[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is > funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT > is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and > goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, > and then get bounced out. That's certainly been my experience. And it's definitely progressive, as you suggest later. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On the other hand, when neo-advaitists sell a dichotomous view of > "enlightenment", and on top of that proclaim "You just need to > BELIEVE, Peter, and you CAN fly" (as in Peter Pan), "Just BELIEVE > it and you ARE enlightened -- and the light will be fully and > eternally ON" -- they are being silly too, IMO. You know, I don't have any trouble accepting that for some people, that *is* their experience. (Not everyone who makes the claim, but that's another story.) Once it happens, it seems to become their reality that they must have been previously "ignoring" it or "pretending" it didn't exist, because it now seems always to have "been there." They literally cannot remember what it was like when they simply weren't able to be aware of it. The problem is that some of them then assume that this applies across the board, that all they have to do is say, "Hey, it's there," and folks will go, "Oh, by gum, so it is." And if they don't, it's because they are somehow intentionally refusing to "see" it. They're likely to scoff, if not become annoyed, if you don't take *their* reality seriously, but it doesn't seem to occur to them that it works both ways. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > > then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is > > funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT > > is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and > > goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, > > and then get bounced out. > > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. So, to clarify (my understanding), its not that you don't want to be overshadowed (as in a permanent state of "overshadowment"). Its not that Awareness is not (never) present. Its that you simply want to be overshadowed less often. That you want Awareness to be Aware / present more often. (As if it can Not be Aware -- but for words sake...) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > > > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > > So, to clarify (my understanding), its not that you don't want to be > overshadowed (as in a permanent state of "overshadowment"). Its not > that Awareness is not (never) present. Its that you simply want to > be overshadowed less often. That you want Awareness to be Aware / > present more often. Sure, preferably all the time, but I'll take whatever I can get! I also find that the more often/longer Awareness is "present," the more of a pain it is when it "goes away." (As if it can Not be Aware -- but for words > sake...) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > > > > > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > > > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > > > > So, to clarify (my understanding), its not that you don't want to > > be overshadowed (as in a permanent state of "overshadowment"). > > Its not that Awareness is not (never) present. Its that you > > simply want to be overshadowed less often. That you want > > Awareness to be Aware / present more often. > > Sure, preferably all the time, but I'll take > whatever I can get! > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > "goes away." Just out of curiosity, did you really have me pegged as someone who believes what you wrote in the first sentence of the paragraph at the top? I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha: : > > > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years > > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total > > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people > > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a > > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. Judy: > > > > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > > > > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. A: > > > So, to clarify (my understanding), its not that you don't want to be overshadowed (as in a permanent state of "overshadowment"). Its not that Awareness is not (never) present. Its that you simply want to be overshadowed less often. That you want Awareness to be Aware / present more often. J: > > Sure, preferably all the time, but I'll take > > whatever I can get! > > > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > > "goes away." J: > Just out of curiosity, did you really have me pegged > as someone who believes what you wrote in the first > sentence of the paragraph at the top? A: I don't try to peg anyone. As you may know, from past convos, I try to postpone pegging, evaluating or judging people util the last necessary moment. I know that sounds like SimilAdvaita -- but its true, that is my ethic as of late. And for a while. I postpone until I have to decide on some action with regards to them pertinent to the evaluation of them. You may know in chain-suppy management and other business managment specialties, the last 20 years have been rocked by the concept of JIT -- Just In Time -- often refering to inventory management -- meaning the truck with more steel panels pulls up to the factory just as they are using their last ones. Thus minimizing or eliminating inventory costs -- which can be huge. Anyway, a digression to give some context to JIT-Judgements. It keeps the mind and nadis free of clogging inventories of useless judgements. But I was not really thinking of you when I said some appear to hold that we meditate for 20-30 years and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light. I am not sure anyone really holds that position, but some statements highly imply it at times. Apparenetly, possibly, unbeknownst to them or their conscious acknowledgement. For example, some may wax eloquently, and extensively on Consciousness and then imply, and sometimes even emphatically state, that "but 'you' can't possibly understand what I am talking about, and you can't posssibly speak sensibly on the topic because, well, the experience of pure consciousness has never dawned within you. And certainly it is not there now. I am certain." I mean, ones gotta bite their lip to keep from bursting out laughing in their face. Or others, pronounce as emphatically, that the experience of pure consciousness could finally dawn if you just simply gave up believing that its not there. Again, one just has to laugh -- though discretely. Do they really expect you to accept the premise of the question -- that after 40 years of meditation, 2+ years of long rounding, lots of pujas, one has no experience of PC? Its mind boggling that people can .. well never mind. What did puzzle me about you, are some of your recent statements about not wanting to be overshadowed anymore. While it would be hard to believe that you never experienced PC in activity, I understand that some may not connect "that thing" with PC. And to that extent, some dialectic in the matter can be useful (I think). So I was seeking clarification. J: > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. I apologize, I dont always read all of your posts. (Mostly during periods when its "you said, no you said" diologues. Sorry.) So I may have inadvertently missed some good stuff. > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. Yes, it boggles the mind. But doesn't some of the diologue here seem to imply it? Maybe its just me and I am missing some peoples points. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Akasha: : > > > > > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years > > > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total > > > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people > > > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a > > > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. Bounced out into what? Not-IT? Is this really possible? Or is maybe the whole IT-versus not-IT thing just more of the gunas? That is, if IT comes and goes, is IT *not* really IT, but just another phenomenon -- albeit perhaps one of great clarity and Presence? Sattva, in other words? But Sattva must fall to Rajas and Tamas; that's the nature of the gunas. So maybe the real IT then is simply the Us who enfolds both IT and not- IT? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is > funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT > is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and > goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, > and then get bounced out. Judy writes: That's certainly been my experience. And it's definitely progressive, as you suggest later. Tom T: Jean Kline awoke in 1955 and continued till his death in the late 90's. From his book I AM page 83 para 3 " Enlightenment is instantaneous but the mind becomes gradually clearer. The clarity of the mind brings about a relaxation from old patterns, a freeing of energy which in turn stimulates clearsightedness. It leads us toward living free from all striving to attain something, free from the tension brought about by waiting for something to happen, expectation." The above seems to be the norm. The Byron Katies and the Eckhart Tolles seem to be the exception rather than the norm. In looking back I can agree that was the case for me. There was a moment that was way out of time and something big had happened but I was not clear enough to get it. Years later in clearness and clarity is was easy to see the times IT had come to the foreground and then had slipped away because it could not be clearly appreciated. Tom Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Akasha: : > > > > > > > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 > years > > > > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to > total > > > > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent > people > > > > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to > a > > > > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > Bounced out into what? Not-IT? > Is this really possible? > Or is maybe the whole IT-versus not-IT thing just more of the gunas? > That is, if IT comes and goes, is IT *not* really IT, but just another > phenomenon -- albeit perhaps one of great clarity and Presence? > Sattva, in other words? But Sattva must fall to Rajas and Tamas; > that's the nature of the gunas. > So maybe the real IT then is simply the Us who enfolds both IT and not- > IT? You are smarter than that Rory. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > J: > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > I apologize, I dont always read all of your posts. (Mostly during > periods when its "you said, no you said" diologues. Sorry.) So I may > have inadvertently missed some good stuff. No, I was just wondering if I didn't say it clearly or something. > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. > > Yes, it boggles the mind. But doesn't some of the diologue here seem > to imply it? Maybe its just me and I am missing some peoples points. I don't recall having read anyone saying here that you meditate for many years with no discernible change and then suddenly be in CC, at least not as the standard pattern with TM. But I could have missed it. The other dogma, that you can just *decide* to become suddenly enlightened, we've been seeing a lot. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Akasha: : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20- 30 > > years > > > > > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to > > total > > > > > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent > > people > > > > > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to > > a > > > > > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > > > Bounced out into what? Not-IT? > > Is this really possible? > > Or is maybe the whole IT-versus not-IT thing just more of the gunas? > > That is, if IT comes and goes, is IT *not* really IT, but just another > > phenomenon -- albeit perhaps one of great clarity and Presence? > > Sattva, in other words? But Sattva must fall to Rajas and Tamas; > > that's the nature of the gunas. > > So maybe the real IT then is simply the Us who enfolds both IT and not- > > IT? > > You are smarter than that Rory. As well as I can speak it, this is the understanding that frees me from the impermanence of bondage to experience in spacetime and into heartfelt appreciation of my own everpresent fullness. I am not smarter than that; I am that :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't recall having read anyone saying here > that you meditate for many years with no > discernible change and then suddenly be in > CC, at least not as the standard pattern with > TM. But I could have missed it. > > The other dogma, that you can just *decide* to > become suddenly enlightened, we've been seeing > a lot. When we realize that all the various states of consciousness we have ever known or tasted are -- however enjoyable -- yet impermanent, partial, changing, and that there must somehow be something more, something unchanging that embraces them all, even here and now -- at this point, we may well decide to suddenly step off the belief- system of "progress" toward a never-arriving "goal." This is (or can be) the beginning of real Awakening, and it may well unfold from a specific decision to step off the merry-go-round. I believe it would certainly help first to have experienced at least a taste of whatever various states of consciousness one had thought one had desired. Whether one can actually voluntarily "decide" the first part of this realization -- that any conceptual experience or state of consciousness is experience-bound and impermanent -- I don't know. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > > then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is > > funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT > > is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and > > goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, > > and then get bounced out. > Judy writes: > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > Tom T: > Jean Kline awoke in 1955 and continued till his death in the late > 90's. From his book I AM page 83 para 3 " Enlightenment is > instantaneous but the mind becomes gradually clearer., While to me, initially, this sounds discordant and a bit odd, I am always open to new ways of looking at things. If you read my prior posts today, then per kline, I might say that that day after my initiation -- IT was always there -- thereafter, foreever -- but slipped into the background at times. (The same idea as "falling into it and out of it" -- in my post this morning. I am inclined towards the foreground / background model -- one reason that I spent somtime on it this moring in post to Judy -- with concrete experiential link. It "supports" and makes reasonable the claim and reported experience "its always been here, I just did not recognize it", that is, it was in the background. And F/B explains "overshadowing": IT falls to background, life falls to foreground. Its not that IT disappears -- but we sometimes need to succumb to the limits of english syntax if we are not to sound as autonotom space robots. (Thus prior post's note to Rory -- you are smarter than harping on well known and acknowledged limits of language. Of course IT is always there. Why make big drama over the limits of language -- and project such onto others as "misunderstnading"? It gets tiresome after a bit. > The clarity of > the mind brings about a relaxation from old patterns, a freeing of > energy which in turn stimulates clearsightedness. It leads us toward > living free from all striving to attain something, free from the > tension brought about by waiting for something to happen, expectation." Thats all fine and true. And fits the F/B model. The shift to foreground attention of PC helps dissolves old patterns and expectations. What is odd to say one is "enlightened", per kline, while this is going one. Regadless, its arbitrary and as equally foolish, IMO, to refer to enlightenment even if the above disolving process is complete. > The above seems to be the norm. The Byron Katies and the Eckhart > Tolles seem to be the exception rather than the norm. In looking back I can agree that was the case for me. There was a moment that was way out of time and something big had happened but I was not clear enough to get it. Years later in clearness and clarity is was easy to see the times IT had come to the foreground and then had slipped away because it could not be clearly appreciated. Tom Yes, if I follow you correctly, it seems to be the path for many, my self certainly, and Judy seems to say it is for her, that its a alternating symbiotic process of F/B, B/F. The alternation helps in stabilizing and disolving/purifying. As is standard TMO stuff. Yellow dye, white cloth. What still seems odd to me is the apparently felt need to judge and label some point on the ever extending spectrum as "enlightenment". Its just more and more foreground. Until the entire earth, oceans, sun and moon are in the foreground with It as IT. And that still may be just the beginning. In that regard, I sort of like klines approach (with apologies to kline, the following is my slant on his view: "get rid of the silliness now, in the beginning, and be done with it. You are all enlightened. BFD. Now that that ego hurdle is done, let PC work its magic as Awarenrnaess -- as attention of it oacillates between forground and background. Until It in all dimensions is eternally in foreground. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Judy: > I don't recall having read anyone saying here > that you meditate for many years with no > discernible change and then suddenly be in > CC, at least not as the standard pattern with > TM. But I could have missed it. Its diologues over the past 3-4 years. And its not an explicit claim. But strongly imlpied -- so much so, I see no other possibility than the underlying premise being held that one meditates for many years with no discernible change and then suddenly be in CC. That is, there little acknowlegement by some that there is regular and "strong" PC "in" foreground by many. Contrary to the "pontificators" implied singular claims to the experience. > The other dogma, that you can just *decide* to > become suddenly enlightened, we've been seeing > a lot. yes. Reminds me of EST. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> A:
> > > > > No, thats not quite the angle that struck me as so funny.
The
> > > > > deliciousness of the phrase is more a "mu" experience, a
> > la "whats
> > > > > wrong with this picture."
>
> J:
> > > > What's wrong with the picture of somebody not
> > > > wanting to be overshadowed? You've got me
> > > > curious--can you articulate it?
>
> U:
> > > I'd love to hear akasha's answer,
>
> I may sell tickets then :)
>
> U:
> > but mine
> > > would be, "It's a marvelous way of clinging
> > > to the notion of unenlightenment. To want
> > > to not be overshadowed, you have to believe
> > > you are. And the funny thing is, the moment
> > > you drop that belief, you aren't.
>
> :J
> > Yeah, that answer would be bull.
> >
> > Especially from somebody who admits he isn't
> > enlightened.
>
>
> Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the whole
> paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, digital,
> either "on or off"?
YES! That's exactly the issue.
I realized that some time back, during the discussions
about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom
made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up
with a new one that more accurately described my
subjective experience.
> Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not before.
Before. There has never been a moment in my life when
I was not enlightened. I just never appreciated it
until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit-
nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since
then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to
background many times, but what I realized during the
'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been
present. What I realized when I first appreciated it
was that it had *always* been present.
> And
> it can be delicate at first, and fade (yellow dye and cloth anyone?)
> or become "overshadowed". But it keeps coming back. Sometimes more
> noticable, sometimes present only when one notices it --- "where are
> my glasses?" ("you are wearng them, silly") is a good analogy.
And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from
background to foreground any time you want. It's just
the neatest thing.
The thing that brought it from background to foreground
most recently was, strangely enough, watching an old
movie on DVD. It was Roger Corman's, "The Raven," which
starred Vincent Price, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, and
a young guy in one of his first film roles, as Peter
Lorre's son. This young actor was SO bad that it made
you want to cringe. It was just amazing to watch. It
was like I was watching a brilliant actor brilliantly
playing the part of the worst actor ever filmed.
I was. It was Jack Nicholson. The thing is, he was a
great actor even then. He just didn't appreciate it,
so his range was limited, and he clung to old ideas of
being a bad actor, trapped by ignorance and inexperience.
It wasn't true. All that he ever became was already
present, just not appreciated, and thus unused.
That's the thing that is striking me about all these
conversations last night and this morning. Some people
who have learned to appreciate what has always been
present are talking to others who have not. The ones
who have not appreciated their own enlightenment are
playing a role, clinging to the illusion of their
ignorance as strongly as Jack was clinging to the
illusion of being a bad actor in The Raven. It's
all very, very, very, very funny.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > > then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is > > funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT > > is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and > > goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, > > and then get bounced out. > Judy writes: > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > Tom T: > Jean Kline awoke in 1955 and continued till his death in the late > 90's. From his book I AM page 83 para 3 " Enlightenment is > instantaneous but the mind becomes gradually clearer. The clarity of > the mind brings about a relaxation from old patterns, a freeing of > energy which in turn stimulates clearsightedness. It leads us toward > living free from all striving to attain something, free from the > tension brought about by waiting for something to happen, expectation." > The above seems to be the norm. The Byron Katies and the Eckhart > Tolles seem to be the exception rather than the norm. In looking back > I can agree that was the case for me. There was a moment that was way > out of time and something big had happened but I was not clear enough > to get it. Years later in clearness and clarity is was easy to see the > times IT had come to the foreground and then had slipped away because > it could not be clearly appreciated. Tom Exactly. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha:
> > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the whole
> > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, digital,
> > either "on or off"?
Unc:
> YES! That's exactly the issue.
> I realized that some time back, during the discussions
> about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom
> made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up
> with a new one that more accurately described my
> subjective experience.
A:
> > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not before.
U:
> Before. There has never been a moment in my life when
> I was not enlightened.
That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. First, I
see no value in labels such as enlightenment. It can create
distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can create false
egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is?
I just never appreciated it
> until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit-
> nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since
> then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to
> background many times, but what I realized during the
> 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been
> present. What I realized when I first appreciated it
> was that it had *always* been present.
A:
yes, all that is good. And similar. But if one wanted to play the
labels game, it would seem that when the attention of Awareness (of
awareness) slips from foreground to background, its not E. But I
think E labels are bogus, so who cares. Claim all you want. :)
A:
> > And it can be delicate at first, and fade (yellow dye and cloth
anyone?) and become "overshadowed". But it keeps coming back.
Sometimes more noticable, sometimes present only when one notices it
--- "where are my glasses?" ("you are wearng them, silly") is a good
analogy.
U:
> And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from
> background to foreground any time you want. It's just
> the neatest thing.
A:
YES. And it is always accessable. It is bitchin. Still, in that
stage, I would hold that is not E. If I was playing the label game.
U:
> The thing that brought it from background to foreground
> most recently was, strangely enough, watching an old
> movie on DVD. It was Roger Corman's, "The Raven," which
> starred Vincent Price, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, and
> a young guy in one of his first film roles, as Peter
> Lorre's son. This young actor was SO bad that it made
> you want to cringe. It was just amazing to watch. It
> was like I was watching a brilliant actor brilliantly
> playing the part of the worst actor ever filmed.
>
> I was. It was Jack Nicholson. The thing is, he was a
> great actor even then. He just didn't appreciate it,
> so his range was limited, and he clung to old ideas of
> being a bad actor, trapped by ignorance and inexperience.
> It wasn't true. All that he ever became was already
> present, just not appreciated, and thus unused.
Nice example.
> That's the thing that is striking me about all these
> conversations last night and this morning. Some people
> who have learned to appreciate what has always been
> present are talking to others who have not. The ones
> who have not appreciated their own enlightenment are
> playing a role, clinging to the illusion of their
> ignorance as strongly as Jack was clinging to the
> illusion of being a bad actor in The Raven. It's
> all very, very, very, very funny.
Perhaps I am viewed as one of those. I just am not interested in the
label game. Labels are not real. Experience and Understanding are
real. And both are spectral - extending along a long/wide spectrum.
But for scientific measurement purposes, which may have some value, I
would "label" E as continual foreground of PC. All thes other "states"
stages we have talked about are nice developments.
Thats why I think "E" has been highly devalued in these neo-advaita
years. Its drawing a target around the already shot arrow. "I am here,
so this must be the goal." I am old skewl perhaps. I think there are
actual classic "standards" that few I am aware of have met. But many
poo poo and label such as inaccurate, out of date, and/or stemming
from a "bad translation".
All are having fine experiences. That does not make them E. But if it
gets someone off, or satifies some ego need, they should go for it.
I am happy with my experiences. I am not denying anything. Except
devaluation and BS.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Akasha: > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the whole > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"? > > Unc: > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > subjective experience. > > A: > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not before. > > U: > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > I was not enlightened. > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they come back, they were wrong. I have long suggested that we run some tests on the self-proclaimed Es. Push'em off a cliff. And if they don't come back, we will celebrate their saintliness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years > > > > and then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total > > > > light, is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people > > > > keep insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a > > > > degree. It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still > > > > inaccurately, we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > > > > > That's certainly been my experience. And it's > > > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > > > > So, to clarify (my understanding), its not that you don't want to be > > overshadowed (as in a permanent state of "overshadowment"). Its not > > that Awareness is not (never) present. Its that you simply want to > > be overshadowed less often. That you want Awareness to be Aware / > > present more often. > > Sure, preferably all the time, but I'll take > whatever I can get! > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > "goes away." Still laughing uncontrollably. It's all about what "you" "want" rather than what is. If you only learned to appreciate what already is, you'd have what you want. The longer "you" "wants" it, the further away it gets. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Akasha:
> > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the
whole paradigm about enlightenment on this list is
> > > dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"?
>
> Unc:
> > YES! That's exactly the issue.
>
> > I realized that some time back, during the discussions
> > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom
> > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up
> > with a new one that more accurately described my
> > subjective experience.
>
> A:
> > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not
> > > before.
>
> U:
> > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when
> > I was not enlightened.
>
> That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ.
> First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment.
Me, either. I was just using the terminology already
being used in these discussions.
> It can create
> distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can create
> false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is?
Giving some people who are anxious for the "title"
something to do with their time? :-)
> > I just never appreciated it
> > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit-
> > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since
> > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to
> > background many times, but what I realized during the
> > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been
> > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it
> > was that it had *always* been present.
>
> A:
> yes, all that is good. And similar. But if one wanted to play the
> labels game, it would seem that when the attention of Awareness (of
> awareness) slips from foreground to background, its not E. But I
> think E labels are bogus, so who cares. Claim all you want. :)
No claims, merely reporting. And having fun.
> A:
> > > And it can be delicate at first, and fade (yellow dye and cloth
> anyone?) and become "overshadowed". But it keeps coming back.
> Sometimes more noticable, sometimes present only when one notices
> it --- "where are my glasses?" ("you are wearng them, silly") is
> a good analogy.
>
> U:
> > And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from
> > background to foreground any time you want. It's just
> > the neatest thing.
>
> A:
> YES. And it is always accessable. It is bitchin. Still, in that
> stage, I would hold that is not E. If I was playing the label game.
I no longer make that distinction. Lately I've discovered
a few fairly foolproof methods of bringing it from back-
ground to foreground anytime I want. The thing is, I
rarely want to. As someone -- perhaps you -- said in
these discussions, there is no difference. The "wanting"
there to be one feels false, whereas the appreciation of
what is already going on feels non-false.
> U:
> > The thing that brought it from background to foreground
> > most recently was, strangely enough, watching an old
> > movie on DVD. It was Roger Corman's, "The Raven," which
> > starred Vincent Price, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, and
> > a young guy in one of his first film roles, as Peter
> > Lorre's son. This young actor was SO bad that it made
> > you want to cringe. It was just amazing to watch. It
> > was like I was watching a brilliant actor brilliantly
> > playing the part of the worst actor ever filmed.
> >
> > It was. It was Jack Nicholson. The thing is, he was a
> > great actor even then. He just didn't appreciate it,
> > so his range was limited, and he clung to old ideas of
> > being a bad actor, trapped by ignorance and inexperience.
> > It wasn't true. All that he ever became was already
> > present, just not appreciated, and thus unused.
>
> Nice example.
Funny movie, funnier for his performance. :-)
> > That's the thing that is striking me about all these
> > conversations last night and this morning. Some people
> > who have learned to appreciate what has always been
> > present are talking to others who have not. The ones
> > who have not appreciated their own enlightenment are
> > playing a role, clinging to the illusion of their
> > ignorance as strongly as Jack was clinging to the
> > illusion of being a bad actor in The Raven. It's
> > all very, very, very, very funny.
>
> Perhaps I am viewed as one of those.
"Those?" If I viewed you as anything, which I don't
think I do, it would be as one of the people who has
learned to appreciate what has already been present.
> I just am not interested in the
> label game. Labels are not real.
The map is not the territory. I think what's going
on here is that Judy is more attached to being able
to say, "Ah...finally...I have the map," than in
actually getting to the place it points to. And
the last couple of days that's been striking me as
just hilarious, side-splittingly funny.
> Experience and Understanding are
> real. And both are spectral -
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Akasha: > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the whole > > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, > digital, either "on or off"? > > > > Unc: > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > subjective experience. > > > > A: > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If > > > > not before. > > > > U: > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > I was not enlightened. > > > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. That's just Hindu dogma, not accepted by everyone in the reincarnation business. > A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, > reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they come > back, they were wrong. Just dogma. I see three possibilities for the fully enlightened being at the time of death. They could choose to do the "drop back into the ocean" thing and not incarnate, they could choose to incarnate for the purpose of helping other sentient beings, or they could choose not to choose and just see what happens. This is actually a pretty standard Buddhist way of seeing the situation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
[...] > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, IIRC. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Akasha: > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the whole > > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, > digital, either "on or off"? > > > > Unc: > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > subjective experience. > > > > A: > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not before. > > > > U: > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > I was not enlightened. > > > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. > > A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, > reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they come > back, they were wrong. > So much for bodhisatvas? > I have long suggested that we run some tests on the self-proclaimed > Es. Push'em off a cliff. And if they don't come back, we will > celebrate their saintliness. MMY once commented, or so I am told, that the sidhis would be an eye- opener to many who felt they were fully enlightened. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Akasha: > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > whole > > > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, > > digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > Unc: > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > A: > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > before. > > > > > > U: > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. > > > > A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, > > reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they come > > back, they were wrong. > > > > So much for bodhisatvas? > > > I have long suggested that we run some tests on the self- proclaimed > > Es. Push'em off a cliff. And if they don't come back, we will > > celebrate their saintliness. > > MMY once commented, or so I am told, that the sidhis would be an eye- > opener to many who felt they were fully enlightened. Pun not intended... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that > > the > > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual > > process, > > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that > > belief. > > > > MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, > > IIRC. > > It appears to be a gradual process from the side of > avidya. What is being experienced is the gradual > increase of sattva as the body and mind are purified. > When consciousness stops projecting into and > identifying with boundaries and "awakens" to itself > then it becomes self-evident that there was no gradual > process of enlightenment; that this has "always been". > But of course, prior to this realization, talking this > way just leads to the moodmaking of advaita, not > practicing yogic techniques and the continuation of a > falsehood-avidya. Not necessarily. "Talking this way" is merely talking that way, which is completely accurate from a particular point of view. Neither the talking or the POV implies any actions on the part of the person, nor any beliefs. In my case, I could talk from this POV one moment and another the next, and see absolutely no conflict. Taking a POV is simply taking a POV. Some folks like to read more into it. >From one point of view, there has never been a moment in my entire life at which I was not enlightened. >From another, there was definitely a moment in my life in which I first clearly experienced enlightenment. Since then, that clarity has come and gone, and become more or less "full." >From yet another point of view, I do not believe in the concept of "full enlightenment" at all. I do not believe that there is an "end point" to evolution or a point at which anyone could be declared to be "fully enlightened." >From one point of view, there could appear to be a point at which I was not enlightened. From another point of view, no such point ever existed. From one point of view, there could appear to be some kind of subjective difference between 'before' and 'after.' From another, there is no difference whatsoever. ALL of these statements are completely true, and express my subjective experiences perfectly, just seen from different points of view. If you want to see contradictions in them, that's YOUR point of view. Knowledge is structured in POV. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
>akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and >> then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, is >> funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep insisting IT >> is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. It comes and >> goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, we move into it, >> and then get bounced out. Judy wrote: >And it's > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. Vaj wrote: There are gradual paths and there are sudden paths. Tom T: I can not remember the author but believe it was Nisargadatta who said,"It is always gradual until it is sudden". WHich certainly leaves open "All Possibilities". Most of us on the TMO path seem to have been given the slow and gradual path. No complaint, just an observation from those I have met. TOm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha 108 writes:snipped from long interchange with Unc That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment. It can create distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can create false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is? Tom T: I really have a problem with that E word for two reasons. One it carries such tremendous baggage that it does all of what Akasha has said above without anyone knowing it does. The second reason is that in western society the word light is totally enmeshed with the concept of switch/on/off. It is subtle but implies something not intended by the Rishis of old as they had no switches to link up with light. For me the word Awake is pretty simple and conveys my understanding that PC is in the foreground all the time along with whatever else is going on. It is as good a descriptor as any other word. Maybe Akasha can come up with a different word. No need to label but definately IT needs some language to describe what is going on without a fifty word description plus another fifty word disclaimer. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I really have a problem with that E word for two reasons. One it > carries such tremendous baggage that it does all of what Akasha > has said above without anyone knowing it does. I completely agree. I think that the term should be thrown away and replaced with something with no meaning whatsoever. > The second reason is that in western society the word light > is totally enmeshed with the concept of switch/on/off. Not to mention the negative Western association of "dark" and "darkness" with an absence of light. > It is subtle but implies something not intended by > the Rishis of old as they had no switches to link up with > light. You must've had a real low-rent cave. Mine had electric lights and hot and cold running water and 24-hour cave service. :-) > For me the word Awake is pretty simple and conveys my > understanding that PC is in the foreground all the time > along with whatever else is going on. But it doesn't work universally as a metaphor, again because people think in terms of opposites, and polarities. When most people hear the word 'awake,' in the back of their minds they think that the antonym is 'asleep,' as in deep sleep, as in the absence of all subjective experience. This doesn't map to the distinction between 'before realization' and 'after realization.' > It is as good a descriptor as any other word. I'm not convinced, for the reasons stated above and others. I don't have a better suggestion at this point, but I'll ponder it. In my cave. I'll order some pizza from cave service and think about it over lunch. :-) > Maybe Akasha can > come up with a different word. No need to label but definately > IT needs some language to describe what is going on without a > fifty word description plus another fifty word disclaimer. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the whole *problem* is with people trying to come up with labels for something that can never be labeled. Maybe the whole *problem* is trying to reduce something that can *never* be described to a fifty-word description. Unless you come up with a completely made-up word that has no connotations for *anyone*, you're going to run into the problem of pre-associations with that word. If you make up a new one, you're going to run into the need to try to define it, something that can never be done. Someone on another spiritual forum I participate in once misplaced his fingers on the keyboard and typed 'enkughtenment' instead of 'enlightenment.' It spawned a very funny exchange, but the term stuck around. Now we tend to use 'enkughtenment' in these discussions because everyone knows the phenomenon we're trying to talk about, but without any of the preconceptions associated with other terms. Besides, it helps people to lighten up, which is always a good thing. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'll order some pizza from cave service and think about it over > lunch. :-) Dude, if you are living in Paris and you order up take-out pizza -- you are not only way UnAwake, you are a gastronomic baffoon. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Judy: > > I don't recall having read anyone saying here > > that you meditate for many years with no > > discernible change and then suddenly be in > > CC, at least not as the standard pattern with > > TM. But I could have missed it. > > Its diologues over the past 3-4 years. And its not an explicit claim. > But strongly imlpied -- so much so, I see no other possibility than > the underlying premise being held that one meditates for many years > with no discernible change and then suddenly be in CC. That is, there > little acknowlegement by some that there is regular and "strong" PC > "in" foreground by many. Contrary to the "pontificators" implied > singular claims to the experience. > > > The other dogma, that you can just *decide* to > > become suddenly enlightened, we've been seeing > > a lot. > > yes. Reminds me of EST. Even est had a method to sort of shock people into it. The whole "training" was one big koan, it seems to me: the first weekend, they convinced you that you had total control over everything; the second weekend, they convinced you that you had no control over anything. Actually they *demonstrated* both were the case, in turn. That quasi-experiential contradiction was enough, apparently, to push some folks into the "gap," to "get it." And it seems that for at least a few, it stuck. At any rate, it wasn't a decision, really. You were pretty much forced into it. That makes some sense to me, but it wasn't universally effective. Some folks never "got it," and for others it made a big difference for a while but then faded. I did think the approach was ingenious. (Caveat: I never took the training, but I had several friends who did and talked to them about it a great deal, also read about it a lot. The above is what it seemed to me to boil down to. Graduates would probably rake me over the coals for thinking I had any idea of what was involved.) Oddly, I've never encountered any est graduates that I know of among TMers. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Beautiful. A few comments interleaved below.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Akasha:
> > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the
> whole paradigm about enlightenment on this list is
> > > > dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"?
> >
> > Unc:
> > > YES! That's exactly the issue.
> >
> > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions
> > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom
> > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up
> > > with a new one that more accurately described my
> > > subjective experience.
> >
> > A:
> > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not
> > > > before.
> >
> > U:
> > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when
> > > I was not enlightened.
> >
> > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ.
> > First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment.
>
> Me, either. I was just using the terminology already
> being used in these discussions.
>
> > It can create
> > distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can create
> > false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is?
>
> Giving some people who are anxious for the "title"
> something to do with their time? :-)
>
> > > I just never appreciated it
> > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit-
> > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since
> > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to
> > > background many times, but what I realized during the
> > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been
> > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it
> > > was that it had *always* been present.
> >
> > A:
> > yes, all that is good. And similar. But if one wanted to play the
> > labels game, it would seem that when the attention of Awareness
(of
> > awareness) slips from foreground to background, its not E. But I
> > think E labels are bogus, so who cares. Claim all you want. :)
>
> No claims, merely reporting. And having fun.
>
> > A:
> > > > And it can be delicate at first, and fade (yellow dye and
cloth
> > anyone?) and become "overshadowed". But it keeps coming back.
> > Sometimes more noticable, sometimes present only when one
notices
> > it --- "where are my glasses?" ("you are wearng them, silly") is
> > a good analogy.
> >
> > U:
> > > And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from
> > > background to foreground any time you want. It's just
> > > the neatest thing.
> >
> > A:
> > YES. And it is always accessable. It is bitchin. Still, in that
> > stage, I would hold that is not E. If I was playing the label
game.
>
> I no longer make that distinction.
YES
>Lately I've discovered
> a few fairly foolproof methods of bringing it from back-
> ground to foreground anytime I want. The thing is, I
> rarely want to. As someone -- perhaps you -- said in
> these discussions, there is no difference. The "wanting"
> there to be one feels false, whereas the appreciation of
> what is already going on feels non-false.
YES!
> > U:
> > > The thing that brought it from background to foreground
> > > most recently was, strangely enough, watching an old
> > > movie on DVD. It was Roger Corman's, "The Raven," which
> > > starred Vincent Price, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, and
> > > a young guy in one of his first film roles, as Peter
> > > Lorre's son. This young actor was SO bad that it made
> > > you want to cringe. It was just amazing to watch. It
> > > was like I was watching a brilliant actor brilliantly
> > > playing the part of the worst actor ever filmed.
> > >
> > > It was. It was Jack Nicholson. The thing is, he was a
> > > great actor even then. He just didn't appreciate it,
> > > so his range was limited, and he clung to old ideas of
> > > being a bad actor, trapped by ignorance and inexperience.
> > > It wasn't true. All that he ever became was already
> > > present, just not appreciated, and thus unused.
> >
> > Nice example.
>
> Funny movie, funnier for his performance. :-)
>
> > > That's the thing that is striking me about all these
> > > conversations last night and this morning. Some people
> > > who have learned to appreciate what has always been
> > > present are talking to others who have not. The ones
> > > who have not appreciated their own enlightenment are
> > > playing a role, clinging to the illusion of their
> > > ignorance as strongly as Jack was clinging to the
> > > illusion of being a bad actor in The Raven. It's
> > > all very, very, very, very funny.
> >
> > Perhaps I am viewed as one of those.
>
> "Those?" If I viewed you as anything, which I don't
> think I do, it would be as one of the people who has
> learned to appreciate what has already been present.
>
> > I just am not interested in the
> > label game. Labels are
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I'll order some pizza from cave service and think > > about it over lunch. :-) > > Dude, if you are living in Paris and you order up take-out pizza -- > you are not only way UnAwake, you are a gastronomic baffoon. :) Yesterday the seminar I was attending was at the Ritz. Had I ordered pizza from their room service, you can rest assured that it would have been better than anything you could find at *any* restaurant in the US other than about a dozen of them. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It appears to be a gradual process from the side of > avidya. What is being experienced is the gradual > increase of sattva as the body and mind are purified. Yes, while Sattwa is still subtly "mistaken" for our Self, and we are desiring clarity and not fully appreciating ignorance, we are yet reacting to and entangled in the gunas, in experience, in self and other -- we still believe ourselves bound to space, at the mercy of time: still on the merry-go-round :-) > When consciousness stops projecting into and > identifying with boundaries and "awakens" to itself > then it becomes self-evident Great term :-) >that there was no gradual > process of enlightenment; that this has "always been". > But of course, prior to this realization, talking this > way just leads to the moodmaking of advaita, not > practicing yogic techniques and the continuation of a > falsehood-avidya. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [...] > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. > > MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, IIRC. Right. So why would any TMer hold the belief that it was (generally or always) *not* a gradual process? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 9/27/05 7:13 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> To hold, as some appear to, that we meditate for 20-30 years and > >> then one day, the room goes from total darkness to total light, > >> is funny, in a charming way. So to the extent people keep > >> insisting IT is already there, they are correct -- to a degree. > >> It comes and goes. Or more corectly, though still inaccurately, > >> we move into it, and then get bounced out. > > > >And it's > > definitely progressive, as you suggest later. > > There are gradual paths and there are sudden paths. As I believe I said. Above, I was describing my own experience. You snipped the part (without noting it) that made this clear, apparently to make it appear I was making a general statement that you could "correct." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The map is not the territory. I think what's going > on here is that Judy is more attached to being able > to say, "Ah...finally...I have the map," than in > actually getting to the place it points to. And > the last couple of days that's been striking me as > just hilarious, side-splittingly funny. It seems to me that your need to find me hilariously funny (or at least to *say* so publicly) is leading you to make up all this stuff about what's going on with me so you have something to laugh at, instead of seeing what is *actually* going on with me. For example: > If what one wanted to do was measure such a thing > "scientifically," that sounds like a good definition. > If what one wanted was a happy life, I'd say it was > pretty darned unproductive, because you couldd be > setting up for yourself the same kind of self-imposed > misery Judy's wallowing in. This *I* find hilarious. Not only am I not even remotely "miserable," I'm happier than I've ever been and continue to be more so as time goes on. Barry, you made up "wallowing in misery." You jest at scars that never felt a wound. That's something you have talked yourself into believing--or at least think will make you look good and me look bad to say here. That notion comes entirely from *your need*, not from my reality. And for the record: > I would say that experience was far more "real" than > understanding. The more experiences I have of higher > states of attention, the less I understand. And the > happier I am. Go figure. This is my experience as well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In > FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For me the word Awake is pretty simple and conveys my > > understanding that PC is in the foreground all the time > > along with whatever else is going on. > > But it doesn't work universally as a metaphor, again > because people think in terms of opposites, and > polarities. When most people hear the word 'awake,' > in the back of their minds they think that the antonym > is 'asleep,' as in deep sleep, as in the absence of > all subjective experience. This doesn't map to the > distinction between 'before realization' and 'after > realization.' In my observation, when this metaphor is used the antonym tends to be dreaming, not deep sleep, which is a much closer mapping. (Not perefect, because when you wake up from a dream, you don't usually say, "Oh, now I see that I was really awake the whole time.") Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The only reason it is said in advaitist circles that "we are already > enlightened" is that from the perspective of the experience of the > non-dual state it is recognized "it was always like this, this is an > unborn state, it was always sparkling through, I just didn't get > it". The problem arises when people who try to extrapolate the > statement "we are already enlightened" bass-ackwards from waking > state POV and proclaim "I am already enlightened". Precisely. It ain't backwards-compatible. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > [...] > > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. > > > > MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, IIRC. > > Right. So why would any TMer hold the belief that it > was (generally or always) *not* a gradual process? Our experience is that it is gradual until it is not. I am offering the "not" :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And for the record: > > > I would say that experience was far more "real" than > > understanding. The more experiences I have of higher > > states of attention, the less I understand. And the > > happier I am. Go figure. > > This is my experience as well. Yes, I love this about you :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > And for the record: > > > I would say that experience was far more "real" than > > understanding. The more experiences I have of higher > > states of attention, the less I understand. And the > > happier I am. Go figure. > > This is my experience as well. Well, good for you. I'll put a star next to your name on the list of kindergarten students. Earn ten stars and you get to be "hall monitor." If you were attempting to make me find you less amusing, I am afraid the attempt was a dismal failure. :-) It's not just you. I've been finding that more and more of the posts here make me laugh. I see this as progress. Your mileage may vary... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 9/28/05 9:50 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > As I believe I said. Above, I was describing my own > > experience. You snipped the part (without noting it) > > that made this clear, apparently to make it appear I > > was making a general statement that you could > > "correct." > > Yes it was a technique I learned at the Judy Stein Conspiracy > Conference, which of course is held secretly. We are all conspiring > secretly to undermine you via selective snipping of your emails--but > you're just so quick! I've even tried putting in typos to distract > you, but to no avail. Actually most folks here are pretty good about not snipping crucial context, and about indicating it when they do snip something. As I said, I had already made the point you made in your "response," and I had made it clear immediately before the part you *did* quote that I was speaking about my own experience. Perhaps you could explain why you made those snips, if not for the reason I suggested. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > And for the record: > > > > > I would say that experience was far more "real" than > > > understanding. The more experiences I have of higher > > > states of attention, the less I understand. And the > > > happier I am. Go figure. > > > > This is my experience as well. > > Well, good for you. I'll put a star next to > your name on the list of kindergarten students. > Earn ten stars and you get to be "hall monitor." > > If you were attempting to make me find you less > amusing, I am afraid the attempt was a dismal > failure. :-) Knock yourself out. I didn't expect that you would change your fantasies about me just because I pointed out that they were entirely divorced from reality. You *need* to think of me as being miserable and as focusing entirely on understanding rather than experience. If I were you, I'd look into that need. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > Akasha: > > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > > whole > > > > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, > > > digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > > > Unc: > > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > > > A: > > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > before. > > > > > > > > U: > > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > > > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. > > > > > > A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, > > > reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they > come > > > back, they were wrong. > > > > > > > So much for bodhisatvas? > > > > > I have long suggested that we run some tests on the self- > proclaimed > > > Es. Push'em off a cliff. And if they don't come back, we will > > > celebrate their saintliness. > > > > MMY once commented, or so I am told, that the sidhis would be an > eye- > > opener to many who felt they were fully enlightened. > > Pun not intended... How do you know he was/is right? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
> > Akasha: > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > > before. > > > > Uuc: > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > I was not enlightened. A: > > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. Again, I see no value in labels such as "enlightenment". But it appears to me your reporting is what you did below, "when the 24/7 witnessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to background many times" Terming that as "E", to me, goes beyond reportiing. its labeling. And since it differs from what many understand that term to be, it simply promotes miscommunication. U: > > > I just never appreciated it > > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit- > > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since > > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to > > > background many times, but what I realized during the > > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been > > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it > > > was that it had *always* been present. > > > > A: > > yes, all that is good. And similar. But if one wanted to play the > > labels game, it would seem that when the attention of Awareness (of awareness) slips from foreground to background, its not E. But I think E labels are bogus, so who cares. Claim all you want. :) U: > No claims, merely reporting. And having fun. A: Well, fun is good. This discussion is fun and not a challenge. And resonable people can view the same things differently. But labels (above) is different from a "term" which can facilite communication. Some don't appear to distinguish between labels and terms, which seems unfortunate. The term E is a rolled up abstraction. A symbol for some experience. When all share the same understanding of the symbol, it can facilitate communication. When people make up their own definitions, which is fine IMO, but without clearly demarcing how such differs from common usage, the symbol loses its value, it becomes counter productive. So while I agree with Tom, in a later post, that some commonly agreed upon terminology is good. Which is my whole whole point here. And, agreeing with Tom, its nice to have a concise term and not a 50 word discriptor and 50 word disclaiamer. It just seem that using a symbol, particularly ones with heavy baggage and multiple and different connotations to many people, is not productive. "E" is such, and I find "Awake" hs become such. And as Unc points out, if the symbol has an opposite, has most do. Both are counter productive, IMO. Thus I favor just saying what is, instead of relying on unreliable intermediary symbols. For example, "constant foreground PC" expresses a specific "state", is relatively concise (could be shortened to CFPC), and is immediately distinguishable from Variable Foreground PC or Oscillating Foreground PC. And is clearly distinguishable from Unity Brahman states where All is "experienced / understood" as CFPC, "That Brahman is the same as THIS Atman". I have no issue, if its relevant to a discussion for someone to say "CFPC is there". No label or title, just concise terminology. Much clearer and cleaner than "I am E" > > U: > > > And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from > > > background to foreground any time you want. It's just > > > the neatest thing. > > > > A: > > YES. And it is always accessable. It is bitchin. Still, in that > > stage, I would hold that is not E. If I was playing the label game. U: > I no longer make that distinction. A: Thats fine, but it implies that you hold that any initial experience of PC is E. Which is in a way true. "you are a knower of reality". But since for some then E means PC, for some CC and others BC. Its then not a particularly precise term. And it has label baggage. U: > a few fairly foolproof methods of bringing it from back- > ground to foreground anytime I want. A: I think VAj's "non-meditation" , relates to this. U: > The thing is, I > rarely want to. As someone -- perhaps you -- said in > these discussions, there is no difference. The "wanting" > there to be one feels false, A: I don't experience "want" in making that transition. Though I understand how a "logical proof" could indicate it must be there. Its just its not there in my experience. > > U: > > > The thing that brought it from background to foreground > > > most recently was, strangely enough, watching an old > > > movie on DVD. A: But I hope too you have recognized mush simpler and instantaneous methods. U: > The map is not the territory. I think what's going > on here is that Judy is more attached to being able > to say, "Ah...finally...I have the map," than in > actually getting to the place it points to. A: I think its way easier and productive to talk about oneself than to try to diagnose what one percieves to be anohter's problems
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha: > > yes. Reminds me of EST. Judy: > Even est had a method to sort of shock people into > it. The whole "training" was one big koan, it seems > to me: the first weekend, they convinced you that you > had total control over everything; the second weekend, > they convinced you that you had no control over > anything. Actually they *demonstrated* both were the > case, in turn. > > That quasi-experiential contradiction was enough, > apparently, to push some folks into the "gap," to > "get it." And it seems that for at least a few, > it stuck. > > At any rate, it wasn't a decision, really. You > were pretty much forced into it. That makes some > sense to me, but it wasn't universally effective. > Some folks never "got it," and for others it made > a big difference for a while but then faded. > > I did think the approach was ingenious. > > (Caveat: I never took the training, but I had several > friends who did and talked to them about it a great > deal, also read about it a lot. The above is what > it seemed to me to boil down to. Graduates would > probably rake me over the coals for thinking I had > any idea of what was involved.) Like you I never took it but talked to a number of people and friends who did. My general point at the time was that "words" and mind games might give some glimpse but is not permanent, not "deep". For that you need to "refine the physiology". Over the years, I am more open to lots of tools. I reacted against the AoL "cheesy", "new age" exercises -- staring and all, initially. After a while, I found most provided some benefit. All woven together, even more. But used without some transcendental sadhana, they seem limited. (Fortunately AoL has such.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > > "goes away." > > Still laughing uncontrollably. It's all about > what "you" "want" rather than what is. That's the way it is when Awareness is not "present." If you > only learned to appreciate what already is, > you'd have what you want. That's the way it is when Awareness *is* "present." Then I have the ability to appreciate what is. And that's why it's a pain when Awareness "goes away" and I no longer have that ability. > The longer "you" > "wants" it, the further away it gets. Not in my experience. As I said, Awareness has become more and more "present" and for longer and longer periods. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thus I favor just saying what is, instead of relying on unreliable > intermediary symbols. For example, "constant foreground PC" > expresses a specific "state", is relatively concise (could be > shortened to CFPC), and is immediately distinguishable from > Variable Foreground PC or Oscillating Foreground PC. What's the matter with MMY's term "CC"? That's just how he defines it. (Forget the spelled-out version, which is pretty meaningless.) Or "witnessing," if you're not talking about *permanent* CFPC. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > I'll order some pizza from cave service and think > > > about it over lunch. :-) > > > > Dude, if you are living in Paris and you order up take-out pizza -- > > you are not only way UnAwake, you are a gastronomic baffoon. :) > > Yesterday the seminar I was attending was at the Ritz. > Had I ordered pizza from their room service, you can > rest assured that it would have been better than > anything you could find at *any* restaurant in the > US other than about a dozen of them. :-) Actually, I lived in France for 3 or so months in 1970. French food was good, but a group of friends and I often frequented a great Italian Pizzeria. But in visiting Paris several times in the 90s +, I found some awesome cuisine and some so so. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Akasha: > > > yes. Reminds me of EST. > > Judy: > > Even est had a method to sort of shock people into > > it. The whole "training" was one big koan, it seems > > to me: the first weekend, they convinced you that you > > had total control over everything; the second weekend, > > they convinced you that you had no control over > > anything. Actually they *demonstrated* both were the > > case, in turn. > > > > That quasi-experiential contradiction was enough, > > apparently, to push some folks into the "gap," to > > "get it." And it seems that for at least a few, > > it stuck. > > > > At any rate, it wasn't a decision, really. You > > were pretty much forced into it. That makes some > > sense to me, but it wasn't universally effective. > > Some folks never "got it," and for others it made > > a big difference for a while but then faded. > > > > I did think the approach was ingenious. > > > > (Caveat: I never took the training, but I had several > > friends who did and talked to them about it a great > > deal, also read about it a lot. The above is what > > it seemed to me to boil down to. Graduates would > > probably rake me over the coals for thinking I had > > any idea of what was involved.) > > Like you I never took it but talked to a number of people and > friends who did. My general point at the time was that "words" and > mind games might give some glimpse but is not permanent, > not "deep". For that you need to "refine the physiology". I would agree, but suggest that some few people's physiology was already so refined that all they needed was the nudge to "awaken" permanently. I had the very strong sense that Werner Erhard was "enlightened," in CC at least--could be wrong, of course--and by his own account, it happened very suddenly, while he was driving on the freeway. Apparently he then tried to work backward to figure out how he had gotten there, and then how to recreate it for others. He had done some Zen, as I recall, and several other approaches--which may have helped refine *his* physiology--and he attempted to sort of put together bits and pieces of what he thought had worked for him, although I'm pretty sure he would have vehemently rejected the idea of physiological refinement having anything to do with anything. My understanding is that for a small number of people--several of whom subsequently became est trainers--it really was a permanent transformation. I don't know whether they'd done other stuff first, though. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Akasha: > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > > > before. > > > > > > Uuc: > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > I was not enlightened. > > A: > > > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. > > > Again, I see no value in labels such as "enlightenment". But it > appears to me your reporting is what you did below, "when the 24/7 > witnessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since then, that > witnessing has slipped from foreground to background many times" > > Terming that as "E", to me, goes beyond reportiing. its labeling. > And since it differs from what many understand that term to be, > it simply promotes miscommunication. Fine. I've already told you that the only reason I was using the E word was because it was already in play in the thread. I don't think that way. Call it enkughtenment if you like. :-) > U: > > > > I just never appreciated it > > > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit- > > > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since > > > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to > > > > background many times, but what I realized during the > > > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been > > > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it > > > > was that it had *always* been present. > > > > > > A: > > > yes, all that is good. And similar. But if one wanted to play > > > the labels game... Why on EARTH would anyone want to do that? :-) > ...it would seem that when the attention of Awareness > (of awareness) slips from foreground to background, its not E. Enlightenment or enkughtenment? You have to be specific if you want to play the label game. :-) > But I > think E labels are bogus, so who cares. Claim all you want. :) > > U: > > No claims, merely reporting. And having fun. > > A: Well, fun is good. This discussion is fun and not a challenge. > And resonable people can view the same things differently. If more people realized that, more discussions would be more fun. :-) > But labels (above) is different from a "term" which can facilite > communication. Some don't appear to distinguish between labels and > terms, which seems unfortunate. > > The term E is a rolled up abstraction. A symbol for some > experience. When all share the same understanding of the > symbol, it can facilitate communication. What makes you believe that they all share the same *experience*, and thus can agree on a symbol for it? > When people make up their own definitions, which is > fine IMO, but without clearly demarcing how such differs from > common usage, the symbol loses its value, it becomes counter > productive. Again, you seem to be assuming that everyone who realizes enlightenment is experiencing the same thing. I make no such assumption. > So while I agree with Tom, in a later post, that some commonly > agreed upon terminology is good. Only if you feel that you are of necessity discussing the exact same experience. > Which is my whole whole point here. Thanks. I had wondered. :-) > And, agreeing with Tom, its nice to have a concise term and not a > 50 word discriptor and 50 word disclaiamer. I've already proposed enkughtenment. It works very well on the other forum. :-) > It just seem that using a > symbol, particularly ones with heavy baggage and multiple and > different connotations to many people, is not productive. "E" > is such, and I find "Awake" hs become such. And as Unc points > out, if the symbol has an opposite, has most do. Both are counter > productive, IMO. Koan of the day: what is the antonym of enkughtenment? > Thus I favor just saying what is, instead of relying on unreliable > intermediary symbols. For example, "constant foreground PC" > expresses a specific "state", is relatively concise (could be > shortened to CFPC), and is immediately distinguishable from > Variable Foreground PC or Oscillating Foreground PC. And is > clearly distinguishable from Unity Brahman states where All > is "experienced / understood" as CFPC, "That Brahman is the > same as THIS Atman". Whatever floats your boat. In my view, all of these distinctions imply a belief in a somewhat linear pro- gression and a hierarchy of "higher" or "fuller" experiences of enkughtenment. Boring. Enkughtenment is its own reward, and attempts to bag what "level" of enkughtenment one has attained tend to be rewarded with enpieinfacement. :-) > I have no issue, if its relevant to a discussion for someone to say > "CFPC is there". No label or title, just concise terminology. Much > clearer and cleaner than "I am E" Whatever floats your boat. > > > U: > > > > And when you lighten up about it, you can bring it from > > > > background to foreground any time you want. It's just > > > > the neatest thing. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Thus I favor just saying what is, instead of relying on unreliable > > intermediary symbols. For example, "constant foreground PC" > > expresses a specific "state", is relatively concise (could be > > shortened to CFPC), and is immediately distinguishable from > > Variable Foreground PC or Oscillating Foreground PC. > > What's the matter with MMY's term "CC"? That's just how > he defines it. (Forget the spelled-out version, which is > pretty meaningless.) Or "witnessing," if you're not > talking about *permanent* CFPC. I think cc was a useful "symbol" for many years. Then in my view, it began to be copted. People focussed on their own defintions. Many flavors arose. It became a hodge podge IMO. Several times over the past 3 years, six months ago was the last foray, for the sake of terminology, and fun, I tried to pin people down on their defrinitions and whethere various attrributes were necessary and/or suffiecint for E. For example, is the experience of "no I" both a necessary and sufficent criteria. Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria for CC? Is absence of anger (per many scriptural references) a necessary criteria? I carried on a number of rounds of this, and could never get anyone, including all the proclaimers, to commit. But some "good" twisting the tables and making the discussion all about why I am a retard (paraphrsing) for seeking and not "Getting IT". All good fun. Thus I have concluded that symbols, particularly when multiple atributes and/or criteria may be associated with the symbol, are not useful terms. And are always useless as labels. Thus I like direct descriptors. "CFPC", "No-I". "equinimity in all situations". Much better terms to describe a state than symbols like CC and E. The latter are so nebulous they raise more questions than they "resolve" when used as terms. About as useful as saying, "I experience [blackbox]". Or "I experience X". Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > for CC? That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). It's a "symbol," but for a very specific experience. I don't see that your four- letter job is any better, as long as we know what the definition of "CC" is. That's all I'm saying. I agree with you that a lot of the other terms are problematic. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > > > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > > > "goes away." > > > > Still laughing uncontrollably. It's all about > > what "you" "want" rather than what is. > > That's the way it is when Awareness is not > "present." > > If you > > only learned to appreciate what already is, > > you'd have what you want. > > That's the way it is when Awareness *is* "present." > Then I have the ability to appreciate what is. > > And that's why it's a pain when Awareness "goes > away" and I no longer have that ability. To expand a bit: You said in another post that it feels "false" to you to "want" a higher state of attention. My experience is that it feels "false" to me to try to *create* appreciation for what already is. The appreciation is either there, or it isn't, spontaneously; and its "presence" and "absence" are very precisely correlated with the "presence" and "absence" of Awareness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > for CC? > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > experience. I don't see that your four- > letter job is any better, as long as we > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. Good. But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non-seeking way :) ) Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that definition? If so, I will re-sign up for the value of the term cc. Till, then I am think specific attribute desribptors are clearer. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness > > > > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it > > > > "goes away." > > > > > > Still laughing uncontrollably. It's all about > > > what "you" "want" rather than what is. > > > > That's the way it is when Awareness is not > > "present." > > > > If you > > > only learned to appreciate what already is, > > > you'd have what you want. > > > > That's the way it is when Awareness *is* "present." > > Then I have the ability to appreciate what is. > > > > And that's why it's a pain when Awareness "goes > > away" and I no longer have that ability. > > To expand a bit: You said in another post that it > feels "false" to you to "want" a higher state of > attention. Not so much "false" as completely unproductive. To do so takes one out of Now and into the realm of an imagined future that would be "better" if certain conditions were met. It's the issue of those "I'd rather be ..." bumper stickers I mentioned recently. The state of mind of "I'd rather be ..." is by definition not appreciating the Now, and setting up a set of circumstances that would "warrant" appreciation. In my experience, those who talk a lot about how things would be better in some imagined future if only suchandsuch would happen wind up never finding that future, and creating a series of Nows that are never perceived as fulfilling, because they're always waiting for suchandsuch. This is *particularly* true for those for whom suchandsuch = enlightenment, because they cannot possibly imagine what enlightenment is. If they could, they would be appreciating its presence right here, right Now, because it's already present, right here, right Now. Therefore they're not only putting off appreciation of Now until suchandsuch happens, but they are *imagining* what suchandsuch IS. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha: > > Terming that as "E", to me, goes beyond reporting. its labeling. > > And since it differs from what many understand that term to be, > > it simply promotes miscommunication. Unc: > Fine. I've already told you that the only reason I > was using the E word was because it was already in > play in the thread. I don't think that way. Call > it enkughtenment if you like. :-) A: I know. Some comments are not directly focused on You (which I am sure weakens the exposition given you are clealy the most interesting thing to talk about : ) ). Some are just points being made, relevant to the topic and thread. But its is a good call. When doing such, its good to clarify "I am making a general point here, and not talking specifically about you..." > > U: > > > No claims, merely reporting. And having fun. > > > > A: Well, fun is good. This discussion is fun and not a challenge. > > And resonable people can view the same things differently. U: > If more people realized that, more discussions would > be more fun. :-) A: Yes. Fun is good. Clarifying is good. Provocative POVs can be good. Insights are good. Letting go is good. Jabbing people is not so good. Responding to jabs is not so good. Diagnosing motives in others is not so good. Unsolicited advice is not so good. Pontification (like I am doing here) is not so good. :) A: > > But labels (above) is different from a "term" which can facilite > > communication. Some don't appear to distinguish between labels and > > terms, which seems unfortunate. > > > > The term E is a rolled up abstraction. A symbol for so me > > experience. When all share the same understanding of the > > symbol, it can facilitate communication. U: > What makes you believe that they all share the > *experience*, and thus can agree on a symbol for it? A: Ah, a many paths, many peaks guy. I am pretty open to that. But I think you are making the same point. For many reasons, not all share the same understanding of the symbol, and perhaps are "describing" a different experience, and thus broad semantic symbols in metaphysical discussions usually do not facilitate communication. A: > > When people make up their own definitions, which is > > fine IMO, but without clearly demarcing how such differs from > > common usage, the symbol loses its value, it becomes counter > > productive. U: > Again, you seem to be assuming that everyone who > realizes enlightenment is experiencing the same > thing. I make no such assumption. A:No, that assumptions is not necessary for the above view. And second, I am not even making that assumption. A:> > So while I agree with Tom, in a later post, that some commonly > > agreed upon terminology is good. U:> Only if you feel that you are of necessity discussing > the exact same experience. A: Well thats sort of the point. Is Foreground PC often present for you? Me too. So we can talk about FPC. Thus FPC is a useful term that facilitates communication. Same convo, different terms. yogi 1: I am enlightened. yogi 2: I am not. and you are an arrogant pompous ass for proclaiming such. 1: You just dont get it dude. 2: Your mother dont get it dude! I get it cuz i am beyond seeking for empty concepts. 1: Thats because you are not special and not enlightened. When you join the club, you will get it 2: F you. 1: no F you!! And your sister is ugly. - I think think the first convo is more useful. You may not. Go figure. > > Which is my whole whole point here. > > Thanks. I had wondered. :-) yes, your mind does seem fuzzy. :) A: > > And, agreeing with Tom, its nice to have a concise term and not a > > 50 word discriptor and 50 word disclaiamer. U: > I've already proposed enkughtenment. It works very > well on the other forum. :-) A: I would not think it would wrok well here in that people would still have many different connoations for the word. Does it mean "no-I"? "CFPC" "Deep and cosntant compassion" Equinamity in all conditions? Allof these? Any of these? Some of these? None of these. > > It just seem that using a > > symbol, particularly ones with heavy baggage and multiple and > > different connotations to many people, is not productive. "E" > > is such, and I find "Awake" hs become such. And as Unc points > > out, if the symbol has an opposite, has most do. Both are counter > > productive, IMO. > > Koan of the day: what is the antonym of enkughtenment? tnemnethgukne. :) > > > Thus I favor just saying what is, instead of relying on unreliable > > intermediary symbols. For example, "constant foreground PC" > > expresses a specific "state", is relatively concise (could be > > shortened to CFPC), and is immediately distinguishable from > > Variable Foreground PC or Oscillating Foreground PC. And is > > clearly distinguishable from Unity Brahman states where All > > is "experienced / understood" as CFPC, "That Brahman is the > > same as THIS Atman". > > Whatever floats
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A: Ah, then we seem to be talking the same thing. > > Its odd though, I keep saying "no labels, enjoy the (non)-trip" and > you keep saying "if you drop the labels, then you can enjoy the > continuum." Sounds the same to me. > > But the tone seems argumentative, in a friendly way. Perhaps its a > classic case of presuming (falsely) what the other is thinking. Actually, I'm just having fun. I *only* engage in discussions of enlightenment for fun, because I honestly don't believe that anything more can or should be expected of them. They're just a bunch of hot air moving around, accomplishing nothing. And that's FINE, as long as you know that what you're doing is just moving around hot air, for the express purpose of having fun. If one of the parties believes that something's going to actually be settled or accomplished as a result of moving all that air around, for me it becomes less fun. > Actually, I think its more each of us responding to snippets, > without focusing on the forest -- what is this guys main point, > beyond his snippet response raps. I may be a harder case than that. I don't particularly CARE what the other person's point is in discussions of enlightenment, because I don't think that there are any points TO be made, other than having fun. This implies no disrespect for the person spouting their particular theories, merely a disbelief that the theories have anything whatsoever to do with reality. > > > I think clear terms can facilitate discussion. > > U: > > But what does the discussion facilitate? > > A: Well, it happens. its value -- maybe none. But you suggested > you have gained great value from recent discussions here. So you > tell me. Something someone said triggered a train of thought that resulted in a different way of seeing. That was fun. The new way of seeing -- the new theory about enlightenment and my own experiences -- is more fun for me to entertain, because it "covers more bases" than the previous incarnations of the theory. But it's still a theory, and thus, when talking about enlightenment -- WRONG. I *assume* that it is wrong. I entertain such theories merely for amusement purposes, not to convince myself that they are correct. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Judy: > > To expand a bit: You said in another post that it > > feels "false" to you to "want" a higher state of > > attention. Unc: > Not so much "false" as completely unproductive. > To do so takes one out of Now Akahsa: Then perhaps the "attention" that can maintain PC in foreground is not so strong and flexible yet. It can grow stronger and let one think and do many things without losing the foreground view. I know this is not news. But your experience appears fragile. Don't dispair It can grow stronger. :) U: > The state of mind of "I'd > rather be ..." is by definition not appreciating > the Now, and setting up a set of circumstances > that would "warrant" appreciation. A: But tools and stable states are different. Coming back to the Now is a powerful tool. When Presence is strong in the foreground, the mind is alway present, and be so so even when focusing is on "planning" -- which is just "content" -- no different in essential structure than "present content". The distinction is "does the mind get sucked into "wanting" feeling it needs something more to be satisfied"? Then coming back to the presnt is a powerful tool. When the mind is content and doesn't feel a need for more to be complete, then any content can be maintained along with Presence. Thats my experience. Your NS maybe wired differently. Your implied premise appears, I may be wrong, is that Judy is in that fragile state. Maybe she is maybe she isn't. Offering absolute emphatic advice without know, seems iffy. U: > In my experience, those who talk a lot about how > things would be better in some imagined future > if only suchandsuch would happen wind up never > finding that future, and creating a series of > Nows that are never perceived as fulfilling, > because they're always waiting for suchandsuch. A: And you know there internal states,"for sure"? Or are you speculating thuis is the case? U: > This is *particularly* true for those for whom > suchandsuch = enlightenment, because they cannot > possibly imagine what enlightenment is. A: Why not then just drop all discussions and concepts of E. Then, if suchandsuch is relevant to a discussion, suchandsuch can be discussed. U: > If they could, they would be appreciating its presence > right here, A: "if they could" is often symtematic of projection. It manifests as frequent correcting other peoples lives, when the real issue is, one is uncomfortble with some area in themselves that they are correcting in others. Probably doesn't apply to you. But projection is facinating. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
A: > > > > I think clear terms can facilitate discussion. > > > > U: > > > But what does the discussion facilitate? > > > > A: Well, it happens. its value -- maybe none. But you suggested > > you have gained great value from recent discussions here. So you > > tell me. U: > Something someone said triggered a train of thought > that resulted in a different way of seeing. That > was fun. The new way of seeing -- the new theory > about enlightenment and my own experiences -- is > more fun for me to entertain ... A: Yes. Thats similar to why I engage in some discussions -- asides from being neurotic and suffering compulsive disorders. :). Not to find Truth, or win consensus. But the process of reading posts can spark an idea or insight, and the process of translating that spark into words can "teach" one many things they did not know. The actual dialogue is sort of secondary and in the background. because it "covers > more bases" than the previous incarnations of the > theory. But it's still a theory, and thus, when > talking about enlightenment -- WRONG. I *assume* > that it is wrong. I entertain such theories merely > for amusement purposes, not to convince myself that > they are correct. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why not then just drop all discussions and concepts of E. NOW you're talking! :-) Have you ever had the experience (assuming that you've had long, stable periods of 24/7 witnessing, absolutely clear experiences of enlightenment, in which you've gotten to sit down and rap with some- one else who is also having that experience? Is there really anything to be said? In my exper- ience, there is not. You just sit around laughing a lot and talking about more interesting things. That's my kinda discussion... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha: > > Why not then just drop all discussions and concepts of E. Unc: > NOW you're talking! :-) A: Yes. I have been suggeting such for some time. But I appear to violate the rule at times because its interesting to me to understand what people mean when they introduce and use the E term, or proclaim it, or talk authoritatively about it. Knowing the pfofusion of meanings and POVs about E, asking about their views can be a facinating tour on how peoples minds work. Such discussions can stimulate thinking on peripheral insights not so connected to the E topic -- or on specific experiences. The slippery slope is that some assume, incorretly, that I am "seeking E" and give me all sorts of unsolicited and off target advice on what I am doing wrong in seeking E. Then being a retard, I sometimes get sucked into these off-target discussions. Which can be fun, but are usually quite a waste as far as generating new insights. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I also find that the more often/longer Awareness
> > > > > is "present," the more of a pain it is when it
> > > > > "goes away."
> > > >
> > > > Still laughing uncontrollably. It's all about
> > > > what "you" "want" rather than what is.
> > >
> > > That's the way it is when Awareness is not
> > > "present."
> > >
> > > If you
> > > > only learned to appreciate what already is,
> > > > you'd have what you want.
> > >
> > > That's the way it is when Awareness *is* "present."
> > > Then I have the ability to appreciate what is.
> > >
> > > And that's why it's a pain when Awareness "goes
> > > away" and I no longer have that ability.
> >
> > To expand a bit: You said in another post that it
> > feels "false" to you to "want" a higher state of
> > attention.
>
> Not so much "false" as completely unproductive.
> To do so takes one out of Now and into the realm
> of an imagined future that would be "better" if
> certain conditions were met.
Right. And I find "It would be better if I appreciated
the Now" unproductive and "false." ("False" was the word
you used, BTW.)
As I said (and you snipped), either I'm appreciating
the Now spontaneously (when I'm having foreground PC),
or I'm not (when I'm not having foreground PC).
It's the issue of
> those "I'd rather be ..." bumper stickers I
> mentioned recently. The state of mind of "I'd
> rather be ..." is by definition not appreciating
> the Now, and setting up a set of circumstances
> that would "warrant" appreciation.
So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now,
and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating
the Now."
My point is that you've gotten yourself into
yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe"
appreciating the Now.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > for CC? > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. > > Good. > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non-seeking > way :) ) In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > definition? If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, I ought to be able to, at least from those who recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my understanding of how MMY uses the term are welcome. I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're all familiar with, and it's not a complicated definition. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > the Now." > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > appreciating the Now. Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we feeling? If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. 2) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify our thinking patterns, we can do a little inquiry into the nature of the thought that is causing the pain. Practice the Byron Katie work. And/or, if preferred, see step 3. 3) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify our emotional-physiological patterns, we can do a little rebirthing/pranayamic inquiry into the visceral discomfort itself: What are we feeling, and where in the body is that feeling in this moment? Pay attention to the feeling in the body. Breathe into it; relax into it; allow ourselves to integrate it, allowing it to breathe and to feel. Contrary to what we may have been taught, this feeling too is OK; it is an aspect of Wholeness. We remind ourself (if necessary) that "It is easy and safe for me to allow this feeling now." We continue attending to it and allowing it to breathe until we have integrated it fully. If we have problems doing this on our own, see step 4. 4) Get some help -- many times, it is easier to move through this material if we are accompanied by a guide. If we don't wish to engage a guide, see step 5. 5) You're on your own here -- I have run out of ideas :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Akasha: > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non-seeking > > way :) ) Judy: > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. Is there "no-I"? Is one in CC, at home with all knowledge? In CC, is one spontaneously in accord with all the laws of nature? Does anger manifest in that state? >From it, does spontaneous abilities manifest? Are ritam experiences necessarily clear in CC? Does celibacy naturally "happen" in CC? What is the experience of witness sleep? Of dreaming? Is it "a turn on the switch in a dark room" experience where its clear that its impossible for anyone not in full established CC to have any inkling as to what CC is about? What happens when a person in CC meditates? Does a person in cc aura's change? Their breath? Their need for sleep? > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > definition? > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > welcome. Well, I hold the issue is not just remembering the teaching. The issue is taking the claims of those proclaiming the state and categorizing all of their claimed or unclaimed attributes within the CC framework as "necessary and /or sufficient or bogus/not relevant." And coming up with a consistent framework. If one wanted to do so. I am not saying its necessary or even useful. Just interesting. > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > definition. yes. I understand. I have had the same thought. Until i tried to apply it and met some of the above issues. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > the Now." > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > appreciating the Now. > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we feeling? > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. "It would be better if I felt good." > 2) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify > our thinking patterns, "It would be better if I clarified my thinking patterns so I could be completely satisfied." > 3) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify > our emotional-physiological patterns, "It would be better if I clarified my emotional-physiological patterns so I could be completely satisified." If I work *really really hard* on this, someday in the future I may come to be able to appreciate the Now. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Akasha: > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- seeking > > > way :) ) > > Judy: > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. Er, Akasha, I'm proposing a term to describe a particular type of experience, i.e., permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC, period. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't understand where all these other questions are coming from. > > Is there "no-I"? > > Is one in CC, at home with all knowledge? > > In CC, is one spontaneously in accord with all the laws of nature? > > Does anger manifest in that state? > > From it, does spontaneous abilities manifest? > > Are ritam experiences necessarily clear in CC? > > Does celibacy naturally "happen" in CC? > > What is the experience of witness sleep? Of dreaming? > > Is it "a turn on the switch in a dark room" experience where its clear > that its impossible for anyone not in full established CC to have any > inkling as to what CC is about? > > What happens when a person in CC meditates? > > Does a person in cc aura's change? Their breath? Their need for sleep? > > > > > > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > > definition? > > > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > > welcome. > > Well, I hold the issue is not just remembering the teaching. The issue > is taking the claims of those proclaiming the state and categorizing > all of their claimed or unclaimed attributes within the CC framework > as "necessary and /or sufficient or bogus/not relevant." And coming up > with a consistent framework. > > If one wanted to do so. I am not saying its necessary or even useful. > Just interesting. > > > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > > definition. > > yes. I understand. I have had the same thought. Until i tried to apply > it and met some of the above issues. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > I'll order some pizza from cave service and think > > > about it over lunch. :-) > > > > Dude, if you are living in Paris and you order up take-out pizza -- > > you are not only way UnAwake, you are a gastronomic baffoon. :) > > Yesterday the seminar I was attending was at the Ritz. > Had I ordered pizza from their room service, you can > rest assured that it would have been better than > anything you could find at *any* restaurant in the > US other than about a dozen of them. :-) Bah. There's plenty of hole-in-the-wall pizza places with good pizza. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > [...] > > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. > > > > MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, IIRC. > > Right. So why would any TMer hold the belief that it > was (generally or always) *not* a gradual process? SOmeone quoted someone who said its always gradual until its abrupt. That seems inline with what MMY has described, actually. The transition can take a long time or a short time, but the "final" part of the transition is a definite mode-switch. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Akasha: > > > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > > > whole > > > > > > > paradigm about enlightenment on this list is dichotomous, > > > > digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > > > > > Unc: > > > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > > > > > A: > > > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > before. > > > > > > > > > > U: > > > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > > > > > If you were jivna-mukti at birth, you had not need to incarnate. > > > > > > > > A serious point per my prior post. People can dilute, devalue, > > > > reclassify, and redefine E criteria all they want. But if they > > come > > > > back, they were wrong. > > > > > > > > > > So much for bodhisatvas? > > > > > > > I have long suggested that we run some tests on the self- > > proclaimed > > > > Es. Push'em off a cliff. And if they don't come back, we will > > > > celebrate their saintliness. > > > > > > MMY once commented, or so I am told, that the sidhis would be an > > eye- > > > opener to many who felt they were fully enlightened. > > > > Pun not intended... > > How do you know he was/is right? Well, maybe he said it originally the way I quoted and DID intend the pun... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > for CC? > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). There's still a distinction that can be made between long-term witnessing and "full-blown CC," or so I think. > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > experience. I don't see that your four- > letter job is any better, as long as we > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Akasha: > > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- > seeking > > > > way :) ) > > > > Judy: > > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > > > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > > Er, Akasha, I'm proposing a term to describe a > particular type of experience, i.e., permanent, > 24-hour-a-day foreground PC, period. Thats fine. Originally, the seeking of a definition was in order to try gain consensus view. Already your definitions has nothing to do -- on the word level with Peter's. Thus the consensus thing is not working out so well. The thing is, people have either abondoned MMY's definition, or taken a set of attributes from him, but not all, or emphasized different atrributes. I am just stating my experience, that explicitly address most of these questions, provides a framework, that just might, probably not, begin to address every ones individual definitions and may be a starting point for building a concensus def. But I can tell that not an area of great interst to you. No foul, no penalty. As I said: > > yes. I understand. I have had the same thought (use mmy's def of cc]. Until i tried to > apply it and met some of the above issues. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > [...] > > > > I ask because I've said in a number of posts that the > > > > longer I meditate, the less overshadowed I am. > > > > And certainly MMY teaches that it's a gradual process, > > > > so I'm not sure why any TMer would hold that belief. > > > > > > MMY teaches that it is GENERALLY a gradual process, IIRC. > > > > Right. So why would any TMer hold the belief that it > > was (generally or always) *not* a gradual process? > > SOmeone quoted someone who said its always gradual until its > abrupt. That seems inline with what MMY has described, actually. > The transition can take a long time or a short time, but > the "final" part of the transition is a definite mode-switch. OK. What I was responding to was the assertion that there were many people here saying that the pattern *generally* was that one meditated for many years with no discernible change--as opposed to gradual change-- and then suddenly become enlightened. That's what I was questioning. that isn't what MMY teaches. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > for CC? > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > There's still a distinction that can be made between long-term > witnessing and "full-blown CC," or so I think. I believe that's the distinction I just got done making, Lawson. > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 9/28/05 3:00 PM, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > >> > >>> Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > >>> for CC? > >> > >> That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > >> "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > >> (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > There's still a distinction that can be made between long-term > > witnessing and "full-blown CC," or so I think. > > I didn't want to be the one to say it, but that is correct IMO. Witnessing > is a just symptom of the coming dawn. Well, MMY has said that there are people in the TMO with "quite mature" CC which implies that they are (at that point) not "fully" in CC. The long-term witnessing studies that MUM has published are of people reporting a few months to a few years continuous 24/7 witnessing, BTW. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > > for CC? > > > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > There's still a distinction that can be made between long-term > > witnessing and "full-blown CC," or so I think. > > I believe that's the distinction I just got done > making, Lawson. > You said "24-hour permanent witnessing." I missed the "permanent" in there. Some research is on people with several years of 24/7 witnessing, but that may not be permanent... > > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > > for CC? > > > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. > > > > Good. > > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- seeking > > way :) ) > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > definition? > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > welcome. > > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > definition. Downright simplistic, in fact. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > > > for CC? > > > > > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. > > > > > > Good. > > > > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- > seeking > > > way :) ) > > > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > > > > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > > definition? > > > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > > welcome. > > > > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > > definition. > > Downright simplistic, in fact. :-) Not a bit. You're a little confused. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > > > for CC? > > > > > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. > > > > > > Good. > > > > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- > seeking > > > way :) ) > > > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > > > > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > > definition? > > > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > > welcome. > > > > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > > definition. > > Downright simplistic, in fact. :-) Suitable for beginners, true. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > the Now." > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we feeling? > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > > 2) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify > > our thinking patterns, > > "It would be better if I clarified my thinking > patterns so I could be completely satisfied." > > > > 3) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify > > our emotional-physiological patterns, > > "It would be better if I clarified my > emotional-physiological patterns so I could be > completely satisified." > > If I work *really really hard* on this, someday > in the future I may come to be able to appreciate > the Now. And when this happens, in this dreamed-of future, wave to the pigs as they fly by... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
U: > And when this happens, in this dreamed-of future, > wave to the pigs as they fly by... :-) The ones emerging from your butt? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > the Now." > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we feeling? > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > "It would be better if I felt good." And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What kind of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a good start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it were in the body? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > feeling? > > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What kind > of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a good > start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, > allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it were in > the body? Of course, it is good to choose a time and place and (optionally) a guide wherein you feel safe, secure and appreciated/loved enough to do these inquiries; the internet may well not feel like the proper forum to allow this process to work with the most privacy and fluidity, especially the first time(s)...:-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > > > feeling? If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try > > > step 2. > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > > > > 2) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to clarify > > > our thinking patterns, > > > > "It would be better if I clarified my thinking > > patterns so I could be completely satisfied." > > > > > > > 3) If we don't feel completely satisfied, and we wish to > > > clarify our emotional-physiological patterns, > > > > "It would be better if I clarified my > > emotional-physiological patterns so I could be > > completely satisified." > > > > If I work *really really hard* on this, someday > > in the future I may come to be able to appreciate > > the Now. > > And when this happens, in this dreamed-of future, > wave to the pigs as they fly by... :-) *Boy*, you're slow on the uptake today, Barry. Say, here's an idea: Why don't you try actually *reading* the post? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > feeling? > > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What kind > of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a good > start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, > allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it were > in the body? Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > > feeling? > > > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > > > And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What kind > > of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a good > > start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, > > allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it were > > in the body? > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before we have even tried; that doesn't seem like you. But it is *your* body, and *your* emotions and *your* mind, and you have every right to choose when and where and with whom and certainly *whether or not* to inquire into them. I think you're the greatest either way.:-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
Judy: > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? Rory: > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before we > have even tried; that doesn't seem like you. But it is *your* body, > and *your* emotions and *your* mind, and you have every right to > choose when and where and with whom and certainly *whether or not* > to inquire into them. I think you're the greatest either way.:-) On the other hand, if I *were* saying to myself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working," and if there were some pain associated with the thought, I suppose I would go ahead and breathe and see/feel where in the body that pain/defeatism was located, and so on ... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > > > feeling? > > > > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > > > > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > > > > > And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What > kind > > > of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a > good > > > start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, > > > allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it were > > > in the body? > > > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? > > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before we > have even tried You've been trying now for quite a string of posts. Do you think you've gotten anywhere? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Judy: > > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? > > Rory: > > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before > > we have even tried; that doesn't seem like you. But it is *your* > > body, and *your* emotions and *your* mind, and you have every > > right to choose when and where and with whom and certainly > > *whether or not* to inquire into them. I think you're the greatest > > either way.:-) > > On the other hand, if I *were* saying to myself, "Gee, this doesn't > seem to be working," and if there were some pain associated with the > thought, I suppose I would go ahead and breathe and see/feel where > in the body that pain/defeatism was located, and so on ... :-) Great. You go do that, and let us know what you discover, OK? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I'm sitting there not appreciating the Now, > > > > > > > and I say to myself, "I'd rather be appreciating > > > > > > > the Now." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that you've gotten yourself into > > > > > > > yet another infinite regress when you "prescribe" > > > > > > > appreciating the Now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some Suggestions on How to Appreciate the Now: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Pay attention to whatever is in front of us. How are we > > > > feeling? > > > > > > If we feel good, the exercise is done. If not, try step 2. > > > > > > > > > > "It would be better if I felt good." > > > > > > > > And so how do we feel? Not-good? Is that the same as bad? What > > kind > > > > of bad? Itchy? Weepy? Stubborn? Guilty? Angry? "Not-good" is a > > good > > > > start, but perhaps let's dig a little deeper, taking our time, > > > > allowing it to breathe. Where in the body would it be, if it > were > > > > in the body? > > > > > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? > > > > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before we > > have even tried > > You've been trying now for quite a string of posts. > Do you think you've gotten anywhere? *lol* Yes, I have done the work I needed to do. I can't speak for your progress; that's your business, not mine. I do what I do because I love it, the process of it. Where am I supposed to be going or to have gotten, other than here? :-) Even if we never get around to "officially" trying the Work together, still -- talking about its mechanics is fun, and I appreciate your graciously giving me the opportunity to do so, almost ad infinitum if not ad nauseam. Anyhow, I respect your privacy, your comfort-zone, your innately perfect sense of timing, and your right to choose your own path. I am not certain this forum would be the most comfortable place to carry out this sort of work, anyhow. Thanks again for your patience; I love you, Judy :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Judy: > > > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? > > > > Rory: > > > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up before > > > we have even tried; that doesn't seem like you. But it is *your* > > > body, and *your* emotions and *your* mind, and you have every > > > right to choose when and where and with whom and certainly > > > *whether or not* to inquire into them. I think you're the greatest > > > either way.:-) > > > > On the other hand, if I *were* saying to myself, "Gee, this doesn't > > seem to be working," and if there were some pain associated with the > > thought, I suppose I would go ahead and breathe and see/feel where > > in the body that pain/defeatism was located, and so on ... :-) > > Great. You go do that, and let us know what > you discover, OK? I found my ever-perfect Self ... what a surprise! :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > Judy: > > > > > Rory, has it ever occurred to you to say to > > > > > yourself, "Gee, this doesn't seem to be working"? > > > > > > Rory: > > > > *lol* No. I certainly wouldn't see the point in giving up > before > > > > we have even tried; that doesn't seem like you. But it is > *your* > > > > body, and *your* emotions and *your* mind, and you have every > > > > right to choose when and where and with whom and certainly > > > > *whether or not* to inquire into them. I think you're the > greatest > > > > either way.:-) > > > > > > On the other hand, if I *were* saying to myself, "Gee, this > doesn't > > > seem to be working," and if there were some pain associated with > the > > > thought, I suppose I would go ahead and breathe and see/feel > where > > > in the body that pain/defeatism was located, and so on ... :-) > > > > Great. You go do that, and let us know what > > you discover, OK? > > I found my ever-perfect Self ... what a surprise! :-) I choose to be small, I choose to be large, I choose CC, I choose GC, I choose UC, I choose boredom, grief, pain, sorrow, joy, happiness, dissolution, concentration, bliss, misery, friendship, isolation, love, unity, perfection, growth, bewilderment, comprehension, surprise, appreciation, cognition, and nothing at all. Don't we all? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Beautiful. A few comments interleaved below. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > Akasha: > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > > whole paradigm about enlightenment on this list is > > > > > dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > Unc: > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > A: > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > > > before. > > > > > > U: > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. > > > First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment. > > > > Me, either. I was just using the terminology already > > being used in these discussions. > > > > > It can create > > > distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can create > > > false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is? > > > > Giving some people who are anxious for the "title" > > something to do with their time? :-) > > > > > > I just never appreciated it > > > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit- > > > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since > > > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to > > > > background many times, but what I realized during the > > > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been > > > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it > > > > was that it had *always* been present. > > > Speaking of which, perhaps someone can comment on an experience I've had lately: I've always had a well developed intellect, can think quickly. However, lately my intellect has literally been operating on a higher level. I say that because my previous experience of mental concentration in order to think something through always felt like it was inside my brain, and it took a lot of effort. My recent experience is that I am thinking *above* my brain. There seems to be a location about two hands above my head, wherein if I focus my thinking there, my intellect seems to achieve effortless answers to anything. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is, or have heard of it before? Also feels like I'm wearing a crown, or a halo or something. Not a big deal, just curious. Thanks- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Beautiful. A few comments interleaved below. > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Akasha: > > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > > > whole paradigm about enlightenment on this list is > > > > > > dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > > > Unc: > > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > > > A: > > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > > > > before. > > > > > > > > U: > > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > > > > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. > > > > First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment. > > > > > > Me, either. I was just using the terminology already > > > being used in these discussions. > > > > > > > It can create > > > > distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can > create > > > > false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is? > > > > > > Giving some people who are anxious for the "title" > > > something to do with their time? :-) > > > > > > > > I just never appreciated it > > > > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit- > > > > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since > > > > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to > > > > > background many times, but what I realized during the > > > > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been > > > > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it > > > > > was that it had *always* been present. > > > > > Speaking of which, perhaps someone can comment on an experience I've > had lately: > > I've always had a well developed intellect, can think quickly. > However, lately my intellect has literally been operating on a > higher level. I say that because my previous experience of mental > concentration in order to think something through always felt like > it was inside my brain, and it took a lot of effort. > > My recent experience is that I am thinking *above* my brain. There > seems to be a location about two hands above my head, wherein if I > focus my thinking there, my intellect seems to achieve effortless > answers to anything. > > Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is, or have heard > of it before? Also feels like I'm wearing a crown, or a halo or > something. Not a big deal, just curious. Thanks->>> If it is effortless it is probably Krishna, the Charioteer, but the word 'focus' suggests is could be Beelzebub, the Illusionist. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speaking of which, perhaps someone can comment on an experience I've > had lately: > > I've always had a well developed intellect, can think quickly. > However, lately my intellect has literally been operating on a > higher level. I say that because my previous experience of mental > concentration in order to think something through always felt like > it was inside my brain, and it took a lot of effort. > > My recent experience is that I am thinking *above* my brain. There > seems to be a location about two hands above my head, wherein if I > focus my thinking there, my intellect seems to achieve effortless > answers to anything. > > Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is, or have heard > of it before? Also feels like I'm wearing a crown, or a halo or > something. Not a big deal, just curious. Thanks- This sounds somewhat like what we used to call "channelling" -- that is, first allowing the consciousness to dwell in the radiant center about 8-12 inches above the head, a kind of "grand central station" chakra, and from there accessing different aspects or dimensions of our higher Self or Wholeness (Masters, Gods, Gurus, etc.) which until then had seemed inaccessible. From this place it is very easy to access any knowledge one wishes or needs to accomplish one's dharma here. For me anyhow it was a significant step forward into healing, integrating and more spontaneously realizing the Nowness of all time/all space/all aspects of the Self. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Speaking of which, perhaps someone can comment on an experience > I've > > had lately: > > > > I've always had a well developed intellect, can think quickly. > > However, lately my intellect has literally been operating on a > > higher level. I say that because my previous experience of mental > > concentration in order to think something through always felt like > > it was inside my brain, and it took a lot of effort. > > > > My recent experience is that I am thinking *above* my brain. There > > seems to be a location about two hands above my head, wherein if I > > focus my thinking there, my intellect seems to achieve effortless > > answers to anything. > > > > Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is, or have > heard > > of it before? Also feels like I'm wearing a crown, or a halo or > > something. Not a big deal, just curious. Thanks- > > This sounds somewhat like what we used to call "channelling" -- that > is, first allowing the consciousness to dwell in the radiant center > about 8-12 inches above the head, a kind of "grand central station" > chakra, and from there accessing different aspects or dimensions of > our higher Self or Wholeness (Masters, Gods, Gurus, etc.) which > until then had seemed inaccessible. From this place it is very easy > to access any knowledge one wishes or needs to accomplish one's > dharma here. For me anyhow it was a significant step forward into > healing, integrating and more spontaneously realizing the Nowness of > all time/all space/all aspects of the Self. :-) Makes good sense. Yes, it does make life easier. Ties into another set of experiences whereby events are significantly outpacing my expectations- wish for a dollar, get a hundred...Thank You! I am not aware of or particularly interested in who might be providing this info. Higher Self works though. The info does seem to come from above and beyond. Thanks again Rory. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > You've been trying now for quite a string of posts. > > Do you think you've gotten anywhere? > > *lol* Yes, I have done the work I needed to do. I meant with me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Beautiful. A few comments interleaved below. > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Akasha: > > > > > > Does it strike anyone else as funny, even absurd, that the > > > whole paradigm about enlightenment on this list is > > > > > > dichotomous, digital, either "on or off"? > > > > > > > > Unc: > > > > > YES! That's exactly the issue. > > > > > > > > > I realized that some time back, during the discussions > > > > > about 'appreciation.' Some comment by, I think, Tom > > > > > made me completely abandon my old paradigm and come up > > > > > with a new one that more accurately described my > > > > > subjective experience. > > > > > > > > A: > > > > > > Pure consciousness begins from the first mediation. If not > > > > > > before. > > > > > > > > U: > > > > > Before. There has never been a moment in my life when > > > > > I was not enlightened. > > > > > > > > That's the one point on all of this where I think we differ. > > > > First, I see no value in labels such as enlightenment. > > > > > > Me, either. I was just using the terminology already > > > being used in these discussions. > > > > > > > It can create > > > > distinctions, it can creates longing for "titles", it can > create > > > > false egos, it can creates scams, etc. And the upside is? > > > > > > Giving some people who are anxious for the "title" > > > something to do with their time? :-) > > > > > > > > I just never appreciated it > > > > > until a three-week period in Fiuggi, when the 24/7 wit- > > > > > nessing made it impossible not to appreciate. Since > > > > > then, that witnessing has slipped from foreground to > > > > > background many times, but what I realized during the > > > > > 'appreciation' discussion is that it has always been > > > > > present. What I realized when I first appreciated it > > > > > was that it had *always* been present. > > > > > Speaking of which, perhaps someone can comment on an experience I've > had lately: > > I've always had a well developed intellect, can think quickly. > However, lately my intellect has literally been operating on a > higher level. I say that because my previous experience of mental > concentration in order to think something through always felt like > it was inside my brain, and it took a lot of effort. > > My recent experience is that I am thinking *above* my brain. There > seems to be a location about two hands above my head, wherein if I > focus my thinking there, my intellect seems to achieve effortless > answers to anything. > > Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is, or have heard > of it before? Also feels like I'm wearing a crown, or a halo or > something. Not a big deal, just curious. Thanks- Sounds like classic disociation... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Just BELIEVE Peter, and You CAN Fly!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is constant foreground PC a sufficnet criteria > > > > > > for CC? > > > > > > > > > > That's how MMY defines it (if it's permanent); > > > > > "witnessing" can apply to temporary experiences > > > > > (CC being 24-hour permanent witnessing). > > > > > > > > > > It's a "symbol," but for a very specific > > > > > experience. I don't see that your four- > > > > > letter job is any better, as long as we > > > > > know what the definition of "CC" is. > > > > > > > > > > That's all I'm saying. I agree with you > > > > > that a lot of the other terms are problematic. > > > > > > > > Good. > > > > > > > > But what is your definition of CC? (but define it in a non- > > seeking > > > > way :) ) > > > > > > In my understanding of how MMY uses the term, CC > > > is permanent, 24-hour-a-day foreground PC. > > > > > > > Can you now get universal consensus on this list for that > > > > definition? > > > > > > If I'm representing MMY's definition correctly, > > > I ought to be able to, at least from those who > > > recall MMY's teaching. Corrections to my > > > understanding of how MMY uses the term are > > > welcome. > > > > > > I'm only suggesting it because it's a term we're > > > all familiar with, and it's not a complicated > > > definition. > > > > Downright simplistic, in fact. :-) > > Suitable for beginners, true. Suitable for experts, too...just incomplete, as any definition of the undefinable would be. It's sorta like defining an orange as a round fruit. There's more to it than that... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
