Re: [PSES] ISO 7637-3 (automotive)

[DEREK WALTON]

I Concur, I’ve only been asked to do this test by a manufacturer.

Sincerely,

Derek.

> On Feb 2, 2021, at 10:14 AM, David Schaefer 
> <12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> HI James,
>  
> In my experience ISO 7637-3 is only required by manufacturer specifications – 
> Volvo, Polaris, John Deere, Nissan, etc. I do not know of any mandatory 
> standards that use the -3.
>  
> Thanks,
>   
> 
> 
>  
> 
> David Schaefer​
> Operations Manager
> Element Materials Technology
> 9349 W Broadway Ave
> Brooklyn Park
> , 
> MN
> 55445
> , 
> United States
> O +1 612 638 5136  
> ext. 4003
> david.schae...@element.com 
> www.element.com 
>  
> 
>  
>     
>  
> 
> From: James Pawson (U3C) [mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 
> ] 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:55 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] ISO 7637-3 (automotive)
>  
> CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. 
> DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and 
> know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any 
> doubt about this email.
> 
> Hello Robert,
>  
> Thank you for the reply.
>  
> Are these internal company standards (I’m thinking for procurement and 
> quality purposes) that you are referring to?
>  
> Are you aware of any legal / mandatory standards that call it up?
>  
> All the best
> James
>  
>  
>  
> From: Robert Kado  > 
> Sent: 02 February 2021 14:48
> To: James Pawson (U3C)  >
> Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] ISO 7637-3 (automotive)
>  
> We created the document specific to the transportation industry so 
> predominantly automotive but I am also aware of agriculture, truck & bus, and 
> even avionics/aerospace referencing it or utilizing it at times.
>  
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> Robert Kado
> EMC Engineering & Laboratories
> Sr Manager & Sr Technical Fellow
>  
> 800 E. Chrysler Drive
> CIMS 481-47-20
> Auburn Hills, MI, USA
> Telephone: (248) 576 - 6915
> Mobile: (248) 467 - 0639
> robert.k...@stellantis.com 
>  
>  
>  
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 9:45 AM James Pawson (U3C) 
> mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk>> wrote:
> Hello experts,
>  
> Does anyone know what standards call up or mandate the use of the automotive 
> standard ISO 7637-3 (coupling of noise onto non-supply lines)?
>  
> There is nothing in R10.06 or ISO 7637-2 that I can see.
>  
> Thanks in advance
> James
>  
>  
>  
>  
> James Pawson
> Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
> www.unit3compliance.co.uk 
>  // +44(0)7811 
> 139957
> 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
> Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
>  
> -
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[PSES] e-mark

[DEREK WALTON]

Good morning folks,

We are positioning our EMC lab to perform e-mark testing. Reading the directive 
I’m a little confused if there is other action required besides being assessed 
to ISO 17025 by an organization such as NVLAP?

Our scope will have all the test methods for the particular equipment we plan 
to certify.

I would appreciate any guidance on the legal side of e-mark testing needed by a 
test lab outside of Europe.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
SSCLabs
Reno, NV, USA
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Re: [PSES] [PSES] Thoughts on what may be the emission source

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your replies so far, it’s been really helpful.  I had to return the 
design for a short while, when I get it back I now have a roadmap of things to 
do…

Again, thanks everyone!


Derek.

> On Nov 28, 2020, at 5:41 AM, James Pawson (U3C)  
> wrote:
> 
> Derek,
> 
> I agree with Amund. Narrowband 240MHz (high speed mode clock rate) and 480MHz 
> (second harmonics from low differential pair matching) are classic USB 
> emissions. There may be a little something at 960MHz of 1.44GHz as well.
> 
> I've had good results from RasPi boards in the past with USB so my immediate 
> line of inquiry would be any other USB devices in the test setup, followed by 
> the cables.
> 
> Happy hunting!
> James
> 
> 
> James Pawson
> The EMC Problem Solver
> 
> Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
> EMC Testing / Design for EMC / Problem Solving / Pre Compliance / Consultancy 
> / Environmental & Vibration
> 
> www.unit3compliance.co.uk // 07811 139957
> 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
> Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Amund Westin  
> Sent: 28 November 2020 09:43
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] SV: [PSES] Thoughts on what may be the emission source
> 
> Derek,
> 
> 240/480MHz sound like USB 2.0 High speed  It's 4 USB-ports on the RPi ?
> 
> Br
> Amund
> 
> 
> -Opprinnelig melding-
> Fra: DEREK WALTON
> Sendt: 28. november 2020 00:49
> Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Emne: [PSES] Thoughts on what may be the emission source
> 
> Hi Folks, 
> 
> I’m working on a product containing a Raspberry PI as the main controller. I 
> see two very strong emissions at about 240 MHz and 480 MHz. They are 
> obviously related.
> 
> I’ve discounted video, but not having any details on the board it’s making it 
> hard to pin down the source. Anybody make some suggestions as to what the 
> source may be?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Derek.
> -
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---

[PSES] Thoughts on what may be the emission source

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi Folks, 

I’m working on a product containing a Raspberry PI as the main controller. I 
see two very strong emissions at about 240 MHz and 480 MHz. They are obviously 
related.

I’ve discounted video, but not having any details on the board it’s making it 
hard to pin down the source. Anybody make some suggestions as to what the 
source may be?

Thanks,

Derek.
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Re: [PSES] Anybody particularly adept at TESEQ Compliance5 Software?

[Derek Walton]

Well, I used to install it, what’s up?

Derek.

Sent from my iPad Pro

On May 5, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Mike Violette, P.E.  wrote:


Michael Violette, P.E.
Director
American Certification Body
mi...@wll.com
+1 240-401-1388



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[PSES] Induction motor EMC

[DEREK WALTON]

HI folks,

I’ve been asked if there are any EMC requirements on induction motors. 
Personally I’ve had mixed experience with these, orientation has proved 
important to not making any emissions.

My gut feel is that they should be inherently quiet and also immune, but is 
there anything formal in the directive or product standards that excludes them?

Thanks,

Derek.
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[PSES] Apple charger load

[DEREK WALTON]

HI folks,

I have been asked to test an Apple iPad charger for RE102.

I would rather not have a real iPad, but would like to have a dummy load. Can 
anyone tell me if there is something like that already out there please.

Just adding resistors isn’t adequate I think because some smart communications 
take place.

Thanks,

Derek.
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[PSES] Personal field meter

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi folks,

I’m looking to add a meter in our control room that would alert us if field 
from the test cell leaks into our control room. I have seen a few haz meters 
out there but wonders if anyone can share good/bad stories of ones they have 
used please.

Offline replies are cool if you don’t want to reply to the group.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
SSCLabs.com

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Re: [PSES] ESD - Floating metal knob, otherwise grounded equipment

[DEREK WALTON]

Oh Boy Elliott,

you’ll get a few answers here, lol.

My 10 cents is that when you are not discharging each time you are adding more 
and more charge to the isolated control, that eventually will snap over At that 
point you are discharging quite a significantly higher level of chart than an 
individual event. 

I would not call that a realistic “ compliance” test.

OTOH, if it’s possible that may happen in the real world with an operator 
continually adding charge as they use your EUT, you may want to find a way of 
adding some way to bleed charge over a few seconds.

Interesting problem, lets see what others say,

Sincerely,

Derek
LFResearch and SSCLabs.com


> On Mar 12, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Elliott Martinson 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Everybody,
>  
> We’re having some disagreements regarding the 61000-4-2 standard. In the 
> section “ungrounded equipment”, it states that ungrounded equipment or 
> part(s) of equipment shall have the charge removed in between ESD pulses in 
> order to not over-test.
> We have a product that only fails pre-compliance when repeated ESD pulses are 
> applied to a floating metal knob without removing the charge in between 
> (eventually there is a second discharge between the knob and the enclosure). 
> The product as a whole is “grounded equipment”.
> Since the issue only happens when the charge isn’t removed in between pulses, 
> is this a pass or a fail?
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Elliott Martinson
> Controls Engineer
> Sub-Zero/Wolf
> elliott.martin...@subzero.com -
> 
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Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi Folks,

just a quick comment on the LED lights. ANSI has been working hard ( there are 
some tricky issues ) to issue C63.29 which will help eliminate a lot of LED 
lighting issues. If anyone is curious, I can direct them to the appropriate 
committee contact point to learn whats going on.

Cheers,

Derek.

> On Oct 31, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Larry K. Stillings 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, technically the label for FM and Land mobile receivers is different, 
> per 15.19 (a) (1) from all other devices and does not contain the two parts.
>  
> This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to 
> the condition that this device does not cause harmful interference.
>  
> The CFL light bulb issue is well known, but not much has been done that I 
> have observed, other than the selling of LED bulbs to replace them 
>  
> Larry K. Stillings
> Compliance Worldwide, Inc. 
> Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! 
> FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product 
> Safety 
> 357 Main Street
> Sandown, NH 03873
> (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445
> www.complianceworldwide.com 
> 
> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you 
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> conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the 
> official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor 
> endorsed by it.
>  
> From: Richard Nute 
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:24 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements
>  
>  
> “This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules.  Operation is subject to 
> the following two conditions:  (1) This device may not cause harmful 
> interference, and  (2) this device must accept any interference received, 
> including interference that may cause undesired operation”
>  
> Hmm.  So, if the device causes harmful interference, operation is prohibited 
> (1). 
>  
> And, if the device accepts interference that causes undesired operation, 
> operation is prohibited (2).
>  
> A CFL causes undesirable interference with my radio.  So, operation of both 
> the CFL and radio is prohibited. 
>  
> Is my interpretation correct?
>  
> Best regards,
> Rich
>  
>  
>  
> -
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Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi All,

Well, this seems like here we go again. Not you Doug, just to be clear.

I have long since had a problem with the standards world where they focus on a 
“test” rather than addressing the REAL PROBLEM.

I’ll give $100 right now to the three people who can shuffle the carpet, 
discharge into an ESD Target and get the 61000-4-2 wave-shape. Seriously,, I’m 
waiting for the first lawsuit against someone that says a products good because 
it passes the “std test”. 

To attempt to drive a standard to anally specify a naturally occurring random 
event is ludicrous. At best what should be done is a range of parameters 
specified and the simulator lie within them.

Why? Well who benefits when the standard is made more specific TO THE WRONG 
QUANTITY!!!???  Certainly not the consumer, who is the main reason we are doing 
this.

To quote a good friend Harry Hodes, we are trying once more to increase the 
accuracy of measuring Jelly with a micronometer.

If the standard needs improving, it would be a change to reflect more what 
happens in the real world not further restrict a clinical lab test.

Back to my coffee,

Derek.



> On Oct 15, 2019, at 12:33 PM, doug emcesd.com  wrote:
> 
> A few years ago I evaluated eight ESD simulators over a year’s time at Bob 
> Vermillon’s lab at the NASA Ames campus, https://esdrmv.com 
> . All had current cal stickers and two of the eight 
> produced very non-compliant waveforms! This is a good argument that 
> calibration one a year does not guarantee much and that validation need to be 
> performed every day.
> 
> There are several articles on ESD simulators on my website around the same 
> time including this one: https://emcesd.com/tt2010/tt120210.htm 
> 
> 
> 25% failure rate is not good and adds to the problem of repeatable testing.
> 
> I have spent nearly 30 years now investigating ESD and ESD simulators! My 
> first foray into high power/high voltage was 58 years ago with a pair of 811a 
> vacuum tubes generating 600 watts of power at 300 kHz which I fed to a 
> resonant air core transformer to make a high powered Tesla coil (at age 14). 
> I figure I played in a field of more than 10,000 Volts/meter for hours on 
> end, occasionally letting the 811a tubes cool down before they melted. 
> Brought the FCC to my house, a story for another time. Pieces of metal in the 
> vicinity got hot from induction heating as well as an incandescent bulb held 
> by the base would light up, not to mention fluorescent tubes nearby, with or 
> without wires attached.
> 
> I have been fascinated by high voltage ever since.
> 
> Doug
> Sent from my iPhone
> IPhone: 408-858-4528
> Office: 702-570-6108
> Email: d...@dsmith.org 
> Website: http://dsmith.org 
> From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 9:27:08 AM
> To: doug emcesd.com   >; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
>   >
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
> of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
>  
> I take your point, but I wasn't proposing a full replication of the earlier 
> work. A confirmatory paper or two, citing the earlier work and using modern 
> measuring instruments, and indeed looking at the environment factor, would 
> support the case for improving the standard.
> 
> By 'environment factor' I refer to the recent report that different results 
> with the same equipment were obtained in an absorptive environment and in a 
> screened room.
> 
> Best wishes
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk 
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
> On 2019-10-15 17:18, doug emcesd.com  wrote:
>> That is true, but only after the author was familiar with all previous work. 
>> The work was comprehensive and it is hard to imagine a different result 
>> happening. Anyone who wants to restudy the subject will need a BIG budget, 
>> just for all the round robin testing that was done. Bell Labs contributed 
>> more than one million $ to the effort by my calculation, not to mention many 
>> other companies. I bet the total effort was ten million $!
>> 
>> Doug 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> IPhone: 408-858-4528
>> Office: 702-570-6108
>> Email: d...@dsmith.org 
>> Website: http://dsmith.org 
>> From: John Woodgate  
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 00:52
>> To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing 
>> Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
>>  
>> No doubt it was very good work, but its OLD. One or two new papers would be 
>> a good thing.
>> 
>> Best wishesJohn Woodgate 

[PSES] JDQ 202 Specification.

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi All,

I’m Running an ISO 7637-2 Pulse 2b test, but in accordance with Section 21 of 
JDQ202. 

There are a few differences, and one that’s perplexing me is the term Pulse 
cycle time in the JDQ document.

Pulse 2b is rather a long pulse lasting about 2 1/2 seconds. It is simulating 
some of the after effects of turning off the ignition key. You would think that 
this is not a repetitive test, but, the term pulse cycle time could imply that 
this pulse should be repeated. My background would ave preferred the clearer 
term Pulse repetition rate, Pulse spacing or Pulse interval.

The standard requires 10 pulses, same as the ISO version, but then says a Pulse 
cycle time of 5 seconds: the ISO version makes no reference to this.

It doesn’t seem appropriate to apply the test 10 times with only 5 seconds 
between initiations. I can see some EUT’s not even powering up in that time. It 
would make sense if the term meant allow a minimum of 5 seconds to ensure a 
complete cycle. Repetition is then at the discretion of the tester, so 
different DUT behavior could be accomodated.

Any insight as to what JDQ 202 means by the Pulse Cycle Time term would be 
appreciated.

Thanks,

Derek.
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Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

[DEREK WALTON]

 haven’t been shot, yet. What I 
have learned is that there are many very smart people working in labs and they 
have been kind enough on occasion to point out I’ve been wrong without 
recrimination: OK, with one exception, who still argues about EN61000-4-6 to 
this day. What I have also experienced is quite a few so called experts that 
accompany products, or witness tests, that believe they have knowledge, but 
have never stepped outside their limited domain. The “general" trait is to talk 
in Generalisms and recall stories from way back: no need to elaborate on that.

Now, I’m not saying that labs are perfect. What I am saying is that some of the 
opinions expressed here are describing unique situations ( a lot are from “Long 
ago” and when I hear that, I hear “Once upon a time” ), and do not hold for the 
current laboratory community: It is a fallacy to think that the statements 
apply to most modern labs. For instance, I have a line item charge that is 
specifically for “being audited”  by a client or 3rd party: it’s double my 
normal billing rate because of the annoyance factor: by the same token, if 
something is uncovered that improves my lab, then I wave all charges. Another 
for instance, while assessing an OEM, when I asked how to you assure no bias, 
the told me this: XYZ company has deep pockets, if it could be proven that they 
shipped non-compliant product the regulators would have a field day with fines 
and recalls. That particular company performed hundreds of hours of just 
emissions testing on each variant of its product including testing cold and hot 
products. OEMs are among the most diligent test bodies. 

Anyways, work calls, but I stress once again. I didn’t write all this to 
disagree with folks, or to cause division. I took the time to challenge the 
notion that the EMC test industry is rife with issues: IT IS NOT!

Have a great day Y’all.

Derek.


> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:50 AM, Manny Barron  wrote:
> 
> Hi Derek,
>  
> I read Ken Wyatt's e-mail plus Ghery Pettit's Blog link and find them very 
> informative with insightful tidbits of knowledge that could be helpful to the 
> reader who uses 3rd party EMC test labs or even in-house original equipment 
> manufacturer (OEM) test labs.
>  
> Years ago when I worked for a major OEM, an engineering director requested 
> that I audit some of the EMC test labs being used by 3rd party hardware firms 
> from which we procured hardware that was integrated into a product system 
> that the OEM marketed for sale.  The audits were initiated due to the quality 
> of some of the test reports we reviewed.  The hardware supplier remained on 
> the list of approved hardware suppliers if the 3rd party lab they used agreed 
> to a requested audit and passed (or deleted from the list if they declined or 
> failed).  So Ghery's blog is very useful for the things to be aware of when 
> choosing a test lab or if you're a major OEM with clout, even requesting a 
> lab audit.
>  
> And the statements in Ken's e-mail are very important points to be aware of 
> for anyone using any EMC test lab or looking into choosing an EMC test lab.  
> Matter of fact, I personally have witnessed all of the deficiencies Ken 
> points out in his e-mail.  I like what he wrote and agree with it because I 
> have seen it in the various labs I've worked in or have visited over the 
> years.  And if I had any authority or influence over the lab quality system 
> of these labs, the deficiencies I saw were eventually resolved.  I believe 
> most labs do a pretty good job, but statistically there will always be 
> deficiencies until an auditor or a knowledgeable person speaks up.
>  
> You'll probably put me on the same side as Ken and Ghery.
> But that's okay, I'll be glad to be there.
>  
> Manny Barron
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: DEREK WALTON [mailto:00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
> <mailto:00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:47 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment
>  
> Whoah Ed,
>  
> you just landed along side Ken and Ghery!
>  
> I have to strongly oppose some of your views on what the test lab should or 
> shouldn’t Know/do. Wow, have you any idea of the variety of equipment that 
> roles in the lab door, and the complexity of it? NO, it is NOT the labs job 
> to understand the EUT, other than how to interpret the standard so it can be 
> tested. It is totally unreasonable to expect a test person to muse the 
> subtleties of sub micron silicon one day then the ramifications of 10,000 psi 
> hydraulic pumps the next. I doubt few could listening in.
>  
> Having had the luxury of “visiting" well over 350

Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

[DEREK WALTON]

ld be warned that home-brew support equipment may cause EMI issues all on 
> their own. A good test lab will make some suggestions about best practices, 
> but alert the customer that it may be necessary to ameliorate support 
> equipment problems before EUT testing can begin, and this may entail 
> additional time and materials needed to make the support equipment quiet or 
> immune enough to allow testing. Further, a good test lab should always expect 
> some set-up problems, and be ready to surmount these with a plentiful junkbox 
> of rolls of aluminum foil, conductive tape, bond straps, shielded boxes, 
> knitted wire mesh, capacitors, inductors, ferrite beads, isolation 
> transformers, sheet metal and a decent assortment of common hand tools. In 
> short, if your customer says his gadget needs an external water chiller, the 
> test lab should have already thought about ground loops, how to get water in 
> and out of the chamber, and have considered what problems a water chiller 
> might induce in the lab’s electrical environment. The test lab’s customer 
> should not feel that the test lab was unprepared to receive him or that the 
> test lab was anything less than expert in integrating the test specimen and 
> support equipment into the test chamber.
>  
> It would appear that the selected test lab was just not ready for prime time.
>  
>  
> Ed Price
> WB6WSN
> Chula Vista, CA USA
>  
> From: DEREK WALTON [mailto:00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
> <mailto:00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 12:08 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment
>  
> Interesting discussion, not surprising I have a little empathy, and a whole 
> slew of disagreement with both Ken and Ghery ( both Chaps I have a lot of 
> respect for ) on this one.
>  
> How best to respond is the question?
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Derek Walton.
> 
> 
> On Apr 17, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Bill Stumpf  <mailto:bstu...@dlsemc.com>> wrote:
>  
> Absolutely agree with Ken.
>  
> Bill Stumpf
> Lab/Technical Manager
> D.L.S. Elecronic Systems, Inc.
>  
>  
>  
> From: Kenneth Wyatt [mailto:emc.g...@emc-seminars.com 
> <mailto:emc.g...@emc-seminars.com>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 12:21 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment
>  
> Boy, I have heard all sorts of horror stories from clients with knowledgeable 
> EMC backgrounds who have witnessed sloppy, or just plain wrong, procedures 
> used in commercial EMC test labs. In a lot of cases, the technicians 
> operating these tests have limited background in EM theory and poor knowledge 
> of the actual tests they are running and standards the tests are based on.
>  
> Just because a test lab is assessed per IEC 17025, doesn’t mean much unless 
> they show evidence the documented procedures are actually being followed.
>  
> Many test labs fail to perform frequent verification tests to confirm the 
> measurement system is accurate and is repeatable from one day to the next. 
> When I worked for HP, we did a daily verification test using an RF generator 
> connected to the antenna cable to ensure the back-end system measured the 
> same as the day before. We also ran comb generator tests frequently.
>  
> I always suggest to my clients to make their preferred test lab measure a 
> client-owned comb generator prior to any testing in order to ensure the 
> chamber continues to be reasonably consistent before real measurements are 
> taken.
>  
> It’s also very important to understand the test standards and EUT 
> configurations well enough to ensure the test technician is setting up things 
> correctly. I know of one case where the EUT cabling was configured wrong and 
> their client repeatedly had emissions failures over weeks of retesting until 
> the correct configuration was pointed out in the standard.
>  
> Taking photos of the test setup is very important for day to day test 
> consistency. A difference in one cable position can completely throw off 
> repeatability and thus, mislead any troubleshooting efforts.
>  
> What about ESD simulators? When was it verified last? Does the test lab even 
> have the means to verify the correct tip voltage and pulse characteristics?
>  
> Is all the measurement equipment calibrated and cal tags current?
>  
> I could go on…
>  
> My colleague, Ghery Pettit wrote a recent blog on the subject for 
> Interference Technology: 
> https://interferencetechnology.com/emc-la

Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

[DEREK WALTON]

Interesting discussion, not surprising I have a little empathy, and a whole 
slew of disagreement with both Ken and Ghery ( both Chaps I have a lot of 
respect for ) on this one.

How best to respond is the question?

Cheers,

Derek Walton.

> On Apr 17, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Bill Stumpf  wrote:
> 
> Absolutely agree with Ken.
>  
> Bill Stumpf
> Lab/Technical Manager
> D.L.S. Elecronic Systems, Inc.
>  
>  
>  
> From: Kenneth Wyatt [mailto:emc.g...@emc-seminars.com 
> <mailto:emc.g...@emc-seminars.com>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 12:21 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment
>  
> Boy, I have heard all sorts of horror stories from clients with knowledgeable 
> EMC backgrounds who have witnessed sloppy, or just plain wrong, procedures 
> used in commercial EMC test labs. In a lot of cases, the technicians 
> operating these tests have limited background in EM theory and poor knowledge 
> of the actual tests they are running and standards the tests are based on.
>  
> Just because a test lab is assessed per IEC 17025, doesn’t mean much unless 
> they show evidence the documented procedures are actually being followed.
>  
> Many test labs fail to perform frequent verification tests to confirm the 
> measurement system is accurate and is repeatable from one day to the next. 
> When I worked for HP, we did a daily verification test using an RF generator 
> connected to the antenna cable to ensure the back-end system measured the 
> same as the day before. We also ran comb generator tests frequently.
>  
> I always suggest to my clients to make their preferred test lab measure a 
> client-owned comb generator prior to any testing in order to ensure the 
> chamber continues to be reasonably consistent before real measurements are 
> taken.
>  
> It’s also very important to understand the test standards and EUT 
> configurations well enough to ensure the test technician is setting up things 
> correctly. I know of one case where the EUT cabling was configured wrong and 
> their client repeatedly had emissions failures over weeks of retesting until 
> the correct configuration was pointed out in the standard.
>  
> Taking photos of the test setup is very important for day to day test 
> consistency. A difference in one cable position can completely throw off 
> repeatability and thus, mislead any troubleshooting efforts.
>  
> What about ESD simulators? When was it verified last? Does the test lab even 
> have the means to verify the correct tip voltage and pulse characteristics?
>  
> Is all the measurement equipment calibrated and cal tags current?
>  
> I could go on…
>  
> My colleague, Ghery Pettit wrote a recent blog on the subject for 
> Interference Technology: 
> https://interferencetechnology.com/emc-laboratory-selection-audit-items/ 
> <https://interferencetechnology.com/emc-laboratory-selection-audit-items/>
>  
> Cheers, Ken
> 
> ___
>  
> I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
> related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
> help!
>  
> Kenneth Wyatt
> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
> 56 Aspen Dr.
> Woodland Park, CO 80863
>  
> Phone: (719) 310-5418
>  
> Web Site <http://www.emc-seminars.com/> | Blog <https://design-4-emc.com/>
> The EMC Blog (EDN) 
> <https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/4376432/The-EMC-Blog>
> Subscribe to Newsletter 
> <http://www.emc-seminars.com/Newsletter/Newsletter.html>
> Connect with me on LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt/>
> 
> 
> On Apr 17, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Grasso, Charles  <mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>> wrote:
>  
> To those wondering what the background and conclusion to that question was:
>  
> Background:   Our testing was performed in a newly minted chamber so 
> proper
> EMC installation of our product was challenging. 
> Effect:   Ingress of high levels of external bb noise.
> Result:  Proper install eliminated the external noise and now 
> the system passed.
>  
> Concern: While I accept that proper installation and operation of our system 
> is our 
> responsibility, I had expected that the tester would point to the excessive 
> ambient
> and indicate that our data may not be valid. An inexperienced customer would
> have  left thinking that their product had failed. 
>  
> Am I wrong?
>  
>  
> Thanks!
>  
> Charles Grasso 
> W: 303-706-5467
>  
> -
> 
> 

[PSES] Sheet resistor material

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi All,

I’m looking for a source for Sheet resistor material. So far my internet 
searching has pulled up nothing, can anyone give me some pointers?

Thanks,

Derek.

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Re: [PSES] Testing a product with that uses a solar panel

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi All,

I totally agree with Ken, folks are totally trying to over think this.

Just shine incandescents so the inventor can run. The panel will not generate 
any noise.

Cheers,

Derek Walton.

> On Feb 14, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Ken Javor  wrote:
> 
> OK, but why? It’s an EMI test, not a test of solar array performance.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> From: Edward Price 
> Reply-To: Edward Price 
> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:36:53 +
> To: 
> Conversation: [PSES] Testing a product with that uses a solar panel
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Testing a product with that uses a solar panel
> 
> Ken:
>  
> I got the impression from the original question that the solar panel was 
> integrated with an inverter. That means that there might be coupling 
> interactions between the inverter circuitry and the solar panel array 
> conductors and/or the solar panel support structure. Indeed, the whole solar 
> panel might be radiating noise that is backing up from the inverter.
>  
> Ken, do you recall what type of light source they used to use for those 
> high-vacuum chambers that were used to simulate a true space environment for 
> satellites? Those lights would have an optimal light spectral characteristic. 
> Chuck might want to see if he can access one of those facilities; they could 
> do a solar exposure inside a shielded volume, and they wouldn’t have to pull 
> a vacuum.
>  
> Maybe somebody in the solar panel industry has set up an RF shielded 
> enclosure dedicated to solar panel testing. I could imagine about a two-foot 
> diameter Solar Tube equivalent device, fitted at the top with a sun-tracking 
> heliostat, directing the sunlight through a honeycomb filter enclosure 
> penetration and onto the solar panel EUT.
>  
>  
> 
> Ed Price
> WB6WSN
> Chula Vista, CA USA
>  
> 
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
> <mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:54 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Testing a product with that uses a solar panel
> 
> I am well aware that an incandescent light bulb doesn’t emit the same 
> spectral signature as received from the sun.
> 
> But the test is not about the detailed performance of the solar panel, but 
> only that the device-under-test runs off electricity generated by the solar 
> panel. Unless the EMI signature somehow depends on the type of light 
> impinging on the panels, as opposed to a nominal electric output from the 
> panels, it would seem that any electrically quiet light source would suffice.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> From: Scott Aldous <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
> Reply-To: Scott Aldous 
> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:27:27 -0800
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Testing a product with that uses a solar panel
> 
> Hi Ken,
> 
> A 500W incandescent light will give you some voltage/current from your solar 
> panel, but it won't be representative of actual sunlight if this is important 
> to your test. The spectrum (or energy) for artificial light will not be the 
> same as the spectrum of sunlight. UL 1703 makes reference to a few different 
> standards, including ASTM E927 <https://www.astm.org/Standards/E927.htm> , 
> which describes performance requirements for a solar simulator 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_simulator> . IEC 60904-9 
> <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/3880>  does the same. Here 
> <http://www.eternalsun.com/industries/certification/> 
> <http://www.eternalsun.com/industries/certification/>  is an example of a 
> solar simulator manufacturer claiming that their product is appropriate for 
> PV cert testing, including for IEC 61215 
> <https://webstore.iec.ch/preview/info_iec61215-1%7Bed1.0%7Db.pdf> . This is 
> very likely overkill for what you need to do, but you should be aware of the 
> limitations of using a common incandescent.
> 
> IEC 62920:2017 covers PCE (power conversion equipment, i.e. the inverter), 
> but not the modules themselves so I don't believe it has guidance on an 
> artificial light source.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:09 AM John Woodgate  wrote:
>
>  
> 
> CISPR 11:2015 CSV covers radiation. IEC 62920:2017  is also needed.
> 
>  
> Best wishes
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
> <http://www.woodjohn.uk/> 
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>  
> On 2019-02-14 03:36, Ken Javor wrote:
>  
>  
>   Waited to see if anyone would answer and didn’t see any answers, so what 
> about a 500 W work light? They are incandescent.
>  
>  Ken Javor
>

[PSES] KDB 896810

[DEREK WALTON]

Good day folks,

does anyone have a copy of this KDB they can forward please. I made the mistake 
of relying on the US government to host the information.

Thanks,

Derek.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] IEC 61000-4-5 Surge Testing Single plug vs. multiple plug system

[Derek Walton]

Hi folks,

I've been following this discussion but traveling so I haven't responded 
earlier.

The situation when you have multiple power inputs arises across multiple 
standards, not just in the CE mark surge. And it's often dealt with in the same 
way. 

We develop the surge generator to represent the threat we are likely to see at 
the point the EUT connects to the power bus, and a key element is the source 
impedance. 

So, if we reach a point on the power distribution system, where we can 
guarantee the connections will always be present, then it seems appropriate 
that you can test with them all connected. If that isn't the case, then you 
should test individually with perhaps one exception. 

With all connections made, if the surge voltage is insignificantly loaded 
during the test ( indicating the inputs don't have clamping type protection ) 
it is reasonable to say that all inputs have been appropriately tested. If the 
voltage waveform is loaded, then it would be inappropriate to say a power input 
has been tested. 

Since surge can be long winded, a little bit of engineering can really help 
reduce the test costs, but still meet the intent.

Thoughts always welcome.

Cheers,

Derek Walton
LF Research/SSCLabs.
Reno, NV.

Sent from my iPad Pro

On Jan 2, 2019, at 11:13 PM, John Woodgate  wrote:

I feel sure that 
"When testing line to ground, the lines are tested singly in sequence, if there 
is no other
specification."

is about 3-phase supplies, not multiple mains leads.
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
> On 2019-01-03 01:15, John Howe wrote:
> IEC 61000-4-5 (2005) does cover this and implies in section 8.3 (page 38 in 
> my copy):
> "In the case of several identical circuits, representative measurements 
> (plural) on a selected number
> of circuits may be sufficient. "
> and further down:
> "When testing line to ground, the lines are tested singly in sequence, if 
> there is no other
> specification."
> 
> From testing experience the only out we had for a client to test them all 
> together (usually because they did not want to pay for individual testing) 
> was if they were designed to be plugged into the same circuit breaker - which 
> kind of defeats the purpose of having multiple cords. If you think about it 
> if the cords are plugged into different circuits then the surge path to the 
> individual cords can be different and you should not model it as equal on all 
> cords - it could be out of phase as much as 180 degrees giving twice the 
> surge across 2 cords. So keeping the other plugs at normal while the one cord 
> is tested seems to be good practice.
> 
> My opinions only and not necessarily those of the company I work for
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:35 PM John Woodgate  wrote:
>> Should you be testing a 'system' as a whole anyway? My take on this is that 
>> if several pieces of equipment are invoiced together with a single price for 
>> the lot, that is a system   and all must be tested 
>> together. But if the pieces are invoiced separately (so that other equipment 
>> might be substituted for some in another instance), that is not a system and 
>> the pieces should be tested separately.
>> 
>> The authors of 61000-4-5 and 61326-x might well not have addressed the case 
>> of multiple power cords. The test house 'advice' seems reasonable, but it is 
>> not official and   another test house might offer other 
>> advice.
>> Best wishes
>> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
>> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
>> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>>> On 2019-01-02 22:15, Larry K. Stillings wrote:
>>> All,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I received the following email from a customer today via their customer 
>>> addressing our application of surge testing. We are testing laboratory 
>>> equipment per IEC/EN 61326-1 and IEC/EN 61326-2-6 and specifically are 
>>> having failures with respect to surge on a system that has multiple power 
>>> cords. We are testing one power cord at a time. Here are their comments
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> we have never tested a system comprised of multiple instruments in this way 
>>> before. i.e. applying surge to one unit at a time – we have always, with 
>>> agreement from our customers, applied surge (and in fact all tests) to all 
>>> of the units plugged into e.g. a mains distribution block all at the same 
>>> time. Especially for surge, it seems unlikely that in the real world any 
>>> real surge on the mains supply would not affect all things in a system as 
>>>

Re: [PSES] EN61000-4-6 adapters

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi Bart,

Thanks for the reply, but I think I have to disagree. The vertical bracket is 
the reference plane is it not?, as opposed to the ground plane under the 
set-up. And I interpret Figure 8e to clearly show the series element on the “ 
EUT " side of that bracket.

I think we agree, these are mainly used when level setting for the CDN’s, but 
also used when characterizing the EM Clamp too.

I‘m looking at the EN version issue in 2015, I’m sure they are the same.

Thanks,

Derek.

> On Dec 29, 2018, at 2:41 PM, Bart De Geeter  wrote:
> 
> Hi Derek,
> 
> According to me Fig 8e is just a construction sample of a 150 Ohm to 50Ohm 
> adapter.  (An L-shaped metallic bracket).  This bracket is put on top of the 
> reference plane.  (But this reference plane is not drawn in this picture).
> Typically this adapters are used when performing the 'reference calibrations' 
> and they are always on top of the reference plane.
> 
> (P.S.  I looked to the pictures of the 2013 version of the standard)
> 
> Greetings,
> Bart
> 
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: DEREK WALTON <00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
> Verzonden: zaterdag 29 december 2018 19:59
> Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Onderwerp: [PSES] EN61000-4-6 adapters
> 
> Good day folks,
> 
> I’m re-educating myself on EN61000-4-6 and looking at the section discussing 
> 150 Ohm to 50 Ohm adaptors I am curious why the series 100 Ohm resistor is 
> added on the “Outside” of the reference plane for the EM Clamp and on the 
> “Inside” of the reference plane for the CDN. For example, Figure 8e Vs Figure 
> 9c ( these two figures appear conflicting ) Vs Figures A 9/A 10
> 
> Can anyone enlighten me as to why this was done please.
> 
> A Happy New Year to all!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Derek.
> 
> -
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[PSES] EN61000-4-6 adapters

[DEREK WALTON]

Good day folks,

I’m re-educating myself on EN61000-4-6 and looking at the section discussing 
150 Ohm to 50 Ohm adaptors I am curious why the series 100 Ohm resistor is 
added on the “Outside” of the reference plane for the EM Clamp and on the 
“Inside” of the reference plane for the CDN. For example, Figure 8e Vs Figure 
9c ( these two figures appear conflicting ) Vs Figures A 9/A 10

Can anyone enlighten me as to why this was done please.

A Happy New Year to all!

Cheers,

Derek.

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Re: [PSES] NSG600 Manual

[DEREK WALTON]

Hi John,

thanks. Yep, I’ve seen this, it’s more of a spec sheet.

Happy New Year!!!

Cheers,

Derek.

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 3:50 PM, John Woodgate  wrote:
> 
> A web search show that you can rent an NSG600, so the renters probably have 
> all manuals. There is a PDF data sheet at:
> 
> http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/SCHAFFNER-NSG600-Datasheet.pdf 
> <http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/SCHAFFNER-NSG600-Datasheet.pdf>, 
> but it might not help you.
> 
> Best wishes
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk/>
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
> On 2018-12-27 21:22, DEREK WALTON wrote:
>> Good day folks,
>> 
>> I was wondering if anyone has the user manual for the NSG600. I’ve tried 
>> Teseq/Schaffner but most people that might have one in a drawer have all 
>> retired :-)
>> 
>> Why I’m doing this is that the instrument has a peculiar way of hooking up 
>> the Capacitive clamp, ie, there are two Fischer connectors and I’m trying to 
>> figure the way it was intended to connect.
>> 
>> Anyone throw any light on this?
>> 
>> Thanks and Happy New Year!
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Derek Walton.
>> L F Research.
>> 
>> -
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[PSES] NSG600 Manual

[DEREK WALTON]

Good day folks,

I was wondering if anyone has the user manual for the NSG600. I’ve tried 
Teseq/Schaffner but most people that might have one in a drawer have all 
retired :-)

Why I’m doing this is that the instrument has a peculiar way of hooking up the 
Capacitive clamp, ie, there are two Fischer connectors and I’m trying to figure 
the way it was intended to connect.

Anyone throw any light on this?

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Cheers,

Derek Walton.
L F Research.

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[PSES] Testing comparison

[Derek Walton]

Hi folks, 


I'm trying to a gap analysis for Testing done in 1999 to what they should be 
complying with today.


In a nutshell, the product standard never called out dated versions, and still 
doesn't, so I believe I can just compare the test standard active at the time 
of the original testing, to what is active now. In so doing, I can develop a 
list of areas where the original testing is no longer adequate. 


Question 1:  Is this the optimum approach? Or, is this an OK way to validate 
the product is currently compliant.


So, Question 2. To make life easier, is anyone aware of a summary of changes 
between each version? Otherwise I see myself going through each standard one at 
a time: a laborious prospect now the weathers turned nice.


I live in hope,


Thank you,


Derek Walton
L F Research

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Re: [PSES] Testing comparison

[Derek Walton]

Hi John,


yes, this for product destined for Europe. The company are looking to future 
proof a little so we don't need to do this for a while.


Sincerely,

Derek.



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Mon, May 26, 2014 11:05 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] Testing comparison


In message 8d1470feaef395d-2584-1c...@webmailstg-vd01.sysops.aol.com, 
dated Mon, 26 May 2014, Derek Walton 
00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org writes:

I'm trying to a gap analysis for Testing done in 1999 to what they 
should be complying with today.

In a nutshell, the product standard never called out dated versions, 
and still doesn't,

This is user-unfriendly. While the advantages and disadvantages of dated 
and undated references are *nearly* balanced, the uncertainty of the 
standards user, faced with a string of undated references, very much 
tips the balance for me.

Undated references are OK for standards that aren't related to 
regulatory issues, but for EMC and safety standards, I believe all 
normative references must be dated.

so I believe I can just compare the test standard active at the time of 
the original testing, to what is active now. In so doing, I can develop 
a list of areas where the original testing is no longer adequate. 

Question 1:  Is this the optimum approach? Or, is this an OK way to 
validate the product is currently compliant.

Are we talking about Europe or elsewhere? You really need to compare the 
*test report* with whatever standard is acceptable now according to the 
OJ list. That would be the latest 'notified' version plus any older 
version that is still in 'transition'.

So, Question 2. To make life easier, is anyone aware of a summary of 
changes between each version? Otherwise I see myself going through each 
standard one at a time: a laborious prospect now the weathers turned 
nice.

Some IEC/CISPR standards are available in 'redline' versions that show 
the text changes from the previous edition. See the IEC web site for 
more information.

Third-party summaries can be risky insofar as they tend to paraphrase 
the actual changed wording, perhaps not mentioning new Notes or 
cross-references, and that might be critical for your product. They also 
don't usually mention changes to normatively referenced standards.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Higher EMI from ASIC built with new process

[Derek Walton]

Hi Ravinder,


James's comment made me wonder about a statement you made about rise times 
being the same. Are you sure what you are seeing isn't the limit of your 
measuring technique? A broader noise spectrum may be due to a faster rise time 
that you are not seeing in the time domain. I too have observed that flip chips 
exhibit more heat-sink coupling.


Also, do not rely on data sheets for these numbers, they can differ wildly.


Can you alter the behavior of the chip to determine if one section of circuitry 
is responsible? e.g. output buffers..


Are the emissions from the whole package? do any of the signals from the ASIC 
leave the PWB?  I recall fixing a problem with a board where the ASIC powered a 
front panel LED. That LED didn't rearly need the nS rise times from the ASIC.

Keep posting clues...


Sincerely,


Derek
L F Research.


-Original Message-
From: Pawson, James james.paw...@echostar.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Mon, Mar 24, 2014 4:46 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] Higher EMI from ASIC built with new process



Hello Ravinder,
 
I wasn’t going to answer this as you were asking the experts ;)
 
Flip chips couple very well into their heatsinks compared to older wirebond 
packages as the silicon is much closer to the top surface. Perhaps try 
grounding/decoupling the heatsink or changing to a ceramic material for 
diagnosis of the problem?
 
Also, the package bond inductance will probably have reduced. You could look at 
increasing the decoupling, especially on any digital core and driver pins.
 
Has the manufacturer provided updated reference schematics for the new chip?
 
Rgds
James Pawson
EchoStar Europe
 
From: ravinder.ajm...@hgst.com [mailto:ravinder.ajm...@hgst.com]
Sent: 23 March 2014 01:39
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Higher EMI from ASIC built with new process
 

Hi Experts,

I am comparing EMI from two ASICs.  Both have identical rise/fall times and 
signal amplitude.  Yet the ASIC built with the later technology not only has 
significantly higher radiated emissions, but also shows much broader noise 
spectrum.  PCB stackup and layout is identical.  Please help me understand what 
other factors can be responsible for this anomaly.

The older ASIC uses a wirebond package, whereas the new ASIC has flip chip 
package.

Regards
Ravinder Ajmani
HGST, a Western Digital company
5601 Great Oaks Pkwy
San Jose, CA 95119-1003
ravinder.ajm...@hgst.com
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Re: [PSES] common charger for radio equipment

[Derek Walton]

I guess this is another case of Euro-politics. 


As an Apple user, I'm biased. Or, more correctly, I buy better quality 
hardware. I sincerely hope that for stupid reasons such as this, the EU doesn't 
sway Apple from it's current lightning connector. It is superior in every way 
to the USB connector.

How about eliminating sales taxes on one or two power supply styles, lets see 
how the market reacts. I'm dammed if I want governments making choices for me!


More like 25 cents worth.


Derek Walton


-Original Message-
From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 1:54 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] common charger for radio equipment


Note this EC-text addresses mobile phones and thelike, and not their 
chargers

As the text is to be included in the RTTE directive and the whereas part 
reads 
:
In particular, mobile phones that are made available on the market should be 
compatible with a common charger, 
and
 in particular for the benefit of consumers 


one may conclude that it's mobile phones that are targeted only.
The new RTTE directive addresses wireless radio only (terminal equipment will 
be 
left out) so
it's difficult to find consumer products that are radio, need chargers, and are 
not mobile phone

I am curious on how the directive will address DECT equipment, as they are 
often 
equipped with desktop chargers,
that allow easy placement (and pick up).

More specifically, this text is directed to Apple computers, as they refused to 
implement
the code of conduct that introduced the micro-USB charger connector earlier 
last 
decade.
 
Note that the directive does not oblige Apple to abandon their proprietary 
charge connector, but requires
their phones to be compatible only. I expect apple to provide a simple adapter 
to make it compatible.


Although the type of connector is not defined in this document, I expect the 
micro-usb to be the connector of choice , as this was the type recommended in 
the code of conduct.

I welcome the standardization effort, but I think it has not been well 
formulate 
because the text will be largely ineffective as long as the delivered charger 
devices are not included
allowing Apple to deliver the current charger type and for the EC provide a 
cumbersome external adapter (micro-USB to Apple proprietary) that will be 
quickly abandoned by its users, leading to a waste pile of adapters.

I suggest Brian, that any complaints regarding this, are to addressed directly 
to the King of the EC
in Brussels

Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc



g.grem...@cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953

 Before printing, think about the environment. 


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Verzonden: Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:31 PM
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: [PSES] common charger for radio equipment

So the EU releases something for the Radio Equipment Directive:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2014-0246+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Which say this:
A renewed effort to develop a common charger for particular categories or 
classes of radio equipment is necessary, in particular for the benefit of 
consumers and other end-users; this Directive should therefore include specific 
requirements in that area. In particular, mobile phones that are made available 
on the market should be compatible with a common charger

Had not given much thought to this until a scope statement or definition for 
the 
particular class of equipment affected was nowhere to be found. Can someone 
point me to this info? Will the EU scope the 'common' charger for all hand-held 
radio equipment, or just mobile phones? Or perhaps the King of Brussels 
intended 
to say chargers for the commoners?

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: [PSES] Schaffer surge generator

[Derek Walton]

Hi Cortland,


and anyone else who gets in this position.


First, an assessor cannot stop you using anything. The role of an assessor is 
eyes and ears in a lab, not a prefect.


If an assessor thinks you are doing something wrong, or not complying, then 
he/she MUST write a deficiency. To do so, they must show you where you are not 
complying.


Force the assessor to do this, do not trust hearsay something is wrong. The 
reason I say this is because when the report goes back to the assessing body, a 
different set of eyes reviews the concern. This is where you make your case and 
can quite often get satisfaction if the deficiency is vague.


Second, there is nothing wrong with developing your own generator, I have done 
it, and will continue to do so, many labs I visit will do too.


Assessing labs require you to demonstrate national standards traceability, and 
give several options to do so. The simplest is going to an accredited cal lab 
with that type of equipment on their scope. But the path is open for you to do 
this yourself, IF you put the appropriate measures in place: often times this 
isn't worth it, so then you fall back to going to an accredited lab.

The problem that arises is that most folks do not differentiate properly 
between a quick check the equipment is functioning Vs a complete review of the 
entire equipment. Both have their place.

Cheers,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: CR k...@earthlink.net
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: [PSES] Schaffer surge generator


  



  
  I once spent some time at a  Southern California lab that built their 
own damped sinewave  circuit only to have an assessor forbid its use 
because it  couldn't be  calibrated.
  
Next;  NIST traceable connectors?

  
  
Cortland Richmond
  
  
  On 3/3/2014 1:18 PM, Pat Lawler wrote:


  
All,
  
I need to calibrate our Schaffer NSG2050/PNW2055surge generator.  Two 
cal houses have 'no bid', and I'm waitingfor Teseq to reply.
  
Any suggestions for facilities in (or near)California?
  
Pat


  
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Re: [PSES] Schaffer surge generator

[Derek Walton]

Do you need an Accredited Calibration, or just NIST traceable?


Cheers,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Pat Lawler plawl...@gmail.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:20 pm
Subject: [PSES] Schaffer surge generator


All,
I need to calibrate our Schaffer NSG2050/PNW2055 surge generator.  Two cal 
houses have 'no bid', and I'm waiting for Teseq to reply.
Any suggestions for facilities in (or near) California?
Pat
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[PSES] RF test cables

[Derek Walton]

HI All,


I'm looking to replace two of my aging trusty cables used in my EMI chamber. 
They are used mainly for hooking up the room wall to antenna, so flexibility, 
ability to hold up to occasional standing on, low loss and ideally carry a few 
hundred watts of power would be ideal. I keep two, mainly one is used below a 
GHz, the other could be used up to 40 GHz.


I'd be grateful for folks that share there positive and negative experiences 
with different types and suppliers. Off list might be best, thanks.


Sincerely,


Derek Walton
L F Research

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Re: [PSES] Aircraft Electronics ATP

[Derek Walton]

HI Ed,


thank you for keeping me honest :-)


ATP was intended to mean Acceptance Test Procedure, and here I may have assumed 
too much. So, elaborating:


What I was meaning is that the manufacturer of an avionics box derives a set of 
tests that are run in order to show the box is serviceable. Usually it is a 
complete set of tests, and, depending on technical justification and what has 
happened to the box, may be run in whole, or in part.


It's not unusual to run a hi-pot test for example, but when thats done the EMI 
filters are floated.


For one of my employers, I forced a Network analyzer test until sufficient data 
was collected showing the bugs were worked out of manufacturing. I was 
unsuccessful in forcing that same test if the box was repaired: since repairs 
could be done almost anywhere in the globe, I often wondered if deficient 
hardware was out there as some assembly steps would negate the EMI protection 
but not show up in functional testing.


I'm trying to gauge what industry does these days. As a frequent flier, I 
want a perfectly operational box on my airplane! Oh, and for those of my 
friends that don't fly, I want to make sure nothing falls on their heads :-)


Sincerely,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Ed Price edpr...@cox.net
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 11:52 pm
Subject: Re: [PSES] Aircraft Electronics ATP



Derek:
 
Is “ATP” an Acceptance Test Procedure? If so, then acceptance by who, and to 
what specification? Is the device to be sold in the after-market, or to a prime 
who integrates it onto his platform?
 
In very general terms, any test checks what the buyer and seller agree upon. At 
one extreme, a seller may do no testing, and a buyer tests the device at his 
own expense in order to confidently use it. At the other extreme, a seller may 
test the heck out of something, although the buyer couldn’t care less, so long 
as it’s cheap.
 
Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA
1961 Amphicar 770
2001 Fleetwood Storm 31W
2008 Ford Explorer
 
From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 6:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Aircraft Electronics ATP
 
Good day folks, 

 

would anyone care to share on, or off list, what they are able to get performed 
as part of an ATP specifically checking EMC protection?

 

Not intending to start an argument, just get some ideas if folks check filter 
pins, transient devices, isolation etc as part of an ATP

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Derek Walton

L F Research

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[PSES] Aircraft Electronics ATP

[Derek Walton]

Good day folks,


would anyone care to share on, or off list, what they are able to get performed 
as part of an ATP specifically checking EMC protection?


Not intending to start an argument, just get some ideas if folks check filter 
pins, transient devices, isolation etc as part of an ATP


Thanks in advance,


Derek Walton
L F Research

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[PSES] EMC Puzzle update

[Derek Walton]

First off, many thanks to all who replied on and off list.


Most of the replies we had already addressed, but here is an update.


To re-cap, we had a sealed metal box with just a power cord, and that power 
cord had feed through type caps. In theory this should not radiate.


To save the agony that we went through what was finally identified was on a 6 
layer board, 6 traces left the sanctuary of a ground or power plane and were 
routed directly over a thin chassis plane that was incorporated to increase the 
number of chassis connections that we really needed on this board. Even though 
internal, we were able to break that connection and emissions reduced close to 
30 dB. A board re-layout is needed to really fix this issue.


As part of the debugging process, we also found that since the board chassis 
layer was backfeeding the Ethernet connector housing metal and the grounding 
tabs were just not adequate for bonding. The result was current on the outside 
of the case that cause the enclosure to radiate pretty much equally in all 
directions... Can I patent this? :-)


The lesson here is that if you do bring chassis onto your PWB, and we do as a 
means to divert ESD and some RF current, that you keep it well away from 
internal high speed or sensitive traces and ideally confined to the region 
around where it's used.


After our mods, we now have dropped from 20 dB over class A to about 13 dB 
under Class B.


A big thank you once more to everyone that replied!!! Seasons Greatings to all.


Sincerely,

Derek.
L F Research

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Re: [PSES] EMC Puzzle update

[Derek Walton]

HI James,


This problem child isn't my design, just one that came in my lab for debugging 
and testing: my life revolves around fixing other peoples problems :-)


I am not a proponent of having all planes tied together, only ever seen 
disasters that way. If you allow circuit currents to deliberately on 
inadvertently flow in the chassis it becomes a nightmare to control them. Much 
better to separate and segregate so you have control over outbound ( usually on 
a trace ) and return current ( usually on a plane ). This technique also allows 
you to keep outside threats like ESD and HIRF restricted to the connector and 
prevents them progressing into your ( metal ) box. If your box is plastic, you 
have to me more careful.

Does this help?


Cheers,


Derek.
L F Research


-Original Message-
From: Pawson, James james.paw...@echostar.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC Puzzle update



Hi Derek,
 
I’m glad you managed to find out what had been causing that problem. Why did 
you elect to have a separate “chassis plane” in the first place that 
(presumably) wasn’t tied into the PCB ground planes? My (limited) understanding 
is that it is better to have all ground planes connected together to provide a 
good quality RF return path and minimise the chance of traces crossing plane 
splits.
 
Many thanks
James
 
From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: 19 December 2013 16:24
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC Puzzle update
 
First off, many thanks to all who replied on and off list.

 

Most of the replies we had already addressed, but here is an update.

 

To re-cap, we had a sealed metal box with just a power cord, and that power 
cord had feed through type caps. In theory this should not radiate.

 

To save the agony that we went through what was finally identified was on a 6 
layer board, 6 traces left the sanctuary of a ground or power plane and were 
routed directly over a thin chassis plane that was incorporated to increase the 
number of chassis connections that we really needed on this board. Even though 
internal, we were able to break that connection and emissions reduced close to 
30 dB. A board re-layout is needed to really fix this issue.

 

As part of the debugging process, we also found that since the board chassis 
layer was backfeeding the Ethernet connector housing metal and the grounding 
tabs were just not adequate for bonding. The result was current on the outside 
of the case that cause the enclosure to radiate pretty much equally in all 
directions... Can I patent this? :-)

 

The lesson here is that if you do bring chassis onto your PWB, and we do as a 
means to divert ESD and some RF current, that you keep it well away from 
internal high speed or sensitive traces and ideally confined to the region 
around where it's used.

 

After our mods, we now have dropped from 20 dB over class A to about 13 dB 
under Class B.

 

A big thank you once more to everyone that replied!!! Seasons Greatings to all.

 

Sincerely,


Derek.

L F Research

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[PSES] AR5000LP

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


I'm trying to locate one of these discontinued amplifiers. If anyone has one 
and would like to sell/rent, or knows where I can get one, can they please 
contact me off list.


Thanks,


Derek Walton

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[PSES] Michael Taylor

[Derek Walton]

Hi All,


I'm trying to find an email for Michael Taylor who used to be with Hach in 
Colorado.


Can anyone send me his address preferably off-line.


Thanks,


Derek Walton
L F Research

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Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit

[Derek Walton]

Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The 
problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, 
then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it 
was written!  Time we reduced the number of laws

Derek.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com wrote:

 Cortland 
 
 I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to 
 make. 
 
 Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws 
 are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance 
 with the law.  In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels 
 we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65.  
 
 In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the 
 CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations.  Now, if this 
 were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of 
 course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it 
 is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning 
 statements. 
 
 Doug
 
 
 
 From: Cortland Richmond
 Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Reply To: k...@earthlink.net
 Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
 
 The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into 
 the Code of Federal   Regulations by reference, various agencies render 
 invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading 
 rooms (I think) to find out. 
 
 In practice?  We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford 
 to buy copies of their own.  But imagine one day finding that one has been 
 convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs,  
 limits available only by subscription.
 
 
 Cortland Richmond  
 
 On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote:
 There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be 
 free.
  
 The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise.
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Peter L. Tarver
 
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Re: [PSES] EFT Generator series inductance

[Derek Walton]

I'll premise my reply by saying I could be wrong.. BUt...


My understanding to the Decoupling network in the CDN is to prevent common mode 
noise from leaving back to the power source. The concept is not to insert 
differential mode impedance. Any DM impedance there is is likely due to leakage 
inductance, and more than likely will be less than typical power wiring.


We meet this problem on some designs because they can't cope with even the LISN 
impedance, or the EMI room power line filters.


So, MHO is that the power supply you are testing doesn't have enough internal 
capacitance. In the real world, the wires leading from the power source to your 
power supply will have significant inductance, and you need to be able to 
function with that by making short term energy needs are available inside the 
power supply.


Next opinion please :-)


Derek Walton
L F Research



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 9:37 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] EFT Generator series inductance


In message 20674C50F7E3794CA35FDCAD2B0E494027996D4A90@hubmail, dated 
Thu, 3 Oct 2013, Kannan Dhamodaran kan...@india.tejasnetworks.com 
writes:

I?m facing a problem while connecting 48V DC-DC converter, with 6A 
input current, to EFT generator CDN. DC supply fed through CDN is 
unstable and produces huge ripple that leads to my DC-DC converter 
shutdown. This is observed while just powering ON and EFT not applied.

I think that some converter techniques can be intolerant of supply 
inductance in the way you report. The incremental input impedance of the 
converter can look like a capacitor in parallel with a negative 
resistor, so oscillation might occur with an inductive supply.

The resistor is negative because the output current and voltage are kept 
constant, so that if the supply voltage decreases, the input current has 
to increase.

One to frighten the standards committee with!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all
give the same information.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160

[Derek Walton]

HI Ken, 


this has a dc requirement for loads greater than 400 Watts, but not less like 
most avionics boxes. UNless I missed something.


Seems like something is missing to me..


Cheers,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 11:57 pm
Subject: Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160


Derek,

Check out section 16.7 control on current ripple ac/dc, power factor, harmonic 
current.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
Reply-To: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 23:22:35 -0400
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160

Hi Folks, 

the DO-160G conducted emissions limits begin at 150 kHz, I'm curious if there 
are other controlling documents that restrict emissions below 150? I believe 
Boeing does, and so does Airbus, but with DO-160 I don't see it.

I must have dozed through this discussion

Insight would be most welcome.

Sincerely,

Derek Walton
L F Research EMC facility.
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[PSES] SAE document

[Derek Walton]

HI All,


does anyone know where I can get AIR6219 


The SAE site says not available for purchase right now.


Sincerely,


Derek.

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[PSES] AF ripple in DO-160

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


the DO-160G conducted emissions limits begin at 150 kHz, I'm curious if there 
are other controlling documents that restrict emissions below 150? I believe 
Boeing does, and so does Airbus, but with DO-160 I don't see it.


I must have dozed through this discussion


Insight would be most welcome.


Sincerely,


Derek Walton
L F Research EMC facility.

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[PSES] SEU

[Derek Walton]

Hi folks. 

I'm faced with helping a company meet Single Event Upset requirements for  
aircraft. But our requirements are simply we should meet them

Can anyone point me to how we can show compliance

Thanks

Derek Walton

L f research 

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [PSES] EMC Required?

[Derek Walton]

HI Scott,


I'd like to reinforce what Don has said. I flew to Scotland in the early days 
of CE with a product that should have aced emissions and we were worried about 
susceptibility. It failed emissions and passed susceptibility. The 3 transistor 
circuit was singing away around 70 MHz.


I'm always reminded of the old saying we test to confirm our design is good


Cheers,

Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Don_Borowski don_borow...@selinc.com
To: emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
Cc: Scott Douglas sdoug...@radiusnorth.net
Sent: Fri, Jul 12, 2013 9:16 am
Subject: Re: EMC Required?


Scott-

I have seen some really simple circuitsusing common, cheap transistors that had 
unwanted oscillations in the rangeof 100 to 200 MHz, which failed radiated 
emissions.

The most recent one was similar to yourcircuit, though in the opposite 
direction -- a simple circuit with a fewtransistors driving the LED of an 
optocoupler for low speed digital data.The fix was simple (a small resistor in 
series with the base lead of thebipolar transistor driving the LED), but the 
test was essential, as thecircuit otherwise performed without a problem.

Don Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Scott Douglas sdoug...@radiusnorth.net
To:   emc-p...@ieee.orgemc-p...@ieee.org
Date:   07/12/2013 06:46 AM
Subject:   EMC Required?
Sent by:   emc-p...@ieee.org




Hi folks,

Consider a simple circuit. IR diode, a transistor or two, some resistors
and caps. Receives input from IR remote, converts to electrical and 
sends down a wire. No clock in the thing so you could call is passive.
But does it need EMC testing for US or EU? The IR signal will be in the
35-50 kHz range so pulses down the wire will be the same. Does this make
it fit within the realm of EMC required? The device is sold by itself 
without other products, but is always connected to something else in 
use. Something else could be a wide variety of anything. I think of it
like a stand-alone audio speaker. Purely a passive device that is driven
by signals that fall within the EMC required realm. So do you do EMC ornot?

Looking forward to your opinions on this.

Scott
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[PSES] High pulsed fields

[Derek Walton]

Hi All,


I'm currently working on a DO-160 design that has pulsed fields between 1000 
and 2000 v/m. 


I'm happy specifying filter parts for 200 v/m, but I'm curious if there are 
things I should take into account with the much higher peak fields, even though 
the duty cycle is low.


Quantifiable suggestions are most welcome.


Thanks,


Derek Walton
NCE #438
12790 Route 76
Poplar Grove, IL 61065, USA
W: 1 815 986 6685
M: 1 815 566 5655

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[PSES] Category of equipment in an Aircraft Cockpit

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


I'm looking into what DO-160G category is appropriate for equipment residing in 
the flight deck of a commercial airplane. I'm only concerned with Sections 15 
through 22.


Does the FAA ( or equivalent ) mandate this? Reading the advisory circular it's 
not quite clear. I want to ensure we don't over spec, and therefore over design 
our box


Replies on or off list are most welcome.


Thanks


Derek Walton


L F Research

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Re: [PSES] RFI on chamber vendors

[Derek Walton]

Curt. I suggest Peggy Gerard of panashield. Not only the owner but 
exceptionally helpful too. 

Cheers

Derek

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Curt McNamara mcnam...@umn.edu wrote:

 A customer I work with is asking about EMC chambers for investigation/debug 
 of unintentional radiation (not for official testing). Sounds like something 
 in the 3M range, up to 6 GHz. Who do I talk to? Want a potential range of 
 costs. It would go into an existing building. Equipment is a separate item, 
 however interested in recommendations on that as well.
 
 Thanks!
 
   Curt
 
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 Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
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Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report

[Derek Walton]

Whoa Anthony, back up a little.


Test reports can contain what the heck a lab likes, as long as interpretations 
are indicated as such.


These words extracted from ISO 17025, the most common test document:


Clause 5.10 covers reporting the results:


Clause 5.10.1 The results shall be reported, usually in a test report or a 
calibration certificate (see Note 1), and shall include
all the information requested by the customer and necessary for the 
interpretation of the test or calibration
results and all information required by the method used.


So, Point 1, if the customer asks for an interpretation, then the standard says 
the lab provides it.


Clause 5.10.3.1 d) where appropriate and needed, opinions and interpretations ( 
See 5.10.5 )


Clause 5.10.5 When opinions and interpretations are included, the laboratory 
shall document the basis upon which the
opinions and interpretations have been made. Opinions and interpretations shall 
be clearly marked as such in
a test report.


Point 2 ) Here a lab is told how to deal with opinions and interpretations.


As for Assessing bodies forbidding inclusion of opinions and interpretations, 
well, here is the section from the NVLAP checklist dealing with 5.10.5:



5.10.5
Opinions and interpretations


When opinions and interpretations are included, the laboratory shall document 
the basis upon which the opinions and interpretations have been made. Opinions 
and interpretations shall be clearly marked as such in a test report.


NOTE 1 Opinions and interpretations should not be confused with inspections and 
product certifications as intended in ISO/IEC 17020 and ISO/IEC Guide 65.


NOTE 2 Opinions and interpretations included in a test report may comprise, but 
not be limited to, the following:
i) an opinion on the statement of compliance/noncompliance of the results with 
requirements;
ii) fulfillment of contractual requirements;
iii) recommendations on how to use the results;
iv) guidance to be used for improvements.


NOTE 3 In many cases it might be appropriate to communicate the opinions and 
interpretations by direct dialogue with the customer. Such dialogue should be 
written down.



Perhaps a change in assessing body is in order?  


As for an organisation doing both design and test, I am all for it. In my 
visits to manufacturers test facilities from Japan to Israel, I have been most 
impressed by the majority that go well above and beyond what any 3rd party lab 
would do in testing product. They simply cannot ship millions of widgets every 
month with the threat of a recall from poor evaluation of their widget. 


My $ worth.


Derek.


-Original Message-
From: Anthony Thomson ton...@europe.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Wed, Mar 20, 2013 5:11 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report


 
So our EMC reports do “freeze” a  state of the product, by listing all 
relevant (in our opinion) construction details.
 
Test Reports from independent test laboratories should NEVER, NEVER EVER, 
incorporate subjective opinions. It is your duty to identify the EUT by means 
of serial numbers, h/w  s/w revisions, photographs, objective descriptions, 
declarations of the build from the client etc., and describe the test 
configuration and set-up by means of diagrams, photographs, operating 
instructions etc.
 
In fact, accreditation bodies expressly prohibit independent laboratories from 
expressing opinions.
 
Assistance in identifying EMC critical design elements would be a consultancy 
service and could only be conducted in collaboration with the design authority. 
That same consultancy organisation cannot produce an independent test report. 
 
T
 
 
 

- Original Message -
From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
Sent: 03/20/13 08:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report
 

EMC testing is a service to our clients, so as to allow them to sign
 
 
their Declaration of Compliance/conformance.
 
 
The EMC test report needs to enable our customer to 
 
 
efficiently and accurately create compliant products.
 
 
A problem with many small and medium enterprises is that they actually do not
 
 
know what they exactly offered for testing.  BOMs with almost unspecified 
 
 
parts are common. Mechanical drawings of the enclosure are often
 
 
missing   and I have yet to see
 
 
a customer provide me with a professional grounding diagram for EMC.
 
 
(Listing materials, paintings and EMC fixtures for example)
 
 
 
 
 
In fact most customers do NOT know what parts of the equipment
 
 
are relevant for EMC.
 
 
How ever can they produce compliant products ?
 
 
 
 
 
So our EMC reports do “freeze” a  state of the product, by
 
 
listing all relevant (in our opinion) construction details.
 
 
Starting with a diagram part list, pcb lay-outs and technical drawing,  
component brands
 
 
and grounding details are included. Software version is recorded
 
 
as well as 

[PSES] Boeing D6 16050-6

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


can anyone tell me a source for this document please?


Thanks,

Derek.

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Re: [PSES] Surge Test Power Supply Class 2 acc. EN61000-4-5

[Derek Walton]

Well folks. I disagree. Here's why. If the power supply is used in an 
application were the output is referenced to ground , you will not be stressing 
the primary to secondary circuits. If your power supply isn't man enough for 
this you should place warnings in your literature BEFORE purchase is made. 

MHO

Derek

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 8, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Anthony Thomson ton...@europe.com wrote:

  
 
 Table 4 of EN 55024 is clear enough, 1kV line-line and 2kV line-ground tested 
 i.a.w. IEC 61000-4-5.
 
  
 
 Clause 7.2 of 61000-4-5 says that, for double insulated products without an 
 earth, line-ground tests may be omitted.
 
  
 
 I would agree with your power supply manufacturer assuming the PSU is of 
 double insulated construction. 1 kV is sufficient to claim compliance to 
 '55024.
 
  
 T
  
 - Original Message -
 From: H.Köster
 Sent: 03/08/13 01:50 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] Surge Test Power Supply Class 2 acc. EN61000-4-5
  
 Hello group, 
 
 I have a question about the surge test for a 27VA ac adapter (without PE and 
 external earth connections) for IT equipment. 
 
 EN55024 refers to EN61000-4-5 requiring a test level of 1kV between L and N 
 and 2kV between L and PE as well as between N and PE. 
 
 The power supply failed the common mode tests of 2kV with damages. The power 
 supply manufacturer argues that the power supply has no PE connection and 
 therefore these common mode tests are not required. 
 
 Please give me your experts comments. 
 
 Thanks 
 
 Helmut Koester 
 
 PSi Engineering GmbH 
 mailto:h.koes...@psi-engineering.de 
 
   
 
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[PSES] Telescopes

[Derek Walton]

Hi all,


can anyone tell me if there is a product standard yet for professional 
telescopes. What might that come under?


Looking around the CEN site I don't see anything.


Thanks,

Derek Walton

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Re: [PSES] user's group ??

[Derek Walton]

Yes, there is a linked in Teseq Compliance 5 users group



-Original Message-
From: Conway, Patrick pcon...@ball.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Fri, Jan 11, 2013 3:12 pm
Subject: user's group ??



We are considering new automation tools for some of our MIL-STD-461 and DO-160 
tests.
I am hoping that there are user’s groups or forums for some of the more popular 
software packages.
 
Does anyone know of, or belong to, forums for TILE!, EMC Automation (TDK), 
RadiMotion (DARE!!), EMITest (CKC), or any other?  
 
Thanks in advance.
//
Patrick Conway
pcon...@ball.com
303.533.7165
Wetmoor WMR1
Westminster, CO 80021
 


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[PSES] iPhone 5 TxRx frequencies on 4g

[Derek Walton]

HI folks, can anyone tell me what transmit and receive frequencies my iPhone 5 
uses here on the US 4G network please.


Thanks,

Derek.

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Re: [PSES] iPhone 5 TxRx frequencies on 4g

[Derek Walton]

I'm on AT and T out here.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2013, at 16:00, Larry Stillings la...@complianceworldwide.com wrote:

 Derek,
  
 Who's 4G Network? ATT or Verizon or other carrier I am not familiar with? It 
 carrier will determine what part of the spectrum they own is being used for 
 4G.
  
 Most likely it would be the frequencies certified under FCC Part 27 of the 
 rules which are numerous.
  
 Larry
  
 From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] 
 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 12:14 PM
 To: emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: iPhone 5 TxRx frequencies on 4g
 
 HI folks, can anyone tell me what transmit and receive frequencies my iPhone 
 5 uses here on the US 4G network please.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Derek.
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Re: [PSES] Quasi-peak detector

[Derek Walton]

Sure this isn't power over Ethernet power supply?

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 27, 2012, at 14:55, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote:

 Performing troubleshoot testing to CISPR type radiated emissions requirements 
 without a quasi-peak detector.  Seeing results of bus traffic on an Ethernet 
 cable.  Squeezing down to zero-span mode and adjusting sweep speed, a roughly 
 500 us 50% duty cycle waveform is observed.
 
 Is it accurate to expect no “relief” during a full qualification testing 
 using a quasi-peak detector for this type of intermittent signal?
 
 Thank you,
   
 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261
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Re: [PSES] Fischer CC EM Clamp F-203I-32mm

[Derek Walton]

HI folks,


I guess I finally had to weigh in on this one.  We need to keep a few things in 
mind here:


1) The use of the EM Clamp is for when a CDN cannot be used, that doesn't mean 
when you don't own one. It means when it's impractical.


2) The clamp construction, described in one of the CISPR 16 documents, includes 
a capacitive line section. If you look in the clamp this is at the bottom. What 
this specifically means is that the clamp cannot be thought of as just another 
current injection probe.


3) The Clamp should be constructed so that the cable under test is pushed down 
against the capacitive line section: this is different to the CISPR 14 clamp 
where centering is desired. The assessor should have not asked for that, but, 
you should have known enough to argue back.


4) As for the height, I have to disagree. The EM Clamp has to be used over a 
ground plane, indeed, there is a mechanism for it to connect to the ground 
plane. I believe ( and stand ready to corrected ) that this is all part of 
forcing the clamp impedance, of which the capacitive strip plays a role. It 
would seem to me that the distance between this plate and the GRP is 
important. Maybe not so much at 150 kHz, but by the time we get past 200 MHz as 
required by some standards it will certainly be an influence.

I don't believe an accredited lab or unaccredited lab should do this any 
differently, or with different equipment. The test is the test: period. 
Accreditation simply means 3rd party observation of what they do.


In defense of assessors that do a fine job, if the standard calls for 
something, they will expect it. If the committee thought it important enough to 
define ( if there is leeway one would hope there are explanatory notes like in 
MIL STD 461 or DO-160 ), then it's appropriate to enforce. Shall Vs should, 
may, could etc.


My 10 cents worth.


Derek Walton
L F Research.



-Original Message-
From: Wendy Nya wendy...@yahoo.com
To: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net; EMC- PSTC 
emc-pstc@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 1:25 am
Subject: Re: Fischer CC EM Clamp F-203I-32mm



I think we have to give due respect to IEC and the many Experts who co-authored 
the standards. By giving more detail to the test setup and the equipment to be 
used, reduce the uncertainty and improve repeatability.
 
I do agree that 30-50mm vs 75mm height has no significant impact. However, as 
an accredited lab, we do have to follow the standards rigorously. There are 
some assessors who will ensure that the standard is followed exactly, or be 
prepared to submit a 'method deviation' document.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
We bought a TESEQ clamp - it complies to the height requirement. The maximum 
diameter of the cable feeding is 20mm.
 

 


From: Cortland Richmond k...@earthlink.net
To: EMC- PSTC emc-pstc@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Sent: Wednesday, 21 November 2012, 7:26
Subject: RE: Fischer CC EM Clamp F-203I-32mm



I've noticed that when people don't understand a test, they often try to make 
it conform to every detail in the standards, prescripitve or  or not.
  
If it really mattered, I suppose one could turn the clamp sideways...


Cortland Richmond

-Original Message- 
From: Kunde, Brian 
Sent: Nov 20, 2012 12:15 PM 
To: EMC- PSTC 
Subject: RE: Fischer CC EM Clamp F-203I-32mm 


Wendy,
 
Who makes an EM Clamp that has a cable entry of 30mm? The size of the cores 
needed to handle a cable diameter of any size will be large enough to make this 
difficult if not impossible. Plus you have to have room for the input ‘N’ 
connector mounted under the cores. 
 
I have never seen an EM Clamp where the cable entry wasn’t 50mm or greater 
though I’m not saying one doesn’t exist. Typically they are more like 75mm. 
 
I don’t know where your supplier got this requirement.  I don’t have the latest 
version of the 4-6 standard but the copy I have only states in section 7.2, 
“The cable between the AE and the injection clamp shall be kept between 30mm 
and 50mm above the ground reference plane”. The text doesn’t say anything about 
the height of the clamps or the cable height between the clamp and EUT, though 
the picture in figure 6 shows it as 30mm. 
 
I don’t see where the short distance the cable has to run higher than 30-50mm 
coming in and out of the clamp would have much impact on the test results.
 
The Other Brian
 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Nya
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 7:50 AM
To: EMC- PSTC
Subject: Fischer CC EM Clamp F-203I-32mm

 

Dear All,

 

We have a very old Fischer CC F-203I-32mm EM Clamp. A supplier pointed out that 
it does not comply to the 61000-4-6 standard's requirement - the height of the 
cable entry is more than the standard's requirement of 30-50mm.

 

I just checked Fischer CC website. They are still selling this model. Is anyone 
still using it? 

 

Regards,

Wendy

[PSES] Shielding materials

[Derek Walton]

HI Folks,


I'm looking for a source of either very fine braid, or even foil that I can use 
to make up a set of shielded cables. The typical braid has much too poor 
optical coverage. I'm envisaging most likely using 2 layers. cabels are less 
than 1/2 diameter.


Suggestions appreciated.


Cheers,

Derek Walton
L F Research

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[PSES] Light curtains

[Derek Walton]

Hi All,


I'm faced with helping a friend work through an OSHA finding that requires the 
fitting of light curtains on several machines in a metal fab shop. Several of 
these machines were never designed to have light curtains, but OSHA wants them.


So... Can anyone point me to resources specifically regarding what the machine 
should do if the light curtain is activated by a hand etc. Is terminating power 
to anything making movement happen sufficient? 


I hope this is not off the list topic list.


Thanks,


Derek Walton
L F Research.

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Re: [PSES] Calling all old-timers

[Derek Walton]

Perhaps. To help isolation It has several sections.  Only the output end has 
lower power parts

Derek

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2012, at 6:12 PM, don_borow...@selinc.com wrote:

 While the schematic may be a pi or T network, internally it may be a 
 series of pi or T networks, each section of which dissipates a given 
 amount of wattage. This means the input pi/T might attenuate say only a 
 few tenths of a dB, while the last pi/T also dissipates about the same 
 amount of power, but does so by having a much larger attenuation. Turn 
 things around, and this power distribution plan is totally shot.
 
 Alternatively, it is a single pi or T network, with a high power resistor 
 on the input side, and a lower power resistor on the output side.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Donald Borowski
 EMC Compliance Engineer
 Schweitzer Engineering Labs
 Pullman, WA, USA
 
 
 
 From:   Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Date:   09/27/2012 03:25 PM
 Subject:Calling all old-timers
 Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org
 
 
 
 Make that older-timers.
 
 Just purchased an Empire Devices AT-58 6 dB attenuator. It's big - looks
 like it ought to handle 100 Watts, but there is no indication of the power
 handling capability.
 
 Input and output are marked, and only the input side is supposed to face 
 the
 high power source, so the rating of internal resistors is based on
 individual power dissipation - schematically these things are symmetrical 
 so
 the power rating is the only reason for marking input and output.
 
 Any leads on this?
 
 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
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[PSES] High input impedance high voltage Voltmeter

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


I'm looking for options, besides BRANDENBURG, for a voltmeter to measure ESD 
tip voltage. Anyone care to share their experiences?


Off list response is fine.


Thanks,


Derek Walton
EMC Lab Services.

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Re: [PSES] Capacitor rating for mains useage

[Derek Walton]

HI Ken,


you don't say how small and it's relative you know :-)


Any cap I suggest for across the line use I strongly recommend it has an X 
rating, a Y rating if it goes between power and earth.

Is this what you were meaning?


Cheers,


Derek.




-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 5:58 pm
Subject: Capacitor rating for mains useage


Forum members,

Am trying to spec out some small value capacitors to be placed across
unrectified mains potentials.  These caps are rated at dc potentials way
beyond the peak of the ac bus potential, but they carry no ac rating.

What are the issues here? The cap should not breakdown at ac mains
potential, so what information does an ac rating provide? Is it related to
surge potentials that can appear on ac mains?

Thank you and happy Labor Day to those members are the west side of the
Pond.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

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[PSES] EN 61000-4-5

[Derek Walton]

Hi folks,


I'm trying to determine the maximum current that a TVS can cope with for the EN 
61000-4-5 pulse. Very few data sheets provide this and calculating it is not 
possible because device construction enters the equation.


Does anyone have any data on TVS current ability during the surge?


The TVS is being installed on a 24 DC line.


Thanks,

Derek.

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Re: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

[Derek Walton]

Hi Joe,


yes, this is the combination wave. We are using a Bi-Directional Transorb, but 
I believe the current rating is insufficient for the voltage level were aiming 
for.


You are correct that power ratings are normalized to a specific waveshape, but 
it is not possible to scale very much before other factors come into play.


Ideally, the manufacturer would give a series of curves for each industry test 
waveform, alas, this is not out there for devices we're called on to use. I 
found data for some ST devices, but nothing I can correlate to our part.


Cheers,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Joe Randolph j...@randolph-telecom.com
To: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com; emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
Sent: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: EN 61000-4-5


Hi Derek:

Are you referring to the so-called combination wave generatorthat has an open 
circuit voltage waveform of 1.2x50 uS and a shortcircuit waveform of 8x20 uS?

It was my impression that most TVS devices are specified for thiswaveform, but 
few are specified for the longer waveforms such as 10x1000uS that can show up 
on long cables.

If  the 24 VDC line you are trying to protect is a power supplyrail, you won't 
be able to use the high-current-handling SCR type devicessuch as sidactors 
because there will be a latch up problem with the DCcurrent once the device 
triggers.  You will be stuck with devicessuch as zener diodes or MOVs.  The 
zener diodes have limited surgecapability and MOVs have a wear-out 
characteristic, so each technologyhas its limitations.


Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848 (USA)
j...@randolph-telecom.com
http://www.randolph-telecom.com






Hifolks, 

I'm trying to determine the maximumcurrentthat a TVS can cope with for the EN 
61000-4-5 pulse. Very few data sheetsprovide this and calculating it is not 
possible because deviceconstruction enters the equation.

Does anyone have any data on TVS current ability during thesurge?

The TVS is being installed on a 24 DC line.

Thanks,

Derek.
-


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Re: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

[Derek Walton]

Hi Don,


I agree this is the case with passive devices like MOV's, but it seems that 
there is a finite current limit with Silicon which is what our TVS is.


I'm trying to find out how I can determine this.


Cheers,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Don_Borowski don_borow...@selinc.com
To: emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
Cc: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: EN 61000-4-5


If there is any sort of pulse rating of the device, the general rule of 
physics is that you can safely scale the power dissipation rating during 
the pulse by 1/sqrt(time ratio). For example, if your pulse is 1/4 as long 
as the pulse for which the rating is given, your pulse power can be 
increased by a factor of 2. Note that the energy absorbed is 1/2 as much 
with your pulse.

This works due to the way heat diffuses from the active area where the 
energy is being dissipated.

Donald Borowski
EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Date:   08/01/2012 11:59 AM
Subject:EN 61000-4-5
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



Hi folks, 

I'm trying to determine the maximum current that a TVS can cope with for 
the EN 61000-4-5 pulse. Very few data sheets provide this and calculating 
it is not possible because device construction enters the equation.

Does anyone have any data on TVS current ability during the surge?

The TVS is being installed on a 24 DC line.

Thanks,

Derek.


 

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Re: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

[Derek Walton]

Hi Fred,


I think you are over reacting here a little, I don't believe anyone is saying a 
TVS is a current regulator.


The TVS I'm specifically dealing with is essentially a back to back Zener diode 
with the Die optimized for heat removal between two large electrodes.


You are incorrect saying that these must be used with other additional 
components. All surges have a defined source impedance, which is accounted for 
in the selection of the part. When you make 8 million a month of a part, you do 
not include a fraction of a cent more than necessary. If you have a SMPS, then 
by all means make use of the passive components to aid the TVS. OTOH, if you 
have a linear regulator, the only filter is for passing the immunity tests.

The En 61000-4-5 spike is widely used, and I am lamenting manufacturers that do 
not list the current sink capability for this spike of their parts. One GOOD 
vendor ( others take note ) is ST. Check out Figure 5 here:


http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATASHEET/CD1367.pdf
 


It would be most helpful if this chart were on all TVS data sheets.


One nit-pick, I would not include a Zener as a TVS. Zeners are physically more 
designed for voltage regulation than the absorption of energy. Maybe this is 
what you were thinking Fred? 


Sincerely,

Derek.
L F Research


-Original Message-
From: Fred Townsend ftowns...@sbcglobal.net
To: 'Joe Randolph' j...@randolph-telecom.com; 'McInturff, Gary' 
gary.mcintu...@esterline.com; jrbarnes jrbar...@iglou.com; EMC-PSTC 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:40 pm
Subject: RE: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5



Hi Joe:
I have no quibble with your definition of TVS nor extending the term of TVS to 
surge devices like gas tubes which are both fast and surge capable. My 
objection is terming to TVS as current regulators or the idea they can be 
analyzed as standalone devices. The base parameters of the TVS must be summed 
with the network values, such as inductance, capacitance, and resistance to 
ascertain their performance levels.   
Best regards,
Fred Townsend
 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Joe Randolph
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 6:11 PM
To: Fred Townsend; 'McInturff, Gary'; jrbar...@iglou.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

 
Hi Fred:

I think that for many people in the industry, the term TVS means, simply, 
Transient Voltage Suppressor.  

In this context, TVS is just a descriptive term that can be taken to 
encompass any device that is used to suppress transient voltages.  Under this 
broad definition, devices such as zener diodes, MOVs, sidactors, and even gas 
tubes could be legitimately characterized as TVS devices.


Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848 (USA)
j...@randolph-telecom.com
http://www.randolph-telecom.com 




Gentlemen:
My head is swimming. Forgive me for criticizing but TVS don't limit any
current. They are fast transient voltage clamps designed to be members of
inductive networks. The clamps are often used to suppress ringing where
symmetry is of no concern. See YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cXUTKg2T1A
TVS are optimized for speed and therefore not very good surge suppressors.
Their voltage rating is usually pegged just above the circuit sustaining
voltage. Capacitive networks generally don't need transient suppression. 

MOVs are surge suppressors usually rated in KVA or joules of energy. 
See YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ5hHBVWOB4 
MOV handle much more energy at the expense of speed. Where transient and
surge protection are needed (say lightning), then both TVS and MOVs are
jointly used.

Both TVS and MOVs are designed to be members of networks and don't work very
well as standalone devices.

OK I'll crawl back into my hole now.

Fred Townsend
DC to Light Insulting

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff,
Gary
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 4:21 PM
To: 'jrbar...@iglou.com'; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
Subject: RE: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

Non symmetry is also the case of ESD diodes or TVS, they may limit the
forward current to 24V, but the reverse might be 18 Vdc, and that varies
from vendor to vendor even though they are rated on the data sheet similarly


Gary

-Original Message-
From: John Barnes [mailto:jrbar...@iglou.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EN 61000-4-5

Derek,
I ran into a similar problem about six years ago, where a 10-30VDC product
for use on earth-moving equipment had its DC power protected by a Microsemi
1.5KE51CA-T bidirectional transient suppressor.  Applying a single -1kV EN
61000-4-5 surge between power and ground would short out the transient
suppressor with fancy fireworks and lots of smoke.  

In the first page of the datasheet for the 1.5KE51CA-T
   

[PSES] EMC Plan

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,


I'm trying to remember the requirements for an EMC plan from the Directive. Is 
there a formal discussion of this document anywhere?


Thanks,


Derek Walton

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[PSES] Microwave book

[Derek Walton]

Hi everyone






Not sure whether you can help…

 

I’m trying to track down a copy of the following:

 

J.S. Hollis, T.J. Lyon, L. Clayton: “Microwave Antenna Measurement”, 
Scientific-Atlanta Inc., July 1970

 

I believe that this is a complete book, but there is a section on Free space 
VSWR verification measurements of antenna chambers that I am interested in and 
I think that this was published as a separate paper. That is the bit that I 
want.

I will buy the whole book otherwise, if I can track it down. Googling brings up 
lots of references to this, but not the actual document itself.

 

Know anybody that might be able to lay their hands on a copy of this for me?

 

Cheers,

 

Derek Walton
L F Research


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Re: [PSES] database

[Derek Walton]

Hi Jim,


I back what Ken says. But, for those of us that use real computers, MAC's, you 
may want to consider filemaker.


http://www.filemaker.com/ 


Sincerely,


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: Ken Wyatt k...@emc-seminars.com
To: Goedderz, Jim jgoedd...@tycoint.com
Cc: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [PSES] database


We created a homebrew regs database for Agilent products and because it was 
completely custom, required months of effort just to get the first working 
version - and then years of maintenance to get it working optimally. I'd stick 
with something off the shelf, as you've specified, and perhaps cloud-based. 
Here's a list of some popular packages: 
http://database.software.informer.com/software/. I've not found anything 
specifically designed for product regulations.


Ken



___
Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
Woodland Park, CO
Email Me! | Web Site | Blog
The EMC Blog (TM World)
Subscribe to Newsletter
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On Jun 29, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Goedderz, Jim wrote:



Group,
 
We’ve been discussing getting a database that would include all our products, 
and their status as pertains to safety, emc, etc.
 
The object is to be able to sort and see which products have missing 
certifications, all certifications, etc. and can also store the documents.
 
Can anyone suggest a program that is off the shelf for this use?
 
Thank you.
 
James Goedderz
Sr. Principal Engineer-Product Safety
Sensormatic Electronics, LLC
561.912.6378
 
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[PSES] EN61000-4-8

[Derek Walton]

Folks,


I have a question about Section 7.2 of this document. Specifically, what metal 
is permissible for use as a GRP.


The wording of the standard is:


The ground plane shall be a non-magnet metal sheet ( copper or aluminum ) of 
0.25 mm minimum thickness; other metals may be used but in this case they shall 
have at least 0.65 mm minimum thickness.


So, does this mean that magnetic metals can be used if they are over 0.65 mm? 
Presumably then the concern is saturation of very thin sheets?


Sincerely,


Derek Walton


L F Research

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Re: [PSES] EN61000-4-8

[Derek Walton]

Hi John,


Yes I agree it's open to interpretation  Can anyone on the list that 
partook please give me insight?


Thank you!


Derek.



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Tue, Jun 5, 2012 11:11 am
Subject: Re: EN61000-4-8


In message 8cf1146b86de5cb-1a0c-d...@webmail-stg-d14.sysops.aol.com, 
dated Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes:

So, does this mean that magnetic metals can be used if they are over 
0.65 mm?

It's just not clear. Perhaps someone who was involved in writing the 
standard can help.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

[Derek Walton]

Always one to buck the trend, I think these are reasonable prices

We are ripped off by standards bodies left right and centre

MHO

Derek 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2012, at 10:05 AM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com 
wrote:

 Would appear the real pirates are at UL and BSI
  
 Gary
  
 From: Don Gies [mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com] 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:25 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world
  
 Ahoy, me hearties!
  
 My view is that there are too many standards that are too cheap at this site, 
 and if ANSI were really powering it, they would be doing so from their own 
 site.  This site might as well hoist high the Jolly Roger, because it’s 
 occupied by pirates.
  
 Ex.:   UL 60950-1 for $20 instead of $422?
 BS EN 60950-1 for $20 instead of £161 to BSI Members, £322 to 
 non-members?
  
  
 DON GIES 
 ALCATEL-LUCENT
 SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
 BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
 600-700 Mountain Avenue
 Room 5B-104
 Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
 Phone: +1 908 582 5978
 Fax: +1 908 582 0582
 don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
 MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY
  
 From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] 
 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:29 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world
  
 Does anyone have experience with the subject standards vendor.
  
 Their prices are so low (NFPA 70-2011 for $25!?) it has activated all my “if 
 it’s too good to be true” warning systems.
  
 Regards,
 Lauren Crane
 KLA-Tencor
  
 -
 
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Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

[Derek Walton]

I'd counter with the price of one of the best EMC standards, mil std 461..

I like the price of that even better

Copying .pdfs does not cost in excess of a few dollars. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2012, at 12:08 PM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com 
wrote:

 Reasonable is a subjective word. If I’m comparing standard prices from one 
 source or the other the legitimate site is reasonable compared to other 
 legitimate  sites, but when I compare them to other printed matter including 
 my daughter medical texts, math texts, or worse e-books the costs are huge. I 
 can even get an actor to read me the book and still magnitudes of order 
 difference. So I always suffer sticker shock when I hunting for standards.  
  
 As I understand the price supports the standards activities – which is the 
 reason I buy from legitimate sources.
  
 Gary
  
 From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 9:38 AM
 To: McInturff, Gary
 Cc: don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world
  
 Always one to buck the trend, I think these are reasonable prices
  
 We are ripped off by standards bodies left right and centre
  
 MHO
  
 Derek 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On May 8, 2012, at 10:05 AM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com 
 wrote:
 
 Would appear the real pirates are at UL and BSI
  
 Gary
  
 From: Don Gies [mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com] 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:25 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world
  
 Ahoy, me hearties!
  
 My view is that there are too many standards that are too cheap at this site, 
 and if ANSI were really powering it, they would be doing so from their own 
 site.  This site might as well hoist high the Jolly Roger, because it’s 
 occupied by pirates.
  
 Ex.:   UL 60950-1 for $20 instead of $422?
 BS EN 60950-1 for $20 instead of £161 to BSI Members, £322 to 
 non-members?
  
  
 DON GIES 
 ALCATEL-LUCENT
 SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
 BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
 600-700 Mountain Avenue
 Room 5B-104
 Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
 Phone: +1 908 582 5978
 Fax: +1 908 582 0582
 don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
 MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY
  
 From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] 
 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:29 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world
  
 Does anyone have experience with the subject standards vendor.
  
 Their prices are so low (NFPA 70-2011 for $25!?) it has activated all my “if 
 it’s too good to be true” warning systems.
  
 Regards,
 Lauren Crane
 KLA-Tencor
  
 -
 
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 discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 emc-p...@ieee.org
 
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 -
 
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Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

[Derek Walton]

Finally at a PC rather than my iPhone. 


Reasonable has always been grating in the standards world. I have supported 
writing documents since the mid 80's, all at my own expense. In most instances 
I end up buying them too. The standards bodies must be the epitome of 
ineficiency if they can't operate on slimmer margins when folks do all their 
work for them and reproduction is almost free.


Sorry, but this has been a craw since I started in the whole industry.


I'd love to see the equivalent of standards shareware get started. Anyone 
interested in helping? 

Cheers,


Derek.




-Original Message-
From: McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com
To: 'Derek Walton' lfresea...@aol.com
Cc: 'don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com' don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com; 
'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 1:49 pm
Subject: RE: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world



Reasonable is a subjective word. If I’m comparing standard prices from one 
source or the other the legitimate site is reasonable compared to other 
legitimate sites, but when I compare them to other printed matter including my 
daughter medical texts, math texts, or worse e-books the costs are huge. I can 
even get an actor to read me the book and still magnitudes of order difference. 
So I always suffer sticker shock when I hunting for standards.  
 
As I understand the price supports the standards activities – which is the 
reason I buy from legitimate sources.
 

Gary

 

From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 9:38 AM
To: McInturff, Gary
Cc: don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

 

Always one to buck the trend, I think these are reasonable prices

 

We are ripped off by standards bodies left right and centre

 

MHO

 

Derek 

Sent from my iPhone


On May 8, 2012, at 10:05 AM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com 
wrote:


Would appear the real pirates are at UL and BSI
 

Gary

 

From: Don Gies [mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

 
Ahoy, me hearties!
 
My view is that there are too many standards that are too cheap at this site, 
and if ANSI were really powering it, they would be doing so from their own 
site.  This site might as well hoist high the Jolly Roger, because it’s 
occupied by pirates.
 
Ex.:   UL 60950-1 for $20 instead of $422?
BS EN 60950-1 for $20 instead of £161 to BSI Members, £322 to 
non-members?
 

 
DON GIES
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA  
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Fax: +1 908 582 0582
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY

 

From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

 
Does anyone have experience with the subject standards vendor.
 
Their prices are so low (NFPA 70-2011 for $25!?) it has activated all my “if 
it’s too good to be true” warning systems.
 
Regards,
Lauren Crane
KLA-Tencor
 
-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 
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Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com 
-

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Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

[Derek Walton]

Derek Walton mentioned MilStds - the cost is front-loaded by U.S. tax
dollars, and as the fed government has never been accused of having a profit
motive, there is no force from the 'invisible hand' (Adam Smith) driving
high standards costs.



So... are we saying that standards are made to make money for someone... or am 
I nieve thinking they were all about making sure products were evaluated 
properly for sale in a market place?



-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com
To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 1:21 pm
Subject: RE: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world


UL does not sell standards, it uses the entity incorporated as 'COMM 2000'
to sell equipment and standards. I would like to see some of the $millions
for annual stds buys go to sending more small-company reps to TCs and WGs.

Derek Walton mentioned MilStds - the cost is front-loaded by U.S. tax
dollars, and as the fed government has never been accused of having a profit
motive, there is no force from the 'invisible hand' (Adam Smith) driving
high standards costs.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Aldous,
Scott
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:29 AM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

As for UL at least, I would imagine that their not-for-profit status, which
is largely justified by their activities in creating and maintaining
standards, goes a long way in paying for those activities through the tax
breaks.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

 +1.970.492.2065 Direct
 +1.970.407.5872 Fax
 +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Oconnell
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 11:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

I have had conversations with a UL manager and a European IECEE member about
standards cost; and both people indicated zero level of concern. To quote
George Burns, No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible. 

I understand that there are costs to bear by the WGs and TCs that do this
stuff, but have not seen data that indicates any of the purchase cost is
used to directly support standards-development people.

For the U.S., some of the standards purchase cost can be mitigated on the
corporate tax (RD expenditures or deduct them as a current expense) - but
am not an accountant so am not certain of specific requirements.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Derek Walton
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 9:38 AM
To: McInturff, Gary
Cc: don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

Always one to buck the trend, I think these are reasonable prices

We are ripped off by standards bodies left right and centre

MHO

Derek 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2012, at 10:05 AM, McInturff, Gary
gary.mcintu...@esterline.com wrote:

Would appear the real pirates are at UL and BSI

Gary

From: Don Gies [mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

Ahoy, me hearties!

My view is that there are too many standards that are too cheap at this
site, and if ANSI were really powering it, they would be doing so from their
own site.  This site might as well hoist high the Jolly Roger, because its
occupied by pirates.

Ex.:   UL 60950-1 for $20 instead of $422?
BS EN 60950-1 for $20 instead of 161 to BSI Members, 322 to
non-members?


DON GIES 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Fax: +1 908 582 0582
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY

From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: e-standard.org The cheapest standards in the world

Does anyone have experience with the subject standards vendor. 

Their prices are so low (NFPA 70-2011 for $25!?) it has activated all my if
its too good to be true warning systems. 

Regards,
Lauren Crane
KLA-Tencor

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Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

[Derek Walton]

HI All,

I've watched may people speculate about PED's and what they MAY do, so I 
decided to go in the lab and make some measurements on my new iPad.


Obviously conducted is not an option, there's no power cord.

For radiated emissions to 1 GHz, the device is as quiet as a mouse. It 
was only a quick look see, so I set it up as if I were reading a book: I 
have no movies loaded yet.


Clearly there are other options, so if any one would like to chip in as 
to the way it should be running when tested let me know and I'll run 
when I get a second and post results.


I'm thinking either playing a game with lots of video or a High 
resolution movie.


Passive headset inserted also, cord unbundled.

Anything else?

Cheers,

Derek.
L F Research

On 3/23/2012 9:37 PM, Ken Javor wrote:

Here are the problems with that, from my original post., dated 18 March:

But even given all that work, how do we know that all iPads (not picking on
them, but just a name with which I'm familiar) are all the same?  Do they
all have exactly the same processors/RAM/what have you running at all the
same frequencies?  If a clock changes from one in which harmonics were
out-of-band to a radio but now they are in-band, there could be a problem.
Or if an IC has its internals modified, but is a form/fit /function drop-in
equivalent, that can change the emission profile as well, and the device
manufacturer wouldn't even know, because the IC manufacturer didn't change a
part number.

The fix here is EMI qualification testing of every variant that is sold, as
longs as the manufacturer is aware of any and all changes to his internals.

But even that isn't enough, because unlike regular aircraft avionics, these
PEDs are not under the control of the airline. They have likely been
dropped, immersed in or at least come in contact with liquids and the bottom
line is that an initial qualification of one unit does not necessarily
qualify all units sold over their usable lifetimes. One would have to look
at the design to see what specific EMI reduction methods were used, and how
they might be affected by ordinary misuse over a typical life.

We have to remember here that while ordinary EN55022 type qualification
protects the turf of licensed broadcasters, and thus their means of making a
living, with the aircraft COMM and NAV systems, we are putting lives and
property at risk.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Grasso, Charlescharles.gra...@echostar.com
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 21:51:35 +
To: Ken Javorken.ja...@emccompliance.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Conversation: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?
Subject: RE: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

Wouldn't it be safer to have manufacturers of portable devices pass the DO160
requirements?

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042...@vtext.com
(e) charles.gra...@echostar.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

Well, that's a humorous take on it, but it wouldn't have to be that way.

Also, it wouldn't take a scanner for every row. It takes a sensor (antenna)
for every few rows (recall we are looking primarily at 108-152 MHz, and that
means an antenna of significant length) to get usable sensitivity with a 50
Ohm input scanner). But a lot of sensors could be multiplexed into a single
scanner, with the scanner switching between different sensors continuously.
When a level in the problem frequency range is registered above some limit,
the system would check if that particular signal was at a frequency that was
going to be used on that approach or take-off. If not, it is a false alarm
and doesn't matter. If the signal frequency is close to that being used by
the various comm/nav devices, only then would the crew have to interact with
a scofflaw passenger.

With this system, it can be made clear that the problem isn't just a
bureaucratic snafu, but is a clear and present danger. As in, Ladies and
Gentlemen, in violation of aircraft safety rules, a personal electronic
device is a being operated in row 15, and it is interfering with our
navigation homing device, which guides the aircraft to a safe landing. We
must delay/abort our approach until this device is secured by the crew until
the aircraft has safely landed.

And shaming a passenger by delaying a take-off or landing could be a
powerful incentive for both the guilty party to never let it happen to
him/her again and the other passengers to resolve that they don't want to it
to happen to them, either.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmeng.grem...@cetest.nl
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:00:33 +0100
To: John 

Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

[Derek Walton]

If we set aside the aircraft interference issues, MHO is that for the 
take off and landing you really need folks in a state of get me the 
heck out of here should a problem arise, and part of that is being 
aware of surroundings and listening to the crew. Distracted by any means 
maybe not a good idea. More recently I've taken to requesting an isle 
seat because I want to be the first in my row to move...


Many times I've seen folks landing and taking off with sound deadening 
headphones on: Oblivious. I love mine, but time and a place for their use...


OTOH, because of the dislike for flying, perhaps the distraction would 
be better for some individuals.


As for Ed, I wonder, had the lady fallen into your basket, what they 
would have said at the check out... Or is that par for the course in 
California?


:-)

Derek.

On 3/19/2012 7:48 AM, Ed Price wrote:

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?


Given the above issues, it makes much more sense for the flying public to
remain unplugged for a few minutes at the beginning and end of every flight.

This isn't asking a lot.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


It may not be such a sacrifice for you, Ken, but you are not representative
of the general public. Drivers can't give up their cell phones and texting
devices, despite considerable fines. Look at the behavior of crowds in a
shopping mall; it's almost unusual to find someone who is NOT carrying on an
electronic conversation. A few weeks ago, I stopped at the side of an aisle
in a Wal-Mart as I noticed a walker/talker directly approaching me. I was
curious about at what distance she would notice me; instead, she almost fell
into my cart. Despite the physical surprise, and giving me a nasty look, she
didn't even pause her conversation.

As you said, it makes more sense, but the general public isn't agreeable to
even a slight inconvenience.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA


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Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

[Derek Walton]

Hi Chas,

as a frequent flier, that take off and taxi period can be many many 
minutes... and has taken hours at which time a PED would be most welcome.


Derek.

On 3/19/2012 10:30 AM, Grasso, Charles wrote:

Hello Ken - I agree with your position. Turning off edevices
for a few minutes in a flight is a minimal inconvenience at best.

However (and this is a little tongue in cheek!) if the
manufacturers of these devices either were made to comply with
DO160 emissions requirements for edevices specifically for use on
aircraft then those passengers that MUST read in those critical few
minutes can do so.

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042...@vtext.com
(e) charles.gra...@echostar.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:28 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

Yeah Ed, I get it - I'm an out-of-touch old fogey.  But in a sense it
doesn't matter as long as the FAA enforces a level playing field and all
airlines have the same rules. The flying public simply has to deal with it.

Look at what the TSA has done to airport security. Because of that, I drive
to customer locations within a 1.5 day driving radius rather than deal with
the hassle and indignity of the lines and procedures.

[If the FAA reversed course and allowed cell phone use on aircraft (which
wouldn't be a safety problem at all due to the spectral use being
out-of-band to any present day aircraft radio reception) by facilitating an
in-plane cell tower, I might have to expand my driving radius cut-off to
two days. Due to the inconvenience of listening to everyone yelling into
their phones about topics in which I have little interest...]

The numbers of flyers haven't dropped at all as the TSA has made the
procedures ever more time-consuming and invasive.

If the public can take the TSA, they can deal with the FAA unplugging them a
few minutes.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Ed Priceedpr...@cox.net
Organization: ESP Labs
Reply-To:edpr...@cox.net
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 05:48:13 -0700
To:emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?


Given the above issues, it makes much more sense for the flying public to
remain unplugged for a few minutes at the beginning and end of every flight.

This isn't asking a lot.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


It may not be such a sacrifice for you, Ken, but you are not representative
of the general public. Drivers can't give up their cell phones and texting
devices, despite considerable fines. Look at the behavior of crowds in a
shopping mall; it's almost unusual to find someone who is NOT carrying on an
electronic conversation. A few weeks ago, I stopped at the side of an aisle
in a Wal-Mart as I noticed a walker/talker directly approaching me. I was
curious about at what distance she would notice me; instead, she almost fell
into my cart. Despite the physical surprise, and giving me a nasty look, she
didn't even pause her conversation.

As you said, it makes more sense, but the general public isn't agreeable to
even a slight inconvenience.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA


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Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

[Derek Walton]

Hi Chas,

that's not too bad, even for Denver... My usual airport is O'Hare...

On 3/19/2012 11:20 AM, Grasso, Charles wrote:

Hi Derek - That's true..especially if there is a hangup at the gate or
on the taxi way. My recent experiences on flights were that the dark time
is about 20mins either side of the flight - not too bad.

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042...@vtext.com
(e) charles.gra...@echostar.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


-Original Message-
From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:37 AM
To: Grasso, Charles
Cc: Ken Javor; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

Hi Chas,

as a frequent flier, that take off and taxi period can be many many
minutes... and has taken hours at which time a PED would be most welcome.

Derek.

On 3/19/2012 10:30 AM, Grasso, Charles wrote:

Hello Ken - I agree with your position. Turning off edevices
for a few minutes in a flight is a minimal inconvenience at best.

However (and this is a little tongue in cheek!) if the
manufacturers of these devices either were made to comply with
DO160 emissions requirements for edevices specifically for use on
aircraft then those passengers that MUST read in those critical few
minutes can do so.

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042...@vtext.com
(e) charles.gra...@echostar.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:28 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

Yeah Ed, I get it - I'm an out-of-touch old fogey.  But in a sense it
doesn't matter as long as the FAA enforces a level playing field and all
airlines have the same rules. The flying public simply has to deal with it.

Look at what the TSA has done to airport security. Because of that, I drive
to customer locations within a 1.5 day driving radius rather than deal with
the hassle and indignity of the lines and procedures.

[If the FAA reversed course and allowed cell phone use on aircraft (which
wouldn't be a safety problem at all due to the spectral use being
out-of-band to any present day aircraft radio reception) by facilitating an
in-plane cell tower, I might have to expand my driving radius cut-off to
two days. Due to the inconvenience of listening to everyone yelling into
their phones about topics in which I have little interest...]

The numbers of flyers haven't dropped at all as the TSA has made the
procedures ever more time-consuming and invasive.

If the public can take the TSA, they can deal with the FAA unplugging them a
few minutes.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Ed Priceedpr...@cox.net
Organization: ESP Labs
Reply-To:edpr...@cox.net
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 05:48:13 -0700
To:emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New immunity testing by the FAA in the future?


Given the above issues, it makes much more sense for the flying public to
remain unplugged for a few minutes at the beginning and end of every flight.

This isn't asking a lot.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


It may not be such a sacrifice for you, Ken, but you are not representative
of the general public. Drivers can't give up their cell phones and texting
devices, despite considerable fines. Look at the behavior of crowds in a
shopping mall; it's almost unusual to find someone who is NOT carrying on an
electronic conversation. A few weeks ago, I stopped at the side of an aisle
in a Wal-Mart as I noticed a walker/talker directly approaching me. I was
curious about at what distance she would notice me; instead, she almost fell
into my cart. Despite the physical surprise, and giving me a nasty look, she
didn't even pause her conversation.

As you said, it makes more sense, but the general public isn't agreeable to
even a slight inconvenience.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA


-

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[PSES] brush motor noise

[Derek Walton]

Good day all,

I'd like to get some opinions on a motor I'm testing.

It's a 28 volt dc brush motor, with some EMI filtering, which has met 
DO-160 radiated emissions.


After retesting just now, it seems the motor is noisier now some tens of 
hours of testing later. I'm interested if this is normal?


In the past I have noticed brush noise get lower as brushes bed in, so 
this is little surprising.


Would anyone care to share their thoughts please?

Thanks,

Derek Walton
L F Research.

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[PSES] Field probe battery replacement

[Derek Walton]

Hi Folks,

I have a couple of field probes requiring battery replacement, can 
anyone suggest a 3rd party replacement service please...


Thanks,

Derek Walton.

-

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Re: [PSES] Protect An EMI Receiver

[Derek Walton]

I'm not sure if someone has covered this, but my biggest concern with 
damaging a receiver/SA is during the application of, or removal of power.


Specifically, if power is applied at the peak of a line cycle, a pulse 
almost equal to the peak line voltage couples through the internal LISN 
cap and into the receiver/SA. Most instruments are rated for only about 
+/- 30 volts, so a 300+ volt spike can be damaging.


I use the HP/Agilent transient limiter. But a 10 dB or 20 dB pad works 
just as well. I'm always nervous that the limiter may be clipping and 
giving me spurs to measure.


Having learned the hard way, I use an 8568B for conducted emissions, and 
save my 8566B for radiated emissions. Suggest you get a low cost 
SA/receiver for making CE measurements.


Happy holidays everyone.

Derek Walton.

On 12/27/2011 2:13 PM, doug...@gmail.com wrote:

The CISPR 16, 5 uH LISN.

Doug Powell

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

*From: * Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
*Date: *Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:40:13 -0600
*To: *EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*ReplyTo: * Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Protect An EMI Receiver

Clearly, under the conditions of hundreds of Amperes (what LISN was 
employed?) and large contactors, special attention is required. But 
the original post seemed to address more mundane, everyday situations, 
and that was the focus of my question.


Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261



*From: *doug...@gmail.com
*Reply-To: *doug...@gmail.com
*Date: *Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:27:43 +
*To: *Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Protect An EMI Receiver

Ken,Having worked power electronics for years, I have on occasion seen 
conducted emissions far exceed 107 dBuV.  Of course I have routinely 
measured emissions on mains of up to 100 amps and more recently up to 
700 amps.  Caution is warranted.  Also some of these products use AC 
large contractors and operating these devices while under load can 
cause huge inductive spikes on the LISN.- Doug Powell

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
*From: * Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
*Date: *Tue, 27 Dec 2011 12:03:23 -0600
*To: *EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*ReplyTo: * Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Protect An EMI Receiver
Gert provided an excellent post, but I am puzzled by the need for all 
this protection.  Granted I work in a screen room with either 
dedicated power or filtered power, but here is the question, nonetheless.


The conducted emission limit above 150 kHz is at or above 60 dBuV 
these days, correct?  So 30 - 40 dB of either internal or external 
broadband attenuation is available for use, while still providing a 
suitable noise floor for a typical ESU receiver, and that’s without 
using the pre-amplifier.  Further, in the case of the original post, 
preselection exists filtering out the noise below 150 kHz.


Why is there even a problem?

Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261



*From: *ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
g.grem...@cetest.nl

*Date: *Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:26:50 +0100
*To: *emc-p...@ieee.org
*Conversation: *Protect An EMI Receiver
*Subject: *RE: Protect An EMI Receiver

Happy new year to all, and hope you had a great Christmas !

Every receiver or spectrum analyzer used for conducted
measurements on a LISN or AMN to mains voltage
ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a dedicated surge/spike suppressor.
They are easy to purchase, but you can build one yourself
using a fast bidirectional 10V transient suppressor with low capacitance
when 0 Vdc over it (use your cap meter of read datasheet)

If the suppressor was mounted in a 50 ohm circuit you would have
problems with high frequencies, but if you connect this suppressor
parallel to the  ground resistor in a 20 dB T-type (NOT PI) attenuator
the performance is much better. The attenuator adds 20 dB to
the impulses and the transient suppressor cuts off everything above 10 V
The ground resistor in this configuration is slightly above 10 ohm 
(instead of 50 Ohm)

if I remember well, so the high frequency cut-off is way above 30 MHz.
Use  old fashioned coal resistors or smd film resistors (3 in series 
per value)

and mount in a small coaxial enclosure with 2 BNC's.
Make sure the input resistor allows for 500V each, unless you
live in the USA then 200 V is enough.
Voila your home brew transient suppressor with same specs
as commercial products.
Of course it needs calibration, and possibly adjustments
to meet your accreditation requirements.
My software (EMI-SCAN) allows for the transfer characteristics
(+/- 1dB)  to be corrected  in real time.

Gert Gremmen
ce-test qualified testing bv
Owner LinkedIn EMC experts group


*Van:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org

Re: [PSES] Lab Needed for 17025 Accredited Calibration for Davis Weather Station

[Derek Walton]

Hi Mac,

NVLAP requires that you follow Annex B of NIST HB-150. An accredited 
calibration is not the only way, just the lazy way.


Are you sure you need to record these parameters? If your standard has 
no limits, then quite possibly you could argue out of recording them. 
I'm not a fan of doing things just cos'


Cheers,

Derek.

On 12/19/2011 12:39 PM, Pettit, Ghery wrote:

Agreed that the instrument needs to be calibrated, but the degree of accuracy doesn't 
need to be NWS grade (IMHO).  What you are demonstrating is that the environmental 
conditions are within the range specified for the test.  And if you have enough control 
you shouldn't be pushing the edges, so it become less critical.  Just don't try ESD out 
in the open on a hot, humid day in the south.  Nor try it in the foothills above Denver 
at any time.  The atmospheric pressure will be too low.  Remember, the barometer must be 
calibrated to read absolute pressure, not pressure corrected to sea level 
like the weather guessers will give you.

Ghery S. Pettit


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 10:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Lab Needed for 17025 Accredited Calibration for Davis Weather 
Station

Transcat will cal stuff that does these parameters and does 17025. RH, temp,
and atm pressure xdcrs are common stuff. What is wrong with these cal-lab
people?

Possible to remove transducers/sensors and send to cal lab to do tables?
Most Davis systems are not NWS-grade, and the rated accuracies could allow a
company verification process where altitude and temp correction is applied
to local METAR data, temp sensor is verified with your recently calibrated
instrument used in Type Tests, and the RH sensor can be verified using the
chemical kits or calc using dry/wet bulb readings.

Do not have a weather station at place of employment, but have several
similar sensors connected to data logger to monitor lab conditions during
all tests, and have never had any problem submitting this data to auditors.

Brian

-Original Message-

On 12/19/11, Elliott Mac-FME001fme...@motorolasolutions.com  wrote:

All
Our cal guys are telling me that they are having a hard time finding a
lab that can do 17025 accredited calibrations for our Davis Weather
Monitor that we use on our OATS to measure temp / humidity / and
barometric pressure during our testing.

Any suggestions?

Best regards,
Mac Elliott

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

[Derek Walton]

Hi Doug,

I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.

More examples of Nanny state control.

Cheers,

Derek.

On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:

Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsafety/turkeys/ 




 doug powell

-Original Message- From: Pete Perkins
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

PSNet,

Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

What's the latest?

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org


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Re: IEEE PSES / Costs / Explanations

[Derek Walton]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for this background, it helps understand where the IEEE are 
involved. While it sounds like  some good changes have happened in how 
the main IEEE looks at Society's, it highlights significant effort is 
still required to get in line with efficient operating.

At the EMC show I'll discuss this further with the Society folks.

Keep up the good work!

Sincerely

Derek.

Jim Bacher wrote:
 I wanted to fill in some details on how IEEE Society's work as most 
 members
 are not aware of the details.

 Society membership funds in general do not support the running of the 
 IEEE.
 The societies do have to pay for IEEE resources that they use (we like to
 call it the IEEE TAX). In general societies are run as small non 
 profit businesses.
 So we are required to do all the things a normal business would have 
 to do. We
 have to have a Board Of Directors (BoD), accounting, voting, and on 
 and on. The
 IEEE provides the required accounting functions for the society. They take
 care of sending out the mailings for the voting and count the returned 
 votes. They
 write checks and pay our bills.  They maintain our bank accounts. The 
 more members
 we have the less the IEEE TAX burden. Some of the society funds goes 
 to cover the
 cost of the TAB meetings. The way society's were taxed has been 
 changed twice over
 the last 6 years. It is now in our favor, which it was not for the 
 first 4 years.

 As part of having a BoD we are required to have in person meetings. 
 The society
 has to cover the cost of the meeting rooms for those meetings. We do 
 every thing
 we can to minimize the travel costs for our BoD members and to 
 minimize the cost
 to the society to hold the meetings. In fact one of the comments made 
 was that
 our society was too frugal (I do not understand why that is a bad thing).

 Once you get past the basic costs of running a non profit society, the 
 rest of
 the funds are typically used to fund things like the Distinguished 
 Lecturer (DL)
 programs.  Some of the funds go into what is called reserves. A 
 society is required
 to have enough reserves to cover 50% of their yearly expenses. At this 
 time we do
 not have the funds to support such a DL program. Some of the bigger 
 societies use
 the extra funds to send BoD members out to other countries to promote 
 new chapters
 (we do not do that). Some societies have employees, such as full time 
 editors for
 their journals and publications.

 The emc-pstc list will survive even if the society does not. Even 
 though the people
 who started the effort to create the society started also started the 
 email list as
 part of the effort, the IEEE HQ understands the value of the the 
 emc-pstc list and
 will consider it as part of their current humanitarian programs. The 
 IEEE has never
 billed the society for any costs of running the email list. We do 
 administer our own
 list, but have on occasion required their help in fixing issues. 
 Servers are not free.
 They do require administration, replacement, upgrades, electricity, 
 etc. If a server
 starts having a lot of use sometimes some of its work has to be spread 
 to other
 servers. The IEEE does backup the servers and has backup servers off 
 site for disaster
 recovery. The free list servers shove a lot of advertisement in 
 every email, which
 we do not do. By the way the last time I checked with the IEEE, the 
 emc-pstc list was
 the busiest list on the server so they are well aware of it. Consider 
 we have about
 1,000 members and about 25 emails a day, which makes about 25,000 
 emails that have
 to be processed for it daily.

 As others have said we have not done a lot of advertising/promotion of 
 the society or
 its symposium on the email list. Most organization would have done so 
 on a monthly
 bases. My hopes are that you have gotten enough value out of it to 
 consider supporting
 the society. Either by being a member or going to the symposium. I 
 know the email
 list has been a significant help to me and a resource I do not want to 
 lose. In a way
 even responding to any email on this list server is supporting the 
 society.

 TAB is all of the society and council presidents and should not be 
 confused with IEEE
 HQ. TAB will have to vote on what ever is proposed by TMC and the 
 Society Review
 Committee (SRC). As my term as PSES President ends on December 31 of 
 2009, the next
 PSES society president will be the one who will argue in the societies 
 behalf at the
 meeting. I intend to be at the meeting when the motion makes it to the 
 TAB floor for voting.
 As this is an open meeting any of you who would like to say a few 
 words can attend the
 meeting and speak up. There are other societies that will stand behind 
 us as well.

 When we go into the review process we need to be able to identfy the 
 actions we did to
 attempt to get to the 1,000 membership number. I am sure that if we 
 did not at least send
 a note to the emc-pstc list that would be a 

Re: New Product Proposal

[Derek Walton]

Hi Ted,

now you knew this was coming

We discuss regulation, that INCLUDES OVER REGULATION. List server 
members contribute to committees that determine regulations and hearing 
too many Nanny state opinions sways the regulation process. Thats what I 
meant when I stated you repeat it until you believe it.

Your statement about potentially unsafe product is loaded. Water is 
potentially unsafe, but we would die without it.

I'd further like to point out that uncomfortable topics need as much 
discussion as comfortable ones... Those that don't like can always hit 
delete.

Sincerely,

Derek Walton.

Ted Eckert wrote:
 This list is to address regulations regarding EMC and product safety.  I 
 agree with Lee that the topic is straying too far from the central purpose of 
 the list.

 I have no objection to the free discussion of various topics.  Personally, I 
 rather be exposed to as many views and as much information as possible to 
 allow me to make an informed view.  However, there are members of this list 
 who may feel uncomfortable when some topics unrelated to EMC or product 
 safety are discussed.  The list is best served by maintaining a larger 
 membership that is willing to contribute.  

 Even the original post in this series may be considered outside of the core 
 intent of the list.  The laser in question is clearly being abused.  Somebody 
 went through some work to create a potentially dangerous product.  There are 
 regulations regarding the use of Class 3 lasers and the product for sale is 
 sold without the approvals, documentation and warnings to the user.  I rather 
 see people discuss what regulations apply to such a product and how to sell 
 it appropriately, if at all.

 Ted Eckert
 Compliance Engineer
 Microsoft Corporation
 ted.eck...@microsoft.com

 The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
 employer.



 -Original Message-
 From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] 
 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:57 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: New Product Proposal

 Hi Lee,

 I disagree: this list addresses regulations, and discussing excessive 
 regulation is totally appropriate. You cant say things are bad without 
 hearing the opposite side of the argument.

 Sincerely,

 Derek.

 PS, see you in Austin?

 Lee Hill wrote:
   
 I feel this topic is getting outside of the intended purpose of the
 list-server

 Lee

 -Original Message-
 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton
 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:33 AM
 To: James, Chris
 Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: Re: New Product Proposal

 Hi Chris,

 We all know banning doesn't work, history has shown that: and the Darwin 
 awards showcase gene pool removal.  I feel safer in Texas, or 
 Arizona, where I know if someone tries a stunt with a weapon that 1/2 
 the resteraunt will stop him/her before a carnage will occur. I no 
 longer feel safe like that in Manchester or Warrington where I grew up. 
 I've lived in these places, so thats my experience.

 Not trying to advocate guns etc, just stress banning doesn't work. That 
 just means the bad guys/gals have the things being banned.

 So to answer your question, yes, I tolerate some idiots. Better one or 
 two crazys being dealt with than the rest of us becoming vanilla... Go 
 after the crazies.

 Cheers,

 Derek.

 James, Chris wrote:
   
 
 So you are happy to have zip guns, modified air weapons firing live
 rounds and the like on the street too - seems like this device would be
 equally good for mugging someone.

 As for the other - the rules are there to protect the majority,
 hopefully preventing fires, explosions and electrocutions in domestic
 situations - like you I personally find it an encroachment but unlike
 many I understand the need for competency when undertaking such work and
 knowing ones limitations.

 I have been in houses where mains cable has been nailed along the
 skirting board and round door frames to feed wall additional sockets in
 rooms, or in one case a power shower - that owner was actually proud of
 such handi-work.

 C


 -Original Message-
 From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] 
 Sent: 05 February 2009 15:00
 To: James, Chris
 Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: Re: New Product Proposal

 hi All,

 I guess I'm used to being Politically incorrect, it's what life's 
 experiences teaches me to be.. So.

 I'm all in favor of devices like these. I DO NOT believe in baning 
 things unless absolutely avoidable. I don't think that the majority 
 should be punished for the stupidity of the few.

 My birth country was England, where it's absolutely incredible how such 
 a country has been clamped down. You cant install your own gas, or by 
 now electrical appliances by yourself without running legal risks. 
 Actions like restricting experimenting tools

EN55022

[Derek Walton]

Hi all,

Can anyone advise on the implementation dates for EN55022:2006 (w/ 
Addendum for emission measurements 1GHz) for the EU, Taiwan, and 
Australia?  My understanding is that enforcement will begin 4/1/2010 for 
VCCI and 1/1/2011 for KCC.

Thank you in advance.

Derek Walton,
L F Research
 

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Re: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Derek Walton]

HI Larry,

was this really required, in 17025, or is your assessor/accrediting body 
asking?

If you are following a standard calibration method, I'm not sure you are 
REQUIRED for have a procedure.

That said,I believe strongly in writing detailed work instructions ( 
what we call them), photographs really really help.

Thoughts?

Derek.

Larry Stillings wrote:
 One other thing to add to this thread (as we just went through an audit) is
 you will need to write a test procedure for the calibration (preferably with
 pictures of the calibration setup).

 Larry Stillings 

 -Original Message-
 From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
 Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:45 AM
 To: emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

 I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable to a
 National Standards group such as NIST in the US.

 Bob Heller
 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
 Tel:  651- 778-6336
 Fax:  651-778-6252
 ==



  Spencer, David   
  H
  David.Spencer@xe  To 
  rox.com  cmander...@micron.com 
  Sent by:  emc-p...@ieee.org 
  emc-p...@ieee.org  cc 

Subject 
  12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration   
  AM









 Chris,

 I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never messed
 with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.

 As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical in
 house.All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier performance,
 etc etc .  But in reality those calibrations are just verifications.
 To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network impedance
 analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to purchase.

 Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll need a
 process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
 respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
 measurement uncertainty.
 The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
 specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR  losses.

 As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any ISO17025
 test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
 calibration.


 Regards

 David Spencer
 EMC Engineer
 Xerox Corp.

   From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
   cmander...@micron.com
   Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
   To: emc-p...@ieee.org
   Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration



   I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
   other things and I have few questions about that.
   1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
   If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold
   half-ring cores?
   2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
   If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
   documentation will they want to see?
   If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US I
   can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably Western
   US to save on shipping)?


   Thanks,
   Chris


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Re: Mobile Phones in EMC Labs

[Derek Walton]

Hi all,

just a thought If you're an accredited lab you are supposed to 
evaluate your working environment: I'd include Cell phones in this.

Now, I hate banning things, so my first thought is that whoever is 
running testing should know about mobile Transmitters, from Door openers 
to cell phones. This is a topic I always discuss when Assessing.

Just because things are banned doesn't mean they will not be present.

In my lab I use the 4 module HP system, and Sucoflex cables. I do not 
see signals related to the cell phone in this system. I did when I used 
low cost cables. I am not advocating the used of a particular brand, 
just good cables.

The power to the four modules is passed through a Xantrex super 
isolation transformer also: just cos'.

Seasons greetings,

Derek Walton
L F Research

Pettit, Ghery wrote:

 I would. Shielding of receivers isn’t perfect. We have signs banning 
 them in our labs. Don’t know how well enforced it is. J Guess I’ll 
 have to check the next time I do a quality audit. J J

 Ghery Pettit

 

 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *Luke Turnbull
 *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:22 AM
 *To:* emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* Mobile Phones in EMC Labs

 Hi all,

 Should we ban the use of mobile phones in our test lab (i.e. outside 
 our test chambers, but in the same EM environment as the sig gens, 
 spectrum analysers, receivers etc.)?

 Opinions with reasons would be greatly appreciated.

 Thanks,

 Luke Turnbull

 Conekt is a trading division of TRW Limited

 Registered in England, No. 872948

 Registered Office Address: Stratford Road, Solihull B90 4AX

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Re: Cables On The Floor

[Derek Walton]

HI Ed,

you should know that managers are full of hot air,and are therefore 
lighter than engineers and techs

Derek

PS, folks, this was meant as a joke...

Price, Edward wrote:
  
  

 
 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of
 *Gert Gremmen
 *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:23 PM
 *To:* Pettit, Ghery; Luke Turnbull; emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* RE: Mobile Phones in EMC Labs

  Of course once your gold-plated coaxial connectors wear out, and
 your cables became flat from standing on it,
 you will see all kind of spurious outdoor signals in  your result.

 Gert Gremmen 

  

 Although I am naturally pessimistic, I am not superstitious. However, 
 how else to explain the near magical capabilities of a cable laying on 
 the floor to attract human feet? 

 If I lay a BNC or SMA cable (assuming 1/4 cross section by 10 foot 
 exposure length) onto the working area (about 16' by 12'), the cable 
 occupies only 30/27,468, or only about 0.11% of the floor area. 
 The typical human feet cover 4 by 12 by 2, or 96 square inches. So 
 there are 27,468/48, or  286, places where you can step in the room.

 You would think that the odds of stepping on the cable would be 285 to 
 1. But from experience, as you talk with a visitor in the chamber, how 
 many times have you looked down to see one of their feet planted 
 squarely across a cable? Indeed, it's not all that remarkable for a 
 visitor to managed coverage with both feet. Or to amble along the 
 cable as if it were some kind of guidance wire!

 Some programs attract a disproportionate amount of official 
 (management) visitors, and it was during one of those that I 
 implemented my experiment with sacrificial cables. After walking each 
 visitor into my chamber, while repeating the mantra of please be 
 careful not to step on a cable and pointing at a cable so that they 
 understand what a cable looks like, I began to notice the mathematical 
 anomaly of non-random foot placement.

 I decided to test my suspicions, so, as we moved into conducted 
 susceptibility testing, I laid four BNC cables around the chamber 
 working area. (These were cables accumulated during the radiated 
 emission test; cables which had endured numerous verified foot 
 stomps.) Then I began watching the visitor pattern.

 I wish I had kept accurate data, for I'm sure that I could have 
 produced a very important and controversial paper (that could have 
 given me a decent vacation for its presentation). However, I am left 
 with only the subjective memory of those trials. I concluded that 
 cables have some kind of unexplained power to strongly direct the 
 human mind to place a foot over a cable whenever the physical 
 opportunity is available.

 Although I never conducted further trials, I have speculated as to the 
 attractive mechanism that causes this. I wonder if it may somehow be 
 related to the technique by which cows are kept off of a roadway (cows 
 will not cross a couple of parallel painted stripes on the ground). 
 True, this would be an inverse relationship, as cables attract the 
 foot, but I think I'm really onto something important here.

 BTW, the test cables were all later found to be in acceptable 
 condition, and were returned to service. I must assume that either I 
 am being too alarmist about the dangers of stepping on a cable, or, my 
 management just leaves no lasting impression on physical reality. More 
 studies are needed!

  

 */Ed Price/*
 *ed.pr...@cubic.com* blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com* WB6WSN*
 *NARTE Certified EMC Engineer*
 *Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab*
 *Cubic Defense Applications*
 *San Diego, CA  USA*
 *858-505-2780*
 */Military  Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty/*
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Solar Coupling probes

[Derek Walton]

Good morning all,

I was wondering if anyone had experience with using Solars 9616-1 and 
9616-2 coupling probes.

Maybe of line responses would be best, they certainly would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Derek Walton

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Re: GIFS on the EMC-PSTC list

[Derek Walton]

Not to be antagonistic, but I'm of the opposite opinion to Peter. I'm 
not sure in any aspect of my personal and business practice to I want to 
work to the lowest common denominator.

I have found it frustrating many times that its not easy to add a sketch 
or a document. So, any step forward would be good. Redirecting to 
somewhere else is, in my opinion, not good

Regardless, love the list and it's members!

Derek Walton
L F Research.

Peter Tarver wrote:
 I oppose posts in anything other than plain text.  The 
 expansion to html formatted posts has already led to odd 
 font usage, unnecessarily large font sizes and other things 
 I'd rather not see.  Adding tables and graphics will only 
 lead further down a slipper slope and pollute messages with 
 wiz-bang and poorly formatted and nonstandard html mail.  
 If such tings are important to a post, a reference to a web 
 page should be sufficient (people have had web browsers 
 from the ancient days *before* 1999).

 Peter Tarver, PE
 ptar...@ieee.org
 the curmudgeonly Luddite and technological apostate

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EN 13309:2009

[Derek Walton]

Good day folks,

I've been asked to quote testing to EN 13309:2009, but I cant find 
record of it in my usual places ( BSi )

Can anyone point me where I can get a copy, or a draft version please.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
L F Research

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Re: EN 13309:2009

[Derek Walton]

Hi Everyone,

thank you for the valuable insight

Alas, since I have to work, I cant be on all committees

But now I have a start at least!

Sincerely,

Derek Walton

John Woodgate wrote:
 In message 4900d68f.2090...@aol.com, dated Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Derek 
 Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes:


 I've been asked to quote testing to EN 13309:2009, but I cant find 
 record of it in my usual places ( BSi )

 Can anyone point me where I can get a copy, or a draft version please.

 BSI probably hasn't published it yet, since it's dated 2009! It's also 
 unlikely to come into effect until 2012, but manufacturers may well 
 want to design now to meet it. But if they want to do that at such an 
 early stage, they should join the relevant BSI or CEN committee and 
 then they would get the drafts legitimately!

 Since it has probably passed all its voting, you can't claim a copy in 
 order to comment constructively on it. However, as a test house, you 
 might be able to persuade BSI to let you have a copy of a draft, 
 especially the Draft for Public Comment. Do you know about the new BSI 
 scheme:

 http://drafts.bsigroup.com/

 If you look at the catalogue entry for BS EN 13309:2000, near the end 
 it says 'Committee B/513' . Even if you don't have 'member access' to 
 BSI ecommittees, you can go to the B/513 page and email (probably) the 
 Secretary from it. Go to:

 http://ecommittees.bsi-global.com/bsi/controller

 Click on 'Building and Civil engineering committees', and you get a 
 long list. Click on 'B/513' and on that page, click on 'Contact support'.

 I've written all this out, because it's a general guide to everyone 
 about finding information on an unpublished standard through the BSI 
 web sites.

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Re: Class A antenna distance

[Derek Walton]

Hi All,

Since were in the process of buying 5m chamber this thread caught my eye.

I checked with the FCC, and they point to this paragraph in part 15.31:

(f) To the extent practicable, the device under test shall be measured 
at the distance specified in
the appropriate rule section. The distance specified corresponds to the 
horizontal distance between the
measurement antenna and the closest point of the equipment under test, 
support equipment or
interconnecting cables as determined by the boundary defined by an 
imaginary straight line periphery
describing a simple geometric configuration enclosing the system 
containing the equipment under test.
The equipment under test, support equipment and any interconnecting 
cables shall be included within this
boundary.
(1) At frequencies at or above 30 MHz, measurements may be performed at 
a distance
other than what is specified provided: measurements are not made in the 
near field except where it can be
shown that near field measurements are appropriate due to the 
characteristics of the device; and it can be
demonstrated that the signal levels needed to be measured at the 
distance employed can be detected by the
measurement equipment. Measurements shall not be performed at a distance 
greater than 30 meters
unless it can be further demonstrated that measurements at a distance of 
30 meters or less are impractical.
When performing measurements at a distance other than that specified, 
the results shall be extrapolated
to the specified distance using an extrapolation factor of 20 dB/decade 
(inverse linear-distance for field
strength measurements; inverse-linear-distance-squared for power density 
measurements).

I would be very concerned if requirements were written that said only 10 
metre chambers or OATS were acceptable...

Best regards,

Derek Walton
L F Research


Bill Stumpf wrote:
 Both answers are correct, but also the term Fully Anechoic Chamber 
 raises a flag.  The FCC does not allow the use of fully anechoic 
 chambers for emissions testing (30MHz - 1000MHz).  Reference ANSI 
 C63.4(2003) Section 5.
  
 CISPR 22 does not allow the use of fully anechoic chambers (Section 
 10.4)  (CISPR 16.1.4) 
  
 All test sites must meet vertical and horizontal theoretical Site 
 Attenuation.
  
 Bill Stumpf
 
 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *Pettit, Ghery
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:06 PM
 *To:* Rudd, Adam; emcp...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* RE: Class A antenna distance

 Note that the allowance for shorter measurement distances in CISPR 22 
 is for small devices, too.  And, as noted, is limited to Class B 
 devices.  Plus, some regulators do not allow this option to be used 
 and insist on 10 meter data.

  

 Ghery Pettit

  

  

 

 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *Rudd, Adam
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:59 AM
 *To:* emcp...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* RE: Class A antenna distance

  

 47CFR 15.31(f)(1) allows measurements at distances other than 
 specified and details the extrapolation factor.

 http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr15.31.htm

  

 EN 55022 Section 10.2.1 has a note that specifically makes an 
 allowance for Class B devices to be measured at 3m.  I tend to think 
 the detail of Class B being included and Class A being omitted from 
 the note has significance.

 *Best Regards,*

 *Adam Rudd*
 Engineer (EMC)
 NCR Corporation, RHSS
 Duluth, GA
 (770) 495-2825

 

 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *emcp...@aol.com
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:26 PM
 *To:* emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* (no subject)

  

 Dear members,

  

 I have a question on the use of a 3 meter fully anechoic chamber.

  

 Can this 3 meter chamber be used to qualify a product for FCC or CISPR 
 class A, since the required test distance is 10 meter?

  

 Please provide any reference to paragraphs in the standards. Your 
 responses are appreciated.

  

 Thanks,

  

 Timothy A. Pierce

 Tap Engineering, Inc.

  

  

  

  

 

 Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse 
 Fantasy Football today 
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Re: Seeking labs to test to EN55020

[Derek Walton]

Hi Pat,

Yes, NVLAP is under NIST.

A good contact there is Brad Moore.

Brad Moore brad.mo...@nist.gov

Cheers,

Derek Walton
L F Research

pat.law...@slpower.com wrote:

 Hi John,

 The link you gave doesn't give you the NVLAP web site, but just a 
 domain name holder.
 NVLAP appears to be operated by NIST, and you can find information 
 about it on the NIST website:
 http://ts.nist.gov/
 More specifically:
 http://ts.nist.gov/Standards/scopes/programs.htm

 Pat Lawler
 EMC Engineer
 SL Power Electronics Corp.

 jrbar...@iglou.com wrote on 07/26/2008 04:15:39 AM:
 snip
 
  I took a quick look at the NVLAP web page
  http://www.nvlap.org/
  But I don't find any place there, where you can easily search for labs
  that NVLAP has redited to certain standards.
 
  Thanks!
  John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, NCT, ESDC Eng, ESDC Tech, PSE, SM IEEE
  dBi Corporation
  jrbar...@iglou.com
  http://www.dbicorporation.com/

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Re: Another Cancer Scare?

[Derek Walton]

Not wanting to appear silly, or spread rumors, but some of the thinking 
behind the potential for EM cancers was explained to me as follows:

Cancers are mutant forms of normal cells. Such mutations occur when the 
cell reproduces. That process is more likely in the young, or where 
tissues are repairing. This is separate from cell damage through heating 
most often being considered when power levels are discussed.

Part of the reproduction process is un-encoding the cell structure from 
the DNA, and that is influenced by fields which if great enough cause 
non intended cell structure. Usually the fields are magnetic because 
they penetrate deeper into skin tissue.

Exposing non developing cells to fields would obviously never exhibit 
problems. A huge level of research to date has done just that...

Other research is specifically looking at the influence on developing 
cells, I'm not sure yet how much of that is public domain.

Again, I stress this comes from an aging guy... I may be remembering 
incorrectly, or understood the explanation wrong.

We live in interesting times.

Cheers,

Derek Walton
L F Research


Lothar Schmidt wrote:

 Just for clarification,

 Cell phones with GSM technology transmit with 2W burst power @ 850MHz 
 and with 1W burst power @1900 MHz

 CDMA and WCDMA technology uses 200mW output power.

 Regarding the influence of cell phones to a human being. My opinion 
 is, that there are millions of cell phones used for so many years by a 
 huge number of people and many of them seem to have the phone glued to 
 the ear.

 If there is any impact we should have seen a significant increase in 
 certain areas like cancer. This didn’t happen therefore I believe the 
 influence is close to none.

 Best Regards

 *Lothar Schmidt**
 *Director Regulatory  Antenna Services

 *CETECOM Inc.*
 411 Dixon Landing Road
 Milpitas, CA 95035

 Phone +1 (408) 586 6214
 Fax +1 (408) 586 6299
 email lothar.schm...@cetecomusa.com 
 mailto:lothar.schm...@cetecomusa.com

 //This e-mail may contain proprietary, privileged and confidential 
 information for the sole use of the named intended recipient. Any 
 review or distribution of this e-mail by any party other than the 
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 you are not the intended recipient, please delete all copies and 
 immediately contact the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, 
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 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *Fred Townsend
 *Sent:* Friday, July 25, 2008 11:37 AM
 *To:* Tang, George
 *Cc:* Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group
 *Subject:* Re: Another Cancer Scare?

 George, I'm no medical expert either but I think I understand a few 
 laws of physics, Gauss's law, and Maxwell's equations in particular. 
 If there is to be any effect on the human body, surely it must be 
 directly from the magnetism or indirectly from the induced currents. 
 To the best of my knowledge there never has been a demonstrated effect 
 on the human body by magnetism. That leaves induced currents.

 Many ham and commercial handy talkies (HT) can put out 5 watts. When 
 used, the rubber ducky runs right by the face or ears. From personal 
 experiments I can say looking directly at the sun causes a noticeable 
 heating effect while using my 5 watt HT @ 146MHz at night doesn't. The 
 skin effect (not to be confused with human skin) means that almost 
 none of the energy penetrates the skull at 146 MHz. If it doesn't 
 penetrate, how can it cause an effect?

 As you point out modern cell phones put out much less power (100 mW). 
 Since the skin effect is much greater at cell phone frequencies, I 
 don't think there is a snowball's chance of a cell phone causing 
 damage to any part of the body with the possible exception of the 
 eyes. There is anecdotal evidence that looking at a functional cell 
 phone while driving can cause injury and even death to the whole body.

 Fred Townsend
 DC to Light

 Tang, George wrote:

 My personal opinion is that the research findings MAY have some valid points, 
 however, the data they have is way out-dated.  We know that in the late '80s, 
 people use mobile phones that put out several watts of radiated power.  In 
 the early '90s when cell phones were just starting to appear on the market, 
 most of them were still putting out more than 1 watt of radiated power.  We 
 have heard of technicians who worked on LAN equipment while talking on the 
 cell phone, and the cell phone radiation induced data error in the Ethernet 
 lines.  Those were the days when the cell phone transmitted too much power.  
 In the last few years, the goal of achieving longer talk time, thus lower 
 power consumption, and the use of low voltage electronics due to the widely 
 incorporation of sub-micron

Re: Another Cancer Scare?

[Derek Walton]

Hi Fred,

I stress my disclaimers... this was explained to me. Had I done the 
research, there would be no disclaimers

Had I got your answers, I may also be a very rich man

Sincerely,

Derek.

Fred Townsend wrote:
 I agree with John but I want to further challenge several of Derek's 
 statements.

 Derek Walton wrote:



 Part of the reproduction process is un-encoding the cell structure 
 from the DNA, and that is influenced by fields which if great enough 
 cause non intended cell structure. Usually the fields are magnetic 
 because they penetrate deeper into skin tissue.


 What kind of field? What is your source?

 On your theory of developing cells why are the researchers 
 concentrating on the relatively stable gray matter as this reference 
 suggests? Skin cells are reproducing all the time, have shown 
 sensitivity to uv, and are closer to the source.

 Fred Townsend
 DC to Light


 John Woodgate wrote:

 In message 488a3037.4010...@aol.com, dated Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Derek 
 Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes:


 Part of the reproduction process is un-encoding the cell structure 
 from the DNA, and that is influenced by fields which if great enough 
 cause non intended cell structure.


 Allegedly. You have assumed what some people are trying to prove.

 Usually the fields are magnetic because they penetrate deeper into 
 skin tissue.


 I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean 'Researchers have 
 mostly used magnetic fields in experiments because they penetrate 
 tissue more than electric fields do'?

 Life on this planet has evolved in the presence of a fairly strong 
 magnetic field (about 40 A/m +/-15 A/m). Unless something is 
 completely still, there are induced electric currents as well as the 
 magnetic field.


 Exposing non developing cells to fields would obviously never 
 exhibit problems. A huge level of research to date has done just 
 that...


 You mean, a huge amount of research on dead things? In live animals 
 and plants, cells are dividing all the time.


 Other research is specifically looking at the influence on 
 developing cells, I'm not sure yet how much of that is public domain.


 There have been reports of observed effects, but none seem to have 
 convinced the peer groups. Yet?

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Another Cancer Scare?

[Derek Walton]

Does anyone know more about the research spoken about in the BBC news 
artical?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7523109.stm

Is it really new unpublisged research or just rehashing the old?

Sincerely,

Derek Walton L F Research

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Re: Low Loss Coax Cable

[Derek Walton]

Hi Brian,

just something for you to think about. I faced the same problem in my 
lab when starting out testing at 200 v/m. We have since pushed this 
quite a bit higher and implemented a few things to get these higher levels:

First, it's relatively easy to make up cable losses at low signal 
levels, and good shielded cables are easy to find. However, I had a 
cable run of about 20 feet to get to the antenna and through the room 
wall. I found the bulkheads and even the cable would get warm during 
testing. Also there were several notches in the drive level from the sig 
gen that should not really be there. So my first step was to move the 
high frequency amps ( 8 to 18 GHz ) inside the room. To start with I 
used a sucoflex cable to feed the signal in to the rack we had these in.

That works well, but it''s ungainly. So I bought an optical GP-IB link 
and moved both the signal source and the power meter into the chamber 
too. All this resides in a low height rack on LARGE wheels, the TWT's 
are very heavy. I used a short length of Flexible Waveguide to hook up 
the horn, it's long enough to change polarity.

We are in the process of doing this with the 1 to 8 GHz Amps, the cable 
will only be a few feet long. Using all horns for transmitting, I've not 
observed significant influence of the racks located behind the antenna.

Sincerely,

Derek Walton
L F Research

Kunde, Brian wrote:

 How would you rank the flexibility of the following cables? (so I an 
 get a comparison)

 *CABLE TYPE (Insertion Loss per ft at 10Ghz)*

 * *

 UFB311A (.15)

 LMR 600 (.17)

 LMR 400 (.27)

 UFA210A (.27)

 Gore PhaseFlex (.27)

 RG-214 (.47)

 RG-393 (.35)

 EM40 (.36)

 The UFB cable has the best insertion loss of the bunch but it is very 
 expensive. LMR 400 cables are cheap but I’ve never seen any so I don’t 
 know if they are flexible. I have RG-214 cable and I find it ok to 
 work with so a comparison to RG214 would be good. I would guess that 
 LMR 600 is a tow rope. The UFA210A cable has similar loss compared to 
 LMR 400 but only half the diameter, so I guess much more flexible.

 I cannot get the Micro-Coax website Cable Wizard to work. When I get 
 to the part where I select a cable, I get a Server Error. So I have 
 not been able to see any prices for their cable assemblies.

 What other cable types/sources should I be looking at?

 Thanks to all for your help. I know this can seem like a very small 
 issue but I have no experience with high frequency low loss cable. A 
 fraction of a db can make a huge difference in our application 
 (radiated immunity up to 6Ghz) so I’m really dancing a line between 
 insertion loss vs flexibility.

 The other Brian

 

 *From:* emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] *On Behalf Of 
 *Grace Lin
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 16, 2008 7:23 AM
 *To:* emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Subject:* Re: Low Loss Coax Cable

 Hi Brian,

 MegaPhase carries low loss cables 
 (http://www.megaphase.com/test06.html). Several commercial labs in the 
 northeast of the US use its cable. Order EM40 for flexibility even 
 you don't need performance up to 40GHz. EM18 is not flexible and too 
 difficult to connect to instrument.

 The person who performed our NSA uses cables made by Micro-coax 
 (http://www.micro-coax.com/). From this link, 
 https://www.micro-coax.com/secure/(wk1c1ujm3fbhqjfmk2qho3fg)/MCConfigurator.aspx
  
 https://www.micro-coax.com/secure/%28wk1c1ujm3fbhqjfmk2qho3fg%29/MCConfigurator.aspx,
  
 click Select Cable Type, you will find informaiton for diffierent 
 cable types. The diameters of 0.14 and 0.205 are flexible. I have 
 UFB311A (not as flexible as I like) and UFB142A (flexible) with 12 
 length.

 My colleague ordered a PHASEFLEX cable from W.L.Gore 
 (http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/microwave/test/gore_phaseflex_microwave_test_assemblies.html).
  
 It is very flexible and durable. W.L.Gore provides online purchase and 
 can be received next day 
 (http://consumer.gore.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10401storeId=10401productId=10854langId=-1parent_category_rn=10101
  
 http://consumer.gore.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10401storeId=10401productId=10854langId=-1parent_category_rn=10101).

 The price range for the above mentioned cables is $300-$1000.

 Regards,

 Grace

 On 7/15/08, *Kunde, Brian* brian_ku...@lecotc.com 
 mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com wrote:

 What coax cable types do you recommend for a very low loss cable up to 
 6Ghz but also flexible? I need a good low loss cable to connect 
 between my horn antenna and the floor connection of my Heliax. The 
 cable only needs to be 5 or 6 feet long but flexible enough so I can 
 change polarization on my antenna.

 I have looked at many cable types in catalogs and on-line but you 
 cannot tell if it will be flexible without seeing it for real. I 
 ordered a cable called Helical Super Flex. I liked

Re: Low Loss Coax Cable

[Derek Walton]

HI Brian,

I use Times Radio LMR-400-PVC I believe it is: it's usable to 12 GHz or 
so. I have also used Sucoflex cables to go to 18 GHz.

Sincerely

Derek.

Ken Javor wrote:
 Instead of looking for that long piece of flexible low-loss cable, why 
 not procure a very short length of low-loss semi-rigid cable bent in 
 to the proper shape to allow for the opposite polarization. Up to 6 
 GHz I would think the loss of that bent section would be low enough to 
 be insignificant, so that your overall cable loss would be no 
 different for your two different polarizations. If you’re a purist, 
 you could have two identical lengths of this short semi-rigid, each 
 formed for a specific polarization, and that way your cable losses 
 would be identical to two decimal places to the right of the decimal 
 point.

 Ken Javor

 Phone: (256) 650-5261


 
 *From: *Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com
 *Date: *Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:20:03 -0400
 *To: *emc-p...@ieee.org
 *Conversation: *Low Loss Coax Cable
 *Subject: *Low Loss Coax Cable

 What coax cable types do you recommend for a very low loss cable up to 
 6Ghz but also flexible? I need a good low loss cable to connect 
 between my horn antenna and the floor connection of my Heliax. The 
 cable only needs to be 5 or 6 feet long but flexible enough so I can 
 change polarization on my antenna.

 I have looked at many cable types in catalogs and on-line but you 
 cannot tell if it will be flexible without seeing it for real. I 
 ordered a cable called “Helical Super Flex”. I liked the low loss 
 properties but it was not at all flexible, let alone super flexible. 
 It was barely semi-rigid in my book .

 I tried RG393/U but it is not very flexible and I prefer a lower loss 
 cable if possible.

 What do you all recommend? What is the best? Where can I buy it in 
 small quantities and possibly in custom lengths?

 Thanks to all in advance.

 The Other Brian





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DO160E Cat Y testing

[Derek Walton]

Can anyone forward the names and/or costs of doing DO160E CatY Radiated 
testing lease. I'm trying to collect budgetary numbers and facilities 
for a proposal.

Perhaps an off line reply would be best.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
L F Research

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