Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:19:57 -0500 Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be) the USSR. Found a few sites for ya: http://tctubes.com/about-us.aspx http://electrontubestore.com/index.php?main_page=contact_us http://www.tubesandmore.com/customer_service/about_us I found that by typing 6gh8a in google. That's a old tube that I used to have to replace pretty regular. I think it was used in the audio section and would usually work fine when cold but get a bit weird when it gets good and hot. They got replaced a LOT back then. Anyway, two are in the USA but one is in Canada. Cool finds, thanks! Maybe I should go-ahead and build an amp and be done with it. No more mucking about putting it off :-) Maybe you got more time than you think. ;-) I do think the old tubes have better sound tho. I can't explain it but they just sound different. You're not imagining things. Valves do sound better and you can measure it and see why. Valves and transistors both distort sound to some degree as all electronic systems will. The difference is in how the distortion happens. Semiconductors are prone to even-harmonic distortion, so if you have a 100Hz sine wave, it will produce distortion at 100hz, 400Hz, 1600Hz and so on. Valves produce odd-harmonic distortion, at 200Hz, 800Hz and so on. If you are now thinking Fourier and wondering if transistors try to make square waves, you are bang on the money because that is exactly what is happening. To the human ear, a square wave sounds like gross horrendous distortion, even at very small percentages. At it's worst, this is clipping and happens because a transistor will happily pass current until the voltage drop over it hits the supply voltage and it clips. Bingo, one square(ish) wave and horrible sound. Valves deal with this in a more analog fashion, as the voltage drop nears the supply voltage it passes less and less current, rounding the waveform and never actually clipping it. Which sounds far more pleasant to the human ear. Modern circuitry tries to avoid the transistor problem using soft clipping and other tricks - basically trying to make the transistor behave in the same way a valve oes. This does make a huge difference, but you can never completely eliminate the device's inherent characteristics, it is what it is and this leopard doesn't change it's spots. I think that is why some places still have tubes. Some people just like them more. I think they make great heaters. lol Dale :-) :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Alan McKinnon wrote: I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be) the USSR. Found a few sites for ya: http://tctubes.com/about-us.aspx http://electrontubestore.com/index.php?main_page=contact_us http://www.tubesandmore.com/customer_service/about_us I found that by typing 6gh8a in google. That's a old tube that I used to have to replace pretty regular. I think it was used in the audio section and would usually work fine when cold but get a bit weird when it gets good and hot. They got replaced a LOT back then. Anyway, two are in the USA but one is in Canada. Maybe you got more time than you think. ;-) I do think the old tubes have better sound tho. I can't explain it but they just sound different. I think that is why some places still have tubes. Some people just like them more. I think they make great heaters. lol Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be) the USSR. There's a huge market for valves for guitar amps. I think supply is safe enough.
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago talking about some HUGE finds. He said that we, the USA, are sitting on some of the largest oil fields. Here is one article I found but not sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this article is a few months old. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1 Quoting from that: It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico, North America http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am erica is the new Middle East, Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report. Note it said fastest growing producer. You have to find it and be able to get it up before you can produce it. Yea, one day we will run out but that's a good long ways off. We could get hit by some asteroid or something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it, including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any chance? They are drilling for oil like crazy up there. That is just one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently. There are plenty of other finds. I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'. Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used to it. and here: http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too. Science already says it will run out of fuel one day. And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago talking about some HUGE finds. He said that we, the USA, are sitting on some of the largest oil fields. Here is one article I found but not sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this article is a few months old. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1 Quoting from that: It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico, North America http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am erica is the new Middle East, Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report. Note it said fastest growing producer. You have to find it and be able to get it up before you can produce it. Yea, one day we will run out but that's a good long ways off. We could get hit by some asteroid or something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it, including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any chance? They are drilling for oil like crazy up there. That is just one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently. There are plenty of other finds. I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'. Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used to it. and here: http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did it anyway. I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all sort of myths about it. I have not seen proof that is in drinking water. Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it for years. It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange. There is always something in water. It's just what water does. That is why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking. By the way, fracking has been around for something like 60 years. Not all the oil that has been found recently requires fracking either. So, don't just point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad. The website you linked to is against oil from my google search. It would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or whatever they call it this week. Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too. Science already says it will run out of fuel one day. And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that. Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too? Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all. Better get your I'm scared of everything hat on. Who knows it is a couple decades? That was the thinking years ago BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil. Careful calling someone stupid. It could come back and name calling on the list is not a good thing. You should know better. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago talking about some HUGE finds. He said that we, the USA, are sitting on some of the largest oil fields. Here is one article I found but not sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this article is a few months old. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1 Quoting from that: It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico, North America http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am erica is the new Middle East, Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report. Note it said fastest growing producer. You have to find it and be able to get it up before you can produce it. Yea, one day we will run out but that's a good long ways off. We could get hit by some asteroid or something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it, including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any chance? They are drilling for oil like crazy up there. That is just one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently. There are plenty of other finds. I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'. Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used to it. and here: http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did it anyway. I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all sort of myths about it. I have not seen proof that is in drinking water. Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it for years. It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange. There is always something in water. It's just what water does. That is why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking. By the way, fracking has been around for something like 60 years. Not all the oil that has been found recently requires fracking either. So, don't just point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad. The website you linked to is against oil from my google search. It would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or whatever they call it this week. Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too. Science already says it will run out of fuel one day. And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that. Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too? Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all. Better get your I'm scared of everything hat on. Who knows it is a couple decades? That was the thinking years ago BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil. Careful calling someone stupid. It could come back and name calling on the list is not a good thing. You should know better. Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, it's just that these aren't issues that can generally be resolved, and it's certainly not something that comes anywhere close to being on-topic here. Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what with my reputation to uphold and all Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps? I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H... -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what with my reputation to uphold and all Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps? I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H... I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :) -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Michael Mol wrote: On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago talking about some HUGE finds. He said that we, the USA, are sitting on some of the largest oil fields. Here is one article I found but not sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this article is a few months old. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1 Quoting from that: It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico, North America http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am erica is the new Middle East, Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report. Note it said fastest growing producer. You have to find it and be able to get it up before you can produce it. Yea, one day we will run out but that's a good long ways off. We could get hit by some asteroid or something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it, including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any chance? They are drilling for oil like crazy up there. That is just one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently. There are plenty of other finds. I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'. Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used to it. and here: http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did it anyway. I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all sort of myths about it. I have not seen proof that is in drinking water. Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it for years. It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange. There is always something in water. It's just what water does. That is why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking. By the way, fracking has been around for something like 60 years. Not all the oil that has been found recently requires fracking either. So, don't just point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad. The website you linked to is against oil from my google search. It would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or whatever they call it this week. Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too. Science already says it will run out of fuel one day. And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that. Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too? Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all. Better get your I'm scared of everything hat on. Who knows it is a couple decades? That was the thinking years ago BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil. Careful calling someone stupid. It could come back and name calling on the list is not a good thing. You should know better. Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, it's just that these aren't issues that can generally be resolved, and it's certainly not something that comes anywhere close to being on-topic here. Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... Kewl. I have built amps from scratch but not sure I would right now. I haven't touched a transistor in a good long while. Heck, I had to search for the class of amps to make sure I was speaking with some degree of certainty. I have built a couple amps that were tube types. I can certainly tell a difference between tube and
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:52:17 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what with my reputation to uphold and all Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps? I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H... I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :) IIRC this was back in the late 70s or early 80s. Someone at Hitachi figured that amps (like code) spent 90% of their time doing 10% of the effort. If you had a 100W amp, it wasn't trying to drive 100W into the speakers all the time - only when the input signal was large enough. And yet, the power source for the output stages was permanently running at 70V or so (that's what it takes to get 100W into speaker coils back then). A transistor isn't a perfect isolator when biased off, so some of that voltage gets dropped somewhere (across the output transistors) and the result is a lot of wastage. wikipedia has a quite good summary of the usual classes - A, B, AB, C D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_C But, Class H. A Hitachi engineer had a brilliant idea: Run the damn thing class A all the time (for the audio quality) but at around 24V. Heat generated is minimal. The power supply had a fancy voltage tripler circuit and when the input warranted it, the supply voltage would (very rapidly) switch over to the full 70V and the amp would deliver the full rated output. There was fancy circuitry in place to avoid distortion at the switch on point of course, but that is a bit OT. An interesting take on the problem. Mechanical engineers do this all the time with engines - turbos only kick in when you need the power boost they provide, the rest of the time the motor is in regular mode. I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be) the USSR. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Modern version http://www.babeland.com/hitachi-magic-wand/d/2487 Sent from my iPhone On Sep 21, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:52:17 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being polite, Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what with my reputation to uphold and all Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly fascinating... That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps? I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H... I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :) IIRC this was back in the late 70s or early 80s. Someone at Hitachi figured that amps (like code) spent 90% of their time doing 10% of the effort. If you had a 100W amp, it wasn't trying to drive 100W into the speakers all the time - only when the input signal was large enough. And yet, the power source for the output stages was permanently running at 70V or so (that's what it takes to get 100W into speaker coils back then). A transistor isn't a perfect isolator when biased off, so some of that voltage gets dropped somewhere (across the output transistors) and the result is a lot of wastage. wikipedia has a quite good summary of the usual classes - A, B, AB, C D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_C But, Class H. A Hitachi engineer had a brilliant idea: Run the damn thing class A all the time (for the audio quality) but at around 24V. Heat generated is minimal. The power supply had a fancy voltage tripler circuit and when the input warranted it, the supply voltage would (very rapidly) switch over to the full 70V and the amp would deliver the full rated output. There was fancy circuitry in place to avoid distortion at the switch on point of course, but that is a bit OT. An interesting take on the problem. Mechanical engineers do this all the time with engines - turbos only kick in when you need the power boost they provide, the rest of the time the motor is in regular mode. I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be) the USSR. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. Apartment living maybe? I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40 LED TV, 22 LED monitor, 16 LCD monitor, an xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1 desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs. It's a lot of power, sure. And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool pump uses.. All a matter of perspective I suppose :-) My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan. It's perspective. It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter of perspective :-) raf
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. Apartment living maybe? I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40 LED TV, 22 LED monitor, 16 LCD monitor, an xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1 desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs. It's a lot of power, sure. And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool pump uses.. All a matter of perspective I suppose :-) My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan. It's perspective. It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter of perspective :-) raf And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. Everything is a limited resource including sunlight. If we are going to live thinking the end is tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living. Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago. 'We shouldn't eat to live, we should live to eat.' It was something like that. I think I got it right since I didn't exactly write it down. They were talking about food but still. If you live, you have to use something. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Wednesday 19 September 2012 01:23:54 Dale wrote: 96 watts for standby is excessive for sure. What the heck is that thing doing with all that power? O_O In a word: wasting it! I think it must be a class-A amplifier, or whatever the modern equivalent is. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Peter Humphrey wrote: On Wednesday 19 September 2012 01:23:54 Dale wrote: 96 watts for standby is excessive for sure. What the heck is that thing doing with all that power? O_O In a word: wasting it! I think it must be a class-A amplifier, or whatever the modern equivalent is. I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp. A class A amp pulls the same amount of power regardless of whether there is any sound but has very little distortion. A class B amp pulls only what is getting pushed to the speakers, less the drivers of course. Class B amps have a lot of distortion at low sound levels, that wasn't to good. So, someone came up with a cross between the two and got rid of the distortion but saved power at the same time. Most sound amps are Class AB but where in that cross depends on the maker. If you are really interested, here is a linky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_B_and_AB I have built a few of these things. Getting that cross point can be fun. To much, smoke. To little, sounds like crap. lol 96 watts on standby. That doesn't sound like standing by as much as it is ready to make noise. lol Is it old or new? I can see a few watts even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby. :/ Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:57:17 +0100 Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby. Now that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though. Holy sweet mother of god. 96W??? What you got in that thing? Thermionic tubes (aka valves)? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Wednesday 19 September 2012 10:28:44 Dale wrote: I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp. I bet you're right, now that you remind me of what I used to know. 96 watts on standby. That doesn't sound like standing by as much as it is ready to make noise. lol Is it old or new? I can see a few watts even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby. :/ It does make a nice little background space heater. It's a Linn Kinos controller and Chakra power amplifier, about 7 years old. In fact the Kinos was so new that I was offered a pre-production model. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Wednesday 19 September 2012 12:45:42 Alan McKinnon wrote: Holy sweet mother of god. 96W??? What you got in that thing? Thermionic tubes (aka valves)? I was surprised too, so I took care to ensure I was only measuring that beast, and not something else in the house as well. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. Apartment living maybe? I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40 LED TV, 22 LED monitor, 16 LCD monitor, an xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1 desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs. It's a lot of power, sure. And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool pump uses.. All a matter of perspective I suppose :-) My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan. It's perspective. It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter of perspective :-) raf And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Everything is a limited resource including sunlight. If we are going to live thinking the end is tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living. then turn off your computer. Have everything constantly on IS living like there is no tomorrow. If you want a tomorrow, start energy saving a bit. Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago. 'We shouldn't eat to live, we should live to eat.' It was something like that. I think I got it right since I didn't exactly write it down. They were talking about food but still. If you live, you have to use something. and because of some stupid, unrelated quote it is ok to be wasteful? You love quotes? Here is one: Waste not, want not. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Peter Humphrey wrote: On Wednesday 19 September 2012 10:28:44 Dale wrote: I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp. I bet you're right, now that you remind me of what I used to know. I don't know its power output but I bet it sounds good at low sound levels. On the class AB scale, it is more into class A than most. 96 watts on standby. That doesn't sound like standing by as much as it is ready to make noise. lol Is it old or new? I can see a few watts even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby. :/ It does make a nice little background space heater. It's a Linn Kinos controller and Chakra power amplifier, about 7 years old. In fact the Kinos was so new that I was offered a pre-production model. I'm going to have to google on those. I have not heard of those. Way back when, I used to love the sound of a Sansui amp. They were DC coupled from right after the RCA input all the way to the speaker. The bass response was . . . awesome. The downside, if one transistor went out, it took them all and it was not good for the woofer either. One output would always be stronger than the other and the woofer would either get a full positive power supply DC voltage or the negative side. Makes for a good thump tho. Sounds like a serial/parallel chip doesn't it? lol Anyone remember the pulse width modulation amps that were tried? http://www.bcae1.com/ampclass.htm I actually heard one of those in a showroom. I can't recall the brand but it was driving a pair of Bose 901's and it was neat. The amps were driving several hundred watts a channel with very little heat. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale: Raffaele BELARDI wrote: On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote: And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they didn't know was there before. I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the CEO's of BP, Shell etc. Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago talking about some HUGE finds. He said that we, the USA, are sitting on some of the largest oil fields. Here is one article I found but not sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this article is a few months old. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENERGY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1 Quoting from that: It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico, North America http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+America is the new Middle East, Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report. Note it said fastest growing producer. You have to find it and be able to get it up before you can produce it. Yea, one day we will run out but that's a good long ways off. We could get hit by some asteroid or something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it, including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any chance? They are drilling for oil like crazy up there. That is just one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently. There are plenty of other finds. Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current consumption. Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too. Science already says it will run out of fuel one day. Solar doesn't work without sunlight. You can't grow corn or anything to make green fuel either. There is always going to be someone claiming we are running out of something. Then, we find more of it and the process continues. Heck, we can't even run out of the flu bug and everyone wants to run out of that. As for it being hard to get to, with new tools and knowledge that is being used, they can get to places that 20 years ago we could never dream of. Once you get a oil pipe in the ground, that thing can produce for years, even decades. It's not like you have to drill a new one for each week or month. Heck, I have seen people talking on TV about oil wells that were drilled way back in the 40's or 50's that still produce lots of oil. Once you get the pipe there, it's not hard anymore. Everything is a limited resource including sunlight. If we are going to live thinking the end is tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living. then turn off your computer. Have everything constantly on IS living like there is no tomorrow. If you want a tomorrow, start energy saving a bit. Sorry, not convinced. I let my computer do work for me and I find it reasonable to pay for. Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago. 'We shouldn't eat to live, we should live to eat.' It was something like that. I think I got it right since I didn't exactly write it down. They were talking about food but still. If you live, you have to use something. and because of some stupid, unrelated quote it is ok to be wasteful? You love quotes? Here is one: Waste not, want not. I'm not wasting anything. I just chose to let my puter work for me not you. I'm not one that is going to be told that I can't use something that belongs to me in my own chosen way. That is just NOT going to work. I chose to leave my system running and that is my decision and mine alone. You make your decision and I'll make mine. I'm not going to tell you to leave yours on, don't tell me to turn mine off either. I'll respect yours, you respect mine. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tuesday 18 September 2012 02:13:14 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very much. Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need) udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine, like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap. No, of course not. That would be silly. I just like to have the monitor under my control, that's all. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: On Tuesday 18 September 2012 02:13:14 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very much. Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need) udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine, like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap. No, of course not. That would be silly. I just like to have the monitor under my control, that's all. You do. You can turn it off and on via the hardware switch on it, and you can disable the kernel's turning it off via software controls. man setterm You have the ability to explicitly control display powersave behaviors using the -powersave and -powerdown options. If you're in X, you have xset. xset -dpms turns Energy Star features off. xset +dpms turns them on. xset dpms force off turns your display off. xset dpms force on turns your display on. Run 'xset' in an xterm to see all the options you have available there. If you're running xscreensaver, you can control its use of DPMS in the configuration window offered by the xscreensaver-demo program. GNOME and KDE also provide similar knobs. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Actually, no. I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the same height as my keyboard. It's just about as easy to hit one as it is to hit the other. Add in that I rarely reboot either. I don't really see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway. I have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my opinion. so you let your box run full power all the time? Doesn't that sound stupid? -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Actually, no. I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the same height as my keyboard. It's just about as easy to hit one as it is to hit the other. Add in that I rarely reboot either. I don't really see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway. I have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my opinion. so you let your box run full power all the time? Doesn't that sound stupid? No. To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of stupid. Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to use it. The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb on. So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid. Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid. Same for my TV. The only time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long while. Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers that dried out. It was still working when I ran up on this half price sale for my current TV. I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I know, it still works. I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's. At the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others. Just as a example. I'm downloading TV shows from various websites. When I get ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download. It may download for hours while I sleep. Heck, I sometimes wake up before it gets through and I add more to the list. I can't do that if I shutdown my computer each time I walk away. Stupid, not even close. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Actually, no. I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the same height as my keyboard. It's just about as easy to hit one as it is to hit the other. Add in that I rarely reboot either. I don't really see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway. I have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my opinion. so you let your box run full power all the time? Doesn't that sound stupid? No. To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of stupid. Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to use it. The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb on. So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid. Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid. Same for my TV. The only time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long while. Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers that dried out. It was still working when I ran up on this half price sale for my current TV. I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I know, it still works. I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's. At the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others. Just as a example. I'm downloading TV shows from various websites. When I get ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download. It may download for hours while I sleep. Heck, I sometimes wake up before it gets through and I add more to the list. I can't do that if I shutdown my computer each time I walk away. Stupid, not even close. Maybe not stupid under some definitions, but a waste of power for sure. When I leave my house, I hibernate my computer; that way I can even unplug the regulator where everything is connected, so not even standby energy is wasted. When I'm in my house but not on the computer, I suspend it. When I turn it on from being hibernated, it takes about 10 seconds to get to my full desktop. When I wake it up from suspension, it takes less than 2 seconds. When it is suspended, it wastes 5 watts (instead of 4 when it's turned off, but connected to the power grid), according to: http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2012/08/05/staring-into-the-axis-abyss-the-railgun-map/ Of course it would be more comfortable to just leave it on all the time. It would also be more comfortable to not separate organic and inorganic waste. Oh, and by the way, what kind of light bulbs do you use that waste as much power as your PC? Mine uses 15 watts; it's one of the new CFLs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp It is more expensive, and it's a pain to dispose it; but it gives the same light that a 75 watts normal light bulb, and it pays itself on electric bills only. Also, it will last longer. When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. It is a *little* inconvenience (waiting a few seconds for the TV, the PS3 or the PC to wake up), but huge money savings. THAT is certainly not stupid. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Actually, no. I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the same height as my keyboard. It's just about as easy to hit one as it is to hit the other. Add in that I rarely reboot either. I don't really see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway. I have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my opinion. so you let your box run full power all the time? Doesn't that sound stupid? No. To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of stupid. Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to use it. The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb on. So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid. Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid. Same for my TV. The only time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long while. Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers that dried out. It was still working when I ran up on this half price sale for my current TV. I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I know, it still works. I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's. At the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others. Just as a example. I'm downloading TV shows from various websites. When I get ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download. It may download for hours while I sleep. Heck, I sometimes wake up before it gets through and I add more to the list. I can't do that if I shutdown my computer each time I walk away. Stupid, not even close. Maybe not stupid under some definitions, but a waste of power for sure. When I leave my house, I hibernate my computer; that way I can even unplug the regulator where everything is connected, so not even standby energy is wasted. When I'm in my house but not on the computer, I suspend it. When I turn it on from being hibernated, it takes about 10 seconds to get to my full desktop. When I wake it up from suspension, it takes less than 2 seconds. When it is suspended, it wastes 5 watts (instead of 4 when it's turned off, but connected to the power grid), according to: http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2012/08/05/staring-into-the-axis-abyss-the-railgun-map/ Of course it would be more comfortable to just leave it on all the time. It would also be more comfortable to not separate organic and inorganic waste. Oh, and by the way, what kind of light bulbs do you use that waste as much power as your PC? Mine uses 15 watts; it's one of the new CFLs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp It is more expensive, and it's a pain to dispose it; but it gives the same light that a 75 watts normal light bulb, and it pays itself on electric bills only. Also, it will last longer. When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. It is a *little* inconvenience (waiting a few seconds for the TV, the PS3 or the PC to wake up), but huge money savings. THAT is certainly not stupid. Regards. I guess you pay more per Kwatt than I do then. I would much rather cut back on something else than my computer. I still use the old style bulbs a lot. I do have some of those little swirly things but not everywhere. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. Apartment living maybe? I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40 LED TV, 22 LED monitor, 16 LCD monitor, an xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1 desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs. It's a lot of power, sure. And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool pump uses.. All a matter of perspective I suppose :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I brought my 46 LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four. Apartment living maybe? I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40 LED TV, 22 LED monitor, 16 LCD monitor, an xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1 desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs. It's a lot of power, sure. And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool pump uses.. All a matter of perspective I suppose :-) My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan. It's perspective. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:03:15 -0500 Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan. It's perspective. And my gasoline bill for two cars and two bikes is double my power bill :-) I account for two thirds of the price and one third of the mileage (I have a heavy foot and an even heavier wrist). I should probably put some attention on that :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:03:15 Dale wrote: My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol Didn't you say once that you run a BOINC application? I forget which one. That would keep your CPU use at 100%. Here I run four at a time continuously, and according to gkrellm the CPUs sit at 60 - 65C. Just giving a little back to the community that I gain from. I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby. Now that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Peter Humphrey wrote: On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:03:15 Dale wrote: My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling. I have a large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large heater for the winter. Compare any of those to my computer, the computer is a rounding error. My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most. At most would be while it is compiling or something. When idle, ~100 watts. I figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run. Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind. Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses. I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter. I use my puter. lol Didn't you say once that you run a BOINC application? I forget which one. That would keep your CPU use at 100%. Here I run four at a time continuously, and according to gkrellm the CPUs sit at 60 - 65C. Just giving a little back to the community that I gain from. I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby. Now that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though. I used to run folding but only in the winter time. I don't mind the heat during the winter since I have electric heat anyway. It doesn't matter if the heat comes from the puter or from the regular heater, it's still heat from the power company. I may as well give back a little when I can. Thing is, I have had issues with folding and have not run it in a while. I started the service but they had no units for me to download and work on. So, when spring came along, I stopped it. I don't think it ever had a single unit all last winter. I chose folding because I have health issues myself. It may not help me but it may help someone else. Maybe someone else will do something to help folks like me. :/ I unhook things that I don't use often or rarely. I have a large air compressor that I turn off unless I plan to use it right away. I even have a small tank for little things, like putting air in the wheel barrow or something like that. I try to conserve on the things that are not used often but don't on the things that I use a lot. I would never think of cutting off my fridge or deep freezers just to save on energy. If my food spoils, that would cost me more than I save. If I had a light bulb that took a minute to come on, I'd likely leave it on a lot if I use it a lot. Why, I don't want to have to wait for it every time I need it. If it costs that much to run, time for a better bulb or something. 96 watts for standby is excessive for sure. What the heck is that thing doing with all that power? O_O Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' here'. Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop` Opinions? yes, turn it on. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' here'. Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop` Opinions? yes, turn it on. OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Actually, no. I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the same height as my keyboard. It's just about as easy to hit one as it is to hit the other. Add in that I rarely reboot either. I don't really see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway. I have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my opinion. Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' here'. Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'. Is for me since I only use the power switch to cut mine off/on. I want to win the lottery but I doubt I ever will, especially since I never buy a ticket. lol It may want it but it did compile without me turning it on. So it appears that it was not a deal breaker for the package and rather doubtful I will use it. I just wanted to check now before it does become a deal breaker and I am forced to reboot for this one small thing. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop` Again, see above. Opinions? yes, turn it on. I did but I doubt it will be used anytime soon. It has joined the other things that must be there that is of really no, or very little use, to me. Maybe one day that will change. ;-) At least now I know another use for this option. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' here'. Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop` Opinions? yes, turn it on. OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of crawling under the table? Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' here'. Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop` Opinions? yes, turn it on. OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show up. I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really needed or not. It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple other things too. I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . . Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Dale wrote: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) udisks will work without that, but if you try to safely unplug a USB stick or other USB storage device, an error will occur because udisks is unable to power off the device before unplugging. The option is not required for its essential functionality, but it's definitely useful and does not add any big overhead to the kernel, so I always enable it and would recommend enabling it unless you have a strong reason not to set it. Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ This message is on a lot of important stuff, it just means you will be able to use USB (at least on *some* machines) without enabling it. As soon as you have any reason to set it or know what it does, this recommendation is superfluous. Only take care if the help message says something like: * This is usually not needed, so if unsure, say no * This is highly experimental, ... * only set this as module ... * Do not enable unless ... In such cases, you should be sure what you are doing and usually no ebuild would require options like that. │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? This option is only USB relevant and can be used on any laptop / desktop system / whatever with USB support. Opinions? Dale :-) :-) P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet. In case you have no USB sticks and never want to use any USB storage device, you won't need udisks at all, try disabling the udisks USE flags on your desktop packages (esp. gvfs). Regards, Felix
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show up. I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really needed or not. It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple other things too. I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . . You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use electricity directly, but something you use does. Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use does (or something you use uses something you use which does). Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need something which needs udisks. So if some option X says don't enable this unless you need it, and you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you need option X, because you need option Z. This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it), then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ ) -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show up. I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really needed or not. It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple other things too. I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . . You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use electricity directly, but something you use does. Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use does (or something you use uses something you use which does). Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need something which needs udisks. So if some option X says don't enable this unless you need it, and you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you need option X, because you need option Z. This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it), then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ ) But, I was still unsure. If it wants me to enable the option for battery monitoring, do I do that too? I don't have any batteries but it wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it. As I posted earlier, I have no plan to use this so how can my system use it when I have nothing here to use it? One example in another reply was to use the keyboard as a power switch. I have a old style keyboard that doesn't have all those extra keys. I'm not sure I could use my keyboard to turn on my system given it is the old style. So, if that is one example of what that is used for, then that is likely to never happen. My system isn't capable of using it regardless of the fact it wants the option. Enabling the option in the kernel does not give me a new keyboard. ^_^ Logic works most of the time but not all the time. I don't feel that I need any of these options. Since the package completed its compile without it, I apparently have the option to leave it out. Thing is, I didn't know what it is for and whether I should enable it so I was unsure about the option. I did enable it but only because it isn't going to be something that borks my system, unlike trying to monitor batteries that don't exist. LOL Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Felix Kuperjans wrote: Dale wrote: Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) udisks will work without that, but if you try to safely unplug a USB stick or other USB storage device, an error will occur because udisks is unable to power off the device before unplugging. The option is not required for its essential functionality, but it's definitely useful and does not add any big overhead to the kernel, so I always enable it and would recommend enabling it unless you have a strong reason not to set it. Ahhh, this was helpful info. I do use sticks but right now that is the only storage thing I use on my system. Everything else is printer, camera etc etc. So, this will 'improve' how a USB stick works too. Neat. Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ This message is on a lot of important stuff, it just means you will be able to use USB (at least on *some* machines) without enabling it. As soon as you have any reason to set it or know what it does, this recommendation is superfluous. Only take care if the help message says something like: * This is usually not needed, so if unsure, say no * This is highly experimental, ... * only set this as module ... * Do not enable unless ... In such cases, you should be sure what you are doing and usually no ebuild would require options like that. Yea, I just didn't know what it was for so I went with the unsure part. Generally, if I am unsure, I leave it out. Thing is, I had a package that hinted it would like to have it. Hence the question about what this was and such. I wanted to take the 'un' out of unsure. lol │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? This option is only USB relevant and can be used on any laptop / desktop system / whatever with USB support. I got that now. The info above helped on that one. Opinions? Dale :-) :-) P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet. In case you have no USB sticks and never want to use any USB storage device, you won't need udisks at all, try disabling the udisks USE flags on your desktop packages (esp. gvfs). Regards, Felix I do plan to get a external USB drive one of these days. So, it is enabled and I'm now 'sure' about it. ;-) You applied power to my light bulb. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show up. I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really needed or not. It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple other things too. I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . . You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use electricity directly, but something you use does. Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use does (or something you use uses something you use which does). Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need something which needs udisks. So if some option X says don't enable this unless you need it, and you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you need option X, because you need option Z. This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it), then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ ) But, I was still unsure. If it wants me to enable the option for battery monitoring, do I do that too? I don't have any batteries but it wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it. When it comes to software, even if you don't actively use a thing, you may depend on it being there. The reasons involved could come from any of dozens of programming issues you may be unaware of or uncaring of; it could come from the need of a programmer to simplify his reasoning about a system in order to simplify his code (or the problem his code is trying to solve). It could come from some automatic linking process that looks for a symbol even if the function that symbol represents is never called in practice. It could come from some indirect artifact of the thing being there. You're trying to apply a holistic reasoning basis to a deterministic dependency problem. That kind of logic is the same kind of logic that leads to stories such as but why won't you plug in your computer? because it makes a lot of noise. Why won't my computer work? Because it needs power, so you need to plug it in. But it makes a lot of noise. Apologies for the crass analogy, but it really is the same thing, just at a different technical depth. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Monday 17 September 2012 16:57:49 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop Not on this one, no. It spends its life running BOINC applications. You know, contributing something back for all the help I've gained. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: On Monday 17 September 2012 16:57:49 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop Not on this one, no. It spends its life running BOINC applications. You know, contributing something back for all the help I've gained. I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended, saving a little bit of power. You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off features of it, right? Really, I think many others have contributed enough reasons to make it obvious that there is no reason to not turn on this kind of options in the kernel. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb cov...@ccs.covici.com: OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make menuconfig, but could not actually find it! I have all my usb host controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference. I am using 3.4.0-gentoo. hit / in menuconfig. It is there. Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search. Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show up. I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really needed or not. It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple other things too. I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . . You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use electricity directly, but something you use does. Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use does (or something you use uses something you use which does). Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need something which needs udisks. So if some option X says don't enable this unless you need it, and you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you need option X, because you need option Z. This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it), then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ ) But, I was still unsure. If it wants me to enable the option for battery monitoring, do I do that too? I don't have any batteries but it wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it. When it comes to software, even if you don't actively use a thing, you may depend on it being there. The reasons involved could come from any of dozens of programming issues you may be unaware of or uncaring of; it could come from the need of a programmer to simplify his reasoning about a system in order to simplify his code (or the problem his code is trying to solve). It could come from some automatic linking process that looks for a symbol even if the function that symbol represents is never called in practice. It could come from some indirect artifact of the thing being there. You're trying to apply a holistic reasoning basis to a deterministic dependency problem. That kind of logic is the same kind of logic that leads to stories such as but why won't you plug in your computer? because it makes a lot of noise. Why won't my computer work? Because it needs power, so you need to plug it in. But it makes a lot of noise. Apologies for the crass analogy, but it really is the same thing, just at a different technical depth. But as I said, the package did compile without it. Since it did compile without it, it was not a hard, must have, requirement. If the package would have failed to compile, then I would either have to get rid of the package or enable the option. The message said it should have the option just like one should give the computer power. Thing is, my system was working just fine without the option before. Heck, I still may not really need the option. The software would just like to have it. I may even be able to get rid of the software which would be the next thing if I didn't choose to enable the kernel option. I'm pretty sure it is KDE that is pulling all this extra stuff in. Now that I know more about the option, I added it. Maybe when I reboot it will be happy. ;-) Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off features of it, right? raises hand I leave mine on unless I turn off my puter too. Actually, I just tested the power save thingy and for some reason, mine doesn't cut the monitor off. So, mine runs all the time and looks like it will be that way for a while, unless I can figure out why it doesn't want to take a nap. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended, saving a little bit of power. No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system) each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup. You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off features of it, right? I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very much. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended, saving a little bit of power. No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system) each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup. You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off features of it, right? I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very much. There's a sysctl for that. I don't remember what it is off the top of my head. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended, saving a little bit of power. No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system) each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup. You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off features of it, right? I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very much. Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need) udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine, like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap. Me? I'm lazy; the more my OS takes trivial decisions from me, the more time I have to do interesting stuff and get actual work done. That's why I use Linux/systemd/PulseAudio/bluez/GNOME; the decisions they take are usually the smart ones (from my point of view). But that's just me. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
[gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Howdy, I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out. This is what it says: Found sources for kernel version: 3.5.0-gentoo Checking for suitable kernel configuration options... ERROR (setup) CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be. WARN (setup) Please check to make sure these options are set correctly. Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems. So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this: │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │ │ │ │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │ │ power/control file to enable or disable autosuspend for │ │ individual USB peripherals (see │ │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │ │ │ │ Also, USB remote wakeup signaling is supported, whereby some │ │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │ │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │ │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │ │ │ │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │ │ │ │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │ │ Type : boolean │ │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │ │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │ │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] USB [=y] PM_RUNTIME [=y] │ │ Location: │ │ - Device Drivers │ │ - USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │ │ - Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y]) The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? Opinions? Dale :-) :-) P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet. -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However, udisks want it, so I would enable it. This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt. And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much as I do my laptop. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However, udisks want it, so I would enable it. Well, I was unsure about it. LOL This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt. And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much as I do my laptop. Regards. Actually, except for a USB stick, I have not plugged a drive into a USB port, YET. I'm sure I will someday tho. I hope to get one for backup one of these days. Thanks much. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
On Sep 17, 2012 10:21 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'. Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that it should be there. I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However, udisks want it, so I would enable it. Well, I was unsure about it. LOL This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not needing it or udisk that says I do? I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt. And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much as I do my laptop. Regards. Actually, except for a USB stick, I have not plugged a drive into a USB port, YET. I'm sure I will someday tho. I hope to get one for backup one of these days. Thanks much. Dale :-) :-) Kind of off-topic, but... For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After all, what good is an online backup system if the data becomes corrupted without me realizing it... I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one, booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take, though... The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that much cheaper either, considering I have to build a complete system with a honkin' big casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives... And neither provides an off-site backup... Rgds, -- Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
Pandu Poluan wrote: Kind of off-topic, but... For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After all, what good is an online backup system if the data becomes corrupted without me realizing it... I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one, booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take, though... The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that much cheaper either, considering I have to build a complete system with a honkin' big casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives... And neither provides an off-site backup... Rgds, -- Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~ So far, knock on wood, I have only had one drive to die on me and I got the data off before it did with some time to spare. I agree with RAID but what happens if the house catches fire? What if someone breaks in and steals my puter, even tho I'm a really good shot? o_O I usually put my backups on DVD but when you start storing videos, that goes out the window pretty fast. So, I figure I'd just get me some sort of USB drive and backup to that from time to time. Those questions are what happens when you try to account for each and every thing that *can* happen tho. It gets expensive pretty quick. I could just download most all the videos again so even if a few were to get corrupted, I can most likely get them back. Things I create myself, I have backups on DVD since it is a MUCH smaller number. Those DVDs are in a separate building too, in case of fire or something. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk
True... Had I only one computer, I would've gone the USB 3 route... 2 ext HD, I backup to one for one or two weeks, then deposit the drive to an off-site location, swapping it with the other HD, and use the second HD for the next period. Problem is, using a USB drive means I have to move it around, and I'm lazy, so it won't work for me... That's why I opt for a networked solution... Hmm, that begat an interesting thought, though... Anyone knows of a cheapo box (appliance) with USB 3.0 that can expose an external HD to the network? Rgds, -- Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~ On Sep 17, 2012 11:16 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Pandu Poluan wrote: Kind of off-topic, but... For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After all, what good is an online backup system if the data becomes corrupted without me realizing it... I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one, booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take, though... The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that much cheaper either, considering I have to build a complete system with a honkin' big casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives... And neither provides an off-site backup... Rgds, -- Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~ So far, knock on wood, I have only had one drive to die on me and I got the data off before it did with some time to spare. I agree with RAID but what happens if the house catches fire? What if someone breaks in and steals my puter, even tho I'm a really good shot? o_O I usually put my backups on DVD but when you start storing videos, that goes out the window pretty fast. So, I figure I'd just get me some sort of USB drive and backup to that from time to time. Those questions are what happens when you try to account for each and every thing that *can* happen tho. It gets expensive pretty quick. I could just download most all the videos again so even if a few were to get corrupted, I can most likely get them back. Things I create myself, I have backups on DVD since it is a MUCH smaller number. Those DVDs are in a separate building too, in case of fire or something. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
