Re: question for the list
This message is from: Vic Faeo [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just saw this question about diarrhea, and was hoping that Jean had helped out. The horse she is talking about is Einar, my 6yo Fjord gelding. And, yes, he had very similar symptoms to the horse you are asking about, Debby. He had vet tests and meds etc., just like you described, and he always checked out just fine. When I bought him and fed him what the breeders were feeding him, timothy, he began to have diarrhea for weeks, although it took about a month to start. So that made it confusing. But as soon as I changed his hay to Alaska brome, he never had diarrhea again - for a whole year. The next spring when local brome was no longer availalbe, I started giving him Washington orchard grass and still no diarrhea at all. But then I took him to a friend's stable for a month this June for training. And even though he was still eating my orchard frass hay he began to get diarrhea again. He was getting a little timothy from the horse in the next paddock, tho, and his trainer was scareing him, too, a little, I think, so I think it was mostly just stress. As soon as I got him home in July (and of course still feed him either orchard or brome) he has been completely fine again. Completely. I did give him a month of Fast Track when I first bought him 1.5 years ago, and while I was swithing him to brome. I did that just to make sure his gut had all that it needed. But I've never given it to him again. So it sounds like your gelding might just need a new hay. And prehaps less stress too? Just as an aside - I use clicker training when I work with Einar myself, and it works like magic! I think horses prefer a yes communication to a no communication. It doesn't cause stress or confusion, and they absolutely love it. I have both of Alexandra's main books. Vic This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] My friends had a Fjord they raised, had loose stool problems from babyhood, they thought the mare's milk was too rich, then thought it was worms, finally decided it was the Timothy hay: on Brome hay, no problem, but with Timothy he got loose stools again, even with his new owner, when she got a supply of Timothy hay, he got loose stools again. Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: Tanya Manser [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a Fjord that scours when fed lower fibre forage (like grass or rich haylage). In fact about two weeks ago she had a nasty bout of Azoturia which we are attributing to a particular big bale of haylage. I have found that by increasing the dry matter fibre she gets really helps the situation. Over here in the UK we have a chaff called Hi-Fi Lite http://www.dengie.com/pages/products/fibre-feed/hi-fi-lite.php . It is dried alfalfa/lucerne and straw, 40% fibre and very low sugar - presumably you have something similar there? I have found that feeding her significant quantities of this keeps enough fibre in her diet to get her gut working healthily. Good luck with your Fjord! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is another good product out there for horses and dogs, Diarsynal. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Question for the list
This message is from: Big Horn Forge Daniel Nauman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patti Jo, First, I am not a Vet OR a Doctor, but I just read of this same condition in a person. Believe it or not, it was constipation! The diarrhea was an overflow (around the hard stool in the intestine). The person was put on laxatives until the stool was passed. (About a week) A lot of water had to be consumed also. Bowel movements returned to normal after that. Have a Vet thoroughly examine this horse before doing anything. The hard spot on his left side gives me pause. Sounds like an impaction. We've all had our bouts with colic. Please let us all know what the ailment was, and how the horse is doing. Good Luck. Toni The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patti Jo - Just of the top of my head...Question ? Is the hay they are feeding from the same field, supplier and is it consistent in quality? What about the water supply? Some horses are more sensitive to feed change than others... he just may be one of them. We have one here that gets soft if we pull him from pasture and stall him and he only gets hay verses pasture and hay combination. It will clear up after a week or so... He also will get soft when we go from one field of hay cutting to another... even though the hay quality is the same (protein counts), the slight difference in texture can set him off. Great question... I cannot wait to see what others may think. Catherine Lassesen Hestehaven - The Horse Garden Hundehaven - The Dog Heaven www.hestehaven.com / [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-541-825-3027 Southern Oregon The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think colon problems could be like that. I had a horse with right dorsal colitis. The solution was pellets, fed eight times a day, in small quantity. My neighbor has a horse they suspect has colon ulcers. He is ouchy around his flank area, crabby, and moves poorly. Gail Anyone ever have anything like this go on with a horse? Rue, is a TOTAL trooper. Really a neat neat horse. Currently he is on probiotic and pasture. It's just very frustrating because if he were allergic to something in his feed, wouldn't it be daily? Bacterial, all the med's he had would have cleared that up. Did a worm test and he passed, so it's not that. Any help would be appreciated. Patti Jo Walter www.franciscreekfjords.com Please note NEW email address [EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello I often work with race horse from the track and they have a lot intestinal up sets. Some things work on one horse and will not work on another. Sometimes it is just trial and error to get their diet right and of course the race horses have to eat so much grain that it can be impossible to get them ok till they come off it. A product called gastro guard is very good at helping ulcers heal. It is expensive, but well worth it. A week on it can be enough to help heal. All probiotics are not equal as well.You just need to try different types till you find the best one for your horse.I have one horse that can only eat timothy hay. Feed him any different kind of grass and his stomach becomes very volatile.He responds well to a pro biotic call fast track. Does not do as well on probias or several of the other varieties.Ye Sac is one that I have had good success with in older horses that get colicky. Also Succeed is a very good one, but the horse that does well on fast track does not do well on Succeed? Good luck just keep trying and you will find the right combination! Bonnie Morris ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Patti Jo, What a frustrating thing with this gelding! I have a 5 mo. old filly who just got over a weird bout of colitis 2 weeks ago. No temp, gums normal, eating, drinking + nursing, she just had a leaky hiney w/ no solid poops and a bloated belly. Aside from small doses of Banamine and ulcer meds, and the active yogurt + pedialyte blend, we gave her something called Bio Sponge (see link). It worked! The active ing. are suspended in a kaolin base, so it looks like you are putting 60cc's of clay in their mouth.Cleared up the ooze. My vet thought it was a case of salmonella, probably picked up when she ate some of her dam's poop, or stuff that is in the soil.. I can't rule out worms either with this baby, as we have moved onto a property that had not been kept up over the past 5 years, and there has been livestock on here intensively for the past 100+ years. One other product that I would use if my horse had a chronic history of scours, is 4 Life Transfer factor Performance + Show. I have posted about it before on this list, as I used it on a pregnant mare that had a very severe dryland distemper/pigeon fever infection and was severely debilitated. It is a bacterial infection caused by a corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis bacteria. (I actually lost a foal in Calif. to this crud, as her infections + abscesses were all internal.) The Transfer factor was recommended to me by a vet in Galt, Ca. who is a big racing TB vet and deals w/ allot of horses that have immune + respiratory problems. The stuff is $$ but is worth every penny. Since were talking about scours + colitis, on a food note, we grow excellent hay here in the central Oregon area, allot of the fancy Orchard Grass hay is shipped to Kentucky, etc. but I like the kentucky bluegrass straw hay that is a by-product of the grass seed industry here. We can get a ton of it for $70-$75 and it is just fine, bright, clean grass that seems like it was tailor- made for the airferns aka Fjords. I can give each horse 2-3 flakes and they stay busy on it most of the night. They also get some limited turnout on pasture. Here is the Bio Sponge link: http://platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/products/productcategories/product.cfm?category_id=162 Hope some of this info will be of help. Good luck! Karen in Madras, Or. The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Jeanne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good suggestion, Karen, about the BioSponge. Last week one of my fjord's came down with the exact same symptoms. Really runny manure, no fever, gut sounds, normal heart rate, normal colored gums... just really runny manure. My vet came, tubed her with charcoal, shot of banemine and one tube of that biosponge. We've got her on psyllium(sp?!) and the FastTrack probiotic now, and she appears completely normal. Very scary, because my vet now thinks it was a sand colic. So, because of everything that was given to Hanne, I really can't say, for sure, what exactly cleared her up... but she's good now. You can bet I have examined every pile of manure and every time she's laid down in the past two weeks. A very bad feeling, once you have a horse that's been sick. They say sand colic this time of year because, their fat, we cut back on their hay, they're board, so they vacuum every single teeny, weeny piece of whatever and don't drink like they should. Good luck, Patti, finding a resolution to the problem with the gelding. Jeanne - Berthoud, Fall is finally here! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Dave and Patti Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, got a question for the list. Not the best topic, butHe developed diarrhea while he was here. We tried several things Anyone ever have anything like this go on with a horse? Any help would be appreciated. Patti Jo Walter I SEE a few Internet sites that deal with this topic.. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061211223850AA9jTaE http://ctba.net/01magazine/jul01/hthomas.pdf http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0299gastrogrief.shtml the first thing that came to my mind was moldy hay, which can make a horse deathly sick, but if he's changed places it's not likely. best of luck in sorting this out. Ruthie, nw mt US The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] My friends had a Fjord they raised, had loose stool problems from babyhood, they thought the mare's milk was too rich, then thought it was worms, finally decided it was the Timothy hay: on Brome hay, no problem, but with Timothy he got loose stools again, even with his new owner, when she got a supply of Timothy hay, he got loose stools again. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, partly cloudy 43 degrees. Winter is right around the corner! A Just of the top of my head...Question ? Is the hay they are feeding from the same field, supplier and is it consistent in quality? What about the water supply? The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try molasses in their water and they will always consume enough. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] let's all try for a more natural life style for our horses and there would be way less colic and intestinal problems. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Debbie LeBreton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just read your info and I have a 11 year old fjord that has a destemper discharge from her nose. She has trouble breathing and the hay on the Island seems hard on her. I have her on pasture now but that hasn't taken her problem away. I try to exercise her every day but some days she has no energy. I still line drive her plus ride her for about half a hour a day or try to. Just trotting for 5 minutes makes her out of breath. If I keep her on medicine then she gets some energy. I am struggling with this problem. She also seems to have a weak leg problem. My vet checks her all the time and just tells me that it she seems okay. He blames the weakness on rocks. I have shoes on her all the time. The people that owned her before told me that she was a healthy pony. She is a very special pony and if you or the list of others know what to try I would greatly appreciate it. I do not know how to pass this out to the others so if you could please help me and Fergie out we would both apprecate this vey much. Thank you very much. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: RE: question for the list Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:24:02 + This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Patti Jo, What a frustrating thing with this gelding! I have a 5 mo. old filly who just got over a weird bout of colitis 2 weeks ago. No temp, gums normal, eating, drinking + nursing, she just had a leaky hiney w/ no solid poops and a bloated belly. Aside from small doses of Banamine and ulcer meds, and the active yogurt + pedialyte blend, we gave her something called Bio Sponge (see link). It worked! The active ing. are suspended in a kaolin base, so it looks like you are putting 60cc's of clay in their mouth.Cleared up the ooze. My vet thought it was a case of salmonella, probably picked up when she ate some of her dam's poop, or stuff that is in the soil.. I can't rule out worms either with this baby, as we have moved onto a property that had not been kept up over the past 5 years, and there has been livestock on here intensively for the past 100+ years. One other product that I would use if my horse had a chronic history of scours, is 4 Life Transfer factor Performance + Show. I have posted about it before on this list, as I used it on a pregnant mare that had a very severe dryland distemper/pigeon fever infection and was severely debilitated. It is a bacterial infection caused by a corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis bacteria. (I actually lost a foal in Calif. to this crud, as her infections + abscesses were all internal.) The Transfer factor was recommended to me by a vet in Galt, Ca. who is a big racing TB vet and deals w/ allot of horses that have immune + respiratory problems. The stuff is $$ but is worth every penny. Since were talking about scours + colitis, on a food note, we grow excellent hay here in the central Oregon area, allot of the fancy Orchard Grass hay is shipped to Kentucky, etc. but I like the kentucky bluegrass straw hay that is a by-product of the grass seed industry here. We can get a ton of it for $70-$75 and it is just fine, bright, clean grass that seems like it was tailor- made for the airferns aka Fjords. I can give each horse 2-3 flakes and they stay busy on it most of the night. They also get some limited turnout on pasture. Here is the Bio Sponge link: http://platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/products/productcategories/produ ct.cfm?category_id=162 Hope some of this info will be of help. Good luck! Karen in Madras, Or. The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw _ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: question for the list
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie LeBreton Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:56 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: RE: question for the list This message is from: Debbie LeBreton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just read your info and I have a 11 year old fjord that has a destemper discharge from her nose. She has trouble breathing and the hay on the Island seems hard on her. Where are you? Gail The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Mary Thurman [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Dave Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: Dave Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to me to work with as since May he has not been himself. He started bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. After reading your post and thinking about it, it occurs to me that this horse reminds me very much of a QH mare my cousin acquired when I was a teenager. The mare had been very well trained, had impeccable manners, etc., etc. My cousin's parents bought the mare after everyone had thoroughly tried her out, and had her shipped home. When she arrived home she seemed a little groggy and disoriented, which we expected after a long trip. After a few days of rest we began using her. She was just fine for a couple of days but seemed a little off balance at time. Then the horror stories started - unexplained bucking sessions, uncontrollable bolting, etc., etc. The mare was going positively nuts over little things - or sometimes apparently nothing. The only thing the vet could figure out, after many sessions with her, was that she had sustained a head injury somehow during shipping. The mare never recovered, unfortunately, and was put down for her own safety and the safety of her owner. Could something like this have happened to this Fjord gelding you are working with? Did his owner haul him somewhere a while before he became not himself? Does she keep him in a stable or pasture situation where he may have bumped his head or been kicked by another horse without anyone really noticing? I am also told that there are some toxins that can be injested(through weeds in hay or sprays that drift onto hay) which can affect the brain of animals and cause them to be totally unable to sort what is threatening and what is not. Don't know about this one, but I suppose it's possible,, but not very easy to trace. It is a very hard decision to put a horse down, but if the animal cannot be made non dangerous to those around him - and possibly to himself - then perhaps that is the best course for everyone. We had to make that decision with a foal that had contracted meningitis and had seizures. There was no way to know when she would have a seizure, whether she would have them continuing on into adulthood or not, and they were very violent. We put her down rather than have her be a menace to herself and others all her life. It seemed the kindest thing to do. Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: C. Ennis [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have seen spooky horses calm a bit (when using noisy clippers-etc) by putting cotton balls, or pom-poms in their ears, they are soft and make no sound when putting into the ears, never tried it myself, but have seen it work wonders, worth a try, and good luck. (be safe!) - Original Message - From: Dave Walter Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 9:58 PM To: fjord horse Subject: Serious Question for the list This message is from: Dave Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to me to work with as since May he has not been himself. He started bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. His owner thought it was mostly white things and things that made noise. Like a nylon jacket, crackling or rustling noise and things that floated. She knew that he was not the same horse he was before May. She can think of NOTHING that had happened to him to change him so. On one occasion a friend on her fjord took her jacket off and that set this gelding into a full bolt, he was just standing next to the other fjord. The owner was dumped, luckily not serious hurt. But they were in an indoor arena, he took her out the gate, down the aisle of the barn and out the front door. We are not just talking a little spook here. The owner had 2 or 3 very serious bolting incidents with him, that lost her trust in him and hence I got him. When she brought him to my farm, the first ride was quite a memory maker. We tacked him up in the barn, perfect gentleman. Brought him outside and I mounted him. I just got into the saddle and got situated when he threw his head down and started bucking like a bronc. He got the reins out of my hands since I was just into the saddle and not expecting this,needless to say I ended up in the dirt, actually blacktop! His owner said and I believe her, He has NEVER bucked a day in his life, neither with someone on him or on the lunge line. Again NOT HIMSELF. In regards to bolting, I myself have had him bolt several several times with me. I have been more success in getting him spun around before he can get too far. He bolts for little things,like when I rubbed my helmet on my head. I had an itchy head and just moved my helmet around on my head, it made a little Styrofoam noise, that was it, bang. The little noise was too much. Another time I moved my whip from one side to the other. He has been ridden with a whip for 5 years. We did get his eyes checked they were fine. I'm thinking, can you get a brain checked? Another thing to add, he is a big fellow, 15.1 and probably 1250lbs. He was riding very well before this happened, well trained. Never abused or mistreated, like I said very good ground manners and no mean bone in his body. Owner has owned him almost his whole life. Think since he was a yearling or 2 yr old. After working with him, I have assessed this is a major problem and a long haul commitment in which it might be fixable but nothing that will be fixed overnight, and there is no guarantee. His owner has lost her confidence with him and doesn't think she ever will get it back with him. She doesn't want anyone else to get hurt on him and doesn't know what to do with him. My question to the list is, What does a person do with a horse that they think is dangerous? She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions? You could either email me privately or discuss this on the list. She is open to suggestions and I would like to hear what people think. This is a heartbreaker for her, she is very attached to him and this is very heavy on my heart as well. Patti Jo Walter Francis Creek Fjords Two Rivers WI
Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 9/1/02 2:19:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brigid that was a brilliant question about what may have happened to the owner when the horses behavior changed. Good thinking. Jean Hi Jean- Thanks *blushing* I spent several years manning an animal behavior hotline, and I think I've heard it all ;-D Now this had to do with dogs and cats, but the whys wherefores are the same. I learned to read between the lines, to hear not just what the owner is trying to say, but what they are actually saying and what they are not saying. Often a little side remark will plainly answer the question, like My dog never had an accident at my other house, but after my divorce I had to move. Now you know there has been a significant upheaval in the owner's life that the animal is responding to. Medical problems are also common. Animals become aggressive and unpredictable due to hearing/vision loss, seizures, or other ailments. So a vet check is always the first step, and that includes chiropractic or other alternatives that may apply. I hope this person is able to work things out with her Fjord. Anything is possible with commitment and an open mind. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Our /A A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Fjords/A A HREF=http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html; Fjordings West/A / )__~ /L /L
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 9/1/2002 2:32:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It turned out the horse was going blind and he was frightened by familiar things that seemed to have become unfamiliar. Also, unfortunately they let him go blind over a period of several years and he would spin in circles. It was sad to see him. This blindness is hereditary in some breeds of horses and I do not know if they have a cure as yet. Jean Still, there are those blind horses who function quite well. John Lyon's appaloosa, for one. A friend of mine had a blind mare, and with the right attitude and precautions, she had many good years with this mare. Pamela A HREF=http://hometown.aol.com/northhorse/index.html;Northern Holiday Horses/A
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I remember a most reliable gelding who suddenly began acting panicky, unfortunately when I was riding him. The owner always felt I had done something to his horse until a year of this behavior when they noted a discoloration in his eyes. It turned out the horse was going blind and he was frightened by familiar things that seemed to have become unfamiliar. Also, unfortunately they let him go blind over a period of several years and he would spin in circles. It was sad to see him. This blindness is hereditary in some breeds of horses and I do not know if they have a cure as yet. Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Janet McNally [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Patti, Given that this gelding is a one owner horse, i.e. has no hidden history, and presuming that this behavior began suddenly, that it was not something that began with a little spook and grew into bigger spooks over time, or that there was not one traumatic incident to go back to, but instead he sincerely spooked big time from the start for no apparent reason, I strongly suggest looking into a physical problem, utilizing a variety of resources. You might check with the large vet clinics (such as the U of Minnesota) to find out what they are capable of doing. I'm not sure what the capabilities of WI and MI are. Perhaps before spending lots of on him, you might just do some simple testing to determine if there is some consistant trigger. do this safely of course, no horse is worth getting hurt over. An example I can relate to this geldings problem, is that eons ago I purchased a custom made orthoflex saddle from the company formed by Len Brown for my TWH gelding. Presumedly the cadillac of comfortable fitting saddles for long distance riding. You would not expect such a saddle to create pain would you? so a poor fitting saddle was low on my list of possibilities. However, my gelding, who had a heart of gold, and was previously riding just fine in an english saddle became extreemly agitated, almost out of control in the new saddle. It took a long ride, and visible raised patches on his back to bring home what the problem was. These saddles have 'flexible pannels' which are hinged at two points along the pannel. aparently my gelding was a princes, and he could feel the peathe raised patch told me he had a reason to be agitated, the hinges under the pannels were giving him pressure sores, even through 3/4 inch of leather, neoprene, and padding. Miraculously a simple thick wool felt saddle pad solved the problem and we rode hundreds of miles comfortably and controllably after that. Meanwhile, this saddle created no discomfort for any other horse I have owned, just that one gelding. Probably this has to do with the shape of the back, and the geldings pain threshold being very low. I offer this as an example of how a simple physical thing can create an unruly horse out of a good one. If his problem is found to be incurable, I think the best solution is to either make him into a pasture ornament, or put him down to be sure that no one will be injured, or that he might live a life of continually changing hands. regarding dangerous animals read Exodus 21:28-29. Best wishes, and keep safe. Janet
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patti why is this horse dangerous? What caused it? A mare can be very dangerous who has a tumerous ovary and when it is removed be gentle. Etc. Somewhat like the club footed fjord on this list, is it something worth trying to correct? Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. What does a person do with a horse that they think is dangerous? She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions? Patti Jo Walter This is a very sad story Patti Jo, I certainly do feel bad for you and the owner of this poor disturbed fellow. I see you're receiving some excellent letters of advice from other listers and I hope their collective information and empathizing helps you. I think the pain idea is well worth checking out thoroughly. I would definitely advise NOT riding him until this has been sorted out as you could be seriously injured, even the very best of skilled riders-- which you may be, would be running a great risk on a beserk horse. I once saw a different breed horse that had a phobia which triggered frenzies and it was actually frightening to see his homicidal behavior. In reading your letter, my best suggestion is for this owner not to even think about passing the horse on, through a sale, giving it away, or finding an unsuspecting trainer... (even though you warn them about the horse, they might simply perceive him as a challenge and think they can do better than you-- many proud trainers are like that =))) After this horse has been given every kind of physical check imagineable, and maybe even the expense of a chiropractor and visionary if this lady is so inclined and can afford them... and if there is no improvement still, she should have the sole responsibility of facing a hard decision about the future of this dangerous animal.. and must not pass on her duty, which might put lives at risk. People go amuck, dogs go amuck, horses might possibly go amuck also but somehow we idyllicly choose not to believe it is possible, because we fiercely love horses. I'll be hoping and praying that a solution is found for this dear fellow and that he can be restored to normality. Restored, assuming that he was normal before this extreme behavior began because you don't elaborate on his background and if he was used much or not. Ruthie, nw mt
RE: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Patti Jo, what a sad situation for the owner. I might be repeating some of the other responses here, but my suggestions would be: - Don't ride him, it's not worth the risk (even though you sound like an extremely brave and capable rider). And he is clearly not enjoying it either. See if the problem is still there when just working him on the ground. If possible, have him loose in a safe place (well fenced arena) and do some subtle tests with white plastic and funny noises. Even in his stall might work, just to see his reaction to similar things when not ridden. - I definitely second the idea of a chiropractor. I recently bought a TB mare who disliked people and when ridden just pinned her ears, shook her head and refused to move. Her breakthrough came with a chiropractic adjustment in addition to a better fitting saddle and proper hoof care. Some of her old behavior is still there as a habit but she's turning into a beautiful riding horse. - Then again, to answer to your real question: I would suggest giving him to someone with experience with problem horses and enough time and patience to get to the bottom of the problem, even if it takes years. Of course Brigid comes to mind... She has taken on two problem horses already, one that only bolted occasionally (BIG strong guy) and one that was probably far worse than the gelding you describe, he had seriously injured several people. She spent something like two years with him from the ground until she started riding him. Now he is ridden regularly and he is a different horse (and happy as a clam). He is still extremely fast and sensitive, rides like a sports car. - However, since this came around so sudden, and if he's only like this when being ridden then it seems very likely that there is strong pain involved and that he might change back to his usual self when the source of pain is eliminated. However, habits are hard to break so the more he is ridden the more likely he is to develop a real dangerous habit. - He is probably not a case for a professional trainer (you might be one, too?) because they need to make a living and NOT get injured/killed doing so, I certainly understand that they can't take on cases where progress comes in years rather than months and it involves danger. Wishing you good luck with him and please be careful! Dagrun, San Jose, Ca My question to the list is, What does a person do with a horse that they think is dangerous? She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions?
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patti Jo Walter/Dave Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to me to work with as since May he has not been himself. He started bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. [...] Like a nylon jacket, crackling or rustling noise and things that floated. [...] She can think of NOTHING that had happened to him to change him so. [...] I just got into the saddle and got situated when he threw his head down and started bucking like a bronc. [...] he is a big fellow, 15.1 and probably 1250lbs. [...] very good ground manners and no mean bone in his body. Every incident that you related occurred while under saddle. Does the horse also spook when in hand, with only a halter on? How about when he's led with only a bridle? If he's OK when unsaddled, I would suspect a back problem. The horse would undoubtedly benefit from an examination by a chiropractor, or at least a massage therapist. He could very well have gotten cast, or slipped on pasture, or done any number of simple things that strained something, or tweaked alignment of a vertebrae. The saddle could well be aggrivating the problem, and when the rider moves in the saddle, it may cause a twinge somewhere. If he's OK in a halter, but not in a bridle, then have an equine dental expert (not just any old vet) check his mouth. Bit contact on a sore tooth can turn a little shy into a big wreck! This sounds to me like a physical problem, not a training issue, so the first step is to find out what it is, and whether it is fixable. If you haven't already, quiz the owner about ANY new tack she might have bought or started using since May. That might point to where his ache is. For that matter, he's a big boy. It may simply be that he has filled out to the point that his saddle no longer fits. One of our Fjords (the one built like an oil drum) is rather reactive, and it was a lot worse when we were (unknowingly) riding him with a saddle that pinched his shoulders, just behind the withers. Interestingly, I later saw an acupressure chart that labelled that spot as the panic point---supposedly, pressure there pushes the critter closer to threshold on losing it, mentally. However, once you find and fix the problem, you'll still have some work ahead of you. He's going to remember that certain things used to hurt, and anticipate them, so he'll have to be started over, to regain his confidence. Good luck! Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Alison Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Patti, I had a part Arabian mare that started the same type of behaviour almost over night. She was a little more controllable than this fellow. I rode her for about five years before she died from a bacterial infection. That infection originally had entered her system through a small cut and ate out the heart value. When the mare realized that she was not at her best she started shying. What helped with this mare was moving to the bush. With your gelding I can see a couple of possibilities. Finding a home for him where he is a pasture ornament or put him down. Alison Bakken Sunder, Alberta
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Patti Jo, Without seeing this boy, but going from your description, I would say to not give up on him. Most problems we see in horses are either related to injury/illness or are man-made, inadvertently or not. Has he been thoroughly checked over by a qualified vet? Teeth, ears, legs, joints, and spine? His flight mechanism could be on high due to pain. However, it personally sounds like he recently had a very traumatic experience due to something with noise and the color white which has affected him so badly, his flight response turns on immediately at any reminder. Another hint of this being a strong possibility is the fact of him bolting when you lifted your hand to scratch your head. I would say he was reacting not only to the noise, but the fact of the noise and your raised hand combined. He is trying to get away from a repeat of whatever this bad experience entailed. While I realize the owner is adamant such a thing has not happened, unless the owner has been with him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it is possible she did not observe the event. Anyone else ever on that farm? Kids playing pranks? An unknown visitor? There are countless ways for such a thing to happen, unfortunately. My suggestion would be to no longer ride or drive him, but to go back to the very basics. Regain his trust, then work with objects that are known to be frightening to him. This WILL be a long and drawn out process, but the result will be well worth it. We have worked with a few horses that had similar awful experiences at the hands of their previous owners and all have successful, happy, and productive lives now. Good luck and keep all of us posted! Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Shetlands White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: Serious Question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dave- Sorry to hear of this troubling situation. I hope the owner can find a solution. I specialize in nutty horses so too bad I'm not in your area ;-) I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I hope no one will be judgmental. Now, my question may seem a little strange but it's important. What happened in the owner's life around the time of the gelding's change? Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Our /A A HREF=http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html;Fjords/A A HREF=http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html; Fjordings West/A / )__~ /L /L
Serious Question for the list
This message is from: Dave Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a very serious question I would like to throw out to the list. PLEASE think before you answer and PLEASE don't judge or be critical. I have in my barn a 7 or 8 year old Fjord Gelding. He was sent to me to work with as since May he has not been himself. He started bolting and spooking at things he has never cared about before. His owner thought it was mostly white things and things that made noise. Like a nylon jacket, crackling or rustling noise and things that floated. She knew that he was not the same horse he was before May. She can think of NOTHING that had happened to him to change him so. On one occasion a friend on her fjord took her jacket off and that set this gelding into a full bolt, he was just standing next to the other fjord. The owner was dumped, luckily not serious hurt. But they were in an indoor arena, he took her out the gate, down the aisle of the barn and out the front door. We are not just talking a little spook here. The owner had 2 or 3 very serious bolting incidents with him, that lost her trust in him and hence I got him. When she brought him to my farm, the first ride was quite a memory maker. We tacked him up in the barn, perfect gentleman. Brought him outside and I mounted him. I just got into the saddle and got situated when he threw his head down and started bucking like a bronc. He got the reins out of my hands since I was just into the saddle and not expecting this,needless to say I ended up in the dirt, actually blacktop! His owner said and I believe her, He has NEVER bucked a day in his life, neither with someone on him or on the lunge line. Again NOT HIMSELF. In regards to bolting, I myself have had him bolt several several times with me. I have been more success in getting him spun around before he can get too far. He bolts for little things,like when I rubbed my helmet on my head. I had an itchy head and just moved my helmet around on my head, it made a little Styrofoam noise, that was it, bang. The little noise was too much. Another time I moved my whip from one side to the other. He has been ridden with a whip for 5 years. We did get his eyes checked they were fine. I'm thinking, can you get a brain checked? Another thing to add, he is a big fellow, 15.1 and probably 1250lbs. He was riding very well before this happened, well trained. Never abused or mistreated, like I said very good ground manners and no mean bone in his body. Owner has owned him almost his whole life. Think since he was a yearling or 2 yr old. After working with him, I have assessed this is a major problem and a long haul commitment in which it might be fixable but nothing that will be fixed overnight, and there is no guarantee. His owner has lost her confidence with him and doesn't think she ever will get it back with him. She doesn't want anyone else to get hurt on him and doesn't know what to do with him. My question to the list is, What does a person do with a horse that they think is dangerous? She isn't sure she could sell him in good conscience even telling the buyer what is the problem, will they listen and would they get hurt or killed? Giving him away poses the same problem. Do you put them down? Is there a place for him? Does anyone have any solutions? You could either email me privately or discuss this on the list. She is open to suggestions and I would like to hear what people think. This is a heartbreaker for her, she is very attached to him and this is very heavy on my heart as well. Patti Jo Walter Francis Creek Fjords Two Rivers WI
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/22/00 7:30:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now I suppose someone will try to created a miniature Fjord just like someone has created a miniature form of the Siberian Husky. What next? Oh heck Jeannow you've given me something to think about. I'm sure I'll wake up tonite from a dream being surrounded by little bitty fjord horses, the size of my german shepherd!!! g Pamela
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I couldn't believe the amount of mail, from the time we left Hawaii till we got home, all about crossbreeding!!! I've not caught up, but am skimming a lot. Here's my humble take. Fjords are the best horses I've come across in my life, for where I am in my life now. I can't see any reason to add, take away. Other breeds are other breeds. Adding fjord blood will take away their purity too. And as others have said, you could wind up with a sorry looking animal if you aren't careful. There WAS that one qh/fjord for sale on the net last month that I thought was particularly handsome. If they were all guaranteed to come out like that, I wouldn't have a problem. But there is no guarantee, and as has been stated, if you get a horse that has light bone, heavy body, you are doing that baby no favor in being born. I'd rather use the fjord genes to perpetuate this breed and have it flourish than to dilute the gene pool. Pamela Still jet lagged and hoping to make some sense
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: cnielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna- Question: Why own and promote Fjords if all you want to do is exactly opposite of what everyone else is trying to preserver. to try and get something that you have no idea what the outcome will be-aren't there enough unwanted horses? are you willing to keep these foals your stallion produces even if they aren't what you are looking for sporthorses. are the owners of the mares willing to do this or will they just be dumped like so many of the unwanted crosses - is it just to make money with a stallion?? maybe you should do just a bit more checking into this -sounds to me like there are plenty of fjord crosses in Canada maybe you can go find a sport horse up there that need a home!! - Original Message - From: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: Re: a question for the list This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] AGAIN people. Crossbreeding cannot hurt the Fjord unless you decide to register the offspring Come on now!And no one is trying to better the Fjord breed. IT is what it is, you cannot register the crossbred anyhow so how could you possibly use it to better the breed. I am talking about crossing to make a sport horse type to show in CT, dressage or stadium jumping. Something that does not require papers anyhow. Now, how is this harmful? Purity of the breed should be maintained without question, this does NOT interfere with that. Anna From: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:59:10 -0500 This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynn Mohr wrote: I don't understand the argument that cross breeding hurts theFjord breed. It's hard to explain, without sounding religious about it. But I've come to the realization over the years that North Americans tend to ruin horse breeds. When I was a kid in Pony Club there were two quarter horses in our barn. They were great horses! a mare and a gelding, 15 hh and 14.2, and their lucky owners were always in the top ribbons in every thing they did, eventing, dressage, hunter, gymkhana, etc etc. These two were always the best horses for hacking, fooling around bareback, and swimming in the pond. Very trustworthy. Almost 20 years later I went looking for such a quarter horse. Do you think I could find one? Nowadays they're all 16 hh or more, long thin necks, teeny weeny feet, and spook at their shadow. Ruined!! In the Fjordhorse we have an opportunity to do right by preserving what nature and careful selective breeders have given us. How could creating a bunch of half-bred Fjord wannabees possibly be good for the Fjord breed? - and others have said that these crosses invariably turn out poorly - so why bother? Lori __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori: I am not being pushy, just stating a point. The value of the purebred is in breeding as well as competition, the value of a cross in only competition. What I am trying to say is that they will do the purebred no harm. As far as the paragraph how is a breed considered pure if there are partbreds running around is ludicrous. A partbred can never be considered purebred! A purebred is just that, pure of its race, the part bred is a mixture. Anna From: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:19:50 -0500 This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna Rousseau wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] AGAIN people. Crossbreeding cannot hurt the Fjord unless you decide to register the offspring Okay. So bad example (the ruination of QH's and other breeds). But if it weren't rude to call someone rude I'd have to say you are being rather pushy and overbearing about the promotion of your ideas and ridiculing of everyone else's. How on earth can a breed be considered pure if there is a tribe of halfbreeds running around out there? And what makes you so sure that Fjord-crosses would be better at those activities than Fjords? Or better than whatever they were crossed to? The Fjord-crosses I've seen were extremely poor specimens, even though pure Fjords by the same stallion were nice Fjords. Lori __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
SV: a question for the list
This message is from: Anneli Sundkvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna wrote: I have spent my life studying many different breeds and I think quite a few are great breeds, but many are too specialized and should not be owned by the average owner, but to combine that those breeds with something like a Fjord for temperment and bone would make a phenomenal horse. As you say quite a few breeds ARE suitable for the average horseowner, so why try to change the more specialized breeds by crossing them with Fjords when there are enough horse breeds already to fit the needs of 99% of us horse owners? I have seen several fjordcrosses (FjordXSwedish warmblod, Gotland pony, TB, Belgian, Lipizzaner, Shetland...) and none of them have been better than any of the two original breeds used for the cross, just different. Once when I was thinking of which stallion to breed my mare to, one of my friends suggested me to use a stallion from a different breed since that would give me a larger horse (I had thoughts about buying a larger horse at the time). I just thought that if I wanted a horse similar to Fjord/TB or Fjord/warmblood cross, I could might as well buy a North-Swedish trotter or Döle trotter. Apart from seldom having the dun colour, these breeds look pretty much (when it comes to type - they have their own breed-characteristics) like the Fjord/TB:s or Fjord/WB:s I've seen and there are horses out there that NEED HOMES since they haven't done well enough in the harness racing to be used in the breeding programmes. If I wanted a larger horse, why should I cross breed from my! mare instead of given one of these ex harness-racers a home? Many of them make wonderful pleasure horses. I don't know about the situation in the rest of the world, but here in Sweden we're about to face problems with a lot of unwanted horses very soon. It has become popular to breed for colour. Nothing wrong in that, but right now it means that many people breed their standardbred mares (re-schooled as riding horses) with paint- or pinto stallions. There are a lot of advertisments where these crosses (most of them un-coloured, the coloured are more expensive) are offered at very low prices. Some of them end up with the Swedish rescue organisation. The fathers might be top-quality stallions, but many of the foals are still unwanted horses that have been produced because the mare-owners felt that they wanted to breed from their mare. My point is that event though these foals have a 'trendy' father, most people just tend to see their 'not-so-trendy' mother and the foal might become another unwanted horse! Just my 2 cents! Regards Anneli
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna Rousseau wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] AGAIN people. Crossbreeding cannot hurt the Fjord unless you decide to register the offspring Okay. So bad example (the ruination of QH's and other breeds). But if it weren't rude to call someone rude I'd have to say you are being rather pushy and overbearing about the promotion of your ideas and ridiculing of everyone else's. How on earth can a breed be considered pure if there is a tribe of halfbreeds running around out there? And what makes you so sure that Fjord-crosses would be better at those activities than Fjords? Or better than whatever they were crossed to? The Fjord-crosses I've seen were extremely poor specimens, even though pure Fjords by the same stallion were nice Fjords. Lori
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] AGAIN people. Crossbreeding cannot hurt the Fjord unless you decide to register the offspring Come on now!And no one is trying to better the Fjord breed. IT is what it is, you cannot register the crossbred anyhow so how could you possibly use it to better the breed. I am talking about crossing to make a sport horse type to show in CT, dressage or stadium jumping. Something that does not require papers anyhow. Now, how is this harmful? Purity of the breed should be maintained without question, this does NOT interfere with that. Anna From: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:59:10 -0500 This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynn Mohr wrote: I don't understand the argument that cross breeding hurts theFjord breed. It's hard to explain, without sounding religious about it. But I've come to the realization over the years that North Americans tend to ruin horse breeds. When I was a kid in Pony Club there were two quarter horses in our barn. They were great horses! a mare and a gelding, 15 hh and 14.2, and their lucky owners were always in the top ribbons in every thing they did, eventing, dressage, hunter, gymkhana, etc etc. These two were always the best horses for hacking, fooling around bareback, and swimming in the pond. Very trustworthy. Almost 20 years later I went looking for such a quarter horse. Do you think I could find one? Nowadays they're all 16 hh or more, long thin necks, teeny weeny feet, and spook at their shadow. Ruined!! In the Fjordhorse we have an opportunity to do right by preserving what nature and careful selective breeders have given us. How could creating a bunch of half-bred Fjord wannabees possibly be good for the Fjord breed? - and others have said that these crosses invariably turn out poorly - so why bother? Lori __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Lynn Mohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Creating cross bred fjords doesn't affect the breed at all. The crosses made be good or bad, but they are not fjords. The other breeds that you feel are screwed up were done by breeders selecting for certain traits, within the breed, not by crosses. This is a moot point, but it is a fact that a pure bred fjord mare bred to any number of studs of various linages is STILL THE SAME MARE. These out breedings would have no effect on a mating to a fjord stallion and that off spring would be no better or worse if the mare hadn't been previously cross bred. I respect anyones opinion or belief regarding the fjord, but I can't buy all the info given to prove their point. Most of it appears to be one viewing of a cross or never even having seen one. Preserving the integrity of the fjord breed has nothing to fear from cross breeding but has much to fear from breeders selecting for traits that are extreme on either ends of the spectrum within the breed.
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynn Mohr wrote: I don't understand the argument that cross breeding hurts theFjord breed. It's hard to explain, without sounding religious about it. But I've come to the realization over the years that North Americans tend to ruin horse breeds. When I was a kid in Pony Club there were two quarter horses in our barn. They were great horses! a mare and a gelding, 15 hh and 14.2, and their lucky owners were always in the top ribbons in every thing they did, eventing, dressage, hunter, gymkhana, etc etc. These two were always the best horses for hacking, fooling around bareback, and swimming in the pond. Very trustworthy. Almost 20 years later I went looking for such a quarter horse. Do you think I could find one? Nowadays they're all 16 hh or more, long thin necks, teeny weeny feet, and spook at their shadow. Ruined!! In the Fjordhorse we have an opportunity to do right by preserving what nature and careful selective breeders have given us. How could creating a bunch of half-bred Fjord wannabees possibly be good for the Fjord breed? - and others have said that these crosses invariably turn out poorly - so why bother? Lori
Crossbreeding (was Re: a question for the list)
This message is from: Misty Meadows B B [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anna - We are fjord breeders who also happen to own a fjord-morgan cross, Heidi. (first time I have admitted this on the list:: ) Heidi was our first horse, purchased for a nine year old daughter. As we learned more about fjords, we opted for quality breeding stock of registered fjords. Noone knows the original breeders of Heidi and we ourselves do not crossbreed because we too feel that the fjordhorse has characteristics maintained over the centuries that are too precious to lose. There are crossbreeds that crop up here in BC at shows and CDE's; they cannot be registered with the Canadian Fjordhorse Association and they are generally not an improvement of either breed. Heidi is the only fjord-cross that we have ever seen that I would deem successful in appearance. In fact, she is a gorgeous animal who also shows successfully, almost always in the top three ribbons in the hunter-jumper ring. (class size 30 horses) She is darker than our fjords, has lost the characteristic oatmeal muzzle, but retains the mane. She has slighter legs, a slighter head and neck and retains the stripings on her legs. Because of her showing record, we could sell her tomorrow at a greater price than any of our adult registered fjords, so discussions of price are a red herring in thinking of cross breeding. However, did she improve the Morgan? - no, absolutely not! Morgan folks think her heavy, she does not have their characteristic trot; hunter judges still whisper to Elise that they loved her riding but her horse does not have a hunter neck. Although both Morgans and fjords are good driving horses, the thought of ever putting a cart, wagon or plough behind Heidi would result in a certain accident. Somehow, she has a much different temperment than either of her original breeds. And is she a fjord? - absolutely not!! Our bed and breakfast guest children can roam freely among the fjords, but not with Heidi. She is flightly. Our fjords live as an intact herd with their stallion, but Heidi is too high strung to fit into this situation. Heidi is the only horse on the property who needs four shoes because her feet are not as hard. She will never be ridden by any of the children who come for lessons or guests because she is flighty, suddenly deciding to kick out at a school bus passing by on the road, or a gust of wind. She hates grey horses in the show ring and pursues them. Elise has the riding skills to make her look like a push button horse whose rider is doing little, but what we have at times in the hunter ring is an extremely strong horse that is pulling like a freight train. As our younger daughter has taken over the riding of Heidi this year, she has been given three flying lessons - something that I hate and do not even think about with her daily riding or our fjords. On trail rides, Heidi is the horse that will kick back at a following horse endangering a rider. So although Heidi is a beloved, very highly trained, good looking horse with good confirmation and who can probably outperform most fjords in jumping, we have lost one of the truly unique and important qualities of the breed - TEMPERMENT. Temperment is so inherent and important in our breed that we cannot allow it to become altered in any way. The signature temperment of the breed is patient, willing, courgeous, reliable, mild-mannered, steadfast, dependable, friendly. Comparing the fjord crosses that I have seen which all lack this signature and and the wonderful purebreds that we have bred who all have this signature temperment, there is no doubt in my mind that crossbreeding fjords should simply not be done. It doesn't matter whether we are talking mare or stallion. I always at a loss when I get at least four phone calls a year from folks wanting to know how to market their fjord crosses - the words too strong for my child, needs someone with strong hands, stubborn, should be warning flags to us all. Cathy at Misty Meadows BB and Fjords, Victoria, BC
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think the Canadian Fjord Horse Association has any ban against crossbreeding. They discourage crossbreeding and promote keeping the breed pure, but there are no rules penalizing someone who crossbreeds. I guess what I am saying, is that someone who feels strongly that they wish to crossbreed their Fjord should consider the CFHA or another Fjord registry (If it is important to them to BE in a Fjord registry of some sort and keep their animals registered) and not worry about the rules of NFHR. If you want to be a member of NFHR in good standing and have your fjords registered in NFHR then you must abide by their rules! Nobody is going to arrest you for crossbreeding your Fjord Stallion or mare, And there is nothing to prevent someone from buying a Fjord stud colt and using him for crossbreeding, if that is what you want to do. You just won't be permitted to be a member of NFHR or have you animals registered in NFHR. There was a person in Whitehorse,YT Canada, who was using a Fjord Stallion on Quarterhorse mares to produce what they called Cherry Fjords which looked much like fjords but were a red shade of brown dun. There is a mare from that breeding here in Fairbanks, and she looks a LOT like a Fjord. The owner bred her to a dun colored quarterhorse stallion here and the resulting 1/4 ford-3/4 quarterhorse still has the fjord coloring but much of the quarterhorse characteristics. The gal that bought this 1/4 Fjord insists on calling her a Fjord (And I insist on correcting her much to her irritation! VEG) It is interesting that the Quarterhorse Association won't register this 3/4 Quarterhorse either or allow her to be entered in the Quarterhorse shows. I don't believe in crossbreeding Fjords (Let me make that clear) but if that is what you want to do, Anna, there is nothing preventing you from doing it. As Jean Gayle said: I just feel a group that wants the breed to remain pure and no halves is as correct as one who registers half breeds. It is a matter of one's own philosophy. Now I suppose someone will try to created a miniature Fjord just like someone has created a miniature form of the Siberian Husky. What next? Jean in sunny and warm Fairbanks, Alaska, +41 degrees equals melting snow and Fjord hair all over the place! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna I appreciate your response re what is wrong with a fjord stallion covering mares of another breed. I guess nothing if that is how you feel. But others do not agree so so beit. Not everyone takes a shower every day, is that wrong? I just feel a group that wants the breed to remain pure and no halves is as correct as one who registers half breeds. It is a matter of one's own philosophy. Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes Noble Book Stores
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would like to point out that it has probably taken hundreds, if not thousands of years of breeding to create the diverse group of horse breeds we have today. To think we can accomplish much by crossbreeding a couple of times is unrealistic.
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] All of you that spoke up with concerns of Crossbreds being put off as purebreds... Does the registry you are in not bloodtype or DNA test? Anna From: cnielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:33:31 -0600 This message is from: cnielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna, I don't want to insult but I think this country has enough horses that are cross bred-for example - look at quarter horse crosses - they are a dime a dozen where I live and they aren't nice ones-they are any two horses thrown together just to have a foal - and maybe making money on a stud fee. I'm no big breeder, but I would hate to see this breed ruined in crossing them with other breeds- this country has a tendency to do that with everything we get our hands on-just like the many breeds of dogs.If people start crossing fjords and breeding their half breeds then there goes the qualities we originally got into the breed for.a breed should be kept true for what they are-each serves its purpose- if it cant do what you would like-then find a breed that can come on listers I know we have strong opinions on this subject- just like the Zebra cross thing that was discussed awhile back. sorry this is so long Randi from Wisconsin - Original Message - From: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 4:09 PM Subject: Re: a question for the list This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1) The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I disagree. There may be a cross that is more suitable for a certain discipline than the purebred Fjord. What breeds would not exist today if there was no crossbreeding allowed in any other breeds? That is very narrow minded. That is like the Nazi's idea that only the light skinned, light eyed type of people were with any intelligence or athletic ability. 2) I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Well, I said nothing about breeding a good Fjord to a bad mare of any other breed. There are good mares of other breeds that would benefit from some good Fjord characteristics. Every breed has some faults, cross breeding a TB mare for instance with the Fjord can breed out some of the hot and add more bone. This would make a better performance animal. I can understand the idea of keeping a breed pure for survival of the breed. This breed however will not be hurt by crossbreeding of stallions. Other breeds out there could use some of these characteristics. I think the Fjord crosses would excell in many different areas which would in turn help promote the Fjord horse, widening the market! Wake up people, half the sport horses competing for this country in international competitions are cross breeds of one sort or another. Why not promote your horses this way allowing stallions to crossbreed? Thanks Anna From: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:54:30 -0500 This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 AM 3/22/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list members: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. If it is the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry that your talking about then the answer is yes that is true. The NFHR does not allow crossbreeding. Here is the exact text of the rule: == In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. == The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynn: That is my point exactly. I really do not understand this registry or the ideas of most of the members on the list. Like I have said, I can understand why not cross the mares, they are limited in numbers and the potential there could be harmful, but what harm does a Fjord stallion breeding other breeds of mares do? thanks Anna From: Lynn Mohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:55:56 -0500 This message is from: Lynn Mohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't understand the argument that cross breeding hurts theFjord breed. The result of the cross is NOT a fjord, it is a cross. It can not be registered and never will be. The fjord used in the cross is exactly the same horse it was before the breeding. How does this hurt the actual fjord breed? I'm not trying to argue with anyone, only better understand. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meredith: Agreed. There would be good and bad in crossbreeding as far as conformation or temperment and movement would go, BUT I have seen some nice purebred Fjords and I have seen some VERY bad purebred Fjords. AS a matter of fact, I have had other people tell me that Fjords look like they are only good for Draft work, have a piggy temperment and to most people are not pleasing to the eye. It took me a long time to find the guy that I have. I did not buy him to breed, only to train for classical dressage and to do breed demos so that people that had the above ideas of Fjords could see their ideas were incorrect. I chose to have only stallions on my farm for riding because that is all I enjoy at this time. I did the breeding farm thing for years, I am tired of that road. I have the horses I have to enjoy and to bring awareness of other breeds to the forefront in my area which is isolated and not much in the way of horse other than QH, TB and Arabs. THanks Anna From: Meredith Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: FjordHorse-L fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:39:20 -0500 This message is from: Meredith Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] what harm is there in breeding a stallion to other breeds of mares? The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. Anna ... we are very awake ... I am with those who believe this breed to be unique in looks and behavior; and in genotype too, we've recently found out. Fjords are very different from other horses and don't always cross well. I have seen some photos of very ugly Fjord crosses and some of nice Fjord crosses. But are the best results an improvement over either breed? What could you be trying to produce with a Fjord cross? A fabulous family horse? a handsome steady pony to compete in driving, do packing or to do farm work? a best friend and trail companion? a very handsome smooth moving mount for basic dressage that you don't need a ladder to get up on? What could you cross with a Fjordhorse to beat the real thing? At this point in time, I see no good reason to cross this breed with anything else, especially since there are many reports of cross-breds being passed off as pure-breds. Since the Fjord is so special, and I've heard that crosses do not necessarily pick up the wonderful Fjord temperament, I don't think it would be favorable to the breed to allow crosses. There are already hundreds of thousands of cross-bred ponies and horses out there that desperately need good homes ... pure-breds too, for that matter. If a related breed like the Freisian, or the Highland, or Fell Pony, or the Icelandic, or a draft breed grew genetically weak through small numbers or heavy linebreeding and they asked us to infuse their breed with a dose of the Fjords genetic strength (like the Pointers did for the Dalmatians in the '80's) I certainly could not see turning them down. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy. Tennessee. USA Dorina NFR Aagot __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori: I do understand prepotency. I raise Iberian horses for sometime and they are very prepotent. The issue here is not to better the Fjord or to call a partbred Fjord a purebred. What I am saying here is that to use a Fjord stallion to other breeds of mares will not hurt the Fjord breed. That is my one and only point. The Iberian horse for instance has been bred since the 12th century, they are very prepotent to type, and their native stud books in Spain and in Portugal allow cross breeding for equine athletes. They do not register them as purebred. The Fjord horse though has been outcrossed says historians. They have been part of the melting pot for other breeds. How did this happen? Anna From: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:05:42 -0500 This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna Rousseau wrote: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. Well, I do not know if that is true or not, but I find this ridiculous Dear Anna: The Fjord is very prepotent genetically. This means that a Fjord-cross will look very Fjord-like. The reason for that is that the Norwegians, by virtue of their geographical isolation and the fact they realized they had a good thing in the Fjordhorse, carefully protected the purity of the breed and did not outcross (with the exception of the Rimfakse incident). The Europeans have spent a lot of time and effort to keep the Fjordhorse purebred and to improve the breed, by evaluating the quality of all their horses and breeding the best to the best. They judge their horses on conformation, conformance to breed standard, and performance in a wide variety of activities. For North Americans to come along and think we can do better by outcrossing, thereby destroying the purity of the breed, would be a violation of the years and years of protection and preservation that the Europeans have devoted to this most unique horse. It would be a violation of the sacred trust and stewardship we have in the Fjordhorse breed. I don't really care if it would improve another breed, or if most of the sporthorses out there are crosses, or whatever. The purebred Fjordhorse has what it takes to go to the top in many disciplines, and for those disciplines that he doesn't, well, I'm sure there are breeds that do. I hope that makes sense. Lori __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean: Yes, that was a little strong, but to say that the Fjord is better than all the rest, I do not think that true. There are many breeds, each independantly better for there own reasons. There is no need to start another group. I think it is fine for there to be a preservation group. I see the purpose in keeping the purebred Fjord mares for purebred breeding, the mares only have one foal per year, but how is it harmful to the breed for a stallion that is nice to cover mares of another breed? That is my question. I have spent my life studying many different breeds and I think quite a few are great breeds, but many are too specialized and should not be owned by the average owner, but to combine that those breeds with something like a Fjord for temperment and bone would make a phenomenal horse. Thanks Anna From: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:25:01 -0800 This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna, there is nothing wrong with improving a breed but that is in the eye of the beholder. I think you are a bit strong in thenazi reference. Groups form for certain purposes. Nfhr is there to maintain the breed as it now is. Form your own group, Fjords for the improvement of the quarter horse Give those poor improved quarterhorses a neck that holds their head up and feet they can stand on. Or Fjords for the improvement of Arabs. Give them girth and a soft temperament. But do not try to change an established group to fit your needs. You have a lot to offer I am sure. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes Noble Book Stores __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Lynn Mohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't understand the argument that cross breeding hurts theFjord breed. The result of the cross is NOT a fjord, it is a cross. It can not be registered and never will be. The fjord used in the cross is exactly the same horse it was before the breeding. How does this hurt the actual fjord breed? I'm not trying to argue with anyone, only better understand.
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: cnielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna, I don't want to insult but I think this country has enough horses that are cross bred-for example - look at quarter horse crosses - they are a dime a dozen where I live and they aren't nice ones-they are any two horses thrown together just to have a foal - and maybe making money on a stud fee. I'm no big breeder, but I would hate to see this breed ruined in crossing them with other breeds- this country has a tendency to do that with everything we get our hands on-just like the many breeds of dogs.If people start crossing fjords and breeding their half breeds then there goes the qualities we originally got into the breed for.a breed should be kept true for what they are-each serves its purpose- if it cant do what you would like-then find a breed that can come on listers I know we have strong opinions on this subject- just like the Zebra cross thing that was discussed awhile back. sorry this is so long Randi from Wisconsin - Original Message - From: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 4:09 PM Subject: Re: a question for the list This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1) The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I disagree. There may be a cross that is more suitable for a certain discipline than the purebred Fjord. What breeds would not exist today if there was no crossbreeding allowed in any other breeds? That is very narrow minded. That is like the Nazi's idea that only the light skinned, light eyed type of people were with any intelligence or athletic ability. 2) I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Well, I said nothing about breeding a good Fjord to a bad mare of any other breed. There are good mares of other breeds that would benefit from some good Fjord characteristics. Every breed has some faults, cross breeding a TB mare for instance with the Fjord can breed out some of the hot and add more bone. This would make a better performance animal. I can understand the idea of keeping a breed pure for survival of the breed. This breed however will not be hurt by crossbreeding of stallions. Other breeds out there could use some of these characteristics. I think the Fjord crosses would excell in many different areas which would in turn help promote the Fjord horse, widening the market! Wake up people, half the sport horses competing for this country in international competitions are cross breeds of one sort or another. Why not promote your horses this way allowing stallions to crossbreed? Thanks Anna From: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:54:30 -0500 This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 AM 3/22/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list members: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. If it is the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry that your talking about then the answer is yes that is true. The NFHR does not allow crossbreeding. Here is the exact text of the rule: == In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. == The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Please, explain this issue to me, I hope that this information that I received is incorrect. Looking forward to that response. These are my opinions only. If you want to get the official opinion of the NFHR then contact the President - Dennis Johnson. His email address is [EMAIL
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Meredith Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] what harm is there in breeding a stallion to other breeds of mares? The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. Anna ... we are very awake ... I am with those who believe this breed to be unique in looks and behavior; and in genotype too, we've recently found out. Fjords are very different from other horses and don't always cross well. I have seen some photos of very ugly Fjord crosses and some of nice Fjord crosses. But are the best results an improvement over either breed? What could you be trying to produce with a Fjord cross? A fabulous family horse? a handsome steady pony to compete in driving, do packing or to do farm work? a best friend and trail companion? a very handsome smooth moving mount for basic dressage that you don't need a ladder to get up on? What could you cross with a Fjordhorse to beat the real thing? At this point in time, I see no good reason to cross this breed with anything else, especially since there are many reports of cross-breds being passed off as pure-breds. Since the Fjord is so special, and I've heard that crosses do not necessarily pick up the wonderful Fjord temperament, I don't think it would be favorable to the breed to allow crosses. There are already hundreds of thousands of cross-bred ponies and horses out there that desperately need good homes ... pure-breds too, for that matter. If a related breed like the Freisian, or the Highland, or Fell Pony, or the Icelandic, or a draft breed grew genetically weak through small numbers or heavy linebreeding and they asked us to infuse their breed with a dose of the Fjords genetic strength (like the Pointers did for the Dalmatians in the '80's) I certainly could not see turning them down. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy. Tennessee. USA Dorina NFR Aagot
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna Rousseau wrote: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. Well, I do not know if that is true or not, but I find this ridiculous Dear Anna: The Fjord is very prepotent genetically. This means that a Fjord-cross will look very Fjord-like. The reason for that is that the Norwegians, by virtue of their geographical isolation and the fact they realized they had a good thing in the Fjordhorse, carefully protected the purity of the breed and did not outcross (with the exception of the Rimfakse incident). The Europeans have spent a lot of time and effort to keep the Fjordhorse purebred and to improve the breed, by evaluating the quality of all their horses and breeding the best to the best. They judge their horses on conformation, conformance to breed standard, and performance in a wide variety of activities. For North Americans to come along and think we can do better by outcrossing, thereby destroying the purity of the breed, would be a violation of the years and years of protection and preservation that the Europeans have devoted to this most unique horse. It would be a violation of the sacred trust and stewardship we have in the Fjordhorse breed. I don't really care if it would improve another breed, or if most of the sporthorses out there are crosses, or whatever. The purebred Fjordhorse has what it takes to go to the top in many disciplines, and for those disciplines that he doesn't, well, I'm sure there are breeds that do. I hope that makes sense. Lori
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Jean Gayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anna, there is nothing wrong with improving a breed but that is in the eye of the beholder. I think you are a bit strong in thenazi reference. Groups form for certain purposes. Nfhr is there to maintain the breed as it now is. Form your own group, Fjords for the improvement of the quarter horse Give those poor improved quarterhorses a neck that holds their head up and feet they can stand on. Or Fjords for the improvement of Arabs. Give them girth and a soft temperament. But do not try to change an established group to fit your needs. You have a lot to offer I am sure. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes Noble Book Stores
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1) The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I disagree. There may be a cross that is more suitable for a certain discipline than the purebred Fjord. What breeds would not exist today if there was no crossbreeding allowed in any other breeds? That is very narrow minded. That is like the Nazi's idea that only the light skinned, light eyed type of people were with any intelligence or athletic ability. 2) I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Well, I said nothing about breeding a good Fjord to a bad mare of any other breed. There are good mares of other breeds that would benefit from some good Fjord characteristics. Every breed has some faults, cross breeding a TB mare for instance with the Fjord can breed out some of the hot and add more bone. This would make a better performance animal. I can understand the idea of keeping a breed pure for survival of the breed. This breed however will not be hurt by crossbreeding of stallions. Other breeds out there could use some of these characteristics. I think the Fjord crosses would excell in many different areas which would in turn help promote the Fjord horse, widening the market! Wake up people, half the sport horses competing for this country in international competitions are cross breeds of one sort or another. Why not promote your horses this way allowing stallions to crossbreed? Thanks Anna From: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: a question for the list Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:54:30 -0500 This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 AM 3/22/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list members: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. If it is the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry that your talking about then the answer is yes that is true. The NFHR does not allow crossbreeding. Here is the exact text of the rule: == In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. == The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Please, explain this issue to me, I hope that this information that I received is incorrect. Looking forward to that response. These are my opinions only. If you want to get the official opinion of the NFHR then contact the President - Dennis Johnson. His email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Laurie Pittman [EMAIL PROTECTED] what harm is there in breeding a stallion to other breeds of mares? The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. Hi Anne, I know that others on the list can explain it better than me, but I can tell you that the few crosses I've seen are anything but an improvement. To make it worse, since the cross tends to look so much like a fjord, the fjord tends to get the blame for the faults. JMO, but I think that the fjord is too unique a breed to mess with or to use to try to improve another breed. Laurie
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: sini seppala [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anna. I don't actually know the system in the US very well but as this was discussed on the list some time ago you might find the emails in the archives? According to the discussion one of the main reasons for the ban in the US was because crosses often look a lot like purebred Fjords. The dun colour is very dominant and many other traits typical of a Fjord seem to be passed on quite easily, too. That's why some Fjord breeders are afraid that it will get out of control - that people won't be able to know which is a Fjord and which is a cross. And that this mixup would lead a lot of problems - prices of pure Fjords and the reputation of pure Fjords being one thing. Best wishes Sini. home page at http://www.saunalahti.fi/~partoy/Juhola6.html
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 AM 3/22/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list members: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. If it is the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry that your talking about then the answer is yes that is true. The NFHR does not allow crossbreeding. Here is the exact text of the rule: == In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. == The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. There isn't anything better than a pure bred Norwegian Fjord. I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Because breeding a Good Fjord Stallion to a BAD mare of another breed will most likely not produce a Better horse. Please, explain this issue to me, I hope that this information that I received is incorrect. Looking forward to that response. These are my opinions only. If you want to get the official opinion of the NFHR then contact the President - Dennis Johnson. His email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike
Re: a question for the list
This message is from: Anna Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list members: I am not a Fjord Association member. I have just one Fjord, I bought him to ride and do breed promos. I was told the other day that the Fjord association does not allow cross breeding and will pull papers on a horse that is cross bred. Well, I do not know if that is true or not, but I find this ridiculous. I can understand the idea of not crossing mares as they can only produce one foal a year and this could harm the breed in the long run since they are not so abundant. On the other hand, what harm is there in breeding a stallion to other breeds of mares? The ultimate goal in breeding anything is to produce something better in terms of conformation, movement, and temperment. I think a Fjord stallion could better a lot of breeds of mares. Why is that wrong? Please, explain this issue to me, I hope that this information that I received is incorrect. Looking forward to that response. Thank you, Anna __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
