Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
This sounds like a cool minigame. Shaking the gates: moneydrop Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows besides, the man has so much money, shaking him until lots of cash falls out you could use it to pay off everyone else :D. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi well I don't have a problem with n v d a myself. I've messed around with it a little bit, but the thing is that in order to not only learn windows 8 I now have to learn how to use a new screen reader to. witch will just make the learning that much longer for me. I'm not aganst learning new things. So now instead of it taking me a week or two to learn a new oS it will now take me two or three times as long. bfn James -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 4:52 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows I'm sorry, but I don't see how just because jaws can't access windows eight correctly, that it means windows eight is in accessible. Due to the fact that NVDA works with it perfectly well, and yes, I have tested jaws 14 myself. And I agree, JAWS 14 is hopeless in windows eight. But I don't think that that is Windows as a problem, I believe that that is Freedom scientific, saying that they have adapted the program for windows eight, when in actual fact, when I have tested it, it has very little access to the new functions of windows eight at all. So I would hazard a guess, that if you tried something like NVDA, I would think that you would find windows eight as accessible, if not more so, then other versions. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 4:45, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Yes I do know that little tidbit, but I was just joking around l o l. I was just trying to add a little huommer to the topic. I think that some people are missunderstanding what Dark was trying to say. He's not pointing the finger at the programers. Just at MS for not thinking things out like all ways. They did the same thing back with windows 2000 that had so many bugs it wasn't funny. then what they do they fix the problems and no time later they releassed the same produck, but just by a different name. Hello windows mE. then they did the same thing with vista and 7. they are the same thing just with all the bugs worked out, and now they have win 8. witch to me just is not screen reader friendlyI'm running jaws 14 that was made for win 8 and it is still a pain in the but. I think what Dark was trying to do here was bring us togetheras a community and try to solv this problem as far as not being abel to run 16 bit games anymore. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi. The only thing to keep in mind here, is that although the blind community still like their 16-bit applications, 99.9% of the rest of the world, stopped using 16-bit, a long, long, long! Time ago. LOL. And that, is what Microsoft have to keep in mind, when creating an operating system. There is very little point, in keeping a huge amount of code, just to keep 16-bit alive, when very few people are using it. And of course, you can still run a version of the older operating system, in a VM where, or other virtual machine. For all intents and purposes, you could have a Windows 8 computer, and have virtual versions of Windows 7, windows XP, windows ME, or any other version you desire. Or even Linnux on top of that, so I don't see that these are generally reasons not to upgrade. Don't get me wrong here guys, windows XP was fantastic in its time. But although XP still has its uses, for the older applications, Windows 7 upgraded things in a way, that most people don't realise, until they use it for a while. Very much like Windows 8 did so, and I have used windows eight now, for nearly 2 years. So I have had the chance to play around with it, and see the overall usage of it over a period of time. I agree however, that windows eight is a bit of a change, if you're not ready for it. It is different enough, to confuse people quite a bit. That's probably the only thing, that Microsoft made a mistake with. They changed the UI a little too much, and it's now very difficult to learn to use it at first. Once you do use it for awhile though, and you're used to it, it's fantastic. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 15:53, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: I don't think it's the changes to the interface that is the sole concern. It's more like not being able to play 16 bit games on a 64 bit system, the dropping of old legacy hardware from new pcs such as serial ports and parallel ports, I still use my old artic transport to play old dos games that don't read well with jaws and NVDA, and some hardware I use requires the use of an lpt port and no, it's not a printer, and it's USB counterpart is extremely buggy. So I think the main concern that's holding me back is, Can I get a 64 bit machine with onboard parallel and serial ports? Can I make full use of these serial and parallel ports from within a virtual machine like VMware? if the answer is yes, then I may just may considering upgrading to w7 and running legacy software and hardware under a virtual machine. At 03:31 PM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Yes, that is true. Microsoft is generally pretty good of keeping their customer base in the know of what is changing and why, but either because of lack of funds or a desire simply not to upgrade a lot of blind gamers choose not to update knowing it years in advance. So I agree regardless of what the reason is for not updating they can't really be surprised when something like this happens. If they are surprised by all the changes in user interface then they must not be paying attention to changes in the computer tech field, or simply indifferent to what is going on around them until they have no choice but to recognize the changes are coming. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing to bear in mind, when considering how fast Microsoft have change things on people, is that it was not actually that surprising. For example VB, and other codes, Microsoft in fact told people years ago what it was going to do. Same with Windows XP, it's not as if Microsoft have come to us this year, and said we're going to take XP away from you next year, In fact, We knew that It was going to be disappearing in 2014, at least five years ago. LOL. So people have had plenty of time to look at changing, it's just that some people have stuck to XP, for compatibility reasons, or simply because they Don't realise the benefits of changing sooner. Or perhaps that they are I'm able to learn, hands-on, with an operating system. Some people do prefer to use an operating system some, before they use it permanently on their own machine. So I would say that this is not entirely Microsoft's fault, I would say that it's actually the user's fault, at least in part, for not taking note as to what Microsoft have been warning them for years, would be happening. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
l o l nothing at all. It was just the fact that we were talking about mS, Bill, and arrest with hackers. that it kind of jogged my memery that's all. bfn James -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:41 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi James, Excuse me here, but what in the blue blazes does that have to do with the topic at hand? Cheers! On 5/1/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Hello this is something that a a lot of people don't know about Mr.gates, But do you know that he has anarest rackerd. I Found it back like 6years ago. I don't know what it was for, but it was def his mug shot. it looked to me to be from the 70s. I'll never forget that smile and those big nerdy glasses. Even thoe I'll never be abel to see again that pitcher will all ways be burnt in to my brain. l o l bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
l o l funny you say that I was thinking the same thing when he said it l o l. bfn James -- From: Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 2:08 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows This sounds like a cool minigame. Shaking the gates: moneydrop Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows besides, the man has so much money, shaking him until lots of cash falls out you could use it to pay off everyone else :D. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
its more the interface changes happening all at once. suddenly its accept this new interface or die and I have issues with this. At 05:06 PM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Another thing to bear in mind, when considering how fast Microsoft have change things on people, is that it was not actually that surprising. For example VB, and other codes, Microsoft in fact told people years ago what it was going to do. Same with Windows XP, it's not as if Microsoft have come to us this year, and said we're going to take XP away from you next year, In fact, We knew that It was going to be disappearing in 2014, at least five years ago. LOL. So people have had plenty of time to look at changing, it's just that some people have stuck to XP, for compatibility reasons, or simply because they Don't realise the benefits of changing sooner. Or perhaps that they are I'm able to learn, hands-on, with an operating system. Some people do prefer to use an operating system some, before they use it permanently on their own machine. So I would say that this is not entirely Microsoft's fault, I would say that it's actually the user's fault, at least in part, for not taking note as to what Microsoft have been warning them for years, would be happening. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 9:00, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm I would aggree with ou tomas but really, my issue is that ms just banged changes on us. If it was slowly done then maybe it wouldn't matter. At 04:04 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, And to add to Dallas's post one reason Windows 7 and Windows 8 run as well as they do is because Microsoft did some long over do house cleaning when it comes to legacy code and libraries. They did their best to trim the fat per say out of the operating system, and some stuff clearly had to go because they have been around too long, were causing problems maintaining, and that is why, for example, all the Visual Basic 6 libraries were removed. Its legacy code from 15 years ago that was quite frankly no longer needed by the majority of Windows users. Our problem is that many of our developers chose to use VB 6 for all their games and applications and when Microsoft decided to drop support for it many developers got left holding the bag. Since many of them aren't professionals they don't know any other programming languages and will have to relearn everything from scratch in order to update where someone who was programming for a company in VB 6 10 years ago got paid training to migrate to VB .NET, C# .NET, or something else so were eased into the process by their employers a long time ago. Developers like myself who largely use C or C++ were better equipped for the changes just because I wasn't tied to a technology that was phased out of existence. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. The only thing to keep in mind here, is that although the blind community still like their 16-bit applications, 99.9% of the rest of the world, stopped using 16-bit, a long, long, long! Time ago. LOL. And that, is what Microsoft have to keep in mind, when creating an operating system. There is very little point, in keeping a huge amount of code, just to keep 16-bit alive, when very few people are using it. And of course, you can still run a version of the older operating system, in a VM where, or other virtual machine. For all intents and purposes, you could have a Windows 8 computer, and have virtual versions of Windows 7, windows XP, windows ME, or any other version you desire. Or even Linnux on top of that, so I don't see that these are generally reasons not to upgrade. Don't get me wrong here guys, windows XP was fantastic in its time. But although XP still has its uses, for the older applications, Windows 7 upgraded things in a way, that most people don't realise, until they use it for a while. Very much like Windows 8 did so, and I have used windows eight now, for nearly 2 years. So I have had the chance to play around with it, and see the overall usage of it over a period of time. I agree however, that windows eight is a bit of a change, if you're not ready for it. It is different enough, to confuse people quite a bit. That's probably the only thing, that Microsoft made a mistake with. They changed the UI a little too much, and it's now very difficult to learn to use it at first. Once you do use it for awhile though, and you're used to it, it's fantastic. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, yes windows eight is way, way, way! More stable then XP. As for accessibility, it is more so, probably not immensely so. However there are a lot of things that allow screen readers to access things now, that they could not before. New APIs, and other various techniques can now be used, that are simply not available in XP. And back to the stability, yes, it is very, very, very much more stable. I am running windows 8 pro, and I think I restarted my PC last about four weeks ago. And as a note, that is on my netbook. LOL. So you can imagine, what it would be like running on a proper full-sized notebook, or a tower computer. Even better of course. And windows eight is phenomenally faster on a netbook or any system really, then XP Vista or seven. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 2:08, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, also, I'm not too sure where the idea that Microsoft has not been helping accessibility in more modern versions of windows. In fact, Windows 7, and more especially windows 8, are far more accessible than XP ever was. And their knew protocols, and APIs, that provide better accessibility now, then before. So again, not sure where this one came from. And I agree,, having an old machine with the older OS, is often the better option. Obviously, if you're fine with what you have now, then stay with it. However, XP will be losing support as of this time next year. So I would suggest, that you start looking at moving ahead now, before you're forced to. Mainly, because of the security risk you will be dealing with, when XP no longer is being provided the security updates. And in this modern world, where you are connected so much, to the Internet, it would be pointless to remain in a less secure OS. I myself, am seriously considering going with a Mac for my next computer, and dual booting windows on it. Best of both worlds. The only problem with that, is the cost of a Mac out right. Anyway, on with the games. LOL. Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:39, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Dark, My responses are throughout. *snip* 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. *snip* First, there is a certain amount of irony that the first point on your list is essentially that you want to be able to cling to the past in order to move into the future. It is sort of like saying, thirty years ago, that you wouldn't use a CD player because it couldn't play your vinyl records. I use this analogy as someone who has a fair number of rare vinyl records which do not exist in modern formats. This doesn't keep me from having a CD player, or, these days, using iTunes. The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. I still have my working Apple 2GS computer as well, specifically for the nostalgia playing the old games I had for it. I've had it for, likely, longer than many of the participants of this list have been alive, and it still works, because I've
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Enes, That is quite possible. I've not done a lot of performance testing on that yet, but one thing I can say is because 64-bit processors can handle long doubles it will be far more accurate and precise about in game calculations involving angles and distances. Plus if a game developer throws in multithreading, duel core support, etc it will certainly run far better than a single threaded application. Plus since 64-bit ops like Windows 7 and Windows 8 can support up to 128 GB of ram there is more ram to work with when loading sounds and music. Although, I don't know of any audio game that needs that much ram. Lol. Cheers! On 4/30/13, enes enes.sari...@gmail.com wrote: hi, so will games which are compiled as 64 bit have a performance difference when ran on a 64 bit capable pc --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Stephen, That depends on which version of Windows 7 you get. If you get the standard 32-bit edition all or most of your old 16-bit Dos games should run. For example, right now I have Piledriver and Eamon Deluxe both running on my Compaq laptop running Windows 7 32 bit edition and those Dos based games run fine. I also have tried Scare and Dos Frotz on the same machine with no problems. However, older 16-bit games will not run on 64-bit versions of Windows 7 at all. I should know. I have a Toshiba here with a 64-bit version of Windows 7, soon to be Windows 8, and nothing written in the 80's and 90's will run on it. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: if I switch to windows 7, will I still be able to play old dos games like fallthru effectively? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Shaun, I am afraid I don't follow your logic here. I don't see what waiting for Jim Kitchen, GMA, Aprone, etc to upgrade to VB .NET or whatever has to do with you upgrading to say Windows 7. The fact of the matter is most of their games, the current ones written in VB 6, run fine on Windows 7 as is. So I don't see why you or anyone would have to wait. For example, I have three different computers currently running Windows 7 and a lot of those games run fine on them provided the VB 6 runtime libraries are installed and User Account Control is disabled. Right now I am on a laptop with Windows 7 and this computer has Lone Wolf, Tank Commander, Shades of Doom, Monkey Business, Sarah, Castaways, and just about all of Jim Kitchen's games installed on it. So I don't really get why you couldn't just use Windows 7 right now. Cheers! On 4/30/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Hi tom. Don't take this wrongly but I know several devs jim kitchen, aprone, I think gma maybe a few more that still use 6. If all devs dropped 6 and went to whatever I would have no issue with upgrading! Yes I realise some of them are upgrading but not all. You guys need to realise that the only reason we even bother with vb6 these days is that you guys write in it still. I wouldn't care if we went to vb dotnet. my win7 system has 3.51 and 4.5 right now! My xp system has all of them ofcause oh my win7 system does have 1.1 sp1 but thats it really. I think most of us are ready to switch. Would I pay for a dos emulator? If it came with a bunch of games, I would. probably no more than 10-15 bucks but I'd gladly buy a worth while emulator especially if I could use all the older stuff from yesteryear. I probably wouldn't pay more than 15-20 though for it. I am no programmer but dosbox being accessable sounds like a community project to me though I can't program. All we would need to do is have either some dll that could support 16 bit apps or simply be having a windows console app what could run 16 bit apps but onvert them to 32 bit like go32 cwsmi or dos4gw if we had a wrapper like that that would rock. Or even making the programs think they were running in 16 bits but actually run them at 64 bits. How long would it take ot write or get a good enough converter/wrapper and a console program. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
I see the business side of it as well, but am more concerned with the visually impaired consumers who game developers are marketing to. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Draconis i...@dracoent.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Charles, The biggest reason for this is the future. Look what has happened to BSC games. XP has far more years behind than ahead. We can't afford to make games that might, at best, have only 2 or 3 years of a life span. And, at present, we are in a weird transition time. We have roughly equal numbers of Win7 and Win XP users at the moment, with XP only a very slight advantage, judging by the visitor stats to the Draconis website. If we focus on XP, we're compromising the experience for users of new versions of Windows, in order to support users who can only realistically continue using XP for a very short time to come, comparatively speaking. The only logical thing to do is support as much as we can, with a focus on the newer systems, which eventually everyone will be using like it or not. Otherwise, we're pouring our effort into something that, in just a few years, will be useless. Draconis, at least, is trying to avoid the fate BSC titles now face. Microsoft could have made this transition smoother for developers and users alike, but didn't . We're all muddling through. On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Why shouldn't it be the other way around? Support what is used by the users rather than use what isn't supported and then try to support what is used? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, on top of all this, there is one simple thing to look at. Look at the main gaming industry. There are a lot of games out there that do not support anything less than Windows 7. So we aren't the first to see this happen. In fact, the audio games industry is being held back by the fact that we are being encouraged to keep supporting old OSs. So I think it's time that we look at the bigger picture of computing, and the capabilities that new OSs provide, and look at upgrading and what it would providers, rather than what it does not provide us! Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:50, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Again I aggree with you draconis. That was why I eventually decided to get a box with no more than 4gb. I was running with half that. I can now use and continue to use 32 bit software even though its not the best to do so. On the subject of dosbox frank has told me that he does not know much c at all. just basic right now. He does say one day he will learn c and c++ but till that day he is stuck. he has an idea what is going on. Basically the output of dosbox is not a physical output but an image of the output. and since our readers can not read images of anything what so ever, we are stuck not that anything works inside that box. Another way to do things is to use something that will run your 16 bit programs in 32 bit mode like the djgpp tads runtimes and things though not to many programs will run in 32 bit mode. either that or using the windows console we could emulate dos that way I guess. For games and simple things though xp is still better than 7, in navigation and other things. Even when I get this new laptop finally set up its likely that half the time I will be doing all serious work on my xp box and not my 7 box. When my xp box dies, I will indevour to get a desktop, that will run 32 bit software maybe xp or a vm of xp. I prefur native but oh well. Eventually I am planning to get a home server for backups and then ofcause it won't really matter. I'll just make a image of xp on the server, somehow login and boot whatever system I have active and play via the server. At 12:39 AM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, My responses are throughout. *snip* 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. *snip* First, there is a certain amount of irony that the first point on your list is essentially that you want to be able to cling to the past in order to move into the future. It is sort of like saying, thirty years ago, that you wouldn't use a CD player because it couldn't play your vinyl records. I use this analogy as someone who has a fair number of rare vinyl records which do not exist in modern formats. This doesn't keep me from having a CD player, or, these days, using iTunes. The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. I still have my working Apple 2GS computer as well, specifically for the nostalgia playing the old games I had for it. I've had it for, likely, longer than many of the participants of this list have been alive, and it still works, because I've taken care of it. So, while your option of an accessible DOS emulator would be the ideal, it is something that is relatively easily worked around. *snip* 2: audio games created using vb6 and direct x. Microsoft have, as we've been told dropped vb6 support and messed about with many of their direct x components. with the number of accessible games being so small, it is a real shame when they cannot be run on newer machines due to lack of support for the components. Again, since windows xp existed as a viable os for close to 10 years and is still largely in use today, we're talking about a long period of time and not a few games, indeed a post last year on audiogames.net was from a 64 bit windows user who complained that the upgrade actually lost! them more than it gained. If I could be certain the dependencies to run games like classic pipe were still available in some sense for post xp windows, I'd be less concerned about upgrading my os. While I know vb6 is likely to continue as a viable option provided dependencies are installed, which is why developers like Jim and
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, also, I'm not too sure where the idea that Microsoft has not been helping accessibility in more modern versions of windows. In fact, Windows 7, and more especially windows 8, are far more accessible than XP ever was. And their knew protocols, and APIs, that provide better accessibility now, then before. So again, not sure where this one came from. And I agree,, having an old machine with the older OS, is often the better option. Obviously, if you're fine with what you have now, then stay with it. However, XP will be losing support as of this time next year. So I would suggest, that you start looking at moving ahead now, before you're forced to. Mainly, because of the security risk you will be dealing with, when XP no longer is being provided the security updates. And in this modern world, where you are connected so much, to the Internet, it would be pointless to remain in a less secure OS. I myself, am seriously considering going with a Mac for my next computer, and dual booting windows on it. Best of both worlds. The only problem with that, is the cost of a Mac out right. Anyway, on with the games. LOL. Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:39, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Dark, My responses are throughout. *snip* 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. *snip* First, there is a certain amount of irony that the first point on your list is essentially that you want to be able to cling to the past in order to move into the future. It is sort of like saying, thirty years ago, that you wouldn't use a CD player because it couldn't play your vinyl records. I use this analogy as someone who has a fair number of rare vinyl records which do not exist in modern formats. This doesn't keep me from having a CD player, or, these days, using iTunes. The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. I still have my working Apple 2GS computer as well, specifically for the nostalgia playing the old games I had for it. I've had it for, likely, longer than many of the participants of this list have been alive, and it still works, because I've taken care of it. So, while your option of an accessible DOS emulator would be the ideal, it is something that is relatively easily worked around. *snip* 2: audio games created using vb6 and direct x. Microsoft have, as we've been told dropped vb6 support and messed about with many of their direct x components. with the number of accessible games being so small, it is a real shame when they cannot be run on newer machines due to lack of support for the components. Again, since windows xp existed as a viable os for close to 10 years and is still largely in use today, we're talking about a long period of time and not a few games, indeed a post last year on audiogames.net was from a 64 bit windows user who complained that the upgrade actually lost! them more than it gained. If I could be certain the dependencies to run games like classic pipe were still available in some sense for post
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hello I tought myself how to use JAWS on XP back in 2010, but back in June of 2012 I started taking a computer class that is not only for the blind, but is tought by the blind. they tought me how to use JAWS on windows 7. Now I was tought one and learn the other on my own, and I still perfer to use the one that I learned on my own over the one that I was tought. XP has a much smoother feel to it over windows 7, Like I said in a earlier post I bilt my computer from ground up. At first I had XP on it, but after I rebilt my old PC I put windows 7 on the newer one and xp on the older one. now on my wife's laptop she has windows 8. so I have used all 3 of mS oS's and I still like the feel to xp over the other 2, and don't even get me started on windows 8. I hate it. Yes it is screen reader friendly it's just not very smooth as far as I think. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
It would also mean, that you can create games with very intense audio soundscapes, and still get very good response times out of the machine for navigating around and other actions within the game. Where as on 32-bit, you probably can't do that very easily, not with very intense audio soundscapes. It would take too much memory. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 16:05, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Enes, That is quite possible. I've not done a lot of performance testing on that yet, but one thing I can say is because 64-bit processors can handle long doubles it will be far more accurate and precise about in game calculations involving angles and distances. Plus if a game developer throws in multithreading, duel core support, etc it will certainly run far better than a single threaded application. Plus since 64-bit ops like Windows 7 and Windows 8 can support up to 128 GB of ram there is more ram to work with when loading sounds and music. Although, I don't know of any audio game that needs that much ram. Lol. Cheers! On 4/30/13, enes enes.sari...@gmail.com wrote: hi, so will games which are compiled as 64 bit have a performance difference when ran on a 64 bit capable pc --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hello Yes that is the one thing I like about 7 is the search option. The only thing I don't like about it is that if you are looking for a file lets say it's name is sounds but there are 10 other sounds files in your computer it doesn't show u the path of that file so you don't know where that file is. It can be anywear so if you are looking for a spisific file with in a file you got to go through them all. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
OH Crudd!! I thought there was a catch. Perhaps it would be good to get a machine with lots of gigs of ram, then install a virtual xp machine upon it and do it that way. At 04:10 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hi Stephen, That depends on which version of Windows 7 you get. If you get the standard 32-bit edition all or most of your old 16-bit Dos games should run. For example, right now I have Piledriver and Eamon Deluxe both running on my Compaq laptop running Windows 7 32 bit edition and those Dos based games run fine. I also have tried Scare and Dos Frotz on the same machine with no problems. However, older 16-bit games will not run on 64-bit versions of Windows 7 at all. I should know. I have a Toshiba here with a 64-bit version of Windows 7, soon to be Windows 8, and nothing written in the 80's and 90's will run on it. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: if I switch to windows 7, will I still be able to play old dos games like fallthru effectively? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Yes, that would probably be a good way around it. You want a machine with at least 8 GB of RAM. So that you can dedicate either 2 or 4 gigs to a virtual machine. Yet another reason, I'm considering a Mac. I could have the Mac OS, if I have enough resaws is as well, I could then run windows eight or Windows 7 as a virtual machine. I'm still not too sure if I want to go with a mac yet, I'm still trying to decide, and checking out the possibilities. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 17:09, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: OH Crudd!! I thought there was a catch. Perhaps it would be good to get a machine with lots of gigs of ram, then install a virtual xp machine upon it and do it that way. At 04:10 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hi Stephen, That depends on which version of Windows 7 you get. If you get the standard 32-bit edition all or most of your old 16-bit Dos games should run. For example, right now I have Piledriver and Eamon Deluxe both running on my Compaq laptop running Windows 7 32 bit edition and those Dos based games run fine. I also have tried Scare and Dos Frotz on the same machine with no problems. However, older 16-bit games will not run on 64-bit versions of Windows 7 at all. I should know. I have a Toshiba here with a 64-bit version of Windows 7, soon to be Windows 8, and nothing written in the 80's and 90's will run on it. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: if I switch to windows 7, will I still be able to play old dos games like fallthru effectively? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Note. You could pin apps to the taskbar in Windows 7 as well. LOL. That is not a windows 8 thing. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 17:00, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Doesn't UIA automation work on windows 7 too? At 05:00 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hey Tom, Very quick question which isn't particularly game related but would be good to know. Is UI Automation backward compatible in any way? I'm asking from the point of view of someone who finds themselves writing to plugin developers quite often to see whether there's any interest in improving the accessibility of their plugins. Should I be directing them to documentation on UI Automation instead of exposing their GUI via MSAA? Cheers Scott On 5/1/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
I understand where you are coming from. Yes I got jaws training and earlier keynote gold dos training within keysoft. Everything else I have done I have done with trial error and reformat. True I looked at a few manuals but hardly mostly relying on shortcuts I found in programs. windows has been the same up to xp and 7 in some respects. The fact I can switch between systems at will is definately something I like At 06:44 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hello I tought myself how to use JAWS on XP back in 2010, but back in June of 2012 I started taking a computer class that is not only for the blind, but is tought by the blind. they tought me how to use JAWS on windows 7. Now I was tought one and learn the other on my own, and I still perfer to use the one that I learned on my own over the one that I was tought. XP has a much smoother feel to it over windows 7, Like I said in a earlier post I bilt my computer from ground up. At first I had XP on it, but after I rebilt my old PC I put windows 7 on the newer one and xp on the older one. now on my wife's laptop she has windows 8. so I have used all 3 of mS oS's and I still like the feel to xp over the other 2, and don't even get me started on windows 8. I hate it. Yes it is screen reader friendly it's just not very smooth as far as I think. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Thats a good point dallas I am playing tactical battle and on this xp unit I am having issue with big maps lagging loads. on this 64 bit unit even though its only running a 32 bit os for now thats not as bad. At 06:48 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: It would also mean, that you can create games with very intense audio soundscapes, and still get very good response times out of the machine for navigating around and other actions within the game. Where as on 32-bit, you probably can't do that very easily, not with very intense audio soundscapes. It would take too much memory. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 16:05, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Enes, That is quite possible. I've not done a lot of performance testing on that yet, but one thing I can say is because 64-bit processors can handle long doubles it will be far more accurate and precise about in game calculations involving angles and distances. Plus if a game developer throws in multithreading, duel core support, etc it will certainly run far better than a single threaded application. Plus since 64-bit ops like Windows 7 and Windows 8 can support up to 128 GB of ram there is more ram to work with when loading sounds and music. Although, I don't know of any audio game that needs that much ram. Lol. Cheers! On 4/30/13, enes enes.sari...@gmail.com wrote: hi, so will games which are compiled as 64 bit have a performance difference when ran on a 64 bit capable pc --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
well I am still storing files and folders on the drive root like I have always done. ofcause uac is disabled right now on my personal and things are as normal. At 06:57 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hello Yes that is the one thing I like about 7 is the search option. The only thing I don't like about it is that if you are looking for a file lets say it's name is sounds but there are 10 other sounds files in your computer it doesn't show u the path of that file so you don't know where that file is. It can be anywear so if you are looking for a spisific file with in a file you got to go through them all. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi because of all the stuff I've seen mS put there costumers throu the years and just getting tyred of them pushing there stuff on people I'm making the move to Linnex. It will take some time getting use to, but I started with windows at one point not knowing nothing and I can do the same with Linnex. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Yeah, but Bill Gates didn't invent windows. LOL. A lot of people seem to think so, but he actually didn't. If anyone, technically speaking, Apple invented what we know as now as Windows. On 01/05/2013, at 20:02, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the netbooks, are 64-bit capable. So there is no reason to hold back, and keep using 32-bit versions of windows. Of course, this was done for compatibility, with older programs. But what is being said now, is 99% of everything that is out there now, is either a 32-bit program, or a 64-bit program. There is little reason to stay in a 32-bit operating system from here on in. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 20:02, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi. Well I will have a look at the mack alternative, provided I can actually try one first, and particularly see virtual xp working for backwards compatibility, however on the security front, that to me is technical specks rather than practical good. If I can run windows xp with an antivirus and be fine, well it's secure enough. Again, I think this comes down to an instrumental view of computers, looking at what they do rather than their stats. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi valllient. i'm afraid that taking more than several hours with the windows 7 interface is precisely my point, particularly compared to sighted users who can instantly see and click. As I said, that people can! use windows 7's display I don't dispute, my issue is why should! people bother if the system doesn't actually have any bennifits over xp other than having a funkier interface. it's like this. If you walk a mile to the station, and your local counsel (or whatever local authorities are called in your part of the world), open a new road that you could use to get to the station at a more roundabout route of two miles, your not going to walk down the new road simply because it is new, since it's of no bennifit to you. The same may not be true of other systems, as I said, I will look into the mac business, but certainly with windows 7 this is my point and why I believe so many vi users are still using xp. Beware the grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Nope steven, which indeed was one of my points. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows if I switch to windows 7, will I still be able to play old dos games like fallthru effectively? At 11:02 AM 5/1/2013, you wrote: One of the biggest factors to consider is security. XP has been out on the market for 13 years. That means people have had 13 years to figure out all its little exploits. Windows 7 is more secure. It runs faster. It's more efficient from an end-user standpoint. There is a substantial difference between not liking something because it has been poorly designed and not liking something because you aren't comfortable using it. I would suspect this massive hate-on you're packing for Windows is due to the latter. I loved XP. I owned 6 computers over the course of 8 years, and that was the only system I would run. I hated the idea of switching to Windows 7. But now that I have, I wouldn't switch back if you paid me to. Windows 7 runs quicker, the search box is a dream, and I don't get fishing/virus programs that pop up on my computer just for visiting a Trojan site. Perhaps instead of railing against a system that will eventually replace what you're comfortable with now, you might reach out for advice/tips on how to use it better. You might surprise yourself. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:38 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi tom. touchscreens are the rub however with that one and why I don't want to completely dismiss windows eight, since I do indeed like the touchscreen interface on ios which has an icon setup much as you describe windows 8 having, which would I agree be a nightmare with arrows but is great with a touch screen and speech. Another part of this however, particularly where things like ribbons are concerned, is why should! a user bother learning a new interface, or to put it a little less bluntly, what extra bennifits are provided with windows 7 or 8 that xp doesn't have, ie, what more will it do for me that justify the time spend learning all this. in the case of the Ios screen this was clear. if I wanted to play games like king of dragon pass, as well as access phone functions like text messages, siri etc, I had to learn the interface, there was a clear bennifit to doing so. What however does windows 8 do that xp doesn't that justifies a persons time? This is more than just an idle question. For a visually impared user, naturally stuff is more difficult, that is part of life, this means however that a person needs to pick their battles a little more carefully and is my point as to windows 7. As you've already said, the practical functionality isn't that much over xp, all it provides is extra trouble and work to learn, so why should! people take the trouble for something that they can do anyway? Windows 8 might be another beast entirely since touchscreens have a different set of bennifits to keyboards, which is why I will likely wait to try windows 8 (and specifically windows 8 with a touch screen), before making up my mind entirely on the subject. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi tom. Those do sound useful features, which is exactly what I was arguing in favour of, and what windows 7 does not have (I like the sound of the ui business), but it was however just this sort of thing I was asking about when I started this topic in the first place since such advantages might! make it worth a persons' time to upgrade even if that does mean abandoning certain old games or having to run them in a virtual machine. Btw, does this ui automation thingy also work for emulators like dosbox? if so, then that would deffinately be a plus. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Though practically speaking I see that as one of the less good points in windows 7-8, since I have already created shortcut keys on desktop icons that do the same thing, eg, I press ctrl alt o for outlook express. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Note. You could pin apps to the taskbar in Windows 7 as well. LOL. That is not a windows 8 thing. Regards: Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 17:00, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, one thing Microsoft has done in Windows 8 that is superior to XP is they have a new API called UI Automation which acts as a bridge between the graphical controls on your screen and your screen reader. It is for this reason that all the virtual intercept drivers and off-screen models that Jaws, Window-Eyes, Supernova, etc were using before are no longer necessary. Your screen reader can now get the identity of any control and its status directly from the Windows API. Unlike MsSAA, which is now deprecated, UI Automation is now a core part of the Windows API so software developers don't have to do anything special to make their Windows 8 applications screen reader accessible. They just have to follow some basic standards and guidelines. UI Automation is in part why Narrator works so much better in Windows 8 than prior versions. All of Microsoft's flagship applications like Internet Explorer, windows Live Mail, Wordpad, Notepad, Microsoft Office 2010, use UI Automation so they are suppose to be screen reader friendly out of the box. A lot of the apps you can download for Windows 8 are fairly screen reader friendly because they use UI Automation. I found a few that needed some accessibility improvements, but by and large I think once UI Automation becomes more mainstream we will see access improve on Windows 8 and later versions in general. Microsoft SAPI has gotten a nice over hall as well. SAPI 5.5 comes with a bunch more voices and they are light years better compared to the SAPI voices for XP. Some of the new SAPI voices are almost as good as the Vocalizer/Realspeak voices that comes with Jaws and they are free. Plus they work with the SAPI 5 enabled games. While not necessarily an accessibility improvement per say I think the new voices is one reason to consider an upgrade. Another thing about Windows 8 is there are a lot of new Windows 8 hot keys to do various things such as Windows+f to find a file, Windows+c to go to the charm bar, Windows+i to open your settings, Windows+q to search your apps, Windows+tab to cycle throughopen apps, Windows+w to search your settings, etc. Basically, there are loads of hot keys available to get around and use Windows 8 without the mouse or a touchscreen. Something else that improves the access of Windows 8 is being able to pin commonly used applications to the task bar. Let's say you use Internet Explorer all the time. You can press the context menu key on it right arrow to Pin This Application to the Task Bar and it will always be on your Task Bar and you don't have to go hunting through the Start Screen to find it.Even better if it is the first item pinned to your Task Bar pressing Windows+1 will jump directly to Internet Explorer no matter where you are in Windows 8. Cool eh? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How is Windows 8 more accessible than XP? Also, is it more stable? How well do older games that we have purchased run using Windows *? One thing I will say is that Windows Narrator has undergone vast improvements over what was in XP. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
besides, the man has so much money, shaking him until lots of cash falls out you could use it to pay off everyone else :D. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
LOL, he probably loses more money per hour, by mistakingly dropping it, or other various ways, and we would make in several years. LOL. Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 22:53, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: besides, the man has so much money, shaking him until lots of cash falls out you could use it to pay off everyone else :D. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Yes this much is true, but I don't think that there would be anoff room in a truck for all those people. So it is much eazier to just kidnap the one that started it all. lol -- From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Why on earth would you go after Bill Gates, LOL. He no longer has very much to do with Microsoft. Most of everything has passed on to other people long ago. LOL Perhaps you should track down the people responsible for the changes you don't like, and chase them down and kidnap them. Hehehehehehehehe Regards --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
More secure, does not necessarily mean antivirus. Yes, having an anti-virus package in place can help, but in the end, viruses are actually the least of your worries. There are a lot of gaps in Windows XP, that have yet to be filled. Ways and means, that people can use, to get hold of information from your computer, or even take control of it. They have been trying to patch a lot of them, but it's so old, that this is very difficult. Where as newer versions of windows, have newer and better ways of dealing with this, and have a lot of those Loopholes blocked. I am not saying necessarily that having XP is completely a bad thing, what I am saying, is that there are far more benefits with security, speed, and stability, in Windows 7 and Windows 8 and upwards in the future, then XP. You say that it's mostly a UI change, this is, I am afraid to say, not true. Windows 7 is far more stable, and fast, then XP. And windows 8 is even more so. Dallas On 01/05/2013, at 22:34, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. Well I will have a look at the mack alternative, provided I can actually try one first, and particularly see virtual xp working for backwards compatibility, however on the security front, that to me is technical specks rather than practical good. If I can run windows xp with an antivirus and be fine, well it's secure enough. Again, I think this comes down to an instrumental view of computers, looking at what they do rather than their stats. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, Actually, there is an important difference here. When you press alt+control+o to launch Outlook Express it launches a new instance of the program. What makes pinning programs to the Task Bar special is if the application is running pressing the hot key for the application will immediately take you to that open window instead of launching a new instance of the program. So if you have Internet Explorer and Notepad open, and they are assigned to Windows+1 and Windows++2, you can jump back and forth between them by pressing those hot keys regardless of how many other windows are open or how many other programs are running on your Task Bar so its not the same old thing in a different form Its actually more useful as it serves a duel purpose.. Cheers! On 5/1/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Though practically speaking I see that as one of the less good points in windows 7-8, since I have already created shortcut keys on desktop icons that do the same thing, eg, I press ctrl alt o for outlook express. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, No, UI Automation wouldn't effect Dosbox one way or another because Dosbox doesn't use the Windows API which is precisely why it doesn't work in the first place. UI Automation is simply a bridge between Windows applications built using the standard Windows API and adaptive technologies such as screen readers. In order to make Dosbox work it has to be rewritten from the ground up using standard Windows GUI components which probably isn't going to happen any time soon. Cheers! On 5/1/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Those do sound useful features, which is exactly what I was arguing in favour of, and what windows 7 does not have (I like the sound of the ui business), but it was however just this sort of thing I was asking about when I started this topic in the first place since such advantages might! make it worth a persons' time to upgrade even if that does mean abandoning certain old games or having to run them in a virtual machine. Btw, does this ui automation thingy also work for emulators like dosbox? if so, then that would deffinately be a plus. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, if you can get to an Apple store you can try a Mac to your heart's content. :) Also, if you run a virtual machine, you do not need virus protection. YOu back up your VM and if something happens to it, you simply throw it away and bring up the backup. Since you're not running Windows on a partition, you're not exposing your boot sector. HTH Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 1, 2013, at 5:34 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. Well I will have a look at the mack alternative, provided I can actually try one first, and particularly see virtual xp working for backwards compatibility, however on the security front, that to me is technical specks rather than practical good. If I can run windows xp with an antivirus and be fine, well it's secure enough. Again, I think this comes down to an instrumental view of computers, looking at what they do rather than their stats. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, Since you insist on appraising Windows 7 totally on the basis of benefits here are some benefits to consider. They may be important to you or not but here are some things to consider all the same. 1. UI Automation. As mentioned earlier this is a new API available for Windows 7 and Windows 8 users that will revolutionize the way screen readers work with both the operating system and newer Windows applications. Since the technology is only available on newer Windows platforms those who choose to stick with XP will not be able to obtain and use newer applications written using this new API. 2. Improved security. Besides User Account Control there are a number of free tools to protect your Windows 7 system free of viruses and other malware including Microsoft Security Essentials, Windows Defender, as well as security fixes for many other vulnerabilities. 3. Internet Explorer 10. The web is changing and HTML 5 is becoming more standardized across the web and you may need a current web browser like Internet Explorer 10 to stay up to date and compatible with the Internet. Plus Internet Explorer 10 is faster and more secure than older versions. 4. Improved stability. One thing Microsoft did right with Windows 7 is they took the OS and removed a lot of legacy code that had been in the OS for several years, did some performance tuning, and as a result turned out a faster and more stable OS. To give you an example of this in action I have here a desktop PC with a 3 GHZ Intel Pentium IV processor, 2 GB of ram, etc. I put Windows XP on it with service pack 3 with all the latest updates and the system ran sort of slow. I erased XP and put Windows 7 on it and there was a dramatic improvement in performance. It booted twice as fast, shutdown twice as fast, and applications seemed to load faster. It crashed less and was arguably the more stable of the two. 5. Improved search capabilities. The new search capabilities of Windows 7 are nothing short of great. You can type in the name of a setting like UAC into the search box, press enter, and it will take you immediately to the dialog box to configure your User Account Control Settings. If you want to launch a program like Notepad quickly you can press the Windows key and type Notepad into the search field, press enter, and it will load Notepad for you. You can press the Windows key,type a web address into the search field, and it will open it in Internet Explorer. If you know the name of a file you can type the name of the file into the search field and have it automatically find and open said file. I us the search field so much I forget the Programs menu is there and half the time don't even bother looking in my Home directory for files because the search field does it all. 6. Pinning apps to the Task Bar. As previously mentioned on list what I love about this feature if I know the hot key for a specific application window I can just press Windows+1 through Windows+0 to jump to and from all the applications I have running rather than alt+tabbing through each and every window that happens to be open. This is one of those features that might not sound like much, but once you get use to having it you will greatly appreciate it. These are just a few benefits that a person might consider when upgrading to Windows 7. The basic thing I want to point out here is contrary to what some people have been saying Windows 7 is not just a new UI and that's it. A lot of time and work has gone into the OS and was a drastic improvement over Windows Vista and in many cases some things were improved over XP too. I realize you may have had some bad experiences, but I don't know if that was simply your unfamiliarity with the OS or just the fact you went into it expecting disappointment, but I for one really am happy with Windows 7. I really do believe the benefits out weigh the cons here. As for Valiant's assertion that it takes hours to learn the Windos 7 interface I think that comes down to a person's technical skills. I installed Windows 7 and had no troubles adapting to it myself. It only took me a couple of hours to get use to the OS and figure out where everything was. After that it was smooth sailing ever since. All the same I think everyone needs to have enough time to get acquainted with an OS before they make a decision about it. Cheers! On 5/1/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi valllient. i'm afraid that taking more than several hours with the windows 7 interface is precisely my point, particularly compared to sighted users who can instantly see and click. As I said, that people can! use windows 7's display I don't dispute, my issue is why should! people bother if the system doesn't actually have any bennifits over xp other than having a funkier interface. it's like this. If you walk a mile to the station, and your local counsel (or whatever local authorities are called in your part of the world), open a new road that you could use to get to the
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, Not only that, but if you are not putting your Windows VM on the Internet then your chances of getting a virus or some other nasty piece of malware is slim. If your VM is not exposed to high risk situations like Internet sites, email infections, etc then it will probably be pretty safe, and if it gets nuked by a virus as Cara said delete the VM and copy over a new one. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Hi Dark, if you can get to an Apple store you can try a Mac to your heart's content. :) Also, if you run a virtual machine, you do not need virus protection. YOu back up your VM and if something happens to it, you simply throw it away and bring up the backup. Since you're not running Windows on a partition, you're not exposing your boot sector. HTH Cara :) --- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the netbooks, are 64-bit capable. So there is no reason to hold back, and keep using 32-bit versions of windows. Of course, this was done for compatibility, with older programs. But what is being said now, is 99% of everything that is out there now, is either a 32-bit program, or a 64-bit program. There is little reason to stay in a 32-bit operating system from here on in. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi James, FYI it is called Linux not Linnex. Just thought you might want to know the proper spelling. Do you hav a distribution in mind? Cheers! On 5/1/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi because of all the stuff I've seen mS put there costumers throu the years and just getting tyred of them pushing there stuff on people I'm making the move to Linnex. It will take some time getting use to, but I started with windows at one point not knowing nothing and I can do the same with Linnex. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Scott, No. UI Automation is strictly speaking only available for Windows 7 and Windows 8.. I'm not sure if Microsoft has plans of making it available for Windows Vista, but I know they have no plans to make it available for XP. Given the fact XP is about to be dropped anyway I can't say I am too surprised. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Tom, Very quick question which isn't particularly game related but would be good to know. Is UI Automation backward compatible in any way? I'm asking from the point of view of someone who finds themselves writing to plugin developers quite often to see whether there's any interest in improving the accessibility of their plugins. Should I be directing them to documentation on UI Automation instead of exposing their GUI via MSAA? Cheers Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Stephen, Yes, it does. UI Automation was initially developed and released for Windows 7, but naturally is included on Windows 8 as a part of the new OS as well. On 5/1/13, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: Doesn't UIA automation work on windows 7 too? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dallas, Yes, I know that. The issue in question was comparing Windows 8 to Windows XP not Windows 8 to Windows 7. So from that perspective pinning apps to the Task Bar is certainly a Windows 8 thing from the point of view of a XP user. :D Cheers! On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Note. You could pin apps to the taskbar in Windows 7 as well. LOL. That is not a windows 8 thing. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Tom, Thanks, good to know. So then, what would happen for a screen reader user who was attempting to use a program under XP if a developer had gone with UI Automation as their accessibility API? Do the screen readers have some way of bridging the gap between UI Automation and MSAA, or would that program just be seen as being inaccessible? Doesn't affect me directly seeing as I'm already running 7, but thought it was worth asking. I haven't yet heard of any programs that are accessible in 7 and 8 but totally unusable in XP, so just trying to get my head around the implications. Cheers Scott On 5/1/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Scott, No. UI Automation is strictly speaking only available for Windows 7 and Windows 8.. I'm not sure if Microsoft has plans of making it available for Windows Vista, but I know they have no plans to make it available for XP. Given the fact XP is about to be dropped anyway I can't say I am too surprised. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Yes I do know that little tidbit, but I was just joking around l o l. I was just trying to add a little huommer to the topic. I think that some people are missunderstanding what Dark was trying to say. He's not pointing the finger at the programers. Just at MS for not thinking things out like all ways. They did the same thing back with windows 2000 that had so many bugs it wasn't funny. then what they do they fix the problems and no time later they releassed the same produck, but just by a different name. Hello windows mE. then they did the same thing with vista and 7. they are the same thing just with all the bugs worked out, and now they have win 8. witch to me just is not screen reader friendlyI'm running jaws 14 that was made for win 8 and it is still a pain in the but. I think what Dark was trying to do here was bring us togetheras a community and try to solv this problem as far as not being abel to run 16 bit games anymore. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
L O L --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hello this is something that a a lot of people don't know about Mr.gates, But do you know that he has anarest rackerd. I Found it back like 6years ago. I don't know what it was for, but it was def his mug shot. it looked to me to be from the 70s. I'll never forget that smile and those big nerdy glasses. Even thoe I'll never be abel to see again that pitcher will all ways be burnt in to my brain. l o l bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
I'm sorry, but I don't see how just because jaws can't access windows eight correctly, that it means windows eight is in accessible. Due to the fact that NVDA works with it perfectly well, and yes, I have tested jaws 14 myself. And I agree, JAWS 14 is hopeless in windows eight. But I don't think that that is Windows as a problem, I believe that that is Freedom scientific, saying that they have adapted the program for windows eight, when in actual fact, when I have tested it, it has very little access to the new functions of windows eight at all. So I would hazard a guess, that if you tried something like NVDA, I would think that you would find windows eight as accessible, if not more so, then other versions. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 4:45, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Yes I do know that little tidbit, but I was just joking around l o l. I was just trying to add a little huommer to the topic. I think that some people are missunderstanding what Dark was trying to say. He's not pointing the finger at the programers. Just at MS for not thinking things out like all ways. They did the same thing back with windows 2000 that had so many bugs it wasn't funny. then what they do they fix the problems and no time later they releassed the same produck, but just by a different name. Hello windows mE. then they did the same thing with vista and 7. they are the same thing just with all the bugs worked out, and now they have win 8. witch to me just is not screen reader friendlyI'm running jaws 14 that was made for win 8 and it is still a pain in the but. I think what Dark was trying to do here was bring us togetheras a community and try to solv this problem as far as not being abel to run 16 bit games anymore. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Exactly, and although I have yet to use a Mac to any great extent, I can see the benefits of how their Scheme works. Upgrade slowly, get the users used to something slowly, so that it's not a jarring experience. And of course means, that they don't tend to bring in new features very quickly, but it means that the system is continually evolving, and not staying static for 10 years. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 2:04, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the netbooks, are 64-bit capable. So there is no reason to hold back, and keep using 32-bit versions of windows. Of course, this was done for compatibility, with older programs. But what is being said now, is 99% of everything that is out there now, is either a 32-bit program, or a 64-bit program. There is little reason to stay in a 32-bit operating system from here on in. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
well thats a good point for vms keeping your host os secure is fine. At 03:16 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, if you can get to an Apple store you can try a Mac to your heart's content. :) Also, if you run a virtual machine, you do not need virus protection. YOu back up your VM and if something happens to it, you simply throw it away and bring up the backup. Since you're not running Windows on a partition, you're not exposing your boot sector. HTH Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 1, 2013, at 5:34 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. Well I will have a look at the mack alternative, provided I can actually try one first, and particularly see virtual xp working for backwards compatibility, however on the security front, that to me is technical specks rather than practical good. If I can run windows xp with an antivirus and be fine, well it's secure enough. Again, I think this comes down to an instrumental view of computers, looking at what they do rather than their stats. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
I aggree with you on that tom. I am still working on xp and 7 on 2 laptops. I have not done to much gaming on the 7 box though as I have spent most of my time sorting out files. At 03:40 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, Since you insist on appraising Windows 7 totally on the basis of benefits here are some benefits to consider. They may be important to you or not but here are some things to consider all the same. 1. UI Automation. As mentioned earlier this is a new API available for Windows 7 and Windows 8 users that will revolutionize the way screen readers work with both the operating system and newer Windows applications. Since the technology is only available on newer Windows platforms those who choose to stick with XP will not be able to obtain and use newer applications written using this new API. 2. Improved security. Besides User Account Control there are a number of free tools to protect your Windows 7 system free of viruses and other malware including Microsoft Security Essentials, Windows Defender, as well as security fixes for many other vulnerabilities. 3. Internet Explorer 10. The web is changing and HTML 5 is becoming more standardized across the web and you may need a current web browser like Internet Explorer 10 to stay up to date and compatible with the Internet. Plus Internet Explorer 10 is faster and more secure than older versions. 4. Improved stability. One thing Microsoft did right with Windows 7 is they took the OS and removed a lot of legacy code that had been in the OS for several years, did some performance tuning, and as a result turned out a faster and more stable OS. To give you an example of this in action I have here a desktop PC with a 3 GHZ Intel Pentium IV processor, 2 GB of ram, etc. I put Windows XP on it with service pack 3 with all the latest updates and the system ran sort of slow. I erased XP and put Windows 7 on it and there was a dramatic improvement in performance. It booted twice as fast, shutdown twice as fast, and applications seemed to load faster. It crashed less and was arguably the more stable of the two. 5. Improved search capabilities. The new search capabilities of Windows 7 are nothing short of great. You can type in the name of a setting like UAC into the search box, press enter, and it will take you immediately to the dialog box to configure your User Account Control Settings. If you want to launch a program like Notepad quickly you can press the Windows key and type Notepad into the search field, press enter, and it will load Notepad for you. You can press the Windows key,type a web address into the search field, and it will open it in Internet Explorer. If you know the name of a file you can type the name of the file into the search field and have it automatically find and open said file. I us the search field so much I forget the Programs menu is there and half the time don't even bother looking in my Home directory for files because the search field does it all. 6. Pinning apps to the Task Bar. As previously mentioned on list what I love about this feature if I know the hot key for a specific application window I can just press Windows+1 through Windows+0 to jump to and from all the applications I have running rather than alt+tabbing through each and every window that happens to be open. This is one of those features that might not sound like much, but once you get use to having it you will greatly appreciate it. These are just a few benefits that a person might consider when upgrading to Windows 7. The basic thing I want to point out here is contrary to what some people have been saying Windows 7 is not just a new UI and that's it. A lot of time and work has gone into the OS and was a drastic improvement over Windows Vista and in many cases some things were improved over XP too. I realize you may have had some bad experiences, but I don't know if that was simply your unfamiliarity with the OS or just the fact you went into it expecting disappointment, but I for one really am happy with Windows 7. I really do believe the benefits out weigh the cons here. As for Valiant's assertion that it takes hours to learn the Windos 7 interface I think that comes down to a person's technical skills. I installed Windows 7 and had no troubles adapting to it myself. It only took me a couple of hours to get use to the OS and figure out where everything was. After that it was smooth sailing ever since. All the same I think everyone needs to have enough time to get acquainted with an OS before they make a decision about it. Cheers! On 5/1/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi valllient. i'm afraid that taking more than several hours with the windows 7 interface is precisely my point, particularly compared to sighted users who can instantly see and click. As I said, that people can! use windows 7's display I don't dispute, my issue is why should! people bother if the system doesn't actually have any bennifits over xp other than having a
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hmmm I would aggree with ou tomas but really, my issue is that ms just banged changes on us. If it was slowly done then maybe it wouldn't matter. At 04:04 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the netbooks, are 64-bit capable. So there is no reason to hold back, and keep using 32-bit versions of windows. Of course, this was done for compatibility, with older programs. But what is being said now, is 99% of everything that is out there now, is either a 32-bit program, or a 64-bit program. There is little reason to stay in a 32-bit operating system from here on in. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, Agreed. For those users looking to upgrade to Windows 8 I found the Jaws 14 demo to be unsatisfactory compared to free solutions like NVDA which has continued to offer superior access to Windows 8 throughout the betas and now the stable releases. I don't think because Jaws is a poor product that should reflect upon Windows 8 because the access issues said people are experiences is their screen reader not the OS. Window-Eyes 8, for example, has far better support for Windows 8 than Jaws 14, and if people would compare screen readers more often they would see things like that. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry, but I don't see how just because jaws can't access windows eight correctly, that it means windows eight is in accessible. Due to the fact that NVDA works with it perfectly well, and yes, I have tested jaws 14 myself. And I agree, JAWS 14 is hopeless in windows eight. But I don't think that that is Windows as a problem, I believe that that is Freedom scientific, saying that they have adapted the program for windows eight, when in actual fact, when I have tested it, it has very little access to the new functions of windows eight at all. So I would hazard a guess, that if you tried something like NVDA, I would think that you would find windows eight as accessible, if not more so, then other versions. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi James, Excuse me here, but what in the blue blazes does that have to do with the topic at hand? Cheers! On 5/1/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Hello this is something that a a lot of people don't know about Mr.gates, But do you know that he has anarest rackerd. I Found it back like 6years ago. I don't know what it was for, but it was def his mug shot. it looked to me to be from the 70s. I'll never forget that smile and those big nerdy glasses. Even thoe I'll never be abel to see again that pitcher will all ways be burnt in to my brain. l o l bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Scott, Well, I just did some research on your question and it turns out that service pack 3 for XP contains UI Automation so in answer to your question they should receive the same or equal access as a Windows 8 user when UI Automation is used assuming the screen reader has UI Automation support. That's really the rub here. A lot of people are still running Jaws 7 or something like that which doesn't support UI Automation so even though an XP user can install service pack 3 and get UI Automation support on the OS side of things if their screen reader is out of date it won't matter if UI Automation is available or not as the screen reader won't use it. However, that does sort of bring us back to your original question. What happens if a developer uses UI Automation and either the OS or screen reader doesn't support it? The answer is that Jaws, Window-Eyes, etc will fall back on other means such as video intercept drivers etc to try and determine the WPF controls so the application should still be accessible. Its just that the screen reader won't be able to have as accurate firsthand information from the application itself on what the control is. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom, Thanks, good to know. So then, what would happen for a screen reader user who was attempting to use a program under XP if a developer had gone with UI Automation as their accessibility API? Do the screen readers have some way of bridging the gap between UI Automation and MSAA, or would that program just be seen as being inaccessible? Doesn't affect me directly seeing as I'm already running 7, but thought it was worth asking. I haven't yet heard of any programs that are accessible in 7 and 8 but totally unusable in XP, so just trying to get my head around the implications. Cheers Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation man, helped a lot. Scott On 5/2/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Scott, Well, I just did some research on your question and it turns out that service pack 3 for XP contains UI Automation so in answer to your question they should receive the same or equal access as a Windows 8 user when UI Automation is used assuming the screen reader has UI Automation support. That's really the rub here. A lot of people are still running Jaws 7 or something like that which doesn't support UI Automation so even though an XP user can install service pack 3 and get UI Automation support on the OS side of things if their screen reader is out of date it won't matter if UI Automation is available or not as the screen reader won't use it. However, that does sort of bring us back to your original question. What happens if a developer uses UI Automation and either the OS or screen reader doesn't support it? The answer is that Jaws, Window-Eyes, etc will fall back on other means such as video intercept drivers etc to try and determine the WPF controls so the application should still be accessible. Its just that the screen reader won't be able to have as accurate firsthand information from the application itself on what the control is. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom, Thanks, good to know. So then, what would happen for a screen reader user who was attempting to use a program under XP if a developer had gone with UI Automation as their accessibility API? Do the screen readers have some way of bridging the gap between UI Automation and MSAA, or would that program just be seen as being inaccessible? Doesn't affect me directly seeing as I'm already running 7, but thought it was worth asking. I haven't yet heard of any programs that are accessible in 7 and 8 but totally unusable in XP, so just trying to get my head around the implications. Cheers Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Does he mean an arrest record? if so how not relevant. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi James, Excuse me here, but what in the blue blazes does that have to do with the topic at hand? Cheers! On 5/1/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: Hello this is something that a a lot of people don't know about Mr.gates, But do you know that he has anarest rackerd. I Found it back like 6years ago. I don't know what it was for, but it was def his mug shot. it looked to me to be from the 70s. I'll never forget that smile and those big nerdy glasses. Even thoe I'll never be abel to see again that pitcher will all ways be burnt in to my brain. l o l bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Another thing to bear in mind, when considering how fast Microsoft have change things on people, is that it was not actually that surprising. For example VB, and other codes, Microsoft in fact told people years ago what it was going to do. Same with Windows XP, it's not as if Microsoft have come to us this year, and said we're going to take XP away from you next year, In fact, We knew that It was going to be disappearing in 2014, at least five years ago. LOL. So people have had plenty of time to look at changing, it's just that some people have stuck to XP, for compatibility reasons, or simply because they Don't realise the benefits of changing sooner. Or perhaps that they are I'm able to learn, hands-on, with an operating system. Some people do prefer to use an operating system some, before they use it permanently on their own machine. So I would say that this is not entirely Microsoft's fault, I would say that it's actually the user's fault, at least in part, for not taking note as to what Microsoft have been warning them for years, would be happening. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 9:00, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm I would aggree with ou tomas but really, my issue is that ms just banged changes on us. If it was slowly done then maybe it wouldn't matter. At 04:04 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been changing continually, over a long period of time, making small changes here and there, so as not to make it such a jarring experience. Microsoft has made the mistake, of waiting too long before making a change to windows in a major way. Whereas Apple has done it slowly over about 10 years. It's kind of amusing, to hear people talking about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, and what software can run on one and what can't run on the other. Because, quite simply, Apple made the choice to go permanently 64-bit. Because of this, they don't tend to have this kind of problem. About the only thing that doesn't run now, Would be older apps designed for the old processes. So Apple have in fact made the jump to 64-bit completely, whereas windows is still again, a kind of half way measure, where you can do both. It would be so much simpler, if Microsoft would do the same. Make everything 64-bit, if you want support for anything else, you will have to use emulators, or an old computer. And in fact, from all the information we have got now, the next major version of windows, is going to do Exactly that. There will be no 32-bit version. And it's about time. LOL. All of our computers that we have bought for the last six years or more, minus the netbooks, are 64-bit capable. So there is no reason to hold back, and keep using 32-bit versions of windows. Of course, this was done for compatibility, with older programs.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dallas, Yes, that is true. Microsoft is generally pretty good of keeping their customer base in the know of what is changing and why, but either because of lack of funds or a desire simply not to upgrade a lot of blind gamers choose not to update knowing it years in advance. So I agree regardless of what the reason is for not updating they can't really be surprised when something like this happens. If they are surprised by all the changes in user interface then they must not be paying attention to changes in the computer tech field, or simply indifferent to what is going on around them until they have no choice but to recognize the changes are coming. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing to bear in mind, when considering how fast Microsoft have change things on people, is that it was not actually that surprising. For example VB, and other codes, Microsoft in fact told people years ago what it was going to do. Same with Windows XP, it's not as if Microsoft have come to us this year, and said we're going to take XP away from you next year, In fact, We knew that It was going to be disappearing in 2014, at least five years ago. LOL. So people have had plenty of time to look at changing, it's just that some people have stuck to XP, for compatibility reasons, or simply because they Don't realise the benefits of changing sooner. Or perhaps that they are I'm able to learn, hands-on, with an operating system. Some people do prefer to use an operating system some, before they use it permanently on their own machine. So I would say that this is not entirely Microsoft's fault, I would say that it's actually the user's fault, at least in part, for not taking note as to what Microsoft have been warning them for years, would be happening. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
I don't think it's the changes to the interface that is the sole concern. It's more like not being able to play 16 bit games on a 64 bit system, the dropping of old legacy hardware from new pcs such as serial ports and parallel ports, I still use my old artic transport to play old dos games that don't read well with jaws and NVDA, and some hardware I use requires the use of an lpt port and no, it's not a printer, and it's USB counterpart is extremely buggy. So I think the main concern that's holding me back is, Can I get a 64 bit machine with onboard parallel and serial ports? Can I make full use of these serial and parallel ports from within a virtual machine like VMware? if the answer is yes, then I may just may considering upgrading to w7 and running legacy software and hardware under a virtual machine. At 03:31 PM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Yes, that is true. Microsoft is generally pretty good of keeping their customer base in the know of what is changing and why, but either because of lack of funds or a desire simply not to upgrade a lot of blind gamers choose not to update knowing it years in advance. So I agree regardless of what the reason is for not updating they can't really be surprised when something like this happens. If they are surprised by all the changes in user interface then they must not be paying attention to changes in the computer tech field, or simply indifferent to what is going on around them until they have no choice but to recognize the changes are coming. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing to bear in mind, when considering how fast Microsoft have change things on people, is that it was not actually that surprising. For example VB, and other codes, Microsoft in fact told people years ago what it was going to do. Same with Windows XP, it's not as if Microsoft have come to us this year, and said we're going to take XP away from you next year, In fact, We knew that It was going to be disappearing in 2014, at least five years ago. LOL. So people have had plenty of time to look at changing, it's just that some people have stuck to XP, for compatibility reasons, or simply because they Don't realise the benefits of changing sooner. Or perhaps that they are I'm able to learn, hands-on, with an operating system. Some people do prefer to use an operating system some, before they use it permanently on their own machine. So I would say that this is not entirely Microsoft's fault, I would say that it's actually the user's fault, at least in part, for not taking note as to what Microsoft have been warning them for years, would be happening. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, My responses are throughout. *snip* 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. *snip* First, there is a certain amount of irony that the first point on your list is essentially that you want to be able to cling to the past in order to move into the future. It is sort of like saying, thirty years ago, that you wouldn't use a CD player because it couldn't play your vinyl records. I use this analogy as someone who has a fair number of rare vinyl records which do not exist in modern formats. This doesn't keep me from having a CD player, or, these days, using iTunes. The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. I still have my working Apple 2GS computer as well, specifically for the nostalgia playing the old games I had for it. I've had it for, likely, longer than many of the participants of this list have been alive, and it still works, because I've taken care of it. So, while your option of an accessible DOS emulator would be the ideal, it is something that is relatively easily worked around. *snip* 2: audio games created using vb6 and direct x. Microsoft have, as we've been told dropped vb6 support and messed about with many of their direct x components. with the number of accessible games being so small, it is a real shame when they cannot be run on newer machines due to lack of support for the components. Again, since windows xp existed as a viable os for close to 10 years and is still largely in use today, we're talking about a long period of time and not a few games, indeed a post last year on audiogames.net was from a 64 bit windows user who complained that the upgrade actually lost! them more than it gained. If I could be certain the dependencies to run games like classic pipe were still available in some sense for post xp windows, I'd be less concerned about upgrading my os. While I know vb6 is likely to continue as a viable option provided dependencies are installed, which is why developers like Jim and Aprone can still write games in it, I'm less certain regarding other components, especially with what I've heard of other games not working under later windows versions. *snip* This point is really just the same as your first point, with the same solutions available, be that virtual machines, emulation, or hanging on and maintaining an older machine for the time being. And, as far as Draconis goes, we are working to move our games forward to modern operating systems. *snip* 3: interface. There is no denying that microsoft have by their nature created an interface which is more graphical, less logical and less customizable, a trend continued in windows 8. It is not for instance possible to have listed menues or coherent folder structures, not to mention the los of simpler, but more user friendly things like outlook express (a program I'd really! miss). This is frankly a pain in the arse, but is something I, and likely others would be willing to suffer if it were for an over all bennifit, however that bennifit has not materialized. *snip* While I disagree that more graphical inherently means less accessible…I think that age-old myth has been dispelled for years…there's no denying that Microsoft has made a mess of things for everyone, not just visually impaired users. This is why I am a Mac user. It is less frustration, less expensive, and a far more productive and pleasant computing experience than what Microsoft currently offers. And, with the ability to install and boot
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark and all. on the topic of upgrading to windows 7 from xp I agree with you in all that you have said hear. I use xp for my maine pc use and have a laptop running windows 7 for a backup but I hardley ever use that unless say I am traviling. I agree with all your points that xp is mutch simplier to use then say windows 7 is since I like the idea of the start menu witch they took away in 7 and i of korce love outlook express. so in short I will use this xp pc for as long as possible. from Mich. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 7:54 PM Subject: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows There have been lots of messages from certain developers commenting that people with windows do not have the latest versions, that they can't support this that and the other, that such and such a component is old, etc etc. ? Okay, I offer this as a direct challenge to developers. There are three reasons I principley stick with xp: 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. ? Of course virtual xp is always an option, but neither a simple nor straight forward one, nor one which works successfully for many people. ? 2: audio games created using vb6 and direct x. Microsoft have, as we've been told dropped vb6 support and messed about with many of their direct x components. with the number of accessible games being so small, it is a real shame when they cannot be run on newer machines due to lack of support for the components. Again, since windows xp existed as a viable os for close to 10 years and is still largely in use today, we're talking about a long period of time and not a few games, indeed a post last year on audiogames.net was from a 64 bit windows user who complained that the upgrade actually lost! them more than it gained. If I could be certain the dependencies to run games like classic pipe were still available in some sense for post xp windows, I'd be less concerned about upgrading my os. ? While I know vb6 is likely to continue as a viable option provided dependencies are installed, which is why developers like Jim and Aprone can still write games in it, I'm less certain regarding other components, especially with what I've heard of other games not working under later windows versions. ? 3: interface. ? There is no denying that microsoft have by their nature created an interface which is more graphical, less logical and less customizable, a trend continued in windows 8. It is not for instance possible to have listed menues or coherent folder structures, not to mention the los of simpler, but more user friendly things like outlook express (a program I'd really! miss). This is frankly a pain in the arse, but is something I, and likely others would be willing to suffer if it were for an over all bennifit, however that bennifit has not materialized. In general, for myself at least, the things I use a computer for would be far more harmed than bennifited from upgrading, since I'd have less access to software and games, a harder to use interface, and nothing I've seen related to the other things I use a computer for, music, dvds, writing, using e mail that would particularly be of help, even in terms of net brousing, this business of mp3 playback is the first thing I've heard of that ie9 does which would actually be of help to me. All that aside, if the compatibility issues were solved, if there was a screen reader friendly dosbox and stored components for runing older games I think people might be a little more willing to upgrade, --- I know I would, especially if as draconis has indicated more games that do not support xp are likely in the future. ? Yes, there is an arguement that if Draconis or other developers create games as good as the older ones, running the older ones becomes superfluous, but while this may be true
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi trouble. As I said, I am not aversed to upgrading when it is of bennifit to me, and indeed this is I think the reason most people do not do so. If something ain't broke, why fix it. i also question your progress forward analogy for this reason, since something with a less friendly interface, with inconvenient programs that won't run much older software isn't forwarrd, it's simply different. My point was that instead of everyone being forced to upgrade and things being lost, or developers saying well tough luck since we're microsoft has forced us to upgrae we look at the reasons why! people do not, since contrary to your message, choice to continue using xp is not an irrational one or simply a question of liking one flavour of icecream over another. As to the xp box, well it is the same hear, however I do know where I can get a reconditioned machine of good quality. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't repeatedly warn VB developers what would happen years in advance. So let's begin by placing the blame where blame is due. Regarding the user interface it is definitely different in Windows 7 and in Windows 8 but there are workarounds for what you want. The Classic Shell application restores many of the Windows XP U.I. elements you are talking about including the classic Start Menu etc. So saying it is not possible to have listed menus and coherent folder structures, is absolutely false. If you were to install the Classic Shell add-on for Windows you would restore a semblance of the Windows XP look and feel to modern versions of Windows. Finally, while it is certainly your right to choose to upgrade or not upgrade let me say that it puts us game developers in an untenable situation. What I mean by that is sometimes it is not possible to support both older versions of Windows and newer versions of Windows at the same time. The way technology changes a developer has to make decisions weather to create games for a legacy operating system like XP or stick with whatever is current. There are technical considerations that you, the end user, do not have to make but we do. For example, consider virtual 3d audio. While DirectSound has virtual 3d support the fact of the matter is it isn't very good and it doesn't work properly on Windows 7 and Windows 8. The solution or fix for the problem is to switch to Microsoft's new DirectX audio API XAudio2 which works fine on Windows 7 and Windows 8. However, next year Microsoft will no longer be providing updates for Windows XP, including XAudio2 for XP, so as a game developer my options are limited. Either I build against an older version of XAudio2 which may be buggy to maintain XP support or I tell XP users they are simply out of luck. Either way I am between a rock and a hard place because next year it won't be possible to build against new versions of DirectX and support Windows XP at the same time. There is a similar situation going on with the .NET Framework. I believe Windows XP will support up to .NET 4 but no later. Since XP is about to be officially dropped that means the new applications written in Visual Studio 2012 using .NET 5 won't run on Windows XP, but are Windows 8 ready. Once again the developer is force to sacrifice newer APIs, libraries and tools to support XP or
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, After reading your message, I'd like to know how much actual experience you have with windows seven. The only part of your message I can't completely contradict is the part about dos applications, and even those should run under a 32-bit version of the OS, if you really want them to. All vb6 games run under windows seven; I have yet to find an audiogame I couldn't run on my machine. As regards interface, it's simply a matter of getting used to a few things. There are some absolutely massive upgrades in windows seven, the search box especially. I've found that only once a month or so will I even need to open up my programs folder; all I need to do is type in a small portion of the file name in the search box and I'm ready to go. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, Not only that, but the problem for people wanting to maintain XP after 2014 is hardware support. After next year most hardware manufacturers will no longer be providing drivers for sound cards, video cards, network cards, etc for XP. So if someone needs to replace a hardware component for any reason someone running XP will have to go to Ebay or a used computer parts store to get XP compatible hardware just because all hardware and software support for XP ends next year weather people like it or not. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Tom and Trouble, All the more reason to have a dedicated, essentially frozen, machine for playing old games, etc. The less wear-and-tear you can put on it, using it just for the specific tasks it needs to be, the longer it is likely to last. Keeping it off the Internet most of the time would also be a good idea. On Apr 30, 2013, at 9:03 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Not only that, but the problem for people wanting to maintain XP after 2014 is hardware support. After next year most hardware manufacturers will no longer be providing drivers for sound cards, video cards, network cards, etc for XP. So if someone needs to replace a hardware component for any reason someone running XP will have to go to Ebay or a used computer parts store to get XP compatible hardware just because all hardware and software support for XP ends next year weather people like it or not. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, also, I'm not too sure where the idea that Microsoft has not been helping accessibility in more modern versions of windows. In fact, Windows 7, and more especially windows 8, are far more accessible than XP ever was. And their knew protocols, and APIs, that provide better accessibility now, then before. So again, not sure where this one came from. And I agree,, having an old machine with the older OS, is often the better option. Obviously, if you're fine with what you have now, then stay with it. However, XP will be losing support as of this time next year. So I would suggest, that you start looking at moving ahead now, before you're forced to. Mainly, because of the security risk you will be dealing with, when XP no longer is being provided the security updates. And in this modern world, where you are connected so much, to the Internet, it would be pointless to remain in a less secure OS. I myself, am seriously considering going with a Mac for my next computer, and dual booting windows on it. Best of both worlds. The only problem with that, is the cost of a Mac out right. Anyway, on with the games. LOL. Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:39, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Dark, My responses are throughout. *snip* 1: compatibility with dos applications. As a huge fan of text rpgs, I play not a few games with dos such as fallthru, and age of legends, yet thanks to microsoft that would not be possible on a 64 bit machine. For sighted users this isn't a problem since they can use the dosbox emulator, and indeed newer dos, or dos style applications are still being developed using it, noteably Eamon deluxe (and since there are over 270 Eamon games that is quite a lot just on it's own). If a developer created a screen reader friendly version of dosbox or a similar way to run 16 bit console window applications, it would mean that older games, which have been playable for the past 30 years would continue to be so for the blind community. This is something I know the developer of Eamon deluxe has been looking into and discussing with the dosbox dev team, but perhaps some assistance from a programmer with more knolidge of screen readers' interaction with windows would be of help, that is unless someone cannot create say a small application that outputs dos text to sapi or similar. *snip* First, there is a certain amount of irony that the first point on your list is essentially that you want to be able to cling to the past in order to move into the future. It is sort of like saying, thirty years ago, that you wouldn't use a CD player because it couldn't play your vinyl records. I use this analogy as someone who has a fair number of rare vinyl records which do not exist in modern formats. This doesn't keep me from having a CD player, or, these days, using iTunes. The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. I still have my working Apple 2GS computer as well, specifically for the nostalgia playing the old games I had for it. I've had it for, likely, longer than many of the participants of this list have been alive, and it still works, because I've taken care of it. So, while your option of an accessible DOS emulator would be the ideal, it is something that is relatively easily worked around. *snip* 2: audio games created using vb6 and direct x. Microsoft have, as we've been told dropped vb6 support and messed about with many of their direct x components. with the number of accessible games being so small, it is a real shame when they cannot be run on newer machines due to lack of support for the components. Again, since windows xp existed as a viable os for close to 10 years and is still largely in use today, we're talking about a long period of time and not a few games, indeed a post last year on audiogames.net was from a 64 bit windows user who complained that the upgrade actually lost! them more than it gained. If I could be certain the dependencies to run games like classic pipe were still available in some sense for post xp windows, I'd be less concerned about upgrading my os. While I know vb6 is likely to continue as a viable option provided dependencies are installed, which is why developers like Jim and Aprone can still write games in it, I'm less certain regarding other components, especially with what I've heard of other games not working under later windows versions. *snip* This point is really just the same as your first point, with the same solutions available, be that virtual machines,
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hello there Yes and now they are pushing windows 8 how sickening, but if U have a old computer that runs xp there is always the code in the back of the computer that you can download xp and put that code in. aslong as you are not running 2 computers with the same code your good. I just got a very nasty bug 3 or 4 months ago that fried my pc. I bilte a new pc from ground up and downloaded xp to a thumbdrive, but after that I just put the old code in and it was as good as new. you just have to make shore that you have the proper xp version for the code. Like pro for pro and home for home, but that still doesn't solv the problom that mS is pushing there new junk on us and there is nothing wrong with there old stuff. bfn James -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:24 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi, on top of all this, there is one simple thing to look at. Look at the main gaming industry. There are a lot of games out there that do not support anything less than Windows 7. So we aren't the first to see this happen. In fact, the audio games industry is being held back by the fact that we are being encouraged to keep supporting old OSs. So I think it's time that we look at the bigger picture of computing, and the capabilities that new OSs provide, and look at upgrading and what it would providers, rather than what it does not provide us! Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:50, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't repeatedly warn VB developers what would happen years in advance. So let's begin by placing the blame where blame is due. Regarding the user interface it is definitely different in Windows 7 and in Windows 8 but there are workarounds for what you want. The Classic Shell application restores many of the Windows XP U.I. elements you are talking about including the classic Start Menu etc. So saying it is not possible to have listed menus and coherent folder structures, is absolutely false. If you were to install the Classic Shell add-on for Windows you would restore a semblance of the Windows XP look and feel to modern versions of Windows. Finally, while it is certainly your right to choose to upgrade or not upgrade let me say that it puts us game developers in an untenable situation. What I mean by that is sometimes it is not possible to support both older versions of Windows and newer versions of Windows at the same time. The way technology changes a developer has to make decisions weather to create games for a legacy operating system like XP or stick with whatever is current. There are technical considerations that you, the end user, do not have to make but we do. For example, consider virtual 3d audio. While DirectSound has virtual 3d support the fact of the matter is it isn't very good and it doesn't work properly on Windows 7 and Windows 8. The solution or fix for the problem is to switch to Microsoft's new DirectX audio API XAudio2 which works fine on Windows 7 and Windows 8. However, next year Microsoft will no longer be providing updates for Windows XP, including XAudio2 for XP, so as a game developer my
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Josh and all, Snip The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. End Snip Exactly. I've done that very thing myself many times and I think it is the most practical solution to the problem of upgrading from one technology to another. For example, when DVDs came out I did not immediately throw out all my VHS tapes. Instead what I did was buy a DVD player and slowly collect my favorite movies and shows on DVD. Once I had replaced all my VHS tapes with DVDs I got rid of the VHS tapes. I used both a VCR and DVD player for many years and I didn't consider it an all or nothing situation. This situation with XP is just as easy to resolve. If Dark or someone had a laptop running XP they could easily put it in a carrying case and store it in a closet when not using XP, but get it out when they want to play older games and run older applications while at the same time own a brand spanking new laptop with Windows 8 on it. Why not have the best of both worlds? Snip And, as far as Draconis goes, we are working to move our games forward to modern operating systems. End Snip Same here with USA Games. One of our goals right now is finding out what we have to do to make our games more compatible with Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8. Things like making our games work with User Account Control and XAudio2 are more valuable to us over the long term than maintaining backwards compatibility with XP. Snip At some point, you will be forced to upgrade. You can do it on your own terms and find solutions to these challenges yourself, or you can wait until circumstance makes it necessary, and have squandered the time you had to make the upgrade smoother. I suppose it comes down to where the tipping point for each individual will be. When does the future hold more promise than retreading the ground of the past. End Snip I am in full agreement. The people who dig there heals in and go kicking and screaming into the future would be better off trying to resolve problems now rather than waiting until circumstances forces the decision on a person. Progress stops for no man, and if someone stops to fight it progress will eventually run them over. Snip I agree that upgrading just to be able to say you have the latest and greatest is not a sound mindset. An upgrade should offer tangible benefits. If it doesn't, you're clearly using the wrong OS for you, and perhaps should consider alternatives. End Snip Agreed. I certainly don't believe in the idea that people should upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. There always should be some benefit to upgrading, and usually there are benefits that a person may or may not know about in advance. As long as someone has the mindset that there is absolutely nothing good about Windows 7, Windows 8, etc then they won't be able to see those benefits because they have already made their mind up to dislike it benefits or no benefits. Snip The above points you raise are less reasons than justifications, in my opinion. There are solutions, some of them reasonably simple, to both of them. End snip Yes, agreed. There are reasonably simple solutions to the problems Dark raised such as maintaining two computers instead of one, but I haven't heard anything that justifies his points. All I see is a bunch of reasons why he dislikes the new versions of Windows so much, and weather I agree with him or not that won't change the fact that no matter how much he likes or dislikes Windows 8 it is the present and XP is the past. Neither Microsoft or any other developer will continue to support it forever. Sooner or later all good things must come to an end. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi. one of my intrinsic problems with this upgrade business is to do with practical good and also practicality of how many computers one can actually own. i do not actually have the space for more than one desktop, plus laptops have a shorter life generally. Virtual xp is always a solution next to a main os, but how well that runs I'm not sure over all. As regards windows 7 generally however, one of my main issues with this debate is that programmers take a look at a new system and say wow, look at the specs, look at the hardware, support for this that and the other etc Myself, i don't give a monkey's rear how much ram a computer has, what programs it runs what processor it has etc, it's all a question of what can I do with it. This is also wy i cryticize post xp windows and microsoft's over all approach to interface generally, since frankly having used windows 7 on several machines I do not agree with dallas point, and while classic shell might be an option, well why should I move from an interface I'm comfortable with, that I can personally customize to one I must jigger with in order to work? and that's not just in the programs either. if there were hundreds of great new games which required windows 7, well I'd likely have a good reason to, but that is simply not the case, which is quite ironic given that I did make a similar switch from windows 98 to xp back in 2002 for precisely that reason. From a pure usability perspective, mac is probably a better option than post xp windows at the moment, however legacy support is a severe issue, particularly with developers who continue to essentially write for xp, and even more specifically when there are comparatively few audio games on mac. while I do appreciate the issues that developers have, at the same time there is an element of give and take needed I think, which is exactly why I suggested developers aide in this situation, eg, by writing a guide on virtual xp emulation with download for mac and windows 7, for trying to do something about dosbox and vb6 etc, since at least for some people sticking with xp it is a bit more than simple bloodymindedness, and if developers do indeed want more people to shift to newer os so that they can take advantage of all this stuff, maybe this is something that they can help with. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dallas, Correct. One of the things Windows 8 brings to the table regarding accessibility is Microsoft Narrator is vastly improved over prior versions.Wile I wouldn't take it over something like NVDA it is far better than anything else Microsoft has provided before. Better screen review commands, and better Sapi voices as well. Some of the new Microsoft voices on Windows 8 are easily as good as the Vocalizer voices and they come free with the OS. I've used Microsoft David with NvDA and Narrator and it isn't too bad. Further more Microsoft has replaced MSAA with U.I. Automation which is a far better API than MSAA ever was. U.I. Automation is the way of the future and will revolutionize access on Windows 8 and beyond. As a result of technologies like U.I. Automation screen readers like Jaws and Window-Eyes no longer need off-screen models and video drivers to read the screen because they can get it from the Windows API directly. This will only aid not hinder access. Bottom line, the user interface has changed drastically in Windows 8 since Windows XP, but different is not the same as inaccessible. The statement that Microsoft is getting less accessible is just propaganda bandied about by people who are trying to justify not upgrading to Windows 8. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, also, I'm not too sure where the idea that Microsoft has not been helping accessibility in more modern versions of windows. In fact, Windows 7, and more especially windows 8, are far more accessible than XP ever was. And their knew protocols, and APIs, that provide better accessibility now, then before. So again, not sure where this one came from. And I agree,, having an old machine with the older OS, is often the better option. Obviously, if you're fine with what you have now, then stay with it. However, XP will be losing support as of this time next year. So I would suggest, that you start looking at moving ahead now, before you're forced to. Mainly, because of the security risk you will be dealing with, when XP no longer is being provided the security updates. And in this modern world, where you are connected so much, to the Internet, it would be pointless to remain in a less secure OS. I myself, am seriously considering going with a Mac for my next computer, and dual booting windows on it. Best of both worlds. The only problem with that, is the cost of a Mac out right. Anyway, on with the games. LOL. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Tom and all, I agree entirely, which is why, in my previous note, I specified that the mess isn't just for screen reader users. Windows 8 is widely getting slammed by users because it is a mess, but that has nothing to do with the accessibility. Microsoft is improving with access, even if it is extremely late to the party. On Apr 30, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dallas, Correct. One of the things Windows 8 brings to the table regarding accessibility is Microsoft Narrator is vastly improved over prior versions.Wile I wouldn't take it over something like NVDA it is far better than anything else Microsoft has provided before. Better screen review commands, and better Sapi voices as well. Some of the new Microsoft voices on Windows 8 are easily as good as the Vocalizer voices and they come free with the OS. I've used Microsoft David with NvDA and Narrator and it isn't too bad. Further more Microsoft has replaced MSAA with U.I. Automation which is a far better API than MSAA ever was. U.I. Automation is the way of the future and will revolutionize access on Windows 8 and beyond. As a result of technologies like U.I. Automation screen readers like Jaws and Window-Eyes no longer need off-screen models and video drivers to read the screen because they can get it from the Windows API directly. This will only aid not hinder access. Bottom line, the user interface has changed drastically in Windows 8 since Windows XP, but different is not the same as inaccessible. The statement that Microsoft is getting less accessible is just propaganda bandied about by people who are trying to justify not upgrading to Windows 8. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, also, I'm not too sure where the idea that Microsoft has not been helping accessibility in more modern versions of windows. In fact, Windows 7, and more especially windows 8, are far more accessible than XP ever was. And their knew protocols, and APIs, that provide better accessibility now, then before. So again, not sure where this one came from. And I agree,, having an old machine with the older OS, is often the better option. Obviously, if you're fine with what you have now, then stay with it. However, XP will be losing support as of this time next year. So I would suggest, that you start looking at moving ahead now, before you're forced to. Mainly, because of the security risk you will be dealing with, when XP no longer is being provided the security updates. And in this modern world, where you are connected so much, to the Internet, it would be pointless to remain in a less secure OS. I myself, am seriously considering going with a Mac for my next computer, and dual booting windows on it. Best of both worlds. The only problem with that, is the cost of a Mac out right. Anyway, on with the games. LOL. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
As for having to upgrade to a newer OS because the older ones aren't being supported, shouldn't the game developers use the tools of the trade that their customers can use? If you decide to create software that the newer systems can run but older systems cannot, and your customers are still using the older OS, aren't you shooting yourself in the foot? I don't follow the logic that dictates that users must upgrade to a less user friendly OS that won't run the software you have been accumulating because it is not being supported by the developers. It makes more sense to me that the developers should not be the determining factors as to what is produced for the end user. The end user should be the one to determine what is produced. If the majority of blind people cannot afford to upgrade their machines every few years, and the upgrades won't be easily accessible without major modifications and headaches, we should not have to be forced to make that upgrade, and developers should offer what the end user can use. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't repeatedly warn VB developers what would happen years in advance. So let's begin by placing the blame where blame is due. Regarding the user interface it is definitely different in Windows 7 and in Windows 8 but there are workarounds for what you want. The Classic Shell application restores many of the Windows XP U.I. elements you are talking about including the classic Start Menu etc. So saying it is not possible to have listed menus and coherent folder structures, is absolutely false. If you were to install the Classic Shell add-on for Windows you would restore a semblance of the Windows XP look and feel to modern versions of Windows. Finally, while it is certainly your right to choose to upgrade or not upgrade let me say that it puts us game developers in an untenable situation. What I mean by that is sometimes it is not possible to support both older versions of Windows and newer versions of Windows at the same time. The way technology changes a developer has to make decisions weather
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
What if you're not sure of the name of what you're looking for? Is there a way to hunt for something you would recognize when you find it? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: john jpcarnemo...@comcast.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Dark, After reading your message, I'd like to know how much actual experience you have with windows seven. The only part of your message I can't completely contradict is the part about dos applications, and even those should run under a 32-bit version of the OS, if you really want them to. All vb6 games run under windows seven; I have yet to find an audiogame I couldn't run on my machine. As regards interface, it's simply a matter of getting used to a few things. There are some absolutely massive upgrades in windows seven, the search box especially. I've found that only once a month or so will I even need to open up my programs folder; all I need to do is type in a small portion of the file name in the search box and I'm ready to go. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Isn't this exactly why older hardware should be supported? People still use them. Supply what the people want rather than the other way around. If l7 out of 10 of my customers use older machines, I would produce stuff they can use. To me, saying that we are moving on and it is up to you as to whether you follow the trends is counterproductive when dealing with visually impaired customers based on their very valid reasons for not wanting to upgrade. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, Not only that, but the problem for people wanting to maintain XP after 2014 is hardware support. After next year most hardware manufacturers will no longer be providing drivers for sound cards, video cards, network cards, etc for XP. So if someone needs to replace a hardware component for any reason someone running XP will have to go to Ebay or a used computer parts store to get XP compatible hardware just because all hardware and software support for XP ends next year weather people like it or not. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Tom. My statement was primarily regarding windows 7. I've had no experiences with 8 so haven't drawn a judgement, indeed I was tempted to skip windows 7 entirely since what I've tried of the os I completely disliked. however, it is the layout and lack of abilities to customize that irritate me specificaly. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Charles.e i wouldnt' go that far, I do think it's a two sided problem ccombined with lack of support for older systems and microsoft's bad approach to ui's in post xp windows (or at least in 7), however I do get a little tired of developers constantly saying well microsoft is doing this that and the other and the new stuff is better so we must all upgrade to make better games Fundimentally, if 7 had the same ui as xp and same functionality, I'd upgrade like a shott and the same goes for others. Windows 8 I don't have an opinion on yet since on the one hand I don't like lack of customization in the Ui, on the other I do appreciate that microsoft are finally! doing something decent about access at the basic level, though how well this works in practice when we get down to the nuts and bolts I can't say having not ried a windows 8 system yet. beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
If it ain't broke, why fix it until it is broken? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hello there Yes and now they are pushing windows 8 how sickening, but if U have a old computer that runs xp there is always the code in the back of the computer that you can download xp and put that code in. aslong as you are not running 2 computers with the same code your good. I just got a very nasty bug 3 or 4 months ago that fried my pc. I bilte a new pc from ground up and downloaded xp to a thumbdrive, but after that I just put the old code in and it was as good as new. you just have to make shore that you have the proper xp version for the code. Like pro for pro and home for home, but that still doesn't solv the problom that mS is pushing there new junk on us and there is nothing wrong with there old stuff. bfn James -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:24 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Well were you live you might be able to get another xp box, but here in the states those are memories. The shops and stores sense win7 came out now support that op and won't even think of selling xp. Its just like computers you may have a good running box. However, progress makes that box out dated before the year is out. Progress always moves forward not backward in the case of xp. Even software creators see that and move with it those that don't no longer have saleable software. So you keep that xp box and when the new stuff won't work on it don't cry, because you chose that option not software providers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi charlse. i do agree, particularly since a lot of the changes in windows 7 are cosmetic at best (heck, nobody blind or sighted likes the ui either but microsoft are forcing people to use it since you can't buy a new computer without). The same goes for other programs and products too, for example microsoft outlook express is by far my favourite male client since it does what I want and no more. I've tried windows messenger and indeed thunderbird on windwos 77, but both had the practice of chuck as much at the screen as possible, so that a bazillion functions and controls were all over the place, indeed this seems to be a regular thing with all modern ui's, instead of having different functions in different windows, menues and the like that could be open, stuff is just chucked everywhere regardless. This works on a tablet with a touch screen because you have the spacial relations to go on, though even so I do miss just pressing one letter to instantly find something, however without! a touch screen that sort of thing is murder, or at least it seemed that way given the several hours I spent with a win7 machine trying to work the blooody thing out and constantly having stuff change position and muck about on me. yes, I could get used to it, but why should I if there aren't any actual new functions on the computer that would help me do what I do better? Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, Snip Virtual XP is always a solution next to a main os, but how well that runs I'm not sure over all. End Snip Well, unfortunately that all depends on how much CPU power and memory you have to spare for a secondary OS. Generally running XP in a virtual machine will runn a bit slower than natively and that means games may not perform as well on that virtual machine. I have heard of cases where input and graphics lag so it can be problematic. Still, if you really can't afford the space for a secondary machine then its about the best you can do when it comes to running older software on a modern PC. Snip As regards windows 7 generally however, one of my main issues with this debate is that programmers take a look at a new system and say wow, look at the specs, look at the hardware, support for this that and the other etc End Snip Maybe some programmers look at it that way, but many professional developers, including myself, do not look at new versions of Windows that way. For most people I know it is viewed from the perspective of sustained compatibility. What do we have to do in order to make sure what we write today will still be compatible on the next generation OS? What libraries will be removed, deprecated, or replaced on the new version of Windows? What features can we use to make our software better for new customers? The point I am getting at is its not about looking at a new OS and looking strictly at specs, hardware, or anything like that. While those things will certainly influence a developers decisions it isn't the whole story. There is more to it than you indicate in your message. Snip Well why should I move from an interface I'm comfortable with, that I can personally customize to one I must jigger with in order to work? End Snip Well, how long do you think Windows XP is going to last? Do you see yourself 30 years from now still running a computer made in 2005 with Windows XP on it? The point Dallas and I have been making is that weather you like the new interface or not it doesn't matter in the long run. We can argue back and forth until the end of time, but it won't change a thing. Sooner or later the computers you have will break down, parts will be hard to obtain, and new copies of XP will not be available. Weather that day comes ten, fifteen, or twenty years down the road you will probably end up buying anew computer running something other than XP and you'll just have to accept the new interface regardless if you like it or not. Snip while I do appreciate the issues that developers have, at the same time there is an element of give and take needed I think, which is exactly why I suggested developers aide in this situation, eg, by writing a guide on virtual xp emulation with download for mac and windows 7, for trying to do something about dosbox and vb6 etc, since at least for some people sticking with xp it is a bit more than simple bloodymindedness, and if developers do indeed want more people to shift to newer os so that they can take advantage of all this stuff, maybe this is something that they can help with. End Snip Well, to be fair there is already a lot of documentation and tutorials on how to do this already. VMWare the company that produces VMWare Player, Fusion, and Workstation already have indepth guides on setting up and running virtual machines. I don't know that any more documentation is necessary and if so what we could add to what is already there. Plus while it is not strictly legal it is possible to download ready made virtual machines of XP and all you need do is extract them, run VMWare Player, and tell it to boot the new virtual machine you just installed. When you here the XP start sound you can then install Jaws, MVDA, Supernova, or whatever screen reader you want. So its not as complex as you might think. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Why shouldn't it be the other way around? Support what is used by the users rather than use what isn't supported and then try to support what is used? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, on top of all this, there is one simple thing to look at. Look at the main gaming industry. There are a lot of games out there that do not support anything less than Windows 7. So we aren't the first to see this happen. In fact, the audio games industry is being held back by the fact that we are being encouraged to keep supporting old OSs. So I think it's time that we look at the bigger picture of computing, and the capabilities that new OSs provide, and look at upgrading and what it would providers, rather than what it does not provide us! Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:50, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't repeatedly warn VB developers what would happen years in advance. So let's begin by placing the blame where blame is due. Regarding the user interface it is definitely different in Windows 7 and in Windows 8 but there are workarounds for what you want. The Classic Shell application restores many of the Windows XP U.I. elements you are talking about including the classic Start Menu etc. So saying it is not possible to have listed menus and coherent folder structures, is absolutely false. If you were to install the Classic Shell add-on for Windows you would restore a semblance of the Windows XP look and feel to modern versions of Windows. Finally, while it is certainly your right to choose to upgrade or not upgrade let me say that it puts us game developers in an untenable situation. What I mean by that is sometimes it is not possible to support both older versions of Windows and newer versions of Windows at the same time. The way technology changes a developer has to make decisions weather to create games for a legacy operating system like XP or stick with whatever is current. There are technical considerations that you, the end user, do not have to make but we do. For example, consider virtual 3d audio. While DirectSound has
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Dark, Responses throughout again. *snip* one of my intrinsic problems with this upgrade business is to do with practical good and also practicality of how many computers one can actually own. i do not actually have the space for more than one desktop, plus laptops have a shorter life generally. Virtual xp is always a solution next to a main os, but how well that runs I'm not sure over all. *snip* These days, with SSD's and the like, laptops have comparable life-spans to desktops. And, since several options proposed do *not* involve having multiple machines, I fail to see the problem here, either. *snip* As regards windows 7 generally however, one of my main issues with this debate is that programmers take a look at a new system and say wow, look at the specs, look at the hardware, support for this that and the other etc Myself, i don't give a monkey's rear how much ram a computer has, what programs it runs what processor it has etc, it's all a question of what can I do with it. This is also wy i cryticize post xp windows and microsoft's over all approach to interface generally, since frankly having used windows 7 on several machines I do not agree with dallas point, and while classic shell might be an option, well why should I move from an interface I'm comfortable with, that I can personally customize to one I must jigger with in order to work? and that's not just in the programs either. *snip* No one here has said anything about RAM or any other hardware specs, so that argument is coming out of left field. Generally speaking, i don't care that much about hardware specs either. It is the usability of the machine that is the main concern. People have given you quite a few good reasons to upgrade in this thread, you just aren't listening, because your mind is already made up, and you aren't really considering other possible scenarios. If in a couple of years you're still running XP and a newly discovered security exploit leaves you high and dry, then that is the risk you are choosing to take. If you still go out and purchase another XP machine after that, then you've got no one to blame but yourself. *snip* if there were hundreds of great new games which required windows 7, well I'd likely have a good reason to, but that is simply not the case, which is quite ironic given that I did make a similar switch from windows 98 to xp back in 2002 for precisely that reason. *snip* Back then, there wasn't a contingency of users trying to keep developers from moving on to XP, hence you were forced to change. I propose developers do this again to help move things along. *grin* *snip* From a pure usability perspective, mac is probably a better option than post xp windows at the moment, however legacy support is a severe issue, particularly with developers who continue to essentially write for xp, and even more specifically when there are comparatively few audio games on mac. *snip* Since on a Mac you can have a native install of XP or any other version of Windows you like since, I fail to understand this argument. By having a Mac with a *native* install of XP, or Win7, or whatever you want, you have the best of both worlds in a machine that you will probably be able to use for years and years to come. A modern OS for debs who are moving forward, and an XP install for your old titles. *snip* while I do appreciate the issues that developers have, at the same time there is an element of give and take needed I think, which is exactly why I suggested developers aide in this situation, eg, by writing a guide on virtual xp emulation with download for mac and windows 7, for trying to do something about dosbox and vb6 etc, since at least for some people sticking with xp it is a bit more than simple bloodymindedness, and if developers do indeed want more people to shift to newer os so that they can take advantage of all this stuff, maybe this is something that they can help with. *snip* As I said, for our part, we're moving our games forward to modern OS's. I think asking developers to give up what they are working on to solve your problems is a bit much, especially when there are simpler solutions already available than what you are proposing be done. Windows 7 with a classic shell, XP on a dual boot system, Mac/Windows dual boot system, etc. Many of your arguments are based on incorrect or long out-of-date assumptions, much like your assertion in previous discussions about iTunes music, etc. You have several folks here explaining to you that things don't need to be the doom and gloom you say, and giving you several possible options to the problems you raise. If sticking with XP is what you want, by all means stick with it, but understand that you can't rely on others to bail you out if that decision backfires…whether that means that you start missing out on games that won't run on XP, your security is compromised by a new
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Tom. I completely agree that in 10, 20 years down the line etc things will change, however that is not the current decision. When I considder do I change from xp to a newer os, I way up the costs and bennifits. It is entirely possible that windows 8 (with a touch screen), windows 9, mac os etc will have sufficient bennifits in terms of new and interesting stuff to do on it for me to want to upgrade, heck I've already bought an Iphone just for that reason. Equally however one thing I do notice betwene pc and console games is that while mainstream console games are heavily supported on newer systems, indeed I hear of ac ompletely retro console under developement, so that if my snes ever gave up the ghost I wouldn't lose my games, the same is simply not true for pc titles which is why legacy support is such an important factor. Fundamentally, if microsoft did! do their job properly and support all their old libraries on newer versions of windows, just as windows right up to xp had ful dos support meaning that you could run a peace of software written in the late 70's right up to now, we would not be having this conversation since even if there were! newer games that only ran on newer windows you wouldn't be asking users to give up what games they had already in addition to accepting microsoft's silly interface. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi Charles, When it comes to hardware manufacturers they are looking at it from the perspective of PC builders and manufacturers like Del, HP, Gateway, etc. Those companies are building new PCs with Windows 7 and Windows 8 on them so that is where the market is for hardware manufacturers. Trying to sustain backwards compatibility with XP wouldn't be in their best interests long term. What I mean by that is it all comes down to money. Del, HP, Gateway, Toshiba,etc make their money buy selling new computers. The hardware manufacturers Intel, AMD, Asuse, ATI, and so on make their money by selling parts to the PC builders. Microsoft as the largest software manufacturer in the world also insures their OS is designed for the new hardware rather than making it backwards compatible with systems older than five years or so. Neither group has any interest or desire to insure your five or ten year old machine can be upgraded because everyone loses money from the hardware manufacturers, the software providers, and the PC builders on down the line. Put another way if 7 out of every 10 customers have XP then the goal of a PC manufacturer like Del and a software developer like Microsoft is to find a way to get as many of those people to upgrade to the latest hardware and software for sale. One way to do that is by simply stopping all support for the prior OS, and stop making parts for it. Sooner or later the reluctant customer has a choice to upgrade or do without. Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Isn't this exactly why older hardware should be supported? People still use them. Supply what the people want rather than the other way around. If l7 out of 10 of my customers use older machines, I would produce stuff they can use. To me, saying that we are moving on and it is up to you as to whether you follow the trends is counterproductive when dealing with visually impaired customers based on their very valid reasons for not wanting to upgrade. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Hi josh. I never said I would not! upgrade, only that I had looked at the pros and cons and decided against it. Remember, my comments about the interface in windows 7 do not just reflect the main start menue and windows explorer, but also programs like outlook express, microsoft office etc, since in windows 7 all of those things change. Also bare in mind these are not based upon unwarrented assumptions, but on several hours spen looking around a number of machines running windows 7. It is true I have not yet tried windows 8, so my comments are mostly directed at windows 7 in particular. as far as virtual machines go, this is precisely why I suggest! people put out more information. for a none programmer, running a virtual machine is not such a simple matter at all, aprticularly without vision, and though I have red articals on the subject nothing has looked symple particularly when you cannot read the windows boot screen etc, hence my original suggestion. as to creating post xp games, well that would give a reason to upgrade, though bare in mind there are so many negatives with windows 7 there would need to be a lot of extremely good games to count the balance, as indeed there are currently on Iphone. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Charles, The biggest reason for this is the future. Look what has happened to BSC games. XP has far more years behind than ahead. We can't afford to make games that might, at best, have only 2 or 3 years of a life span. And, at present, we are in a weird transition time. We have roughly equal numbers of Win7 and Win XP users at the moment, with XP only a very slight advantage, judging by the visitor stats to the Draconis website. If we focus on XP, we're compromising the experience for users of new versions of Windows, in order to support users who can only realistically continue using XP for a very short time to come, comparatively speaking. The only logical thing to do is support as much as we can, with a focus on the newer systems, which eventually everyone will be using like it or not. Otherwise, we're pouring our effort into something that, in just a few years, will be useless. Draconis, at least, is trying to avoid the fate BSC titles now face. Microsoft could have made this transition smoother for developers and users alike, but didn't . We're all muddling through. On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Why shouldn't it be the other way around? Support what is used by the users rather than use what isn't supported and then try to support what is used? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, on top of all this, there is one simple thing to look at. Look at the main gaming industry. There are a lot of games out there that do not support anything less than Windows 7. So we aren't the first to see this happen. In fact, the audio games industry is being held back by the fact that we are being encouraged to keep supporting old OSs. So I think it's time that we look at the bigger picture of computing, and the capabilities that new OSs provide, and look at upgrading and what it would providers, rather than what it does not provide us! Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:50, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Which is also why there needs to be better reasons to stop using xp than currently, aprticularly given the buggered interface and lack of customization. Frankly microsoft need shooting over that one saying well you get what we give and like it rather than giving people choices about what they want in a new os. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Well, as Tom said, and I eluded to, there isn't really much to add. The process for installing a VM, at least on Mac, is extremely simple for anyone. It literally consists of these steps: 1. Install the VMWare Fusion app, which is 100% accessible. 2. Insert a Windows XP install disc and click to create a new VM. 3. Follow the prompts and type in the key for the Windows XP disc. 4. VMWare does all of the inaccessible Windows installation screens for you, so you're done. install your screen reader and use Windows. That's literally all there is to it. I've actually done this several times already. On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:46 PM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi josh. I never said I would not! upgrade, only that I had looked at the pros and cons and decided against it. Remember, my comments about the interface in windows 7 do not just reflect the main start menue and windows explorer, but also programs like outlook express, microsoft office etc, since in windows 7 all of those things change. Also bare in mind these are not based upon unwarrented assumptions, but on several hours spen looking around a number of machines running windows 7. It is true I have not yet tried windows 8, so my comments are mostly directed at windows 7 in particular. as far as virtual machines go, this is precisely why I suggest! people put out more information. for a none programmer, running a virtual machine is not such a simple matter at all, aprticularly without vision, and though I have red articals on the subject nothing has looked symple particularly when you cannot read the windows boot screen etc, hence my original suggestion. as to creating post xp games, well that would give a reason to upgrade, though bare in mind there are so many negatives with windows 7 there would need to be a lot of extremely good games to count the balance, as indeed there are currently on Iphone. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
The rub is that, unlike the majority of sighted, and employed, computer users, the visually impaired, for the most part, are unemployed, and don't have the money to go out and buy a new machine that is up to today's standards. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Josh and all, Snip The vast, vast, vast majority of Windows users never upgrade their existing machine. They go buy a cheap new computer which happens to have the latest OS on it. When this occurs, rather than going through channels to keep using obsolete software, hang on to the old machine to play such games, and keep that machine in as good repair as possible, much as I have had to do with vinyl record players over the years. End Snip Exactly. I've done that very thing myself many times and I think it is the most practical solution to the problem of upgrading from one technology to another. For example, when DVDs came out I did not immediately throw out all my VHS tapes. Instead what I did was buy a DVD player and slowly collect my favorite movies and shows on DVD. Once I had replaced all my VHS tapes with DVDs I got rid of the VHS tapes. I used both a VCR and DVD player for many years and I didn't consider it an all or nothing situation. This situation with XP is just as easy to resolve. If Dark or someone had a laptop running XP they could easily put it in a carrying case and store it in a closet when not using XP, but get it out when they want to play older games and run older applications while at the same time own a brand spanking new laptop with Windows 8 on it. Why not have the best of both worlds? Snip And, as far as Draconis goes, we are working to move our games forward to modern operating systems. End Snip Same here with USA Games. One of our goals right now is finding out what we have to do to make our games more compatible with Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8. Things like making our games work with User Account Control and XAudio2 are more valuable to us over the long term than maintaining backwards compatibility with XP. Snip At some point, you will be forced to upgrade. You can do it on your own terms and find solutions to these challenges yourself, or you can wait until circumstance makes it necessary, and have squandered the time you had to make the upgrade smoother. I suppose it comes down to where the tipping point for each individual will be. When does the future hold more promise than retreading the ground of the past. End Snip I am in full agreement. The people who dig there heals in and go kicking and screaming into the future would be better off trying to resolve problems now rather than waiting until circumstances forces the decision on a person. Progress stops for no man, and if someone stops to fight it progress will eventually run them over. Snip I agree that upgrading just to be able to say you have the latest and greatest is not a sound mindset. An upgrade should offer tangible benefits. If it doesn't, you're clearly using the wrong OS for you, and perhaps should consider alternatives. End Snip Agreed. I certainly don't believe in the idea that people should upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. There always should be some benefit to upgrading, and usually there are benefits that a person may or may not know about in advance. As long as someone has the mindset that there is absolutely nothing good about Windows 7, Windows 8, etc then they won't be able to see those benefits because they have already made their mind up to dislike it benefits or no benefits. Snip The above points you raise are less reasons than justifications, in my opinion. There are solutions, some of them reasonably simple, to both of them. End snip Yes, agreed. There are reasonably simple solutions to the problems Dark raised such as maintaining two computers instead of one, but I haven't heard anything that justifies his points. All I see is a bunch of reasons why he dislikes the new versions of Windows so much, and weather I agree with him or not that won't change the fact that no matter how much he likes or dislikes Windows 8 it is the present and XP is the past. Neither Microsoft or any other developer will continue to support it forever. Sooner or later all good things must come to an end. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Fair enough, well that is likely a reason for me to possibly considder a mac in the future, though I'll have to try windows 8 first. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Draconis i...@dracoent.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Well, as Tom said, and I eluded to, there isn't really much to add. The process for installing a VM, at least on Mac, is extremely simple for anyone. It literally consists of these steps: 1. Install the VMWare Fusion app, which is 100% accessible. 2. Insert a Windows XP install disc and click to create a new VM. 3. Follow the prompts and type in the key for the Windows XP disc. 4. VMWare does all of the inaccessible Windows installation screens for you, so you're done. install your screen reader and use Windows. That's literally all there is to it. I've actually done this several times already. On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:46 PM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi josh. I never said I would not! upgrade, only that I had looked at the pros and cons and decided against it. Remember, my comments about the interface in windows 7 do not just reflect the main start menue and windows explorer, but also programs like outlook express, microsoft office etc, since in windows 7 all of those things change. Also bare in mind these are not based upon unwarrented assumptions, but on several hours spen looking around a number of machines running windows 7. It is true I have not yet tried windows 8, so my comments are mostly directed at windows 7 in particular. as far as virtual machines go, this is precisely why I suggest! people put out more information. for a none programmer, running a virtual machine is not such a simple matter at all, aprticularly without vision, and though I have red articals on the subject nothing has looked symple particularly when you cannot read the windows boot screen etc, hence my original suggestion. as to creating post xp games, well that would give a reason to upgrade, though bare in mind there are so many negatives with windows 7 there would need to be a lot of extremely good games to count the balance, as indeed there are currently on Iphone. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
As a blind person, I still very much prefer pulldown menus rather than ribbons, and I use Outlook Express because it is user friendly and for a visually impaired person, it! works! Why be forced to switch from what works well to what doesn't only because it is newer? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi charlse. i do agree, particularly since a lot of the changes in windows 7 are cosmetic at best (heck, nobody blind or sighted likes the ui either but microsoft are forcing people to use it since you can't buy a new computer without). The same goes for other programs and products too, for example microsoft outlook express is by far my favourite male client since it does what I want and no more. I've tried windows messenger and indeed thunderbird on windwos 77, but both had the practice of chuck as much at the screen as possible, so that a bazillion functions and controls were all over the place, indeed this seems to be a regular thing with all modern ui's, instead of having different functions in different windows, menues and the like that could be open, stuff is just chucked everywhere regardless. This works on a tablet with a touch screen because you have the spacial relations to go on, though even so I do miss just pressing one letter to instantly find something, however without! a touch screen that sort of thing is murder, or at least it seemed that way given the several hours I spent with a win7 machine trying to work the blooody thing out and constantly having stuff change position and muck about on me. yes, I could get used to it, but why should I if there aren't any actual new functions on the computer that would help me do what I do better? Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows
Especially in view of the fact that, as has been pointed out before, the vast majority of blind folks are unemployed, some by choice I'm sure but most not, and therefore can't afford to go out and buy new machines, even if they would actually like to upgrade. But thou must! On 4/30/2013 10:28 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: Why shouldn't it be the other way around? Support what is used by the users rather than use what isn't supported and then try to support what is used? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi, on top of all this, there is one simple thing to look at. Look at the main gaming industry. There are a lot of games out there that do not support anything less than Windows 7. So we aren't the first to see this happen. In fact, the audio games industry is being held back by the fact that we are being encouraged to keep supporting old OSs. So I think it's time that we look at the bigger picture of computing, and the capabilities that new OSs provide, and look at upgrading and what it would providers, rather than what it does not provide us! Regards: Dallas On 30/04/2013, at 22:50, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Like so many things in life there are two sides to every argument, and I certainly can't dispute that the issues you raised are valid, but there is another side to the debate as well. It is true that on 64-bit versions of Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 it is not possible to play older 16-bit Dos games without a third-party emulator like Dosbox which is unfortunately not accessible. However, the real problem is not Windows, but the newer 64-bit processors themselves as they can not execute 16-bit applications natively which is why Microsoft dropped 16-bit support in newer versions of Windows. The problem for developers like Microsoft is why should they spend time and money trying to support old 16-bit applications that is no longer supported by the hardware of today when there are free applications like Dosbox available? However, the problem with making Dosbox accessible is easier said than done. From what I know of Dosbox in order to make it accessible a developer would be better off rewriting the emulator completely from scratch. That is no minor undertaking, and are you and the rest of the V.I. community willing to pay for this to be done? The second issue you raised is that of Visual Basic 6 support. I frankly don't know what you expect us developers to do about that situation. In my opinion there is frankly nothing we can do about that situation directly. The only thing we can do as end users and developers is encourage those using Visual Basic to upgrade to something more modern as quickly as they can to avoid any more needless compatibility issues. Otherwise we are going to experience more issues like those with the BSC games and Windows 8 as newer versions of Windows become available. What I am about to say will sound harsh to many, but I think it needs to be said. As early as 2006 I remember Microsoft actively encouraging Visual Basic 6 developers to upgrade to VB .NET and to move away from DirectX 8 as time was running out. Most of the mainstream developers listened and chose to begin upgrading their software to VB .NET 2005. Here we are nearly 7 years later and the majority of audio game developers are still using it even though Visual Basic 6 was discontinued as far back as 2008. So any compatibility issues we have with games and Windows 8 are the fault of those audio game developers who have chosen for one reason or another not to adopt newer programming languages and tools. It is the audio game developers who are making it difficult to upgrade to say Windows 8 without worrying if game x will or won't be compatible not Microsoft. Its not like Microsoft didn't repeatedly warn VB developers what would happen years in advance. So let's begin by placing the blame where blame is due. Regarding the user interface it is definitely different in Windows 7 and in Windows 8 but there are workarounds for what you want. The Classic Shell application restores many of the Windows XP U.I. elements you are talking about including the classic Start Menu etc. So saying it is not possible to have listed menus and coherent folder structures, is absolutely false. If you were to install the Classic Shell add-on for Windows you would restore a semblance of the Windows XP look and feel to modern versions of Windows. Finally, while it is certainly your right to choose to upgrade or not upgrade let me say that it puts us game developers in an untenable situation. What I mean by that is sometimes it is not possible to support both older versions of Windows and newer versions of Windows
