Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC - assert() sanity checks

[Suraj N. Kurapati]

On Sun 30 Oct 2011 08:53:48 AM PDT, Martin Kopta wrote:
> 4) Should be the code made smaller by witty constructions or do you 
> prefer boring and obvious constructions (which are generaly longer)?

Following this train of thought, what does the suckless community have
to say about sanity checks via ?  Do you abhor them or deem
them unnecessary?  Count them in the SLOC metric or just ignore them?

I ask because I have added an assert() sanity check to my DWM patch,
thereby adding 2 SLOC; but I feel much safer with the assert in place:

https://github.com/sunaku/.dwm/commit/bc43059d4f0c9f87b4a3c43c7a4bc65e1598217f

What do you think?

-- 
From listening comes wisdom and from speaking repentance.


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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

> I just want to be fair to the small crowd of remaining wmii users to
> have a smooth relocation. Everything will be accomplished until mid of
> December.

Thanks. Not many of us depend on the web site anyway, but new users
should have the freedom to find it.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 4 November 2011 12:24, hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Anselm is scared to piss of the "community" so he needs everyone to
> agree with his rules and ideas beforehand. Typical social behaviorism
> I guess.

I just want to be fair to the small crowd of remaining wmii users to
have a smooth relocation. Everything will be accomplished until mid of
December.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 4 November 2011 11:50, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:
> On 4 November 2011 09:40, markus schnalke  wrote:
>> Someone already pointed it out. It actually were suckless projects
>> that did intentionally not care about the meaning of version numbers.
>
> I agree. I don't even see why we don't just drop the first dot and
> have dwm-60, dmenu-45.

I explained this already. I want to keep this version scheme just for
the sake of conservatism. We don't need to change the versioning
scheme every two years like others (I did it before dwm times quite
often). But once a versioning scheme is in place, we stick to it.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 4 November 2011 10:40, markus schnalke  wrote:
> [2011-10-31 10:11] Anselm R Garbe 
>> On 31 October 2011 10:01, Martin Kopta  wrote:
>> > Are there any explicit rules which project must follow in order to be part
>> > of suckless? What is the line in here?
>>
>> I'm working on such guidelines. The main aspects are:
>
> I wonder why we actually do need such guidelines. We don't have masses
> of projects to filter. We can simply continue including what we (i.e.

The guidelines I outlined are not meant to be strong rules. There were
just an email attempt to describe some of the motives of suckless.org
from my perspective.

HTH,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

Anselm is scared to piss of the "community" so he needs everyone to
agree with his rules and ideas beforehand. Typical social behaviorism
I guess.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Yoshi Rokuko]

+--- markus schnalke ---+
> I wonder why we actually do need such guidelines. We don't have masses
> of projects to filter. We can simply continue including what we (i.e.
> eventually Anselm) consider worthwhile and remove what we consider not
> suiting. That makes everything easier and also we keep our flexibility.
> (As we agree that wmii should go, just remove it. Its fans had long
> enough time to move the contents.)
> 
> Generally, I think, that one success factor in the (early) development
> of dwm had been that Anselm just did what he thought was good for
> himself. This can be done similarly for suckless.org. Anselm has
> shown that he goes for rough consensus.
> 
> Instead of adding manifests, we better have real content and let that
> speak.

sounds good, but don't forget, that usually it helps people to get their
ideals straight by formulating them - lets say manifest not guidelines.

what the community defines as suckless is not completely reflected in
what you name content. i think that there are to few suckless projects
for that.

<...> 
> > Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one
> > year.
> 
> Rules, rules, rules ...
<...>
> I suggest to drop the idea of having such a set of rules. We have the
> expression of our code and we have a common sense within the suckless
> community. What else is the Unix philosophy?

i agree with your suggestion.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 4 November 2011 09:40, markus schnalke  wrote:
> Someone already pointed it out. It actually were suckless projects
> that did intentionally not care about the meaning of version numbers.

I agree. I don't even see why we don't just drop the first dot and
have dwm-60, dmenu-45.

> And about quality: Who of us mainly cares about quality? We care about
> hackable code! That's important.

I do. As always, it's about trade-offs. I try to make my software as
high a quality as possible without sacrificing too much clarity.
Besides, the ultimate hackable code is an empty file.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[markus schnalke]

[2011-10-31 10:11] Anselm R Garbe 
> On 31 October 2011 10:01, Martin Kopta  wrote:
> > Are there any explicit rules which project must follow in order to be part
> > of suckless? What is the line in here?
> 
> I'm working on such guidelines. The main aspects are:

I wonder why we actually do need such guidelines. We don't have masses
of projects to filter. We can simply continue including what we (i.e.
eventually Anselm) consider worthwhile and remove what we consider not
suiting. That makes everthing easier and also we keep our flexibility.
(As we agree that wmii should go, just remove it. Its fans had long
enough time to move the contents.)

Generally, I think, that one success factor in the (early) development
of dwm had been that Anselm just did what he thought was good for
himself. This can be done similarily for suckless.org. Anselm has
shown that he goes for rough consensus.

Instead of adding manifests, we better have real content and let that
speak.



> 1. Relevance/Elitism: the project must be relevant in the context of
> suckless.org's target audience, it must target expert
> users/developers/administrators and _not_ typical end users.

Why? Are there too many projects in which only few people are
interested?

> 3. Quality: the project must aim to be a quality finished product once
> exceeding the 1.0 version number and be maintained afterwards.

Someone already pointed it out. It actually were suckless projects
that did intentionally not care about the meaning of version numbers.

And about quality: Who of us mainly cares about quality? We care about
hackable code! That's important.

> Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one
> year.

Rules, rules, rules ...

> 5. Exclusivity: the project must be unique, i.e. it should not solve a
> problem that is solved by another suckless.org project.

Why not?


I suggest to drop the idea of having such a set of rules. We have the
expression of our code and we have a common sense within the suckless
community. What else is the Unix philosophy?


meillo

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

On 11/3/11, Andrew Hills  wrote:
> Nothing you do to a web standard will ever keep a designer from using an
> image to display text content except disallowing the transfer of images.
>
However poetic your statement, disabling embedding of images will
suffice.  was probably the first great anti-feature proposed by a
commercial browser vendor, implemented by the same vendor and used by
authors before the committee got to standardizing a better
alternative.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Andrew Hills]

Nothing you do to a web standard will ever keep a designer from using an
image to display text content except disallowing the transfer of images.

--Andrew Hills

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Pierre Chapuis]

On 03.11.2011 09:42, Hadrian Węgrzynowski wrote:


We would need something more like Markdown web or gopher... We want
content! Presentation could be only client's issue.
If somebody likes Apple look then every site could look like one.
If one likes plain text look then every site could look like one.


100% agreed. I would say the closest thing to that currently on the
Web is Atom. I could imagine a Web of content where text documents
are written in Markdown and structured data is Atom or something
similar built on JSON.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Hadrian Węgrzynowski]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 18:14:12 +1100
Alex Hutton  wrote:

>It has occured to me that web-servers should be sending the content in
>json format, with the first page load on the site loading a html page
>with the json handler in the head. Then if you didn't like the UI
>provided by the site you could replace it with your own by using your
>own JS and handling the json in your own way.

What's the difference between replacing UI in json using your own JS
and replacing UI in HTML/CSS using your own JS? That's not the point.

We would need something more like Markdown web or gopher... We want
content! Presentation could be only client's issue.
If somebody likes Apple look then every site could look like one.
If one likes plain text look then every site could look like one.

But that's not going to happen if we are facing now Web 2.0 Apps
Cloud Ultra Fancy...

That's 3rd or 4th different topic in this thread.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Alex Hutton]

It has occured to me that web-servers should be sending the content in
json format, with the first page load on the site loading a html page
with the json handler in the head. Then if you didn't like the UI
provided by the site you could replace it with your own by using your
own JS and handling the json in your own way.

On 3 November 2011 08:29, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Bjartur Thorlacius  
> wrote:
>> Or the user agent (aka your browser). Furthermore, this will allow you to
>> customize layout by configuring your user agent. Read: layouts that suck
>> less. HTML tables are completely uncustomizable.
>
> No it won't, because people will continue to use , ,
> and everything else exactly the way they use  now.  Web designers
> are basically graphics people, and they couldn't possibly give less of
> a fuck how the user wants things laid out.  And they never will.
> They'll continue to do user-agent-based dispatch and present
> completely different versions of shit to different clients, in the
> interest of controlling as much of the display as possible, and when
> faced with a client that doesn't want their bullshit, you'll get a
> broken site.  As usual.
>
>
> --
> # Kurt H Maier
>
>

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Bjartur Thorlacius  wrote:
> Or the user agent (aka your browser). Furthermore, this will allow you to
> customize layout by configuring your user agent. Read: layouts that suck
> less. HTML tables are completely uncustomizable.

No it won't, because people will continue to use , ,
and everything else exactly the way they use  now.  Web designers
are basically graphics people, and they couldn't possibly give less of
a fuck how the user wants things laid out.  And they never will.
They'll continue to do user-agent-based dispatch and present
completely different versions of shit to different clients, in the
interest of controlling as much of the display as possible, and when
faced with a client that doesn't want their bullshit, you'll get a
broken site.  As usual.


-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:05:17 -,  wrote:

Print versions, where they exist, are the sanest solution in my
experience. Wikipedia is a nice example. I have a bookmark, which sends
me directly there. Not perfect though, because links point to
non-printable versions of the article. Shame.

In that case you need to include a statement of your preferring  
non-interactive (and generally simple and sane) representations of  
resources in your requests for articles (as an HTTP header). Try sending a  
mail to Wikimedia and the WHATWG or the HTML WG of W3C.


Your requests should something like:
GET /wiki/Ragnarök_(software) HTTP/1.0
Host: en.wikipedia.org
Accept-Language: en
Accept-media: not interactive

Add paged and monochrome per taste. Such proposal would probably be  
answered by blaming Mediawiki's use of omnimedia stylesheets, instead of  
providing a stylesheet for each medium, and lack of semantic markup that  
can be styled by user agents (that don't give a shit how Wikimedia staff  
thinks Wikipedia content should be laid out).

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:14:39 -, Andreas Krennmair   
wrote:
On the contrary, HTML5 goes the way of bringing markup to a more  
abstract, semantic way (with a plethora of new tags such as ,  
 and many more), and for this semantic markup the layout is  
defined purely via CSS.


Or the user agent (aka your browser). Furthermore, this will allow you to  
customize layout by configuring your user agent. Read: layouts that suck  
less. HTML tables are completely uncustomizable.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Stephen Paul Weber]

Somebody claiming to be Kurt H Maier wrote:

web idiots have been spouting such bullshit since the 'graceful
degradation' days of html4.  it's never come true, and it never will,
because the "standards" put forth are anything but.  what you are
talking about is the web version of "the check is in the mail" and
"it's not what it looks like"


While there is great reason to be pessemistic, in the end the situation is 
no different than in any other maker/coder/creator field: the tools to make 
the web really quite good have been there for years, but most people writing 
the pages are not motivated to make them suck less than the average, and so 
keep producing terrible  nests, etc, making all the nice stuff we're 
supposed to have a lot less useful.


--
Stephen Paul Weber, @singpolyma
See  for how I prefer to be contacted
edition right joseph


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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:14 PM,   wrote:
> developing sane web applications is possible for ages. If you put "from
> lynx to full-blown browsers" into the definition of sane (which is
> itself the only sane way) everithing is clear. Most folks don't seem to
> think like that and trade usability and media support for bells and
> whistles.

the fact that such a trade is possible at all is proof of how
backwards and helpless web 'standards' are.

-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* Andreas Krennmair  [2011-11-02 16:59]:
> * Kurt H Maier  [2011-11-02 16:40]:
> And progressive enhancement has already become true. Much
> of the whole HTML5 hype is BS, but it has been shown that it isn't
> too difficult to develop web applications that are functional on a
> vast range of clients, from lynx to smartphones and tablets to
> full-brown browsers.

developing sane web applications is possible for ages. If you put "from
lynx to full-blown browsers" into the definition of sane (which is
itself the only sane way) everithing is clear. Most folks don't seem to
think like that and trade usability and media support for bells and
whistles. 

-- 
 stanio_

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* Bjartur Thorlacius  [2011-11-02 15:55]:
> I used to use mobile version of some websites, but as handheld
> computer bloat up, so do websites. 

Sadly yes. Another problem there is that they try to be smarter than the
client by offering some buttons to hide and show content, rather than
just showing everything. 

Print versions, where they exist, are the sanest solution in my
experience. Wikipedia is a nice example. I have a bookmark, which sends
me directly there. Not perfect though, because links point to
non-printable versions of the article. Shame.

-- 
 stanio_

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> [2011-11-02 13:21]:
> No. I try to use hget+sed+htmlfmt for Offline reading and synchronising,
> [..]
> Searching for solutions...

best compromise I found was w3m which has a decent way to spawn external
"browsers", which I misuse for flash or other evil stuff which I have to
deal with.

For pages which you are familiar with what content to expect where, it
is ok. For those you are not -- you may miss arbitrarily many
information, and that's not fun indeed. 

Luckily, I *am* familiar with the most pages I visit, and they don't
change much. This allows for non-interactive (what I meant by offline
before) browsing: I have shell aliases for scripts for dictionary querys
which cut some pages before and some after the *real* content, and it
works surprisingly well for years with some (e.g. leo.org), but need
quite often changes with others.

My point is, sometimes it is worth having several simple solutions on
page basis. While it is not that elegant, if you use them often, they
save you a lot of headaches.

-- 
 stanio_

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Andreas Krennmair]

* Kurt H Maier  [2011-11-02 16:40]:

web idiots have been spouting such bullshit since the 'graceful
degradation' days of html4.  it's never come true, and it never will,
because the "standards" put forth are anything but.  what you are
talking about is the web version of "the check is in the mail" and
"it's not what it looks like"


I think you are mistaken. Graceful degradation is a different approach. 
And progressive enhancement has already become true. Much of the whole HTML5 
hype is BS, but it has been shown that it isn't too difficult to develop 
web applications that are functional on a vast range of clients, from lynx to 
smartphones and tablets to full-brown browsers.


-Andreas

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Andreas Krennmair  wrote:
> Another core concept that plays into this is "progressive enhancement",
> which states that the basic content can be downloaded and displayed in a
> simple yet readable manner by only presenting the content itself (w/o
> images, CSS, or JS), and that externally linked CSS and unobtrusive
> JavaScript "enhance" a page if they are supported and enabled in the web
> browser, but of course, the page/web application shall work correctly even
> without e.g. JavaScript enabled (or even supported).

web idiots have been spouting such bullshit since the 'graceful
degradation' days of html4.  it's never come true, and it never will,
because the "standards" put forth are anything but.  what you are
talking about is the web version of "the check is in the mail" and
"it's not what it looks like"


-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Andreas Krennmair]

* Bjartur Thorlacius  [2011-11-02 16:00]:

* hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> [2011-11-02 10:11]:
> > I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of
> > websites,
> > since they tend to have considerably less suck on them.
>

I used to use mobile version of some websites, but as handheld
computer bloat up, so do websites. I honestly hope that HTML5 will
finally allow us to drop CSS support. The hope is weak.


On the contrary, HTML5 goes the way of bringing markup to a more abstract, 
semantic way (with a plethora of new tags such as ,  and 
many more), and for this semantic markup the layout is defined purely via CSS.


Another core concept that plays into this is "progressive enhancement", which 
states that the basic content can be downloaded and displayed in a simple yet 
readable manner by only presenting the content itself (w/o images, CSS, or 
JS), and that externally linked CSS and unobtrusive JavaScript "enhance" a 
page if they are supported and enabled in the web browser, but of course, the 
page/web application shall work correctly even without e.g. JavaScript enabled 
(or even supported).


-Andreas

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

> * hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> [2011-11-02 10:11]:
> > > I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of
> > > websites,
> > > since they tend to have considerably less suck on them.
> >
I used to use mobile version of some websites, but as handheld
computer bloat up, so do websites. I honestly hope that HTML5 will
finally allow us to drop CSS support. The hope is weak.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

No. I try to use hget+sed+htmlfmt for Offline reading and synchronising,
but like you said images are no fun in text only formats. So ive also
played around with cleaned html in rss and mails, but stuff just doesnt
feel right.
Searching for solutions...
Am 02.11.2011 10:45 schrieb :

> * hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> [2011-11-02 10:11]:
> > > I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of websites,
> > > since they tend to have considerably less suck on them.
> >
> > I used to do the same thing, also I processed these pages with a few
> > scripts and htmlfmt.
>
> Do you mean, you plug somehow a script in surf (or whatever), before it
> renders the page? How?
>
> Or you process them for offline reading, printing, etc., losing links?
>
> I find myself very often spawn a w3m or lynx when I encounter lengthly
> content worth reading, with one of those 3+ columns layout, without
> print version, which, to make it more ridiculous, are defined with
> static width of left and right columns, so that zooming just makes it
> worse.
>
> This doesn't help when there are meaningful images, e.g. formulas, in
> the text, though.
>
> cheers,
> --
>  stanio_
>
>

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> [2011-11-02 10:11]:
> > I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of websites,
> > since they tend to have considerably less suck on them.
> 
> I used to do the same thing, also I processed these pages with a few
> scripts and htmlfmt.

Do you mean, you plug somehow a script in surf (or whatever), before it
renders the page? How?

Or you process them for offline reading, printing, etc., losing links?

I find myself very often spawn a w3m or lynx when I encounter lengthly
content worth reading, with one of those 3+ columns layout, without
print version, which, to make it more ridiculous, are defined with
static width of left and right columns, so that zooming just makes it
worse.

This doesn't help when there are meaningful images, e.g. formulas, in
the text, though.

cheers,
-- 
 stanio_

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Paul Tan]

cting an other CSS layout. So we are pretty
much left alone with a huge pile of junk in every html file today.

Also -- HTML embedded base64 encoded images every two or three lines
(for the 30 twitter symbols).
Fuck HTML5

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

> I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of websites,
> since they tend to have considerably less suck on them.

I used to do the same thing, also I processed these pages with a few
scripts and htmlfmt. But then these clever web site operators stopped
serving specially cleansed pages and the "print" link is now generally
just a java script selecting an other CSS layout. So we are pretty
much left alone with a huge pile of junk in every html file today.

Also -- HTML embedded base64 encoded images every two or three lines
(for the 30 twitter symbols).
Fuck HTML5

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Troels Henriksen]

Anselm R Garbe  writes:

> On 31 October 2011 12:42, Troels Henriksen  wrote:
>> Anselm R Garbe  writes:
>>
>>> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
>>> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
>>> webkitgtk carries away)
>>
>> I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
>> already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
>> of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
>> ways to make Surf more useful).
>
> Excellent, please send me your SSH key via privmail.

What, no solemn vow to uphold the sacred Suckless principles?  At least
I hope I still get to learn about a secret handshake or something.

-- 
\  Troels
/\ Henriksen

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 31 October 2011 12:42, Troels Henriksen  wrote:
> Anselm R Garbe  writes:
>
>> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
>> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
>> webkitgtk carries away)
>
> I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
> already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
> of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
> ways to make Surf more useful).

Excellent, please send me your SSH key via privmail.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Joerg Zinke]

Hi,

Am 31.10.2011 um 20:44 schrieb Anselm R Garbe :

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 08:39:00PM +0100, Joerg Zinke wrote:
>> 
>> 
> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> webkitgtk carries away)
>> 
>> Shout!
>> 
 I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
 already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
 of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
 ways to make Surf more useful).
>>> 
>>> I second Troels self-nomination.  I use surf all the time.
>> 
>> ACK, same here. No better alternatives.
> 
> Ok surf will stay,

Nice to hear.

> but we need some maintainer who likes to volunteer if Gottox
> really hasn't got the time anymore.

I do not know the rules, but what about Troels Henriksen offer?

Regards,
Joerg

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[ilf]

On 11-01 10:11, Connor Lane Smith wrote:

A problem, though, is that it removes hyperlinks.


I consider this a problem as well.

If there was an option to keep links, I'd happily enable it. Also I'd 
adjust the new CSS (as in: clear it.


I wonder if it would be possible to 'crowdsource' readability so we 
can contribute bits of pages to hide, like on Wikipedia we don't care 
about '[edit]', etc... Not sure how we'd go about that, though.


I once envisioned a Plugin to directly go to "Print Views" of websites, 
since they tend to have considerably less suck on them. I'm pretty 
trained for my standard websites, but still I do: Open Print View, 
disbale CSS, and now trigger SimplyRead.


I think we could automate all that and crowd-source the rules for it.

--
ilf

Über 80 Millionen Deutsche benutzen keine Konsole. Klick dich nicht weg!
-- Eine Initiative des Bundesamtes für Tastaturbenutzung


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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nick]

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 06:20:29PM +0100, pancake wrote:
> >> On 31 October 2011 23:28, Nick  wrote:
> >>> http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote
> >>> which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works
> >>> with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox.
>
> Can you port it to surf and add it to the surf extensions page?

It works fine in surf already. If you download the source
tarball (imagine for a moment that the link wasn't a 404),
and read INSTALL, you'll see that you can do this:

  cat keybind.js simplyread.js >> $HOME/.surf/script.js

You're right, I should add that to the surf wiki. I'll do so
soon.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[pancake]

Can you port it to surf and add it to the surf extensions page?

On 01/11/2011, at 10:44, Nick  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 09:34:21AM +, Connor Lane Smith wrote:
>> On 31 October 2011 23:28, Nick  wrote:
>>> http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote
>>> which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works
>>> with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox.
>> 
>> Thanks! However, your XPI is incompatible with my Firefox (9.0a2) and
>> the source tarball is a 404. :(
> 
> Indeed, I just noticed the source tarball was missing. The joys
> of having little used software is that you can get away with
> such things for a while. I'll fix that tonight.
> 
> As for your futuristic firefox, if you could be so kind,
> could you either:
> - test the current xpi with firefox, using mozilla's addon
>  compatibility extension, to see if it works, or
> - just grab the latest version from git, change
>  em:maxVersion in gecko/install.ttl, and run "make xpi",
>  and test it.
> And let me know that it works (it should, naturally it
> doesn't make use of much of firefox's special sauces).
> 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

I don't like simplyread at all, but drunk as I was I've been playing
around with this http://labs.opera.com/news/2011/10/19/

here's the user stylesheet I'm currently using with it. Great if you
have a large display and don't want to scroll down after every clicked
link.

I also activate the Black on white Contrast stylesheet which comes with opera.

@navigation { nav-up: -o-link-rel(index) }
html{
height: 100%;
overflow: -o-paged-x;
padding: 5%;
box-sizing: border-box;
columns: 25em;
text-align:justify;
}

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

> I wonder if it would be possible to 'crowdsource' readability so we
> can contribute bits of pages to hide, like on Wikipedia we don't care
> about '[edit]', etc... Not sure how we'd go about that, though.

I'd rather pull out all the contents and indexes out of the most
worthy web sites we navigate to every day and synchronise it with my
file system. This would include the use of something like htmlfmt and
something which can navigate with the help of the indexes.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 1 November 2011 09:34, anonymous  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:21:19PM +0100, Connor Lane Smith wrote:
>> ... because it clashes with the developers' CSS. That's the problem. I
>> think there ought to be pure style-free semantic HTML, and then users
>> can style every site to fit their personal needs, without it resulting
>> in ugly.
>
> http://suckless.org/ is not style-free at all.  Navigation is done using
> lists and there are divs with ids "container", "midHeader", "main-copy"
> and classes "left" and "right".  If you disable CSS, all these lists
> can nearly fill entire screen and these divs are usless if you want to
> create your own style.
>
> IMO navigation lines on top should be done without lists like on
> http://cat-v.org/.  Or, much better, navigation can be completely
> removed and replaced with simple links like on http://www.mutt.org/.
>
> Nice guidelines are already present on http://port70.net/webless/

Funny you mention this, actually this was a plan for quite some time
to tidy suckless.org up and to make its web interface clearer. And
nearly all your points will be used in the new design (though werc of
course will remain, but it's default style isn't great either ;))

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nick]

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:11:46AM +, Connor Lane Smith wrote:
> On 1 November 2011 09:44, Nick  wrote:
> > - test the current xpi with firefox, using mozilla's addon
> >  compatibility extension, to see if it works, or
> 
> Done. It seems to work fine.

Cool, thanks, I'll release an updated xpi tomorrow.

> A problem, though, is that it removes hyperlinks.

That's by design, actually. I'd rather read just the thing I
want to read, without thinking "maybe i should go here", and go
follow stuff afterwards. Unlike readability, it's designed
to be toggled, so turn it on, read, turn it off, navigate,
is a nice workflow.

> It's not quite smart enough to render a lot of bad sites
> that readable, but it is an improvement.

Yes. I didn't want to fall down the rabbithole of trying to
make it work with too bad code. This is good enough for most
sites in the real world, and to do better would mean a lot
more code and less maintainability.


> I wonder if it would be possible to 'crowdsource' readability so we
> can contribute bits of pages to hide, like on Wikipedia we don't care
> about '[edit]', etc... Not sure how we'd go about that, though.

I can't imagine such a thing would be worth it, or that
things to hide would be entirely shared between people.
There was a firefox extension that allowed you to select
elements and delete them. One could imagine creating some
croudsourcing element around that. But it doesn't seem to me
like it would actually work well.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 1 November 2011 09:44, Nick  wrote:
> As for your futuristic firefox, if you could be so kind,
> could you either:
> - test the current xpi with firefox, using mozilla's addon
>  compatibility extension, to see if it works, or

Done. It seems to work fine. A problem, though, is that it removes
hyperlinks. It's not quite smart enough to render a lot of bad sites
that readable, but it is an improvement.

I wonder if it would be possible to 'crowdsource' readability so we
can contribute bits of pages to hide, like on Wikipedia we don't care
about '[edit]', etc... Not sure how we'd go about that, though.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nick]

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 09:34:21AM +, Connor Lane Smith wrote:
> On 31 October 2011 23:28, Nick  wrote:
> > http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote
> > which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works
> > with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox.
> 
> Thanks! However, your XPI is incompatible with my Firefox (9.0a2) and
> the source tarball is a 404. :(

Indeed, I just noticed the source tarball was missing. The joys
of having little used software is that you can get away with
such things for a while. I'll fix that tonight.

As for your futuristic firefox, if you could be so kind,
could you either:
- test the current xpi with firefox, using mozilla's addon
  compatibility extension, to see if it works, or
- just grab the latest version from git, change
  em:maxVersion in gecko/install.ttl, and run "make xpi",
  and test it.
And let me know that it works (it should, naturally it
doesn't make use of much of firefox's special sauces).

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 23:28, Nick  wrote:
> http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote
> which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works
> with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox.

Thanks! However, your XPI is incompatible with my Firefox (9.0a2) and
the source tarball is a 404. :(

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[anonymous]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:21:19PM +0100, Connor Lane Smith wrote:
> ... because it clashes with the developers' CSS. That's the problem. I
> think there ought to be pure style-free semantic HTML, and then users
> can style every site to fit their personal needs, without it resulting
> in ugly.

http://suckless.org/ is not style-free at all.  Navigation is done using
lists and there are divs with ids "container", "midHeader", "main-copy"
and classes "left" and "right".  If you disable CSS, all these lists
can nearly fill entire screen and these divs are usless if you want to
create your own style.

IMO navigation lines on top should be done without lists like on
http://cat-v.org/.  Or, much better, navigation can be completely
removed and replaced with simple links like on http://www.mutt.org/.

Nice guidelines are already present on http://port70.net/webless/

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[ilf]

On 10-31 23:28, Nick wrote:
http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote 
which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works 
with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox. 


Awesome! I've had this idea for years, but never found anyone following 
through with it.


--
ilf

Über 80 Millionen Deutsche benutzen keine Konsole. Klick dich nicht weg!
-- Eine Initiative des Bundesamtes für Tastaturbenutzung


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Description: Digital signature

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Jens Staal]

2011/11/1 Nick :
> Quoth Peter John Hartman:
...
> Task maybe-one-maybe-two: make it play nice with webkit-gtk compiled
> against gtk3. Gtk3 probably sucks less than 2, but regardless, it's
> the future of webkit-gtk. Further into the future, hopefully an EFL
> based webkit port will happen, which would be less bad.
...

There is an EFL based webkit port[1], and a browser based on it (EVE [2])

I played with it a bit some time ago and perhaps not very stable, but
that was perhaps the browser and not the webkit port itself.

[1a] http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/EFLWebKit
[1b] http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/EWebKit <-- note the
buildable snapshots link

[2] http://svn.enlightenment.org/svn/e/trunk/eve/

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nick]

Quoth Connor Lane Smith:
> ... because it clashes with the developers' CSS. That's the problem. I
> think there ought to be pure style-free semantic HTML, and then users
> can style every site to fit their personal needs, without it resulting
> in ugly. Unfortunately people take the opportunity to fill their sites
> with useless text, adverts, and JavaScript, which makes this difficult
> to achieve. I want to live in an eternal local 'Readability'.

Indeed. HTML5 does in theory help this slightly, by adding article, 
header, menu tags, but basically people will probably continue 
shoving crap everywhere making such a strategy unworkable.

In the meantime, lynx works pretty well.


http://njw.me.uk/software/simplyread/ is a little js thing I wrote 
which is basically a nicer, simpler version of readability. works 
with surf, uzbl, chrome, firefox.



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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nick]

Quoth Peter John Hartman:
> Task One: Make it play nice with webkit-gtk 1.6.1 (which it doesn't; 1.4.2
> is as high as you can get.)

Task maybe-one-maybe-two: make it play nice with webkit-gtk compiled 
against gtk3. Gtk3 probably sucks less than 2, but regardless, it's 
the future of webkit-gtk. Further into the future, hopefully an EFL 
based webkit port will happen, which would be less bad.

I agree that surf is by far the suckiest thing in suckless.org, but 
it is very useful, and I don't think there's a better alternative 
for the crapper parts of the web (some of which are still useful to 
be able to access).

Also, Troels, a couple of patches I think should be applied are:
http://surf.suckless.org/patches/download
http://surf.suckless.org/patches/ssl
(of course I'm biased; these are both mine)


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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[pancake]

Adapting the makefile to link against gtk3 shouldnt be dramatic. At some point 
gtk2 will be like gtk1. And having two versions of the same lib sucks.

Im not using surf actually, but i find it nice to keep it in suckless. X11 is a 
huge dep for dwm and this is not a reason to kill it :P

On 31/10/2011, at 20:44, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 08:39:00PM +0100, Joerg Zinke wrote:
>> 
>> Am 31.10.2011 um 14:35 schrieb Peter John Hartman 
>> :
>> 
> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> webkitgtk carries away)
>> 
>> Shout!
>> 
 I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
 already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
 of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
 ways to make Surf more useful).
>>> 
>>> I second Troels self-nomination.  I use surf all the time.
>> 
>> ACK, same here. No better alternatives.
> 
> Ok surf will stay, but we need some maintainer who likes to volunteer if 
> Gottox
> really hasn't got the time anymore.
> 
> Cheers,
>Anselm
> 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 16:41, Jonathan Slark  wrote:
> Thinking about it what I don't like about CSS is that the majority of the
> web has a white background.  Yes, you can try and use custom CSS but then
> most of the web then looks ugly.

... because it clashes with the developers' CSS. That's the problem. I
think there ought to be pure style-free semantic HTML, and then users
can style every site to fit their personal needs, without it resulting
in ugly. Unfortunately people take the opportunity to fill their sites
with useless text, adverts, and JavaScript, which makes this difficult
to achieve. I want to live in an eternal local 'Readability'.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 21:35, Nico Golde  wrote:
> While this looks way more simple and sane I want to keep the behaviour for the
> -h command line switch as it's kinda expected to work with most programs.

If you don't check for '-h' it will still enter the switch and hit
default, resulting in usage() anyway. So it's superfluous.

> Rest applied.

Thanks. :)

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Jonathan Slark]

On 31/10/2011 15:25, Connor Lane Smith wrote:

Roff is actually one of the ugliest markup languages I have ever seen.
HTML is actually pretty decent if you think about it. It's
(more-or-less) XML, which isn't nice, but I'd take that over roff any
day. Anyway, the main problem with the web is the obsession with CSS
and JavaScript.


What's wrong with CSS?  It seems a decent way for a web developer to 
describe how they want a web site to look.  It even uses plain text to 
do it.


Thinking about it what I don't like about CSS is that the majority of 
the web has a white background.  Yes, you can try and use custom CSS but 
then most of the web then looks ugly.


Jon.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Connor Lane Smith  [2011-10-31 21:05]:
> On 31 October 2011 20:33, Nico Golde  wrote:
> > Sorry for the late response, missed this thread. I'm still maintaining and
> > using it. So do some other people who occasionally contact me.
> 
> Could you please apply the attached sanity patch? There are a few
> strange bits in the source.

Thanks a lot for the patch! Applied apart from one change:

>   snprintf(nick, sizeof(nick), "%s", spw->pw_name);
>   snprintf(prefix, sizeof(prefix),"%s/irc", spw->pw_dir);
> - if (argc <= 1 || (argc == 2 && argv[1][0] == '-' && argv[1][1] == 'h')) 
> usage();
> -
> + if(argc < 2)
> + usage();
>   for(i = 1; (i + 1 < argc) && (argv[i][0] == '-'); i++) {

While this looks way more simple and sane I want to keep the behaviour for the 
-h command line switch as it's kinda expected to work with most programs.
Rest applied.

Cheers
Nico
-- 
Nico Golde - http://www.ngolde.de - n...@jabber.ccc.de - GPG: 0xA0A0
For security reasons, all text in this mail is double-rot13 encrypted.


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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Anthony Martin  wrote:
> This is just a side effect of having to
> deal with X11 on Unix and not something
> intrinsically difficult about 9P.

imo it's specifically about libixp:  if the OS provides 9p interfaces
to use, that's one thing, but having to build them yourself isn't
worth the effort.


-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anthony Martin]

Anselm R Garbe  once said:
> It is also noteworthy to remember that I actually
> started dwm development *mainly* because I came
> to the conclusion that libixp or 9P in general
> makes it extraordinary more complex to write a
> simple tool like a window manager for no really
> good reason.

This is just a side effect of having to
deal with X11 on Unix and not something
intrinsically difficult about 9P.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Cheers,
  Anthony

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 20:33, Nico Golde  wrote:
> Sorry for the late response, missed this thread. I'm still maintaining and
> using it. So do some other people who occasionally contact me.

Could you please apply the attached sanity patch? There are a few
strange bits in the source.

Thanks,
cls
diff -r 1b2227123889 ii.c
--- a/ii.c	Mon Jan 31 21:47:02 2011 +0100
+++ b/ii.c	Mon Oct 31 21:00:28 2011 +0100
@@ -41,13 +41,12 @@
 static char message[PIPE_BUF]; /* message buf used for communication */
 
 static void usage() {
-	fprintf(stderr, "%s",
-			"ii - irc it - " VERSION "\n"
-			"(C)opyright MMV-MMVI Anselm R. Garbe\n"
-			"(C)opyright MMV-MMXI Nico Golde\n"
-			"usage: ii [-i ] [-s ] [-p ]\n"
-			"  [-n ] [-k ] [-f ]\n");
-	exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);
+	fputs("ii - irc it - " VERSION "\n"
+	  "(C)opyright MMV-MMVI Anselm R. Garbe\n"
+	  "(C)opyright MMV-MMXI Nico Golde\n"
+	  "usage: ii [-i ] [-s ] [-p ]\n"
+	  "  [-n ] [-k ] [-f ]\n", stderr);
+	exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
 }
 
 static char *striplower(char *s) {
@@ -89,7 +88,7 @@
 
 static void create_filepath(char *filepath, size_t len, char *channel, char *suffix) {
 	if(!get_filepath(filepath, len, striplower(channel), suffix)) {
-		fprintf(stderr, "%s", "ii: path to irc directory too long\n");
+		fputs("ii: path to irc directory too long\n", stderr);
 		exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
 	}
 }
@@ -240,12 +239,10 @@
 else snprintf(message, PIPE_BUF, "JOIN %s\r\n", &buf[3]);
 add_channel(&buf[3]);
 			}
-			else {
-if(p){
-	add_channel(&buf[3]);
-	proc_channels_privmsg(&buf[3], p + 1);
-	return;
-}
+			else if(p){
+add_channel(&buf[3]);
+proc_channels_privmsg(&buf[3], p + 1);
+return;
 			}
 			break;
 		case 't':
@@ -467,13 +464,13 @@
 	char prefix[_POSIX_PATH_MAX];
 
 	if(!spw) {
-		fprintf(stderr,"ii: getpwuid() failed\n");
+		fputs("ii: getpwuid() failed\n", stderr);
 		exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
 	}
 	snprintf(nick, sizeof(nick), "%s", spw->pw_name);
 	snprintf(prefix, sizeof(prefix),"%s/irc", spw->pw_dir);
-	if (argc <= 1 || (argc == 2 && argv[1][0] == '-' && argv[1][1] == 'h')) usage();
-
+	if(argc < 2)
+		usage();
 	for(i = 1; (i + 1 < argc) && (argv[i][0] == '-'); i++) {
 		switch (argv[i][1]) {
 			case 'i': snprintf(prefix,sizeof(prefix),"%s", argv[++i]); break;
@@ -487,7 +484,7 @@
 	}
 	irc = tcpopen(port);
 	if(!snprintf(path, sizeof(path), "%s/%s", prefix, host)) {
-		fprintf(stderr, "%s", "ii: path to irc directory too long\n");
+		fputs("ii: path to irc directory too long\n", stderr);
 		exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
 	}
 	create_dirtree(path);
@@ -496,5 +493,5 @@
 	login(key, fullname);
 	run();
 
-	return 0;
+	return EXIT_SUCCESS;
 }

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Joerg Zinke]

Am 31.10.2011 um 20:34 schrieb Peter John Hartman :

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:45:02PM -0600, Jeremy Jackins wrote:
>>> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
>>> 
>>> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
>>> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
>>> webkitgtk carries away)
>>> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
>> 
>> I'm fine with the other ones, but I'd like to cast my vote on keeping
>> these two, I use and love them. I would offer to maintain if necessary
>> but I haven't exactly been around long enough to earn the trust of
>> anyone.
> 
> Task One: Make it play nice with webkit-gtk 1.6.1 (which it doesn't; 1.4.2
> is as high as you can get.)

Surf and webkit 1.6.1 work from OpenBSD ports.

Regards,
Joerg

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 08:39:00PM +0100, Joerg Zinke wrote:
> 
> Am 31.10.2011 um 14:35 schrieb Peter John Hartman 
> :
> 
> >>> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> >>> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> >>> webkitgtk carries away)
> 
> Shout!
> 
> >> I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
> >> already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
> >> of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
> >> ways to make Surf more useful).
> > 
> > I second Troels self-nomination.  I use surf all the time.
> 
> ACK, same here. No better alternatives.

Ok surf will stay, but we need some maintainer who likes to volunteer if Gottox
really hasn't got the time anymore.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 08:33:05PM +0100, Nico Golde wrote:
> * Anselm R Garbe  [2011-10-31 11:02]:
> > On 31 October 2011 10:43, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:
> > > On 31 October 2011 08:38, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
> > >> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
> > >>
> > >> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
> > >
> > > I disagree with this on the basis that it's an interesting program. If
> > > need be I can maintain it.
> > 
> > For ii it is just a question of maintenance.
> 
> Sorry for the late response, missed this thread. I'm still maintaining and 
> using it. So do some other people who occasionally contact me.

Ok it stays ;)

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Joerg Zinke]

Am 31.10.2011 um 14:35 schrieb Peter John Hartman :

>>> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
>>> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
>>> webkitgtk carries away)

Shout!

>> I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
>> already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
>> of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
>> ways to make Surf more useful).
> 
> I second Troels self-nomination.  I use surf all the time.

ACK, same here. No better alternatives.

Regards,
Joerg

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Anselm R Garbe  [2011-10-31 11:02]:
> On 31 October 2011 10:43, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:
> > On 31 October 2011 08:38, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
> >> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
> >>
> >> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
> >
> > I disagree with this on the basis that it's an interesting program. If
> > need be I can maintain it.
> 
> For ii it is just a question of maintenance.

Sorry for the late response, missed this thread. I'm still maintaining and 
using it. So do some other people who occasionally contact me.

Cheers
Nico
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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Peter John Hartman]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:45:02PM -0600, Jeremy Jackins wrote:
> > The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
> >
> > * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> > take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> > webkitgtk carries away)
> > * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
> 
> I'm fine with the other ones, but I'd like to cast my vote on keeping
> these two, I use and love them. I would offer to maintain if necessary
> but I haven't exactly been around long enough to earn the trust of
> anyone.

Task One: Make it play nice with webkit-gtk 1.6.1 (which it doesn't; 1.4.2
is as high as you can get.)

Peter

-- 
sic dicit magister P
University of Toronto / Fordham University
Collins Hall B06; Office Hours TF10-12
http://individual.utoronto.ca/peterjh
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Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Jeremy Jackins]

> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
>
> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> webkitgtk carries away)
> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)

I'm fine with the other ones, but I'd like to cast my vote on keeping
these two, I use and love them. I would offer to maintain if necessary
but I haven't exactly been around long enough to earn the trust of
anyone.

Jeremy

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Paul Onyschuk]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:25:48 +
Connor Lane Smith wrote:

> 
> Roff is actually one of the ugliest markup languages I have ever seen.
> HTML is actually pretty decent if you think about it. It's
> (more-or-less) XML, which isn't nice, but I'd take that over roff any
> day. Anyway, the main problem with the web is the obsession with CSS
> and JavaScript.
> 

I'm not aware of any documentation directly written in roff.  I would
say that is nothing wrong with man pages, just tools are bad. Groff
(most popular troff formater) is very slow, to the point that
preformated man pages (so called cat pages) were quite popular.
Grep-ing them isn't fun.  If you wonder why, just dive in into man(1)
command code (4-5 pipes or even more before piping to pager).

Because cat pages were used, searching was pretty bad.  Apropos is
using data mostly from description and synopsis section of manuals.
Others problems arised after dot-com boom.  Generating HTML from roff
wasn't quiete easy.

So people from GNU came up with texinfo format, but man pages refused
to die.  Then we have seen DocBook rise, still man pages are around.
Now EPUB is next man-page-killer I heard.  Do you see any pattern here?

Most common are man(7) macros, but there are also mdoc(7) macros.
Below you can find simple comparison between those two, I wrote this
some time ago (example shows common SYNOPSIS section of manuals).

How it should look after formating:
foo [-bar] [-c config-file ] file ...

.\" First man(7) format:
.
.B foo [-bar] [-c
.I config-file
.B ]
.I file
.I ...
.
.\" B macro stands for bold text, I for italic text.

.\" Now mdoc(7) format:
.
.Nm foo
.Op Fl bar
.Op Fl c Ar config-file
.Ar file
.Ar
.
.\" Nm stands for manual name, Op for command-line option,
.\" Fl for command-line flag, Ar for command-line argument.

It's easy to recognize that man(7) is all about presentation
formatting, where mdoc(7) is structural format.  What this means?
Structural formats are easier to convert and they give information that
can be reused for searching (searching library man pages for specific C
function and so on).

Still in Groff case it doesn't matter - both formats are translated to
roff and structural data from mdoc(7) is lost.  Some time ago project
named mdocml [1] was created mostly by OpenBSD folks.  mdocml turns
whole paradigm upside down: end format is mdoc/man, and roff macros (if
there're any) are just additions. 

This way structural data from mdoc(7) isn't lost and can be used for
html/pdf/ps output (nice looking docs without additional steps).
Works on better apropos have also started.

There is also great guide about writing man pages (mdoc macros
specific) [2].


On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:57:08 -
"Bjartur Thorlacius" wrote:

>
> Just pipe the markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like
> reading documentation on terminal emulators.
>

$ mandoc -Thtml some_man_page.1 | lynx -stdin

If you like reading documentation in web browser.


[1] http://mdocml.bsd.lv/
[2] http://manpages.bsd.lv/

-- 
Paul Onyschuk 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Bjartur Thorlacius
 wrote:
> If someone wants to write ugly code we can't stop him. But what's
> wrong with supporting handwritten HTML documentation?
> I'm not proposing using autogenerated HTML recursively populated with
> divs by JavaScript. The only argument in favor of roff is widespread
> deplayment of groff. That's not enough reason to reject HTML
> documentation, in special considering widespread deployment of HTML
> viewers.

Fuck "widespread deployment."  That's the worst possible metric for
making these decisions.  If you go by "widespread deployment" we
should just abandon all unix-like operating systems and buy Windows
licenses.

I don't care if it's roff or whatever, all I want is a markup language
that can be easily processed by simple programs.  html is a morass of
bullshit hacks and workarounds to offset the fact that it's a shitty,
poorly-designed markup language.  We'd be better off with POD or such
than html.  Ideally we'd want a nice, regular language that can be
parsed with simple regular expressions.



-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Evan Gates]

With regards to ii,

> The problem imho is usability. Maybe some shellscripts or rcscripts can help 
> here..
>
> Iirc there was a program that was reading one line at the bottom and writing 
> to a pipe and getting the output of another pipe into the other part of the 
> screen. Like irssi/bx does but non monolitic and logging into a file, so you 
> can then call less $foo and read the chat logs for example

I wrote pcw[1] which will run a script for each channel when joined
and/or when new text is received.  By default it opens a new terminal
and runs cw, a program that gives stdin to the in fifo and basically
does a tail -f with the out file.

>I also think that it has some slight bugs with robustness (it should attempt 
>to reconnect if disconnected), but it is otherwise a very good program, and I 
>would be sad to see it go.

This is as simple as a one or two line patch in ii to fail with a new
exit status when it times out, along with a script on the user's side
to loop ii as long as the exit status is timeout.  That's what I've
done as part of my chat script[2] (I'm aware it's not entirely clean,
I haven't updated it recently).

> For ii it is just a question of maintenance.

I'd be happy to maintain or help maintain ii.  IMHO it's a great piece
of software and seems to fit in the suckless guidelines (with the
exception of exclusivity because of sic...)

-Evan (emg)

[1] https://bitbucket.org/emg/pcw
[2] https://bitbucket.org/emg/pcw/src/8e09291089bf/extras/chat.sh

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

On 10/31/11, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
> »And as long as the markup is terse« is a never fulfilled requirement.
> But surely, extending roff with runtime shellscripts will extend its
> usefulness. It's like Qt vs. plain C – redundancy vs. lean code.
>
If someone wants to write ugly code we can't stop him. But what's
wrong with supporting handwritten HTML documentation?
I'm not proposing using autogenerated HTML recursively populated with
divs by JavaScript. The only argument in favor of roff is widespread
deplayment of groff. That's not enough reason to reject HTML
documentation, in special considering widespread deployment of HTML
viewers.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Christoph Lohmann]

Greetings.

On 31.10.2011 15:57, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:34:10 -, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
>> Martin Kopta wrote:
>>> Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.
>>
>> Now bureaucracy begins. What documentation? A manpage should suffice,
>> when it reaches 1.0. I think it's already sucking, if a project really
>> needs a webbrowser to be opened for the documentation.
>>
> There's nothing wrong with HTML documentation per se, and it sure is not
> worse than ASCII. Why do you believe roff is better than HTML? Just pipe  
> the markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like reading  
> documentation on terminal emulators. And as long as the markup
> is terse, reading marked up text is perfectly acceptable.

»And as long as the markup is terse« is a never fulfilled requirement.
But surely, extending roff with runtime shellscripts will extend its
usefulness. It's like Qt vs. plain C – redundancy vs. lean code.


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 14:57, Bjartur Thorlacius  wrote:
> There's nothing wrong with HTML documentation per se, and it sure is not
> worse than ASCII. Why do you believe roff is better than HTML? Just pipe the
> markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like reading documentation
> on terminal emulators. And as long as the markup
> is terse, reading marked up text is perfectly acceptable.

Roff is actually one of the ugliest markup languages I have ever seen.
HTML is actually pretty decent if you think about it. It's
(more-or-less) XML, which isn't nice, but I'd take that over roff any
day. Anyway, the main problem with the web is the obsession with CSS
and JavaScript.

On 31 October 2011 15:04, pancake  wrote:
> Markdown is the only decent option for documentation. A part from a .docx

Markdown is great to use, but iirc has no well-defined syntax, which
makes it difficult to parse efficiently.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Bjartur Thorlacius
 wrote:
> There's nothing wrong with HTML documentation per se, and it sure is not
> worse than ASCII. Why do you believe roff is better than HTML? Just pipe the
> markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like reading documentation
> on terminal emulators. And as long as the markup
> is terse, reading marked up text is perfectly acceptable.

Are you completely insane


-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[pancake]

Markdown is the only decent option for documentation. A part from a .docx

On 31/10/2011, at 15:57, "Bjartur Thorlacius"  wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:34:10 -, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
>> Martin Kopta wrote:
>>> Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.
>> 
>> Now bureaucracy begins. What documentation? A manpage should suffice,
>> when it reaches 1.0. I think it's already sucking, if a project really
>> needs a webbrowser to be opened for the documentation.
>> 
> There's nothing wrong with HTML documentation per se, and it sure is not
> worse than ASCII. Why do you believe roff is better than HTML? Just pipe the 
> markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like reading documentation 
> on terminal emulators. And as long as the markup
> is terse, reading marked up text is perfectly acceptable.
> 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Bjartur Thorlacius]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:34:10 -, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:

Martin Kopta wrote:

Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.


Now bureaucracy begins. What documentation? A manpage should suffice,
when it reaches 1.0. I think it's already sucking, if a project really
needs a webbrowser to be opened for the documentation.


There's nothing wrong with HTML documentation per se, and it sure is not
worse than ASCII. Why do you believe roff is better than HTML? Just pipe  
the markup through htmlfmt(1) or html2text(1) if you like reading  
documentation on terminal emulators. And as long as the markup

is terse, reading marked up text is perfectly acceptable.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Peter John Hartman]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 08:44:01AM -0500, Stanley Lieber wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Jonathan Slark
>  wrote:
> > On 31/10/2011 13:33, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> >>
> >> No, it then becomes a pain in the ass for experts, because you get
> >> hundreds of illiterate assholes storming mailing lists and irc
> >> channels
> >
> > 
> >
> > We have literate assholes on the lists instead...
> 
> Which do you prefer?
> 

I'm pretty sure 'literate' and 'illiterate' aren't the right terms.

Peter


-- 
sic dicit magister P
University of Toronto / Fordham University
Collins Hall B06; Office Hours TF10-12
http://individual.utoronto.ca/peterjh
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys E0DBD3D6 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Stanley Lieber]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Jonathan Slark
 wrote:
> On 31/10/2011 13:33, Kurt H Maier wrote:
>>
>> No, it then becomes a pain in the ass for experts, because you get
>> hundreds of illiterate assholes storming mailing lists and irc
>> channels
>
> 
>
> We have literate assholes on the lists instead...

Which do you prefer?

-sl

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Jonathan Slark]

On 31/10/2011 13:33, Kurt H Maier wrote:

No, it then becomes a pain in the ass for experts, because you get
hundreds of illiterate assholes storming mailing lists and irc
channels




We have literate assholes on the lists instead...

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Peter John Hartman]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:42:19PM +0100, Troels Henriksen wrote:
> Anselm R Garbe  writes:
> 
> > * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> > take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> > webkitgtk carries away)
> 
> I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
> already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
> of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
> ways to make Surf more useful).

I second Troels self-nomination.  I use surf all the time.

Peter

-- 
sic dicit magister P
University of Toronto / Fordham University
Collins Hall B06; Office Hours TF10-12
http://individual.utoronto.ca/peterjh
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys E0DBD3D6 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:45 AM,   wrote:
> Putting elitism and relevance in the same line just doesn't make sense
> -- consider following: by chance, hundreds thousands of non-expert users
> discover the beauty of dwm through some end-user-friendly distro and
> overnight it's not only used by experts. Would it be then less relevant
> to experts?

No, it then becomes a pain in the ass for experts, because you get
hundreds of illiterate assholes storming mailing lists and irc
channels with messages that read "HI I AM A LARGE BUTT AND SOME JERK
PACKAGED WMII AND MY PHP CONFIGURATION SCRIPT ISN'T WORKING WHERE I
CAN I SEND PATCHES TO INCOMPETENTLY FIX THIS NON-ISSUE???"  Meanwhile
the ostensible maintainer of the software in question has swan-dived
off the face of the internet and can't be arsed to apply any patches,
even stupid ones.

If you're so concerned about dead, rotting code being removed from
suckless.org, open a bitbucket account, mirror all the endangered
suckless repos on it, and forget about it.

-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[pancake]

The problem imho is usability. Maybe some shellscripts or rcscripts can help 
here..

Iirc there was a program that was reading one line at the bottom and writing to 
a pipe and getting the output of another pipe into the other part of the 
screen. Like irssi/bx does but non monolitic and logging into a file, so you 
can then call less $foo and read the chat logs for example

On 31/10/2011, at 13:27, Krnk Ktz  wrote:

> >> For ii it is just a question of maintenance.
> 
> What should be done about ii? Are there features requests? I mean, it is a 
> great concept and works very well as it is, doesn't it?

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Troels Henriksen]

Connor Lane Smith  writes:

> On 31 October 2011 12:27, Krnk Ktz  wrote:
>> What should be done about ii? Are there features requests? I mean, it is a
>> great concept and works very well as it is, doesn't it?
>
> It works well, but the source could do with a little cleaning up.
> There are some weird things, like fprintf(stderr, "%s", ...), no
> forward declarations, very few comments, for some reason it doesn't
> use stdio so has no buffering, etc.

I also think that it has some slight bugs with robustness (it should
attempt to reconnect if disconnected), but it is otherwise a very good
program, and I would be sad to see it go.

-- 
\  Troels
/\ Henriksen

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 12:27, Krnk Ktz  wrote:
> What should be done about ii? Are there features requests? I mean, it is a
> great concept and works very well as it is, doesn't it?

It works well, but the source could do with a little cleaning up.
There are some weird things, like fprintf(stderr, "%s", ...), no
forward declarations, very few comments, for some reason it doesn't
use stdio so has no buffering, etc.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Krnk Ktz]

>> For ii it is just a question of maintenance.

What should be done about ii? Are there features requests? I mean, it is a
great concept and works very well as it is, doesn't it?

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* Anselm R Garbe  [2011-10-31 12:51]:
> On 31 October 2011 12:45,   wrote:
> > -- consider following: by chance, hundreds thousands of non-expert users
> 
> This scenario is very unlikely,

I agree, not the best example. My remark was not of great practical
relevance, I know.  

That aside, many things have been judged unlikely to the point of
impossible and still happened. And always there are people to say "I
told you" and become famous for that. So, it's worth doubting decisions
even if you don't know any better. hehe.

> judging from the Stockholm syndrome
> Apple users suffer from.

Funny you say that, after I read this weekend at least three comments
along the lines of:

"It turns out the iPad Camera Connection Kit ($29) can be used
for much more than just connecting to a camera. Could this be
another iPad surprise from Cupertino?" source:[1]

Surprise!!

Buy a USB host cable, name it Camera Connection Kit, sell it for 30$, make 
money.
Buy a USB host cable, name it Storage Magic Connector, sell it for 30$, make 
money.
Buy a USB host cable, name it Incredible Whatever, sell it for 30$, make money.

And they adore you!

cheers,
-- 
 stanio_

[1] 
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/surprise-ipad-camera-kit-supports-audio-keyboards/6716

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 31 October 2011 12:45,   wrote:
> * Anselm R Garbe  [2011-10-31 10:12]:
>> I'm working on such guidelines. The main aspects are:
>>
>>
>> 1. Relevance/Elitism: the project must be relevant in the context of
>> suckless.org's target audience, it must target expert
>> users/developers/administrators and _not_ typical end users.
>
> Putting elitism and relevance in the same line just doesn't make sense
> -- consider following: by chance, hundreds thousands of non-expert users
> discover the beauty of dwm through some end-user-friendly distro and
> overnight it's not only used by experts. Would it be then less relevant
> to experts?

This scenario is very unlikely, judging from the Stockholm syndrome
Apple users suffer from.

> The guidelines should only depend on project properties and on
> properties of the problem the project addresses.

The guidelines we are talking about are about what the suckless.org
project targets and what not. Of course each project might have
guidelines that are highly dependent on the project properties, but
this is beyond the scope of cleaning all the mess up that suckless.org
is today.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[stanio]

* Anselm R Garbe  [2011-10-31 10:12]:
> I'm working on such guidelines. The main aspects are:
> 
> 
> 1. Relevance/Elitism: the project must be relevant in the context of
> suckless.org's target audience, it must target expert
> users/developers/administrators and _not_ typical end users.

Putting elitism and relevance in the same line just doesn't make sense
-- consider following: by chance, hundreds thousands of non-expert users
discover the beauty of dwm through some end-user-friendly distro and
overnight it's not only used by experts. Would it be then less relevant
to experts?

The guidelines should only depend on project properties and on
properties of the problem the project addresses. 

cheers,
-- 
 stanio_

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Dieter Plaetinck]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:11:28 +0100
Anselm R Garbe  wrote:

> 3. Quality: the project must aim to be a quality finished product once
> exceeding the 1.0 version number and be maintained afterwards.
> Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one
> year.

those kind of version numbers are usually pretty arbitrary. why not just use 
date based versions,
and call it beta software as long as it doesn't meet the appropriate criteria.

Dieter

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Troels Henriksen]

Anselm R Garbe  writes:

> * surf (seems dead, please shout if you disagree or if anyone wants to
> take this on, it doesn't make sense if it is not maintained, as
> webkitgtk carries away)

I wouldn't mind taking maintainership of Surf, if necessary.  I'm
already maintaining an off-tree fork with some changes (although not all
of those changes are "suckless", I think I have figured out some good
ways to make Surf more useful).

-- 
\  Troels
/\ Henriksen

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 31 October 2011 12:14, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:
> On 31 October 2011 10:59, Aurélien Aptel  wrote:
>> I also think libixp and ii should stay. I don't use them personally
>> but I think they follow the suckless philosophy.
>
> ii does, but since 2007 the originally suckless libixp has been
> bloated up alongside wmii. The repository includes *broken*
> autogenerated manpages, and Ruby interpreter bindings.

The main problem with current libixp is that it incorporated quite a
lot original Plan 9 resources. The original idea was to achieve a 9P
implementation that is fully MIT licensed and completely independent
from any Plan 9 resources.

Apart from this I'm not aware of any other project than wmii actually
using libixp, so from a suckless point of view there is not much
justification in keeping it for its own purpose at suckless.org.

It is also noteworthy to remember that I actually started dwm
development *mainly* because I came to the conclusion that libixp or
9P in general makes it extraordinary more complex to write a simple
tool like a window manager for no really good reason. There are for
more simple ways to "configure" a window manager during runtime, like
the very first libixp that wasn't 9P compliant at all, but more a
command controllable property bag that had some hooks in the very
first wmii implementation. Back in those days Uriel was whining that
this wasn't 9P and that with a real 9P solution we would gain so much
more. In retrospective we didn't gain anything in spending so much
effort into libixp, at least this lesson was worth learning.

Using libixp in any way contains a very high risk in ending up with
much more complexity than necessary. And we have a great show case for
this in our own experience: wmii vs dwm.

This is why libixp does not belong to the sharpened suckless.org philosophy.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 10:59, Aurélien Aptel  wrote:
> I also think libixp and ii should stay. I don't use them personally
> but I think they follow the suckless philosophy.

ii does, but since 2007 the originally suckless libixp has been
bloated up alongside wmii. The repository includes *broken*
autogenerated manpages, and Ruby interpreter bindings.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Martin Kopta]

I agree with libixp and ii staying.

mkopta

On 10/31/2011 11:59 AM, Aurélien Aptel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:

* skvm (who uses this? development seems dead)


I use it. I installed it 1 or 2 years ago, never bothered to update it
since it works.
I also think libixp and ii should stay. I don't use them personally
but I think they follow the suckless philosophy.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Aurélien Aptel]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
> * skvm (who uses this? development seems dead)

I use it. I installed it 1 or 2 years ago, never bothered to update it
since it works.
I also think libixp and ii should stay. I don't use them personally
but I think they follow the suckless philosophy.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Patrick Haller]

On 2011-10-31 10:49, pancake wrote:
> I dont understand the point of documentation.

Neither do I, so let's triage:

Deviation from Convention
served by README

Commentary on the Code
served by IRC, mailing list

What is this? How do I?
bless some wiki/forum someplace as *the* place for users


Patrick

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 10:00, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
> The current approach of having a README and a manpage is enough. If
> someone needs additional info, there is the wiki.

Oh, I'm not suggesting we package extra documentation *with* dwm, only
that we improve the documentation on the wiki. It really needs some
love.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 31 October 2011 10:43, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:
> On 31 October 2011 08:38, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
>> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
>>
>> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
>
> I disagree with this on the basis that it's an interesting program. If
> need be I can maintain it.

For ii it is just a question of maintenance.

> On 31 October 2011 09:34, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
>> What documentation? A manpage should suffice
>
> A manpage is a reference material. We often need more documentation
> than reference materials, and we don't want to put everything into our
> manpages and end up with some GNU-esque monstrosity.

The current approach of having a README and a manpage is enough. If
someone needs additional info, there is the wiki.

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[pancake]

I dont understand the point of documentation.

If config/compile/install/uninstall must be documented we have a problem.

The target users we expect should be smart enought to read the source in case 
of doubt. But comments in config.h should be clear enought to not allow users 
to fall in c.

On 31/10/2011, at 10:43, Connor Lane Smith  wrote:

> On 31 October 2011 08:38, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
>> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
>> 
>> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)
> 
> I disagree with this on the basis that it's an interesting program. If
> need be I can maintain it.
> 
> On 31 October 2011 09:34, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
>> What documentation? A manpage should suffice
> 
> A manpage is a reference material. We often need more documentation
> than reference materials, and we don't want to put everything into our
> manpages and end up with some GNU-esque monstrosity.
> 
> cls
> 

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 31 October 2011 08:38, Anselm R Garbe  wrote:
> The current list of unclear removal candidates is:
>
> * ii (Nion, are you still maintaining it?)

I disagree with this on the basis that it's an interesting program. If
need be I can maintain it.

On 31 October 2011 09:34, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote:
> What documentation? A manpage should suffice

A manpage is a reference material. We often need more documentation
than reference materials, and we don't want to put everything into our
manpages and end up with some GNU-esque monstrosity.

cls

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Martin Kopta]

README and manpage should be enough. The README should answer "What it 
is", "What it is good for", "How to 
compile/install/uninstall/configure/..", "Who is responsible" and 
manpage should answer "How to use it". But I am probably all wrong.


mkopta

On 10/31/2011 10:34 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote:

Greetings.

Martin Kopta wrote:

Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.


Now bureaucracy begins. What documentation? A manpage should suffice,
when it reaches 1.0. I think it's already sucking, if a project really
needs a webbrowser to be opened for the documentation.


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Christoph Lohmann]

Greetings.

Martin Kopta wrote:
> Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.

Now bureaucracy begins. What documentation? A manpage should suffice,
when it reaches 1.0. I think it's already sucking, if a project really
needs a webbrowser to be opened for the documentation.


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Anselm R Garbe]

On 31 October 2011 10:19, hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> proper language. We only accept C and Go at the moment.
>
> So rc is not good enough?

It is, but an exception for a suckless.org project I think. I don't
expect many rc only based projects.

>> Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one year.
>
> What if it doesn't need to be maintained?

At least it needs to be maintained in a sense to check if it still
builds from time to time. And it needs a responsible maintainer. We
have some projects in hg that seem dead because their maintainers have
disappeared or are unresponsive for other reasons.

>> 5. Exclusivity: the project must be unique, i.e. it should not solve a
> problem that is solved by another suckless.org project.
>
> Competing projects aren't evil.

There is enough competition outside suckless.org ;)

Cheers,
Anselm

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[hiro]

> proper language. We only accept C and Go at the moment.

So rc is not good enough?


> Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one year.

What if it doesn't need to be maintained?


> 5. Exclusivity: the project must be unique, i.e. it should not solve a
problem that is solved by another suckless.org project.

Competing projects aren't evil.

Re: [dev] [dwm] 2000 SLOC

[Martin Kopta]

Proposal: 6. It has useful documentation.

On 10/31/2011 10:11 AM, Anselm R Garbe wrote:

On 31 October 2011 10:01, Martin Kopta  wrote:

Are there any explicit rules which project must follow in order to be part
of suckless? What is the line in here?


I'm working on such guidelines. The main aspects are:


1. Relevance/Elitism: the project must be relevant in the context of
suckless.org's target audience, it must target expert
users/developers/administrators and _not_ typical end users.

2. Simplicity: the project must solve the problem in a simple way and
in a proper language. We only accept C and Go at the moment.

3. Quality: the project must aim to be a quality finished product once
exceeding the 1.0 version number and be maintained afterwards.
Unmaintained projects will be removed after a grace period of one
year.

4. Frugality: the project must be maintainable by a single individual,
thus it should not exceed 10k SLOC (ideally it fits<  2kSLOC).

5. Exclusivity: the project must be unique, i.e. it should not solve a
problem that is solved by another suckless.org project.


I hope this is a good starting point.

Cheers,
Anselm