Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Cor, Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-07-05 23.28: I want to express my special thanks to Florian, who did a great job in this discussion. In fact a difficult situation, potentially embarrasing, but with a good end. Also I do very much appreciate the attitude and understanding of Maho, Kazuhiro et all in the situation! thanks for the kind words, Cor! I'm glad we had a good discussion and no one was upset. Indeed, it's a "hot topic", but we learn day by day... :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi all, Florian Effenberger wrote (01-07-10 11:49) KAZUHIRO TERADA wrote on 2010-07-01 03.06: No, I'm not discouraged. This is a great opportunity to discuss people in the project. indeed. It's a discussion we should have done earlier before, but I'm glad that we managed it now :-) I want to express my special thanks to Florian, who did a great job in this discussion. In fact a difficult situation, potentially embarrasing, but with a good end. Also I do very much appreciate the attitude and understanding of Maho, Kazuhiro et all in the situation! Best regards, Cor -- >> Your office 2010 software: the new OpenOffice.org << Cor Nouws - ideas/remarks for the community council? - http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Kaz, KAZUHIRO TERADA wrote on 2010-07-02 06.07: Thanks for your treatment. I hope I can attend OOoCon this year, but the moments I'll not be able to leave Japan because of work. I wanna see you one day! would be fantastic! If you attend, let me know, I'll definitely like to give you something as a thank you for your work :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Florian > By any chance, will you attend OOoCon in Budapest? Maybe I at least can > bring a t-shirt and some other nice merchandise for you ;) Thanks for your treatment. I hope I can attend OOoCon this year, but the moments I'll not be able to leave Japan because of work. I wanna see you one day! Best regards KAZ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Kaz, KAZUHIRO TERADA wrote on 2010-07-01 03.06: No, I'm not discouraged. This is a great opportunity to discuss people in the project. indeed. It's a discussion we should have done earlier before, but I'm glad that we managed it now :-) I understood. What we need is to clarify fund issues with specific examples, because new comers like me don't know the rule. Indeed. There's a soon-to-be-published draft of some guidelines. Looking into the latest draft and edits is still on my todo, and I hope to manage that soon. Then we'll post it to the marketing list for discussion, and I hope it makes things much more clear for the future. I confess we had a long delay in working on this, but sometimes things take just longer... I see. Additionally my point is what the OOo project itself internationally is. How each country covers its budget and how we collaborate with each other are very important. This is totally ideal not reality, but as long as OOo exists, we can try to make it real to maximize our ability. We're working on improving things. The funding situation got *much* better the last years, but of course we're far away from e.g. Mozilla, that hires lots of people and can pay for their worktime. I'm OK, and this is not a negative discussion, but again I think OOo project in each country is not isolated. We need to consider how we can collaborate continuously. I am really glad you see it in a positive way! Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Kaz, KAZUHIRO TERADA wrote on 2010-07-01 03.10: An additional comment. I accepted your rejection. thanks a lot. Again, I'm sorry that it just "hit" you, but I'm glad you understand the reasons. By any chance, will you attend OOoCon in Budapest? Maybe I at least can bring a t-shirt and some other nice merchandise for you ;) Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Florian An additional comment. I accepted your rejection. Thank you. KAZ 2010/7/1 KAZUHIRO TERADA : > Hi, Florian > > Thanks for your comment. > >> I hope you are not discouraged because of the discussion that just came up. >> I'm glad you contributed to the project, and I really value your >> contribution, so please don't mistake this discussion as a criticism to your >> work. > > No, I'm not discouraged. This is a great opportunity to discuss people > in the project. > >> I'm all for covering people's expenses, but paying for actual work time is a >> real challenge, and should occur in only real rare cases. > > I understood. What we need is to clarify fund issues with specific > examples, because new comers like me don't know the rule. > >>> Secondly each country is trying to solve many issues specially human >>> resources. Nakata-san is the JA project leader, so he always try to >>> figure the issue out like other project leaders do. This request is >>> not only for me but also other JA project members to motivate and step >>> forward. >> >> Sure, some compensation will be an encouragement and can help in attracting >> more people. But again, I see that this would be an unfair process. What >> about all those other folks who contributed a lot over the past years? >> People who work a few hours per day, every day, every week? We then would >> also have to compensate them. Without engagement at OOoCon, OOoCon would not >> take place. Without engagement in the marketing project, marketing would not >> take place. Etc. Most of the time, it depends on a few people, but even >> those few we cannot pay, it's just not possible. >> >> Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to have a good compensation, but for >> that, our budget is too low, so we should spend it wisely on expenses. > > I see. Additionally my point is what the OOo project itself > internationally is. How each country covers its budget and how we > collaborate with each other are very important. This is totally ideal > not reality, but as long as OOo exists, we can try to make it real to > maximize our ability. > >>> Please don't misunderstand. The reason why I joined in the project is >>> not for money. I love OOo and fully enjoy the benefits of OOo, so I >>> wanna do something for the project. On the other hand systems to >>> motivate project members are needed. How should we do? >>> >>> Sorry, this is just my impression, and I have no specific solution >>> right now. I would love to discuss this issue and have to consider our >>> organization both nationally and internationally. >> >> Again, I'm very sorry that you are the one who did the work, and then >> discussions arose. I really value and respect your engagement, but I hope >> you see where my concerns are, where the problems lie. >> >> Given the community feedback, and the opinion of the budget holders and >> authorizers, I am sorry that we have to reject the request. >> >> I really hope this does not discourage you from future contributions. We >> depend on volunteer work, and we try to use our ressources the best way >> possible. However, in some cases, we might not satisfy everyone. > > I'm OK, and this is not a negative discussion, but again I think OOo > project in each country is not isolated. We need to consider how we > can collaborate continuously. > > Best regards > KAZ > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Florian Thanks for your comment. > I hope you are not discouraged because of the discussion that just came up. > I'm glad you contributed to the project, and I really value your > contribution, so please don't mistake this discussion as a criticism to your > work. No, I'm not discouraged. This is a great opportunity to discuss people in the project. > I'm all for covering people's expenses, but paying for actual work time is a > real challenge, and should occur in only real rare cases. I understood. What we need is to clarify fund issues with specific examples, because new comers like me don't know the rule. >> Secondly each country is trying to solve many issues specially human >> resources. Nakata-san is the JA project leader, so he always try to >> figure the issue out like other project leaders do. This request is >> not only for me but also other JA project members to motivate and step >> forward. > > Sure, some compensation will be an encouragement and can help in attracting > more people. But again, I see that this would be an unfair process. What > about all those other folks who contributed a lot over the past years? > People who work a few hours per day, every day, every week? We then would > also have to compensate them. Without engagement at OOoCon, OOoCon would not > take place. Without engagement in the marketing project, marketing would not > take place. Etc. Most of the time, it depends on a few people, but even > those few we cannot pay, it's just not possible. > > Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to have a good compensation, but for > that, our budget is too low, so we should spend it wisely on expenses. I see. Additionally my point is what the OOo project itself internationally is. How each country covers its budget and how we collaborate with each other are very important. This is totally ideal not reality, but as long as OOo exists, we can try to make it real to maximize our ability. >> Please don't misunderstand. The reason why I joined in the project is >> not for money. I love OOo and fully enjoy the benefits of OOo, so I >> wanna do something for the project. On the other hand systems to >> motivate project members are needed. How should we do? >> >> Sorry, this is just my impression, and I have no specific solution >> right now. I would love to discuss this issue and have to consider our >> organization both nationally and internationally. > > Again, I'm very sorry that you are the one who did the work, and then > discussions arose. I really value and respect your engagement, but I hope > you see where my concerns are, where the problems lie. > > Given the community feedback, and the opinion of the budget holders and > authorizers, I am sorry that we have to reject the request. > > I really hope this does not discourage you from future contributions. We > depend on volunteer work, and we try to use our ressources the best way > possible. However, in some cases, we might not satisfy everyone. I'm OK, and this is not a negative discussion, but again I think OOo project in each country is not isolated. We need to consider how we can collaborate continuously. Best regards KAZ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Kaz, I hope you are not discouraged because of the discussion that just came up. I'm glad you contributed to the project, and I really value your contribution, so please don't mistake this discussion as a criticism to your work. It's great to see things going on and people contributing to the project! KAZUHIRO TERADA wrote on 2010-06-21 13.01: What I did for this work is ... Work Detail : Designing and coding for the JA toppage / Translation and coding for each apps summary Work Time : 6 man-days - about 48 hours This really sounds like a lot of work, so thanks again for your great contribution, that you can be proud of! Firstly the average of quotation (man-day) may depend on each country or individual, but according to your discussion the point is not my quotation. It's a guideline of the bounty or precedences on this project, and whether my work is based on it or not. The guideline should be clarified for all countries and cases. Indeed. It's not about the money itself, but about the guidelines when we spend money. Lots of projects only take place because of a lot of volunteer work. Looking at current OOoCon, I guess Peter has already spent some weeks (!) on OOoCon, voluntarily. If we pay someone for their work time, we need to do it equally, fair and transparent, but we would have so many valid requests, that we cannot fulfill. I'm all for covering people's expenses, but paying for actual work time is a real challenge, and should occur in only real rare cases. I also agree that the amount you receive per hour differs a lot from country to country. I can only take "my" experiences into account, but that might be totally different for other countries. Secondly each country is trying to solve many issues specially human resources. Nakata-san is the JA project leader, so he always try to figure the issue out like other project leaders do. This request is not only for me but also other JA project members to motivate and step forward. Sure, some compensation will be an encouragement and can help in attracting more people. But again, I see that this would be an unfair process. What about all those other folks who contributed a lot over the past years? People who work a few hours per day, every day, every week? We then would also have to compensate them. Without engagement at OOoCon, OOoCon would not take place. Without engagement in the marketing project, marketing would not take place. Etc. Most of the time, it depends on a few people, but even those few we cannot pay, it's just not possible. Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to have a good compensation, but for that, our budget is too low, so we should spend it wisely on expenses. Thirdly how can we collaborate among countries? If each country covers each budget, What is the bounty internationally? Is it only for expenses? DONATION by PayPal is a good choice, and Introducing human resources across the border is a good idea too. I think each country handles that differently. For Germany, we have one German-only nonprofit, same is for France, and I guess for Brazil as well. In addition, there is TeamOpenOffice.org e.V., with the international/global project budget. The national nonprofits are quite free in how to spend their money, as long as they follow some basic rules (they are collecting money in the name of OpenOffice.org, after all). For the project, we have rules that we need to follow. So, if there was a nonprofit in Japan that covered all your costs, I wouldn't object - that's basically a matter of what the local nonprofits do. For the project, we have to see the global scope and be fair and transparent to everyone. Please don't misunderstand. The reason why I joined in the project is not for money. I love OOo and fully enjoy the benefits of OOo, so I wanna do something for the project. On the other hand systems to motivate project members are needed. How should we do? Sorry, this is just my impression, and I have no specific solution right now. I would love to discuss this issue and have to consider our organization both nationally and internationally. Again, I'm very sorry that you are the one who did the work, and then discussions arose. I really value and respect your engagement, but I hope you see where my concerns are, where the problems lie. Given the community feedback, and the opinion of the budget holders and authorizers, I am sorry that we have to reject the request. I really hope this does not discourage you from future contributions. We depend on volunteer work, and we try to use our ressources the best way possible. However, in some cases, we might not satisfy everyone. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-uns
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
From: Alexandro Colorado Subject: Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 23:42:46 -0500 > point on not getting to hang on presedent. I dont see any problem > saying "yes" to JA and later on saying "NO" to some other project. Yes. me too. Everyone can subscribe and post a message and talk. -- Nakata Maho http://accc.riken.jp/maho/ , JA OOO http://ja.openoffice.org/ http://blog.goo.ne.jp/nakatamaho/ ,GPG: http://accc.riken.jp/maho/maho.pgp.txt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hello, All I'm KAZUHIRO TERADA, a supplier of this issue. As Nakata-san mentioned, I just joined in JA marketing project, thus I don't know anything about backgrounds of this issue. If I mention anything unreasonable, I say "forgive me" before doing so. What I did for this work is ... Work Detail : Designing and coding for the JA toppage / Translation and coding for each apps summary Work Time : 6 man-days - about 48 hours Firstly the average of quotation (man-day) may depend on each country or individual, but according to your discussion the point is not my quotation. It's a guideline of the bounty or precedences on this project, and whether my work is based on it or not. The guideline should be clarified for all countries and cases. Secondly each country is trying to solve many issues specially human resources. Nakata-san is the JA project leader, so he always try to figure the issue out like other project leaders do. This request is not only for me but also other JA project members to motivate and step forward. Thirdly how can we collaborate among countries? If each country covers each budget, What is the bounty internationally? Is it only for expenses? DONATION by PayPal is a good choice, and Introducing human resources across the border is a good idea too. Please don't misunderstand. The reason why I joined in the project is not for money. I love OOo and fully enjoy the benefits of OOo, so I wanna do something for the project. On the other hand systems to motivate project members are needed. How should we do? Sorry, this is just my impression, and I have no specific solution right now. I would love to discuss this issue and have to consider our organization both nationally and internationally. Regards KAZ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
У нед, 20. 06 2010. у 23:42 -0500, Alexandro Colorado пише: > We are not such worried if in the past it was done or not. Which is my > point on not getting to hang on presedent. The big difference comparing to Internship and other programs is that there is a defined process agreed on by the Community Council. With the Documentation Bounty or Internship there is a public announcement and application selection process. Public announcement creates media attention and could motivate people to join the community even if they are not applying for the program. Candidates in the Internship have to write a detail project proposal and do a small programming task before they can be accepted to the program. They are not random Twitter followers. All these programs are planed in advance, run and decided involving appropriate project groups inside the OpenOffice.org project. We have an active d...@website.openoffice.org mailing list where website development is discussed and there is this marketing list. When deciding on this, another comparison should be made. In the Documentation Bounty program there is a task described as 3 weeks of work worth 100eur. If you look at elance.com or others you will be amazed how much web development work you can get for cheap money. Not to mention that it could be that we already do have volunteers inside Website or NLC project who would like to help if asked. Kind regards, Goran Rakic - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote: > On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:34 AM, Ian wrote: >> On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 01:19 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: >> >>> >>> Starting to pay individual work is a real danger we should be careful of. >> >> Agreed but... >> >>> Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla >>> folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. >> >> The question is why? What is it about Mozilla that is different from >> OOo? >> >>> Sorry for being the bad guy in here, but spending money on work time for >>> volunteers in my opinion puts us at a very big risk. A risk we should >>> not take. >> >> Question is how to define what is volunteer work and what is not. Oracle >> pay people for doing work of the same type that volunteers do. The real >> issue is that Oracle provides the money so they can choose how to spend >> it. It is certainly more difficult for general money under the control >> of team OOo or the CC to be spent on work time without causing problems >> - in fact there are problems on travel expenses because some people get >> them covered and some don't. >> >> One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to >> raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to >> target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from >> Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. >> >>> Let's see what others say. >> >> What I'm saying is that the principle of paying some people and not >> others is already set, the issue is more about the mechanism for payment >> and the priority and methods for raising funds and who controls them >> than it is the principle. >> >> -- >> Ian >> Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications >> A new approach to assessment for learning >> www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 >> >> You have received this email from the following company: The Learning >> Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 >> 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. > > We usually have the same dilema on choosing who should we pay and what > for. Our decision process has to do with how hard is it to get it done > and how bad do we need it, like how much time. > > We also have constant contributors which has done work for us for free > in the past, and we want to do better work. Something like > localizations or extension development. Again our biggest challenge > becomes moving money globally since not every country is paypal > friendly nor has the same transfer restrictions. > > Otherwise we would be able to have more worked managed like that. I > also think that some of these work should be funded to improve the > infrastructure such as actual devices to speed up process. In the past > I mentioned a dedicated VoIP device could work wonders, we at ES > already have more common meetups since we migrated away from Skype > into a dedicated VOIP group. > > -- > Alexandro Colorado > OpenOffice.org Español > http://es.openoffice.org > Anyway the spirtit is we do what we can, when we can, if we get a rain of petitions, we are always in the liberty to say we can't do it. We are not such worried if in the past it was done or not. Which is my point on not getting to hang on presedent. I dont see any problem saying "yes" to JA and later on saying "NO" to some other project. Then again, I kind of agree that we could use this chance to negotiate the budget so is not 1000 dls, but 500 maybe or 300, and in return website-dev could aid Takaeda-san with the design and the development is also splited. -- Alexandro Colorado OpenOffice.org Español http://es.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:34 AM, Ian wrote: > On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 01:19 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: > >> >> Starting to pay individual work is a real danger we should be careful of. > > Agreed but... > >> Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla >> folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. > > The question is why? What is it about Mozilla that is different from > OOo? > >> Sorry for being the bad guy in here, but spending money on work time for >> volunteers in my opinion puts us at a very big risk. A risk we should >> not take. > > Question is how to define what is volunteer work and what is not. Oracle > pay people for doing work of the same type that volunteers do. The real > issue is that Oracle provides the money so they can choose how to spend > it. It is certainly more difficult for general money under the control > of team OOo or the CC to be spent on work time without causing problems > - in fact there are problems on travel expenses because some people get > them covered and some don't. > > One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to > raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to > target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from > Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. > >> Let's see what others say. > > What I'm saying is that the principle of paying some people and not > others is already set, the issue is more about the mechanism for payment > and the priority and methods for raising funds and who controls them > than it is the principle. > > -- > Ian > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications > A new approach to assessment for learning > www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 > > You have received this email from the following company: The Learning > Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 > 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. We usually have the same dilema on choosing who should we pay and what for. Our decision process has to do with how hard is it to get it done and how bad do we need it, like how much time. We also have constant contributors which has done work for us for free in the past, and we want to do better work. Something like localizations or extension development. Again our biggest challenge becomes moving money globally since not every country is paypal friendly nor has the same transfer restrictions. Otherwise we would be able to have more worked managed like that. I also think that some of these work should be funded to improve the infrastructure such as actual devices to speed up process. In the past I mentioned a dedicated VoIP device could work wonders, we at ES already have more common meetups since we migrated away from Skype into a dedicated VOIP group. -- Alexandro Colorado OpenOffice.org Español http://es.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Maho NAKATA wrote: > Hi Florian > >> I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated >> when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a >> volunteer basis. > If it is right, everything can be done by voluntter basis. Since what > Sun Microsystem has been done for OOo. > > It's very difficult to human resources. Finding sponsor for CD-ROM > might be much more easy. > >> Peter is right, we need to be careful to create precedence cases that >> we cannot satisfy. On the other hand, we run many bounties, offering >> money for newcomers (like the Internship Programme or the >> Documentation Bounty), while other long-term contributors are without >> compensation for their work except travel fundings, and are even >> required to cover part of their costs on their own. > > Terada-san is a quite newcomer. I find him on twitter. He has been > suggesting improvements on ja.oo.o, and I asked him to work on ja.oo.o. > > And what's the difference between ja.oo.o top page and for example > Documentation Bounty? > >> I know quite a lot people working on the websites, having improved the >> website several times in their free time, redesigned it twices in the >> DE project, and never received a single cent. When they see that money >> is spent for other projects, this might cause some problems. > > Please do not think "top page" can be maintained by free of charge. > In general, it's difficlut to find volunteers. DE, IT, FR cases are > exception. If it's easy I never ask for funding. > > Anyway, still I argue for that. I looked http://mozilla.jp/ and very > very well organized. I was impressed and suprized to see their pages. > How they get it? Mozilla.jp is a NPO (non profit organization) and > they are funded by Mozilla foundation. I don't think everything should > be funded by OO.o CC, and JA asks for all, every possiblity. My suggestion to the JA community is to have their own Paypal Tip Jar and work on their project priorities from that. Is the best way to work this issues out. ES do the same and we have succesfully accomodate similar issues to this work. Mostly server space, and web development work. However design is also something whe have been open to put money in. On the flip side I think 1,000 EUR is a big too much, I recently payed a very good designer and cost me something like 100 dls for somewhat complex animations in flash for an unrelated job. Maybe I could put you in contact with him. He is very talented as he design for video games with lots of animated characters. > >> That said, I'm still a bit undetermined. Sorry for being so annoying >> here, but can you elaborate a bit on what exactly has been done? The >> amount of 1.000 € sounds quite high to me, so I would love to hear >> what exactly has been done and how much time it took approximately. > For that, I asked terada-san. > > Thanks > Nakata Maho > > From: Florian Effenberger > Subject: Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, > Terada-san > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:11:05 +0200 > >> Hi Maho, >> >> Maho NAKATA wrote on 2010-06-16 04.27: >> >>> I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 >>> Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for >>> http://ja.openoffice.org/ . >>> >>> Following instruction >>> at >>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets, >>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets/Budget_2010 >>> here is the relevant infomation.. >>> >>> * status: it's already committed. >>> * what the expenditure is for top page renewal >>> * where the good/services should be delivered: http://ja.openoffice.org/ >>> * which budget category it falls under: General Marketing >>> * value / currency including taxes: 1000Euro >>> * Supplier name: Terada Kazuhiro >> >> I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated >> when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a >> volunteer basis. >> >> Peter is right, we need to be careful to create precedence cases that >> we cannot satisfy. On the other hand, we run many bounties, offering >> money for newcomers (like the Internship Programme or the >> Documentation Bounty), while other long-term contributors are without >> compensation for their work except travel fundings, and are even >> required to cover part of their costs on their own. >> >> I know quite a lot people worki
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 20:06 +0800, Peter Junge wrote: > > I think Ian's idea is to top-up OOo community budgets with fundings from > the EU. That would indeed be great. I'm not an expert on that but AFAIK > publicly funded projects usually include temporary, sometimes part time, > employment options. Hi Peter, Normally an EU project pays 75% of the employment costs of people in the following categories - Manager, Researcher, Technical, Admin. with a maximum daily rate in each depending on the country. eg in Bulgaria it is 79, 71, 55, 37 Euros in Spain 295, 265, 204, 143 Higher in the UK and Germany. 75% just means that you demonstrate you did 100 days and got paid by the grant for 75 of them. Up to 30% of the project can be subcontracted although in practice its usually a lot less. Subcontracts up to 12000 Euros do not need to be tendered. Typically subcontracts are used for translations, professional consultancy and such like. This is why it is difficult to delegate work from a project to just anyone in the community. You have to say at the application stage who is getting paid for what and how much budget goes to each partner. There is some flexibility though through subcontracting. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 15:47 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote:
> Setting up this, however, requires lots of time and money,
Not really, a foundation was set up by the OpenDocument fellowship in
the US and we did a not for profit company limited by guarantee as a not
for profit here in the UK - cost less than 50 Euros IIRC. Setting up a
charity is a bit more involved but has the advantage that donations can
attract tax relief.
The Charity Commission web site in the UK has a specimen Memorandum and
Articles of Association ('Mems and Arts') which is quite easy to use.
This has different paragraphs to insert depending on the kind of
organisation you want to be. The benefit of using the standard Mems and
Arts is that the Charity Commission will register you more quickly. Even
so, it can take 3 months or so.
At least 2 trustees are required and you have to submit accounts and an
Annual Report, so there is some record keeping to do. Not sure about
Germany but probably it's not too different?
Such an organisation can apply for EU grants in partnership with other
organisations. Or be a partner in a project submitted by others. As an
example, I'm currently running a project for Transfer of Innovation for
the INGOTs. That application resulted in a grant of 275,000 Euros (I
think you know Manfred Reiter who is our external pedagogical adviser
for the project) I have applied for a similar grant for OOo
certification, but we can't have OOo as a partner because there is no
official entity. If there had been I could have given OOo a work package
and a budget. If there was an OOo Foundation that was a legal entity it
could apply for grants (I will help anyone with the application process
- 100 pages of forms to fill in is quite a task in itself, but its not
an impossible one even for an individual especially now I know the
method.) Here are some possible projects:
Develop on-line assessment tools for OOo training
Develop OOo Draw as a multimedia notepad for use with Interactive
Whiteboards and similar technologies in schools
Develop training materials for teachers so they can make best use of
OOo4Kids
Develop vocational training courses on the importance of odf and
transfer them to countries across Europe.
Any of these could be developed into projects with a good chance of
success. In fact small businesses that were OOo friendly across Europe
could collectively make several applications and nominate each other as
partners. OOo foundation would be just one of them.
> and one of
> the problems surely is that we need people to do that.
We need one or two people to set up the foundation, do a bit of research
on EU projects and make contacts with other like-minded people. All the
National Agencies run contact seminars for this purpose and they will
pay about 1.000 Euros per delegate for people to attend these and
preparatory visits. So if say 5 Marcons got together to work on the
project they would get all their travel expenses and subsistence paid by
their National Agencies. If it costs them less than 1.000 Euro to attend
they probably will make a profit ;-)
> When one already
> spends several hours per day on OpenOffice.org, finding more time for
> setting up a foundation is not an easy task.
Work smarter not harder :-). This is why I'm saying putting effort into
things that can generate resources is better than keeping working with
no resources. I'm self-employed since 1993 so everything I do has to be
paid for by finding a source of income, whether it's a grant or income
from sales. It's not a bad discipline to get into ;-)
> In addition, for
> OpenOffice.org the specialty is that most developers are employed by one
> major stakeholder, who also owns the brand and trademark.
>
> This means we need to get the major stakeholder in the boat, otherwise
> things will get real hard. I don't know about the discussions that took
> place on that in the past, but as you see, there are various reasons why
> a foundation isn't an easy task.
I know, it's why I decided in the end to just set up the INGOT project
as a separate issue. It seemed to me that the "officials" were more
likely to be a hindrance than a help. (They didn't understand the
business model apart form anything else, and e-mail is not the best
medium to try and explain such things.) That might not have changed. If
it has, I'm willing to help within the time constraints I have - eg I
have copies of successful applications. I know what to target. But I
don't have a lot of time to do all the detail as I need to also
concentrate on my core strategy as I have people to pay and partners to
look after.
> > Yes but the point is that some people get expenses approved for some
> > things while others will get them turned down. (Rightly so) So in
>
> Is there any request for expense funding that has been denied
> erroneously? I don't recall. If so, please let me know.
No, that is not the point I'm making, I'm just saying that there is
never enough mone
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Ian, Ian wrote on 2010-06-20 13.47: So why has an OOo foundation never been set up? If one had been set up 10 years ago maybe we would have millions of dollars to spend. If started now maybe in 10 years we won't be having the same conversation ;-) But really that is down to the CC as I can't see many individuals having the authority, motivation or resources to do it on their own. the foundation discussion is really quite old, indeed. I always said I'm a strong supporter of an independent foundation. Not because I dislike Sun/Oracle, but because I think it's the best way things can be managed and handled: an independent foundation where all major stakeholders can take part in. At least in my weird dreams. ;-) Setting up this, however, requires lots of time and money, and one of the problems surely is that we need people to do that. When one already spends several hours per day on OpenOffice.org, finding more time for setting up a foundation is not an easy task. In addition, for OpenOffice.org the specialty is that most developers are employed by one major stakeholder, who also owns the brand and trademark. This means we need to get the major stakeholder in the boat, otherwise things will get real hard. I don't know about the discussions that took place on that in the past, but as you see, there are various reasons why a foundation isn't an easy task. Yes but the point is that some people get expenses approved for some things while others will get them turned down. (Rightly so) So in Is there any request for expense funding that has been denied erroneously? I don't recall. If so, please let me know. principle some people get expenses and some people don't and that could be for very similar events. Some people commit their own money - personally I have spent thousands of Euro promoting OOo and I know others that have done so too. It isn't a problem for me, I'm just saying I can join. I'm a student, my monthly income is way lower than to most of the OOo project, and in 2007, I've spent nearly 1.700 € from my private pocket for OpenOffice.org. It's much better these days with the funding options, but basically, joining for a CeBIT trade show for one week means not going out the month to me, because even with funding, being at a trade show for one week costs a lot of money. Especially those who are unemployed or students really have to calculate. But, after all, that's part of our volunteer "job" and our hobby, and it's similar for other volunteer jobs, so there's nothing wrong about it. Of course, looking at other communities can make one jealous when you see their trade show attendance is paid worktime, while you pay yourself -- but again, our communities are different. I'm all for a foundation and more options, but the current situation doesn't have it, so we have to make the best out of our current resources, and be fair to everyone. that in principle decisions are already made about who gets paid expenses and who does not. It's bound to be the case with a finite budget. I think we are doing a fair and transparent process. There need to be certain rules, and I think the reason behind them is obvious to anyone. Again, if there has been any funding request we denied so far, and anyone considers that a mistake, please let me know. I don't think so either, I just wonder why paying expenses selectively is seen as different from paying for time selectively. Because it makes a difference. Paying expenses means covering costs that actually occured, refund people's payments. Paying for time is paying costs that did not occur, but rather merit people's time. And that makes a big difference. As an example: Assume the Japanese website took 20 hours to be created. 1.000 € / 20 hours = 50 € per hour. I can name you dozens of people who spend probably 30-60 hours per month on OpenOffice.org volunteer work. Shall we now give each of them 3.000 € per month? We simply can't. It makes a big difference if you cover costs that actually occured, or pay people for their volunteer worktime. We can pay expenses for travel and lodging for one week of CeBIT. But we can't pay 6 days of CeBIT attendance per hour. We just don't have that money. The CC does pay some people to go to some shows, but not everyone for any show requested (and rightly so). Decisions are made about priorities No, it does not. It pays their expenses, not their worktime. So we could do the same with other uses of resources. X is a high priority and a very small resource will make a big difference Y can do it but can't afford to do it without some funding. Z would cost the same in travel expenses for P but will have marginal effect. Therefore better to spend the resource on X. Sure, spending wisely makes sense. But again, the difference for me is if we fund expenses, or if we pay worktime. If we start to pay people per working hours, we actually employ them, and then we are
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Peter Junge wrote on 2010-06-20 14.06: I think Ian's idea is to top-up OOo community budgets with fundings from the EU. That would indeed be great. I'm not an expert on that but AFAIK publicly funded projects usually include temporary, sometimes part time, employment options. I agree to that. Looking into EU options is definitely a good idea we should follow. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Florian, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi Ian, Ian wrote on 2010-06-20 09.34: [...] One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. The difference between us and Oracle is, is that Oracle people are contracted, we are volunteers. Of course, they are paid for similar things we do, but they are contracted, we aren't. If we now start to make differences between the volunteers, this will lead to risks. Believe me, I really would love to compensate people's efforts and work, but with a total budget of 100.000 € per year, we cannot pay the work of dozens of contributors, plus travel, lodging and others. I think Ian's idea is to top-up OOo community budgets with fundings from the EU. That would indeed be great. I'm not an expert on that but AFAIK publicly funded projects usually include temporary, sometimes part time, employment options. Best regards, Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 12:50 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Ian wrote on 2010-06-20 09.34: > > >> Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla > >> folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. > > > > The question is why? What is it about Mozilla that is different from > > OOo? > > the difference is that Mozilla > > 1. has a foundation, and > 2. this foundation has millions of dollars to spend So why has an OOo foundation never been set up? If one had been set up 10 years ago maybe we would have millions of dollars to spend. If started now maybe in 10 years we won't be having the same conversation ;-) But really that is down to the CC as I can't see many individuals having the authority, motivation or resources to do it on their own. > This is somehow different to what we have. Our community budget is > limited, and Oracle is not an OpenOffice.org foundation, but a company. > > The difference is that OpenOffice.org (not Oracle!) has no offices > worldwide, does not employ people. Believe me, the difference is huge, > and things are hardly comparable. I understand the difference, what I don't understand is why in the last 10 years nothing has ever been done about it. (actually I think I do understand it - lack of an enterprise culture and active discouragement from Sun at the time) After all a foundation has been discussed many times in the past. Just nothing ever happens. My own experience is one of having been actively discouraged from entrepreneurial activity which is why I am far less active in the OOo community now than in the past. I'd rather build a business outside the politics and bureaucracy. > At least I don't know about any job offers the OpenOffice.org community > (again, not Oracle, as you compare to Mozilla) has. If I missed that, > and there's a site from an OpenOffice.org foundation offering a job with > a decent team, that would help some marketing folks doing their tasks > all day long with being paid for it, please, let me know, I'd surely be > interested. ;-) I'm sure there isn't which is why I emphasise that Oracle puts money into developing code and some volunteers do it for free. Oracle can choose where it puts its resources in the same way as any individual, just on a bigger scale. Oracle is like one big collective individual in the community in terms of being a community member. We should not expect Oracle to pay volunteers any more than we would expect one volunteer to pay another. > > Question is how to define what is volunteer work and what is not. Oracle > > pay people for doing work of the same type that volunteers do. The real > > issue is that Oracle provides the money so they can choose how to spend > > it. It is certainly more difficult for general money under the control > > of team OOo or the CC to be spent on work time without causing problems > > - in fact there are problems on travel expenses because some people get > > them covered and some don't. > > I'm all for covering (valid) expenses, which is different from paying > for work. One covers expenses, the other pays for work time. Yes but the point is that some people get expenses approved for some things while others will get them turned down. (Rightly so) So in principle some people get expenses and some people don't and that could be for very similar events. Some people commit their own money - personally I have spent thousands of Euro promoting OOo and I know others that have done so too. It isn't a problem for me, I'm just saying that in principle decisions are already made about who gets paid expenses and who does not. It's bound to be the case with a finite budget. > The problem is: When we pay for work time, where to start? Who to pay? I > can name you dozens of people contributing to OpenOffice.org for years, > spending thousands of hours, who are not paid. Why then shall we pay > someone who did a new starting page for one project, and others who > contribute regularly are left behind? See above, I'm not saying it is not a problem or commenting on that particular case, I'm saying in principle it happens already and a better solution is to look at ways of increasing revenue to enable more people to get paid and ways in which funds can be distributed to those doing critically important work that need them. I'd rather focus on getting more resource in and how it can be prioritised than constantly worrying that there is no resource. > If we started to pay people for work time, we need to do it equally, and > for that, we don't have the money. > > > One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to > > raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to > > target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from > > Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. > > The difference between us and Oracle is, is that Oracle people are > contracted, we are volunteers. Oracle
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Cor, Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-06-20 13.13: For the Japanese project it is an unlucky situation that they apparently were not aware of this. one more point to add: If funding can help a local community to strongly grow or start, then there may be exceptions. If we can invest some money and things grow and grow then, this could also be spent wisely. We had some of these exceptions in the past, and most turned out to be a wise choice. But again, this needs to have a compelling reason, that's why I asked Maho for more information. At the moment, I feel that the request should not be handled as such an exception, but let's see... Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Florian, Florian Effenberger wrote (20-06-10 01:19) Let's see what others say. I agree with your practical explanation of and vision on the situation. It is how we work. For the Japanese project it is an unlucky situation that they apparently were not aware of this. Two other issues: a. It is a rule that any request for funding is done before the work starts. b. There seems to be a tendency, that requests for funding are send directly to the list(s). Which is not how it is intended: a request must be sent to the budget owner. Both a and b are written on the wiki: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets This page however is a mixture of information for the council and for community members. So that is something we have to improve. I will make a start with that. Best regards, Cor -- >> Your office 2010 software: the new OpenOffice.org << Cor Nouws - ideas/remarks for the community council? - http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Ian, Ian wrote on 2010-06-20 09.34: Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. The question is why? What is it about Mozilla that is different from OOo? the difference is that Mozilla 1. has a foundation, and 2. this foundation has millions of dollars to spend This is somehow different to what we have. Our community budget is limited, and Oracle is not an OpenOffice.org foundation, but a company. The difference is that OpenOffice.org (not Oracle!) has no offices worldwide, does not employ people. Believe me, the difference is huge, and things are hardly comparable. At least I don't know about any job offers the OpenOffice.org community (again, not Oracle, as you compare to Mozilla) has. If I missed that, and there's a site from an OpenOffice.org foundation offering a job with a decent team, that would help some marketing folks doing their tasks all day long with being paid for it, please, let me know, I'd surely be interested. ;-) Question is how to define what is volunteer work and what is not. Oracle pay people for doing work of the same type that volunteers do. The real issue is that Oracle provides the money so they can choose how to spend it. It is certainly more difficult for general money under the control of team OOo or the CC to be spent on work time without causing problems - in fact there are problems on travel expenses because some people get them covered and some don't. I'm all for covering (valid) expenses, which is different from paying for work. One covers expenses, the other pays for work time. The problem is: When we pay for work time, where to start? Who to pay? I can name you dozens of people contributing to OpenOffice.org for years, spending thousands of hours, who are not paid. Why then shall we pay someone who did a new starting page for one project, and others who contribute regularly are left behind? If we started to pay people for work time, we need to do it equally, and for that, we don't have the money. One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. The difference between us and Oracle is, is that Oracle people are contracted, we are volunteers. Of course, they are paid for similar things we do, but they are contracted, we aren't. If we now start to make differences between the volunteers, this will lead to risks. Believe me, I really would love to compensate people's efforts and work, but with a total budget of 100.000 € per year, we cannot pay the work of dozens of contributors, plus travel, lodging and others. What I'm saying is that the principle of paying some people and not others is already set, the issue is more about the mechanism for payment and the priority and methods for raising funds and who controls them than it is the principle. I think we are not "paying" people at the moment. What we do now is refunding people's expenses, and we try to be fair and transparent in that process. Name me one request we erroneously rejected, and I'll look into it. What we do not do is paying people for their work time. Exceptions are the contests like summer internship and documentation bounty, but to my opinion, this is okay for the reasons I've stated in my last e-mail. Believe me, I was more than happy if we had some donation of a few million dollars, could hire people on behalf of the community, but it's not possible. Therefore, we need to spend our resources and invest our money wisely, and be fair to everyone. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 01:19 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: > > Starting to pay individual work is a real danger we should be careful of. Agreed but... > Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla > folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. The question is why? What is it about Mozilla that is different from OOo? > Sorry for being the bad guy in here, but spending money on work time for > volunteers in my opinion puts us at a very big risk. A risk we should > not take. Question is how to define what is volunteer work and what is not. Oracle pay people for doing work of the same type that volunteers do. The real issue is that Oracle provides the money so they can choose how to spend it. It is certainly more difficult for general money under the control of team OOo or the CC to be spent on work time without causing problems - in fact there are problems on travel expenses because some people get them covered and some don't. One way to pay volunteers for work would be for a group of volunteers to raise money eg through an EU grant or other enterprise and use it to target specific parts of the project. That is really no different from Oracle paying the engineers or Louis. > Let's see what others say. What I'm saying is that the principle of paying some people and not others is already set, the issue is more about the mechanism for payment and the priority and methods for raising funds and who controls them than it is the principle. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, a few more thoughts to sum things up: In general, paying travel, lodging and other costs (expenses) for community members is a good thing, I'm all for it, given certain rules are met. Payment for volunteer work should never occur. It is just too risky, we cannot satisfy everyone's needs and requests. There might be rare exceptions where we should nontheless pay for work time, but these need to have a compelling reason. In many cases, things cannot be done by volunteer work. Then, funding for a commercial company/service provider should be granted. However, these companies are usually not part of the community, so payment is not going to a volunteer. Otherwise, volunteers simply could reject volunteer work, but offer contracted work through their company instead, which is not desirable. Things like the summer intership programme and the documentation bounty are on the one hand bad, because money is given for people's work of one, two or three months, while long-term contributors to OOo are never paid. However, these contests serve more needs: They give lots of attention to the media, and they are usually meant to attract new volunteers. Therefore, I can agree with paying for work time as part of these contests. You see, this is indeed a "hot topic" and we should discuss wisely and sensitive... Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Maho NAKATA wrote on 2010-06-20 00.46: If it is right, everything can be done by voluntter basis. Since what Sun Microsystem has been done for OOo. It's very difficult to human resources. Finding sponsor for CD-ROM might be much more easy. I guess we all have similar issues. When it comes to money, things do not get easy. In general, I am for covering expenses people had, like travel expenses and lodging, but I am *against* paying community volunteers for their time. This is not the basis for our community, we are volunteers, not paid ones. I see many of us invest lots of time, and I know it by myself. I spend several hours per day (!) with OpenOffice.org volunteering, I even have to invest my own private student money to make it going, and so do many other volunteers I know. All these people do important jobs, and if they would not, several important areas of the project simply would not work anymore: No user support, no press releases, no software release, no OOoCon organization and so on. Terada-san is a quite newcomer. I find him on twitter. He has been suggesting improvements on ja.oo.o, and I asked him to work on ja.oo.o. And what's the difference between ja.oo.o top page and for example Documentation Bounty? I see that it's not easy to put projects like the documentation bounty or the internship programme into our existing structures. We definitely have many people who are regular contributors to the project, doing lots of work, much more than students do in three months in the internship programme, I guess, but never received a single cent. And we shouldn't start paying people for their work, otherwise we will get into real problems soon. Who to pay? How much? Who not? My general rule would be to *never* pay for community volunteer work. Things like the internship programme and documentation bounty are extraordinary contests, they catch attention, so funding for them is okay. However, if we start paying people for their time and work, be prepared that we have lots of contributors immediately stopping to work, saying they want money. And what then? Starting to pay individual work is a real danger we should be careful of. Please do not think "top page" can be maintained by free of charge. In general, it's difficlut to find volunteers. DE, IT, FR cases are exception. If it's easy I never ask for funding. While generally the projects you've mentioned might be more lucky than others in finding volunteers, please don't think we have more resources than others. Our website is done by two, three people. Our press release is written by one (me). There are always the same people attending the release status meetings, and always the same people doing QA and localization. It's only a handful of them, not more. If just a few of these people would stop working immediately, we would be -- sorry for the harsh word -- fucked. And then, would we go on and pay them? We can't afford this. Anyway, still I argue for that. I looked http://mozilla.jp/ and very very well organized. I was impressed and suprized to see their pages. How they get it? Mozilla.jp is a NPO (non profit organization) and they are funded by Mozilla foundation. I don't think everything should be funded by OO.o CC, and JA asks for all, every possiblity. Mozilla is quite hard to compare with us. I know many of the Mozilla folks, and they are in a much more luxury situation than we are. If we hired a few leads and gave everyone of them a big travel budget and a few employees, imagine how fast we would be with redesigning, marketing and lots of other things. However, Mozilla makes far more money than our nonprofit organizations do, so we are not in a situation where we can pay for individual work. We should use our resources the best way possible. Sorry for being the bad guy in here, but spending money on worktime for volunteers in my opinion puts us at a very big risk. A risk we should not take. That said, I'm still a bit undetermined. Sorry for being so annoying here, but can you elaborate a bit on what exactly has been done? The amount of 1.000 € sounds quite high to me, so I would love to hear what exactly has been done and how much time it took approximately. For that, I asked terada-san. I'd be interested to know that. Just for a comparison: For a sum of 1.000 € an average student in Germany has to work between 2-3 months with a total of probably 60 hours. For many of us, this is a *lot* of money. Again, sorry for being maybe the bad guy in here. OOo has a budget, and we should spend it wisely on things. However, when we pay people for their individual contributions, we cannot simpy pick up one and ignore the others, that would be unfair. This will lead to problems and I've already received complaints offlist by people asking why they have been working for years already, and others get fundings. I'm open up other opinions and look forward to discussion. I real
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Florian > I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated > when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a > volunteer basis. If it is right, everything can be done by voluntter basis. Since what Sun Microsystem has been done for OOo. It's very difficult to human resources. Finding sponsor for CD-ROM might be much more easy. > Peter is right, we need to be careful to create precedence cases that > we cannot satisfy. On the other hand, we run many bounties, offering > money for newcomers (like the Internship Programme or the > Documentation Bounty), while other long-term contributors are without > compensation for their work except travel fundings, and are even > required to cover part of their costs on their own. Terada-san is a quite newcomer. I find him on twitter. He has been suggesting improvements on ja.oo.o, and I asked him to work on ja.oo.o. And what's the difference between ja.oo.o top page and for example Documentation Bounty? > I know quite a lot people working on the websites, having improved the > website several times in their free time, redesigned it twices in the > DE project, and never received a single cent. When they see that money > is spent for other projects, this might cause some problems. Please do not think "top page" can be maintained by free of charge. In general, it's difficlut to find volunteers. DE, IT, FR cases are exception. If it's easy I never ask for funding. Anyway, still I argue for that. I looked http://mozilla.jp/ and very very well organized. I was impressed and suprized to see their pages. How they get it? Mozilla.jp is a NPO (non profit organization) and they are funded by Mozilla foundation. I don't think everything should be funded by OO.o CC, and JA asks for all, every possiblity. > That said, I'm still a bit undetermined. Sorry for being so annoying > here, but can you elaborate a bit on what exactly has been done? The > amount of 1.000 € sounds quite high to me, so I would love to hear > what exactly has been done and how much time it took approximately. For that, I asked terada-san. Thanks Nakata Maho From: Florian Effenberger Subject: Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:11:05 +0200 > Hi Maho, > > Maho NAKATA wrote on 2010-06-16 04.27: > >> I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 >> Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for >> http://ja.openoffice.org/ . >> >> Following instruction >> at >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets, >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets/Budget_2010 >> here is the relevant infomation.. >> >> * status: it's already committed. >> * what the expenditure is for top page renewal >> * where the good/services should be delivered: http://ja.openoffice.org/ >> * which budget category it falls under: General Marketing >> * value / currency including taxes: 1000Euro >> * Supplier name: Terada Kazuhiro > > I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated > when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a > volunteer basis. > > Peter is right, we need to be careful to create precedence cases that > we cannot satisfy. On the other hand, we run many bounties, offering > money for newcomers (like the Internship Programme or the > Documentation Bounty), while other long-term contributors are without > compensation for their work except travel fundings, and are even > required to cover part of their costs on their own. > > I know quite a lot people working on the websites, having improved the > website several times in their free time, redesigned it twices in the > DE project, and never received a single cent. When they see that money > is spent for other projects, this might cause some problems. > > I'm a bit in fear of people requesting more and more money and not > working voluntarily anymore, thus I'm generally sceptical to these > requests. > > On the other hand, I see that for some cases there might be a need. > > That said, I'm still a bit undetermined. Sorry for being so annoying > here, but can you elaborate a bit on what exactly has been done? The > amount of 1.000 € sounds quite high to me, so I would love to hear > what exactly has been done and how much time it took approximately. > > Florian > > -- > Florian Effenberger > OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead > Tel: +49 8341 99660880 > Fax: +49 8341 99660889 > Mobile: +49 151 14424108 > Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff > >
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi, Le 19 juin 2010 à 16:56, Florian Effenberger a écrit : > > Hi Italo, > > Italo Vignoli wrote on 2010-06-19 16.05: >> Sorry, I didn't see the original request. I'm totally against it, as >> this is something that should fall into voluntary work. I think that the >> marketing budget should cover expenses, not time or work. As a budget >> approver, I will vote against it. > > I basically share your feelings. I guess it will be a challenge for the > future to also define clear rules on that. With the summer internship > programme and the documentation bounty project, we in fact do cover time and > work, but I agree that this should be a rare case. Otherwise, I could name 50 > people whose time and work needs to be paid for... +++1 Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On 6/19/10 12:11 , Florian Effenberger wrote: I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a volunteer basis. Sorry, I didn't see the original request. I'm totally against it, as this is something that should fall into voluntary work. I think that the marketing budget should cover expenses, not time or work. As a budget approver, I will vote against it. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com Mobile +39.348.5653829 SIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Italo, Italo Vignoli wrote on 2010-06-19 16.05: Sorry, I didn't see the original request. I'm totally against it, as this is something that should fall into voluntary work. I think that the marketing budget should cover expenses, not time or work. As a budget approver, I will vote against it. I basically share your feelings. I guess it will be a challenge for the future to also define clear rules on that. With the summer internship programme and the documentation bounty project, we in fact do cover time and work, but I agree that this should be a rare case. Otherwise, I could name 50 people whose time and work needs to be paid for... Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Maho, Maho NAKATA wrote on 2010-06-16 04.27: I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for http://ja.openoffice.org/ . Following instruction at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets, http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets/Budget_2010 here is the relevant infomation.. * status: it's already committed. * what the expenditure is for top page renewal * where the good/services should be delivered: http://ja.openoffice.org/ * which budget category it falls under: General Marketing * value / currency including taxes: 1000Euro * Supplier name: Terada Kazuhiro I'm a bit undetermined of this request. It always gets complicated when money is used for work that has been (or can be) done on a volunteer basis. Peter is right, we need to be careful to create precedence cases that we cannot satisfy. On the other hand, we run many bounties, offering money for newcomers (like the Internship Programme or the Documentation Bounty), while other long-term contributors are without compensation for their work except travel fundings, and are even required to cover part of their costs on their own. I know quite a lot people working on the websites, having improved the website several times in their free time, redesigned it twices in the DE project, and never received a single cent. When they see that money is spent for other projects, this might cause some problems. I'm a bit in fear of people requesting more and more money and not working voluntarily anymore, thus I'm generally sceptical to these requests. On the other hand, I see that for some cases there might be a need. That said, I'm still a bit undetermined. Sorry for being so annoying here, but can you elaborate a bit on what exactly has been done? The amount of 1.000 € sounds quite high to me, so I would love to hear what exactly has been done and how much time it took approximately. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Cor, > Independent of how good the page and sympathetic the NLC/contributor > is, I think we need a very good reason to be able to say yes to such a > request. > Maybe that reason is there, then we need to know. Top page is very important for the marketing point of view. For example our statistics shows approximately 30,000hit/day and 1,000,000hit/month. For better presentation, JA project need better, more friendly top page. Sometimes, it is very hard to find volunteers on such kind of works. (our economical situation is bad - under deflation, so people work too hard and focusing on OOo just for free, reducing the cost) Fortunately I found a person, Terada-san, he did a great work. He's not a long term contributor of JA, actually this is the first time. So I'd like to pay as a bounty and motivate him and JA community. Thanks From: Cor Nouws Subject: [marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:55:32 +0200 > Hi all, > > Louis Suarez-Potts wrote (17-06-10 16:42) >> >> On 2010-06-17, at 03:26 , Peter Junge wrote: >> >>> Hi Maho, >>> >>> Maho NAKATA wrote: >>>> Hello, Florian, John, Cor and Italo, (Cc: Terada-san) I'm the >>>> project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 Euro for >>>> Terada-san's top page renewal work for http://ja.openoffice.org/ >>>> . >>> >>> I see one really big issue here. OOo has about 100 sub-domains for >>> language projects, which were all maintained on a volunteer basis >>> so far. If we would now start to subsidize one project, it would >>> create precedence with the consequence, that we have to subsidize >>> every language project, which then means we will need an extra >>> budget of 100,000 Euros for web design. I'm not sure how these >>> funds should be raised. >> >> >> I sort of disagree, as I think the notion of "subsidize" can be >> clarified fruitfully. > > Independent of how good the page and sympathetic the NLC/contributor > is, I think we need a very good reason to be able to say yes to such a > request. > Maybe that reason is there, then we need to know. > >> For instance, I'd like to think about the idea >> of having a "slush" or "reserve" fund that can be usefully deployed >> according to need. > > I agree with that as general approach. > >> Adjudication of such disbursals could be managed >> by the CC, under the guidance of the NLC leads―Charles and me―with >> the CC holding not just a rubber stamp but actual discretionary >> ability, ie, it could say, "no." >> >> An example of what is needed could relate to events that lead to the >> expansion of the productive (contributory) community. It could also >> lead to new and useful localizations. I suggested something like >> this―the protocol, procedures―at the Hamburg F2F meeting last >> February, with the particular instance being the localization of OOo >> to the Botswana language. There is already considerable interest >> there. But funds are needed. The payoff for us (so to speak) is hard >> to gauge, but this is the nature of such scholarship disbursals: one >> is sowing but not necessarily reaping. At least not now. >> >> But later, yes: if Botswana, or Japanese language groups can act >> efficiently with funds donated by us, the OOo Community, then the >> upshot is more contributions, more momentum, more ecosystem >> development. > > There will be some draft for funding approval guidelines soon (..). So > I think that is a good moment to look at details: what can reasonably > be considered useful to fund. > > Regards, > Cor > > -- > >> Your office 2010 software: the new OpenOffice.org << > > Cor Nouws > - ideas/remarks for the community council? > - http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
> > On 2010-06-17, at 10:55 , Cor Nouws wrote: > >> There will be some draft for funding approval guidelines soon (..). So I >> think that is a good moment to look at details: what can reasonably be >> considered useful to fund. > > of course. for anything like this, careful scrutiny and strong argument is > requisite. It might be worth noting that the EU is extending projects to include countries outside Europe and there are specific priorities for languages. It might well be worth seeing if grants are available for translations. We currently have an application for 300,000 Euros to support OOo certification submitted and we will find out the result at the end of July. Even if it is not successful we can simply apply again next year and keep going until it is. Our current project is tangentially beneficial to OOo because it encourages the use of Open Systems and Open Source general productivity tools. If anyone has 10-15 minutes to spare please contribute to our research at http://www.edunetbg.com/limesurvey/index.php?sid=39256&lang=en%20%3E Please copy the link to any lists/networks where you think there might be interest. Thanks. Ian > >> >> Regards, >> Cor > > louis > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On 2010-06-17, at 10:55 , Cor Nouws wrote: > There will be some draft for funding approval guidelines soon (..). So I > think that is a good moment to look at details: what can reasonably be > considered useful to fund. of course. for anything like this, careful scrutiny and strong argument is requisite. > > Regards, > Cor louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi all, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote (17-06-10 16:42) On 2010-06-17, at 03:26 , Peter Junge wrote: Hi Maho, Maho NAKATA wrote: Hello, Florian, John, Cor and Italo, (Cc: Terada-san) I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for http://ja.openoffice.org/ . I see one really big issue here. OOo has about 100 sub-domains for language projects, which were all maintained on a volunteer basis so far. If we would now start to subsidize one project, it would create precedence with the consequence, that we have to subsidize every language project, which then means we will need an extra budget of 100,000 Euros for web design. I'm not sure how these funds should be raised. I sort of disagree, as I think the notion of "subsidize" can be clarified fruitfully. Independent of how good the page and sympathetic the NLC/contributor is, I think we need a very good reason to be able to say yes to such a request. Maybe that reason is there, then we need to know. For instance, I'd like to think about the idea of having a "slush" or "reserve" fund that can be usefully deployed according to need. I agree with that as general approach. Adjudication of such disbursals could be managed by the CC, under the guidance of the NLC leads—Charles and me—with the CC holding not just a rubber stamp but actual discretionary ability, ie, it could say, "no." An example of what is needed could relate to events that lead to the expansion of the productive (contributory) community. It could also lead to new and useful localizations. I suggested something like this—the protocol, procedures—at the Hamburg F2F meeting last February, with the particular instance being the localization of OOo to the Botswana language. There is already considerable interest there. But funds are needed. The payoff for us (so to speak) is hard to gauge, but this is the nature of such scholarship disbursals: one is sowing but not necessarily reaping. At least not now. But later, yes: if Botswana, or Japanese language groups can act efficiently with funds donated by us, the OOo Community, then the upshot is more contributions, more momentum, more ecosystem development. There will be some draft for funding approval guidelines soon (..). So I think that is a good moment to look at details: what can reasonably be considered useful to fund. Regards, Cor -- >> Your office 2010 software: the new OpenOffice.org << Cor Nouws - ideas/remarks for the community council? - http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] Re: [marcon] Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
On 2010-06-17, at 03:26 , Peter Junge wrote: > Hi Maho, > > Maho NAKATA wrote: >> Hello, Florian, John, Cor and Italo, >> (Cc: Terada-san) >> I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 >> Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for http://ja.openoffice.org/ . > > I see one really big issue here. OOo has about 100 sub-domains for language > projects, which were all maintained on a volunteer basis so far. If we would > now start to subsidize one project, it would create precedence with the > consequence, that we have to subsidize every language project, which then > means we will need an extra budget of 100,000 Euros for web design. I'm not > sure how these funds should be raised. I sort of disagree, as I think the notion of "subsidize" can be clarified fruitfully. For instance, I'd like to think about the idea of having a "slush" or "reserve" fund that can be usefully deployed according to need. Adjudication of such disbursals could be managed by the CC, under the guidance of the NLC leads—Charles and me—with the CC holding not just a rubber stamp but actual discretionary ability, ie, it could say, "no." An example of what is needed could relate to events that lead to the expansion of the productive (contributory) community. It could also lead to new and useful localizations. I suggested something like this—the protocol, procedures—at the Hamburg F2F meeting last February, with the particular instance being the localization of OOo to the Botswana language. There is already considerable interest there. But funds are needed. The payoff for us (so to speak) is hard to gauge, but this is the nature of such scholarship disbursals: one is sowing but not necessarily reaping. At least not now. But later, yes: if Botswana, or Japanese language groups can act efficiently with funds donated by us, the OOo Community, then the upshot is more contributions, more momentum, more ecosystem development. > > Best regards, > Peter Best Louis > > > >> Following instruction at >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets, >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets/Budget_2010 >> here is the relevant infomation.. >> * status: it's already committed. >> * what the expenditure is for top page renewal >> * where the good/services should be delivered: http://ja.openoffice.org/ >> * which budget category it falls under: General Marketing >> * value / currency including taxes: 1000Euro >> * Supplier name: Terada Kazuhiro >> Thanks, >> Nakata Maho >> -- Nakata Maho http://accc.riken.jp/maho/ , JA OOO http://ja.openoffice.org/ >> http://blog.goo.ne.jp/nakatamaho/ ,GPG: >> http://accc.riken.jp/maho/maho.pgp.txt >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: marcon-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: marcon-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
From: Peter Junge Subject: Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:26:13 +0800 > Hi Maho, > > Maho NAKATA wrote: >> Hello, Florian, John, Cor and Italo, >> (Cc: Terada-san) >> I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 >> Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for >> http://ja.openoffice.org/ . > > I see one really big issue here. OOo has about 100 sub-domains for > language projects, which were all maintained on a volunteer basis so > far. If we would now start to subsidize one project, it would create > precedence with the consequence, that we have to subsidize every > language project, which then means we will need an extra budget of > 100,000 Euros for web design. I'm not sure how these funds should be > raised. Hi Peter, thanks for your comment. I don't think we should raise the funds. Once it's done, its ok for many years. Or for the next time, if our project becomes rich (in resources) then other sponsor may pay for that. And, please think in a different way. There are 100NLs (may not exact). How many are actively maintaining their the top pages? Do you know for example, how many release candidates are marked as "released"? http://blog.livedoor.jp/maho_nakata/archives/51348609.html apparently far from 100. I'm believe funding really motivate, encourage, other NLs as well. Of course, if some NL has many resources, then they should do by themselves. But in our case, resource is really thin. Chances are equal to everyone. I guess such concern may also applies for other activities related NLs. Thanks -- Nakata Maho http://accc.riken.jp/maho/ , JA OOO http://ja.openoffice.org/ http://blog.goo.ne.jp/nakatamaho/ ,GPG: http://accc.riken.jp/maho/maho.pgp.txt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Fund request for top page renewal at ja.oo.o, Terada-san
Hi Maho, Maho NAKATA wrote: Hello, Florian, John, Cor and Italo, (Cc: Terada-san) I'm the project lead of ja.oo.o, and I'd like to request 1000 Euro for Terada-san's top page renewal work for http://ja.openoffice.org/ . I see one really big issue here. OOo has about 100 sub-domains for language projects, which were all maintained on a volunteer basis so far. If we would now start to subsidize one project, it would create precedence with the consequence, that we have to subsidize every language project, which then means we will need an extra budget of 100,000 Euros for web design. I'm not sure how these funds should be raised. Best regards, Peter Following instruction at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets, http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Funding_And_Budgets/Budget_2010 here is the relevant infomation.. * status: it's already committed. * what the expenditure is for top page renewal * where the good/services should be delivered: http://ja.openoffice.org/ * which budget category it falls under: General Marketing * value / currency including taxes: 1000Euro * Supplier name: Terada Kazuhiro Thanks, Nakata Maho -- Nakata Maho http://accc.riken.jp/maho/ , JA OOO http://ja.openoffice.org/ http://blog.goo.ne.jp/nakatamaho/ ,GPG: http://accc.riken.jp/maho/maho.pgp.txt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
