Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Forums Proposal

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

Am 08.10.2012 19:10 schrieb Marc Paré:
> Le 2012-10-08 12:11, Joel Madero a écrit :
>> On 10/08/2012 03:14 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

.. following this discussion and chiming in (too) late :o))

[.. bg snip of many good points ..]

> If we consider this, and base our decision, less on an emotional
> response, but on the desire to attract new contributors, we should
> offer potential contributors a door into our contributor-world.

I'm really amazed, how this discussion went forward finally hitting the
nail (instead of the thumb..).

Thanks Marc and all for doing a great job fostering our community!

[.. more good points ..]

Gruß/regards
from LibreOffice Conference

Gruß/regards

Gruß/regards
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Re: [board-discuss] Work to be done by TDF officers

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Am 19.09.2012 11:32 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> On Tue, 2012-09-18 at 22:10 +0200, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> I'm not against having paid officers in general, but they should do meta
>> tasks, i.e. rather looking for people doing necessary work - for example
>> by poking sponsors to provide manpower than doing the work themselves.

>   I'm not sure this model generally works so well :-) Sponsors are not
> lacking tasks of their own and tend to value the ability to direct their
> own resources: that's why they pay them. Having said that I think you
> capture something really important:

>   If we contract anyone it is critical to ensure that they are someone
> who works well with, and is a respected part of the community. Currently
> we have plenty of people full-time on the code who (I hope) work in that
> capacity: they do some of the less sexy work to allow volunteers to do
> the bits they love best, they help mentor people and empower them and so
> on - presumably that pattern can work elsewhere too ?

Maybe I was not clear: I talk of what *TDF* pays for. I'm happy
community work having done by paid people, paid by external resources as
You describe.

>   For example - we're contracting Tollef currently to do some bugzilla
> administration around freedesktop: he's the existing sysadmin in that
> space, is widely respected and is doing a great job: my hope is that
> that is not too controversial a pattern :-)

Who is "we"? SuSE, TDF?

>   Aside from that, we have a ton of un-met administrative needs that go
> far beyond system administration: you point out one: fund-raising, there
> is a lot more detail around the board that requires significant
> investments of time to get right - and these tend to fall through the
> cracks.

Couldn't agree more! The boards intention though is to contract an
*infrastructure* officer. Btw.: wasn't me pointing out the fund-raising
issue ;o)).

>   Anyhow - it's great to hear about the good work you're doing in the
> admin team, that sounds really encouraging, and is much appreciated. 

Thanks for the flowers! Generously waving the honey spoon is a nice
gesture ;o))

regards

Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Am 12.08.2012 18:26 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have
> changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).

> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
> automatically sent directly to the list.

> In the past, this lead to two major problems:

[.. pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]

> Therefore, I have applied a change:

[.. more pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]

> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting,
> and again, I beg for your understanding.

we already discussed that October til December 2011:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433
kind of resume by me:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7495

I noticed several people objecting against that change, each having "man
years" of commuinity work on their backs.

So this is a good point to hook in:
How do we handle changes affecting hundreds or even thousands of
community members?

Three questions from my side:
 - what was the final push to do this change *right now*?
 - what were the thoughts to do the change *this way*?
 - what was the criteria of balancing the effects between change and no
   change (not the ones *this* behaviour or *that* behaviour)?

> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of
> you is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list
> or not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
> immediately switch back to the old behaviour.

I still can't see the problem this "test" should solve, which wouldn't
need additional work on, to be solved reliably.

> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
> somehow sitting between two chairs here.

Stop doing things You're sorry about. ;o))


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Mail Merge to Email in Writer

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Gordon, *,

> On 13/04/2012 12:46, Marc-André Laverdière wrote:

>> One of the concerns I have, though, is in terms of usability... would
>> asking the default mail client to handle thousands of emails make the
>> client freeze? Would it be automated nicely, so that the user doesn't
>> have to click on 'send' until their fingers fall off?

Or what about users doing their email via web account only?

>> I don't have the answer to those questions... I am just giving my two
>> cents.

> I don't think that's going to be a problem - anyone who is sending
> that sort of bulk email is going to be using a commercial bulk email
> program

That sounds as if You are an expert on how to remote control an
arbitrary mail client. Is there a standardized api for that?

To solve Your problem of having records: how about putting yourself into
BCC? This is what basically does your mail client for the local copy.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Conference Management System

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Andreas, *,


> first excuse me for crossposting, but I want to get more volunteers
> aware of this topic and involved in it.

Please don't ask for apology doing a mistake - just do better ;o)).

If You think, exactly the same information is required on two lists,
then send two identical mails, but avoid having two recipients in one,
i.e. resend the mail to the second list in question. This way the
threads on each list stay clean instead of beeing incompletely mixed
through people spitting out "reply to all" on every listmail reply.

> The follow up discussion should be on the website mailing list.

To achive this I consider it a better solution to send a "heads up"
mail to this list, containing the link to the archived initial mail -
ideally containing one descriptive sentence obout the subject.
Thus it's You who provide the means to have your intention fullfilled.
;o))

Both ways in summary save lots of valuable volonteer's time, which can
be contributed in a more effective way.

[..]

> create and use a conference management tool for all the work
> around the conference. 

[..]

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Pedro, *,


Am 22.01.2012 13:43 schrieb Pedro:

[..]

> I just think it that it doesn't make sense to change things that users
> rely on just because you can.

+1


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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

first of all I agree with the statement of Uwe..

Am 15.12.2011 00:41 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-14 23:56:

>> So go ahead! Enjoy the impact You might cause. Enjoy counting corpses.

> Corpse's Bride is a nice movie, but I guess you are not talking about
> it. ;-)

definitely not - I'm not a cineast, don't like that kind of movie and
never saw it :o))

> So, my point is the following:

> - I have people strongly asking for disabling reply-to mangling, e.g. on
> the website list.

Which shows: having this discussion split didn't help much, as this
support is missing here. Where were all those poking You, to assist
while You were advocating *their* request?

> - I have people strongly asking for leaving reply-to mangling as is.
> - So, whatever I do, someone will be upset.

:o))

> - I myself would like to keep reply-to mangling as is, as I have set it
> up for good reasons.

As Uwe told, this is the escape for You. You're a volunteer, why should
You do anything you're not convinced of and where additionally no broad
support is shown.

As well the proposal of Charles (Tanstaafl) of having a choice
while subscribing is worth considering. Maybe there is a possibility to
have a further subscribing mode with mlmmj. If possible, this might be
not ideal, but should be no problem for a dev mind. But this is nothing
to be in effect within days.

The good news: Since the beginning there is a volunteer from the admin
team, happy to solve the issue. Not withdrawing his offer (well,
thinking several times about it).

- it's me! :o)) I'm in favor of switching off reply-to mangling, but
without hurting valueable contributors, we urgently need.

As I'm tired now, I'll stress that more in a (near ;o))) future mail and
as well the following questions.

Apart of the subject of this thread, my answer on Michaels Mail
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7522
(The part after bashing You ;o)) might give a rough draft about my plan.

And yes, this will need time and work, and yes, I'm aware we're
suffering from missing contributions by people not pleased with the
current setting. And finally: No, we cannot afford to loose recent
contributors, upset by a change they don't support nor understand.

[.. more questions to be answered later ..]

Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Am 12.12.2011 14:41 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-11 15:22:

>> So well, I've some questions:
>> - What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one?
>> - What are the criteria making this test successful or fail?

> nothing,

.. means leave me alone?

> but we have been discussing for weeks now,

No discussion - vaporizing comments instead, You did not care nor
comment a single one.

> and I would like to test out the impact of reply-to mangling. 

Switch off reply-to mangling?

Regarding testing out the impact of that change: I'll try once more:

If You want to know the impact of your house burning down, there are two
possibilities:

- I tell you the impact of burning down your house
- I show you the impact of burning down your house

If I tell you the impact of burning down your house you can imagine.
If I show you the impact of burning down your house you can see.

Same thing about knowing the impact of changing the behaviour of the
mailinglists.

As You play with the motivation of volunteers, how do you evaluate the
result of "test out the impact"? Do you count the corpses i.e. the lost
volunteers?

The way You want to go, is one where you can't win. The best case is, no
damage is visible, which does not mean it doesn't happen. All other
cases make things go worse.

Btw. I still don't know about Your motivation on this. You didn't tell a
single word about.

If I think of games affecting volunteer's motivation I think of games I
can win only and the worst case is, that things don't change. But this
is my personal preference. From what I read, Your's appear to be
different. I tried to describe my vision on how to do - but I dropped
hope to get it recognized by You. My offer is still valid, for what it
is worth however.

> Really, it's been now eight weeks (!) that has been in the queue at
> least,

If this eight weeks were ones delaying a mistake they were good ones.

> so... let's do it and try it out.

So go ahead! Enjoy the impact You might cause. Enjoy counting corpses.


Gruß/regards
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Am 06.12.2011 09:40 schrieb Michael Meeks:

[..]

>> Anyways, which lists would you like to start trying it on?

>   The one I'd like to interact with from time to time & don't is the
> website list :-) but I'd expect the same noise there ...
   ^[1]

>> IMHO that causes lots of problem. I see myself purging files from the 
>> archive because people did not know they were posting in public.

>   Grief, does anyone provide an embarrassing mail removal service ? if
^[1]
> so, I'd like to use it ;-)

[1] I personally don't consider this way of estimating other
contributors contributions, one forwoarding a successful and happy
community..

[..]

>   And of course; I'm a proponent of not mangling Reply-To: on lists, not
> to annoy people :-), but because I truly believe it gives the very best
> interaction experience for clueful developers arriving from the outside
> and dipping their toes in.

remember: I'm as well. And all "noise" I produce about it targets to
make this change a success ;o))

> The good idea of testing it out somewhere comes from the sysadmin
> team,

That's only partially true. In fact it was Florian coming from nowhere
doing a proposal[2], while stating at any opportunity this beeing a bad
idea(for example[4]). This makes me perceive he's not very interested
this change beeing a successful one.
[2] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220
[4]
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220/focus=254

It was me bringing this to public[3], because I'm really concerned,
even starting a test without *broad support* doing damage. Settling
broad support goes along with setting up a target, reasonable and
interesting to aim to, collecting supporters, which catch and cure the
trapped and thus keep them beeing contributors. For this task, we have
to start *where we are now* instead of *where it was nice to be*,
regardless how well or not so well we prepared this decision in the past
(by introducing this setting).
[3] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433

Everything apart, for me is kind of hidden or open vote with a looser
party and a winner party. I don't consider this a good way to go for a
community like ours.

To say it short: We've to determine the nail we all want to hit. If we
don't so, we'll continue to hit thumbs. :o))

> and it seems we're iterating towards a consensus that the discuss list
> is perhaps not the best place to start before any change took place
> ;-)

Well I don`t see what this list makes less suitable for that "test" than
any other (including website).

Questions about test criteria as answer on Florian's Mail:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7514

>   HTH,

.. not much regarding my concerns of a failure of this "test".


Gruß/regards


Gruß/regards

Gruß/regards

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Am 09.12.2011 12:07 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> I like your idea to use the website list however, since people there are
> usually much experienced in using technology and e-mail.

> So, what do others think about that? Disabling reply-to mangling (after
> announcement) on the website list for a while and see the results?

So well, I've some questions:
- What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one?
- What are the criteria making this test successful or fail?


Gruß/regards

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [resume] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

Am 23.11.2011 23:45 schrieb Friedrich Strohmaier:

> After getting reports about serious issues hindering efficient mail
> communication through the recent practiced "reply-to mangling" on our
> mailing lists, we from tech team are going for a test setup, switching
> it off for one - most likely this one.
> We expect to grow our wisdom about the upcoming effects. :o))

This happened already without doing any real test. :o))

As there was no substantial support for this concern - at least no
*visible* one - and even Florian, the one promoting the issue, didn't
consider it a good thing (where I don't understand, why he's promoting
it) I propose *to stop it* for now.

[..]

> I notice a lack of overall comunication style agreement within our
> beloved project and if I remember correctly some more people do as well.

> I thought about to advance Italo's great compilation of posting style
> guidelines http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette towards a
> "7 golden rules making it a pleasure to read your mail" style guideline
> flanked by an "adopter's" page where people can out themselves as
> adopters and supporters of that guidelines.

I consider those points still valid, but put them back as for the moment
I don't have enough resources available to do it alone.

[..]

Gruß/regards
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Am 02.12.2011 18:45 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-02 18:42:

>> The question is, where to go regarding communication style.
>> reply-to mangling hereby is*one*  thing to look at.

> just today, one of our admins replied again directly only to me. If I
> didn't spot this, and replied again to the list, the valueable
> information he posted would have been lost forever...

Well, if You speak of lost contributions, You may consider also those
thought, but finally not contributed. Whoever hit that trap:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7271
might probably think scary where to post, and where not.

To make a long story short: I'd like to see that kind of issues handled
different from "my reasons are more reasonable therefore I've to win the
battle" - rather in a community way instead.

The way You did it shows us: You *did* spot it and it was not lost
forever! ;o))


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-tomangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Harold, *,

Am 30.11.2011 11:59 schrieb Harold Fuchs:

> I think the idea that a simple "Reply" should only go the OP is very poor:

Thanks for uncovering other contributor's real nature, who have
different opinion|experience.

Great to see You're not affected..

> 1. People will not be able to see whether or not a question has been
> answered, or if it has been answered "well".
> 2. People who didn't ask the question might nevertheless be interested
> in [some aspect(s) of] the answer but they won't get it.
> 3. Many of the people who ask questions are not technically familiar
> with the intricacies of e-mail. Thus, if they have a follow up to an
> answer and just hit Reply (which they will because they don't know
> "better"), that follow up will *only* go to the person who responded to
> the original question instead of to the list.
> 4. In general the scheme will proliferate "private" conversations which
> is the exact opposite of the intention behind using a list.
> 5. If you want this sort of behaviour, use a *forum* where the
> questioner can "subscribe" to only his/her question threads

You describe a scenario of people with zero experience in mailinglist
discussion. These definitely are a minority, where a significant part of
is willing to learn how to do well. As mentioned earlier: technical
reply issues are *one* of several things to learn to handle.

> Perhaps for "expert" groups like Dev, the idea *might* be OK

Things to learn to reply in a useful way, don't require expert skills.
Ideally its a matter of learning a handful *simple* rules, to handle
*all* situations.

> but for the lists designed for general support I really don't think it
> is sensible.

If You define "providing advice for people not related to the project
work" as "general support" You're right. But there are many community
people who already expressed their opinion, mailinglists not being the
best choice for that - I'm one of those ;o)).


Gruß/regards
-- 
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Melchingen/Germany ;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Am 30.11.2011 09:31 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> NoOp wrote on 2011-11-30 05:02:

[..]

>> Better yet, try it on the dev list as this seems to be where the request
>> is originating from.

> That change is already in effect on the dev list, but I think it's not
> comparable to other lists at LibO. :)

Depends, *what* You compare.

Regarding traffic it's one of the most active lists -
yes: not comparable to any tdf list.

Information is provided continuously in a very (high volume) reader
friendly fashion -
yes: not comparable to any tdf list.

But in my eyes that's not the question.

The question is, where to go regarding communication style.
reply-to mangling hereby is *one* thing to look at.


Gruß/regards
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Regina, *,

Am 30.11.2011 16:53 schrieb Regina Henschel:
> Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb:

> [..]

>> No. This can happen if accidently a poster uses "reply to all" instead
>> of "reply-to-list", without trimming the posters address.

> I use Seamonkey and there I see nothing like "reply-to-list", there is
> only (1)"Antwort auf dieses Nachricht" and (2)"Antwort an Absender and
> alle Empfänger".
> (1) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and to "from" in the other cases.
> (2) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and CC "from" and other CCs,
> or if "reply-to" is not set to "from" and CC other CCs.

> So how to "reply-to-list"?

If I recall well, there was an addon - at least for thunderbird in early
days. But couldn't find somesuch during a quick search.

As I don't use Seamonkey, I don't know if and where this funktion
exists. The oldstyle Netscape/Thunderbird way was to use reply-to-all
and trim the posters address.

Maybe someone else can help.

By the way: Adding information like that, was one part of my intention
to improve the communication style info.


Given $my_cool_software=Thunderbird;

With $my_cool_software "reply-to-list" is offered for each mail
containing a "list-post" -header so Your problem is solved if You just
use $my_cool_software.

;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi NoOp, *,

Am 30.11.2011 04:50 schrieb NoOp:
> On 11/28/2011 08:23 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:

[..]

>>  * make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get
>>replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of
>>operations.

>>  Where by a long list of operations, I mean, that in order to get a
>> reply to your mail/question, first you need to:

[.. trimmed the referenced paragraph ..]

> You've obviously never spent time on the OOo user & discuss lists...

[.. bad experience with above use case ..]

> I subscribe to over 80 lists (via gmane.org)

Using a nntp-client You are not affected by the change..

> and respond regularly to 10-15 daily. Were I required to adjust my
> standard 'Reply' to specifically reply to the list rather than the
> individual poster I'd have to make major modifications to my client
> (SeaMonkey).

Would You consider to do that change if You knew making life easier for
*many* community co-members by doing so?

Anyways - You don't have to ;o))

> I view and respond to a list, not to individual posters.

There are so many pro and cons regarding that, how about having it most
easy *for both sides* to follow their believing?

> Further, the changes that you are requesting (if I understand them
> correctly)

You probably don't.. The change in question only concerns reverting
the setting of the "reply-to: $list" header added by the mailinglist
software to each message sent.

> would mean that I'd then have an additional, direct email in
> my inbox from each list poster when I've specifically chosen to view &
> respond via an nntp source (gmane.org) rather than list email.

No. This can happen if accidently a poster uses "reply to all" instead
of "reply-to-list", without trimming the posters address.

> Your request now places the burden on each list user to make changes
> in order to avoid responding to the list poster and instead reply to
> the list in general.

No. Only those using "reply" instead of "reply-to-list" have to change
their habits (which admittedly might cause some annoyance during the
changing period).

[.. general mailinglist access proposal ..]

> If you wish to reply to each poster individually, then perhaps you can
> modify Evolution 3.0.2 to conform to Reply and 'Reply All' to suit your
> requirements.

Thats the reason the change will be done: Make Your mail software work
how it's intended to work, regardless which one.

> -1

Wrong assumption?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

thanks for describing a scenario, where reply-to mangling hurts..

Am 28.11.2011 17:23 schrieb Michael Meeks:

[..]

>   * make it easy for established list users to avoid having to
> think whom they want to reply to, and needing to press
> ctrl-shift-r vs. ctrl-r (or whatever)
> or
>   * make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get
> replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of
> operations.

or boil it down to: keep it simple (KISS). That does not necessarily
mean: serve each one's habits (which is known *not* to be a simple thing
;o)) ).

The most simple thing is to offer email as the plain information medium
and let the sender and recipient handle the rest.

Since starting this thread my approach is to improve the  way to give
advice, how to do so in a convenient fashion.

"reply-to" is intended a means for the sender to decide where she wants
the answer to be sent. To set it from a central place requires asking
*every* member for approval to not disregard the posters freedom of
choice to do so.

The clean solution for a mailing list then was to provide the choice for
each poster, whether she wants reply-to: $list set for the mails sent to
her. We don't have this possibility for now, but maybe we have some day.
(well, then the question rises whether it continues to be simple) ;o)).

This topic (is|was) causing discussions over discussions because people
try to rise weigth of their annoyance's degree by calling numbers or
argueing about "in general" or "logical" expected behaviour.

My assumption is: it was introduced, because it's a cheap cheat for the
administrator to get rid of grief, kind of "this is not a behaviour I'm
used to" whatever this was wrapped in.

The question now is how to handle that situation. Should we consider to
go the KISS way - not only with this issue but rather with other
decisions within the project as well?

And again: anyone interested in joining to improve the source of advice?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Stefan, *,

I am bit cautious not to sound offensive because this issue is kind of
religious ;o))

Am 26.11.2011 09:06 schrieb Stefan Weigel:
> Am 23.11.2011 23:45, schrieb Friedrich Strohmaier:

>> After getting reports about serious issues hindering efficient mail
>> communication through the recent practiced "reply-to mangling" on our
>> mailing lists, we from tech team are going for a test setup, switching
>> it off for one - most likely this one.
>> We expect to grow our wisdom about the upcoming effects. :o))

> There sure will be effects. But it is not sure, that we will
> recognize the effects here on the list.

> I am subscribed to some mailing lists, that do not modify the
> reply-to header. Communication on these lists usually looks like this:

> * u...@domain.tld sends a question to mailingl...@community.org

> * Other subscribers send their reply to u...@domain.tld.

> * On the list, it looks like if there were no answers at all.

Well, "usually" is a big word here. Looking at our developers list
(libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org) those kind of problems don't seem to
exist. I don't have numbers, but I think some 200 to 300 subscribers
might be reasonable. It's high traffic and after my observations has
very low rate of posting style issues making reading a pain as are full
quote, top posting, ..

> * The poster of the question does get some answers, but does not
> realize, that she is the only one, who received them.

So you claim reply-to mangling beeing the only or most apropriate means
to solve the above mentioned problem. Do I get that correct?

Remember: I asked for help to make it easier to get useful advice how to
contribute mailinglist discussions in a useful way. ;o))

> When you do this test, how will you find out, how often someone sent
> an answer to the user accidentally, instead of sending it to the list?

One way could be, make people aware that issue and encourage them to
report about.  ;o))

More from my part later on tomorrow. My computer is now required as
movie display ;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

Am 23.11.2011 23:45 schrieb Friedrich Strohmaier:

[..]

> I thought about to advance Italo's great compilation of posting style
> guidelines http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette towards a
> "7 golden rules making it a pleasure to read your mail" style guideline
> flanked by an "adopter's" page where people can out themselves as
> adopters and supporters of that guidelines.

> So I'm here to ask, whether there is someone out there who would
> actively colaborate with me, to set up such thing.

[..]

I missed to post the discussion on the moderators list, which my request
is based on:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220

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[tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi folks,

After getting reports about serious issues hindering efficient mail
communication through the recent practiced "reply-to mangling" on our
mailing lists, we from tech team are going for a test setup, switching
it off for one - most likely this one.
We expect to grow our wisdom about the upcoming effects. :o))

For those who don't know I've put a sentence at the bottom of this
mail[1] describing "reply-to mangling".

As this is kind of an UI-change (hint, hint.. :o)), we surely will hit
one's or the other's foot. So I think it's a good idea to have this
action well prepared ;o))

I notice a lack of overall comunication style agreement within our
beloved project and if I remember correctly some more people do as well.

I thought about to advance Italo's great compilation of posting style
guidelines http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette towards a
"7 golden rules making it a pleasure to read your mail" style guideline
flanked by an "adopter's" page where people can out themselves as
adopters and supporters of that guidelines.

So I'm here to ask, whether there is someone out there who would
actively colaborate with me, to set up such thing.


[1]reply-to mangling means: The header of each list mail gets
the "reply-to" header set to the mail adress of the mailinglist in
question. While this for the first glance seems to be a convenience
service ("plain" answers are addressed to the list instead of the poster
by the mail client) there are serious drawbacks in other areas (one of
those: "reply to all" doesn't do what it is promising).



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Linux tests required: Bug 40362 - VIEWING: HANG in presentation mode showing animated GIFs

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Rainer, *,


Am 16.11.2011 09:25 schrieb Rainer Bielefeld:

> currently it would be interesting to find out why presentations with
> animated gifs crash for some (Linux-(?)) users. Can you try attachents
> from  and leave a
> short comment 8crash of no crash)?

No Crash

LibreOffice 3.4  340m1(Build:402)

(outdated) Ubuntu 7.10

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi NoOp, *,

I appreciate Your initiative..

Am 08.09.2011 02:16 schrieb NoOp:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

Those who insist, won't consider. I think it's a good Idea to provide
those with kind of guidance or recommendation who don`t know better, and
want to express their respect to the attention the audience invests in
their request.

[..]

> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either,

You ore someone else are warmly invited to change this. I hacked it
together after nobody wanted to volunteer, when I setup that footer
entries. So doing the footer thing brought me more work which could have
been done from someone else with no special permissions and skills. It
*intionally* is a wiki site. ;o))

[..]

> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
>  page with complete
> posting guidelines.

+1 on that

> Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

I think this is not a matter of conensus but more kind of
recommendation, how to save the readers effort to catch the message and
use the time saved to give useful comments. ;o))

> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most.

definitly.

> So there may be some cross posting in replies.

No "genuine" crossposting so at least consistent threads per mailing
list. The better lazy way :o))

Regarding the "learn to quote" and similar posting guidelines of that kind:
They are collected experience of efficient mail/newsgroup communication
over a long time - nothing more and nothing less.

Long stories could be told about this topic - I try to make it short:

As one reading a high number of mails a day and one having project
experience (since 2003 OOo membership included) enabling me to give
answers at many places, I mostly skip mails which show me the poster
doesn't worry about my time and effort reading his post. So I rise my
daily range about 50 mails, reading and responding the ones of those
writers which show respect to my effort.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] [OT] Pasta Recipes

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Italo, *,

Am 05.09.2011 10:23 schrieb Italo Vignoli:
> Recipes of pasta hacked in Munich are now online:

> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest2011#Pasta_Recipes

Can confirm:
The results kick(ed) off even non code hackers :o))

Thanks for Your great hack!


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[tdf-discuss] Copyleft vs. "more permissive" (was: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi BRM, *,

BRM schrieb:
> From: plino 

[..]

> Even the GPL does not provide that right. If a company wanted it could
> take a GPL product, make whatever changes it wanted, and distribute
> it internally to itself without ever contributing back to the
> community as a whole.

True. Anyone using it for his own can do so.

> Likewise, it could also distribute that same project to its customers,
> making the source available to them and them alone.

True, they even can demand a fee for it.

> The community will may never see any changes from them; yet that is
> perfectly valid under all Open Source licenses - even the GPL.

Not true. If one of those customers goes ahead and publishes the source
code, that company can't forbid. This is covered by the GPL. That means:
If IBM put copyleft code (LGPL/GPL) in symphony then I could by a copy,
require the source code and publish it.

> Nothing forces people to work with the community. No license can do
> that.

right, but Your example lacks the point I told.

> So please do yourself a favor and put that notion - the myth -
> aside.

50% myth remaining ;o)).

[..]

> they only have to provide the source (in that case) to the end-users
> _upon request_ for up to 3 years for each version they release from
> the time they make the "sale". (See the GPL license.)

Which is enough time to get it, even if donations have to be collected
;o))

>> Under the Apache  license any company can take your code, fix it and
>> say: "Hey, this function  in the open source version doesn't work. I
>> just spend a day fixing it  (instead of  months to write it from
>> scratch). Why don't you buy mine  which works?"

> They can do that under the GPL too.

But we can get it back then. Thats a notable difference ;o))


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Allen, *,

Allen Pulsifer schrieb:

> On that point, let me be clear: There are
> millions of potential users for OOo, LO, and open document formats. 
> Many of those potential users work in companies, government agencies
> and other organizations that routinely trust Microsoft, Oracle, IBM
> and other large corporations to meet their IT needs.  Getting in a
> public spat with any of those companies does not help the project in
> the least, it only hurts it.  End users do not care about who's
> right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc.  They
> just care about products and technologies that are going to meet
> their needs.

Well, for a healthy community not *only* happy end users are an essetial
ingredient as aren't *only* happy coders.

If it isn't possible to achive having all parts of the community happy
and that way satisfying a significant range of end users (which I also
count as part of it) then we definitly should rethink the questions: who
are we? Where do we go?

> For many users, the best thing OOo had going for it was
> that it was backed by Sun and there was a commercial version users
> they could turn to if they needed support, etc. 

Did You ask some of them about the degree of happyness with the results.
I'd be interested to read positive feedback regarding this (preferably
big numbers!).

> Now that Oracle has pulled out, that is gone and TdF cannot replace
> it.  Regardless of individual feelings, the best the TdF and its
> members could do at this point would be to put on a smiling face,
> magnanimously congratulate the ASF for joining the community, and at
> least make it look like they were working closely with IBM to bring
> the best possible open document technologies to the world.  If most or
> almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache OpenOffice
> project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the rift, that
> would only be good for LO and the TdF.  The best time to do that is
> now.

Simply don't agree - as of having bad *experience* regarding a big
company beeing bad balanced power community member.

I notice Your claims beeing questions of faith packed as facts and put
mine at the opposite side. So 1:1 ;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] OCA vs. ICLA: two names - one thing?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Greg, *,

sorry, forgot to post links..

Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb:

> I pull this in a new thread, as it is basic for understanding the
> difference between OCA and ICLA.

> Greg Stein schrieb:

> [..]

>> Let's also not forget that neither TDF nor the ASF require copyright
>> assignment. The copyright remains with the contributor.

> Same thing with OCA. You don't/didn't "sell" your copy right instead
> it was shared.

see here:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Joint_Copyright_Assignment
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Oracle_Contributor_Agreement
http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/faq-licensing.html#usinglicenses
http://www.openoffice.org/licenses/oca.pdf

[..]

sorry for avoidable noise..

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[tdf-discuss] OCA vs. ICLA: two names - one thing? (was: Triple licensing?)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Greg, *,

I pull this in a new thread, as it is basic for understanding the
difference between OCA and ICLA.

Greg Stein schrieb:

[..]

> Let's also not forget that neither TDF nor the ASF require copyright
> assignment. The copyright remains with the contributor.

Same thing with OCA. You don't/didn't "sell" your copy right instead it
was shared.

> Thus, the patch can be offered to the TDF under its suggested
> LGPLv3/MPL combination, and offered separately to the ASF under an
> ALv2 license(*).

I don't see the basical difference between OCA and ICLA here.

Of course I see the difference between Oracle as a commercial company
and Apache Software Foundation as a charity. :o))

[..]

> (*) strictly speaking, you do not offer code to the ASF under any
> specific license. your ICLA grants the ASF a right to release your
> code under a license of its choosing.

which is basically the same Oracle can do with contributions granted
under terms of OCA.

By the way: If this topic already was discussed elsewhere I appreciate
an archive link.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Interesting

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Italo, *,

thanks for the pointers.

Italo Vignoli schrieb:

This - sorry - is hot air:
>Brian Proffitt
>http://www.itworld.com/software/172393/plea-save-openofficeorg-apache

This one saves me much time writing my summary after digging the
incubator mails:
>mentioning http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=2567

[..]

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Oracle contributes OOo Code to Apache Software Foundation'sIncubator

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Augustine, *,

Augustine Souza schrieb:

>On 6/3/11, Harold Fuchs  wrote:
>...

[.. nonsense ..]

>Nonsense.

[.. nonsense ..]

>More nonsense.

Thanks :o))

SCNR

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[tdf-discuss] common effort: creating replacement for Oracle Report Builder

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

started a thread on projects mailinglist

[libreoffice-projects] common effort: creating replacement for Oracle 
Report Builder
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.projects/192

 Quote: =
I examined the capabilities of writer and found many of the requirements
for report generation already present there.

So I'd propose to have a look by all interested on this topic, whether
it is feasible to create a report generating tool based on writer (or
calc?) extention(s) or template(s).
/Quote ==

Anyone interested in this task or topic might subscribe the projects
mailinglist[1] or discuss here. 

[1]
projects+h...@libreoffice.org sends You more information about that.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mailing List FAQ

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi NoOp, *,

NoOp schrieb:

> On 05/24/2011 11:43 PM, Volker Merschmann wrote:
>> 2011/5/25 NoOp  :

>>> Is there one?

>>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
>>> doesn't show or refer to one.

>> The german wiki page
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists/de has some
>> additions and links for that. Maybe somebody should translate that
>> to the english page.

> I suppose. But that page is on
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists/ so even if
> translated and cleaned up wouldn't suffice.

But if done it wasn't that difficult to link to?

> The place for such a FAQ should be on
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ and apply to all
> locales.

In my opinion the place of such a FAQ should be at a place easy to find
and to point at..

> And then once finalised/finalized should be posted in each mail list
> on a monthly basis so that list users are aware of
> etiquette/action/cooperation on the lists. This used to be common
> practice for mail lists in the past & helped resolve unnecessary posts
> regarding posting styles[1], etc.

The problem - as seen also in this thread[1] - is that people don't mind 
to
read just for reading and thus these pointers don't help much. Instead
they - or at least some - do if pointed there in case of ineffective
communication style.

[1]
As You might have noticed, about 8 weeks ago I added a new line at the
footer of each english language mailing list:

Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

So it's easy for each mailing list member to point to suitable
information if needed. No research in bookmarks or web. Just look (and
point as I do here) at the footer of the mail.

I choose to create that wikipage because no one was able or willing to
show me a appropriate place to link to. The wikipage makes it easy for
everyone to put in suitable text or links to complete information and
makes it easy to link from anywhere to recent information as well.

Please forgive me the poor content. Feel free to rise information and
cultural level. ;o))

> It's pretty hard to condem someone for top-posting, going way of
> topic, discussing religion, et al if there isn't a FAQ or some form
> of common guideline for user behaviour in the mail lists.

Right - therefore my effort.

[..]

> That said, here is a question; how can a common user be expected to
> possibly find http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists/
> to begin with?

Answer: Just point at the end of the mail and put the information You'd
expect at that target - done.

So: Good news. :o))

> I see no link on
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ do you?

maybe soon??

> [1]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

.. missing up to now - coming soon??


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Comparison of LO and OO downloads for a non-English language

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Henri, *,

M Henri Day schrieb:
> 2011/5/28 Stefan Weigel 
>> Am 28.05.2011 19:44, schrieb M Henri Day:

>>> If the respective helppacks and langpacks can be included in stable
>>> versions of OO for non-English languages, I fail to understand why
>>> the same thing cannot be done for LO versions.  But perhaps I am
>>> missing something here ?...

>> As far as I know, it´s an issue of data volume on the download
>> servers.

>> Stefan

> Which, no doubt, is an question of money.

If I got it right it's more a matter of time. The builds are created on
the developers machines and then uploaded for distribution. As well
building all that packages containing the base package again and again
and further upload them, slow down the release process heavily. 

> Thanks, Stefan, that
> explains it. Sometimes liberty is not that easy to seize !...

On our DVD-Image we have modified the procedure for deb installation
(DVD is repo) and as well the windows installation. Maybe this is the
way to go. Would You like to setup a swedish DVD-Image?
The environment is prepaired and as well a german version You could copy
and translate ;o))


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Re: [tdf-discuss] RC2 - no 3.4.0.x tag in help -> about libreoffice

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Andras, *,

thanks for Your answer.

Andras Timar schrieb:

> 2011/5/28 Friedrich Strohmaier :



>> LibO 3.4.0RC2 shows:
>> LibreOffice 3.4.0
>> OOO340m1 (Build:12)
[.. "tag libreoffice-3.4.0.2" missing ..]

>> which makes it more hard for the support people to define the
>> environment while giving advice or hunting bugs.

> Build:12 identifies rc2

Is there a table or other info point showing the relation
Build:12 <=> libreoffice-3.4.0.2?

;o))

Is that missing tag a regression or is it skipped intentionally for some
reason?

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[tdf-discuss] RC2 - no 3.4.0.x tag in help -> about libreoffice

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

installing LibO 3.4.0RC2 I noticed there is no tag describing the
release version.

So LibO 3.3.2 shows up:
LibreOffice 3.3.2 
OOO330m19 (Build:202)
tag libreoffice-3.3.2.2

LibO 3.4.0RC2 shows:
LibreOffice 3.4.0 
OOO340m1 (Build:12)

which makes it more hard for the support people to define the
environment while giving advice or hunting bugs.


deb packages on Kubuntu 7.10 32bit.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Problematic digest mail answering - Buggy mailclient? (was: Paid Developers)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi e-letter, *,

well, I give up. I only see tons of quoted text which doesn't help in
any way and neither get answers on my qestions nor the desired
links or information. No chance to go further.

Maybe it's an option for you to subscribe in normal mode to make some
conversation possible.

Sorry, no help possible as long I don't get the information and links I
asked for here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg06370.html
and having You subscribed at t...@documentfoundation.org in both digest
and normal mode in order to stop spamming the discuss list with garbage.
Get information on subscription process by sending a mail to: 
test+h...@documentfoundation.org which sends you a mail containing the
info.

e-letter schrieb:

>This hyperlink shows email message
> digest...http://pastebin.com/HYdu0rCz

which unfortunatly doesn't help.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Problematic digest mail answering - Buggy mailclient?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:

>A link would not show the behaviour;

Thanks for your estimation. My intention was rather to have easy access
to information of that list and to an example where Your answer really
worked.

As I spend enough time investigating Your problem
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.test
I hoped to save the time of searching myself..

>would be better to subscribe to gnuplot mailing list digest mode.

A link where to do so was really great - allthough not helpful *for me*
as I don't have gmail running and I don't intend to do so.

>When the 'reply' function is activated in gmail web-mail interface, the
>mail message format is retained.

As told, I would like to see a succesful example of an answer sent by
You if You make possible to provide a link.

By the way:
As workaround to send proper answers is "ordering" the desired mail
sending a mail to:
discuss+ge...@documentfoundation.org where "N" is the number of that
mail provided with the digest.

Additionally You're hereby invited to subscribe to 
test+subscribe-dig...@documentfoundation.org
where we try to solve Your problem. We need your experience with digest
handling and your testing skills. ;o))


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[tdf-discuss] Problematic digest mail answering - Buggy mailclient? (was: Paid Developers)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:36 PM, e-letter  wrote:

[..]

>>> When can someone improve mailing list behaviour with web mail
>>> clients like gmail???

[..]

> The problem is that replies to messages cannot be performed directly.
> This behaviour does not occur in other mailing lists, e.g. gnuplot.

can You give a link to gnuplot list archive, where it worked?


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[tdf-discuss] Digestmails answers with quotes not possible?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

especially those of You receiving mails as digest are requested to
report.

Some people reported not beeing able getting text of the mail to be
quoted in the Editor area.

e-letter reported this for gmail,
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/5360/focus=5383

I could confirm with recent Thunderbird, but not with fairly aged kmail.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.test/117

Who else has noticed alike? Just try to answer this mail if You receive
mails as digest and report.

You can report via gmane if it doesn't work out with Your mail client.

I suspect base64 encoded content of those mails isn't of taste of some
mail clients.

Thanks for helping out to narrow down the problem.

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Any wikipedia members/contributors here?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi NoOp, *,

NoOp schrieb:

[..]

>However, before updating the page, be aware of:
>
> 
[ODF format validity]
>(read the entire thread - including the 'Continue reading' bits)
>Or, try to look up the thread on:
>http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/
>(good luck with that)

Instead of the latter You can click lefthand 

"Options"
...
"Classic Gmane web interface"
...


which leads here:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.user/4599/focus=4639

This is more convenient to follow the thread - and let You answer to the
list if You want.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Problematic digest mail answering - Buggy mailclient?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Did You read the mails?

I'm in first steps to reproduce e-letters problem with answering
digest mails.

Florian Effenberger schrieb:
>Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-05-15 15.55:
>> But as long as nobody claims base64 encoded mailcontent beeing
>> improper mail handling, this is buggy behaviour of the client
>> software and should be reported as Bug to the software vendor.

>hm, seems I miss the point - what's the actual problem?

As I read in this thread and in others, answering listmails received in
digests cause problems for some mail clients. As I found out Thunderbird
is affected and gmail seems as well. I suspect it may be caused by the
base64 encoded content of that mails.

I described here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/test@documentfoundation.org/msg00118.html

You cut it from my post.

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[tdf-discuss] Problematic digest mail answering - Buggy mailclient? (was: Paid Developers)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:36 PM, e-letter  wrote:

[..]

>>> When can someone improve mailing list behaviour with web mail
>>> clients like gmail???

Well I did some testing. Might be it's a good Idea to find the reason
*before* declaring the mailing list software the culprit ;o)).

Look here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/test@documentfoundation.org/msg00118.html

>> Sorry, but what do you mean?
>> Obviously the mailinglist has no influence whatsoever how a webmail
>> or regular mailclient behaves.

> Is this true? Surely different mailing list manager software will
> function differently?

>>> Even for this e-mail digest, the reply function results
>>> in deletion of the original message content, apart from the text
>>> shown above. This means a text editor has to be used...:(

.. Which is the case anyway - even if provided by the mail client
software :o))

>> Sorry, please be more descriptive. That mail (#6131) is this one:
>> 
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg06225.html
>> http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg06096.html

> A digest message is received
> Opening the message shows all of the content
> After activating the 'reply' function, the reply text box does not
> contain the original digest message content

As written in testmails - Thunderbird also makes trouble regarding this
- 4 Year old kmail doesn't. ==> Bug??

[..]

> The problem is that replies to messages cannot be performed directly.
> This behaviour does not occur in other mailing lists, e.g. gnuplot.

So might be they provide digest mails in a gmail more digestible manner
- i.e. not base64 encoded?

But as long as nobody claims base64 encoded mailcontent beeing improper
mail handling, this is buggy behaviour of the client software and should
be reported as Bug to the software vendor.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] German Foreign Office is dropping only open source software policy

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi plino, *,

plino schrieb:

> 
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/227849/open_source_advocates_angry_at_german_govt_decision.html

> This isn't even about OpenOffice vs LibreOffice... It's about Closed
> Source vs Open Source

right..

> TBH I think it was a bad move to change radically if you have
> experienced and productive users trained on whatever program
> (regardless of the license).

agreed - but I think this wasn't the real reason.

> Also, if you need professional support you can't just move to Open
> Source, let alone a Linux distro that was still being developed...

I think this can't been estimated without viewing on the political
situation. Two Years ago FDP's Guido Westerwelle became boss of the
foreign office. The FDP (Free Domocratic Party) is known to serve a
special clientele. So shortly after the elections the sales tax for
hoteliers was lowered on the food products level (7% instead of 19%).

> Could it be that it took them 6 years to realize that?

No, it was two years to schedule the change after the change.
For me no question, who was the gostwriter of the reasoning - there is a
big company we know that kind of arguing from..



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Fwd: [Libreoffice] Returned mail: see transcript for details

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Rainer, *,

Rainer Bielefeld schrieb:

> Hello,

> from time to time I get a mail with information that my account has
> been used for SPAMming. The attached instructions "letter.zip" have
> been deleted by my email-provider (I believe with good reasons).

> Any idea what that might mean and what can be done?

That's plain spam using a subject that wants make You think, it's from a
machine.

*Do* examine the content of the attachment - ideally on Your windows 
box - to
get more information ;o)).

Maybe You examine it's header to get the IP of the sender and compare
with the one of a genuine list mail.

>  Original-Nachricht 
> Betreff: [Libreoffice] Returned mail: see transcript for details

[.. Spam ..]

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Samuel, *,

Samuel M schrieb:

> Thanks, shall I write to this list or to steering-discuss?

This list is the right place for that.

> - Ursprüngliche Message -
Von: Rainer Bielefeld 
> Samuel M schrieb:

[.. TOFU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting ..]

>> [...] Even more challenging is if you can donate money for a
>> specific issue.

> interesting Idea, but too complex to be discussed here in thi thread.
> I recommend that you open a separate thread that might pique interest
> of steering committee.


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[tdf-discuss] New technical home for http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/?? (was: Re: Forums - A Different Question)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi NoOp, *,

NoOp schrieb:
> On 04/30/2011 01:56 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Harold Fuchs wrote:

>>> Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't
>>> TDF need such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle
>>> resource?

>> I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists,
>> anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run
>> by community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include
>> LibreOffice among the supported software (see page header),

sounds great..

>> they can be used with no need for permissions from Oracle, and they
>> are probably the best place where LibreOffice users can get support
>> if they don't like mailing lists.

[..]

> Sorry, but I'd have to disagree...
> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> The resources are owned and operated by Oracle.

might be it's worth thinking to offer that resource a new (technical)
home free of fear regarding continuation of the infrastucture?? ;o))

[..]

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Pieter, *,

Pieter E. Zanstra schrieb:
> From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com]

>> What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest
>> mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.

> Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those
> are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old
> technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more
> knowledge based tools for a collaboration.

Statements as above  hit the thumb instead of the nail - causing the
corresponding (re)sentiments. :o))

> Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off.

I can't hold You.

Maybe it's to hard for some people here to read single opinions as
opinions instead of facts and to stand opinions different from the own
ones.

Apparently live is like that..

Have a nice time.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Augustine, *,

Augustine Souza schrieb:

>Microsoft must be smiling.

Everyone more smiling in this world is a good one so:
Fine, if we are able to make even Microsoft happy..

.. and we even stay happy ourselves if not successful with this ;o)).


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

[..]

> Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the
> adage, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

> Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya.

Do You have an account on the CMS?

If not, someone might have the link at hand for registering.

> Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then
> I'll whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal?

I'd assume there is no problem to get an author's account.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still
>> don't get the point.

> Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?

Whom do You accuse here?

> www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it
> says:

> For user support, we have:
>> * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our
>> main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem
>> [...]index. * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at
>> freenode.net [...] * FAQs: we are compiling a list of
>> frequently-asked questions. [...] * Documentation: Check our
>> documentation download page [...] * System requirements: Read the
>> system requirements [...] * Installation instructions: [...]
>> * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]

> That's it!

> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near
> the top. It's not anywhere on the page!

What did You *act* to get it there?

> Why haven't you approached
> that forum's management to discuss integration with LibreOffice
> (including branding and design)?

Whom do You ask? This question is one You should ask yourself: Why
haven't *You* approached to do so?

> What is this if not a sign of
> extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people using
> the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable with, or resistant to,
> using IRC or mailing lists?

indeed! *You* did notice that issue and what was *Your* action?

Again: whom do You accuse? Who should act, if not You?

> I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about.

An Open Source Software community is a place to *act* rather than
complain.

[..]

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[tdf-discuss] Clever quoting (was: LO & OO are not the only competitors of MSOffice... LO could also make a simple office suite that runs in Android & iOS)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Jaime, *,

Jaime R. Garza schrieb:
>On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 11:53, Valter Mura  wrote:

[.. complete mail block qouted ..]

>About the top quote, it this how it's supposed to be? Isn't it better
> the other way? At least for me it is.

In short: 
Put comments inline the quoted text below the line they refer to,
seperated by one empty line. Delete paragraphs You do not refer to.

Posting guidelines link to be found at the footer of every mail. OK -
only one link (learn2quote) present in the wikipage at the moment.
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

In particular:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.1, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3

[..]

Hope this helps :o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Get and appove: recommended Soundfile pronouncing "LibreOffice"

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Henri, *,

M Henri Day schrieb:
> 2011/4/1 Christian Lohmaier 
>> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 4:26 PM, M Henri Day  
wrote:
>>> 2011/4/1 dionysien 

[..]

 The component words of LibreOffice, though quite common
 international words,
 have already diverging pronounciations wordwide.
 :o))
[..]

>>> As the same time, the concerns of posters who wonder how it can
>>> be pronounced in their respective languages should not be ignored.

Exactly what made me step in.

[..]

>>> Friedrich's German-lnguage version is a good example

>>  Oh, it is not German language :-) it is the french/english
>> version spoken by a German

I just wanted to give a quick answer on a simple question. The file at
least gives an idea of what was in the minds creating the name.

> Thanks for your nitpicking, Christian ; were I to return the favour I
> should point out that Friedrich's file was an example of a
> German-language pronunciation of a French word followed by an English
> one. In any event, as I hope I made clear in my previous posting, I
> feel that more of the same (*mutatis mutandi*, of course) would be
> helpful to those in doubt as to how to the term might be pronounced in
> their respective languages

+1

I rethink my proposal for a "recommended" version as long as we don't
leave alone those in doubt.

> *Gruß*

;o))


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: How to pronounce the name (again, sorry)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:

> Can we please stop with all of this nonsense about how to pronounce
> the name?

Your approach is valid, it's however strongly off-topic in this list.

You might post it at r...@documentfoundation.org where it is highly
appreciated!

Subscribe by issuing a mail to
rant+subscr...@documentfoundation.org

get more info by issuing a mail to
rant+h...@documentfoundation.org

You can post without subscription, please consider some delay due to
moderating Your post then. 

:o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Get and appove: recommended Soundfile pronouncing "LibreOffice"

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb:

[..]

> My proposal:
> lets collect proposals for soundfiles pronouncing "LibreOffice" and
> have a simple voting for the one we point to, if people ask.
> This can be Files created by community members or some
> found in the internet. The first may be preferable due to license
> issues.

Here You can hear me saying "LibreOffice":
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e2/Libreoffice_ger-tongue_fs.mp3

;o))

[..]

> more proposals?

> comments?


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[tdf-discuss] Get and appove: recommended Soundfile pronouncing "LibreOffice"

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

there were several requests regarding the correct pronunciation of
LibreOffice. The name "LibreOffice" was choosen by minds mainly from
roman/german language area and of course there are no relevant
pronunciation issues for those. But there are sometimes heavy ones for
minds of other language areas.

Some people - mainly from the first category - propose to pronounce
deliberately not aware there are severe problems to even catch the idea
how to do so.

So I start this thread in the hope to get a situation satisfying a wide
range of community members. ;o))

My proposal:
lets collect proposals for soundfiles pronouncing "LibreOffice" and have
a simple voting for the one we point to, if people ask.
This can be Files created by community members or some
found in the internet. The first may be preferable due to license
issues.

This one I estimate quite close on how it appears to the minds of the
founders (Don't mind orthography or braindead "translation"):
http://translate.google.com/#de|de|LiebreOffice

more proposals?

comments?


Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] How to pronounce the name (again, sorry)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi sophie, *,

sophie schrieb:

> On 28/03/2011 17:32, Jon Hamkins wrote:
>> In the U.S., it is also unclear how to pronounce LibreOffice.  Those
>> of us showing up to man the booth at SCaLE came with slightly
>> different assumptions on pronunciation.  Do we need an official
>> position from TDF, perhaps a localized one, or is it OK for everyone
>> to say it how they want?

> Pronounce it as you feel it, it's the best for an open source project
> :)

Sorry, I strongly disagree.
Which I disagree is to leave people alone while asking for help.

You are in the position of not having any issues pronouncing, because
You were one of the minds choosing the name, which of course fits the
people doing so. There is nothing wrong with that.

But we should not let people beeing on their own, facing those issues
for two reasons:

- we never should leave alone anyone searching help

- I'd think it's a nice thing to understand each other when we meet live
  at any place and speak of the subject of our hearts :o)). 

This is no proposal for a single official pronunciation written in
stone, but rather one for an agreement for better understanding. 


Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] How to pronounce the name (again, sorry)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Stefan, Samphan, *,

Stefan Weigel schrieb:
> Am 27.03.2011 08:22, schrieb Samphan Raruenrom:

>> I found this page
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/general-faq/how-do-you-prono
>> unce-libreoffice/ that link to Google translate to provide the
>> (official?) pronouncement.

> I don´t think, that this is "official" in sense of approved by TDF
> or the TDF community.

>> http://translate.google.com/#fr|en|LibreOffice

> This sounds odd to me, personally.

to me as well..

> The following sounds almost like the one I am used to:
> http://translate.google.com/#fr|en|LiebreOffice

my favorite:
http://translate.google.com/#fr|de|LiebreOffice
which I assume is most close to the intended marriage between the
french libre and the english office in my opinion.

>> I'm quite surprised with it. I thought it is ˈlɪbə as in "liberty"
>> orlbr as in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vers+libre
>> So actually it is ˈliːbreɪ as in
>> http://es.thefreedictionary.com/libre , right?

> Yes, I would agree.

Quite close I think.

>> It would be nice if someone could provide an official pronouncement
>> sound file on the LibreOffice website (and phonetic, for the
>> literate).

I think this is kind of good Idea..

> I am not sure, if there is really a need for an official
> pronunciation. This is a free project. Every participant is free to
> pronounce it the way she/he likes. For me, there is nothing wrong
> with different pronunciation by people with different native tongue.

> IMO,
> 
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/faq/general-faq/how-do-you-pronounce-libreoffice/
 
should be changed, in order to express that ther is no
> wrong or right.

I'd rather think of a *proposal* file which has been approved by simple
voting on this list.

I agree there should not be any official "pressure" of pronunciaton, but
I think it couldn't harm to have a proposal sound file for those who
look for advice or - in this case - look for a way writing LibreOffice
in their native language at all.

I think overruling things and help to find a consensus to understand
each other must not be mistaken.


Gruß/regards
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[tdf-discuss] international DVD projects now called to join

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi all,

we now are prepaired for DVD projects to join.
see http://www.mail-archive.com/projects@libreoffice.org/msg00034.html

and join the projects mailinglist for initial discussion.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:

> On 2011-03-11 4:16 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
>>> I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this
>>> causes *more* trouble... please reiterate...

>> O.K.: All subscribers not subscribed for "normal" mail will get
>> trouble. recall: no universal unsubscribe for whatever subscription
>> available.

> Eh? There are only two, right? Normal and Digest.

No, it's three: "nomail" also. Admittedly the latter one won't cause
problems because no one will be nagged by unwanted mails.

> And each list will have its own unsubscribe link...

> So, for the normal list:

> Unsubscribe: E-mail to list+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org

> and for the digest:

> Unsubscribe: E-mail to list-digest+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org

> I don't see the problem...

Eeach mail of the digest contains the normal unsubscribe link which, if
read at all, causes confusion. There could be the valid one at the end
of each digest - only read by those who won't have/make troubles at all.


Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
> On 2011-03-11 9:52 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
>> Charles Marcus schrieb:

>>> So change the footer to something like:

>>> Unsubscribe: E-mail to discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org
>>> List Help: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
>>> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
>>> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

>> minor change of line 2:
>> I'd like rather:
>> List Help: visit http://nice-url.libreoffice.org

> Fine with me...

Uff! :o))

>> If some day someone provides me with http://nice-url.libreoffice.org
>> I'll go and change footers as avised since january.

> I'm confused... you're ok with making the change, but won't do so
> until the list help is converted from the *current* email format to a
> web page?

> That doesn't make sense - these are two separate issues... if you can
> make the change, please do so, then once a web page help is created,
> you can change line 2 to the web link...

You're right 2 seperate things. But for me: 2 times start action, which
I don't like. It's nearly double work. My offer is to sit down and do
the work *once* if all is fine. There is a big agenda waiting. You might
remember: We're working on setting up the DVD environment.

>>> Of course, each list should have the correct unsub link in its
>>> footer.

>> like it's already the case with the this-list+help and is also the
>> case in the mail sent to this-list+h...@lang.domain.tld

> That's a link to the *help* email...

>> To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to:
>> [..]
>>  

>> note: clickable Link!!

> That brings up a new *email* message...

indeed.

> I'm talking about a link that, with one click, takes you to a *web*
> page that simply says something like "You have been unsubscribed from
> this-list - if this was in error, click 'here' to resubscribe."

Ah, didn't get that - but I still prefer: click here to confirm! ;o))

> This is how many, many unsub links work...

Now got it. As Florian wrote: isn't implemented yet.

> Hey... in fact, many unsub links in  the email footer itself takes you
> to a secure confirmation *web page*, where you can then click the
> 'Yes, really unsub me now!' button...

> I like that idea much better now that I think of it...

ditto

>>> There really is no reasonable, rational argument against adding
>>> this one liner to the footer.

>> Your right - it's waiting since weeks ;o))

>> but I share Christian's concerns, that changing the first line
>> causes as much trouble as it avoids.

> I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this causes
> *more* trouble... please reiterate...

O.K.: All subscribers not subscribed for "normal" mail will get
trouble. recall: no universal unsubscribe for whatever subscription
available.

>>> I'll bet making these three changes will resolve at least half of
>>> the problems people have, if not more.

>> Guess: Lost!! ;o))

> Not at all... I win this one hands down...

With all requirements satisfied - maybe. :o)).


Gruß/regards
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Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
> On 2011-03-11 6:55 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

[..]

> So change the footer to something like:

> --
> Unsubscribe: E-mail to discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org
> List Help: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

minor change of line 2:
I'd like rather:
List Help: visit http://nice-url.libreoffice.org

If some day someone provides me with http://nice-url.libreoffice.org
I'll go and change footers as avised since january.

> Of course, each list should have the correct unsub link in its footer.

like it's already the case with the this-list+help and is also the case
in the mail sent to this-list+h...@lang.domain.tld

Cited the reply for this list:
=
Commands available for discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Datum: 11.03.2011 15:44
 Von: discuss+ow...@documentfoundation.org
 An: damokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de
 
Hello,

The following options are available:

To unsubscribe send a message to:

discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org

To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to:
[..]


note: clickable Link!!

> There really is no reasonable, rational argument against adding this
> one liner to the footer.

Your right - it's waiting since weeks ;o)) 

but I share Christian's concerns, that changing the first line causes as
much trouble as it avoids.

> I'll bet making these three changes will resolve at least half of the
> problems people have, if not more.

Guess: Lost!! ;o))

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
> On 2011-03-10 8:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

>> The one situation where unsubscribing is "difficult" is when the
>> reply asking for confirmation to unsubscribe is flagged as spam and
>> thus not sorted to the user's inbox, but then again that's not the
>> fault of the list-management.

> So change the default behavior...

> Make the confirmation email just that - a confirmation that an
> unsubscribe request has been made, and if they don't cancel the
> request within - what, 12? 24? hours, then the unsubscribe request is
> honored.

Not a really good idea in my opinion, because anyone can unsubscribe
You!

In worst case, this enables the possibility of an "unsubscription war".


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, NoOp, *,

Florian Effenberger schrieb:
> NoOp wrote on 2011-03-10 06.10:

[..]

> If you have a good proposal, let me know. We, however, tried every
> solution, and mlmmj seemed best.

+1

> What we, and that's where I agree with you, need is some web interface
> that helps users in managing their subscriptions.

I won't worry about that, as long as it ist *not* obligatory! One of the
big advantages of the "mail way" of managing mailing list
(un-)subscriptions is *not* to have one more account anywhere around.

[..]

>> Perhaps it is because by the time the reach point of unsubscribing
>> to the list(s) that they don't want to read? Don't know, but if the
>> unsubscribe/subscribe information were posted on the website mail
>> list area maybe they could instead be referred to that instead of
>> some special email?

I wait for that link since January! No one was able to provide me with
it up to now!
see:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg04585.html

[..]

>> How about tagging moderated messages so that subscribed users know
>> that the post is from a unsubscribed poster and has been forwarded
>> by a moderator? It's rather simple: just as a [Moderated] tag to the
>> subject of the message.

> As said, we would have to iplement that ourselves. So, if there's a
> volunteer, willing to work on the mlmmj source code, I am happy
> install a patch. Sadly, no mailing list system I know of provides
> that, but it would indeed be a great feature.

See my mail to Marco:
http://go.mail-archive.com/RjF-au8F7oa5W9Jc7Z9f2S2YwhA=

In short saying: send autgenerated mail to nonsubscriber pointing to the
archived thread of his question.

>> Then if the mandate is to allow unsubscribed posts, *please*
>> identify the post as such with a [Moderated] tag in the subject. As
>> you may/or may not have witnessed on the OOo list over the past 5
>> years or so, this issue has been a subject of contention that raises
>> it's ugly head at least once a month. The general consensus was to
>> allow unsubscribed posters; the key problem was/is that there was/is
>> no easy way to know if the post came from such.

As Marko says in his Blog: don't bother valuable volunteers with that
question at all.

>> So folks send off a reply only to be told later that the time they
>> took to respond fell on deaf ears because the OP was from someone not
>> subscribed to the list. They then have to decide whether they wish to
>> reforward their response to the Unsub, or just move on.

> I agree that this would be helpful, it just has to be developed, as no
> mailing list manager provides it out of the box. My take would be,
> btw, to add the information to the message body, in order to not
> break threading with a modified subject. Again, if someone wants to
> come up with a patch that does it, you're welcome! See
> http://mlmmj.org/bugs/bug.php?id=20

This from my point of view is one solution even if not my favorite.

[..]

>> Is it a limitation for mlmmj, or can the instructions that are
>> received in the email be posted on the website?

See above. I'm waiting just for the link - no matter whether alive or
not - since weeks.

[..]

> In a nutshell: Four things can help, and if someone works on them,
> that would be welcome

>   1. A website explaining the unsubscription mechanism
>   2. A web interface for moderators and users of the lists
>   3. A patch to tag moderated messages
>   4. A patch to improve the unsubscription mechanism, so that
> unsubscribe always unsubscribes you from everything, as long as you
> just have one type of list subscription

5. A mechanism informing not subscribed people, how to find the anwers
themselves.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marco, *,

M. Fioretti schrieb:
> On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 15:16:35 PM +0100, Christian Lohmaier 
(lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com) wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 4:05 AM, NoOp  wrote:

>>> 1. Why are unsubscribed posts even allowed? It would seem that
>>> folks would have learned from the OOo list history.

>> Excuse me? What is wrong with allowing non-subscribers messages? And
>> what would you have learned from "OOo list history"?

> Christian,

> NoOp refers, I think, to what I summarized in this post last November,
> just to not rewrite it every time these discussions come up:

> 
http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/11/a-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-libreoffice/

> please note that I explicitly acknowledge in that page that "it is
> unavoidable that such a support list must accept (after moderation)
> even messages from unsubscribed users". So (in this case) I agree with
> you that non-subscribers messages must pass.

Which in my opinion is managed quite well with the moderaters work.

> This said, the "OOo list history" is there. What may be learned from
> it is up to the reader. And, of course, what can actually be done
> today by LibO to not repeat those particular mistakes depends on the
> available infrastructure.

I read Your page (second time :o))) and second what You wrote.

One solution could be:
For each mail sent to the list from a not subscribed user send a
automtically generated answer to his mailadress containing the already
generated search hash for http://www.mail-archive.com.

So no volunteer is bothered to even think about any subscription issues
and the "once in his life asking member" will be provided with the
answers.

Already done:
Each message sent to any of our public lists already has such a header.
This is the one of Your post I'm replying to:
Archived-At: 

No clue how much work implementing such thing.

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
> On 03/09/2011 02:07 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote:

>> 1. Moderation via e-mail is not comfortable. It especially requires
>> one password shared among all moderators, which is inconvenient.

> Why is this inconvenient?

Shared password *never* is a good idea. You don't know, where they are
and if You have to change the moderaters group - i.e. excluding some -
for any reason, the change of password is obligatory and affects all
active moderators. That's definitely inconvenient not only for the list
admin.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New project list

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Sophie, *,

Sophie Gautier schrieb:

> In order to better coordinate the work between the different language
> projects we have settled a new list:
> proje...@libreoffice.org:

[..]

> please subscribe to this list by sending a mail to:
> projects+subscribe-dig...@libreoffice.org

shure You wanted to recommend subscription of digest mode for general
purpose?

I'll add two more ways to subscribe:

# get "normal" list mails
projects+subscr...@libreoffice.org 

# get no mails but be able to send from gmane or nabble:
projects+subscribe-nom...@libreoffice.org

# get a summary of the basic commands (except normal subscription =bug?)
projects+h...@libreoffice.org

> Archives of the list are here:
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/projects/
> http://www.mail-archive.com/projects@libreoffice.org/
> Gmane is pending.

> Thanks!
dito ;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Need for more compound words for spellcheck dictionary.

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Robert, *,

I'm not very deep involved in spellchecking, but nevertheless trying a
shot..

Robert Derman schrieb:

> RGB ES wrote:
>> AFAIK, LibO dictionaries are the same dictionaries from OOo.  If you
>> have a custom dictionary where you added the words you miss, you can
>> "import" (I mean, copy to the right location) that dictionary into
>> LibO user profile. See here for more details about the user profile:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UserProfile

>> 2011/2/20 Robert Derman  :
>>> One of the reasons, perhaps the main reason I have not upgraded to
>>> LO from OpenOffice 3.1 yet is that I dread having to go through the
>>> process of adding over a thousand compound words to the spellcheck
>>> dictionary.  This dictionary has almost NO compound words in it!
>>> Does anyone know if this problem has been addressed with LO 3.3.  I
>>> am using the U.S. English version.  If this severe shortcoming has
>>> not yet been addressed yet, I think we should do so before version
>>> 3.4.

If I remember well german, dictionary changed to hunspell dictionary
engine for that reason. German and many more languages' words are
compound words in a very wide range so that problem arose from
beginning. Not shure what spellchecking engine is used for english
languages spellchecking - I guess it's aspell which has poor support for
compound words.

But all guessed. Not enough insight in that topic.

[.. impact of poor spellchecking ..]

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Best time for Conference Calls

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>I thought I would put forward a view regarding the best time for
>conference calls being held world wide.
>The current situation regarding the conference calls is such that the
>people situated in South-East Asia and Australia need to be awake at
>3-4AM to attend the calls.

As I assume it to be common sense, confcalls not beeing the way to get
community wide decisions. What about building local/timezone based
groups holding conf calls at a time convenient to their members?
Afterwards sharing the results on the mailing lists where people can
read them at any convenient moment?

>Might I suggest That we move the times earlier in the day to around
>1200-1400 GMT.
>http://www.wheatland.com.au/sites/default/files/files/BestTimeCalling.PNG

>As far as I can see this would exclude the least number of people
>around the world from attending the calls.

Where is the timezone nobody would be excluded?

>What do others think?

See above. Another fact to consider: many people are excluded simply by
not beeing capable to follow nor participate a spoken english
coversation at telephone but can do so writing english or persoally
present.

My conclusion: Conf calls can complete the daily community work but
should not be a in any way main part of it.

>Thanks,

my pleasure :o))

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New year - new listmailfooter

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Andrea, *,

Andrea Pescetti schrieb:

>Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
>> If You think, it beeing a good thing to have a "posting guidelines"
>> pointer in the footer, then I'll be glad to put it in there for all
>> active Mailinglists.

>I agree it's a good thing to have it, and I suggest to seize this
>opportunity to get rid of the "eternity" tagline if possible, in favor
>of a less flamboyant formulation.

It's not flamboyant, but lyric! :o))

But indeed it's on the agenda, too (assuming that more votes against it
represent a mayority of opinion rather than higher power of naggers).
;o)).

But as required I need the URL for the right place of netiquette
information, before starting operation.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New year - new listmailfooter

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi @ll,

If You think, it beeing a good thing to have a "posting guidelines"
pointer in the footer, then I'll be glad to put it in there for all
active Mailinglists.

What I need is an URL within the project wiki- or webpages to point at.

There already is a german one to have an ipression what I'm thinking of.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Mailinglists/Netiquette/de


Bottom post for completeness.

Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb:
>Fabián Rodríguez schrieb:

[..]

>> This page should provide information on how to make yours compliant
>> with the multilingual conventions for the wiki:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Multilingual_Wiki

>Thanks Fabián, for the Link. Maybe there will be a helpful mind reading
>it and at least provide me with the URL pointing the page's right place
>if it existed.

>I'd put in that line even if the page wasn't completed yet. So maybe
> the motivation to fill it with useful content might rise. ;o))


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Re: [steering-discuss] libreoffice.org e-mail accounts

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Jonathan, *,

Jonathan Aquilina schrieb:
> On 01/17/2011 11:30 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> 2011/1/16 Friedrich Strohmaier
>>> Charles-H. Schulz schrieb:
>>>> Le Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:23:02 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier 
  a écrit :
>>>>> Olivier Hallot schrieb:

[..]

>>>>>> Leave the mail for TDF oficials as @documetnfoundation.org

>>>> +1, I would even add the following: @libreoffice.org are only
>>>> available for official contributors and even they have to request
>>>> it (I don't exactly see the automatic need for, say, a code
>>>> contributor to have such an address).

>>> I've a different view whom beeing part of the community:
>>> What's about one passing the (upcoming) DVD to his neighbour plus
>>> giving him first support but never appearing in the official
>>> "contributing system" here?

[..]

>> So to me there are also advocates and promoters who are very happy
>> without an email address or a special status.

> Friedrich may i add that all i have see on other FOSS projects is
> that mails are given to big time developers to the project, not users
> or fans of a given project.

"All" is a big word here ;o)). I was Member of one of the largest FOSS
communities (think of three "O" two upper case, lower case the last) for
many (some 7 or 8) years, where it was obligatory to get a mailadress
just to have an account for some (by far not all) community resources
(issuetracker). So You did oversee at least one.. And the best: there
was no way to get rid of it!  No way to delete the account :o)).

Seriously I think in respect of our (the successor of the above) project
size we have to go our own way. And I continue thinking it wasn't to bad
to get "a member" that easy.

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New year - new listmailfooter

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Fabián, *,

Fabián Rodríguez schrieb:
> On 11-01-17 02:56 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

[.. footer ..]

>> There is already one from the german language project:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Mailinglists/Netiquette/de

>> As I'm not familiar with naming conventions of the wikipages it
>> would help just to have the URL this page's place corresponding to
>> the obove mentioned german one.

>> Can someone provide help with this?

> Hello Friedrich,

> This page should provide information on how to make yours compliant
> with the multilingual conventions for the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Multilingual_Wiki

Thanks Fabián, for the Link. Maybe there will be a helpful mind reading
it and at least provide me with the URL pointing the page's right place
if it existed.

I'd put in that line even if the page wasn't completed yet. So maybe the
motivation to fill it with useful content might rise. ;o))


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Re: [steering-discuss] relocating mailing lists at libreoffice.org?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

Florian Effenberger schrieb:

[..relocating Mailadresses..]

> There are two options for this issue:

>   a.) We could use @libreoffice.net or some other domain ending
>   (TLD) for those e-mail addresses

>   b.) We move the mailing lists @libreoffice.org to some subdomain
>   (like l...@libreoffice.org => l...@global.libreoffice.org)

> Thoughts on that?

What about b.) with
1) @project.libreoffice.org  - for all nonpersonal mail addresses i.e.
Mailinglists, multirecipients, ..

2) @libreoffice.org  - for officers and highload merits

and maybe

3) @community.libreoffice.org  - for the adicts (generous availability)

so the "3)" ones give some "aahhh"s and "ooohh"s noticing a "2)" one..
similar *but not equal* to the <2char>@openoffice.org adresses.  ;o))

What I like on Ubuntu is that signing the Code of conduct.
You have to sign the document with your gpg key. This way some going
through baptism of fire would be the price for the mail address.


You asked for it ;o))

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Spam filtering the mailing lists

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Jonathan, *,

Jonathan Aquilina schrieb:

>I was cleaning out my junk folder to find there were at least 7 emails
>which Thunderbird was nice enough to filter from my gmail inbox.

These for shure were mails sent to one of the mailinglists? To which
one?

>I think that filtering should be in place as an extra preventative
>measure so that all users across all lists don't get bombarded with
> junk mails.

No single one coming through here sent by the lists I subscribed
(de-discuss, tdf-discuss, steering-discuss).

You could find them in the list-archive?

But yes, there are some sent to the mailadress used in that
mailinglists, which is another topic.

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[tdf-discuss] New year - new listmailfooter

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi community,

a new year has started - at least for some of us, and I'll take a new
attempt of finishing the footers of the List emails.

We decided to have an additional line containing a link to a project
wikipage providing posting guidelines like netiquette/quoting and other
helpful informaition.

Some of the valued readers of my former mails in this matter intended to
setup such a page.

There is already one from the german language project:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Mailinglists/Netiquette/de

As I'm not familiar with naming conventions of the wikipages it would
help just to have the URL this page's place corresponding to the obove
mentioned german one.

Can someone provide help with this?

Gruß/regards
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Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] An Interesting Mockup

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Zaphod, *,

Zaphod Feeblejocks schrieb:

[.. side oriented toolbar ..]

> Granted, the current LibO/OOo interface looks dated, but people know
> their way round it - at least the know how to find the things they
> use.  Some things are far too clumsy (e.g. mail- merging).  A sudden
> change would drive people (well, me) back over to OOo.

> Let's reach a proper concensus.

+1

>> Now that most screens are wide screen
>> A side bar based UI is the best usage of space.

> Fair point - but give users the option.

I strongly second this!

[..]

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

I should never write mails before having the second cup of
coffee.

Charles Marcus schrieb:
>On 2011-01-17 7:50 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

[..]

>> What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes
>> but more useful? It again depends on who does what!

>I'm really becoming more and more dismayed at all of the infighting
>going on on these lists - it gives me pause that LibO may not be able

Oh, sorry You are totally right!  My apologies.

> to survive, if those holding the reins right now are unable or
> unwilling to make some changes that will smooth  the way for those
> wanting to contribute, without fear that their efforts will all be
> for naught.

I'll care for more civilized wording in future.

>Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided
> integrated mail list <> forums <> nabble so that any user could use
> their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated,
> making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is
> better totally moot.


Thanks for pointing out.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi RGB ES, *,

RGB ES schrieb:

>It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see
>on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing
>lists...
>Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the
>people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add
>tools to easy the work of people using it,

Good words..

>and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the
>tools available on mailing lists.

What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but
more useful? It again depends on who does what!

Example search tool:
I personally like to search my locally archived mails (sometimes
thousands in one archive) with tools I'm familiar with - sometimes with
grep. So grep is more useful than a very limited search on some forum?

Nope! It's more useful for *me* beeing familiar with it. And obviously
this is one of the strong side of mailinglists: Everyone is free to
choose his own means organazing and reading the mails. Not only local
means but also reading and writing via nntp-client (gmane), listarchive
(mail-archive.com) even in a forum-like UI (nabble). 

>The content is build by the people.

Exactly. And there is a point I didn't read up to now (or missed it):
Regardless how organized: The success of every volunteer driven support
offer is not only low threshold accessibility for people needing help,
but also enough "meat" for the people giving support! That is not only
a high rate of questions but also a certain level of knowlage available
for themselves!

And I know of many of those having that necessary level of knowlegde in
one or more areas of LO/OOo which declaired they never will join a
forum.

That doesn't mean a forum is a evel thing at all. But assumed the above
condition is true, it will never be a support offer representing all
available knowledge. Admittedly it can complete the support chain -
as did the german ooo-forum I know from telling. No clue about the
international one.

>I think the OOo community forum are a good example of how forums can
>be really useful: lots of difficult problems are solved there and all
>the volunteers have good knowledge of what they are talking about.

>Forums are noisy only when moderators do not do they work
>(move/merge/split threads...). Of course there are a lot of noisy
>forums out there, but that's a problem with the people, not with the
>system ;)

again - good words ;o))

btw please consider
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
here: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.5

for more clear and efficient communication. :o))

[.. recycled TOFU ..]


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Bring up libreoffice.org website to world *now*

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi David, *,

David Nelson schrieb:

[.. libreoffice.org website lauch delay issues ..]

>We're going to get this site on the road really quickly now.

That are good news! :o))

Thanks for feeding the engine with gasoline. :o))

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[tdf-discuss] Bring up libreoffice.org website to world *now* (was:deb installer - have to manually modify link)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Christian, *,

just a short step in here..

Christian Lohmaier schrieb:

[..]

> It is because just I don't know /why/ people don't add content. It
> still is not clear to me what they are waiting for.

I'd assume they wait for publishing. I can't see any reason, why to keep
the building process of the page behind the sceenes. Everything
regarding tdf is beta[1] - why not the website??

[1] O.K. The software itself isn't any more ;o)).

If there is no real plan by people keen to add content, let the
questions and complaints of visitors be the priorizing and structuring
criteria. :o)).

snip of the "test", go world and wait, what it demands from You.

>>> I propose the following, i.e. focus the work on individual pages
>>> this week: * Home/Welcome page: Start now, continue till sunday
>>> (I'd like to have some nice graphics there, some updated buttons)

Do it but do it publicly. Everything is prepaired to review contents
before publishing while the site is "under traffic".

[..]

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] deb installer - have to manually modify link

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Stefan, *,

Stefan Weigel schrieb:
> Am 06.12.2010 12:21, schrieb Sebastian Spaeth:
>> On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 11:52:25 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
>>> Try the other download page
>>> http://www.test.libreoffice.org/download/

I get:
Page not found
Sorry, it seems you were trying to access a page that doesn't exist.

>> BTW, any chance to sqitch to to that very soon? It shouldn't hard to
>> replicate the static content that we have there right now and it
>> would modifying/improving the content so much easier...

I wonder whether it will be published at all.
I think we should publish right now as is and complete "under traffic",
considering a website never beeing perfect. :o))

> Well, someone just changed http://www.test.libreoffice.org/download/
> and made downloading again very inconvenient.

> The convenient script can still be found here
> http://s132649167.online.de/LibO_test/sw_download.php

There is also one more draft here:
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/home/download-and-sub/


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: deb installer - have to manually modify link

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

Marc Paré schrieb:
> Le 2010-12-06 04:48, Rainer M Krug a écrit :

[..]

>> Would it be possible to provide one link to the .deb and on to the
>> rpm on the download page?

> I agree. I use the RPM version and it works quite well for this, but
> it would also be nice to put a Linux DEB download button(s) or make
> some other type of arrangements till the www.test.libreoffice.org
> site goes live. The download site as it stands is probably
> frustrating a lot of users who are interested in helping out. Even
> our own DEB members are frustrated over this situation.

Do You know anything about Websitestatus and sheduled switch?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Why is LO/OOo so slow loading a spreadsheet?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi plino, *,

plino schrieb:

>> Maybe the right list would help.  Try the users list,
>> [hidden email]  or ask the developers,
>> [hidden email] .

>That is exactly my point. In a forum,anyone could answer.

wrong. anyone *which is reading* - same thing in a mailinglist. :o))

[..]

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Why is LO/OOo so slow loading a spreadsheet?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi plino, *,

plino schrieb:

>Another topic ignored?

>Maybe a mailing list isn't the right tool...

Maybe?
It's good and recommended practice in mailinglists only to answer, if
knowing an answer.

Many search engine hits I found, show: this isn't on forums. ;o))


Happy if not having to read one.

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] A better idea for a download package.

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi BRM,

BRM schrieb:
> From: Charles Marcus 
>> On 2010-11-30 5:29 PM, BRM wrote:

[..]

>>> While that may currently be the case - that is  absolutely
>>> ridiculous. TDF/LO should make a priority of resolving that 
>>> issue.

>> Great, then I'm sure your contribution of these code changes will 
>> be forthcoming soon?

>> Yes, I'm joking.

> As joking as you may be, I for one would do so if I had the time.
> As it is - I might in a few months, but I can't guarantee it right
> now.

> The cost/benefit would _be_ worth it.

I could not find Your mailadress in the developer's mailinglist.
Are You already subscribed there?

If not You could do so here:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

[..]

> Please stop discouraging this kind of work. If the effort is to be
> done at all, then we need to encourage this kind
> of work - even if in small incremental steps. But it has to start
> somewhere and with a goal in mind to accomplish.

Agreed. So don't hesitate to subscribe the dev list which is the best
place for Your proposal.

[..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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Re: [tdf-discuss] accessibility mailing list

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Christophe Strobbe, *,

as mentioned in the mail answering Sigrid there was a missunderstanding
on my side about the translation and recognition of "disabilities" which
lead me to wrong conclusions. Sorry for the confusion.

Christophe Strobbe schrieb:

[..]

>I don't think this is fair towards people with
>disabilities: they already face bigger challenges
>in education, in finding a job (with a lower
>salary, on average), in learning to use ICT (if
>they can afford it), etc. For certain user
>groups, especially those that completely rely on
>assistive technology, becoming efficient is a
>bigger challenge than for those without
>disabilities (check for example the videos on the
>assistiveware channel:
>, e.g.
>"A pivotal role in the household").

>(And let us not fall into the trap of
>generalisations; those who can cope with large
>volumes of mail can still choose to follow the general mailing lists.)

agreed!

Best regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] accessibility mailing list

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Sigrid, *,

Thanks for clarification..

Sigrid Carrera schrieb:
>2010/11/29 Friedrich Strohmaier 

>> might be I don't understand "accesibility" well..

>yes, perhaps.
>Accessibility refers to people who have some disabilities, like bad
>eyesight, so you need a screen reader to learn about the content of a
>website or a document.

O.K. then I was on the wrong track. I assumed things regarding (bad)
user experience which isn't wrong in this context but a different topic.

I didn't get "disabilities" well.

>> Florian Effenberger schrieb:

[..]

>> >following large mail threads not related to that topic,
>> >can be a problem - so a dedicated list indeed might make sense.

>> This can be a problem for whomever. It's only solution is to get
>> Your tools and Your communication partners help You achieving that
>> task. This can be shurely be demanded by someone willing tho help
>> development. Someone looking for advice is a completely different
>> story and should be handled as such.

>Depending on those people's disability, they can see this almost as an
>personal attack (I remember those threads on the users list quite
> well...)

Got it - thanks. :o))

So concerns for a seperate mailinglist are resolved.

Gruß/regards
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Re: [tdf-discuss] accessibility mailing list

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian, *,

might be I don't understand "accesibility" well..

Florian Effenberger schrieb:
>Christoph Noack wrote on 2010-11-28 13.08:

>> Sorry to ask - but who asked? :-) It is a great sign, since this
>> topic is very important and requires quite some experience. In the
>> past, I felt very safe with Éric Savary covering this task for OOo
>> and OOO.

>> It would be great to know who might take care :-)

>someone from the audience at LinuxDay Dornbirn talked to me about our
>accesibility plans. She was disabled herself, and proposed a separate
>list with lower mail volume, where developers and people in need of
>accessibility could exchange themselves.

not a good idea from my point of view because ..

>Of course, this only makes sense when we have someone taking care of
>this - that's why I share this idea. :-)

A mailinglist with bad balance of giving <-> gaining for *all* members
won't work well and this is, what I expect here.

[..]

>I guess the main concern is, that especially for people in need of
 ^^
>accessibility,
^^
does this mean they need support for reason of lacking accessibility
efficience or does that mean, they are interested in getting involved in
development for making that better.

In case of the first I'd say a mailinglist isn't a good choice at all.
It rather would be a candidate for "ask a question" support form.

>following large mail threads not related to that topic,
>can be a problem - so a dedicated list indeed might make sense.

This can be a problem for whomever. It's only solution is to get Your
tools and Your communication partners help You achieving that task. This
can be shurely be demanded by someone willing tho help development.
Someone looking for advice is a completely different story and should be
handled as such.

my 2¢

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A better idea for a download package.

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Robert, *,

Robert Derman schrieb:

[.. big snip ..]

>P.S.  I hope we can find a company or group of volunteers that can
> make an LO package available on disk. 

Regarding ISO-files for burning disks: good news for You. We offered
such ISO files for german language OpenOffice.org installer, templates,
extentions, and additional software to equip an office box.

We will also release an international/english version, but some time is
needed to set this up.

> I think it should be possible
> to make it available for no more than 5 US dollars or equivalent
> including shipping. For those folks with NO internet connection, it
> would be best if we could get the disk into retail channels.  For
> these people, if a software program is not available at retail, then
> it simply doesn't exist.

With such an ISO probably You might be distributor and retailer of that
disk for Your region?

To get an impression of our "box" You can grab the current DVD iso file
here (german, Bittorrent only):
http://torrent.projects.ooodev.org:6969/torrents/LibreOffice_3.3.0-1_DVD_snapshot-20101112-22.25.13_libreoffice-box_allplatforms_libreofice-box_de.iso.torrent?info_hash=47dd3235a48b67860fe91b44ea7e0b83f925796f

If You aren't afraid of german, download it, burn it (not as file, but
by "burn image".. ) and have a look. We built in a more easy to use
windows installer realized through an on disk k-meleon browser.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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Re: [tdf-discuss] CD/DVD distribution

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

Marc Paré schrieb:

> Le 2010-11-24 08:58, Friedrich Strohmaier a écrit :

[.. LibO disk image work setup ..]

>> We'll come back here, but as far as I see, we pretty unlikely will
>> succeed to manage releasing an international (english) version of
>> the first stable LibO in time.

[..]

> Could you make an announcement when you are up and running on this
> list

Shure. Remember: "Offer for hands willing to help" :o))

> or even better on the marketing mailist?

Good Idea. :o))

> I think it would be interesting for everyone to know about your work.

> I will just post this short discussion on the marketing list so that
> the marketing team can refer to it later.

Thanks.

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marco, *,

M. Fioretti schrieb:

[..]

> as I already said, more than promoting any support mode as the only
> one, my proposal is more limited to NOT making useless/embarassing the
> email mode. Right now, the only other proposals that come to my mind
> to make support as efficient as possible are:

>- add some "problem category" field to the form I mention in my
>  article (e.g. "My problem is: 1) format compatibility, 2)
>  configuration, 3 macros)

>- instead of sending an email, that form inside LibO may just query
>  the search engine of the Drupal website.

.. and offer one more possibility?: 

"No satisfying answer found? - Ask a question!"

which is sent to any resource, choosen to give useful answers, in a
dedicated fashion and with a dedicated way to reach the requesting
person. That might be an instant Email or confirm message containing
links to (future) results or emails anouncing each answer by link to a
public place - *not with answer inside* to not provocate an unhelpfull
reply!

my 2¢

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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[tdf-discuss] CD/DVD distribution (was: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Marc, *,

Marc Paré schrieb:
> Le 2010-11-23 19:20, Bernhard Dippold a écrit :

[...]

>> There is already a team working on a downloadable ISO for a DVD
>> containing not only the product, but documentation and other
>> resources too.

>> They started in the Germanophone OOo community as "PrOOo-Box"
>> (http://www.prooo-box.org) and continue their work for LibreOffice -
>> starting from the German version, but will work on an international
>> level too:
>> http://www.libreofficebox.org/

>> Best regards

>> Bernhard

> Thanks for the link Bernhard. Is this group listed anywhere on the OOo
> website?

Yes, but only in german NL part:
http://de.openoffice.org/downloads/download.html?version=3.2.1
http://de.openoffice.org/downloads/cd.html

may be jump in points for in any manner german capable interested 
people.

> Where do you think that we would list it on our LibreOffice.org site?
> This is great!

We're alive and have already released a first beta with LibO-beta2 to
grab here (german, Bittorrent only):
http://torrent.projects.ooodev.org:6969/torrents/LibreOffice_3.3.0-1_DVD_snapshot-20101112-22.25.13_libreoffice-box_allplatforms_libreofice-box_de.iso.torrent?info_hash=47dd3235a48b67860fe91b44ea7e0b83f925796f

but we need some time to come up with offers for hands willing to help.

We recently changed contents from hand coding to CMS (Silverstripe -
thanks Christian!), will change the machine soon and move to tdf
infrastucture and are therefore busy with setting up things.

We'll come back here, but as far as I see, we pretty unlikely will
succeed to manage releasing an international (english) version of the
first stable LibO in time.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Christian Lohmaier, *,

Christian Lohmaier schrieb:
>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas  
wrote:

[...]

>> Gmail very capable for mailing lists.

>Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
>When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
>one) as it will remove the references from the reply.

Can't confirm. References are O.K. here.

So it's an accidently damage or a gmail ./. gmail prob (If I interpreted
headers well).

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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[tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Community driven Project (was:Request: Installation Instructions)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Italo, *,

Italo Vignoli schrieb:

[..]

>The fact that I am technically illiterate (and I like being so) does
> not make me a worse user, or one with less rights. Communities around
> the world have made OOo a better product because they have cared
> about users, although the project was clearly driven by developers
> not able to show any respect for users (and where the community was
> not there the project has been marginally successful).

>TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project
>cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.

There is nothing to add to that statement.
And You are not alone achiving this! ;o))


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:
>On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 07:34:13PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is
>> not a good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a
>> computer or using office software ;o)).

>Ah, so we should let people not care about their PCs, how to use it,
> keep it safe etc. and thus affecting all, spreading viruses, spam and
> having botnets active?

No, it's never a good idea to replace one evel with another one and I
can't remember having advocated that. :o))

>> So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and
>> will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven
>> one.

> What the hell does that have to do with people using PCs getting their
> basics straight? Correctly, it doesn't.

Yes, You are right. It was the attitude carried by Your advice which
made me writing that statement. I missed the respect regarding the OP's
work, deciding to install Libreoffice, getting wired, and *writing a
report* about that. We definitly *want* that information.

> (Otherwise I agree with you, we can argue about marketing and I agree
> for some deeper features you need docs, but come on, are you also
> going to tell people on how to use their mouse?)

Using a mouse (I learned that 36 years old in five minutes) and
installing deb based software *not hold by a repo*, are incomparably
different levels of technical practice :o)).


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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[tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions)

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>> You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
>> Friedrich

>I am new to this mailing list thing.

Ah, O.K. so I will explain how I handle this (which is near to the
recommended way to do).

>I use Gmail and I reply by
>clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
>list.

I don't know Gmail, but what You tell from it's not a very mailing list
capable mail client.

>How are you able to tell which message I reply to?

The secret is mails sorted by discussion "threads". Every time You
answer a mail your mailer (aparently even gmail does :o)) ) puts some
information, who was the "parent" of the answer.  You don't see that
because it's saved in the mails headerpart.

If Your mailer is capable sorting mails by thread, You will se a tree of
mails with branches each time forked, when there are more than one
answers for the referred mail.

I took a screenshot of the related part of this discussion in my mailer'
window:
http://devel.libreofficebox.org/static/general/misc/download/threaded_listmails.png

Byond the mails list in the windows right column You can see how inline
quoting makes it easy to participate the discussion without retyping and
(interpreting!) the referred statement You're commenting. That ">"s at
beginning of the lines mark the quotet text - each answer adding one
more so You can see the history of the answer. 

that >>> quoted part was text from Craigs originating mail which more
correctly should have been mentioned in a apropriate "attribution line"
like:

René Engelhard schrieb:
>> Craig A. Eddy wrote:

The archive shows the whole thread here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/thrd32.html

It wouldn't harm to have a look here for tips regarding useful quoting:
http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

>And what should I be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's
>intended target?  But thanks for the tip.

Quite simple. Do what you would do in real life: Answer whom You want to
answer and start for new (new mail - no answer) if You start a new
topic. :o)) 

>Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
>I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
>source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
>it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

I think it's not arrogance, but rather a result of unilateral view on
peoples work. René is a valued member of debian and
openoffice.org/libreoffice project.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:

>On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:15:25PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> So you'd recommend everybody just running a desktop machine and not
>> wanting to get a full featured serveradmin to abhore debian?

>No, I want desktop users to know how to use their system. And if they
>also administer it they should know basics about dpkg.

>> >http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.

>> I can't see this hint an useful answer to the OP's question
>> regarding his aparent debian knowledge.

>True, but those are debs he can install if he used squeeze or sid :)

From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is not a
good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a computer or
using office software ;o)).

So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and
will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven one.

:o)))

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>> René Engelhard schrieb:
>>>Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system
>>> to know dpkg. Seriously.

[..]

You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.

Please take care for clear communication.

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>If I may throw in my 2c.

Welcome! :o))

>As a part of the official LibreOffice Drupal website development we
>will be creating a Q&A area where there are standard questions and
>answers, but it will also give people the opportunity to ask their own
>questions

That sounds good.

>and have them answered quickly by anyone else on the website
>at the time.

that's a to small base of present knowledge.

>In addition to this we will be setting up support accounts on all of
>the major social networks.

I'm quite shure, it is not a good idea to split forces and know how that
way. There should be a common place where technical support should
happen. Technical issues should be remembered not only by a presentation
platform but also by some kind of "common brain". Answers should be
generated with common knowledge in their back. To many places get that
"find the question on your question" effect, which I personally dislike
much.

>IMHO the process of subscribing, confirming, asking the question,
>getting relies then unsubscribing seems a little much for an end user
>to ask a simple question.

That's what at least I never did think of. Who claimed that?

[..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:

[.. depency question ..]

>Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to
> know dpkg. Seriously.

So you'd recommend everybody just running a desktop machine and not
wanting to get a full featured serveradmin to abhore debian?

>> >It would be much easier if there were a single meta-package that
>> > would act as the start point.  Failing that, at least an ordered
>> > list that an

>http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.

I can't see this hint an useful answer to the OP's question regarding
his aparent debian knowledge.

Gruß/regards
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Friedrich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian Reisinger, *,

This mail arrived completely screwed up!
I'm sure no one made the effort to read it.

Florian Reisinger schrieb:

[.. screwed content ..]

Gruß/regards
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