Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
I do not understand the instance of 200 or more watts. Most gear made in the past, and even the majority of rigs made today, run 100 watts. Lets keep it to that, or lower, to avoid pushing everyone into thinking they need an amp for digital modes. It becomes a rat race, with the biggest rat wanting the highest power, and then still leaving off those who have neither the money, nor the QTH where an amp could be use . Level the playing field for these guys and dont encourage them to use more power than necessary to make a QSO. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB All 2 years or more (except Novice). Short stints at: DA/PA/SU/HZ/7X/DU CR9/7Y/KH7/5A/GW/GM/F Pls QSL direct, buro, or LOTW preferred, I Do not use, but as a courtesy do upload to eQSL for those who do. Moderator DXandTALK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk Digital_modes http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digital_modes/?yguid=341090159 - Original Message - From: Rik van Riel To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Cc: Gary Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital On 12/15/2009 12:55 PM, Gary wrote: > I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: > I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. IIRC the Tech license pool does not include all the questions about RF safety, nor about use of the ALC, etc... I believe the power limit and frequencies HF use by Tech licensed amateurs should be low. Maybe 10-20W power limit, in a few limited frequency ranges (staying away from the most crowded bands). I could see adding 30m digital privileges to Tech, maybe 80m too, but 20, 40 and 15m already have too many people who don't know their what their ALC readout means :) -- All rights reversed.
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
On 12/15/2009 12:55 PM, Gary wrote: > I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: > I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a > maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There > may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is > a starting point for discussion. IIRC the Tech license pool does not include all the questions about RF safety, nor about use of the ALC, etc... I believe the power limit and frequencies HF use by Tech licensed amateurs should be low. Maybe 10-20W power limit, in a few limited frequency ranges (staying away from the most crowded bands). I could see adding 30m digital privileges to Tech, maybe 80m too, but 20, 40 and 15m already have too many people who don't know their what their ALC readout means :) -- All rights reversed.
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Dave Ackrill wrote: > Doing down people because they pass an exam and you do not think is as > rigorous as the one that you passed does not prove that they are less > able than you. In my opinion. > > Dave (G0DJA) I hope that the percentage of hams who look down on newcomers who passed what they view as a "lesser" test is small although they may be a rather vocal minority. In many activities it's the whiners and complainers we here from the most. For me personally I could care less when someone got their license or what vintage of test they took. My only criteria is 'did I enjoy the QSO?'. 73, Tim, N9PUZ
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Phil Williams wrote: > If you got the license, you have every right to be here as these they do. It's one of my own points of view that you have to meet the licence requirements as they stand when you apply. So, Einstein or Hawkins would have had to take the same entry exam when or if they decided to apply for an Amateur Radio Licence as every other applicant would have had to at that time. So, if either Einstein or Hawkins were to apply now for an Amateur Radio Licence, and pass, would they be seen as some how less of a Radio Amateur than others? Doing down people because they pass an exam and you do not think is as rigorous as the one that you passed does not prove that they are less able than you. In my opinion. Dave (G0DJA) Suggested frequencies for calling CQ with experimental digital modes = 3584,10147, 14074 USB on your dial plus 1000Hz on waterfall. Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Pages at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: digitalradio-dig...@yahoogroups.com digitalradio-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: digitalradio-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Don't fear the 'old guard'. Don't let them push you around. In fact, push back. When it gets down to it, they're pretty harmless and really just fun to watch. If you got the license, you have every right to be here as these they do. We must get beyond the technocratic caste system as it does no one any good. This practice of judging someone's character, based on what mode they do/do not use or how their call sign is formatted or worse, the class of their license, is ridiculous! We don't need quiet bands. Unless we want the bands taken away from us. Get on and operate. Be active. Explore all the aspects of this great hobby. Please, try out all these wonderful digital modes that the developers have worked so hard to provide us with to enjoy. Don't about those who claim to have, "been here first". These people have low self esteem and have a need to beat down others so they'll feel good about themselves. I had deal with the "old guard' when I first came in to this hobby. You know what? They all got old and died and the bands became a better place for it. We were shunned because we wanted to operate packet stations and heavens forbid, hook up a computer to it. This was the 80's and we were still living in caves then. This hobby...this thing that we do, only gets better by inclusion and and exclusion. We must welcome every new op to hobby with open arms and recognize that they are the ones who will save us from our own narrow mindedness. philw de ka1gmn On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Brian Denley wrote: > > > You would think those 'old guard' guys would consider that we used to have > to know binary and 2's complement math to use a computer at all. The > technology got to the point where you didn't need those 'older' skills. We > are better for it. > Brian Denley > http://home.comcast.net/~b.denley/index.html<http://home.comcast.net/%7Eb.denley/index.html> > > > ----- Original Message - > From: "Dan Hensley" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital > > Another problem is that the "old guard" who have an axe to grind against > new > amateurs due to the change in licensing requirements and other new FCC > policies to go with that change which occurred back in Feb of 2007, are > running new amateurs off in droves. > > Hazing or outright threatening behavior by hams licensed before Feb of 2007 > > is another reason new hams are not getting on the air. I went through this > myself. A mentality has arisen that "amateur radio is only for listening > and > you're never supposed to transmit". Everyone wants the bands quiet and > wants > the next amateur to just stop operating. > > > --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Glenn L. Roeser > > > wrote: > > >
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
I ONLY SEND REAL CARDS TRY ME TOO .. --- On Wed, 12/16/09, "John Becker, WØJAB" wrote: From: "John Becker, WØJAB" Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 12:08 PM At 10:41 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote in part: >No one wants to send real cards. I would have cards made, >but who would I send them to when i know damn well I ain't >gonna get a REAL card in return? try me!
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
At 10:41 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote in part: >No one wants to send real cards. I would have cards made, >but who would I send them to when i know damn well I ain't >gonna get a REAL card in return? try me!
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Gary I feel you are right on ! The problem is very much people are just lazy and want everything on a silver platter. Many feel it's a "right" not a "privilege " I can see by your call that you have been here for a while. I can still remember question number 5 on my test. "what happens to the plate (fig 5) if the screen resistor opens?" On my cold snowy day of testing before the FCC I had to drive from ST. Louis to KC to take the test. And get there before 8AM. Getting up well before sunrise and getting home well after dark. But did walk out with the ham and the first class radio telephone in hand. The hard part was driving back home to St. Louis with a fried brain. If I had to do it all over again. I would do it today not back in the 1970. What's next? Curb service? At 09:27 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote: > Hello Gary, > >Gone are the days of being proud of getting your General or >Extra Class ticket. Taking a bus to the FCC field office in the city making >a day of it. Now days just memorize the answers and your a Extra Class. >The system nowadays is so easy a Cave Man with a IQ of five, could get a > license. >Being a VE here also, I see testes that know the answers but nothing more > about them. >The basic problem people are just lazy and want everything on a silver > platter. >You should show these Tech's what they are missing out on, maybe they will > upgrade. >Remember you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. >Now flame time. > >73 Gary WB6BNE >
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Im not sure where to go with this. I appreciate the fact that you agree with many of us that the dropping of the CW requirement for Extra was the wrong way to go. Many others will disagree with that, and like politics, they won and we all have to live with that decision. But, it is no reason to give up and just quit. You have made your own personal decision to learn code, and indeed that does make one more able to fullfill the "ideal" of a ham radio operator, in the view of many inside and outside of ham radio. That simply means you have the skill to use that mode, unlike many newcomers to the hobby. Back when it was required, though, many passed the test and never again touched a key or tried to copy a CW QSO. That was a personal decision, much like learning enough electronics to pass the test, yet never opening the case of a rig, or building even the simplest circuit. Again, a personal decision, but at least one has the capability to do so later, if he so desires. As for the QSL card thing, I would disagree with the idea that no one sends cards. Just ask the bureau sorters today. They report higher and higher numbers of cards handled, almost from a month to month basis. My incoming envelopes are coming more often, and are stuffed fuller with cards, than ever before. I design and print my own cards today, just like I have for the past 43 years or more. It used to be a much more difficult procedure, but with the computer, it is but a moment of my time to print up, and cut, another few cards. I certainly appreciate my home made cards, and those of others who do the same. Yes, a nice double sided, colored, postcard type QSL is nice to look at, but simply costs money on the part of the sender. Mine, and other homebrew cards require some artistic output on our own part, and I think they even more represent the true spirit of ham radio. So, dont buy 1000 cards. Print a few, and see how many you use. That allows you to change them, if you find you need to add new information, or remove old. A change of address, calls, DXCC status: or adding your zone or grid square is easy to do. This year is the 100th birthday of Boy Scouting in the USA, so my latest cards have a picture of Baden Powell, the founder and indicate its my 61st year in the program. Oh, and yes, I do upload to both LOTW and eQSL, and appreciate receiving confirmation matches on LOTW, because those come faster, and one can be assured they really do count for any of the ARRL awards for which they have been announced (DXCC-WAS) . I simply have way too many cards here already, and do not need another 50 or 100 French or English or German cards, etc. I do have at least one card for every country worked (333), and though I appreciate the fact that others may want a card - and do send one for every one received - I like the fact of savining both money and time when I do not have to send out another card and the ham on the other end says "LOTW please".I do not use the eQSL awards program, but see no reason to refuse to upload to that program, for the other guy. Oh, and by the way, its not just the powerhouse stations using LOTW, many many of my matches and verifications are from 100 watt stations (or less) from around the world. Right now, my country status is: Real cards 333 - LOTW 269 - eQSL 199. Proof in the pudding - hams still use real cards. If the powerhouse stations were not using LOTW, by the way, you might just have difficulty getting a card from some of them anyway. Who wants to sit around and fill out 100,000 cards? Eventually you would probably get one, if you still wanted it, but in the meantime, the rest of us have already got itconfirmed and verified in the DXCC program. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB All 2 years or more (except Novice). Short stints at: DA/PA/SU/HZ/7X/DU CR9/7Y/KH7/5A/GW/GM/F Pls QSL direct, buro, or LOTW preferred, I Do not use, but as a courtesy do upload to eQSL for those who do. Moderator DXandTALK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk Digital_modes http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digital_modes/?yguid=341090159
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
You would think those 'old guard' guys would consider that we used to have to know binary and 2's complement math to use a computer at all. The technology got to the point where you didn't need those 'older' skills. We are better for it. Brian Denley http://home.comcast.net/~b.denley/index.html - Original Message - From: "Dan Hensley" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital Another problem is that the "old guard" who have an axe to grind against new amateurs due to the change in licensing requirements and other new FCC policies to go with that change which occurred back in Feb of 2007, are running new amateurs off in droves. Hazing or outright threatening behavior by hams licensed before Feb of 2007 is another reason new hams are not getting on the air. I went through this myself. A mentality has arisen that "amateur radio is only for listening and you're never supposed to transmit". Everyone wants the bands quiet and wants the next amateur to just stop operating. --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Glenn L. Roeser wrote:
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
"In the end, we're all just a bunch of nerds who enjoy a strange hobby" An honest assessment. or "in the end, we're all a bunch of strange nerds who enjoy a hobby" Personally, I would not have it anyway. philw de ka1gmn
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Gary wrote: > So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician > Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands > and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I do not think this is a good idea. In fact if it were up for comment at the FCC I would campaign against it. Just because a current technician licensee CHOOSES to not use the privileges he/she already has is no reason to give them additional privileges. I agree there is a fair amount of effort involved in learning CW. There is however no more effort in learning to use computer generated/computer decoded CW than any of the other digital modes you propose they be allowed. They have that privilege now yet they don't use it to any great extent. Why aren't they using it if they think digital modes on HF would be so cool? I think most people who really derive satisfaction from a hobby, any hobby, do so because they learn new skills and accomplish things over time. For many of us that may be mastering CW, upgrading our license, or building a first successful kit. For others it may be their first solo RC flight, their first slot car race where they don't come in dead last or a perfect finish on the furniture they just built. Satisfaction and fulfillment are EARNED. You can't 'give' someone a sense of self-satisfaction by eliminating or relaxing all the rules. They can't buy real satisfaction by plunking down money for an HF station and paying someone to install it because they don't know how. There's a saying among long time motorcycle riders... "Twenty Thousand Dollars and a black T-Shirt doesn't make you a biker." There should be something similar for amateur radio. I am absolutely for the changes we've seen to make amateur radio more accessible. It's great that someone can test and upgrade with a VE Team instead of taking vacation to go to an FCC Field office like I did when I upgraded from Novice to Technician (I failed the 13WPM code test the first time.) I don't even mind dropping the CW requirement but only as a separate test element. I think it should still be on the test but with no more or less weight than any other mode. People who get involved in amateur radio do so for all sorts of different, valid reasons. Some are happy and fulfilled doing public service events with a VHF hand held without ever going further. Others attend a course thinking the general idea sounds interesting but they decide maybe it isn't even though they've passed their test. Others do it all and earn their Extra and try every mode imaginable over time. I think that one reason we don't have more ACTIVE hams that decide to pursue higher licenses and privileges is that we do a poor job of teaching them about ham radio. Don't get me wrong, we do a bang up job of teaching them to pass their Tech exam. How much time is actually spent "Elmering"? You know... having a club station with times for people to come by, drink a coffee or a can of pop and have one of the grey beards show them how to build a dipole or have a CW QSO across the table with code oscillators, or setup and use an HF rig with computer software to do CW, or ... Well, I imagine you see my point. Though you may not agree. I'll turn it over to someone else now. I'm sure I've written enough to have been branded a curmudgeon. 73, Tim, N9PUZ
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Mr. Hinton, You have hit the nail right on the head! I have a really busy life the last many months and want to get study in for my Extra class ticket. I have my ARRL VE Credentials but cannot give a test until I have that Extra ticket in hand. Your comment about being proud of earning your ticket is right on and it really resonated with me because even though I am a No Code, I actually wish they would have kept the code and added skills instead of taking away. I just came along at the wrong time. I was once very proficient with CW, but wonder if I can ever pick it up again. I never used it on the bands, as I didn't have my ticket back then. I wanted to say that my pride in having earned everything I have is diminished. I am contemplating letting my ticket expire and giving it up from the experience I have had so far. I was going to sell my shack many months ago because I needed money, but it worked out that I didn't have to go that far. I have ambitions such as getting DXCC and WAS and Triple Play, but I have sadly found that everyone wants to use eqsl.cc and those don't count! No one wants to send real cards. I would have cards made, but who would I send them to when i know damn well I ain't gonna get a REAL card in return? My LOTW confirmations are a joke. I see many amateurs who can get confirmation on LOTW like wildfire, but those are powerhouse stations and I think I see that us lower power 100 watt stations just don't seem to be worth anyone's time. --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Gary A. Hinton wrote: From: Gary A. Hinton Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 7:27 PM Hello Gary, Gone are the days of being proud of getting your General or Extra Class ticket. Taking a bus to the FCC field office in the city making a day of it. Now days just memorize the answers and your a Extra Class. The system nowadays is so easy a Cave Man with a IQ of five, could get a license. Being a VE here also, I see testes that know the answers but nothing more about them. The basic problem people are just lazy and want everything on a silver platter. You should show these Tech's what they are missing out on, maybe they will upgrade. Remember you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Now flame time. 73 Gary WB6BNE - Original Message - From: Gary To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Hello Gary, Gone are the days of being proud of getting your General or Extra Class ticket. Taking a bus to the FCC field office in the city making a day of it. Now days just memorize the answers and your a Extra Class. The system nowadays is so easy a Cave Man with a IQ of five, could get a license. Being a VE here also, I see testes that know the answers but nothing more about them. The basic problem people are just lazy and want everything on a silver platter. You should show these Tech's what they are missing out on, maybe they will upgrade. Remember you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Now flame time. 73 Gary WB6BNE - Original Message - From: Gary To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
...We're no longer amateur radio operators though. We're all just a bunch of "educated CB'ers". When you take the licensing we have in place, the lack of equipment availability for working on one's equipment and teh fact that the factories make it damn impossible even if you DO know what you're doing. Take all teh similarities between us and CB, especially the ignorance that happens on ALL of the bands CONSTANTLY, and we're just using "souped up CB". Like any other amateur, I understand some things better than others and have my weaknesses. My strength is antenna feedlines, antennas, propagation, and manipulative operating in substandard propagation conditions. Others are more skilled in the interior of the radios and are hard core components gurus. Most of those folks are also the math geniuses. My strength is NOT math, except certain types of math for very specific uses. That goes to say I have a limitation. In the end, we're all just a bunch of nerds who enjoy a strange hobby. --- On Tue, 12/15/09, "John Becker, WØJAB" wrote: From: "John Becker, WØJAB" Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 6:02 PM At 06:54 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote: >I would agree with Danny but think it would be better just limiting them to 5 >watts (and avoiding the CW bands) . To really annoy people, I will point out >my long standing view that a license should not be required at all, other >than the completion of a three hour safety and regulation course. > >Andy K3UK I remember way back in the 50's and 60's listing to the 11 meter band there was some kind of law & order. Then the FCC again with all their wisdom dropped having to have a license of any kind and I think the rest of the story is well known by all.
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
At 06:54 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote: >I would agree with Danny but think it would be better just limiting them to 5 >watts (and avoiding the CW bands) . To really annoy people, I will point out >my long standing view that a license should not be required at all, other >than the completion of a three hour safety and regulation course. > >Andy K3UK I remember way back in the 50's and 60's listing to the 11 meter band there was some kind of law & order. Then the FCC again with all their wisdom dropped having to have a license of any kind and I think the rest of the story is well known by all.
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital--Just a course in safety?
I have to disagree with this one. The one reason we have for being able to legally work on or even build our own equipment is that we supposedly have proven at least some technical knowledge and ability in the electronics field. Where does it stop? CBers cannot even tune up their own gear, let alone build it, and the great difference is that they havent proven their ability to do so. Yes, I know, a majority of todays hams simply dont open the case of their rigs, but many of us do. It all comes down the the point: we are allowed to do so. Even a Novice was allowed to do so. The systemitic steps upward to Extra class were intended to encourage us to learn more, in order to gain more bandwidth and modes. Take that away, and we could just throw up our hands and let Sears and Walmart sell ham gear to anyone who walks in. Where would we be then? (Yeah, cheaper gear- with lots more ignorant operators who arent there for the hobby, but to jam the rest of us?). Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB All 2 years or more (except Novice). Short stints at: DA/PA/SU/HZ/7X/DU CR9/7Y/KH7/5A/GW/GM/F Pls QSL direct, buro, or LOTW preferred,
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
The key word here is "past". we are in the here and now. People have changed. I agree with Andy...get rid of licensing and just give amateurs a good, solid course on safety, regulations, and ethical behavior. --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Dave Ackrill wrote: From: Dave Ackrill Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 4:38 PM Dan Hensley wrote: > I want to start with the fact that we remain in a very bad economy and people > are losing their jobs. People are losing their homes, and everyone is trying > to hold on to their money. Along with this problem, there exists the issue of > what it costs to buy quality amateur equipment and then there is having to > deal with any antenna restrictions. Sorry, but it you look back over the last 60 years the economic ups and downs have very little effect on the numbers of Radio Amateurs, or even people engaging in hobbies. In fact, if you look at slot cars and model trains, the major jumps in people taking up these hobbies occur when the slumps in economic trends occur... Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
At 03:33 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote: >Another problem is that the "old guard" who have an axe to grind against new >amateurs due to the change in licensing requirements and other new FCC >policies to go with that change which occurred back in Feb of 2007, are >running new amateurs off in droves. I really think all of us "old guard" guys got over it years ago. John, W0JAB have a look inside my pick up here http://www.hamradio-dv.org/aor/digital-ssb/fellow-users/fellow-users-pics/w0jab/w0jab-stn.htm
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
I would agree with Danny but think it would be better just limiting them to 5 watts (and avoiding the CW bands) . To really annoy people, I will point out my long standing view that a license should not be required at all, other than the completion of a three hour safety and regulation course. Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Dan Hensley wrote: > I want to start with the fact that we remain in a very bad economy and people > are losing their jobs. People are losing their homes, and everyone is trying > to hold on to their money. Along with this problem, there exists the issue of > what it costs to buy quality amateur equipment and then there is having to > deal with any antenna restrictions. Sorry, but it you look back over the last 60 years the economic ups and downs have very little effect on the numbers of Radio Amateurs, or even people engaging in hobbies. In fact, if you look at slot cars and model trains, the major jumps in people taking up these hobbies occur when the slumps in economic trends occur... Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digitalI totally agree with W2XJ 73 de WB4M Buddy - Original Message - From: W2XJ To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I think it is a bad idea. With the way licensing has already been simplified, anyone with a technician license can easily just go get a General. -- From: Gary Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:55:14 - To: Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Why not encourage them to simply UPGRADE their license?? Instead handing out more freebies? 73 WB4M Buddy - Original Message - From: "Gary" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:55 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital >I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: > > With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of > 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for > radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who > attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more > than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a > possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for > distant contacts. > > We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a > transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be > less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: > good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams > getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone > to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. > > Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF > bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as > there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the > time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away > was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least > theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. > > So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician > Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do > you think that would be of interest to new hams? > > I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something > like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power > limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the > mix but this is a starting point for discussion. > > Your thoughts? > > Gary - N0GW > > > > > > Suggested frequencies for calling CQ with experimental digital modes = > 3584,10147, 14074 USB on your dial plus 1000Hz on waterfall. > > Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Pages at > http://www.obriensweb.com/sked > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Why not? I used to do packet on 10 meters back about 1990 or so when I got my Tech (Kam TNC with a Radio Shack HTX-100 at home. Whatever my club station had at work.) Could stimulate more activity on 10 meters while waiting for the sun spots to show up! Should also consider digital modes on U/VHF, too. 73, kevin kc6pob
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Perhaps I can give you some insight at various levels of though as to why new hams are NOT getting on the air. What I'm about to say should not be mistaken for the words of someone with an axe to grind or confused with someone who is simply being unpleasant. I want to start with the fact that we remain in a very bad economy and people are losing their jobs. People are losing their homes, and everyone is trying to hold on to their money. Along with this problem, there exists the issue of what it costs to buy quality amateur equipment and then there is having to deal with any antenna restrictions. There are new hams who don't have antenna restrictions and have to contend with neighbors who complain to the hills about an antenna being erected before it can even become operational. I personally had to deal with some local idiots who kept calling the police and the police kept trying to tell me I had to stop operating or get arrested for som offense they couldn't even name. I explained to these coppers that amateur radio is not within their jurisdiction, but was simply told to shut up. Another problem is that the "old guard" who have an axe to grind against new amateurs due to the change in licensing requirements and other new FCC policies to go with that change which occurred back in Feb of 2007, are running new amateurs off in droves. Hazing or outright threatening behavior by hams licensed before Feb of 2007 is another reason new hams are not getting on the air. I went through this myself. A mentality has arisen that "amateur radio is only for listening and you're never supposed to transmit". Everyone wants the bands quiet and wants the next amateur to just stop operating. It was so bad in my area that I am one of several amateurs who have had their vehicle vandalized or an attempt made to remove their antenna. There are more details I could go into, but will suffice to say that amateur radio has become a very nasty place to be with other hams who want to run everyone off. This is proven by the various amateur radio internet forums...outsiders such as new hams or potential hams see what is being discussed and they see the behavior there and decide they can spend their time and money in better places on better activities. Over the past year, I have tried to introduce amateur radio to two local schools. My proposals were turned down solely because of disparaging and unbecoming behavior on part of the amateur community. The schools cited two sources: amateur radio internet forums and one incidence during which a school official bought a radio receiver, heard horrible discussions happening locally and on the HF bands, and labeled it a possible threat to the children. Another incidence happened when I forgot to turn my radio down while waiting for one of my kids to come out of school and a school official heard one of our local jammers...the school wanted nothing to do with us at that point and opted to say thanks but no thanks. Combine this with a city official who found the online amateur radio enforcement letters at the FCC site who used that to also say thank you but we aren't interested. I have been told that Digital is very neat and have been at several demonstrations. I've operated RTTY with a good friend / elmer from my club and enjoy it immensely! Let's all examine the named factors now that I have put them out here and try to work with whatever we have left of a good public image. There has to be a way for us to find some redeeming quality in spite of the bad behavior of our ranks. --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Glenn L. Roeser wrote: From: Glenn L. Roeser Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 10:48 AM Gary, I think that it is a very good idea. I would surely go into the Novice sub-bands to work them. I for one see the Digital Modes as the future of Amateur Radio. As the Digital Modes become more popular we are also going to need more bandwidth. That will be something to think about as well. Very 73 to all, Glenn (WB2LMV) From: Gary To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 12:55:14 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Gary, I think that it is a very good idea. I would surely go into the Novice sub-bands to work them. I for one see the Digital Modes as the future of Amateur Radio. As the Digital Modes become more popular we are also going to need more bandwidth. That will be something to think about as well. Very 73 to all, Glenn (WB2LMV) From: Gary To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 12:55:14 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
At 11:55 AM 12/15/2009, you wrote in part: >So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class >licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands. No.
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
Sounds like an excellent idea to me, to get them involved in digital modes. I do not, however suggest it be within the CW bands. And keep them limited to less than 50 or at most 100 watts. Other than RTTY, I see no reason whatsoever to run that much power on PSK etc. Todays rigs easily are adjustable upward from 5 or so watts, so it is no problem to limit power to less than full output. I thought getting rid of Novice, was the worst (or maybe second worst) thing that the FCC ever did. We have always had a problem getting new ops to purchase equipment and get on the air. In the Novice days, and because they had actually worked at getting the ticket, I would have estimated that 90 percent or more got on the air. I never heard it was now anything like 10 percent though, and that would be terrible if it is that wide spread across the board. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB All 2 years or more (except Novice). Short stints at: DA/PA/SU/HZ/7X/DU CR9/7Y/KH7/5A/GW/GM/F Pls QSL direct, buro, or LOTW preferred, I Do not use, but as a courtesy do upload to eQSL for those who do. Moderator DXandTALK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk Digital_modes http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digital_modes/?yguid=341090159 - Original Message - From: Gary To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:55 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
On Tuesday 15 December 2009 12:55:14 Gary wrote: > I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: > > With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 > meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio > operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our > Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting > with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but > for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. > > We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a > transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less > than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good > turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on > the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting > very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. > > Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF > bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as > there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time > of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was > common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least > theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. > > So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class > licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you > think that would be of interest to new hams? > > I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a > maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There > may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is > a starting point for discussion. > > Your thoughts? > > Gary - N0GW > > > > Correct me if I am wrong here, but Technicians have digital privliges on 10 meters from 28.000MHz to 28.500MHz already. As for 15, 40 and 80 meters, they have CW only for about 100khz range on each band. I have never had a problem finding someone to chat on 10 meters for the past year even with the sunspots as low as they are. I have even heard activity in PSK and other modes not counting the Propnet group. Granted, I only get a chance to play below 30MHz right now about three times a month from a club station about thirty miles away from my home. But i seem to be listening or calling CQ at the right time also...:) If this is to discuss about 'amending' Part 97, I would be for it. I would like to see a portion of 160 meters added also. I usually hear about ten to fifteen stations operating there during the week and plenty more during contests to get away from the congestion. As for power restrictions, I would say max about 200 watts. Baud rate I would not even consider unless your doing Packet which already has a limit set for HF usage. Another suggestion here is to introduce the newly licensed operater to interfacing a computer to an HF radio and doing CW that way. I have had a few very nice QSOs with other operators that way. Thats my way of seeing if I have my interface and computer hooked up correctly. James W8ISS
Re: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
I think it is a bad idea. With the way licensing has already been simplified, anyone with a technician license can easily just go get a General. From: Gary Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:55:14 - To: Subject: [digitalradio] Techs on HF digital I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
[digitalradio] Techs on HF digital
I thought I'd run something up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes: With the currently extended low sunspot cycle reducing the occurrence of 10 meter openings to near zero, there is little to offer new hams for radio operating opportunities besides VHF FM. Many of the people who attend our Technician license classes are interested in doing much more than chatting with the local guys on a local repeater. Sure, VHF SSB is a possibility but for us rural folks, even that provides slim pickings for distant contacts. We are seeing a very low percentage of newly licensed people ever buying a transceiver and getting on the air. We are estimating that number to be less than 10%. Other clubs in our area are experiencing the same problem: good turn out for classes and lots of licenses issued but few new hams getting on the air. It may be that VHF FM is not a viable stepping stone to getting very many new folks active in Amateur Radio. Being an old fart, I naturally began as a novice operating CW on the HF bands. Finding other stations to make contact with was never a problem as there was always activity on either 40 or 80 meters, depending upon the time of day. Making contact with other stations hundreds of miles away was common. While that same opportunity is available today, at least theoretically, CW operation is not part of a new ham's skill set. So... Here is the idea. Would you be amenable to allowing Technician Class licensees to operate digital modes in the Technician CW bands and do you think that would be of interest to new hams? I would imagine, the license limitations would have to state something like a maximum of 300 baud and 500 Hz bandwidth with a 200 watt power limit. There may be other limitations that might be nice to toss into the mix but this is a starting point for discussion. Your thoughts? Gary - N0GW
