Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi tom.

Well that is a pest regarding the harpies flight, though on the pluss side 
having the ability to include vertical combat elements in a 2D game would be 
highly needed in the genesis engine I think if you were planning on creating 
games similar to mega man, castlevania etc.


So it might be a good exercise for the future anyway.

Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Ron,

Agreed. There are a number of classic 2d platformers that haven't been
explored before. As for Asteroids that is definitely something on my
todo list. Although, my Asteroids version will be a bit more advanced
than the original.

One reason I say that is now that I have a fully qualified 3d game
engine Asteroids is exactly the kind of game that could put it to use.
Outerspace, like everything else, is 3d, and since there are no mazes
etc it should be fairly easy enough to get to grips of flying a
spacecraft around in a 3d environment. Of course, there will be
massive Asteroids floating around you will have to avoid hitting and
the ocational UFO trying to blow you out of space. However, the game
will be more or less like a space flying simulation than the classic
arcade game. At least, that is the plan.

Cheers!




On 5/23/11, Ron Schamerhorn  wrote:
> Well I'd like to say that I think even though it's older, the side scroller
> has loads the VI can do with it yet.  A couple of the old games would be and
> I hope I'm not wrong here would be say Joust, Donkey Kong, QBert,
> Mousetrap, Asteroids, [Unfortunately that was happening but the dev died
> out.  Anyone able to contact him?] and many many more
>   I'm not trying to say we shouldn't do our best to keep up, but there's so
> much that the blind community hasn't seen before in an accessible format.
> Who cares if it is a fun game from say 15 years ago.
>   Myself my time was before the NES.  In fact the last ones I can honestly
> say I saw were from the Colecovision.  Awesome graphics for the time.
>   I think any and all devs are great for taking the time to take the time
> and contribute the best job they can.
>
> Take care
> Ron

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I know. HOwever, the Harpies are still not working right. I was
hoping ot release MOTA beta 19 today, but that is still one bug
holding the game back. I might disable the vertical combat feature
until I can nail down the bug. Actually, I think I know what is wrong,
and it has more to do with the fact all the game logic was
specifically designed for an 3d FPS shooter, and it can't operate
correctly in a 2d only environment. Thus I'll have to create different
functions to handle this issue.

On 5/22/11, dark  wrote:
> Actually Tom, i rediscovered rick dangerous recently sinse I found an online
> version of the original game using flash that I could manage to play, which
> is why I thought of the game.
>
> Horribly difficult with the instant death traps, but good fun all the same,
> there's a pretty nice artical on wikipedia about it as well if you want
> details.
>
> there was also a sequal, but I have never played that.
>
> Glad to hear about the mota harpies, this is actually something I've been
> thinking now for a while that would be a good addition to mota along with
> the analogue jumps.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories- Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Possibly, the game developer could post to the audyssey list, readers 
comment, and the mag's editor selects the cream of the crop for publication. 
I'm not sure about this idea, but just thinking out loud.  You know what a 
flood of Emails a topic can create.  (grin)


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Schamerhorn" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game 
production -Re:bringsbackmemories- Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Charles

 That's not bad at all and probably more tight then what I had originally
thought.  Perhaps It could be a section of two or three folks and their
experience and thoughts on game development.
 And this would provide a counterpoint to the Chatting with creaters
section of the mag.  So we take game x and set up both a developer and 
then

the end users thoughts?

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Rivard" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game
production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed


The bio is interesting.

My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is 
this:
I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as 
well.

Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the
Audyssey magazines?  It would be a good material source, and would also be
entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back
memories or providing background info.  Hmm.  How about a conduit for 
input

from readers?  That could become a regular article.  Gamers could give
recollections, game producers could do so as well.  Something along the
lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game
producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a
particular game?  The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during 
game

production progress?  Basically, the "behind the scenes" enlightenment.
Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set 
up

that way, be avoided.

Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for
material for Audyssey came from my original thought.  I hope material for
the mag comes from my ideas?  Constructive feedback is appreciated.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed



Shaun,

   I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I 
actually

find it very informative and useful.  I like having some idea of how
things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will
likely change now, and in the future.  I think it would be an excellent
idea for several of the "old timers" to collaborate on a detailed audio
games history.  With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of
things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would
start to surface that had been long forgotten.

   I'm not really familiar with your phrase "hack it yourself", so you'd
probably have to define that for me.  I would have thought it was the 
same

as "opensource devs", but you seem to have differentiated them in your
last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended.

   I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not.  When
I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began 
teaching

myself programming so that I could make little games and things.  When I
had high school programming classes, I was the "expert" who would know
more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd
spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's
lesson, haha.  I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in
Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% 
of

what they "taught" me I had already learned myself before going.  All in
all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of 
paper

that says degree.  I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to
change my programming habits when those around me did.  I always focused
more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a
quarter of the time, by
not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the
time.  In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, 
but

for the most part it has benefited me.

   Since it seems I've started writi

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Ron Schamerhorn]

Well I'd like to say that I think even though it's older, the side scroller 
has loads the VI can do with it yet.  A couple of the old games would be and 
I hope I'm not wrong here would be say Joust, Donkey Kong, QBert, 
Mousetrap, Asteroids, [Unfortunately that was happening but the dev died 
out.  Anyone able to contact him?] and many many more
  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't do our best to keep up, but there's so 
much that the blind community hasn't seen before in an accessible format. 
Who cares if it is a fun game from say 15 years ago.
  Myself my time was before the NES.  In fact the last ones I can honestly 
say I saw were from the Colecovision.  Awesome graphics for the time.
  I think any and all devs are great for taking the time to take the time 
and contribute the best job they can.

Take care
Ron
 


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Ron Schamerhorn]

Hi Charles

  That's not bad at all and probably more tight then what I had originally 
thought.  Perhaps It could be a section of two or three folks and their 
experience and thoughts on game development.
  And this would provide a counterpoint to the Chatting with creaters 
section of the mag.  So we take game x and set up both a developer and then 
the end users thoughts?

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Rivard" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game 
production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed


The bio is interesting.

My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is this:
I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as well.
Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the
Audyssey magazines?  It would be a good material source, and would also be
entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back
memories or providing background info.  Hmm.  How about a conduit for input
from readers?  That could become a regular article.  Gamers could give
recollections, game producers could do so as well.  Something along the
lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game
producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a
particular game?  The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during game
production progress?  Basically, the "behind the scenes" enlightenment.
Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set up
that way, be avoided.

Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for
material for Audyssey came from my original thought.  I hope material for
the mag comes from my ideas?  Constructive feedback is appreciated.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed


> Shaun,
>
>I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I actually
> find it very informative and useful.  I like having some idea of how
> things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will
> likely change now, and in the future.  I think it would be an excellent
> idea for several of the "old timers" to collaborate on a detailed audio
> games history.  With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of
> things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would
> start to surface that had been long forgotten.
>
>I'm not really familiar with your phrase "hack it yourself", so you'd
> probably have to define that for me.  I would have thought it was the same
> as "opensource devs", but you seem to have differentiated them in your
> last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended.
>
>I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not.  When
> I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began teaching
> myself programming so that I could make little games and things.  When I
> had high school programming classes, I was the "expert" who would know
> more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd
> spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's
> lesson, haha.  I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in
> Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% of
> what they "taught" me I had already learned myself before going.  All in
> all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of paper
> that says degree.  I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to
> change my programming habits when those around me did.  I always focused
> more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a
> quarter of the time, by
> not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the
> time.  In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, but
> for the most part it has benefited me.
>
>Since it seems I've started writing a bio of myself, lol, I'll say a
> bit more.  I'm sure there are people floating around who assume I only
> know Visual basic 6.0, since that is what I've written my audio games in.
> For the record, I do know C++, C#, Java, Objective-C, and a few of the
> smaller ones they make you learn as you go through college.  In my
> stubbornness I just use the one I want to, depending on the task at hand.
> Oh crud, I'm sure I've j

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Shane Lowe]

well... You may have to use the mouse, but can that still be accessible? 
Also, I would actually be interested to see your combat game. God knows we 
need some free ones.


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed



First off, this is the second time I've written this post so it will 
probably be of lower quality this time around.  My browser decided to 
glitch and I lost a very lost post, that was probably a full page if not a 
page and a half.


As one of the new guys in the community, relatively speaking, I debated 
even commenting on this topic.  I wasn't around for the "golden era" so my 
perspective is extremely limited compared to those who have been around 
long enough to see the bigger picture.


That being said, I don't doubt things have slowed down with audio game 
development to some degree, I believe that is normal.  I do, also, agree 
with Dark that a well made game can still use old ideas.


Recently I assembled a list of the audio games and tools I have released. 
I was honestly shocked by how short that list was!  I kept thinking I had 
left things out, and it took me a while to accept that the list was 
accurate.  The reason I felt like I had done more is because for every 
game/tool I've released, I have 2 that were only partially finished. 
While developing a new game, if I discover existing games that use the 
same general idea, I will get discouraged.  The same is true when I read 
that someone else is currently developing a game with a similar style.  In 
those cases, I will just push my project aside and start work on another. 
Part of the way through that design, there's always a chance the same 
thing will happen again.


Even if only half of the other developers are like me, that is a lot of 
developers holding off on projects because they are searching for a unique 
idea.  Sure, if we stuck with it our games would be different in some 
ways, but they are still similar to something already out there.  I always 
ask myself the question, "Why waste time when I could be making something 
totally unique?"


Over the years, many audio games have been created, and they represent 
many different game styles.  For anyone trying not to repeat an existing 
game, this means our options are getting smaller and smaller all the time. 
New ideas are tricky, and they take longer to develop than the games based 
on old ideas.  It is only natural for things to slow down because of this. 
I believe that this would still be true even if the old classic game 
companies were still around.  They probably rode out the market until the 
trends started to change.  It was a smart move on their part, if that is 
what they did.


New ideas also run the risk of being rejected.  I released Daytona to be 
unique, and many people played it, but also many more didn't even care to 
try it.  That's not meant to put anyone down, but it is just a reality. 
The more new and unique you make a game, the more likely it is that you've 
narrowed down on your potential player base.  For this very reason I set 
my combat game aside because I didn't have faith that my player base would 
be large enough to help me support the ongoing server costs.  I'm also 
fairly certain my next Daytona game will be completely passed over by a 
sizable portion of the community simply because it requires the mouse to 
play.  I built Lunimals to be as close to "standard" as I could, and I'm 
sure its recent popularity speaks loudly in support of my theory.



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Actually Tom, i rediscovered rick dangerous recently sinse I found an online 
version of the original game using flash that I could manage to play, which 
is why I thought of the game.


Horribly difficult with the instant death traps, but good fun all the same, 
there's a pretty nice artical on wikipedia about it as well if you want 
details.


there was also a sequal, but I have never played that.

Glad to hear about the mota harpies, this is actually something I've been 
thinking now for a while that would be a good addition to mota along with 
the analogue jumps.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Hmmm...I never played Rick Dangerous. In fact, had never heard of it
until you mentioned it. That said it does sound like a game I would
have liked.

At any rate you have a point. Without the bouncing skulls there
wouldn't have been a vertical element of attack. I'd have to add some
sort of flying enemy such as a bat to have you look out ffor enemies
above you as well as on the ground. This I.E. is something I've
finally added to MOTA beta 19 as you now have to aim Angela's gun up
to shoot the harpies as the dive and attack you from above.

On 5/22/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> Well my dart suggestion was based parimarily upon game mechanics rather than
> implicit trap logic.
>
> The difficulty in avoiding a bouncing skull is that you need to either jump
> over it when it is on the ground in front of you, or sneak under it when it
> is above your head.
>
> If for audio reasons skulls in montizumas revenge couldn't be made to
> bounce, this leaves something of a vacuume, sinse spiders, snakes and
> rolling skulls can all be jumpved over, but nothing can attack you while in
> mid air.
>
> So obviously to preserve game difficulty and insure a variety of enemies we
> need an airial trap, and shooting darts just struck me as a logical one.
>
> how they may work, pressure plates or whatever, no idea, but I was
> primiarily thinking only of the game there, and being as montizumas return
> was not particularly realistic in explaining it's traps and monsters origins
> I didn't worry in this case.
>
> I'm not sure if you ever played an old game called rick dangerous (it mostly
> had releases on old computers like the amigar, atari st and ms doss), from
> the early 90'swhich featured exploring various temples much like montizumas
> return, and many indiana jones style traps like dropping boulders and
> swinging on ropes.
>
> It also had darts which fired out when you got to certain points, indeed
> many you needed to duck, or jump very quickly to get through. There was not
> a particular reason for the darts, other than them being an airial trap in
> the game.
>
> Indeed rick dangerous was in some ways like a more advanced monti, one hit
> death, extremely difficult traps and enemies, but an on going story which
> had you fighting evil criminal syndicate through temples rather the way indi
> fought the nazis.
>
> You also had a gun with limited amo, and some bundles of dynamite that could
> be used for both killing your enemies and blasting rocks out of your path.
>
> Actually it was a pretty fun game, especially because everytime you or
> someone else got killed you let out a very loud waaah! which was
> hilarious!
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Tom.

Well my dart suggestion was based parimarily upon game mechanics rather than 
implicit trap logic.


The difficulty in avoiding a bouncing skull is that you need to either jump 
over it when it is on the ground in front of you, or sneak under it when it 
is above your head.


If for audio reasons skulls in montizumas revenge couldn't be made to 
bounce, this leaves something of a vacuume, sinse spiders, snakes and 
rolling skulls can all be jumpved over, but nothing can attack you while in 
mid air.


So obviously to preserve game difficulty and insure a variety of enemies we 
need an airial trap, and shooting darts just struck me as a logical one.


how they may work, pressure plates or whatever, no idea, but I was 
primiarily thinking only of the game there, and being as montizumas return 
was not particularly realistic in explaining it's traps and monsters origins 
I didn't worry in this case.


I'm not sure if you ever played an old game called rick dangerous (it mostly 
had releases on old computers like the amigar, atari st and ms doss), from 
the early 90'swhich featured exploring various temples much like montizumas 
return, and many indiana jones style traps like dropping boulders and 
swinging on ropes.


It also had darts which fired out when you got to certain points, indeed 
many you needed to duck, or jump very quickly to get through. There was not 
a particular reason for the darts, other than them being an airial trap in 
the game.


Indeed rick dangerous was in some ways like a more advanced monti, one hit 
death, extremely difficult traps and enemies, but an on going story which 
had you fighting evil criminal syndicate through temples rather the way indi 
fought the nazis.


You also had a gun with limited amo, and some bundles of dynamite that could 
be used for both killing your enemies and blasting rocks out of your path.


Actually it was a pretty fun game, especially because everytime you or 
someone else got killed you let out a very loud waaah! which was 
hilarious!


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Right. However, like I said earlier I think a lot of it boils down to
either the developer doesn't know how to add this or that feature, or
they simply haven't experienced it before and thus never thought of
it.  I confess the idea of having a dart shoot you while jumping never
occured to me either. That is why end user suggestions are helpful is
maybe someone else will have an idea you didn't think of yourself.

For instance, take the poison darts in Mysteries of the Ancients. They
are pretty much borrowed straight out of Tomb Raider. What I mean by
that is there are hidden pressure plates in the floor and if you step
on one Angela will git stuck good with a poisoned dart/arrow. However,
if you can jump the pressure switch she'll avoid that trap. I don't
know how jumping would trigger that kind of dart.

On 5/21/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> I'd personally view analogue jumps as a very! complex feature indeed, where
> as say adding something like an extra arrow trap in an otherwise 2D game to
> give a vertical danger would seem less so, though i do take the point.
>
> At the same time though, I don't think this is particularly an excuse for
> developers to only stick to simple games, just perhaps a reason why certain
> trade offs need to be made occasionally.
>
> Look at the Mota switches. We have traded the extra fidly complexity, both
> of programming and of design, it would take for multiple switch types, but
> instead have other forms of trap such as the vanishing flaws to handle.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Tom.

I'd personally view analogue jumps as a very! complex feature indeed, where 
as say adding something like an extra arrow trap in an otherwise 2D game to 
give a vertical danger would seem less so, though i do take the point.


At the same time though, I don't think this is particularly an excuse for 
developers to only stick to simple games, just perhaps a reason why certain 
trade offs need to be made occasionally.


Look at the Mota switches. We have traded the extra fidly complexity, both 
of programming and of design, it would take for multiple switch types, but 
instead have other forms of trap such as the vanishing flaws to handle.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Maybe, but I do know also that the more complex the game the more
difficult it is to create. Sometimes attempting to add an advanced
concept to the game, if not correctly implamented, will cause the game
to break.

For example, remember back during beta 17 it was you or someone else
who braught up the subject of analog jumping. Well, I added it to beta
18, and while a bit buggy it seemed to work fine with DirectX. Well,
for beta 19 I recompiled the game with the cross-platform engine that
is mainly based on SDL and the analog jumping caused so many problems
I litterally had to take it out to get the game remotely stable again.
What I mean by that with SDL the analog jump system turned out to have
a number of side effects I didn't know about like if you jumped over a
fire pit as soon as Angela landed she'd start walking or running and
you couldn't stop her. She'd litterally continue running until she hit
a wall, ran into a trap, or would run right off a ledge and kill
herself. It was quite difficult to use, because it didn't happen all
the time but often enough to maret removal for the time being.

Basically, the moral of the story is although sometimes I and other VI
developers would like to incorperate some of these more mainstream
concepts like analog jumping there may be technical limitations or
issues preventing him/her from adding it. I'm certainly not saying
that adding an analog jump system etc is impossible, I'm sure it is,
but merely that since I've never done it before I came up with a poor
design that apparently worked with DirectX but totally went haywire
with SDL. I'm sure new game developers have the same sorts of issues
with trying to program similar advanced features or ideas when trying
to figure out the proper logic and functionality.

Cheers!


On 5/21/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> i agree with respect to blind gamers' experience of what graphical games use
> as concepts, sinse obviously if you cannot see all the elements of a game
> like mario brothers say, you cannot know how these work mechanically and
> thus attempting to create an accessible version will always miss concepts,
> however I'm less certain on the experience front.
>
> I've seen too many freeware developers of indi pc games to start believing
> that you need several millions, a big bunch of programmers and
> qualifications out of the ears to create good games.
>
> Obviously resources help, but I'm less convinced they are a necessity, and
> as already mentioned experience just takes time and work to acquire anyway.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Tom.

i agree with respect to blind gamers' experience of what graphical games use 
as concepts, sinse obviously if you cannot see all the elements of a game 
like mario brothers say, you cannot know how these work mechanically and 
thus attempting to create an accessible version will always miss concepts, 
however I'm less certain on the experience front.


I've seen too many freeware developers of indi pc games to start believing 
that you need several millions, a big bunch of programmers and 
qualifications out of the ears to create good games.


Obviously resources help, but I'm less convinced they are a necessity, and 
as already mentioned experience just takes time and work to acquire anyway.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking.  The idea is perfect for another
Tomb Hunter adventure starring Angela Carter, and instead of
completely writing a new back story for the character I simply add to
the one that is there. Plus with MOTA coming along smoothly now that I
have most of the bugs worked out of the new cross-platform engine I
can go to town creating another game of this nature.

On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> I'd say that, as it might be more marketable as another of an already
> existing series, that's the way I'd go.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

I'd say that, as it might be more marketable as another of an already 
existing series, that's the way I'd go.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Charles,

At this point the game is nothing more than an idea. However, it
definitely would not be one of those names. :D

All I can tell you is the idea will probably be set in South America
and probably deal with some Mayan or Inca  ruins instead of Aztec
ruins. The only problem I have with the idea now is I'm not sure
weather I should make this another Tomb Hunter game involving Angela
Carter, or go true retro and use a male explorer etc like Montezuma's
Revenge and Pitfall. I.E. a seperate game with no connection to the
Tomb Hunter games. Although, I think another Tomb Hunter game might be
more marketable as those games would have full 3d movement, sound, etc
where the other idea would be a retro side-scroller  like Pitfall or
something like that.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:

Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge.  If it is sort of a cross
between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my
head.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

At this point the game is nothing more than an idea. However, it
definitely would not be one of those names. :D

All I can tell you is the idea will probably be set in South America
and probably deal with some Mayan or Inca  ruins instead of Aztec
ruins. The only problem I have with the idea now is I'm not sure
weather I should make this another Tomb Hunter game involving Angela
Carter, or go true retro and use a male explorer etc like Montezuma's
Revenge and Pitfall. I.E. a seperate game with no connection to the
Tomb Hunter games. Although, I think another Tomb Hunter game might be
more marketable as those games would have full 3d movement, sound, etc
where the other idea would be a retro side-scroller  like Pitfall or
something like that.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge.  If it is sort of a cross
> between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my
> head.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge.  If it is sort of a cross 
between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my 
head.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Charles,

Smile. Definitely does. Speaking of Montezuma's Revenge I've got plans
to bring that game back. Well, not Montezuma's Revenge exactly but I
am thinking of a game that is a cross between Montezuma's Revenge and
Pitfall. Anyway, something in that style and genre at least which will
be more like the classic side-scrollers of the 80's rather than the
high tech games like MOTA.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
Ah.  They were jewels, not coins.  I haven't played the demo in a long 
time,

and it shows.  (grin)

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

Smile. Definitely does. Speaking of Montezuma's Revenge I've got plans
to bring that game back. Well, not Montezuma's Revenge exactly but I
am thinking of a game that is a cross between Montezuma's Revenge and
Pitfall. Anyway, something in that style and genre at least which will
be more like the classic side-scrollers of the 80's rather than the
high tech games like MOTA.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> Ah.  They were jewels, not coins.  I haven't played the demo in a long time,
> and it shows.  (grin)
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Jeremy Kaldobsky]

I spent the first 2 weeks of January on vacation in Florida.  I don't remember 
how many days into the vacation it was, but I came up with the idea for 
Daytona, and programmed it, while I was there on the beach.  My guess is that 
I've misrepresented the date Rail racer came out, and that's why you're asking. 
 I guess I don't actually know when it officially came out, but right around 
the time I programmed Daytona I saw a lot of posts on the forum for the release 
of Rail racer.  I assumed it had just come out.  OH I SEE MY MISTAKE!  I have 
been saying Rail racer, but I was thinking of Top Speed 3!  Whoops, I can see 
why that was very confusing, please forgive that mistake lol.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Ah.  They were jewels, not coins.  I haven't played the demo in a long time, 
and it shows.  (grin)


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Charles,

Floating coin? There were no floating coins in Montezuma's Revenge.
There were floating gems you had to jump up and catch. Some times you
had to swing off a rope to catch one while swinging or jumping to the
floor. That one wasn't too bad as you could get good at listening to
where it was and figure it out after a while.

HTH


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the 
beta
of Montezuma's Revenge.  The floating coin.  It took me a minute to 
figure

out that it was floating.  I was either too high, or I was too low.  Hmm.
It was in the middle??  I thought that was a neat little puzzle.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Sure, but then again let's not forget most of our devs aren't trained
professionals at this sort of thing. As a result they only program
what they know how to do, sometimes that is pretty simple from a
gaming point of view, or they themselves don't know any different. I
think as we've said before a lot of blind gamers have no idea of what
mainstream games are like, and don't really have anything to compare
their games to. So when someone like you or I come along, play it, its
easy to point out the lack of some more complex game play concepts
maybe they never considered before because they never played anything
like that themselves.

HTH


On 5/20/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi tom.
>
> I'm not saying that simplification in audio isn't needed sinse obviously the
> amount of information you can display in audio is much smaller, however
> there are occasions I feel where a developer has simplified things rather
> too much thus leading to a fairly basic left/right sterrio targiting affair.
>
> Myself, what I'd prefer to see is instead of developers saying "well concept
> x isn't possible" and simplifying the game, adding something extra in
> instead which adds another layer of complexity to the game.
>
> Say for instance in montizuma's revenge, if you decided bouncing skulls
> weren't workable have some other form of hazard added to the game instead
> which you could! show in audio, and would add in an enemy or layer of
> complexity to the game that you were missing with the skull movements.
>
> for instance, have firing horizontal arrows which would hit you either when
> jumping in the air or when climbing up and down ropes if you didn't time
> things correctly.
>
> Like the bouncing skulls these would add an element of danger into the game
> which specifically targited vertical movement, but would be quite possible
> to show in audio.
>
> A good example of where this has been done is actually in both alien outback
> and troopanum.
>
> Admitting that it is not possible to have 30 or so invaders on screen at
> once in an audio game, developers instead made different types of ships to
> make life interesting, and in alien outback, gave those ships unique attacks
> and weaponry such as bombs.
>
> ditto with the esp pinball tables and their minigames, sinse obviously it's
> not possible to include quite as much in an audio table as a graphical one
> simply for purposes of the scan, however by including some more complex
> routes and gameplay changes they give a similarly tricky experience.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

Floating coin? There were no floating coins in Montezuma's Revenge.
There were floating gems you had to jump up and catch. Some times you
had to swing off a rope to catch one while swinging or jumping to the
floor. That one wasn't too bad as you could get good at listening to
where it was and figure it out after a while.

HTH


On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the beta
> of Montezuma's Revenge.  The floating coin.  It took me a minute to figure
> out that it was floating.  I was either too high, or I was too low.  Hmm.
> It was in the middle??  I thought that was a neat little puzzle.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Hayden Presley]

HI Jeremy,
I'm confused. When did you come p with an idea for Daytona?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

Dark,

I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't
mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I
just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you
said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.  If
I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are
claiming has happened.

I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating
existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I
personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the
same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say
for sure that at least some do.

When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially
completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you
are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash
(turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game
similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an
Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me
to take it all the way to being released.  If I had no other game ideas, I
would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but
it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not?
lol!  Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it
I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make.  I
believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more
audio games coming out.

If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an
idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.
Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone
would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard, and
maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would
assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to
form shapes.  Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the
same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong.


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the beta 
of Montezuma's Revenge.  The floating coin.  It took me a minute to figure 
out that it was floating.  I was either too high, or I was too low.  Hmm. 
It was in the middle??  I thought that was a neat little puzzle.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Dark,

Yeah, I do see your point. A lot of the arcade games we have were
simplified for practical reasons. With Montezuma's Revenge, for
example, I did simplify things for very practical reasons. The one big
one being its hard to actually convey certain information through an
audio only medium.

For instance, the skulls. In my version the skulls only moved left
right, and you had to jump over them. There were certainly that kind
of skull in the original, but I totally left out the bouncing skulls.
I.E. the ones that were bouncing up and down. Those were trickier
because you had to run underneath them without them landing on you and
killing you instantly. I could never figure out a logical way to tell
you when a skull was up in the air and when it would be safe to run
under it before it landed. Yeah, yeah, people will say use pitch
changes  etc, but then the skulls sounded really weird and the speed
was so fast even with pitch changes you couldn't keep up. Trust me, I
tried it and I could never figure out a way to identify how and when
to run under a bouncing skull so left it out.

I think that other games lack features of the original mainstream
concepts for similar reasons. Its difficult, if not impossible, to
convey everything to a blind user through audio. Therefore we end up
with a sort of half-way game that is maybe 80% like the original idea,
but lacks a few advanced or more complex game play elements here and
there.

However, as far as Asteroids goes I don't think that type of game
would have to be converted to a 2d platformer at all. If anything else
now that I have Genesis 3D and Philip has BGT it should be relatively
easy to create a 3d Asteroids game with asteroids in true 3d space.
I.E. AAsteroids above and below the player as well as left, right, and
behind you. Now, that would be something worth playing. As an arcade
game it could get pretty advanced in navigation, math, and Physics and
might double as a type of flight simulator as well as an arcade game.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, dark  wrote:

Hi Tom.

Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, 
sinse
the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like 
double

dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2.
One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some
developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game 
from

others for reasons of audio.

Take Liams duckhunt game.

the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but 
any

angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as
well.

because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's
harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where 
as

originally it wouldn't.

Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even 
if
this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra 
sound

such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made
the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair.

Pipe is another one.

In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling
through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically
working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very 
quick

manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version.

I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the 
amount
of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical 
game,

games have been simplified down to something of a baseline.

Take something like asteroids.

Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and 
your

spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a
huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire 
all

around you and asteroids coming from all angles.

I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an
audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to
reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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You 

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi tom.

I'm not saying that simplification in audio isn't needed sinse obviously the 
amount of information you can display in audio is much smaller, however 
there are occasions I feel where a developer has simplified things rather 
too much thus leading to a fairly basic left/right sterrio targiting affair.


Myself, what I'd prefer to see is instead of developers saying "well concept 
x isn't possible" and simplifying the game, adding something extra in 
instead which adds another layer of complexity to the game.


Say for instance in montizuma's revenge, if you decided bouncing skulls 
weren't workable have some other form of hazard added to the game instead 
which you could! show in audio, and would add in an enemy or layer of 
complexity to the game that you were missing with the skull movements.


for instance, have firing horizontal arrows which would hit you either when 
jumping in the air or when climbing up and down ropes if you didn't time 
things correctly.


Like the bouncing skulls these would add an element of danger into the game 
which specifically targited vertical movement, but would be quite possible 
to show in audio.


A good example of where this has been done is actually in both alien outback 
and troopanum.


Admitting that it is not possible to have 30 or so invaders on screen at 
once in an audio game, developers instead made different types of ships to 
make life interesting, and in alien outback, gave those ships unique attacks 
and weaponry such as bombs.


ditto with the esp pinball tables and their minigames, sinse obviously it's 
not possible to include quite as much in an audio table as a graphical one 
simply for purposes of the scan, however by including some more complex 
routes and gameplay changes they give a similarly tricky experience.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

Ummm...Judgment Day is not a side-scroller. Its a virtical shooter in
the style of SpaceInvaders etc.

Cheers!


On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same?  Even though
> they are side scrollers, no.  This is why I don't think that the attitude of
> not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to
> look at what to produce.  I have an idea for a bowling game.  How many of
> them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted
> assistance from start to finish?  Should I produce it?  Should I get
> together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know
> programming?  Or should I forget it because of what already exists.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thomas Ward" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
> Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
>
>
>> Hi Dark,
>>
>> That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had
>> much experience with games outside this community and maybe what
>> his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of
>> well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then
>> another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of
>> course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in
>> game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based
>> on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from
>> played out.
>>
>> As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either.
>> Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space
>> Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun,
>> Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the
>> arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:
>>> Hi Tom.
>>>
>>> You are right about side scrollers.
>>>
>>> thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the
>>> issue
>>> comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style
>>> games.
>>>
>>> IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade
>>> principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order
>>>
>>> to
>>> wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio
>>> targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien
>>> spaceships or whatever.
>>>
>>> ditto with boppit or simon style games.
>>>
>>> If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or
>>> continuous
>>> plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of
>>> the game can be intrinsically different.
>>>
>>> Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and
>>> sfx.
>>>
>>> By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies,
>>>
>>> he
>>> could create a game more than different enough from the original for
>>> people
>>> to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves
>>> physical
>>> exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of
>>> gameplay
>>> elements.
>>> Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy
>>> title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were
>>> included.
>>>
>>> But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even
>>> though
>>> the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different
>>> to
>>> play.
>>>
>>> As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers
>>> produced
>>> in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.
>>>
>>> Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become
>>> interested just from the preview.
>>>
>>> A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to
>>> Tarzan
>>> jr? or Q9?  heck no!
>>>
>>> Beware the grue!
>>>
>>> Dark.
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers maili

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I do see your point. A lot of the arcade games we have were
simplified for practical reasons. With Montezuma's Revenge, for
example, I did simplify things for very practical reasons. The one big
one being its hard to actually convey certain information through an
audio only medium.

For instance, the skulls. In my version the skulls only moved left
right, and you had to jump over them. There were certainly that kind
of skull in the original, but I totally left out the bouncing skulls.
I.E. the ones that were bouncing up and down. Those were trickier
because you had to run underneath them without them landing on you and
killing you instantly. I could never figure out a logical way to tell
you when a skull was up in the air and when it would be safe to run
under it before it landed. Yeah, yeah, people will say use pitch
changes  etc, but then the skulls sounded really weird and the speed
was so fast even with pitch changes you couldn't keep up. Trust me, I
tried it and I could never figure out a way to identify how and when
to run under a bouncing skull so left it out.

I think that other games lack features of the original mainstream
concepts for similar reasons. Its difficult, if not impossible, to
convey everything to a blind user through audio. Therefore we end up
with a sort of half-way game that is maybe 80% like the original idea,
but lacks a few advanced or more complex game play elements here and
there.

However, as far as Asteroids goes I don't think that type of game
would have to be converted to a 2d platformer at all. If anything else
now that I have Genesis 3D and Philip has BGT it should be relatively
easy to create a 3d Asteroids game with asteroids in true 3d space.
I.E. AAsteroids above and below the player as well as left, right, and
behind you. Now, that would be something worth playing. As an arcade
game it could get pretty advanced in navigation, math, and Physics and
might double as a type of flight simulator as well as an arcade game.

Cheers!


On 5/20/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, sinse
> the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like double
> dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2.
> One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some
> developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game from
> others for reasons of audio.
>
> Take Liams duckhunt game.
>
> the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but any
> angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as
> well.
>
> because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's
> harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where as
> originally it wouldn't.
>
> Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even if
> this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra sound
> such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made
> the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair.
>
> Pipe is another one.
>
> In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling
> through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically
> working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very quick
> manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version.
>
> I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the amount
> of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical game,
> games have been simplified down to something of a baseline.
>
> Take something like asteroids.
>
> Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and your
> spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a
> huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire all
> around you and asteroids coming from all angles.
>
> I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an
> audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to
> reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Jeremy Kaldobsky]

As I've said, I do understand that some developers don't care if an idea is 
already out there, and I even understand why they feel that way.  My earlier 
statement was just to let everyone know that I personally don't do thing that 
way, and I assume I'm not alone in that way of thinking.

As a good example, I have just removed my NES duck hunt recreation from my list 
of games to make ROFL!  I hadn't really done much coding on it anyways, so I'm 
not bothered to toss it aside.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production- Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Not really.  I put the game there by accident.  Oops?

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Hayden Presley" 

To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" 
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production- 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Charles,
Um...just curious but are you classifying JD as a sidescroller?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:10 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same?  Even though
they are side scrollers, no.  This is why I don't think that the attitude 
of


not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to
look at what to produce.  I have an idea for a bowling game.  How many of
them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted
assistance from start to finish?  Should I produce it?  Should I get
together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know
programming?  Or should I forget it because of what already exists.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed



Hi Dark,

That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had
much experience with games outside this community and maybe what
his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of
well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then
another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of
course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in
game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based
on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from
played out.

As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either.
Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space
Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun,
Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the
arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games.

Cheers!


On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:

Hi Tom.

You are right about side scrollers.

thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the
issue
comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade 
style

games.

IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade
principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in 
order



to
wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio
targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien
spaceships or whatever.

ditto with boppit or simon style games.

If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or
continuous
plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area 
of

the game can be intrinsically different.

Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and
sfx.

By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new 
enemies,



he
could create a game more than different enough from the original for
people
to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves
physical
exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of
gameplay
elements.
Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy
title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were
included.

But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even
though
the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different
to
play.

As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers
produced
in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.

Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have 
become

interested just from the preview.

A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to
Tarzan
jr? or Q9?  heck no!

Beware the grue!

Dark.


---
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gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Tom.

Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, sinse 
the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like double 
dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2.
One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some 
developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game from 
others for reasons of audio.


Take Liams duckhunt game.

the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but any 
angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as 
well.


because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's 
harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where as 
originally it wouldn't.


Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even if 
this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra sound 
such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made 
the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair.


Pipe is another one.

In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling 
through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically 
working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very quick 
manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version.


I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the amount 
of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical game, 
games have been simplified down to something of a baseline.


Take something like asteroids.

Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and your 
spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a 
huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire all 
around you and asteroids coming from all angles.


I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an 
audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to 
reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Jeremy.

I personally wasn't thinking markitability at all, in fact such things are 
pretty much not my concern usuall.


However, I can think of a fair few examples where similar games have been 
created simply by people who wanted to show their superiority in level 
design and working with an established concept.


Take for instance one of my favourite freeware windows projects, T2002.

the developers built an engine to run the amigar platform game turrican on a 
pc, with original music and graphics. Then however they released a level 
editer all for nothing.


the editer has sinse been used by some very tallented designers to create 
over 150 extra levels for the game, all with different layout and structure, 
many with unique graphics and music, but all using the same Turrican 
gameplay and weaponry.


This is not to do with markitability, sinse everything is freeware, simply 
it is people's love of the concept of the Turrican idea, and their desire to 
take it to new places, indeed many of the new levels use far higher quality 
sfx, music and graphics than were ever possible with the original game, or 
were included with the original T2002 release.


If I personally ever get to the point of developing, it will not stop me if 
someone has created a similar game, provided what I am doing is absolutely 
my own design and idea.


Take for instance the fps example.

Were I to create an fps, it would have my! plot, my! weaponry, and my! 
characters, as well as levels and puzles designed by me.


this to my mind would be more than enough to make it a unique game for 
people to play, and would give me personally enough satisfaction to 
create,  indeed if I had the skills and the gma engine was stil 
available this is something I'd actually considder doing.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Hayden Presley]

Hi Charles,
Um...just curious but are you classifying JD as a sidescroller?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:10 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same?  Even though 
they are side scrollers, no.  This is why I don't think that the attitude of

not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to 
look at what to produce.  I have an idea for a bowling game.  How many of 
them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted 
assistance from start to finish?  Should I produce it?  Should I get 
together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know 
programming?  Or should I forget it because of what already exists.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed


> Hi Dark,
>
> That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had
> much experience with games outside this community and maybe what
> his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of
> well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then
> another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of
> course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in
> game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based
> on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from
> played out.
>
> As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either.
> Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space
> Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun,
> Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the
> arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:
>> Hi Tom.
>>
>> You are right about side scrollers.
>>
>> thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the 
>> issue
>> comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style
>> games.
>>
>> IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade
>> principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order

>> to
>> wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio
>> targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien
>> spaceships or whatever.
>>
>> ditto with boppit or simon style games.
>>
>> If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or 
>> continuous
>> plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of
>> the game can be intrinsically different.
>>
>> Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and 
>> sfx.
>>
>> By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies,

>> he
>> could create a game more than different enough from the original for 
>> people
>> to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves 
>> physical
>> exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of 
>> gameplay
>> elements.
>> Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy
>> title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were
>> included.
>>
>> But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even 
>> though
>> the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different 
>> to
>> play.
>>
>> As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers 
>> produced
>> in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.
>>
>> Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become
>> interested just from the preview.
>>
>> A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to 
>> Tarzan
>> jr? or Q9?  heck no!
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> Dark.
>
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>

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[shaun everiss]

Well I was in new zealand.
I got my first net enabled system in 1995, and my first modem in 1996-1997.
Yes I knew of bbs stuff being round but it was all us based never here.
At 12:18 a.m. 20/05/2011, you wrote:


Hi Shaun,

You forgot, but probably did not dial it up, but in the early 
nineties through at least the mid nineties the place to find 
accessible games and other accessible utility programmes etc was the 
Blink Link BBS in Pittsburgh run by Willie Wilson.  You know that 
was back when the BBSs were more popular than the Internet and Email 
was through the fidoNet.  And the BBSs had planet connect so that 
when I up loaded a new game to the BBS PC Ohio it would get shared 
all around the world with other BBSs.


BFN

Jim

- FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same?  Even though 
they are side scrollers, no.  This is why I don't think that the attitude of 
not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to 
look at what to produce.  I have an idea for a bowling game.  How many of 
them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted 
assistance from start to finish?  Should I produce it?  Should I get 
together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know 
programming?  Or should I forget it because of what already exists.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Dark,

That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had
much experience with games outside this community and maybe what
his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of
well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then
another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of
course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in
game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based
on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from
played out.

As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either.
Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space
Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun,
Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the
arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games.

Cheers!


On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:

Hi Tom.

You are right about side scrollers.

thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the 
issue

comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style
games.

IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade
principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order 
to

wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio
targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien
spaceships or whatever.

ditto with boppit or simon style games.

If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or 
continuous

plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of
the game can be intrinsically different.

Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and 
sfx.


By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, 
he
could create a game more than different enough from the original for 
people
to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves 
physical
exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of 
gameplay

elements.
Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy
title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were
included.

But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even 
though
the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different 
to

play.

As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers 
produced

in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.

Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become
interested just from the preview.

A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to 
Tarzan

jr? or Q9?  heck no!

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had
much experience with games outside this community and maybe what
his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of
well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then
another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of
course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in
game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based
on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from
played out.

As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either.
Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space
Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun,
Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the
arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games.

Cheers!


On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> You are right about side scrollers.
>
> thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue
> comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style
> games.
>
> IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade
> principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to
> wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio
> targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien
> spaceships or whatever.
>
> ditto with boppit or simon style games.
>
> If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous
> plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of
> the game can be intrinsically different.
>
> Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx.
>
> By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he
> could create a game more than different enough from the original for people
> to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical
> exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay
> elements.
> Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy
> title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were
> included.
>
> But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though
> the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to
> play.
>
> As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced
> in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.
>
> Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become
> interested just from the preview.
>
> A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan
> jr? or Q9?  heck no!
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Jeremy Kaldobsky]

I believe we are looking at the situation from different angles.  If I were 
simply looking for a marketable game, then I completely agree with you.  More 
money can be pulled from an an existing game design, as long as you twist the 
story and game play enough to be entertaining.  I, however, am not marketing my 
games, so my goals in creating them are not the same.

For me, when I am working on a game, I am trying to stand out and to offer up 
something new and innovative.  If 100 people specifically told me they would 
pay money for a pacman game that had a high score system, as an example, I 
probably still wouldn't make it simply because it goes against my efforts to 
innovate.  Some other developer, who has more of a marketing goal, would be 
able to swoop in and punch out exactly what the people are willing to pay money 
for.

You always need both kinds of people.  One group of developers profits by 
giving people what they specifically ask for, and the other group hopes to give 
people what they didn't even know they wanted yet.  Out of the two roads, I am 
clearly taking the more difficult, and less financially rewarding one.  lol, I 
suppose I am literally admitting that I'm foolish with how I do things.  Oh 
well, I guess I can't change what makes me happy, so I'll have to just continue 
down the road I've chosen.

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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Tom.

You are right about side scrollers.

thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue 
comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style 
games.


IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade 
principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to 
wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio 
targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien 
spaceships or whatever.


ditto with boppit or simon style games.

If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous 
plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of 
the game can be intrinsically different.


Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx.

By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he 
could create a game more than different enough from the original for people 
to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical 
exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay 
elements.
Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy 
title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were 
included.


But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though 
the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to 
play.


As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced 
in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you.


Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become 
interested just from the preview.


A side scroller set in the jungle?  isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan 
jr? or Q9?  heck no!


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

HI Dark,

Agreed. Think of how many side-scrollers were created between say 1984
and 1994. The original Pitfall and Montezuma's Revenge came out at
roughly the same time, similare game play elements, etc but were
actually quite different when you got down to it. Montezuma's Revenge
was about an explorer Panama Joe who was exploring an ancient Aztec
ttemple. Pitfall is about an explorer Harry, I think his name was, who
is in the Amazon jungle. Although, they are treasure hunting games
they really are quite different in game play and style.

My point being is I don't think game developer should be too worried
about creating tgames that are similar. Even something like DynaMan
and Packman Talks are different games. DynaMan doesn't have the same
sounds, music, enemies, or so on as Packman. So it would be unfair to
compare DynaMan to Packman Talks. Although, the concepts for DynaMan
andPackman Talks are similar. There is plenty of room to design
something similar as long as it stands out as a unique product.

Cheers!


On 5/19/11, dark  wrote:
> Hi Jeremy.
>
> while I agree to an extent, this sort of comment also makes me rather
> concerned that developers are narrowing their focus too much.
>
> If everything has to stick in that narrow band betwene too different and too
> much the same, we'll just see fewer and fewer games.
>
> take the fps genre.
>
> currently we have a number of first person games like sarah that are not
> shooters in the truist sense, in the shooter catagory we have audio quake,
> shades of doom, technoshock and, if we stretch the deffinition a litle, gma
> tank commander (first person tank driving and shooting).
>
> Terraformers is far more puzle based.
>
> suppose someone were thinking of a shooter game.
>
> shades of doom, while undoubtedly very much revolutionary and certainly the
> game that got me playing audio games, isn't all that is possible in the
> genre.
>
> suppose I were a developer and decided to create an fps game. Even if I
> wanted to do something fps horror there are so many other options. I might
> set the game on a space station you are sent to investigate, picking up
> messages from the dying crew, and give you weapons like pulse rifles and
> lasers.
>
> I might have you investigating a post apocalyptic radiation drenched area
> fighting mutants.
>
> i might have you in fact in the dreaded zombi appocalypse, fighting through
> everyday streets and shopping centers, where shotguns are rare and your
> having to mow zombies down with shopping trollies.
>
> I could have something gothic like resident evil set in a mantion with dodgy
> experiments,  afterall Shades is set in a high tech base deep
> underground.
>
> I could have an ancient cave system where a bunch of investigators find some
> mysterious creatures living.
>
> These are all different settings with their own weaponry, plot, possible
> puzles etc, and all would be different from shades, yet all would be first
> person shooter games.
>
> I'm fairly confident that if anyone created any of these, so long as it was
> well made enough it would be played and enjoyed by the community, despite
> being the same action and genre as shades.
>
> Remember, in mainstream game developement there are hundreds of games out
> there, often even in the same series.
>
> Look at mega man or mario. Same character (or broardly the same), same basic
> idea for each game, different level design, different enemies, different
> weapons , and some different mechanics.
>
> Not to mention continuing the actual plot from game to game.
>
> My personal view is if developers constantly say "we need something new, but
> not too new" we'll just end up cutting the amounts of games available, sinse
> while I'm deffinately all for new design concepts and interesting ideas, I
> don't think every single game has to be absolutely! different.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Bryan Peterson]

I'm the same way. Actuall the one I'm trying to cobble together now, at 
least in terms of storyline and gameplay mechanics at the moment, is an 
audio remake of Sid Meier's Pirates! I could never play the original so te 
idea of an audio version is extremely enticing.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: "Damien Pendleton" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Thomas,
I'm glad I'm not the only one then, although I must have at least 50 game 
ideas on the agenda. Lol.

Regards,
Damien.



- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re: 
bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Geremy,

Lol! Your bio sounds a bit like me. Like you I can't keep my mind or
attention focussed on any single project at a time. That is in part
why it is taking me so long to complete Mysteries of the Ancients.

My weekly schedule is crazy in part because I switch from project to
project from day to day. On Monday I might put four hours into
Mysteries of the Ancients, on Tuesday I might work on my wrestling
game idea, on Wednesday I'll be thinking about and writing down notes
for a Star Wars game, on Thursday I'll go back to Mysteries of the
Ancients, on Friday I'll work on what ever strikes my fansy. I'm
definitely a bit of a scatter brain at times.

Plus just because I go to bed, taking a shower, etc I often entertain
myself by thinking of new game ideas, thinking of how to improve an
existing idea, or preprogram some piece of code in my head. So just
because I'm away from my PC doing something like showering, traveling,
etc my mind is fully engaged on whatever project I'm working on.

Cheers!




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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi William.

an intereesting point about stratogy games as well is that the interface and 
use of combat has developed.


Galaxy ranger has nooverview commands for the map and all combat is a real 
tiem targiting shooter affair where you personally need to targit yourself.


sound rts has propper overview commands, but no way other than by 
calculation of for instance seeing what unit of yours is closed to an enemy.


time of conflict on the other hand has imho a possitively revolutionary way 
of using context sensative menues.


I'd not really class lunimals and towers of war in this catagory, sinse they 
are rather different in style, though undoubtedly stratogy games, but this 
just proves the point stil more that a good idea done well with it's own 
twist may be as good as a completely new concept.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Willem Venter" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game 
production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Hi Jeremy.
Thanks for the bio. From the quality and number of the games you
produce, I surmised that you have been programming for a while as
proficiency only comes with time and practice.

Over the years I can remember only one other developer, Ian Humfrees
from spoonbill games who released as many games at a short stage of
time.

Making a game is no joke, even if some make it look easy. I also agree
with those who said that any idea implimented well will be enjoyed.
The most important thing is choice. A few years ago for example, there
were only one strategy game with resource management, Galaxy ranger,
made around 2005. Then soundRTS came out in 2007 or 8, followed by
time of conflict and towers of wa last year and now lunar animals.
People take heart if some project is received well and they can learn
from mistakes other people made and players also know better what
would work and what doesn't.

As a blind programmer who likes strategy I am now considering creating
my own strategy game. This would however not have been possible
without the examples, as I have not been exposed to sighted strategy
games.



On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already 
exists

sure is narrowing your possibilities.  I think that only using original
ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little
finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the
eighth.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
heart.
- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game
production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed



Dark,

   I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't
mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, 
I

just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you
said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.
If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others 
are


claiming has happened.

   I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating
existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know 
I


personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do
the same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I 
can


say for sure that at least some do.

   When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also
partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a 
game

where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a
UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work
on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side
scroller with an Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt
unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released.  If I had
no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer 
to


some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a
different game idea so why not?  lol!  Rail racer was released around 
that


time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of 
my


list of game ideas to make.  I believe I'll continue to do the same 
thing

as I encounter more and more audio games coming out.

   If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had 
an

idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.
Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone
would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard,
and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in t

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Nice thought charles.

As someone who largely missed the doss days, and much of the early releases 
for windows, i'D BE GLAD TO READ IT,  INDEED AS RECENTLY HAPPENED WHEN i 
ASSUMED ORIGINAL TROOPANUM WAS RELEASED IN 20004, EVEN MY IDEA OF WHAT 
HAPPENED WHEN IS SOMETIMES A LITLE WONKY ;D.


bEWARE THE GRUE!

dARK. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi jeremy.

this really though shows my point, and wwhy I made the initial post.

there is a difference betwene a direct replication of what has gone before 
and a similar concept which may be a solid and playable game.


Agreed, if you merely had a game where you needed to form shapes with the 
mouse in order to operate machines, that would pretty much be similar to 
daytona.


However, suppose there was a game where you played as a trick racer in some 
futuristic plane using the mouse to control your movement.


You'd need to turn corners and avoid obstacles as per the corse, but suppose 
you could also gain extra points by performing stunts such as loops, barrel 
rolls, and making shapes in the sky with your com traile.


All the time though you'd stil have to be going round the corse itself, so 
after each shape you'd need to make sure you were in position to avoid an 
obstacle.


Like Daytona? yes.

Exactly! like daytona? no indeed.

worth playing? Quite possibly.

while I appreciate that everyone wants to make something new, I am very much 
of the opinion that it is possible to produce a new twist on an old theme, 
or indeed simply a solid exponent of a well known style that carries things 
in a different direction.


Other than space invaders, sterrio targiting affairs, I'd say no catagory of 
games is played out at all.


for instance, i know Che martin is adding a new game to his card room, which 
i very much expect to be a card game.


I'm very much looking forward to seeing what it is, despite the fact there 
are accessible card games kicking around, and even were it something like 
Cribbage which already has a well known accessible version, I'd be glad to 
play it as part of the cardroom with other people on the internet.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Geremy,

Well, as a game developer I think you are putting too much thought
into it. I.E. over thinking the problem. Just because you were
thinking of a game with an Indiana Jones type look and feel to it
doesn't mean it isn't marketable. I, for one, am a huge fan of such
games. Hense why I am creating my own series of games, Tomb Hunter,
that is loosely based on Tomb Raider.

In addition, to my Tomb Raider clones I've been thinking of creating a
game more or less like Pitfall. Some might say it is too much like the
games I've already created, given that Pitfall is basically your
Indiana Jones type game, but there are essential differences that does
make something like Pitfall different.

Pitfall for the most part takes place in a jungle. There are vines,
quicksand, natives, etc that is pretty unique to that game. Yeah, it
is sort of like Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider, but still is a different
game in game elements and game play. Plus if I were to create a game
like Pitfall I'd want to include some of the classic arcade elements
that made the ooriginal games great. That would make it something of a
retro remake of a classic, and could be a selling point. So I don't
know that the fact that a game that uses the same style or genre won't
sell or isn't marketable. We just have to be careful not too flood the
market.

Cheers!




On 5/19/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky  wrote:
> Dark,
>
> I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't
> mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I
> just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you
> said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.  If
> I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are
> claiming has happened.
>
> I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating
> existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I
> personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the
> same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say
> for sure that at least some do.
>
> When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially
> completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you
> are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash
> (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game
> similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an
> Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me
> to take it all the way to being released.  If I had no other game ideas, I
> would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but
> it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not?
> lol!  Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it
> I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make.  I
> believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more
> audio games coming out.
>
> If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an
> idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.
> Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone
> would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard, and
> maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would
> assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to
> form shapes.  Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the
> same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Willem Venter]

Hi Jeremy.
Thanks for the bio. From the quality and number of the games you
produce, I surmised that you have been programming for a while as
proficiency only comes with time and practice.

Over the years I can remember only one other developer, Ian Humfrees
from spoonbill games who released as many games at a short stage of
time.

Making a game is no joke, even if some make it look easy. I also agree
with those who said that any idea implimented well will be enjoyed.
The most important thing is choice. A few years ago for example, there
were only one strategy game with resource management, Galaxy ranger,
made around 2005. Then soundRTS came out in 2007 or 8, followed by
time of conflict and towers of wa last year and now lunar animals.
People take heart if some project is received well and they can learn
from mistakes other people made and players also know better what
would work and what doesn't.

As a blind programmer who likes strategy I am now considering creating
my own strategy game. This would however not have been possible
without the examples, as I have not been exposed to sighted strategy
games.



On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists
> sure is narrowing your possibilities.  I think that only using original
> ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little
> finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the
> eighth.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game
> production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
>
>
>> Dark,
>>
>>I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't
>> mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I
>> just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you
>> said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.
>> If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are
>>
>> claiming has happened.
>>
>>I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating
>> existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I
>>
>> personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do
>> the same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can
>>
>> say for sure that at least some do.
>>
>>When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also
>> partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game
>> where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a
>> UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work
>> on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side
>> scroller with an Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt
>> unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released.  If I had
>> no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to
>>
>> some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a
>> different game idea so why not?  lol!  Rail racer was released around that
>>
>> time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my
>>
>> list of game ideas to make.  I believe I'll continue to do the same thing
>> as I encounter more and more audio games coming out.
>>
>>If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an
>> idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.
>> Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone
>> would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard,
>> and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I
>>
>> would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the
>> mouse to form shapes.  Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't
>> stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Michael Feir]

I've often considered writing a book about the history of audio games.
An audio documentary would be ideal I suppose. I'm not yet competent
enough an audio editor for a project like that. Another difficulty may
be contacting some key figures who have chosen to distance themselves
from the community. James North would fall into that catagory. He did
an extraordinary amount for audio games often behind the scenes.
However, he burnt out pretty spectacularly leaving what must still be
the largest degree of polarisation and division behind. Such a history
wouldn't be complete without covering his rise and fall. It changed
the relationship between community and developers for quite a while. I
believe we're finally recovering from that chill these days but it
certainly took a while.

On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists
> sure is narrowing your possibilities.  I think that only using original
> ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little
> finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the
> eighth.
>
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game
> production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
>
>
>> Dark,
>>
>>I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't
>> mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I
>> just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you
>> said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.
>> If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are
>>
>> claiming has happened.
>>
>>I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating
>> existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I
>>
>> personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do
>> the same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can
>>
>> say for sure that at least some do.
>>
>>When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also
>> partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game
>> where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a
>> UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work
>> on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side
>> scroller with an Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt
>> unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released.  If I had
>> no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to
>>
>> some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a
>> different game idea so why not?  lol!  Rail racer was released around that
>>
>> time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my
>>
>> list of game ideas to make.  I believe I'll continue to do the same thing
>> as I encounter more and more audio games coming out.
>>
>>If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an
>> idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.
>> Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone
>> would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard,
>> and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I
>>
>> would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the
>> mouse to form shapes.  Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't
>> stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
&g

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists 
sure is narrowing your possibilities.  I think that only using original 
ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little 
finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the 
eighth.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game 
production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Dark,

   I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't 
mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I 
just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you 
said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. 
If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are 
claiming has happened.


   I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating 
existing game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I 
personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do 
the same.  I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can 
say for sure that at least some do.


   When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also 
partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game 
where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a 
UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work 
on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side 
scroller with an Indiana Jones feel.  Daytona was the only one that felt 
unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released.  If I had 
no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to 
some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a 
different game idea so why not?  lol!  Rail racer was released around that 
time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my 
list of game ideas to make.  I believe I'll continue to do the same thing 
as I encounter more and more audio games coming out.


   If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an 
idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. 
Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone 
would be comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard, 
and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I 
would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the 
mouse to form shapes.  Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't 
stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong.



---
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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Charles Rivard]

The bio is interesting.

My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is this: 
I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as well. 
Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the 
Audyssey magazines?  It would be a good material source, and would also be 
entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back 
memories or providing background info.  Hmm.  How about a conduit for input 
from readers?  That could become a regular article.  Gamers could give 
recollections, game producers could do so as well.  Something along the 
lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game 
producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a 
particular game?  The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during game 
production progress?  Basically, the "behind the scenes" enlightenment. 
Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set up 
that way, be avoided.


Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for 
material for Audyssey came from my original thought.  I hope material for 
the mag comes from my ideas?  Constructive feedback is appreciated.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - 
Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed




Shaun,

   I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I actually 
find it very informative and useful.  I like having some idea of how 
things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will 
likely change now, and in the future.  I think it would be an excellent 
idea for several of the "old timers" to collaborate on a detailed audio 
games history.  With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of 
things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would 
start to surface that had been long forgotten.


   I'm not really familiar with your phrase "hack it yourself", so you'd 
probably have to define that for me.  I would have thought it was the same 
as "opensource devs", but you seem to have differentiated them in your 
last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended.


   I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not.  When 
I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began teaching 
myself programming so that I could make little games and things.  When I 
had high school programming classes, I was the "expert" who would know 
more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd 
spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's 
lesson, haha.  I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in 
Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% of 
what they "taught" me I had already learned myself before going.  All in 
all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of paper 
that says degree.  I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to 
change my programming habits when those around me did.  I always focused 
more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a 
quarter of the time, by
not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the 
time.  In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, but 
for the most part it has benefited me.


   Since it seems I've started writing a bio of myself, lol, I'll say a 
bit more.  I'm sure there are people floating around who assume I only 
know Visual basic 6.0, since that is what I've written my audio games in. 
For the record, I do know C++, C#, Java, Objective-C, and a few of the 
smaller ones they make you learn as you go through college.  In my 
stubbornness I just use the one I want to, depending on the task at hand. 
Oh crud, I'm sure I've just summoned a barrage of comments from other 
programmers haha!  I've been programming pretty much every day since 1995, 
on all manner of personal projects.  My specialty is actually vision 
systems, which seems a little ironic since I'm also writing audio games! 
For those who might not know, this means I write software AI which uses a 
camera for input.  I'm currently waiting to see if my program has won 
$20,000 in an open engineering challenge sent out by the US air force.


   The last thing, before I stop my speech, is probably the number one 
most important thing to know about me.  I simply cannot keep myself on a 
single project.  At any given time I am probably working on 10 different 
projects, I think about them all day while I'm at work, I d

Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Jeremy Kaldobsky]

Dark,

I might have given the wrong impression with my last post.  I didn't mean 
to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant 
that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless.  As you said, if the 
developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games.  If I've been 
reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has 
happened.

I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing 
game styles, but I know I do.  Because this is something I know I personally 
do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same.  I can't 
really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at 
least some do.

When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially 
completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a 
world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out 
to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style 
to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel.  
Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way 
to being released.  If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck 
to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to 
just hop onto a different game idea so why not?  lol!  Rail racer was released 
around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games 
off of my list of game ideas to make.  I believe I'll continue to do the same 
thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out.

If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea 
that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it.  Yeah, it 
would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be 
comparing it to the existing game.  Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the 
mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume 
moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes.  
Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I 
am, but I don't think I'm wrong.


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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[Jim Kitchen]

Hi Shaun,

You forgot, but probably did not dial it up, but in the early nineties through 
at least the mid nineties the place to find accessible games and other 
accessible utility programmes etc was the Blink Link BBS in Pittsburgh run by 
Willie Wilson.  You know that was back when the BBSs were more popular than the 
Internet and Email was through the fidoNet.  And the BBSs had planet connect so 
that when I up loaded a new game to the BBS PC Ohio it would get shared all 
around the world with other BBSs.

BFN

Jim

- FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed

[dark]

Hi Jeremy.

while I agree to an extent, this sort of comment also makes me rather 
concerned that developers are narrowing their focus too much.


If everything has to stick in that narrow band betwene too different and too 
much the same, we'll just see fewer and fewer games.


take the fps genre.

currently we have a number of first person games like sarah that are not 
shooters in the truist sense, in the shooter catagory we have audio quake, 
shades of doom, technoshock and, if we stretch the deffinition a litle, gma 
tank commander (first person tank driving and shooting).


Terraformers is far more puzle based.

suppose someone were thinking of a shooter game.

shades of doom, while undoubtedly very much revolutionary and certainly the 
game that got me playing audio games, isn't all that is possible in the 
genre.


suppose I were a developer and decided to create an fps game. Even if I 
wanted to do something fps horror there are so many other options. I might 
set the game on a space station you are sent to investigate, picking up 
messages from the dying crew, and give you weapons like pulse rifles and 
lasers.


I might have you investigating a post apocalyptic radiation drenched area 
fighting mutants.


i might have you in fact in the dreaded zombi appocalypse, fighting through 
everyday streets and shopping centers, where shotguns are rare and your 
having to mow zombies down with shopping trollies.


I could have something gothic like resident evil set in a mantion with dodgy 
experiments,  afterall Shades is set in a high tech base deep 
underground.


I could have an ancient cave system where a bunch of investigators find some 
mysterious creatures living.


These are all different settings with their own weaponry, plot, possible 
puzles etc, and all would be different from shades, yet all would be first 
person shooter games.


I'm fairly confident that if anyone created any of these, so long as it was 
well made enough it would be played and enjoyed by the community, despite 
being the same action and genre as shades.


Remember, in mainstream game developement there are hundreds of games out 
there, often even in the same series.


Look at mega man or mario. Same character (or broardly the same), same basic 
idea for each game, different level design, different enemies, different 
weapons , and some different mechanics.


Not to mention continuing the actual plot from game to game.

My personal view is if developers constantly say "we need something new, but 
not too new" we'll just end up cutting the amounts of games available, sinse 
while I'm deffinately all for new design concepts and interesting ideas, I 
don't think every single game has to be absolutely! different.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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