Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Yea will it caught me one time as well. I guess I'm one that runs AGC either F or S depending on mode. With the good roofing filters in the radio, I rarely have AGC pumping issues from strong stations that are of any concern. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 9/22/2019 4:37 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001! Thanks! Conrad PA5Y -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio? Check the AF LIM settings. {page 57 in the manual} Typical value is NOR 030. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort Any idea what is going on? 73 Conrad PA5Y __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to g0...@g0ruz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?; DO A BACKUP TO PRESERVE SETTINGS
This is why keeping a backup can be the best tool of the bunch. You run into an issue, reload the backup. Then erroneous settings made in haste or error can be fixed. Now that you have fixed and radio is running as you want, do a backup. Sometimes glitches get into the mix for no good reason, do a backup. Install it first to fix the settings. Will save yourself lots of grief in the future. 72 & 73, Bill K9YEQ FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc. -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Conrad PA5Y Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 4:38 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio? Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001! Thanks! Conrad PA5Y -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio? Check the AF LIM settings. {page 57 in the manual} Typical value is NOR 030. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact > last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to > operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then > AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving > slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios > when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume > that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. > For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up > doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort > > Any idea what is going on? > > 73 > > Conrad PA5Y > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to > rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to g0...@g0ruz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k9...@live.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Yes that was it Bob and Wes, it was set to 001! Thanks! Conrad PA5Y -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX Sent: 22 September 2019 22:44 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio? Check the AF LIM settings. {page 57 in the manual} Typical value is NOR 030. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: > Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact > last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to > operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then > AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving > slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios > when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume > that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. > For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up > doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort > > Any idea what is going on? > > 73 > > Conrad PA5Y > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to > rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to g0...@g0ruz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Check the AF LIM settings. {page 57 in the manual} Typical value is NOR 030. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 9/22/2019 2:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort Any idea what is going on? 73 Conrad PA5Y __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Hi Conrad. Here is the some situation. I think in the K3 S-meter not in the AGC loop, have diff channel and detector same as in the FT2000. -- Original Message -- From: "Conrad PA5Y" To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" Sent: 22.09.2019 22:42:01 Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio? Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort Any idea what is going on? 73 Conrad PA5Y __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 4z...@bezeqint.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Check the setting of CONFIG:AF LIM. Wes N7WS On 9/22/2019 12:42 PM, Conrad PA5Y wrote: Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort Any idea what is going on? 73 Conrad PA5Y __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 AGC off mutes audio?
Hello I have a K3S with the latest firmware. I use it on EME in fact last night was the first time. It works well but for EME I prefer to operate with the AGC off. If I do a long press on the AGC button then AGC switches off but so does the audio. I still see the S meter moving slightly which is strange when the AGC is off. On all my other radios when I switch AGC off then the S meter does not function. I assume that there is a another setting that causes this . or it is a bug. For now I have set the AGC threshold quite high which I may end up doing on a permanent basis, then locals don't distort Any idea what is going on? 73 Conrad PA5Y __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
So if I slowly turn down the gain on one of your "pro audio" amplifiers and the gain slope changes but remains a straight line that's distortion? On 3/7/2017 4:11 PM, Jim Brown wrote: ... And I'll repeat my previous observation that a signal path with gain that varies with time or with the signal amplitude is NOT a linear device, and non-linearity => distortion. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
> AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather slowly and DOES NOT change the "dynamic range." Exactly. AGC changes the receiver's gain between two points in time, not between two signals arriving at the same time. I believe changing the AGC settings does improve the "mush" situation in CW, but the reasoning is more subtle than a simple picture based on dynamic range alone. Consider a situation where there are two CW signals, one at S8 sending mostly dits, and another weaker one at S7 sending mostly dahs. If the AGC threshold is well above the strength of either signal (or AGC is off), you will be able to tell when a dit from the stronger signal ends even if a simultaneous weaker dah is continuing, because of the change in signal level when the dit stops. In other words, you will hear the dits from the stronger signal riding in above the lower-volume-level dahs. Now suppose the AGC threshold is below both signals, say at S6, and the slope of the gain curve is flat (i.e. the SLP is set to its maximum value). For now, assume a perfectly instantaneous AGC decay time (super-fast AGC). Then regardless of whether one signal or both is/are currently "on", the AGC will immediately adjust the gain to clamp the signal strength to the S6 level. In other words, even after the stronger dit finishes, the weaker but longer-lasting dah will still be at the same perceived volume, and you won't be able to tell when the dit ended. Result: you just hear the combination of two signals at a constant volume, i.e. "mush". If there are only the two signals, when both are "off" the gain will increase, raising the perceived noise level, but that's not the "mush" problem, it's the "noisy receiver" problem. If there are a lot of signals at or above the threshold, then the "mush" would be more or less continuous. In the real world, the AGC time constant will affect this. If the decay time is long enough (as in slow AGC settings as used for SSB), you might hear the audio volume drop immediately after the end of a strong dit and then rise during a continuing weaker dah, whereas if the decay time is very short, you might hear the brief drop in volume only as a blip in an otherwise constant-level sound. But at first blush I would think this would be a secondary effect compared to the main effect of adjusting the AGC threshold to be above or below the level of the signals. As far as I can see, none of the above applies to RTTY, which is nominally a constant-amplitude signal. Whether the signal is above or below the AGC threshold, the ratio of the instantaneous mark and space signals will be the same (unless one of them is on the skirts of the filter bandpass). Even if there are two signals on the same frequency, the differences in relative strengths of mark and space from the two signals would not be affected by AGC, although the overall amplitude might be. I don't know enough about how RTTY decoders work to guess at whether a constant-level signal (aggressive AGC) vs. a time-varying signal level (no or weaker AGC) would have an effect on decoding, but the same reasoning that applies to CW "mush" does not appear to me to be relevant. 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Wes and Ed, It's important to realize that in the K3 and later Elecraft rigs, all of this is happening in the digital domain. One thing we learned about DSP in pro audio is that dynamics processing burns a LOT processor cycles. DSP SIMULATES the behavior of analog circuitry, but depending on the code and the processor, the quality of the emulation can be varying degrees of ideal. ALSO -- those of us who have worked in broadcast audio know that dynamics processing can be a VERY complex business, especially when you're trying to do a lot of it, and even with a budget far larger than in a ham rig. Even in analog, it's tricky to do a LOT of gain change and still sound good. A handful of designers were good at it, and made a lot of money for themselves, or their employer, or both. And I'll repeat my previous observation that a signal path with gain that varies with time or with the signal amplitude is NOT a linear device, and non-linearity => distortion. 73, Jim K9YC On Tue,3/7/2017 1:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather slowly and DOES NOT change the "dynamic range." If you're listening to a signal and it's too loud for your ears and you turn the audio gain down 10 dB, does that change the amplitude ratio of any signal you're listening to? No, it lowers everything by 10 dB. AGC is no different, it just operates at another location in the radio. IMHO, this thinking is the result of looking at too many ACG slope, threshold, and phase of the moon charts and assuming that bigger signals have their gain reduced more that smaller ones at the same instant in time. Wes N7WS On 3/7/2017 2:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote: Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver. The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in time to make bit decisions. AGC reduces those differences and thus increases the bit error rate. Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the decoder. But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error rate of the decoder. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
AGC adjusts the receiver gain, compared to the audio bits, rather slowly and DOES NOT change the "dynamic range." If you're listening to a signal and it's too loud for your ears and you turn the audio gain down 10 dB, does that change the amplitude ratio of any signal you're listening to? No, it lowers everything by 10 dB. AGC is no different, it just operates at another location in the radio. IMHO, this thinking is the result of looking at too many ACG slope, threshold, and phase of the moon charts and assuming that bigger signals have their gain reduced more that smaller ones at the same instant in time. Wes N7WS On 3/7/2017 2:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote: Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver. The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in time to make bit decisions. AGC reduces those differences and thus increases the bit error rate. Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the decoder. But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error rate of the decoder. Ed W0YK _ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
If the AGC is working right, it is equivalent to manually riding the RF gain control. It shouldn't affect the decoding. If the AGC time constant is too fast then, yes, it can cause distortion and degrade the decoding. But that should never happen in a properly-designed AGC system. AGC makes the decoder's job easier, not harder, because it reduces the dynamic range the decoder has to deal with. Alan N1AL On 03/07/2017 01:19 PM, Ed Muns wrote: Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver. The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in time to make bit decisions. AGC reduces those differences and thus increases the bit error rate. Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the decoder. But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error rate of the decoder. Ed W0YK _ -Original Message- From: Bill Frantz [mailto:fra...@pwpconsult.com] Sent: 07 March, 2017 13:05 To: e...@w0yk.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of automation affects decoder performance. It should help performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to work with. Please explain. Thanks - Bill AE6JV On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote: Just the opposite. Most digital signal decoders work best with the least AGC action possible, even AGC Off. AGC constrains decoder performance. Ed W0YK _ -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Frantz ... Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have to deal with a big range, while using something with more dynamic range for voice/CW. --- Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Decoders operate on the audio stream presented to them from the receiver. The decoding algorithms use the difference in audio level at each instant in time to make bit decisions. AGC reduces those differences and thus increases the bit error rate. Of course, it is important to adjust the absolute audio levels so that the dynamic range of the signal(s) is placed within the dynamic range of the decoder. But, compressing the dynamic range, i.e., AGC, increases the error rate of the decoder. Ed W0YK _ -Original Message- From: Bill Frantz [mailto:fra...@pwpconsult.com] Sent: 07 March, 2017 13:05 To: e...@w0yk.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of automation affects decoder performance. It should help performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to work with. Please explain. Thanks - Bill AE6JV On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote: >Just the opposite. Most digital signal decoders work best with the least >AGC action possible, even AGC Off. AGC constrains decoder performance. > >Ed W0YK >_ > >-Original Message- >From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill >Frantz >... >Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not >have to deal with a big range, while using something with more >dynamic range for voice/CW. --- Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
What I get using a relatively flat AGC is automation of my riding the RF gain control. I don't see how this kind of automation affects decoder performance. It should help performance as the decoder has a nearly constant level signal to work with. Please explain. Thanks - Bill AE6JV On 3/7/17 at 11:37 AM, e...@w0yk.com (Ed Muns) wrote: Just the opposite. Most digital signal decoders work best with the least AGC action possible, even AGC Off. AGC constrains decoder performance. Ed W0YK _ -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Frantz ... Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have to deal with a big range, while using something with more dynamic range for voice/CW. --- Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Just the opposite. Most digital signal decoders work best with the least AGC action possible, even AGC Off. AGC constrains decoder performance. Ed W0YK _ -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Frantz Sent: 05 March, 2017 23:17 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper Thanks Al. A very useful paper. Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have to deal with a big range, while using something with more dynamic range for voice/CW. 73 Bill AE6JV On 3/6/17 at 9:50 PM, alor...@sbcglobal.net (Al Lorona) wrote: >I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet >another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements >and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may >benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by >demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you >think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to >you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: > > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%2 0K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl= >0 > > >I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. --- Bill Frantz| Security is like Government | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | services. The market doesn't | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to e...@w0yk.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Brian, The effect of reducing the RF Gain is *about* the same as increasing the AGC threshold. Not quite, but that is a simplistic way of looking at it. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2017 6:13 PM, Brian Hunt wrote: I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I rarely operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise peaks are barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm moving the curve to the right? I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the AGC kicks in for a given THR number? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper
Jim, I am competitive mainly when I go on expeditions and operate from semi rare countries like 8Q7 or 6V7 or CT3. Finding clear run frequency from there is not a problem. On the other hand carrying extra box and using big screen there is a problem. Therefore P3 for me is not justifiable expense so far. When at home I mainly operate from friend's station which is equipped with pair of K3s and pair of P3 but again P3s have pretty limited use due to some other reasons. 73, Igor UA9CDC 07.03.2017 1:04, Jim Brown пишет: On Mon,3/6/2017 11:42 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote: This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would make me finally purchase P3. Igor, While it's a nice idea, it may or may not be possible to implement. BUT -- we're both pretty active contesters, and I wouldn't dream of working a contest without one. The SVGA card makes it even more useful -- the waterfall can be set to provide 2 minutes on screen, which really helps when trying to find a run frequency. You can look at the patterns to see which frequencies have someone running, and even when skip doesn't let you see the run station, you often see his callers. A waterfall tweaked for lots of averaging is great for finding weak signals on a band that is barely open. And a P3 is great for chasing down sources of RX noise. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ua9...@gmail.com . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Is there a way to simulate different agc settings by generating sine wave CW signals and varying the relevant parameters? I'd like to write some code to allow for straightforward observation of the phenomena we are discussing and various assumptions about the input signals to be tested. It should be possible to create "mush" and also the desired response, I would think. It would be useful to those wishing to understand the theory in a more concrete way. Matt NQ6N On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:14 PM Brian Huntwrote: > I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I > rarely operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise > peaks are barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm > moving the curve to the right? I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the > AGC kicks in for a given THR number? > > Nice presentation Al. Thanks. > > 73, > Brian, K0DTJ > > > On Mar 5, 2017, at 21:50, Al Lorona wrote: > > > > I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another > K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the > results down in the hope that others may benefit. > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to m...@nq6n.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
I noticed that your AGC curves were made with the RF gain full max. I rarely operate that way. I usually turn the RF gain down to where the noise peaks are barely kicking the S-meter. By doing so, is it fair to say I'm moving the curve to the right? I.e, a higher signal amplitude before the AGC kicks in for a given THR number? Nice presentation Al. Thanks. 73, Brian, K0DTJ > On Mar 5, 2017, at 21:50, Al Loronawrote: > > I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC > (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results > down in the hope that others may benefit. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
On 3/6/2017 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Actually it responds to the integral of all the signals in the passband, but if there is a single stronger one it will predominate. In truth, depending on the AGC *attack time constant* the AGC system responds to the *instantaneous peak voltage* of all signals in the passband. Even for two signals where one signal is *only* 10 dB stronger than the other, the *instantaneous peak voltage* can be as much as 20 dB greater than the stronger signal alone. With multiple signals, e.g. a large pile-up, and [relatively] slow attack times, the instantaneous peak voltage can drive the ADC into clipping before the AGC can react while with very fast attack and decay times AGC can "pump" the receiver gain at a syllabic rate and further "muddy" the recovered audio. Steady state (single signal, single tone) measurements can show the general AGC behavior but it is still an "art" to find the best combination of attack time, decay time, threshold, slope (gain reduction) above the threshold, "hold" times and *overall gain* to keep peak signal voltages below the ADC clipping point and simultaneously keeping the AGC response from "pumping" receiver gain in such a way as to generate IMD (mush). The key here is the *DYNAMIC* response of the AGC system. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/6/2017 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Wes is correct. Let me say it in a slightly different way. The AGC simply reduces the gain of the receiver - and it will respond mainly to the strongest signal in the passband. Actually it responds to the integral of all the signals in the passband, but if there is a single stronger one it will predominate. When the receiver gain is reduced, ALL the signals will be proportionally reduced in amplitude - including the weaker ones. This is often referred to as "AGC Pumping". 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2017 1:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph: "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range. This is the desired response." I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the unwary. AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain through the receiver. The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range. Al continues: "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder. This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2 dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a less-than-two S-unit difference." Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 5 S-units to two S-units. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
For curiosity we looked at the lower end of the curve with SpectrumLab having a 0.27 Hz effective noise bandwidth at audio. The K3 (not S here) shows AF linearity to more than 40 dB below S1! So you guys with a low noise floor and ultra narrow digital modes could potentially do wonders. 73 de Brian/K3KO On 3/6/2017 15:11 PM, Cady, Fred wrote: Very nice Al Thanks. 73, Fred KE7X From: Elecraft <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on behalf of Al Lorona <alor...@sbcglobal.net> Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 10:50 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0 I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. 73, Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to fc...@montana.edu __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to als...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper
I think about it as follows: THR: The signal level at which AGC action begins. Lower number = lower signal level where AGC begins. SLP: Wayne is an EE and I'll bet he views SLP as the degree of gain compression in the AGC system. Thus, higher SLP values mean a higher amount of "compression" [and more flat] curve after threshold. I'm a math dude, not an EE, and I view "slope" as the first derivative of the AGC gain function ... which is unfortunately exactly backwards to the way it really works. I get around this by assuming "SLP" is a really weird acronym for COMPRESSION and not for SLOPE. Maybe that will help you. 73, Fred K6DGW Sparks NV Washoe County DM09dn On 3/5/2017 11:29 PM, Erik Basilier wrote: I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or decrease the number to achieve my intended result? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper
On Mon,3/6/2017 11:42 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote: This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would make me finally purchase P3. Igor, While it's a nice idea, it may or may not be possible to implement. BUT -- we're both pretty active contesters, and I wouldn't dream of working a contest without one. The SVGA card makes it even more useful -- the waterfall can be set to provide 2 minutes on screen, which really helps when trying to find a run frequency. You can look at the patterns to see which frequencies have someone running, and even when skip doesn't let you see the run station, you often see his callers. A waterfall tweaked for lots of averaging is great for finding weak signals on a band that is barely open. And a P3 is great for chasing down sources of RX noise. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
On Mon,3/6/2017 11:29 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: This is often referred to as "AGC Pumping". Yes, BUT -- there is distortion associated with AGC action, and that distortion is what is perceived as "mush." [Remember that the fundamental definition of distortion is "anything in the output that's not the input multiplied by a constant. Distortion can include time-variable gain, non-constant amplitude and phase response as a function of time or frequency, and amplitude non-linearity, variable time response. ALL of these distortions have the potential for confusing the ear-brain when trying to get intelligence from a signal, or providing aural satisfaction when listening to music. The K2 provides a great example. It sounds great and audio is easy to copy when listening to a SSB signal through the TX filter, but sounds awful and makes copy very difficult when the crystal filters are stagger tuned to provide narrower bandwidth. That's because the frequency response is pretty flat for the TX filter, but looks like a side view of the Rocky Mountains with the stagger tuned filters, and because every change in amplitude response is accompanied by non-constant phase response.] More important -- this "mush" problem is NOT a theoretical concept -- the problem has been experienced by hundreds of great CW operators in contests and DX pileups. Those operators have, by careful experimenting based on their understanding of how AGC works, and by listening to the results of tweaking AGC parameters, developed settings that SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Caps added for emphasis. In general, their solutions are quite similar, differing only in degree. This is NOT a problem for casual contesters or DXers, who either don't call CQ in contests or don't have a big enough station or a callsign that's rare enough in a given contest to generate a pileup. Most of the time I'm operating I fall into the first category, but occasionally the second. I've tried the recommendations of several top CW contesters, and I do agree that the result is making multiple callers easier for my brain to separate. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper
Eric, Thank you. This is really a great idea wich is if ever implemented would make me finally purchase P3. I am sure Elecraft is listening. 73, Igor UA9CDC 06.03.2017 12:29, Erik Basilier пишет: Al, your paper looks very helpful for the situation when the concepts need to be studied. After one has a reasonable understanding of the concepts, the stituation that comes up now and then is wanting to change some of the AGC parameters in the K3. I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or decrease the number to achieve my intended result? That is not about understanding the concepts, but simply about an arbitrary definition that can be equally "right" whether it is one way or the other. There are many other examples of K3 parameters that have names that don't fully describe what they do. Of course, the parameter names must be (too) short because of the display limitations. However, when one has a P3, that opens up a whole different world in terms of graphic displays. It seems to me that something like an AGC curve could be displayed graphically (as in your paper) right when the parameter is being changed. That way one would not have to worry about a detailed definition; just turn the knob and see the effect. The graph would be made extra helpful by the fact that the actual noise level is visible at the same time. No doubt other K3 parameters could become more user-friendly if treated in a similar way. 73, Erik K7TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ua9...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Wes is correct. Let me say it in a slightly different way. The AGC simply reduces the gain of the receiver - and it will respond mainly to the strongest signal in the passband. Actually it responds to the integral of all the signals in the passband, but if there is a single stronger one it will predominate. When the receiver gain is reduced, ALL the signals will be proportionally reduced in amplitude - including the weaker ones. This is often referred to as "AGC Pumping". 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2017 1:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph: "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range. This is the desired response." I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the unwary. AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain through the receiver. The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range. Al continues: "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder. This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2 dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a less-than-two S-unit difference." Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 5 S-units to two S-units. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Yup, I knew that would cause confusion. That's NOT what I meant. I meant that if you listen to ONE signal at a time, their apparent amplitudes do not reflect reality, because of the AGC. If BOTH signals are present in the passband at the same time, then my comments DO NOT apply. I was ONLY talking about hearing ONE signal AT A TIME. NONE of my discussion EVER presupposed more than ONE signal being received at a time. THANK YOU. :^) I am beginning to believe that it's impossible to shed any more light on this topic. It continues to be one of the most misunderstood areas of all, and I'm not sure if any effort can clear up the confusion without adding more confusion of its own. At least, I know I've failed! The next time someone asks a question about AGC, I'm going to chomp down on a towel, duct tape my arms to the chair, and start my breathing exercises: deep breath hold. exhale. again. Al W6LX From: Wes Stewart <wes_n...@triconet.org> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph: "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range. This is the desired response." I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the unwary. AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain through the receiver. The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range. Al continues: "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder. This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2 dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a less-than-two S-unit difference." Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 5 S-units to two S-units. Hence, I suspect that "mush" the proponents believe that AGC somehow magically reduces the amplitude of the stronger signal that activates the AGC but allows the weaker ones to have full gain, so that they "catch up" and become indistinguishable from the stronger one. That's a limiting receiver, nice for FM, not so nice for CW/SSB. All IMHO, of course, Wes N7WS On 3/5/2017 10:50 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC > (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results > down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand > AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you > think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the > document in my Dropbox at the following link: > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0 > > > I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are > interested. > > 73, > > Al W6LX > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered towes_n...@triconet.org > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to alor...@sbcglobal.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
In Al's very nicely done paper he has this paragraph: "The purpose of Automatic Gain Control (AGC) is to reduce the range of the signals seen by the sensitive stages in the receiver. The AGC stage is designed to vary its gain depending on the input signal; stronger signals get less gain, and this has the effect of compressing the amplitude range. This is the desired response." I believe this paragraph and the accompanying graphic can be misleading to the unwary. AGC does not compress the range of signals, it simply lowers the gain through the receiver. The range (difference between) signals might well be 130 dB at the input but it better be 130 dB everywhere else in the receiver too. If lower level signals are driven into the internal noise level because of gain reduction, so be it; that should be the only reduction in range. Al continues: "But signals above this threshold will be acted on by the AGC. Even though in real life an S9 signal is 5 S-units stronger than an S4 signal, because of the AGC it will sound only 11.1 dB louder – less than 2 S-units louder. This is because, reading from the above graph, an S4 (-103 dBm) signal produces -15.3 dBV of audio output and an S9 (-73 dBm) signal produces -4.2 dBV, a difference of 11.1 dB. A five S-unit difference has been reduced to a less-than-two S-unit difference." Some are going to read this and mistakenly believe that while receiving both an S9 signal and an S4 signal, AGC is going to reduce the ratio between them from 5 S-units to two S-units. Hence, I suspect that "mush" the proponents believe that AGC somehow magically reduces the amplitude of the stronger signal that activates the AGC but allows the weaker ones to have full gain, so that they "catch up" and become indistinguishable from the stronger one. That's a limiting receiver, nice for FM, not so nice for CW/SSB. All IMHO, of course, Wes N7WS On 3/5/2017 10:50 PM, Al Lorona wrote: I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0 I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. 73, Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home:http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list:http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered towes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Very nice report - thanks! - Sverre, LA3ZA K2 #2198, K3 #3391, LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com, LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications: http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-White-Paper-tp7627649p7627677.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Very nice Al Thanks. 73, Fred KE7X From: Elecraft <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on behalf of Al Lorona <alor...@sbcglobal.net> Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 10:50 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0 I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. 73, Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to fc...@montana.edu __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC with Dual Receivers
Chuck, If you look at the chart of CONFIG menu listings, all menu items that have [SUB] indicated are separate settings for the main and the subRX. There is no such indicator for the AGC parameters, indicating that those menu entries apply to both the main and the subRX. The AGC parameters *are* Tech mode entries, so you have to set TECH MD to on before you can see them. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/6/2017 8:24 AM, Chuck Guenther wrote: I've been using my trusty K3 for years with a single receiver, and frequently experiment with AGC THR and SLP settings for best DX reception. As I seldom am in a position to "Run" stations, I have not been bothered by what has been referred to as "pileup mush," except perhaps when I switch briefly to VFO B to comb through a DX pileup. My main concern with AGC is to protect my ears, so I tend to use one of the nearly flat slope settings. BTW, I really like the AGC action in my KX2. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 AGC with Dual Receivers
I've been using my trusty K3 for years with a single receiver, and frequently experiment with AGC THR and SLP settings for best DX reception. As I seldom am in a position to "Run" stations, I have not been bothered by what has been referred to as "pileup mush," except perhaps when I switch briefly to VFO B to comb through a DX pileup. My main concern with AGC is to protect my ears, so I tend to use one of the nearly flat slope settings. BTW, I really like the AGC action in my KX2. I recently sent my K3 to Elecraft for installation of many procrastinated hardware upgrades, including a second receiver. From my reading of the manuals, I gather that I can adjust each receiver independently, and can use different AGC settings on each. Am I correct? If so, it seems like (for DX'ing purposes anyway) I might want vastly different AGC settings for my left and right ears. I am thinking I might want one set of AGC parameters for optimum reception of a weak DX station, and another set of parameters setup to listen to the howling hordes in the pileup. Surely others have done this (if it is indeed possible). How does this work out in practice? Thanks & 73, Chuck Guenther NI0C __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] [K3} AGC White Paper
Al, your paper looks very helpful for the situation when the concepts need to be studied. After one has a reasonable understanding of the concepts, the stituation that comes up now and then is wanting to change some of the AGC parameters in the K3. I don't know about others, but I tend to forget the direction of parameters such as AGC "slope". Do I want to increase or decrease the number to achieve my intended result? That is not about understanding the concepts, but simply about an arbitrary definition that can be equally "right" whether it is one way or the other. There are many other examples of K3 parameters that have names that don't fully describe what they do. Of course, the parameter names must be (too) short because of the display limitations. However, when one has a P3, that opens up a whole different world in terms of graphic displays. It seems to me that something like an AGC curve could be displayed graphically (as in your paper) right when the parameter is being changed. That way one would not have to worry about a detailed definition; just turn the knob and see the effect. The graph would be made extra helpful by the fact that the actual noise level is visible at the same time. No doubt other K3 parameters could become more user-friendly if treated in a similar way. 73, Erik K7TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
Thanks Al. A very useful paper. Now to use SLP=15 for digital, where I want the AtoD to not have to deal with a big range, while using something with more dynamic range for voice/CW. 73 Bill AE6JV On 3/6/17 at 9:50 PM, alor...@sbcglobal.net (Al Lorona) wrote: I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl= 0 I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. --- Bill Frantz| Security is like Government | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | services. The market doesn't | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] [K3] AGC White Paper
I spent a little bit of time this weekend and put together yet another K3 AGC (YAKA) "white paper" to put some measurements and discussion of the results down in the hope that others may benefit. Maybe it'll help folks understand AGC better by demystifying some of the K3 idiosyncrasies. I hope it makes you think about a few things in a way that maybe never occurred to you. I put the document in my Dropbox at the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/drfujqupr4pcet3/Getting%20the%20Most%20Out%20of%20K3%20AGC%20System.pdf?dl=0 I'll leave the file there for several days in case any of y'all are interested. 73, Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
Hi All, It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using. It you want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them. My numbers are: AF LIM 20 (probably a little high) THR 12 (about S5) SLP 0 (best slope) DCY Soft HLD 0.3 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 20 Thanks and 73, Fred KE7X Fred Cady fcady at ieee dot org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
The K3 can become many different rigs for different people. The AGC characteristics are the most configurable of all, so the survey won't be meaningful without one more key question: * For what kind of operating? 73 from Ian GM3SEK -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft- boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Cady, Fred Sent: 04 December 2013 21:28 To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net' Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey Hi All, It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using. It you want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them. My numbers are: AF LIM 20 (probably a little high) THR 12 (about S5) SLP 0 (best slope) DCY Soft HLD 0.3 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 20 Thanks and 73, Fred KE7X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
Plus I suspect an individuals hearing also effects what settings are used? Still, Fred has no doubtgot a use for theinfo but for me, I am in the US till February so no K3 here to make some notes. Brr...and I am freezing. ? Gary On 05/12/2013 7:28 AM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Hi All, It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using. It you want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them. My numbers are: AF LIM 20 (probably a little high) THR 12 (about S5) SLP 0 (best slope) DCY Soft HLD 0.3 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 20 Thanks and 73, Fred KE7X Fred Cady fcady at ieee dot org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
Good thinking Ian. I have a one track mind - CW contesting. Mode and kind of operating is important too. 73, Fred Fred Cady fcady at ieee dot org -Original Message- From: Ian White [mailto:gm3...@ifwtech.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 3:19 PM To: Cady, Fred; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey The K3 can become many different rigs for different people. The AGC characteristics are the most configurable of all, so the survey won't be meaningful without one more key question: * For what kind of operating? 73 from Ian GM3SEK -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft- boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Cady, Fred Sent: 04 December 2013 21:28 To: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net' Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey Hi All, It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using. It you want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them. My numbers are: AF LIM 20 (probably a little high) THR 12 (about S5) SLP 0 (best slope) DCY Soft HLD 0.3 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 20 Thanks and 73, Fred KE7X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
My numbers are: AF LIM 030 THR 010 SLP 008 DCY Nor HLD 0.00 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 020 The only variables I have experimented with are THR and SLP. I mostly operate phone with some CW and I really don't have any objections to the way my K3 works. 73, de Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:28:19 +1000, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Whatever the defaults are, that is what I am using. I have had no need nor want to change them. (And ditto for most other settings in my K3, I found that it works for me 'right out of the box') 73 de -- Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA East Innisfail QLD, Australia Hi All, It's been a while since the K3 AGC operation was changed (about 4.51) so it might be fun to see what everybody has settled down on using. It you want to reply here or to me off line, I'll compile the result and post them. My numbers are: AF LIM 20 (probably a little high) THR 12 (about S5) SLP 0 (best slope) DCY Soft HLD 0.3 PLS NOR AGC-F 120 AGC-S 20 Thanks and 73, Fred KE7X Fred Cady fcady at ieee dot org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC values survey
When I got my K3 I was a relatively new ham. I was delighted that the default settings were good usable values. Having a good starting point was valuable in learning how to use radios and the K3 in particular. Kudos to Elecraft. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 12/5/13 at 5:45 PM, jeffvk...@gmail.com (Jeff Cochrane) wrote: Whatever the defaults are, that is what I am using. I have had no need nor want to change them. (And ditto for most other settings in my K3, I found that it works for me 'right out of the box') - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW
Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for receiving weak cw signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my settings for listening to at the noise 2 meter and 6 meter beacons. Thanks!ChadN0YK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW
Thanks for the explanation and plot. I will try your settings for the slope/threshold. I do run a mast-mount SP-2000 for 2 meters with the internal K144XV, works well together. I have not added a preamp on 6 meters yet. Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:28:55 + From: als...@nc.rr.com To: chadwasin...@outlook.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW Chad, AGC doesn't kick in till way above weak signal on any reasonable values of THR and slope. Of course a mast mounted preamp on 2M would help a lot. One can get by with a back of the rig preamp for 6M. The stock K3 is deaf on 6M. For weak CW signal DXing, I had to add 15 db of low NF preamp gain. Managed to finally finish 6M DXCC last year. The prevailing DXer's are all over the map on where to set the threshold on HF bands. I've decided to set slope/threshold to 12/12 here based upon some measurements. Attached is the curve I generated. The threshold determines where the AGC action starts. The slope is how fast the audio rises with increasing signal above this point. 73 de Brian/K3KO On 1/17/2013 16:15, Chad Wasinger wrote: Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for receiving weak cw signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my settings for listening to at the noise 2 meter and 6 meter beacons. Thanks!ChadN0YK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2638/5539 - Release Date: 01/17/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings for weak signal CW
Chad, You will be better off setting the AGC parameters to match your operating needs. Go to my website www.w3fpr.com and read the article on Noisy K3 to guilde you. The menu parameters have been expanded since that article was written, but the principles are the same, but they now cover a greater range. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/17/2013 11:15 AM, Chad Wasinger wrote: Would anyone be willing to share their preferred AGC settings for receiving weak cw signals? Specifically, I'm wanting to fine tune my settings for listening to at the noise 2 meter and 6 meter beacons. Thanks!ChadN0YK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings used in CQ WW CW
G'day Prior to the CQ WW CW contest, I did some experimentation with the K3 AGC settings (rev 4.51 firmware). I started with the AGC SLP set to 0 and the AGC THR to 8. After some problems with the AGC action on stronger signals (S9 to S9 plus), I increased the SLP to 2 and found that there was no longer any need to turn the AGC off and ride the RF gain on these signals. These settings worked well for me here in Western Australia, but the signal levels aren't as high as they would be in Europe or North America. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51
Hello All, I own a K3, am running MCU 4.51, and operate virtually 100% cw. With respect to MCU 4.51, I note that the software site says, AGC IMPROVEMENTS: AGC threshold (CONFIG:AGC THR) can now be set much higher, and the AGC has better (more monotonic) response curves. Greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher. NR and Auto-Notch can be used at all threshold settings. I set the AGC threshold up to 12 and find that stronger signals are too loud and strident, while weak signals are almost inaudible. I have the AGC decay on 'soft'; AGC hold on 0.00; AGC pls on 'nor'; AGC slp on 010, AGC F(ast) at 120. I'd like to survey K3 users (using MCU 4.51) WHO ARE SERIOUS CW CONTEST OPS WHO LIKE TO RUN, as to their preferred AGC settings (all of them, not just threshold). Thanks much for the input from the cw contesters who like to run! 73, -Rich, W2EG __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51
Here are my AGC settings: AGC Decay: soft Hld: 0.2 Pls: nor Slp: 0 Thr: 20 F: 200 AF lim: nor 030 Here are my observations, using those settings, during WPX CW: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Rev-4-51-firmware-what-AGC-settings-worked-on-big-pile-ups-with-loud-AND-weak-signals-in-the-WPX-td7556676.html#a7556700 Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, Arizona -Original Message- From: Richard Lee Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 2:07 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC settings w/ MCU 4.51 Hello All, I own a K3, am running MCU 4.51, and operate virtually 100% cw. With respect to MCU 4.51, I note that the software site says, AGC IMPROVEMENTS: AGC threshold (CONFIG:AGC THR) can now be set much higher, and the AGC has better (more monotonic) response curves. Greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher. NR and Auto-Notch can be used at all threshold settings. I set the AGC threshold up to 12 and find that stronger signals are too loud and strident, while weak signals are almost inaudible. I have the AGC decay on 'soft'; AGC hold on 0.00; AGC pls on 'nor'; AGC slp on 010, AGC F(ast) at 120. I'd like to survey K3 users (using MCU 4.51) WHO ARE SERIOUS CW CONTEST OPS WHO LIKE TO RUN, as to their preferred AGC settings (all of them, not just threshold). Thanks much for the input from the cw contesters who like to run! 73, -Rich, W2EG __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 - AGC Slope and Hold
With firmware 4.51 what seems to be the consensus for contesting, both SSB and CW for AGC Slope and Hold settings? Still playing with settings. We get strong US/EU pileups and a mixture of strong and weak pileups from AS. Presently using SLP=1, THR=9. Anything special about any of the other AGC settings? Getting ready for KP2M. 73, N2TK, Tony __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC Version 4.51 signal measurements
Hi all, Like many, I haven't been able to find a decent pileup the last few days to test the version 4.51 AGC. I don't use the NR or notch function either so have concentrated on making some measurements using the XG3 as a signal generator. The figure on http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/agc-4-51 shows some measurements I did with the 4.51 version AGC using the XG3 as a signal generator. For each of the three signal levels from the XG3 -- -107, -73, and -33 dBm, I used the 10 dB attenuator and 10 dB preamp to get 9 different signal levels. Observations: As THR increases, the effect of SLP decreases. At THR=20, SLP is essential 15 for all values of SLP (I tested SLP=0, 7, and 15). This is the upper curve on the figure. As THR decreases, SLP begins to take effect. At THR=15, SLP values between 0 and 7 are the same while between 7 and 15 an effect is seen. At THR=8 the full range of SLP is effective. Changing SLP behavior as a function of THR has been done to protect the user's ears. 73 and cheers, Fred, KE7X The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Version 4.51 signal measurements
Cady, Fred wrote: Observations: As THR increases, the effect of SLP decreases.Changing SLP behavior as a function of THR has been done to protect the user's ears. Correct. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Hi All: Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it. de W4CCS On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Short version: It's still in the kitchen. Long version: This is still in pre-beta, being evaluated by a goodly number of hams who volunteered to test it before all the cooties were cleaned out. Some number of issues have been ferreted out, a couple serious, and there were some deliberate omissions to start, which after Wayne deals with them and reissues a public beta, won't be there to torture the rest of the adoptees. Historically these pre-beta's have sometimes gone through as many as 4 or 5 pre-beta cycles before being seen on the web site...and for good reason :). If you don't like running into cooties, you'll just have to wait it out. Or if that sounds like a fun game, send a note direct to Wayne (not the reflector) to join the pre-beta self-flagellation club. Just be warned that you run into stuff in the pre-beta club. That's the point. 73, Guy. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:58 AM, W4CCS w4...@w4ccs.com wrote: Hi All: Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it. de W4CCS On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC
The last word from Aptos was that they were still testing the new changes. I am sure they will release it to beta when it is ready. -- Mike W0MU W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
No thanks Guy. I'll just wait for the brave ones to work out all the cooties.. Thanks W4CCS On 5/10/2012 11:32 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Short version: It's still in the kitchen. Long version: This is still in pre-beta, being evaluated by a goodly number of hams who volunteered to test it before all the cooties were cleaned out. Some number of issues have been ferreted out, a couple serious, and there were some deliberate omissions to start, which after Wayne deals with them and reissues a public beta, won't be there to torture the rest of the adoptees. Historically these pre-beta's have sometimes gone through as many as 4 or 5 pre-beta cycles before being seen on the web site...and for good reason :). If you don't like running into cooties, you'll just have to wait it out. Or if that sounds like a fun game, send a note direct to Wayne (not the reflector) to join the pre-beta self-flagellation club. Just be warned that you run into stuff in the pre-beta club. That's the point. 73, Guy. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:58 AM, W4CCSw4...@w4ccs.com wrote: Hi All: Just wondering if this was released.. If so, I cannot find it. de W4CCS On 5/8/2012 10:59 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Hi Guys, Is any new alpha fw version? I was looking into my yesterday emails but could't find it, I am still on 4.50/2.74. Anything new? VE3GNO Daniel From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Still testing. Wayne On May 9, 2012, at 8:42 AM, VE3GNO Daniel wrote: Hi Guys, Is any new alpha fw version? I was looking into my yesterday emails but could't find it, I am still on 4.50/2.74. Anything new? VE3GNO Daniel From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Bill, What! You mean you don't want them to pass it through three or four levels of management, design, Gant chart creation, quality control and documentation before releasing it to the developers! What are you? A bloated corporation hater? Remember! We owe it to the stockholders to appear we are doing a good job! ;o) 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member Retired: :o) F-111 Production Line Supervisor F-16 Production Line Supervisor Industrial Engineer Contract Software Developer On Mon, 7 May 2012 19:25:17 -0700, Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com wrote: As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company would act this way. It is very refreshing. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV [snip] __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Compared to the many others that have weighed in already, I am a few days late taking a look at the new firmware. It may have been worth the wait. In a nutshell, the new 4.50/2.74 works extremely well. I've been waiting for my K3 to really be able to perform in deep pileups, like I had thought it should. With the new firmware, it may be very close now. Even though it may be a few weeks (until CQWPX CW) when I can make a full evaluation, in fairly deep pileup conditions, I don't need extended testing to see a big improvement already. K6LL mentioned the difference is immediately obvious. I fully agree. The ability to be able to extend THR settings has noticeably cleaned things up. My sweet spot seems to be THR=15 and SLP=0 or 2. More evaluation to come. Tnx Elecraft Team for looking into this issue and releasing this pre-Beta. 73, Bob K8IA Arizona Outlaws Contest Club __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Hi everybody In evaluating the new firmware I use 2xK3, #791 #5752 * * *Initial conditions*: Rx Eq flat on booths rigs BW 700Hz, no CW roofing only 2.7KHz (5poles) AGC DCY –Soft AGC SLP -003 AGC FST -100 K3 #791 THR=14-17 (usually 14) K3 #5752 THR=5-8 (usually 7) Test: single signals, beacons around S3, S4 pileups 7O6T, 6O0CW Observations: 1. Signals appears to be cleaner with higher THR, but the difference it is not so big on my ears maybe because I am not dealing yet with a big pileup with S3/S4 signals BUT the sound is more nice and clear indeed. 2. I have to take care more with audio level on higher THR, and once I lost audio using THR=20. 3. QSB more intense on signals with newer firmware. Sometimes I even lost the signal on 2.74DSP while it is still copied at 2.73DSP. 4. Overall it is more pleasant to listen to with the new firmware version. Future tests: 1. small expeditions in the field. 2. make some recordings. 73! Adi Yo2liw -- == Adrian Toplician 0721 367 850 Timisoara YO2LIW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
On my side I am ready to load it and stress little bit the radio flash with new build :-) tnx Wayne VE3GNO Daniel From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) Just a reminder: There will be further improved K3 firmware available later today. It will allow NR and autonotch at all settings, and will fix the audio-dropout problem some have reported. Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement! It didn't take any extensive testing to reach that conclusion. The difference is immediately obvious. As mentioned previously, with low values of slope and high values of threshold, loud signals blank out with the current firmware release, so the most aggressive combinations can't be used now. Threshold 15 and slope 0 seem to work pretty well though. I am listening to 20 meter cw now with two K3's. Rig 1 has the new firmware, with threshold 15 and slope 0. Rig 2 has threshold 8 and slope 0 with the current mainstream firmware. Rig 1 sounds MUCH cleaner, both on the loud W1AW code practice signal, and on the 7O6T pileup. The pileup is not too deep on any one frequency, so it's not the ultimate test, but signals do sound much cleaner on rig 1. If more aggressive values of slope and threshold can be accommodated without the blanking effect, the improvement will be even greater.Elecraft is definitely on the right track here. Thanks for working on this issue! Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, Arizona -Original Message- From: Wayne Burdick Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 4:06 PM To: Elecraft Wayne Burdick - N6KR Subject: K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) Hi all (everyone is BCC'd on this), As I mentioned, we've made some improvements to the K3's DSP AGC. No hardware changes are being made this time. This is strictly a firmware change to the MCU and DSPs. One change will benefit the AGC at all settings: elimination of the interpolation errors in the AGC onset curve. This by itself adds some clarity to signals. The other change allows the AGC THR parameter to be set to a higher value -- up to 20. The original default (5) put the threshold for AGC onset to around S2 or S3, and the max was 8 (about S4-S5). A setting of about 11 now puts the threshold around S7, and the new max of 20 puts it around S8-S9. Any signals below the threshold should not activate DSP AGC at all. (Hardware AGC is not affected by the changes; it still kicks in around S9+20 dB.) Two interesting side-effects of raising the threshold: (1) noise blanking may seem to be much more effective than before; (2) QSB on weak signals may be more noticeable. ** IMPORTANT: Please set AGC SLP (slope) to something above 0, for now, as this appears to cause problems. Setting AGC THR above 8 will *temporarily disable* auto-notch and noise reduction. The switches and NR level control will still behave the same, but they will have no effect unless you set the threshold back to 8 or lower. We may make the threshold per-mode in a later release so that, for example, you could set a high threshold for CW but still have a threshold of 8 or lower for other modes, allowing NR and auto-notch to still work in this case. The reason autonotch and NR must be disabled for high-threshold AGC is that the dynamic range of signals can be an order of magnitude higher. We'll be experimenting further to see if NR and autonotch can be modified to still allow their use with high thresholds. But generally speaking, pileup conditions in CW (the principle target) don't require the use of NR, and autonotch doesn't apply to CW. *** Keep in mind that it may be difficult to reproduce the conditions under which in-band IMD has been reported. Most operators have claimed it was caused by dozens (maybe even hundreds!) of signals in the S5 or lower range, all practically on top of each other. This effect has gotten worse in recent years due to the prevalence of spotting. Short of actually heading for a DX QTH, you may not be able to reproduce the conditions accurately. But it is true that some operators prefer a higher AGC threshold in general, while allowing AGC to remain turned on. You'll now have that capability with the K3. This has been touted as a difference in favor of some other radios. Not any more :) The new firmware is attached. As with a beta release, you'll need to unzip (extract) the files and put them somewhere easily located, usually on the desktop, then tell K3 Utility where to find it. You must load all of the new code, so use the send all option. Make sure after loading that your MCU is at rev 4.50 and both DSP and AUX DSP at 2.74. Please test the new code in a variety of conditions. If you have two K3s, please put the new firmware on one of them, set them both up identically, and compare them by switching the antenna between the two radios. Assuming it passes your own tests, feel free to pass it on to anyone who you think might benefit from it, including those planning DXpeditions (or even *at* a DXpedition, if they're willing and able to try a new firmware load). Also, by all means post your observations to the Elecraft reflector (or elsewhere). If all goes well, we can release this as beta code next week. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
On 5/7/2012 1:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement! It didn't take any extensive testing to reach that conclusion. The difference is immediately obvious. That's very good news. Possibly a beta release this week or maybe next, I hope. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks for working on this issue! = This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed, there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
HI All, What do they say in the song, No one does it better. Thank you Elecraft, this is why so many of us are rabidly happy about your product. It helps to have hams running the company which engineers ham radio only. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tony Estep Sent: 07 May 2012 22:42 To: Elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks for working on this issue! = This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed, there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Now if we could convince ANY vehicle manufacturer to have the same attitude, designers that are also mechanics (without the need for an MSEE)... Maybe we'd have a chance to work under the hood again like we can with Elecraft. Rick wa6nhc :o) -Original Message- From: Doug Turnbull It helps to have hams running the company which engineers ham radio only. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no Beta... Clues for the clueless? Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the next week or so once the field test reports were in and they were satisfied with it. It sure sounds like a really good job on the AGC, I guess patience is in order ... I know, hard for this list and these products. :-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org On 5/7/2012 3:59 PM, David F. Reed wrote: I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no Beta... Clues for the clueless? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no Beta... Clues for the clueless? Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
I just talked to Lyle. Looks like by tomorrow we'll have a version of DSP code that allows NR and autonotch to be used at all threshold settings, and fixes the high-signal issue some had reported. I'll send it out to everyone who got the last test version. Wayne N6KR Fred Jensen wrote: I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the next week or so __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
We in the IT business call it Alpha and you don't send it to anybody who can't figure out how to fix a broken system. In this case it's pretty easy, reset the radio and reload a backed up FW and config. I would call what Wayne is doing this time Beta and when it is released on the website for general testing, Beta 2. On 05/07/2012 06:50 PM, Cady, Fred wrote: Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Great! I have sent the SW to about 5 people. Mike W0MU W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 5/7/2012 5:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: I just talked to Lyle. Looks like by tomorrow we'll have a version of DSP code that allows NR and autonotch to be used at all threshold settings, and fixes the high-signal issue some had reported. I'll send it out to everyone who got the last test version. Wayne N6KR Fred Jensen wrote: I think Wayne's post indicated it would be released as a beta in the next week or so __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company would act this way. It is very refreshing. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote: This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed, there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word. - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Beta Beta. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no Beta... Clues for the clueless? Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Bill, True, true -- but the situation with the KX3 is different than what has transpired with previous products. Previously, the conversations of the Field Testers have been on a private forum. While that is still true with the KX3, there is a lot more information that is in the open. My guess is that it is due to the KX3 Yahoo Group, where a lot of questions are posed. Wayne and Eric have been willing to respond to a number of those questions, and I believe that has set the stage for the present level of 'openness'. From my standpoint, Thank You other Elecraft customers for being patient while the process of final development, Field Test, and production ramp-up are taking place. There are a few that expect immediate results to problems, but for the most part, customers have been very accepting of the inevitable delays in (optimistic) plans, and the resulting turmoil that each delay can create inside Elecraft. Delays in the original plan (SWAG) are inevitable. It is impossible to attempt to predict the schedule of another company ( read 'supplier') until you have commitments for price, quantity and schedule in place, and that is difficult to accomplish unless you have real numbers that the supplier can quote on. That is only one of the possible things that can happen. I have observed that the KX3 plan and schedule has been more open and transparent than most previous products. Whether that is good or bad depends on the customer acceptance of supplier delays, field test reports that result in tweaks to the product, or problems in training new people to enable ramp up to full production status. So far all is well, but the future remains to be seen. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/7/2012 10:25 PM, Bill Frantz wrote: As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company would act this way. It is very refreshing. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote: This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed, there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word. - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Making a great rig even better. Totally stoked to play with the radio with the new firmware. To my ears, this AGC change is a MAJOR improvement! It didn't take any extensive testing to reach that conclusion. The difference is immediately obvious. As mentioned previously, with low values of slope and high values of threshold, loud signals blank out with the current firmware release, so the most aggressive combinations can't be used now. Threshold 15 and slope 0 seem to work pretty well though. I am listening to 20 meter cw now with two K3's. Rig 1 has the new firmware, with threshold 15 and slope 0. Rig 2 has threshold 8 and slope 0 with the current mainstream firmware. Rig 1 sounds MUCH cleaner, both on the loud W1AW code practice signal, and on the 7O6T pileup. The pileup is not too deep on any one frequency, so it's not the ultimate test, but signals do sound much cleaner on rig 1. If more aggressive values of slope and threshold can be accommodated without the blanking effect, the improvement will be even greater.Elecraft is definitely on the right track here. Thanks for working on this issue! Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, Arizona __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Sorry, I was responding to the wrong post. While the content is valid for what it is, it is in response to a post on the KX3 Yahoo Group, and has nothing to do with the K3 AGC. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/7/2012 10:53 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Bill, True, true -- but the situation with the KX3 is different than what has transpired with previous products. Previously, the conversations of the Field Testers have been on a private forum. While that is still true with the KX3, there is a lot more information that is in the open. My guess is that it is due to the KX3 Yahoo Group, where a lot of questions are posed. Wayne and Eric have been willing to respond to a number of those questions, and I believe that has set the stage for the present level of 'openness'. From my standpoint, Thank You other Elecraft customers for being patient while the process of final development, Field Test, and production ramp-up are taking place. There are a few that expect immediate results to problems, but for the most part, customers have been very accepting of the inevitable delays in (optimistic) plans, and the resulting turmoil that each delay can create inside Elecraft. Delays in the original plan (SWAG) are inevitable. It is impossible to attempt to predict the schedule of another company ( read 'supplier') until you have commitments for price, quantity and schedule in place, and that is difficult to accomplish unless you have real numbers that the supplier can quote on. That is only one of the possible things that can happen. I have observed that the KX3 plan and schedule has been more open and transparent than most previous products. Whether that is good or bad depends on the customer acceptance of supplier delays, field test reports that result in tweaks to the product, or problems in training new people to enable ramp up to full production status. So far all is well, but the future remains to be seen. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/7/2012 10:25 PM, Bill Frantz wrote: As a retired software developer, what amazes me is the way Wayne and company are performing their beta test. No NDA. It looks like almost anyone can sign up. Problems and future intentions are discussed in a public forum. I am blown away that a company would act this way. It is very refreshing. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 5/7/12 at 14:41, estept...@gmail.com (Tony Estep) wrote: This is a real-life example of a terrific attitude toward customer satisfaction. When this issue was first raised, the company could have been defensive and simply asserted that there was no problem -- those of us who have been doing this for a while can easily think of nearly identical situations wherein other ham manufacturers have done exactly that. Indeed, there were comments on this reflector offhandedly dismissing the queries about signal mush. But not from the design team; they took it to heart and dug through the problem with a serious desire to replicate it if possible, and to figure out the source and attack it. And did it right in the middle of the big production crunch with the KX3, and with no specific financial payoff in mind. The payoff is in knowing that no stone has been left unturned to make the K3 the best DX/contest machine it can be, and that the hams who appreciate that will spread the word. - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
On May 7, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Beta Beta. Meaning, I presume, it's a beta Beta than the first Beta. Well, I guess we beta that to death Bud, W2RU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Software developers call it alpha. Greek alphabet ya know -- alpha, beta, gamma... I guess gamma must be the production release. David K0LUM At 10:42 PM -0400 5/7/12, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Beta Beta. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
*Without the radiation I hope..:-) gary * On 8 May 2012 13:18, David Christ radio...@mchsi.com wrote: Software developers call it alpha. Greek alphabet ya know -- alpha, beta, gamma... I guess gamma must be the production release. David K0LUM At 10:42 PM -0400 5/7/12, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Beta Beta. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Not to worry. Your comments are a fine description of why in exchange for openness on the part of the vendor, the customers (we) need to exhibit patients when the inevitable things go wrong and things take longer than everyone hoped. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 5/7/12 at 19:58, w3...@embarqmail.com (Don Wilhelm) wrote: Sorry, I was responding to the wrong post. - Bill Frantz| When it comes to the world | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | around us, is there any choice | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | but to explore? - Lisa Randall | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74)
Alpha... 73, Tom Amateur Radio Operator N5GE ARRL Lifetime Member QCWA Lifetime Member On Mon, 7 May 2012 17:50:01 -0600, Cady, Fred fc...@ece.montana.edu wrote: Hi Dave, It's not beta yet. I don't know what they call it -- gamma??? Cheers and 73, Fred The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation www.ke7x.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David F. Reed Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:00 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC improvements (MCU rev 4.50 / DSP 2.74) I cannot seem to locate where to download this; I can only see 4.48, no Beta... Clues for the clueless? Thanks and 73 de Dave, W5SV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.
The latest version of the K3 firmware (4.48) has eased that problem for me and HRD. The problem has been on the todo list for HRD for a long time, hopefully they will fix it before they switch to charging for HRD. 73 John K3TN -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-turning-off-tp7514447p7516533.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.
I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective measure(s). My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off for no reason, even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we are using HRD and the version we have is 5.11 build 3209. Any additional feedback would be a appreciated. Bill - W0BBI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.
Bill, When it comes out in the next couple of days, download the 5.2x version of HRD. It should resolve this issue. If not, the new owners of HRD plan to have it corrected in v6.0, which comes out the week of Dayton. --Ian Ian Kahn, KM4IK Roswell, GA EM74ua km4ik@gmail.com K3 #281, P3 #688 HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Bill Wiehe bw39...@yahoo.com wrote: I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective measure(s). My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off for no reason, even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we are using HRD and the version we have is 5.11 build 3209. Any additional feedback would be a appreciated. Bill - W0BBI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC turning off.
Bill If you install Lpbridge which is a port sharing utility which sits between the K3 and up to 5 applications wanting to communicate with the radio, then the problem will disappear! It looks daunting to set up, but in reality it's easy. Problem solved! 73 Stephen G4SJP On 30 April 2012 19:00, Bill Wiehe bw39...@yahoo.com wrote: I have seen this topic posted but I guess I missed the corrective measure(s). My K3 has the latest update and the AGC still just turns off for no reason, even when it is just sitting there in receive mode. Yes we are using HRD and the version we have is 5.11 build 3209. Any additional feedback would be a appreciated. Bill - W0BBI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC off using HRD, Question
I know this has been discussed, but I didn't see the following mentioned. I installed the latest HRD Beta V5b2893. The AGC still switches off at times on my K3. I noticed in the Options, Info CAT support, for K-3 radio, the AGC-off command for on/off is set to the same value. Logically, it looks like OFF should be OFF=GT0040. (I wanted to verify this with the K-3 CAT commands in my Elecraft literature, but I can't find any.) I am waiting to be accepted into the HRD Forum to post this. (It's been a few hours.) It could be quite awhile before it is corrected. In the meantime, could the f/w be temporarily modified to allow the user to null the AGC-off feature in the CAT commands (or radio) until it is changed in HRD? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Audio Test Files
I ran into a few problems when I tried to send the wav files as email attachments; turns out they were all too big unless cut up into 5 minute slices. Instead, I posted them to my website at https://sites.google.com/site/w1uehamradio/ where they are available for download. I cut the files into 15 minute slices, and was able to post 7 slices before I ran into the web site maximum storage figure. Comments welcome. Dennis W1UE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Results
I performed the AGC mod as suggested by Wayne N6KR in his K3 Hardware AGC Experiment shows promise posting on Dec 4. The mod was to add an additional 1 or 2 uf of capacitance onto C238 on the Main Receiver PCB. I obtained my own SMT caps from Mouser, and for 76cents and 30 minutes of time the mod was made. Initial testing with the mod at my house was done between the Main and Sub Rx; the Main had the mod, the Sub didn't. From perusing the schematics, it appears that they have different AGC systems. The signals on the Main Rx seemed to have a slightly purer CW note; the effect of the pile-up mush also seemed to be less evident. Not wanting to jump the gun, I decided to take the modified K3 down to a station with a big 160M array and test out the mod there. I set up two K3s identically with AGC settings, and fed them with the same antenna signal. I did modify my signal path from the original write-up; the Main Antenna went into Ant 1 of K3(1), out the Ant Out to a splitter, the to Ant In of K3(1) and K3(2). I protected the front end of both K3s by putting both into transmit when I transmitted (using a macro into the N1MM messages for K3(2)), and put K3(2) into TEST mode so I didn't accidentally put any power out of K3. I also recorded the contest, with each K3 on a different channel so that the audio could be readily compared. My results mirrored those of my preliminary tests with the the Main and Sub Rx; the mod provides a small but noticeable improvement in pileup situations. All cw signals seemed to have a slightly purer note to them. After my original posting, several ops suggested I use a SLP setting of 7 or 8, to get more AGC action. I decided to keep my SLP setting at 0, as that has been my normal setting for awhile. I also felt that if I got an improvement at that setting, it would be even more noticeable at a higher setting. I did plan on changing the setting after several hours of operation, but never got the chance; I operated a little less than 3 hours. The amplifier decided it didn't like the antenna, and kept faulting off. After spending an hour trying to figure out what the problem was, I gave up and went home. If anyone would like an hour worth of audio, send me an email. The unmodified K3 is on the left channel, and the modified K3 is on the right channel. Dennis W1UE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS
Guy, The K3 NoiseBlanker does a real good job here. Give it a moderate setting and it will work fine. 73, Arie PA3A Op 16-12-2011 6:04, Guy Olinger K2AV schreef: Yeah, but then don't key clicks punch up your slow AGC?73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Ralph Parkerve...@dccnet.com wrote: - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Dave: My next experiment will be to have an N1MM logging program macro available to send RF Gain command RG090 if a loud pileup shows up. RF Gain will be returned to 200 by appending the RG200 command to the thank you message. This should be the ultimate in riding the RF gain control. *EXCELLENT* idea! Thanks for the tip! -lu- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Dennis, Thanks for this try-out! I'm looking forward to hear the results. Some suggestions: - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. - maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active in your test - set AGC to F 73, Arie PA3A Op 14-12-2011 22:53, Dennis schreef: AGC parameters: DCY Soft HLD .30 PLS Nor SLP 000 THR 008 F 120 S 020 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow. All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0 Preamp Off Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same. Crystal Filter- 400Hz Bandwidth setting- 400Hz __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Slope 0 flattens the agc response. Have a look at some curves on The AGC Story on ke7x.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Arie Kleingeld PA3A Sent: Thu 12/15/2011 3:08 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend Dennis, Thanks for this try-out! I'm looking forward to hear the results. Some suggestions: - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. - maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active in your test - set AGC to F 73, Arie PA3A Op 14-12-2011 22:53, Dennis schreef: AGC parameters: DCY Soft HLD .30 PLS Nor SLP 000 THR 008 F 120 S 020 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow. All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0 Preamp Off Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same. Crystal Filter- 400Hz Bandwidth setting- 400Hz __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Dennis I'd consider the following minor tweaks to your AGC settings: HLD 0.20 AGS-S 040 Most importantly, set your RF Gain back so that the S-meters rest above the residual noise floor (including clicks, phase noise, etc). Once RF Gain is set, then adjust AF Gain to suit your ears/headphones. I would definitely try to find some pileups before the contest to confirm your AGC settings are not too slow for reasonable recovery in fast-paced exchanges. I would also not be using QSK. Of course you can try changing any of your settings during the contest to eliminate/induce mush. 73 GL! Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AGC-Mod-Test-This-Weekend-tp7095282p7097571.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Fred, Maybe I did not express it right: I want some more activity from the AGC means for me: audio response more flat with different signal levels. SLP 15 is most flat audio level in this case. 73, Arie PA3A Op 15-12-2011 15:17, Cady, Fred schreef: Slope 0 flattens the agc response. Have a look at some curves on The AGC Story on ke7x.com -Original Message- Some suggestions: - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. - maybe set the SLP to 8 or higher. This will make the AGC more active in your test - set AGC to F 73, Arie PA3A __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
Here are what I consider to be the best contest CW settings for the K3: config AF GAIN = HIGH (to increase overall post-AGC gain) config AGC DCY = SOFT config AGC HLD = 0.20 config AGC PLS = NOR config AGC SLP = 000 (steepest) config AGC THR = 008 (highest) config AGC - F = 200 (fastest) config AGC - S = 020 Front panel select AGC FAST Front panel AF GAIN as loud as your ears can stand, 3 o'clock for me. Attenuator definitely ON, and preamp OFF for 160 (unless using separate RX antenna). Front Panel RF Gain set to show 1 or 2 S-units of band noise meter wiggle (about 1 o'clock for me) I know that selecting AGC SLOW on the front panel is supposed to reduce IMD, but for me, the mushiness is due to the aggressiveness of the K3's AGC curve, not IMD. Slow AGC also introduces desensing due to static crashes and other loud transients, so is undesirable for that reason. My next experiment will be to have an N1MM logging program macro available to send RF Gain command RG090 if a loud pileup shows up. RF Gain will be returned to 200 by appending the RG200 command to the thank you message. This should be the ultimate in riding the RF gain control. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ -Original Message- From: Dennis Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:53 PM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend This weekend I will be participating in the Stew Perry 160M contest, as will many of you. For the contest, I've arranged to do some testing of the IMD Mod as put forth by N6KR in a recent email. I will have two K3s available, one with the IMD mod (2uf in parallel with the .1uf already on the pcb) and one without the mod. The audio from each will be run to a sound card and one radio will be on the left channel, and the other radio on the right channel, so it will be easy to compare the two audio streams. K3s will be setup as follows: Same MCU and DSP firmware AGC parameters: DCY Soft HLD .30 PLS Nor SLP 000 THR 008 F 120 S 020 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow. All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0 Preamp Off Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same. Crystal Filter- 400Hz Bandwidth setting- 400Hz Headphone audio from an SO2R Box will be routed to the sound card for recording. The program I use to record the audio will give me 1-hour wav files. RF gain adjusted to same number on both radios via N1MM Cat command Main Antenna will go through K3(1) Ant 1 jack K3(1) Ant Out will go to K3(2) Ant 1 Jack K3(2) will have power reduced to zero and in TEST mode K3(2) will also be put into transmit mode, but not keyed, when K3(1) is transmitting by using N1MM Cat commands {CAT2ASC TX;} CQ SP W1UE W1UE {CAT2ASC RX;} By putting K3(2) into Tx mode when keying K3(1), I'm figuring the front ends on both radios will not be damaged. The antenna in use will be a 160M 4-square, so I'm confident there will be plenty of signal for both rigs. If there is a better way to do this, I'm listening. So that I don't have to listen to 14 hours of audio to find some mush, I will also be keeping a log of the times when I do hear it. I'm particularly interested to see if I can actually hear the difference in audio from this reduction in IMD. Comments as to my setup, and suggestions on other things that I may want to standardize, are appreciated. Dennis W1UE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS
- switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. AHA! Tnx, Arie. I have noticed this many times, and was unable to determine what caused it. Ralph, VE7XF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC PLS
Yeah, but then don't key clicks punch up your slow AGC?73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote: - switch the PLS off. My experience in CW contests is that the PLS function will treat fast strong CW signals as pulses and will bypass the slow AGC for the first few dots of a signal. AHA! Tnx, Arie. I have noticed this many times, and was unable to determine what caused it. Ralph, VE7XF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 AGC Mod Test This Weekend
This weekend I will be participating in the Stew Perry 160M contest, as will many of you. For the contest, I've arranged to do some testing of the IMD Mod as put forth by N6KR in a recent email. I will have two K3s available, one with the IMD mod (2uf in parallel with the .1uf already on the pcb) and one without the mod. The audio from each will be run to a sound card and one radio will be on the left channel, and the other radio on the right channel, so it will be easy to compare the two audio streams. K3s will be setup as follows: Same MCU and DSP firmware AGC parameters: DCY Soft HLD .30 PLS Nor SLP 000 THR 008 F 120 S 020 AGC as selected using front panel push button will be slow. All RxEq will be flat, ie. 0 Preamp Off Att- haven't decided on this yet, but both radios will be the same. Crystal Filter- 400Hz Bandwidth setting- 400Hz Headphone audio from an SO2R Box will be routed to the sound card for recording. The program I use to record the audio will give me 1-hour wav files. RF gain adjusted to same number on both radios via N1MM Cat command Main Antenna will go through K3(1) Ant 1 jack K3(1) Ant Out will go to K3(2) Ant 1 Jack K3(2) will have power reduced to zero and in TEST mode K3(2) will also be put into transmit mode, but not keyed, when K3(1) is transmitting by using N1MM Cat commands {CAT2ASC TX;} CQ SP W1UE W1UE {CAT2ASC RX;} By putting K3(2) into Tx mode when keying K3(1), I'm figuring the front ends on both radios will not be damaged. The antenna in use will be a 160M 4-square, so I'm confident there will be plenty of signal for both rigs. If there is a better way to do this, I'm listening. So that I don't have to listen to 14 hours of audio to find some mush, I will also be keeping a log of the times when I do hear it. I'm particularly interested to see if I can actually hear the difference in audio from this reduction in IMD. Comments as to my setup, and suggestions on other things that I may want to standardize, are appreciated. Dennis W1UE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html