[Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News
Hello Nicol, Um…think about that question a moment. There is no such thing as a keyboard with six arrow keys. So no you don’t need a special keyboard to play my 3d games. In answer to your question to climb up or down you would use a keyboard combo like control-up arrow or control-down arrow to ascend or descend a climbable object. The shift-left and shift-right arrow keys are used to sidestep left or right and shift-up and shift-down are used to walk forward or backward. The up arrow key by itself runs forward, down arrow spins you around 180 degrees, and the left and right arrow keys are used to turn you left or right. I’ve recently added control=-left and control-right to do a 90-degree turn left or right as well. As for your paper example that’s way off. The horizontal line, the x axis, runs East-West across the paper. The vertical line, the z axis, runs North-South. However, that’s only a 2d plane. If we stuck your pencil through the center of the page, make a poll running from floor to ceiling, that would constitute a third axis of movement, the y axis, which runs up and down. Does that make any sense? Let’s look at it another way. I know you have played Shades of Doom before. You know in that game you can go North, South, East, and West. But you can’t climb up and down on ropes and things. With my 3d games it will be similar to that accept instead of being able to go North, South, East, and West you can also climb up and down to get to rooms above and below your current location. HTH On 7/18/10, Nicol nicoljaco...@telkomsa.net wrote: HI Tom Yeah, makes sense somewhat. Although, on paper it is not possible to draw a line going up in the air? Is it? On paper the vertical line is the line going from north to eastt and the horizontal line is going from south to west? Then you get the diagonal line that goes oblique. So with a 3d game like you are creating, do I need a keybord with 6 arrow keys? Do I understand you correctly? In your 3d game I will move east and west with my left and right arrow keys, north and south with my up and down arrow keys and from floor to ceiling with yet another 2 additional arrow keys? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]on Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 11 July 2010 09:02 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA News Hi Nicol, No, the line running from left to right and the line running from front to back are completely different. They are perpendicular to each other. That means running in two completely different directions. Let me give you a simple example maybe you can under stand. On a piece of paper you draw a line from left and right, east and west, that represents the x axis of the plane. Now, lets draw a line running from top to bottom of the paper that runs North and South and call that axis y. At this point we have your cross shape that points to the four compass directions North, South, East, and West. Finally, we are going to add a third dimension to this sheet of paper by driving a stake through the center of that cross. We now have a new axis running from floor to ceiling and we will call that axis z. When we get done we have three lines all pointing to six different cardinal directions East, West, North, South, floor, and the ceiling. Make sense? HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release Date: 11/11/09 09:40:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News
I don't even think there are keyboards with six arrows, so if you did need one you'd pretty much be out of luck. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:29 PM Subject: [Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News Hello Nicol, Um…think about that question a moment. There is no such thing as a keyboard with six arrow keys. So no you don’t need a special keyboard to play my 3d games. In answer to your question to climb up or down you would use a keyboard combo like control-up arrow or control-down arrow to ascend or descend a climbable object. The shift-left and shift-right arrow keys are used to sidestep left or right and shift-up and shift-down are used to walk forward or backward. The up arrow key by itself runs forward, down arrow spins you around 180 degrees, and the left and right arrow keys are used to turn you left or right. I’ve recently added control=-left and control-right to do a 90-degree turn left or right as well. As for your paper example that’s way off. The horizontal line, the x axis, runs East-West across the paper. The vertical line, the z axis, runs North-South. However, that’s only a 2d plane. If we stuck your pencil through the center of the page, make a poll running from floor to ceiling, that would constitute a third axis of movement, the y axis, which runs up and down. Does that make any sense? Let’s look at it another way. I know you have played Shades of Doom before. You know in that game you can go North, South, East, and West. But you can’t climb up and down on ropes and things. With my 3d games it will be similar to that accept instead of being able to go North, South, East, and West you can also climb up and down to get to rooms above and below your current location. HTH On 7/18/10, Nicol nicoljaco...@telkomsa.net wrote: HI Tom Yeah, makes sense somewhat. Although, on paper it is not possible to draw a line going up in the air? Is it? On paper the vertical line is the line going from north to eastt and the horizontal line is going from south to west? Then you get the diagonal line that goes oblique. So with a 3d game like you are creating, do I need a keybord with 6 arrow keys? Do I understand you correctly? In your 3d game I will move east and west with my left and right arrow keys, north and south with my up and down arrow keys and from floor to ceiling with yet another 2 additional arrow keys? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]on Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 11 July 2010 09:02 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA News Hi Nicol, No, the line running from left to right and the line running from front to back are completely different. They are perpendicular to each other. That means running in two completely different directions. Let me give you a simple example maybe you can under stand. On a piece of paper you draw a line from left and right, east and west, that represents the x axis of the plane. Now, lets draw a line running from top to bottom of the paper that runs North and South and call that axis y. At this point we have your cross shape that points to the four compass directions North, South, East, and West. Finally, we are going to add a third dimension to this sheet of paper by driving a stake through the center of that cross. We now have a new axis running from floor to ceiling and we will call that axis z. When we get done we have three lines all pointing to six different cardinal directions East, West, North, South, floor, and the ceiling. Make sense? HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release Date: 11/11/09 09:40:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News
Hi,, Well, we always could create one of those, but that would first cost a loat, and second way to much efford put into a game if you have modifiers and can use them. I like the way that modifier up arrow moves up,, and a modifier and down moves down. I myself have no problems with that. Also I really love the fact that in most games you can use ctrl left and right, or any other modifier to turn 90 Degrees into a direction. I find that especially helpful when navigating a large room, or maze, like in pac man or Shades of doom. I know I am one of the not many people who really like 3D games, but I really really badly enjoy playing 3d Games. Especially if it has been made well, so that you can walk around and explore. An independependend ambience, so that objects themself make sounds, not a always the same staying ambience. Like in Monkey business. Every singe ambience sound has been made by some sort of object that you can see on the map. Maybe not interact with, but it is there. My thoughts. Kevin - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:34:02 -0600 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News I don't even think there are keyboards with six arrows, so if you did need one you'd pretty much be out of luck. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:29 PM Subject: [Audyssey] 3D Navigation was Important MOTA News Hello Nicol, Um think about that question a moment. There is no such thing as a keyboard with six arrow keys. So no you dont need a special keyboard to play my 3d games. In answer to your question to climb up or down you would use a keyboard combo like control-up arrow or control-down arrow to ascend or descend a climbable object. The shift-left and shift-right arrow keys are used to sidestep left or right and shift-up and shift-down are used to walk forward or backward. The up arrow key by itself runs forward, down arrow spins you around 180 degrees, and the left and right arrow keys are used to turn you left or right. Ive recently added control=-left and control-right to do a 90-degree turn left or right as well. As for your paper example thats way off. The horizontal line, the x axis, runs East-West across the paper. The vertical line, the z axis, runs North-South. However, thats only a 2d plane. If we stuck your pencil through the center of the page, make a poll running from floor to ceiling, that would constitute a third axis of movement, the y axis, which runs up and down. Does that make any sense? Lets look at it another way. I know you have played Shades of Doom before. You know in that game you can go North, South, East, and West. But you cant climb up and down on ropes and things. With my 3d games it will be similar to that accept instead of being able to go North, South, East, and West you can also climb up and down to get to rooms above and below your current location. HTH On 7/18/10, Nicol nicoljaco...@telkomsa.net wrote: HI Tom Yeah, makes sense somewhat. Although, on paper it is not possible to draw a line going up in the air? Is it? On paper the vertical line is the line going from north to eastt and the horizontal line is going from south to west? Then you get the diagonal line that goes oblique. So with a 3d game like you are creating, do I need a keybord with 6 arrow keys? Do I understand you correctly? In your 3d game I will move east and west with my left and right arrow keys, north and south with my up and down arrow keys and from floor to ceiling with yet another 2 additional arrow keys? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]on Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 11 July 2010 09:02 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA News Hi Nicol, No, the line running from left to right and the line running from front to back are completely different. They are perpendicular to each other. That means running in two completely different directions. Let me give you a simple example maybe you can under stand. On a piece of paper you draw a line from left and right, east and west, that represents the x axis of the plane. Now, lets draw a line running from top to bottom of the paper that runs North and South and call that axis y. At this point we have your cross shape that points to the four compass directions North, South, East, and West. Finally, we are going to add a third dimension to this sheet of paper by driving a stake through the center of that cross. We now have a new axis running from floor to ceiling and we will call that axis z. When we get done we have three lines all pointing to six
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Treasurehunt I actually find rather difficult myself, due to the total lack of any sort of audio ambience or ability to place markers, -everything just looks the same to me. Shades I find significantly easier. I don't particularly mind handling the direction facing commands in something like shades, so long as there is something to distinguish in the different directions. beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Personally, in regards to 3D navigation, I am about the same as you Dark. I personally prefer something similar to treasure hunt; I find it easier to keep track of when each arrow does something different in regards to direction. Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Actually, the first generation of 3D games such as original doom did use the left right to turn method (one reason why audio quake has those controls), and other games like tomb rader or mario 64 use the analogue stick, --- with a short left press turning the character, and a long left hold causing them to run in the correct direction. It's also worth remembering that audio 3D games are first person, while visual ones like resident evil are actually third person, ie, you see the character on the screen and the environment around him/her, which has a profound effect on the control scheme, as if everything turned with the character, you would lose the perspective of what is around them. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 5:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios I like the side-steping idea... I mean, isn't that akin to what you do in mainstream console games that are 3d? If you hold left, you don't just spin around in circles... you walk and or run in that direction. The only gae I've seen it done diferently is resident evil... and maybe the first three onimusha games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Hi Dark, As a game developer I find your comments and suggestions most helpful. So as I understand it as long as I design my game engine a long the GMA engine, which I am, including such features as place markers, visited here before announcements, and even try my best to give each room a name you and possably others should be able to give you enough info to go on in order to play the game right? dark wrote: Hi. As regards 3D navigation, in fact navigation in general, as I've said, i'm probably the worst person you meet, with a biological cause sinse I was born prematurely and suffered brain damage which has resulted in me having an attrocious sense of spacial coordination and balance. Frequently I'll see something or hit it with my cane, but stil walk into it becauwse my ability to judge distance is so bad. i also find rotional exercises absolutely awful. How I manage in 3D games however, is much the same way I manage in actual life, and perhaps it's a method which would help others. i physically don't even try to mentally map where I am going, or where the relation betwene places is. I simply remember landmarks and sets of directions. thus in shades of doom, if there is a T junction, I'll mark the passage I came up, and the passage I go down, then leave the other unmarked. i thus only have to remember occasions where the path forks, and where there is more than one choice of direction, --- -then mark those, and remember the choice I took. when I've finished down one passage, I retrace my steps until i find something I've not yet explored, and try that. also, i make extensive use of the navigation features, and use the various sizes of chamber as land marks, as well as the audio kews around, and (in sarah), the names of the rooms. Yes, this method is bizarre, and yes I sometimes get lost, but it does work for me quite a lot of the time. It's also how I remember routes in real life, not by remembering actual directions, but by simply memorizing lists of land marks and what I should do, eg, turn right when i get to the tactile paving, or when i can smell a certain coffee shop. the one game this uttelry fails in is monkey business, firstly because your running around all over the place looking for those bloody monkies and often end up getting lost catching them, --, secondly because the areas in the game seem far more open than in something like shades, and thirdly (and probably most importantly), i find the navigation keys in monkey business distinctly unreliable, and not great at showing the environment or highlighting objects around you. just my thoughts. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet beyond the turning was a cattle grid, so all I neded to do to find it was go too far, reach the grid and turn back. needless to say, i called the mobility officer some very colourful names after that. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi Dark, As a game developer I find your comments and suggestions most helpful. So as I understand it as long as I design my game engine a long the GMA engine, which I am, including such features as place markers, visited here before announcements, and even try my best to give each room a name you and possably others should be able to give you enough info to go on in order to play the game right? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Interesting point about coordinates Dark. With your taste for RPG's that tend to have a lot more number crunching and stats to take in, I'd have expected you to rely pretty heavily on those. Personally I can't make numbers relate to situations in the slightest in any game, even remembering simple things like what coordinates the fires are at in MOTA is beyond me, numbers of steps or coordinates and the like just won't tie themselves to spacial considerations in my mind for some reason. I rely on audio cues or clues instead, which sometimes means going past a turning to recognise what's beyond it yup, and those combined with the navigation features of whatever game I'm playing usually serve me well. It does mean that I tend to take a much less military approach in something like GMA Tank Commander I suppose, but Mr Brain seems to prefer the free roaming feeling and there's not much I can do to persuade him otherwise. Scott On 12/26/09, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet beyond the turning was a cattle grid, so all I neded to do to find it was go too far, reach the grid and turn back. needless to say, i called the mobility officer some very colourful names after that. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi Dark, As a game developer I find your comments and suggestions most helpful. So as I understand it as long as I design my game engine a long the GMA engine, which I am, including such features as place markers, visited here before announcements, and even try my best to give each room a name you and possably others should be able to give you enough info to go on in order to play the game right? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Well scot, for me the number crunching is always subordinate to the game and the exploration of that game, --- so working out the best weapon and stratogy in a numerical rpg system helps because I can then go more places and do more things, not just fight stronger monsters. coordinates I tend to think of in the same way. i can't really map out pathways betwene coordinates if the path winds as in shades of doom. In games with flat coordinates and no obstacles such as galaxy ranger, I do use them quite a lot, but only on a flat horizontal and vertical line usually, and I also work out weapon ranges based on coordinates. this isn't really spacial though, it's more knowing that if the enemy command center in Gma tank commander is 1000 meters away, that's how much i have to elivate my gun barrel to fire the shells. generally how much I use coordinates depends upon the game, and the more mazelike it is, the less I use them sinse mapping paths betwene different coordinates is something my brain won't cope with either. In shades, sarah or entombed I never touch the coordinates command at all. beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Interesting point about coordinates Dark. With your taste for RPG's that tend to have a lot more number crunching and stats to take in, I'd have expected you to rely pretty heavily on those. Personally I can't make numbers relate to situations in the slightest in any game, even remembering simple things like what coordinates the fires are at in MOTA is beyond me, numbers of steps or coordinates and the like just won't tie themselves to spacial considerations in my mind for some reason. I rely on audio cues or clues instead, which sometimes means going past a turning to recognise what's beyond it yup, and those combined with the navigation features of whatever game I'm playing usually serve me well. It does mean that I tend to take a much less military approach in something like GMA Tank Commander I suppose, but Mr Brain seems to prefer the free roaming feeling and there's not much I can do to persuade him otherwise. Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Hi Dark, Ok? Sounds like your mobility instructor was an idiot. Never once in my life has a mobility instructor told me to count steps. Quite the opposite in fact. They usually cued me into land marks, sounds, and other things I could use to assess where I was without depending on something as unreliable as counting steps. Were it my instructors they would have told me about the grill so I would know if I went too far and passed my turn off point. Sheesh. Anyway, getting back on track with games when I play Sarah or Shades of Doom I use a lot of my own mobility training while playing. There are several things I use, and they are pretty basic. First, is the audio environment itself. Today with advanced audio APIs like XAudio 2 and X3DAudio, FMOD Ex, or OpenAL it is pretty easy to program a game to use 5.1 or 7.1 3d audio environments fairly easily. Combine that with a good high quality 5.1 or 7.1 stereo sound card and a set of 5.1 3d stereo headphones and you have a pretty realistic audio sound system at your disposal. Unfortunately, lots of VI gamers haven't got the high tech equipment to get the most out of Shades of Doom or Sarah so they never quite get a true 3d audio environment which is too bad. For me I have lots of high tech gear for my games so when I'm in Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, or Sarah it sounds like I am standing there in the game. I can hear everything around me in 3d space, and I can use the sound to navigate around the level. Plus it helps to count doors, and the various machines in a game like SOD to identify which room is wich. Second, is the look ahead commands which comes in handy. If you can do a control+n and have it tell you the corridor turns left in 5 feet and makes a hard left in 15 feet you obviously can get a good idea where to go. This feature isn't that much different than seeing it as you get exactly the same information and have to make the same judgment weather to try the first corridor or go down the second one. I make lots of use of the control+n command in Shades of Doom. Finaly, I am pretty good with using coordinates to remember my location. If I want to know where I am I usually go for the coordinates key. For me that usually is enough to figure out exactly where I am, and gives me a good idea where to go next. Of course, that's only useful if I've been playing a game for a long time and walk around with a map of the level in my head. Come to think of it that is another tool I use, and helps me out alot. Having had sighte before i tend to see myself, my character anyway, in the game world and visualize the entire level in my mind. By being able to draw upon a mental picture in my mind it gives me somewhat of an edge in putting things in their correct 3d sspacial orientation to the character. Without a doubt that has to be a slight advantage when playing these sorts of games and figuring them out. Cheers! dark wrote: Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet beyond the turning was a cattle grid, so all I neded to do to find it was go too far, reach the grid and turn back. needless to say, i called the mobility officer some very colourful names after that. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
That sounds like my mom's former neighbor, whom I need hardly point out had never been around a blind person before meeting me. She also thought the cane would magically tell you where the doors to the store were regardless of where you parked the car. Now if it'd been something like the EVA in Shades of Doom it might have worked out that way, but let's face it. I doubt we're likely to see anything like that in the near future. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi Dark, Ok? Sounds like your mobility instructor was an idiot. Never once in my life has a mobility instructor told me to count steps. Quite the opposite in fact. They usually cued me into land marks, sounds, and other things I could use to assess where I was without depending on something as unreliable as counting steps. Were it my instructors they would have told me about the grill so I would know if I went too far and passed my turn off point. Sheesh. Anyway, getting back on track with games when I play Sarah or Shades of Doom I use a lot of my own mobility training while playing. There are several things I use, and they are pretty basic. First, is the audio environment itself. Today with advanced audio APIs like XAudio 2 and X3DAudio, FMOD Ex, or OpenAL it is pretty easy to program a game to use 5.1 or 7.1 3d audio environments fairly easily. Combine that with a good high quality 5.1 or 7.1 stereo sound card and a set of 5.1 3d stereo headphones and you have a pretty realistic audio sound system at your disposal. Unfortunately, lots of VI gamers haven't got the high tech equipment to get the most out of Shades of Doom or Sarah so they never quite get a true 3d audio environment which is too bad. For me I have lots of high tech gear for my games so when I'm in Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, or Sarah it sounds like I am standing there in the game. I can hear everything around me in 3d space, and I can use the sound to navigate around the level. Plus it helps to count doors, and the various machines in a game like SOD to identify which room is wich. Second, is the look ahead commands which comes in handy. If you can do a control+n and have it tell you the corridor turns left in 5 feet and makes a hard left in 15 feet you obviously can get a good idea where to go. This feature isn't that much different than seeing it as you get exactly the same information and have to make the same judgment weather to try the first corridor or go down the second one. I make lots of use of the control+n command in Shades of Doom. Finaly, I am pretty good with using coordinates to remember my location. If I want to know where I am I usually go for the coordinates key. For me that usually is enough to figure out exactly where I am, and gives me a good idea where to go next. Of course, that's only useful if I've been playing a game for a long time and walk around with a map of the level in my head. Come to think of it that is another tool I use, and helps me out alot. Having had sighte before i tend to see myself, my character anyway, in the game world and visualize the entire level in my mind. By being able to draw upon a mental picture in my mind it gives me somewhat of an edge in putting things in their correct 3d sspacial orientation to the character. Without a doubt that has to be a slight advantage when playing these sorts of games and figuring them out. Cheers! dark wrote: Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Yes mine too though my mobility instructor was worse than me laughing. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:33 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi Dark, Ok? Sounds like your mobility instructor was an idiot. Never once in my life has a mobility instructor told me to count steps. Quite the opposite in fact. They usually cued me into land marks, sounds, and other things I could use to assess where I was without depending on something as unreliable as counting steps. Were it my instructors they would have told me about the grill so I would know if I went too far and passed my turn off point. Sheesh. Anyway, getting back on track with games when I play Sarah or Shades of Doom I use a lot of my own mobility training while playing. There are several things I use, and they are pretty basic. First, is the audio environment itself. Today with advanced audio APIs like XAudio 2 and X3DAudio, FMOD Ex, or OpenAL it is pretty easy to program a game to use 5.1 or 7.1 3d audio environments fairly easily. Combine that with a good high quality 5.1 or 7.1 stereo sound card and a set of 5.1 3d stereo headphones and you have a pretty realistic audio sound system at your disposal. Unfortunately, lots of VI gamers haven't got the high tech equipment to get the most out of Shades of Doom or Sarah so they never quite get a true 3d audio environment which is too bad. For me I have lots of high tech gear for my games so when I'm in Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, or Sarah it sounds like I am standing there in the game. I can hear everything around me in 3d space, and I can use the sound to navigate around the level. Plus it helps to count doors, and the various machines in a game like SOD to identify which room is wich. Second, is the look ahead commands which comes in handy. If you can do a control+n and have it tell you the corridor turns left in 5 feet and makes a hard left in 15 feet you obviously can get a good idea where to go. This feature isn't that much different than seeing it as you get exactly the same information and have to make the same judgment weather to try the first corridor or go down the second one. I make lots of use of the control+n command in Shades of Doom. Finaly, I am pretty good with using coordinates to remember my location. If I want to know where I am I usually go for the coordinates key. For me that usually is enough to figure out exactly where I am, and gives me a good idea where to go next. Of course, that's only useful if I've been playing a game for a long time and walk around with a map of the level in my head. Come to think of it that is another tool I use, and helps me out alot. Having had sighte before i tend to see myself, my character anyway, in the game world and visualize the entire level in my mind. By being able to draw upon a mental picture in my mind it gives me somewhat of an edge in putting things in their correct 3d sspacial orientation to the character. Without a doubt that has to be a slight advantage when playing these sorts of games and figuring them out. Cheers! dark wrote: Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet beyond the turning was a cattle grid, so all I neded to do to find it was go too far, reach the grid and turn back. needless to say, i called the mobility officer some very colourful names after that. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Interesting...counting steps? Just walk 9234 to the store, then 23056 to the restaurant for lunch... Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of mike maslo Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:02 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Yes mine too though my mobility instructor was worse than me laughing. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:33 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi Dark, Ok? Sounds like your mobility instructor was an idiot. Never once in my life has a mobility instructor told me to count steps. Quite the opposite in fact. They usually cued me into land marks, sounds, and other things I could use to assess where I was without depending on something as unreliable as counting steps. Were it my instructors they would have told me about the grill so I would know if I went too far and passed my turn off point. Sheesh. Anyway, getting back on track with games when I play Sarah or Shades of Doom I use a lot of my own mobility training while playing. There are several things I use, and they are pretty basic. First, is the audio environment itself. Today with advanced audio APIs like XAudio 2 and X3DAudio, FMOD Ex, or OpenAL it is pretty easy to program a game to use 5.1 or 7.1 3d audio environments fairly easily. Combine that with a good high quality 5.1 or 7.1 stereo sound card and a set of 5.1 3d stereo headphones and you have a pretty realistic audio sound system at your disposal. Unfortunately, lots of VI gamers haven't got the high tech equipment to get the most out of Shades of Doom or Sarah so they never quite get a true 3d audio environment which is too bad. For me I have lots of high tech gear for my games so when I'm in Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, or Sarah it sounds like I am standing there in the game. I can hear everything around me in 3d space, and I can use the sound to navigate around the level. Plus it helps to count doors, and the various machines in a game like SOD to identify which room is wich. Second, is the look ahead commands which comes in handy. If you can do a control+n and have it tell you the corridor turns left in 5 feet and makes a hard left in 15 feet you obviously can get a good idea where to go. This feature isn't that much different than seeing it as you get exactly the same information and have to make the same judgment weather to try the first corridor or go down the second one. I make lots of use of the control+n command in Shades of Doom. Finaly, I am pretty good with using coordinates to remember my location. If I want to know where I am I usually go for the coordinates key. For me that usually is enough to figure out exactly where I am, and gives me a good idea where to go next. Of course, that's only useful if I've been playing a game for a long time and walk around with a map of the level in my head. Come to think of it that is another tool I use, and helps me out alot. Having had sighte before i tend to see myself, my character anyway, in the game world and visualize the entire level in my mind. By being able to draw upon a mental picture in my mind it gives me somewhat of an edge in putting things in their correct 3d sspacial orientation to the character. Without a doubt that has to be a slight advantage when playing these sorts of games and figuring them out. Cheers! dark wrote: Short answer, yes, those features are what I use exhaustively. On the other hand audio maps I'm afraid I find just incomprehensible, cool though the marauders' map in Sarah was. Even coordinates I only tend to use as a general guideline to know if I'm in the middle or at the edge of a level, or as an extra land mark feature (eg, i need to explore the turning at 8-23). this is of course just the way i do things, and other people (who do not have my spacial difficulties), may do things entirely differently. Interestingly enough, I'll be having my mobility assessment with guide dogs on january the eighth, so I've been thinking about this (and explaining iot to the guide dogs service people), sinse I've often found myself at a loss with mobility officers who insist! upon using things like step counting or route mental mapping which my brain just won't cope with. i remember one awful incident when learning my way around secondary school, there was a turning I needed to make. The bloody stupid mobility officer did it with me inumerable times, counting steps and being generally stupid! I eventually asked my mum (who is also visually impared), and she instantly pointed out that four feet beyond the turning was a cattle grid
[Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Hi. As regards 3D navigation, in fact navigation in general, as I've said, i'm probably the worst person you meet, with a biological cause sinse I was born prematurely and suffered brain damage which has resulted in me having an attrocious sense of spacial coordination and balance. Frequently I'll see something or hit it with my cane, but stil walk into it becauwse my ability to judge distance is so bad. i also find rotional exercises absolutely awful. How I manage in 3D games however, is much the same way I manage in actual life, and perhaps it's a method which would help others. i physically don't even try to mentally map where I am going, or where the relation betwene places is. I simply remember landmarks and sets of directions. thus in shades of doom, if there is a T junction, I'll mark the passage I came up, and the passage I go down, then leave the other unmarked. i thus only have to remember occasions where the path forks, and where there is more than one choice of direction, --- -then mark those, and remember the choice I took. when I've finished down one passage, I retrace my steps until i find something I've not yet explored, and try that. also, i make extensive use of the navigation features, and use the various sizes of chamber as land marks, as well as the audio kews around, and (in sarah), the names of the rooms. Yes, this method is bizarre, and yes I sometimes get lost, but it does work for me quite a lot of the time. It's also how I remember routes in real life, not by remembering actual directions, but by simply memorizing lists of land marks and what I should do, eg, turn right when i get to the tactile paving, or when i can smell a certain coffee shop. the one game this uttelry fails in is monkey business, firstly because your running around all over the place looking for those bloody monkies and often end up getting lost catching them, --, secondly because the areas in the game seem far more open than in something like shades, and thirdly (and probably most importantly), i find the navigation keys in monkey business distinctly unreliable, and not great at showing the environment or highlighting objects around you. just my thoughts. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
Personally, in regards to 3D navigation, I am about the same as you Dark. I personally prefer something similar to treasure hunt; I find it easier to keep track of when each arrow does something different in regards to direction. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 9:10 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi. As regards 3D navigation, in fact navigation in general, as I've said, i'm probably the worst person you meet, with a biological cause sinse I was born prematurely and suffered brain damage which has resulted in me having an attrocious sense of spacial coordination and balance. Frequently I'll see something or hit it with my cane, but stil walk into it becauwse my ability to judge distance is so bad. i also find rotional exercises absolutely awful. How I manage in 3D games however, is much the same way I manage in actual life, and perhaps it's a method which would help others. i physically don't even try to mentally map where I am going, or where the relation betwene places is. I simply remember landmarks and sets of directions. thus in shades of doom, if there is a T junction, I'll mark the passage I came up, and the passage I go down, then leave the other unmarked. i thus only have to remember occasions where the path forks, and where there is more than one choice of direction, --- -then mark those, and remember the choice I took. when I've finished down one passage, I retrace my steps until i find something I've not yet explored, and try that. also, i make extensive use of the navigation features, and use the various sizes of chamber as land marks, as well as the audio kews around, and (in sarah), the names of the rooms. Yes, this method is bizarre, and yes I sometimes get lost, but it does work for me quite a lot of the time. It's also how I remember routes in real life, not by remembering actual directions, but by simply memorizing lists of land marks and what I should do, eg, turn right when i get to the tactile paving, or when i can smell a certain coffee shop. the one game this uttelry fails in is monkey business, firstly because your running around all over the place looking for those bloody monkies and often end up getting lost catching them, --, secondly because the areas in the game seem far more open than in something like shades, and thirdly (and probably most importantly), i find the navigation keys in monkey business distinctly unreliable, and not great at showing the environment or highlighting objects around you. just my thoughts. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios
I like the side-steping idea... I mean, isn't that akin to what you do in mainstream console games that are 3d? If you hold left, you don't just spin around in circles... you walk and or run in that direction. The only gae I've seen it done diferently is resident evil... and maybe the first three onimusha games. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 7:10 PM Subject: [Audyssey] 3D navigation was: The future of Blastbay Studios Hi. As regards 3D navigation, in fact navigation in general, as I've said, i'm probably the worst person you meet, with a biological cause sinse I was born prematurely and suffered brain damage which has resulted in me having an attrocious sense of spacial coordination and balance. Frequently I'll see something or hit it with my cane, but stil walk into it becauwse my ability to judge distance is so bad. i also find rotional exercises absolutely awful. How I manage in 3D games however, is much the same way I manage in actual life, and perhaps it's a method which would help others. i physically don't even try to mentally map where I am going, or where the relation betwene places is. I simply remember landmarks and sets of directions. thus in shades of doom, if there is a T junction, I'll mark the passage I came up, and the passage I go down, then leave the other unmarked. i thus only have to remember occasions where the path forks, and where there is more than one choice of direction, --- -then mark those, and remember the choice I took. when I've finished down one passage, I retrace my steps until i find something I've not yet explored, and try that. also, i make extensive use of the navigation features, and use the various sizes of chamber as land marks, as well as the audio kews around, and (in sarah), the names of the rooms. Yes, this method is bizarre, and yes I sometimes get lost, but it does work for me quite a lot of the time. It's also how I remember routes in real life, not by remembering actual directions, but by simply memorizing lists of land marks and what I should do, eg, turn right when i get to the tactile paving, or when i can smell a certain coffee shop. the one game this uttelry fails in is monkey business, firstly because your running around all over the place looking for those bloody monkies and often end up getting lost catching them, --, secondly because the areas in the game seem far more open than in something like shades, and thirdly (and probably most importantly), i find the navigation keys in monkey business distinctly unreliable, and not great at showing the environment or highlighting objects around you. just my thoughts. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Along the lines of this version of 3D rendering, I tried out using the vOICe to help render a slightly better version of the audio quake screen with graphics turned on, and while didn't try too much, it definitely gave me a bit more of a 'warning' about things like walls, and their angles since it let me know about them before the audio cues implemented in audio quake itsself did, and this is making use of the vOICe's GUI rendering facility. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Tom. On the matter of sound, well I've never had the full 5.1 but have always used a pair of very good headphones, and the virtual 3D support in the Gma engine has always done very well. On the sensary front though, - while obviously including smell and touch in a game is beyond the limits of current technology, you could put in some assistive audio to in a sense take their place. For example, varying step sounds for different surfaces, - even within the same general area given the land marks, rather the way Superliam used the different step bounderies to indicate hazards in the path. then, as already mentioned, make the wall bump sound sterrio, so you can tell when the wall is ahead or to one side. You might considder using a wall trailing sound as Terraformers did, to allow you to trail along one wall in audio, rather the way many people would trail along a wall by touch in real life. Just my thoughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4566 (20091102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4569 (20091103) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Using only audio feedback isn't as good when it comes to navigation as it is if you can smell, feel, and sense your surroundings. We haven't gotten to that point in gaming yet. (ornery grin) --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Charles Rivard Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 12:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Charles, I due to RPs tunnel vision became legally blind at 21 and had to give up driving at that point. I could still see pretty good until I was about 30. So I still think that I have pretty good spacial visualization skills. And with some exploring I get around new environments pretty darn good. But when it comes to games, I am one of those who just walks around and around running into walls and getting frustrated. Could be because I do not have surround sound speakers or headphones or sound card, But could also be because in the real world there is tactile feedback, wind, smells, being able to stand, listen, turn your head back and forth etc etc. I think that it also has some to do with how much you really really want to be able to play the game and how many times and how much frustration you are willing to put up with to get it. Some people have had allot of trouble with Pong, Homer on a Harley, Puppy 1, Mach 1 and Mach 1 tts. Just can not get the play of the game pictured in their head I guess. I did buy a Book Sense XT and some professional stereo ear bud sort of type microphones. I recorded a walk out to the flag pole and back. I think that it sounds awesome! Don't know if one could get such realism in a game or not. BFN Jim Reality is the only obstacle to happiness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Charles, I due to RPs tunnel vision became legally blind at 21 and had to give up driving at that point. I could still see pretty good until I was about 30. So I still think that I have pretty good spacial visualization skills. And with some exploring I get around new environments pretty darn good. But when it comes to games, I am one of those who just walks around and around running into walls and getting frustrated. Could be because I do not have surround sound speakers or headphones or sound card, But could also be because in the real world there is tactile feedback, wind, smells, being able to stand, listen, turn your head back and forth etc etc. I think that it also has some to do with how much you really really want to be able to play the game and how many times and how much frustration you are willing to put up with to get it. Some people have had allot of trouble with Pong, Homer on a Harley, Puppy 1, Mach 1 and Mach 1 tts. Just can not get the play of the game pictured in their head I guess. I did buy a Book Sense XT and some professional stereo ear bud sort of type microphones. I recorded a walk out to the flag pole and back. I think that it sounds awesome! Don't know if one could get such realism in a game or not. BFN Jim Reality is the only obstacle to happiness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Kelly, That very well may be. Although, one thing I've noticed about Monkey Business in particular is you really have to depend a lot on audio landmarks. Take the jungle for example. You have a lot of very good clues to let you know exactly where you are in the jungle. You have the bee hive, the various waterfalls, quicksand, various stones represented by birds, and then even the ambiance of the jungle changes slightly depending on where you are in the jungle. If you are good at picking out these sounds and using them as a guide that game is easy enough to get around even without the GMA style view commands. Kellie and my lovable Lady J. wrote: This is much how I think as well. Though I also had perfect vision or the first 8 years and remember things clearly. I actually think in visually terms still and can read maps pretty easily. But maybe that is why I don't have as hard of a time navigating in monkey business. My husband is also good at monkey business and he saw until he was 15 so who knows. Kellie and my lovable Lady J. Resident Adviser, Guide Dogs for the Blind Oregon campus www.guidedogs.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Peter, Hmmm...Well in Shades of Doom and Sarah too there are commands to mark your location.That way if you run across a marker you know you've been there before. Plus Shades of doom does let you find doors and exits with the x key. Both also have a way to check if you've visited that spot before. However, in Sarah you need the Remember All to get the visited here reminder. I wonder if these features would help you much, and how much success you have had using them? As far as background ambiance goes I certainly plan to do all I can in terms of providing that kind of feedback. Obvious things like lava pits, fire, dripping ledges, swinging ropes, etc does a good job of providing an audio landmark of where you are. I could also add visited here commands to let you know if you've been in a certain room or not before. peter Mahach wrote: well thomas, I'm not exactly sure, however I can give a great example of a game I could quickly get out of circling, that game being entombed. the first thing that could tell me I'm iomewhere I explored was the squishing sound of enemy corpses and the coordinates key said if I have been or have not been here before. but the cool part is the slash key. it gives a message of something like this. nearest unexplored space: west, 1. north, 2. east, 3. north, 2. west, 7... and so on.you could call it a gps of sorts that doesn't spoil anything but it can certainly lead you out of circling. but being the game is more based on squares like treasure hunt I see a different way that'd be more suited for an full fps game. up on pressing a key you could hear something like area locator on. go straight... turn east here... climb this ladder... or something like that until you reach the area. then it could say unexplored space located. area navigator off. another thing could be sound landmarks. for instance in monkey business almost on every level there are different ambiences that only add to the atmosphere yet aid in navigation. ah, I've been here before... so let's go another way. I know this isn't suited for something like mota unless you could use different drips, wind howls for different areas but in something like a star trek game that could work better with sounds of people working with pads... the warp core in the middle of the room... etc. hth. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Dark, Yes, I am a fan of mazes too. Not to mention in games such as the Tomb Hunter series I'm starting mazes would be quite appropriate for that genre of game. After all mazes would be an effective deterrent for the casual tomb robber and treasure hunter. Plus it would be just another type of puzzle you --- the gamer --- would have to solve in order to beat the game. One thing I've always enjoyed about the Tomb Raider games is it's not all about slaying monsters and collecting ancient treasure. A good portion of that series of games has to do with puzzle solving and figuring out riddles. It is often challenging and fun, but not for someone who is impatient. Not all of the puzzles/riddles are that easy to figure out unless you are the type who looks up the answers in a walkthrough. Anyway, using 3d mazes, although it might be confusing, certainly would be a challenging part of the game. For those who enjoy such challenges it would be all a part of the game's replay value. For those people who like puzzles all of the mazes would be a new puzzle to solve. Smile. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Dark, A good point. Not to mention if I'm intentionally creating a maze in the Tomb Hunter games like David with Shades of Doom an unexplored navigator might be too much like a cheat. A simple visited here reminder should be enough to tell you that you've explored this location before. Plus the ambient effects such as dripping water, windy passages, swinging ropes, lava pits, whatever should be a clue you've been in this room before as well. dark wrote: I'm not sure on the unexplored space navigator, sinse discovering ropes to climb etc would be part of the challenge of the game for me. Maybe it could tell you roughly where the nearest unexplored area was, and leave getting there up to you, Eg, east 30 meters, or down 10 if it was space on another floor. I totally agree with peter here about the ambient sounds, though i well suspect this is already planned for Mota anyway. this is something I've used significantly in Shades, Sarah and Gma tank commander, which has helped hugely! Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Jim, Certainly having a 5.1 surround sound headphones and sound card certainly helps, but it isn't always necessary to play an FPS game like Shades of Doom. I know in Shades of Doom it can be configured for standard stereo headphones and speakers or for a full 5.1 surround sound system. Even without a 5.1 surround sound setup I did play and beat the game. Having that kind of audio setup added to the realism, made things easier, but wasn't necessary for me to beat the game. However, I think you brought up a good point about games lacking good tactile feedback. All of us use some form of tactile feedback in the real world such as trailing walls and sidewalks, get feedback from our canes and our feet, pick up smells, listen for audio cues, etc. As a result we can generally depend on four of our five senses. In a game we depend specifically on audio alone, and I guess some people aren't able to travel based on audio alone. Jim Kitchen wrote: Hi Charles, I due to RPs tunnel vision became legally blind at 21 and had to give up driving at that point. I could still see pretty good until I was about 30. So I still think that I have pretty good spacial visualization skills. And with some exploring I get around new environments pretty darn good. But when it comes to games, I am one of those who just walks around and around running into walls and getting frustrated. Could be because I do not have surround sound speakers or headphones or sound card, But could also be because in the real world there is tactile feedback, wind, smells, being able to stand, listen, turn your head back and forth etc etc. I think that it also has some to do with how much you really really want to be able to play the game and how many times and how much frustration you are willing to put up with to get it. Some people have had allot of trouble with Pong, Homer on a Harley, Puppy 1, Mach 1 and Mach 1 tts. Just can not get the play of the game pictured in their head I guess. I did buy a Book Sense XT and some professional stereo ear bud sort of type microphones. I recorded a walk out to the flag pole and back. I think that it sounds awesome! Don't know if one could get such realism in a game or not. BFN Jim Reality is the only obstacle to happiness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Tom. On the matter of sound, well I've never had the full 5.1 but have always used a pair of very good headphones, and the virtual 3D support in the Gma engine has always done very well. On the sensary front though, - while obviously including smell and touch in a game is beyond the limits of current technology, you could put in some assistive audio to in a sense take their place. For example, varying step sounds for different surfaces, - even within the same general area given the land marks, rather the way Superliam used the different step bounderies to indicate hazards in the path. then, as already mentioned, make the wall bump sound sterrio, so you can tell when the wall is ahead or to one side. You might considder using a wall trailing sound as Terraformers did, to allow you to trail along one wall in audio, rather the way many people would trail along a wall by touch in real life. Just my thoughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Thomas, I certainly can't picture my room as a whole like that. I have never seen pictures as I've been blind since birth, so picturing the room that way is quite impossible. I can just picture the items in relation to each other. I too have spacial orientation issues. in fact I'm not good at mobility at all. I don't know why this is, and I'm very curious since I know friends that have been totally blind their entire lives and have no problems. for me to learn a new area it takes a lot of memorization and practice. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally agree with you about the Gma engine, and find myself quite able to use land mark systems in games like Shades or Gma tank commander, and if your engine works on a similar principle I'm confident I'll be able to make use
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
hmmm my room, well it is semi square. like a borg ship, though its one of the large rooms in the house not the biggest but big enough, At 01:55 p.m. 3/11/2009, you wrote: Hi Thomas, I certainly can't picture my room as a whole like that. I have never seen pictures as I've been blind since birth, so picturing the room that way is quite impossible. I can just picture the items in relation to each other. I too have spacial orientation issues. in fact I'm not good at mobility at all. I don't know why this is, and I'm very curious since I know friends that have been totally blind their entire lives and have no problems. for me to learn a new area it takes a lot of memorization and practice. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally agree with you about the Gma engine, and find myself quite able to use land
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
I was also born blind and, although I have great hearing and I can rely a lot on the position of the sound heck, I can feel acoustic changes and I know if something's in front of me and I do understand the idea of boards in games like battleship, I just can't get the hang of fps games though I can get around kind of and eventualy beat the level, but at many points when I killed the monsters and knocked out equipment in the process in sod, I end up circling around, eventually quitting because of frustration. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Once I learn my way around an area, I can visualize it as you do for the most part. In a game, especially one with a lot of stuff to work with, and you do a lot of moving around, it's easy to get disoriented. I was born blind, and I'm still that way. (grin) --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Thomas, Many people have problems in mazes. Some people do not know their left hand from their right as no one taught them when they were young. They just see something and grab it with the nearest hand to it, not thinking it is on the left or right of them. Or when they are looking at you and you ask for directions, they will give you the direction they would go even though it is opposite the way you need to go. Many people could not say which way is east if they are facing north as they never looked at a map. With blindness, these tendencies may be worse. That is why we encouraged people to make maps of a game level with something like push pins on a pizza box. And why the Seeing Eye and the NLS have 3D wooden maps of their floors with brail or talking indicators to locate where you are. Phil - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hello. While it might be true that many people may not have been taught all the necessary navigational skills or find it more difficult, it shouldn't be a reason not to make a game 3d. In my experience struggling is a good teacher, though I also know that many people want everything handed to them. Another consequence of being spoiled because of their blindness. Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Thomas, Many people have problems in mazes. Some people do not know their left hand from their right as no one taught them when they were young. They just see something and grab it with the nearest hand to it, not thinking it is on the left or right of them. Or when they are looking at you and you ask for directions, they will give you the direction they would go even though it is opposite the way you need to go. Many people could not say which way is east if they are facing north as they never looked at a map. With blindness, these tendencies may be worse. That is why we encouraged people to make maps of a game level with something like push pins on a pizza box. And why the Seeing Eye and the NLS have 3D wooden maps of their floors with brail or talking indicators to locate where you are. Phil - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Peter, Is there anything specifically about FPS games like Shades of Doom that confuses you. Any specific reason why you get lost, and anything I can do as a developer to make it easier for gamers like you to get full enjoyment out of the game? I will say this about Shades of Doom though. Shades of Doom is a poor example of an FPS title, because the levels were intended to be a maze. In other words they are not logically layed out as a typical building, and I believe David Greenwood intentially made the levels difficult to navigate to add extra challenge to the game. Now, when anyone says FPS they automatically do the, I can't do that because Shades of Doom is too hard, even though most levels in sighted FPS games aren't quite that complex to navigate. I think what is needed for people who have troubles with FPS games you need a simple example of an FPS game with a more normal layout. Rooms that aren't mazes and are more or less like you would find in real life. That said I personally like the maze factor as it really does add some additional challenge to the game. Smile. peter Mahach wrote: I was also born blind and, although I have great hearing and I can rely a lot on the position of the sound heck, I can feel acoustic changes and I know if something's in front of me and I do understand the idea of boards in games like battleship, I just can't get the hang of fps games though I can get around kind of and eventualy beat the level, but at many points when I killed the monsters and knocked out equipment in the process in sod, I end up circling around, eventually quitting because of frustration. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Phil, Yeah, I do know when I was learning Shades of Doom saving the level as a braille map and printing it out did help me a lot in getting a view of the level. Unfortunately, braille printers are expensive and very fiew blind people I know have one. So that is one reason I never added a braille mapping feature. Besides that when I do begin creating full 3d FPS games I'm not quite sure how I could indicate that room x is above room y unless I have two maps showing the level floor by floor, but then the relationship between the two floors is probably lost. Smile. Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Thomas, Many people have problems in mazes. Some people do not know their left hand from their right as no one taught them when they were young. They just see something and grab it with the nearest hand to it, not thinking it is on the left or right of them. Or when they are looking at you and you ask for directions, they will give you the direction they would go even though it is opposite the way you need to go. Many people could not say which way is east if they are facing north as they never looked at a map. With blindness, these tendencies may be worse. That is why we encouraged people to make maps of a game level with something like push pins on a pizza box. And why the Seeing Eye and the NLS have 3D wooden maps of their floors with brail or talking indicators to locate where you are. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
This is much how I think as well. Though I also had perfect vision or the first 8 years and remember things clearly. I actually think in visually terms still and can read maps pretty easily. But maybe that is why I don't have as hard of a time navigating in monkey business. My husband is also good at monkey business and he saw until he was 15 so who knows. Kellie and my lovable Lady J. Resident Adviser, Guide Dogs for the Blind Oregon campus www.guidedogs.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, That happens to me from time to time too, but I do have very good spacial orientation skills which is a huge plus in my favor. As a result I generally don't have a lot of problems getting around the levels in Monkey Business. One reason I believe I am so good at Monkey Business, Sarah, or Shades of Doom, is even though I'm totally blind now I still think like a sighted person. I'm able to see the level in my head and put doors, items, staircases, whatever in their proper relationship to each other. I'm able to see an entire level like a 2d map with this or that to the south, this or that to the east, something else is west of here, etc. So from what you and Scott both have said I gather blind people generally don't think like this. They think of an area not as a whole, but only in terms from getting from one landmark to the next. This is completely foreign to me, and would be for anyone who has been sighted for very long. This sounds to me like a very big difference in perception from a sighted person's point of view of the world and a blind person's point of view of the world. If so that would explain why I don't have problems getting around games like Shades of Doom, and why so many others can't make heads or tails out of the mazes. They litterally have no sense of depth, shape, and how things relate to one another in the real world. dark wrote: I love the sound effects and environmnet of the game too, I just find the unprecise nature of the game's navigation features rather gets on my nerves. there's personally nothing more annoying than hereing an object beacon, walking towards it only to walk past, then attempting to find it only to realize it's on the other side of some complicated wall Terrain. I admit though, my senses of both space and navigation are pretty abyssmal, even in real life (I remember all my routes by land marks, not by any sort of relations betwene the places I'm going), which is probably why i personally need such a handy navigation system as the one in the Gma engine and terraformers. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
well thomas, I'm not exactly sure, however I can give a great example of a game I could quickly get out of circling, that game being entombed. the first thing that could tell me I'm iomewhere I explored was the squishing sound of enemy corpses and the coordinates key said if I have been or have not been here before. but the cool part is the slash key. it gives a message of something like this. nearest unexplored space: west, 1. north, 2. east, 3. north, 2. west, 7... and so on.you could call it a gps of sorts that doesn't spoil anything but it can certainly lead you out of circling. but being the game is more based on squares like treasure hunt I see a different way that'd be more suited for an full fps game. up on pressing a key you could hear something like area locator on. go straight... turn east here... climb this ladder... or something like that until you reach the area. then it could say unexplored space located. area navigator off. another thing could be sound landmarks. for instance in monkey business almost on every level there are different ambiences that only add to the atmosphere yet aid in navigation. ah, I've been here before... so let's go another way. I know this isn't suited for something like mota unless you could use different drips, wind howls for different areas but in something like a star trek game that could work better with sounds of people working with pads... the warp core in the middle of the room... etc. hth. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Peter, Is there anything specifically about FPS games like Shades of Doom that confuses you. Any specific reason why you get lost, and anything I can do as a developer to make it easier for gamers like you to get full enjoyment out of the game? I will say this about Shades of Doom though. Shades of Doom is a poor example of an FPS title, because the levels were intended to be a maze. In other words they are not logically layed out as a typical building, and I believe David Greenwood intentially made the levels difficult to navigate to add extra challenge to the game. Now, when anyone says FPS they automatically do the, I can't do that because Shades of Doom is too hard, even though most levels in sighted FPS games aren't quite that complex to navigate. I think what is needed for people who have troubles with FPS games you need a simple example of an FPS game with a more normal layout. Rooms that aren't mazes and are more or less like you would find in real life. That said I personally like the maze factor as it really does add some additional challenge to the game. Smile. peter Mahach wrote: I was also born blind and, although I have great hearing and I can rely a lot on the position of the sound heck, I can feel acoustic changes and I know if something's in front of me and I do understand the idea of boards in games like battleship, I just can't get the hang of fps games though I can get around kind of and eventualy beat the level, but at many points when I killed the monsters and knocked out equipment in the process in sod, I end up circling around, eventually quitting because of frustration. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4333 (20090813) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4333 (20090813) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
When I was in school learning geometry, the braille diagrams used dashes rather than complete lines to symbolize lines which were hidden from view. Something like that could be used to show rooms which are under other rooms in a level. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Phil, Yeah, I do know when I was learning Shades of Doom saving the level as a braille map and printing it out did help me a lot in getting a view of the level. Unfortunately, braille printers are expensive and very fiew blind people I know have one. So that is one reason I never added a braille mapping feature. Besides that when I do begin creating full 3d FPS games I'm not quite sure how I could indicate that room x is above room y unless I have two maps showing the level floor by floor, but then the relationship between the two floors is probably lost. Smile. Phil Vlasak wrote: Hi Thomas, Many people have problems in mazes. Some people do not know their left hand from their right as no one taught them when they were young. They just see something and grab it with the nearest hand to it, not thinking it is on the left or right of them. Or when they are looking at you and you ask for directions, they will give you the direction they would go even though it is opposite the way you need to go. Many people could not say which way is east if they are facing north as they never looked at a map. With blindness, these tendencies may be worse. That is why we encouraged people to make maps of a game level with something like push pins on a pizza box. And why the Seeing Eye and the NLS have 3D wooden maps of their floors with brail or talking indicators to locate where you are. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
As an exploration fan I enjoy mazes, sinse they give me a wide variety of different rooms to explore, always with the possibility of meeting something new, and actuallly Tom i was hoping for a maze or two in the tomb hunter games later on. In shades as I said, the navigation features I found perfectly adequate despite my own spacial difficulties. That's one reason though when discussing 3D games I try to talk about the Gma engine as a hole and terraformers. If people want to get used to the engine and navigating with it, I'd personally advise playing Gma tank commander. while obviously not strictly an fps game, sinse your driving a tank, it does use the same scans, marks and other nav aides, and apart from the second stage in the it's areas are incredibly open. Even the town stage is imho very easy to navigate, - especially sinse you can always read the manual's stage descriptions if your too stuck. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
I'm not sure on the unexplored space navigator, sinse discovering ropes to climb etc would be part of the challenge of the game for me. Maybe it could tell you roughly where the nearest unexplored area was, and leave getting there up to you, Eg, east 30 meters, or down 10 if it was space on another floor. I totally agree with peter here about the ambient sounds, though i well suspect this is already planned for Mota anyway. this is something I've used significantly in Shades, Sarah and Gma tank commander, which has helped hugely! Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
I'm with you there dark, I won't mind the odd maze here and there. Even accidentally getting my head chopped off by a door isn't a problem lol. Though mindless difficulty isn't fun either, but that's where exploration comes in. dark wrote: As an exploration fan I enjoy mazes, sinse they give me a wide variety of different rooms to explore, always with the possibility of meeting something new, and actuallly Tom i was hoping for a maze or two in the tomb hunter games later on. In shades as I said, the navigation features I found perfectly adequate despite my own spacial difficulties. That's one reason though when discussing 3D games I try to talk about the Gma engine as a hole and terraformers. If people want to get used to the engine and navigating with it, I'd personally advise playing Gma tank commander. while obviously not strictly an fps game, sinse your driving a tank, it does use the same scans, marks and other nav aides, and apart from the second stage in the it's areas are incredibly open. Even the town stage is imho very easy to navigate, - especially sinse you can always read the manual's stage descriptions if your too stuck. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Quake is an excellent example of a good FPS game. The only thing I could think to add would be stereo positioning of the wall scrapes so you know exactly where that wall is and can get away from it. Okay, I thought of another thing. I'd be willing to give up my axe for a bouncing ball that when you let it go, it bounces all the way down to the end of the hallway, hits the wall and either stops or zooms down the next corridor, stopping when it's out of hearing range. Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point? Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing therapeutic massage, $65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.) Call 419-577-7973 I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and nervous anxiety... Ken Downey, LMT President of Blind Comfort! The Caring Without the Staring and DreamtechInteractive - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Peter, Is there anything specifically about FPS games like Shades of Doom that confuses you. Any specific reason why you get lost, and anything I can do as a developer to make it easier for gamers like you to get full enjoyment out of the game? I will say this about Shades of Doom though. Shades of Doom is a poor example of an FPS title, because the levels were intended to be a maze. In other words they are not logically layed out as a typical building, and I believe David Greenwood intentially made the levels difficult to navigate to add extra challenge to the game. Now, when anyone says FPS they automatically do the, I can't do that because Shades of Doom is too hard, even though most levels in sighted FPS games aren't quite that complex to navigate. I think what is needed for people who have troubles with FPS games you need a simple example of an FPS game with a more normal layout. Rooms that aren't mazes and are more or less like you would find in real life. That said I personally like the maze factor as it really does add some additional challenge to the game. Smile. peter Mahach wrote: I was also born blind and, although I have great hearing and I can rely a lot on the position of the sound heck, I can feel acoustic changes and I know if something's in front of me and I do understand the idea of boards in games like battleship, I just can't get the hang of fps games though I can get around kind of and eventualy beat the level, but at many points when I killed the monsters and knocked out equipment in the process in sod, I end up circling around, eventually quitting because of frustration. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally agree with you about the Gma engine, and find myself quite able to use land mark systems in games like Shades or Gma tank commander, and if your engine works on a similar principle I'm confident I'll be able to make use of it as well. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Maybe these 3d games could have a toggle. a breadcrumb mode for those that have difficulty visualizing, and a more regular mode, like SOD. This way both users could be represented... -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 9:53 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, That happens to me from time to time too, but I do have very good spacial orientation skills which is a huge plus in my favor. As a result I generally don't have a lot of problems getting around the levels in Monkey Business. One reason I believe I am so good at Monkey Business, Sarah, or Shades of Doom, is even though I'm totally blind now I still think like a sighted person. I'm able to see the level in my head and put doors, items, staircases, whatever in their proper relationship to each other. I'm able to see an entire level like a 2d map with this or that to the south, this or that to the east, something else is west of here, etc. So from what you and Scott both have said I gather blind people generally don't think like this. They think of an area not as a whole, but only in terms from getting from one landmark to the next. This is completely foreign to me, and would be for anyone who has been sighted for very long. This sounds to me like a very big difference in perception from a sighted person's point of view of the world and a blind person's point of view of the world. If so that would explain why I don't have problems getting around games like Shades of Doom, and why so many others can't make heads or tails out of the mazes. They litterally have no sense of depth, shape, and how things relate to one another in the real world. dark wrote: I love the sound effects and environmnet of the game too, I just find the unprecise nature of the game's navigation features rather gets on my nerves. there's personally nothing more annoying than hereing an object beacon, walking towards it only to walk past, then attempting to find it only to realize it's on the other side of some complicated wall Terrain. I admit though, my senses of both space and navigation are pretty abyssmal, even in real life (I remember all my routes by land marks, not by any sort of relations betwene the places I'm going), which is probably why i personally need such a handy navigation system as the one in the Gma engine and terraformers. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally agree with you about the Gma engine, and find myself quite able to use land mark systems in games like Shades or Gma tank commander, and if your engine works on a similar principle I'm confident I'll be able to make use of it as well. Beware the grue! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hello Tom. Well as I said, I'm not the best person to answer this at all. the colour and shape aspects of visualization are certainly ones I understand, having enough vision to see such things, though spacially I cannot. I remember routes in a different way. thus for instance, to get from my flat to the nearest corner shop I walk up the driveway (recognizeable by it's white metal railing up the edge), turn right and follow the road until I get to the end where I can see the large red brick wall of Durham prison. I then turn left, cross the road and walk forward, passed a wooden fence and some buildings, until I get to the end of the buildings and some yellow tactile paving at which point i can turn right, cross another road, and walk streight forward, passed a large entrance way, to get to the shop. I'll know I am there by A, the smell, B, the rush of air from the door, and C, the white bank building with the large metal cash machine on the side which is just before the door to said shop. I'll use similar methods in Shades or any other game, and thus far it's only in Monkey business where I've found they fail me. As I said though, i'm not the person to ask on either visionless navigation, or, spacial understanding. though I find such matters interesting from a philosophical perspective (I wrote an essay on sensary functionalism and synaesthesia for my masters), i'm not precisely experienced in them, and it's probably better to ask someone else. I also suspect the brain damage I suffered (which was due to premature birth complications rather than a genetic abnormality), is most likely not the cause of other people's spacial issues. I believe though, if your modeling your engine on the navigational features found in the gma engine, there will be no hastle either way. Despite my spacial orientation difficulties, I've never had issues using land marks with the Gma engine at all, it's only really Monkey business which has been beyond me. beware the gruie! Dark. Actual relations betwene any of these places are literally impossible for me to say. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Once I learn my way around an area, I can visualize it as you do for the most part. In a game, especially one with a lot of stuff to work with, and you do a lot of moving around, it's easy to get disoriented. I was born blind, and I'm still that way. (grin) --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi Dark, Yes, I do understand. Although, it seams to me that quite a few gamers on this list do have serious difficulties with spacial orientation especially in games like Shades of Doom. As I don't seam to have this problem I can't help but wonder what is the cause. Why do they have difficulty when I do not? I'm sure there is a root cause, and as a game developer it may help to discover what that issue is. Is it because I had sight for a long time and maybe many of them did not? Were they perhaps born with some inability to perceive spacial orientation such as yourself? Is there yet some other cause I haven't figured out yet? I don't know what the answer is, but all i do know is how I am able to construct the world in my minds eye. Seeing as I did have sight for many years i generally know what things look like, and if someone describes something to me I can construct a rough aproximation of it in my mind with color, shape, and size. EVen if it doesn't look exactly as it is in real life I can put it in its context in the real world. Take my living room for example. As I stand at the end of the hallway leading into the living room my mind is able to imagine mental a image of a room in 3d that is about 20 by 20 feet with a ceiling 8 feet high. Off to my left is the doorway leading into the kitchen. Ahead of me is the front door, and to the right of that is the couch. Above the couch are shelves containing miscelanious items. Immediately to my right, directly in front of the couch, is an entertainment set with a dvd player, our cable box, and on top of that is our tv. Beside that is a telephone stand and a coat closet. To Further to my right, along the far wall are windows, and below them is a desk, shelves, and so on. All of this I can see in my mind as one single image. I don't think of each item in the room as a single landmark or part of a whole, but i see the whole of it in my mind. I don't know if someone born blind would be able to do that or not. They certainly wouldn't be able to add color as I can if they have never seen colors before. Regardless of the answer I'm able to use that same mental image and apply it to games and see the levels the same way I can mentally see my living room. dark wrote: Hi tom. do not judge perception of blind people in general by me at all, sinse my spacial awareness is actually worse than most people's, possibly due to some brain damage I suffered at birth. I have absolutely no idea how to spacially relate one place I am in to another, construct any sort of map, or even basically understand rotational exercises. Frequently when walking around I will perceive an object either by vision, touch or something else, and stil walk into it because my ability to judge distance is so extremely terrible. I've learnt to get around this by use of memory, and synaesthesic representations of land marks in various senses from visual to auditory to tactile, even smell. In a game like Shades, I'll simply attempt to remember familiar land marks around the maze, useful sfx etc, I also make use of the block graphics display. My spacial difficulties are also why I cannot play games with a spacial overview involved, such as solitare, the scrabble style word puzles, and find battleships and mine sweeper tremendously difficult. I certainly could not play chess without a physical board in front of me on which to constantly check the pieces, by touch and vision. all this being said though, these problemts are uniquely mine. i've met people with literally no working vision who have amazing sense of space, take for example the blind painter, who could paint entirely by mental representation! I am in no way an average model for spacial awareness, as when I was born I did suffer brain damage from oxygen starvation, and after living for quite some time believe this is the area of my brain which was damaged. All this being said though, i totally agree with you about the Gma engine, and find myself quite able to use land mark systems in games like Shades or Gma tank commander, and if your engine works on a similar principle I'm confident I'll be able to make use of it as well. Beware the grue! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
[Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi. to me, the difficulty of a 3D game depends entirely upon how good the navigation tools in that particular game are. Monkey business, i have to admit, I'm actually absolutely appauling! at and have never made it through the Jungle stage successfully. I just find the navigation used in that game extremely imprecise, as to pointing out objects, and spend most of my time running into walls uncertain of where I am. the games produced with the Gma engine, and indeed Terraformers however, are a vastly different story. The precise nature of audio to in game objects with turn indicators etc, the use of various viewing tools like the list view, or the 360 and streight ahead scans, the precise nature of object indication sounds and the ability to have objects in range listed by catagory using the monster view, not to mention of course some great sonar for targiting (though the audio precision in the Gma engine is quite useable as it is). All of these contribute to making 3D navigation not only possible, but considderably easy. I'm fairly certain that however complex the environment, Tom will be able to utilize tools to compensate, - actually I personally think the view function in 2D mota makes the game a litle too easy when calculating jumps (though I'm certainly not saying it should be removed or changed, just illustrating Tom's ability to create really good ease of use tools for his games. I'd therefore really encourage people who've felt 3D frustration not to be put off 3D entirely, and especially not by monkey business. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
now I like monkey business. I have beaten the game it it is personally one of my favorite games out there. I love the 3d sound effects and find the difficulty the greatest part about it. I would love to see more games like that. Kellie and my lovable Lady J. Resident Adviser, Guide Dogs for the Blind Oregon campus www.guidedogs.com - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi. to me, the difficulty of a 3D game depends entirely upon how good the navigation tools in that particular game are. Monkey business, i have to admit, I'm actually absolutely appauling! at and have never made it through the Jungle stage successfully. I just find the navigation used in that game extremely imprecise, as to pointing out objects, and spend most of my time running into walls uncertain of where I am. the games produced with the Gma engine, and indeed Terraformers however, are a vastly different story. The precise nature of audio to in game objects with turn indicators etc, the use of various viewing tools like the list view, or the 360 and streight ahead scans, the precise nature of object indication sounds and the ability to have objects in range listed by catagory using the monster view, not to mention of course some great sonar for targiting (though the audio precision in the Gma engine is quite useable as it is). All of these contribute to making 3D navigation not only possible, but considderably easy. I'm fairly certain that however complex the environment, Tom will be able to utilize tools to compensate, - actually I personally think the view function in 2D mota makes the game a litle too easy when calculating jumps (though I'm certainly not saying it should be removed or changed, just illustrating Tom's ability to create really good ease of use tools for his games. I'd therefore really encourage people who've felt 3D frustration not to be put off 3D entirely, and especially not by monkey business. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
I love the sound effects and environmnet of the game too, I just find the unprecise nature of the game's navigation features rather gets on my nerves. there's personally nothing more annoying than hereing an object beacon, walking towards it only to walk past, then attempting to find it only to realize it's on the other side of some complicated wall Terrain. I admit though, my senses of both space and navigation are pretty abyssmal, even in real life (I remember all my routes by land marks, not by any sort of relations betwene the places I'm going), which is probably why i personally need such a handy navigation system as the one in the Gma engine and terraformers. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Kellie and my lovable Lady J. pebbles...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation now I like monkey business. I have beaten the game it it is personally one of my favorite games out there. I love the 3d sound effects and find the difficulty the greatest part about it. I would love to see more games like that. Kellie and my lovable Lady J. Resident Adviser, Guide Dogs for the Blind Oregon campus www.guidedogs.com - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: [Audyssey] 3D navigation Hi. to me, the difficulty of a 3D game depends entirely upon how good the navigation tools in that particular game are. Monkey business, i have to admit, I'm actually absolutely appauling! at and have never made it through the Jungle stage successfully. I just find the navigation used in that game extremely imprecise, as to pointing out objects, and spend most of my time running into walls uncertain of where I am. the games produced with the Gma engine, and indeed Terraformers however, are a vastly different story. The precise nature of audio to in game objects with turn indicators etc, the use of various viewing tools like the list view, or the 360 and streight ahead scans, the precise nature of object indication sounds and the ability to have objects in range listed by catagory using the monster view, not to mention of course some great sonar for targiting (though the audio precision in the Gma engine is quite useable as it is). All of these contribute to making 3D navigation not only possible, but considderably easy. I'm fairly certain that however complex the environment, Tom will be able to utilize tools to compensate, - actually I personally think the view function in 2D mota makes the game a litle too easy when calculating jumps (though I'm certainly not saying it should be removed or changed, just illustrating Tom's ability to create really good ease of use tools for his games. I'd therefore really encourage people who've felt 3D frustration not to be put off 3D entirely, and especially not by monkey business. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Dark, I would agree with that assessment. I'll admit I've largely noddled my own engine after the GMA engine for the plane fact that it is familiar to me, it has some very excellent features, and it seamed like a great example of a fully accessible game engine to me. Even though it isn't fully 3d I instantly saw how the same engine could be updated to have a fully 3d environment, and I could build upon what was there to make a fully 3d FPS type title accessible. I happen to own Monkey Business myself and the biggest disappointment is the navigation features in the game. I've done pretty well with the game, think it is fun, but I do get frustrated at times with the game when I have to listen to a sonar sound instead of having it described verbally. So obviously I'd be more in favor of doing things the way GMA did it rather than the way it was done in Monkey Business. Anyway, I personally don't think going from a 2d FPS like shades of Doom to a 3d FPS is going to be that much of a big adjustment. Especially, since my game engine was designed along the lines of the GMA engine. Although, we will see how well it is received when I release my first 3d title. dark wrote: Hi. to me, the difficulty of a 3D game depends entirely upon how good the navigation tools in that particular game are. Monkey business, i have to admit, I'm actually absolutely appauling! at and have never made it through the Jungle stage successfully. I just find the navigation used in that game extremely imprecise, as to pointing out objects, and spend most of my time running into walls uncertain of where I am. the games produced with the Gma engine, and indeed Terraformers however, are a vastly different story. The precise nature of audio to in game objects with turn indicators etc, the use of various viewing tools like the list view, or the 360 and streight ahead scans, the precise nature of object indication sounds and the ability to have objects in range listed by catagory using the monster view, not to mention of course some great sonar for targiting (though the audio precision in the Gma engine is quite useable as it is). All of these contribute to making 3D navigation not only possible, but considderably easy. I'm fairly certain that however complex the environment, Tom will be able to utilize tools to compensate, - actually I personally think the view function in 2D mota makes the game a litle too easy when calculating jumps (though I'm certainly not saying it should be removed or changed, just illustrating Tom's ability to create really good ease of use tools for his games. I'd therefore really encourage people who've felt 3D frustration not to be put off 3D entirely, and especially not by monkey business. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] 3D navigation
Hi Dark, That happens to me from time to time too, but I do have very good spacial orientation skills which is a huge plus in my favor. As a result I generally don't have a lot of problems getting around the levels in Monkey Business. One reason I believe I am so good at Monkey Business, Sarah, or Shades of Doom, is even though I'm totally blind now I still think like a sighted person. I'm able to see the level in my head and put doors, items, staircases, whatever in their proper relationship to each other. I'm able to see an entire level like a 2d map with this or that to the south, this or that to the east, something else is west of here, etc. So from what you and Scott both have said I gather blind people generally don't think like this. They think of an area not as a whole, but only in terms from getting from one landmark to the next. This is completely foreign to me, and would be for anyone who has been sighted for very long. This sounds to me like a very big difference in perception from a sighted person's point of view of the world and a blind person's point of view of the world. If so that would explain why I don't have problems getting around games like Shades of Doom, and why so many others can't make heads or tails out of the mazes. They litterally have no sense of depth, shape, and how things relate to one another in the real world. dark wrote: I love the sound effects and environmnet of the game too, I just find the unprecise nature of the game's navigation features rather gets on my nerves. there's personally nothing more annoying than hereing an object beacon, walking towards it only to walk past, then attempting to find it only to realize it's on the other side of some complicated wall Terrain. I admit though, my senses of both space and navigation are pretty abyssmal, even in real life (I remember all my routes by land marks, not by any sort of relations betwene the places I'm going), which is probably why i personally need such a handy navigation system as the one in the Gma engine and terraformers. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
