RE: How to grow podling communities

[Ross Gardler]

Sorry ignore this one, duplicate caused by still sleeping tablet user

Sent from my tablet
On Nov 28, 2012 7:38 AM, "Ross Gardler"  wrote:

> Forgot a few for the list...
>
> Lucy is running a book club - they meet on Google Hangouts and discuss how
> an appropriate book chapter might apply to their project. This was
> recently
> reported in their board report and early feedback is very positive.
>
> OpenOffice are building a "course" for new community members. The goal is
> to
> guide people through the learning process aroun
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: 27 November 2012 17:40
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ross Gardler
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has
> > > to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
> > >
> > > - press
> > > - community events
> > > - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> > > - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> > > - regular releases
> > > - decent website
> > > - tutorials
> > > - screencasts
> > > - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
> > >
> > > Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not
> > > build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short
> > > term, write code. It's a catch-22.
> > >
> > > Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A
> > > single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to
> hurt
> > anyone.
> > > What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the
> > > above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring
> > > potential contributors.
> > >
> > > I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although
> > > one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways
> > > useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the
> > > IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my
> > > opinion.
> > >
> > >
> > This is exactly things that I want to bring up to the podling
> attentions,
> > a list of
> > things that they could do to try to build/increase the community.
> > Once we collect a list of them, we can document it and use it as
> > suggestions
> > for struggling podlings.
> >
> > My main goal is to avoid mentors coming to a podling and telling them its
> > time to retire, but pointing them to resources that can help them get
> out
> > of
> > the retirement situation.
> >
> > The IPMC and ComDev should always be here to help, documenting the
> > things that have worked in the past, and facilitating access to
> resources
> > that
> > can help the podlings.
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>

RE: How to grow podling communities

[Ross Gardler]

Forgot a few for the list...

Lucy is running a book club - they meet on Google Hangouts and discuss how
an appropriate book chapter might apply to their project. This was recently
reported in their board report and early feedback is very positive.

OpenOffice are building a "course" for new community members. The goal is
to
guide people through the learning process aroun

> -Original Message-
> From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2012 17:40
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ross Gardler
> wrote:
>
> > Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has
> > to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
> >
> > - press
> > - community events
> > - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> > - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> > - regular releases
> > - decent website
> > - tutorials
> > - screencasts
> > - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
> >
> > Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not
> > build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short
> > term, write code. It's a catch-22.
> >
> > Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A
> > single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt
> anyone.
> > What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the
> > above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring
> > potential contributors.
> >
> > I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although
> > one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways
> > useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the
> > IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my
> > opinion.
> >
> >
> This is exactly things that I want to bring up to the podling attentions,
> a list of
> things that they could do to try to build/increase the community.
> Once we collect a list of them, we can document it and use it as
> suggestions
> for struggling podlings.
>
> My main goal is to avoid mentors coming to a podling and telling them its
> time to retire, but pointing them to resources that can help them get out
> of
> the retirement situation.
>
> The IPMC and ComDev should always be here to help, documenting the
> things that have worked in the past, and facilitating access to resources
> that
> can help the podlings.
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Eric Yang]

Continue the retirement vote, and see if it passes in IPMC.  If it does, I
will gladly setup shop in github.  If it doesn't, Chukwa community should
prepare for Chukwa 0.6.0 release, and start voting on Chukwa 0.6.0 release,
and follow by vote for graduation.  Content in Chukwa trunk contains a
number of good features and fixes generated by the community.  I really
appreciate the support by Incubator community to make this possible.  Does
this sound like a plan?

regards,
Eric


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

>
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Eric Yang wrote:
>
> > 
>
> The various comparisons are distractions.  Let's focus on Chukwa and what
> can be done.
>
> > If we are going to move forward, more time in incubation is not a
> realistic
> > option.  The only way is vote for graduation and avoid the vicious cycle
> of
> > closing the project review.
>
> If there's an Incubator policy change that I don't know about I'm happy to
> hear it and reconsider my personal opinion.  If someone wants to change
> Incubator policy I'm happy to discuss it.  Can you not see by my message
> below that I am not intransigent but am willing to discuss all manner of
> things?
>
> I would focus more on the Chukwa project and not spend so much time on
> comparing it to other projects nor making ugly innuendoes.  Look around
> you.  You are surrounded by a community who wants to help.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Alan Cabrera 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:16 AM, ant elder wrote:
> >>
> >>> Unless there are compelling reason to stop, i.e continuing breaches of
> >>> basic ASF polices and principles, then where possible letting a
> poddling
> >>> continue incubation or just graduate seems better to me than making
> them
> >> go
> >>> elsewhere. Its not like a small slow problem is chewing up ASF
> resources,
> >>> but i understand not everyone here agrees with my views on that. Wink
> is
> >> an
> >>> example of poddling in similar circumstances and there we are about to
> >> have
> >>> decided that graduation is better than retirement. Perhaps thats a
> better
> >>> approach. I don't recall a graduation recommendation request from the
> >>> Incubator has ever been rejected by the board so perhaps the Incubator
> is
> >>> too conservative with graduation recommendations.
> >>>
> >>> Its interesting comparing Wink and Chukwa. From many perspectives
> Chukwa
> >> is
> >>> much more active than Wink but we're about to graduate Wink and talking
> >>> about retiring this one. I've not yet had a chance to go through all
> the
> >>> Chukwa archives but unless i'm misunderstanding something Chukwa isn't
> >> just
> >>> a lone coder, there have been several committers in the last months and
> >>> while one is doing the majority of the commits many of those are
> actually
> >>> applying patches from other people, so it looks like there are a bunch
> of
> >>> people out there working on the project and we need to find ways of
> >> better
> >>> integrating them into the poddling community.
> >>
> >> This is an interesting line of reasoning worth pursuing, IMO.  If Chukwa
> >> and Wink are actually on a par with each other we should see if it make
> >> sense to apply the same reasoning about Wink to Chukwa.
> >>
> >> Are we implicitly having a policy change with podlings, if so, should we
> >> make it explicit?
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Alan
> >>
> >>
>
>
> -
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>
>

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Eric Yang]

Thank you, Sally.  This information is very helpful.

regards,
Eric

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Sally Khudairi  wrote:

> Thanks, Suresh. Hello Eric, Ross, and IPMC members.
>
> We --ASF Marketing & Publicity-- are happy to work with any (P)PMC on a
> project's publicity once the project has graduated from the Incubator.
>
> We can issue a press release to announce the graduation --similar to [1],
> [2], and [3]. Once you're a TLP, we can also help announce major project
> milestones in a press release [4] or media alert [5] and [6], as well as
> advise on technical fact sheets [7] or "The ASF Asks: Have You Met Apache
> [Projectname]?" -type of "birth announcements" [8] that provide further
> technical details.
>
>
> All official ASF announcements are published on an international news wire
> service, and also posted on the ASF Foundation Blog and @TheASF Twitter
> feed.
>
>
> Whilst projects are prohibited from issuing any formal announcements (over
> a newswire) whilst undergoing incubation, we strongly encourage your
> contributors to blog about the project, as well as publish updates on
> mailing lists, speak at conferences, hold meetups/barcamps/user groups, and
> engage the community in other ways to build interest.
>
> You are more than welcome to request blogging credentials from the ASF
> Infrastructure team to post to https://blogs.apache.org/ --I recommend
> you consider asking that they establish a project-specific sub-directory
> (such as http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/ ) so you have a dedicated space for
> your project.
>
> I also recommend you establish your own Twitter feed for the project and
> use the @TheASF, #Apache, and #OpenSource tags (among others) where
> appropriate --lots of folks follow these and help spread the word.
>
> As for mailing lists, we have lots of technical journalists follow the
> annou...@apache.org list as well as the public Incubator archives (at
> times I receive media queries about projects I wasn't even aware were
> submitted for incubation!)
>
> And I strongly suggest that we lean on friends, employers, users, and
> partners to help spread the word. There's a company that issues a press
> announcement (mostly blogs) with every single release made in the project
> that their products heavily rely on, with formal press releases issued as
> "attaboys" to reinforce the ASF news. That project gains lots of visibility
> through someone else's resources. Similar instances exist with outreach
> events, such as workshops, trainings, and BoFs at conferences.
>
> I *always* push for testimonials, use cases, and highly-visible
> implementations, both in our press releases [9], [10] as well as project
> Websites [11] --as you can imagine, not only does this give members of the
> press/analyst community the answer to "who uses you?", it also proves to
> other possible users that the project is viable, credible, and reliable.
>
> I hope this helps. Feel free to ping me or the team at press@apache.orgif you 
> need anything!
>
> -Sally
>
> [1]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces33
> [2]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces24
> [3]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces23
> [4]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces29
> [5]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces31
> [6]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/media_alert_the_apache_software2
> [7] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/apache_wicket_v6_0_0
> [8] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_asks_have_you1
> [9]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces26
> [10]
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces21
> [11] http://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/PoweredBy
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Suresh Marru 
> >To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >Cc: ASF Marketing & Publicity 
> >Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 11:01
> >Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
> >
> >Apologies for the cross post, but I am including press since Eric has
> some constructive observations here.
> >
> >On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Eric Johnson  wrote:
> >
> >> I'm mostly just a lurker on this list, having thought about bringing a
> project to Apache about 24 months ago[1], realizing we didn't quite have
> the demand/community. Since then I've been lurking, wanting to see
> when/whether it makes sense to attempt it again, reflecting on the state of
> the project I'm working on.
> >>
> >> From where I'm sitting, I think the incubator actually should do much
> more here. Big picture - bunch of developers with some cool code come to
> possible the foremost organization for open source projects. They start
> incubating, and discover that part of their incubation process is to market
> themselve

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Eric Yang wrote:

> 

The various comparisons are distractions.  Let's focus on Chukwa and what can 
be done.

> If we are going to move forward, more time in incubation is not a realistic
> option.  The only way is vote for graduation and avoid the vicious cycle of
> closing the project review.

If there's an Incubator policy change that I don't know about I'm happy to hear 
it and reconsider my personal opinion.  If someone wants to change Incubator 
policy I'm happy to discuss it.  Can you not see by my message below that I am 
not intransigent but am willing to discuss all manner of things?

I would focus more on the Chukwa project and not spend so much time on 
comparing it to other projects nor making ugly innuendoes.  Look around you.  
You are surrounded by a community who wants to help.


Regards,
Alan

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:16 AM, ant elder wrote:
>> 
>>> Unless there are compelling reason to stop, i.e continuing breaches of
>>> basic ASF polices and principles, then where possible letting a poddling
>>> continue incubation or just graduate seems better to me than making them
>> go
>>> elsewhere. Its not like a small slow problem is chewing up ASF resources,
>>> but i understand not everyone here agrees with my views on that. Wink is
>> an
>>> example of poddling in similar circumstances and there we are about to
>> have
>>> decided that graduation is better than retirement. Perhaps thats a better
>>> approach. I don't recall a graduation recommendation request from the
>>> Incubator has ever been rejected by the board so perhaps the Incubator is
>>> too conservative with graduation recommendations.
>>> 
>>> Its interesting comparing Wink and Chukwa. From many perspectives Chukwa
>> is
>>> much more active than Wink but we're about to graduate Wink and talking
>>> about retiring this one. I've not yet had a chance to go through all the
>>> Chukwa archives but unless i'm misunderstanding something Chukwa isn't
>> just
>>> a lone coder, there have been several committers in the last months and
>>> while one is doing the majority of the commits many of those are actually
>>> applying patches from other people, so it looks like there are a bunch of
>>> people out there working on the project and we need to find ways of
>> better
>>> integrating them into the poddling community.
>> 
>> This is an interesting line of reasoning worth pursuing, IMO.  If Chukwa
>> and Wink are actually on a par with each other we should see if it make
>> sense to apply the same reasoning about Wink to Chukwa.
>> 
>> Are we implicitly having a policy change with podlings, if so, should we
>> make it explicit?
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> 
>> 


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Eric Yang]

Hi Suresh,

Anymore time spend in incubator is not productive.  Developers would feel
threaten by the fact that the project is coming to the end and stop
contributing.  I think the only way forward is to vote for graduation or
setup shop on github.  IPMC can make good decisions when they are well
informed, and collective wisdom can decide the proper votes base on facts.
 This will save IPMC and Chukwa PMC time and energy to make best possible
decisions for Chukwa community and let Chukwa community focus on the goal
of it's charter.

regards,
Eric

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 4:36 AM, Suresh Marru  wrote:

> On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
>
> > Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model
> to
> > metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> > pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
> > this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
> > contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
> > pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
> > tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the
> software
> > cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
> > software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
> > the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
> > develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
> > and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
> > flourish.
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> Its good to see Jukka and Ant stepping up as mentors, may be that will
> give you Chukwa one more chance. From browsing through the private list and
> the general list, I see lots of philosophical arguments and how you will
> bring in your patches now that legal review at your employer is over.
> Ofcourse you mention new volunteers too. But so far I haven't seen an
> answer from you or other Chukwa PPMC "what have you done previously to grow
> the community, what did not work and what is the change in plan now"? I see
> multiple variants of this question has been asked quite a few times in the
> last couple of days and I am eager to see an answer from the Chukwa PPMC.
>
> Suresh
>
>
> > Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need
> a
> > new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to
> be
> > the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for
> another
> > 6 months.
> >
> > regards,
> > Eric
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
> > bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting  >
> >> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera 
> >> wrote:
>  As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation
> seven
>  months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even
> >> added
>  a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse
> >> the project
>  with more energy.
> >>>
> >>> That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
> >>> clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
> >>> telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
> >>> ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
> >>> attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
> >>> attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
> >>> doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.
> >>>
> >>> If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
> >>> community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
> >>> 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
> >>> have too many cycles to spend on the project.
> >>>
> >>> Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
> >>> keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:
> >>>
> >>> a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become
> >>> more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
> >>> sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
> >>> recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
> >>> to measure the expected increase in activity?
> >>>
> >>> b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
> >>> concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
> >>> contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
> >>> better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
> >>> Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
> >>> improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
> >>> venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
> >>> more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Eric Yang]

Hi Alan,

In Wink, you voted +1, and in Chukwa, you voted -1.  While the status are
similar between Chukwa and Wink, but what is the logic behind your votes?
 In addition, Chukwa and Kafka are similar, and some Kafka design are
borrowed from Chukwa.  Does your relationship with Kafka influence your
judgement being bias toward Chukwa?

You called me a lone developer, while the jira list showed there are
several others contributing as well.  There are people submitting patches
and open jira for discussions.

You volunteered to work as mentor for Chukwa, but we only hear from you 4
times while being Chukwa mentor:

1. March 23, we welcome you to become Chukwa mentor.  On the same day, you
ask Chukwa to be retired.
2. June Report, Chris reviewed report, you gave a +1.
3. September 9, you said "thank you" to Bernd for follow up on granting new
committers access.
4. Nov 16, you start on the private list on the same thread about retiring
Chukwa.

I am sorry, but I may be blunt.  I think your action is harmful to Chukwa
community rather than helping the community.

In the Chukwa private mailing list, I also expressed my limitation to be
contributing to Chukwa while I am working through logistics with my
employer to get approval.  While I did not write new code for Chukwa for
the past half year, Chukwa continue to receive patches from the following
individuals:

Noel Duffy
Jie Huang
Sourygna Luangsay
Abhijit Dhar
Saisai Shao
Ivy Tang
Prakhar Srivastava
Eric Speck

Some patches are committed by Ari Rabkin.  Contributions after 0.5 release
can be tracked in CHANGES.txt.  Chukwa is truly running as an open Apache
project where patches are reviewed and discussed.

Chukwa is used by Netflix, IBM, Intel, and several companies.  If you
search on LinkedIn, number of people that has Chukwa on their resume grown
from 30 people in January to 55 now.  The information are the same
information that I provided on chukwa-private mailing list.

Here is the quote from Chris:

"Eric, you recommend graduating Chukwa to be a TLP based on its
activity relative to other incubator projects, engagement from
independent contributors, adoption and investment in commercial
offerings, and indirect measures of a growing interest in the project.
Is that a fair summary?"

While Chukwa community is low key on participate political votes because
the same rehash of closing the community has been on the focus since the
original incubation proposal was written.

If we are going to move forward, more time in incubation is not a realistic
option.  The only way is vote for graduation and avoid the vicious cycle of
closing the project review.

regards,
Eric

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

>
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:16 AM, ant elder wrote:
>
> > Unless there are compelling reason to stop, i.e continuing breaches of
> > basic ASF polices and principles, then where possible letting a poddling
> > continue incubation or just graduate seems better to me than making them
> go
> > elsewhere. Its not like a small slow problem is chewing up ASF resources,
> > but i understand not everyone here agrees with my views on that. Wink is
> an
> > example of poddling in similar circumstances and there we are about to
> have
> > decided that graduation is better than retirement. Perhaps thats a better
> > approach. I don't recall a graduation recommendation request from the
> > Incubator has ever been rejected by the board so perhaps the Incubator is
> > too conservative with graduation recommendations.
> >
> > Its interesting comparing Wink and Chukwa. From many perspectives Chukwa
> is
> > much more active than Wink but we're about to graduate Wink and talking
> > about retiring this one. I've not yet had a chance to go through all the
> > Chukwa archives but unless i'm misunderstanding something Chukwa isn't
> just
> > a lone coder, there have been several committers in the last months and
> > while one is doing the majority of the commits many of those are actually
> > applying patches from other people, so it looks like there are a bunch of
> > people out there working on the project and we need to find ways of
> better
> > integrating them into the poddling community.
>
> This is an interesting line of reasoning worth pursuing, IMO.  If Chukwa
> and Wink are actually on a par with each other we should see if it make
> sense to apply the same reasoning about Wink to Chukwa.
>
> Are we implicitly having a policy change with podlings, if so, should we
> make it explicit?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>

Re: Mentor needed for Hadoop Development Tools

[Suresh Marru]

Thanks Chris, realized I will be in good company which added to my motivation 
:) 

Hi Adam,

I added myself to the wiki.

Looking forward for the project to take life,
Suresh

On Nov 27, 2012, at 8:43 PM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" 
 wrote:

> +1 great to hear that you are on board, Suresh.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Adam Berry wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Fantastic, thanks for the offer.
>> 
>> Could you add your information to the proposal wiki, or go ahead and send it 
>> to me and I'll add it.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Adam
>> 
>> On Nov 27, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Suresh Marru wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Adam,
>>> 
>>> I am in general interested on the distributed application debugging. I can 
>>> see some overlap with Airavata project as well. I think I can help out and 
>>> volunteer to mentor the project.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Suresh
>>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Adam Berry  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi IPMC members,
 
 we find ourselves in need of an additional mentor for this project, which 
 we are currently in the process of on boarding.
 
 You can see the proposal on the wiki at 
 http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HadoopDevelopmentToolsProposal.
 
 Cheers,
 Adam
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: Mentor needed for Hadoop Development Tools

[Mattmann, Chris A (388J)]

+1 great to hear that you are on board, Suresh.

Cheers,
Chris

On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Adam Berry wrote:

> 
> Fantastic, thanks for the offer.
> 
> Could you add your information to the proposal wiki, or go ahead and send it 
> to me and I'll add it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam
> 
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Suresh Marru wrote:
> 
>> Hi Adam,
>> 
>> I am in general interested on the distributed application debugging. I can 
>> see some overlap with Airavata project as well. I think I can help out and 
>> volunteer to mentor the project.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Suresh
>> 
>> On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Adam Berry  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi IPMC members,
>>> 
>>> we find ourselves in need of an additional mentor for this project, which 
>>> we are currently in the process of on boarding.
>>> 
>>> You can see the proposal on the wiki at 
>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HadoopDevelopmentToolsProposal.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adam
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Mentor needed for Hadoop Development Tools

[Adam Berry]

Fantastic, thanks for the offer.

Could you add your information to the proposal wiki, or go ahead and send it to 
me and I'll add it.

Cheers,
Adam

On Nov 27, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Suresh Marru wrote:

> Hi Adam,
> 
> I am in general interested on the distributed application debugging. I can 
> see some overlap with Airavata project as well. I think I can help out and 
> volunteer to mentor the project.
> 
> Cheers,
> Suresh
> 
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Adam Berry  wrote:
> 
>> Hi IPMC members,
>> 
>> we find ourselves in need of an additional mentor for this project, which we 
>> are currently in the process of on boarding.
>> 
>> You can see the proposal on the wiki at 
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HadoopDevelopmentToolsProposal.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Adam
> 
> 
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Re: How to grow podling communities

[Sally Khudairi]

Thanks, Suresh. Hello Eric, Ross, and IPMC members.

We --ASF Marketing & Publicity-- are happy to work with any (P)PMC on a 
project's publicity once the project has graduated from the Incubator.

We can issue a press release to announce the graduation --similar to [1], [2], 
and [3]. Once you're a TLP, we can also help announce major project milestones 
in a press release [4] or media alert [5] and [6], as well as advise on 
technical fact sheets [7] or "The ASF Asks: Have You Met Apache [Projectname]?" 
-type of "birth announcements" [8] that provide further technical details.


All official ASF announcements are published on an international news wire 
service, and also posted on the ASF Foundation Blog and @TheASF Twitter feed.


Whilst projects are prohibited from issuing any formal announcements (over a 
newswire) whilst undergoing incubation, we strongly encourage your contributors 
to blog about the project, as well as publish updates on mailing lists, speak 
at conferences, hold meetups/barcamps/user groups, and engage the community in 
other ways to build interest.

You are more than welcome to request blogging credentials from the ASF 
Infrastructure team to post to https://blogs.apache.org/ --I recommend you 
consider asking that they establish a project-specific sub-directory (such as 
http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/ ) so you have a dedicated space for your project.

I also recommend you establish your own Twitter feed for the project and use 
the @TheASF, #Apache, and #OpenSource tags (among others) where appropriate 
--lots of folks follow these and help spread the word.

As for mailing lists, we have lots of technical journalists follow the 
annou...@apache.org list as well as the public Incubator archives (at times I 
receive media queries about projects I wasn't even aware were submitted for 
incubation!)

And I strongly suggest that we lean on friends, employers, users, and partners 
to help spread the word. There's a company that issues a press announcement 
(mostly blogs) with every single release made in the project that their 
products heavily rely on, with formal press releases issued as "attaboys" to 
reinforce the ASF news. That project gains lots of visibility through someone 
else's resources. Similar instances exist with outreach events, such as 
workshops, trainings, and BoFs at conferences.

I *always* push for testimonials, use cases, and highly-visible 
implementations, both in our press releases [9], [10] as well as project 
Websites [11] --as you can imagine, not only does this give members of the 
press/analyst community the answer to "who uses you?", it also proves to other 
possible users that the project is viable, credible, and reliable.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ping me or the team at pr...@apache.org if you 
need anything!

-Sally

[1] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces33
[2] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces24
[3] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces23
[4] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces29
[5] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces31
[6] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/media_alert_the_apache_software2
[7] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/apache_wicket_v6_0_0
[8] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_asks_have_you1
[9] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces26
[10] 
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_apache_software_foundation_announces21
[11] http://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/PoweredBy



>
> From: Suresh Marru 
>To: general@incubator.apache.org 
>Cc: ASF Marketing & Publicity  
>Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 11:01
>Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
> 
>Apologies for the cross post, but I am including press since Eric has some 
>constructive observations here. 
>
>On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Eric Johnson  wrote:
>
>> I'm mostly just a lurker on this list, having thought about bringing a 
>> project to Apache about 24 months ago[1], realizing we didn't quite have the 
>> demand/community. Since then I've been lurking, wanting to see when/whether 
>> it makes sense to attempt it again, reflecting on the state of the project 
>> I'm working on.
>> 
>> From where I'm sitting, I think the incubator actually should do much more 
>> here. Big picture - bunch of developers with some cool code come to possible 
>> the foremost organization for open source projects. They start incubating, 
>> and discover that part of their incubation process is to market themselves 
>> to grow their community, and yet not much help arrives to do that. On top of 
>> that, (a) the developers likely have weak marketing skills, (b) don't have a 
>> budget for marketing & travel, (c) aren't given any tips from others more 
>

RE: How to grow podling communities

[Ross Gardler]

Forgot a couple for the list...

Lucy is running a book club - they meet on Google Hangouts and discuss how an 
appropriate book chapter might apply to their project. This was recently 
reported in their board report and early feedback is very positive.

OpenOffice are building a "course" for new community members. The goal is to 
guide people through the learning process around contribution with regular 
check-ins with the community lists where the community works hard to 
congratulate and welcome.

Ross



> -Original Message-
> From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2012 17:40
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ross Gardler
> wrote:
> 
> > Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has
> > to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
> >
> > - press
> > - community events
> > - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> > - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> > - regular releases
> > - decent website
> > - tutorials
> > - screencasts
> > - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
> >
> > Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not
> > build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short
> > term, write code. It's a catch-22.
> >
> > Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A
> > single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt
> anyone.
> > What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the
> > above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring
> > potential contributors.
> >
> > I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although
> > one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways
> > useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the
> > IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my 
> > opinion.
> >
> >
> This is exactly things that I want to bring up to the podling attentions, a 
> list of
> things that they could do to try to build/increase the community.
> Once we collect a list of them, we can document it and use it as suggestions
> for struggling podlings.
> 
> My main goal is to avoid mentors coming to a podling and telling them its
> time to retire, but pointing them to resources that can help them get out of
> the retirement situation.
> 
> The IPMC and ComDev should always be here to help, documenting the
> things that have worked in the past, and facilitating access to resources that
> can help the podlings.
> 
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/


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Re: Mentor needed for Hadoop Development Tools

[Suresh Marru]

Hi Adam,

I am in general interested on the distributed application debugging. I can see 
some overlap with Airavata project as well. I think I can help out and 
volunteer to mentor the project.

Cheers,
Suresh
 
On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Adam Berry  wrote:

> Hi IPMC members,
> 
> we find ourselves in need of an additional mentor for this project, which we 
> are currently in the process of on boarding.
> 
> You can see the proposal on the wiki at 
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HadoopDevelopmentToolsProposal.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam


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Re: How to grow podling communities

[Luciano Resende]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

> I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend
> to get the message out there.  What channels are relevant for the project?
>  I guess what are their marketing plans.
>
> Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new
> podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their
> community.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
Podlings that are not even yet in Incubation might not know "the Apache
Way" and how to grow communities the way we want (e.g. they might come and
say we are going to use PRs for every release or something, or have weekly
phone calls, which are things that might conflict with "The Apache Way").

What might work better is to have mentors advertising new ideas that has
been working on the podlings that they oversee, and we collect these
advices for future reference. BTW, I have seen Ross starting to do that,
and some ideas are really interesting.

-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Luciano Resende]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:

>
> My thought here is that ComDev is a source of useful advice, not a
> group of people to do the work.
>
>
+1, not only ComDev, but actually IPMC as well, as it's actually the PMC
that has the most experience with regards podlings and what have worked or
not in the past.

-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Mentor needed for Hadoop Development Tools

[Adam Berry]

Hi IPMC members,

we find ourselves in need of an additional mentor for this project, which we 
are currently in the process of on boarding.

You can see the proposal on the wiki at 
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HadoopDevelopmentToolsProposal.

Cheers,
Adam

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Luciano Resende]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to
> be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
>
> - press
> - community events
> - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> - regular releases
> - decent website
> - tutorials
> - screencasts
> - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
>
> Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not
> build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term,
> write code. It's a catch-22.
>
> Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single
> developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone.
> What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above
> community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential
> contributors.
>
> I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one
> could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to
> mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this
> either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion.
>
>
This is exactly things that I want to bring up to the podling attentions, a
list of things that they could do to try to build/increase the community.
Once we collect a list of them, we can document it and use it as
suggestions for struggling podlings.

My main goal is to avoid mentors coming to a podling and telling them its
time to retire, but pointing them to resources that can help them get out
of the retirement situation.

The IPMC and ComDev should always be here to help, documenting the things
that have worked in the past, and facilitating access to resources that can
help the podlings.

-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

[RESULT][VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex Podling from Apache Incubator

[Alex Harui]

The IPMC has approved the proposal to recommend the resolution to the Board.

Results: 8  "+1" votes, no "0" votes, no "-1" votes.

+1 Bertrand Delacretaz (IPMC)
+1 Greg Reddin (IPMC)
+1 Dave Fisher (IPMC)
+1 Chris A. Mattman (IPMC)
+1 Alan Cabrera (IPMC)
+1 Suresh Marru (IPMC)
+1 Christian Grobmeier (IPMC)
+1 Benson Marguiles (IPMC)

I will send an email to the Board asking to include the resolution in the
agenda for the next Board meeting.

Vote Thread Message ID: ccd30e35.48e5a%aha...@adobe.com

Thanks everyone,
-- 
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui


==
WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
open-source software, for distribution at no charge to
the public, related to development of expressive web
applications that deploy to all major browsers, desktops and
devices (including smartphones, tablets and tv).

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Flex Project",
be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
Foundation; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the Apache Flex Project be and hereby is
responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
related to development of expressive web applications that
deploy to all major browsers, desktops and devices (including
smartphones, tablets and tv); and be it further

RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Flex" be
and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
of the Apache Flex Project, and to have primary responsibility
for management of the projects within the scope of
responsibility of the Apache Flex Project; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
Apache Flex Project:

Alex Harui 
Carol Frampton 
Christophe Herreman 
Chuck Mastrandrea 
Dave Fisher 
Erik de Bruin 
Espen Skogen 
Gordon Smith 
Greg Reddin 
Igor Costa 
Iwo Banas 
Jeff Tapper 
Jeffry Houser 
Jeremy Tellier 
Jonathon Campos 
Jun Heider 
Justin Mclean 
Kevin Korngut 
Leif Wells 
Martin Heidegger 
Michael Jordan 
Michael Labriola 
Michael Schmalle 
Michelle Yaiser 
Nicholas Kwaitkowski 
Omar Gonzalez 
OmPrakash Muppirala 
Peter Elst 
Peter Ent 
Rui Silva 
Ryan Frishberg 
Sebastian Mohr 
Scott Delamater 
Tink 
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Alex Harui
be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Flex, to
serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
or until a successor is appointed; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Flex PMC be and hereby is
tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
encourage open development and increased participation in the
Apache Flex Project; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the Apache Flex Project be and hereby
is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
Incubator Flex podling; and be it further

RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
Incubator Flex podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
Project are hereafter discharged.


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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Luciano Resende]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Luciano Resende wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, November 25, 2012, Alan Cabrera wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>>
>> Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote
>> on confirming this decision.
>>
>>   [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
>>   [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>>
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
> +1
>
>
>
After all the points raised on this vote thread, I am removing my +1.

-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Suresh Marru]

Apologies for the cross post, but I am including press since Eric has some 
constructive observations here. 

On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Eric Johnson  wrote:

> I'm mostly just a lurker on this list, having thought about bringing a 
> project to Apache about 24 months ago[1], realizing we didn't quite have the 
> demand/community. Since then I've been lurking, wanting to see when/whether 
> it makes sense to attempt it again, reflecting on the state of the project 
> I'm working on.
> 
> From where I'm sitting, I think the incubator actually should do much more 
> here. Big picture - bunch of developers with some cool code come to possible 
> the foremost organization for open source projects. They start incubating, 
> and discover that part of their incubation process is to market themselves to 
> grow their community, and yet not much help arrives to do that. On top of 
> that, (a) the developers likely have weak marketing skills, (b) don't have a 
> budget for marketing & travel, (c) aren't given any tips from others more 
> experienced about what kinds of resources they should scare up and which 
> efforts they should focus on first.
> 
> I see the incubator process ought to play three roles:
> 
> a) teaching the Apache rules/community/approach
> 
> b) teaching optimal open source project hygiene (which includes items listed 
> below, such as quick turn-around on patch reviews, decent website, tutorials, 
> public mailing list discussion) - and actually include "grading" on the 
> quality of those items before graduation.
> 
> c) assistance and reporting on "marketing". What the heck does this mean?
> 
> I think the incubator currently has parts (a) & (b) down. Not so much for ©

Eric, I sure do appreciate your ideas below, but don't forget incubator helps 
in making legally complaint releases. Releases distinguish incubator from 
apache labs. And making frequent releases and announcing them is one the best 
marketing technique which sells open source software. In that sense,  of course 
the developers have great skill at this aspect of marketing :)

Suresh  

> For example:
> 
> What does it mean to do "press"? What would you include in a press release? 
> Where would you send it?
> 
> Apache has so many projects, shouldn't it do a monthly "highlight on _" 
> report, calling out a top level project, and a project being incubated? 
> Automatic publicity! Expect incubating projects to participate in one of 
> those "highlight" reports before graduating
> 
> What community events should a team focus on? What have teams done in the 
> past? What has worked? What hasn't worked? Do we know why it worked or didn't 
> work? Is this information being recorded anywhere?
> 
> Encourage teams to shamelessly request "reference" users that they can post 
> to their websites. Solicit "endorsements" from "neutral" third parties.
> 
> I've seen ideas tossed around on the incubator list, but generally nothing 
> concrete, so it feels to me like the projects are left drifting in the wind, 
> trying to figure this stuff out for themselves.
> 
> That's silly, because Apache has such huge name recognition in the software 
> world, it should be *easy* to draw attention to incubating projects. Except 
> that at the moment, the best way to follow what's incubating seems to be 
> hopping on this general list, where you will see when projects submit 
> proposals, see them voted on, and see when they get in trouble. That's a lot 
> of noise for a small amount of signal. Capturing that signal publicly might 
> help bring visibility to the projects to follow.
> 
> For example, why doesn't the incubator have a twitter feed where the status 
> of incubating projects gets reported? Something that everyone can follow, and 
> discover when new projects are proposed, when projects are at risk, and when 
> they think about graduating?
> 
> Recognizing that everyone here has limited resources, I don't think what's 
> needed here is much more than a little bit of capturing existing known data 
> on a wiki page or three, perhaps a twitter feed, and some small amount of 
> nudging by mentors. At least as a start!
> 
> Eric.
> 
> [1] https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/gXMLProposal
> 
> On 11/26/12 8:03 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote:
>> I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend to 
>> get the message out there.  What channels are relevant for the project?  I 
>> guess what are their marketing plans.
>> 
>> Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new 
>> podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their community.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> 
>> On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> 
>>> Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to be 
>>> someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
>>> 
>>> - press
>>> - community events
>>> - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
>>> - fast turnar

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:16 AM, ant elder wrote:

> Unless there are compelling reason to stop, i.e continuing breaches of
> basic ASF polices and principles, then where possible letting a poddling
> continue incubation or just graduate seems better to me than making them go
> elsewhere. Its not like a small slow problem is chewing up ASF resources,
> but i understand not everyone here agrees with my views on that. Wink is an
> example of poddling in similar circumstances and there we are about to have
> decided that graduation is better than retirement. Perhaps thats a better
> approach. I don't recall a graduation recommendation request from the
> Incubator has ever been rejected by the board so perhaps the Incubator is
> too conservative with graduation recommendations.
> 
> Its interesting comparing Wink and Chukwa. From many perspectives Chukwa is
> much more active than Wink but we're about to graduate Wink and talking
> about retiring this one. I've not yet had a chance to go through all the
> Chukwa archives but unless i'm misunderstanding something Chukwa isn't just
> a lone coder, there have been several committers in the last months and
> while one is doing the majority of the commits many of those are actually
> applying patches from other people, so it looks like there are a bunch of
> people out there working on the project and we need to find ways of better
> integrating them into the poddling community.

This is an interesting line of reasoning worth pursuing, IMO.  If Chukwa and 
Wink are actually on a par with each other we should see if it make sense to 
apply the same reasoning about Wink to Chukwa.

Are we implicitly having a policy change with podlings, if so, should we make 
it explicit?


Regards,
Alan


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>> ...URLs? My brain's too small to remember all these discussions ;-)
>> 
>> It's on the private Chukwa list.  How can I get these URLs?...
> 
> Message-ID is fine in this case - sorry I thought you were referring
> to public discussions.


There is a private conversation at 3/23/12

"Time to put closure on this incubation"

There is a subsequent private conversation at 11/11/12

"Time to put closure on this incubation"

I also forked the voting thread to a discussion as well to explain to the 
public community the reasons for the vote.



Regards,
Alan


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[ant elder]

Unless there are compelling reason to stop, i.e continuing breaches of
basic ASF polices and principles, then where possible letting a poddling
continue incubation or just graduate seems better to me than making them go
elsewhere. Its not like a small slow problem is chewing up ASF resources,
but i understand not everyone here agrees with my views on that. Wink is an
example of poddling in similar circumstances and there we are about to have
decided that graduation is better than retirement. Perhaps thats a better
approach. I don't recall a graduation recommendation request from the
Incubator has ever been rejected by the board so perhaps the Incubator is
too conservative with graduation recommendations.

Its interesting comparing Wink and Chukwa. From many perspectives Chukwa is
much more active than Wink but we're about to graduate Wink and talking
about retiring this one. I've not yet had a chance to go through all the
Chukwa archives but unless i'm misunderstanding something Chukwa isn't just
a lone coder, there have been several committers in the last months and
while one is doing the majority of the commits many of those are actually
applying patches from other people, so it looks like there are a bunch of
people out there working on the project and we need to find ways of better
integrating them into the poddling community.

   ...ant

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> As chair of the IPMC, I do not think that it is appropriate to have a
> vote to continue incubation for six months, with no consideration of
> success in between. I think that it would be reasonable to put aside
> the vote to retire, and expect a plan, with contributions from more
> than one non-mentor, in the next month, and some progress after that.
> I also think it would be within the mission and discretion of the
> committee to go ahead and vote to retire.
>
> If it's really true that recently resolved legal muddles have been the
> one barrier to success, then the removal of that barrier should
> unleash some fairly substantial results.
>
> To address the more philosophical discussion here:
>
> The incubator is a structure set up to bootstrap communities. It's not
> the only possible structure of this kind, and it's not necessarily the
> best one. Like everything else at a *volunteer* organization, it is
> constrained by the amount of volunteer labor available. In a perfect
> world, yes, the Foundation might operate a sort of
> home-for-small-projects. Such a structure would allow arbitrarily
> small projects to benefit from Foundation infrastructure and legal
> benefits.
>
> However, this isn't a perfect world, and we are indeed very
> constrained by the volunteer labor, and so we aren't providing a home
> for years on end. There are other ways for this project to succeed
> other than as an Apache TLP. You could find a related, existing,
> project, and merge into them. You could set up shop on github.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Suresh Marru  wrote:
> > On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
> >
> >> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model
> to
> >> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> >> pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed
> in
> >> this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
> >> contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
> >> pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
> >> tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the
> software
> >> cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
> >> software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
> >> the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
> >> develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
> >> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
> >> flourish.
> >
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > Its good to see Jukka and Ant stepping up as mentors, may be that will
> give you Chukwa one more chance. From browsing through the private list and
> the general list, I see lots of philosophical arguments and how you will
> bring in your patches now that legal review at your employer is over.
> Ofcourse you mention new volunteers too. But so far I haven't seen an
> answer from you or other Chukwa PPMC "what have you done previously to grow
> the community, what did not work and what is the change in plan now"? I see
> multiple variants of this question has been asked quite a few times in the
> last couple of days and I am eager to see an answer from the Chukwa PPMC.
> >
> > Suresh
> >
> >
> >> Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will
> need a
> >> new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer
> to be
> >> the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for
> another
> >> 

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:58 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> What is described above is exactly what mentors should be doing in an
> informal way. What Alan says happened below is what is proposed above.
> 
> I've not been following the project and can't agree or disagree with
> Alan's interpretation of events. However, I also don't feel well enough
> informed to form a valuable opinion. This prompts the question have
> those demanding an alternative action to that one recommended by an
> active mentor done sufficient background work to be able to stand
> behind their recommendation?
> 
> On the other hand, if people want to step up to bring new blood to the
> mentorship role and Alan wanted to resign as a mentor rather than flog
> a dead horse
> I'd fully understand. I support Alans observations elsewhere that
> mentors taking on responsibility for community development is
> inappropriate, it needs to be the project community, but new mentoring
> might provide new ideas.

I don't intend to step down.  I don't quit because things become difficult, 
frustrating, and prior efforts are unrecognized.

New ideas from fresh mentors would be fantastic.  However, I will not support 
throwing in fresh cheerleaders into an empty stadium where the football players 
have no time to play.

For me, I need to see the Chukwa PPMC members take a personal inventory as to 
what they can honestly commit to doing.  If that commitment is different than 
what was discussed last week then I would be absolutely delighted to have an 
extension of six months.


Regards,
Alan

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Benson Margulies]

Alan,

I get that. I'm supposed to be more the admin support here than the
autocrat. I'm trying to help the IPMC find a consensus position --
within the parameters of the IPMC's mission. I have no problem with
that position being retirement. I am prepared for it to be a brief
extension, and I am completely opposed to six months of carte blanche.

--benson


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> Benson,
>
> I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement was 
> raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.  Consensus was garnered.  We even added 
> committers with the hopes of infusing new energy into the project.
>
> Sometimes, you just can't get ultimate consensus on retirement and you have 
> to resolve issues with a vote.  By *all* of the PPMC members admission, they 
> have no time to work on this project.  Eric simply wanted to wait a while and 
> hope for some miracle to happen.
>
> If Eric and other PPMC members had the time to do the work, we wouldn't be 
> where we are today.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> One interesting point about consensus decision-making process is the
>> need to define the starting point. The process assumes that there is a
>> clear 'status quo', and that a consensus is required to change it.
>> This may not always be the appropriate way to think about retiring a
>> podling, but it's clearly the way we're thinking about this one.
>>
>> Does anyone else feel that this could have benefitted from a [DISCUSS]
>> before the [VOTE].
>>
>> At the bottom line, if there are new mentors to be fully responsible,
>> I think it's reasonable to continue; however, I don't want to have
>> exactly the same conversation in N months. Would the new mentors like
>> to propose a time limit, and is the group willing to subscribe to the
>> notion that, if after that time, the new mentors have the same report
>> as the old mentors, we're at the end?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Bernd Fondermann
>>  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
 I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
 resolve this.

 I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
 so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
 another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
 what have we got to lose with trying that?
>>>
>>> "forced"? No, not really. Chukwa reported low activity and discussions
>>> about closing down for months to the IPMC.
>>>
>>> Only because the IPMC as a whole is getting involved only *now*
>>> doesn't make it more likely for the project to change.
>>>
>>> However, if the IPMC reaches consensus to continue Chukwa, I'm in.
>>> What will happen is that attention falls back to chukwa-dev and we're
>>> where we were one week ago.
>>>
>>> But again, I'm ready to continue.
>>>
>>>  Bernd
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> ...URLs? My brain's too small to remember all these discussions ;-)
>
> It's on the private Chukwa list.  How can I get these URLs?...

Message-ID is fine in this case - sorry I thought you were referring
to public discussions.

-Bertrand

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RE: What constitute a successful project?

[Ross Gardler]

> -Original Message-
> From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2012 14:30
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: What constitute a successful project?
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Bernd Fondermann <
> > bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >> This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
> >> Give it yet more time.
> >> Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
> >> another few months" when it failed for the past years.
> >> Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time
> >
> >
> > Thinking in general not on this specific case, may be we can define a
> > formal warning for retirement for podlings where the PPMC has to come
> > up with a concrete plans for the next six months and some measurable
> goals.
> > Once the formal warning is issued, it can be processed by the clutch
> > [1] and also show the elapsed time. In 3 months, 6 months, 9 months
> > mentors and IPMC can decide whether to remove the warning or not.
> > After one year, if there is no significant change and the goals are
> > not archived, IPMC can easily decide in favor of retirement because
> > they know the history of the issue. At the same time, every three
> > months until retirement PPMC will be notified that they are still
> > under the warning (I think this is somewhat happening even now, as
> > I've seen from Jukka's replies to the board reports), so they will
> > have reasonable time to take action. Of course, we don't need a
> > process like this in the case of the PPMC unanimously agree for
retirement.
>
> The first sign of a broken organization is when it decides to add more
process
> to "fix" things.

Whilst "broken organisation" might be a bit strong I do agree with the
general observation here.

What is described above is exactly what mentors should be doing in an
informal way. What Alan says happened below is what is proposed above.

I've not been following the project and can't agree or disagree with
Alan's interpretation of events. However, I also don't feel well enough
informed to form a valuable opinion. This prompts the question have
those demanding an alternative action to that one recommended by an
active mentor done sufficient background work to be able to stand
behind their recommendation?

On the other hand, if people want to step up to bring new blood to the
mentorship role and Alan wanted to resign as a mentor rather than flog
a dead horse
I'd fully understand. I support Alans observations elsewhere that
mentors taking on responsibility for community development is
inappropriate, it needs to be the project community, but new mentoring
might provide new ideas.

Ross


>
> I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement
was
> raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.  Consensus was garnered.  We even
> added committers with the hopes of infusing new energy into the project.
>
> It had no effect.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya
 wrote:
> Thinking in general not on this specific case, may be we can define a
> formal warning for retirement for podlings where the PPMC has to come up
> with a concrete plans for the next six months and some measurable goals.

A podling, regardless of its state, should always have such a concrete
plan - the plan towards graduation.

If a podling doesn't have such a (at least unwritten) plan, the
mentors and the broader IPMC should remind the project about it. Such
reminders are a big part of how we've been able to push so many
podlings forward during this year.

If a podling can't or won't come up with a credible graduation plan
(be it because of lack of activity or other reasons like licensing
issues), its time to retire the podling.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> ...I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement 
>> was raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.
>> Consensus was garnered.  We even added committers with the hopes of infusing 
>> new energy into the project...
> 
> URLs? My brain's too small to remember all these discussions ;-)

It's on the private Chukwa list.  How can I get these URLs?


Regards,
Alan



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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 4:13 AM, Bernd Fondermann wrote:

>> I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
>> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
>> flourish.
> 
> This sounds like you're frustrated with your mentors. I'm sorry for
> that and take part of the responsibility of Chukwa's failure. But
> really only a part.

I take an oblique offense to this statement.  It is the responsibility of the 
project's community to get things off the ground.  Mentors can make the extra 
effort, to be sure.  But we have to be careful about becoming a crutch.

Sometimes bad things happen to good projects.  Eric has been heroic in trying 
to keep things afloat but sometimes that dog won't hunt.  

We as a IPMC have to be prepared for the time when a podling just won't get off 
the ground and everyone but a lone developer sees it.


Regards,
Alan

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

Benson,

I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement was 
raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.  Consensus was garnered.  We even added 
committers with the hopes of infusing new energy into the project.

Sometimes, you just can't get ultimate consensus on retirement and you have to 
resolve issues with a vote.  By *all* of the PPMC members admission, they have 
no time to work on this project.  Eric simply wanted to wait a while and hope 
for some miracle to happen.

If Eric and other PPMC members had the time to do the work, we wouldn't be 
where we are today.



Regards,
Alan

On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> One interesting point about consensus decision-making process is the
> need to define the starting point. The process assumes that there is a
> clear 'status quo', and that a consensus is required to change it.
> This may not always be the appropriate way to think about retiring a
> podling, but it's clearly the way we're thinking about this one.
> 
> Does anyone else feel that this could have benefitted from a [DISCUSS]
> before the [VOTE].
> 
> At the bottom line, if there are new mentors to be fully responsible,
> I think it's reasonable to continue; however, I don't want to have
> exactly the same conversation in N months. Would the new mentors like
> to propose a time limit, and is the group willing to subscribe to the
> notion that, if after that time, the new mentors have the same report
> as the old mentors, we're at the end?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Bernd Fondermann
>  wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
>>> I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
>>> resolve this.
>>> 
>>> I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
>>> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
>>> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
>>> what have we got to lose with trying that?
>> 
>> "forced"? No, not really. Chukwa reported low activity and discussions
>> about closing down for months to the IPMC.
>> 
>> Only because the IPMC as a whole is getting involved only *now*
>> doesn't make it more likely for the project to change.
>> 
>> However, if the IPMC reaches consensus to continue Chukwa, I'm in.
>> What will happen is that attention falls back to chukwa-dev and we're
>> where we were one week ago.
>> 
>> But again, I'm ready to continue.
>> 
>>  Bernd
>> 
>> -
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>> 
> 
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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Bernd Fondermann wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
>> I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
>> resolve this.
>> 
>> I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
>> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
>> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
>> what have we got to lose with trying that?
> 
> "forced"? No, not really. Chukwa reported low activity and discussions
> about closing down for months to the IPMC.
> 
> Only because the IPMC as a whole is getting involved only *now*
> doesn't make it more likely for the project to change.
> 
> However, if the IPMC reaches consensus to continue Chukwa, I'm in.
> What will happen is that attention falls back to chukwa-dev and we're
> where we were one week ago.
> 
> But again, I'm ready to continue.

My -1 vote stands until the Chukwa PPMC comes up with a plan and commits to 
executing it.  Mentors can advise but ultimately we're vetting the Chukwa 
community, not the mentors.

If we get this plan and commitment then I'm definitely happy to have it 
continue.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:57 AM, ant elder wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>  wrote:
>>> If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
>>> another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
>>> with that.
>> 
>> As usual a -1 should be backed by a credible alternative. I'm willing
>> to step in, with the caveat that my time for this will drop quite a
>> bit in about a month.
>> 
>> BR,
>> 
>> Jukka Zitting
>> 
>> 
> Great, so thats two of us for some new blood and to take the burden off the
> old mentors who've already had to spend a long time on it. How about we use
> this first month while you have some time to come up with a credible plan
> of what to do.

I would like to see the Chukwa PPMC come up with a plan and commit to executing 
it.  Having mentors come up with a plan and executing on it only vets the 
mentors.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> ...I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement was 
> raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.
> Consensus was garnered.  We even added committers with the hopes of infusing 
> new energy into the project...

URLs? My brain's too small to remember all these discussions ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Bernd Fondermann <
> bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting 
>> wrote:
>> This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
>> Give it yet more time.
>> Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
>> another few months" when it failed for the past years.
>> Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time
> 
> 
> Thinking in general not on this specific case, may be we can define a
> formal warning for retirement for podlings where the PPMC has to come up
> with a concrete plans for the next six months and some measurable goals.
> Once the formal warning is issued, it can be processed by the clutch [1]
> and also show the elapsed time. In 3 months, 6 months, 9 months mentors and
> IPMC can decide whether to remove the warning or not. After one year, if
> there is no significant change and the goals are not archived, IPMC can
> easily decide in favor of retirement because they know the history of the
> issue. At the same time, every three months until retirement PPMC will be
> notified that they are still under the warning (I think this is somewhat
> happening even now, as I've seen from Jukka's replies to the board
> reports), so they will have reasonable time to take action. Of course, we
> don't need a process like this in the case of the PPMC unanimously agree
> for retirement.

The first sign of a broken organization is when it decides to add more process 
to "fix" things.

I will remind the IPMC that seven months ago the specter of retirement was 
raised.  A lengthy discussion ensued.  Consensus was garnered.  We even added 
committers with the hopes of infusing new energy into the project.

It had no effect.



Regards,
Alan


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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> While I think that it's laudable for IPMC members to step in and offer to 
> mentor, we should remember the danger of becoming a crutch...

Definitely - the goal of an incubation mentor should be to become
redundant, as quickly as possible ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:53 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>  wrote:
>> If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
>> another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
>> with that.
> 
> As usual a -1 should be backed by a credible alternative. I'm willing
> to step in, with the caveat that my time for this will drop quite a
> bit in about a month.

While I think that it's laudable for IPMC members to step in and offer to 
mentor, we should remember the danger of becoming a crutch.  If the mentors do 
all the work then all we're really doing is vetting the mentors and not the 
community itself.  Maybe I am simply stating a trite statement but I felt it 
needed to be said.  


Regards,
Alan


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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
>> ...I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
>> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
>> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
>> what have we got to lose with trying that?...
> 
> If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
> another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
> with that.

In general I would have no problem with that as well so long as Eric and other 
PPMC members commit to doing the work necessary to try to get the project off 
the ground.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello guys,
I want to understand Chukwa community building strategy better. Are
there any insights why companies which use Hadoop (in Moscow those
include Deutche Bank, Yandex, Rambler and Microsoft) do not crowd
around or stay in line to get a chance to use Chukwa?

--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://dataved.ru/
+7 916 562 8095


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:55 PM, ant elder  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Benson Margulies 
> wrote:
>
>> One interesting point about consensus decision-making process is the
>> need to define the starting point. The process assumes that there is a
>> clear 'status quo', and that a consensus is required to change it.
>> This may not always be the appropriate way to think about retiring a
>> podling, but it's clearly the way we're thinking about this one.
>>
>> Does anyone else feel that this could have benefitted from a [DISCUSS]
>> before the [VOTE].
>>
>> At the bottom line, if there are new mentors to be fully responsible,
>> I think it's reasonable to continue; however, I don't want to have
>> exactly the same conversation in N months. Would the new mentors like
>> to propose a time limit, and is the group willing to subscribe to the
>> notion that, if after that time, the new mentors have the same report
>> as the old mentors, we're at the end?
>>
>>
> Could we maybe include a time limit next month with the credible plan to
> give new mentors a little time to get up to speed with the project?
>
>...ant

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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 11:55 PM, ant elder wrote:

> I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
> resolve this.
> 
> I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
> what have we got to lose with trying that?

Ant,

We did try to garner consensus.  Many, times.

Sometimes, you just can't get it and you have to resolve issues with a vote.  
By *all* of the PPMC members admission, they have no time to work on this 
project.  Eric simply wanted to wait a while and hope for some miracle to 
happen.

If Eric and other PPMC members had the time to do the work, we wouldn't be 
where we are today.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:08 AM, Eric Yang wrote:

> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
> this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
> contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
> pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
> tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the software
> cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
> software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
> the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
> develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
> flourish.

The ASF is not about code.  It's about community.  You cannot have a community 
of one.  There are many high quality software projects that are being developed 
by lone coders.  You'll find them on GitHub, SourceForge, etc.

> Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need a
> new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to be
> the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for another
> 6 months.


Sourygna needs to step up and volunteer on his own.  But, to my mind, we have 
more than enough cheerleaders.  We need coders.  JMHO.


Regards,
Alan


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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

The more the merrier!  :)


Regards,
Alan

On Nov 26, 2012, at 11:50 PM, ant elder wrote:

> Great to hear, one month seemed too short to accomplish so much. I'd be
> happy to volunteer as another mentor if some fresh eyes will help.
> 
>   ...ant
> 
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:32 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> 
>> If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it
>> another six months rather than just one month.  I don't think that a lot
>> can reasonably be accomplished in one month.   I would also like to see
>> some milestones set in those six months.  If the milestones are met or not
>> met then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious.
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> 
>> On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>> 
>>> +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give
>> them
>>> another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the
>> opportunity
>>> to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that
>> would mean
>>> 3 active peeps in the community).
>>> 
>>> If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera 
>> wrote:
> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's
>> not much
> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with
>> the hopes
> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on
>> how to
> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the
>> time to
> work much on the project.
 
 That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
 community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
 provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
 report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
 an alternative implementation. :-)
 
 As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
 provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
 idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
 months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
 easy one to make.
 
 Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
 discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
 the community did start working through all the issues and have now
 produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
 graduation even though the project is still far below its past
 activity.
 
 [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22
 
 BR,
 
 Jukka Zitting
 
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator

[Benson Margulies]

+1, and I think we can close it. As I see it, a hand with three
mentors beats 5 other members :-)

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Christian Grobmeier
 wrote:
> +1 (binding)
>
> have fun!
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Alex Harui  wrote:
>> This is a call for vote to graduate the Apache Flex podling from Apache
>> Incubator.
>>
>> Apache Flex entered the Incubator in December of 2011. We have made
>> significant progress with the project since moving over to Apache. We have
>> 34 committers listed on our status page at [1] including 6 accepted after
>> the podling was formed. Another 5 committers were recently approved after we
>> started the vote to graduate and are not yet listed on the status page.
>>
>> We completed two releases (Apache Flex 4.8.0-incubating and Apache Flex SDK
>> Installer 1.0.9-incubating).
>>
>> The community of Apache Flex is active, healthy and growing and has
>> demonstrated the ability to self-govern using accepted Apache practices.
>>
>> The Apache Flex community voted overwhelmingly to graduate [2]. You can view
>> the discussion at [3].
>>
>> We have prepared and reviewed our charter. You can view it at [4].
>>
>> Please cast your votes:
>>
>> [ ] +1 Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
>> [ ] +0 Indifferent to the graduation status of Apache Flex podling
>> [ ] -1 Reject graduation of Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
>> because ...
>>
>> This vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex
>> [2] http://markmail.org/message/ps3rjgv76vlw4sh5
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/ej4z47rr3ba532uv
>> [4] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Graduation+Resolution
>>
>> --
>> Alex Harui
>> Flex SDK Team
>> Adobe Systems, Inc.
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
> https://www.timeandbill.de
>
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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Benson Margulies]

As chair of the IPMC, I do not think that it is appropriate to have a
vote to continue incubation for six months, with no consideration of
success in between. I think that it would be reasonable to put aside
the vote to retire, and expect a plan, with contributions from more
than one non-mentor, in the next month, and some progress after that.
I also think it would be within the mission and discretion of the
committee to go ahead and vote to retire.

If it's really true that recently resolved legal muddles have been the
one barrier to success, then the removal of that barrier should
unleash some fairly substantial results.

To address the more philosophical discussion here:

The incubator is a structure set up to bootstrap communities. It's not
the only possible structure of this kind, and it's not necessarily the
best one. Like everything else at a *volunteer* organization, it is
constrained by the amount of volunteer labor available. In a perfect
world, yes, the Foundation might operate a sort of
home-for-small-projects. Such a structure would allow arbitrarily
small projects to benefit from Foundation infrastructure and legal
benefits.

However, this isn't a perfect world, and we are indeed very
constrained by the volunteer labor, and so we aren't providing a home
for years on end. There are other ways for this project to succeed
other than as an Apache TLP. You could find a related, existing,
project, and merge into them. You could set up shop on github.



On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Suresh Marru  wrote:
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
>
>> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
>> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
>> pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
>> this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
>> contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
>> pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
>> tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the software
>> cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
>> software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
>> the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
>> develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
>> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
>> flourish.
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> Its good to see Jukka and Ant stepping up as mentors, may be that will give 
> you Chukwa one more chance. From browsing through the private list and the 
> general list, I see lots of philosophical arguments and how you will bring in 
> your patches now that legal review at your employer is over. Ofcourse you 
> mention new volunteers too. But so far I haven't seen an answer from you or 
> other Chukwa PPMC "what have you done previously to grow the community, what 
> did not work and what is the change in plan now"? I see multiple variants of 
> this question has been asked quite a few times in the last couple of days and 
> I am eager to see an answer from the Chukwa PPMC.
>
> Suresh
>
>
>> Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need a
>> new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to be
>> the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for another
>> 6 months.
>>
>> regards,
>> Eric
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
>> bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting 
>>> wrote:
 Hi,

 On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera 
>>> wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even
>>> added
> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse
>>> the project
> with more energy.

 That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
 clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
 telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
 ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
 attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
 attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
 doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.

 If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
 community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
 have too many cycles to spend on the project.

 Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
 keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:

 a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to bec

Re: Welcome Craig McClanahan in his continued membership in the IPMC

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Welcome back Craig ;)

Regards
JB

On 11/27/2012 02:44 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:

Craig is returning to active duty as a mentor. He never actually quite
managed to leave this PMC, but anyhow we're happy to see him around.

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--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
jbono...@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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Re: Welcome Andrew Hart to the IPMC

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Welcome aboard Andrew.

Regards
JB

On 11/27/2012 02:41 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:

Andrew Hart has joined the Incubator PMC.

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jbono...@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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Welcome Craig McClanahan in his continued membership in the IPMC

[Benson Margulies]

Craig is returning to active duty as a mentor. He never actually quite
managed to leave this PMC, but anyhow we're happy to see him around.

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Welcome Andrew Hart to the IPMC

[Benson Margulies]

Andrew Hart has joined the Incubator PMC.

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Suresh Marru]

On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:

> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
> this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
> contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
> pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
> tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the software
> cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
> software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
> the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
> develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
> flourish.

Hi Eric,

Its good to see Jukka and Ant stepping up as mentors, may be that will give you 
Chukwa one more chance. From browsing through the private list and the general 
list, I see lots of philosophical arguments and how you will bring in your 
patches now that legal review at your employer is over. Ofcourse you mention 
new volunteers too. But so far I haven't seen an answer from you or other 
Chukwa PPMC "what have you done previously to grow the community, what did not 
work and what is the change in plan now"? I see multiple variants of this 
question has been asked quite a few times in the last couple of days and I am 
eager to see an answer from the Chukwa PPMC.

Suresh


> Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need a
> new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to be
> the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for another
> 6 months.
> 
> regards,
> Eric
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
> bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting 
>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera 
>> wrote:
 As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
 months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even
>> added
 a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse
>> the project
 with more energy.
>>> 
>>> That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
>>> clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
>>> telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
>>> ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
>>> attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
>>> attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
>>> doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.
>>> 
>>> If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
>>> community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
>>> 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
>>> have too many cycles to spend on the project.
>>> 
>>> Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
>>> keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:
>>> 
>>> a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become
>>> more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
>>> sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
>>> recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
>>> to measure the expected increase in activity?
>>> 
>>> b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
>>> concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
>>> contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
>>> better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
>>> Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
>>> improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
>>> venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
>>> more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see
>>> also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether
>>> such efforts are working?
>>> 
>>> Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy
>>> (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going
>>> through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the
>>> incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should
>>> start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community
>>> activity and diversity.
>> 
>> This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
>> Give it yet more time.
>> Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
>> another few months" when it failed for the past years.
>> Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time?
>> T

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Bernd Fondermann]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
> this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
> contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
> pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
> tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the software
> cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.

We don't only apply metrics, otherwise this decision would be very
easy, and we'd not have that discussion right now.
One other aspect for example is that there's no Chukwa release for a
long time. There are a lot of hard and soft facts I personally take
into account for any vote.

> Good
> software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
> the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
> develop from hobby projects.

As long as these few indivduals are actually there, nobody would close
a project.

> I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
> and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
> flourish.

This sounds like you're frustrated with your mentors. I'm sorry for
that and take part of the responsibility of Chukwa's failure. But
really only a part.

> Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need a
> new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to be
> the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for another
> 6 months.

Everyone is welcome to contribute, vote (even if non-binding) and take
part in discussion. (Hey, people, if you're out there, post to the
list!)
Not much of this happened over the last months.

  Bernd

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Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator

[Christian Grobmeier]

+1 (binding)

have fun!

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Alex Harui  wrote:
> This is a call for vote to graduate the Apache Flex podling from Apache
> Incubator.
>
> Apache Flex entered the Incubator in December of 2011. We have made
> significant progress with the project since moving over to Apache. We have
> 34 committers listed on our status page at [1] including 6 accepted after
> the podling was formed. Another 5 committers were recently approved after we
> started the vote to graduate and are not yet listed on the status page.
>
> We completed two releases (Apache Flex 4.8.0-incubating and Apache Flex SDK
> Installer 1.0.9-incubating).
>
> The community of Apache Flex is active, healthy and growing and has
> demonstrated the ability to self-govern using accepted Apache practices.
>
> The Apache Flex community voted overwhelmingly to graduate [2]. You can view
> the discussion at [3].
>
> We have prepared and reviewed our charter. You can view it at [4].
>
> Please cast your votes:
>
> [ ] +1 Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
> [ ] +0 Indifferent to the graduation status of Apache Flex podling
> [ ] -1 Reject graduation of Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
> because ...
>
> This vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex
> [2] http://markmail.org/message/ps3rjgv76vlw4sh5
> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/ej4z47rr3ba532uv
> [4] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Graduation+Resolution
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
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>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de

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Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator

[Suresh Marru]

+ 1 (binding).

All the best as TLP,
Suresh

On Nov 22, 2012, at 5:25 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Alex Harui  wrote:
>> ...This is a call for vote to graduate the Apache Flex podling from Apache
>> Incubator...
> 
> We need to see the proposed resolution here, I've copied it from
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Graduation+Resolution
> :
> 
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
> Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
> Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
> open-source software, for distribution at no charge to
> the public, related to development of expressive web
> applications that deploy to all major browsers, desktops and
> devices (including smartphones, tablets and tv).
> 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Flex Project",
> be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
> Foundation; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Flex Project be and hereby is
> responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
> related to development of expressive web applications that
> deploy to all major browsers, desktops and devices (including
> smartphones, tablets and tv); and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Flex" be
> and hereby is created, the person holding such office to
> serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair
> of the Apache Flex Project, and to have primary responsibility
> for management of the projects within the scope of
> responsibility of the Apache Flex Project; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> Apache Flex Project:
> 
> Alex Harui 
> Carol Frampton 
> Christophe Herreman 
> Chuck Mastrandrea 
> Dave Fisher 
> Erik de Bruin 
> Espen Skogen 
> Gordon Smith 
> Greg Reddin 
> Igor Costa 
> Iwo Banas 
> Jeff Tapper 
> Jeffry Houser 
> Jeremy Tellier 
> Jonathon Campos 
> Jun Heider 
> Justin Mclean 
> Kevin Korngut 
> Leif Wells 
> Martin Heidegger 
> Michael Jordan 
> Michael Labriola 
> Michael Schmalle 
> Michelle Yaiser 
> Nicholas Kwaitkowski 
> Omar Gonzalez 
> OmPrakash Muppirala 
> Peter Elst 
> Peter Ent 
> Rui Silva 
> Ryan Frishberg 
> Sebastian Mohr 
> Scott Delamater 
> Tink 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Alex Harui
> be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Flex, to
> serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification,
> or until a successor is appointed; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Flex PMC be and hereby is
> tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
> encourage open development and increased participation in the
> Apache Flex Project; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Flex Project be and hereby
> is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
> Incubator Flex podling; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
> Incubator Flex podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> Project are hereafter discharged.
> 
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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[ant elder]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> One interesting point about consensus decision-making process is the
> need to define the starting point. The process assumes that there is a
> clear 'status quo', and that a consensus is required to change it.
> This may not always be the appropriate way to think about retiring a
> podling, but it's clearly the way we're thinking about this one.
>
> Does anyone else feel that this could have benefitted from a [DISCUSS]
> before the [VOTE].
>
> At the bottom line, if there are new mentors to be fully responsible,
> I think it's reasonable to continue; however, I don't want to have
> exactly the same conversation in N months. Would the new mentors like
> to propose a time limit, and is the group willing to subscribe to the
> notion that, if after that time, the new mentors have the same report
> as the old mentors, we're at the end?
>
>
Could we maybe include a time limit next month with the credible plan to
give new mentors a little time to get up to speed with the project?

   ...ant

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Benson Margulies]

One interesting point about consensus decision-making process is the
need to define the starting point. The process assumes that there is a
clear 'status quo', and that a consensus is required to change it.
This may not always be the appropriate way to think about retiring a
podling, but it's clearly the way we're thinking about this one.

Does anyone else feel that this could have benefitted from a [DISCUSS]
before the [VOTE].

At the bottom line, if there are new mentors to be fully responsible,
I think it's reasonable to continue; however, I don't want to have
exactly the same conversation in N months. Would the new mentors like
to propose a time limit, and is the group willing to subscribe to the
notion that, if after that time, the new mentors have the same report
as the old mentors, we're at the end?



On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Bernd Fondermann
 wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
>> I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
>> resolve this.
>>
>> I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
>> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
>> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
>> what have we got to lose with trying that?
>
> "forced"? No, not really. Chukwa reported low activity and discussions
> about closing down for months to the IPMC.
>
> Only because the IPMC as a whole is getting involved only *now*
> doesn't make it more likely for the project to change.
>
> However, if the IPMC reaches consensus to continue Chukwa, I'm in.
> What will happen is that attention falls back to chukwa-dev and we're
> where we were one week ago.
>
> But again, I'm ready to continue.
>
>   Bernd
>
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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bernd Fondermann]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
> I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
> resolve this.
>
> I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
> what have we got to lose with trying that?

"forced"? No, not really. Chukwa reported low activity and discussions
about closing down for months to the IPMC.

Only because the IPMC as a whole is getting involved only *now*
doesn't make it more likely for the project to change.

However, if the IPMC reaches consensus to continue Chukwa, I'm in.
What will happen is that attention falls back to chukwa-dev and we're
where we were one week ago.

But again, I'm ready to continue.

  Bernd

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Re: How to grow podling communities

[Yegor Kozlov]

Google Summer of Code is an excellent opportunity to attract fresh
blood to your project and it is a good practice for a podling to
participate.
GSoC students are potential committers, there will be a splash of
discussion on your @dev list, the podling will be promoted, etc.  -
actually all techniques that Ross mentioned apply to GSoC.

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Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[ant elder]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>  wrote:
> > If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
> > another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
> > with that.
>
> As usual a -1 should be backed by a credible alternative. I'm willing
> to step in, with the caveat that my time for this will drop quite a
> bit in about a month.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
>
Great, so thats two of us for some new blood and to take the burden off the
old mentors who've already had to spend a long time on it. How about we use
this first month while you have some time to come up with a credible plan
of what to do.

   ...ant

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
> If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
> another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
> with that.

As usual a -1 should be backed by a credible alternative. I'm willing
to step in, with the caveat that my time for this will drop quite a
bit in about a month.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Nandana Mihindukulasooriya]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Bernd Fondermann <
bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting 
> wrote:
> This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
> Give it yet more time.
> Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
> another few months" when it failed for the past years.
> Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time


Thinking in general not on this specific case, may be we can define a
formal warning for retirement for podlings where the PPMC has to come up
with a concrete plans for the next six months and some measurable goals.
Once the formal warning is issued, it can be processed by the clutch [1]
and also show the elapsed time. In 3 months, 6 months, 9 months mentors and
IPMC can decide whether to remove the warning or not. After one year, if
there is no significant change and the goals are not archived, IPMC can
easily decide in favor of retirement because they know the history of the
issue. At the same time, every three months until retirement PPMC will be
notified that they are still under the warning (I think this is somewhat
happening even now, as I've seen from Jukka's replies to the board
reports), so they will have reasonable time to take action. Of course, we
don't need a process like this in the case of the PPMC unanimously agree
for retirement.

Best Regards,
Nandana

[1] - http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:55 AM, ant elder  wrote:
> ...I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
> so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
> another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
> what have we got to lose with trying that?...

If people who -1 the retirement agree to mentor Chukwa to give it
another chance, like you seem to be ready to do, I have no problem
with that.

-Bertrand

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Re: How to grow podling communities

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Benson Margulies  wrote:
> ...growing communities is really, really, hard,
> and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does,
> it might be the comdev committee...

I agree with this, the incubator is busy enough helping podlings
become top-level projects (or fail gracefully). It's good to have
reports on things that worked (on blogs, comdev website etc.) but I
agree with not burdening the incubator PMC with more than that.

> ...I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to
> continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the
> available supervisory/mentor effort...

Another way to better use our limited mentoring resources is to
graduate podlings quickly, when that's possible, and I think we're on
a good track towards improving this.

-Bertrand

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Jukka Zitting  wrote:
> Chukwa has soon spent four years incubating, with the activity level
> dropping off significantly after the first year or two.

Sorry, correction: Chukwa has been incubating since July 2010 after
being a part of Hadoop earlier. Got confused by the longer mailing
list and commit histories. The basic premise still stands, Chukwa was
a lot more active in 2009/10 than it is now.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
> Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
> metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
> pre-defeined time limit.

Chukwa has soon spent four years incubating, with the activity level
dropping off significantly after the first year or two. We have quite
a few examples of projects where such history predicts the eventual
dissolution of the entire community. There are however also a few
cases where the community has been able to revive itself.

The question here isn't about exact metrics or some predefined level
of activity that the project should be able to reach, but rather the
trajectory you're on. Is there a reasonable expectation that Chukwa
can reverse the downward trend in activity? What are you going to do
to make that happen?

As discussed, you already tried a few things to revive the community
earlier on. What makes this time different? Why would another say six
months help if the previous ones didn't?

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Eric Yang]

Apache is a non-profit organization.  If we restrict our thinking model to
metrics of how many developers, and how many patches are committed in
pre-defeined time limit.  There is no software that is gong to succeed in
this evaluation other than commercial software.  Paid developers are
contributing to the software that meeting cooperate interests at rapid
pace, and smaller companies will work together until cooperate interests
tear apart the software, or the funding eventually dry up and the software
cease to exist, and the community will eventually fall apart.  Good
software usually comes down to a few individuals who work hard to enable
the community to flourish.  Many of the good software takes decades to
develop from hobby projects.  I will accept the voting result from IPMC,
and I wish IPMC would use better human sense to enable future project to
flourish.

Chris Douglas resigned from mentor position, therefore, Chukwa will need a
new mentor, and one of Chukwa contributor Sourygna Luangsay volunteer to be
the motivator for Chukwa development if Chukwa is voted to stay for another
6 months.

regards,
Eric

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann <
bernd.fonderm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting 
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera 
> wrote:
> >> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
> >> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even
> added
> >> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse
> the project
> >> with more energy.
> >
> > That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
> > clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
> > telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
> > ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
> > attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
> > attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
> > doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.
> >
> > If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
> > community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
> > 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
> > have too many cycles to spend on the project.
> >
> > Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
> > keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:
> >
> > a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become
> > more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
> > sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
> > recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
> > to measure the expected increase in activity?
> >
> > b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
> > concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
> > contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
> > better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
> > Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
> > improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
> > venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
> > more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see
> > also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether
> > such efforts are working?
> >
> > Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy
> > (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going
> > through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the
> > incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should
> > start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community
> > activity and diversity.
>
> This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
> Give it yet more time.
> Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
> another few months" when it failed for the past years.
> Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time?
> The legal issues only made it more clear to me that and why this
> Incubation failed.
>
> The much I'd love to see Chukwa fly, this is getting ridiculous.
>
>   Bernd
>
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