[Finale] "Satin Doll" on trial
Here is an interesting document regarding "Satin Doll" in a copyright suit: http://library.law.columbia.edu/music_plagiarism/042/042opinion.html It seems the Strayhorn Estate wants a bigger piece of the royalties. Cheers, Andrew Homzy - Department of Music Concordia University Montreal, Quebec CANADA H4B 1R6 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Dual-Monitor Support?
Yes, there certainly is. I use two monitors, a 21 inch and a 17 inch. In page view I set them one over the other (digitally, not physically) and can see a whole 11x17 page at 100% with lots of room around the edges for palettes. In scroll view, I set them side by side and can see many measures at once. For orchestral scores it makes life unbelievably easier. I can't imagine how I was ever able to work with only one monitor since I have been using two. BF - Original Message - From: "Jim Hale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mailing List - Finale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: [Finale] OT: Dual-Monitor Support? > I have the opportunity to get an Nvidia Gforce4 MX440 Video card for > nothing and it supports Dual-Monitors. I was just wondering if there was > any benefit to this regarding Finale. > > Thanks! > > Jim Hale > --- > 'The OS Tells The PC What To Do With Itself" - Me, 1990 > --- > Visit Our MIDI & Digital Audio Website at http://hale.dyndns.org or Our > Forums At http://haleforum.dyndns.org > > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 07:22 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: >> Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >> octave-transposing instruments. >> >> - Darcy > > > But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments > do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass > clefs. So don't use them on the part, just in the score! - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 5:17 PM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >On 2002/10/13 04:23 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > >> I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when >> writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as >> picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave >> read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the >> convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where >> it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not >> concert-pitch scores. > >Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >octave-transposing instruments. > >- Darcy But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass clefs. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Cocert v Transposed.
As Darcy said- it seems to be a religious thing, or WindowsVMac, so can we accept that- "you say tomayto, and I say tomarto- let's call the whole thing off!!" Each to his/her own, eh? Regards, Keith in OZ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Dual-Monitor Support?
I have the opportunity to get an Nvidia Gforce4 MX440 Video card for nothing and it supports Dual-Monitors. I was just wondering if there was any benefit to this regarding Finale. Thanks! Jim Hale --- 'The OS Tells The PC What To Do With Itself" - Me, 1990 --- Visit Our MIDI & Digital Audio Website at http://hale.dyndns.org or Our Forums At http://haleforum.dyndns.org ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 04:23 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when > writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as > picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave > read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the > convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where > it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not > concert-pitch scores. Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for octave-transposing instruments. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] stems direction and Patterson Beams
David, of course you're right, that it is ambiguous according to the middle-line stem reversal rule (stems-down is _preferred_ anyway), but IMO the majority rule, which applies primarily to stem direction of chords, holds true also in this particular case. Please note that Finale stems down also examples C to H, so there really is no explanation why ex.B has stems up. Yes, freezing stem direction cures a problem with Patterson Beams, but then you have to watch slur direction -- slur will jump to the other side :( with best regards, Abel Korzeniowski C: - --O-- --O-- --O-- - D: - --O---O-- --O---O-- --O-- - E: O O - --O-- --O-- F: O O --O-O --O-- --O-- G: O O - - --O-- H: O - - --O-- --O-- H. Bailey wrote: > > All the major notation references I have seen state that notes beneath > the middle line of the staff have stems up, that notes above the middle > line have stems down and that notes ON the middle line can have their > stems go either way. In the case of beamed notes which straddle the > middle line, the note furthest from the middle line determines the stem > direction. If both are equally place (as in example A of Abel's post) > it is arbitrary how the stems should go, the decision being based on > the surrounding stems. > > In example B, it is still ambiguous and the stems could go either way. > There is nothing I have seen which would demand that the stems go up or > down in such a case, although I would prefer to see it with stems down. > > It seems you are saying that Patterson Beams can't adjust the beam angle > the way that Finale has the stems up. Have you tried switching the stem > direction manually and then applying Patterson Beams? That might change > things. > > Good luck. > > > > Abel Korzeniowski wrote: > > I've found a strange behavior: > > > > if you have two beamed eight notes, laying respectively > > on the 2nd and 4th line (example A), > > Finale stems this figure down, which is preferable. > > > > A: > > > > -O-- > > > > --O- > > > > > > > > now, try to make a chord out of the second eight, > > adding a note on the 3rd line (example B). > > Finale stems it up! -- which is incorrect, as the majority > > of notes, should weight stems DOWN. ...or am I wrong? > > > > B: > > > > -O-- > > -O-- > > --O- > > > > > > In itself, this would make not a big deal, but... > > that kind of symmetrical groups is > > IMMUNIZED TO PATTERSON BEAMS! > > i.e. the plugin can't touch their beam angle. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 6:09 PM +1000 10/13/02, helgesen wrote: >Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, >Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? >Regards, Keith in OZ Bass tuba is non-transposing, and they are as used to 6 ledger lines below the staff as flute and violin players are used to 6 ledger lines above the staff. I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not concert-pitch scores. Actually, lack of standardisation in C scores is one of the reasons I only write transposed scores. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 5:58 AM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >At any rate, there is an incredible amount of unreasonable prejudice against >concert pitch scores. It's like the musical equivalent of speaking with a >southern accent -- it's guaranteed to make people instantly assume you're an >idiot. (This despite the established composers who have used them.) Established composers are assumed to be idiots if they use southern accents? Gee, I had no idea! 8-) > >The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >"display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >play. This is my problem too. I simply turn on "Display in concert pitch" for Speedy Entry, and turn it off for everything else. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] contra-alto clarinet
At 6:00 AM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >On 2002/10/13 05:46 AM or thereabouts, Eden - Lawrence D. ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > >> Should I write the part as if it were a bass part and have the contra >> pretend the part is in treble clef, or should I write in treble clef and >> apply an Eb transposition? > >The latter. (Unless, perhaps you live in Germany?) > >- Darcy Don't forget it's up a 6th AND AN OCTAVE for the Eb contra-alto clarinet, same transposition as baritone sax, not merely up a 6th, like the alto clarinet and alto saxophone. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Daily Warm Up Exercise
Some time ago, someone found a 'Daily Warm Up Exercise' for saxohone* on the internet, enhanced and clarified by Bill Spilka, collection of Bernie Privin. I didn't keep the graphics (pdf?) file, I only have the print. Do any of you have the file? Or know where I can find it? Barbara Touburg *for extra flexibility, simply repeat in alto, tenor and bass clefs after the usual 12 key-change and 8va run-throughs ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 03:10 PM 10/13/02 -0500, John Howell wrote: >Are you suggesting that orchestral clarinetists don't have >both A and Bb clarinets? Or that violists try to play their parts on >violins? Or ... or what? A least four real-life examples that have happened to me (in performance): Right on #1! Amateur orchestra with only a Bb clarinet to play the part written for A clarinet. A tenor sax substituting for a French horn player who got sick. Violins redistributed to cover the viola part because only one violist arrived. A part-time conductor who could not read a transposed score well enough to hear mistakes. Also, I live in Vermont, and only recently have there been enough players to go around in the smaller orchestras. I write considerable music for amateur ensembles, so my job is to help the performance, not hinder it. Since the bulk of my music is keyless, there's really no point to making a transposition with a key signature, while it's confusing to tranpose it without one. I go with simple, so everybody with basic skills can read it. If you're a professional conductor, you can read a concert-pitch score as well as anything else anyway, right? If you're not, you probably need a concert-pitch score for efficiency -- especially if you have seriously chromatic/atonal music that offers no harmonic guides. By the way, I just had a look, and the UE Berg Chamber Concerto for violin, piano & 13 winds, for example, is at concert pitch: "In dieser Partitur gibt es ... keine transponierenden Instrumente mehr. Alle Instrumente (auch Piccolo und Kontrafagott) klinge dem nach so, wie sie notiert sind." Even professional conductors often depend on tonal harmonic context to read transposed scores. (Not just context; sometimes they depended on other assistance, such as recordings -- Leinsdorf slammed his colleagues pretty hard some years ago in "The Composer's Advocate", as did Slonimsky on a regular basis.) I recall an embarrassing incident at a house party where a over-happy conductor was wailing through some Beethoven symphony from the full score. Then I opened some atonal goodie sitting on the piano for him to play. That didn't last long, though he got some of the string parts right. :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation of natural harmonics
On 2002/10/13 07:48 AM or thereabouts, Jari Williamsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Darcy James Argue writes: > >> How do people generally prefer to see natural harmonics? >> >> 1) At pitch, with the circle (with a "Sul G" or whatever, where >> appropriate). > > For the octave harmonic only (the one at the middle of the string), using it > on other harmonics is probably considered old-fashion notation. No, "Sul > [string]" needed, since the octave harmonic is pretty self-explanatory. > >> 2) With the diamond notehead alone. >> >> 3) With the diamond notehead indicating the node plus a regular notehead >> indicating the string, with the desired pitch in parentheses (i.e., same as >> artificial harmonics). > > #3 would indicate that all you care about is that the string is a harmonic, > not how it's played or how it sounds. I assumed players would default to a natural harmonic where possible, unless otherwise indicated. > If you want a natural harmonic string > sound (with the "open string" quality), you should use #2 with a "Sul > [string]" indication to avoid ambiguities. In this notation, is it helpful to have the sounding pitch indicated in parentheses? Also, let give a specific "for instance" involving double harmonics. Let's say I want a double harmonic for cello -- the fourth partial on both the C and G strings. Should I then write diamond noteheads at the appropriate nodes -- F (below the bass clef staff) and C? - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Dennis wrote: > >And in the real orchestra pit in East Bumstock, how many performances >actually use instruments in the keys as specified in the score? Or even the >instruments themselves as specified? Huh Either I don't understand the intended humor, or that's a slightly naive question. Are you suggesting that orchestral clarinetists don't have both A and Bb clarinets? Or that violists try to play their parts on violins? Or ... or what? That wind players are no longer using 1-keyed flutes or natural trumpets in F (except in period orchestras)? But you're right about concert/transposed being a religious debate. Like Mac/Windoze. John John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 03:17 PM or thereabouts, John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Only if you assume that we stupid Americans can only read treble and bass > clefs. Remember that the moveable C clefs are also "concert pitch." You > can't read them? Why not? Become fluent in reading all 9 moveable clefs > and they become a wonderful tool for transposing. And they're all "concert > pitch." Well, obviously it would raise more than a few eyebrows to have the horn or tenor sax parts in the score written in tenor clef. (Of course any competent conductor reads tenor clef just fine but that's not the point.) It would be more confusing than simply switching back and forth between treble and bass as the situation demands, simply because it's so out of the ordinary, and would likely make the conductor wonder what on earth you were thinking. >> The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >> transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >> "display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >> otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >> the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >> play. > > Clearly a matter of personal taste, and nobody is going to persuade anyone > else to switch over. In my case, it would drive me nuts if the pitches I > read off the page were not notated as they will be seen by the player, > because when I was younger I made a point of learning to play all the > instruments at least well enough to understand (a) what the actual tone > quality of each note is throughout the range and (b) what is easy on each > instrument and what is difficult. When I see the transposed part I know > exactly how it will balance and blend. A pianist would probably prefer > concert pitch. Well, another not inconsiderable benefit to doing note entry in concert pitch is being able to simply copy doubled passages, without having to also transpose them appropriately. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Avoidance of bass clefs.
On 2002/10/13 09:45 AM or thereabouts, Andrew Stiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > The difference is, as I explained (for the umpteenth time) in another > post, that the use of bass clef is simply not obsolete. It is > absolutely current in the areas where it has been traditional. Look, Andrew, I'm sorry if you're tired of pointing this out but there's no need to get testy. I don't follow every thread here (does anyone?) and this is the first time I've heard you (or anyone else) mention that German bass clef notation is not obsolete. This contradicts other information I've run across. I'm happy to take your word for it, though. > But aside from that, we were talking about the term "non-standard", > and you provided a definition whereby, indeed, the old horn notation > is not non-standard. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you need to > refine your definition. Come on, now, you know very well that I meant "nonstandard" *today*, not as it applies to the entire body of orchestral repertoire past and present. There are any number of archaic notational practices that are rightly avoided today -- would you also claim that writing an Eb in one octave when you intend it to apply to E's in all octaves is also "not nonstandard"? This whole question came up when someone wondered why a composer *today* (in the non-Germanic world) would want to notate the bass clarinet in bass clef. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Darcy James Argue wrote: >That is a trivial problem when using a concert pitch score >(or score in C, or whatever you wanna call it). [...] >The real problem are the horns, which will require either excessive ledger >lines, or numerous clef changes, many of which will not be needed in the >part. The same problem applies to the tenor sax and (to a lesser extent) to >bass clarinet. Only if you assume that we stupid Americans can only read treble and bass clefs. Remember that the moveable C clefs are also "concert pitch." You can't read them? Why not? Become fluent in reading all 9 moveable clefs and they become a wonderful tool for transposing. And they're all "concert pitch." >The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >"display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >play. Clearly a matter of personal taste, and nobody is going to persuade anyone else to switch over. In my case, it would drive me nuts if the pitches I read off the page were not notated as they will be seen by the player, because when I was younger I made a point of learning to play all the instruments at least well enough to understand (a) what the actual tone quality of each note is throughout the range and (b) what is easy on each instrument and what is difficult. When I see the transposed part I know exactly how it will balance and blend. A pianist would probably prefer concert pitch. John John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] contra-alto clarinet
>Dear Listers, > >What is the best way to write a Contralto Clarinet part for the average >high school player? > >Should I write the part as if it were a bass part and have the contra >pretend the part is in treble clef, or should I write in treble clef and >apply an Eb transposition? > >Thanks. > >Larry The theoretical answer is that all clarinets, like all saxes, are notated in treble clef with the appropriate transposition. The practical answer is that these high school players read from tuba parts most of the time, and are used to reading bass clef in concert pitch. That's the case with the bass sax player in our community band, and I just give him parts the way he wants them. I'll be interested to see what others have to say. John John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] stems direction and Patterson Beams
On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, "Abel Korzeniowski" wrote: > In itself, this would make not a big deal, but... > that kind of symmetrical groups is > IMMUNIZED TO PATTERSON BEAMS! Unfortunately, Finale does not tell plugins the direction of stems. (Believe me, I've requested it!) As a result, PB (and other plugins) must infer the stem direction based the notes and a reverse-engineering of Finale's default behavior. Given the large number of options and differences between Finale versions, this is an extremely complex and unreliable task. As a result, PB occasionally guesses wrong. In these cases, PB will not be able to edit the beams. The workaround (as someone else suggested) is to freeze the stems in the direction you want. Then PB will correctly calculate the stem direction. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: TAN: Anomalies in 'Le Sacre...' Score (was Re: [Finale] Clef refuses to display)
Not so much an anomaly, but another controversy (at least in the horn world) is the question of which octave the "Tenor Tuba" parts sound in. (These parts are actually played on Wagner Tube by the 7th and 8th horn players.) Some people say the Tenor Tubas should be in unison with the Bass Tubas. Others say they should be an octave higher. I personally find the arguments and sources for the octave higher camp to be more persuasive. But you can hear the discrepancy on recordings. For example Boulez/NYPO is octave higher while Solti/CSO is unison. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: TAN: Anomalies in 'Le Sacre...' Score (was Re: [Finale]Clef refuses to display)
At 06:58 AM 10/13/02, Mark D. Lew wrote: >At 11:47 PM 10/12/02, Colin Broom wrote: > >>Ok, I'll come clean. For reasons that are too uninteresting to explain, >>I've been putting the Introduction of Part 1 of of Stravinsky's 'The Rite of >>Spring' into Finale. Suffice to say it's related to the lecturing work at >>University. So the bass clarinet example I cited in the previous post is >>from bar 13 of the Introduction. In both the Boosey and Hawkes study score >>and the Dover Edition score there is a bass clef at preceding bar 13 >>followed by a A (transposed) on the first space. > >Hm, that IS strange. I'm fairly certain that the bass clarinet is moving >down just a half step from the previous note. Why it suddenly switches to >bass clef is beyond me. (Surely it's not just to avoid ledger lines below >the treble clef?) Looking at the score, I would actually guess that it *is* to avoid ledger lines -- which would collide with the bassoon part just below it. Does anyone have access to a copy of the part? Chances are that the part remains in treble clef. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 13.10.2002 14:43 Uhr, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote > At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: >> Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the >> conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the >> clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking >> about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying >> hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing >> B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this >> out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". > > So wait, all these Great Transposing Players who can Play In Any Key At > Sight can't figure out the transposition from a C score when the conductor > asks? Even from my own erstwhile & wayward performing days, I remember the > question always being phrased as, "Are you playing an A concert there?" Point taken, I was only trying to be funny. Seriously, I personally like to see transposed instruments also transposed in the score. A lot of factors play a role in that, one being that I find it much easier to "feel and think" like the performer, something I regard pretty important for anyone conducting (in my case directing) ensembles. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Avoidance of bass clefs.
On 2002/10/12 10:09 PM or thereabouts, Andrew Stiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: In this case, then, the bass clef is not non-standard, since any professional bass clarinettist must have a mastery of that clef, since numerous German works from the standard repertoire are so notated. Well, yes, but numerous works from the standard rep also notate the horns up a fourth when in bass clef (instead of down a fifth). Surely you would not recommend either of these practices to a contemporary composer or arranger. - Darcy The difference is, as I explained (for the umpteenth time) in another post, that the use of bass clef is simply not obsolete. It is absolutely current in the areas where it has been traditional. But aside from that, we were talking about the term "non-standard", and you provided a definition whereby, indeed, the old horn notation is not non-standard. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you need to refine your definition. NB: I am going on a brief vacation, so any reply to this post will not be received until Thursday. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 8:43 AM -0400 10/13/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". It's not that hard! I always say "written B should be Bb" or "At bar 4, the second note, concert F, should be E natural". It's an old habit that I acquired after the first player said, "B written or concert?" and if I define my terms in the context of my request, no player has ever expressed confusion. All this talk of chaos over transposed/non-transposed scores is overwrought, in my opinion. But then I don't live in Germany. . . Linda Worsley -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: >Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the >conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the >clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking >about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying >hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing >B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this >out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". So wait, all these Great Transposing Players who can Play In Any Key At Sight can't figure out the transposition from a C score when the conductor asks? Even from my own erstwhile & wayward performing days, I remember the question always being phrased as, "Are you playing an A concert there?" And in the real orchestra pit in East Bumstock, how many performances actually use instruments in the keys as specified in the score? Or even the instruments themselves as specified? I know concert/transposed is one of those religious debates, so I'll genuflect my way outta here right now... I'm a concert-score believer, hallelujah. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation of natural harmonics
Darcy James Argue writes: > How do people generally prefer to see natural harmonics? > > 1) At pitch, with the circle (with a "Sul G" or whatever, where > appropriate). For the octave harmonic only (the one at the middle of the string), using it on other harmonics is probably considered old-fashion notation. No, "Sul [string]" needed, since the octave harmonic is pretty self-explanatory. > 2) With the diamond notehead alone. > > 3) With the diamond notehead indicating the node plus a regular notehead > indicating the string, with the desired pitch in parentheses (i.e., same as > artificial harmonics). #3 would indicate that all you care about is that the string is a harmonic, not how it's played or how it sounds. If you want a natural harmonic string sound (with the "open string" quality), you should use #2 with a "Sul [string]" indication to avoid ambiguities. Also, please take into account that all natural harmonics (except on the the octave) can be achieved at different positions on one string. Some positions are more difficult than others, depending on the player's skill and which string/instrument. And then there's the possibily to "fake" natural harmonics, but that should probably be left to the players. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ICQ #: 78036563 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] stems direction and Patterson Beams
All the major notation references I have seen state that notes beneath the middle line of the staff have stems up, that notes above the middle line have stems down and that notes ON the middle line can have their stems go either way. In the case of beamed notes which straddle the middle line, the note furthest from the middle line determines the stem direction. If both are equally place (as in example A of Abel's post) it is arbritrary how the stems should go, the decision being based on the surrounding stems. In example B, it is still ambiguous and the stems could go either way. There is nothing I have seen which would demand that the stems go up or down in such a case, although I would prefer to see it with stems down. It seems you are saying that Patterson Beams can't adjust the beam angle the way that Finale has the stems up. Have you tried switching the stem direction manually and then applying Patterson Beams? That might change things. Good luck. Abel Korzeniowski wrote: I've found a strange behavior: if you have two beamed eight notes, laying respectively on the 2nd and 4th line (example A), Finale stems this figure down, which is preferable. A: -O-- --O- now, try to make a chord out of the second eight, adding a note on the 3rd line (example B). Finale stems it up! -- which is incorrect, as the majority of notes, should weight stems DOWN. ...or am I wrong? B: -O-- -O-- --O- In itself, this would make not a big deal, but... that kind of symmetrical groups is IMMUNIZED TO PATTERSON BEAMS! i.e. the plugin can't touch their beam angle. can anyone confirm this? with best regards Abel Korzeniowski ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 06:09 PM 10/13/02 +1000, helgesen wrote: >Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, >Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? All my scores since 1968 are only at concert pitch, except for octave-transposing instruments (which are so marked at the clefs; I even use the transposing-treble for tenor voices). I have always written full scores at concert pitch, and was first taught (35 years ago now) that for new scores in the U.S. (except band scores), concert pitch was recommended because no matter how the parts might be later re-edited for changing players or standards, the score will be good. I was copyist for an ensemble in the late 1960s that required me to write out parts from a 'wet' photocopy of Berlioz's F&T Symphony -- before it was republished, I think, as this miserable copy came from the "publisher" in Paris. Aside from my own nightmare of redoing horn transpositions to every key (pre-valved horns) to F horns, I watched the conductor (who was no slouch) and wind ensemble get into train wreck after train wreck with this score that combined nonstandard transpositions, moveable clefs (not just alto & tenor), obsolete instruments, and instruments in abandoned transpositions. The conductor can transpose off the score when talking to players, but double-transposing (score to A clarinet back to Bb clarinet, if that's the performer's preference) is a guaranteed disaster. That was an incredible object lesson for me as a young composer, so all my scores from then on were written at sounding pitch. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] contra-alto clarinet
Write in treble clef and apply an Eb transposition. Eden - Lawrence D. wrote: Dear Listers, What is the best way to write a Contralto Clarinet part for the average high school player? Should I write the part as if it were a bass part and have the contra pretend the part is in treble clef, or should I write in treble clef and apply an Eb transposition? Thanks. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text blocks - any way to mirror them?
If the text was short, as in your example, I would always use expressions and place them as measure expressions rather than note expressions. Sorry. I wonder if TGTools has such a utility. Other than seeing if that has such a utility, I know of no easy way to mirror. You can highlight and copy the text in the first staff, then double click to start a text box in the next staff and then paste, repeating for each staff. This is hardly quick or easy, but it is easier than retyping for each text box. Phil Shaw wrote: I have 29 files, each with mirrored staves for Bb, C, Eb, and Basss cleff transpositions of musical examples. I want to add text-block annotations to them. I discover that text blocks that I add to the master staff don't get mirrored. *) Is there any way to achieve such mirroring? *) If not, any ideas for an easier way to do the job other than enter the same text block 4 times? Am I using the wrong tool? I.e. to add notes such as "chromatic passage" underneath a staff, should I be using the Expression tool? (Damn I hope not). Many thanks for any info. Phil Shaw - [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 13.10.2002 3:18 Uhr, David H. Bailey wrote > Speaking as a conductor, I like to see in my score just what the player > sees in the part. That way there is no confusion, I know exactly what > the player is looking at and we can sort out any problem from there. I > would hate to have the bass clarinet part in the score be written in > bass clef at sounding pitch while the actual part is transposed to Bb > and written in treble clef a major 9th up. Absolutely. Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] stems direction and Patterson Beams
I've found a strange behavior: if you have two beamed eight notes, laying respectively on the 2nd and 4th line (example A), Finale stems this figure down, which is preferable. A: -O-- --O- now, try to make a chord out of the second eight, adding a note on the 3rd line (example B). Finale stems it up! -- which is incorrect, as the majority of notes, should weight stems DOWN. ...or am I wrong? B: -O-- -O-- --O- In itself, this would make not a big deal, but... that kind of symmetrical groups is IMMUNIZED TO PATTERSON BEAMS! i.e. the plugin can't touch their beam angle. can anyone confirm this? with best regards Abel Korzeniowski ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Notation of natural harmonics
String players, How do people generally prefer to see natural harmonics? 1) At pitch, with the circle (with a "Sul G" or whatever, where appropriate). 2) With the diamond notehead alone. 3) With the diamond notehead indicating the node plus a regular notehead indicating the string, with the desired pitch in parentheses (i.e., same as artificial harmonics). The third option makes the most sense to me, but I'm not a string player. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] contra-alto clarinet
On 2002/10/13 05:46 AM or thereabouts, Eden - Lawrence D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Should I write the part as if it were a bass part and have the contra > pretend the part is in treble clef, or should I write in treble clef and > apply an Eb transposition? The latter. (Unless, perhaps you live in Germany?) - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 04:09 AM or thereabouts, helgesen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, > Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? Oh, come now. That is a trivial problem when using a concert pitch score (or score in C, or whatever you wanna call it). One can (A) make an exception for octave-transposing instruments (not a big deal); (B) use octave-transposing clefs for such instruments (or in the case of the glock, a two-octave transposing clef); or (C) deal with the ledger lines, à la Schoenberg. I tend to go with (B) myself. And by the way, tubas (including bass and contrabass tubas) are not transposing instruments. The real problem are the horns, which will require either excessive ledger lines, or numerous clef changes, many of which will not be needed in the part. The same problem applies to the tenor sax and (to a lesser extent) to bass clarinet. At any rate, there is an incredible amount of unreasonable prejudice against concert pitch scores. It's like the musical equivalent of speaking with a southern accent -- it's guaranteed to make people instantly assume you're an idiot. (This despite the established composers who have used them.) My own view is that transposed scores are most useful in music with a key signature. They make less sense (and, for me at least, are somewhat more difficult to read) in music without key signatures, and so I tend to use concert pitch scores for my own music. But preference for one over the other seems largely a matter of what one is used to -- for instance, it is just as easy to "see" things like the break on a clarinet, or tricky horn passages, etc, in a concert pitch score, provided you're used to reading one. The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with "display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to play. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: TAN: Anomalies in 'Le Sacre...' Score (was Re: [Finale] Clef refuses todisplay)
At 11:47 PM 10/12/02, Colin Broom wrote: >Ok, I'll come clean. For reasons that are too uninteresting to explain, >I've been putting the Introduction of Part 1 of of Stravinsky's 'The Rite of >Spring' into Finale. Suffice to say it's related to the lecturing work at >University. So the bass clarinet example I cited in the previous post is >from bar 13 of the Introduction. In both the Boosey and Hawkes study score >and the Dover Edition score there is a bass clef at preceding bar 13 >followed by a A (transposed) on the first space. Hm, that IS strange. I'm fairly certain that the bass clarinet is moving down just a half step from the previous note. Why it suddenly switches to bass clef is beyond me. (Surely it's not just to avoid ledger lines below the treble clef?) >While we're on the subject of apparent anomalies in the Rite score, there >are a few rhythms in the score that seem to me to not quite add up. For >example the Flute 1 tuplet in bar 25 (rehearsal point 5). By my count, >there seem to be too many notes in this measure. Is this correct? The only >way I can see this adding up is if there were 2 additional nested triplets >(or 1 sextuplet) over the 2nd and 3rd notes, and also the 4th, 5th & 6th >notes. The way I understand this bar is that there is a triplet over the entire beat (ie, matching the triplet in the oboe melody). For the second and third of these triplet eighths, there is a nested triplet for the 16ths. That is, the high G# is played for 5/9ths of the beat, and each of the other notes is played for 1/9th of the beat. If you think of it as coloring to go with the oboe, it feels totally natural. The 2nd flute does the exact same thing in the following measure. I agree that this isn't clear in the Boosey score, but there are several instances of similar nested triplets throughout the section which are explicitly marked, eg the alto flute after [6], and the 1st and 2nd flutes right before [7] For what it's worth, I'm not speaking from any academic authority here nor as a flutist who has played it. I'm just someone who happens to be familiar with the piece as a listener and score reader. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] contra-alto clarinet
Dear Listers, What is the best way to write a Contralto Clarinet part for the average high school player? Should I write the part as if it were a bass part and have the contra pretend the part is in treble clef, or should I write in treble clef and apply an Eb transposition? Thanks. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
In a message dated 13/10/2002 00:33:35 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that score-reading would be simplified to a very great degree if all parts were written at actual pitch and in the appropriate clef - and I have seen this done in some 20th-century scores. I find exactly the opposite. When I have been forced to use scores in concert pitch I find it very difficult to hear the sounds and find myself having to do a "back transposition". In a "normal" score, I can see the position of the transposing instruments on the stave and have a good idea of what the sound will be like. Paradoxically, this also applies when the brass are in their classical transpositions. I can't explain that, I suppose it's just what I'm used to. All the best, Lawrence Of sourse, I am a horn player and used to transposing anyway. http://lawrenceyates.co.uk
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
I agree totally. Parts should- nay- *must* be done for the convenience of the players. If a conductor is not experienced enough to read the score in transposed parts then work needs to be done - by them. After many years of arranging I automatically- and unconsciously, transpose all parts, as seen, to concert. eg I see G written for French horn and its a C. I see G for Alto Sax, it's Bb, D for Alto flute it's A, etc.The only time it gets me in trouble is when for example, I say to a horn player,something like- "Your E is a misprint- change it to Eb"- horn player looks at me and says but I haven't got E, I've got B. Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? Regards, Keith in OZ - Original Message - From: Ken Durling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Finale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch. > The main argument against this for me, as someone who has done a fair > amount of conducting, is that after you have studied all the > instruments and their characteristic sound in different parts of their > range, I would much rather see what the player sees, and have therby a > very clear sense of what the player is confronting sonically and > technically. Characteristic or problematic note combinations, > extremes of range, idiomatic figures, all stand out more clearly in a > transposed score. The transposing to sounding pitch just takes > practice, and should be a part of a conductor's or a composer's > training. > > > Ken > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Text blocks - any way to mirror them?
I have 29 files, each with mirrored staves for Bb, C, Eb, and Basss cleff transpositions of musical examples. I want to add text-block annotations to them. I discover that text blocks that I add to the master staff don't get mirrored. *) Is there any way to achieve such mirroring? *) If not, any ideas for an easier way to do the job other than enter the same text block 4 times? Am I using the wrong tool? I.e. to add notes such as "chromatic passage" underneath a staff, should I be using the Expression tool? (Damn I hope not). Many thanks for any info. Phil Shaw - [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
