[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-27 Thread Robert


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
  I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
  devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
  as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
  that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
  
  It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
  is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
  bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
  devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
  mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
  how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
  want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
  
  With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking 
  about it being related to devotion.
  
  Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the
  program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he
  wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to 
  teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the
  mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.
 
 Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same 
 place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached 
 from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead 
 to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL.
 
 What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just 
 curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything 
 in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should 
 have a decent idea by now.

To be 'Devoted to Maharishi' is to be devoted to attaining 'Brahman 
Consciousness'...through the techniques and through intellectual knowlege which 
Maharishi outlined toward the end of his life, in detailing the specifics of 
Brhaman Consciousness...

It still comes down to putting in time that it takes to 'burn up' the 'latent 
tendencies' 'Samsaras' and release everything that interferes with the 
'Complete Realization of the Soul'...

Brahman Consciousness is basically what was embodied by 'Guru Dev' ,
and as he taught as basically 'Soul Realization'...

How your individual soul becomes self aware and how it relates to the 'Soul of 
all Things'...all manifest reality...

The basic technique of TM to teach transcendence and then the basic technique 
of the Sidhis to become familiar with the finest impulse of the Sutra...

So, just becoming familiar with transcenence and the finest level of feeling 
over and over again, so it becomes habituated...

Until finally, the 'Self-Referral' quality of the process begins to disolve 
into a kind of wholenss of awarness, in that at the finest level there is a 
merging of Being with both the inner awarness of Self, and the outer awareness 
of relativity, and the gap in between...

It is finer than fine, this level of Brahman, but as Maharishi says, it can be 
stabilized with continued practice of maintaining that level of 'Wholeness of 
Beingness' which is a direct experience of many at this time, and only needs to 
be stabilized with continued practice in that way of 'Devotion' to 'That'...





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-27 Thread Robert


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   snip
   I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
   devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
   as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
   that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
   
   It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
   is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
   bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
   devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
   mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
   how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
   want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
   
   With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking 
   about it being related to devotion.
   
   Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the
   program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he
   wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to 
   teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the
   mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.
  
  Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same 
  place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, 
  approached from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All 
  roads lead to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end 
  here, at FFL.
  
  What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just 
  curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything 
  in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you 
  should have a decent idea by now.
 
 To be 'Devoted to Maharishi' is to be devoted to attaining 'Brahman 
 Consciousness'...through the techniques and through intellectual knowlege 
 which Maharishi outlined toward the end of his life, in detailing the 
 specifics of Brhaman Consciousness...
 
 It still comes down to putting in time that it takes to 'burn up' the 'latent 
 tendencies' 'Samsaras' and release everything that interferes with the 
 'Complete Realization of the Soul'...
 
 Brahman Consciousness is basically what was embodied by 'Guru Dev' ,
 and as he taught as basically 'Soul Realization'...
 
 How your individual soul becomes self aware and how it relates to the 'Soul 
 of all Things'...all manifest reality...
 
 The basic technique of TM to teach transcendence and then the basic technique 
 of the Sidhis to become familiar with the finest impulse of the Sutra...
 
 So, just becoming familiar with transcenence and the finest level of feeling 
 over and over again, so it becomes habituated...
 
 Until finally, the 'Self-Referral' quality of the process begins to disolve 
 into a kind of wholenss of awarness, in that at the finest level there is a 
 merging of Being with both the inner awarness of Self, and the outer 
 awareness of relativity, and the gap in between...
 
 It is finer than fine, this level of Brahman, but as Maharishi says, it can 
 be stabilized with continued practice of maintaining that level of 'Wholeness 
 of Beingness' which is a direct experience of many at this time, and only 
 needs to be stabilized with continued practice in that way of 'Devotion' to 
 'That'...

Further, the 'Sidhi Techniques' themselves are to be transended, in that the 
'Powers' are to be viewed with 'Detatchment'...
This is clearly stated in the Yoga Sutras.
The Sidhi Techniques are primarily to be used to become aquanted the the finest 
level of feeling, and then transending that finest level to Beingness.
Now, if the powers come, they will come spontaneously if they are needed...
The 'Flying Sutra' can also be used to 'Travel through Space' on the level of 
consciousness, at the 'Speed of Thought'...which opens the way for the first 
value of 'Brahman Consciousess' in that when one is identified with 'Wholeness' 
then one can be 'Anywhere at Anytime'...
If Being is the basis of 'All that there Is' therefore, one can 'travel through 
space' and also through 'time' perhaps?

Nonetheless Patanjali clearly states in the Yoga sutras, that the powers are to 
be 'let go of'...
Because clearly the goal is not 'Any specific power', but rather the attainment 
of the 'Highest Level of Consciousness' the attainment of 'Brahman 
Consciousness'...





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
  According to MMY, meditation is based
  on thinking.
 
  Meditation means simply 'to think
  things over'.
 
  If so, then everyone meditates.
 
emptybill:
 You must have never done TM.

Let's review:

If I think, I meditate; everyone thinks;
so, then everyone meditates.

Meditation is based on thinking. - MMY

 This is an idiots definition.

Definition:

meditation

–noun

1 to think calm thoughts in order to
relax or as a religious activity:
Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every
day.

2 to think seriously about something
for a long time: He meditated on the
consequences of his decision.

Source:

Cambridge University Dictionary:
http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 snip
  If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you
  from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is
  on the connexion between A and B?
 
 I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
 one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to
 be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency
 to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's
 the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't
 know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal,
 or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can
 say about A is that there was less transparency than there is
 now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business
 and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be
 happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize
 it for myself.

Good, that is all I was asking. I have tended to do the same thing, and not 
think about a goal other than as a blank that might be filled in. Earlier on I 
think I had more conceptually concrete ideas but they dissipated. Some people 
have really clear ideas about what they expect. 

If they trip over into an awakening, they will not be disappointed in the 
experience, but they will probably find their ideas are very wide of the mark. 
Until then, there is usually the experience of gradual change in experience 
unless the person is striving really hard for the imagined goal they have in 
which case they may finally just collapse from the effort and then have a grand 
experience of some kind of release, though it may not be nirvana. 

Your answer had a fine simplicity to it, and no jargon other than what I had 
thrown at you. Thank you.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread raunchydog


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
   If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you
   from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is
   on the connexion between A and B?
  
  I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
  one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to
  be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency
  to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's
  the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't
  know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal,
  or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can
  say about A is that there was less transparency than there is
  now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business
  and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be
  happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize
  it for myself.
 
 Good, that is all I was asking. I have tended to do the same thing, and not 
 think about a goal other than as a blank that might be filled in. Earlier on 
 I think I had more conceptually concrete ideas but they dissipated. Some 
 people have really clear ideas about what they expect. 
 
 If they trip over into an awakening, they will not be disappointed in the 
 experience, but they will probably find their ideas are very wide of the 
 mark. Until then, there is usually the experience of gradual change in 
 experience unless the person is striving really hard for the imagined goal 
 they have in which case they may finally just collapse from the effort and 
 then have a grand experience of some kind of release, though it may not be 
 nirvana. 
 
 Your answer had a fine simplicity to it, and no jargon other than what I had 
 thrown at you. Thank you.


Judy's answer has simplicity because TM as well as the path is simple natural 
and innocent. Rest and activity and water the root to enjoy the fruit, 
that's it. There's nothing fancy about it. Your line of questioning was more 
complex than this context, so it took a while to unravel what you wanted to 
understand about Judy's path. 

Maharishi was all about innocent practice. He didn't want us to get caught up 
in flashy experiences and miss capturing the fort (his analogy) because we're 
too busy exploring gold and diamond mines. The fort includes all the gold and 
diamond mines within it territory. 

I'm just an old-time TM teacher still in love with Maharishi and still keeping 
it simple with his old-time expressions of profound knowledge.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote:

 Maharishi was all about innocent practice. He didn't want us to get caught up 
 in flashy experiences and miss capturing the fort (his analogy) because 
 we're too busy exploring gold and diamond mines. The fort includes all the 
 gold and diamond mines within it territory. 
 
 I'm just an old-time TM teacher still in love with Maharishi and still 
 keeping it simple with his old-time expressions of profound knowledge.


Nice. That's why I never participate in discussions here about the TM technique 
or the mantras.
The Buddhists, particularily the Vaj character wants these discussions badly 
to try to confuse people.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread azgrey


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 
 I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
 one of gradually increasing transparency. 


Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear.

Cheers.



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread Vaj

On Feb 19, 2012, at 3:12 PM, azgrey wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
 
  
  I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
  one of gradually increasing transparency. 
 
 Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear.
 
 Cheers.


We're prayin' for ya Judy!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread azgrey


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 19, 2012, at 3:12 PM, azgrey wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   
   I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
   one of gradually increasing transparency. 
  
  Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear.
  
  Cheers.
 
 
 We're prayin' for ya Judy!



If TOREM, Inc. opened a PayPal account dedicated to Yagya donations
we could get this accomplished. 
   



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread Buck
The millions are awake enough for physical labor; but only one in a million is 
awake enough for effective intellectual exertion, only one in a hundred 
millions to a poetic or divine life. To be awake is to be alive. I have never 
yet met a man who was quite awake. How could I have looked him in the face?

We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake, not by mechanical aids, 
but by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us in our 
soundest sleep. I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable 
ability of man to elevate his life by a conscious endeavor.

-Buck



 Seriously, we all need to do something 
 about the none-meditator.
 
 It is time to shun none-meditation 
 and the person without meditation
 for not pulling their own weight.
 For spiritual slacking.  It's not
 just lost opportunity, not meditating.
 It's a crime against everyone to not
 be a meditator.
 
 People just should 
 come to meditation.  
 In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm
 Every day.  
 
 The world should be a better place with
 more meditators.  
 All people should have more
 resolve to meditate 
 if only because the science says so.
 We would all be better off.
 
 
 
 
  The world could be a better place.
  
  Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their 
  practice.  For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and 
  light of the Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are 
  meditators.  A group of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a 
  regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel.
  
  Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have 
  a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's 
  regiment from the Golden State!
  
  We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
  group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm 
  going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you 
  .  I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against 
  nonmeditators.  I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  
  Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you!  Ride!
  In the service of the Unified Field,
  -Buck
  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
   
On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:


 I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved 
 on
 to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.

 I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
 were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)

And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
   
   Who are they ?
  
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-19 Thread emptybill
You must have never done TM.
This is an idiots definition.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams
richard@... wrote:

 
 Or, I guess it all depends on how you
 can define 'meditation'. According to
 MMY, meditation is based on thinking.

 Meditation means simply 'to think
 things over'.

 If so, then everyone meditates.






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-18 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
snip
  What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path
  are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it,
  or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL.
  You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a
  decent idea by now.
 
 My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path
 is for the ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is
 from here to here.

He says that in SBAL too, in a footnote, but then he uses
the term over and over in the section Paths to God-
Realization. I figure as long as I'm still in ignorance,
I get to use it!

Can't figure out what the heck Xeno is asking me, though,
especially when he goes on to say he isn't going to argue
about it--what's to argue?--or cite anything in the past
from FFL--like what??

And he knows what my path is anyway. So why is he even
asking?

 It's a blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river
 and a brunette on the other. The brunette yells across the
 river to the blonde, How do you get to the other side? The
 blonde replies. You're already there.

Heh.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-18 Thread Bhairitu
On 02/16/2012 08:00 PM, Buck wrote:
 The world could be a better place.


Well, okay then Buck, what's your vision of a better place?



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-18 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 snip
 What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are?
 
 Boy, I'm sorry, but I don't know what that question
 even means. I do TM and the TM-Sidhis, then I go about
 my business. You'll have to be more specific if you
 want me to say anything beyond that.

Any kind of activity that has a goal has a concept like a path in it. Travel 
from A to B. When someone starts something like ATM, there usually is a reason 
for it, feeling better, or what not. The idea is there is a metaphorical line, 
a path, from A, where you are now, and B, where you expect to end up. Unless I 
am incredibly stupid, most people I have know who have started some kind of 
meditation had some kind of goal in mind. As they found out more about what 
they were doing, maybe the goal changed, but it was still a goal. Therefore 
most of us envision a goal, even though, strictly speaking, the goal ends up 
exactly what you are at any given moment. That is there really is no path, but 
before that experience occurs, it is usually impossible to not think of at 
least something about where one is headed. And that is the 'path', and there 
are usually some attributes attached to the idea, such as bhakti, or inquiry, 
or some kind of performances, pilgrimages, and those characteristics define 
some distinctive qualities about the 'path'.

Now if you just meditate and do the sidhis, and then think nothing of what 
meditation is about ever, then this would be rather unusual and difficult to 
describe as a 'path'. Some people I have met do not seem interested in unity; 
rather they seem more interested in god consciousness. They want some kind of 
experience of god. So perhaps that could be called some sort of religious path, 
maybe bhakti. Perhaps what I am asking is, if you considered the mental aspects 
of how you think about meditation etc., and the physical aspects, and the 
emotional aspects, which one of those aspects seems to predominate. That might 
help define the characteristics of the 'path' you are on. Bhakti is not an 
intellectual path. For me, for example, I think the mental aspect predominates, 
and emotional and physical aspects are less and about equal with each other. 
The emotional aspects of my 'path' are not devotional toward religious kinds of 
icons or persons. If I held a small salamander in my hand, it would probably 
generate more emotional interest for me than any kind of religiously inspired 
object. Robin for example, seems religiously motivated, he seemed to express a 
high degree of devotion, with a lot of conflict as how to direct that emotion.

If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you from A to B, what 
is A like, and what is B like, and what is on the connexion between A and B? 
While, as rauncydog says below the 'path' is really from A to A, but while one 
can say that intellectually, one actually does not appreciate it until 
awakening, which means an experience of unity. Until then, what we have in our 
heads always has at least some aspect of travel from A to B in it, some 
expectation that something else significant is going to happen.

[Post 304493]
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 snip
 What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path
 are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it,
 or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL.
 You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a
 decent idea by now.
 
 My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path
 is for the ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is
 from here to here.
 
 He says that in SBAL too, in a footnote, but then he uses
 the term over and over in the section Paths to God-
 Realization. I figure as long as I'm still in ignorance,
 I get to use it!
 
 Can't figure out what the heck Xeno is asking me, though,
 especially when he goes on to say he isn't going to argue
 about it--what's to argue?--or cite anything in the past
 from FFL--like what??
 
 And he knows what my path is anyway. So why is he even
 asking?

I would not presume to know your 'path', you have certain characteristics which 
would lead me to conclude that mental activity predominates in you, but you are 
a disembodied presence on the forum just like others, so for example, judging 
your emotional states cannot be gleaned from seeing expressions etc. And when I 
have attempted to characterise such states in you, you often disagree, so it is 
not reliable. I would expect you would know these things much more intimately 
than I could ever guess at.
 
 It's a blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river
 and a brunette on the other. The 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-18 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you
 from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is
 on the connexion between A and B?

I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is
one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to
be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency
to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's
the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't
know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal,
or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can
say about A is that there was less transparency than there is
now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business
and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be
happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize
it for myself.






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Buck
Seriously, we all need to do something 
about the none-meditator.

It is time to shun none-meditation 
and the person without meditation
for not pulling their own weight.
For spiritual slacking.  It's not
just lost opportunity, not meditating.
It's a crime against everyone to not
be a meditator.

People just should 
come to meditation.  
In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm
Every day.  

The world should be a better place with
more meditators.  
All people should have more
resolve to meditate 
if only because the science says so.
We would all be better off.




 The world could be a better place.
 
 Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. 
  For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the 
 Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are meditators.  A group 
 of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, 
 you should be a regimental Colonel.
 
 Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a 
 colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's 
 regiment from the Golden State!
 
 We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
 group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm going 
 to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you .  I've 
 got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators.  I'm in 
 the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  Bhairitu, the Unified 
 Field's speed to you!  Ride!
 In the service of the Unified Field,
 -Buck
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  
   On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:
   
   
I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
   
I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
   
   And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
  
  Who are they ?
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 The world could be a better place.
 
 Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. 
  For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the 
 Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are meditators.  A group 
 of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, 
 you should be a regimental Colonel.
 
 Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a 
 colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's 
 regiment from the Golden State!
 
 We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
 group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm going 
 to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you .  I've 
 got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators.  I'm in 
 the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  Bhairitu, the Unified 
 Field's speed to you!  Ride!

Buck, are you sure what you are saying?: 'I've got other fronts to attend to in 
this campaign against nonmeditators.' By definition, the unified field is 
inclusive of everything, and here you are talking about being against 
something. If you want to promote enlightenment, you might think of accepting 
the way the world is first, and then finding a way to interest whom you are 
calling an enemy in enlightenment. If they do not respond, that is still the 
unified field, so no loss.

Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: 

http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html

At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the 
movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation 
is universal.

One of the people Pearson mentions in his interview is Alfred, Lord Tennyson. 
The following link is a video of an animated photograph of Tennyson reading his 
famous poem about a blundered military campaign, the Charge of the Light 
Brigade. The audio is from Tennyson reading his work into an Edison cylinder 
phonograph (which could record), in the year 1890.

http://youtu.be/MkqUq26z1CE

 In the service of the Unified Field,
 -Buck
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  
   On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:
   
   
I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
   
I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
   
   And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
  
  Who are they ?
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of
 MUM Craig Pearson: 
 
 http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html
 
 At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion
 of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal 
 experience associated with meditation is universal.

Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement
theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first
time you've encountered it?




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread turquoiseb
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 People just should
 come to meditation.

 The world should be a better place with
 more meditators.
 All people should have more
 resolve to meditate
 if only because the science says so.
 We would all be better off.

A few ads from the grand old days of medicine, all touting trademarked
cures for what ails ya, all sold because the science says so.

  [Lloyd Cocaine Toothache Drops]

  [Bayer Heroin]

  [Pantopon Roche Injectable Opium]




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread marekreavis
Buck, your message seems to be more and more a call for intolerance. Appeals 
using militaristic metaphors carry (to me, at least) subliminal suggestions of 
violence. You decry how long time meditators are treated by TMO officials but 
call for shunning those whom you believe don't believe and act as you feel they 
should. 

Where is the logic in all this? Where is the friendliness and compassion?

***

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 Seriously, we all need to do something 
 about the none-meditator.
 
 It is time to shun none-meditation 
 and the person without meditation
 for not pulling their own weight.
 For spiritual slacking.  It's not
 just lost opportunity, not meditating.
 It's a crime against everyone to not
 be a meditator.
 
 People just should 
 come to meditation.  
 In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm
 Every day.  
 
 The world should be a better place with
 more meditators.  
 All people should have more
 resolve to meditate 
 if only because the science says so.
 We would all be better off.
 
 
 
 
  The world could be a better place.
  
  Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their 
  practice.  For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and 
  light of the Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are 
  meditators.  A group of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a 
  regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel.
  
  Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have 
  a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's 
  regiment from the Golden State!
  
  We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
  group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm 
  going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you 
  .  I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against 
  nonmeditators.  I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  
  Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you!  Ride!
  In the service of the Unified Field,
  -Buck
  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
   
On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:


 I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved 
 on
 to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.

 I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
 were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)

And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
   
   Who are they ?
  
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 snip
  Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of
  MUM Craig Pearson: 
  
  http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html
  
  At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion
  of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal 
  experience associated with meditation is universal.
 
 Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement
 theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first
 time you've encountered it?

No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within the hallowed 
halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not say it is absent. It has 
always been on my mind. It used to be rather prevalent in publications from 
around 1975. This particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be 
oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the restrictions and 
pressures that come with getting deeper into the fold. Note that Pearson seems 
to be comparing these experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a 
hint that he is comparing them to his own.

And I have met Craig Pearson, though I am not sure he would remember me. He 
seems like a nice guy, I have nothing against him. I think this theme was more 
prevalent when the movement was younger. And there was the fun of listening to 
Charlie Lutes, who was pushed to the fringe eventually. Someone told me he said 
sometime in the mid seventies, 'I was the World Governor of the Spiritual 
Regeneration Movement, then its President, now I'm the Janitor!' 

This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had wider reading on 
it: great spiritual movements in their infancy are all about Being, but as they 
mature there seems to be a shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there 
is a subtle shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or 
reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from unboundedness to a focus 
on an icon of the teacher, and eventually sometimes, just worship of the 
teacher, and what they taught is pushed way into the background.

In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite subtle group 
pressure to conform to the devotional model of the spiritual path, even though 
MMY, at least in the early days, talks about others, such as the mechanical 
path to enlightenment. The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky 
questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by substituting 
emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity Martin Luther said reason 
should be destroyed in all Christians. You have a strong intellect, do you have 
any thoughts on this?






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread authfriend


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
   Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of
   MUM Craig Pearson: 
   
   http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html
   
   At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion
   of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal 
   experience associated with meditation is universal.
  
  Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement
  theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first
  time you've encountered it?
 
 No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within
 the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not
 say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be 
 rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This
 particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be 
 oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the 
 restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into
 the fold.

I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme,
frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment
is a natural, normal development in human beings, after
all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there
was no clear understanding of what was involved and no
simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it,
according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't
some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM.

 Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these
 experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint
 that he is comparing them to his own.

I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it
would have been highly inappropriate in that interview
for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were
exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted.

snip
 This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had
 wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy
 are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a
 shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle 
 shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or 
 reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from
 unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and
 eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what
 they taught is pushed way into the background.

Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the
esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have
their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to
be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side.

 In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite
 subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the 
 spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days,
 talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment.
 The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky
 questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by 
 substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity
 Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
 You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this?

I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't 
really have any firsthand observations. From what I've
read of what many TM teachers from the early days have
said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so
prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per
se would have been entirely superfluous.

Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and
accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel
Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a
way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get
very far, nor was there much in the way of group support
for them.

Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively
in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more
of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with
teachers, this devotional context began to diminish.
Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to
actually teach devotion to the master.

As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little
confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion
to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's
some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be
a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping
him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly
practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a
personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without
having a master.

In any case, I'd be very surprised to learn that MMY had
ever suggested bhakti as an *alternative* to TM's
mechanical path. And he did insist in SBAL and his
Gita commentary that genuine devotion was impossible
until CC, when it would begin to develop by itself just
in the course of living in the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:


You need to get out more Turqo, not just dream about the good old days
:-)



 A few ads from the grand old days of medicine, all touting trademarked
 cures for what ails ya, all sold because the science says so.

 [Lloyd Cocaine Toothache Drops]

 [Bayer Heroin]

 [Pantopon Roche Injectable Opium]






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
Response to Judy.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 snip
 Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of
 MUM Craig Pearson: 
 
 http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html
 
 At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion
 of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal 
 experience associated with meditation is universal.
 
 Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement
 theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first
 time you've encountered it?
 
 No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within
 the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not
 say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be 
 rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This
 particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be 
 oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the 
 restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into
 the fold.
 
 I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme,
 frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment
 is a natural, normal development in human beings, after
 all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there
 was no clear understanding of what was involved and no
 simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it,
 according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't
 some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM.
 
 Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these
 experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint
 that he is comparing them to his own.
 
 I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it
 would have been highly inappropriate in that interview
 for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were
 exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted.

I think you are right here. What I said was not noteworthy.

 snip
 This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had
 wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy
 are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a
 shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle 
 shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or 
 reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from
 unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and
 eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what
 they taught is pushed way into the background.
 
 Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the
 esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have
 their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to
 be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side.
 
 In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite
 subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the 
 spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days,
 talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment.
 The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky
 questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by 
 substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity
 Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
 You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this?
 
 I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't 
 really have any firsthand observations. From what I've
 read of what many TM teachers from the early days have
 said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so
 prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per
 se would have been entirely superfluous.
 
 Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and
 accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel
 Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a
 way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get
 very far, nor was there much in the way of group support
 for them.
 
 Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively
 in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more
 of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with
 teachers, this devotional context began to diminish.
 Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to
 actually teach devotion to the master.

I think this is probably an accurate observation. I do know a lot of people 
drifted away from the movement when the 'personal touch' became more and more 
distant. They would drift to teachers surrounded by smaller groups where 
personal access was still possible. If I knew more about psychology, perhaps 
notes on this behaviour might have some special significance to this argument.

 As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little
 confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion
 to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's
 some overlap, I suppose, when the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 Response to Judy.
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
snip
  As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little
  confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion
  to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's
  some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be
  a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping
  him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly
  practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a
  personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without
  having a master.
 
 I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
 devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
 as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
 that is more vague than you tend to prefer.

It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Buck


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 Response to Judy.
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
  Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of
  MUM Craig Pearson: 
  
  http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html
  
  At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion
  of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal 
  experience associated with meditation is universal.
  
  Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement
  theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first
  time you've encountered it?
  
  No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within
  the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not
  say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be 
  rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This
  particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be 
  oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the 
  restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into
  the fold.
  
  I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme,
  frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment
  is a natural, normal development in human beings, after
  all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there
  was no clear understanding of what was involved and no
  simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it,
  according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't
  some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM.
  
  Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these
  experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint
  that he is comparing them to his own.
  
  I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it
  would have been highly inappropriate in that interview
  for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were
  exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted.
 
 I think you are right here. What I said was not noteworthy.
 
  snip
  This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had
  wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy
  are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a
  shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle 
  shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or 
  reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from
  unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and
  eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what
  they taught is pushed way into the background.
  
  Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the
  esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have
  their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to
  be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side.
  
  In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite
  subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the 
  spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days,
  talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment.
  The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky
  questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by 
  substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity
  Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
  You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this?
  
  I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't 
  really have any firsthand observations. From what I've
  read of what many TM teachers from the early days have
  said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so
  prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per
  se would have been entirely superfluous.
  
  Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and
  accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel
  Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a
  way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get
  very far, nor was there much in the way of group support
  for them.
  
  Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively
  in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more
  of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with
  teachers, this devotional context began to diminish.
  Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to
  actually teach devotion to the master.
 
 I think this is probably an accurate observation. I do know a lot of people 
 drifted away from the movement when the 'personal touch' became more and more 
 distant. They would drift to teachers surrounded by smaller groups where 
 personal access was still possible. If I knew more about psychology, perhaps 
 notes on this behaviour might have some special significance to this argument.
 
  As I go back and 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  Response to Judy.
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 snip
   As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little
   confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion
   to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's
   some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be
   a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping
   him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly
   practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a
   personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without
   having a master.
  
  I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
  devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
  as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
  that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
 
 It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
 is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
 bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
 devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
 mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
 how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
 want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.

With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being 
related to devotion. He spoke of TM as a mechanical means to achieve 
enlightenment, sans devotion apparently. That path is probably furtherest from 
devotion, at least as I think about it. Since bhakti is not really my thing, I 
probably do not distinguish much between flavours of devotion as to what, etc.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread authfriend


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
snip
   I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
   devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
   as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
   that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
  
  It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
  is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
  bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
  devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
  mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
  how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
  want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
 
 With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking 
 about it being related to devotion.

Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the
program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he
wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to 
teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the
mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 snip
 I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
 devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
 as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
 that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
 
 It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
 is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
 bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
 devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
 mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
 how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
 want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
 
 With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking 
 about it being related to devotion.
 
 Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the
 program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he
 wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to 
 teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the
 mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.

Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same 
place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached 
from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead to 
Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL.

What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just 
curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in 
the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have 
a decent idea by now.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are?

Boy, I'm sorry, but I don't know what that question
even means. I do TM and the TM-Sidhis, then I go about
my business. You'll have to be more specific if you
want me to say anything beyond that.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-17 Thread raunchydog


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
  I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being
  devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight
  as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way
  that is more vague than you tend to prefer.
  
  It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want
  is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations--
  bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and
  devotion to the master as a means of implementing the
  mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and
  how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you
  want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
  
  With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking 
  about it being related to devotion.
  
  Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the
  program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he
  wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to 
  teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the
  mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.
 
 Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same 
 place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached 
 from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead 
 to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL.
 
 What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just 
 curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything 
 in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should 
 have a decent idea by now.


My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path is for the 
ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is from here to here. It's a 
blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river and a brunette on the 
other. The brunette yells across the river to the blonde, How do you get to 
the other side? The blonde replies. You're already there.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Richard J. Williams


However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular 
intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual
people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized.
As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it
suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the 
phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
   
   Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you
   refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or
   something?
  
authfriend:
 I'm sorry, Buck, I miswrote. The example you referred to
 was one of *secular*, not spiritual, intransigence. And
 you seemed to be speaking of something very specific that
 you'd just encountered recently, so I was intrigued.
 
Guess Buck is still busy meditating. 

Buck didn't define 'meditation', so we don't even know what 
he is talking about. It has already been established that 
meditation means to 'think things over', but does Buck 
practice TM or does he practice a secular type of meditation?

Meditation has been defined as 'a conscious mental process 
that induces a set of integrated physiological changes 
termed the relaxation response'.

Work Cited:

'Meditation: An Introduction'
Uses of Meditation for Health in the United States.
NCCAM (National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine) 




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Richard J. Williams
   However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular
   intransigence...
  
  Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you
  refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or
  something?
 
Buck:
 Dear Authfriend,
 I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators
 here who pollute the pages of FFL with their non-meditaton
 rhetoric. You know what I mean an who they are. It was the
 usual ones...

Fer chrissaskes, Buck, why didn't you pipe up when they
posted that rumor about MMY murdering his master, SBS?
It looks to me like a lot of informants here can't even defend
their own guru, much less dialog about deep meditation!

Where I come from, silence usually indicates agreement.

294401 294401  , 264027 264027  , etc, etc, etc



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Richard J. Williams


  Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which 
  is almost exactly what the term transcendental... 
 
  meditation means, 'beyond thought'.
 
Vaj:
 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is 
 meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest 
 thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where 
 samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation 
 necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or 
 Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving 
 any object meditated on nor any subject who 
 meditates... 

It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse.

You've got to define first what meditation is, before
you can define non-meditation. You've been using
circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue)

The historical Buddha himself was said to have 
achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan 
tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two 
classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana, 
both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment. 

The former consists of practices aimed at developing 
the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly; 
the latter includes practices aimed at developing 
insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of 
reality.

 It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in 
 which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' 
 or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to 
 meditation on brahman, which really is not a 
 conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation 
 doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, 
 either is perfectly fine.

According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally 
comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to 
measure'. From the root med are also derived the 
English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It 
entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin 
'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of 
physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved 
into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'.

Work cited:

'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)'
by Georg Feuerstein
Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006
ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Richard J. Williams
  Although we are big on asking for objective proof
  of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
  to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
  requires you to take the dump truck silence test
  anytime soon...
 
Vaj:
 Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the
 one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very
 loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance.

According to Alexandra David-Neel, they used to do this
with a human thigh-trumpet.


  http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g


In the U.S. we have other sounds to deal with, like
amplified sirens on ambulances.

One of the reasons that TM studies are more relevant is
because unlike most meditation techniques, TM doesn't
rely on 'focused concentration' or attention. There is
a single-object, the bija mantra, but it is not an
object of concentration and it does not get focused
attention. The bija is experienced just like any other
thought.

The problem with 'deity' visualizations is that these
types of concentrative meditation tend to keep one on
the ordinary conscious thinking level - transcending is
much slower in deity worship, if at all, than with TM.

A lot of Tibetan meditation is based on mood-making,
obviously. It's much easier to meditate with just an
abstract bija, used just like a non-semantic mnemonic
device.

A person has to go through years of training in Tibet
in order to learn how to visualize tantric dieties! It's
not at all practical for ordinary people.

Excerpts:

One of the methods chosen, one-pointedness—a fully
focused concentration on a single object of attention—
may be the most basic and universal of all practices,
found in one form or another in every spiritual tradition
that employs meditation.

The final meditation technique, visualization, entailed
constructing in the mind's eye an image of the
elaborately intricate details of a Tibetan Buddhist
deity.

Shambhala Sun:
http://tinyurl.com/nnx2vs http://tinyurl.com/nnx2vs

'Magic and Mystery in Tibet'
BY Alexandra David-Neel
Penguin, 1971
http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote:

 Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which 
 is almost exactly what the term transcendental... 

 meditation means, 'beyond thought'.

 Vaj:
 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is 
 meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest 
 thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where 
 samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation 
 necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or 
 Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving 
 any object meditated on nor any subject who 
 meditates... 

 It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse.
 
 You've got to define first what meditation is, before
 you can define non-meditation. You've been using
 circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue)
 
 The historical Buddha himself was said to have 
 achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan 
 tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two 
 classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana, 
 both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment. 
 
 The former consists of practices aimed at developing 
 the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly; 
 the latter includes practices aimed at developing 
 insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of 
 reality.
 
 It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in 
 which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' 
 or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to 
 meditation on brahman, which really is not a 
 conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation 
 doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, 
 either is perfectly fine.

 According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally 
 comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to 
 measure'. From the root med are also derived the 
 English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It 
 entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin 
 'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of 
 physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved 
 into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'.
 
 Work cited:
 
 'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)'
 by Georg Feuerstein
 Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006
 ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732

Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of 
it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may 
have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those 
that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. 
It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease 
that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected 
by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Meditation as a 
specific kind of practice does not seem to naturally to occur to almost 
everybody, it is a behaviour learned from a very few that discovered these 
processes. So blaming the non meditators for not doing what oneself is doing 
seems kind of pointless.

Interesting that you brought up Parmenides. My given name is a derivative of 
the name of the man who is thought to be Parmenides teacher, something I only 
discovered by following the link to in the wikipedia article to one about 
Xenophanes. I never knew that. I always rather liked Parmenides.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Vaj


On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:

Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just  
riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we  
saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to  
those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and  
possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me  
he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that  
by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow  
infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their  
influence.


Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers.  
'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker  
though...

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Bhairitu
On 02/16/2012 10:03 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williamsrichard@...  
 wrote:
 Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which
 is almost exactly what the term transcendental...

 meditation means, 'beyond thought'.

 Vaj:
 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is
 meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest
 thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where
 samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation
 necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or
 Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving
 any object meditated on nor any subject who
 meditates...

 It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse.

 You've got to define first what meditation is, before
 you can define non-meditation. You've been using
 circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue)

 The historical Buddha himself was said to have
 achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan
 tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two
 classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana,
 both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment.

 The former consists of practices aimed at developing
 the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly;
 the latter includes practices aimed at developing
 insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of
 reality.

 It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in
 which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon'
 or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to
 meditation on brahman, which really is not a
 conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation
 doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts,
 either is perfectly fine.

 According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally
 comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to
 measure'. From the root med are also derived the
 English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It
 entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin
 'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of
 physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved
 into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'.

 Work cited:

 'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)'
 by Georg Feuerstein
 Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006
 ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732
 Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off 
 of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck 
 may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or 
 those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not 
 practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of 
 social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are 
 somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their 
 influence. Meditation as a specific kind of practice does not seem to 
 naturally to occur to almost everybody, it is a behaviour learned from a very 
 few that discovered these processes. So blaming the non meditators for not 
 doing what oneself is doing seems kind of pointless.

 Interesting that you brought up Parmenides. My given name is a derivative of 
 the name of the man who is thought to be Parmenides teacher, something I only 
 discovered by following the link to in the wikipedia article to one about 
 Xenophanes. I never knew that. I always rather liked Parmenides.

The reason that I asked Buck what he meant by non-meditator was to be 
sure he wasn't referring to only to people who don't practice TM.  That, 
of course, would be a very narrow definition.  However, I think Buck has 
mentioned he has seen saints so may also have tried other meditation.  
TM is a meditation for what yogis refer to as meditation for the 
general public.  Advanced techniques given by most gurus usually 
include an initiation into a guru or key mantra.  That mantra is very 
powerful and something you would not give to the general public but to 
initiates you feel can handle such a meditation.  That said, I feel most 
here could handle it.

One Indian astrologer who did a reading for me saw that I had become a 
TM teacher and thought that was good.  When I told him I had doubts 
about the technique he said doesn't matter, once initiated you can use 
any mantra you want.  That is somewhat true and why we should discount 
any former TM'er who has left the movement and taught meditation to 
other people successfully without using a puja and doesn't feel it is 
needed.  We just don't know how much their prior practice has allowed 
them to charge any mantra without doing any puja to charge up.  Most 
gurus would determine when you are charged enough to teach meditation 
and then allow you to do so and there is no need to perform a puja.

I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on 
to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.






[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Buck


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 
  Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just  
  riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we  
  saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to  
  those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and  
  possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me  
  he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that  
  by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow  
  infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their  
  influence.
 
 Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers.  
 'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker  
 though...


Exactly too.
Absolutely, it is about field effect of different classes.  Meditator, quitter, 
 non.  The Science is prescient and the public policy implication is evidently 
clear.  I shoud urge you all to meditation and to support the important work of 
the Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy.  
http://istpp.org/

It is time for real meditators to rally, not run away.

In the Field,
-Buck, Ph 7 

p.s., Of course the problem with non meditation is that it is such a poor field 
with bad effect.  If you'd could see how bad it is then you'd know.  For 
everyone's benefit this all needs to be changed for the better.  With more 
effective meditation.  Meditators to the front!




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote:

 
 I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on 
 to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.


I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were 
initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Yifu
That website will rot your brain, for sure.  Hagelin has no demonstrable 
Sidhis. He's promoting demon-infected programs. 
...
Here's a better website:
http://www.optoutprescreen.com



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  
  On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
  
   Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just  
   riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we  
   saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to  
   those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and  
   possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me  
   he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that  
   by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow  
   infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their  
   influence.
  
  Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers.  
  'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker  
  though...
 
 
 Exactly too.
 Absolutely, it is about field effect of different classes.  Meditator, 
 quitter,  non.  The Science is prescient and the public policy implication 
 is evidently clear.  I shoud urge you all to meditation and to support the 
 important work of the Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy.  
 http://istpp.org/
 
 It is time for real meditators to rally, not run away.
 
 In the Field,
 -Buck, Ph 7 
 
 p.s., Of course the problem with non meditation is that it is such a poor 
 field with bad effect.  If you'd could see how bad it is then you'd know.  
 For everyone's benefit this all needs to be changed for the better.  With 
 more effective meditation.  Meditators to the front!





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Bhairitu
On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@...  wrote:


 I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
 to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.

 I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were 
 initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)

And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)

However, I highly suspect that Maharishi knew his product was meditation 
for the general public and pleased as any teacher would be that his 
former students were interested in learning more and beyond the scope of 
the TM movement.  Similarly when I taught beginning keyboards I was 
pleased when I had a student or two who was ready to move on to a more 
serious classical teacher.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote:

 On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:
 
 
  I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
  to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
 
  I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were 
  initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
 
 And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)

Who are they ?







[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Buck
The world could be a better place.

Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice.  
For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the 
Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are meditators.  A group 
of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, 
you should be a regimental Colonel.

Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a 
colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's regiment 
from the Golden State!

We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm going 
to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you .  I've 
got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators.  I'm in 
the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  Bhairitu, the Unified 
Field's speed to you!  Ride!
In the service of the Unified Field,
-Buck



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
 
  On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:
  
  
   I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
   to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
  
   I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
   were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
  
  And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
 
 Who are they ?





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-16 Thread Yifu
2-nd Dragoon Regiment General: (by Mikael Aguirre)...
http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/5/40331.jpg

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 The world could be a better place.
 
 Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. 
  For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the 
 Unified Field in their practice.  Gather friends who are meditators.  A group 
 of 100 makes a company.  Ten companies makes a regiment.  Rajas hoot in hell, 
 you should be a regimental Colonel.
 
 Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a 
 colonelcy and also your regiment named after you!  Colonel Bhairitu's 
 regiment from the Golden State!
 
 We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very 
 group.  I'm desperately low on posts here this week now.  Bhairitu, I'm going 
 to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you .  I've 
 got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators.  I'm in 
 the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley.  Bhairitu, the Unified 
 Field's speed to you!  Ride!
 In the service of the Unified Field,
 -Buck
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  
   On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@  wrote:
   
   
I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on
to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
   
I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who 
were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
   
   And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-)
  
  Who are they ?
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread turquoiseb
Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the
years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting to
me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And
interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own
experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist
teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away.

*Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack for
being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically. When
discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher
aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't just
talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such that
you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about, *as*
he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of
Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about more
occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start
talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything* he
had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was now
completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes ago
was true is now either true any more, or relevant.

I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you put
it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the pursuit
of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that you
know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some
extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the world
around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound
weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more accurate
view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it.

That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic rendering
of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating
beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only ONE
state is like believing that white is the only color in the world. I'm
much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of mind,
in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking state
state of attention, each of them as different from one another as MMY's
simplistic waking state is from Unity.

That said, I disagree strongly with his statement, Unity is real,
diversity is conceptual. It's ALL real. To believe otherwise is still
(IMO) to be caught up in a hierarchical view of consciousness, in which
some experiences can be said to be higher or better or more real
than others. Just more conceptual twaddle IMO.

What if everything I knew was wrong is not a challenging question, but
a liberating one. IMO the more you think you know about reality and how
it all works, the less you know. And the less likely you are ever to
experience it as reality.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius
anartaxius@... wrote:

 Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My
early experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related
to Buddhist practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep
(though at the time I thought they were). The emphasis intellectually
however was on direct experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on
seeing that a lot of what we consider real is just a conceptual overlay
on perception, and that that overlay controls our behaviour.

 After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done
previously, I spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However
after many years I found I was forgetting the insights I had previously
gained. As the TM movement branched out into all sorts of auxilliary
techniques and 'vedas' (e.g. sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting
distracted. As a natural sceptic, eventually I scaled down or discarded
most of this additional load, just maintaining TM. Instead of reading
spiritual stuff I read science fiction, westerns, books by atheists.
Then I just sort of stopped, except for meditation. One day, out of the
blue, the conceptual framework of my experience simply blew away.

 Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from
a dream. In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper,
and I find I am much less attached to conceptual models, though of
course I still must use them for practical things. The strange thing is
this is the experience that is aimed at with meditation. It actually
seems to come after everything seems to stop working pretty much. It is
really mysterious, because it is also possible to lose the effect of the
experience if a particularly difficult stress starts to release.
Eventually it becomes more stable.

 Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it.
It is so simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is
easy to get totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Buck


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote:

 On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote:
  Non-meditation
 
  It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what 
  it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We 
  are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and 
  are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have 
  made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same 
  attitude.
 
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
  may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
  technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
  conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
  about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
 
  The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
  to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
  your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
  Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
  world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
  for meditation even in our homes. If you
  are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
  developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
  persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
  cities throughout the world.
 
 
In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
  negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
  Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation.
 
  -Buck in FF
 
 Who are the non-meditators, Buck?


Well, according to the best of science being done, non-meditators evidently are 
our communal problem.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Buck


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Buck wrote:
 
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular  
  intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people  
  feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will  
  see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is  
  worth thinking
  about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
 
 
 I thought meditation lead to non-meditation. Therefore, non- 
 meditation is the goal of meditation.
 

Om no, no, no. I'm talking about non-meditators.

 I got to get going on my first meditation this morning.
 After meditation I'm shoeing horses all day an don't got time for this kind of 
non-meditation sophistry.
Howevr, you could have and they do still do check meditation for free at local 
Peace Palaces.
Have a nice day.
Peace, 
-Buck   



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:

 On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote:
 Non-meditation

 It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten�or never 
 knew�what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific 
 rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of 
 principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. 
 Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to 
 adopt this same attitude.

 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
 may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
 technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
 conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
 about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.

 The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
 to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
 your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
 Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
 world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
 for meditation even in our homes. If you
 are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
 developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally�and the 
 persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
 cities throughout the world.


 In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
 negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
 Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation.

 -Buck in FF
 
 Who are the non-meditators, Buck?

 
 Well, according to the best of science being done, non-meditators evidently 
 are our communal problem.

This does not seem to be an answer to the question Buck. Who are the 
non-meditators? And what is the best of science being done? What about the 
Rajas? They would seem to be meditators, and you seem to think they are a 
problem. I think you need to more clearly state what you mean.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Vaj


On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:

In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it  
eventually dissolves into other states.


CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems.  
It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman  
consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional.



Meditation is still required.


Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished  
via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation  
any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in  
perception.


In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually  
becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process  
eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want  
to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation  
starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to  
incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the  
outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care  
of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is  
divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is  
a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction  
into the world is begun.


It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita  
vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior  
transitional state.


I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who  
said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the  
world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a  
partial experience of life.


 In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation  
is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject  
who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in  
which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.'


Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and  
perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of  
misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away.  
However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me,  
maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time  
being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be  
interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up  
front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at  
all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has  
done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other  
esoteric designations.


 This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which  
really is not a conventional object.


The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the  
totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can  
only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not  
refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This  
is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects,  
and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all  
basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion  
with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to  
dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they  
all have something in common, and it is the experience of that  
singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms  
used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically  
become mute.


In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic  
Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara  
also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is  
actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very  
end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go.


 Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts  
or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine.


Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a  
thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill  
temper in life.


No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear  
is what eventually dissipates  the samskaras. Retreating into silence  
just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to  
meditation techniques.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Robert


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 
  Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what 
  the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'.
 
 
 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. 
 In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where 
 samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context 
 of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any 
 object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the 
 fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated 
 upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on 
 brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of 
 non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is 
 perfectly fine.

In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'...
Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses it and only 
experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in dream state and a gap of 
any experience during deep sleep.
With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to experience subtlety 
of thought and the transcedence of thought, and the experience of pure being 
when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts' and one is 'awake inside'...This awake 
inside, begins to be experienced further during sutra practice as one has the 
experience
 of pure being along with diversity...
This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most important step in 
the process of developing 'Unity of Consciousness'...duality begins the process 
of unity...where you are experiencing the difference between 'Any' 
manifestation with that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so,
As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this finest level of 
thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of perception of anything, that 
is contrasted with Pure Being, Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing.

At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is a 'Gap' of 
experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception of thought at that 
finest level of feeling.

Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually hidden becomes 
seen as associated with space, light, prana, that finest space between manifest 
and unmanifest
Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire creation, 
experienced within yourself as Brahman.
The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand Finale'..
The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm.
So,
With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest 'Point'. of 
awareness:
 the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely and ego 
becomes undifferentiated in Brahman.
Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the pinnicle of 
experience, you then walk on the highest plateau..
It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest, awareness of the 
gap.. which can with practice become stablized in awareness, but not many 
humans have the patience and courage to go that far...wide and deep.

Baba




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Vaj


On Feb 15, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Robert wrote:




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:


 On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:

  Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost  
exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond  
thought'.



 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non- 
meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya- 
samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no  
meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or  
Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object  
meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the  
fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be  
'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to  
meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object.  
Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or  
no thoughts, either is perfectly fine.


In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'...
Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses  
it and only experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in  
dream state and a gap of any experience during deep sleep.
With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to  
experience subtlety of thought and the transcedence of thought, and  
the experience of pure being when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts'  
and one is 'awake inside'...This awake inside, begins to be  
experienced further during sutra practice as one has the experience

of pure being along with diversity...
This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most  
important step in the process of developing 'Unity of  
Consciousness'...duality begins the process of unity...where you  
are experiencing the difference between 'Any' manifestation with  
that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so,
As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this  
finest level of thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of  
perception of anything, that is contrasted with Pure Being,  
Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing.


At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is  
a 'Gap' of experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception  
of thought at that finest level of feeling.


Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually  
hidden becomes seen as associated with space, light, prana, that  
finest space between manifest and unmanifest
Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire  
creation, experienced within yourself as Brahman.
The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand  
Finale'..

The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm.
So,
With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest  
'Point'. of awareness:
the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely  
and ego becomes undifferentiated in Brahman.
Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the  
pinnicle of experience, you then walk on the highest plateau..
It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest,  
awareness of the gap.. which can with practice become stablized in  
awareness, but not many humans have the patience and courage to go  
that far...wide and deep.


Sounds great on paper.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 
 In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it  
 eventually dissolves into other states.
 
 CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems.  
 It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman  
 consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional.
 
 Meditation is still required.
 
 Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished  
 via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation  
 any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in  
 perception.
 
 In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually  
 becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process  
 eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want  
 to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation  
 starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to  
 incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the  
 outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care  
 of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is  
 divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is  
 a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction  
 into the world is begun.
 
 It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita  
 vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior  
 transitional state.
 
 I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who  
 said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the  
 world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a  
 partial experience of life.

 In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation  
 is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject  
 who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in  
 which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.'

 Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and  
 perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of  
 misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away.  
 However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me,  
 maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time  
 being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be  
 interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up  
 front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at  
 all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has  
 done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other  
 esoteric designations.

 This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which  
 really is not a conventional object.

 The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the  
 totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can  
 only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not  
 refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This  
 is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects,  
 and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all  
 basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion  
 with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to  
 dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they  
 all have something in common, and it is the experience of that  
 singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms  
 used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically  
 become mute.
 
 In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic  
 Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara  
 also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is  
 actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very  
 end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go.
 
 Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts  
 or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine.

 Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a  
 thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill  
 temper in life.
 
 No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear  
 is what eventually dissipates  the samskaras. Retreating into silence  
 just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to  
 meditation techniques.

This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A 
lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but 
as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning 
should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump 
truck.

As for all these descriptions of levels of experience. They can sometimes be 
helpful, but eventually you just have to 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread turquoiseb
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then 
  disappear is what eventually dissipates  the samskaras. 
  Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state 
  of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.
 
 This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one 
 retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to 
 this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse 
 to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was 
 mentioning should still be there even if you are being 
 crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.

Although we are big on asking for objective proof
of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths 
requires you to take the dump truck silence test 
anytime soon. :-)




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Vaj


On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius  
anartaxius@... wrote:


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then
  disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras.
  Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state
  of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.

 This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one
 retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to
 this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse
 to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was
 mentioning should still be there even if you are being
 crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.

Although we are big on asking for objective proof
of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
requires you to take the dump truck silence test
anytime soon. :-)


Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested  
Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper  
threshold of human tolerance.


http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the
 years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting to
 me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And
 interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own
 experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist
 teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away.
 
 *Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack for
 being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically. When
 discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher
 aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't just
 talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such that
 you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about, *as*
 he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of
 Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about more
 occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start
 talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything* he
 had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was now
 completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes ago
 was true is now either true any more, or relevant.
 
 I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you put
 it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the pursuit
 of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that you
 know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some
 extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the world
 around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound
 weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more accurate
 view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it.

That is rather like what I thought I was saying.

 
 That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic rendering
 of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating
 beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only ONE
 state is like believing that white is the only color in the world. I'm
 much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of mind,
 in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking state
 state of attention, each of them as different from one another as MMY's
 simplistic waking state is from Unity.

I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication 
on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement 
facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world 
high school. I was looking for a meal, and came late. There was pizza and ice 
cream, but I couldn't find a spoon, and finally I found a spoon in a tray of 
dirty dishes. Then the dream wandered on to something about drilling in sand, 
and that there were different kinds of drill bits one had to use depending on 
how deep one wanted to drill. Some time was spent trying to figure out which 
bit was for what depth, and in the dream, the drill bits did not really 
resemble real drilling bits, but looked like square boxes of metal with various 
things sticking out of them. Then I woke up, lying in bed. Ugh. Waking up did 
not feel particularly better than the dream. Both were experiences. But both 
these experiences have a thread of commonality in them. You once agreed with a 
statement I made saying the MMY scenario was basically kind of like a general 
average of possibilities. Up to a point my experiences conformed to this. It 
gives a vision of possibilities to people who have no clue about spiritual 
experiences but at some point it might become a liability. You have to remember 
people often asked Maharishi all kinds of really stupid questions, and he had 
to come up with something to satisfy their hunger for what they sought. Maybe 
Maharishi was a victim of the stupidest group of students in the universe - us!

 
 That said, I disagree strongly with his statement, Unity is real,
 diversity is conceptual. It's ALL real. To believe otherwise is still
 (IMO) to be caught up in a hierarchical view of consciousness, in which
 some experiences can be said to be higher or better or more real
 than others. Just more conceptual twaddle IMO.

A statement like Unity is real, diversity is conceptual.' is useful for 
mentally grasping the import of experience, especially if one has the 
experience of conceptuality being blown off. In the end though, I think what 
you say here is right, in time it just no longer comes up. Zen masters 
sometimes tell their students to just stop having concepts and opinions, which 
does not mean one will not have them, but that it can become possible to 
appreciate experience without being sucked into those ideas that spontaneously 
form in our minds as a result of 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread turquoiseb
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius  
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
   
No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then
disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras.
Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state
of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.
  
   This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one
   retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to
   this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse
   to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was
   mentioning should still be there even if you are being
   crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.
 
  Although we are big on asking for objective proof
  of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
  to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
  requires you to take the dump truck silence test
  anytime soon. :-)
 
 Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they 
 tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the 
 upper threshold of human tolerance.

You mean like the dynamite going off every few
minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca?  :-)


 http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread awoelflebater
Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother in law were on 
that course. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius  
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:

 No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then
 disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras.
 Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state
 of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.
   
This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one
retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to
this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse
to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was
mentioning should still be there even if you are being
crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.
  
   Although we are big on asking for objective proof
   of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
   to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
   requires you to take the dump truck silence test
   anytime soon. :-)
  
  Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they 
  tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the 
  upper threshold of human tolerance.
 
 You mean like the dynamite going off every few
 minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca?  :-)
 
 
  http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread turquoiseb
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@... wrote:

 Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother 
 in law were on that course. 

1972. The first half of what has become known as the
Mallorca-Fiuggi course was there in La Antilla. Inter-
estingly enough, I never found the dynamite to be that
big a distraction, but many people did.

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
   On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius  
anartaxius@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then
  disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras.
  Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state
  of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.

 This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one
 retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to
 this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse
 to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was
 mentioning should still be there even if you are being
 crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.
   
Although we are big on asking for objective proof
of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
requires you to take the dump truck silence test
anytime soon. :-)
   
   Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they 
   tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the 
   upper threshold of human tolerance.
  
  You mean like the dynamite going off every few
  minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca?  :-)
  
  
   http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Robert


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 15, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Robert wrote:
 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
  
   On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
  
Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost  
  exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond  
  thought'.
  
  
   In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non- 
  meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya- 
  samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no  
  meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or  
  Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object  
  meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the  
  fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be  
  'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to  
  meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object.  
  Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or  
  no thoughts, either is perfectly fine.
  
  In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'...
  Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses  
  it and only experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in  
  dream state and a gap of any experience during deep sleep.
  With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to  
  experience subtlety of thought and the transcedence of thought, and  
  the experience of pure being when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts'  
  and one is 'awake inside'...This awake inside, begins to be  
  experienced further during sutra practice as one has the experience
  of pure being along with diversity...
  This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most  
  important step in the process of developing 'Unity of  
  Consciousness'...duality begins the process of unity...where you  
  are experiencing the difference between 'Any' manifestation with  
  that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so,
  As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this  
  finest level of thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of  
  perception of anything, that is contrasted with Pure Being,  
  Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing.
 
  At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is  
  a 'Gap' of experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception  
  of thought at that finest level of feeling.
 
  Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually  
  hidden becomes seen as associated with space, light, prana, that  
  finest space between manifest and unmanifest
  Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire  
  creation, experienced within yourself as Brahman.
  The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand  
  Finale'..
  The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm.
  So,
  With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest  
  'Point'. of awareness:
  the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely  
  and ego becomes undifferentiated in Brahman.
  Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the  
  pinnicle of experience, you then walk on the highest plateau..
  It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest,  
  awareness of the gap.. which can with practice become stablized in  
  awareness, but not many humans have the patience and courage to go  
  that far...wide and deep.
 
 Sounds great on paper.

I know, you're right!
I guess that's why Maharishi felt it was so rare to be in the presence of one 
that had reached that state, and always gave the credit to him that brought him 
to that state himself...
But, perhaps it is possible for more people to reach and understand in due 
time...whatever that means.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread turquoiseb
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the
  years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting
to
  me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And
  interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own
  experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist
  teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away.
 
  *Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack
for
  being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically.
When
  discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher
  aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't
just
  talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such
that
  you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about,
*as*
  he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of
  Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about
more
  occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start
  talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything*
he
  had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was
now
  completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes
ago
  was true is now either true any more, or relevant.
 
  I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you
put
  it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the
pursuit
  of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that
you
  know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some
  extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the
world
  around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound
  weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more
accurate
  view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it.

 That is rather like what I thought I was saying.

I wasn't trying to disagree with you, merely to riff on your (good)
ideas.

On the whole (and knowing that some here are going to glom onto this
remark as somehow insulting or elitist), I think that the tendency to
glom onto dogma and conceptual frameworks is related to the *pace of
change* inherent in different spiritual paths.

In Tibet, for example, there is a distinction commonly made between the
long path and the short path. Long path-ers would in my opinion tend
to gravitate towards dogma and feeling that they know how things work,
because their subjective state of attention (and sometimes state of
consciousness) doesn't really change all that much, or all that quickly.
Short path-ers, whose state of attention or SOC is changing every few
days (or when in the presence of an empowerment teacher every few
seconds) would IMO be less liable to find conceptual descriptions of
reality accurate. Because their experience of it is ever-changing, as is
the reality itself.

When you come down to it, doesn't one's ability to hold a set of dogma
or a set of explanations about How It All Works to be accurate or
truth kinda depend on being stuck in one state of attention long
enough TO consider them unchanging?  :-)

  That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic
rendering
  of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating
  beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only
ONE
  state is like believing that white is the only color in the world.
I'm
  much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of
mind,
  in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking
state
  state of attention, each of them as different from one another as
MMY's
  simplistic waking state is from Unity.

 I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under
medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I
was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to
resemble being in a third world high school. I was looking for a meal,
and came late. There was pizza and ice cream, but I couldn't find a
spoon, and finally I found a spoon in a tray of dirty dishes. Then the
dream wandered on to something about drilling in sand, and that there
were different kinds of drill bits one had to use depending on how deep
one wanted to drill. Some time was spent trying to figure out which bit
was for what depth, and in the dream, the drill bits did not really
resemble real drilling bits, but looked like square boxes of metal with
various things sticking out of them. Then I woke up, lying in bed. Ugh.
Waking up did not feel particularly better than the dream. Both were
experiences. But both these experiences have a thread of commonality in
them. You once agreed with a statement I made saying the MMY scenario
was basically kind of like a general average of possibilities. Up to a

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread merudanda
HEJ  DUDE
This title construction noise...you should ask Jemima Pitman for help-
but she was a little busy wasn't she [:D]
here some photos:
  Mallorca, Spain
1972  January - March
an island in the Mediterranean off the east coast of Spain

Hotel Bahia del Este, Calla Millor, east side of the island




Fiuggi, Italy
1972  March - May
a medieval hilltown long known for its healing waters in the mountains
of the Latium Province about 50 southeast of Rome


Fiuggi Fonte (fountain)


Fiuggi Castle



Casamari Abbey --  in the Fiuggi countryside Mallorca, Spain
1972  January - March an island in the Mediterranean off the east coast
of Spain



bye bye romantic memories

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother
  in law were on that course.

 1972. The first half of what has become known as the
 Mallorca-Fiuggi course was there in La Antilla. Inter-
 estingly enough, I never found the dynamite to be that
 big a distraction, but many people did.

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
   
On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros
Anartaxius
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@
wrote:
  
   No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then
   disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras.
   Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state
   of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.
 
  This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one
  retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to
  this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse
  to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was
  mentioning should still be there even if you are being
  crushed under the wheels of a dump truck.

 Although we are big on asking for objective proof
 of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish
 to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths
 requires you to take the dump truck silence test
 anytime soon. :-)
   
Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they
tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the
upper threshold of human tolerance.
  
   You mean like the dynamite going off every few
   minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca?  :-)
  
  
   
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
  
 




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am
 under medication on the advice of a physician). I was
 dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in
 my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world
 high school.

Utterly tangential to the topic of the thread, I also have
persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility,
specifically a residence course facility: the people in 
the dream don't know each other but have all come together
to stay in the facility for a few days for some common
purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context.

But neither the setting nor the plot ever has anything
explicitly to do with TM. I assume the setting refers to a
residence course facility because residence courses are
the only life experiences I've had that fit this pattern.

The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels
or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world
schools. The plots are all different as well, but one
frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility,
e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or
going back and forth from a room in one part of the
facility to another in a part of the facility far distant
from it.

I remember in one dream one of the CPs was Richard Nixon,
and he was, in his self-conscious, awkward, socially inept
manner, trying to flirt with me, which in the dream I
thought was hilarious. Never figured that one out (but 
after I woke up I was fascinated that the dream had
captured his personality so perfectly). Most of my dreams
are so obscure I don't try to analyze them anyway.

[Barry wrote:]
  What if everything I knew was wrong is not a challenging 
  question, but a liberating one. IMO the more you think you
  know about reality and how it all works, the less you know.
  And the less likely you are ever to experience it as
  reality.
 
 I was replying to Judy here. I had formed a concept that she
 would find this difficult to do. I suspect this idea
 overstated her attachment to her own ideas,

You were very right about that! It's a basic assumption I
make, so to put it in the form of a What if... question
is meaningless. (Of course, a difficulty arises if the
premise includes itself: What if the assumption that
everything I know is wrong, is also wrong? Or, what if the
concepts I know and is wrong are themselves
meaningless? It's turtles all the way down.)




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 snip
  I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am
  under medication on the advice of a physician). I was
  dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in
  my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world
  high school.
 
 ...I also have
 persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility,
 specifically a residence course facility: the people in 
 the dream don't know each other but have all come together
 to stay in the facility for a few days for some common
 purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context.
 
snip
 
 The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels
 or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world
 schools. The plots are all different as well, but one
 frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility,
 e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or
 going back and forth from a room in one part of the
 facility to another in a part of the facility far distant
 from it.

My dreams of movement facilities are sometimes more involved, and I too am 
often searching to find my room, having left it and then trying to find my way 
back, and never finding out where it is again.

Meditation is hardly ever evident in the dreams, although I often experience an 
aversion to doing some kind of program with others in the dream, I want to go 
off and be by myself.

I never try to analyze my dreams, but if I remember them, they are often more 
entertaining that 'real' life.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread awoelflebater
When I go to bed at night I prepare myself for the equivalent of a three 
feature movie. My dreams are that clear, that long and usually entertaining. 
They average about three main themes per night. I can understand why I wake up 
just as tired as when I went to bed. That is a lot of work doing all that stuff 
all night long. I can't imagine being unconscious for 7 or 8 hours. I kind of 
hope I'm getting smarter and wiser after such a full 24 hours every day. But 
I'm not yet convinced of it.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
   I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am
   under medication on the advice of a physician). I was
   dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in
   my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world
   high school.
  
  ...I also have
  persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility,
  specifically a residence course facility: the people in 
  the dream don't know each other but have all come together
  to stay in the facility for a few days for some common
  purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context.
  
 snip
  
  The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels
  or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world
  schools. The plots are all different as well, but one
  frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility,
  e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or
  going back and forth from a room in one part of the
  facility to another in a part of the facility far distant
  from it.
 
 My dreams of movement facilities are sometimes more involved, and I too am 
 often searching to find my room, having left it and then trying to find my 
 way back, and never finding out where it is again.
 
 Meditation is hardly ever evident in the dreams, although I often experience 
 an aversion to doing some kind of program with others in the dream, I want to 
 go off and be by myself.
 
 I never try to analyze my dreams, but if I remember them, they are often more 
 entertaining that 'real' life.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread Robert


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 
  In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it  
  eventually dissolves into other states.
 
 CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems.  
 It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman  
 consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional.
 
  Meditation is still required.
 
 Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished  
 via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation  
 any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in  
 perception.
 
  In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually  
  becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process  
  eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want  
  to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation  
  starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to  
  incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the  
  outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care  
  of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is  
  divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is  
  a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction  
  into the world is begun.
 
 It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita  
 vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior  
 transitional state.
 
  I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who  
  said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the  
  world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a  
  partial experience of life.
 
   In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation  
  is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject  
  who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in  
  which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.'
 
  Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and  
  perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of  
  misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away.  
  However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me,  
  maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time  
  being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be  
  interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up  
  front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at  
  all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has  
  done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other  
  esoteric designations.
 
   This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which  
  really is not a conventional object.
 
  The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the  
  totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can  
  only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not  
  refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This  
  is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects,  
  and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all  
  basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion  
  with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to  
  dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they  
  all have something in common, and it is the experience of that  
  singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms  
  used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically  
  become mute.
 
 In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic  
 Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara  
 also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is  
 actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very  
 end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go.
 
   Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts  
  or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine.
 
  Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a  
  thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill  
  temper in life.
 
 No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear  
 is what eventually dissipates  the samskaras. Retreating into silence  
 just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to  
 meditation techniques.

The samskaras resolve themselves when they are viewed in terms of Self.
When the witness to thoughts is established then self-referral is a natural 
process and this produces the experience of subtler states of what caused the 
whole process to begin with...
It is only when the thing is hidden that it remains as if apart from Being.
When Being is Established so that self-referral 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-15 Thread raunchydog


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote:

 The samskaras resolve themselves when they are viewed in terms of Self.
 When the witness to thoughts is established then self-referral is a natural 
 process and this produces the experience of subtler states of what caused the 
 whole process to begin with...
 It is only when the thing is hidden that it remains as if apart from Being.
 When Being is Established so that self-referral becomes a natural process 
 then what is hidden, that is  the apparent solidness of any experience, then 
 becomes more transclucent in that Being and the subtlest aspect of 
 manifestation show any phenomenal experience to be just a manifestion of 
 Being. 
 Being~ Becoming
 Perception and loses it's object oriented self, and instead is viewed in 
 terms of the Self'...
 So, if everything is viewed in terms of Self or Soul, then there is no longer 
 object and subject;
 Object and Subject are unified and this is what happens in Brahman 
 Consciousness.
 Experience of Brahman is always in terms of 'Self-Referral'...
 Another aspect of experiencing Brahman is Bliss, because Brahman is Bliss, 
 and Bliss is Brahman.


And then, in the illumination of universal love, the abstract love of God 
finds concrete expression in everything. All becomes divine radiance of eternal 
love. Life finds its meaning in the living presence of God. Every phase of life 
then saturated with love breathes the living presence of God. Here, there, and 
everywhere, in this, that, and everything. Nothing but love and living presence 
of God. This is how, gradually, the personal love naturally moves on to gain 
the status of universal love. And universal love moves on to find its 
expression in personal love.
Love and God, Maharishi



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Richard J. Williams


Buck:
 Certainly a human life is a terrible 
 potential to waste in non-meditation. 
 
Or, I guess it all depends on how you 
can define 'meditation'. According to
MMY, meditation is based on thinking.

Meditation means simply 'to think 
things over'. 

If so, then everyone meditates. 

There's probably not a person on the 
planet who doesn't pause once or twice 
a day to take stock of their own mind 
contents.

And, we're all transcending - even 
without a specific technique! TM is 
just a more direct angle of diving.

But, the question is: do you enjoy?

Recently, I sat with Jokusho Kwong, 
the roshi of the Sononma Zen Center, 
when I visited my daughter in Santa 
Rosa. I've known the roshi since the 
days when I sat with Suzuki at the San 
Francisco Zen Center. I know that up 
in northern California lots of people 
practice various types of 'zen' 
meditation.

Sonoma Mountain Zen Center:
http://www.smzc.net/

Based on what Kwong said, I would say 
that at least HALF of the northern 
state of California meditates in one
form or another! Go figure.

meditation

–noun

1 to think calm thoughts in order to 
relax or as a religious activity:
Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every 
day.

2 to think seriously about something 
for a long time: He meditated on the 
consequences of his decision.

Source:

Cambridge University Dictionary:
http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Buck wrote:

 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular
 intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people
 feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will
 see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is
 worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation
 the delusion.

 I thought meditation lead to non-meditation. Therefore, non-
 meditation is the goal of meditation.

 No meditation! No discipline! The pure mind that is the nature of
 all experience never comes into being or ceases to be; it cannot be
 created or destroyed: it has no structure. It cannot, therefore, be
 accessed through the structured activity of calculated discipline,
 and all goal-oriented meditation is such structured activity. Letting
 go of all practice whatsoever, including all the meditation
 techniques that condition the mind by focusing on an object of
 sight, sound or thought, there is no meditation and only an
 endless continuum of pure mind.
 --
 Whoever follows the ancient sages' path
 becomes sick from attachment to the meditation process;
 his teachers' literal instruction construed as a quest
 he chases a stream of concepts, as if pursuing a mirage:
 the perfect modality cannot be indicated by words
 and any 'true doctrine' is a travesty of Vajrasattva.

 Whether Buddhist, Hindu or Bon, the classical path of meditation
 is a snare and a delusion when attachment to it becomes obsessive
 and it becomes an end in itself. The habit of meditation becomes
 a disease when there is no liberating function in the process. It is
 a disease when a blissful trance state seemingly separates an
 arrogant yogin from his mind. But above all it is a disease simply
 because it is goal-oriented and promises attainment only if the
 present is prostituted to the future. This state of alienation is
 caused by mistaking mental constructs for the path, to mistake the
 shadow of the meaning expressed in words for the thing itself.

 The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The
 letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To
 take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality
 as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and
 method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment.
 Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the
 here-and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine
 professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Vajrasattva a mask of the
 ridiculous.

 - Keith Dowman (trans. and comment.)

I think Buck is rambling on like an old religionist harking for the good old 
days. In our thoughts of what we call 'past' and our thoughts about about what 
we term 'future' we see certain similarities, but if we look at this 
reasonably, nothing ever really repeats exactly. Things drift in new 
directions. The good old days will never be back: the idea is an illusion. 
There may be new good days, but they will be different.

Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the 
term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. Same thing essentially. 
Meditation systems are a trick to get us to experience the context of thought, 
which in TM terminology is called 'the transcendent', as if it were some kind 
of object. As long as the system, whatever it is, functions well, these 
techniques are useful and good. But at some point techniques become mostly 
fruitless, and this is when they have actually done their job. Maybe like 
waxing polishing and old car. A lot of work as far as time goes, but once it is 
done, only a little touch up here and there once in a while. Techniques can get 
in the way when perspective on their use is muddled.

The reason for meditating using any system is to get beyond conceptual thought 
and experience not only the context of thought but the relationship of thought 
with what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous. The problem every 
spiritual movement has is as time goes along, the conceptual framework by which 
is understood the reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure and 
group conformity becomes a mental prison just as imprisoning as the one one is 
supposedly escaping from by virtue of starting some meditation system.

Now the 'master', the original teacher may be free in this sense, but his or 
her followers are usually not, and they take up the charge, and if they end up 
in control of the developing tradition before their own meditation has run its 
course and they have been enlightened, because of the ingrained habit of taking 
concepts as the reality to which is aspired, they bring down the whole thing 
because there is insufficient perception among them to see what is happening, 
that they have fallen into the very trap from which they have meditated to 
escape.


[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:
snip
 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular 
 intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual
 people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized.
 As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it
 suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the 
 phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.

Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you
refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or
something?




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 The reason for meditating using any system is to get 
 beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the
 context of thought but the relationship of thought with
 what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous.

Given that this is the reason for meditating, then...

 The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes
 along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the
 reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure
 and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as
 imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by
 virtue of starting some meditation system.

...could you be more specific as to what about the
conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of
TM are understood has become a mental prison?

The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having
trouble translating it into its application for TM.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Bhairitu
On 02/13/2012 11:06 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@...  wrote:
 On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote:
 Non-meditation

 It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what 
 it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We 
 are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and 
 are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have 
 made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same 
 attitude.

 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
 may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
 technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
 conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
 about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.

 The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
 to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
 your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
 Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
 world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
 for meditation even in our homes. If you
 are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
 developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
 persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
 cities throughout the world.


In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
 negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
 Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation.

 -Buck in FF
 Who are the non-meditators, Buck?
 The majority here, there and everywhere. :-)

I practice meditation, just not TM. There are others here who practice 
other forms of meditation and often advanced ones.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@... wrote:

 Buck,
 
 The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators.  Yet in material terms, they 
 appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia.  They've bought 
 about one trillion dollars in US government bonds.  Are you saying they are 
 delusional?  


Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-)

Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash in 
on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ?



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread John


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
 
  Buck,
  
  The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators.  Yet in material terms, 
  they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia.  They've 
  bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds.  Are you saying 
  they are delusional?  
 
 
 Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-)
 
 Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash 
 in on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ?


Nabs,

That's a good observation.  I was hoping Buck would answer this question.

Regarding your question, I would think that the US Federal Reserve Bank has 
enough money to pay for two trillion dollars to cover both countries' demands.  
At the present moment, the Bank owns about six trillion dollars in government 
bonds.  However, the effect of paying those bonds would flood the world with 
excess dollars in the world market.  As such, the value of the dollar would 
plummet in the market.  Also, inflation of the American prices of goods would 
rise.


So, it would be wise for both countries to let their investments stay for the 
long run.

JR



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
  
   Buck,
   
   The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators.  Yet in material terms, 
   they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia.  
   They've bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds.  Are 
   you saying they are delusional?  
  
  
  Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-)
  
  Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash 
  in on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ?
 
 
 Nabs,
 
 That's a good observation.  I was hoping Buck would answer this question.
 
 Regarding your question, I would think that the US Federal Reserve Bank has 
 enough money to pay for two trillion dollars to cover both countries' 
 demands.  At the present moment, the Bank owns about six trillion dollars in 
 government bonds.  However, the effect of paying those bonds would flood the 
 world with excess dollars in the world market.  As such, the value of the 
 dollar would plummet in the market.  Also, inflation of the American prices 
 of goods would rise.
 
 
 So, it would be wise for both countries to let their investments stay for the 
 long run.
 
 JR


You are certainly well informed John. 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Buck


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
 snip
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular 
  intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual
  people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized.
  As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it
  suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the 
  phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
 
 Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you
 refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or
 something?


Dear Authfriend,
I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators here who pollute the pages 
of FFL with their non-meditaton rhetoric.  You know what I mean an who they 
are. It was the usual ones.  
Time is short now, I've got to run go join the meditation here and I am running 
out of posts.  Time to meditate. More later.
Best Regards,
-Buck 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
  snip
   However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular 
   intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual
   people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized.
   As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it
   suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the 
   phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
  
  Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you
  refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or
  something?

I'm sorry, Buck, I miswrote. The example you referred to
was one of *secular*, not spiritual, intransigence. And
you seemed to be speaking of something very specific that
you'd just encountered recently, so I was intrigued.

Still interested in what it was if you can spare a post.



 
 
 Dear Authfriend,
 I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators here who pollute the 
 pages of FFL with their non-meditaton rhetoric.  You know what I mean an who 
 they are. It was the usual ones.  
 Time is short now, I've got to run go join the meditation here and I am 
 running out of posts.  Time to meditate. More later.
 Best Regards,
 -Buck





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 snip
 The reason for meditating using any system is to get 
 beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the
 context of thought but the relationship of thought with
 what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous.
 
 Given that this is the reason for meditating, then...
 
 The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes
 along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the
 reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure
 and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as
 imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by
 virtue of starting some meditation system.
 
 ...could you be more specific as to what about the
 conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of
 TM are understood has become a mental prison?
 
 The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having
 trouble translating it into its application for TM.

Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My early 
experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related to Buddhist 
practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep (though at the time I 
thought they were). The emphasis intellectually however was on direct 
experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on seeing that a lot of what we 
consider real is just a conceptual overlay on perception, and that that overlay 
controls our behaviour.

After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done previously, I 
spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However after many years I 
found I was forgetting the insights I had previously gained. As the TM movement 
branched out into all sorts of auxilliary techniques and 'vedas' (e.g. 
sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting distracted. As a natural sceptic, 
eventually I scaled down or discarded most of this additional load, just 
maintaining TM. Instead of reading spiritual stuff I read science fiction, 
westerns, books by atheists. Then I just sort of stopped, except for 
meditation. One day, out of the blue, the conceptual framework of my experience 
simply blew away.

Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from a dream. 
In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper, and I find I am 
much less attached to conceptual models, though of course I still must use them 
for practical things. The strange thing is this is the experience that is aimed 
at with meditation. It actually seems to come after everything seems to stop 
working pretty much. It is really mysterious, because it is also possible to 
lose the effect of the experience if a particularly difficult stress starts to 
release. Eventually it becomes more stable.

Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it. It is so 
simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is easy to get 
totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience into the movement's sense 
of progression of experiences, but I began to reread and find new sources in 
other Eastern enlightenment traditions that seem to explain this experience 
much better. 

I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be buried in off-hand 
comments he has made. It is not directly spoken of, and so the focus on 
experiencing that one's conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, that 
one completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience, is diluted, and 
the attention is distracted to other pursuits, like balancing doshas and 
whatnot, and rectifying jyotish charts. This is all unnecessary unless it is 
the only way to keep someone meditating, which I do not believe is actually 
necessary because everyone is exactly what they are, every aspect of 
enlightenment is present all the time, and we are just distracted.

Talking about the goal that occurs when meditation matures is really helpful. 
Maharishi started out teaching people that had no clue as to what spiritual 
knowledge consisted of. There are many more people today who now have a clue, 
but the bulk of the material in the TMO, at least what we hear, is aimed at the 
beginners, and it pictures enlightenment in much rosier terms than it really 
is. He tended to leave out the hard parts, to make it attractive to busy people.

I think being intensely curious and probing one's own ideas and those of others 
helps a lot to kept from getting locked into a conceptual system. 
Conceptualisation is a tool to get through life. We grow up with it. It is what 
makes us forget who and what we are. I do not know what the best solution is, 
but meditating regularly, and a lot helps, but keeping the mind more flexible 
and not taking our ideas as seriously as we sometimes think they are, 
especially spiritual ideas, may help keep conceptualisation from overpowering 
the benefits of meditation.

Yet in the end, seeing 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread authfriend
Thanks for your response, Xeno. All I can say is that I was
pretty clear on this...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:
snip
 I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be
 buried in off-hand comments he has made. It is not directly
 spoken of, and so the focus on experiencing that one's
 conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, that one 
 completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience,
 is diluted, and the attention is distracted to other pursuits,
 like balancing doshas and whatnot, and rectifying jyotish
 charts.

...from fairly early on in my TM experience. Don't remember
now whether I heard it from a MMY tape or from TM teachers
or what. It did seem to go along with MMY's Knowledge is
different in different states of consciousness assertion.

In any case, as I recall, you've made some fairly dogmatic
conceptual statements about states of consciousness. You
hold your own state to be the standard, or so it has 
sometimes seemed to me.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread feste37


Two excellent posts today, Xenophaneros Anartaxius, I enjoyed them -- and much 
of what you say mirrors my own experience.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  snip
  The reason for meditating using any system is to get 
  beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the
  context of thought but the relationship of thought with
  what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous.
  
  Given that this is the reason for meditating, then...
  
  The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes
  along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the
  reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure
  and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as
  imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by
  virtue of starting some meditation system.
  
  ...could you be more specific as to what about the
  conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of
  TM are understood has become a mental prison?
  
  The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having
  trouble translating it into its application for TM.
 
 Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My early 
 experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related to 
 Buddhist practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep (though at 
 the time I thought they were). The emphasis intellectually however was on 
 direct experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on seeing that a lot of 
 what we consider real is just a conceptual overlay on perception, and that 
 that overlay controls our behaviour.
 
 After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done previously, I 
 spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However after many years I 
 found I was forgetting the insights I had previously gained. As the TM 
 movement branched out into all sorts of auxilliary techniques and 'vedas' 
 (e.g. sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting distracted. As a natural 
 sceptic, eventually I scaled down or discarded most of this additional load, 
 just maintaining TM. Instead of reading spiritual stuff I read science 
 fiction, westerns, books by atheists. Then I just sort of stopped, except for 
 meditation. One day, out of the blue, the conceptual framework of my 
 experience simply blew away.
 
 Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from a 
 dream. In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper, and I 
 find I am much less attached to conceptual models, though of course I still 
 must use them for practical things. The strange thing is this is the 
 experience that is aimed at with meditation. It actually seems to come after 
 everything seems to stop working pretty much. It is really mysterious, 
 because it is also possible to lose the effect of the experience if a 
 particularly difficult stress starts to release. Eventually it becomes more 
 stable.
 
 Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it. It is so 
 simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is easy to get 
 totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience into the movement's sense 
 of progression of experiences, but I began to reread and find new sources in 
 other Eastern enlightenment traditions that seem to explain this experience 
 much better. 
 
 I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be buried in 
 off-hand comments he has made. It is not directly spoken of, and so the focus 
 on experiencing that one's conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, 
 that one completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience, is 
 diluted, and the attention is distracted to other pursuits, like balancing 
 doshas and whatnot, and rectifying jyotish charts. This is all unnecessary 
 unless it is the only way to keep someone meditating, which I do not believe 
 is actually necessary because everyone is exactly what they are, every aspect 
 of enlightenment is present all the time, and we are just distracted.
 
 Talking about the goal that occurs when meditation matures is really helpful. 
 Maharishi started out teaching people that had no clue as to what spiritual 
 knowledge consisted of. There are many more people today who now have a clue, 
 but the bulk of the material in the TMO, at least what we hear, is aimed at 
 the beginners, and it pictures enlightenment in much rosier terms than it 
 really is. He tended to leave out the hard parts, to make it attractive to 
 busy people.
 
 I think being intensely curious and probing one's own ideas and those of 
 others helps a lot to kept from getting locked into a conceptual system. 
 Conceptualisation is a tool to get through life. We grow up with it. It is 
 what makes us forget who and what we are. I do not know what the best 
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Buck
Well first off, Non-meditation.  It's one Big sin against nature.
Guru Dev was right, To get a human body is a rare thing -make full use of it.  
...
Every second in human life is very valuable.  If you don't value this, then you 
will have nothing in hand and you will weep in the end.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote:

 ...
 How ya comin' on the list of Sins?
 .
  
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
 
  
  Non-meditation
  
  It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what 
  it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We 
  are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and 
  are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have 
  made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same 
  attitude. 
  
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
  may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
  technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
  conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
  about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. 
  
  The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
  to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
  your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
  Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
  world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
  for meditation even in our homes. If you
  are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
  developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
  persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
  cities throughout the world.
  
  
   In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
  negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
  Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. 
  
  -Buck in FF
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-14 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:
 
 On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote:
 
 Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the 
 term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'.
 
 In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. 

This is how I interpreted it. If that seems like too broad a brush to paint the 
image, it is a latitude I adopted. Remember Buck started this discussion, but I 
think you and I each took the meaning differently.

In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where 
samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary.

In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it eventually dissolves 
into other states. Meditation is still required. In my own view of this, 
meditation of the TM kind eventually becomes more like Zazen because the 
so-called transcending process eventually has no place to transcend to. 
Transcendence, if you want to call it that, has an inner value and an outer 
value. Meditation starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have 
to incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the outer 
values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care of, but CC is a 
divided state because the experience of self is divided from the world and the 
individual mind and body, but it is a springboard from which transcending in 
the opposite direction into the world is begun. I recall hearing someone who 
said they heard Zen master once who said it was like being under water. Maybe 
like looking up at the world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is 
still a partial experience of life.

 In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of 
 dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also 
 refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 
 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' 

Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and perhaps are 
valuable for you. For me there are only stages of misconceptions and 
misunderstandings about life falling away. However if you can explain the terms 
in ordinary language to me, maybe I would learn something, but the words alone 
is for the time being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be 
interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up front for the 
discussion. It could mean never having meditating at all, having stopped 
meditation, or it could mean meditation has done its job and is no longer 
necessary; it could be given other esoteric designations.

 This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not 
 a conventional object. 

The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the totality of 
experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can only be brahman, meaning 
brahman experiences brahman, it does not refer to individual perception but the 
context of perception. This is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still 
sees objects, and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all 
basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion with the 
whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to dissolve. There are 
all kinds of experiences one can have, but they all have something in common, 
and it is the experience of that singular commonality that brings fulfillment. 
Then all these terms used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice 
basically become mute.

 Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no 
 thoughts, either is perfectly fine.

Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a thought to 
complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill temper in life.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-13 Thread John
Buck,

The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators.  Yet in material terms, they 
appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia.  They've bought 
about one trillion dollars in US government bonds.  Are you saying they are 
delusional?  

JR

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 Non-meditation
 
 It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what it 
 is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are 
 open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are 
 generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made 
 careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. 
 
 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
 may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
 technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
 conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
 about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. 
 
 The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to 
 a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your 
 children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is 
 also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we 
 invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in 
 our homes. If you
 are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
 developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
 persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
 cities throughout the world.
 
 
  In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
 negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
 Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. 
 
 -Buck in FF





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-13 Thread Yifu
There aren't enough active meditators on the planet to make any such 
conclusions via cause and effect. There's no evidence for the ME.
...
How ya comin' on the list of Sins?
.
What if somebody ordered some Chinese food at the Olive Garden? Is that a sin 
and would the punishment be 10 slashes with a wet noodle?
..
What if you're a Civil War Re-enactor and you come to the battle on the Union 
side wearing gray? Is that sin and what's the punishment?
 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 Non-meditation
 
 It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what it 
 is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are 
 open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are 
 generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made 
 careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. 
 
 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
 may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
 technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
 conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
 about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. 
 
 The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to 
 a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your 
 children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is 
 also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we 
 invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in 
 our homes. If you
 are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
 developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
 persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
 cities throughout the world.
 
 
  In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
 negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
 Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. 
 
 -Buck in FF





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-13 Thread azgrey


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 Non-meditation
 
 It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what it 
 is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are 
 open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are 
 generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made 
 careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. 
 
 However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
 may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
 technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
 conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
 about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. 
 
 The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to 
 a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your 
 children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is 
 also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we 
 invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in 
 our homes. If you
 are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
 developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
 persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
 cities throughout the world.
 
 
  In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
 negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
 Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. 
 
 -Buck in FF


Buck, have you decided what crops to lay-in this spring?

I hear dental floss futures are trending higher.

Your cute lil pygmy pony would look mighty nice runnin'
thru a field of dental floss bushes.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-13 Thread azgrey


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
 
  
  Non-meditation
  
  It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what 
  it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We 
  are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and 
  are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have 
  made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same 
  attitude. 
  
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
  may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
  technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
  conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
  about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. 
  
  The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
  to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
  your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
  Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
  world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
  for meditation even in our homes. If you
  are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
  developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
  persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
  cities throughout the world.
  
  
   In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
  negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
  Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. 
  
  -Buck in FF
 
 
 Buck, have you decided what crops to lay-in this spring?
 
 I hear dental floss futures are trending higher.
 
 Your cute lil pygmy pony would look mighty nice runnin'
 thru a field of dental floss bushes.



Drop the sheep Buck.

You're too good for that.

AzGrey--a conservative meditator. 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation

2012-02-13 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote:

 On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote:
  Non-meditation
 
  It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what 
  it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We 
  are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and 
  are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have 
  made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same 
  attitude.
 
  However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that 
  may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as 
  technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research 
  conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking
  about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion.
 
  The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established 
  to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for 
  your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. 
  Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed 
  world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives 
  for meditation even in our homes. If you
  are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other 
  developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the 
  persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in 
  cities throughout the world.
 
 
In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of 
  negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source.
  Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation.
 
  -Buck in FF
 
 Who are the non-meditators, Buck?

The majority here, there and everywhere. :-)