Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Chuck Israels wrote: I find myself aligned with the two Davids - thinking about and entering the music more or less the way they describe as natural to them, but I can't tell if that's because Finale's Speedy Entry methods have trained me to be that way, or if Speedy just suits my way of operating. My jury will be out on the subject until I have spent some time trying out the other method. When I'll take time to do that is anybody's guess, but I will give it a try, because I've seen those MM guys (mostly Tom Johnson) fly with it. [snip] One thing I find disingenuous about experts in any field telling others what works best, whether it Suze Orman telling others what would be the best way to handle their money or Deepak Chopra telling others what's the best way to deal with stress in their lives, or Chuck Norris telling others what's the best way to get into shape, is that all they're really saying is This is how *I* can do things best so obviously that will be the best way for *you* to do things, too. Tom Johnson may work very fluently in simple entry -- he may well have had a lot of input into how it works so it may well have been improved around what works best for Tom Johnson, rather than simply being improved in some sort of a vacuum and then Tom simply trying it and working at it until he mastered it. So whenever anybody, but especially a corporate somebody, tells me something is great I always take it with a grain of salt and add a silent for *you* maybe to the remarks. And because of all the gee, this works for me so I'm an expert and this is how you must do things crap I see floating around me, I have taken to trying hard not to make such statements for others, preferring instead simply to be truthful and say this is what *I* find works best for *me.* I'm happy to show you how I do things but you need to know that you may find my methods don't work for you and you may need to try something different. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 3 Oct 2006 at 22:31, Éric Dussault wrote: Le 06-10-02 à 22:01, David W. Fenton a écrit : How so? It is only a problem when Finale uses the wrong enharmonic spelling. If you hit a black key you get either a flat or a sharp, according to the enharmonic mapping in place for the key in question. Music really doesn't have to be complicated to mix sharps and flats. Maybe it is unusual in baroque and pre-baroque music, but in the music of Today, even tonal, it happens all the time. I have to correct enharmonics in the music I enter via MIDI, yes, of course. Is it slower to enter via MIDI and correct the enharmonics on a second pass than doing it all at once with the computer keyboard? Absolutely not! I correct enharmonic errors on the first editing pass, the same one where I do beaming and stem direction. It's not what I call a time-saving entry method if you have to correct it afterwards. My note entry in speedy with computer keyboard is always correct the first time I enter music. I dare to believe it saves me time. That's all, really. The two passes are faster than one pass with the computer keyboard. I've done it. For 6 years I had no MIDI keyboard, so I know that the MIDI keyboard is *much* faster for me. And entry by computer keyboard still takes other passes for entering articulations and expressions, so it's not like there's much of a difference there. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On Oct 4, 2006, at 11:44 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: And entry by computer keyboard still takes other passes for entering articulations and expressions, so it's not like there's much of a difference there. -- If, like me, you are still in the habit of using Speedy Entry. The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
David W. Fenton wrote: For 6 years I had no MIDI keyboard, so I know that the MIDI keyboard is *much* faster for me. The key qualification here is for me; other users, with different musical and data entry skills, as well as quite different musical projects, will necessarily have different results. For example, when I am simply copying a score into Finale, as opposed to composing with the program, I find that command line entry is my fastest choice, in spite of the command line plug-in being buried in the plug-in menu. DJW ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Yeah, me too But, if you can do articulations and dynamics.I might need to check it out... Chuck Israels wrote: If, like me, you are still in the habit of using Speedy Entry. The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? Chuck ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 4 Oct 2006 at 12:19, Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 4, 2006, at 11:44 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: And entry by computer keyboard still takes other passes for entering articulations and expressions, so it's not like there's much of a difference there. If, like me, you are still in the habit of using Speedy Entry. Well, I'm still on FinWin2K3, so I don't think I have the New Improved Simple Entry available to me. The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? I don't want to use the mouse when using the keyboard. Note entry is blazingly quick with a MIDI keyboard in Speedy. Even if I did it in the new Simple, I still wouldn't put in the articulations/expressions in the same pass, because that would require breaking the rhythm of entering the notes/rhythms (even if there are mouseless keyboard shortcuts mapped for articulations/expressions, which I strongly doubt). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On Oct 4, 2006, at 2:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 Oct 2006 at 22:31, Éric Dussault wrote: Le 06-10-02 à 22:01, David W. Fenton a écrit : How so? It is only a problem when Finale uses the wrong enharmonic spelling. If you hit a black key you get either a flat or a sharp, according to the enharmonic mapping in place for the key in question. Music really doesn't have to be complicated to mix sharps and flats. Maybe it is unusual in baroque and pre-baroque music, but in the music of Today, even tonal, it happens all the time. I have to correct enharmonics in the music I enter via MIDI, yes, of course. Is it slower to enter via MIDI and correct the enharmonics on a second pass than doing it all at once with the computer keyboard? Absolutely not! I correct enharmonic errors on the first editing pass, the same one where I do beaming and stem direction. It's not what I call a time-saving entry method if you have to correct it afterwards. My note entry in speedy with computer keyboard is always correct the first time I enter music. I dare to believe it saves me time. That's all, really. The two passes are faster than one pass with the computer keyboard. I've gotten to the point where I know what Finale is going to enter (sharp or flat) so I can hit 9 to enharmonically flip it without even looking, before entering the next note. I still make a second pass (for articulations and the like), but it DOES cut down on tool switching, which I find is my biggest slowdowner (made-up word!) So David, I would respectfully submit that it is possible for two people to use different work flow methods that are the fastest method for each of them. Saying that it is absolutely faster to switch enharmonics on the second pass rather than the first is not necessarily true. I do kind of wish that I had learned the new Speedy, though, as it sounds very quick for those who use it. Ten years of habit is hard to break, though. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 4 Oct 2006 at 21:28, Daniel Wolf wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: For 6 years I had no MIDI keyboard, so I know that the MIDI keyboard is *much* faster for me. The key qualification here is for me; I have never claimed otherwise. I was just responding to someone trying to convince me that it *wasn't* faster for *me*. other users, with different musical and data entry skills, as well as quite different musical projects, will necessarily have different results. For example, when I am simply copying a score into Finale, as opposed to composing with the program, I find that command line entry is my fastest choice, in spite of the command line plug-in being buried in the plug-in menu. The command-line plugin comes after the version of Finale I have, but I just tried it out in the Finale 2005 demo, which I have installed. I'm reminded of Score's input methods (though I don't have the online help to explain how to use it, so I haven't been very successful), which I always found unforgiving and obtuse. In Speedy with MIDI, I can hear what I've entered and tell immediately if it's correct, and I'm using musical means for the pitches. The command-line method requires translating musical information into Finale's code for it, and that extra step is a real problem for me (octave number is particularly problematic as far as I'm concerned -- I don't have that memorized and don't see musical utility in doing so). But again, each person has their own methods. The fact is, enharmonics do not slow me down in MIDI keyboard entry because the musical content requires multiple passes no matter what entry method you are using, unless you interrupt the flow of the method you are using, switching between keyboard and mouse. Perhaps some people can do that quickly, but I cannot. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:39 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? I don't want to use the mouse when using the keyboard. You don't have to. Articulations and expressions are entered via keyboard shortcuts which reference your own metatools. You would only have to touch the mouse if the articulation or expression you want is not assigned to a metatool. (even if there are mouseless keyboard shortcuts mapped for articulations/expressions, which I strongly doubt). Ahem. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 4 Oct 2006 at 15:45, Christopher Smith wrote: So David, I would respectfully submit that it is possible for two people to use different work flow methods that are the fastest method for each of them. Saying that it is absolutely faster to switch enharmonics on the second pass rather than the first is not necessarily true. I was intending an assumed for me in all that I wrote. Someone was trying to tell me that *for me* the enharmonics should be a problem, but my point is that it is not -- it isn't faster *for me* to use the computer keyboard, where the enharmonics can get corrected immediately. And, of course, I can correct the enharmonics while entering with the MIDI keyboard, too, since 9 is not a rhythmic value. I generally don't, because I breeze through in a rhythm about half that of actual performance, but for those who wouldn't want to miss them, you could easily do it on the spot if you know Finale's enharmonic mappings well enough. But, again, I didn't intend to say that it's faster for everyone. I was just objecting to the suggestion that enharmonic corrections made it slower *for me*, which is how I read the introduction of the issue. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
David W. Fenton wrote: On 4 Oct 2006 at 15:45, Christopher Smith wrote: So David, I would respectfully submit that it is possible for two people to use different work flow methods that are the fastest method for each of them. Saying that it is absolutely faster to switch enharmonics on the second pass rather than the first is not necessarily true. I was intending an assumed for me in all that I wrote. Someone was trying to tell me that *for me* the enharmonics should be a problem, but my point is that it is not -- it isn't faster *for me* to use the computer keyboard, where the enharmonics can get corrected immediately. And, of course, I can correct the enharmonics while entering with the MIDI keyboard, too, since 9 is not a rhythmic value. I generally don't, because I breeze through in a rhythm about half that of actual performance, but for those who wouldn't want to miss them, you could easily do it on the spot if you know Finale's enharmonic mappings well enough. But, again, I didn't intend to say that it's faster for everyone. I was just objecting to the suggestion that enharmonic corrections made it slower *for me*, which is how I read the introduction of the issue. I never got the impression that David Fenton was trying to tell anybody else what would be best for them. He was only trying to say what was fastest for him, which included flipping enharmonics. For what it's worth, David, I understood you to mean *for you* and weren't trying to tell everybody else what would work best for them. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:45 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I've gotten to the point where I know what Finale is going to enter (sharp or flat) so I can hit 9 to enharmonically flip it without even looking, before entering the next note. Chris, have you run into trouble with this in Finale 2007? I find that for the first time, it makes a difference whether a note was originally entered as a C# or a Db. If you enter (in Speedy) a C# (with Favor Sharps on) followed by a Db (with Favor Flats on), then flip the Db and tie the notes, the tie does not take -- it will not be recognized by playback, and the accidental on the second note must be hidden manually. Check Ties and Check Accidentals does not solve the problem. This is, to put it mildly, a bit of a productivity killer. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:39 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? I don't want to use the mouse when using the keyboard. You don't have to. Articulations and expressions are entered via keyboard shortcuts which reference your own metatools. You would only have to touch the mouse if the articulation or expression you want is not assigned to a metatool. (even if there are mouseless keyboard shortcuts mapped for articulations/expressions, which I strongly doubt). How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:22 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: How do you switch between expressions and articulations? On Mac, opt-A to add an expression (or cmd-opt-shift-A to add a sticky expression that will apply to all subsequent notes until cancelled). Opt-X (or just X) to add an expression. Also: Opt-C to change clef, opt-K to change key signature, opt-T to change time signature. Clef, key sig, and time sig metatools all supported. On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? The metatool applies to the note you just entered. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:39 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? I don't want to use the mouse when using the keyboard. You don't have to. Articulations and expressions are entered via keyboard shortcuts which reference your own metatools. You would only have to touch the mouse if the articulation or expression you want is not assigned to a metatool. (even if there are mouseless keyboard shortcuts mapped for articulations/expressions, which I strongly doubt). How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? Davids I don't know exactly how it's done, but there are keyboard triggers for going to articulations and dynamics and, since you do it on the note you are on as you enter it, there's no need for using the mouse. This is all in the documentation, and I have watched the MM guys do it. No kidding, it's fast. The only thing that keeps me from changing my method is old work habits and dreading a new learning curve. (No small dread, irrational as that may be.) This has been around for the last two years, at least. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
See! I told you guys. Darcy, are you using this now? Chuck On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:22 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: How do you switch between expressions and articulations? On Mac, opt-A to add an expression (or cmd-opt-shift-A to add a sticky expression that will apply to all subsequent notes until cancelled). Opt-X (or just X) to add an expression. Also: Opt-C to change clef, opt-K to change key signature, opt-T to change time signature. Clef, key sig, and time sig metatools all supported. On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? The metatool applies to the note you just entered. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:39 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it?And in fact the MM guys at the conventions say that the way they want you to use Finale now is via Simple Entry. They consider Speedy Entry to be a bit old fashioned.If I may be permitted to address the list without being thought a lurker only here to recruit for Sibelius (as was charged yesterday), I think I have some pertinent comments on this thread and will minimize Sibelius references as much as possible. When I first began to use Sib, I was a long time Finale user and, like almost everyone at the time, used Speedy Entry exclusively and (almost) always with a MIDI keyboard. At first I missed both Speedy Entry and scroll view. Then I found (with practice) how much faster I could work the Sib tools which are very like Simple Entry. I was very glad to see Simple Entry revamped in Fin04 and (although I am more comfortable in Sib) use it almost always. I frequently work on a laptop and almost always without a MIDI. I do tend to work in two passes (but not always) but that doesn't slow me down at all.While old, hard won and well practiced skills are hard to let go of, it's worth noting that Finale is now designed (according to MM reps) to be used primarily in Simple Entry. Richard Smith ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On Oct 4, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:45 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I've gotten to the point where I know what Finale is going to enter (sharp or flat) so I can hit 9 to enharmonically flip it without even looking, before entering the next note. Chris, have you run into trouble with this in Finale 2007? I find that for the first time, it makes a difference whether a note was originally entered as a C# or a Db. If you enter (in Speedy) a C# (with Favor Sharps on) followed by a Db (with Favor Flats on), then flip the Db and tie the notes, the tie does not take -- it will not be recognized by playback, and the accidental on the second note must be hidden manually. Check Ties and Check Accidentals does not solve the problem. This is, to put it mildly, a bit of a productivity killer. I have stopped using 2007, and reverted back to 2006 after completing the project I was on. There were too many inconsistencies in 2007 (including accidentals like the one you mentioned, though I never documented it as such) to make it worth my while. Plus, I couldn't get a workflow going with the linked parts, and it was taking me twice as long to do anything. I am looking forward, though, to using linked parts in the future. I have a LOT of projects where that would be SO useful! I did the same thing with 2004, never using it at all even though I paid for it, because it was just too frustrating with the half-baked features, new bugs and slow downs. Better luck next version, or maybe things will be fixed by incremental updates. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Hi Chuck, I haven't made the switch yet. I know I should, because it will eventually be faster, once I get over the learning curve. But I'm always on deadline and I never seem to have the time to re-train myself. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: See! I told you guys. Darcy, are you using this now? Chuck On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:22 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: How do you switch between expressions and articulations? On Mac, opt-A to add an expression (or cmd-opt-shift-A to add a sticky expression that will apply to all subsequent notes until cancelled). Opt-X (or just X) to add an expression. Also: Opt-C to change clef, opt-K to change key signature, opt-T to change time signature. Clef, key sig, and time sig metatools all supported. On 04 Oct 2006, at 4:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? The metatool applies to the note you just entered. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 4 Oct 2006 at 13:45, Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: On 04 Oct 2006, at 3:39 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: The MM guys I see every year at the Jazz Educator's Convention use Simple entry with a MIDI Keyboard, and that allows articulations and dynamics to be entered on the same pass with the same tool. They claim something like 40% increase in entry speed, and I have no reason to doubt them, but something in me resists re-learning my entry methods. Anyone else out there migrated from Speedy to Simple since this change? Have you found the changed method worth the trouble of learning it? I don't want to use the mouse when using the keyboard. You don't have to. Articulations and expressions are entered via keyboard shortcuts which reference your own metatools. You would only have to touch the mouse if the articulation or expression you want is not assigned to a metatool. (even if there are mouseless keyboard shortcuts mapped for articulations/expressions, which I strongly doubt). How do you tell Finale which notes to apply the metatool to if you're not using the mouse? I don't know exactly how it's done, but there are keyboard triggers for going to articulations and dynamics and, since you do it on the note you are on as you enter it, there's no need for using the mouse. This is all in the documentation, and I have watched the MM guys do it. No kidding, it's fast. The only thing that keeps me from changing my method is old work habits and dreading a new learning curve. (No small dread, irrational as that may be.) This has been around for the last two years, at least. I tried it out in the Finale 2005 demo. It feels a lot like Sibelius's standard keypad entry method. And that means I HATE IT. I don't think that way about getting the information into Finale, and that's one of the reasons I can't use Sibelius. It slows me down incredibly to think through which things I want to attach to a note after it's been entered (or before, if you can forecast that). For me (and I said FOR ME), a pass to get notes and rhythms entered is VERY FAST, and then I can go back and entered the articulations/expressions, set beam breaks, stem direction and correct enharmonics. I do all of the latter in a single pass, in fact. And that's the way I did it in Speedy with no MIDI keyboard. I just don't think in a way that allows me to be constantly switching between so many different kinds of entry. The notes and rhythms come first as a framework for the whole piece, and then the rest of the data is editing or entirely cosmetic. Perhaps I'm stuck in that mindset because I've been doing it that way for over 15 years. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] I tried it out in the Finale 2005 demo. It feels a lot like Sibelius's standard keypad entry method. And that means I HATE IT. I don't think that way about getting the information into Finale, and that's one of the reasons I can't use Sibelius. It slows me down incredibly to think through which things I want to attach to a note after it's been entered (or before, if you can forecast that). For me (and I said FOR ME), a pass to get notes and rhythms entered is VERY FAST, and then I can go back and entered the articulations/expressions, set beam breaks, stem direction and correct enharmonics. I do all of the latter in a single pass, in fact. And that's the way I did it in Speedy with no MIDI keyboard. I just don't think in a way that allows me to be constantly switching between so many different kinds of entry. The notes and rhythms come first as a framework for the whole piece, and then the rest of the data is editing or entirely cosmetic. Perhaps I'm stuck in that mindset because I've been doing it that way for over 15 years. I'm with you on this point David -- I find that I can fly through note entry and then go back and do the expressions and articulations on a second and third pass and can work very fast. Every time I have to change something while in the middle of the basic note entry, as has to happen in Simple Entry if one is trying to enter the articulations at the same time as the notes, it really slows my workflow down. What's terrific about Finale is that there are the two entry methods, simple and speedy. And speedy is what works best to my mind (for me, I'm not claiming it should be this way for anybody else) which is why I can't work quickly or efficiently in Sibelius. Just yesterday, my son was staying after school to help a young woman transpose an english horn part so she could play it on her oboe (octave displacement not being a consideration), and they were using the music department computer which has Sibelius on it. They managed to get the english horn part copied just as it was on the page and couldn't figure out how to get it changed for oboe. so they called me. Now in finale, just a couple of mouse clicks to change the key signature and have the notes transpose upward and they would have been all set in a couple of seconds. In sibelius, nowhere in the manual is there an entry for changing the key signature for music already entered. So I had to fly by the seat of my pants and triple-click to enclose the entire staff, then get three menu levels deep to the tranpose dialogue, and set things in there. took much longer. I realize that some of that was because I had to figure out how to do it without the help of the manual, but now that I know how to do it, it will still take much longer than using Finale's key signature tool. Why Finale felt they needed to make their note entry mimic Sibelius' is beyond me. But thank goodness they left speedy entry alone! Whether it's an ingrained pattern of workflow from using Finale for so long I can't tell, but I do know that it took me very little time to convert from MusicPrinterPlus to Finale and it's taken me ages to try to convert to Sibelius and I still can't do it, my mind just doesn't work that way. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
I find myself aligned with the two Davids - thinking about and entering the music more or less the way they describe as natural to them, but I can't tell if that's because Finale's Speedy Entry methods have trained me to be that way, or if Speedy just suits my way of operating. My jury will be out on the subject until I have spent some time trying out the other method. When I'll take time to do that is anybody's guess, but I will give it a try, because I've seen those MM guys (mostly Tom Johnson) fly with it. Chuck On Oct 4, 2006, at 2:43 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] I tried it out in the Finale 2005 demo. It feels a lot like Sibelius's standard keypad entry method. And that means I HATE IT. I don't think that way about getting the information into Finale, and that's one of the reasons I can't use Sibelius. It slows me down incredibly to think through which things I want to attach to a note after it's been entered (or before, if you can forecast that). For me (and I said FOR ME), a pass to get notes and rhythms entered is VERY FAST, and then I can go back and entered the articulations/expressions, set beam breaks, stem direction and correct enharmonics. I do all of the latter in a single pass, in fact. And that's the way I did it in Speedy with no MIDI keyboard. I just don't think in a way that allows me to be constantly switching between so many different kinds of entry. The notes and rhythms come first as a framework for the whole piece, and then the rest of the data is editing or entirely cosmetic. Perhaps I'm stuck in that mindset because I've been doing it that way for over 15 years. I'm with you on this point David -- I find that I can fly through note entry and then go back and do the expressions and articulations on a second and third pass and can work very fast. Every time I have to change something while in the middle of the basic note entry, as has to happen in Simple Entry if one is trying to enter the articulations at the same time as the notes, it really slows my workflow down. What's terrific about Finale is that there are the two entry methods, simple and speedy. And speedy is what works best to my mind (for me, I'm not claiming it should be this way for anybody else) which is why I can't work quickly or efficiently in Sibelius. Just yesterday, my son was staying after school to help a young woman transpose an english horn part so she could play it on her oboe (octave displacement not being a consideration), and they were using the music department computer which has Sibelius on it. They managed to get the english horn part copied just as it was on the page and couldn't figure out how to get it changed for oboe. so they called me. Now in finale, just a couple of mouse clicks to change the key signature and have the notes transpose upward and they would have been all set in a couple of seconds. In sibelius, nowhere in the manual is there an entry for changing the key signature for music already entered. So I had to fly by the seat of my pants and triple-click to enclose the entire staff, then get three menu levels deep to the tranpose dialogue, and set things in there. took much longer. I realize that some of that was because I had to figure out how to do it without the help of the manual, but now that I know how to do it, it will still take much longer than using Finale's key signature tool. Why Finale felt they needed to make their note entry mimic Sibelius' is beyond me. But thank goodness they left speedy entry alone! Whether it's an ingrained pattern of workflow from using Finale for so long I can't tell, but I do know that it took me very little time to convert from MusicPrinterPlus to Finale and it's taken me ages to try to convert to Sibelius and I still can't do it, my mind just doesn't work that way. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] I tried it out in the Finale 2005 demo. It feels a lot like Sibelius's standard keypad entry method. And that means I HATE IT. I don't think that way about getting the information into Finale, and that's one of the reasons I can't use Sibelius. It slows me down incredibly to think through which things I want to attach to a note after it's been entered (or before, if you can forecast that). For me (and I said FOR ME), a pass to get notes and rhythms entered is VERY FAST, and then I can go back and entered the articulations/expressions, set beam breaks, stem direction and correct enharmonics. I do all of the latter in a single pass, in fact. And that's the way I did it in Speedy with no MIDI keyboard. I just don't think in a way that allows me to be constantly switching between so many different kinds of entry. The notes and rhythms come first as a framework for the whole piece, and then the rest of the data is editing or entirely cosmetic. Perhaps I'm stuck in that mindset because I've been doing it that way for over 15 years. I'm with you on this point David -- I find that I can fly through note entry and then go back and do the expressions and articulations on a second and third pass and can work very fast. Every time I have to change something while in the middle of the basic note entry, as has to happen in Simple Entry if one is trying to enter the articulations at the same time as the notes, it really slows my workflow down. What's terrific about Finale is that there are the two entry methods, simple and speedy. And speedy is what works best to my mind (for me, I'm not claiming it should be this way for anybody else) which is why I can't work quickly or efficiently in Sibelius. Just yesterday, my son was staying after school to help a young woman transpose an english horn part so she could play it on her oboe (octave displacement not being a consideration), and they were using the music department computer which has Sibelius on it. They managed to get the english horn part copied just as it was on the page and couldn't figure out how to get it changed for oboe. so they called me. Now in finale, just a couple of mouse clicks to change the key signature and have the notes transpose upward and they would have been all set in a couple of seconds. In sibelius, nowhere in the manual is there an entry for changing the key signature for music already entered. So I had to fly by the seat of my pants and triple-click to enclose the entire staff, then get three menu levels deep to the tranpose dialogue, and set things in there. took much longer. I realize that some of that was because I had to figure out how to do it without the help of the manual, but now that I know how to do it, it will still take much longer than using Finale's key signature tool. Why Finale felt they needed to make their note entry mimic Sibelius' is beyond me. But thank goodness they left speedy entry alone! Whether it's an ingrained pattern of workflow from using Finale for so long I can't tell, but I do know that it took me very little time to convert from MusicPrinterPlus to Finale and it's taken me ages to try to convert to Sibelius and I still can't do it, my mind just doesn't work that way. Well said, David(s). I think this has much to do with how one thinks and prefers to work with music. I have said for some time that Sibelius thinks like I do. You guys obviously have the same response to Finale (and Speedy Entry). Why change? The software or the method is not the goal, just the tool. For whatever it's worth, David B., I agree that Finale's transposition method is more direct which is a mild annoyance for me. I often just do the transposition the old fashioned way, transpose the interval and change the key. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Le 06-10-02 à 22:01, David W. Fenton a écrit :How so? It is only a problem when Finale uses the wrong enharmonic spelling. If you hit a black key you get either a flat or a sharp, according to the enharmonic mapping in place for the key in question.Music really doesn't have to be complicated to mix sharps and flats. Maybe it is unusual in baroque and pre-baroque music, but in the music of Today, even tonal, it happens all the time. I correct enharmonic errors on the first editing pass, the same one where I do beaming and stem direction. It's not what I call a time-saving entry method if you have to correct it afterwards. My note entry in speedy with computer keyboard is always correct the first time I enter music. I dare to believe it saves me time. That's all, really.___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 02.10.2006 Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. Unless this is something specific to FinWin it is simply not true. Although Speedy entry without a MIDI device is not exactly very efficient, it is certainly possible to enter notes and chords. If only rests appear then the MIDI input has to be switched off in the Speedy menu, ie Use MIDI device for input has to be unchecked in the Speedy menu. Make sure capslock is off. However, if you intend on entering music permanently without a MIDI device Simple may well turn out to be more efficient. You should select the laptop keyboard layout in the simple menu Simple Entry Options- Edit Keyboard shortcuts. On the long run, if you want to enter music speedily, consider buying a MIDI or USB keyboard, it will make your life much easier. As Noel suggested, I would also buy a separate number keypad. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
I wrote: Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. prompting Johannes Gebuaer to respond: Unless this is something specific to FinWin it is simply not true. Although Speedy entry without a MIDI device is not exactly very efficient, it is certainly possible to enter notes and chords. It is not specific to FInWin; and I goofed again. I should have thought more about the answer before I wrote it since Johannes' comment reminds me that I do not always use the midi keyboard when I use speedy entry to correct errors I find. These procedures, can be used to enter notes in speedy without a MIDI controller. The general procedure is 1) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. Repeat the above steps for each layer. On my [desktop] system, I am able to enter notes in Speedy using the above method, without regard to whether Use MIDI device for input is checked or not. However, if using the numbers on the top row, no rest is generated by pressing a number key if the capslock key is active. I will observe, that with regards to capslock, that I recall on at least two of the laptops I owned, that when the Fn key was used to activate the embedded numeric keypad, that this over-rode the function of the capslock key. I can't verify this; the laptops on which I think this behavior was as described have both failed, the most recent one over the summer. I have not yet used my laptop much with Finale, and cannot say for sure whether this is the behavior or not. This may be dependent upon the internal design of the laptop, and I do not mean to suggest that although my laptops acted this way, that any others do. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 02.10.2006 Noel Stoutenburg wrote: 1) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. Noel, this is completely unnecessary. You can enter notes easily in Speedy by placing the entry cursor on the correct pitch and typing the number key. There is no need to enter any rests first. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Will Denayer wrote: Hello Dennis, Chuck, David, Noel and others, Thank you for all the good advice. I said earlier that I unable to use the speed entry tool. Someone told me to put Midi off, as otherwise I would only be able to enter rests. Actually, I couldn't enter anything (notes nor rests). Following this advice, I put Midi off and now I can at least enter rests using the numbers which are above my keyboard (for example, 4 is a quarter rest, 5 is a half rest ...), so we are making steady progress. However, I can still not enter any notes. Perhaps it is not possible to use speed entry on a notebook, although I think that I read somewhere a while ago that there has to be a function somewhere in Windows that lets you work on a regular notepad keyboard as if it were a keyboard for a desktop; I think - but am not sure - that n m , correspond to 1, 2 3 and u i o to 8 9 0 if this function is turned on. I might be wrong about this though. Does anyone know about this? Why can I not enter notes? Best regards, Will I enter notes on my notebook all the time -- use the top line numbers for the note/rest values, use the cursor arrows to move the cursor up/down, left/right, and it works like a charm. In the Speedy Entry menu, be sure Use Midi Device For Input is UNchecked. Do NOT try to use the embedded numeric keypad -- use the top-row keys. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 07:40 PM 10/1/06 -0500, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. In my opinion, the use of a MIDI input device, and, on a laptop, a standalone numeric keypad just cannot be emphasized too strongly. Yes one can use Finale without it; but the productivity gains of each make each one well worthwhile. There's no hard rule. I have never used a Midi keyboard (I don't play keyboard) nor Hyperscribe, and exclusively use Speedy entry. Perhaps being a touch-typist and having used Finale for over 13 years accounts for my speed, but in terms of productivity, I'm doggone fast. :) But I certainly couldn't work without a numeric keyboard add-on with the laptop. Dennis I'm with Dennis on this with one exception -- I never use the numeric keypad keys except for + and - keys. I exclusively use the top-row number keys with my left hand to select the note values and use the cursor arrow keys with my right hand to place the cursor where I want. So when I work on my notebook the only change I have to make is to use the - and + keys on the top-row keys. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 02.10.2006 Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. Unless this is something specific to FinWin it is simply not true. Although Speedy entry without a MIDI device is not exactly very efficient, it is certainly possible to enter notes and chords. If only rests appear then the MIDI input has to be switched off in the Speedy menu, ie Use MIDI device for input has to be unchecked in the Speedy menu. Make sure capslock is off. However, if you intend on entering music permanently without a MIDI device Simple may well turn out to be more efficient. You should select the laptop keyboard layout in the simple menu Simple Entry Options- Edit Keyboard shortcuts. On the long run, if you want to enter music speedily, consider buying a MIDI or USB keyboard, it will make your life much easier. As Noel suggested, I would also buy a separate number keypad. Johannes While I have great respect for Johannes and his Finale knowledge, I simply have to disagree with him on this point. What he says is true for him, but not necessarily true for everybody. I can enter music far more efficiently and accurately using Speedy Entry and my computer and NOT using a midi keyboard, than I ever can using my midi keyboard. His statements are only true for people who practice to make it work or who have excellent keyboard chops. I don't. I've been using speedy entry and just the computer keyboard since I started using Finale and I can enter the music extremely quickly this way. Simple entry is definitely NOT easier/faster for me. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Johannes Gebauer wrote: Noel, this is completely unnecessary. The older I get, the harder it is to meet my goal of learning something new each day. I never knew that one can enter notes easily in Speedy by placing the entry cursor on the correct pitch and typing the number key. There is no need to enter any rests first. I bought Finale and my MIDI keyboard at the same time (in fact on the same transaction from the same vendor) , and I've never seriously tried to use one without the other, beyond some work to find out how speedy worked. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. NOT NECESSARY. I just entered 75+ or so pages with my notebook computer using speedy and no MIDI kbd. There is NO need to pre-enter rests. Just slide the entry cursor up or down to the desired note and hit the REGULAR NUMBER for the duration. NO NEED for separate numeric keypad. NO NEED for fn-alt-ctrl-shift ANYTHING. And I can do it speedily. Perhaps not as quickly as other techniques, but fast enough to suit me, and I can do it in the car if someone else is driving. ;-) ) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. NOT NECESSARY. I just entered 75+ or so pages with my notebook computer using speedy and no MIDI kbd. There is NO need to pre-enter rests. Just slide the entry cursor up or down to the desired note and hit the REGULAR NUMBER for the duration. NO NEED for separate numeric keypad. NO NEED for fn-alt-ctrl-shift ANYTHING. And I can do it speedily. Perhaps not as quickly as other techniques, but fast enough to suit me, and I can do it in the car if someone else is driving. ;-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
And BTW: f and s work for flat and sharp in Speedy w/out MIDI kbd. (NOT capital F or capital S, though) They even work retroactively. That is, if you have the speedy frame set to advance to the next measure, Finale is smart enough to put the flat or sharp on the last note of the previous measure...just don't enter any notes in the new measure before hitting f or s. Same for a tie...works retroactively. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Williams, Jim Sent: Mon 02-Oct-06 6:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook ) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. NOT NECESSARY. I just entered 75+ or so pages with my notebook computer using speedy and no MIDI kbd. There is NO need to pre-enter rests. Just slide the entry cursor up or down to the desired note and hit the REGULAR NUMBER for the duration. NO NEED for separate numeric keypad. NO NEED for fn-alt-ctrl-shift ANYTHING. And I can do it speedily. Perhaps not as quickly as other techniques, but fast enough to suit me, and I can do it in the car if someone else is driving. ;-) And BTW: f and s work for flat and sharp in Speedy w/out MIDI kbd. (NOT capital F or capital S, though) They even work retroactively. That is, if you have the speedy frame set to advance to the next measure, Finale is smart enough to put the flat or sharp on the last note of the previous measure...just don't enter any notes in the new measure before hitting f or s. Same for a tie...works retroactively. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Williams, Jim Sent: Mon 02-Oct-06 6:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook ) fill the measure with rests representing the rhythmic pattern of the music you wish to enter, using numeric keys, either on the keypad, or on the top row of the regular keyboard; 2) place the speedy entry cursor upon each rest in succession, and use the up / down arrows to specify the pitch(es) to be assigned where each rest holds the place, and press the enter key. NOT NECESSARY. I just entered 75+ or so pages with my notebook computer using speedy and no MIDI kbd. There is NO need to pre-enter rests. Just slide the entry cursor up or down to the desired note and hit the REGULAR NUMBER for the duration. NO NEED for separate numeric keypad. NO NEED for fn-alt-ctrl-shift ANYTHING. And I can do it speedily. Perhaps not as quickly as other techniques, but fast enough to suit me, and I can do it in the car if someone else is driving. ;-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Friends, where I wrote: I've never seriously tried to use one without the other, beyond some work to find out how speedy worked. I meant to write I've never seriously tried to use one without the other, beyond some work to find out how _simple entry_ worked. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 02.10.2006 dhbailey wrote: His statements are only true for people who practice to make it work or who have excellent keyboard chops. I don't. Actually, I am a very poor keyboardist. I respect your decision to not use a MIDI keyboard, however, on the long run I do believe the overall note entry speed without a keyboard can never match the speed with a keyboard, at least after, and I agree on this, some practice, but regardless of any keyboard skills. All you need to do is press one key at the time, with no rhythm or timeframe. That, imho, has nothing to do with keyboard skills. Anyone can learn to do this, and just from a purely physical point of view it can be faster than Speedy with cursor keys can ever be. However, things are dramatically different if you primarily work with non-tonal music, complicated modern/avantgarde keyboard writing (Speedy is never good at this) or similar very idiomatic styles. I regularly revert to Speedy or Simple without a keyboard to do this. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
At 06:11 AM 10/2/06 -0400, dhbailey wrote: In the Speedy Entry menu, be sure Use Midi Device For Input is UNchecked. Do NOT try to use the embedded numeric keypad -- use the top-row keys. In terms of touch-typing, this is slower because of the reach and the two hands having to be overtop each other. I still disagree with Johannes on speed. The excellent organization of the keyboard in Speedy entry seems to be overlooked. The entire keyboard usage is shifted right from normal touch typing, so that without touching anything but the keys with two hands, music can be entered quickly in Speedy without ever touching the mouse. (Some keyboards make this less convenient, especially laptops with the arrows placed at the top rather the bottom, but it's a relatively small adjustment if you use the machine often.) My machines are set up with rapid autorepeat and a very brief pause before autorepeat kicks in, so moving through measures and up and down and across staves is faster than grabbing for a mouse. When David Bailey says he uses F and S for flat and sharp, that means his had would have to move back left, obviating the Speedy key clusters -- none of whose typical actions require moving left of the letter O. Considering how awkward so much of the Finale UI can be, this keyboard design was brilliant. Since I don't use Simple, I'm not sure if Simple is a faster keyboard-only entry method. But anything that makes me reach for the mouse or off-keyboard device, especially a giant Midi keyboard (which I have but never use), slows me down. I'm not saying Speedy is preferable for anybody but me, but I know the Finale keyboard layout so well that I don't even have to look at the screen as I work (particularly with the added confirmation of pitches sounding when I enter notes). Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ My blog: http://maltedmedia.com/bathory/waam-blog.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 06:11 AM 10/2/06 -0400, dhbailey wrote: In the Speedy Entry menu, be sure Use Midi Device For Input is UNchecked. Do NOT try to use the embedded numeric keypad -- use the top-row keys. In terms of touch-typing, this is slower because of the reach and the two hands having to be overtop each other. Say what? My left hand is on the top row number keys and my right hand is on the cursor arrows, not overtop of each other. [snip] -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
dhbailey / 2006/10/02 / 06:38 AM wrote: Simple entry is definitely NOT easier/faster for me. I am the same way. What Simple bugs me is that you have to place your mouse pointer to the exact pitch, which isn't easy with high res monitor. Speedy gives me no such hassle :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 02.10.2006 A-NO-NE Music wrote: I am the same way. What Simple bugs me is that you have to place your mouse pointer to the exact pitch, which isn't easy with high res monitor. Speedy gives me no such hassle :-) Nor does Simple, type A and you will get an A. Simple has changed dramatically over the years, and although I seldomly use it, I have to admit that it can be quite fast and efficient, especially as one can enter articulations and expressions while entering the music. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 2 Oct 2006 at 15:23, dc wrote: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz écrit: I'm not saying Speedy is preferable for anybody but me, but I know the Finale keyboard layout so well that I don't even have to look at the screen as I work (particularly with the added confirmation of pitches sounding when I enter notes). I agree with Dennis. I'm a keyboard player and a fast typist, and I own a MIDI keyboard purchased spefically for use in Finale. But Speedy entry with the numeric keypad is for me the fastest way of entering music (unless I can use Hyperscribe, which allows me to practice my C-clefs at the same time, and which is even faster). I look only at my source, and count on the sound feedback to spot wrong notes, and Finale's error beep for wrong rhythms. That being said, the entry of the music itself represents only a small portion of the work, timewise. I'm a fast touch typist, a keyboardist with an undergraduate degree in piano performance from a famous conservatory and a computer professional. I find it far, far easier to enter large amounts of music with a MIDI keyboard than from the computer keyboard. The shortcuts laid out on the keyboard for notes don't make any sense to me, so I have never learned them. Why bother when I can use the keyboard layout that is ingrained in my muscles from decades of playing the piano? The equation may be different for different people, but I don't see the utility in learning the insanely arbitrary keyboard shortcuts, unless one has no possibility of ever using a MIDI keyboard for input. And I long ago concluded that Hyperscribe was utterly useless. I have top-notch keyboard skills, but it takes way to much time to clean up the transcription errors that come from the limits of human perception that are much less precise than those of a computer. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Johannes Gebauer / 2006/10/02 / 01:29 PM wrote: Nor does Simple, type A and you will get an A. Woa. Didn't know, didn't know. This thread was very beneficial to me :-) Thanks. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
David W. Fenton wrote: On 2 Oct 2006 at 15:23, dc wrote: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz écrit: I'm not saying Speedy is preferable for anybody but me, but I know the Finale keyboard layout so well that I don't even have to look at the screen as I work (particularly with the added confirmation of pitches sounding when I enter notes). I agree with Dennis. I'm a keyboard player and a fast typist, and I own a MIDI keyboard purchased spefically for use in Finale. But Speedy entry with the numeric keypad is for me the fastest way of entering music (unless I can use Hyperscribe, which allows me to practice my C-clefs at the same time, and which is even faster). I look only at my source, and count on the sound feedback to spot wrong notes, and Finale's error beep for wrong rhythms. That being said, the entry of the music itself represents only a small portion of the work, timewise. I'm a fast touch typist, a keyboardist with an undergraduate degree in piano performance from a famous conservatory and a computer professional. I find it far, far easier to enter large amounts of music with a MIDI keyboard than from the computer keyboard. The shortcuts laid out on the keyboard for notes don't make any sense to me, so I have never learned them. Why bother when I can use the keyboard layout that is ingrained in my muscles from decades of playing the piano? The equation may be different for different people, but I don't see the utility in learning the insanely arbitrary keyboard shortcuts, unless one has no possibility of ever using a MIDI keyboard for input. And I long ago concluded that Hyperscribe was utterly useless. I have top-notch keyboard skills, but it takes way to much time to clean up the transcription errors that come from the limits of human perception that are much less precise than those of a computer. I agree that hyperscribe is utterly useless. One doesn't have to use the keyboard shortcuts for the pitches to use only the computer keyboard for speedy entry. Use the cursor keys to position the cursor and the number keys to place the proper value note. Extremely simple and I find it far easier than moving my left hand around on a midi keyboard, for which I am constantly having to take my eyes off the original manuscript or the monitor when the music has larger leaps. I'm sure if I practiced that I could get better at it, but this way I work the same way on my desktop computer which has a midi keyboard connected to it as when I'm working on my notebook without a midi keyboard. And I don't use those silly shortcuts for the pitches. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
At 02:03 PM 10/2/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: The equation may be different for different people, but I don't see the utility in learning the insanely arbitrary keyboard shortcuts, unless one has no possibility of ever using a MIDI keyboard for input. Yeah, Midi keyboards are especially good for quarter-tones. :) Seriously, though, the computer keyboard shortcuts don't seem arbitrary to me, though. They're all mnemonics for me, even if they weren't intended as such. / cut (break) beam toggle, ' launch the little voice (voice 2), P parenthesis, L lift flip stem toggle, O do not enter (hide note), ; demure (grace) note , + sharpen, - flatten, BKSP back over squash silent (turn into rest), * sticky-splat the note toggle. Arrows/shift-arrows, insert, delete all do their stuff. But as I said, it's been years of doing it, and it's mostly physical memory. I have no physical memory on a musical keyboard, in part because of aphasia (I was denied my college degree because there were no disability laws in 1970 and I couldn't work the piano keyboard). Because entry and editing are basically identical in Speedy, I need to learn only one set of actions to function quickly. If Speedy suddenly disappeared, I'd have to learn most of what I use in Finale over. It's the only entry/edit method I've ever used. So ya learn what ya learn make it work. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ My blog: http://maltedmedia.com/bathory/waam-blog.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 2 Oct 2006 at 14:30, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 2 Oct 2006 at 15:23, dc wrote: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz écrit: I'm not saying Speedy is preferable for anybody but me, but I know the Finale keyboard layout so well that I don't even have to look at the screen as I work (particularly with the added confirmation of pitches sounding when I enter notes). I agree with Dennis. I'm a keyboard player and a fast typist, and I own a MIDI keyboard purchased spefically for use in Finale. But Speedy entry with the numeric keypad is for me the fastest way of entering music (unless I can use Hyperscribe, which allows me to practice my C-clefs at the same time, and which is even faster). I look only at my source, and count on the sound feedback to spot wrong notes, and Finale's error beep for wrong rhythms. That being said, the entry of the music itself represents only a small portion of the work, timewise. I'm a fast touch typist, a keyboardist with an undergraduate degree in piano performance from a famous conservatory and a computer professional. I find it far, far easier to enter large amounts of music with a MIDI keyboard than from the computer keyboard. The shortcuts laid out on the keyboard for notes don't make any sense to me, so I have never learned them. Why bother when I can use the keyboard layout that is ingrained in my muscles from decades of playing the piano? The equation may be different for different people, but I don't see the utility in learning the insanely arbitrary keyboard shortcuts, unless one has no possibility of ever using a MIDI keyboard for input. And I long ago concluded that Hyperscribe was utterly useless. I have top-notch keyboard skills, but it takes way to much time to clean up the transcription errors that come from the limits of human perception that are much less precise than those of a computer. I agree that hyperscribe is utterly useless. One doesn't have to use the keyboard shortcuts for the pitches to use only the computer keyboard for speedy entry. Use the cursor keys to position the cursor and the number keys to place the proper value note. That means 3 up arrows to go up a fourth, 7 an octave, and so forth. Yes, that's the method I use, and it's an order of magnitude slower than input with a keyboard. Extremely simple and I find it far easier than moving my left hand around on a midi keyboard, You need a better setup. I have the MIDI keyboard on the desk with the computer keyboard on top of it. I use right or left hand for MIDI keyboard or for computer keyboard, depending on range. The music I'm copying is on the music rack of the MIDI keyboard, to the left, with the computer monitor visible through the left part of the music rack (which is transparent). This means I can see everything just by moving my head. Obviously, I've got the keyboard sense to follow the original source and the monitor and not need to look at my hands too often, but if you used the numeric pad on the computer keyboard, you might find it easier to input the rhythms. I sometimes switch back and forth between the numbers at the top of the keyboard and the numeric pad, depending on which hand I'm using for rhythm and which for the MIDI keyboard. But I can do all of that by sense without needing to look, because of my background, I guess. But it also wouldn't be possible without the layout I've set up for music entry. for which I am constantly having to take my eyes off the original manuscript or the monitor when the music has larger leaps. I'm sure if I practiced that I could get better at it, but this way I work the same way on my desktop computer which has a midi keyboard connected to it as when I'm working on my notebook without a midi keyboard. And I don't use those silly shortcuts for the pitches. Well, then I don't see how you can do things as quickly as with MIDI entry, even if you don't have the inherent keyboard skills to place your hands without looking. Obviously, it works for you, which is what matters, but -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 2 Oct 2006 at 14:37, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 02:03 PM 10/2/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: The equation may be different for different people, but I don't see the utility in learning the insanely arbitrary keyboard shortcuts, unless one has no possibility of ever using a MIDI keyboard for input. Yeah, Midi keyboards are especially good for quarter-tones. :) Well, that's different! Seriously, though, the computer keyboard shortcuts don't seem arbitrary to me, though. I meant the keyboard shortcuts for notes, not for all the things you mention, which I use all the time (since there's no way to do any of those things on a MIDI keyboard). They're all mnemonics for me, even if they weren't intended as such. / cut (break) beam toggle, ' launch the little voice (voice 2), P parenthesis, L lift flip stem toggle, O do not enter (hide note), ; demure (grace) note , + sharpen, - flatten, BKSP back over squash silent (turn into rest), * sticky-splat the note toggle. I know all of these shortcuts, but mostly don't use any of the cosmetic ones until the second pass (i.e., I don't do anything about breaking beams or stem direction until the second pass). Arrows/shift-arrows, Navigating up and down the staff with the arrow keys is so incredibly slow that I couldn't imagine that was the method anyone claiming any speed was actually using. I assumed they were using the pitch shortcuts, which in Speedy are pretty nonsensical (i.e., there is no mapping to actual note names, just an octave for each row of the keyboard). insert, delete all do their stuff. But as I said, it's been years of doing it, and it's mostly physical memory. I have no physical memory on a musical keyboard, in part because of aphasia (I was denied my college degree because there were no disability laws in 1970 and I couldn't work the piano keyboard). I used Finale for 6 years without a MIDI keyboard, so I know all these shortcuts very, very well, and also have plenty of experience entering substantial amounts of music with these methods (Finale didn't add the pitch shortcuts until after I'd gotten a MIDI keyboard). I can put in music many times more quickly with a MIDI keyboard than I ever did without it. Because entry and editing are basically identical in Speedy, I need to learn only one set of actions to function quickly. If Speedy suddenly disappeared, I'd have to learn most of what I use in Finale over. It's the only entry/edit method I've ever used. Since my work is all putting parts into Finale that already exist in order to make scores, the MIDI keyboard is much faster. And editing is a second step after the entry of notes and rhythms. For my composing/arranging, I use a combination of MIDI keyboard and computer keyboard, about half and half. This may be the difference, that the people who find the MIDI keyboard faster are working from complete sources and inputting them into Finale, and those working fast with the computer keyboard are creating music on the fly, with no significant pre-existing source to copy from. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
At 03:06 PM 10/2/2006, David W. Fenton wrote: speed was actually using. I assumed they were using the pitch shortcuts, which in Speedy are pretty nonsensical (i.e., there is no mapping to actual note names, just an octave for each row of the keyboard). That's only nonsensical if you're trying to mentally map the letter on the keyboard to the note name. But if you just think of it as three stacked white-key scales, it makes lots of sense. This is the method I use, and I'm very fast with it. This may be the difference, that the people who find the MIDI keyboard faster are working from complete sources and inputting them into Finale, and those working fast with the computer keyboard are creating music on the fly, with no significant pre-existing source to copy from. Speaking for myself, I'm usually working from existing sources, and I use the computer keyboard. As has been said before, one of the strengths of Finale is that it allows so many different methods, and individuals can find what works best for them. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that my way is better, but I know for a fact it's better for me. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
At 03:06 PM 10/2/06 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: Navigating up and down the staff with the arrow keys is so incredibly slow that I couldn't imagine that was the method anyone claiming any speed was actually using. I mentioned that autorepeat is set to max and delay to min. I can 'feel' exactly when it arrives at the spot without looking, and I can keep composing straight to the draft (or looking at the score). It really is fast in total. I have absolutely no productivity or deadline problems with myself or customers. There's no physical distraction -- which I definitely would have, as my hunt and peck is with musical keyboards. I don't map score pitches to musical keyboard fingers, especially more than one at a time. Try changing the keyboard octave span to 8 inches, putting your keyboard backwards, and looking in a mirror to play it. That might give you an idea of what it is for me. Alien. :) Denis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Le 06-10-02 à 09:09, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz a écrit :In terms of touch-typing, this is slower because of the reach and the two hands having to be overtop each other. I still disagree with Johannes on speed. The excellent organization of the keyboard in Speedy entry seems to be overlooked. The entire keyboard usage is shifted right from normal touch typing, so that without touching anything but the keys with two hands, music can be entered quickly in Speedy without ever touching the mouse. I agree with David and Dennis on the fact that using the computer keyboard is faster and better designed to use the functionality keystrokes of Finale. Am I overlooking something or does midi keyboard input in Speedy require to go back and shift flat and sharp notes (black keys of the keyboard). It looks to me that it slows things down quite a lot. At worst I would say that computer keyboard is not slower than midi keyboard. But that's the wonderful thing about Finale that makes it superior in term of input over the competition: many different entry methods will still get good results.The other Eric___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
On 2 Oct 2006 at 20:45, Éric Dussault wrote: Am I overlooking something or does midi keyboard input in Speedy require to go back and shift flat and sharp notes (black keys of the keyboard). It looks to me that it slows things down quite a lot. How so? It is only a problem when Finale uses the wrong enharmonic spelling. If you hit a black key you get either a flat or a sharp, according to the enharmonic mapping in place for the key in question. I correct enharmonic errors on the first editing pass, the same one where I do beaming and stem direction. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Will Denayer wrote: I can still not enter any notes. Perhaps it is not possible to use speed entry on a notebook, although I think that I read somewhere a while ago that there has to be a function somewhere in Windows that lets you work on a regular notepad keyboard as if it were a keyboard for a desktop; On the laptops with which I am personally familiar, one can activate a faux numeric keypad on the regular keyboard. A close examination of my laptop keyboard shows that the character * is mapped to the 0 key; that 4, 5, 6, and - are mapped to the keys U, I, O, P; that 1, 2, 3, and + are mapped to the keys J, K, L, ; ; and that 0 is mapped to M. The numerals on my machine are printed in a light blue ink, and this faux numeric keypad is activated by pressing the function key [Fn], located on my machine, adjacent to the ctrl and alt keys. On my machine, in addition to activating the numeric keypad, the Fn key also changes the functions of other keys, too. When the Fn key is engaged, one pair of function keys controls the brightness of the display, another adjusts contrast, another set of keys activates playback controls for CD's and DVD's, c. My understanding is that this is a function of hardware design, so that if one were to install LINUX on the laptop in lieu of windows, the keyboard mapping would still be the same. Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. In my opinion, the use of a MIDI input device, and, on a laptop, a standalone numeric keypad just cannot be emphasized too strongly. Yes one can use Finale without it; but the productivity gains of each make each one well worthwhile. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
At 07:40 PM 10/1/06 -0500, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Turning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry and hyperscribe, including the entry of notes and chords. In my opinion, the use of a MIDI input device, and, on a laptop, a standalone numeric keypad just cannot be emphasized too strongly. Yes one can use Finale without it; but the productivity gains of each make each one well worthwhile. There's no hard rule. I have never used a Midi keyboard (I don't play keyboard) nor Hyperscribe, and exclusively use Speedy entry. Perhaps being a touch-typist and having used Finale for over 13 years accounts for my speed, but in terms of productivity, I'm doggone fast. :) But I certainly couldn't work without a numeric keyboard add-on with the laptop. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ My blog: http://maltedmedia.com/bathory/waam-blog.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Speed entry on a notebook
Per NSTurning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry Sorry to disagree, but I disagree as far as speedy goes. Dr. Will: To use speedy without a MIDI keyboard, first ensure that Use MIDI keyboard is turned off in the Speedy menu. In the speedy entry frame you will notice an insertion cursor. You can move it up and down with the arrow keys. To enter the C above middle C into a treble staff using speedy, just run the insertion cursor up to the space for the C and use the REGULAR numbers to set the duration 5=quarter, 4=eighth, etc. Works like a charm no need for convoluted alt-fn-ctrl-shift anything. I just finishing entering 75 pages of music--speedily--on a notebook using this method. Try it out! Jim Per NSTurning to your point about not being able to enter notes in Speedy entry, a MIDI controller (it need not necessarily be a keyboard, thought this may be most convenient), while useful in simple entry in 2k7, is _required_ to be able to access most of the features of speedy entry Sorry to disagree, but I disagree as far as speedy goes. Dr. Will: To use speedy without a MIDI keyboard, first ensure that Use MIDI keyboard is turned off in the Speedy menu. In the speedy entry frame you will notice an insertion cursor. You can move it up and down with the arrow keys. To enter the C above middle C into a treble staff using speedy, just run the insertion cursor up to the space for the C and use the REGULAR numbers to set the duration 5=quarter, 4=eighth, etc. Works like a charm no need for convoluted alt-fn-ctrl-shift anything. I just finishing entering 75 pages of music--speedily--on a notebook using this method. Try it out! Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
