Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Not actually close enough to Cedar Point to hear a trumpet. I'm just the other side of Cleveland. I love Cedar Point though. You know the best roller coaster park in the world. I sure do wish that the Roller Coaster Tycoon series of sim games were accessible. They often call Chardon the buckle of the snow belt east of Cleveland. We often get the brunt of the lake effect snow. Been lucky this year. The big storms have missed us. But we have had about 95 inches of snow so far. BFN Jim Yet another fine whine from Chardon eh? j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
We usually don't get that much snow, but over the last couple days we've been getting hit very hard. You know, I've kind of been thinking about a roller coaster game. We could start simple--one coaster that you rev up by mouse movement, then click a button and off it would go, moving through 3d audio space--and if you revved it too high, crash--off the track it would fly! (This, of course, would be merely a sim in later games to determine the top speed at which a coaster should travel.) Of course, if your theme park became very famous, you could improve the coasters so they stayed on track no matter how fast and how sharp the turns. That kind of game is way beyond my limited skills though. I'm much better at coming up with ideas than code. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Ken the Crazy Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Ken, Not actually close enough to Cedar Point to hear a trumpet. I'm just the other side of Cleveland. I love Cedar Point though. You know the best roller coaster park in the world. I sure do wish that the Roller Coaster Tycoon series of sim games were accessible. They often call Chardon the buckle of the snow belt east of Cleveland. We often get the brunt of the lake effect snow. Been lucky this year. The big storms have missed us. But we have had about 95 inches of snow so far. BFN Jim Yet another fine whine from Chardon eh? j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Oh! thanks, I thought that my cow was in trouble. Now I know it's just you on a trumpet. And don't worry about your cat, that's just me on a violin. Actually I have no musical talent at all. That's probably why I spend so much time writing code. At least with that, if I stay at it long enough I can get it to do as I wish. BFN Jim C code. C code run. Run, code, run PLEASE! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Jim, Lol! Hahahahaha! That's a good one. Thanks for the laughs. Smile. On 2/2/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Ken, Oh! thanks, I thought that my cow was in trouble. Now I know it's just you on a trumpet. And don't worry about your cat, that's just me on a violin. Actually I have no musical talent at all. That's probably why I spend so much time writing code. At least with that, if I stay at it long enough I can get it to do as I wish. BFN Jim C code. C code run. Run, code, run PLEASE! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Well, I do understand your position quite well. Even though when it comes to programming I'm pretty adaptable that doesn't mean I'm very good at all of the languages I've learned over the years. I'm not, for example, very good at Visual Basic. For one reason or another my talents have been with C languages like C++, Java, C# .net, and Perl. Of course, if I worked with the language more I'd get better at it, but the fact remains my skills are more with C languages than with basic languages like Visual Basic. However, I think I might be able to help you. Genesis 3D was designed as a managed dll for the .net family of languages and its soul advantage over BGT is that someone like yourself could learn and use Visual Basic .net and easily get access to DirectX, Sapi, networking, 3d calculations, etc through the g3d.dll. This would completely resolve the issue of installing several third-party wrappers like SlimDX and so on because all of that would be accessible through g3d.dll. As long as you supplied SlimDX with your VB .net app you would have access to most of the basic game APIs you need. If you wanted access to OpenAl, for example, I could wrap that as well. In fact, I'm going to have to do that anyway for the non-Windows port since OpenAL is used for audio in the majority of games for Linux and Mac OS. Cheers! On 2/2/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Exactly right. Now if it's a game I'm selling, I want to reach as many as possible. My Phrase Madness game is an example. It works on all the windows platforms as far as I know, as well as Windows Mobile 6.5 and under. The point of that game will be to sell it, which means that support is the huge priority. For my free games, the priority is not so much as to be on the cutting edge, but to make something that is awesome. By the way, I've looked at BGT, and though I still plan to look at it and try to learn it, I'm going to focus on learning VB.net. That book that's in the Heli folder is all about how to program with it. I know that it's already obsolete, and that I'm way behind the times. Oh well, it's been that way in many areas through my whole life. I just can't get my mind around C style languages. It's like playing the trumpet. I like the trumpet's sound better than, say a flute, but the flute makes some sense to me. The trumpet doesn't make any sense to me at all, and I struggled for years to learn it. Now my primary instrument is the keyboard, and it makes more sense to me than the flute. How I wish there was a programming language based on music--that'd be awesome. Anyway, maybe now you get my point. I'm not saying the trumpet is bad--I love its sound. But if ever you're in Ohio and you hear the sound of a cow dying in agony, it's not a cow at all, but me trying to play the trumpet. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
That's not my trumpet Jim, it's my computer trying to run that latest game, and it has XP and it's three years old so it's dragging a bit, kind of like a chair scraping across the floor. I'm surprised you can hear it though--you must not be far at all from Cedar Point! Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Ken the Crazy Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Ken, Oh! thanks, I thought that my cow was in trouble. Now I know it's just you on a trumpet. And don't worry about your cat, that's just me on a violin. Actually I have no musical talent at all. That's probably why I spend so much time writing code. At least with that, if I stay at it long enough I can get it to do as I wish. BFN Jim C code. C code run. Run, code, run PLEASE! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Jeremy, I could not agree more, or have said it better. BFN - Original Message - The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Actually you can think in those terms. However, only in the mind of the creator. The reason why is the operating systems. They don't stay a constant as in only one type. Every few years they bring out new ops and all comps use that op being built. Just like now you will be hard pressed to find a xp box or even vista. All I see on market is win7 and even its going 64bit. So that creates the demand to move with the progress or watch your creations disappear like so many dos programs. - Original Message - The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
You know Jim, I'm half tempted to make a game for the Commodore 64 just to prove your point, for it is a good one. The sad thing is that people who can't run visual basic could download VICE and run that game. Of course, it would be terrible, but funny too. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Actually you can think in those terms. However, only in the mind of the creator. The reason why is the operating systems. They don't stay a constant as in only one type. Every few years they bring out new ops and all comps use that op being built. Just like now you will be hard pressed to find a xp box or even vista. All I see on market is win7 and even its going 64bit. So that creates the demand to move with the progress or watch your creations disappear like so many dos programs. - Original Message - The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken and all, I guess my question is why? What exactly is the point of writing a game for a Comidor 64 knowing that the hardware and software is completely out of date? From my personal perspective I update my system roughly two to three years. When Windows XP came out I was one of the first to switch from Windows ME to XP. When Vista came out I had the operating system up and running about two weeks after Vista came out. When Windows 7 came out I purchased an upgrade about two months later. So from that perspective writing games that are known to not be fairly compatible with the next gen operating system is a bad design in my opinion. If you don't think about or plan ahead for these changes developers with the if it ain't broke don't fix it opinion are going to be sorely upset when their software no longer correctly runs. Which is exactly the problem we are facing now. For example, beginning with Windows Vista Microsoft added a new security feature, User Account Control, that is suppose to help protect you, the end user from viruses and other malware. Unfortunately, since most of the VI accessible games out there aren't UAC compatible I have to disable the operating system's security features in order to play legacy applications written in VB 6. Why should I have to put up with using incompatible software just because someone is unwilling to change his/her ways? All I'm saying is it is fine to have these little discussions of art verses work etc, but the fact still remains if you choose a poor design it is a poor design regardless of how much you love the language, technology, or type of hardware you create it for. If you write it for a Comidor 64 go ahead but don't expect anyone else to play it as it won't run on anything modern. That sounds like a whole lot of work for nothing in my opinion. I don't really understand this I don't care if it is old opinion. Cheers! On 2/1/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You know Jim, I'm half tempted to make a game for the Commodore 64 just to prove your point, for it is a good one. The sad thing is that people who can't run visual basic could download VICE and run that game. Of course, it would be terrible, but funny too. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Thomas, I think you look at this situation differently because you start your projects with a different goal than some of the rest of us. I doubt you will ever view this particular aspect the same as me, but maybe I can give an example so you can better understand where I'm coming from. If I get up one morning and decide, hey, I want to put together a little tune with a banjo. If that is what I happen to feel like doing, the thought would never cross my mind to change it even though the banjo is a relatively unpopular instrument. If I continue as planned many people won't like my music as much as if I'd changed it to a guitar or something. If I get up one morning and I decide to make a racing game, I would never abandon it to make a strategy game even if the community clearly wanted to see a strategy game more than a racing game. This is just an example of course, I have no idea how the community feels about these game types. The point is that I feel like making a certain type of game so I am not all that interested in what other people will think. Of course I will be happy if other people enjoy my banjo music and my racing game, but that wasn't my primary reason for doing the projects. True, sometimes I will have a few things I would like to work on and I will use the community's opinion to help me decide, but I am not getting paid to do these things so my own personal satisfaction is my payment while I work. I completely see where you are coming from though, in your mind it makes total sense to just change a language so that more people can play the game. While you don't see it the same way, to some of us that is the same as suggesting to switch to guitar from banjo or go with a strategy game rather than a racing one so that more people will enjoy it. I am not suggesting that you change over and work on projects the way I do, but I also don't think anyone should suggest I change to work on projects the way you do. Both are valid approaches to personal projects. I don't know if you are sighted or not, but the exact same division exists in the visual art world. On one hand you have people who view abstract art as something their kid could have done with crayons and on the other you have people saying that isn't the point. I think it is completely natural that the 2 different styles of thinking would also apply here in the programming world. --- On Tue, 2/1/11, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb To: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 12:36 PM Hi Ken and all, I guess my question is why? What exactly is the point of writing a game for a Comidor 64 knowing that the hardware and software is completely out of date? From my personal perspective I update my system roughly two to three years. When Windows XP came out I was one of the first to switch from Windows ME to XP. When Vista came out I had the operating system up and running about two weeks after Vista came out. When Windows 7 came out I purchased an upgrade about two months later. So from that perspective writing games that are known to not be fairly compatible with the next gen operating system is a bad design in my opinion. If you don't think about or plan ahead for these changes developers with the if it ain't broke don't fix it opinion are going to be sorely upset when their software no longer correctly runs. Which is exactly the problem we are facing now. For example, beginning with Windows Vista Microsoft added a new security feature, User Account Control, that is suppose to help protect you, the end user from viruses and other malware. Unfortunately, since most of the VI accessible games out there aren't UAC compatible I have to disable the operating system's security features in order to play legacy applications written in VB 6. Why should I have to put up with using incompatible software just because someone is unwilling to change his/her ways? All I'm saying is it is fine to have these little discussions of art verses work etc, but the fact still remains if you choose a poor design it is a poor design regardless of how much you love the language, technology, or type of hardware you create it for. If you write it for a Comidor 64 go ahead but don't expect anyone else to play it as it won't run on anything modern. That sounds like a whole lot of work for nothing in my opinion. I don't really understand this I don't care if it is old opinion. Cheers! On 2/1/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You know Jim, I'm half tempted to make a game for the Commodore 64 just to prove your point, for it is a good one. The sad thing is that people who can't run visual basic could download VICE and run that game
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Thomas, I totally agree, which is why, as soon as I knew BGT was in development, ever since I became a beta tester, all my gaming code from that point on were written in BGT. I am still finding it hard to learn C in order to write general purpose software, but hey, this list isn't about that anyways. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Ken and all, I guess my question is why? What exactly is the point of writing a game for a Comidor 64 knowing that the hardware and software is completely out of date? From my personal perspective I update my system roughly two to three years. When Windows XP came out I was one of the first to switch from Windows ME to XP. When Vista came out I had the operating system up and running about two weeks after Vista came out. When Windows 7 came out I purchased an upgrade about two months later. So from that perspective writing games that are known to not be fairly compatible with the next gen operating system is a bad design in my opinion. If you don't think about or plan ahead for these changes developers with the if it ain't broke don't fix it opinion are going to be sorely upset when their software no longer correctly runs. Which is exactly the problem we are facing now. For example, beginning with Windows Vista Microsoft added a new security feature, User Account Control, that is suppose to help protect you, the end user from viruses and other malware. Unfortunately, since most of the VI accessible games out there aren't UAC compatible I have to disable the operating system's security features in order to play legacy applications written in VB 6. Why should I have to put up with using incompatible software just because someone is unwilling to change his/her ways? All I'm saying is it is fine to have these little discussions of art verses work etc, but the fact still remains if you choose a poor design it is a poor design regardless of how much you love the language, technology, or type of hardware you create it for. If you write it for a Comidor 64 go ahead but don't expect anyone else to play it as it won't run on anything modern. That sounds like a whole lot of work for nothing in my opinion. I don't really understand this I don't care if it is old opinion. Cheers! On 2/1/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You know Jim, I'm half tempted to make a game for the Commodore 64 just to prove your point, for it is a good one. The sad thing is that people who can't run visual basic could download VICE and run that game. Of course, it would be terrible, but funny too. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Geremy, Actually, I do understand your point, but as you say our goals are completely different. For me I expect certain things out of any game project I create or any game I buy. Obviously I want personal satisfaction, but that isn't the only goal I have when I start a project. I frequently upgrade my computers so therefore I expect anything I create or buy to not only be compatible with the OS of today, but to be somewhat forward compatible for the OS of tomorrow. It needs to be easy to maintain, upgrade, and of course I do want my customers to enjoy what I create as well. A number of factors here that go well beyond just personal satisfaction. I think that is the key issue. For that reason some game developers frustrate me when they don't exactly share this view or outlook on programming. A lot of accessible game developers are still using Windows XP, Visual Basic, etc and write decent games. However, since I have left all of that behind, have upgraded, I'm easily frustrated by the fact those developers have decided to live in the past rather than stay current as I do. This has nothing to do with a work of art in my opinion, but designing something that will last and be enjoyed for many many years to come. Playing free games like Jim Kitchen's games is one thing, but I have purchased a number of games from GMA, BSC, PCS, etc that are based on Visual Basic 6 and are beginning to show their age. They still technically run on Windows 7, but there are things that could be better such as UAC compatibility for one or support for XAudio2 for another. Cheers! On 2/1/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thomas, I think you look at this situation differently because you start your projects with a different goal than some of the rest of us. I doubt you will ever view this particular aspect the same as me, but maybe I can give an example so you can better understand where I'm coming from. If I get up one morning and decide, hey, I want to put together a little tune with a banjo. If that is what I happen to feel like doing, the thought would never cross my mind to change it even though the banjo is a relatively unpopular instrument. If I continue as planned many people won't like my music as much as if I'd changed it to a guitar or something. If I get up one morning and I decide to make a racing game, I would never abandon it to make a strategy game even if the community clearly wanted to see a strategy game more than a racing game. This is just an example of course, I have no idea how the community feels about these game types. The point is that I feel like making a certain type of game so I am not all that interested in what other people will think. Of course I will be happy if other people enjoy my banjo music and my racing game, but that wasn't my primary reason for doing the projects. True, sometimes I will have a few things I would like to work on and I will use the community's opinion to help me decide, but I am not getting paid to do these things so my own personal satisfaction is my payment while I work. I completely see where you are coming from though, in your mind it makes total sense to just change a language so that more people can play the game. While you don't see it the same way, to some of us that is the same as suggesting to switch to guitar from banjo or go with a strategy game rather than a racing one so that more people will enjoy it. I am not suggesting that you change over and work on projects the way I do, but I also don't think anyone should suggest I change to work on projects the way you do. Both are valid approaches to personal projects. I don't know if you are sighted or not, but the exact same division exists in the visual art world. On one hand you have people who view abstract art as something their kid could have done with crayons and on the other you have people saying that isn't the point. I think it is completely natural that the 2 different styles of thinking would also apply here in the programming world. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
well you could use c64 sounds and music or just music and normal sounds. At 05:42 a.m. 2/02/2011, you wrote: You know Jim, I'm half tempted to make a game for the Commodore 64 just to prove your point, for it is a good one. The sad thing is that people who can't run visual basic could download VICE and run that game. Of course, it would be terrible, but funny too. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Actually you can think in those terms. However, only in the mind of the creator. The reason why is the operating systems. They don't stay a constant as in only one type. Every few years they bring out new ops and all comps use that op being built. Just like now you will be hard pressed to find a xp box or even vista. All I see on market is win7 and even its going 64bit. So that creates the demand to move with the progress or watch your creations disappear like so many dos programs. - Original Message - The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Exactly right. Now if it's a game I'm selling, I want to reach as many as possible. My Phrase Madness game is an example. It works on all the windows platforms as far as I know, as well as Windows Mobile 6.5 and under. The point of that game will be to sell it, which means that support is the huge priority. For my free games, the priority is not so much as to be on the cutting edge, but to make something that is awesome. By the way, I've looked at BGT, and though I still plan to look at it and try to learn it, I'm going to focus on learning VB.net. That book that's in the Heli folder is all about how to program with it. I know that it's already obsolete, and that I'm way behind the times. Oh well, it's been that way in many areas through my whole life. I just can't get my mind around C style languages. It's like playing the trumpet. I like the trumpet's sound better than, say a flute, but the flute makes some sense to me. The trumpet doesn't make any sense to me at all, and I struggled for years to learn it. Now my primary instrument is the keyboard, and it makes more sense to me than the flute. How I wish there was a programming language based on music--that'd be awesome. Anyway, maybe now you get my point. I'm not saying the trumpet is bad--I love its sound. But if ever you're in Ohio and you hear the sound of a cow dying in agony, it's not a cow at all, but me trying to play the trumpet. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Thomas, I think you look at this situation differently because you start your projects with a different goal than some of the rest of us. I doubt you will ever view this particular aspect the same as me, but maybe I can give an example so you can better understand where I'm coming from. If I get up one morning and decide, hey, I want to put together a little tune with a banjo. If that is what I happen to feel like doing, the thought would never cross my mind to change it even though the banjo is a relatively unpopular instrument. If I continue as planned many people won't like my music as much as if I'd changed it to a guitar or something. If I get up one morning and I decide to make a racing game, I would never abandon it to make a strategy game even if the community clearly wanted to see a strategy game more than a racing game. This is just an example of course, I have no idea how the community feels about these game types. The point is that I feel like making a certain type of game so I am not all that interested in what other people will think. Of course I will be happy if other people enjoy my banjo music and my racing game, but that wasn't my primary reason for doing the projects. True, sometimes I will have a few things I would like to work on and I will use the community's opinion to help me decide, but I am not getting paid to do these things so my own personal satisfaction is my payment while I work. I completely see where you are coming from though, in your mind it makes total sense to just change a language so that more people can play the game. While you don't see it the same way, to some of us that is the same as suggesting to switch to guitar from banjo or go with a strategy game rather than a racing one so that more people will enjoy it. I am not suggesting that you change over and work on projects the way I do, but I also don't think anyone should suggest I change to work on projects the way you do. Both are valid approaches to personal projects. I don't know if you are sighted or not, but the exact same division exists in the visual art world. On one hand you have people who view abstract art as something their kid could have done with crayons and on the other you have people saying that isn't the point. I think it is completely natural that the 2 different styles of thinking would also apply here in the programming world. --- On Tue, 2/1/11, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb To: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 12:36 PM Hi Ken and all, I guess my question is why? What exactly is the point of writing a game for a Comidor 64 knowing that the hardware and software is completely out of date? From my personal perspective I update my system roughly two to three years. When Windows XP came out I was one of the first to switch from Windows ME to XP. When Vista came out I had the operating system up and running about two weeks after Vista came out
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Damien, For the most part that's true. Although, there are alternative's to DirectX. If I wanted ogg, mp3, and wma support using C# .net or VB .net all I'd have to do is use FMOD Ex instead of DirectSound or XAudio2. Since this is a freeware product a developer could use FMOD Ex for free, and it doesn't require a commercial or shareware type license. However, for the most part I agree with you. While I don't have a problem with VB .net or C# .net myself I realise there are others who don't wish to use it for one reason or another. The main one being that the .net runtime environment is extremely huge, and installing third-party components can become a headache. If you install this or that component in the wrong order you can break compatibility and have to uninstall and reinstall everything correctly. This is probably one of the most frustrating aspects to using .net based software. However, there are plenty of good thingsabout .net as well. As for Ken's desire not to use BGT I think I understand his point of view. For him he wants to actually program a game from scratch, get a feel for how the code works, rather than depending on tools like BGT that hides all the low level workings of DirectX, Sapi, etc and gives you a nice easy to use wrapper. BGT is nice, but if you want to actually know how all that stuff really works you need something else, a real programming language, to get down to the nitty-gritty of the mechanics etc. Cheers! On 1/30/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Ken, You say others can work on it. This is the exact problem we have. Other people can't work on it if they do not have any of the .net development platforms. I am one of these and have BGT, which is fine for all of my development needs. It is portable, it is cheap, and it is packed with nice game features that even DirectX cannot compare with. For example adding ogg support to DirectX is yet another dependency and another farce. However with BGT, it is very easy, as it is integrated into the engine. Encryption and packing features is another nice advantage. Granted this is not required for an open source game, but for compiled games it is easier to encrypt and package sounds than it ever would have been for VB or C directly, let alone the .net platforms. That's your main problem with a community based game. Not everyone might have the development platform it is designed for. I want BGT, you don't have it. You want .net or vb6, I don't have it. Someone else might even want to convert it to python, which neither of us might have. Simply because all the developers are experienced in different languages makes a community open source game hard to maintain, simply because all the developers will want it translating into their language so that they can help to maintain it, which gives us several different executables. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Hmmm...Certainly I could do the port, but I think we will eventually encounter the same issue with C# .net as Visual Basic. That being not everyone here is skilled in C# .net and not everyone has the proper tools. Add to that Windows XP doesn't have native .net support requiring the end users to still perform a 350 MB .net upgrade plus add and install any third-party .net components we choose to use. This isn't a big a problem for Win 7 users like myself since .net 4.0 is integrated into the OS, but for legacy operating systems like XP .net 4.0 is an optional upgrade that would need to be performed in order to be forward compatible with C# .net apps. I know a couple of people like Jim Kitchen and Damien who refuse to perform this upgrade for whatever reason. There may be others of a similar mind/opinion. Cheers! On 1/30/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: This game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. Thanks for that. Being a gamer yourself, I know that you appreciate feedback--the good as much as the critical. Well, if you will help me port it to C.net, I'll take the bull by the horns. There's still lots of work to be done with it, and I know that if we port it, others can work on it too, which of course was the intent. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
I don't know what xaudio2 is, but personally directX is terrible when it comes to 3d audio--I agree. I have heard tha Openal is far better. The best engine though is Diesel, the one used in the making of the blind eye. Yeah, if you support 3d audio, stay away from dx8! (I don't know how the latest directx is doing, but hopefully it's a lot better than dx8.) I wouldn't really even think of switching from vb6 to vb.net except that my hopes are that I'll be able to use Openal or Directx 11 (and that dx11 will be much better than dx8.) In the meantime, maybe I'll whip up an algorithm that slows the x movement down as it approaches 0, and treat the realm of -1 to +1 as -10 to +10. That might help, but it would also mess with the doppler effect, not that I can get that to work anyway. Right now, I'm adding some AI to the opponent. The intent is that if he sees that you're lined up for a shot, he'll dive or ascend, depending on your altitude. Then, if he gets close enough without being shot, he'll put on a boost of speed and get behind you and shoot. I've been learning a bit about AI, and it's fascinating. I hope to further implement it. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:10 AM Subject: my ramblings about programming: why I use vb It's not that BGT doesn't at all interest me. There are a lot of appealing features, and I know I won't be able to resist once the 3d audio is implemented. Delving into BGT as I doubtless will, I seriously doubt it will be my only method of programming for games. For one thing, as much as I dislike programming, when I program a game from the ground up I know exactly how the game works. I can tweak the finest details, and know just how a sub or function works. I guess that learning is another reason I like to program. Also, if I had a new idea about a game, and a particular feature wasn't supported yet, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it but suggest and wait, which would mean that someone else would either have to do the work for me or it wouldn't get done. Another thing I would like to do eventually is make games that blind people can play with friends and family. If I could find someone to do the graphics, I could do the sounds and the rest of it, or I might start adding audio effects and other things to make preexisting games accessible. There is a pong 3d game in a book on programming vb.net that I have. If I ever wrap my brain around VB.net, I'd like to put it together and modify it for our community. My kids are into arcade games, and we only have a couple that have graphics, (one being Quake which they aren't allowed to play of course,) so I'd like to expand that arena as well. Also, I guess that when I saw the BGT code for the first time, I instantly thought of C, and Quake C in particular. (I've still got some loose neurons bouncing around in my head from messing with that.) I'm sure it's not nearly as bad as all that though. I'll certainly try out BGT when the 3d audio becomes fully supported, because every game idea I have would use 3d audio. Really I find very little dimensionality in games that just have panning and volume--it's like what a sighted person would feel playing Pole Position on a c64. And no, I'm not trying to insult the makers of all the games that don't use it, or I would be insulting myself too. They are great games still, (and yes, I still actually play Pole Position for the C64 at times, as well as all these other games
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Thomas, I don't understand the point though of only making things harder for yourself if the tools are available to make it simpler? It's almost like making your own game engine for one game and then completely rewriting it for the second game just because you want to use a more advanced method or concept. It's like wanting to program your own MIDI messages instead of using a keyboard and sound module just because you want to understand how MIDI works in order to get the best from it. It's only the same thing in the end up. Just my opinion. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Damien, For the most part that's true. Although, there are alternative's to DirectX. If I wanted ogg, mp3, and wma support using C# .net or VB .net all I'd have to do is use FMOD Ex instead of DirectSound or XAudio2. Since this is a freeware product a developer could use FMOD Ex for free, and it doesn't require a commercial or shareware type license. However, for the most part I agree with you. While I don't have a problem with VB .net or C# .net myself I realise there are others who don't wish to use it for one reason or another. The main one being that the .net runtime environment is extremely huge, and installing third-party components can become a headache. If you install this or that component in the wrong order you can break compatibility and have to uninstall and reinstall everything correctly. This is probably one of the most frustrating aspects to using .net based software. However, there are plenty of good thingsabout .net as well. As for Ken's desire not to use BGT I think I understand his point of view. For him he wants to actually program a game from scratch, get a feel for how the code works, rather than depending on tools like BGT that hides all the low level workings of DirectX, Sapi, etc and gives you a nice easy to use wrapper. BGT is nice, but if you want to actually know how all that stuff really works you need something else, a real programming language, to get down to the nitty-gritty of the mechanics etc. Cheers! On 1/30/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Ken, You say others can work on it. This is the exact problem we have. Other people can't work on it if they do not have any of the .net development platforms. I am one of these and have BGT, which is fine for all of my development needs. It is portable, it is cheap, and it is packed with nice game features that even DirectX cannot compare with. For example adding ogg support to DirectX is yet another dependency and another farce. However with BGT, it is very easy, as it is integrated into the engine. Encryption and packing features is another nice advantage. Granted this is not required for an open source game, but for compiled games it is easier to encrypt and package sounds than it ever would have been for VB or C directly, let alone the .net platforms. That's your main problem with a community based game. Not everyone might have the development platform it is designed for. I want BGT, you don't have it. You want .net or vb6, I don't have it. Someone else might even want to convert it to python, which neither of us might have. Simply because all the developers are experienced in different languages makes a community open source game hard to maintain, simply because all the developers will want it translating into their language so that they can help to maintain it, which gives us several different executables. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Ken wrote: I don't know what xaudio2 is, but personally directX is terrible when it comes to 3d audio. My reply: XAudio2 is the new audio API for DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 that began shipping with Windows Vista and Windows 7. DirectSound is deprecated, no longer supported by Microsoft, and only ships with the DirectX runtime as legacy support for XP and earlier. Most newer games for the PC now are switching over to XAudio2 as that has largely replaced DirectSound as the audio API for Windows games.That's why libraries like dx8vb.dll and so on are becoming so out of date. Ken wrote: stay away from dx8! I don't know how the latest directx is doing, but hopefully it's a lot better than dx8. My reply: Well, there have been a number of major changes in the DirectX API since DirectX 8 as you can imagine. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2 which is a superior audio API. DirectInput is still being used, but there is a new library, XInput, that will eventually phase DirectInput out. XInput was written to provide cross-platform support for game controllers between the XBox 360 and PC games. Direct3D 11 is of course far superior in the graphics rendering department than was Directdraw 8. Unfortunately, if you are interested in using Direct3D 11 you must have Windows 7 as Direct3D 11 is not available on Windows XP, and nor does Microsoft plan on making a version available for XP. Ken wrote: I wouldn't really even think of switching from vb6 to vb .nett except that my hopes are that I'll be able to use Openal or Directx 11 (and that dx11 will be much better than dx8.) My reply: Well, as far as OpenAL goes there are a couple of ways to use it. There is an API called SFML which has a .net managed version for C# .net and VB .net. The thing is that there is a critical bug in the graphics renderer that causes SFML to crash on Windows computers. However, seams to work fine on Mac and Linux. The other option is there is suppose to be a .net implamentation of OpenAL in development, but the project hasn't been updated in ages. You would probably have to checkout the source, update the API yourself, before using it in a C# .net application. From what I seen of the OpenAL for .net project it has a long ways to go before it is ready for serious game development. However, there is a better option here. Since you are writing free games you could always use FMOD Ex by firelight technology. FMOD has 3d audio support plus can load and play a number of file types like ogg, mp3, wma, wav, aif, and so on. In terms of an audio library it is the best solution for a developer in my opinion. As far as DirectX 11 goes I haven't checked out SlimDX in quite a while, but last I heard they were upgrading SlimDX to include DirectX 11 support. I do know that SlimDX, an open source managed wrapper for DirectX, has support for most of the DirectX libraries such as DirectInput, DirectSound, XAudio2, Direct3D, and so on. The problem with DirectX 11 you will encounter is that it is Windows 7 specific. That is in order to use DirectX 11 components like Direct3D 11 you need to upgrade to Windows 7. Unfortunately, beginning with Windows Vista Microsoft began creating Windows specific versions of DirectX which will make your job as a game developer more difficult. If you only have XP your out of luck if you want certain DirectX 11 components. Direct3D 11 is one such component I am sure will not run on XP at all. Your best option at this point would be to aim for DirectX 9. At least if you use Direct3D 9, XAudio2, etc you would maintain compatibility with XP as well as support Windows 7 too. It is just that you won't get all the extras that something like Direct3D 11 might offer. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Damien, Well, as I wrote my own game engine to make my life simpler I definitely understand where you are coming from. I don't especially want to write and rewrite anything any more than I absolutely have to. However, I think Ken's basic argument is that it gives him a greater amount of control over his work. A better understanding of how things work if he codes it all himself. That was certainly true for me when I started programming games without the aid of something like BGT. I learned a greater awareness of how my games worked, and I hhad full control of each and every aspect of the code. All of this is based on the opinion that BGT has limitations. One of these is that BGT doesn't offer 3d audio and relies upon 2d stereo panning. If this is a feature Ken really wants and can't wait for Philip to add it, and then it makes sense why he would turn to VB, C#, or something else to get the job done. Although, I recognise how useful BGT is I've chosen not to buy it for similar reasons. I have total control of the code, and there are things BGT doesn't have I can add to my own game engine as needed without waiting on a third-party developer to provide those features I want. Cheers! On 1/31/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I don't understand the point though of only making things harder for yourself if the tools are available to make it simpler? It's almost like making your own game engine for one game and then completely rewriting it for the second game just because you want to use a more advanced method or concept. It's like wanting to program your own MIDI messages instead of using a keyboard and sound module just because you want to understand how MIDI works in order to get the best from it. It's only the same thing in the end up. Just my opinion. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Jeremy, The only thing I can glean from what you just wrote is you missed the point. This isn't just for Kin's development. It is hardly practical for us all to start buying up copies of VB6. I happen to have a copy myself but that certainly doesn't mean everyone does. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:39 PM To: audyssey Subject: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb The entire issue of which language to use comes down to a single question, is this work or art? If a developer works for you then have every right to dictate how the project will go, and that would include how it was accomplished. In the end, the developer's goal is to meet your needs and satisfy you. If, however, the project is a personal endeavor then it is categorized as an art. When an artist is creating he, or she, is doing so to meet their own needs and no one else should ever expect to be satisfied also. If others enjoy the end result that is an excellent bonus, but it should never be expected to the point that the observers treat it like anything less than an artist at work. To a programmer, the language they choose is their instrument. I doubt any of us would have the gall to tell a musician they should switch to piano if they are composing a song with a harp. Every person probably has a favorite instrument but clearly it isn't any of our business which instrument someone uses. Someone could make the claim that a pianist should abandon his clunky real piano in favor of synth software. When it comes to art, convenience isn't important. Just because game engines or tools exist to speed up game development, there is still no justification to pressure an artist into using them. In my opinion, it is disrespectful to treat their art as work expected to make others happy. If it brings a programmer personal satisfaction to write code from scratch then that is just fine. If there are any programmers floating around who use languages so absolutely outdated that no one on the planet can even run their games, I tip my hat to you as artists just as I would to the developers of the most popular game titles today. I believe art should be respected as art. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
This game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. Thanks for that. Being a gamer yourself, I know that you appreciate feedback--the good as much as the critical. Well, if you will help me port it to C.net, I'll take the bull by the horns. There's still lots of work to be done with it, and I know that if we port it, others can work on it too, which of course was the intent. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Well, in Directx you can't pan sounds--any sound, if you're going to have even one 3d buffer. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Clement Chou chou.clem...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb A question from someone who knows all squat about programming... but could you not set the audio to pan while you were turning? Say you have the game programmed to turn someone around in a full circle rather than having each tap of the arrow key turn a certain number of degrees, could you not then set the audio to match that? Or is that a fault of the 3D audio functionality itself? At 10:27 PM 29/01/2011, you wrote: Hi Philip, What you say about 3d audio is quite true. I have been working on a 3d engine, and unfortunately the test games I've created using 3d audio don't sound quite right;. Especially, the bit where if you turn a sound source will skip from the left speaker to the right just like that. It makes centering anything a pain. Plus, DirectSound doesn't work right on Windows 7 anyway making my attempts to test DirectSound's 3d audio support practically impossible to get right. Which brings us right back to Ken's game. I don't know if Ken knows this but DirectSound is broken on Windows 7. As a result Heli needs to use something else like FMOD Ex, XAudio2, or something else if Ken wants to have 3d audio support in Heli and have it work with Win 7. Else this game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. On 1/30/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi, at this point it's worth saying that realtek and creative have written applications that allow you to get the direct sound 3d functionality back. I've never tried them since I am currently on xp, but I heard they do exist. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb Hi Philip, What you say about 3d audio is quite true. I have been working on a 3d engine, and unfortunately the test games I've created using 3d audio don't sound quite right;. Especially, the bit where if you turn a sound source will skip from the left speaker to the right just like that. It makes centering anything a pain. Plus, DirectSound doesn't work right on Windows 7 anyway making my attempts to test DirectSound's 3d audio support practically impossible to get right. Which brings us right back to Ken's game. I don't know if Ken knows this but DirectSound is broken on Windows 7. As a result Heli needs to use something else like FMOD Ex, XAudio2, or something else if Ken wants to have 3d audio support in Heli and have it work with Win 7. Else this game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. On 1/30/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, You say others can work on it. This is the exact problem we have. Other people can't work on it if they do not have any of the .net development platforms. I am one of these and have BGT, which is fine for all of my development needs. It is portable, it is cheap, and it is packed with nice game features that even DirectX cannot compare with. For example adding ogg support to DirectX is yet another dependency and another farce. However with BGT, it is very easy, as it is integrated into the engine. Encryption and packing features is another nice advantage. Granted this is not required for an open source game, but for compiled games it is easier to encrypt and package sounds than it ever would have been for VB or C directly, let alone the .net platforms. That's your main problem with a community based game. Not everyone might have the development platform it is designed for. I want BGT, you don't have it. You want .net or vb6, I don't have it. Someone else might even want to convert it to python, which neither of us might have. Simply because all the developers are experienced in different languages makes a community open source game hard to maintain, simply because all the developers will want it translating into their language so that they can help to maintain it, which gives us several different executables. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb This game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. Thanks for that. Being a gamer yourself, I know that you appreciate feedback--the good as much as the critical. Well, if you will help me port it to C.net, I'll take the bull by the horns. There's still lots of work to be done with it, and I know that if we port it, others can work on it too, which of course was the intent. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi, Thanks. That's certainly good to know. However, the fact remains, this still would just be one more piece of software someone would have to get and install just to acquire XP functionality under Windows 7. It seams to me in the long term it is better to switch to FMOD or XAudio2 rather than sticking with DirectSound. Cheers! On 1/30/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, at this point it's worth saying that realtek and creative have written applications that allow you to get the direct sound 3d functionality back. I've never tried them since I am currently on xp, but I heard they do exist. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
It's not that BGT doesn't at all interest me. There are a lot of appealing features, and I know I won't be able to resist once the 3d audio is implemented. Delving into BGT as I doubtless will, I seriously doubt it will be my only method of programming for games. For one thing, as much as I dislike programming, when I program a game from the ground up I know exactly how the game works. I can tweak the finest details, and know just how a sub or function works. I guess that learning is another reason I like to program. Also, if I had a new idea about a game, and a particular feature wasn't supported yet, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it but suggest and wait, which would mean that someone else would either have to do the work for me or it wouldn't get done. Another thing I would like to do eventually is make games that blind people can play with friends and family. If I could find someone to do the graphics, I could do the sounds and the rest of it, or I might start adding audio effects and other things to make preexisting games accessible. There is a pong 3d game in a book on programming vb.net that I have. If I ever wrap my brain around VB.net, I'd like to put it together and modify it for our community. My kids are into arcade games, and we only have a couple that have graphics, (one being Quake which they aren't allowed to play of course,) so I'd like to expand that arena as well. Also, I guess that when I saw the BGT code for the first time, I instantly thought of C, and Quake C in particular. (I've still got some loose neurons bouncing around in my head from messing with that.) I'm sure it's not nearly as bad as all that though. I'll certainly try out BGT when the 3d audio becomes fully supported, because every game idea I have would use 3d audio. Really I find very little dimensionality in games that just have panning and volume--it's like what a sighted person would feel playing Pole Position on a c64. And no, I'm not trying to insult the makers of all the games that don't use it, or I would be insulting myself too. They are great games still, (and yes, I still actually play Pole Position for the C64 at times, as well as all these other games,) but in general it's time to move on. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli Hi Ken, I realize that you are not interested in BGT in its current state, but I have some news in case they interest you for the future. I am going to add 3d sound to BGT in a release fairly soon, and I have already added mouse support as well as a bunch of other things like pathfinding for artificial intelligence. On another note, you would not need to buy anything to use BGT for open source software. It's totally free. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:41 AM Subject: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli There is a vb.net studio called Sharp Develop. I have no idea how to use vb.net, but if someone would port what I have to vb.net, then I imagine many more people could work on it, and not have to buy anything either. Plus,the latest version of Direct Audio could be used instead of DirectX 8, and who knows how much more powerful the game could be. BGT not having 3d was the first reason I chose not to go with it. The second is that I know vb6 pretty well. I am certainly willing to change to vb.net, but to tell you the truth, I don't learn very well unless I have code right in front of me to play with. Well, I can't say that exactly, as I had to develop the 3d audio engine by myself from descriptions, but we're talking about a whole new language here, a whole new way to do things. In other words, I'd be grateful if someone could port this to vb.net, not offended. I don't know that I won't still use BB6 instead--I'm mainly a hobby programmer, not a pro making a lot of money by selling the cutting-edge games like Tom and others. I think that if you have the patience and dedication to make such games, that's awesome. My enjoyment comes from exploring frontiers, like 3d audio in vb6, and like using the mouse, another area that still could be opened up a bit. My real enjoyment in working with computers though is creating sound effects and music; if I program a game, it's just because I get this idea in my head that won't leave me alone till I've made the game. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:10 AM Subject: my ramblings about programming: why I use vb It's not that BGT doesn't at all interest me. There are a lot of appealing features, and I know I won't be able to resist once the 3d audio is implemented. Delving into BGT as I doubtless will, I seriously doubt it will be my only method of programming for games. For one thing, as much as I dislike programming, when I program a game from the ground up I know exactly how the game works. I can tweak the finest details, and know just how a sub or function works. I guess that learning is another reason I like to program. Also, if I had a new idea about a game, and a particular feature wasn't supported yet, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it but suggest and wait, which would mean that someone else would either have to do the work for me or it wouldn't get done. Another thing I would like to do eventually is make games that blind people can play with friends and family. If I could find someone to do the graphics, I could do the sounds and the rest of it, or I might start adding audio effects and other things to make preexisting games accessible. There is a pong 3d game in a book on programming vb.net that I have. If I ever wrap my brain around VB.net, I'd like to put it together and modify it for our community. My kids are into arcade games, and we only have a couple that have graphics, (one being Quake which they aren't allowed to play of course,) so I'd like to expand that arena as well. Also, I guess that when I saw the BGT code for the first time, I instantly thought of C, and Quake C in particular. (I've still got some loose neurons bouncing around in my head from messing with that.) I'm sure it's not nearly as bad as all that though. I'll certainly try out BGT when the 3d audio becomes fully supported, because every game idea I have would use 3d audio. Really I find very little dimensionality in games that just have panning and volume--it's like what a sighted person would feel playing Pole Position on a c64. And no, I'm not trying to insult the makers of all the games that don't use it, or I would be insulting myself too. They are great games still, (and yes, I still actually play Pole Position for the C64 at times, as well as all these other games,) but in general it's time to move on. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli Hi Ken, I realize that you are not interested in BGT in its current state, but I have some news in case they interest you for the future. I am going to add 3d sound to BGT in a release fairly soon, and I have already added mouse support as well as a bunch of other things like pathfinding for artificial intelligence. On another note, you would not need to buy anything to use BGT for open source software. It's totally free. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:41 AM Subject: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli There is a vb.net studio called Sharp Develop. I have no idea how to use vb.net, but if someone would port what I have to vb.net, then I imagine many more people could work on it, and not have to buy anything either. Plus,the latest version of Direct Audio could be used instead of DirectX 8, and who knows how much more powerful the game could be. BGT not having 3d was the first reason I chose not to go with it. The second is that I know vb6 pretty well. I am
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Philip, What you say about 3d audio is quite true. I have been working on a 3d engine, and unfortunately the test games I've created using 3d audio don't sound quite right;. Especially, the bit where if you turn a sound source will skip from the left speaker to the right just like that. It makes centering anything a pain. Plus, DirectSound doesn't work right on Windows 7 anyway making my attempts to test DirectSound's 3d audio support practically impossible to get right. Which brings us right back to Ken's game. I don't know if Ken knows this but DirectSound is broken on Windows 7. As a result Heli needs to use something else like FMOD Ex, XAudio2, or something else if Ken wants to have 3d audio support in Heli and have it work with Win 7. Else this game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. On 1/30/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
A question from someone who knows all squat about programming... but could you not set the audio to pan while you were turning? Say you have the game programmed to turn someone around in a full circle rather than having each tap of the arrow key turn a certain number of degrees, could you not then set the audio to match that? Or is that a fault of the 3D audio functionality itself? At 10:27 PM 29/01/2011, you wrote: Hi Philip, What you say about 3d audio is quite true. I have been working on a 3d engine, and unfortunately the test games I've created using 3d audio don't sound quite right;. Especially, the bit where if you turn a sound source will skip from the left speaker to the right just like that. It makes centering anything a pain. Plus, DirectSound doesn't work right on Windows 7 anyway making my attempts to test DirectSound's 3d audio support practically impossible to get right. Which brings us right back to Ken's game. I don't know if Ken knows this but DirectSound is broken on Windows 7. As a result Heli needs to use something else like FMOD Ex, XAudio2, or something else if Ken wants to have 3d audio support in Heli and have it work with Win 7. Else this game will only work correctly on Windows XP. Too bad because I actually like the game so far. On 1/30/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Ken, What you say makes perfect sense. I am pretty sure that BGT will not support full 3d graphics anytime soon, though one never knows what might happen in the future. As for 3d audio it is something that I will certainly implement, though I am not a big fan of it myself. At least, not of that in DirectSound. It is not realistic unless you have a full surround setup, and much harder to pinpoint precisely where objects are located than if stereo is used. And then you have the horribly annoying effect where a sound source jumpes all the way from left to right if you are close to it and turn on the x axis. Just a few reasons why 3d audio isn't really my thing, though I'm sure it can be put to great use by those who are interested in it. I might change my mind once I begin testing the 3d simulation provided by XAudio2, which will happen fairly soon as I am just waiting for my hired developer to finish coding that part. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi Ken, Oh, I do understand your point of view. That is one principle reason I wrote my own game engine, G3D, instead of investing in something like BGT. I have the skills to write things my way so there isn't any reason not to do it. However, my issue with VB has to do with the fact the technology is out of date and is largely incompatible with newer computers. For example, you are talking about using 3d audio support. That's great but DirectSound 8 is broken on Windows 7, and of course Microsoft has no intention of fixing it. They have XAudio2 now, and DirectSound is deprecated. This puts gamers like myself in a bad position because we still want to play games like Heli, but run the latest Windows software. We can't easily do both when a game like Heli largely relies on Windows 98, ME, and XP era APIs rather than being updated to use the current APIs. While 3d audio might work fine on your system it doesn't work fine on my laptop which is running Win 7. So I think you can see why I am making an issue of this. Smile. On 1/30/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: It's not that BGT doesn't at all interest me. There are a lot of appealing features, and I know I won't be able to resist once the 3d audio is implemented. Delving into BGT as I doubtless will, I seriously doubt it will be my only method of programming for games. For one thing, as much as I dislike programming, when I program a game from the ground up I know exactly how the game works. I can tweak the finest details, and know just how a sub or function works. I guess that learning is another reason I like to program. Also, if I had a new idea about a game, and a particular feature wasn't supported yet, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it but suggest and wait, which would mean that someone else would either have to do the work for me or it wouldn't get done. Another thing I would like to do eventually is make games that blind people can play with friends and family. If I could find someone to do the graphics, I could do the sounds and the rest of it, or I might start adding audio effects and other things to make preexisting games accessible. There is a pong 3d game in a book on programming vb.net that I have. If I ever wrap my brain around VB.net, I'd like to put it together and modify it for our community. My kids are into arcade games, and we only have a couple that have graphics, (one being Quake which they aren't allowed to play of course,) so I'd like to expand that arena as well. Also, I guess that when I saw the BGT code for the first time, I instantly thought of C, and Quake C in particular. (I've still got some loose neurons bouncing around in my head from messing with that.) I'm sure it's not nearly as bad as all that though. I'll certainly try out BGT when the 3d audio becomes fully supported, because every game idea I have would use 3d audio. Really I find very little dimensionality in games that just have panning and volume--it's like what a sighted person would feel playing Pole Position on a c64. And no, I'm not trying to insult the makers of all the games that don't use it, or I would be insulting myself too. They are great games still, (and yes, I still actually play Pole Position for the C64 at times, as well as all these other games,) but in general it's time to move on. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi, No, you can't do that. With DirectSound, FMOD, and various other audio APIs I have used once 3d audio is enabled on a specific buffer you can not use stereo panning. Same is true for panning. If you create a stereo buffer and set panning to true you can not apply 3d positioning to that buffer. For APIs like OpenAL and XAudio2 there is no stereo panning and 3d positioning is all you have. HTH On 1/30/11, Clement Chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: A question from someone who knows all squat about programming... but could you not set the audio to pan while you were turning? Say you have the game programmed to turn someone around in a full circle rather than having each tap of the arrow key turn a certain number of degrees, could you not then set the audio to match that? Or is that a fault of the 3D audio functionality itself? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Okay. Something else I learned today... but how do games like Shades of Doom, GMA tank commander and various PC mainstream games manage to have that effect? At 10:42 PM 29/01/2011, you wrote: Hi, No, you can't do that. With DirectSound, FMOD, and various other audio APIs I have used once 3d audio is enabled on a specific buffer you can not use stereo panning. Same is true for panning. If you create a stereo buffer and set panning to true you can not apply 3d positioning to that buffer. For APIs like OpenAL and XAudio2 there is no stereo panning and 3d positioning is all you have. HTH On 1/30/11, Clement Chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: A question from someone who knows all squat about programming... but could you not set the audio to pan while you were turning? Say you have the game programmed to turn someone around in a full circle rather than having each tap of the arrow key turn a certain number of degrees, could you not then set the audio to match that? Or is that a fault of the 3D audio functionality itself? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] my ramblings about programming: why I use vb
Hi, I imagine they do some sort of miner adjustments to the 3d listener in order to create a smoth pan from left to right. I'm no expert on 3d audio, myself, so my implementation could be completely wrong. It doesn't help that Windows 7 and DirectSound don't work well together, and I really need something like FMOD or XAudio2 to do 3d properly on Win 7. On 1/30/11, Clement Chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: Okay. Something else I learned today... but how do games like Shades of Doom, GMA tank commander and various PC mainstream games manage to have that effect? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
