Re: [Elecraft] Gurus, Giving Up & Group Therapy

[Thorsten Fricke]

Am 10.06.21 um 19:24 schrieb Joseph Shuman via Elecraft:

Humor on this Board is sometimes misunderstood.  Oh well…


That would really be a BIG issue, I hope this is not really true!


My 3 rules:

1.  If my $100.00 built from scratch and spare parts radio successfully 
communicates with your state of the art shack, my hobby has succeeded.

2.  Everybody has an opinion and all of them are correct, but mine is more 
correct for me than yours.

3.  There is very little on this board about the KX2 so it must be the closest 
to perfect radio out there Elecraft has designed.  That is why I own one.


*lol* For info about the KX2 you might check the "Elecraft-KX" distro,
but even there... not much to say.

As a KX2 user myself I can only fully agree to your point 3, though I
have to admit, that my "new" K3 (sn 33xx) is also a very nice toy and I
am slowly getting used to it.


Is the true spirit of the “Elmer” part of your hobby?


I wouldn't be where I am without my fellow OMs that are guiding and
leading me to success... still a way to go, but... that's part of the
game, isn't it?


Keeping Watch-
shu
Joe Shuman, NZ8P


As said, fully agree with you
Thossi, DH4FT

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I don't know what to say about the call I just got: K7FU.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Julia Tuttle wrote:


Oh, I know, it was a deliberate choice -- my Elmer (from, jeez, 20 years
ago) K1AJ said he picked his for the sound, so I did too.

I do occasionally get out on CW with it though!

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 00:35 Buddy Brannan  wrote:


Man, what a great cw call, totally wasted on FT8 :-)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: bu...@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962




On Jun 10, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Julia Tuttle 

wrote:


It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my

(noisy,

urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the
couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet,
rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS  wrote:


I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've
worked?73,Gary K9GS
 Original message From: Bill Johnson 
Date: 6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona <

alor...@sbcglobal.net>,

Julia Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here,
Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great

day!BillFrom:

elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on
behalf of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8,

2021

9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second
"above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest

performing

rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different

aspect

of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool,
and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood
list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for
digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest..but I'll be darned if it

isn't

just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a

work

of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more

approachable/friendly

for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is
tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get

what

makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the
same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <
alor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I

had

composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next

morning, as

I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say

that

I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood.

Thousands of

hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in

some

way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And

yet,

if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like

Dayton

expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you

answer

the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">>
You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we
constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which>
horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our

personal>

experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but

Brand A>

must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be

guys

who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest

dynamic

range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually

hear

the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual
operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes

made a

comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have

laughed

at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking
about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order

dynamic

range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this
ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has
said that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this
post from 2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:>


http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html



Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear

someone>

else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic.

There>

are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the
least.>> Above all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4>
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Igor Sokolov]

KX3 protects itself from overloading signals by automatically switching 
preamp out and switching ATT on. If it happens  to you radio then you 
probably have overloaded RX issue. I am in the same situation here with 
KX3 and a neighbor only 1000 meters away. KX3 is pretty weak as far as 
BDR is concerned. K3 feels much better in the same environment.


73, Igor UA9CDC


10.06.2021 17:25, Dave B via Elecraft пишет:

Should be easy to gauge...

How "clean" (or otherwise) is his signal on your RX, with no antenna 
connected, and all the RX attenuation switched in.


Perhaps also fit a well screened dummy load to the rig's antenna port(s)

Also disconnecting just about everything else except the power (and 
put some ferrite on that!)


All that should greatly reduce the level of his signal that your radio 
"see's" to manageable proportions.


Even turn the RF gain down too if needed.

If he's not splattering as much or at all, then it is likley your RX 
is being overloaded.


If it sounds just as bad, and splattering just as wide, then likely 
it's his end.


Regards to All.

Dave G8KBV



On 10/06/2021 05:01, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end.



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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Alan - G4GNX]

I disagree.

The first rules of using test equipment are to calibrate it and RTFM, 
then maybe you can trust it.


73,

Alan. G4GNX


-- Original Message --
From: "Dean L" 
To: "Wes Stewart" ; "Elecraft Mail List" 


Sent: 10/06/2021 20:36:41
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus


looked at the videos and said, "Okay, where are the strengths?"

the fact that it's $100
Not looking to wage war just stating facts
The first rules of using test equipment you got to trust it...

73 all
Dean



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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Jim Brown]

YES!

Mutual friends and neighbors Garry, NI6T, and Dave, W6NL, are neighbors, 
very smart engineers, serious contesters, and live a few miles apart. 
W6NL is a retired EE prof, ran a major company, has a super contesting 
station on a mountaintop, where N5KO regularly wins CW Sprints.


Garry told me about calling Dave one day in the middle of a contest to 
tell him there was a problem with his station. Dave immediately took his 
station off the air. When they met a few days later at the local 
farmer's market, Dave told him about what was wrong and how he fixed it.


THAT'S how REAL hams do it.

73, Jim K9YC

On 6/10/2021 12:33 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

This discussion reminds me quite a few years back I was running a 756Pro and 
PW-1. Steve K6UM, a neighbor at the time, contacted me and said I had bad key 
clicks. I was glad he did. We got on the phone, made adjustments and resolved 
it. Prior to that I didn’t know the default CW rise time was way too fast and 
that letting ALC control exciter power was a terrible idea. I LEARNED something 
and it was FUN. When I stop learning things and having fun, I will leave this 
hobby. Not likely!

 From the Amateur’s Code. Seems as valid today as ever.

The Radio Amateur is

CONSIDERATE...He/[She] never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the 
pleasure of others.

PROGRESSIVE...He/[She] keeps his/[her] station up to date.  It is well-built 
and efficient.  His/[Her] operating practice is above reproach.

FRIENDLY...He/[She] operates slowly and patiently when requested; offers 
friendly advice and counsel to beginners; kind assistance, cooperation and 
consideration for the interests of others. These are the marks of the amateur 
spirit.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Gwen Patton]

Yes, precisely!

This CW signal was so normal on 15 meters that I tried replying to it. Then
I realized whose signal it was, and checked 40m, and there was the REAL
signal. That's why I said it was splattering all over. The audio was
slathered all over 40m for half the allocation, up into the phone segment
and below 7 mhz downward. But the RF was so clear 3 bands away that I
thought he was transmitting there. But I'm not as up on what can cause
that, and thought it might be something on MY end, so I didn't want to lay
anything even remotely like blame on anyone. For all I knew, it was
something weird with my antenna, or my radio, or something else, like
resonance with a guy wire (I've heard of that happening).

I'm not trying to badmouth anyone, I was just shocked that the signal was
SO pervasive!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
73,
Gwen, NG3P


On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 1:06 PM Andy Durbin  wrote:

> "Harmonics should only be heard on the harmonic frequency, not splatter
> across the entire band."
>
> That depends on whether you are talking about RF frequency harmonics or
> harmonics of the modulating audio frequency.  There is a plague of stations
> producing FT8 audio harmonics.   The problem is not helped by people
> insisting that the cure is proper ALC adjustment.   While there may be rigs
> that cause audio harmonics because of incorrect ALC adjustment it's far
> more likely that the clipping that causes these harmonics happens in the
> audio stages long before ALC is applied.
>
> Transmitting a clean signal is the responsibility of the operator not that
> of the rig manufacturer or software application provider.
>
> Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus, Giving Up & Group Therapy

[Jim Brown]

On 6/10/2021 10:24 AM, Joseph Shuman via Elecraft wrote:

  Everybody has an opinion and all of them are correct, but mine is more 
correct for me than yours.


Nope. The SCIENCE of almost everything about radio is long established. 
Some things we, as a society, are still learning about, like 
propagation, and new viruses.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but NOT to their own facts.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Eric Swartz]

*Thread Closed*

Folks - let's close this thread now as its -waaay- past the single topic
posting limit for the list.

I apologize for not stepping in earlier. I've been off the list for several
days running the business etc :-)

73,
Eric
List moderator etc.
*elecraft.com *


On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:58 PM Al Lorona  wrote:

> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept
> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.
>
> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the
> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.
> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many
> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.
>
> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places
> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would
> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any
> good?"
>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.
>
> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A
> must be better because the gurus say so."
>
> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver
> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never
> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.
>
> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most
> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his
> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's
> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:
> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking
> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that
> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016
> by one of the old guys on this reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Jim Brown]

On 6/10/2021 7:17 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
Contest stations operate on multiple bands from the same property 
without issue. Harmonics should only be heard on the harmonic frequency, 
not splatter across the entire band. You should not have a problem with 
a station over a mile away. What is your antenna and how it is fed?


YES. Here are slides from a talk I gave at Visalia two years ago on what 
it takes for multiple stations to operate in close proximity on the same 
band.

http://k9yc.com/Multi-Station.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dean L]

looked at the videos and said, "Okay, where are the strengths?"

the fact that it's $100
Not looking to wage war just stating facts
The first rules of using test equipment you got to trust it...

73 all
Dean

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 15:26 Wes  wrote:

> Dean's making the case I thought to make.  Couldn't agree more.
>
> Dave said: "Here is an interesting video showing both
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Josh Fiden]

This discussion reminds me quite a few years back I was running a 756Pro and 
PW-1. Steve K6UM, a neighbor at the time, contacted me and said I had bad key 
clicks. I was glad he did. We got on the phone, made adjustments and resolved 
it. Prior to that I didn’t know the default CW rise time was way too fast and 
that letting ALC control exciter power was a terrible idea. I LEARNED something 
and it was FUN. When I stop learning things and having fun, I will leave this 
hobby. Not likely!

From the Amateur’s Code. Seems as valid today as ever. 

The Radio Amateur is

CONSIDERATE...He/[She] never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the 
pleasure of others.

PROGRESSIVE...He/[She] keeps his/[her] station up to date.  It is well-built 
and efficient.  His/[Her] operating practice is above reproach.

FRIENDLY...He/[She] operates slowly and patiently when requested; offers 
friendly advice and counsel to beginners; kind assistance, cooperation and 
consideration for the interests of others. These are the marks of the amateur 
spirit.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Wes]

Dean's making the case I thought to make.  Couldn't agree more.

Dave said: "Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and 
weaknesses of the tinySA.


I looked at the videos and said, "Okay, where are the strengths?"

I spent a lot of years sitting in front of spectrum analyzers. One of the first 
things you want to do after
displaying signals of interest is to adjust the input attenuator up or down. If 
you add or remove10 dB of attenuation
and ALL of the signals do not change by exactly 10 dB, you have a linearity 
problem at that setting.  Don't use it, or

if you do, understand that you are getting bogus answers.

Likewise, if you have a really clean, stable source like a quality OCXO with 
published phase noise specs and you
measure it with your SA and it looks other than that, you're measuring your SA's 
shortcomings.  That's okay as

long as you understand them.

Wes  N7WS



On 6/10/2021 10:58 AM, Dean L wrote:

After watching the video of the TinySA next to the HP8921, I can't see how
you could EVER trust the results of the toy.
I watched as OM in the video was scratching his head wondering where the
artifacts on the display of the TinySA came from.
Did I watch the wrong video? If I didn't see the image captured by the HP,
I would have comd to different conclusions.




I was not impressed:
Same author different video,

https://youtu.be/uwXUZSdxNq4

  As he changed the amplitude the harmonics generated by the TinySA changed
accordingly making the signal look "dirty"
Great tool if you have a $10k Service monitor sitting right next to it...

I understand it's $100 gizmo, but might confuse an unsuspecting operator.


I would not fault my kilobuck HF rig with this unit
YMMV

73
Dean K2WW

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:23 Dave  wrote:


Interestingly enough I don't see that issue here with my K3, and tinySA.
   I also don't use the built in antenna.  I use a tap and attenuator
combination.

I am also using a non clone device, as opposed to a clone device.  Some
clones don't have the internal shielding.

Here is a compare to a clone vs a non clone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IzLAGgKg0

Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and weaknesses
of the tinySA.  A compare of the tinySA to an HP 8921A SA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ

For the price, and if one is careful, and aware of how to use the
tinySA, you can gain a lot of knowledge for around 100 bucks.

I am half tempted to buy one, and add a tap to my output coax, add
power, bring it to a very low input level, and just keep the tinySA on
all the time I operate, as an alarm that I might have an issue.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources


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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

Hi Julia,

Now I am confused...  I quoted the text I was responding to, then 
referenced that quote...  Your reply included the quoted text and my 
reference to it.


In any case I was replying to Gwen's response at 6:03 PM, quoted here, 
in my initial response, and in your response...


Here it is broken out from the quot mess:
On 6/9/21 6:03 PM, Gwen Patton wrote:
It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/10/21 11:30 AM, Julia Tuttle wrote:
I'm confused, I don't see any quoted text, unless you meant just "dirty 
transmitter". Whose post were you responding to?


On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 14:26 Dave mailto:d...@nk7z.net>> 
wrote:


My response was regarding the post talking about operators, see quoted
text quote in my response.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net 
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 6:03 PM, Gwen Patton wrote:
 > It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware. I talked
to the
 > ham involved, and he's a nice enough bloke. I have no beef with him.
 >
 > My antennas are, unfortunately, not designed with a useful null.
I have an
 > end feed W3EDP style that works very well, and a Comet CHA-250B
vertical.
 > Neither can reasonably be pointed to attenuate the signal.
 >
 > Gwen, NG3P
 >
 >
 > On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 8:51 PM Dave mailto:d...@nk7z.net>> wrote:
 >
 >> I must respectfully disagree sir...
 >>
 >> The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out
of spec.
 >>    The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
 >> That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there
 >> that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of
levels.
 >> They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they
work, and
 >> no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.
 >>
 >> They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it. 
Nicely, but

 >> told non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell
you you
 >> have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...
 >>
 >> Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
 >> responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
 >> absolving the operator of all responsibility...  It is the
operators job
 >> to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
 >> tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.
 >>
 >> If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should
not be
 >> allowed to transmit...
 >>
 >> There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC
specs...  How
 >> can that be you might ask yourself?
 >>
 >> In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to
drive the
 >> transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the
transmitter can
 >> cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there
are any
 >> number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
 >> specs...
 >>
 >> So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their
transmitter is
 >> spraying crap.
 >>
 >> On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
 >>> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is
simply
 >>> out of line.
 >>>
 >>> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his
rig in
 >>> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering
standards. He
 >>> uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing
problems. But
 >>> then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor
operator as a
 >>> bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
 >>> somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
 >>> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
 >>> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed
experts
 >>> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible
epidemic.
 >>> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
 >>> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the
time.   I
 >>> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to
talk about.
 >>>
 >>> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
 >>> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
 >>> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
 >>> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will 

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

Who said it was a trustworthy device?  I did not indicate you should 
trust it, I indicated it has use as an indicator of possible problems... 
 You are responding to perhaps someone else?


Here is the quote from my post:
>Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and 
weaknesses >of the tinySA.  A compare of the tinySA to an HP 8921A SA:

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ
>
>For the price, and if one is careful, and aware of how to use the 

>
>I am half tempted to buy one, and add a tap to my output coax, add 
>power, bring it to a very low input level, and just keep the tinySA on 
>all the time I operate, as an alarm that I might have an issue.



73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/10/21 10:58 AM, Dean L wrote:
After watching the video of the TinySA next to the HP8921, I can't see 
how you could EVER trust the results of the toy.
I watched as OM in the video was scratching his head wondering where the 
artifacts on the display of the TinySA came from.
Did I watch the wrong video? If I didn't see the image captured by the 
HP, I would have comd to different conclusions.





I was not impressed:
Same author different video,

https://youtu.be/uwXUZSdxNq4 <https://youtu.be/uwXUZSdxNq4>

  As he changed the amplitude the harmonics generated by the TinySA 
changed accordingly making the signal look "dirty"

Great tool if you have a $10k Service monitor sitting right next to it...

I understand it's $100 gizmo, but might confuse an unsuspecting operator.


I would not fault my kilobuck HF rig with this unit
YMMV

73
Dean K2WW

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:23 Dave mailto:d...@nk7z.net>> 
wrote:


Interestingly enough I don't see that issue here with my K3, and
tinySA.
   I also don't use the built in antenna.  I use a tap and attenuator
combination.

I am also using a non clone device, as opposed to a clone device.  Some
clones don't have the internal shielding.

Here is a compare to a clone vs a non clone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IzLAGgKg0
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IzLAGgKg0>

Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and weaknesses
of the tinySA.  A compare of the tinySA to an HP 8921A SA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ>

For the price, and if one is careful, and aware of how to use the
tinySA, you can gain a lot of knowledge for around 100 bucks.

I am half tempted to buy one, and add a tap to my output coax, add
power, bring it to a very low input level, and just keep the tinySA on
all the time I operate, as an alarm that I might have an issue.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/10/21 6:45 AM, N4ST - Jim wrote:
 > FWIW, be careful with your measurement process.
 > I got very depressed when I saw that my K3S had harmonics only
20db down on most bands when measured by Tiny SA and its telescoping
antenna.
 > It was not being overloaded and in fact I measured similar
results when feeding a dummy load.
 > Then I went outside the shack at a distance from the antennas and
found that the harmonics were 40dB down or better.
 > Evidently when measuring inside the shack I was getting RF
leakage directly through the front panel of the rig. (?).
 >
 > ___
 > 73,
 > Jim - N4ST
 >
 > -Original Message-
 > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
<mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net>
mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net>> On Behalf Of Dave
 > Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 23:01
 > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net <mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus
 >
 > Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the
tinySA
 > to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was
overdriven.  We
 > are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of
performance.
 >
 > 73, and thanks,
 > Dave (NK7Z)
 > https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
 > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
 > ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
 > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
 >
 > On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:
 >> I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.
 >>
 >> On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
 >>> Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the
 >>> Spectrum Analyzer software.  Take

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

I'm confused, I don't see any quoted text, unless you meant just "dirty
transmitter". Whose post were you responding to?

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 14:26 Dave  wrote:

> My response was regarding the post talking about operators, see quoted
> text quote in my response.
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 6/9/21 6:03 PM, Gwen Patton wrote:
> > It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware. I talked to the
> > ham involved, and he's a nice enough bloke. I have no beef with him.
> >
> > My antennas are, unfortunately, not designed with a useful null. I have
> an
> > end feed W3EDP style that works very well, and a Comet CHA-250B vertical.
> > Neither can reasonably be pointed to attenuate the signal.
> >
> > Gwen, NG3P
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 8:51 PM Dave  wrote:
> >
> >> I must respectfully disagree sir...
> >>
> >> The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
> >>The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
> >> That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there
> >> that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
> >> They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and
> >> no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.
> >>
> >> They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it.  Nicely, but
> >> told non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you
> >> have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...
> >>
> >> Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
> >> responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
> >> absolving the operator of all responsibility...  It is the operators job
> >> to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
> >> tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.
> >>
> >> If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be
> >> allowed to transmit...
> >>
> >> There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How
> >> can that be you might ask yourself?
> >>
> >> In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the
> >> transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can
> >> cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any
> >> number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
> >> specs...
> >>
> >> So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is
> >> spraying crap.
> >>
> >> On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
> >>> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply
> >>> out of line.
> >>>
> >>> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> >>> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He
> >>> uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But
> >>> then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as
> a
> >>> bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
> >>> somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> >>> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> >>> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> >>> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> >>> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> >>> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
> >>> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk
> about.
> >>>
> >>> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> >>> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> >>> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> >>> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> >>> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>> Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> >> Dave
> >> https://www.nk7z.net
> >>
> >> __
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to ard...@gmail.com
> > 

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

My response was regarding the post talking about operators, see quoted 
text quote in my response.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 6:03 PM, Gwen Patton wrote:

It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware. I talked to the
ham involved, and he's a nice enough bloke. I have no beef with him.

My antennas are, unfortunately, not designed with a useful null. I have an
end feed W3EDP style that works very well, and a Comet CHA-250B vertical.
Neither can reasonably be pointed to attenuate the signal.

Gwen, NG3P


On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 8:51 PM Dave  wrote:


I must respectfully disagree sir...

The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
   The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there
that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and
no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.

They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it.  Nicely, but
told non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you
have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...

Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
absolving the operator of all responsibility...  It is the operators job
to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.

If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be
allowed to transmit...

There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How
can that be you might ask yourself?

In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the
transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can
cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any
number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
specs...

So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is
spraying crap.

On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:

Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply
out of line.

The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He
uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But
then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as a
bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.

Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR


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https://www.nk7z.net

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Message 

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus, Giving Up & Group Therapy

[Julia Tuttle]

Sadly, humor is really easy to miss on the Internet, mostly due to Poe's
law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law).

1. Yes!
2. Yes!
3. Yes! My *only* nit is that it can't charge batteries without removing
them.

And I wanna second the Elmer bit. Helping each other get up and running,
kindly letting folks know when things are broken, and collaboratively
debugging problems is such a big part of what makes this hobby enjoyable.

Cheers,

Julie

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 1:24 PM Joseph Shuman via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> Humor on this Board is sometimes misunderstood.  Oh well…
>
> My 3 rules:
>
> 1.  If my $100.00 built from scratch and spare parts radio successfully
> communicates with your state of the art shack, my hobby has succeeded.
>
> 2.  Everybody has an opinion and all of them are correct, but mine is more
> correct for me than yours.
>
> 3.  There is very little on this board about the KX2 so it must be the
> closest to perfect radio out there Elecraft has designed.  That is why I
> own one.
>
> Is the true spirit of the “Elmer” part of your hobby?
>
> Keeping Watch-
> shu
> Joe Shuman, NZ8P
>
> Unless someone like you
> cares a whole awful lot,
> nothing is going to get better.
> It’s not. -Dr. Seuss
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to ju...@juliatuttle.net
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dean L]

After watching the video of the TinySA next to the HP8921, I can't see how
you could EVER trust the results of the toy.
I watched as OM in the video was scratching his head wondering where the
artifacts on the display of the TinySA came from.
Did I watch the wrong video? If I didn't see the image captured by the HP,
I would have comd to different conclusions.




I was not impressed:
Same author different video,

https://youtu.be/uwXUZSdxNq4

 As he changed the amplitude the harmonics generated by the TinySA changed
accordingly making the signal look "dirty"
Great tool if you have a $10k Service monitor sitting right next to it...

I understand it's $100 gizmo, but might confuse an unsuspecting operator.


I would not fault my kilobuck HF rig with this unit
YMMV

73
Dean K2WW

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:23 Dave  wrote:

> Interestingly enough I don't see that issue here with my K3, and tinySA.
>   I also don't use the built in antenna.  I use a tap and attenuator
> combination.
>
> I am also using a non clone device, as opposed to a clone device.  Some
> clones don't have the internal shielding.
>
> Here is a compare to a clone vs a non clone:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IzLAGgKg0
>
> Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and weaknesses
> of the tinySA.  A compare of the tinySA to an HP 8921A SA:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ
>
> For the price, and if one is careful, and aware of how to use the
> tinySA, you can gain a lot of knowledge for around 100 bucks.
>
> I am half tempted to buy one, and add a tap to my output coax, add
> power, bring it to a very low input level, and just keep the tinySA on
> all the time I operate, as an alarm that I might have an issue.
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 6/10/21 6:45 AM, N4ST - Jim wrote:
> > FWIW, be careful with your measurement process.
> > I got very depressed when I saw that my K3S had harmonics only 20db down
> on most bands when measured by Tiny SA and its telescoping antenna.
> > It was not being overloaded and in fact I measured similar results when
> feeding a dummy load.
> > Then I went outside the shack at a distance from the antennas and found
> that the harmonics were 40dB down or better.
> > Evidently when measuring inside the shack I was getting RF leakage
> directly through the front panel of the rig. (?).
> >
> > ___
> > 73,
> > Jim - N4ST
> >
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> On Behalf Of Dave
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 23:01
> > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus
> >
> > Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the tinySA
> > to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven.  We
> > are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.
> >
> > 73, and thanks,
> > Dave (NK7Z)
> > https://www.nk7z.net
> > ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> > ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> >
> > On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:
> >> I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.
> >>
> >> On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
> >>> Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the
> >>> Spectrum Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you
> >>> if it is him, or you.
> >>>
> >>> 73, and thanks,
> >>> Dave (NK7Z)
> >>> https://www.nk7z.net
> >>> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> >>> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> >>> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
> >> __
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> &g

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Bill Frantz]

On 6/10/21 at 1:29 PM, rmcg...@benlomand.net (Bob McGraw) wrote:

> The acronym for that is RTFM.

Which a tech writer I worked with insisted expanded to Read The Fine Manual.

73 Bill AE6JV

---
Bill Frantz| When all else fails:  | Periwinkle
(408)348-7900  | Voice and CW. | 150 Rivermead Rd #235
www.pwpconsult.com |   | Peterborough, NH 03458

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[David Gilbert]

That's simply a ridiculous argument.  No matter the rig, the ham has the 
responsibility not to put trash out on the airwaves.  And any ham who 
doesn't have a clue whether or not he is putting out trash, or ignores 
the feedback from other operators who tell him he is, or knowingly buys 
a rig without caring whether or not it does, doesn't belong on the air.


And if other hams who suffer from the clueless ones aren't allowed to 
protest, how does the problem ever go away?


Dave   AB7E



On 6/9/2021 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply 
out of line.


The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in 
good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.   
He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing 
problems.   But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the 
poor operator as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if 
the operator is somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests 
with crowded conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has 
ever whined about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of 
self-appointed experts living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it 
is a horrible epidemic.   Besides, if this was such big problem why is 
it such a new, current topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been 
noisy all the time.   I suspect it is topical only because they have 
nothing else to talk about.


Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of 
personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE 
OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a 
hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right. 
Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR




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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Gwen Patton]

It wasn't about the operator, it was about the hardware. I talked to the
ham involved, and he's a nice enough bloke. I have no beef with him.

My antennas are, unfortunately, not designed with a useful null. I have an
end feed W3EDP style that works very well, and a Comet CHA-250B vertical.
Neither can reasonably be pointed to attenuate the signal.

Gwen, NG3P


On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 8:51 PM Dave  wrote:

> I must respectfully disagree sir...
>
> The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec.
>   The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly.
> That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there
> that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels.
> They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and
> no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.
>
> They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it.  Nicely, but
> told non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you
> have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...
>
> Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over
> responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios,
> absolving the operator of all responsibility...  It is the operators job
> to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within
> tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.
>
> If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be
> allowed to transmit...
>
> There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How
> can that be you might ask yourself?
>
> In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the
> transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can
> cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any
> number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC
> specs...
>
> So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is
> spraying crap.
>
> On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
> > Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply
> > out of line.
> >
> > The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> > good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He
> > uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But
> > then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as a
> > bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
> > somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> > conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> > about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> > living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> > Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> > topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
> > suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
> >
> > Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> > personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> > OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> > hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> > Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
> >
> >
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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> > Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
> Dave
> https://www.nk7z.net
>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

Interestingly enough I don't see that issue here with my K3, and tinySA. 
 I also don't use the built in antenna.  I use a tap and attenuator 
combination.


I am also using a non clone device, as opposed to a clone device.  Some 
clones don't have the internal shielding.


Here is a compare to a clone vs a non clone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IzLAGgKg0

Here is an interesting video showing both the strengths, and weaknesses 
of the tinySA.  A compare of the tinySA to an HP 8921A SA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFtF2AYT0iQ

For the price, and if one is careful, and aware of how to use the 
tinySA, you can gain a lot of knowledge for around 100 bucks.


I am half tempted to buy one, and add a tap to my output coax, add 
power, bring it to a very low input level, and just keep the tinySA on 
all the time I operate, as an alarm that I might have an issue.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/10/21 6:45 AM, N4ST - Jim wrote:

FWIW, be careful with your measurement process.
I got very depressed when I saw that my K3S had harmonics only 20db down on 
most bands when measured by Tiny SA and its telescoping antenna.
It was not being overloaded and in fact I measured similar results when feeding 
a dummy load.
Then I went outside the shack at a distance from the antennas and found that 
the harmonics were 40dB down or better.
Evidently when measuring inside the shack I was getting RF leakage directly 
through the front panel of the rig. (?).

___
73,
Jim - N4ST

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 23:01
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the tinySA
to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven.  We
are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:

I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.

On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:

Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the
Spectrum Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you
if it is him, or you.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[john]

Contest stations operate on multiple bands from the same property  
without issue. Harmonics should only be heard on the harmonic  
frequency, not splatter across the entire band. You should not have a  
problem with a station over a mile away. What is your antenna and how  
it is fed?


John KK9A



Gwen Patton NG3P wrote:

I have one of those legal-limit hams about 2.5 km from my house. Seems a
nice enough guy, except that he uses 1.5kw for EVERYTHING. When he gets on
40m, I hear him on 2 other bands via harmonics. He splatters all over 40 so
there's no reason for me to even have my rig turned on when he starts
transmitting. I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end. It's frustrating to try to do a bit of CW and find that
I can hear him almost as well on 15m as on 40 and 20. I haven't checked
10m, but my guess is I'll hear him there, too.

I talked to him about it, and he basically blamed it on my radio's
insufficient rejection. It's a KX3. Is he right, or should he check his
radio for unstable harmonics?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
73,
Gwen, NG3P

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[N4ST - Jim]

FWIW, be careful with your measurement process.
I got very depressed when I saw that my K3S had harmonics only 20db down on 
most bands when measured by Tiny SA and its telescoping antenna.
It was not being overloaded and in fact I measured similar results when feeding 
a dummy load.
Then I went outside the shack at a distance from the antennas and found that 
the harmonics were 40dB down or better.
Evidently when measuring inside the shack I was getting RF leakage directly 
through the front panel of the rig. (?).

___ 
73,
Jim - N4ST

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 23:01
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the tinySA 
to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven.  We 
are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:
> I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.
> 
> On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the 
>> Spectrum Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you 
>> if it is him, or you.
>>
>> 73, and thanks,
>> Dave (NK7Z)
>> https://www.nk7z.net
>> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
>> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
>> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave B via Elecraft]

Should be easy to gauge...

How "clean" (or otherwise) is his signal on your RX, with no antenna 
connected, and all the RX attenuation switched in.


Perhaps also fit a well screened dummy load to the rig's antenna port(s)

Also disconnecting just about everything else except the power (and put 
some ferrite on that!)


All that should greatly reduce the level of his signal that your radio 
"see's" to manageable proportions.


Even turn the RF gain down too if needed.

If he's not splattering as much or at all, then it is likley your RX is 
being overloaded.


If it sounds just as bad, and splattering just as wide, then likely it's 
his end.


Regards to All.

Dave G8KBV



On 10/06/2021 05:01, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end.


--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source 
software:

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Bill Johnson]

One more off topic:  I was told my call, which I totally disliked back in 
1960... buddies pointed out, how great it was on cw.  How short sighted I was.

Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Julia Tuttle
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 11:41 PM
To: Buddy Brannan 
Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

Oh, I know, it was a deliberate choice -- my Elmer (from, jeez, 20 years
ago) K1AJ said he picked his for the sound, so I did too.

I do occasionally get out on CW with it though!

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 00:35 Buddy Brannan  wrote:

> Man, what a great cw call, totally wasted on FT8 :-)
>
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: bu...@brannan.name
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Julia Tuttle 
> wrote:
> >
> > It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my
> (noisy,
> > urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of 
> > the couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's 
> > (quiet, rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS  wrote:
> >
> >> I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've 
> >> worked?73,Gary K9GS
> >>  Original message From: Bill Johnson 
> >> 
> >> Date: 6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona <
> alor...@sbcglobal.net>,
> >> Julia Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector < 
> >> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here, 
> >> Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great
> day!BillFrom:
> >> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  
> >> on behalf of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, 
> >> June 8,
> 2021
> >> 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft 
> >> Reflector <
> >> elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna 
> >> second "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the 
> >> highest
> performing
> >> rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different
> aspect
> >> of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also 
> >> cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of 
> >> the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and 
> >> connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's 
> >> nest..but I'll be darned if it
> isn't
> >> just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is 
> >> a
> work
> >> of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more
> approachable/friendly
> >> for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) 
> >> is tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab 
> >> testing Get
> what
> >> makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do 
> >> the same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona < 
> >> alor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week 
> >> I
> had
> >> composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next
> morning, as
> >> I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me 
> >> say
> that
> >> I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood.
> Thousands of
> >> hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional 
> >> in
> some
> >> way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> 
> >> And
> yet,
> >> if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like
> Dayton
> >> expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you
> answer
> >> the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> 
> >> good?">> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that 
> >> way.>> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 
> >> 'best' which> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. 
> >> Against our
> personal>
> >> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but
> Brand A>
> >> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always 
> >> be
> guys
> >> who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest
> dynamic
> >> range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't 
> >> actually
> hear
> >> the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds 

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

Oh, I know, it was a deliberate choice -- my Elmer (from, jeez, 20 years
ago) K1AJ said he picked his for the sound, so I did too.

I do occasionally get out on CW with it though!

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 00:35 Buddy Brannan  wrote:

> Man, what a great cw call, totally wasted on FT8 :-)
>
>
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Email: bu...@brannan.name
> Mobile: (814) 431-0962
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Julia Tuttle 
> wrote:
> >
> > It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my
> (noisy,
> > urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the
> > couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet,
> > rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS  wrote:
> >
> >> I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've
> >> worked?73,Gary K9GS
> >>  Original message From: Bill Johnson 
> >> Date: 6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona <
> alor...@sbcglobal.net>,
> >> Julia Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> >> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here,
> >> Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great
> day!BillFrom:
> >> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on
> >> behalf of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8,
> 2021
> >> 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> >> elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second
> >> "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest
> performing
> >> rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different
> aspect
> >> of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool,
> >> and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood
> >> list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for
> >> digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest..but I'll be darned if it
> isn't
> >> just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a
> work
> >> of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more
> approachable/friendly
> >> for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is
> >> tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get
> what
> >> makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the
> >> same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <
> >> alor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I
> had
> >> composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next
> morning, as
> >> I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say
> that
> >> I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood.
> Thousands of
> >> hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in
> some
> >> way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And
> yet,
> >> if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like
> Dayton
> >> expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you
> answer
> >> the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">>
> >> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we
> >> constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which>
> >> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our
> personal>
> >> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but
> Brand A>
> >> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be
> guys
> >> who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest
> dynamic
> >> range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually
> hear
> >> the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual
> >> operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes
> made a
> >> comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have
> laughed
> >> at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking
> >> about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order
> dynamic
> >> range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this
> >> ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has
> >>

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Buddy Brannan]

Man, what a great cw call, totally wasted on FT8 :-) 


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: bu...@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



> On Jun 10, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my (noisy,
> urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the
> couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet,
> rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS  wrote:
> 
>> I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've
>> worked?73,Gary K9GS
>>  Original message From: Bill Johnson 
>> Date: 6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona ,
>> Julia Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
>> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here,
>> Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!BillFrom:
>> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on
>> behalf of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021
>> 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
>> elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second
>> "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing
>> rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect
>> of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool,
>> and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood
>> list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for
>> digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest..but I'll be darned if it isn't
>> just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work
>> of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more approachable/friendly
>> for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is
>> tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what
>> makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the
>> same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <
>> alor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had
>> composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as
>> I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that
>> I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of
>> hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some
>> way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet,
>> if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton
>> expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer
>> the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">>
>> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we
>> constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which>
>> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal>
>> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A>
>> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be guys
>> who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest dynamic
>> range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually hear
>> the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual
>> operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a
>> comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed
>> at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking
>> about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic
>> range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this
>> ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has
>> said that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this
>> post from 2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:>
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>>
>> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone>
>> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There>
>> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the
>> least.>> Above all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4>
>> __> Elecraft
>> mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.ne

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Gary K9GS]

Checked my log...we have not worked:)73,Gary K9GS
 Original message From: Julia Tuttle  
Date: 6/10/21  12:00 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Gary K9GS  Cc: 
Elecraft Reflector  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus 
It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my (noisy, 
urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the couple 
of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet, rural, big 
enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary 
K9GS  wrote:I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call? 
 I wonder if we've worked?73,Gary K9GS
 Original message From: Bill Johnson  Date: 
6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona , Julia 
Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here, 
Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!BillFrom: 
elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on behalf 
of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:36:00 
PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second "above 
all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, 
cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect of a radio, or 
even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it 
makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a 
panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's 
nest..but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is 
wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact 
sizemakes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here aroundit 
(as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet 
or lab testing Get what makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next 
ham can do the same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona 
 wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had 
composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I 
probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've 
always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams 
hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, 
that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet, if there 
were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton expounding 
about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer the questions, 
"Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">> You'd probably get on 
the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we constantly have gurus telling 
us that Brand A is the 'best' which> horrifies us if up until now we liked 
Brand B better. Against our personal> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I 
used to like Brand B, but Brand A> must be better because the gurus say so.">> 
Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that 
has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if 
they can't actually hear the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* 
during actual operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, 
Wes made a comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have 
laughed at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking 
about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic 
range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this 
ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said 
that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 
2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:> 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>>
 Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone> else 
complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There> are a 
million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.>> Above 
all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4> 
__> Elecraft 
mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: 
http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> This 
list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net> Please help support this email list: 
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> Message delivered to 
julia@juliatuttle.net__Elecraft
 mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: 
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Bill Johnson]

The only flaw, I see is if someone doesn't really understand the real life 
application or meaning of the numbers.   To me, quality, usability,  
simplicity,  update ability,  cost-effective use are more important.   Not the 
numbers.   Rob owns his preferences,  is not influenced by manufacturers and to 
me does a fantastic job of reviewing (I use different sort order for my picks 
at times) and because of Wayne, Eric and their phenomenal team... yes, you can 
say I drink Elecraft.
Bill
K9YEQ
Have a great day!
Bill


From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Al Lorona 
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 8:57:08 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: [Elecraft] Gurus

When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept on 
it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.

In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the power 
wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests. If he 
deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many millions of 
dollars for a manufacturer.

And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places like 
Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would you 
answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any good?"

You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.

But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which 
horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal 
experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A must 
be better because the gurus say so."

Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver that has 
the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never mind if they 
can't actually hear the differences.

It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most 
important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his tuning 
knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's darned 
important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range: almost 
any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking more and more 
meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that 90 dB or above is 
plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016 by one of the old 
guys on this reflector: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html

Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone else 
complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There are a 
million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.

Above all, have fun.

Al W6LX/4
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Bill Johnson]

I would add, the radio operator with a license is supposed to know the 
requirements and operate accordingly.  This includes staying with the passband 
of the FCC regulations.  Just because a radio is FCC accepted, doesn't mean the 
operator doesn’t have responsibility to stay within the regulations.  Thus if I 
note you are splattering because of too much mic gain, or whatever, doesn't 
excuse the person from adjusting the signal or correcting the situation, 
regardless of the manufacturer.  It is the HAM's station creating the issue 
that is legally needing to correct it.  Don't be offended, fix it.  I have had 
issues with my own Elecraft radio with a circuit failure... what did I do? I 
fixed it.  

Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 7:51 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

I must respectfully disagree sir...

The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec. 
  The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly. 
That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there that don't 
even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels. 
They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and no 
understanding of what limits they need to maintain.

They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it.  Nicely, but told 
non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you have an 
issue, than have the FCC tell you...

Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over responsibility for 
signal quality to the manufactures of radios, absolving the operator of all 
responsibility...  It is the operators job to make sure he/she is operating 
their radio correctly, and within tolerance, period, end of discussion, the 
operator is responsible.

If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be allowed 
to transmit...

There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How can that 
be you might ask yourself?

In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the 
transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can cause 
issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any number of 
settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC specs...

So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is 
spraying crap.

On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply 
> out of line.
> 
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in 
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. 
> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. 
> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor 
> operator as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the 
> operator is somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with 
> crowded conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever 
> whined about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed 
> experts living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current 
> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   
> I suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
> 
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of 
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE 
> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a 
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
> 
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> d...@nk7z.net
Dave
https://www.nk7z.net

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

It's KV1V, but probably not -- I've mostly been working FT8 from my (noisy,
urban, antenna-limited) home QTH, and I don't think you were one of the
couple of folks I managed to reach on CW from my girlfriend's (quiet,
rural, big enough to have a full-size 40m dipole) QTH.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 11:42 PM Gary K9GS  wrote:

> I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've
> worked?73,Gary K9GS
>  Original message From: Bill Johnson 
> Date: 6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona ,
> Julia Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here,
> Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!BillFrom:
> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on
> behalf of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021
> 9:36:00 PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second
> "above all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing
> rig you can, cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect
> of a radio, or even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool,
> and I'm happy it makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood
> list, it doesn't have a panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for
> digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest..but I'll be darned if it isn't
> just fun as shit to use. The UI is wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work
> of art, (surprisingly) the compact sizemakes it more approachable/friendly
> for it, and the community here aroundit (as heated as it can get) is
> tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what
> makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the
> same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona <
> alor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had
> composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as
> I probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that
> I've always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of
> hams hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some
> way, that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet,
> if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton
> expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer
> the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we
> constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which>
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal>
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A>
> must be better because the gurus say so.">> Yet, there will always be guys
> who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that has the 2nd highest dynamic
> range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if they can't actually hear
> the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual
> operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a
> comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed
> at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking
> about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic
> range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this
> ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has
> said that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this
> post from 2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:>
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone>
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There>
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the
> least.>> Above all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4>
> __> Elecraft
> mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:
> Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net>
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> Message delivered to
> julia@juliatuttle.net__Elecraft
> mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp:
&

Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Gary K9GS]

I agree Julie,Just curious, what is your call?  I wonder if we've 
worked?73,Gary K9GS
 Original message From: Bill Johnson  Date: 
6/9/21  11:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Al Lorona , Julia 
Tuttle  Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus Here, here, 
Julie!BillK9YEQHave a great day!BillFrom: 
elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on behalf 
of Julia Tuttle Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:36:00 
PMTo: Al Lorona Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] GurusI'm gonna second "above 
all, have fun"!If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, 
cool, andI hope it serves you well.But if a different aspect of a radio, or 
even one you can't name, bringsyou joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it 
makes you happy!My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a 
panadapter(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's 
nest..but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is 
wellthought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact 
sizemakes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here aroundit 
(as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.None of those show up in a spec sheet 
or lab testing Get what makes *you*happy, and share your experience so the next 
ham can do the same.Cheers,JulieOn Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona 
 wrote:> When this subject appeared last week I had 
composed a reply but then slept> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I 
probably do 80% of the time.>> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've 
always been amazed at the> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams 
hang on his latest tests.> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, 
that can mean many> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.>> And yet, if there 
were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places> like Dayton expounding 
about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would> you answer the questions, 
"Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any> good?">> You'd probably get on 
the air and use it, and decide that way.>> But we constantly have gurus telling 
us that Brand A is the 'best' which> horrifies us if up until now we liked 
Brand B better. Against our personal> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I 
used to like Brand B, but Brand A> must be better because the gurus say so.">> 
Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver> that 
has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never> mind if 
they can't actually hear the differences.>> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* 
during actual operating that's most> important. Not the numbers. For instance, 
Wes made a comment about his> tuning knob, and although some of you might have 
laughed at that... it's> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking 
about.>> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic 
range:> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this 
ranking> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said 
that> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 
2016> by one of the old guys on this reflector:> 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html>>>
 Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone> else 
complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There> are a 
million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.>> Above 
all, have fun.>> Al W6LX/4> 
__> Elecraft 
mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: 
http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>> This 
list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net> Please help support this email list: 
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> Message delivered to 
julia@juliatuttle.net__Elecraft
 mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: 
http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis list 
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Bill Johnson]

Here, here, Julie!
Bill
K9YEQ

Have a great day!
Bill


From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Julia Tuttle 
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:36:00 PM
To: Al Lorona 
Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

I'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!

If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, and
I hope it serves you well.

But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, brings
you joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!

My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter
(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest...

...but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is well
thought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact size
makes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here around
it (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.

None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*
happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona  wrote:

> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept
> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.
>
> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the
> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.
> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many
> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.
>
> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places
> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would
> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any
> good?"
>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.
>
> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A
> must be better because the gurus say so."
>
> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver
> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never
> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.
>
> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most
> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his
> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's
> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:
> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking
> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that
> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016
> by one of the old guys on this reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Jim Brown]

On 6/9/2021 8:00 PM, Dave wrote:
Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the tinySA 
to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven.  We 
are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.


A big part of it is knowing what you're doing, and keeping any 
non-linearities in the system below the level that matters. It also 
depends on the quality of the software running the system.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

Actually for this use they are...  Someone did a compare of the tinySA 
to an HP, and it was within a few dB as long as it was overdriven.  We 
are looking for splatter or harmonics, not doing a proof of performance.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 7:10 PM, Wes wrote:

I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.

On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the 
Spectrum Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you 
if it is him, or you.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Jim Brown]

On 6/9/2021 5:51 PM, Dave wrote:
There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How 
can that be you might ask yourself?


FCC Rules include numeric limits for harmonics. The Rules include a 
provision that a transmitted signal shall occupy no more bandwidth then 
needed for the method/mode of transmission. As a member of the Standards 
Committee of the Audio Engineering Society, we used clauses like this so 
that we didn't have to cover every possibility. The Rule essentially 
says, you've got to be as clean as a well designed, well operated 
product/station transmitting the same mode.


The summary I prepared of FCC Lab measurements of the occupied bandwidth 
of then-current CW transmitters clearly showed that some occupied FAR 
more bandwidth than others. At that time, the K3 was the cleanest, the 
FTDX5000 was the dirtiest. My process was simple -- ARRL sent me the 
data in electronic form, I plugged into a spreadsheet (actually, several 
pages of a spreadsheet, one for clicks, another for phase noise), and 
plotted noise amplitude vs frequency for all of them on the same graph.


That report is here. http://k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf

What that Rule says is that if one manufacturer's rigs occupies 500 Hz 
CW bandwidth 50 dB down from the key-down signal, others should meet 
that performance, or at least approach it within a reasonable time for 
engineering departments to catch up. The K3 was introduced in 2007, 
first sold, I think, in 2008. Someone will correct me if needed. Chief 
Engineer Wayne Burdick has made no secret of what he did to achieve 
that, and after Flex's 6700 measured badly at the lab for bandwidth, 
their engineers did something to correct it (maybe Wayne's waveshaping?) 
and reports were that it was much cleaner. AFAIK, ARRL has not 
re-measured it, and I've not been able to get an owner to bring one over 
here to measure.


As to Yaesu's SSB bandwidth -- I first learned about this hearing a 
couple of locals on 6M, several months apart. The first was splattering 
badly, calling CQ, no one answering, so I called to let him know, and 
suggested that maybe he was overdriving his amp. No, he responded, no 
amp. What rig? A current model Yaesu. A few months later, same story, 
except but the second guy and I knew each other. We went through every 
thing I could think of, first, of course, turning off his amp.


My method of studying this is simply to look at the signal on the P3 
waterfall. The waterfall trace of a clean signal is a vertical bar about 
2-7-2.8 kHz wide, with sides that are straight lines, while one that is 
splattering will see horizontal breakouts from  that bar on voice peaks.


For general operation, I adjust my spectrum display (the top graph) for 
a 32 dB difference between top and bottom of the screen (42 dB for high 
power contests), and I set averaging for the maximum value. The result 
in the spectrum will show how much bandwidth is being occupied, and I 
can freeze the screen, move the cursor along it, read frequency and note 
how many dB down the sidebands are away from the carrier. The signals 
I've measured have sidebands that are typically only 20 dB down from the 
strength of the transmitted audio for about 2.5 kHz on both sides of the 
signal. In other words, for LSB, 2.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier, 
and 8 kHz below the suppressed carrier. Sadly, because there are no 
numbers associated with it (in the Rules), it gets ignored both by 
manufacturers and ARRL, who gives passing (sometimes glowing) reviews to 
dirty products.


The same spectrum measurement can be made by switching to peak mode, 
accumulating peaks for a while, then killing the signal by switching off 
the antenna input. In peak mode, of course, the reference point for the 
vertical scale must be shifted.


With all of this, one must learn how to set up their P3 (or other 
spectrum/waterfall display) to separate the forest from the trees. With 
averaging turned on, random noise averages out, leaving signals and 
electronic noise. Set the bottom of this noise to the bottom the 
display. This will also make signals jump out of both the spectrum 
display and the waterfall.


The K3/P3, especially with the SVGA module, is a very nice test 
instrument! Most SDRs I've seen are significantly better, with greater 
dynamic range on screen, wider possible bandwidths, an frequency 
resolution that is as good or better.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Wes]

I'm not sure those toys are up to the task.

On 6/9/2021 5:30 PM, Dave wrote:
Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the Spectrum 
Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you if it is him, or you.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Buddy Brannan]

Not to mention the FCC rules (remember those? We had them on the test…) say 
that we should use the minimum amount of power necessary. 


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: bu...@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



> On Jun 9, 2021, at 8:46 PM, Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> Nobody was blaming the operator. Gwen was asking whose *radio* was to blame.
> 
> And "hey, your radio seems to be putting out some pretty strong
> interference on the harmonics, can you fix that?" isn't a personal attack.
> The answer might be "no, I have no idea how or why it is", though.
> 
> But, regardless of how "dirty" a radio is or isn't, it's reasonable to ask
> someone to turn the power down when they don't need it -- it can overload
> receivers, it can amplify any noise the radio is putting out, and it takes
> up that spectrum in a wider geographic area than is needed.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 20:14 Richards  wrote:
> 
>> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply
>> out of line.
>> 
>> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
>> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
>> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
>> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator
>> as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
>> somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
>> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
>> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
>> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
>> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
>> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
>> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>> 
>> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
>> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
>> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
>> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
>> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

I must respectfully disagree sir...

The ordinary ham should be able to tell when his/her rig is out of spec. 
 The ordinary ham should be able to operate his/her rig correctly. 
That is just no longer the case.  There are a lot of folks out there 
that don't even know how a repeater works at the most basic of levels. 
They are operating HF rigs with no understanding of how they work, and 
no understanding of what limits they need to maintain.


They create a mess on the air, and should be told about it.  Nicely, but 
told non the less.  It is far better to have a fellow ham tell you you 
have an issue, than have the FCC tell you...


Speaking of the FCC, I don't remember the FCC turning over 
responsibility for signal quality to the manufactures of radios, 
absolving the operator of all responsibility...  It is the operators job 
to make sure he/she is operating their radio correctly, and within 
tolerance, period, end of discussion, the operator is responsible.


If he/she can not tell there is a problem, than that ham should not be 
allowed to transmit...


There are dirty transmitters all over, and they meet FCC specs...  How 
can that be you might ask yourself?


In a lot of cases, the operator is not knowledgeable in how to drive the 
transmitter properly, or that low voltages feeding the transmitter can 
cause issues, or that triggering ALC in FT8 causes issues, there are any 
number of settings the Amateur can screw up, and the rig meets FCC 
specs...


So no, it is not "out of line" to let someone know their transmitter is 
spraying crap.


On 6/9/21 5:02 PM, Richards wrote:
Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply 
out of line.


The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in 
good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards. He 
uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems. But 
then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator as a 
bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is 
somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded 
conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined 
about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts 
living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic. 
Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current 
topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I 
suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.


Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of 
personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE 
OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a 
hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right. 
Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR



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Dave
https://www.nk7z.net

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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

Nobody was blaming the operator. Gwen was asking whose *radio* was to blame.

And "hey, your radio seems to be putting out some pretty strong
interference on the harmonics, can you fix that?" isn't a personal attack.
The answer might be "no, I have no idea how or why it is", though.

But, regardless of how "dirty" a radio is or isn't, it's reasonable to ask
someone to turn the power down when they don't need it -- it can overload
receivers, it can amplify any noise the radio is putting out, and it takes
up that spectrum in a wider geographic area than is needed.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021, 20:14 Richards  wrote:

> Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply
> out of line.
>
> The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in
> good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.
> He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.
> But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator
> as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is
> somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded
> conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined
> about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts
> living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.
> Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current
> topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I
> suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.
>
> Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of
> personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE
> OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a
> hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right.
> Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Dave]

Buy an attenuator, and a tinySA, or get an SDRPlay, and run the Spectrum 
Analyzer software.  Take a few SA shots, that will tell you if it is 
him, or you.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 6/9/21 8:46 AM, Gwen Patton wrote:

I have one of those legal-limit hams about 2.5 km from my house. Seems a
nice enough guy, except that he uses 1.5kw for EVERYTHING. When he gets on
40m, I hear him on 2 other bands via harmonics. He splatters all over 40 so
there's no reason for me to even have my rig turned on when he starts
transmitting. I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end. It's frustrating to try to do a bit of CW and find that
I can hear him almost as well on 15m as on 40 and 20. I haven't checked
10m, but my guess is I'll hear him there, too.

I talked to him about it, and he basically blamed it on my radio's
insufficient rejection. It's a KX3. Is he right, or should he check his
radio for unstable harmonics?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
73,
Gwen, NG3P


On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:24 AM Jim Brown  wrote:


Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase
noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his
choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like
that.

73, Jim K9YC

On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:

I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
something like that).

I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).

I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
continue the race for dynamic range.


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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Richards]

Anyone condemning other hams for using "dirty transmitters"  is simply 
out of line.


The ordinary ham is NOT an Electrical Engineer and he buys his rig in 
good faith, believing it passed FCC and other engineering standards.   
He uses it in good faith, assuming it is OK and not causing problems.   
But then, a few self-appointed Frequency Cops condemn the poor operator 
as a bad citizen for using a "dirty transmitter"  as if the operator is 
somehow to blame.   I have worked a lot of contests with crowded 
conditions in a large metropolitan area, and nobody has ever whined 
about any of this, notwithstanding a couple of self-appointed experts 
living in the mountains of CA and CO claim it is a horrible epidemic.   
Besides, if this was such big problem why is it such a new, current 
topic? Supposedly, all those old rigs have been noisy all the time.   I 
suspect it is topical only because they have nothing else to talk about.


Well, even if it is a problem, there is no place for this sort of 
personal attack in ham radio, AND IT IS SIMPLY WRONG TO BLAME THE 
OPERATOR for how his rig works.   For most ops, ham radio is just a 
hobby and they are entitled to expect their radios will work right. 
Blaming the operator is simply out of line.   K8JHR



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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Gwen Patton]

I have one of those legal-limit hams about 2.5 km from my house. Seems a
nice enough guy, except that he uses 1.5kw for EVERYTHING. When he gets on
40m, I hear him on 2 other bands via harmonics. He splatters all over 40 so
there's no reason for me to even have my rig turned on when he starts
transmitting. I can't tell if it's a bad radio on his end or just front end
overload on my end. It's frustrating to try to do a bit of CW and find that
I can hear him almost as well on 15m as on 40 and 20. I haven't checked
10m, but my guess is I'll hear him there, too.

I talked to him about it, and he basically blamed it on my radio's
insufficient rejection. It's a KX3. Is he right, or should he check his
radio for unstable harmonics?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
73,
Gwen, NG3P


On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:24 AM Jim Brown  wrote:

> Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase
> noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his
> choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like
> that.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
> > I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big
> > beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal
> > renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects
> > extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or
> > something like that).
> >
> > I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the
> > apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is
> > not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).
> >
> > I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more
> > attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to
> > continue the race for dynamic range.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Jim Brown]

Exactly right, Vic. A dirty rig, whether generating clicks or phase 
noise, is putting his trash on YOUR frequency. You are screwed by his 
choice of a lousy radio. And he doesn't care. I've got a neighbor like 
that.


73, Jim K9YC

On 6/9/2021 12:45 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big 
beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal 
renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects 
extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or 
something like that).


I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the 
apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is 
not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).


I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more 
attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to 
continue the race for dynamic range.


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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

I live in a place where there is a ham with a legal limit rig and a big 
beam less than 1 km. away. Antennas are line of sight. His signal 
renders about 10-20 kHz of the (CW) band unusable, with lesser effects 
extending out farther. He does not have clicks; it is phase noise (or 
something like that).


I have experimented with attenuators and they have NO effect on the 
apparent width of his signal. Therefore I conclude that the problem is 
not in my receiver (K3, not S, upgraded synthesizers).


I don't know what kind of transceiver he is using, but I think more 
attention needs to be paid to transmitter cleanliness, rather than to 
continue the race for dynamic range.


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
CWops #5
Formerly K2VCO
https://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 09/06/2021 4:57, Al Lorona wrote:




Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic
range: almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make
this ranking more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood
himself has said that 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand
why, see this post from 2016 by one of the old guys on this
reflector:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html

 Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear
someone else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't
panic. There are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve
you in the least.

Above all, have fun.

Al W6LX/4 


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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

I'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!

If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, and
I hope it serves you well.

But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, brings
you joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!

My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter
(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest...

...but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is well
thought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact size
makes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here around
it (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.

None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*
happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona  wrote:

> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept
> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.
>
> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the
> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.
> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many
> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.
>
> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places
> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would
> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any
> good?"
>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.
>
> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A
> must be better because the gurus say so."
>
> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver
> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never
> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.
>
> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most
> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his
> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's
> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:
> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking
> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that
> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016
> by one of the old guys on this reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to ju...@juliatuttle.net
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