Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Yea will it caught me one time as well.   I guess I'm one that runs AGC 
either F or S depending on mode.  With the good roofing filters in the 
radio, I rarely have AGC pumping issues from strong stations that are of 
any concern.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/22/2019 4:37 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001!

Thanks!

Conrad PA5Y

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

Check the AF LIM settings.  {page 57 in the manual}    Typical value is NOR 030.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact
last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to
operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then
AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving
slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios
when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume
that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug.
For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up
doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 

Any idea what is going on?

73

Conrad PA5Y
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?; DO A BACKUP TO PRESERVE SETTINGS

[Bill Johnson]

This is why keeping a backup can be the best tool of the bunch.  You run into 
an issue, reload the backup.  Then erroneous settings made in haste or error 
can be fixed.  Now that you have fixed and radio is running as you want, do a 
backup.  Sometimes glitches get into the mix for no good reason, do a backup.  
Install it first to fix the settings.  Will save yourself lots of grief in the 
future.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc. 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Conrad PA5Y
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 4:38 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001!

Thanks!

Conrad PA5Y

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

Check the AF LIM settings.  {page 57 in the manual}    Typical value is NOR 030.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:
> Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact 
> last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to 
> operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then 
> AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving 
> slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios 
> when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume 
> that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug.
> For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up 
> doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 
>
> Any idea what is going on?
>
> 73
>
> Conrad PA5Y
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Conrad PA5Y]

Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001!

Thanks!

Conrad PA5Y

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

Check the AF LIM settings.  {page 57 in the manual}    Typical value is NOR 030.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:
> Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact 
> last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to 
> operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then 
> AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving 
> slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios 
> when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume 
> that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. 
> For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up 
> doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 
>
> Any idea what is going on?
>
> 73
>
> Conrad PA5Y
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Check the AF LIM settings.  {page 57 in the manual}    Typical value is 
NOR 030.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night 
was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC 
off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does 
the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the 
AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does 
not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . 
or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end 
up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 

Any idea what is going on?

73

Conrad PA5Y
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Dimitry Borzenko]

Hi Conrad.
Here is the some situation.
I think in the K3 S-meter not in the AGC loop, have diff channel and 
detector  same as in the FT2000.


-- Original Message --
From: "Conrad PA5Y" 
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
Sent: 22.09.2019 22:42:01
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?


Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night 
was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC 
off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does 
the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the 
AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does 
not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . 
or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end 
up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 

Any idea what is going on?

73

Conrad PA5Y
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Wes]

Check the setting of CONFIG:AF LIM.

Wes  N7WS

On 9/22/2019 12:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote:

Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night 
was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC 
off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does 
the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the 
AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does 
not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . 
or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end 
up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 

Any idea what is going on?

73

Conrad PA5Y


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[Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?

[Conrad PA5Y]

Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night 
was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC 
off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does 
the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the 
AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does 
not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . 
or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end 
up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort 

Any idea what is going on?

73

Conrad PA5Y
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Wes Stewart]

So if I slowly turn down the gain on one of your "pro audio" amplifiers and the 
gain slope changes but remains a straight line that's distortion?


On 3/7/2017 4:11 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

...

And I'll repeat my previous observation that a signal path with gain that 
varies with time or with the signal amplitude is NOT a linear device, and 
non-linearity => distortion.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Richard Ferch]

> AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather slowly
and DOES NOT change the "dynamic range."

Exactly. AGC changes the receiver's gain between two points in time, not
between two signals arriving at the same time.

I believe changing the AGC settings does improve the "mush" situation in
CW, but the reasoning is more subtle than a simple picture based on dynamic
range alone.

Consider a situation where there are two CW signals, one at S8 sending
mostly dits, and another weaker one at S7 sending mostly dahs. If the AGC
threshold is well above the strength of either signal (or AGC is off), you
will be able to tell when a dit from the stronger signal ends even if a
simultaneous weaker dah is continuing, because of the change in signal
level when the dit stops. In other words, you will hear the dits from the
stronger signal riding in above the lower-volume-level dahs.

Now suppose the AGC threshold is below both signals, say at S6, and the
slope of the gain curve is flat (i.e. the SLP is set to its maximum value).
For now, assume a perfectly instantaneous AGC decay time (super-fast AGC).
Then regardless of whether one signal or both is/are currently "on", the
AGC will immediately adjust the gain to clamp the signal strength to the S6
level. In other words, even after the stronger dit finishes, the weaker but
longer-lasting dah will still be at the same perceived volume, and you
won't be able to tell when the dit ended. Result: you just hear the
combination of two signals at a constant volume, i.e. "mush". If there are
only the two signals, when both are "off" the gain will increase, raising
the perceived noise level, but that's not the "mush" problem, it's the
"noisy receiver" problem. If there are a lot of signals at or above the
threshold, then the "mush" would be more or less continuous.

In the real world, the AGC time constant will affect this. If the decay
time is long enough (as in slow AGC settings as used for SSB), you might
hear the audio volume drop immediately after the end of a strong dit and
then rise during a continuing weaker dah, whereas if the decay time is very
short, you might hear the brief drop in volume only as a blip in an
otherwise constant-level sound. But at first blush I would think this would
be a secondary effect compared to the main effect of adjusting the AGC
threshold to be above or below the level of the signals.

As far as I can see, none of the above applies to RTTY, which is nominally
a constant-amplitude signal. Whether the signal is above or below the AGC
threshold, the ratio of the instantaneous mark and space signals will be
the same (unless one of them is on the skirts of the filter bandpass). Even
if there are two signals on the same frequency, the differences in relative
strengths of mark and space from the two signals would not be affected by
AGC, although the overall amplitude might be.

I don't know enough about how RTTY decoders work to guess at whether a
constant-level signal (aggressive AGC) vs. a time-varying signal level (no
or weaker AGC) would have an effect on decoding, but the same reasoning
that applies to CW "mush" does not appear to me to be relevant.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Jim Brown]

Wes and Ed,

It's important to realize that in the K3 and later Elecraft rigs, all of 
this is happening in the digital domain. One thing we learned about DSP 
in pro audio is that dynamics processing burns a LOT processor cycles. 
DSP SIMULATES the behavior of analog circuitry, but depending on the 
code and the processor, the quality of the emulation can be varying 
degrees of ideal.


ALSO -- those of us who have worked in broadcast audio know that 
dynamics processing can be a VERY complex business, especially when 
you're trying to do a lot of it, and even with a budget far larger than 
in a ham rig. Even in analog, it's tricky to do a LOT of gain change and 
still sound good. A handful of designers were good at it, and made a lot 
of money for themselves, or their employer, or both.


And I'll repeat my previous observation that a signal path with gain 
that varies with time or with the signal amplitude is NOT a linear 
device, and non-linearity => distortion.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/7/2017 1:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
 AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather 
slowly and DOES NOT change the "dynamic range."


If you're listening to a signal and it's too loud for your ears and 
you turn the audio gain down 10 dB, does that change the amplitude 
ratio of any signal you're listening to?  No, it lowers everything by 
10 dB.  AGC is no different, it just operates at another location in 
the radio.


IMHO, this thinking is the result of looking at too many ACG slope, 
threshold, and phase of the moon charts and assuming that bigger 
signals have their gain reduced more that smaller ones at the same 
instant in time.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/7/2017 2:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote:
Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the 
receiver.
The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each 
instant in

time to make bit decisions.  AGC reduces those differences and thus
increases the bit error rate.

Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so 
that the

dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the
decoder.  But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases 
the error

rate of the decoder.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Wes Stewart]

 AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather slowly and 
DOES NOT change the "dynamic range."


If you're listening to a signal and it's too loud for your ears and you turn the 
audio gain down 10 dB, does that change the amplitude ratio of any signal you're 
listening to?  No, it lowers everything by 10 dB.  AGC is no different, it just 
operates at another location in the radio.


IMHO, this thinking is the result of looking at too many ACG slope, threshold, 
and phase of the moon charts and assuming that bigger signals have their gain 
reduced more that smaller ones at the same instant in time.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/7/2017 2:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote:

Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver.
The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in
time to make bit decisions.  AGC reduces those differences and thus
increases the bit error rate.

Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the
dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the
decoder.  But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error
rate of the decoder.

Ed W0YK
_


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Alan Bloom]

If the AGC is working right, it is equivalent to manually riding the RF 
gain control.  It shouldn't affect the decoding.


If the AGC time constant is too fast then, yes, it can cause distortion 
and degrade the decoding.  But that should never happen in a 
properly-designed AGC system.


AGC makes the decoder's job easier, not harder, because it reduces the 
dynamic range the decoder has to deal with.


Alan N1AL


On 03/07/2017 01:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote:

Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver.
The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in
time to make bit decisions.  AGC reduces those differences and thus
increases the bit error rate.

Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the
dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the
decoder.  But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error
rate of the decoder.

Ed W0YK
_

-Original Message-
From: Bill Frantz [mailto:fra...@pwpconsult.com]
Sent: 07 March, 2017 13:05
To: e...@w0yk.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my
riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of
automation affects decoder performance. It should help
performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to
work with. Please explain.

Thanks - Bill AE6JV

On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote:


Just the opposite.  Most digital signal decoders work best with the least
AGC action possible, even AGC Off.  AGC constrains decoder performance.

Ed W0YK
_

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Frantz
...
Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not
have to deal with a big range, while using something with more
dynamic range for voice/CW.


---
Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos,
CA 95032



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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Ed Muns]

Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver.
The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in
time to make bit decisions.  AGC reduces those differences and thus
increases the bit error rate.

Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the
dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the
decoder.  But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error
rate of the decoder.

Ed W0YK
_

-Original Message-
From: Bill Frantz [mailto:fra...@pwpconsult.com] 
Sent: 07 March, 2017 13:05
To: e...@w0yk.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my 
riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of 
automation affects decoder performance. It should help 
performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to 
work with. Please explain.

Thanks - Bill AE6JV

On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote:

>Just the opposite.  Most digital signal decoders work best with the least
>AGC action possible, even AGC Off.  AGC constrains decoder performance.
>
>Ed W0YK
>_
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
>Frantz
>...
>Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not 
>have to deal with a big range, while using something with more 
>dynamic range for voice/CW.

---
Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Bill Frantz]

What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my 
riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of 
automation affects decoder performance. It should help 
performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to 
work with. Please explain.


Thanks - Bill AE6JV

On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote:


Just the opposite.  Most digital signal decoders work best with the least
AGC action possible, even AGC Off.  AGC constrains decoder performance.

Ed W0YK
_

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Frantz
...
Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not 
have to deal with a big range, while using something with more 
dynamic range for voice/CW.


---
Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Ed Muns]

Just the opposite.  Most digital signal decoders work best with the least
AGC action possible, even AGC Off.  AGC constrains decoder performance.

Ed W0YK
_

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Frantz
Sent: 05 March, 2017 23:17
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

Thanks Al. A very useful paper.

Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have 
to deal with a big range, while using something with more 
dynamic range for voice/CW.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/6/17 at 9:50 PM, alor...@sbcglobal.net (Al Lorona) wrote:

>I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet 
>another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements 
>and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may 
>benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by 
>demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you 
>think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to 
>you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link:
>
>
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%2
0K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=
>0
>
>
>I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are
interested.

---
Bill Frantz| Security is like Government  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | services. The market doesn't | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Don Wilhelm]

Brian,

The effect of reducing the RF Gain is *about* the same as increasing the 
AGC threshold.  Not quite, but that is a simplistic way of looking at it.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/6/2017 6:13 PM, Brian Hunt wrote:

I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I rarely 
operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise peaks are 
barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm moving the curve 
to the right?  I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the AGC kicks in for a 
given THR number?

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper

[Igor Sokolov]

Jim,

I am competitive mainly when I go on expeditions and operate from semi 
rare countries like 8Q7 or 6V7 or CT3. Finding clear run frequency from 
there is not a problem. On the other hand carrying extra box and using 
big screen there is a problem. Therefore P3 for me is not justifiable  
expense so far.


When at home I mainly operate from friend's station which is equipped 
with pair of K3s and pair of P3 but again P3s have pretty limited use 
due to some other reasons.


73, Igor UA9CDC


07.03.2017 1:04, Jim Brown пишет:

On Mon,3/6/2017 11:42 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would make me 
finally purchase P3. 



Igor,

While it's a nice idea, it may or may not be possible to implement. 
BUT -- we're both pretty active contesters, and I wouldn't dream of 
working a contest without one. The SVGA card makes it even more useful 
-- the waterfall can be set to provide 2 minutes on screen, which 
really helps when trying to find a run frequency. You can look at the 
patterns to see which frequencies have someone running, and even when 
skip doesn't let you see the run station, you often see his callers. A 
waterfall tweaked for lots of averaging is great for finding weak 
signals on a band that is barely open. And a P3 is great for chasing 
down sources of RX noise.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Matt Murphy]

Is there a way to simulate different agc settings by generating sine wave
CW signals and varying the relevant parameters?

I'd like to write some code to allow for straightforward observation of the
phenomena we are discussing and various assumptions about the input signals
to be tested.

It should be possible to create "mush" and also the desired response, I
would think. It would be useful to those wishing to understand the theory
in a more concrete way.

Matt NQ6N

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:14 PM Brian Hunt  wrote:

> I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I
> rarely operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise
> peaks are barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm
> moving the curve to the right?  I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the
> AGC kicks in for a given THR number?
>
> Nice presentation Al. Thanks.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> > On Mar 5, 2017, at 21:50, Al Lorona  wrote:
> >
> > I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another
> K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the
> results down in the hope that others may benefit.
>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Brian Hunt]

I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I rarely 
operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise peaks are 
barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm moving the curve 
to the right?  I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the AGC kicks in for a 
given THR number?

Nice presentation Al. Thanks. 

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

> On Mar 5, 2017, at 21:50, Al Lorona  wrote:
> 
> I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC 
> (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results 
> down in the hope that others may benefit. 

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/6/2017 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Actually it responds to the integral of all the signals in the
passband, but if there is a single stronger one it will predominate.


In truth, depending on the AGC *attack time constant* the AGC system
responds to the *instantaneous peak voltage* of all signals in the
passband.  Even for two signals where one signal is *only* 10 dB
stronger than the other, the *instantaneous peak voltage* can be as
much as 20 dB greater than the stronger signal alone.

With multiple signals, e.g. a large pile-up, and [relatively] slow
attack times, the instantaneous peak voltage can drive the ADC into
clipping before the AGC can react while with very fast attack and
decay times AGC can "pump" the receiver gain at a syllabic rate and
further "muddy" the recovered audio.

Steady state (single signal, single tone) measurements can show the
general AGC behavior but it is still an "art" to find the best
combination of attack time, decay time, threshold, slope (gain
reduction) above the threshold, "hold" times and *overall gain*
to keep peak signal voltages below the ADC clipping point and
simultaneously keeping the AGC response from "pumping" receiver
gain in such a way as to generate IMD (mush).

The key here is the *DYNAMIC* response of the AGC system.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/6/2017 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Wes is correct.  Let me say it in a slightly different way.
The AGC simply reduces the gain of the receiver - and it will respond
mainly to the strongest signal in the passband.  Actually it responds to
the integral of all the signals in the passband, but if there is a
single stronger one it will predominate.

When the receiver gain is reduced, ALL the signals will be
proportionally reduced in amplitude - including the weaker ones.  This
is often referred to as "AGC Pumping".

73,
Don W3FPR



On 3/6/2017 1:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph:

   "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range
of the
   signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is
   designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger
signals
   get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude
range.
   This is the desired response."

I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading
to the unwary.  AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply
lowers the gain through the receiver.  The range (difference between)
signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB
everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven
into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that
should be the only reduction in range.

Al continues:

   "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even
though
   in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal,
because
   of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units
louder.
   This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal
   produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal
produces -4.2
   dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been
reduced to a
   less-than-two S-unit difference."

Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving
both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio
between them from 5 S-units to two S-units.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[brian]

For curiosity we looked at the lower end of the curve with SpectrumLab 
having a 0.27 Hz effective noise bandwidth at audio.


The K3 (not S here) shows AF linearity to more than 40 dB below S1!

So you guys with a low noise floor and ultra narrow digital modes could 
potentially do wonders.


73 de Brian/K3KO

On 3/6/2017 15:11 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:

Very nice Al  Thanks.

73,

Fred KE7X




From: Elecraft <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on behalf of Al Lorona 
<alor...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 10:50 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) 
"white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in 
the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by 
demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things 
in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the 
following link:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0


I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested.

73,

Al  W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper

[Fred Jensen]

I think about it as follows:

THR: The signal level at which AGC action begins.  Lower number = lower 
signal level where AGC begins.


SLP: Wayne is an EE and I'll bet he views SLP as the degree of gain 
compression in the AGC system.  Thus, higher SLP values mean a higher 
amount of "compression" [and more flat] curve after threshold.


I'm a math dude, not an EE, and I view "slope" as the first derivative 
of the AGC gain function ... which is unfortunately exactly backwards to 
the way it really works.  I get around this by assuming "SLP" is a 
really weird acronym for COMPRESSION and not for SLOPE.


Maybe that will help you.

73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 3/5/2017 11:29 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the
direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or
decrease the number to achieve my intended result?


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,3/6/2017 11:42 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would make me 
finally purchase P3. 



Igor,

While it's a nice idea, it may or may not be possible to implement. BUT 
-- we're both pretty active contesters, and I wouldn't dream of working 
a contest without one. The SVGA card makes it even more useful -- the 
waterfall can be set to provide 2 minutes on screen, which really helps 
when trying to find a run frequency. You can look at the patterns to see 
which frequencies have someone running, and even when skip doesn't let 
you see the run station, you often see his callers. A waterfall tweaked 
for lots of averaging is great for finding weak signals on a band that 
is barely open. And a P3 is great for chasing down sources of RX noise.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,3/6/2017 11:29 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
This is often referred to as "AGC Pumping". 


Yes, BUT -- there is distortion associated with AGC action, and that 
distortion is what is perceived as "mush."


[Remember that the fundamental definition of distortion is "anything in 
the output that's not the input multiplied by a constant. Distortion can 
include time-variable gain, non-constant amplitude and phase response as 
a function of time or frequency, and amplitude non-linearity, variable 
time response. ALL of these distortions have the potential for confusing 
the ear-brain when trying to get intelligence from a signal, or 
providing aural satisfaction when listening to music. The K2 provides a 
great example. It sounds great and audio is easy to copy when listening 
to a SSB signal through the TX filter, but sounds awful and makes copy 
very difficult when the crystal filters are stagger tuned to provide 
narrower bandwidth. That's because the frequency response is pretty flat 
for the TX filter, but looks like a side view of the Rocky Mountains 
with the stagger tuned filters, and because every change in amplitude 
response is accompanied by non-constant phase response.]


More important -- this "mush" problem is NOT a theoretical concept -- 
the problem has been experienced by hundreds of great CW operators in 
contests and DX pileups. Those operators have, by careful experimenting 
based on their understanding of how AGC works, and by listening to the 
results of tweaking AGC parameters, developed settings that SOLVE THE 
PROBLEM. Caps added for emphasis. In general, their solutions are quite 
similar, differing only in degree.


This is NOT a problem for casual contesters or DXers, who either don't 
call CQ in contests or don't have a big enough station or a callsign 
that's rare enough in a given contest to generate a pileup. Most of the 
time I'm operating I fall into the first category, but occasionally the 
second. I've tried the recommendations of several top CW contesters, and 
I do agree that the result is making multiple callers easier for my 
brain to separate.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper

[Igor Sokolov]

Eric,
Thank you. This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would 
make me finally purchase P3.

I am sure Elecraft is listening.

73, Igor UA9CDC

06.03.2017 12:29, Erik Basilier пишет:

Al, your paper looks very helpful for the situation when the concepts need
to be studied. After one has a reasonable understanding of the concepts, the
stituation that comes up now and then is wanting to change some of the AGC
parameters in the K3. I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the
direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or
decrease the number to achieve my intended result? That is not about
understanding the concepts, but simply about an arbitrary definition that
can be equally "right" whether it is one way or the other. There are many
other examples of K3 parameters that have names that don't fully describe
what they do. Of course, the parameter names must be (too) short because of
the display limitations. However, when one has a P3, that opens up a whole
different world in terms of graphic displays. It seems to me that something
like an AGC curve could be displayed graphically (as in your paper) right
when the parameter is being changed. That way one would not have to worry
about a detailed definition; just turn the knob and see the effect. The
graph would be made extra helpful by the fact that the actual noise level is
visible at the same time. No doubt other K3 parameters could become more
user-friendly if treated in a similar way.

  


73,

Erik K7TV

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Don Wilhelm]

Wes is correct.  Let me say it in a slightly different way.
The AGC simply reduces the gain of the receiver - and it will respond 
mainly to the strongest signal in the passband.  Actually it responds to 
the integral of all the signals in the passband, but if there is a 
single stronger one it will predominate.


When the receiver gain is reduced, ALL the signals will be 
proportionally reduced in amplitude - including the weaker ones.  This 
is often referred to as "AGC Pumping".


73,
Don W3FPR



On 3/6/2017 1:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph:

   "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range
of the
   signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is
   designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger
signals
   get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude
range.
   This is the desired response."

I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading
to the unwary.  AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply
lowers the gain through the receiver.  The range (difference between)
signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB
everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven
into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that
should be the only reduction in range.

Al continues:

   "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even
though
   in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal,
because
   of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units
louder.
   This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal
   produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal
produces -4.2
   dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been
reduced to a
   less-than-two S-unit difference."

Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving
both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio
between them from 5 S-units to two S-units.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Al Lorona]

Yup, I knew that would cause confusion. That's NOT what I meant. I meant that 
if you listen to ONE signal at a time, their apparent amplitudes do not reflect 
reality, because of the AGC. If BOTH signals are present in the passband at the 
same time, then my comments DO NOT apply. I was ONLY talking about hearing ONE 
signal AT A TIME.

NONE of my discussion EVER presupposed more than ONE signal being received at a 
time.

THANK YOU. :^)


I am beginning to believe that it's impossible to shed any more light on this 
topic. It continues to be one of the most misunderstood areas of all, and I'm 
not sure if any effort can clear up the confusion without adding more confusion 
of its own. At least, I know I've failed! The next time someone asks a question 
about AGC, I'm going to chomp down on a towel, duct tape my arms to the chair, 
and start my breathing exercises: deep breath hold. exhale. 
again.


Al  W6LX







From: Wes Stewart <wes_n...@triconet.org>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper


In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph:

"The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the
signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is
designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals
get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range.
This is the desired response."

I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the 
unwary.  AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain 
through the receiver.  The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 
dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If 
lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain 
reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range.

Al continues:

"But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though
in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because
of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder.
This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal
produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2
dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a
less-than-two S-unit difference."

Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an 
S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 
5 
S-units to two S-units.

Hence, I suspect that "mush" the proponents believe that AGC somehow magically 
reduces the amplitude of the stronger signal that activates the AGC but allows 
the weaker ones to have full gain, so that they "catch up" and become 
indistinguishable from the stronger one.  That's a limiting receiver, nice for 
FM, not so nice for CW/SSB.

All IMHO, of course,

Wes  N7WS




  On 3/5/2017 10:50 PM, Al Lorona wrote:
> I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC 
> (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results 
> down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand 
> AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you 
> think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the 
> document in my Dropbox at the following link:
>  
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0
>
>
> I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are 
> interested.
>
> 73,
>
> Al  W6LX
> __
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> Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Wes Stewart]

In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph:

   "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the
   signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is
   designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals
   get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range.
   This is the desired response."

I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the 
unwary.  AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain 
through the receiver.  The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 
dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If 
lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain 
reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range.


Al continues:

   "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though
   in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because
   of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder.
   This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal
   produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2
   dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a
   less-than-two S-unit difference."

Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an 
S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 5 
S-units to two S-units.


Hence, I suspect that "mush" the proponents believe that AGC somehow magically 
reduces the amplitude of the stronger signal that activates the AGC but allows 
the weaker ones to have full gain, so that they "catch up" and become 
indistinguishable from the stronger one.  That's a limiting receiver, nice for 
FM, not so nice for CW/SSB.


All IMHO, of course,

Wes  N7WS



 On 3/5/2017 10:50 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) 
"white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in 
the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by 
demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things 
in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the 
following link:
  


https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0


I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested.

73,

Al  W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)]

Very nice report - thanks!



-
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications: 
http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-White-Paper-tp7627649p7627677.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Cady, Fred]

Very nice Al  Thanks.

73,

Fred KE7X




From: Elecraft <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on behalf of Al Lorona 
<alor...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 10:50 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC 
(YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results 
down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC 
better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think 
about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the 
document in my Dropbox at the following link:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0


I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested.

73,

Al  W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC with Dual Receivers

[Don Wilhelm]

Chuck,

If you look at the chart of CONFIG menu listings, all menu items that 
have [SUB] indicated are separate settings for the main and the subRX.


There is no such indicator for the AGC parameters, indicating that those 
menu entries apply to both the main and the subRX.


The AGC parameters *are* Tech mode entries, so you have to set TECH MD 
to on before you can see them.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/6/2017 8:24 AM, Chuck Guenther wrote:

I've been using my trusty K3 for years with a single receiver, and
frequently experiment with AGC THR and SLP settings for best DX
reception.  As I seldom am in a position to "Run" stations, I have not
been bothered by what has been referred to as "pileup mush," except
perhaps when I switch briefly to VFO B to comb through a DX pileup.  My
main concern with AGC is to protect my ears, so I tend to use one of the
nearly flat slope settings. BTW, I really like the AGC action in my KX2.

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC with Dual Receivers

[Chuck Guenther]

I've been using my trusty K3 for years with a single receiver, and 
frequently experiment with AGC THR and SLP settings for best DX 
reception.  As I seldom am in a position to "Run" stations, I have not 
been bothered by what has been referred to as "pileup mush," except 
perhaps when I switch briefly to VFO B to comb through a DX pileup.  My 
main concern with AGC is to protect my ears, so I tend to use one of the 
nearly flat slope settings. BTW, I really like the AGC action in my KX2.


I recently sent my K3 to Elecraft for installation of many 
procrastinated hardware upgrades, including a second receiver. From my 
reading of the manuals, I gather that I can adjust each receiver 
independently, and can use different AGC settings on each.  Am I 
correct?  If so, it seems like (for DX'ing purposes anyway) I might want 
vastly different AGC settings for my left and right ears.  I am thinking 
I might want one set of AGC parameters for optimum reception of a weak 
DX station, and another set of parameters setup to listen to the howling 
hordes in the pileup. Surely others have done this (if it is indeed 
possible).  How does this work out in practice?


Thanks & 73,

Chuck Guenther  NI0C

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[Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper

[Erik Basilier]

Al, your paper looks very helpful for the situation when the concepts need
to be studied. After one has a reasonable understanding of the concepts, the
stituation that comes up now and then is wanting to change some of the AGC
parameters in the K3. I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the
direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or
decrease the number to achieve my intended result? That is not about
understanding the concepts, but simply about an arbitrary definition that
can be equally "right" whether it is one way or the other. There are many
other examples of K3 parameters that have names that don't fully describe
what they do. Of course, the parameter names must be (too) short because of
the display limitations. However, when one has a P3, that opens up a whole
different world in terms of graphic displays. It seems to me that something
like an AGC curve could be displayed graphically (as in your paper) right
when the parameter is being changed. That way one would not have to worry
about a detailed definition; just turn the knob and see the effect. The
graph would be made extra helpful by the fact that the actual noise level is
visible at the same time. No doubt other K3 parameters could become more
user-friendly if treated in a similar way.

 

73,

Erik K7TV

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Bill Frantz]

Thanks Al. A very useful paper.

Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have 
to deal with a big range, while using something with more 
dynamic range for voice/CW.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/6/17 at 9:50 PM, alor...@sbcglobal.net (Al Lorona) wrote:

I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet 
another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements 
and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may 
benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by 
demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you 
think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to 
you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link:



https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=
0


I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested.


---
Bill Frantz| Security is like Government  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | services. The market doesn't | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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[Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper

[Al Lorona]

I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC 
(YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results 
down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC 
better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think 
about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the 
document in my Dropbox at the following link:
 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0


I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. 

73,

Al  W6LX
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[Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Cady, Fred]

Hi All,
It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it 
might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using.  It you want to 
reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them.
My numbers are:
AF LIM 20 (probably a little high)
THR 12 (about S5)
SLP 0 (best slope)
DCY Soft
HLD 0.3
PLS NOR
AGC-F 120
AGC-S 20

Thanks and 73,
Fred KE7X


Fred Cady
fcady at ieee dot org
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Ian White]

The K3 can become many different rigs for different people. The AGC
characteristics are the most configurable of all, so the survey won't be
meaningful without one more key question: 

* For what kind of operating?


73 from Ian GM3SEK


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-
boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Cady, Fred
Sent: 04 December 2013 21:28
To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

Hi All,
It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51)
so it
might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using.  It you
want
to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them.
My numbers are:
AF LIM 20 (probably a little high)
THR 12 (about S5)
SLP 0 (best slope)
DCY Soft
HLD 0.3
PLS NOR
AGC-F 120
AGC-S 20

Thanks and 73,
Fred KE7X


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Gary Gregory]

Plus I suspect an individuals hearing also effects what settings are used?

Still, Fred has no doubtgot a use for theinfo but for me, I am in the US
till February so no K3 here to make some notes.

Brr...and I am freezing. ?

Gary
On 05/12/2013 7:28 AM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote:

 Hi All,
 It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so
 it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using.  It you
 want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them.
 My numbers are:
 AF LIM 20 (probably a little high)
 THR 12 (about S5)
 SLP 0 (best slope)
 DCY Soft
 HLD 0.3
 PLS NOR
 AGC-F 120
 AGC-S 20

 Thanks and 73,
 Fred KE7X


 Fred Cady
 fcady at ieee dot org
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Cady, Fred]

Good thinking Ian. I have a one track mind - CW contesting.  Mode and kind of 
operating is important too.
73,
Fred

Fred Cady
fcady at ieee dot org
 -Original Message-
 From: Ian White [mailto:gm3...@ifwtech.co.uk]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 3:19 PM
 To: Cady, Fred; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

 The K3 can become many different rigs for different people. The AGC
 characteristics are the most configurable of all, so the survey won't
 be
 meaningful without one more key question:

 * For what kind of operating?


 73 from Ian GM3SEK


 -Original Message-
 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-
 boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Cady, Fred
 Sent: 04 December 2013 21:28
 To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
 Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
 
 Hi All,
 It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51)
 so it
 might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using.  It you
 want
 to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post
 them.
 My numbers are:
 AF LIM 20 (probably a little high)
 THR 12 (about S5)
 SLP 0 (best slope)
 DCY Soft
 HLD 0.3
 PLS NOR
 AGC-F 120
 AGC-S 20
 
 Thanks and 73,
 Fred KE7X
 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Nate Bargmann]

My numbers are:
AF LIM 030
THR 010
SLP 008
DCY Nor
HLD 0.00
PLS NOR
AGC-F 120
AGC-S 020

The only variables I have experimented with are THR and SLP.  I mostly
operate phone with some CW and I really don't have any objections to the
way my K3 works.

73, de Nate 

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Jeff Cochrane]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:28:19 +1000, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu  
wrote:

Whatever the defaults are, that is what I am using.
I have had no need nor want to change them. (And ditto for most other  
settings in my K3, I found that it works for me 'right out of the box')

73 de
--
Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
East Innisfail
QLD, Australia


Hi All,
It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so  
it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using.  It you  
want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post  
them.

My numbers are:
AF LIM 20 (probably a little high)
THR 12 (about S5)
SLP 0 (best slope)
DCY Soft
HLD 0.3
PLS NOR
AGC-F 120
AGC-S 20

Thanks and 73,
Fred KE7X


Fred Cady
fcady at ieee dot org

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey

[Bill Frantz]

When I got my K3 I was a relatively new ham. I was delighted 
that the default settings were good usable values. Having a good 
starting point was valuable in learning how to use radios and 
the K3 in particular. Kudos to Elecraft.


Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 12/5/13 at 5:45 PM, jeffvk...@gmail.com (Jeff Cochrane) wrote:


Whatever the defaults are, that is what I am using.
I have had no need nor want to change them. (And ditto for most 
other settings in my K3, I found that it works for me 'right 
out of the box')


-
Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW

[Chad Wasinger]

Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for receiving 
weak cw signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my settings for 
listening to at the noise 2 meter and 6 meter beacons. 
Thanks!ChadN0YK   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW

[Chad Wasinger]

Thanks for the explanation and plot. I will try your settings for the 
slope/threshold. I do run a mast-mount SP-2000 for 2 meters with the internal 
K144XV, works well together. I have not added a preamp on 6 meters yet.

 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:28:55 +
 From: als...@nc.rr.com
 To: chadwasin...@outlook.com
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW
 
 Chad,
 
 AGC doesn't kick in till way above weak signal on any reasonable values 
 of THR and slope.  Of course a mast mounted preamp on 2M would help a 
 lot.  One can get by with a back of the rig preamp for 6M.  The stock K3 
 is deaf on 6M.  For weak CW signal DXing, I had to add 15 db of low NF 
 preamp gain.  Managed to finally finish 6M DXCC last year.
 
 The prevailing DXer's are all over the map on where to set the threshold
 on HF bands.
 
 I've decided to set slope/threshold to 12/12 here based upon some 
 measurements.   Attached is the curve I generated.
 
 The threshold determines where the AGC action starts.  The slope is how 
 fast the audio rises with increasing signal above this point.
 
 73 de Brian/K3KO
 
 
 On 1/17/2013 16:15, Chad Wasinger wrote:
  Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for
  receiving weak cw signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my
  settings for listening to at the noise 2 meter and 6 meter
  beacons. Thanks!ChadN0YK
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW

[Don Wilhelm]

Chad,

You will be better off setting the AGC parameters to match your 
operating needs.
Go to my website www.w3fpr.com and read the article on Noisy K3 to 
guilde you.
The menu parameters have been expanded since that article was written, 
but the principles are the same, but they now cover a greater range.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/17/2013 11:15 AM, Chad Wasinger wrote:

Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for receiving weak cw 
signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my settings for listening to at the 
noise 2 meter and 6 meter beacons.
Thanks!ChadN0YK 



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[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings used in CQ WW CW

[Steve Ireland]

G'day

 

Prior to the CQ WW CW contest, I did some experimentation with the K3 AGC
settings (rev 4.51 firmware). I started with the AGC SLP set to 0 and the
AGC THR to 8.  After some problems with the AGC action on stronger signals
(S9 to S9 plus), I increased the SLP to 2 and found that there was no longer
any need to turn the AGC off and ride the RF gain on these signals. 

 

These settings worked well for me here in Western Australia, but the signal
levels aren't as high as they would be in Europe or North America. 

 

Vy 73

 

Steve, VK6VZ

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51

[Richard Lee]

Hello All,

I own a K3, am running MCU 4.51, and operate virtually 100% cw. With 
respect to MCU 4.51, I note that the software site says,


AGC IMPROVEMENTS: AGC threshold (CONFIG:AGC THR) can now be set much 
higher, and the AGC has better (more monotonic) response curves. Greatly 
improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or dense-signal 
situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher. NR and 
Auto-Notch can be used at all threshold settings.


I set the AGC threshold up to 12 and find that stronger signals are too 
loud and strident, while weak signals are almost inaudible. I have the 
AGC decay on 'soft'; AGC hold on 0.00; AGC pls on 'nor'; AGC slp on 010, 
AGC F(ast) at 120.

I'd like to survey K3 users (using MCU 4.51) WHO ARE SERIOUS CW CONTEST 
OPS WHO LIKE TO RUN, as to their preferred AGC settings (all of them, 
not just threshold).

Thanks much for the input from the cw contesters who like to run!

73,
-Rich, W2EG


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51

[Dave Hachadorian]

Here are my AGC settings:

AGC Decay: soft
Hld: 0.2
Pls: nor
Slp: 0
Thr: 20
F: 200
AF lim: nor 030

Here are my observations, using those settings, during WPX CW:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Rev-4-51-firmware-what-AGC-settings-worked-on-big-pile-ups-with-loud-AND-weak-signals-in-the-WPX-td7556676.html#a7556700

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona




-Original Message- 
From: Richard Lee
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 2:07 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51

Hello All,

I own a K3, am running MCU 4.51, and operate virtually 100% cw.
With
respect to MCU 4.51, I note that the software site says,


AGC IMPROVEMENTS: AGC threshold (CONFIG:AGC THR) can now be set
much
higher, and the AGC has better (more monotonic) response curves.
Greatly
improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
dense-signal
situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher. NR and
Auto-Notch can be used at all threshold settings.


I set the AGC threshold up to 12 and find that stronger signals
are too
loud and strident, while weak signals are almost inaudible. I
have the
AGC decay on 'soft'; AGC hold on 0.00; AGC pls on 'nor'; AGC slp
on 010,
AGC F(ast) at 120.

I'd like to survey K3 users (using MCU 4.51) WHO ARE SERIOUS CW
CONTEST
OPS WHO LIKE TO RUN, as to their preferred AGC settings (all of
them,
not just threshold).

Thanks much for the input from the cw contesters who like to run!

73,
-Rich, W2EG

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[Elecraft] K3 - AGC Slope and Hold

[N2TK, Tony]

With firmware 4.51 what seems to be the consensus for contesting, both SSB
and CW for AGC Slope and Hold settings?

Still playing with settings. We get strong US/EU pileups and a mixture of
strong and weak pileups from AS. Presently using SLP=1, THR=9.

Anything special about any of the other AGC settings?

 

Getting ready for KP2M.

 

73,

N2TK, Tony

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC Version 4.51 signal measurements

[Cady, Fred]

Hi all,
Like many, I haven't been able to find a decent pileup the last few days
to test the version 4.51 AGC. I don't use the NR or notch function
either so have concentrated on making some measurements using the XG3 as
a signal generator.

The figure on
http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/agc-4-51 shows
some measurements I did with the 4.51 version AGC using the XG3 as a
signal generator. For each of the three signal levels from the XG3 --
-107, -73, and -33 dBm, I used the 10 dB attenuator and 10 dB preamp to
get 9 different signal levels.

Observations:

As THR increases, the effect of SLP decreases. At THR=20, SLP is
essential 15 for all values of SLP (I tested SLP=0, 7, and 15). This is
the upper curve on the figure. As THR decreases, SLP begins to take
effect. At THR=15, SLP values between 0 and 7 are the same while between
7 and 15 an effect is seen. At THR=8 the full range of SLP is effective.

Changing SLP behavior as a function of THR has been done to protect the
user's ears.

73 and cheers,
Fred, KE7X

The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
www.ke7x.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Version 4.51 signal measurements

[Wayne Burdick]

Cady, Fred wrote:


 Observations:

 As THR increases, the effect of SLP decreases.Changing SLP  
 behavior as a function of THR has been done to protect the user's  
 ears.

Correct.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[W4CCS]

Hi All:

Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it.

de W4CCS


On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available
 later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will
 fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Short version: It's still in the kitchen.

Long version:

This is still in pre-beta, being evaluated by a goodly number of hams
who volunteered to test it before all the cooties were cleaned out.
Some number of issues have been ferreted out, a couple serious, and
there were some deliberate omissions to start, which after Wayne deals
with them and reissues a public beta, won't be there to torture the
rest of the adoptees.  Historically these pre-beta's have sometimes
gone through as many as 4 or 5 pre-beta cycles before being seen on
the web site...and for good reason :).

If you don't like running into cooties, you'll just have to wait it
out.  Or if that sounds like a fun game, send a note direct to Wayne
(not the reflector) to join the pre-beta self-flagellation club. Just
be warned that you run into stuff in the pre-beta club.  That's the
point.

73, Guy.

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:58 AM, W4CCS w4...@w4ccs.com wrote:
 Hi All:

 Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it.

 de W4CCS


 On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available
 later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will
 fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

The last word from Aptos was that they were still testing the new 
changes.  I am sure they will release it to beta when it is ready.

-- 
Mike W0MU

W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[W4CCS]

No thanks Guy. I'll just wait for the brave ones to work out all the 
cooties..

Thanks

W4CCS


On 5/10/2012 11:32 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 Short version: It's still in the kitchen.

 Long version:

 This is still in pre-beta, being evaluated by a goodly number of hams
 who volunteered to test it before all the cooties were cleaned out.
 Some number of issues have been ferreted out, a couple serious, and
 there were some deliberate omissions to start, which after Wayne deals
 with them and reissues a public beta, won't be there to torture the
 rest of the adoptees.  Historically these pre-beta's have sometimes
 gone through as many as 4 or 5 pre-beta cycles before being seen on
 the web site...and for good reason :).

 If you don't like running into cooties, you'll just have to wait it
 out.  Or if that sounds like a fun game, send a note direct to Wayne
 (not the reflector) to join the pre-beta self-flagellation club. Just
 be warned that you run into stuff in the pre-beta club.  That's the
 point.

 73, Guy.

 On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:58 AM, W4CCSw4...@w4ccs.com  wrote:
 Hi All:

 Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it.

 de W4CCS


 On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available
 later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will
 fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[VE3GNO Daniel]

Hi Guys,
 
Is any new  alpha fw version? I was looking into my yesterday emails but 
could't find it, I am still on 4.50/2.74. Anything new?

VE3GNO Daniel





From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com
To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available  
later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will  
fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Wayne Burdick]

Still testing.

Wayne

On May 9, 2012, at 8:42 AM, VE3GNO Daniel wrote:

 Hi Guys,

 Is any new  alpha fw version? I was looking into my yesterday emails  
 but could't find it, I am still on 4.50/2.74. Anything new?

 VE3GNO Daniel

 
 From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com
 To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

 Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available
 later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will
 fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[N5GE]

Bill,

What!

You mean you don't want them to pass it through three or four levels of
management, design, Gant chart creation, quality control and documentation
before releasing it to the developers!  

What are you?  A bloated corporation hater?
 
Remember! We owe it to the stockholders to appear we are doing a good job! ;o)

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member
Retired: :o)
F-111 Production Line Supervisor
F-16 Production Line Supervisor
Industrial Engineer
Contract Software Developer


On Mon,  7 May 2012 19:25:17 -0700, Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com wrote:

As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne 
and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks 
like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions 
are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company 
would act this way. It is very refreshing.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
[snip]

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[BobK8IA]

Compared to the many others that have weighed in already, I am a few  days 
late taking a look at the new firmware. It may have been worth the  wait.
 
In a nutshell, the new 4.50/2.74 works extremely well. I've been waiting  
for my K3 to really be able to perform in deep pileups, like I had thought it 
 should. With the new firmware, it may be very close now.
 
Even though it may be a few weeks (until CQWPX CW) when I can make a full  
evaluation, in fairly deep pileup conditions, I don't need extended testing 
to  see a big improvement already. K6LL mentioned the difference  is 
immediately obvious. I fully agree.
 
The ability to be able to extend THR settings has noticeably cleaned  
things up. My sweet spot seems to be THR=15 and SLP=0 or 2. More evaluation to  
come.
 
Tnx Elecraft Team for looking into this issue and releasing this  
pre-Beta.
 
 
 
73, Bob K8IA
Arizona Outlaws Contest Club
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Adi Toplician]

Hi everybody



In evaluating the new firmware I use 2xK3, #791 #5752

*
*

*Initial conditions*:


Rx Eq flat on booths rigs

BW 700Hz, no CW roofing only 2.7KHz (5poles)

AGC DCY –Soft

AGC SLP -003

AGC FST -100



K3 #791 THR=14-17 (usually 14)

K3 #5752 THR=5-8 (usually 7)



Test:

single signals, beacons around S3, S4

pileups 7O6T, 6O0CW



Observations:



   1. Signals appears to be cleaner with higher THR, but the difference it
   is not so big on my ears maybe because I am not dealing yet with a big
   pileup with S3/S4 signals BUT the sound is more nice and clear indeed.
   2. I have to take care more with audio level  on higher THR, and once I
   lost audio using THR=20.
   3. QSB more intense on signals with newer firmware. Sometimes I even
   lost the signal on 2.74DSP while it is still copied at 2.73DSP.
   4. Overall it is more pleasant to listen to with the new firmware
   version.

 Future tests:

   1. small expeditions in the field.
   2. make some recordings.



73! Adi

Yo2liw



-- 
==
Adrian Toplician
0721 367 850
Timisoara
YO2LIW
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Wayne Burdick]

Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available  
later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will  
fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[VE3GNO Daniel]

On my side I am ready to load it and stress little bit the radio flash with new 
build :-)
tnx Wayne

VE3GNO Daniel



From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com
To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available  
later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will  
fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported.

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Dave Hachadorian]

To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement!  It didn't 
take any extensive testing to reach that conclusion.  The 
difference is immediately obvious.

As mentioned previously, with low values of slope and high values 
of threshold, loud signals blank out with the current firmware 
release, so the most aggressive combinations can't be used now. 
Threshold 15 and slope 0 seem to work pretty well though.  I am 
listening to 20 meter cw now with two K3's.  Rig 1 has the new 
firmware, with threshold 15 and slope 0.  Rig 2 has threshold 8 
and slope 0 with the current mainstream firmware.

Rig 1 sounds MUCH cleaner, both on the loud W1AW code practice 
signal, and on the 7O6T pileup.  The pileup is not too deep on 
any one frequency, so it's not the ultimate test, but signals do 
sound much cleaner on rig 1.

If more aggressive values of slope and threshold can be 
accommodated without the blanking effect, the improvement will be 
even greater.Elecraft is definitely on the right track here. 
Thanks for working on this issue!


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona


-Original Message- 
From: Wayne Burdick
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 4:06 PM
To: Elecraft Wayne Burdick - N6KR
Subject: K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

Hi all (everyone is BCC'd on this),

As I mentioned, we've made some improvements to the K3's DSP AGC. 
No
hardware changes are being made this time. This is strictly a 
firmware
change to the MCU and DSPs.

One change will benefit the AGC at all settings: elimination of 
the
interpolation errors in the AGC onset curve. This by itself adds 
some
clarity to signals.

The other change allows the AGC THR parameter to be set to a 
higher
value -- up to 20. The original default (5) put the threshold for 
AGC
onset to around S2 or S3, and the max was 8 (about S4-S5). A 
setting
of about 11 now puts the threshold around S7, and the new max of 
20
puts it around S8-S9. Any signals below the threshold should not
activate DSP AGC at all. (Hardware AGC is not affected by the 
changes;
it still kicks in around S9+20 dB.)

Two interesting side-effects of raising the threshold: (1) noise
blanking may seem to be much more effective than before; (2) QSB 
on
weak signals may be more noticeable.

**
IMPORTANT:

Please set AGC SLP (slope) to something above 0, for now, as this
appears to cause problems.

Setting AGC THR above 8 will *temporarily disable* auto-notch and
noise reduction. The switches and NR level control will still 
behave
the same, but they will have no effect unless you set the 
threshold
back to 8 or lower. We may make the threshold per-mode in a later
release so that, for example, you could set a high threshold for 
CW
but still have a threshold of 8 or lower for other modes, 
allowing NR
and auto-notch to still work in this case.

The reason autonotch and NR must be disabled for high-threshold 
AGC is
that the dynamic range of signals can be an order of magnitude 
higher.
We'll be experimenting further to see if NR and autonotch can be
modified to still allow their use with high thresholds. But 
generally
speaking, pileup conditions in CW (the principle target) don't 
require
the use of NR, and autonotch doesn't apply to CW.
***

Keep in mind that it may be difficult to reproduce the conditions
under which in-band IMD has been reported. Most operators have 
claimed
it was caused by dozens (maybe even hundreds!) of signals in 
the S5
or lower range, all practically on top of each other. This effect 
has
gotten worse in recent years due to the prevalence of spotting. 
Short
of actually heading for a DX QTH, you may not be able to 
reproduce the
conditions accurately.

But it is true that some operators prefer a higher AGC threshold 
in
general, while allowing AGC to remain turned on. You'll now have 
that
capability with the K3. This has been touted as a difference in 
favor
of some other radios. Not any more :)

The new firmware is attached. As with a beta release, you'll need 
to
unzip (extract) the files and put them somewhere easily located,
usually on the desktop, then tell K3 Utility where to find it. 
You
must load all of the new code, so use the send all option.

Make sure after loading that your MCU is at rev 4.50 and both DSP 
and
AUX DSP at 2.74.

Please test the new code in a variety of conditions. If you have 
two
K3s, please put the new firmware on one of them, set them both up
identically, and compare them by switching the antenna between 
the two
radios.

Assuming it passes your own tests, feel free to pass it on to 
anyone
who you think might benefit from it, including those planning
DXpeditions (or even *at* a DXpedition, if they're willing and 
able to
try a new firmware load).

Also, by all means post your observations to the Elecraft 
reflector
(or elsewhere). If all goes well, we can release this as beta 
code
next week.

73,
Wayne
N6KR










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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Fred Jensen]

On 5/7/2012 1:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
 To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement!  It didn't take
 any extensive testing to reach that conclusion.  The difference is
 immediately obvious.

That's very good news.  Possibly a beta release this week or maybe next, 
I hope.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Tony Estep]

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote:

 Thanks for working on this issue!

=
This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer
satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been
defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who
have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical
situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed,
there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries
about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart
and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if
possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in
the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific
financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been
left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and
that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word.

Tony KT0NY


-- 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Doug Turnbull]

HI All,
 What do they say in the song, No one does it better.   Thank you
Elecraft, this is why so many of us are rabidly happy about your product.
It helps to have hams running the company which engineers ham radio only.

73 Doug EI2CN

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tony Estep
Sent: 07 May 2012 22:42
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote:

 Thanks for working on this issue!

=
This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer
satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been
defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who
have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical
situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed,
there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries
about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart
and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if
possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in
the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific
financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been
left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and
that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word.

Tony KT0NY


-- 
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Rick Bates]

Now if we could convince ANY vehicle manufacturer to have the same attitude,
designers that are also mechanics (without the need for an MSEE)...  Maybe
we'd have a chance to work under the hood again like we can with Elecraft.

Rick wa6nhc :o)

-Original Message-
From: Doug Turnbull
It helps to have hams running the company which engineers ham radio only.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[David F. Reed]

I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no 
Beta...

Clues for the clueless?

Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Fred Jensen]

I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the 
next week or so once the field test reports were in and they were 
satisfied with it.  It sure sounds like a really good job on the AGC, I 
guess patience is in order ... I know, hard for this list and these 
products. :-)

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 5/7/2012 3:59 PM, David F. Reed wrote:
 I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no
 Beta...

 Clues for the clueless?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Cady, Fred]

Hi Dave,
It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???

Cheers and 73,
Fred
The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
www.ke7x.com


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no
Beta...

Clues for the clueless?

Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Wayne Burdick]

I just talked to Lyle. Looks like by tomorrow we'll have a version of  
DSP code that allows NR and autonotch to be used at all threshold  
settings, and fixes the high-signal issue some had reported.

I'll send it out to everyone who got the last test version.

Wayne
N6KR


Fred Jensen wrote:

 I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the
 next week or so


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Kevin]

We in the IT business call it Alpha and you don't send it to anybody 
who can't figure out how to fix a broken system. In this case it's 
pretty easy, reset the radio and reload a backed up FW and config.

I would call what Wayne is doing this time Beta and when it is released 
on the website for general testing, Beta 2.


On 05/07/2012 06:50 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
 Hi Dave,
 It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???

 Cheers and 73,
 Fred
 The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
 www.ke7x.com


-- 
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Great!

I have sent the SW to about 5 people.

Mike W0MU

W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net


On 5/7/2012 5:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 I just talked to Lyle. Looks like by tomorrow we'll have a version of
 DSP code that allows NR and autonotch to be used at all threshold
 settings, and fixes the high-signal issue some had reported.

 I'll send it out to everyone who got the last test version.

 Wayne
 N6KR


 Fred Jensen wrote:

 I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the
 next week or so

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Bill Frantz]

As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne 
and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks 
like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions 
are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company 
would act this way. It is very refreshing.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote:

This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer
satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been
defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who
have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical
situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed,
there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries
about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart
and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if
possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in
the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific
financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been
left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and
that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word.
-
Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Beta Beta.

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote:

 Hi Dave,
 It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???

 Cheers and 73,
 Fred
 The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
 www.ke7x.com


 -Original Message-
 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
 [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed
 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM
 To: Elecraft Reflector
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

 I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no
 Beta...

 Clues for the clueless?

 Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Don Wilhelm]

Bill,

True, true -- but the situation with the KX3 is different than what has 
transpired with previous products.
Previously, the conversations of the Field Testers have been on a 
private forum.  While that is still true with the KX3, there is a lot 
more information that is in the open.  My guess is that it is due to 
the KX3 Yahoo Group, where a lot of questions are posed.  Wayne and Eric 
have been willing to respond to a number of those questions, and I 
believe that has set the stage for the present level of 'openness'.

 From my standpoint, Thank You other Elecraft customers for being 
patient while the process of final development, Field Test, and 
production ramp-up are taking place.  There are a few that expect 
immediate results to problems, but for the most part, customers have 
been very accepting of the inevitable delays in (optimistic) plans, and 
the resulting turmoil that each delay can create inside Elecraft.

Delays in the original plan (SWAG) are inevitable.  It is impossible to 
attempt to predict the schedule of another company ( read 'supplier') 
until you have commitments for price, quantity and schedule in place, 
and that is difficult to accomplish unless you have real numbers that 
the supplier can quote on.  That is only one of the possible things that 
can happen.

I have observed that the KX3 plan and schedule has been more open and 
transparent than most previous products.  Whether that is good or bad 
depends on the customer acceptance of supplier delays, field test 
reports that result in tweaks to the product, or problems in training 
new people to enable ramp up to full production status.

So far all is well, but the future remains to be seen.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/7/2012 10:25 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
 As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne
 and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks
 like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions
 are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company
 would act this way. It is very refreshing.

 Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

 On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote:

 This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer
 satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been
 defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who
 have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical
 situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed,
 there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries
 about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart
 and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if
 possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in
 the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific
 financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been
 left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and
 that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word.
 -
 Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
 (408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345
 Englewood Ave
 www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos,
 CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Keith Heimbold]

Making a great rig even better. Totally stoked to play with the radio with the 
new firmware.

 To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement!  It didn't 
 take any extensive testing to reach that conclusion.  The 
 difference is immediately obvious.
 
 As mentioned previously, with low values of slope and high values 
 of threshold, loud signals blank out with the current firmware 
 release, so the most aggressive combinations can't be used now. 
 Threshold 15 and slope 0 seem to work pretty well though.  I am 
 listening to 20 meter cw now with two K3's.  Rig 1 has the new 
 firmware, with threshold 15 and slope 0.  Rig 2 has threshold 8 
 and slope 0 with the current mainstream firmware.
 
 Rig 1 sounds MUCH cleaner, both on the loud W1AW code practice 
 signal, and on the 7O6T pileup.  The pileup is not too deep on 
 any one frequency, so it's not the ultimate test, but signals do 
 sound much cleaner on rig 1.
 
 If more aggressive values of slope and threshold can be 
 accommodated without the blanking effect, the improvement will be 
 even greater.Elecraft is definitely on the right track here. 
 Thanks for working on this issue!
 
 
 Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
 Yuma, Arizona
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Don Wilhelm]

Sorry, I was responding to the wrong post.

While the content is valid for what it is, it is in response to a post 
on the KX3 Yahoo Group, and has nothing to do with the K3 AGC.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/7/2012 10:53 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
 Bill,

 True, true -- but the situation with the KX3 is different than what has
 transpired with previous products.
 Previously, the conversations of the Field Testers have been on a
 private forum.  While that is still true with the KX3, there is a lot
 more information that is in the open.  My guess is that it is due to
 the KX3 Yahoo Group, where a lot of questions are posed.  Wayne and Eric
 have been willing to respond to a number of those questions, and I
 believe that has set the stage for the present level of 'openness'.

   From my standpoint, Thank You other Elecraft customers for being
 patient while the process of final development, Field Test, and
 production ramp-up are taking place.  There are a few that expect
 immediate results to problems, but for the most part, customers have
 been very accepting of the inevitable delays in (optimistic) plans, and
 the resulting turmoil that each delay can create inside Elecraft.

 Delays in the original plan (SWAG) are inevitable.  It is impossible to
 attempt to predict the schedule of another company ( read 'supplier')
 until you have commitments for price, quantity and schedule in place,
 and that is difficult to accomplish unless you have real numbers that
 the supplier can quote on.  That is only one of the possible things that
 can happen.

 I have observed that the KX3 plan and schedule has been more open and
 transparent than most previous products.  Whether that is good or bad
 depends on the customer acceptance of supplier delays, field test
 reports that result in tweaks to the product, or problems in training
 new people to enable ramp up to full production status.

 So far all is well, but the future remains to be seen.

 73,
 Don W3FPR

 On 5/7/2012 10:25 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
 As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne
 and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks
 like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions
 are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company
 would act this way. It is very refreshing.

 Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

 On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote:

 This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer
 satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been
 defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who
 have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical
 situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed,
 there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries
 about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart
 and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if
 possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in
 the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific
 financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been
 left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and
 that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word.
 -
 Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
 (408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345
 Englewood Ave
 www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos,
 CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[W2RU - Bud Hippisley]

On May 7, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

 Beta Beta.

Meaning, I presume, it's a beta Beta than the first Beta.

Well, I guess we beta that to death

Bud, W2RU
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[David Christ]

Software developers call it alpha.  Greek alphabet ya know -- alpha, 
beta, gamma...  I guess gamma must be the production release.

David K0LUM

At 10:42 PM -0400 5/7/12, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
Beta Beta.

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote:

  Hi Dave,
  It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???

  Cheers and 73,
  Fred
  The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
   www.ke7x.com
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Gary Gregory]

*Without the radiation I hope..:-)

gary
*
On 8 May 2012 13:18, David Christ radio...@mchsi.com wrote:

 Software developers call it alpha.  Greek alphabet ya know -- alpha,
 beta, gamma...  I guess gamma must be the production release.

 David K0LUM

 At 10:42 PM -0400 5/7/12, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 Beta Beta.
 
 On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote:
 
   Hi Dave,
   It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???
 
   Cheers and 73,
   Fred
   The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
www.ke7x.com
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-- 
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[Bill Frantz]

Not to worry. Your comments are a fine description of why in 
exchange for openness on the part of the vendor, the customers 
(we) need to exhibit patients when the inevitable things go 
wrong and things take longer than everyone hoped.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 5/7/12 at 19:58, w3...@embarqmail.com (Don Wilhelm) wrote:

Sorry, I was responding to the wrong post.

-
Bill Frantz| When it comes to the world | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | around us, is there any choice | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | but to explore? - Lisa Randall | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

[N5GE]

Alpha...

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Mon, 7 May 2012 17:50:01 -0600, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote:

Hi Dave,
It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma???

Cheers and 73,
Fred
The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation
www.ke7x.com


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)

I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no
Beta...

Clues for the clueless?

Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.

[John K3TN]

The latest version of the K3 firmware (4.48) has eased that problem for me
and HRD. The problem has been on the todo list for HRD for a long time,
hopefully they will fix it before they switch to charging for HRD.

73 John K3TN

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.

[Bill Wiehe]

I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective measure(s). 
My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off for no reason, 
even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we are using HRD and 
the version we have is 5.11 build 3209. 
Any additional feedback would be a appreciated. 
Bill - W0BBI
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.

[Ian Kahn]

Bill,

When it comes out in the next couple of days, download the 5.2x version of
HRD.  It should resolve this issue.  If not, the new owners of HRD plan to
have it corrected in v6.0, which comes out the week of Dayton.

--Ian
 Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA  EM74ua
km4ik@gmail.com
K3 #281, P3 #688
HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team


On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Bill Wiehe bw39...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective
 measure(s). My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off
 for no reason, even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we
 are using HRD and the version we have is 5.11 build 3209.
 Any additional feedback would be a appreciated.
 Bill - W0BBI
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.

[Stephen Prior]

Bill

If you install Lpbridge which is a port sharing utility which sits between
the K3 and up to 5 applications wanting to communicate with the radio, then
the problem will disappear!  It looks daunting to set up, but in reality
it's easy.  Problem solved!

73 Stephen G4SJP



On 30 April 2012 19:00, Bill Wiehe bw39...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective
 measure(s). My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off
 for no reason, even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we
 are using HRD and the version we have is 5.11 build 3209.
 Any additional feedback would be a appreciated.
 Bill - W0BBI
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[Elecraft] K3 AGC off using HRD, Question

[Richard Fjeld]

I know this has been discussed, but I didn't see the following mentioned.  

I installed the latest HRD Beta V5b2893.  The AGC still switches off at times 
on my K3.  I noticed in the Options, Info CAT support, for K-3 radio, the 
AGC-off command for on/off is set to the same value.  Logically, it looks like 
OFF should be OFF=GT0040.

(I wanted to verify this with the K-3 CAT commands in my Elecraft literature, 
but I can't find any.)

I am waiting to be accepted into the HRD Forum to post this. (It's been a few 
hours.) 
It could be quite awhile before it is corrected.  

In the meantime, could the f/w be temporarily modified to allow the user to 
null the AGC-off feature in the CAT commands (or radio) until it is changed in 
HRD?

Dick, n0ce
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[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Audio Test Files

[Dennis]

I ran into a few problems when I tried to send the wav files as email
attachments; turns out they were all too big unless cut up into 5
minute slices.  Instead, I posted them to my website at
https://sites.google.com/site/w1uehamradio/
where they are available for download.  I cut the files into 15 minute
slices, and was able to post 7 slices before I ran into the web site
maximum storage figure.

Comments welcome.

Dennis W1UE

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Results

[Dennis]

I performed the AGC mod as suggested by Wayne N6KR in his K3 Hardware 
AGC Experiment shows promise
posting on Dec 4.  The mod was to add an additional 1 or 2 uf of 
capacitance onto C238 on the Main Receiver
PCB.  I obtained my own SMT caps from Mouser, and for 76cents and 30 
minutes of time the mod was made.

Initial testing with the mod at my house was done between the Main and 
Sub Rx; the Main had the mod, the
Sub didn't.  From perusing the schematics, it appears that they have 
different AGC systems.  The signals on the
Main Rx seemed to have a slightly purer CW note; the effect of the 
pile-up mush also seemed to be less
evident.  Not wanting to jump the gun, I decided to take the modified K3 
down to a station with a big 160M array
and test out the mod there.

I set up two K3s identically with AGC settings, and fed them with the 
same antenna signal.  I did modify my
signal path from the original write-up; the Main Antenna went into Ant 1 
of K3(1), out the Ant Out to a splitter,
the to Ant In of K3(1) and K3(2).  I protected the front end of both K3s 
by putting both into transmit when I
transmitted (using a macro into the N1MM messages for K3(2)), and put 
K3(2) into TEST mode so I didn't accidentally
put any power out of K3.  I also recorded the contest, with each K3 on a 
different channel so that the audio could
be readily compared.

My results mirrored those of my preliminary tests with the the Main and 
Sub Rx; the mod provides a small but
noticeable improvement in pileup situations.  All cw signals seemed to 
have a slightly purer note to them.

After my original posting, several ops suggested I use a SLP setting of 
7 or 8, to get more AGC action.  I decided to
keep my SLP setting at 0, as that has been my normal setting for 
awhile.  I also felt that if I got an improvement
at that setting, it would be even more noticeable at a higher setting.  
I did plan on changing the setting after several
hours of operation, but never got the chance; I operated a little less 
than 3 hours.  The amplifier decided it didn't
like the antenna, and kept faulting off.  After spending an hour trying 
to figure out what the problem was, I gave
up and went home.

If anyone would like an hour worth of audio, send me an email.  The 
unmodified K3 is on the left channel, and
the modified K3 is on the right channel.

Dennis W1UE




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Guy,

The K3 NoiseBlanker does a real good job here. Give it a moderate 
setting and it will work fine.

73,
Arie PA3A


Op 16-12-2011 6:04, Guy Olinger K2AV schreef:
 Yeah, but then don't key clicks punch up your slow AGC?73, Guy.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Ralph Parkerve...@dccnet.com  wrote:

 - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the
 PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses
 and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Lu Romero]

Dave:

My next experiment will be to have an N1MM logging program
macro available to send RF Gain command RG090 if a loud
pileup shows up.  RF Gain will be returned to 200 by
appending
the RG200 command to the thank you message.  This should
be the ultimate in riding the RF gain control.

*EXCELLENT* idea!  Thanks for the tip!

-lu-

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Dennis,

Thanks for this try-out! I'm looking forward to hear the results.

Some suggestions:
- switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS 
function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the 
slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.
- maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active 
in your test
- set AGC to F

73,
Arie PA3A


Op 14-12-2011 22:53, Dennis schreef:
 AGC parameters:
 DCY  Soft
 HLD   .30
 PLS   Nor
 SLP   000
 THR   008
 F   120
 S   020
 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow.
 All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0
 Preamp Off
 Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same.
 Crystal Filter- 400Hz
 Bandwidth setting- 400Hz

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Cady, Fred]

Slope 0 flattens the agc response. Have a look at some curves on The AGC Story 
on ke7x.com


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Arie Kleingeld PA3A
Sent: Thu 12/15/2011 3:08 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
 
Dennis,

Thanks for this try-out! I'm looking forward to hear the results.

Some suggestions:
- switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS 
function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the 
slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.
- maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active 
in your test
- set AGC to F

73,
Arie PA3A


Op 14-12-2011 22:53, Dennis schreef:
 AGC parameters:
 DCY  Soft
 HLD   .30
 PLS   Nor
 SLP   000
 THR   008
 F   120
 S   020
 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow.
 All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0
 Preamp Off
 Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same.
 Crystal Filter- 400Hz
 Bandwidth setting- 400Hz

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Bill W4ZV]

Dennis I'd consider the following minor tweaks to your AGC settings:

HLD 0.20
AGS-S 040

Most importantly, set your RF Gain back so that the S-meters rest above the
residual noise floor (including clicks, phase noise, etc).  Once RF Gain is
set, then adjust AF Gain to suit your ears/headphones.  I would definitely
try to find some pileups before the contest to confirm your AGC settings are
not too slow for reasonable recovery in fast-paced exchanges.  I would also
not be using QSK.  Of course you can try changing any of your settings
during the contest to eliminate/induce mush.

73  GL!

Bill  W4ZV 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Fred,
Maybe I did not express it right:
I want some more activity from the AGC means for me:  audio response 
more flat with different signal levels. SLP 15 is most flat audio level 
in this case.

73,
Arie PA3A


Op 15-12-2011 15:17, Cady, Fred schreef:

 Slope 0 flattens the agc response. Have a look at some curves on The 
 AGC Story on ke7x.com


 -Original Message-



 Some suggestions:
 - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS
 function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the
 slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.
 - maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active
 in your test
 - set AGC to F

 73,
 Arie PA3A


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Dave Hachadorian]

Here are what I consider to be the best contest CW settings for
the K3:

config AF GAIN = HIGH (to increase overall post-AGC gain)
config AGC DCY = SOFT
config AGC HLD = 0.20
config AGC PLS = NOR
config AGC SLP = 000 (steepest)
config AGC THR = 008 (highest)
config AGC - F = 200 (fastest)
config AGC - S = 020
Front panel select AGC FAST
Front panel AF GAIN as loud as your ears can stand, 3 o'clock for
   me.
Attenuator definitely ON, and preamp OFF for 160 (unless using
   separate RX antenna).
Front Panel RF Gain set to show 1 or 2 S-units of band noise
   meter wiggle (about 1 o'clock for me)

I know that selecting AGC SLOW on the front panel is supposed to
reduce IMD, but for me, the mushiness is due to the
aggressiveness of the K3's AGC curve, not IMD.  Slow AGC
also introduces desensing due to static crashes and other loud
transients, so is undesirable for that reason.

My next experiment will be to have an N1MM logging program
macro available to send RF Gain command RG090 if a loud
pileup shows up.  RF Gain will be returned to 200 by appending
the RG200 command to the thank you message.  This should
be the ultimate in riding the RF gain control.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ





-Original Message- 
From: Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

This weekend I will be participating in the Stew Perry 160M
contest, as
will many of you.
For the contest, I've arranged to do some testing of the IMD Mod
as put
forth by N6KR in
a recent email.  I will have two K3s available, one with the IMD
mod
(2uf in parallel with the
.1uf already on the pcb) and one without the mod.  The audio from
each
will be run to
a sound card and one radio will be on the left channel, and the
other
radio on the right channel,
so it will be easy to compare the two audio streams.

K3s will be setup as follows:
Same MCU and DSP firmware
AGC parameters:
DCY  Soft
HLD   .30
PLS   Nor
SLP   000
THR   008
F   120
S   020
AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow.
All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0
Preamp Off
Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the
same.
Crystal Filter- 400Hz
Bandwidth setting- 400Hz
Headphone audio from an SO2R Box will be routed to the sound card
for
recording.
 The program I use to record the audio will give me 1-hour
wav files.
RF gain adjusted to same number on both radios via N1MM Cat
command
Main Antenna will go through K3(1) Ant 1 jack
K3(1) Ant Out will go to K3(2) Ant 1 Jack
K3(2) will have power reduced to zero and in TEST mode
K3(2) will also be put into transmit mode, but not keyed, when
K3(1) is
transmitting
 by using N1MM Cat commands {CAT2ASC TX;} CQ SP W1UE W1UE
{CAT2ASC RX;}

By putting K3(2) into Tx mode when keying K3(1), I'm figuring the
front
ends on both radios
will not be damaged.  The antenna in use will be a 160M 4-square,
so I'm
confident there
will be plenty of signal for both rigs.  If there is a better way
to do
this, I'm listening.

So that I don't have to listen to 14 hours of audio to find some
mush,
I will also be
keeping a log of the times when I do hear it.  I'm particularly
interested to see if I can
actually hear the difference in audio from this reduction in IMD.

Comments as to my setup, and suggestions on other things that I
may want
to standardize,
are appreciated.

Dennis W1UE







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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS

[Ralph Parker]

- switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the
PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses
and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.

AHA!  Tnx, Arie.
I have noticed this many times, and was unable to determine what caused it.

Ralph, VE7XF

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Yeah, but then don't key clicks punch up your slow AGC?73, Guy.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote:

 - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the
 PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses
 and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal.

 AHA!  Tnx, Arie.
 I have noticed this many times, and was unable to determine what caused it.

 Ralph, VE7XF

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[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend

[Dennis]

This weekend I will be participating in the Stew Perry 160M contest, as 
will many of you.
For the contest, I've arranged to do some testing of the IMD Mod as put 
forth by N6KR in
a recent email.  I will have two K3s available, one with the IMD mod 
(2uf in parallel with the
.1uf already on the pcb) and one without the mod.  The audio from each 
will be run to
a sound card and one radio will be on the left channel, and the other 
radio on the right channel,
so it will be easy to compare the two audio streams.

K3s will be setup as follows:
Same MCU and DSP firmware
AGC parameters:
DCY  Soft
HLD   .30
PLS   Nor
SLP   000
THR   008
F   120
S   020
AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow.
All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0
Preamp Off
Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same.
Crystal Filter- 400Hz
Bandwidth setting- 400Hz
Headphone audio from an SO2R Box will be routed to the sound card for 
recording.
 The program I use to record the audio will give me 1-hour wav files.
RF gain adjusted to same number on both radios via N1MM Cat command
Main Antenna will go through K3(1) Ant 1 jack
K3(1) Ant Out will go to K3(2) Ant 1 Jack
K3(2) will have power reduced to zero and in TEST mode
K3(2) will also be put into transmit mode, but not keyed, when K3(1) is 
transmitting
 by using N1MM Cat commands {CAT2ASC TX;} CQ SP W1UE W1UE {CAT2ASC RX;}

By putting K3(2) into Tx mode when keying K3(1), I'm figuring the front 
ends on both radios
will not be damaged.  The antenna in use will be a 160M 4-square, so I'm 
confident there
will be plenty of signal for both rigs.  If there is a better way to do 
this, I'm listening.

So that I don't have to listen to 14 hours of audio to find some mush, 
I will also be
keeping a log of the times when I do hear it.  I'm particularly 
interested to see if I can
actually hear the difference in audio from this reduction in IMD.

Comments as to my setup, and suggestions on other things that I may want 
to standardize,
are appreciated.

Dennis W1UE







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