[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the mechanical path both for the teachers and their students. Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL. What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now. To be 'Devoted to Maharishi' is to be devoted to attaining 'Brahman Consciousness'...through the techniques and through intellectual knowlege which Maharishi outlined toward the end of his life, in detailing the specifics of Brhaman Consciousness... It still comes down to putting in time that it takes to 'burn up' the 'latent tendencies' 'Samsaras' and release everything that interferes with the 'Complete Realization of the Soul'... Brahman Consciousness is basically what was embodied by 'Guru Dev' , and as he taught as basically 'Soul Realization'... How your individual soul becomes self aware and how it relates to the 'Soul of all Things'...all manifest reality... The basic technique of TM to teach transcendence and then the basic technique of the Sidhis to become familiar with the finest impulse of the Sutra... So, just becoming familiar with transcenence and the finest level of feeling over and over again, so it becomes habituated... Until finally, the 'Self-Referral' quality of the process begins to disolve into a kind of wholenss of awarness, in that at the finest level there is a merging of Being with both the inner awarness of Self, and the outer awareness of relativity, and the gap in between... It is finer than fine, this level of Brahman, but as Maharishi says, it can be stabilized with continued practice of maintaining that level of 'Wholeness of Beingness' which is a direct experience of many at this time, and only needs to be stabilized with continued practice in that way of 'Devotion' to 'That'...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the mechanical path both for the teachers and their students. Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL. What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now. To be 'Devoted to Maharishi' is to be devoted to attaining 'Brahman Consciousness'...through the techniques and through intellectual knowlege which Maharishi outlined toward the end of his life, in detailing the specifics of Brhaman Consciousness... It still comes down to putting in time that it takes to 'burn up' the 'latent tendencies' 'Samsaras' and release everything that interferes with the 'Complete Realization of the Soul'... Brahman Consciousness is basically what was embodied by 'Guru Dev' , and as he taught as basically 'Soul Realization'... How your individual soul becomes self aware and how it relates to the 'Soul of all Things'...all manifest reality... The basic technique of TM to teach transcendence and then the basic technique of the Sidhis to become familiar with the finest impulse of the Sutra... So, just becoming familiar with transcenence and the finest level of feeling over and over again, so it becomes habituated... Until finally, the 'Self-Referral' quality of the process begins to disolve into a kind of wholenss of awarness, in that at the finest level there is a merging of Being with both the inner awarness of Self, and the outer awareness of relativity, and the gap in between... It is finer than fine, this level of Brahman, but as Maharishi says, it can be stabilized with continued practice of maintaining that level of 'Wholeness of Beingness' which is a direct experience of many at this time, and only needs to be stabilized with continued practice in that way of 'Devotion' to 'That'... Further, the 'Sidhi Techniques' themselves are to be transended, in that the 'Powers' are to be viewed with 'Detatchment'... This is clearly stated in the Yoga Sutras. The Sidhi Techniques are primarily to be used to become aquanted the the finest level of feeling, and then transending that finest level to Beingness. Now, if the powers come, they will come spontaneously if they are needed... The 'Flying Sutra' can also be used to 'Travel through Space' on the level of consciousness, at the 'Speed of Thought'...which opens the way for the first value of 'Brahman Consciousess' in that when one is identified with 'Wholeness' then one can be 'Anywhere at Anytime'... If Being is the basis of 'All that there Is' therefore, one can 'travel through space' and also through 'time' perhaps? Nonetheless Patanjali clearly states in the Yoga sutras, that the powers are to be 'let go of'... Because clearly the goal is not 'Any specific power', but rather the attainment of the 'Highest Level of Consciousness' the attainment of 'Brahman Consciousness'...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
According to MMY, meditation is based on thinking. Meditation means simply 'to think things over'. If so, then everyone meditates. emptybill: You must have never done TM. Let's review: If I think, I meditate; everyone thinks; so, then everyone meditates. Meditation is based on thinking. - MMY This is an idiots definition. Definition: meditation noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is on the connexion between A and B? I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal, or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can say about A is that there was less transparency than there is now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize it for myself. Good, that is all I was asking. I have tended to do the same thing, and not think about a goal other than as a blank that might be filled in. Earlier on I think I had more conceptually concrete ideas but they dissipated. Some people have really clear ideas about what they expect. If they trip over into an awakening, they will not be disappointed in the experience, but they will probably find their ideas are very wide of the mark. Until then, there is usually the experience of gradual change in experience unless the person is striving really hard for the imagined goal they have in which case they may finally just collapse from the effort and then have a grand experience of some kind of release, though it may not be nirvana. Your answer had a fine simplicity to it, and no jargon other than what I had thrown at you. Thank you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is on the connexion between A and B? I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal, or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can say about A is that there was less transparency than there is now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize it for myself. Good, that is all I was asking. I have tended to do the same thing, and not think about a goal other than as a blank that might be filled in. Earlier on I think I had more conceptually concrete ideas but they dissipated. Some people have really clear ideas about what they expect. If they trip over into an awakening, they will not be disappointed in the experience, but they will probably find their ideas are very wide of the mark. Until then, there is usually the experience of gradual change in experience unless the person is striving really hard for the imagined goal they have in which case they may finally just collapse from the effort and then have a grand experience of some kind of release, though it may not be nirvana. Your answer had a fine simplicity to it, and no jargon other than what I had thrown at you. Thank you. Judy's answer has simplicity because TM as well as the path is simple natural and innocent. Rest and activity and water the root to enjoy the fruit, that's it. There's nothing fancy about it. Your line of questioning was more complex than this context, so it took a while to unravel what you wanted to understand about Judy's path. Maharishi was all about innocent practice. He didn't want us to get caught up in flashy experiences and miss capturing the fort (his analogy) because we're too busy exploring gold and diamond mines. The fort includes all the gold and diamond mines within it territory. I'm just an old-time TM teacher still in love with Maharishi and still keeping it simple with his old-time expressions of profound knowledge.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: Maharishi was all about innocent practice. He didn't want us to get caught up in flashy experiences and miss capturing the fort (his analogy) because we're too busy exploring gold and diamond mines. The fort includes all the gold and diamond mines within it territory. I'm just an old-time TM teacher still in love with Maharishi and still keeping it simple with his old-time expressions of profound knowledge. Nice. That's why I never participate in discussions here about the TM technique or the mantras. The Buddhists, particularily the Vaj character wants these discussions badly to try to confuse people.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear. Cheers.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On Feb 19, 2012, at 3:12 PM, azgrey wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear. Cheers. We're prayin' for ya Judy!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 19, 2012, at 3:12 PM, azgrey wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. Here's to hoping you succeed and completely disappear. Cheers. We're prayin' for ya Judy! If TOREM, Inc. opened a PayPal account dedicated to Yagya donations we could get this accomplished.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
The millions are awake enough for physical labor; but only one in a million is awake enough for effective intellectual exertion, only one in a hundred millions to a poetic or divine life. To be awake is to be alive. I have never yet met a man who was quite awake. How could I have looked him in the face? We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake, not by mechanical aids, but by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us in our soundest sleep. I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by a conscious endeavor. -Buck Seriously, we all need to do something about the none-meditator. It is time to shun none-meditation and the person without meditation for not pulling their own weight. For spiritual slacking. It's not just lost opportunity, not meditating. It's a crime against everyone to not be a meditator. People just should come to meditation. In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm Every day. The world should be a better place with more meditators. All people should have more resolve to meditate if only because the science says so. We would all be better off. The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
You must have never done TM. This is an idiots definition. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: Or, I guess it all depends on how you can define 'meditation'. According to MMY, meditation is based on thinking. Meditation means simply 'to think things over'. If so, then everyone meditates.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now. My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path is for the ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is from here to here. He says that in SBAL too, in a footnote, but then he uses the term over and over in the section Paths to God- Realization. I figure as long as I'm still in ignorance, I get to use it! Can't figure out what the heck Xeno is asking me, though, especially when he goes on to say he isn't going to argue about it--what's to argue?--or cite anything in the past from FFL--like what?? And he knows what my path is anyway. So why is he even asking? It's a blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river and a brunette on the other. The brunette yells across the river to the blonde, How do you get to the other side? The blonde replies. You're already there. Heh.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On 02/16/2012 08:00 PM, Buck wrote: The world could be a better place. Well, okay then Buck, what's your vision of a better place?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? Boy, I'm sorry, but I don't know what that question even means. I do TM and the TM-Sidhis, then I go about my business. You'll have to be more specific if you want me to say anything beyond that. Any kind of activity that has a goal has a concept like a path in it. Travel from A to B. When someone starts something like ATM, there usually is a reason for it, feeling better, or what not. The idea is there is a metaphorical line, a path, from A, where you are now, and B, where you expect to end up. Unless I am incredibly stupid, most people I have know who have started some kind of meditation had some kind of goal in mind. As they found out more about what they were doing, maybe the goal changed, but it was still a goal. Therefore most of us envision a goal, even though, strictly speaking, the goal ends up exactly what you are at any given moment. That is there really is no path, but before that experience occurs, it is usually impossible to not think of at least something about where one is headed. And that is the 'path', and there are usually some attributes attached to the idea, such as bhakti, or inquiry, or some kind of performances, pilgrimages, and those characteristics define some distinctive qualities about the 'path'. Now if you just meditate and do the sidhis, and then think nothing of what meditation is about ever, then this would be rather unusual and difficult to describe as a 'path'. Some people I have met do not seem interested in unity; rather they seem more interested in god consciousness. They want some kind of experience of god. So perhaps that could be called some sort of religious path, maybe bhakti. Perhaps what I am asking is, if you considered the mental aspects of how you think about meditation etc., and the physical aspects, and the emotional aspects, which one of those aspects seems to predominate. That might help define the characteristics of the 'path' you are on. Bhakti is not an intellectual path. For me, for example, I think the mental aspect predominates, and emotional and physical aspects are less and about equal with each other. The emotional aspects of my 'path' are not devotional toward religious kinds of icons or persons. If I held a small salamander in my hand, it would probably generate more emotional interest for me than any kind of religiously inspired object. Robin for example, seems religiously motivated, he seemed to express a high degree of devotion, with a lot of conflict as how to direct that emotion. If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is on the connexion between A and B? While, as rauncydog says below the 'path' is really from A to A, but while one can say that intellectually, one actually does not appreciate it until awakening, which means an experience of unity. Until then, what we have in our heads always has at least some aspect of travel from A to B in it, some expectation that something else significant is going to happen. [Post 304493] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now. My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path is for the ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is from here to here. He says that in SBAL too, in a footnote, but then he uses the term over and over in the section Paths to God- Realization. I figure as long as I'm still in ignorance, I get to use it! Can't figure out what the heck Xeno is asking me, though, especially when he goes on to say he isn't going to argue about it--what's to argue?--or cite anything in the past from FFL--like what?? And he knows what my path is anyway. So why is he even asking? I would not presume to know your 'path', you have certain characteristics which would lead me to conclude that mental activity predominates in you, but you are a disembodied presence on the forum just like others, so for example, judging your emotional states cannot be gleaned from seeing expressions etc. And when I have attempted to characterise such states in you, you often disagree, so it is not reliable. I would expect you would know these things much more intimately than I could ever guess at. It's a blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river and a brunette on the other. The
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip If you are meditating and think that meditation will take you from A to B, what is A like, and what is B like, and what is on the connexion between A and B? I think the most I can say at this point is that my path is one of gradually increasing transparency. That's what seems to be taking place, at any rate. I've used the term transparency to describe it here before. It's much too concrete, but it's the closest I can come. I have no idea what B is like; I don't know if there *is* a B in the sense of an end-point or goal, or if there is, whether I'll ever reach it. And the most I can say about A is that there was less transparency than there is now. As I say, I just do my program and go about my business and figure whatever's happening is what's supposed to be happening. I don't worry about it or try to conceptualize it for myself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Seriously, we all need to do something about the none-meditator. It is time to shun none-meditation and the person without meditation for not pulling their own weight. For spiritual slacking. It's not just lost opportunity, not meditating. It's a crime against everyone to not be a meditator. People just should come to meditation. In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm Every day. The world should be a better place with more meditators. All people should have more resolve to meditate if only because the science says so. We would all be better off. The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! Buck, are you sure what you are saying?: 'I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators.' By definition, the unified field is inclusive of everything, and here you are talking about being against something. If you want to promote enlightenment, you might think of accepting the way the world is first, and then finding a way to interest whom you are calling an enemy in enlightenment. If they do not respond, that is still the unified field, so no loss. Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. One of the people Pearson mentions in his interview is Alfred, Lord Tennyson. The following link is a video of an animated photograph of Tennyson reading his famous poem about a blundered military campaign, the Charge of the Light Brigade. The audio is from Tennyson reading his work into an Edison cylinder phonograph (which could record), in the year 1890. http://youtu.be/MkqUq26z1CE In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first time you've encountered it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: People just should come to meditation. The world should be a better place with more meditators. All people should have more resolve to meditate if only because the science says so. We would all be better off. A few ads from the grand old days of medicine, all touting trademarked cures for what ails ya, all sold because the science says so. [Lloyd Cocaine Toothache Drops] [Bayer Heroin] [Pantopon Roche Injectable Opium]
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Buck, your message seems to be more and more a call for intolerance. Appeals using militaristic metaphors carry (to me, at least) subliminal suggestions of violence. You decry how long time meditators are treated by TMO officials but call for shunning those whom you believe don't believe and act as you feel they should. Where is the logic in all this? Where is the friendliness and compassion? *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Seriously, we all need to do something about the none-meditator. It is time to shun none-meditation and the person without meditation for not pulling their own weight. For spiritual slacking. It's not just lost opportunity, not meditating. It's a crime against everyone to not be a meditator. People just should come to meditation. In Fairfield at 7:30am and 5:00pm Every day. The world should be a better place with more meditators. All people should have more resolve to meditate if only because the science says so. We would all be better off. The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first time you've encountered it? No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into the fold. Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint that he is comparing them to his own. And I have met Craig Pearson, though I am not sure he would remember me. He seems like a nice guy, I have nothing against him. I think this theme was more prevalent when the movement was younger. And there was the fun of listening to Charlie Lutes, who was pushed to the fringe eventually. Someone told me he said sometime in the mid seventies, 'I was the World Governor of the Spiritual Regeneration Movement, then its President, now I'm the Janitor!' This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what they taught is pushed way into the background. In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days, talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment. The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians. You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first time you've encountered it? No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into the fold. I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme, frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment is a natural, normal development in human beings, after all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there was no clear understanding of what was involved and no simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it, according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM. Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint that he is comparing them to his own. I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it would have been highly inappropriate in that interview for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted. snip This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what they taught is pushed way into the background. Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side. In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days, talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment. The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians. You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this? I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't really have any firsthand observations. From what I've read of what many TM teachers from the early days have said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per se would have been entirely superfluous. Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get very far, nor was there much in the way of group support for them. Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with teachers, this devotional context began to diminish. Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to actually teach devotion to the master. As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without having a master. In any case, I'd be very surprised to learn that MMY had ever suggested bhakti as an *alternative* to TM's mechanical path. And he did insist in SBAL and his Gita commentary that genuine devotion was impossible until CC, when it would begin to develop by itself just in the course of living in the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: You need to get out more Turqo, not just dream about the good old days :-) A few ads from the grand old days of medicine, all touting trademarked cures for what ails ya, all sold because the science says so. [Lloyd Cocaine Toothache Drops] [Bayer Heroin] [Pantopon Roche Injectable Opium]
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Response to Judy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first time you've encountered it? No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into the fold. I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme, frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment is a natural, normal development in human beings, after all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there was no clear understanding of what was involved and no simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it, according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM. Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint that he is comparing them to his own. I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it would have been highly inappropriate in that interview for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted. I think you are right here. What I said was not noteworthy. snip This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what they taught is pushed way into the background. Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side. In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days, talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment. The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians. You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this? I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't really have any firsthand observations. From what I've read of what many TM teachers from the early days have said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per se would have been entirely superfluous. Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get very far, nor was there much in the way of group support for them. Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with teachers, this devotional context began to diminish. Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to actually teach devotion to the master. I think this is probably an accurate observation. I do know a lot of people drifted away from the movement when the 'personal touch' became more and more distant. They would drift to teachers surrounded by smaller groups where personal access was still possible. If I knew more about psychology, perhaps notes on this behaviour might have some special significance to this argument. As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's some overlap, I suppose, when the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: Response to Judy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without having a master. I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: Response to Judy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip Here is an article on enlightenment by vice-president of MUM Craig Pearson: http://issue5.tmmagazine.org/enlightenment-throughout-history.html At least this shows that despite the heavy-handed promotion of TM, some in the movement do recognise that the phenomenal experience associated with meditation is universal. Some in the movement? Xeno, this has been a movement theme since I learned TM in 1975. Is this the first time you've encountered it? No, it just does not seem so much in evidence these days within the hallowed halls of the TMO, that is all, though I would not say it is absent. It has always been on my mind. It used to be rather prevalent in publications from around 1975. This particular instance occurs in an online mag that seems to be oriented to new meditators who are not familiar with the restrictions and pressures that come with getting deeper into the fold. I'd be surprised if it hadn't been a continuous theme, frankly. TM is based on the premise that enlightenment is a natural, normal development in human beings, after all. The only reason it's been rare has been that there was no clear understanding of what was involved and no simple, tried-and-true methodology to facilitate it, according to MMY. Point being that enlightenment isn't some exotic state peculiar to those who practice TM. Note that Pearson seems to be comparing these experiences to what Maharishi has said, but not much of a hint that he is comparing them to his own. I'm not sure that's noteworthy, Xeno. Seems to me it would have been highly inappropriate in that interview for him to tout his own experiences, even if they were exalted. Or *especially* if they were exalted. I think you are right here. What I said was not noteworthy. snip This is something that interests me, and perhaps you have had wider reading on it: great spiritual movements in their infancy are all about Being, but as they mature there seems to be a shift onto what the teacher says about Being, there is a subtle shift of focus away from the goal to what the master said, or reportedly said about the goal. That is a shift from unboundedness to a focus on an icon of the teacher, and eventually sometimes, just worship of the teacher, and what they taught is pushed way into the background. Sure, it's often characterized as a transition from the esoteric to the exoteric. The major religions all have their esoteric remnants, as it were, which often come to be regarded with some suspicion by the exoteric side. In my experience around the movement, there has been a definite subtle group pressure to conform to the devotional model of the spiritual path, even though MMY, at least in the early days, talks about others, such as the mechanical path to enlightenment. The devotional model seems to me a way to override pesky questions that intellectual inquiry would likely dredge up, by substituting emotion for intellect. For example, in Christianity Martin Luther said reason should be destroyed in all Christians. You have a strong intellect, do you have any thoughts on this? I was never a teacher or a movement person, so I don't really have any firsthand observations. From what I've read of what many TM teachers from the early days have said, though, devotion to MMY was so powerful and so prevalent just naturally that a devotional model per se would have been entirely superfluous. Teachers tended to fall helplessly in love with MMY and accept whatever he said as if it were literally Gospel Truth. Obviously there were exceptions, but MMY had a way of deflecting objections so that they didn't get very far, nor was there much in the way of group support for them. Apparently once the movement began to expand explosively in the Merv Wave days and later, and MMY took on more of a CEO-type role, having less personal contact with teachers, this devotional context began to diminish. Perhaps that's when it began to become necessary to actually teach devotion to the master. I think this is probably an accurate observation. I do know a lot of people drifted away from the movement when the 'personal touch' became more and more distant. They would drift to teachers surrounded by smaller groups where personal access was still possible. If I knew more about psychology, perhaps notes on this behaviour might have some special significance to this argument. As I go back and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: Response to Judy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip As I go back and reread your post, though, I'm a little confused as to whether by devotion you mean devotion to MMY or a devotional path as in bhakti yoga. There's some overlap, I suppose, when the master is seen to be a manifestation of the Divine so that in worshipping him or her one is worshipping God, but one can certainly practice bhakti yoga in the sense of worshipping a personal form of God as a path to enlightenment without having a master. I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. He spoke of TM as a mechanical means to achieve enlightenment, sans devotion apparently. That path is probably furtherest from devotion, at least as I think about it. Since bhakti is not really my thing, I probably do not distinguish much between flavours of devotion as to what, etc.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the mechanical path both for the teachers and their students.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the mechanical path both for the teachers and their students. Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL. What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? Boy, I'm sorry, but I don't know what that question even means. I do TM and the TM-Sidhis, then I go about my business. You'll have to be more specific if you want me to say anything beyond that.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I used the term 'devotional path' in a general way; being devoted to communism could have the same emotional weight as a spiritual path. As usual I am using terms in a way that is more vague than you tend to prefer. It's not so much a matter of my preference. If all you want is vague comments, that's fine. But the three situations-- bhakti as a path, devotion to the master as a path, and devotion to the master as a means of implementing the mechanical path--are very different in terms of why and how they develop in a spiritual organization, so if you want meaningful comments they need to be differentiated. With regard to the mechanical path, I do not recall MMY talking about it being related to devotion. Right. But TM teachers' devotion to MMY kept them on the program, facilitated their learning to teach TM as he wanted it taught, and strengthened their commitment to teach as many as possible, thus helping implement the mechanical path both for the teachers and their students. Sure, I will not argue with that. It's all the same path, ends in the same place, a nothingness that is the wholeness of everything together, approached from different angles per the characteristics of the seeker. All roads lead to Rome. Except not all roads really end up in Rome. Some end here, at FFL. What do you think or feel the characteristics of your path are? I am just curious, I do not intend to argue about it, or bring in details of anything in the past here on FFL. You have been meditating a long time, so you should have a decent idea by now. My two cents: I remember Maharishi saying the concept of a path is for the ignorant. The full range of creative intelligence is from here to here. It's a blonde joke. There's a blonde on one side of a river and a brunette on the other. The brunette yells across the river to the blonde, How do you get to the other side? The blonde replies. You're already there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or something? authfriend: I'm sorry, Buck, I miswrote. The example you referred to was one of *secular*, not spiritual, intransigence. And you seemed to be speaking of something very specific that you'd just encountered recently, so I was intrigued. Guess Buck is still busy meditating. Buck didn't define 'meditation', so we don't even know what he is talking about. It has already been established that meditation means to 'think things over', but does Buck practice TM or does he practice a secular type of meditation? Meditation has been defined as 'a conscious mental process that induces a set of integrated physiological changes termed the relaxation response'. Work Cited: 'Meditation: An Introduction' Uses of Meditation for Health in the United States. NCCAM (National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence... Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or something? Buck: Dear Authfriend, I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators here who pollute the pages of FFL with their non-meditaton rhetoric. You know what I mean an who they are. It was the usual ones... Fer chrissaskes, Buck, why didn't you pipe up when they posted that rumor about MMY murdering his master, SBS? It looks to me like a lot of informants here can't even defend their own guru, much less dialog about deep meditation! Where I come from, silence usually indicates agreement. 294401 294401 , 264027 264027 , etc, etc, etc
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental... meditation means, 'beyond thought'. Vaj: In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates... It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse. You've got to define first what meditation is, before you can define non-meditation. You've been using circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue) The historical Buddha himself was said to have achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana, both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment. The former consists of practices aimed at developing the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly; the latter includes practices aimed at developing insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of reality. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to measure'. From the root med are also derived the English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin 'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'. Work cited: 'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)' by Georg Feuerstein Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006 ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon... Vaj: Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. According to Alexandra David-Neel, they used to do this with a human thigh-trumpet. http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g In the U.S. we have other sounds to deal with, like amplified sirens on ambulances. One of the reasons that TM studies are more relevant is because unlike most meditation techniques, TM doesn't rely on 'focused concentration' or attention. There is a single-object, the bija mantra, but it is not an object of concentration and it does not get focused attention. The bija is experienced just like any other thought. The problem with 'deity' visualizations is that these types of concentrative meditation tend to keep one on the ordinary conscious thinking level - transcending is much slower in deity worship, if at all, than with TM. A lot of Tibetan meditation is based on mood-making, obviously. It's much easier to meditate with just an abstract bija, used just like a non-semantic mnemonic device. A person has to go through years of training in Tibet in order to learn how to visualize tantric dieties! It's not at all practical for ordinary people. Excerpts: One of the methods chosen, one-pointednessa fully focused concentration on a single object of attention may be the most basic and universal of all practices, found in one form or another in every spiritual tradition that employs meditation. The final meditation technique, visualization, entailed constructing in the mind's eye an image of the elaborately intricate details of a Tibetan Buddhist deity. Shambhala Sun: http://tinyurl.com/nnx2vs http://tinyurl.com/nnx2vs 'Magic and Mystery in Tibet' BY Alexandra David-Neel Penguin, 1971 http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g http://tinyurl.com/7ed4u8g
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental... meditation means, 'beyond thought'. Vaj: In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates... It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse. You've got to define first what meditation is, before you can define non-meditation. You've been using circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue) The historical Buddha himself was said to have achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana, both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment. The former consists of practices aimed at developing the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly; the latter includes practices aimed at developing insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of reality. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to measure'. From the root med are also derived the English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin 'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'. Work cited: 'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)' by Georg Feuerstein Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006 ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732 Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Meditation as a specific kind of practice does not seem to naturally to occur to almost everybody, it is a behaviour learned from a very few that discovered these processes. So blaming the non meditators for not doing what oneself is doing seems kind of pointless. Interesting that you brought up Parmenides. My given name is a derivative of the name of the man who is thought to be Parmenides teacher, something I only discovered by following the link to in the wikipedia article to one about Xenophanes. I never knew that. I always rather liked Parmenides.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers. 'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker though...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On 02/16/2012 10:03 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williamsrichard@... wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental... meditation means, 'beyond thought'. Vaj: In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates... It looks like somebody put the cart before the horse. You've got to define first what meditation is, before you can define non-meditation. You've been using circular logic (regressus ad infinitum). Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides_(dialogue) The historical Buddha himself was said to have achieved enlightenment while meditating under a banyan tree. Most forms of Buddhism distinguish between two classes of meditation practices: shamatha and vipassana, both of which are necessary for attaining enlightenment. The former consists of practices aimed at developing the ability to focus the attention single-pointedly; the latter includes practices aimed at developing insight and wisdom through seeing the true nature of reality. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. According to Feuerstein, the word meditation originally comes from the Indo-European root 'med' -, meaning 'to measure'. From the root med are also derived the English words mete, medicine, modest, and moderate. It entered English as 'meditation' through the Latin 'meditatio', which originally indicated every type of physical or intellectual exercise, then later evolved into the more specific meaning 'contemplation'. Work cited: 'Yoga and Meditation (Dhyana)' by Georg Feuerstein Moksha Journal, Issue 1. 2006 ISSN 1051-127X, OCLC 21878732 Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Meditation as a specific kind of practice does not seem to naturally to occur to almost everybody, it is a behaviour learned from a very few that discovered these processes. So blaming the non meditators for not doing what oneself is doing seems kind of pointless. Interesting that you brought up Parmenides. My given name is a derivative of the name of the man who is thought to be Parmenides teacher, something I only discovered by following the link to in the wikipedia article to one about Xenophanes. I never knew that. I always rather liked Parmenides. The reason that I asked Buck what he meant by non-meditator was to be sure he wasn't referring to only to people who don't practice TM. That, of course, would be a very narrow definition. However, I think Buck has mentioned he has seen saints so may also have tried other meditation. TM is a meditation for what yogis refer to as meditation for the general public. Advanced techniques given by most gurus usually include an initiation into a guru or key mantra. That mantra is very powerful and something you would not give to the general public but to initiates you feel can handle such a meditation. That said, I feel most here could handle it. One Indian astrologer who did a reading for me saw that I had become a TM teacher and thought that was good. When I told him I had doubts about the technique he said doesn't matter, once initiated you can use any mantra you want. That is somewhat true and why we should discount any former TM'er who has left the movement and taught meditation to other people successfully without using a puja and doesn't feel it is needed. We just don't know how much their prior practice has allowed them to charge any mantra without doing any puja to charge up. Most gurus would determine when you are charged enough to teach meditation and then allow you to do so and there is no need to perform a puja. I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers. 'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker though... Exactly too. Absolutely, it is about field effect of different classes. Meditator, quitter, non. The Science is prescient and the public policy implication is evidently clear. I shoud urge you all to meditation and to support the important work of the Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy. http://istpp.org/ It is time for real meditators to rally, not run away. In the Field, -Buck, Ph 7 p.s., Of course the problem with non meditation is that it is such a poor field with bad effect. If you'd could see how bad it is then you'd know. For everyone's benefit this all needs to be changed for the better. With more effective meditation. Meditators to the front!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
That website will rot your brain, for sure. Hagelin has no demonstrable Sidhis. He's promoting demon-infected programs. ... Here's a better website: http://www.optoutprescreen.com --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Those of us who responded to the initial post by Buck were just riffing off of it, each of us interpreting 'non meditation' as we saw fit. I think Buck may have meant 'non meditation' to refer to those who do not meditate, or those that did and stopped, and possibly those who meditate but do not practice TM. It seemed to me he was referring to non meditation as a kind of social disease that by virtue of those who do not meditate those who do are somehow infected by a less than stellar existence by virtue of their influence. Exactly. Maybe he should just start calling them outward strokers. 'Amnesty for the outward strokers' is too long for a bumper sticker though... Exactly too. Absolutely, it is about field effect of different classes. Meditator, quitter, non. The Science is prescient and the public policy implication is evidently clear. I shoud urge you all to meditation and to support the important work of the Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy. http://istpp.org/ It is time for real meditators to rally, not run away. In the Field, -Buck, Ph 7 p.s., Of course the problem with non meditation is that it is such a poor field with bad effect. If you'd could see how bad it is then you'd know. For everyone's benefit this all needs to be changed for the better. With more effective meditation. Meditators to the front!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) However, I highly suspect that Maharishi knew his product was meditation for the general public and pleased as any teacher would be that his former students were interested in learning more and beyond the scope of the TM movement. Similarly when I taught beginning keyboards I was pleased when I had a student or two who was ready to move on to a more serious classical teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
2-nd Dragoon Regiment General: (by Mikael Aguirre)... http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/5/40331.jpg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: The world could be a better place. Look, the need is great for transcending meditators now to do their practice. For disciplined transcending meditators within the power and light of the Unified Field in their practice. Gather friends who are meditators. A group of 100 makes a company. Ten companies makes a regiment. Rajas hoot in hell, you should be a regimental Colonel. Recruit a regiment of practicing transcending meditators and you could have a colonelcy and also your regiment named after you! Colonel Bhairitu's regiment from the Golden State! We need some action here getting people to come meditate out of this very group. I'm desperately low on posts here this week now. Bhairitu, I'm going to leave the raising of 10 West Coast regiments of meditators to you . I've got other fronts to attend to in this campaign against nonmeditators. I'm in the saddle on this like ol' Sheridan in the Valley. Bhairitu, the Unified Field's speed to you! Ride! In the service of the Unified Field, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/16/2012 12:25 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I have also heard that Maharishi when told of teachers who had moved on to more advanced paths commented that he thought that was good. I also heard that in the Great Pyramid in Egypt Sidhas are living who were initiated 5000 years ago by Vyasa :-) And some people believe in major super men who will save the world. ;-) Who are they ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting to me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away. *Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack for being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically. When discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't just talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such that you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about, *as* he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about more occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything* he had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was now completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes ago was true is now either true any more, or relevant. I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you put it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the pursuit of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that you know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the world around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more accurate view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it. That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic rendering of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only ONE state is like believing that white is the only color in the world. I'm much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of mind, in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking state state of attention, each of them as different from one another as MMY's simplistic waking state is from Unity. That said, I disagree strongly with his statement, Unity is real, diversity is conceptual. It's ALL real. To believe otherwise is still (IMO) to be caught up in a hierarchical view of consciousness, in which some experiences can be said to be higher or better or more real than others. Just more conceptual twaddle IMO. What if everything I knew was wrong is not a challenging question, but a liberating one. IMO the more you think you know about reality and how it all works, the less you know. And the less likely you are ever to experience it as reality. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My early experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related to Buddhist practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep (though at the time I thought they were). The emphasis intellectually however was on direct experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on seeing that a lot of what we consider real is just a conceptual overlay on perception, and that that overlay controls our behaviour. After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done previously, I spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However after many years I found I was forgetting the insights I had previously gained. As the TM movement branched out into all sorts of auxilliary techniques and 'vedas' (e.g. sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting distracted. As a natural sceptic, eventually I scaled down or discarded most of this additional load, just maintaining TM. Instead of reading spiritual stuff I read science fiction, westerns, books by atheists. Then I just sort of stopped, except for meditation. One day, out of the blue, the conceptual framework of my experience simply blew away. Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from a dream. In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper, and I find I am much less attached to conceptual models, though of course I still must use them for practical things. The strange thing is this is the experience that is aimed at with meditation. It actually seems to come after everything seems to stop working pretty much. It is really mysterious, because it is also possible to lose the effect of the experience if a particularly difficult stress starts to release. Eventually it becomes more stable. Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it. It is so simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is easy to get totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Who are the non-meditators, Buck? Well, according to the best of science being done, non-meditators evidently are our communal problem.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Buck wrote: However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. I thought meditation lead to non-meditation. Therefore, non- meditation is the goal of meditation. Om no, no, no. I'm talking about non-meditators. I got to get going on my first meditation this morning. After meditation I'm shoeing horses all day an don't got time for this kind of non-meditation sophistry. Howevr, you could have and they do still do check meditation for free at local Peace Palaces. Have a nice day. Peace, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten�or never knew�what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally�and the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Who are the non-meditators, Buck? Well, according to the best of science being done, non-meditators evidently are our communal problem. This does not seem to be an answer to the question Buck. Who are the non-meditators? And what is the best of science being done? What about the Rajas? They would seem to be meditators, and you seem to think they are a problem. I think you need to more clearly state what you mean.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it eventually dissolves into other states. CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems. It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional. Meditation is still required. Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in perception. In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction into the world is begun. It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior transitional state. I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a partial experience of life. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away. However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me, maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other esoteric designations. This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects, and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they all have something in common, and it is the experience of that singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically become mute. In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill temper in life. No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'... Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses it and only experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in dream state and a gap of any experience during deep sleep. With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to experience subtlety of thought and the transcedence of thought, and the experience of pure being when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts' and one is 'awake inside'...This awake inside, begins to be experienced further during sutra practice as one has the experience of pure being along with diversity... This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most important step in the process of developing 'Unity of Consciousness'...duality begins the process of unity...where you are experiencing the difference between 'Any' manifestation with that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so, As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this finest level of thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of perception of anything, that is contrasted with Pure Being, Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing. At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is a 'Gap' of experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception of thought at that finest level of feeling. Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually hidden becomes seen as associated with space, light, prana, that finest space between manifest and unmanifest Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire creation, experienced within yourself as Brahman. The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand Finale'.. The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm. So, With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest 'Point'. of awareness: the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely and ego becomes undifferentiated in Brahman. Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the pinnicle of experience, you then walk on the highest plateau.. It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest, awareness of the gap.. which can with practice become stablized in awareness, but not many humans have the patience and courage to go that far...wide and deep. Baba
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On Feb 15, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Robert wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non- meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya- samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'... Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses it and only experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in dream state and a gap of any experience during deep sleep. With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to experience subtlety of thought and the transcedence of thought, and the experience of pure being when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts' and one is 'awake inside'...This awake inside, begins to be experienced further during sutra practice as one has the experience of pure being along with diversity... This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most important step in the process of developing 'Unity of Consciousness'...duality begins the process of unity...where you are experiencing the difference between 'Any' manifestation with that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so, As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this finest level of thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of perception of anything, that is contrasted with Pure Being, Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing. At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is a 'Gap' of experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception of thought at that finest level of feeling. Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually hidden becomes seen as associated with space, light, prana, that finest space between manifest and unmanifest Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire creation, experienced within yourself as Brahman. The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand Finale'.. The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm. So, With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest 'Point'. of awareness: the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely and ego becomes undifferentiated in Brahman. Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the pinnicle of experience, you then walk on the highest plateau.. It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest, awareness of the gap.. which can with practice become stablized in awareness, but not many humans have the patience and courage to go that far...wide and deep. Sounds great on paper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it eventually dissolves into other states. CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems. It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional. Meditation is still required. Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in perception. In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction into the world is begun. It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior transitional state. I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a partial experience of life. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away. However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me, maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other esoteric designations. This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects, and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they all have something in common, and it is the experience of that singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically become mute. In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill temper in life. No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. As for all these descriptions of levels of experience. They can sometimes be helpful, but eventually you just have to
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-) Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting to me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away. *Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack for being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically. When discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't just talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such that you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about, *as* he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about more occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything* he had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was now completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes ago was true is now either true any more, or relevant. I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you put it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the pursuit of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that you know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the world around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more accurate view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it. That is rather like what I thought I was saying. That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic rendering of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only ONE state is like believing that white is the only color in the world. I'm much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of mind, in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking state state of attention, each of them as different from one another as MMY's simplistic waking state is from Unity. I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world high school. I was looking for a meal, and came late. There was pizza and ice cream, but I couldn't find a spoon, and finally I found a spoon in a tray of dirty dishes. Then the dream wandered on to something about drilling in sand, and that there were different kinds of drill bits one had to use depending on how deep one wanted to drill. Some time was spent trying to figure out which bit was for what depth, and in the dream, the drill bits did not really resemble real drilling bits, but looked like square boxes of metal with various things sticking out of them. Then I woke up, lying in bed. Ugh. Waking up did not feel particularly better than the dream. Both were experiences. But both these experiences have a thread of commonality in them. You once agreed with a statement I made saying the MMY scenario was basically kind of like a general average of possibilities. Up to a point my experiences conformed to this. It gives a vision of possibilities to people who have no clue about spiritual experiences but at some point it might become a liability. You have to remember people often asked Maharishi all kinds of really stupid questions, and he had to come up with something to satisfy their hunger for what they sought. Maybe Maharishi was a victim of the stupidest group of students in the universe - us! That said, I disagree strongly with his statement, Unity is real, diversity is conceptual. It's ALL real. To believe otherwise is still (IMO) to be caught up in a hierarchical view of consciousness, in which some experiences can be said to be higher or better or more real than others. Just more conceptual twaddle IMO. A statement like Unity is real, diversity is conceptual.' is useful for mentally grasping the import of experience, especially if one has the experience of conceptuality being blown off. In the end though, I think what you say here is right, in time it just no longer comes up. Zen masters sometimes tell their students to just stop having concepts and opinions, which does not mean one will not have them, but that it can become possible to appreciate experience without being sucked into those ideas that spontaneously form in our minds as a result of
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-) Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. You mean like the dynamite going off every few minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca? :-) http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother in law were on that course. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-) Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. You mean like the dynamite going off every few minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca? :-) http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@... wrote: Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother in law were on that course. 1972. The first half of what has become known as the Mallorca-Fiuggi course was there in La Antilla. Inter- estingly enough, I never found the dynamite to be that big a distraction, but many people did. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-) Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. You mean like the dynamite going off every few minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca? :-) http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 15, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Robert wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non- meditation. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya- samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. In (TM-Speak) the non-meditator is only experiencing 'Diversity'... Although 'Pure Being' is always there in his awareness, he misses it and only experiences diversity in waking state, diversity in dream state and a gap of any experience during deep sleep. With the use of effortless mantra meditation, one begins to experience subtlety of thought and the transcedence of thought, and the experience of pure being when there is 'no mantra, no thoughts' and one is 'awake inside'...This awake inside, begins to be experienced further during sutra practice as one has the experience of pure being along with diversity... This produces the experience of 'Duality'...which is the most important step in the process of developing 'Unity of Consciousness'...duality begins the process of unity...where you are experiencing the difference between 'Any' manifestation with that of pure being or 'un-manifestion'...so, As one begins sutra practice and begins to experience of this finest level of thought, finest level of feeling, finest level of perception of anything, that is contrasted with Pure Being, Absolute Silence, Absolute any-thing. At the finest level of feeling, one begins to notice that there is a 'Gap' of experience between: Pure Being and manifest perception of thought at that finest level of feeling. Brahman is this Gap. Brahman is when this gap which is usually hidden becomes seen as associated with space, light, prana, that finest space between manifest and unmanifest Atma is Brahman/You are pure being manifesting as the entire creation, experienced within yourself as Brahman. The Brahma Sutras are the last chapter of the Vedas, the 'Grand Finale'.. The Brahma Sutras are the commentaries of Brahm. So, With practice this going from infinite being in awareness to finest 'Point'. of awareness: the sense of I within 'I-ness' the sense of ego disloves completely and ego becomes undifferentiated in Brahman. Brahman is Everything/Brahman is the highest, Brahman is the pinnicle of experience, you then walk on the highest plateau.. It is the most delicate area between manifest and unmanifest, awareness of the gap.. which can with practice become stablized in awareness, but not many humans have the patience and courage to go that far...wide and deep. Sounds great on paper. I know, you're right! I guess that's why Maharishi felt it was so rare to be in the presence of one that had reached that state, and always gave the credit to him that brought him to that state himself... But, perhaps it is possible for more people to reach and understand in due time...whatever that means.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Good rap, Xeno. My experience is similar to yours, in that over the years intellectual knowledge has become less and less interesting to me, to the point that now I have little tolerance for it. And interestingly in my case the tipping point was because of my own experience -- some of it with Rama - Fred Lenz, some with Buddhist teachers -- of having one's conceptual framework just fall away. *Whatever* it was that Rama did to achieve it, he did have a knack for being able to shift other people's state of attention. Radically. When discussing some aspect of duality (even if it involved some higher aspect of duality such as the siddhis or occult power), he wasn't just talking about it; he could shift your state of consciousness such that you were experiencing the state of attention he was talking about, *as* he talked about it. But then he'd mix it up to provide a series of Tantric contrasts. For example, after a few minutes talking about more occult, dualistic mindstates, he'd shift things radically and start talking about (and broadcasting) Unity. Bam! Suddenly *everything* he had been talking about earlier from the POV of occult dualism was now completely irrelevant. Nothing that you believed only five minutes ago was true is now either true any more, or relevant. I am not convinced that gaining intellectual knowledge (or, as you put it, strengthening one's conceptual framework) is of value in the pursuit of spiritual experience. The more firmly you come to believe that you know the truth, the further you are away from the truth. To some extent, coming to believe in some framework from which to view the world around you is like getting fat; every concept is just another pound weighing you down and interfering with an in-the-moment, more accurate view of the world around you and the ability to dance with it. That is rather like what I thought I was saying. I wasn't trying to disagree with you, merely to riff on your (good) ideas. On the whole (and knowing that some here are going to glom onto this remark as somehow insulting or elitist), I think that the tendency to glom onto dogma and conceptual frameworks is related to the *pace of change* inherent in different spiritual paths. In Tibet, for example, there is a distinction commonly made between the long path and the short path. Long path-ers would in my opinion tend to gravitate towards dogma and feeling that they know how things work, because their subjective state of attention (and sometimes state of consciousness) doesn't really change all that much, or all that quickly. Short path-ers, whose state of attention or SOC is changing every few days (or when in the presence of an empowerment teacher every few seconds) would IMO be less liable to find conceptual descriptions of reality accurate. Because their experience of it is ever-changing, as is the reality itself. When you come down to it, doesn't one's ability to hold a set of dogma or a set of explanations about How It All Works to be accurate or truth kinda depend on being stuck in one state of attention long enough TO consider them unchanging? :-) That said, in retrospect I think that Maharishi's simplistic rendering of seven states of consciousness is one of the most debilitating beliefs he ever came up with. Believing that waking state is only ONE state is like believing that white is the only color in the world. I'm much more comfortable with the Buddhist ten thousand states of mind, in which there can be *thousands* of variations in one's waking state state of attention, each of them as different from one another as MMY's simplistic waking state is from Unity. I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world high school. I was looking for a meal, and came late. There was pizza and ice cream, but I couldn't find a spoon, and finally I found a spoon in a tray of dirty dishes. Then the dream wandered on to something about drilling in sand, and that there were different kinds of drill bits one had to use depending on how deep one wanted to drill. Some time was spent trying to figure out which bit was for what depth, and in the dream, the drill bits did not really resemble real drilling bits, but looked like square boxes of metal with various things sticking out of them. Then I woke up, lying in bed. Ugh. Waking up did not feel particularly better than the dream. Both were experiences. But both these experiences have a thread of commonality in them. You once agreed with a statement I made saying the MMY scenario was basically kind of like a general average of possibilities. Up to a
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
HEJ DUDE This title construction noise...you should ask Jemima Pitman for help- but she was a little busy wasn't she [:D] here some photos: Mallorca, Spain 1972 January - March an island in the Mediterranean off the east coast of Spain Hotel Bahia del Este, Calla Millor, east side of the island Fiuggi, Italy 1972 March - May a medieval hilltown long known for its healing waters in the mountains of the Latium Province about 50 southeast of Rome Fiuggi Fonte (fountain) Fiuggi Castle Casamari Abbey -- in the Fiuggi countryside Mallorca, Spain 1972 January - March an island in the Mediterranean off the east coast of Spain bye bye romantic memories --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@ wrote: Hey Barry, what year was that TTC? I think my sister and brother in law were on that course. 1972. The first half of what has become known as the Mallorca-Fiuggi course was there in La Antilla. Inter- estingly enough, I never found the dynamite to be that big a distraction, but many people did. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:00 AM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. This is a good point Vaj. I was not suggesting that one retreat into silence. A lot of meditators get addicted to this, not that meditating a lot is bad, but as an excuse to avoid experiencing 'bad' things. The silence I was mentioning should still be there even if you are being crushed under the wheels of a dump truck. Although we are big on asking for objective proof of subjective claims here on FFL, I for one wish to say that I hope neither of your spiritual paths requires you to take the dump truck silence test anytime soon. :-) Of course the ultimate silence test has to be the one they tested Buddhist yogis with: a blast of very loud sound at the upper threshold of human tolerance. You mean like the dynamite going off every few minutes next door to my hotel on TTC in Mallorca? :-) http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=1611
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world high school. Utterly tangential to the topic of the thread, I also have persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility, specifically a residence course facility: the people in the dream don't know each other but have all come together to stay in the facility for a few days for some common purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context. But neither the setting nor the plot ever has anything explicitly to do with TM. I assume the setting refers to a residence course facility because residence courses are the only life experiences I've had that fit this pattern. The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world schools. The plots are all different as well, but one frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility, e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or going back and forth from a room in one part of the facility to another in a part of the facility far distant from it. I remember in one dream one of the CPs was Richard Nixon, and he was, in his self-conscious, awkward, socially inept manner, trying to flirt with me, which in the dream I thought was hilarious. Never figured that one out (but after I woke up I was fascinated that the dream had captured his personality so perfectly). Most of my dreams are so obscure I don't try to analyze them anyway. [Barry wrote:] What if everything I knew was wrong is not a challenging question, but a liberating one. IMO the more you think you know about reality and how it all works, the less you know. And the less likely you are ever to experience it as reality. I was replying to Judy here. I had formed a concept that she would find this difficult to do. I suspect this idea overstated her attachment to her own ideas, You were very right about that! It's a basic assumption I make, so to put it in the form of a What if... question is meaningless. (Of course, a difficulty arises if the premise includes itself: What if the assumption that everything I know is wrong, is also wrong? Or, what if the concepts I know and is wrong are themselves meaningless? It's turtles all the way down.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world high school. ...I also have persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility, specifically a residence course facility: the people in the dream don't know each other but have all come together to stay in the facility for a few days for some common purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context. snip The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world schools. The plots are all different as well, but one frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility, e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or going back and forth from a room in one part of the facility to another in a part of the facility far distant from it. My dreams of movement facilities are sometimes more involved, and I too am often searching to find my room, having left it and then trying to find my way back, and never finding out where it is again. Meditation is hardly ever evident in the dreams, although I often experience an aversion to doing some kind of program with others in the dream, I want to go off and be by myself. I never try to analyze my dreams, but if I remember them, they are often more entertaining that 'real' life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
When I go to bed at night I prepare myself for the equivalent of a three feature movie. My dreams are that clear, that long and usually entertaining. They average about three main themes per night. I can understand why I wake up just as tired as when I went to bed. That is a lot of work doing all that stuff all night long. I can't imagine being unconscious for 7 or 8 hours. I kind of hope I'm getting smarter and wiser after such a full 24 hours every day. But I'm not yet convinced of it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip I woke up this morning, not feeling particularly great (I am under medication on the advice of a physician). I was dreaming. I dreamed I was in some movement facility, which in my dreams always seems to resemble being in a third world high school. ...I also have persistent recurring dreams set in a movement facility, specifically a residence course facility: the people in the dream don't know each other but have all come together to stay in the facility for a few days for some common purpose, and the plot of the dream unfolds in that context. snip The facilities are all different; they're more like hotels or dormitories or big, grand old houses than third-world schools. The plots are all different as well, but one frequent element involves the many rooms in the facility, e.g., getting lost and not being able to find my room, or going back and forth from a room in one part of the facility to another in a part of the facility far distant from it. My dreams of movement facilities are sometimes more involved, and I too am often searching to find my room, having left it and then trying to find my way back, and never finding out where it is again. Meditation is hardly ever evident in the dreams, although I often experience an aversion to doing some kind of program with others in the dream, I want to go off and be by myself. I never try to analyze my dreams, but if I remember them, they are often more entertaining that 'real' life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it eventually dissolves into other states. CC is THE end state in yoga-darshana and various tantric systems. It's only from the POV of advaita vedanta that sees brahman consciousness as superior that it's parsed as inferior or transitional. Meditation is still required. Actually the transition from CC to UC is traditionally accomplished via Vedantic Contemplation, Nididhyanasana. So it's not meditation any longer. Meditations with objects are passe for such a shift in perception. In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction into the world is begun. It's only a divided state from the POV of Shankara's advaita vedanta. Not everyone believes that turiyatita (CC) is some inferior transitional state. I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a partial experience of life. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away. However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me, maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other esoteric designations. This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects, and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they all have something in common, and it is the experience of that singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically become mute. In the Shankara tradition there are four levels of Vedantic Contemplation and each ones sees totality differently. But Shankara also points out that meditation on brahman in the initial stages is actually meditation on the vritti of brahman. It's only at the very end that this vritti is let go. Some might argue, it never is let go. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill temper in life. No attachment to thoughts as they arise, persist and then disappear is what eventually dissipates the samskaras. Retreating into silence just causes addiction to the state of calm, and addiction to meditation techniques. The samskaras resolve themselves when they are viewed in terms of Self. When the witness to thoughts is established then self-referral is a natural process and this produces the experience of subtler states of what caused the whole process to begin with... It is only when the thing is hidden that it remains as if apart from Being. When Being is Established so that self-referral
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: The samskaras resolve themselves when they are viewed in terms of Self. When the witness to thoughts is established then self-referral is a natural process and this produces the experience of subtler states of what caused the whole process to begin with... It is only when the thing is hidden that it remains as if apart from Being. When Being is Established so that self-referral becomes a natural process then what is hidden, that is the apparent solidness of any experience, then becomes more transclucent in that Being and the subtlest aspect of manifestation show any phenomenal experience to be just a manifestion of Being. Being~ Becoming Perception and loses it's object oriented self, and instead is viewed in terms of the Self'... So, if everything is viewed in terms of Self or Soul, then there is no longer object and subject; Object and Subject are unified and this is what happens in Brahman Consciousness. Experience of Brahman is always in terms of 'Self-Referral'... Another aspect of experiencing Brahman is Bliss, because Brahman is Bliss, and Bliss is Brahman. And then, in the illumination of universal love, the abstract love of God finds concrete expression in everything. All becomes divine radiance of eternal love. Life finds its meaning in the living presence of God. Every phase of life then saturated with love breathes the living presence of God. Here, there, and everywhere, in this, that, and everything. Nothing but love and living presence of God. This is how, gradually, the personal love naturally moves on to gain the status of universal love. And universal love moves on to find its expression in personal love. Love and God, Maharishi
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Buck: Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. Or, I guess it all depends on how you can define 'meditation'. According to MMY, meditation is based on thinking. Meditation means simply 'to think things over'. If so, then everyone meditates. There's probably not a person on the planet who doesn't pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mind contents. And, we're all transcending - even without a specific technique! TM is just a more direct angle of diving. But, the question is: do you enjoy? Recently, I sat with Jokusho Kwong, the roshi of the Sononma Zen Center, when I visited my daughter in Santa Rosa. I've known the roshi since the days when I sat with Suzuki at the San Francisco Zen Center. I know that up in northern California lots of people practice various types of 'zen' meditation. Sonoma Mountain Zen Center: http://www.smzc.net/ Based on what Kwong said, I would say that at least HALF of the northern state of California meditates in one form or another! Go figure. meditation noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Buck wrote: However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. I thought meditation lead to non-meditation. Therefore, non- meditation is the goal of meditation. No meditation! No discipline! The pure mind that is the nature of all experience never comes into being or ceases to be; it cannot be created or destroyed: it has no structure. It cannot, therefore, be accessed through the structured activity of calculated discipline, and all goal-oriented meditation is such structured activity. Letting go of all practice whatsoever, including all the meditation techniques that condition the mind by focusing on an object of sight, sound or thought, there is no meditation and only an endless continuum of pure mind. -- Whoever follows the ancient sages' path becomes sick from attachment to the meditation process; his teachers' literal instruction construed as a quest he chases a stream of concepts, as if pursuing a mirage: the perfect modality cannot be indicated by words and any 'true doctrine' is a travesty of Vajrasattva. Whether Buddhist, Hindu or Bon, the classical path of meditation is a snare and a delusion when attachment to it becomes obsessive and it becomes an end in itself. The habit of meditation becomes a disease when there is no liberating function in the process. It is a disease when a blissful trance state seemingly separates an arrogant yogin from his mind. But above all it is a disease simply because it is goal-oriented and promises attainment only if the present is prostituted to the future. This state of alienation is caused by mistaking mental constructs for the path, to mistake the shadow of the meaning expressed in words for the thing itself. The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the here-and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Vajrasattva a mask of the ridiculous. - Keith Dowman (trans. and comment.) I think Buck is rambling on like an old religionist harking for the good old days. In our thoughts of what we call 'past' and our thoughts about about what we term 'future' we see certain similarities, but if we look at this reasonably, nothing ever really repeats exactly. Things drift in new directions. The good old days will never be back: the idea is an illusion. There may be new good days, but they will be different. Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. Same thing essentially. Meditation systems are a trick to get us to experience the context of thought, which in TM terminology is called 'the transcendent', as if it were some kind of object. As long as the system, whatever it is, functions well, these techniques are useful and good. But at some point techniques become mostly fruitless, and this is when they have actually done their job. Maybe like waxing polishing and old car. A lot of work as far as time goes, but once it is done, only a little touch up here and there once in a while. Techniques can get in the way when perspective on their use is muddled. The reason for meditating using any system is to get beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the context of thought but the relationship of thought with what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous. The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by virtue of starting some meditation system. Now the 'master', the original teacher may be free in this sense, but his or her followers are usually not, and they take up the charge, and if they end up in control of the developing tradition before their own meditation has run its course and they have been enlightened, because of the ingrained habit of taking concepts as the reality to which is aspired, they bring down the whole thing because there is insufficient perception among them to see what is happening, that they have fallen into the very trap from which they have meditated to escape.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: snip However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or something?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip The reason for meditating using any system is to get beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the context of thought but the relationship of thought with what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous. Given that this is the reason for meditating, then... The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by virtue of starting some meditation system. ...could you be more specific as to what about the conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of TM are understood has become a mental prison? The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having trouble translating it into its application for TM.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
On 02/13/2012 11:06 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationally—and the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Who are the non-meditators, Buck? The majority here, there and everywhere. :-) I practice meditation, just not TM. There are others here who practice other forms of meditation and often advanced ones. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: fairfieldlife-dig...@yahoogroups.com fairfieldlife-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: fairfieldlife-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@... wrote: Buck, The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators. Yet in material terms, they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia. They've bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds. Are you saying they are delusional? Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-) Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash in on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote: Buck, The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators. Yet in material terms, they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia. They've bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds. Are you saying they are delusional? Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-) Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash in on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ? Nabs, That's a good observation. I was hoping Buck would answer this question. Regarding your question, I would think that the US Federal Reserve Bank has enough money to pay for two trillion dollars to cover both countries' demands. At the present moment, the Bank owns about six trillion dollars in government bonds. However, the effect of paying those bonds would flood the world with excess dollars in the world market. As such, the value of the dollar would plummet in the market. Also, inflation of the American prices of goods would rise. So, it would be wise for both countries to let their investments stay for the long run. JR
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote: Buck, The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators. Yet in material terms, they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia. They've bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds. Are you saying they are delusional? Anyone buying a trillion dollars in US government are delusional :-) Another thought; what would the US do if the China and Japan wanted to cash in on these huge loans ? Would the US be able to pay ? Nabs, That's a good observation. I was hoping Buck would answer this question. Regarding your question, I would think that the US Federal Reserve Bank has enough money to pay for two trillion dollars to cover both countries' demands. At the present moment, the Bank owns about six trillion dollars in government bonds. However, the effect of paying those bonds would flood the world with excess dollars in the world market. As such, the value of the dollar would plummet in the market. Also, inflation of the American prices of goods would rise. So, it would be wise for both countries to let their investments stay for the long run. JR You are certainly well informed John.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: snip However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or something? Dear Authfriend, I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators here who pollute the pages of FFL with their non-meditaton rhetoric. You know what I mean an who they are. It was the usual ones. Time is short now, I've got to run go join the meditation here and I am running out of posts. Time to meditate. More later. Best Regards, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: snip However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. Buck, what was the example of spiritual intransigence you refer to? Did you mean to include a link or a quote or something? I'm sorry, Buck, I miswrote. The example you referred to was one of *secular*, not spiritual, intransigence. And you seemed to be speaking of something very specific that you'd just encountered recently, so I was intrigued. Still interested in what it was if you can spare a post. Dear Authfriend, I shan't give pleasure repeating the anti-meditators here who pollute the pages of FFL with their non-meditaton rhetoric. You know what I mean an who they are. It was the usual ones. Time is short now, I've got to run go join the meditation here and I am running out of posts. Time to meditate. More later. Best Regards, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip The reason for meditating using any system is to get beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the context of thought but the relationship of thought with what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous. Given that this is the reason for meditating, then... The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by virtue of starting some meditation system. ...could you be more specific as to what about the conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of TM are understood has become a mental prison? The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having trouble translating it into its application for TM. Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My early experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related to Buddhist practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep (though at the time I thought they were). The emphasis intellectually however was on direct experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on seeing that a lot of what we consider real is just a conceptual overlay on perception, and that that overlay controls our behaviour. After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done previously, I spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However after many years I found I was forgetting the insights I had previously gained. As the TM movement branched out into all sorts of auxilliary techniques and 'vedas' (e.g. sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting distracted. As a natural sceptic, eventually I scaled down or discarded most of this additional load, just maintaining TM. Instead of reading spiritual stuff I read science fiction, westerns, books by atheists. Then I just sort of stopped, except for meditation. One day, out of the blue, the conceptual framework of my experience simply blew away. Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from a dream. In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper, and I find I am much less attached to conceptual models, though of course I still must use them for practical things. The strange thing is this is the experience that is aimed at with meditation. It actually seems to come after everything seems to stop working pretty much. It is really mysterious, because it is also possible to lose the effect of the experience if a particularly difficult stress starts to release. Eventually it becomes more stable. Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it. It is so simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is easy to get totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience into the movement's sense of progression of experiences, but I began to reread and find new sources in other Eastern enlightenment traditions that seem to explain this experience much better. I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be buried in off-hand comments he has made. It is not directly spoken of, and so the focus on experiencing that one's conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, that one completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience, is diluted, and the attention is distracted to other pursuits, like balancing doshas and whatnot, and rectifying jyotish charts. This is all unnecessary unless it is the only way to keep someone meditating, which I do not believe is actually necessary because everyone is exactly what they are, every aspect of enlightenment is present all the time, and we are just distracted. Talking about the goal that occurs when meditation matures is really helpful. Maharishi started out teaching people that had no clue as to what spiritual knowledge consisted of. There are many more people today who now have a clue, but the bulk of the material in the TMO, at least what we hear, is aimed at the beginners, and it pictures enlightenment in much rosier terms than it really is. He tended to leave out the hard parts, to make it attractive to busy people. I think being intensely curious and probing one's own ideas and those of others helps a lot to kept from getting locked into a conceptual system. Conceptualisation is a tool to get through life. We grow up with it. It is what makes us forget who and what we are. I do not know what the best solution is, but meditating regularly, and a lot helps, but keeping the mind more flexible and not taking our ideas as seriously as we sometimes think they are, especially spiritual ideas, may help keep conceptualisation from overpowering the benefits of meditation. Yet in the end, seeing
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Thanks for your response, Xeno. All I can say is that I was pretty clear on this... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snip I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be buried in off-hand comments he has made. It is not directly spoken of, and so the focus on experiencing that one's conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, that one completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience, is diluted, and the attention is distracted to other pursuits, like balancing doshas and whatnot, and rectifying jyotish charts. ...from fairly early on in my TM experience. Don't remember now whether I heard it from a MMY tape or from TM teachers or what. It did seem to go along with MMY's Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness assertion. In any case, as I recall, you've made some fairly dogmatic conceptual statements about states of consciousness. You hold your own state to be the standard, or so it has sometimes seemed to me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Two excellent posts today, Xenophaneros Anartaxius, I enjoyed them -- and much of what you say mirrors my own experience. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: snip The reason for meditating using any system is to get beyond conceptual thought and experience not only the context of thought but the relationship of thought with what it represents, which typically is rather tenuous. Given that this is the reason for meditating, then... The problem every spiritual movement has is as time goes along, the conceptual framework by which is understood the reason and purpose of meditation, by way of peer pressure and group conformity becomes a mental prison just as imprisoning as the one one is supposedly escaping from by virtue of starting some meditation system. ...could you be more specific as to what about the conceptual framework by which the reason and purpose of TM are understood has become a mental prison? The principle you elucidate sounds right, but I'm having trouble translating it into its application for TM. Judy. All movements have this problem, at least in my estimation. My early experiences with 'transcendence' were not with TM but were related to Buddhist practices. The experiences that resulted were not deep (though at the time I thought they were). The emphasis intellectually however was on direct experience, on bypassing one's belief system, on seeing that a lot of what we consider real is just a conceptual overlay on perception, and that that overlay controls our behaviour. After learning TM, which I found easier than what I had done previously, I spent more time intellectually with the TM model. However after many years I found I was forgetting the insights I had previously gained. As the TM movement branched out into all sorts of auxilliary techniques and 'vedas' (e.g. sthapatya veda), I found my focus getting distracted. As a natural sceptic, eventually I scaled down or discarded most of this additional load, just maintaining TM. Instead of reading spiritual stuff I read science fiction, westerns, books by atheists. Then I just sort of stopped, except for meditation. One day, out of the blue, the conceptual framework of my experience simply blew away. Explaining this is difficult, but it was pretty much like waking from a dream. In the following years this shift has wormed its way deeper, and I find I am much less attached to conceptual models, though of course I still must use them for practical things. The strange thing is this is the experience that is aimed at with meditation. It actually seems to come after everything seems to stop working pretty much. It is really mysterious, because it is also possible to lose the effect of the experience if a particularly difficult stress starts to release. Eventually it becomes more stable. Maharishi said 'Unity is real, diversity is conceptual'. This is it. It is so simple. Yet the movement has so much conceptual baggage it is easy to get totally lost in it. I could not fit this experience into the movement's sense of progression of experiences, but I began to reread and find new sources in other Eastern enlightenment traditions that seem to explain this experience much better. I do believe Maharishi talked about this, but it seems to be buried in off-hand comments he has made. It is not directly spoken of, and so the focus on experiencing that one's conceptual view of life is essentially ridiculous, that one completely misconstrued the nature of spiritual experience, is diluted, and the attention is distracted to other pursuits, like balancing doshas and whatnot, and rectifying jyotish charts. This is all unnecessary unless it is the only way to keep someone meditating, which I do not believe is actually necessary because everyone is exactly what they are, every aspect of enlightenment is present all the time, and we are just distracted. Talking about the goal that occurs when meditation matures is really helpful. Maharishi started out teaching people that had no clue as to what spiritual knowledge consisted of. There are many more people today who now have a clue, but the bulk of the material in the TMO, at least what we hear, is aimed at the beginners, and it pictures enlightenment in much rosier terms than it really is. He tended to leave out the hard parts, to make it attractive to busy people. I think being intensely curious and probing one's own ideas and those of others helps a lot to kept from getting locked into a conceptual system. Conceptualisation is a tool to get through life. We grow up with it. It is what makes us forget who and what we are. I do not know what the best
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Well first off, Non-meditation. It's one Big sin against nature. Guru Dev was right, To get a human body is a rare thing -make full use of it. ... Every second in human life is very valuable. If you don't value this, then you will have nothing in hand and you will weep in the end. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote: ... How ya comin' on the list of Sins? . --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Non meditation as a term means 'no thought' which is almost exactly what the term transcendental meditation means, 'beyond thought'. In the context of these quotes, that is not what is meant by non-meditation. This is how I interpreted it. If that seems like too broad a brush to paint the image, it is a latitude I adopted. Remember Buck started this discussion, but I think you and I each took the meaning differently. In TM-speak, the closest thing I can think of is nitya-samadhi, CC, where samadhi allegedly is permanent and no meditation necessary. In the TM system, so I understand, CC is not permanent, it eventually dissolves into other states. Meditation is still required. In my own view of this, meditation of the TM kind eventually becomes more like Zazen because the so-called transcending process eventually has no place to transcend to. Transcendence, if you want to call it that, has an inner value and an outer value. Meditation starts with the inner direction, but eventually you also have to incorporate all other values of experience which includes all the outer values of life. CC means the inner direction is taken care of, but CC is a divided state because the experience of self is divided from the world and the individual mind and body, but it is a springboard from which transcending in the opposite direction into the world is begun. I recall hearing someone who said they heard Zen master once who said it was like being under water. Maybe like looking up at the world from the bottom of a swimming pool. But that is still a partial experience of life. In the context of Dzogchen atiyoga or Mahamudra, non-meditation is a state of dissolving any object meditated on nor any subject who meditates. It also refers to the fourth stage of Mahamudra in which nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated.' Now here I do not know these terms. But they interest you and perhaps are valuable for you. For me there are only stages of misconceptions and misunderstandings about life falling away. However if you can explain the terms in ordinary language to me, maybe I would learn something, but the words alone is for the time being for me just jargon. The words non meditation can be interpreted in many ways unless a specific meaning is defined up front for the discussion. It could mean never having meditating at all, having stopped meditation, or it could mean meditation has done its job and is no longer necessary; it could be given other esoteric designations. This might be somewhat similar to meditation on brahman, which really is not a conventional object. The word brahman does not refer to an object, it refers to the totality of experience; you cannot meditate on brahman, you can only be brahman, meaning brahman experiences brahman, it does not refer to individual perception but the context of perception. This is absolute being, where being is a verb. One still sees objects, and may name them etc., but there is the sense they are all basically the same. They do not have to dissolve. Their connexion with the whole is not lost, and in that sense they can be said to dissolve. There are all kinds of experiences one can have, but they all have something in common, and it is the experience of that singular commonality that brings fulfillment. Then all these terms used to describe various aspects of spiritual practice basically become mute. Also the state of non-meditation doesn't complain about thoughts or no thoughts, either is perfectly fine. Yes, I agree, if we say this loosely, but you have to have a thought to complain. Which is why silence removes a lot of ill temper in life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
Buck, The Red Chinese are more likely non-meditators. Yet in material terms, they appear to be properous than most countries in Southeast Asia. They've bought about one trillion dollars in US government bonds. Are you saying they are delusional? JR --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
There aren't enough active meditators on the planet to make any such conclusions via cause and effect. There's no evidence for the ME. ... How ya comin' on the list of Sins? . What if somebody ordered some Chinese food at the Olive Garden? Is that a sin and would the punishment be 10 slashes with a wet noodle? .. What if you're a Civil War Re-enactor and you come to the battle on the Union side wearing gray? Is that sin and what's the punishment? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Buck, have you decided what crops to lay-in this spring? I hear dental floss futures are trending higher. Your cute lil pygmy pony would look mighty nice runnin' thru a field of dental floss bushes.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Buck, have you decided what crops to lay-in this spring? I hear dental floss futures are trending higher. Your cute lil pygmy pony would look mighty nice runnin' thru a field of dental floss bushes. Drop the sheep Buck. You're too good for that. AzGrey--a conservative meditator.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Non-meditation
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/13/2012 06:11 PM, Buck wrote: Non-meditation It seems to me that many non-meditators have forgottenor never knewwhat it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality. We are open to good evidence and sound argument as a matter of principle, and are generally willing to follow wherever they may lead. Certain of us have made careers out of bemoaning the failure of people to adopt this same attitude. However, I recently stumbled upon an example of secular intransigence that may give readers a sense of how spiritual people feel when their methods as technologies are criticized. As you will see but for the rigorous research conducted it suggests that it is worth thinking about. We can call the phenomenon of non-meditation the delusion. The unhappy truth about non-meditation has been scientifically established to a moral certainty: That non-meditation is bad for you. It is bad for your children. It is bad for your neighbors and their children. Non-meditation is also completely unnecessary, because in the developed world we suppose we invariably have better and more effective alternatives for meditation even in our homes. If you are a non-meditator in the United States, Europe, Australia, or any other developed nation, you are most likely doing so recreationallyand the persistence of this habit is a major source of anti-spiritual pollution in cities throughout the world. In fact, non-meditation often contributes more harmful parameters of negativity particulates to the urban air than any other source. Certainly a human life is a terrible potential to waste in non-meditation. -Buck in FF Who are the non-meditators, Buck? The majority here, there and everywhere. :-)
