Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Please excuse my fair assumption about the libs and services in the
document

Key takeaways from the document

We can definitely add support for diff types of services that gets added
via provisioner at the moment it’s binded through the Anubis to a single dB
,

How can we make it more open to different Lang’s and framework?

Last is I would like to see if we change the project structure does it
increase contribution rate ?

Slowly after researching I am getting to know it’s a great product actually
thanks Myrle to such efforts

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021, Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> Hey Myrle please refer to this update document
>
> This report is not confidential and is open for suggestions
>
> Any microservice architecture that is defined and is in practice with the
> active forces and that comes with solution as reference from link
> 
>
> Forces
>
>-
>
>There is a team of developers working on the application
>-
>
>New team members must quickly become productive
>-
>
>The application must be easy to understand and modify
>-
>
>You want to practice continuous deployment of the application
>-
>
>You must run multiple instances of the application on multiple
>machines in order to satisfy scalability and availability requirements
>-
>
>You want to take advantage of emerging technologies (frameworks,
>programming languages, etc)
>
> Solution
>
> Define an architecture that structures the application as a set of loosely
> coupled, collaborating services. This approach corresponds to the Y-axis of
> the Scale Cube . Each
> service is:
>
>-
>
>Highly maintainable and testable - enables rapid and frequent
>development and deployment
>-
>
>Loosely coupled with other services - enables a team to work
>independently the majority of time on their service(s) without being
>impacted by changes to other services and without affecting other services
>-
>
>Independently deployable - enables a team to deploy their service
>without having to coordinate with other teams
>-
>
>Capable of being developed by a small team - essential for high
>productivity by avoiding the high communication head of large teams
>
>
> The above defined terms clearly outlines the idea of a microservices, the
> original premise is that any team or an individual could develop their own
> set of service without bothering about the other set of services and
> connect with other services with proper set of auth and middleware kind of
> approach like using a service broker or message delivery service.
>
> This is what microservice means , now this term has been defined by
> experts and developers who have tested this approach in different
> scenarios. Microservice is more like a design pattern. There is no fixed
> idea or a tech stack like for example in cases like two different services
> communicating with each other over the internet or intranet can also be
> encompassed as microservice.
>
> Microservice is a quasi distributed system that reduces the monolithic
> approach of dealing with a single application or service. Now developers
> face the complexity of understanding new ideas like connecting with other
> services using Eureka, ideas like circuit breaker. It becomes more
> difficult to test the services since services are isolated.
> Fineract CN
>
> Primary architecture of fineract is based on the idea of Microservices the
> project are structured primarily with three different sub projects
>
>
>1.
>
>API
>2.
>
>Service
>3.
>
>Component test
>
>
> Lets understand what does these terms are
>
> API deals with  functions that define the domain , defines the client with
> mapping of GET and other HTTP verbs and validation; it acts like an
> interface for communication. Using Active MQ that emits the events from the
> API
>
> Services deals with the registration with Eureka, migration of DB and we
> can assume that it does the configuration for spring services also. Command
> handler in the code is defined in the services project. Mapping and
> repository is also defined here, so to speak, services is the communication
> between other services and is deployed also at the runtime.
>
> Component test as the name suggests does the testing for the single
> service by mocking using test libs and suite.
>
> Most of the project is structured in the above approach , the first
> approach is time consuming defining three different sub projects. Any
> simple developer would want to have a single project and use
> libs/dependency to achieve the above task.
>
> Proposing a simple structure here , we can take out the API / Service /
> Component test as root project and come up with below file structure
>
> src/main/java/org/apache/fineract/cn/
>
>1.
>
>logging/
>2.
>
>client /
>3.
>
>config /
>4.
>
> 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Hey Myrle please refer to this update document

This report is not confidential and is open for suggestions

Any microservice architecture that is defined and is in practice with the
active forces and that comes with solution as reference from link


Forces

   -

   There is a team of developers working on the application
   -

   New team members must quickly become productive
   -

   The application must be easy to understand and modify
   -

   You want to practice continuous deployment of the application
   -

   You must run multiple instances of the application on multiple machines
   in order to satisfy scalability and availability requirements
   -

   You want to take advantage of emerging technologies (frameworks,
   programming languages, etc)

Solution

Define an architecture that structures the application as a set of loosely
coupled, collaborating services. This approach corresponds to the Y-axis of
the Scale Cube . Each
service is:

   -

   Highly maintainable and testable - enables rapid and frequent
   development and deployment
   -

   Loosely coupled with other services - enables a team to work
   independently the majority of time on their service(s) without being
   impacted by changes to other services and without affecting other services
   -

   Independently deployable - enables a team to deploy their service
   without having to coordinate with other teams
   -

   Capable of being developed by a small team - essential for high
   productivity by avoiding the high communication head of large teams


The above defined terms clearly outlines the idea of a microservices, the
original premise is that any team or an individual could develop their own
set of service without bothering about the other set of services and
connect with other services with proper set of auth and middleware kind of
approach like using a service broker or message delivery service.

This is what microservice means , now this term has been defined by experts
and developers who have tested this approach in different scenarios.
Microservice is more like a design pattern. There is no fixed idea or a
tech stack like for example in cases like two different services
communicating with each other over the internet or intranet can also be
encompassed as microservice.

Microservice is a quasi distributed system that reduces the monolithic
approach of dealing with a single application or service. Now developers
face the complexity of understanding new ideas like connecting with other
services using Eureka, ideas like circuit breaker. It becomes more
difficult to test the services since services are isolated.
Fineract CN

Primary architecture of fineract is based on the idea of Microservices the
project are structured primarily with three different sub projects


   1.

   API
   2.

   Service
   3.

   Component test


Lets understand what does these terms are

API deals with  functions that define the domain , defines the client with
mapping of GET and other HTTP verbs and validation; it acts like an
interface for communication. Using Active MQ that emits the events from the
API

Services deals with the registration with Eureka, migration of DB and we
can assume that it does the configuration for spring services also. Command
handler in the code is defined in the services project. Mapping and
repository is also defined here, so to speak, services is the communication
between other services and is deployed also at the runtime.

Component test as the name suggests does the testing for the single service
by mocking using test libs and suite.

Most of the project is structured in the above approach , the first
approach is time consuming defining three different sub projects. Any
simple developer would want to have a single project and use
libs/dependency to achieve the above task.

Proposing a simple structure here , we can take out the API / Service /
Component test as root project and come up with below file structure

src/main/java/org/apache/fineract/cn/

   1.

   logging/
   2.

   client /
   3.

   config /
   4.

   domain /
   5.

   repository /
   6.

   security /
   7.

   service /
   8.

   web /rest


The above structure is simplified and does the same as above and reduces
these sub-projects to a single project ,and  is more known to the
developers and adopts the naming convention that is familiar. It removes
the burden for maintaining three separate projects.

One might say that the internal libs and code patterns are different and, I
assume that we can simply adopt those things here also in the same project
structure.

Lets focus on the other side of the project which are other services and
lets see what they are and if any improvements can be made.

Provisioner

This does the resource binding and more specifically with respect to the
tenant and allocates the DB , that gets binded by the Anubis and 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

This report is not confidential and is open for suggestions

Any microservice architecture that is defined and is in practice with the
active forces and that comes with solution as reference from link


Forces

   -

   There is a team of developers working on the application
   -

   New team members must quickly become productive
   -

   The application must be easy to understand and modify
   -

   You want to practice continuous deployment of the application
   -

   You must run multiple instances of the application on multiple machines
   in order to satisfy scalability and availability requirements
   -

   You want to take advantage of emerging technologies (frameworks,
   programming languages, etc)

Solution

Define an architecture that structures the application as a set of loosely
coupled, collaborating services. This approach corresponds to the Y-axis of
the Scale Cube . Each
service is:

   -

   Highly maintainable and testable - enables rapid and frequent
   development and deployment
   -

   Loosely coupled with other services - enables a team to work
   independently the majority of time on their service(s) without being
   impacted by changes to other services and without affecting other services
   -

   Independently deployable - enables a team to deploy their service
   without having to coordinate with other teams
   -

   Capable of being developed by a small team - essential for high
   productivity by avoiding the high communication head of large teams


The above defined terms clearly outlines the idea of a microservices, the
original premise is that any team or an individual could develop their own
set of service without bothering about the other set of services and
connect with other services with proper set of auth and middleware kind of
approach like using a service broker or message delivery service.

This is what microservice means , now this term has been defined by experts
and developers who have tested this approach in different scenarios.
Microservice is more like a design pattern. There is no fixed idea or a
tech stack like for example in cases like two different services
communicating with each other over the internet or intranet can also be
encompassed as microservice.

Microservice is a quasi distributed system that reduces the monolithic
approach of dealing with a single application or service. Now developers
face the complexity of understanding new ideas like connecting with other
services using Eureka, ideas like circuit breaker. It becomes more
difficult to test the services since services are isolated.
Fineract CN

Primary architecture of fineract is based on the idea of Microservices the
project are structured primarily with three different sub projects


   1.

   API
   2.

   Service
   3.

   Component test


Lets understand what does these terms are

API deals with  functions that define the domain , defines the client with
mapping of GET and other HTTP verbs and validation; it acts like an
interface for communication. Using Active MQ that emits the events from the
API

Services deals with the registration with Eureka, migration of DB and we
can assume that it does the configuration for spring services also. Command
handler in the code is defined in the services project. Mapping and
repository is also defined here, so to speak, services is the communication
between other services and is deployed also at the runtime.

Component test as the name suggests does the testing for the single service
by mocking using test libs and suite.

Most of the project is structured in the above approach , the first
approach is time consuming defining three different sub projects. Any
simple developer would want to have a single project and use
libs/dependency to achieve the above task.

Proposing a simple structure here , we can take out the API / Service /
Component test as root project and come up with below file structure

src/main/java/org/apache/fineract/cn/

   1.

   logging/
   2.

   client /
   3.

   config /
   4.

   domain /
   5.

   repository /
   6.

   security /
   7.

   service /
   8.

   web /rest

The above structure is more simplified and does the same as above and
reduces these sub-projects to a single project ,and  is more known to the
developers and adopts the naming convention that is familiar. It removes
the burden for maintaining three separate projects.

One might say that the internal libs and code patterns are different and, I
assume that we can simply adopt those things here also in the same project
structure.

Lets focus on the other side of the project which are other services and
lets see what they are and if any improvements can be made.

Provisioner

This does the resource binding and more specifically with respect to the
tenant and allocates the DB , that gets binded by the Anubis and Identity
service, at the same time this 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

I will present  a report sometime today to conclude some of my study. Bear
with me and you will have some new findings.

Thanks



On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:06 AM Myrle Krantz  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:33 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> To summarise the survey
>>
>> Monolithic versus Micro-services
>>
>> Right now Fineract CN is a monolithic application although services
>> interact with a set of core libs that are acting as dependencies . These
>> dependencies need to be maintained alongside the core service
>>
>
> Fineract CN is not a monolith and no survey has claimed that.  Stop it
> Saransh; you're spreading misinformation.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>


-- 
Thanks and regards,

Saransh Sharma
Research Partner

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Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Myrle Krantz]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:33 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> To summarise the survey
>
> Monolithic versus Micro-services
>
> Right now Fineract CN is a monolithic application although services
> interact with a set of core libs that are acting as dependencies . These
> dependencies need to be maintained alongside the core service
>

Fineract CN is not a monolith and no survey has claimed that.  Stop it
Saransh; you're spreading misinformation.

Best,
Myrle

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

To summarise the survey

Monolithic versus Micro-services

Right now Fineract CN is a monolithic application although services
interact with a set of core libs that are acting as dependencies . These
dependencies need to be maintained alongside the core service

If I want to write a service I am bounded as of now use the existing
template that is shipped with existing dependencies. I am restricted to use
certain libs and patterns that are anti micro services in nature

I can most probably only use Java based service to interact using Eureka
any other Lang I cannot use .

So far two people from the community are saying let’s just stick with this
approach and calling this as micro service also

Perhaps after a round of further additional information we can open votes
to see what exactly community would want

On Monday, September 27, 2021, Saransh Sharma  wrote:

> I understand Awasum , but this thread is a survey about the Fineract CN
> improvement and nothing else.  Myrle lets treat this as a survey so that we
> can learn from the past.
>
> Please help me close this issue FINC-352
>
> Thanks
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:46 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey, I have opened an JIRA link with suggestion from Ronal
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-352
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:35 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>>
>>> My point was that people who contributed in the past have identified
>>> issues which when solved will make Fineract CN easy to develop. Here is
>>> one: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>>>
>>> We should be focused on removing those blockers and still using the
>>> current Language (Java), Framework (Spring) and DBs until we get version
>>> one.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:57 PM Saransh Sharma 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 You see that;s what i mean the services consume a lot of memory because
 you know and I know why? Right

 Anyway let's work together to pave a path, I am just trying to
 incentivise people here who can maybe help.

 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:22 PM Awasum Yannick 
 wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
>> contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
>> thing, let's keep it that way.
>>
>> I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I
>> think we are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project 
>> in
>> terms of making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so
>> that developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.
>>
>> Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and
>> perhaps you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project 
>> and
>> even extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have 
>> not
>> contributed back !
>>
>>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>
>
>> Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried
>> to improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found
>> out some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some 
>> patience
>> and please listen to them, nothing else
>>
>> You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
>> something else right now.
>>
>> Again you cannot decide for the community let community first
>> discuss and come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from
>> the likes of you does not go well with the community
>>
>> I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss
>> improvement in Fineract CN at this thread
>>
>> BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that
>> it's good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the 
>> work
>> is going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that 
>> .
>>
>> Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Saransh,
>>>
>>> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do
>>> development on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget 
>>> for
>>> developing Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as
>>> individuals not companies.
>>>
>>> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you
>>> have to manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation
>>> and define their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they 
>>> have
>>> to fix issues which the community wants and needs.
>>>
>>> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
>>> earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

I understand Awasum , but this thread is a survey about the Fineract CN
improvement and nothing else.  Myrle lets treat this as a survey so that we
can learn from the past.

Please help me close this issue FINC-352

Thanks


On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:46 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> Hey, I have opened an JIRA link with suggestion from Ronal
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-352
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:35 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>
>> My point was that people who contributed in the past have identified
>> issues which when solved will make Fineract CN easy to develop. Here is
>> one: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>>
>> We should be focused on removing those blockers and still using the
>> current Language (Java), Framework (Spring) and DBs until we get version
>> one.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:57 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You see that;s what i mean the services consume a lot of memory because
>>> you know and I know why? Right
>>>
>>> Anyway let's work together to pave a path, I am just trying to
>>> incentivise people here who can maybe help.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:22 PM Awasum Yannick 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
 wrote:

> Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
> contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
> thing, let's keep it that way.
>
> I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think
> we are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms
> of making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
> developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.
>
> Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and
> perhaps you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and
> even extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have 
> not
> contributed back !
>
>
 https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25


> Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried
> to improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found
> out some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some 
> patience
> and please listen to them, nothing else
>
> You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
> something else right now.
>
> Again you cannot decide for the community let community first
> discuss and come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from
> the likes of you does not go well with the community
>
> I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss
> improvement in Fineract CN at this thread
>
> BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's
> good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is
> going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .
>
> Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Saransh,
>>
>> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do
>> development on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget 
>> for
>> developing Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as
>> individuals not companies.
>>
>> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have
>> to manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and
>> define their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have 
>> to
>> fix issues which the community wants and needs.
>>
>> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
>> earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or 
>> Fineract
>> CN, then fork the project and call it a different name and take the
>> discussion to another forum and leave the majority of people here who
>> believe in Fineract CN to stay on. You can even create your own new 
>> Apache
>> Project if that is what you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide 
>> you.
>>
>> The community at this time does not want to change the language,
>> framework or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test,
>> improve and release what is already available.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in
>>> any kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a 
>>> typical
>>> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help 
>>> developers
>>> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to 
>>> influence

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Hey, I have opened an JIRA link with suggestion from Ronal
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-352



On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:35 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:

> My point was that people who contributed in the past have identified
> issues which when solved will make Fineract CN easy to develop. Here is
> one: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>
> We should be focused on removing those blockers and still using the
> current Language (Java), Framework (Spring) and DBs until we get version
> one.
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:57 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> You see that;s what i mean the services consume a lot of memory because
>> you know and I know why? Right
>>
>> Anyway let's work together to pave a path, I am just trying to
>> incentivise people here who can maybe help.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:22 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
 contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
 thing, let's keep it that way.

 I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think
 we are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms
 of making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
 developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.

 Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and
 perhaps you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and
 even extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have not
 contributed back !


>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>>>
>>>
 Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried to
 improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found out
 some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some patience and
 please listen to them, nothing else

 You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
 something else right now.

 Again you cannot decide for the community let community first
 discuss and come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from
 the likes of you does not go well with the community

 I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss improvement
 in Fineract CN at this thread

 BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's
 good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is
 going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .

 Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion


 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick 
 wrote:

> Hi Saransh,
>
> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do
> development on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for
> developing Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as
> individuals not companies.
>
> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have
> to manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and
> define their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to
> fix issues which the community wants and needs.
>
> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
> earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or 
> Fineract
> CN, then fork the project and call it a different name and take the
> discussion to another forum and leave the majority of people here who
> believe in Fineract CN to stay on. You can even create your own new Apache
> Project if that is what you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.
>
> The community at this time does not want to change the language,
> framework or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test,
> improve and release what is already available.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in
>> any kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a 
>> typical
>> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
>> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to 
>> influence
>> anyone in any way.
>>
>> Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such
>> transactions by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is 
>> already
>> flawed in many ways.
>>
>> I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I
>> highlighted why the point is no longer valid.
>>
>> Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot
>> manage or use  ,  

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Awasum Yannick]

My point was that people who contributed in the past have identified issues
which when solved will make Fineract CN easy to develop. Here is one:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25

We should be focused on removing those blockers and still using the current
Language (Java), Framework (Spring) and DBs until we get version one.

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:57 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> You see that;s what i mean the services consume a lot of memory because
> you know and I know why? Right
>
> Anyway let's work together to pave a path, I am just trying to incentivise
> people here who can maybe help.
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:22 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
>>> contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
>>> thing, let's keep it that way.
>>>
>>> I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think
>>> we are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms
>>> of making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
>>> developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.
>>>
>>> Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and
>>> perhaps you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and
>>> even extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have not
>>> contributed back !
>>>
>>>
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>>
>>
>>> Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried to
>>> improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found out
>>> some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some patience and
>>> please listen to them, nothing else
>>>
>>> You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
>>> something else right now.
>>>
>>> Again you cannot decide for the community let community first
>>> discuss and come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from
>>> the likes of you does not go well with the community
>>>
>>> I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss improvement
>>> in Fineract CN at this thread
>>>
>>> BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's
>>> good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is
>>> going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .
>>>
>>> Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Saransh,

 The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development
 on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
 Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
 companies.

 If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have
 to manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and
 define their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to
 fix issues which the community wants and needs.

 If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
 earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract
 CN, then fork the project and call it a different name and take the
 discussion to another forum and leave the majority of people here who
 believe in Fineract CN to stay on. You can even create your own new Apache
 Project if that is what you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.

 The community at this time does not want to change the language,
 framework or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test,
 improve and release what is already available.



 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
 wrote:

> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in
> any kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a 
> typical
> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to 
> influence
> anyone in any way.
>
> Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such
> transactions by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is 
> already
> flawed in many ways.
>
> I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I
> highlighted why the point is no longer valid.
>
> Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot
> manage or use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:
>
>> So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok , understood we can 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

You see that;s what i mean the services consume a lot of memory because you
know and I know why? Right

Anyway let's work together to pave a path, I am just trying to incentivise
people here who can maybe help.

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:22 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
>> contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
>> thing, let's keep it that way.
>>
>> I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think we
>> are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms of
>> making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
>> developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.
>>
>> Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and
>> perhaps you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and
>> even extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have not
>> contributed back !
>>
>>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25
>
>
>> Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried to
>> improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found out
>> some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some patience and
>> please listen to them, nothing else
>>
>> You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
>> something else right now.
>>
>> Again you cannot decide for the community let community first discuss and
>> come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from the likes of
>> you does not go well with the community
>>
>> I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss improvement
>> in Fineract CN at this thread
>>
>> BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's
>> good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is
>> going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .
>>
>> Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Saransh,
>>>
>>> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development
>>> on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
>>> Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
>>> companies.
>>>
>>> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have to
>>> manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and define
>>> their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to fix
>>> issues which the community wants and needs.
>>>
>>> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
>>> earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract
>>> CN, then fork the project and call it a different name and take the
>>> discussion to another forum and leave the majority of people here who
>>> believe in Fineract CN to stay on. You can even create your own new Apache
>>> Project if that is what you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.
>>>
>>> The community at this time does not want to change the language,
>>> framework or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test,
>>> improve and release what is already available.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in any
 kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a typical
 business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
 and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to influence
 anyone in any way.

 Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such
 transactions by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is already
 flawed in many ways.

 I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I
 highlighted why the point is no longer valid.

 Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot manage
 or use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.



 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:

> So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling,
>> but if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not 
>> actual
>> development, think that's a lot ?
>>
>
> Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
> relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
> management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
> intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software 
> architecture
> I can believe in, or 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Hey Myrle,

Following the fineract CN architecture we can take the fineract-CN-template
and perhaps break that template in pieces and through a step b step wizard
or command line generate the boilerplate.

Like service , api, like test and in fact domain and entity also with
supplied set of auth lib



Now, my suggestion is that what are the libs that you personally think we
can remove? So that the size becomes smaller?

Another thing you can highlight are the essential things that we cannot
remove .

For example, can we definitely move away the crypto lib? There are much
better libs out there that we can include?

Another example is to maybe move provisioner service , I mean don't you
think that services can do these provisioning and declare them as part of
env when in the run time  as like a config?

Identity makes sense , but I would like to ask you if there are other
written libs that are more mature and open source that one might or would
like to use. Why supply an identity service? Is there a license issue in
using other services ?

Service-like rhythm makes sense but don't you think each service could send
a message through some kind of command approach ? Like maybe we could use
commands for that ?

Please help us understand this , this way we can put back and maybe learn a
few things.










On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:05 PM Muellners ApS  wrote:

> This is not going to be acceptable in any country (or company) that is
> subject to GDPR. Blockchain and GDPR are effectively counterparts due to
> the nature of the blockchain in which data is immutable and therefore
> cannot be deleted, which contradicts with the right to be forgotten in
> GDPR.
>
> Please read the below cited European Union's study, dated July 2019
>
>
> https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2019/634445/EPRS_STU(2019)634445_EN.pdf
>
> "The study has concluded that *it can be easier for private and
> permissioned blockchains to comply with these legal requirements as opposed
> to private and permissionless blockchains.* It has, however, also been
> stressed that the *compatibility of these instruments with the Regulation
> can only ever be assessed on a case-by-case basis*. Indeed, blockchains
> are in reality a class of technologies with disparate technical features
> and governance arrangements. This implies that *it is not possible to
> assess the compatibility between 'the blockchain' and EU data protection
> law*. Rather, this study has attempted to map various areas of the GDPR
> to the features generally shared by this class of technologies, and to draw
> attention to how nuances in blockchains' configuration may affect their
> ability to comply with related legal requirements. Indeed, the key takeaway
> from this study should be *that it is impossible to state that
> blockchains are, as a whole, either completely compliant or incompliant
> with the GDPR. Rather, while numerous important points of tension have been
> highlighted and ultimately each concrete use case needs to be examined on
> the basis of a detailed case-by-case analysis.**"*
>
> "The second key element highlighted in this study is that whereas *there
> certainly is a certain tension between many key features of blockchain
> technologies setup and some elements of European data protection law*, *many
> of the related uncertainties should not only be traced back to the specific
> features of DLT.* *Rather, examining this technology through the lens of
> the GDPR also highlights significant conceptual uncertainties in relation
> to the Regulation that are of a relevance that significantly exceeds the
> specific blockchain context*. Indeed, the analysis has highlighted that
> the lack of legal certainty pertaining to numerous concepts of the GDPR
> makes it hard to determine how the latter should apply to this technology,
> but also others. This is, for instance, *the case regarding the concept
> of anonymous data, the definition of the data controller, and the meaning
> of 'erasure' under Article 17 GDPR.* *A further clarification of these
> concepts would be important to create more legal certainty for those
> wishing to use DLT, but also beyond and thus also to strengthen the
> European data economy through increased legal certainty*."
>
> "It is on the basis of these observations that the study has formulated
> three broad policy recommendations, which have been broken down into
> various elements. First, it was suggested that
>
> 1. regulatory guidance on the interpretation of certain elements of the
> GDPR when applied to blockchains should be provided to generate more legal
> certainty in this area.
>
> 2. Second, it was recommended that codes of conduct and certification
> mechanisms should be encouraged and supported.
>
> 3. Third, it was recommended that funding be made available for
> interdisciplinary research exploring how blockchains' technical design and
> governance solutions could be adapted to the GDPR's requirements, and
> 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Awasum Yannick]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:42 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
> contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
> thing, let's keep it that way.
>
> I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think we
> are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms of
> making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
> developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.
>
> Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and perhaps
> you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and even
> extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have not
> contributed back !
>
>
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FINCN-25


> Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried to
> improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found out
> some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some patience and
> please listen to them, nothing else
>
> You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
> something else right now.
>
> Again you cannot decide for the community let community first discuss and
> come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from the likes of
> you does not go well with the community
>
> I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss improvement in
> Fineract CN at this thread
>
> BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's
> good to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is
> going back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .
>
> Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>
>> Hi Saransh,
>>
>> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development
>> on the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
>> Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
>> companies.
>>
>> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have to
>> manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and define
>> their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to fix
>> issues which the community wants and needs.
>>
>> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my
>> earlier email then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract
>> CN, then fork the project and call it a different name and take the
>> discussion to another forum and leave the majority of people here who
>> believe in Fineract CN to stay on. You can even create your own new Apache
>> Project if that is what you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.
>>
>> The community at this time does not want to change the language,
>> framework or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test,
>> improve and release what is already available.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in any
>>> kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a typical
>>> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
>>> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to influence
>>> anyone in any way.
>>>
>>> Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such
>>> transactions by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is already
>>> flawed in many ways.
>>>
>>> I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I
>>> highlighted why the point is no longer valid.
>>>
>>> Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot manage
>>> or use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:
>>>
 So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.

 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
 wrote:

> Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling,
> but if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not actual
> development, think that's a lot ?
>

 Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
 relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
 management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
 intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software architecture
 I can believe in, or (equally valid) build a business that I can own.  You
 are trying to replace that intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation
 of $1500 and  blockchain.  (Which, given the way you dismissed
 Sander, you clearly don't understand either.)  I shouldn't need to tell you
 that that is... unlikely to lead to your own success.  The people here have
 earned more dignity than that.

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Hey Awasum , I am just trying to incentivise the developers and
contributors here. I know that committers are not paid. That's a good
thing, let's keep it that way.

I am not hiring a developer plus we are on a different thread, I think we
are just discussing the idea of how we can improve the project in terms of
making the libs small and introducing some form of automation so that
developers can go ahead and develop and maybe a release is possible.

Have you ever tried running the fineract CN ? Go ahead and run and perhaps
you will know how hard and cumbersome it is to run the project and even
extend also at the same time Some might have done it but they have not
contributed back !

Now tell me since last 2 years did anyone out of the volunteer tried to
improve or upgrade the source code ? We tried at some level and found out
some issues coming up so we are here reporting them, have some patience and
please listen to them, nothing else

You have highlighted valid tasks no doubt but again we are discussing
something else right now.

Again you cannot decide for the community let community first discuss and
come to a resolve then we can say but sending such mails from the likes of
you does not go well with the community

I request all that we are trying to communicate and discuss improvement in
Fineract CN at this thread

BTW check Micahel email from last year, he clearly mentioned that it's good
to incentivise the developers and contributors after all the work is going
back. He also gave a boilerplate in his email on how to do that .

Patience my friend ,Again dont jump on conclusion


On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:56 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:

> Hi Saransh,
>
> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development on
> the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
> Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
> companies.
>
> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have to
> manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and define
> their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to fix
> issues which the community wants and needs.
>
> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my earlier email
> then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract CN, then fork
> the project and call it a different name and take the discussion to another
> forum and leave the majority of people here who believe in Fineract CN to
> stay on. You can even create your own new Apache Project if that is what
> you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.
>
> The community at this time does not want to change the language, framework
> or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test, improve and
> release what is already available.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in any
>> kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a typical
>> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
>> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to influence
>> anyone in any way.
>>
>> Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such
>> transactions by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is already
>> flawed in many ways.
>>
>> I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I highlighted
>> why the point is no longer valid.
>>
>> Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot manage
>> or use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:
>>
>>> So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling,
 but if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not actual
 development, think that's a lot ?

>>>
>>> Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
>>> relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
>>> management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
>>> intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software architecture
>>> I can believe in, or (equally valid) build a business that I can own.  You
>>> are trying to replace that intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation
>>> of $1500 and  blockchain.  (Which, given the way you dismissed
>>> Sander, you clearly don't understand either.)  I shouldn't need to tell you
>>> that that is... unlikely to lead to your own success.  The people here have
>>> earned more dignity than that.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Myrle
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>> Saransh Sharma
>> Research Partner
>>
>> This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
>> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Muellners ApS]

This is not going to be acceptable in any country (or company) that is
subject to GDPR. Blockchain and GDPR are effectively counterparts due to
the nature of the blockchain in which data is immutable and therefore
cannot be deleted, which contradicts with the right to be forgotten in
GDPR.

Please read the below cited European Union's study, dated July 2019

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2019/634445/EPRS_STU(2019)634445_EN.pdf

"The study has concluded that *it can be easier for private and
permissioned blockchains to comply with these legal requirements as opposed
to private and permissionless blockchains.* It has, however, also been
stressed that the *compatibility of these instruments with the Regulation
can only ever be assessed on a case-by-case basis*. Indeed, blockchains are
in reality a class of technologies with disparate technical features and
governance arrangements. This implies that *it is not possible to assess
the compatibility between 'the blockchain' and EU data protection law*.
Rather, this study has attempted to map various areas of the GDPR to the
features generally shared by this class of technologies, and to draw
attention to how nuances in blockchains' configuration may affect their
ability to comply with related legal requirements. Indeed, the key takeaway
from this study should be *that it is impossible to state that blockchains
are, as a whole, either completely compliant or incompliant with the GDPR.
Rather, while numerous important points of tension have been highlighted
and ultimately each concrete use case needs to be examined on the basis of
a detailed case-by-case analysis.**"*

"The second key element highlighted in this study is that whereas *there
certainly is a certain tension between many key features of blockchain
technologies setup and some elements of European data protection law*, *many
of the related uncertainties should not only be traced back to the specific
features of DLT.* *Rather, examining this technology through the lens of
the GDPR also highlights significant conceptual uncertainties in relation
to the Regulation that are of a relevance that significantly exceeds the
specific blockchain context*. Indeed, the analysis has highlighted that the
lack of legal certainty pertaining to numerous concepts of the GDPR makes
it hard to determine how the latter should apply to this technology, but
also others. This is, for instance, *the case regarding the concept of
anonymous data, the definition of the data controller, and the meaning of
'erasure' under Article 17 GDPR.* *A further clarification of these
concepts would be important to create more legal certainty for those
wishing to use DLT, but also beyond and thus also to strengthen the
European data economy through increased legal certainty*."

"It is on the basis of these observations that the study has formulated
three broad policy recommendations, which have been broken down into
various elements. First, it was suggested that

1. regulatory guidance on the interpretation of certain elements of the
GDPR when applied to blockchains should be provided to generate more legal
certainty in this area.

2. Second, it was recommended that codes of conduct and certification
mechanisms should be encouraged and supported.

3. Third, it was recommended that funding be made available for
interdisciplinary research exploring how blockchains' technical design and
governance solutions could be adapted to the GDPR's requirements, and
whether protocols that are compliant by design may be possible."

Blockchain as a means to achieve GDPR objectives!

Further, The EU's central bank had also invited suggestions on Central Bank
Digital Currencies (last year), announcing an effort, set for a 3
year program right now, including other global efforts like that of the
Reserve Bank of India and China's Central Bank's effort.

Read more about EU's effort here:
https://www.eublockchainforum.eu/sites/default/files/reports/CBDC%20Report%20Final.pdf
Why have we not been able to make progress with releasing Apache Fineract
CN? Why? That should be a question on our minds.
Awasum, thanks for putting effort on this thread. That's a good
question indeed, I love your spirit. CN is not being abandoned!

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 5:26 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:

> Hi Saransh,
>
> The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development on
> the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
> Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
> companies.
>
> If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have to
> manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and define
> their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to fix
> issues which the community wants and needs.
>
> If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my earlier email
> then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract CN, 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Awasum Yannick]

Hi Saransh,

The Fineract PMC or Committers do not pay anyone here to do development on
the Fineract codebase. The PMC does not manage a budget for developing
Fineract. We are all volunteers here and contribute as individuals not
companies.

If you want to hire a Developer to do work on Fineract, then you have to
manage that outside of Fineract. Hire someone at your foundation and define
their role and get them to fix issues if you like. But they have to fix
issues which the community wants and needs.

If you want to do any of the tasks which I highlighted in my earlier email
then go ahead. If you want to rewrite Fineract CN or Fineract CN, then fork
the project and call it a different name and take the discussion to another
forum and leave the majority of people here who believe in Fineract CN to
stay on. You can even create your own new Apache Project if that is what
you want.. Apache Incubator is there to guide you.

The community at this time does not want to change the language, framework
or architecture of Fineract CN at this time. We want to test, improve and
release what is already available.



On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 4:13 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in any
> kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a typical
> business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
> and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to influence
> anyone in any way.
>
> Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such transactions
> by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is already flawed in
> many ways.
>
> I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I highlighted
> why the point is no longer valid.
>
> Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot manage or
> use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:
>
>> So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling, but
>>> if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not actual
>>> development, think that's a lot ?
>>>
>>
>> Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
>> relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
>> management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
>> intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software architecture
>> I can believe in, or (equally valid) build a business that I can own.  You
>> are trying to replace that intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation
>> of $1500 and  blockchain.  (Which, given the way you dismissed
>> Sander, you clearly don't understand either.)  I shouldn't need to tell you
>> that that is... unlikely to lead to your own success.  The people here have
>> earned more dignity than that.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Myrle
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Saransh Sharma
> Research Partner
>
> This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents
> may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
> the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any
> attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents
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> to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.
>

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

I don't know what this email means. I am not asking you to enter in any
kind of business with me? It's a grant Myrle, I mean it's not a typical
business transaction.  Grant from a non profit that could help developers
and contributors to work together nothing else ,I am not going to influence
anyone in any way.

Actually zero trust protocol aka Blockchain does help in such transactions
by the way , the idea that we need to trust someone is already flawed in
many ways.

I neve dismissed Sander; he raised an interesting point but I highlighted
why the point is no longer valid.

Banking the unbanked by also a solution that the unbanked cannot manage or
use  ,  that is what we are trying to solve.



On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:46 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:

> So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling, but
>> if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not actual
>> development, think that's a lot ?
>>
>
> Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
> relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
> management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
> intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software architecture
> I can believe in, or (equally valid) build a business that I can own.  You
> are trying to replace that intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation
> of $1500 and  blockchain.  (Which, given the way you dismissed
> Sander, you clearly don't understand either.)  I shouldn't need to tell you
> that that is... unlikely to lead to your own success.  The people here have
> earned more dignity than that.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
>


-- 
Thanks and regards,

Saransh Sharma
Research Partner

This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may
contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any
attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents
of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly
prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be
monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure
compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails
are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be
intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed
to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Myrle Krantz]

So much wrong here, I'm just gonna skip to the end.

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 3:09 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> Ok , understood we can put more fire power once we get this rolling, but
> if you look at the work I asked was to develop the Proposal not actual
> development, think that's a lot ?
>

Saransh, I do not trust you, and won't be entering into a business
relationship with you already for that reason.  But even if I did, your
management approach here is completely wrong: you are trying to replace
intrinsic motivation to bank the unbanked, or build a software architecture
I can believe in, or (equally valid) build a business that I can own.  You
are trying to replace that intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation
of $1500 and  blockchain.  (Which, given the way you dismissed
Sander, you clearly don't understand either.)  I shouldn't need to tell you
that that is... unlikely to lead to your own success.  The people here have
earned more dignity than that.

Best Regards,
Myrle

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 5:06 PM Myrle Krantz  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:23 AM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 2:54 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Saransh,
>>>
>>> Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:
>>>
>>> 1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
>>>  a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and
>>> needs testing) .
>>>  b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
>>> version but we can do that later.
>>>  c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12.
>>> How much effort do you think will be required for all these?
>>>
>>
>> Honestly manually upgrading 40 repos is a daunting task don't you think?
>>
>>
>> 2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the
>>> community will have a demo environment for playing around and learning
>>> about the new system.
>>> 3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will
>>> help us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area.
>>> Others will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and
>>> many others.
>>> 4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
>>> Infrastructure.
>>> 5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
>>> whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
>>> in that direction
>>>
>> I think this is where we have to put a lot of time artifacts are binded
>> in single language, if we say that we stick to certain codebase always then
>> it make sense are we sticking to such choice then we are always binded to
>> such methods , now choice is do we want to move away from this?
>>
>
> So you would suggest moving from keeping up to date in one set of
> languages and frameworks to keeping up to date in 40 languages and
> frameworks?  Interesting approach.
>
I am actually suggesting it to reduce the libs and the design patterns that
it has followed and something that could work for everyone, That's true
micro service

I am in favour of maintaining a set of boilerplates that can be
maintained and could be replicated to use for any use cases through a set
of blueprints and generators. That's true microservices, like any
integrator could develop in its own languages and connect with system (Here
connecting with system is different)

That way apache Fineract CN has core to maintain rather those special
features and functions, (Not against the functional features) but if
community member wants to code in JS or .NEt they should be able to do that
instantly so we should provide that but definitely we cannot do that in the
start we can start to stick with Java only no problem but , I am suggesting
that automation here Myrle that's all to maintain all of those components.

think like a generator that can generate a template with all the services
and lib and supplied marketplace libs with a core package in any lang in
the future.

>
>
>> 6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
>>> auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
>>> .
>>>
>>> Why dont we add these also ::
>> Why dont we retire some services from FineractCN and perhaps these
>> services could be
>> 1. Auth service instead use PKI and Public Key based AUTH that are
>> already in use. or let people use whatever auth they like ?
>>
>
> While I do think we should be replacing Identity with something externally
> maintained, it's not going to be a simple swap out.  The entire permissions
> system bases around identity and anubis.  The changes would be easier to
> make once the framework and library updates are completed.
>
>
>> 2. Retire provisioner,  and its supported libs that are like anubis
>> If we retire some services and make the product light weight then we have
>> a chance to quickly upgrade the project.
>>
>
> Anubis is more than just provisioning.
>
I mean how can we make the product light weight (Myrle you see we are in
the same loop like the question you posed above? Who will maintain those
libs ?)

>
>
>>
>> This is going to be controversial:: Maybe we retire the DB support since
>> sticking with one single DB could be problematic in the design patterns of
>> the Microservices. (I know a lot will say what will happen to Multi-tenancy
>> and migration)
>> I think we could use a different kind of DB that just stores on log level
>> and has inbuilt encryption like a blockchain DB ?
>>
>
> You've misunderstood the Fineract CN architecture here.  It can use a
> single DB or it can use multiple DBs.  You also seem to have misunderstood
> what the relationship is between microservice architecture and DBs.
>
Actually, I used the wrong term here ,I mean to say what if we replace
command system with a protocol level system like Blockchain that stores the
commands and thus services could communicate , like what happens is that
when system typically gets larger 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

Hey S

Thanks for your thoughts , I would like to start with defining this.

Public chains are immutable , that means we cannot delete once recorded
that’s true but blockchain dB such as Bitcoin be EtH does not need to store
any structured data that is revealed to public , instead it stored the
ownership transfer but in cryptographic method so GDPR laws don’t apply
since data is arbitrary

Public chains are different in nature and may come to use later in
different use cases but they are not subject to GDPR laws since you are not
storing any data there so it does not matter. It's just a value transfer.

Now private chains are like any other database with that you can imagine of
but it’s inherently running on principle of encryption and its contains all
public chain feature like immutability peer to peer communication and
definitely if you end up storing some dB object like loan on your own
private chain you end up coming under GDPR laws that is true but as I said
private chains can be used for different use cases.

One design pattern is to store all kind of commands that are happening over
the system across all services and design they with a encrypted script and
treat it like a single source of truth that has happened in the
microservices , these services can communicate to understand the state of
the system by just communicating with the DB and over this DB the services
can request to delegate rights over other kind of DB

I mean since the design pattern says that each service mapped to its own DB
so why limit to one single DB

Use of blockchain is different here. We should not store anything related
to Loan or anything specific for maintaining the accounts, and can be used
to execute smart contracts that's all and can act as a single layer for
other services to communicate and share commands plus it can act as a
secure rule engine.

Banks are already experimenting with blockchain

On Monday, September 27, 2021, Sander van der Heyden <
sandervanderhey...@musonisystem.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> While not being active on Fineract CN I do have a few thoughts to chip in
> on the proposal to use a blockchain DB: This is not going to be acceptable
> in any country (or company) that is subjec to GDPR. Blockchain and GDPR are
> effectively counterparts due to the nature of the blockchain in which data
> is immutable and therefore cannot be deleted, which contradicts with the
> right to be forgotten in GDPR.
>
> We already see that more and more countries outside EU start implementing
> similar concepts and where we frequently get questions around this topic,
> this might not come in with smaller MFI's but regulated banks (and their
> regulators) are clearly paying attention to this topics. Therefore I would
> strongly advise to be very cautious in jumping onto these types of
> developments without fully understanding whether it would not rule out the
> project for substantial parts of the world.
>
> S
>
>
> On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 08:23, Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 2:54 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Saransh,
>>>
>>> Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:
>>>
>>> 1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
>>>  a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and
>>> needs testing) .
>>>  b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
>>> version but we can do that later.
>>>  c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12.
>>> How much effort do you think will be required for all these?
>>>
>>
>> Honestly manually upgrading 40 repos is a daunting task don't you think?
>>
>>
>> 2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the
>>> community will have a demo environment for playing around and learning
>>> about the new system.
>>> 3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will
>>> help us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area.
>>> Others will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and
>>> many others.
>>> 4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
>>> Infrastructure.
>>> 5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
>>> whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
>>> in that direction
>>>
>> I think this is where we have to put a lot of time artifacts are binded
>> in single language, if we say that we stick to certain codebase always then
>> it make sense are we sticking to such choice then we are always binded to
>> such methods , now choice is do we want to move away from this?
>>
>>> 6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
>>> auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
>>> .
>>>
>>> Why dont we add these also ::
>> Why dont we retire some services from FineractCN and perhaps these
>> services could be
>> 1. Auth service instead use PKI and Public Key based AUTH that are
>> 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Myrle Krantz]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:23 AM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 2:54 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>
>> Hi Saransh,
>>
>> Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:
>>
>> 1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
>>  a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and needs
>> testing) .
>>  b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
>> version but we can do that later.
>>  c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12.
>> How much effort do you think will be required for all these?
>>
>
> Honestly manually upgrading 40 repos is a daunting task don't you think?
>
>
> 2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the community
>> will have a demo environment for playing around and learning about the new
>> system.
>> 3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will
>> help us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area.
>> Others will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and
>> many others.
>> 4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
>> Infrastructure.
>> 5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
>> whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
>> in that direction
>>
> I think this is where we have to put a lot of time artifacts are binded in
> single language, if we say that we stick to certain codebase always then it
> make sense are we sticking to such choice then we are always binded to such
> methods , now choice is do we want to move away from this?
>

So you would suggest moving from keeping up to date in one set of languages
and frameworks to keeping up to date in 40 languages and frameworks?
Interesting approach.


> 6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
>> auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
>> .
>>
>> Why dont we add these also ::
> Why dont we retire some services from FineractCN and perhaps these
> services could be
> 1. Auth service instead use PKI and Public Key based AUTH that are already
> in use. or let people use whatever auth they like ?
>

While I do think we should be replacing Identity with something externally
maintained, it's not going to be a simple swap out.  The entire permissions
system bases around identity and anubis.  The changes would be easier to
make once the framework and library updates are completed.


> 2. Retire provisioner,  and its supported libs that are like anubis
> If we retire some services and make the product light weight then we have
> a chance to quickly upgrade the project.
>

Anubis is more than just provisioning.


>
> This is going to be controversial:: Maybe we retire the DB support since
> sticking with one single DB could be problematic in the design patterns of
> the Microservices. (I know a lot will say what will happen to Multi-tenancy
> and migration)
> I think we could use a different kind of DB that just stores on log level
> and has inbuilt encryption like a blockchain DB ?
>

You've misunderstood the Fineract CN architecture here.  It can use a
single DB or it can use multiple DBs.  You also seem to have misunderstood
what the relationship is between microservice architecture and DBs.


>
> There are so many things to do on Fineract CN. These are some of the most
>> important things which this community needs. We can start drawing up a road
>> map for these things and begin working on them.
>> As a community, we have not been able to achieve even a fraction of these
>> important goals over the past few years since the initial importation of
>> code into Apache Infra. Some powerful and forward thinking Orgs have hard
>> forked Fineract CN and are making progress and it has been successful for
>> them. This shows Fineract CN can work. Let's not abandon it, let's make it
>> better and even do an initial release of Apache Fineract CN before we start
>> talking about doing other things. We can build whatever blockchain or smart
>> contract solutions on top of the fundamental release. If we cannot do the
>> above as a community then we won't be able to do whatever you or
>> anyone else will propose.
>>
>> Why have we not been able to make progress with releasing Apache Fineract
>> CN? Why? That should be a question on our minds.
>>
>> Then once we have that then we can ask the community to roll features on
> top in their language by the support of generators in their lang choice and
> support
>

If you don't know how to code and don't intend to participate in the
coding, what does "ask the community to..." look like for you in a
community of volunteers.

Frankly the architecture you propose has so little in common with Fineract
CN that it looks like a start over to me.  If you want to do that, go
ahead.  No reason why not.  But why insist then on calling it Fineract CN?

>
> Hey, Ronald and Awasum , this superset 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Sander van der Heyden]

Hi,

While not being active on Fineract CN I do have a few thoughts to chip in
on the proposal to use a blockchain DB: This is not going to be acceptable
in any country (or company) that is subjec to GDPR. Blockchain and GDPR are
effectively counterparts due to the nature of the blockchain in which data
is immutable and therefore cannot be deleted, which contradicts with the
right to be forgotten in GDPR.

We already see that more and more countries outside EU start implementing
similar concepts and where we frequently get questions around this topic,
this might not come in with smaller MFI's but regulated banks (and their
regulators) are clearly paying attention to this topics. Therefore I would
strongly advise to be very cautious in jumping onto these types of
developments without fully understanding whether it would not rule out the
project for substantial parts of the world.

S


On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 08:23, Saransh Sharma  wrote:

>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 2:54 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:
>
>> Hi Saransh,
>>
>> Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:
>>
>> 1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
>>  a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and needs
>> testing) .
>>  b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
>> version but we can do that later.
>>  c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12.
>> How much effort do you think will be required for all these?
>>
>
> Honestly manually upgrading 40 repos is a daunting task don't you think?
>
>
> 2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the community
>> will have a demo environment for playing around and learning about the new
>> system.
>> 3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will
>> help us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area.
>> Others will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and
>> many others.
>> 4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
>> Infrastructure.
>> 5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
>> whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
>> in that direction
>>
> I think this is where we have to put a lot of time artifacts are binded in
> single language, if we say that we stick to certain codebase always then it
> make sense are we sticking to such choice then we are always binded to such
> methods , now choice is do we want to move away from this?
>
>> 6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
>> auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
>> .
>>
>> Why dont we add these also ::
> Why dont we retire some services from FineractCN and perhaps these
> services could be
> 1. Auth service instead use PKI and Public Key based AUTH that are already
> in use. or let people use whatever auth they like ?
> 2. Retire provisioner,  and its supported libs that are like anubis
> If we retire some services and make the product light weight then we have
> a chance to quickly upgrade the project.
>
> This is going to be controversial:: Maybe we retire the DB support since
> sticking with one single DB could be problematic in the design patterns of
> the Microservices. (I know a lot will say what will happen to Multi-tenancy
> and migration)
> I think we could use a different kind of DB that just stores on log level
> and has inbuilt encryption like a blockchain DB ?
>
> There are so many things to do on Fineract CN. These are some of the most
>> important things which this community needs. We can start drawing up a road
>> map for these things and begin working on them.
>> As a community, we have not been able to achieve even a fraction of these
>> important goals over the past few years since the initial importation of
>> code into Apache Infra. Some powerful and forward thinking Orgs have hard
>> forked Fineract CN and are making progress and it has been successful for
>> them. This shows Fineract CN can work. Let's not abandon it, let's make it
>> better and even do an initial release of Apache Fineract CN before we start
>> talking about doing other things. We can build whatever blockchain or smart
>> contract solutions on top of the fundamental release. If we cannot do the
>> above as a community then we won't be able to do whatever you or
>> anyone else will propose.
>>
>> Why have we not been able to make progress with releasing Apache Fineract
>> CN? Why? That should be a question on our minds.
>>
>> Then once we have that then we can ask the community to roll features on
> top in their language by the support of generators in their lang choice and
> support
>
> Hey, Ronald and Awasum , this superset sounds good , let's do that. Here I
> am able to grant and support another 1500 USD to support this kind of
> development.
>
> Let me know if you guys wish to work together and make this a project
> workable 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 2:54 PM Awasum Yannick  wrote:

> Hi Saransh,
>
> Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:
>
> 1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
>  a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and needs
> testing) .
>  b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
> version but we can do that later.
>  c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12.
> How much effort do you think will be required for all these?
>

Honestly manually upgrading 40 repos is a daunting task don't you think?


2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the community
> will have a demo environment for playing around and learning about the new
> system.
> 3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will
> help us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area.
> Others will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and
> many others.
> 4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
> Infrastructure.
> 5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
> whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
> in that direction
>
I think this is where we have to put a lot of time artifacts are binded in
single language, if we say that we stick to certain codebase always then it
make sense are we sticking to such choice then we are always binded to such
methods , now choice is do we want to move away from this?

> 6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
> auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
> .
>
> Why dont we add these also ::
Why dont we retire some services from FineractCN and perhaps these services
could be
1. Auth service instead use PKI and Public Key based AUTH that are already
in use. or let people use whatever auth they like ?
2. Retire provisioner,  and its supported libs that are like anubis
If we retire some services and make the product light weight then we have a
chance to quickly upgrade the project.

This is going to be controversial:: Maybe we retire the DB support since
sticking with one single DB could be problematic in the design patterns of
the Microservices. (I know a lot will say what will happen to Multi-tenancy
and migration)
I think we could use a different kind of DB that just stores on log level
and has inbuilt encryption like a blockchain DB ?

There are so many things to do on Fineract CN. These are some of the most
> important things which this community needs. We can start drawing up a road
> map for these things and begin working on them.
> As a community, we have not been able to achieve even a fraction of these
> important goals over the past few years since the initial importation of
> code into Apache Infra. Some powerful and forward thinking Orgs have hard
> forked Fineract CN and are making progress and it has been successful for
> them. This shows Fineract CN can work. Let's not abandon it, let's make it
> better and even do an initial release of Apache Fineract CN before we start
> talking about doing other things. We can build whatever blockchain or smart
> contract solutions on top of the fundamental release. If we cannot do the
> above as a community then we won't be able to do whatever you or
> anyone else will propose.
>
> Why have we not been able to make progress with releasing Apache Fineract
> CN? Why? That should be a question on our minds.
>
> Then once we have that then we can ask the community to roll features on
top in their language by the support of generators in their lang choice and
support

Hey, Ronald and Awasum , this superset sounds good , let's do that. Here I
am able to grant and support another 1500 USD to support this kind of
development.

Let me know if you guys wish to work together and make this a project
workable and show it to the community.

Thanks

>
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 4:23 PM Saransh Sharma 
> wrote:
>
>> I hope this email finds you well, since Apache Con is over we can resume
>> discussing the potential ideas and maybe fix some level of community
>> established quorum on those ideas.
>>
>> Last year , we proposed several Architectural (this does not mean that we
>> nuke existing work)changes in Fineract CN. We have learned
>>
>> 1. Make Fineract CN developers ready. (Through the use of tech like
>> generators that allows the  easy bootstrapping)
>> 2. Implementing a consensus layer and script like a rule engine.
>> 3. We should potentially explore ideas down distributed architecture also
>> at the same time.
>> 4. Moving forward on protocol level rather than API
>> 5. Slowly phasing out or contributing on top of Fineract CN. How do we do
>> that ? Like if we change something deep (maybe introducing another library
>> that does most of the work and phase out the non-essential )
>> 6. Using smart contract rather than microsservices
>> 7. Having a 

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[ronald munjoma]

Hi Saransh,

Intro: Ronald Munjoma here, based in Harare, Zimbabwe. I am not a user of
Fineract 1. x or Fineract CN. I am more of a lurker on the forums, learning
and observing how Apache projects are run. Hopefully, I will use Fineract
1. x or Fineract CN in one of my projects.  As for suggesting changes to
the Fineract project, I would like to suggest and probably put it to a vote
that we adopt and follow the Apache Superset Improvement Proposal (SIP)
way: https://github.com/apache/superset/issues/5602


Regards
Ronald

On Sat, 25 Sept 2021 at 17:23, Saransh Sharma  wrote:

> I hope this email finds you well, since Apache Con is over we can resume
> discussing the potential ideas and maybe fix some level of community
> established quorum on those ideas.
>
> Last year , we proposed several Architectural (this does not mean that we
> nuke existing work)changes in Fineract CN. We have learned
>
> 1. Make Fineract CN developers ready. (Through the use of tech like
> generators that allows the  easy bootstrapping)
> 2. Implementing a consensus layer and script like a rule engine.
> 3. We should potentially explore ideas down distributed architecture also
> at the same time.
> 4. Moving forward on protocol level rather than API
> 5. Slowly phasing out or contributing on top of Fineract CN. How do we do
> that ? Like if we change something deep (maybe introducing another library
> that does most of the work and phase out the non-essential )
> 6. Using smart contract rather than microsservices
> 7. Having a single source of truth (something like blockchain that can
> work for consensus and data protection)
>
> I would like to take this task, or probably hire a resource on behalf of a
> non profit foundation that can take this task ahead, collaborate with
> stakeholders and understand what are the ways we can potentially explore.
>
> This is not about code changes or a PR so please avoid sending emails like
> Open a ticket on JIRA (Yes yes we will do that but first let's come to a
> consensus which way we would like to go.)
>
> Please contribute over this thread and probably lets treat this email as
> information gatherer rather then jumping on the conclusion
> --
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Saransh Sharma
> Research Partner
>
> This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents
> may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
> the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any
> attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents
> of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly
> prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be
> monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure
> compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails
> are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be
> intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed
> to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.
>


-- 
Best and Regards
Ronald Munjoma
+263 775 625 283


[image: --]

Ronald Munjoma
[image: https://]about.me/ronaldmunjoma

Re: Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Awasum Yannick]

Hi Saransh,

Right now, the most important things we need to do on Fineract are to:

1.) Upgrade the major project dependencies.
 a.) Upgrade to Spring Boot 2 ( this is already in progress and needs
testing) .
 b.) Upgrade from Java 8 to Java 11 (LTS). Java 17 is another LTS
version but we can do that later.
 c.) Upgrade to a more recent version of Angular, say 10, 11 or 12. How
much effort do you think will be required for all these?
2.) Deploy a Sandbox Environment for Testing Fineract CN. So the community
will have a demo environment for playing around and learning about the new
system.
3.) Figure out how to Release Fineract CN. Myrle, Markus and Mark will help
us when we get here, they have a lot of experiences in that area. Others
will be available to help including Petri, Juhan, Mike, Aleks and many
others.
4.) Write Documentation on how to host Fineract CN on major Cloud
Infrastructure.
5.) Decide on how to host Fineract CN artifacts either using JFrog or
whatever solution is available out there... Juhan already did a lot of work
in that direction
6.) With 5. in place, we can figure out a complete CI/CD environment for
auto deploying to the sandbox environment we defined in 2. above..
.

There are so many things to do on Fineract CN. These are some of the most
important things which this community needs. We can start drawing up a road
map for these things and begin working on them.
As a community, we have not been able to achieve even a fraction of these
important goals over the past few years since the initial importation of
code into Apache Infra. Some powerful and forward thinking Orgs have hard
forked Fineract CN and are making progress and it has been successful for
them. This shows Fineract CN can work. Let's not abandon it, let's make it
better and even do an initial release of Apache Fineract CN before we start
talking about doing other things. We can build whatever blockchain or smart
contract solutions on top of the fundamental release. If we cannot do the
above as a community then we won't be able to do whatever you or
anyone else will propose.

Why have we not been able to make progress with releasing Apache Fineract
CN? Why? That should be a question on our minds.


On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 4:23 PM Saransh Sharma 
wrote:

> I hope this email finds you well, since Apache Con is over we can resume
> discussing the potential ideas and maybe fix some level of community
> established quorum on those ideas.
>
> Last year , we proposed several Architectural (this does not mean that we
> nuke existing work)changes in Fineract CN. We have learned
>
> 1. Make Fineract CN developers ready. (Through the use of tech like
> generators that allows the  easy bootstrapping)
> 2. Implementing a consensus layer and script like a rule engine.
> 3. We should potentially explore ideas down distributed architecture also
> at the same time.
> 4. Moving forward on protocol level rather than API
> 5. Slowly phasing out or contributing on top of Fineract CN. How do we do
> that ? Like if we change something deep (maybe introducing another library
> that does most of the work and phase out the non-essential )
> 6. Using smart contract rather than microsservices
> 7. Having a single source of truth (something like blockchain that can
> work for consensus and data protection)
>
> I would like to take this task, or probably hire a resource on behalf of a
> non profit foundation that can take this task ahead, collaborate with
> stakeholders and understand what are the ways we can potentially explore.
>
> This is not about code changes or a PR so please avoid sending emails like
> Open a ticket on JIRA (Yes yes we will do that but first let's come to a
> consensus which way we would like to go.)
>
> Please contribute over this thread and probably lets treat this email as
> information gatherer rather then jumping on the conclusion
> --
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Saransh Sharma
> Research Partner
>
> This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents
> may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
> the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any
> attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents
> of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly
> prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be
> monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure
> compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails
> are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be
> intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed
> to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.
>

Improving Fineract CN a Community survey

[Saransh Sharma]

I hope this email finds you well, since Apache Con is over we can resume
discussing the potential ideas and maybe fix some level of community
established quorum on those ideas.

Last year , we proposed several Architectural (this does not mean that we
nuke existing work)changes in Fineract CN. We have learned

1. Make Fineract CN developers ready. (Through the use of tech like
generators that allows the  easy bootstrapping)
2. Implementing a consensus layer and script like a rule engine.
3. We should potentially explore ideas down distributed architecture also
at the same time.
4. Moving forward on protocol level rather than API
5. Slowly phasing out or contributing on top of Fineract CN. How do we do
that ? Like if we change something deep (maybe introducing another library
that does most of the work and phase out the non-essential )
6. Using smart contract rather than microsservices
7. Having a single source of truth (something like blockchain that can work
for consensus and data protection)

I would like to take this task, or probably hire a resource on behalf of a
non profit foundation that can take this task ahead, collaborate with
stakeholders and understand what are the ways we can potentially explore.

This is not about code changes or a PR so please avoid sending emails like
Open a ticket on JIRA (Yes yes we will do that but first let's come to a
consensus which way we would like to go.)

Please contribute over this thread and probably lets treat this email as
information gatherer rather then jumping on the conclusion
-- 
Thanks and regards,

Saransh Sharma
Research Partner

This mail is governed by Muellners®  IT policy.
The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may
contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from
disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any
attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents
of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly
prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be
monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure
compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails
are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be
intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed
to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.