, I'm forced to
> remove HPLIP by some upgrade or other in the mean time.

As I've said previously, a future CUPS will not support printer drivers.
HPLIP provides printer drivers. There will be little point in Debian
packaging HPLIP, wouldn't you agree? But this is a few years away.

Stick with what you have (it works) but think about getting ahead of the
game.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:44:18 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,

>Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web

NP, Brian.

>page. To my mind it is not a showstopper.

Nor to me.  It's simply convenient.

>Enjoy the applet while you can.

Probably when I get a new machine.  Which should be some years away -
I've only had this one about a year.  Unless, of course, I'm forced to
remove HPLIP by some upgrade or other in the mean time.

Cheers.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
All these things are mine!
Money is Not Our God -  Killing Joke


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Erwan David]

Le 10/08/2021 à 16:59, Brian a écrit :
>
> CUPS will cease to support drivers and PPDs in the coming years. Users
> may as well come to terms with driverless printing. HPLIP and other
> vendor drivers will not have any place in a future CUPS. 
>

Do you have some pointers to what we must do to use this driverless
printing and scanning ?

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 17:51:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 17:18:30 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> >I can understand using HPLIP instead of driverless printing if you
> >had a USB connection and were on buster, but not if the device has
> >a network connection or is on bullseye. Does choosing to employ
> 
> Hang over from a previous HP printer install;  An HP 6700 AiO printer
> which died recently, despite attempts to revive it with a good clean
> out and a new printhead assy.
> 
> As for why use HPLIP - I used the install that was already there, just
> updating it for the new printer.  It works well enough for me.
> Personally, I like having HPLIP's Device Status applet for ink level
> checking (printer is not in same room as computer), as that is all I need
> to see.  The printer's web page is overkill.  IMO, of course,

Thank you for the response, Brad. I see the point about applet verus web
page. To my mind it is not a showstopper. Enjoy the applet while you can.

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 17:18:30 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,

>I can understand using HPLIP instead of driverless printing if you
>had a USB connection and were on buster, but not if the device has
>a network connection or is on bullseye. Does choosing to employ

Hang over from a previous HP printer install;  An HP 6700 AiO printer
which died recently, despite attempts to revive it with a good clean
out and a new printhead assy.

As for why use HPLIP - I used the install that was already there, just
updating it for the new printer.  It works well enough for me.
Personally, I like having HPLIP's Device Status applet for ink level
checking (printer is not in same room as computer), as that is all I need
to see.  The printer's web page is overkill.  IMO, of course,

>Surely HP in the package's name is not the incentive?

See above.  But to answer directly;  No.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Dream on white boy, dream on black girl
Original Sin - INXS


pgpoPKI69Diqc.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 15:34:52 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:14:38 +0200
> Nicolas George  wrote:
> 
> Hello Nicolas,
> 
> >insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
> >at my preferred vendor (LDLC).
> 
> That's the one I've got here.  Runs fine.

Very useful info.
 
> There's one oddity, if you use HP Device Manager - When the GUI first
> comes up, there's nothing shown.  However, after a short wait (30 secs
> max), ink levels and Actions all show.  It may be the way I've set things
> up, of course.

I can understand using HPLIP instead of driverless printing if you
had a USB connection and were on buster, but not if the device has
a network connection or is on bullseye. Does choosing to employ
HPLIP have some advantage? I know many users do the same as you do.
Surely HP in the package's name is not the incentive?

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12021-08-10):
> Over the years HP has been a stalwart supporter of Linix printing and
> imaging via HPLIP. However, any *modern* MFD made by HP supports a
> driverless printing environment such as the one Debian provides. HPLIP
> is, in fact, redundant with a modern MFD.

> You are not mistaken. But not only Does Debian provide driverless
> printing but it also provides driverless scanning via SANE and, in
> addition, the sane-airscan package. sane-airscan is in bullseye and
> in buster-bacports.

> Whatever has been said above also applies to to any other *modern*
> device from these vendors.

> CUPS will cease to support drivers and PPDs in the coming years. Users
> may as well come to terms with driverless printing. HPLIP and other
> vendor drivers will not have any place in a future CUPS. 

Thank you for these very helpful general informations, and thanks to
Brad for the specific information about the particular model.

About Brother: the only model worth considering for us is the
DCP-J1200DW, and it is only a little cheaper than the HP, and the
characteristics of the HP are a little better, including double-sided
printing which is not necessary for our use but still a nice thing to
have.

Considering that AFAIK Brother is more reputed for its laser printers
than for all-in-one inkjets and that I want to recompense being a
stalwart supporter of Linux printing, I think I will stay with the HP.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brian]

On Tue 10 Aug 2021 at 16:14:38 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.
> 
> Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
> play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
> insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
> at my preferred vendor (LDLC).

Over the years HP has been a stalwart supporter of Linix printing and
imaging via HPLIP. However, any *modern* MFD made by HP supports a
driverless printing environment such as the one Debian provides. HPLIP
is, in fact, redundant with a modern MFD.

> As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
> and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?

You are not mistaken. But not only Does Debian provide driverless
printing but it also provides driverless scanning via SANE and, in
addition, the sane-airscan package. sane-airscan is in bullseye and
in buster-bacports.

> The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
> Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
> software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools. I want to buy
> according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
> to warrant considering it?

Whatever has been said above also applies to to any other *modern*
device from these vendors.

> Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?

CUPS will cease to support drivers and PPDs in the coming years. Users
may as well come to terms with driverless printing. HPLIP and other
vendor drivers will not have any place in a future CUPS. 

-- 
Brian.

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:14:38 +0200
Nicolas George  wrote:

Hello Nicolas,

>insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
>at my preferred vendor (LDLC).

That's the one I've got here.  Runs fine.

There's one oddity, if you use HP Device Manager - When the GUI first
comes up, there's nothing shown.  However, after a short wait (30 secs
max), ink levels and Actions all show.  It may be the way I've set things
up, of course.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
You're the psychotic daughter of a psychotic mother
Pure Mania - The Vibrators


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Stephen P. Molnar]

On 08/10/2021 10:14 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

Hi.

We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.

Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
at my preferred vendor (LDLC).

As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?

The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools. I want to buy
according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
to warrant considering it?

Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?

(If your remark is along the lines: "not inkjet, laser" or "not
all-in-one, separate devices", save your time, I have already heard the
arguments and I know the constraints I am working with.)

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

For what it might be worth, I switched to a Brother DCP-L2550DW Laser 
Printer a couple of years ago. I has given me no problems with Buster 
(or with my Win 10 Laptop). There are after market dealers out there 
that have replacement for Toner Cartridges and Drums for a reasonable 
price. Iroutinly get 1200 to 1500 pagers per Toner Cartridge.


Of course, if your looking for color, this is not the printer for you.

--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
www.molecular-modeling.net
614.312.7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Peter Ehlert]

On 8/10/21 7:14 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

Hi.

We need to replace an all-in-one printer-scanner, a HP Deskjet 3054A.

Based on past experience, I am favoring HP, because AFAIK they mostly
play fair about Libre drivers, and their ink is too expensive but not
insanely so. The HP OfficeJet 8012 seems the most interesting available
at my preferred vendor (LDLC).

As far as I can see, it would be supported through driverless printing
and sane-hpaio. Am I mistaken?

The vendor has other models has other models by Epson, Canon and
Brother. I remember these brands have caused trouble to users of Libre
software, unlike HP who develops its own Libre tools.
I have been using a Brother MFC-J6710DW for quite some time...it seems 
to be well supported using the Brother website

I do not know if it is truly Libre

it is defiantly time to replace it, I will investigate the HP OfficeJet 8012

I want to buy
according to my ethics. Has one of them turned its policy around enough
to warrant considering it?

Is there any other remark you may want to do about it?

(If your remark is along the lines: "not inkjet, laser" or "not
all-in-one, separate devices", save your time, I have already heard the
arguments and I know the constraints I am working with.)

Thanks in advance.

Regards,