date:20071015

Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
 It might make sense to have an option without terminals, for those of us 
 who really can't stand the IDC ones ;)  Even if I only save $10 or $20 
 due to parts cost, I sure save a lot of work and aggravation by not 
 having to desolder the large connectors.
I can't test it on my bed-of-nails text fixture without 
something soldered in those holes.  Maybe I should prominently 
list the screw-terminal option on my price list.  It sure is a 
pain of somebody has to pull the whole board out of their system 
and send it for repair.
Fortunately, that is extremely rare, unless they get hit by 
lightning.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 06:00:46PM -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:

 http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/emc2/spindle_sync_surge-1b.png

Like Jon says, the axis needs some time to sync up with the spindle.
The lower your acceleration is, the harder this is to do, and the
farther outside the thread you need to start your passes.  All CNC
lathes have this, and the only cure is high acceleration or low
spindle speed.

That being said, you've found a bug with G33+G4.  Adjacent G33 moves
are supposed to maintain synchronization.  This is the basis for
tapered infeed/outfeed on threads, and lets you do other neat stuff
too, like change pitch in the middle of a thread.  However, the pause
in your gcode is something I didn't think about and throws a big
wrench in the works.  When the G33 after the pause comes in, the
motion is WAY behind and you get the surge as it catches up.

If you put an unsynchronized move (G0,G1) in between your G33 commands
you'll get the behavior you expect.

I don't think this will be a trivial fix but I will get to it.  For
now, just don't use pause like that.  Thanks for finding and
reporting this one.

Chris


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Re: [Emc-users] Halscope Settings

Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Sun, 2007-10-14 at 22:59 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
 
Kirk Wallace wrote:

Is there a way to save Halscope channel settings and reload them later?

It does do that.  If you don't have the latest version, it 
didn't save every setting, but it did save the channel 
assignment.  Oh, you want to save it as a file, and reload after 
making a different setting.  Hmm, there is a back-door way to do 
it, because these settings are put in a file with the other 
files in your configs directory.  I think it starts with a ., 
so it won't show up unless you do an ls -a command.

Jon
 
 
 Thanks Jon.
 
 I looked briefly at the emc.nml file and didn't see anything obvious,
 but I wonder if there is a way to run Halscope on another computer like
 you can run the user interface by redirecting emcsvr?
 
Oh, my, I most certainly wouldn't know!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

Kirk Wallace wrote:
 After looking at the graph for a while, it came to me that the slope of
 the Z0 to Z2 move intersects the vertex of the Z2 to Z0 move and the
 G4p0.2 dwell. Shown as line A my revised graph here:
 
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/emc2/spindle_sync_surge-1b.png
 
 Shouldn't the target slope have been line B?

Lines A and B are separated by about 1/3 of a second.  If your 
spindle speed is roughly 180 RPM, then they are separated by one 
turn of the spindle.  EMC decides which turn is best to sync to. 
  In this specific case, it actually stops the Z axis for a 
moment.  This makes me believe that it has determined it would 
have required excessive acceleration to sync up to rev A-1, and 
decided to wait for rev A.  Rev B would have required even 
greater wait time, so it was not even looked at as a choice, 
since rev A could be achieved.

This is what I read from your plot.  I assume many times there 
would be a smaller wobble in velocity, since this particular 
snapshot may be one of the worst-case situations.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Fw: G-Code

Alex Joni wrote:
 From: D. Kokenge 
 To: Alex Joni
 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:00 AM
 Subject: G-Code

I recently wrote software to generate G-code from a photo or
line drawings.
It generates code that follows line or photos.
Photos move the head back and forth up the photo.
Line drawings create g-code that follows the line. This is
useful when doing stuff like dovetails etc.
There are a number of these photo to engraving programs around, 
with varying quality.  I have not seen any program that does the 
drawing to vector conversion, at least in the hobby-experimental 
market, so this is very interesting!

Thanks,

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading without feedback?

Svenne Larsson wrote:
 Guys,
 
 Out of curiosity, can an EMC lathe make threads without spindle feedback?
 On cnczone.com http://cnczone.com a guy posted pictures on a thread 
 made with Mach without spindle feedback, only a VFD as speed controller. 
 They looked truly good.
 
 I know there are problems with it (torque figures, exact positioning, 
 RPM loss etc), but is it possible with EMC?
Sure, but you have to make the thread in a single pass.  Without 
the feedback, there would be no way to align a second pass with 
the first one.  But, if you can cut the thread in one pass, then 
you need to know the exact spindle speed, and you can compute 
the right feed rate knowing that RPM.  The more accurately you 
know the spindle speed, the more accurate the thread pitch will be.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 10:49:05AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
 
 Lines A and B are separated by about 1/3 of a second.  If your 
 spindle speed is roughly 180 RPM, then they are separated by one 
 turn of the spindle.  EMC decides which turn is best to sync to. 

See my other message for a description of what's really happening
here.  

At the start of a spindle synchronized move (which can be made up of
several adjacent G33 commands) EMC always stops motion and waits for
the next index.

Chris

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading without feedback?

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 05:24:01PM +0200, Svenne Larsson wrote:
 Guys,
 
 Out of curiosity, can an EMC lathe make threads without spindle feedback?
 On cnczone.com a guy posted pictures on a thread made with Mach without
 spindle feedback, only a VFD as speed controller. They looked truly good.
 
 I know there are problems with it (torque figures, exact positioning, RPM
 loss etc), but is it possible with EMC?

Well you could command S300, trust your spindle to run that speed, and
cut a thread with G1.

Alternately, there are all sorts of tricks you could do in HAL to
synthesize the spindle position signal that the motion controller
requires to cut threads.  I don't recommend any of them.

(I really hope this doesn't trigger another thread [haha] about Mach)

Chris

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Re: [Emc-users] hal servo questions

Chris Radek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 07:51:59PM -0600, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
  Duty cycles from 0 to about 55% give me increasing whining from the
  motor but no movement at all.  55 to 100% gives increasing motor speed
  and torque.
 
 I think my linearity is much better than you describe.  Maybe try
 pure pwm mode (not pdm)?  Or it may just be a matter of your low
 power supply.  I'm using 24V on mine.

I got a 24VDC, 3.6A power supply hooked up, and it changed the situation
but didnt fix the problem.  I now get motion at 50% duty cycle.  At 53%,
the motor exceeds the max RPM my computer can run the encoder-reader
thread, and I start losing steps

Next to try is to feed the circuit a PWM signal instead of the PDM
I'm sending it now, and to run it in slow decay mode instead of fast
decay mode like I'm doing now.  I'll try these things out at the end of
this week.


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading without feedback?

2007-10-15 Thread Svenne Larsson

Na, that wasn't my purpose so please let Mach stay out of this. :)

Thanks for the replies, I was interested in the theoretical manner.

Regards,
Sven

2007/10/15, Chris Radek [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 05:24:01PM +0200, Svenne Larsson wrote:
  Guys,
 
  Out of curiosity, can an EMC lathe make threads without spindle
 feedback?
  On cnczone.com a guy posted pictures on a thread made with Mach without
  spindle feedback, only a VFD as speed controller. They looked truly
 good.
 
  I know there are problems with it (torque figures, exact positioning,
 RPM
  loss etc), but is it possible with EMC?

 Well you could command S300, trust your spindle to run that speed, and
 cut a thread with G1.

 Alternately, there are all sorts of tricks you could do in HAL to
 synthesize the spindle position signal that the motion controller
 requires to cut threads.  I don't recommend any of them.

 (I really hope this doesn't trigger another thread [haha] about Mach)

 Chris

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[Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

I'm playing around with EMC, trying to control a small brushed DC motor.
The parallel port controls an H-bridge circuit which feeds power to
the motor.  The motor has a 256-line encoder on the motor shaft, which
I read through the parallel port.

The fastest thread my PC can run reliably is about 40 KHz, so that's
how fast I'm reading the encoder lines.  This really puts a damper
on my top motor speed.

Let L be the number of lines on the encoder.  Let R be the speed of
the motor in revolutions per minute.

(4 * L) is the number of quadrature transitions per revolution.

(R / 60) is the number of revolutions per second.

(4*L) * (R/60) is the number of quadrature transitions per second.

F = 2 * (4*L) * (R/60) is the minimum sampling frequency for reliable
operations (according to Nyquist, as I understand it).


If F = 40 KHz and L = 256, then R = 1170 RPM.  Experimentally, I can push
the speed a bit higher than this before it starts missing transitions and
losing position.  I guess that factor of two (Nyquist) is conservative?

Anyway, this is much slower than the top speed of the motor.  I think
there are two ways to deal with this situation:

The prefered way is to read the encoder lines much faster, say 10x.
This is hard over a parallel port, but easily doable on dedicated
hardware like the Pluto-P or similar.

The alternative, if option 1 isn't possible, is to limit the motor
speed.  That is what I want to ask about in this email.


I've determined that with no load on the motor shaft, stepping the
PWM duty cycle from 0 to 100% causes the motor to accelerate from a
stand-still to the 1200 RPM limit in about 75 us.

My plan for trying to limit the motor shaft speed is to run a two-level
PID controller.  The first PID controller tries to achieve the target
position using encoder.position as feedback.  The output from the
position PID controller goes not to the pulse generator, but to the
command for the velocity PID controller.  The velocity PID controller
uses encoder.velocity as feedback, and *its* output goes to pwmgen.value.

I'll run the velocity PID controller in a relatively fast thread (no
more than 75 us period), but the position PID controller can run at the
usual rate of 1 KHz or so.


Does this seem feasible?  Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

2007-10-15 Thread Kyle

Maybe this is a dumb point. Could you not flow solder on the contacts on 
the board and let the user choose?

Kyle

Jon Elson wrote:
 I can't test it on my bed-of-nails text fixture without 
 something soldered in those holes.  Maybe I should prominently 
 list the screw-terminal option on my price list.  It sure is a 
 pain of somebody has to pull the whole board out of their system 
 and send it for repair.
 Fortunately, that is extremely rare, unless they get hit by 
 lightning.

 Jon
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
   

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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

2007-10-15 Thread Stephen Wille Padnos

Actually, there's a better way :)  (getting rid of the solder is one of 
the pains of replacing those connectors.)

There are hundreds of kinds of pins for bed-o-nails fixtures, including 
ones that are meant to toich pins (cup varieties), ones that are meant 
to touch bare metal areas like SMT pads (castle-type, I think), and ones 
that are meant to poke into empty holes, which are basically cone shaped.

These are also available in sockets - you populate the socket into the 
text fixture board, and then you can choose which type of pin to insert, 
and can repair a bent/broken probe pin by just putting in a new one.

At my old company, test jig repairs were basically eliminated when we 
went to the socketed probe pins.

- Steve

Kyle wrote:

Maybe this is a dumb point. Could you not flow solder on the contacts on 
the board and let the user choose?

Kyle

Jon Elson wrote:
  

I can't test it on my bed-of-nails text fixture without 
something soldered in those holes.  Maybe I should prominently 
list the screw-terminal option on my price list.  It sure is a 
pain of somebody has to pull the whole board out of their system 
and send it for repair.
Fortunately, that is extremely rare, unless they get hit by 
lightning.

Jon
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Re: [Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

2007-10-15 Thread John Kasunich

Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
 I'm playing around with EMC, trying to control a small brushed DC motor.
 The parallel port controls an H-bridge circuit which feeds power to
 the motor.  The motor has a 256-line encoder on the motor shaft, which
 I read through the parallel port.
 
 The fastest thread my PC can run reliably is about 40 KHz, so that's
 how fast I'm reading the encoder lines.  This really puts a damper
 on my top motor speed.
 
 Let L be the number of lines on the encoder.  Let R be the speed of
 the motor in revolutions per minute.
 
 (4 * L) is the number of quadrature transitions per revolution.
 
 (R / 60) is the number of revolutions per second.
 
 (4*L) * (R/60) is the number of quadrature transitions per second.
 
 F = 2 * (4*L) * (R/60) is the minimum sampling frequency for reliable
 operations (according to Nyquist, as I understand it).
 
 
 If F = 40 KHz and L = 256, then R = 1170 RPM.  Experimentally, I can push
 the speed a bit higher than this before it starts missing transitions and
 losing position.  I guess that factor of two (Nyquist) is conservative?
 
 Anyway, this is much slower than the top speed of the motor.  I think
 there are two ways to deal with this situation:
 
 The prefered way is to read the encoder lines much faster, say 10x.
 This is hard over a parallel port, but easily doable on dedicated
 hardware like the Pluto-P or similar.
 
 The alternative, if option 1 isn't possible, is to limit the motor
 speed.  That is what I want to ask about in this email.
 
 
 I've determined that with no load on the motor shaft, stepping the
 PWM duty cycle from 0 to 100% causes the motor to accelerate from a
 stand-still to the 1200 RPM limit in about 75 us.

Wow.

And wow again.

That is one VERY low inertia motor, or an astonishing amount of torque,
or both.  Zero to 1200 RPM in 75uS is 16,000 RPM per millisecond.  I
don't know what the top speed of the motor is, but it sounds like it
can get there in at most a couple milliseconds.  That's remarkable
performance.

You might want to connect it to your actual load and measure the accel
rate again.  If it is a very low inertia motor, you might find that the 
load inertia gets the accel rate down to something a little less 
astonishing, and a lot easier to deal with.

 My plan for trying to limit the motor shaft speed is to run a two-level
 PID controller.  The first PID controller tries to achieve the target
 position using encoder.position as feedback.  The output from the
 position PID controller goes not to the pulse generator, but to the
 command for the velocity PID controller.  The velocity PID controller
 uses encoder.velocity as feedback, and *its* output goes to pwmgen.value.
 
 I'll run the velocity PID controller in a relatively fast thread (no
 more than 75 us period), but the position PID controller can run at the
 usual rate of 1 KHz or so.
 
 
 Does this seem feasible?  Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
 

The problem is going to be getting usable velocity feedback.  Your 
encoder sampling is at 25uS, and your PID is running at 75uS.  That
means in any one PID period, you get either 0, 1, 2, or 3 encoder
counts.  Not much resolution.

Regards,

John Kasunich



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Re: [Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

John Kasunich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
  I've determined that with no load on the motor shaft, stepping the
  PWM duty cycle from 0 to 100% causes the motor to accelerate from a
  stand-still to the 1200 RPM limit in about 75 us.
 
 Wow.
 
 And wow again.
 
 That is one VERY low inertia motor, or an astonishing amount of torque,
 or both.  Zero to 1200 RPM in 75uS is 16,000 RPM per millisecond.  I
 don't know what the top speed of the motor is, but it sounds like it
 can get there in at most a couple milliseconds.  That's remarkable
 performance.

It's a Pittman 8322, overdriven from 19.1 V to 24 V.  The rated
top speed (at 19.1 V) is 7847 rpm, rated peak torque is
7.4 oz*in.  There are excellent manufacturer's specs here:
http://pittmannet.com/series8000motors.html


 You might want to connect it to your actual load and measure the accel
 rate again.  If it is a very low inertia motor, you might find that the 
 load inertia gets the accel rate down to something a little less 
 astonishing, and a lot easier to deal with.

Good idea, I bet it'll spin much slower when driving something.


  My plan for trying to limit the motor shaft speed is to run a two-level
  PID controller.  The first PID controller tries to achieve the target
  position using encoder.position as feedback.  The output from the
  position PID controller goes not to the pulse generator, but to the
  command for the velocity PID controller.  The velocity PID controller
  uses encoder.velocity as feedback, and *its* output goes to pwmgen.value.
  
  I'll run the velocity PID controller in a relatively fast thread (no
  more than 75 us period), but the position PID controller can run at the
  usual rate of 1 KHz or so.
 
 The problem is going to be getting usable velocity feedback.  Your 
 encoder sampling is at 25uS, and your PID is running at 75uS.  That
 means in any one PID period, you get either 0, 1, 2, or 3 encoder
 counts.  Not much resolution.

That makes sense.  If the load doesnt slow the motor down enough, it
looks like I'll need to buy a Pluto-P or a MesaNet product.

Bummer, I was hoping to do it all in software on the PC using just the
parallel port for I/O.


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

2007-10-15 Thread John Kasunich

Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:

 It's a Pittman 8322, overdriven from 19.1 V to 24 V.  The rated
 top speed (at 19.1 V) is 7847 rpm, rated peak torque is
 7.4 oz*in.  There are excellent manufacturer's specs here:
 http://pittmannet.com/series8000motors.html

 Bummer, I was hoping to do it all in software on the PC using just the
 parallel port for I/O.
 
 

If you limit the speed to 1200 RPM, you will be handicapping the
motor.  The power that a motor delivers is the product of speed
and torque.  If you cut the top speed from 7847 to 1200 RPM, you
can only get 15.3% of the motor's rated power out of it.  That's
pretty bad.

A configuration that lets the motor spin to full speed (either a
lower PPR encoder, or hardware to count the pulses) will let you
get full power out if it.  That might mean using toothed belts or
gears to reduce the shaft speed to match your screw, but when you
reduce the speed that way, you gain torque.  If you reduce speed
electrically, you do NOT gain any torque.

Regards,

John Kasunich


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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

2007-10-15 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 11:05 -0500, Chris Radek wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 10:49:05AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
  
  Lines A and B are separated by about 1/3 of a second.  If your 
  spindle speed is roughly 180 RPM, then they are separated by one 
  turn of the spindle.  EMC decides which turn is best to sync to. 
 
 See my other message for a description of what's really happening
 here.  
 
 At the start of a spindle synchronized move (which can be made up of
 several adjacent G33 commands) EMC always stops motion and waits for
 the next index.
 
 Chris
 

The only reason I put the G4's in was to try attenuate the low
acceleration problem. I wonder if it is worth fixing. 

I am getting the impression that the spindle index is what starts the
selected axis movement. Then for each spindle pulse there after, a
multiplier for each axis is applied to determine each axis command,
which is then passed to the normal PID loop to compensate for movement
limitations. The remaining piece is where in XYZ space to start, which
is just the location of the tool when the G33 started. Subsequent G33's
will have the same starting point if XYZ doesn't change and spindle zero
never changes. Based on this -- questions that come to mind are:

- Can a K be applied to each axis? Such as G33 z1.0 k0.050 x0.100
k0.010. I suppose, I could just try it and see what happens.

- In my graph, the movement correction over shot the (wrong) target on
both sides over the course of one second. With decent PID settings, I
would have thought that the movement would have been a brief ramp to the
target with small corrections from the bottom towards the target line.
This suggest a different feedback loop being used?

- How could subsequent G33's latch onto the last index of the previous
G33 before the current G33 is invoked? What persists between G33 calls?

- Can I latch on Index plus 26? I suppose this can be done by
calculating the XYZ movement for 26 counts and adjusting XYZ and
latching on Index.

I really need to get some real work done, so I'll stop now (crowd
cheers).

-- 
Kirk Wallace (California, USA
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ 
Hardinge HNC lathe
Bridgeport mill conversion pending
Zubal lathe conversion pending)


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Re: [Emc-users] Threading without feedback?

2007-10-15 Thread Jeff Epler

emc's motion controller uses the following HAL pins during the G33
spindle synchronized move and G76 threading canned cycle:
motion.spindle-revs
motion.spindle-index-enable
These must behave like the canonical encoder interface pins 'position'
and 'index-enable', described here: 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/hal_general_ref.html#sec:CanonEncoder

It is possible to imagine a component which reads an index input in
the fast thread and produces a guessed spindle-revs value every servo
period based on the expectation that the spindle velocity is constant
during the threading moves.  However, no such component has been
contributed to emc.  If you develop this component, please consider
contributing it:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ContributedComponents

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

2007-10-15 Thread Kenneth Lerman


I don't know what a K word does, but the interpreter allows only one per
block. The interpreter reads the block, storing all of the words in a table,
and then interprets it. The order of words in a block in not generally
relevant. The K word could be first, or last, or anywhere in the block.

Ken

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Kenny Products Company, LLC
55 Main Street   Voice: (888)ISO-SEVO (888)476-7386
Newtown, CT 06470Fax: (203)426-9138
http://www.MarkKenny.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kirk
Wallace
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 2:33 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion


On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 11:05 -0500, Chris Radek wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 10:49:05AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
 
  Lines A and B are separated by about 1/3 of a second.  If your
  spindle speed is roughly 180 RPM, then they are separated by one
  turn of the spindle.  EMC decides which turn is best to sync to.

 See my other message for a description of what's really happening
 here.

 At the start of a spindle synchronized move (which can be made up of
 several adjacent G33 commands) EMC always stops motion and waits for
 the next index.

 Chris


The only reason I put the G4's in was to try attenuate the low
acceleration problem. I wonder if it is worth fixing.

I am getting the impression that the spindle index is what starts the
selected axis movement. Then for each spindle pulse there after, a
multiplier for each axis is applied to determine each axis command,
which is then passed to the normal PID loop to compensate for movement
limitations. The remaining piece is where in XYZ space to start, which
is just the location of the tool when the G33 started. Subsequent G33's
will have the same starting point if XYZ doesn't change and spindle zero
never changes. Based on this -- questions that come to mind are:

- Can a K be applied to each axis? Such as G33 z1.0 k0.050 x0.100
k0.010. I suppose, I could just try it and see what happens.

- In my graph, the movement correction over shot the (wrong) target on
both sides over the course of one second. With decent PID settings, I
would have thought that the movement would have been a brief ramp to the
target with small corrections from the bottom towards the target line.
This suggest a different feedback loop being used?

- How could subsequent G33's latch onto the last index of the previous
G33 before the current G33 is invoked? What persists between G33 calls?

- Can I latch on Index plus 26? I suppose this can be done by
calculating the XYZ movement for 26 counts and adjusting XYZ and
latching on Index.

I really need to get some real work done, so I'll stop now (crowd
cheers).

--
Kirk Wallace (California, USA
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
Hardinge HNC lathe
Bridgeport mill conversion pending
Zubal lathe conversion pending)


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Re: [Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

John Kasunich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you limit the speed to 1200 RPM, you will be handicapping the
 motor.  The power that a motor delivers is the product of speed
 and torque.  If you cut the top speed from 7847 to 1200 RPM, you
 can only get 15.3% of the motor's rated power out of it.  That's
 pretty bad.
 
 A configuration that lets the motor spin to full speed (either a
 lower PPR encoder, or hardware to count the pulses) will let you
 get full power out if it.  That might mean using toothed belts or
 gears to reduce the shaft speed to match your screw, but when you
 reduce the speed that way, you gain torque.  If you reduce speed
 electrically, you do NOT gain any torque.

Thanks for that insight, this is all new to me.

Anyone know when the MesaNet parallel port FPGA card is coming out?  :-)


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

2007-10-15 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 13:18 -0400, Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
 Actually, there's a better way :)  (getting rid of the solder is one of 
 the pains of replacing those connectors.)
 
 There are hundreds of kinds of pins for bed-o-nails fixtures, including 
... snip
 went to the socketed probe pins.
 
 - Steve
 
 Kyle wrote:
...snip

This reminded me that I have seen pads on boards just for test pins.
Then I got to thinking it, would be nice to have a set of pads for d-sub
connectors. I like to screw mount either the connector or the
connection.
-- 
Kirk Wallace (California, USA
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ 
Hardinge HNC lathe
Bridgeport mill conversion pending
Zubal lathe conversion pending)


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Re: [Emc-users] Threading without feedback?

2007-10-15 Thread John Prentice

Sven

Not sure about what was posted as the link is rather generic. Mach3 uses an 
index sensor (slotted disc and opto) to get angular orientation and speed. 
Could not work with just a VFD as you need to know the angle to start each 
pass. But threads are pretty good with the simple opto gate or even reflective 
sensor.

John Prentice


  Guys,

  Out of curiosity, can an EMC lathe make threads without spindle feedback?
  On cnczone.com a guy posted pictures on a thread made with Mach without 
spindle feedback, only a VFD as speed controller. They looked truly good. 

  I know there are problems with it (torque figures, exact positioning, RPM 
loss etc), but is it possible with EMC?

  Regards,
  Sven



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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

2007-10-15 Thread Jeff Epler

It may be useful to refer to the docs, which I believe are up to date
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_main.html#sec:G33,-G33.1:-Spindle-Synchronized
.. but perhaps this conversation can help improve the documentation.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:33:27AM -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 - Can a K be applied to each axis? Such as G33 z1.0 k0.050 x0.100
 k0.010. I suppose, I could just try it and see what happens.

No, there can be only one K-word.  The K-word gives the distance moved
for each revolution of the spindle.  For instance, if you are at X=0 Z=0
and command
G33 X3 Z4 K.1
then the move will be on a sloped line with a total length of 5
(sqrt(3*3 + 4.4)).  During that time, the spindle will turn 5/.1 = 50
times.  The first turn will be 1/50th of the total distance, which means
that the machine will reach X.06 Z.08 at that time.

Look at it another way: Say you want to command the move from X=0 Z=0 to
X=3 Z=4, but with 10 revolutions per Z moved.  That's 40 total
revolutions, but the length of the move is 5.  Use K[40/5] = K.125.

 - How could subsequent G33's latch onto the last index of the previous
 G33 before the current G33 is invoked? What persists between G33 calls?

When the program has a G33 after a non-synchronized motion, it waits for
an index pulse before beginning the synchronized motion:
G0 ...
 ( waits for index here )
G33 ... 

When the program has two G33s in a row, the second one starts at
whatever angle the first one ended:
G33 ...
( no wait for index here )
G33 ...

So, for instance, these two are equivalent:
G0 X0 Y0 Z0
G33 X.25 K.1
G33 X1 K.1
and
G0 X0 Y0 Z0
G33 X1 K.1
even though in the first case, the spindle is part way through a
revolution when the X.25 move finished.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:33:27AM -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 
 - Can a K be applied to each axis? Such as G33 z1.0 k0.050 x0.100
 k0.010. I suppose, I could just try it and see what happens.

If I understand what you want, you get it just by specifying a
diagonal move.  K is the pitch _along the diagonal_.

 - In my graph, the movement correction over shot the (wrong) target on
 both sides over the course of one second. With decent PID settings, I
 would have thought that the movement would have been a brief ramp to the
 target with small corrections from the bottom towards the target line.
 This suggest a different feedback loop being used?

With the bug you tickled, the response to the position step is
pretty bad.  In normal operation it won't be like that.  You are
right that it uses a different (pretuned) feedback to track the
target position.

 - How could subsequent G33's latch onto the last index of the previous
 G33 before the current G33 is invoked? What persists between G33 calls?

The spindle position persists.  At the beginning of the series of
G33 moves, there was an index, and the position counts up from that
until the end of the series of G33 moves.

 - Can I latch on Index plus 26? I suppose this can be done by
 calculating the XYZ movement for 26 counts and adjusting XYZ and
 latching on Index.

I think you're asking about something like multi-start threads.  Since
there's no support for starting a pass anywhere but the index pulse,
you have to offset the pass in Z (XYZ) instead.

20 tpi, 2 start thread is something like this (depths left out for
clarity):

S500 M3
G20

G0 Z.5
G0 X1
G76 I_ J_ K_ P0.1 Z-1 (1/10 pitch)

G0 Z.45 (move 1/20th over)
G0 X1
G76 I_ J_ K_ P0.1 Z-1

M2

If you haven't used G76 yet, do try it, it's very much easier to cut a
thread that way.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/gcode/main/index.html#SECTION00317


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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

2007-10-15 Thread Peter C. Wallace


 Oh good - I'm glad I'm not the only one who has done that ;)

 Mesa has some of their I/O boards with terminal header options - the
 boards are about $20 more than their ribbon header counterparts, but the
 two 24-pin terminal plugs are about $22 *each*.  It's less than a
 (reasonable quality) breakout board, but not by all that much.

 - Steve

Actually if you remove the Digikey tax they are not so bad. Avnet price 
(MOQ=20) is 10.77


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
()_() signature to help him gain world domination.


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Re: [Emc-users] Restoring a saved HAL file

2007-10-15 Thread John Thornton

I couldn't tell if option was a lower case l (ell) or an upper case I (eye). 
Turns out it 
is an upper case i. Perhaps the upper case I (eye) and lower case l (ell) are 
poor 
choices for options... can't tell them apart on many systems.

Now I can test hal snippets...

If I can be of any help on updating the documentation just let me know
what do do...

Thanks
John



On 15 Oct 2007 at 8:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I'm trying to restore a saved HAL file in the terminal window.
  following the HAL TUTORIAL Chap 2.3.6 I get the following error
  after issuing this command:
  
  linux:~$ halcmd -f saved.hal
  RAPTI: ERROR: could not open shared memory (error=2)
  HAL: ERROR: rtapi init failed
  calcmd: hal_init() failed: -9
  NOTE: 'rtapi' kernel module must be loaded
  
  I've searched the hal doc and can not find any information on this.
 
 Looks like this part of the documentation needs to be updated.
 
 Try this instead:
 halrun -I -f saved.hal
 to start the realtime environment (halrun), load saved.hal (-f
 saved.hal), then show the 'halcmd:' prompt (-I).
 
 You'll need to issue 'start' once at the halcmd prompt to start the
 realtime threads; the 'start' command isn't written by 'halcmd save'.
 
 Jeff



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[Emc-users] Can anyone recomend me some Stepper Motor Drive interface?

2007-10-15 Thread 0 . 0

Hello everybody, i'm trying to make my own CNC Machine with EMC based as
control, and i dont know how start, i mean what Stepper motor drive
interface i need, or if exist some guide to build one, maybe i'm can build
it, i has see some examples in internet using Darling Transistors, .. i has
read about the Parallel port .. but something is no clear.

For example, what is your recomendation about the Driver card for Parallel
port and.. motors, if anyone can recomend me a brand and type of servo
motors for start my experiment, i want to attach in Milling machine, but for
start.. i only want test..

I'm not sure but, i think, i need a Stepper motor drive interface with the
capacity for use motors, depends of the capacity ... what amp have that
motor, how much big is.. what voltage.. and that thinks..

Well excuse me for all that questions.. mm if anyone have a guide about how
to build a prototype or a list of hardware to test EMC linux, please answer
Thanks in advance guys!!

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Sólo hay algo seguro, la infinita inseguridad de la seguridad_
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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

Kyle wrote:
 Maybe this is a dumb point. Could you not flow solder on the contacts on 
 the board and let the user choose?
Most users would not want to have to suck the solder out of 60 
holes and then solder in connectors.  I really don't blame them, 
either!  If you really want to do it this way, I could make up
a board like that.

JOn

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Re: [Emc-users] my servo motor is faster than my computer!

Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
 John Kasunich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The problem is going to be getting usable velocity feedback.  Your 
encoder sampling is at 25uS, and your PID is running at 75uS.  That
means in any one PID period, you get either 0, 1, 2, or 3 encoder
counts.  Not much resolution.
 
Very good point!  That's why DC tach generators were all the 
rage 30 years ago.
 
 That makes sense.  If the load doesnt slow the motor down enough, it
 looks like I'll need to buy a Pluto-P or a MesaNet product.
 
 Bummer, I was hoping to do it all in software on the PC using just the
 parallel port for I/O.
 
 

There are things a big, heavy, general computing CPU just can't 
do well, and incredibly fast interrupt service is one of them.
Sampling an encoder in software is a bad way to do it, because 
of all the time you are missing transitions between the samples.
For instance, my servo control boards all sample the encoder at 
1 MHz, and some people complain that isn't fast enough for them!

Also, trying to do PDM or PWM in software, on the same 
general-purpose CPU runs into the same difficulty.  My PWM board 
runs with a 10 MHz clock, mostly for compatibility with the step 
generator board.  The next version will probably run at 40 MHz, 
to give finer time resolution.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion

Kirk Wallace wrote:


 
 
 The only reason I put the G4's in was to try attenuate the low
 acceleration problem. I wonder if it is worth fixing. 
 
 I am getting the impression that the spindle index is what starts the
 selected axis movement.
No, I think there has to be more to it than that.  If you can do 
multi-start threads, then the other starts would not commence 
movement at the spindle index, but offset from it by some angle.

Anyway, once spindle index has been achieved, the spindle 
encoder starts counting up or down from zero, and the index is 
not looked at again.  The spindle encoder count then will count 
MORE than one revolution's worth of counts during the move, and 
not keep resetting to zero.
 
 - In my graph, the movement correction over shot the (wrong) target on
 both sides over the course of one second. With decent PID settings, I
 would have thought that the movement would have been a brief ramp to the
 target with small corrections from the bottom towards the target line.
 This suggest a different feedback loop being used?
 
 - How could subsequent G33's latch onto the last index of the previous
 G33 before the current G33 is invoked? What persists between G33 calls?
 
I don't think they do - that wouldn't work, because the 
transition from one Z move to the next may not be ocurring 
exactly on a full revolution.  If the movement needs to be 
continuous from one G33 into the next, then it would not re-sync 
to the spindle, but calculate the encoder count at which the 
transition would be made.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

2007-10-15 Thread Javid Butler

You might be able to find a crown type large enough to probe either 
populated or unpopulated boards. Have you tried targeting the edge of the 
hole with a crown type? Unless the fillet is very large that might work.

Javid

- Original Message - 
From: Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Pluto Alternatives

 Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
 Actually, there's a better way :)  (getting rid of the solder is one of
 the pains of replacing those connectors.)

 There are hundreds of kinds of pins for bed-o-nails fixtures, including
 ones that are meant to toich pins (cup varieties), ones that are meant
 to touch bare metal areas like SMT pads (castle-type, I think), and ones
 that are meant to poke into empty holes, which are basically cone shaped.

 These are also available in sockets - you populate the socket into the
 text fixture board, and then you can choose which type of pin to insert,
 and can repair a bent/broken probe pin by just putting in a new one.

 At my old company, test jig repairs were basically eliminated when we
 went to the socketed probe pins.
 Yes, I have cup-type socketed probe pins from Interconnect
 Solutions, I think, in my test unit.  I could probably replace
 the pins with different types, but there are only certain type
 of pins that fit each size socket.  These are some fairly big
 holes in the board, so I might not be able to get big enough
 pins for the empty holes.  But, probably there is something that
 would work.  But, I'd have to change 60 contacts to swap the
 fixture over from populated to non-populated terminals strips.
 That could also get to be a drag.

 Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] HNC Lathe Spindle Sync Motion