Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[A-NO-NE Music]

Jacki Barineau / 2006/06/24 / 09:54 PM wrote:

>Thanks, Everyone, for the responses!  I'm learning a lot here!  Okay,  
>so which would be better to use - the compound G"over"F or the  
>F6/9#11 - I mean which would a musician understand better, and which  
>would be the music theory "correct" way of symbolizing this chord?


The chord name derives chord scale.  If you are certain the dictated
chord scale is F Lydian then F6/9(#11) is fine.  Otherwise, it should be
left as G over F.


-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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[Finale] Hornblower. OT

[keith helgesen]

I wish to get in touch with John Keane, the man credited
with the music to TV series Hornblower. 

 

That’s the British Naval TV saga set in Napoleonic
times, based on the C.S.Forester novels about Horatio Hornblower. It’s
currently on Foxtel pay TV here in OZ.

 

Great music, but I can find no recordings or reference to availability
of sheet music for band (or orchestra).

 

I can find John Keane, and Hornblower as a web-site- but I
think there are several John Keanes, and no contact for any. (Maybe their
choice!)

 

As ever, all assistance and guidance appreciated.

 

Cheers K in OZ

 

Keith Helgesen.

Director of Music, Canberra City Band.

Ph: (02) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171

 








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Re: [Finale] Additional questions on "Kate"

[Carl Dershem]

Christopher Smith wrote:



On Jun 24, 2006, at 11:24 PM, John Howell wrote:


More Modern (no problem)
Raucous Burlesque (written so we seem to be getting it)
New Orleans-Slow & Bluesy (no problem)
Boogie Woogie (no problem)
The Slither (??)



That's a square dance move. Some of these markings might be more for the 
choreographer than for the musicians. I've seen a lot of cues in scores 
that are designed to help the musical director communicate with the 
dancers - this might be one of them.


I've nevr played "Kate", but it sounds to me as though you've hit the 
nail on the head with this one.  A lot of the shows I've done have had 
cues for the choreographers and directors buried in the music.


cd
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Re: [Finale] Additional questions on "Kate"

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 24, 2006, at 11:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

In the 1999 revision of "Kiss Me, Kate," there are some indications 
that appear to be style indications, but some of them are 
unfortunately over my head.  If you can help me define any of these 
styles, I can pass the answers on to our conductor.




I can handle of few of these.


In "Wunderbar":  "a la Luchow's" (?)



Luchow's is (was?) a famous German restaurant in the 30's in NYC. I 
imagine the style is a Bavarian waltz.



In "Too Darn Hot," which goes through a catalog of contrasting swing 
styles (and any comments on the style itself that would help us 
interpret the notes properly would be appreciated):

Swing 4 (no problem)
Society Swing (different?)


I little more precious and bouncier than what we recognise as good 
swing from the era nowadays (white, really, before the white musicians 
had picked up on the proper swing style.) I always thought the Paul 
Whiteman or Jimmy Dorsey bands typified this style. Maybe Lawrence 
Welk's theme song is an example?



	Benny Goodman (I think I understand; anything really distinctive 
about his style?)


He was one of the few white bandleaders from the time who understood 
the feel. It's generally more up-tempo, smoother, and a more even than 
others from the period. Plus he had Gene Krupa on drums and Harry James 
on trumpet, which helped quite a bit! (unless it is a small group feel, 
in which case I would think it's more like his Sextet recordings.)




30's Broadway (?)


Everything short and vibratoed. Lots of tongue in the brass. If you can 
find any recordings from the era (maybe movies are the best best, like 
42nd street) that would give you a good example.



More Modern (no problem)
Raucous Burlesque (written so we seem to be getting it)
New Orleans-Slow & Bluesy (no problem)
Boogie Woogie (no problem)
The Slither (??)


That's a square dance move. Some of these markings might be more for 
the choreographer than for the musicians. I've seen a lot of cues in 
scores that are designed to help the musical director communicate with 
the dancers - this might be one of them.




Lester Lanin (well written to force a style, but any suggestions?)


I know he died in 2004 (!) and he led a society band that would have 
been well known in the 30's and later (he played for almost every 
Presidential inauguration since Eisenhower except 2 (Carter and Bush 
junior) , but other than that...




Lindy (?)


That's a dance. I know it should be played at a certain tempo, and it 
should be a swing rhythm, and it resembles a Charleston but not as 
heavy. Maybe a choreographer's marking again.



Gospel (?)


Hmm, big subject. Depends on the era and the tempo, but fast tempos 
have big backbeat and certain syncopations that are part of the style, 
but if they are written out it shouldn't be a problem.



Christopher

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Re: [Finale] Additional questions on "Kate"

[Darcy James Argue]

Standard B'way practice, at least for long(-ish) slurs. Slurs of 2-4  
notes are usually still note-side, but someone may have decided it's  
worth putting them all above, for the sake of consistency.


It would be nice if Finale supported this automatically. It wouldn't  
be too hard -- Finale could include separate placement options (over,  
under, note-side, stem-side) for short, medium, and long slurs.


- Darcy
-
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On 24 Jun 2006, at 11:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Oh!  But I did have a question with Finale content!  As a matter of  
deliberate engraving style, almost all slurs are entered above the  
staff, even when the noteheads are down.  All I can think of is  
that it keeps things a little cleaner below the staff for dynamics,  
but it's still catching my eyes and anything that distracts is not  
what I would call a Good Thing.  Is that a Broadway thing, or a  
personal engraver's style or just a style I haven't run into  
before?  (Well of course it could be all three!!)


John

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[Finale] Additional questions on "Kate"

[John Howell]

In the 1999 revision of "Kiss Me, Kate," there are some indications 
that appear to be style indications, but some of them are 
unfortunately over my head.  If you can help me define any of these 
styles, I can pass the answers on to our conductor.


In "Wunderbar":  "a la Luchow's" (?)

In "Too Darn Hot," which goes through a catalog of contrasting swing 
styles (and any comments on the style itself that would help us 
interpret the notes properly would be appreciated):

Swing 4 (no problem)
Society Swing (different?)
	Benny Goodman (I think I understand; anything really 
distinctive about his style?)

30's Broadway (?)
More Modern (no problem)
Raucous Burlesque (written so we seem to be getting it)
New Orleans-Slow & Bluesy (no problem)
Boogie Woogie (no problem)
The Slither (??)
Lester Lanin (well written to force a style, but any suggestions?)
Lindy (?)
Gospel (?)

Thanks in advance.  Private answer would be fine, since there's no 
Finale content.


Oh!  But I did have a question with Finale content!  As a matter of 
deliberate engraving style, almost all slurs are entered above the 
staff, even when the noteheads are down.  All I can think of is that 
it keeps things a little cleaner below the staff for dynamics, but 
it's still catching my eyes and anything that distracts is not what I 
would call a Good Thing.  Is that a Broadway thing, or a personal 
engraver's style or just a style I haven't run into before?  (Well of 
course it could be all three!!)


John


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Re: [Finale] Trombones

[Don Hart]

Hi David,

I'm not sure what the specific situations are that limit your expectations,
but in a professional setting I expect the nomenclature to be adhered to, or
that someone will notify me of a needed change.  When I write for bass trbn
I have a fairly particular sound in mind: that resonant, fat sound that is
only really achieved with a large bore instrument.  Substituting a large
bore tenor like the 88H will change the texture of the score, at least to
some degree.  Use my Selmer with it's stuffy little F-attachment, and all
bets are off.  

The more specific a requested sound or style (especially if exposed or
featured) and the further it is from a perceived norm, the more specific the
attempt should be in specifying the desired instrument and/or player.  In
studio work this sometimes necessitates discussing personnel with the
contractor, making sure he and the player(s) know what is needed.  I've also
called players directly, when I know who has been booked, to check their
comfort level with something I have in mind.

I feel like there is a perceived norm for bass trbn when I ask for it, but
contrabass trbn seems to be much more specialized, though that may be due to
the fact that I haven't written for CBT and don't know of one locally.


Don Hart


on 6/24/06 6:57 AM, dhbailey at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Christopher Smith wrote:
>> 
>> On Jun 23, 2006, at 5:16 PM, John Howell wrote:
>> 
>>> At 4:42 PM -0400 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
> 1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in
> BB-flat,
> though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are an octave
> lower than
> the tenor-bass instrument used today, regardless of its boresize.
> 
 
 
 Actually, Mirafone makes one that is pitched in F.
>>> 
>>> Gentlemen, we are arguing semantics, and my only concern is with sound.
>> 
>> 
>> Actually, nomenclature is very important when specifying instruments for
>> a score, which is what we all do here.
>> 
>> So yes, it is helpful to know what instrument will be used when we
>> specify bass trombone or contrabass trombone.
>> 
> 
> But even if we use the nomenclature that we think is clear, we still
> don't know what instrument will be used when we specify bass trombone or
> contrabass trombone.
> 
> Many people play bass trombone parts on large-bore tenor trombones with
> f-attachments, while many others play them on trombones with F and D
> attachments (did I get that second one right?) which have larger bores
> and give a fatter sound.
> 
> But specifying Bass Trombone only guarantees that you might get an
> instrument with an F-attachment -- I've even seen those parts played on
> obvious tenor trombones even without particularly large bores but with F
> attachments to enable them to get the lower notes.  Not great tone, but
> the pitches were there.  Not the sound the composer had in mind, I'm sure.
> 
> Specify contrabass trombone and you may get a tuba playing the part.
> The musicians playing the parts will determine what instrument plays
> that part, not the nomenclature we put on it.

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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Darcy James Argue]

Jackie,

Both are correct. What you write depends on the context: is this  
chord symbol just a label above a fully written-out piano part, or is  
it above slash marks?


If the specific triadic G-over-F voicing is crucial, and it's above  
slash marks, G-over-F is your best bet. If the precise arrangement of  
notes in the voicing can be left to the discretion of the player, or  
if it's just a label above a piano part that's already fully-written  
out, "F6/9(#11)" is better.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 9:54 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:



On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Right -- "F6/9#11)" is the most concise non-compound chord notation.


Thanks, Everyone, for the responses!  I'm learning a lot here!   
Okay, so which would be better to use - the compound G"over"F or  
the F6/9#11 - I mean which would a musician understand better, and  
which would be the music theory "correct" way of symbolizing this  
chord?


Thanks again!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Jacki Barineau]

On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Right -- "F6/9#11)" is the most concise non-compound chord notation.


Thanks, Everyone, for the responses!  I'm learning a lot here!  Okay,  
so which would be better to use - the compound G"over"F or the  
F6/9#11 - I mean which would a musician understand better, and which  
would be the music theory "correct" way of symbolizing this chord?


Thanks again!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Carl Dershem]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


At 05:46 PM 6/24/06 -0700, Carl Dershem wrote:

And there's always the possibility that because of the current shrinking 
of the world through technology, that it will take a while for everyone 
to catch up to the status quo.  AT present, a lot of people in 
"third-world" countries are catching up to 'modern' notation and 
sonality and the like, and learning what those of us in western Europe 
and north America take for granted.
A question is:  Once that is done, what will those new voices add that 
we haven't really considered before?



Thanks for that excellent consideration of the topic. We have shoehorned
many of these non-European musics into western notation, and there are
working notations (such as Javanese gamelan and Indian carnatic) that don't
fit well at all, and elementary modular transcriptions of African music
plus what I think of as a kind of Esperanto of African music notation,
Greenotation.

Very good point indeed. Now when will Finale support these? :)

Dennis


Not in 2007.  :)

cd
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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 05:46 PM 6/24/06 -0700, Carl Dershem wrote:
>And there's always the possibility that because of the current shrinking 
>of the world through technology, that it will take a while for everyone 
>to catch up to the status quo.  AT present, a lot of people in 
>"third-world" countries are catching up to 'modern' notation and 
>sonality and the like, and learning what those of us in western Europe 
>and north America take for granted.
>A question is:  Once that is done, what will those new voices add that 
>we haven't really considered before?

Thanks for that excellent consideration of the topic. We have shoehorned
many of these non-European musics into western notation, and there are
working notations (such as Javanese gamelan and Indian carnatic) that don't
fit well at all, and elementary modular transcriptions of African music
plus what I think of as a kind of Esperanto of African music notation,
Greenotation.

Very good point indeed. Now when will Finale support these? :)

Dennis







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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Darcy James Argue]

Right -- "F6/9#11)" is the most concise non-compound chord notation.

- Darcy
-
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Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 8:07 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:


Or  F6/9(#11) is another pretty common symbol for that chord.

Definitely not F13(#11), as it is missing the essential Eb.

Christopher


On Jun 24, 2006, at 5:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

It's functionally a FMA13(#11), with the major seventh omitted  
from the voicing. You didn't say what key the piece is in, but  
it's probably a I or IV chord.


The clearest nomenclature is a compound chord:

G
—
F

(Make sure you have "under root" selected in Finale.)

You could also write "FMA13(#11, omit 7)" but IMO that's  
needlessly verbose.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.   
It's basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in  
the bass (F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you  
call this?!  It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in  
the key of G (Em) and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The  
chord after it is an Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Carl Dershem]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


At 06:23 PM 6/24/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote:

Conversely, notation does not show advances during periods of compositional
conservatism like the rather extreme one we're experiencing, and the
coincidence of notation software and compositional conservatism magnify the
consequences.

The consequences are that notational evolution slows, and in this
particular period, the advances made in the earlier decades are being
pushed back. Cycling back will likely restore those advances, but it
doesn't assure another revolutionary change to the vocabulary.


And there's always the possibility that because of the current shrinking 
of the world through technology, that it will take a while for everyone 
to catch up to the status quo.  AT present, a lot of people in 
"third-world" countries are catching up to 'modern' notation and 
sonality and the like, and learning what those of us in western Europe 
and north America take for granted.


A question is:  Once that is done, what will those new voices add that 
we haven't really considered before?  If the contributions are equal to 
those made by former slaves in the US, the changes will be remarkable.


cd
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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 06:23 PM 6/24/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote:
>I'm missig your point here, as Andrew was talking about *notational* 
>innovation. I don't know of any particular notational innovation most 
>of your examples.
>I believe Andrew was talking about the big breaks in notation where 
>new kinds of music emerged and forced a new kind of notation. 
>Beethovan and the Sturm und Drang period certainly did not in any way 
>stretch the notational systems precisely because the innovations they 
>exhibited could perfectly well be represented in the existing 
>notational system without alteration to it.

Okay, good. Thanks for clarifying and warding off a sematic trainwreck.

We slightly misread each other. He was responding to my 'cycling back' as
being about notation, and I was talking about composition opening the doors
to notational advance. If composition cycles back into the experimental
state, then notational advances can happen ('can' does not mean 'will').

Conversely, notation does not show advances during periods of compositional
conservatism like the rather extreme one we're experiencing, and the
coincidence of notation software and compositional conservatism magnify the
consequences.

The consequences are that notational evolution slows, and in this
particular period, the advances made in the earlier decades are being
pushed back. Cycling back will likely restore those advances, but it
doesn't assure another revolutionary change to the vocabulary.

Dennis






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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Christopher Smith]

Or  F6/9(#11) is another pretty common symbol for that chord.

Definitely not F13(#11), as it is missing the essential Eb.

Christopher


On Jun 24, 2006, at 5:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

It's functionally a FMA13(#11), with the major seventh omitted from 
the voicing. You didn't say what key the piece is in, but it's 
probably a I or IV chord.


The clearest nomenclature is a compound chord:

G
—
F

(Make sure you have "under root" selected in Finale.)

You could also write "FMA13(#11, omit 7)" but IMO that's needlessly 
verbose.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's 
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the bass 
(F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call this?!  
It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key of G (Em) 
and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord after it is an 
Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Suddenly, Mass Edit is mostly inop

[Dan Carno]

Hi Ken,

Well..we've all done this.  At least TGTools coughs politely 
and asks if you intend to process the whole document.  Finale just sits 
there and lets you feel foolish!


Best,

Dan

At 07:08 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:
Boy, am I losing my grip!!!? Amazing how well stuff works when you select 
the passage to which it will be applied. Thank you very , very much. Once 
again, the list to the rescue.


Daniel Carno
Music Engraving Services
Quality work in Sibelius, Finale, and Score
4514 Makyes Road
Syracuse, New York 13215
(315) 492-2987
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: [Finale] Suddenly, Mass Edit is mostly inop

[D. Keneth Fowler]

Hi Dan,
Boy, am I losing my grip!!!? Amazing how well stuff works when you
select the passage to which it will be applied. Thank you very ,
very much. Once again, the list to the rescue.
Ken
At 06:22 PM 6/24/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Ken,
Do actually have a passage selected when you do this?
Dan
At 06:00 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:
To the wisdom of the list,
again,
I just discovered that when I click Mass Edit in the tool bar  many
of its functions are grayed out. Among the dead is Music Spacing. When I
open the drop down menu Music Spacing looks normal, but the three options
to the right of the arrows heads are grayed out. Fit Music works fine,
but many other functions in the drop down menu are grayed out. If you
need more info to assess the situation, please ask
Your assistance will be gratefully received.
Ken
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4514 Makyes Road
Syracuse, New York 13215
(315) 492-2987
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Re: [Finale] Dotted slurs...

[Éric Dussault]

Le 06-06-24 à 17:46, Kim Patrick Clow a écrit :

Is there a way to increase the hashing/dotted effect to make it  
more noticeable?


With the smart shape tool you can not increase it on a case by case  
basis. It is a global setting in the smart shape options.  
Specifically Dash length and space that you could modify to  
accomodate shorter slurs. It will also affect built-in dotted lines  
in other smart shape tools.


Eric Dussault



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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Bob Florence]

F13#11

Jerry



In an F13#11, would you net an E flat in the chord. The chord in 
question is an G triad over an F triad.


Bob Florence




On 24-Jun-06, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's 
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the 
bass (F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call 
this?!  It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key 
of G (Em) and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord after 
it is an Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Gerald Berg

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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[David W. Fenton]

On 24 Jun 2006 at 16:26, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

> At 12:40 PM 6/24/06 -0400, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> >I don't think this "cycling back out" is likely any time soon. 
> >Historically, the norm for notation is a very gradual evolution based
> > on changing understanding of what notations mean. Periods of frank
> >experimentation come along only about once every 300 years, and
> >seldom last very long.
> 
> The recently-ended experimental period was a long stretch, about 75
> years, and the last one was only a century earlier (Beethoven). Before
> that, the time largely ignored now, Sturm und Drang. And Mannerism,
> that spectacular post-Renaissance turmoil. And the previous biggie, of
> course, and probably my favorite, the Ars Nova.

I'm missig your point here, as Andrew was talking about *notational* 
innovation. I don't know of any particular notational innovation most 
of your examples.

I believe Andrew was talking about the big breaks in notation where 
new kinds of music emerged and forced a new kind of notation. 
Beethovan and the Sturm und Drang period certainly did not in any way 
stretch the notational systems precisely because the innovations they 
exhibited could perfectly well be represented in the existing 
notational system without alteration to it.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Suddenly, Mass Edit is mostly inop

[Dan Carno]

Hi Ken,

Do actually have a passage selected when you do this?

Dan

At 06:00 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:

To the wisdom of the list, again,

I just discovered that when I click Mass Edit in the tool bar  many of its 
functions are grayed out. Among the dead is Music Spacing. When I open the 
drop down menu Music Spacing looks normal, but the three options to the 
right of the arrows heads are grayed out. Fit Music works fine, but many 
other functions in the drop down menu are grayed out. If you need more 
info to assess the situation, please ask


Your assistance will be gratefully received.

Ken

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Daniel Carno
Music Engraving Services
Quality work in Sibelius, Finale, and Score
4514 Makyes Road
Syracuse, New York 13215
(315) 492-2987
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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RE: [Finale] 20th century notations (was Tremolos)

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell
> Sent: 24 June 2006 23:03
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] 20th century notations (was Tremolos)
> 
> 
> At 4:12 PM -0400 6/24/06, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
> >At 02:14 PM 6/24/06 -0400, John Howell wrote:
> >>And let's not forget that the development of non-traditional
> >>notations in the 20th century was driven by one and only one
> >>non-musical requirement:  music could not be copyrighted unless it
> >>could be represented on paper.  Since it WAS necessary, composers
> >>developed those notations, but except for that copyright requirement
> >>those composers might have dropped notation entirely as being too
> >>inexact for what they wanted to express.
> >
> >Where did you ever come up with that? I have never in my 
> life heard that
> >theory, and have never known a composer who has said that 
> was the reason
> >they have added to the symbolic vocabulary. Was this 
> somebody's PhD thesis? :)
> 
> No, just my own logical inference, based on no research whatsoever.
> 
> Item:  U.S. copyright law of 1909 only covered music rendered on 
> paper.  (I don't know whether the law in other countries was similar.)
> Item:  20th century composers developed new notations--on 
> paper--without which their work could not have been covered by 
> copyright.
> Conclusion:  The need for copyright protection, probably among other 
> needs, influenced personal decisions to develop new paper notations.
> 
> Are you suggesting that this was NOT one factor, whether anyone spoke 
> about it or not (since it was simply a legal given for most of the 
> 20th century)?
> 


'One' factor is very different from 'the one and only'.

And any notated composition would be covered by copyright irrespective
of notational novelties.

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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Darcy James Argue]

On 24 Jun 2006, at 5:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

It's functionally a FMA13(#11), with the major seventh omitted from  
the voicing. You didn't say what key the piece is in, but it's  
probably a I or IV chord.


Ooops... I notice you *did* say the piece was in either G maj. or E  
min. So it's either a bVIIMA7 or a bIIMA7, both also common uses of  
the MA13(#11) sonority.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY




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Re: [Finale] 20th century notations (was Tremolos)

[John Howell]

At 4:12 PM -0400 6/24/06, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

At 02:14 PM 6/24/06 -0400, John Howell wrote:

And let's not forget that the development of non-traditional
notations in the 20th century was driven by one and only one
non-musical requirement:  music could not be copyrighted unless it
could be represented on paper.  Since it WAS necessary, composers
developed those notations, but except for that copyright requirement
those composers might have dropped notation entirely as being too
inexact for what they wanted to express.


Where did you ever come up with that? I have never in my life heard that
theory, and have never known a composer who has said that was the reason
they have added to the symbolic vocabulary. Was this somebody's PhD thesis? :)


No, just my own logical inference, based on no research whatsoever.

Item:  U.S. copyright law of 1909 only covered music rendered on 
paper.  (I don't know whether the law in other countries was similar.)
Item:  20th century composers developed new notations--on 
paper--without which their work could not have been covered by 
copyright.
Conclusion:  The need for copyright protection, probably among other 
needs, influenced personal decisions to develop new paper notations.


Are you suggesting that this was NOT one factor, whether anyone spoke 
about it or not (since it was simply a legal given for most of the 
20th century)?


Once the necessity was there, of course, I don't question that a lot 
of good creativity by a lot of people much smarter than I went into 
the developments, for reasons they felt were perfectly reasonable. 
That's how it works.  Make something necessary, and people will 
respond with creativity.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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[Finale] Suddenly, Mass Edit is mostly inop

[D. Keneth Fowler]

To the wisdom of the list, again,

I just discovered that when I click Mass Edit in the tool bar  many of its 
functions are grayed out. Among the dead is Music Spacing. When I open the 
drop down menu Music Spacing looks normal, but the three options to the 
right of the arrows heads are grayed out. Fit Music works fine, but many 
other functions in the drop down menu are grayed out. If you need more info 
to assess the situation, please ask


Your assistance will be gratefully received.

Ken 



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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Darcy James Argue]

No, Jerry. There's no Eb, so there's no way it can function as a  
dominant 13th chord. Plus, it resolves right into a straight FMA7,  
meaning the extensions (9, #11, 13) are just decorating the FMA7  
sonority.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 5:50 PM, Gerald Berg wrote:


F13#11

Jerry


On 24-Jun-06, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's  
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the  
bass (F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call  
this?!  It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key  
of G (Em) and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord  
after it is an Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Gerald Berg

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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Darcy James Argue]

It's functionally a FMA13(#11), with the major seventh omitted from  
the voicing. You didn't say what key the piece is in, but it's  
probably a I or IV chord.


The clearest nomenclature is a compound chord:

G
—
F

(Make sure you have "under root" selected in Finale.)

You could also write "FMA13(#11, omit 7)" but IMO that's needlessly  
verbose.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's  
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the  
bass (F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call  
this?!  It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key  
of G (Em) and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord after  
it is an Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Gerald Berg]

F13#11

Jerry


On 24-Jun-06, at 5:37 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote:


Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's 
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the bass 
(F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call this?!  
It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key of G (Em) 
and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord after it is an 
Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Gerald Berg

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[Finale] Dotted slurs...

[Kim Patrick Clow]

I am trying to create editorial slurs (editioral meaning that I'm adding slurs that aren't in the manuscript).
I'm using the dotted/hashed item in the smart tools box, 
but since the distance between the two notes is rather small, the dotted effect is not very obvious.
Is there a way to increase the hashing/dotted effect to make it more noticeable?
 
Thank you.
Kim Patrick Clow 
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[Finale] Another Jazz Chord Question!

[Jacki Barineau]

Hi, Everyone!

Okay - I've got another jazz chord I'm trying to figure out.  It's  
basically a G chord in the treble (G-B-D) with an F chord in the bass  
(F-A-C).  Is this some sort of F13#4?  Or what would you call this?!   
It definitely has the "F" flavor to it.  It is in the key of G (Em)  
and the chord before this one is an Em7.  The chord after it is an  
Fmaj7.


Thanks!

Jacki

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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 12:40 PM 6/24/06 -0400, Andrew Stiller wrote:
>I don't think this "cycling back out" is likely any time soon. 
>Historically, the norm for notation is a very gradual evolution based 
>on changing understanding of what notations mean. Periods of frank 
>experimentation come along only about once every 300 years, and seldom 
>last very long.

The recently-ended experimental period was a long stretch, about 75 years,
and the last one was only a century earlier (Beethoven). Before that, the
time largely ignored now, Sturm und Drang. And Mannerism, that spectacular
post-Renaissance turmoil. And the previous biggie, of course, and probably
my favorite, the Ars Nova.

But my point was that experimentation is ongoing with rare exceptions --
and this time is one of the exceptions (ca. 1985-present). Its beginning
also corresponded with the introduction of notation programs, meaning there
was no pressure of any kind to include the complete music symbology as
represented by Karkoschka et al. And I'd suspect some symbiosis as
composers wrote to the software, particularly since Finale (and now
Sibelius) were and are new nonpop-hostile in design and execution.

This temporary conservative retrenchment will break down within a decade,
if history is any guide. And with cycles increasing in speed, I expect that
by 2010 we'll see it happening. The only problem will be the stratification
I mentioned -- I think of it as the 'professional' composers vs. the
'creative' composers.

The Moeller/Shim/Staebler "SoundVisions" book shows that notational
improvement continues, so there will be no generational loss while we work
ourselves out of the present climate.

Dennis








-- 

Please participate in my latest project:
http://maltedmedia.com/waam/



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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 02:14 PM 6/24/06 -0400, John Howell wrote:
>And let's not forget that the development of non-traditional 
>notations in the 20th century was driven by one and only one 
>non-musical requirement:  music could not be copyrighted unless it 
>could be represented on paper.  Since it WAS necessary, composers 
>developed those notations, but except for that copyright requirement 
>those composers might have dropped notation entirely as being too 
>inexact for what they wanted to express.

Where did you ever come up with that? I have never in my life heard that
theory, and have never known a composer who has said that was the reason
they have added to the symbolic vocabulary. Was this somebody's PhD thesis? :)

Dennis





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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[John Howell]

At 12:40 PM -0400 6/24/06, Andrew Stiller wrote:

On Jun 23, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


"Once we cycle back out of these conservative artistic times and experiment
once becomes part of the composer's attitude, the software situation (and
codification dilemma) may improve -- or, as I suggested above, it may
result in further stratification of composers into a collaborative class
and a rejectionist class."


I don't think this "cycling back out" is likely any time soon. 
Historically, the norm for notation is a very gradual evolution 
based on changing understanding of what notations mean. Periods of 
frank experimentation come along only about once every 300 years, 
and seldom last very long.


And let's not forget that the development of non-traditional 
notations in the 20th century was driven by one and only one 
non-musical requirement:  music could not be copyrighted unless it 
could be represented on paper.  Since it WAS necessary, composers 
developed those notations, but except for that copyright requirement 
those composers might have dropped notation entirely as being too 
inexact for what they wanted to express.


But the evolution in interpretation of "standard" notation comes much 
more rapidly, usually within 2 or at most 3 generations.  Jazz and 
classical musicians interpret identical notation in different ways 
today, and jazz interpretation itself has evolved rapidly from the 
ricky-tick of ragtime and the '20s to swing to whatever is understood 
today.  Which is exactly how something as universally understood as 
baroque interpretation can be lost as fashions and styles evolve 
while the notation does not.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Tremolos

[Andrew Stiller]

On Jun 23, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

"Once we cycle back out of these conservative artistic times and 
experiment
once becomes part of the composer's attitude, the software situation 
(and

codification dilemma) may improve -- or, as I suggested above, it may
result in further stratification of composers into a collaborative 
class

and a rejectionist class."


I don't think this "cycling back out" is likely any time soon. 
Historically, the norm for notation is a very gradual evolution based 
on changing understanding of what notations mean. Periods of frank 
experimentation come along only about once every 300 years, and seldom 
last very long.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/

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Re: [Finale] Pizzicato (Finale 2002)

[Darcy James Argue]

As of Finale 2006, separate "arco" expressions for each instrument  
are not necessary -- HP automatically triggers the correct GM patch  
or (when using GPO) keyswitch.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Jun 2006, at 9:32 AM, Ken Moore wrote:


"Lee Actor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> Define pizz. and arco expressions with playback parameters that
> execute a program change to the appropriate patch.  For my MIDI  
setup

> I have one of each expression defined for each string section; if
> you're using the GM string patch you would only need two expressions
> total.

GM distinguishes the arco sounds, so long before FinWin 2004, which  
I currently use, I had an expression library with one pizz. and  
four arco expressions.  The violin, viola, 'cello and bass arcos  
were distinguished by zero, one, two, and three spaces before the  
word. Nowadays I would append vn, va, vc and cb in non-printing style.


--
Ken Moore
Musician and engineer

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RE: [Finale] Pizzicato (Finale 2002)

[Ken Moore]

"Lee Actor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> Define pizz. and arco expressions with playback parameters that
> execute a program change to the appropriate patch.  For my MIDI setup
> I have one of each expression defined for each string section; if
> you're using the GM string patch you would only need two expressions
> total.

GM distinguishes the arco sounds, so long before FinWin 2004, which I 
currently use, I had an expression library with one pizz. and four arco 
expressions.  The violin, viola, 'cello and bass arcos were 
distinguished by zero, one, two, and three spaces before the word. 
Nowadays I would append vn, va, vc and cb in non-printing style.


--
Ken Moore
Musician and engineer

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Re: [Finale] Trombones

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Jun 23, 2006, at 5:16 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 4:42 PM -0400 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in 
BB-flat,
though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are an octave 
lower than

the tenor-bass instrument used today, regardless of its boresize.




Actually, Mirafone makes one that is pitched in F.


Gentlemen, we are arguing semantics, and my only concern is with sound.



Actually, nomenclature is very important when specifying instruments for 
a score, which is what we all do here.


So yes, it is helpful to know what instrument will be used when we 
specify bass trombone or contrabass trombone.




But even if we use the nomenclature that we think is clear, we still 
don't know what instrument will be used when we specify bass trombone or 
contrabass trombone.


Many people play bass trombone parts on large-bore tenor trombones with 
f-attachments, while many others play them on trombones with F and D 
attachments (did I get that second one right?) which have larger bores 
and give a fatter sound.


But specifying Bass Trombone only guarantees that you might get an 
instrument with an F-attachment -- I've even seen those parts played on 
obvious tenor trombones even without particularly large bores but with F 
attachments to enable them to get the lower notes.  Not great tone, but 
the pitches were there.  Not the sound the composer had in mind, I'm sure.


Specify contrabass trombone and you may get a tuba playing the part. 
The musicians playing the parts will determine what instrument plays 
that part, not the nomenclature we put on it.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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