Re: [Goanet] Delete Pontius Pilate from creed

[Sebastian Borges]

For argument’s sake let us assume that Pilate did not act theway he did, that 
he set Jesus free. Would we have Christianity? Would Jesus beable to fulfill 
his mission? Would God the Father be able to fulfill thepromise he made in 
Genesis?

Therefore, we must thank Pilate for affording us salvation throughChrist.

 

 

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 08:51:59 -0400

Eugene Correia 

wrote: 

    

 

Whatever the theological reasons, Pilate was the authority givento him. He

acted politically to save himself from being dislodged despitehe believed

and said so that he finds Jesus is not guilty on any countsbrought against

Jesus. Politics was prevalent even in those days, it means.

 

 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:02 PM, Roland Francis 

wrote:

 

> Nelson de Chinchinim,

> In humility, I point out that the dastardly brutal act ofmurder to which

> you refer, was ordained by the father of the victim inquestion, Pontius

> Pilate being only one of the instruments.

> 

> Roland Francis

> Toronto.

> 

> 

> > Over the centuries  why does  the CatholicChurch remember him in the

> > CREED, along side with Jesus, there by keeping thememory of this

> > unpardonable,

> > unforgivable villain of crucifixion. Do we still needto glorify him  and

> > celebrate his existence recalling his name for thisdastardly act of

> brutal

> > murder by devoutly reciting his name.? It is in thefitness of things,

> > keeping with the sentiments of the faithful, the creedbe modified and

> name

> > of Pontius Pilate deleted. How can we continue torelish his ignomious

> > memory.? The  sacred prayer ,creed that Catholicsrecite so often must

> not

> > have place for such a disgraceful ,tyrant, oppressiveruler  in the creed

> >

> > Nelson Lopes Chinchinim

 

Re: [Goanet] Goan relationships: The Konkani listing... (Pe. Antonio da Costa)

[Sebastian Borges]

DearEddie,

Ido remember the discussion on Goanet. Cannot recollect whether I 
participatedin it; I had certainly copied it, but lost it when my hard disc 
crashed. Gladto retrieve it. Thanks.

Sinceyou intend to update your blog, I have a few suggestions for your 
consideration.

A.   Spellings:

In nath, nathram, southelo (etc) and dher theH could be omitted since the t/d 
are not aspirated.

In daktto, daktti, nouro, okol, deddo, deddithere is aspiration; hence dhaktto, 
dhaktti, nhouro, hokol, dheddo, dheddi.

Mammi could better be written as mami, zanvuimas zanvoy, and nonond as nonnond.

Filead could be written as filiad; but pleaseretain kuinead as this expresses 
the sound better than kuniad that I used.

Yei/yenn could be better written as vei/venn.

B.   Someemendations:

Since Azo/Aji are synonymous with Xapai/Xamaim, your Azo/Ajishould be replaced 
by Ponnzo/Ponnji.

Dhaktto vo Modlo pai – If father has only two brothers, justvhoddlo and dhaktto 
would suffice. If there are three or more, then Vhoddlo(eldest), Modlo (middle) 
and Dhaktto (youngest).

In Tipai and Timaim the Ti does not stand for three but for theportuguese 
tio/tia i.e. Tio-pai and Tia-mae. These terms are useful when fatherhas only 
one brother. An uncle priest is called Tipadr (tio-padre); this termis 
applicable to a maternal uncle priest as well, since in portuguese 
maternaluncle is also Tio. Timan too has a similar origin: Tia-mana 
(aunt-sister).

Mavxi mavxecho ghov need to be separated. Mavxecho ghov could be replaced 
byMavso which is given by Dalgado too.

Mamageris maternal uncle’s place

Kumpar(Port. Compadre) is not synonymous with Podon/Padrin (Port. 
Padrinho);similarly Kumar (Port. Comadre) is not synonymous with Madrin/modon 
(Port. Madrinha).These terms refer to the godparents of one’s child, whereas 
Podon/Modon referto one’s own godparents. 
Saddu – wife’s sister’s husband – This should be shifted to the next line.

ManEddie (Port. Mano Eddie) may also be addressed as Eddie irmanv or Eddie bab; 
ifSara is an elder sister she may be addressed as Man Sara (Port. Mana Sara).  
Ti is used for aunt, not elder sister. Thus  Ti Sara (Port. Tia Sara) means 
Aunt Sara.

C.   Additions:

Since my last post, I have collected some more terms. Ourlanguage is quite 
sophisticated in this regard. One of the reasons for this isperhaps the fact 
that not too long ago, at least in rural Goa, one was expectedto address one’s 
relatives according to their relative generation and not relativeage. E.g. one 
of my neighbours, though younger to me, would address my fatheras Irmanv and my 
mother as Honi; her grandmother had been my grandmother’spaternal aunt, which 
made her father my grandmother’s cousin, and hence myfather her cousin. You may 
consider the following:

Azomanv/Ajesasro – father of father-in-law or of mother-in-law.

Ajimaim/Ajesasu – wife of azomanv.

Ajikaku – sister of paternal grandfather.

Ajimavxi – sister of maternal grandmother.

Atebhavoz – wife of atebhav.

Ateder – husband’s atebhav.

Atezav – wife of ateder.

Atenonnond – husband’s atebhoinn.

Atemama – mother’s atebhav.

Atemami – wife of atemama.

Bapul-azo – grandfather’s brother

Bapul-aji – wife of bapul-azo 

Bapul-atem – grandfather’s sister

Bapul-atebhav – son of bapul-atem 

Bapul-atebhoinn – daughter of bapul-atem

Bapul-der – husband’s bapulbhav 

Bapul-bhavoz – wife of bapulbhav

Bapul-zav – wife of bapul-der 

Bapul-nonnond – husband’s bapulbhoinn

Bapul-zanvoy – husband of brother’s daughter 

Bapul-sun – wife of brother’s son 

Bapul-natu – brother’s grandson 

Bapul-nat – brother’s grand-daughter

Bapul-bhacho – son of bapul-bhoinn 

Bapul-bhachi – daughter of bapulbhoinn

Bapul-mevnno – wife’s bapulbhav 

Bapul-mevnni – wife’s bapulbhoinn

Bapul-mama – mother’s bapulbhav

Bapul-mami – wife of bapul-mama 

Bapul-manv – father-in-law’s brother

Bapul-maim – wife of bapul-manv 

Bapul-mavxi – sister of grandmother 

Bapul-mavso – husband of bapul-mavxi

Bapul-ponnzo – great-grandfather’s brother

Bapul-ponnji – wife of bapul-ponnzo 

Tipulio – father’s bapulbhav

Tipul-bhav – son of tipulio

Tipul-bhoinn – daughter of tipulio

Tipul-mama – mother’s tipulbhav

Tipul-mami – wife of tipul-mama

Tipul-manv – father-n-law’s bapulbhav

Tipul-maim – bapulzav of mother-in-law

Dhakttel – junior wife (Not sure whether thishas a pejorative meaning. But 
“Dhuvek dhakttelponnak dilia” means “The daughterhas been given in marriage to 
a widower.)


 
Mog asum.

Sebastian Borges


 
 On: Thu, 26 Feb 2015  Edward Verdes eddiever...@hotmail.com wrote:

Dear Prof. Borges,
Thanks for the updated and rewritten words as per current orthography
Some years back, Domnic bab and myself had made a compilation on goanet Under 
Amchi Famil - 
Relative names in Konkani which was improved by inputs by others on the list. 
The updated version was posted on my blog on this site.

http://edskantaram.blogspot.com/search/label/Amchi%20Famil%20-%20Relative%20Names%20in

[Goanet] Goan relationships: The Konkani listing... (Pe. Antonio da Costa)

[Sebastian Borges]

Here is an extended version of Fr. Antonio da Costa's list. Most of the 
additions are from Dalgado. Some words have been rewritten according to the 
current orthography. Hope it will be useful.
 RELATIONSHIP        
TERMINOLOGY-
English           Konkani
-

Man                   Dadulo
Woman                   Bail
Husband                   Gou/gov/poti,Ghov, ghorkar
Wife                   Bail/potin,ghorkarn
Father                  Bap/bapui/pai/papa/dada
Mother                   Avoi/maim/mama
Son                   Put, Cholo,Cheddo
Daughter               Duv, Dhuv, Choli, Cheddum
Brother                   Bhav/bau
Sister                   Bhoin,Bhoinn
Grand-son               Natu
Grand-daughter               Naty/Natiny, Nat

Grand-child   Natur
Great-grandson               Ponntu
Great-granddaughter            Ponntiny, Ponntti 

Great-grand-child  Ponntur
Great-great-grandson               Xennttu
Great-great-grand-child   Xennttur
Nephew (brother’s son)         Putonniyo
Nephew(sister’s son)                   Bacho, Bhacho
Niece (brother’s daughter)       Putonni, Dhuvddi
Niece(sister’s daughter)               Bachi,Bhachi
Grand-father               Azo/Xapai/Papai/Papa grande, Apai
Grand-mother               Aji/Xamaim/Mamaim/Mama grande,Amaim
Great-grand-father               Ponnzo
Great-grand-mother             Ponnji
Great-great-grand-father      Xennzo
Great-great-grand-mother        Xennji
PaternalUncle                Tiu/Tio/Ti-Tiu,Bapolio, Chulto

Father’s elder brother (his wife) Vhoddlo pai (vhoddli maim)

Father’s younger brother (his wife) Dhaktto pai (dhaktti maim)

Paternal Aunt               Ti-Man, Titin, Kak,  Atem
MaternalUncle                Mamtiu, Mam’,Mavllo
Wifeof maternal Uncle            Mam-Ti, Mami,Mavlli
MaternalAunt (her husband)              Mauxi/Maxan, Maux’man (Mauso)
PaternalCousin (father’s brother’s)              Bapul bhav/Bapul bhoin, Chulot 
bhav/Chulot bhoinn
PaternalCousin (father’s sister’s)              Atebhav/Atebhoinn 

Maternal cousin (mother’s brother’s)      Mamebhav/Mamebhoinn                   
   
Maternalcousin (mother’s sister’s)       Maux’bhav/Maux’bhoinn                  
   

Son-in-law               Zanvoim
Daughter-in-law               Sun
Grand-son-in-law               Natzanvoy
Grand-daughter-in-law      Natsun
Husband's brother           Der
Husband'sSister            Nonnonz, Nonnond
Husbandof Husband's Sister            Nonnddavo
Brother'swife                Bhavoz/Uni,Honi
Sister'shusband            Miunnom, Kuniad,Bhavoji
Husband'sbro's wife            Zau
Wife'sBrother                Miunnom, Mhivnno
Wife'sSister                Miunnim, Mhivnni
Husbandof Wife's Sister                Saddu
God-child           Filiad, Dhormput, Dhormdhuv
God-father(for child)            Podin/Padrinh',Podon
God-mother(for child)            Modiny/madrinh',Modon
God-father(in relation to parents)    Cumpary, Kumpar
God-mother(in relation to parents)    Cumary, Kumar, Kuman
Boy                  Bab/Burgo/Tsolo/cherho, Bhurgo, Cholo, Cheddo
Girl                  Bai/Burgi/Tsoli/Cherhum, Choli, Cheddum
Child                   Burgem,Ballok
Father-in-law               Sassupai/Saspai, Manv
Brotherof Father-in-law (his wife)     Fagurmanv (Fagurmaim)
Mother-in-law               Sasumaim/Sasmaim, Maim
Son’s/Daughter’sParents-in-law       Vey (m), Venn (f)        
Co-wife(husband’s first/other wife)   Sovot

Step-father  Sovti bapuy
Step-mother    Mavxi, Sovtimaim, Sovti avoy
Step-brother/sister    Sovtibhav/Sovtibhoinn
Step-sonand step-daughter   Sovtiput/Sovtidhuv

Adopted child  POsko,POskem

Married woman’s native house Kullar
Wife’snative house Mavoddo

Mother’s native houseAzoll

Grand-mother’s native house Ponnzoll

Great-grand-mother’s native houseXennzoll
Sebastian Borges
On 22 Feb 2015 FN forwarded the following message from Fr. Antonio da Costa:

Pe. Antonio da Costa
mai...@msn.com

Since Goanet has been sharing Konkani words via cyberspace, I
thought of a list I have made of all possible relationship
terms in Konkani.

When I was typing the lyrics of dulpods for our book *Undra
Muja Mama*, I was fascinated with all the terms in the
dulpods that described how people are related to each other
with very specific term.

I found that our language Konkani is the richest in
describing the relationships in comparison to at least eight
other languages I speak, read or write.  Could other readers
improve on this list, or correct it?
---
Sebastian Borges 
 

Re: [Goanet] KONKANI WORD FOR 'DICTIONARY

[Sebastian Borges]

Message: 6
Dear R FernandesThe Konkani word for Dictionary is XOBDKOX. For Vocabulary it 
is UTRAVOLL, no M in the middle.Hope this meets with your requirements,
Sebastian Borges 
On 20 Nov 2014  rosarioabel fernandes rosarioa...@gmail.comwrote:

Dear Goanetters

Kindly let me know the word in Konkani for the English word DICTIONARY.

Is it UTRAMVOLL ?  if not does this word mean Vocabulary  and what is
word Dictionary in Konkani ?


Thank you in advance

R Fernandes

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Dev borem Korum - Need word in Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttano,
The native Konkani word for beach is vell, a feminine noun in which the sound 
of e is open. Hence the plural (beaches) is vello (the e is open but the o is 
closed.)
Doryadeg is not an apt synonym. Dorya = sea and deg = margin/border/edge 
as in kapddadeg = border/margin/edge of a sari. Hence this means sea-coast, 
which is not necessarily a beach. 
SamudraKinari does mean beach in Marathi, but not in Konkani. According to 
Dalgado, the Konkani words samudra/som'dir = sea, ocean and kinari = 
margin, brink, border, side; hence samudrakinari means seaside (or even 
seafront) in Konkani. Perhaps this is what prompted Reis Falcao to pose his 
query, although he did not specify the context.

The Portuguese word pao (with a tilde on the a that Goanet does not support), 
pronounced panv in Konkani and pav in Marathi, is one of the Konkani words 
for bread. Konkani has many words each of which refers to a specific variety of 
bread. Panv is used for the baker's loaf; the rustic Saxttikar has his own 
native term unddo for the same. Other specific terms (which are not synonyms 
of each other) are bhakri, polli, pollo, sandonn, koilolli, 
kailolli the list is almost endless. But in European usage bread/pao have 
wide meanings like, for instance, earning one's bread. In Our Father we say 
Give us this day our daily bread (ENG) or Pao nosso de cada dia (PORT). But 
in the translation of this prayer in Doutrina Christam, Fr. Thomas Stephens (an 
English Jesuit) does not use unddo or panv for bread, since,in the context 
of the prayer bread stands for food/sustenance; hence unddo would be 
inappropriate. He used the Konkani
 word gras instead. But while translating loaves in KristPurann he does use 
undde. 
Not only does pau mean quarter in Konkani, but it also means stick in 
Portuguese! 

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges
 
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Jose Fernandes konk...@gmail.com wrote:

*Manestamno,Inglezintlea
'Beaches' hea utrak Konknni utor
'Vello.'
'Doryadego' oxem-i mhonnum yeta.*


*Ek Vell (feminine noun)  -  Don VelloDoryadeg  (feminine noun)
- DoryadegoMog asum,Jose Salvador Fernandes*
 
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote:


So pao
yes, and not pau. Although I wrote pau, I inflect correctly to sound
pao,
but on a few occasions spelled pau (pau,n). Yet, conveys a paucity of
understanding.
I did not write in Konkani in India, and also saw the
representation
of our sounds strangely. It is not my mothers fault.

We are
removed from Portuguese (of course not all) for sure and that should
be
fine too, unless one insists to a Portuguese speaker (any) to settle pao,
and
worse pau instead of p?o, when said speaker in functioning/speaking in
Portuguese,
as opposed to in Konkani (pao).



On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote:

I
think the word pau in Konkani means
quarter,
example: pau-xer (quarter
litre),
and the Portuguese word for bread is p?o though some write it as pao,
which
is fine. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.




On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o 

 drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote:


Is all seaside / seafront a beach?


Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.

 
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 Dr. J. Colaco cola...@gmail.com wrote:


Assuming
that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi, SamudraKinare (Sea side)
looks
like a good translation,

IF, on
the other hand, Konkani is a living language, then I suggest we use
the
word used by our mothers

jc

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] DKA's LITERARY CRITICISM

[Sebastian Borges]

On
Fri, 5 Sep 2014  Gaspar Almeida gasperalme...@gmail.com wrote:

1. Is Yatra a Konkani word?
2. Kindly
desist from coining new words for Konkani.
3. Hope
DKA and all otherwise take note.

Comment:
1. A fair question if it comes from
a curious reader in search of knowledge. And the plain answer is Yes.
But what follows is blatant sermonizing by an arrogant ignoramus.

2. Does
he mean to command Konkani writers to restrict themselves within the confines
of his own vocabulary? Is there any language in the world today which does not
coin new words according to its needs? English for instance? Why should Konkani
be an exception? On what authority does he fling this admonition?

3. Before
preaching to DKA and all otherwise let him widen his horizons by
reading some Konkaani literature. He could make a beginning with MOHABHAROT
Adi Porv by Prof. L. A. Rodrigues, and see how much of it he understands.
Therein on p. 119, he will find the heading of Otthravi Kotha as Orjunachi
yatra. 

Hope better sense prevails.
Sebastian Borges.

Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Sebastian Borges]

Perhaps ditto means exactly the same as it does in English. Didier could please 
try this out. Else, one entire para from his document containing the word could 
be posted here. I am sure some goanetter would be able to decipher it.

Sebastian Borges

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 didier de Melo didierdem...@hotmail.com wrote:


When I collected my documents from arquives I found the measurements like 
lenght is 3 bamboos and 2 hands. 
But in some documents I found the lenght on East side is 15 dittos. What dittos 
is no one could tell me. Nor could I find
in any old books.

Didier de Melo


..
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi?

[Sebastian Borges]

I think Domnicbab has mistakenly interchanged the
order of gin'nattem and an'nattem in the sequence of measures.
On consulting Dalgado I find:
Girnatti = one-eighth part of Podd. (This is
repeated by Kresens Monter.)
Odnatti = half Natti or one-fourth part of Podd.
Natti is not given; nor is Solgem. But Dessai
gives Solgem as ordi Podd. Hence, Solgem and Dalgado's Natti are synonymous.
Dalgado gives Muddi as a package of rice in hay,
but does not mention the measure of its contents. He also gives Muddo as a
large Muddi. I too have no knowledge of Muddi being used as a measure.
But Dessai gives Muddi as bara pailio tandllanchi tonnan bandil'li pottli;
and Muddo as solla pailianchi Muddi, and this last is traced to the
year 1290.
Hope this helps.
 
Sebastian Borges
 
On 27 Oct 2013 Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
Gui'natti/gui'natem
X 4, equals 1 anna'tti (ten)
X 4, equals 1 podd' x 4, equals i paili You
guys have missed out one of the measures SOLGEM,
and I think the first two measures are
interchanged. So, the above should read
as follows: 2
(two) An?natteo equals 1 (one) gin?natti 2
(two) gin?natteo equals 1 (one) solgem2
(two) solgim equals 1 (one) podd4
(four) poddi equals 1 paili . There
is also another measure called MUDDI (a
bale) which usually contained 4 kuddov.
Rice was packed in muddieo pretty
much like bales of khajur i.e., it
was filled in woven baskets using dry leaves on
sides to avoid pilferage and
then wrapped around with dry hay and secured
tightly with sumb (coir cope). The package was widely used as a gift at weddings
and other functions. People also packed and stored
rice in muddieo.  There
were two types of paileo ? one with
metal bar fixed in line with its top, which was
fitted to a metal ring around
top of paili; it was called filsanvachi paili and
the other without. Kortad is, of course, the Portuguese translation of the
Konkani 'katorn' that we use. In
Bardez we say: katrun map. People used
a round of piece of bamboo to level the contents
but most preferred to use a
piece of round metal pipe, which was already
available at a chul (fire place) to blow fire. Moi-mogan, Domnic
FernandesAnjuna,
Goa       
        
 
...
Sebastian Borges    

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi

[Sebastian Borges]

Re: [Goanet] Subject:  Old-style
measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi

Has chacha made a mistake or do some terms have
different meanings in different villages?
In my village (Velim) gin'nattem x2 = 1 an'nattem.
Paili x 2 = 1 kuddov.  Kuddov x 20 = 1
khanddi. Khanddi x 20 = 1 kumbh. Hence, 1 kumbh = 800 pailio. But by Chacha's
reckoning 1 kumbh = 1600 pailio! 
In my village the monsoon or 'Pavsalli' crop is
called Sorodd and the dry season (irrigated) crop is Vaingonn; Chacha's terms
are interchanged. 
Chacha may please clarify.
Kortad is, of course, the Portuguese translation
of the Konkani 'katorn' that we use.
 
Sebastian Borges
 On 26 Oct 2013 Alfred de Tavares alfredtava...@hotmail.com wrote:

Good... you guys are edifying our posterity in
these weights  measures of millenia
past. Soon our neonati generations will not know
about this paraphernalia, essential
to our goneby existence..., good God forbid,
such daily-requisite materials viz. pencils, 
slates, erasers, chalks, blackboards,
sharpenersPAPER may be heading towards oblivion. 
Ousch...as our Viviana, in Cal, is bound to
sayhow very apocalyptic...

Thus a record of pre-kilogram-littre measures,
inalianable necessities of every-minute
life, sketchily recorded. We had:

Gui'natti/gui'natem  X 4, equals 1 anna'tti
(ten) X 4, equals 1 podd' x 4, equals i paili

4 pailis equal 1 mond(h); 5 paillis equal 1
vod'lo/dedd mond.

All these measures could be asked for 'cortad' ie
levelled with a stave or ?sui (suien)
ie heaped/peaked-up.

Then going higher:

20 monds equaled 1 Khandi and 20 khandis equaled 1
kumbh. 

These were almost always measured kortad; but
could on occasion, depending on
the avarice/cruelty pf the batkar (very rare)
could be asked for in sui form.

The proportion to ammount of seed to a field
depend on type of field/cultivation: 
Thus, morod/terraceed fields on hillsides;
khazan/low-lying, sub-river-level filled up 
(dyked, Dutch-style fields. 

Khazans in turn have two types of planting:
pausav/vaingon is the rainy season 
crop and sorod is the dry season crop irrigated by
respective village toyems/ponds/resevoirs
which were filled up and used as sources of
irrigation during dry season.

These, again man'made water storages turn out rich
yields of tastiest fish and the daily out and
in flow of thei waters are regulated with
admirably efficient sluice-gates.

in our times their cash yields have crossed into
crores at annual village comunidade auctions.

There is much detail to be filled up, which I
intend to do. I have just outlined the bare sketch

What say Rico, JC. Sholud I turn in ove to Wikipedia,
unless they already have it.

What, for ex I have not proportions of seed to
various fields/crops. Will do so in December.

I use to help my Pai a good deal during the
mirg/cultivation times, before going on to
boarding school (LHS), colleged, etc.

I promise also detailed list of the fluid-measurs:
Xer, pau, so on.

 the zot'ta, the plouging, the mownis,
winowing.

I invite all informed friends to please fill in as
details of yester-things tickle you minds.

OBS: Victor Hugo's incomparable CHITRA has an
enviable collection of all these implements. 

A reminiscent Chacha...

-
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Merwyn,
I know that in
order to become a Christian one gets him/herself baptized. In order to become a
Hindu too one goes through certain ceremonies. (I don’t know what they are, but
have read that people who have reconverted to Hinduism have gone
through some such ceremonies.) So, how does one become an Atheist? Does one
perform/undergo certain ceremonies? Or does one just stop
performing/participating in some activities which s/he did as a Catholic/Hindu/
.? Does eschewing such activities automatically make one an Atheist? Else,
how does your neighbour know that you have converted to Atheism? We must note
that caste discrimination (positive or negative) is performed on you by others
who must necessarily know your caste. To my mind, Casteism, like Atheism, is an
attitude of the mind. My reading is that the caste system might have
originated/evolved as an adjunct of Hinduism, but caste discrimination, or
casteism, is not a necessary part of the Hindu faith; one may devoutly practice
the Hindu religion without being a casteist and one may renounce the Hindu faith
yet retaining the casteism.

And I, a
Catholic of Goan parentage (born and brought up outside Goa and blissfully
oblivious of the practice of Christianity in my parents' parish in Goa) but
settled abroad proudly declare: I absolutely
deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it
for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of
Reservations. [Perhaps
this was the stance adopted by the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly
too.] Denying admission into the major confraria to a dalit is certainly not
subjugation, but that admission, when granted, would certainly be a special
privilege to a dalit since this has never been available to him. Now, would you
say that, with my stance, I am tacitly supporting my father's relatives who are
denying that admission to a dalit?

It is not that
the Vatican is unaware of the type of Christianity that is being practised by
the Catholic Church in India. Please see:  
http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/dclm%20memorandum.htm
http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/dalitaccusation.htm
These are
nearly 14 years old; what steps has the Vatican taken, in the meanwhile, to 
correct the situation and
with what success?

Your Greek and Egyptian might debate the issue to their heart's content, and 
until the cows come home; but would this bring any solace to the slave? Please 
give it a thought.
 
What is meant
by a cultural Hindu? Is the culture of an Ayyangar identical with
that of a Rajput, both being Hindu?

Sebastian Borges


On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote:

Sebastian Borges,
While caste is a truly cruel practice, one that affects (whether they admit it 
or not) all those in India, sitting here in Toronto I can only view what you 
have written above in amazement. It is almost like time travel. It is like I 
have been transported back 400 years.

Reading the above is also like reading a debate between an ancient Greek and an 
ancient Egyptian on who treated their slaves better. It is only of academic 
interest to the reader. To the person on the receiving end though, slave 
treatment, or in this case, near slave treatment is terrifying.?

My question, and this is to any brave heart here, is:
Does a person still retain his/her caste when s/he becomes an atheist? ?

Or does one remain a cultural Hindu forever.

Mervyn

..
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

 of dalits. Presently I am running a home
for the aged, providing educational help to poor dalit students, empowering
dalit women with tailoring learning and free sewing machines and planning to do
many more programs besides saying mass and prayers only for dalits. .
This is an unfortunate trend; the Catholic Church is disintegrating in South
India as a result of caste feuds. This is buttressed by another fact: In the
backdrop of the police firing cited above, a thousand Dalit Christians 
officially
got reconverted into Hinduism.  
 
Regards.
Sebastian Borges


On  3 Sep
2013  Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote:


3. Regarding hindutva influence in the
Constituent Assembly, please read
what wikipedia has to state about Dr K M Munshi
and Mr Purushottam Das
Tandon and  Dr S P Mukherjee,.

Re: Dr K M Munshi:
 He and Purushottam Das
Tandonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Das_Tandon were
among those who strongly opposed propagation and
conversion in the constituent
assembly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_India. He
was also the main driving force behind the
renovation of the historically
important Somnath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath Temple by the
Government of India just after
independence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanaiyalal_Maneklal_Munshi
Re: Purushottam Das Tandon:
Several controversies and contradictions
abound in the life of Purushottam
Das Tandon. While he emphasized the similarities
between
Hinduhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu
and Muslim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim cultures, he is regarded
to have carried the image of a *soft* Hindu
nationalisthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_nationalist leader.
He and KM Munshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KM_Munshi were among those
who strongly opposed religious propagation and
conversion of a people of
one religion to another; they strongly argued in
the constituent
assemblyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_India
for
a condemnation in the
constitutionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India of
religious conversion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Das_Tandon

Re: Dr S P Mukherjee:
*Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee*  was an
Indian politician, who served as
Minister for Industry and Supply in Prime
Minister Jawaharlal
Nehruhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawaharlal_Nehru's
cabinet. After falling out with Nehru, Mookerjee
quit the Indian National
Congress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress party and
founded Nationalist Bharatiya Jana
Sanghhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Jana_Sangh party
in 1951.'
 He emerged as a spokesman for Hindus and
shortly joined Hindu Mahasabha
and in 1944, he became the President.
After consultation with Shri Golwalkar
Guruji of RSS Shri Mookerjee
founded Bharatiya Jana Sangh on 21st Oct. 1951
at Delhi and he became the
first President of it. In 1952 elections, 
The BJS was ideologically close
to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak
Sanghhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh (RSS)
and widely considered the political arm of Hindu
Nationalismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Nationalism.
It was opposed to appeasement of India's
Muslims. The BJS also favored a
uniform civil code governing personal law
matters for both Hindus and
Muslims, wanted to ban cow slaughter and end the
special status given to
the Muslim-majority state of Jammu and
Kashmirhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir.
The BJS founded the Hindutva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva agenda
which became the wider political expression of
India's Hindu majority. His
legacy still remains influential among the conservative
members within the
Congress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syama_Prasad_Mookerjee

4. I have pointed out to you that the very fact
a Presidential Order was
issued on 10th August 1950 barely seven months
after the Constitution came
into force, negating benefits to dalits of all
other religions other than
hindus, itself is proof that the Constitution as
adopted by the Constituent
Assembly did indeed provide for social and economic
benefits to dalits of
all religions. If you will kindly go through the
Constitution and the
Directive Principles, you may kindly observe
that they are religion neutral
http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p04.html


5.You state You are asking a rhetoric
question: ?If dalit christians were
excluded by the Constitution what was the need
for this Order?? I think you
will have to first prove that they were in fact
not excluded by the
Constitution.
Please do so.

Here is my response:
a) kindly refer to Article 15 which prohibits
discrimination on the grounds
of religion:
Article 15 in The Constitution Of India 1949
15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of
religion, race, caste, sex
or place of birth
(1) http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1942013/ The State shall not
discriminate against any citizen on grounds only
of religion, race, caste,
sex, place of birth or any of them
(2) http

Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

On 2 Sep 2013  J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:

Having lived and studied in Poona, I can say that I KNOW about Poona.

I can safely state that I did NOT know about caste among the Poona Goan 
Catholics.

I agree absolutely with Marshall.

I am sure that Marshall will agree with me that our school St. Vincents remains 
the best.

We did not even bother about the religion of our classmates.

All that IMHO started when the SS and BJP used religion to push their political 
agenda; similar to the MGP

Of course, I cannot comment about the 16th century.

I was not around at that time.

jc


My Questions to jc:

1. Have you ever lived in Velim, Goa?

2. Have you attended the Velim church on a feast day? Did you observe the short 
procession on 3rd December (Feast of St. Francis Xavier) and/or the long 
procession on 8th December (Feast of Immaculate Conception), the Santos Passos 
on Palm Sunday and Good Friday? Did you notice that there are two Confrarias in 
the parish with the vestments (opa-mursa) in red-and-white (subaltern) and 
all-red (major)?

3. Did you know that only a chardo is eligible to be a member of the major 
confraria and only a non-chardo (sudir, kunbi, mhar) can become a member of the 
subaltern confraria?

4. Do you know that for the last few years the parish priests have been trying 
to demolish this caste barrier between the confrarias, but the Carambolim 
zonkars (your clan) are opposing the move?

5. Do you know that a couple of years ago, during St. Francis Xavier Novena, 
after the preacher tried to explain to the congregation the incompatibility of 
castes with Catholicism and advocated the opening of membership of both the 
confrarias to all the parishioners, a Carambolim zonkar rushed to assault the 
priest?

6. In spite of all this, would you still refuse to admit that casteism is 
practised in the Catholic church itself, at least in Velim?   

7. Would you still say that you have not seen any casteism in the village of 
Velim?

Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Marshall,
I do not know about Poona, but I cannot agree with you
that there is no casteism among Goan Christians in Bombay. I have lived in
Bombay among Goans hailing from all parts of Goa at the Goan Society Bldg.,
Chira Bazar.
Your challenge that I should show you one sentence in the
Bible to the effect that Christianity recognises castes is just ridiculous, to
say the least. Please note that (1) the last word in the Bible was written not
later than the first century AD and, although the Caste system has been 
prevalent
in India for a few millennia, the word caste itself was not used in
this sense earlier than in the sixteenth century, (2) everything
mentioned in the Bible relates to the region of West Asia, Egypt and Rome;
there is no connection with India where the system was prevalent, (3) going by
your logic, one could claim that Mass, Eucharist, confession etc. are not
recognised by Christianity, since these words too do not find mention in the
Bible.
You say that the Christian community is fighting for parity
in economic benefits and assistance to all dalits irrespective of religion. How
is this possible in relation to Christian dalits? For example, how do you
identify a Christian dalit? On what basis would you put a tag of Christian
dalit on a Goan Christian Mahar whose forefathers were converted in the
sixteenth century?
Your statement, “Nowhere has it been claimed that there
are castes in christianity as you have erroneously surmised. So far as the
Church is concerned, it is obvious that the Church is seized of the issue and
is working towards total eradication.” is self-contradictory.  How can one 
eradicate something that does not
exist in the first place? Have you heard of Confrarias in Goan Churches? Do you
know that membership of these bodies is strictly caste-based? Or is it your
contention that churches are distinct from Christianity? Why did it take the
Church over four centuries to be seized of a “non-existent” issue? The
elevation of a dalit to the position of Archbishop of Hyderabad is nothing to
gloat about, but what is galling is that this appointment was opposed by his
predecessor who had scaled the highest rung in the episcopal hierarchy. Also
that a priest should have predicted that the new Archbishop would not last more
than five years. And  he did not do just a
fairly good but an excellent job.
You are harping on “influence of hindutva
forces” but no evidence is forthcoming. When I talked of influence of Christian
members you wanted documentary proof. But, for your contention no such proof is
considered necessary!!! What you “reliably
understand’ is valid proof but published work cited by others carries no 
weight!!
Chinese Whispers?
If Articles 25  30 have nothing to do with
reservations or benefits for dalit christians, why did you bring them here at
all?
Is it difficult to understand that the Christian
representatives did not (or could not) ask for any benefits to be  specifically 
given to Christian dalits for the
simple reason that Christianity does not recognise castes? How could they
possibly ask for benefits to a “non-existent” group?
You are asking a rhetoric question: “If dalit christians
were excluded by the Constitution what was the need for this Order?” I think
you will have to first prove that they were in fact not excluded by the
Constitution. Please do so.
Your statement, I am afraid neither you nor Santosh have
been able to provide documentaryevidence to support your contention that the 
Christian representatives did not
press for protection of dalit christians. From all evidence so far the contrary
is proved does not pass muster. Please provide the evidence to show that they
did, in fact, press for protection of *Dalit Christians*/*Scheduled Caste 
Christians*/*Oppressed Christians*. 
 
Regards,
Sebastian Borges
 

On 1 Sep 2013  Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Prof Borges

I am in total agreement with you when you state that casteism is practised
in the Church in certain parts of India. So far as Tamil Nadu is concerned
I have heard about it first hand from priests and nuns who have worked
there as from the media. So far as Goa Is concerned, I admit my ignorance
as I have never lived there except for short holidays but I have heard
about stray cases.

In Poona where I grew up, it was non-existent. So too in Bombay where I
have been living for the past 19 years.

I stand by my statement that when Fr Jerome stated that Christianity does
not recognize castes, he was making a factual statement. If you can show me
one sentence from the Bible which shows that Christianity recognises
castes, I am willing to rescind my views. One needs to make a distinction
between what  religion stands for and what are some deviations in the
practice of the religion on the ground. Any person who has a fairly good
knowledge of India's social structure will understand that it is not only
hinduism that has been been plaqued by casteism. Even egalitarian

[Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

? And how do the fundamental rights
to practice, propagate and profess one's religion and to establish and
administer educational institutions provide any solace to the Dalit
Christians? Aren't these too just tools in the hands of the upper caste
Christians? Do they benefit the Dalits in any small way? Therefore, the
question that arises is: In this bargain, who gained and at whose cost?

Sebastian Borges
 
On  29 Aug 2013 Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: 

Some longstanding members of Goanet might remember that the main issue here was
debated many years ago in this forum. At that time it was pointed out that Fr.
Jerome D'Souza, one of the Christian members had objected to including Dalit
Christians in the list of Scheduled Castes on the theoretical grounds that
there is no caste in Christianity. The evidence that was cited at that time to
support this fact was an article written in 2005 by an American Jesuit scholar
and professor of Boston College named Fr. John Francis Izzo. Here is the link
to that article, entitled Dalit Means Broken in a prominent
Catholic magazine:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/518/article/dalit-meansbroken

Here is an article on this by Madhu Chandra:

http://www.countercurrents.org/chandra160707.htm

Here is an article in India Today that clarifies further any ambiguity that
there might be about the role played by the Christian members of the
Constituent assembly in excluding Dalit Christians from the Schedule Castes
list:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/disgruntled-dalit-christians-seek-inclusion-of-community-to-scheduled-caste-list/1/288775.html
 
On 31 Aug 2013  Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote:

2. Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual.


 
On 29 Aug 2013  Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote:


Seats in certain constituencies where they were in a
majority /
large numbers were also reserved for members of the SC/ST in view of their
peculiar disabilities. It should be noted here that there was at this point
of time no distinction made between religions. All members of ST/ST of
whatever religious persuasions were extended the same benefits.

However, this status quo was upturned suddenly on 10th August 1950 by a
Presidential Order, mark you, and not by Parliamentary legislation,
excluding persons professing religions like christianity, buddhism, islam
and sikhism from availing of reservations and benefits. There was no
discussion, no debate, no circulation of white papers, simply nothing. The
logic and reasoning that was given was that except for hinduism all other
religions did not recognise castes.


3. If Prof Borges were to acquaint himself with Articles 25   
30, he
would perhaps realise that these are fundamental rights given to practice,
propagate and profess one's religion and to establish and administer
educational institutions. They do not provide for government support,
reservation and assistance to the poor and needy like the dalits.

4. The Indian Constitution was adopted on 26th November, 1949 and came into
effect on 26th January 1950. At this point of time ALL dalits of whatever
religion were entitled to reservations and benefits. This was suddenly
changed on 10th August 1950, seven months later, NOT by an Act of
Parliament but by a Presidential Order.
 
Regards,

Marshall
---

 
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

There
were a few Christian members in the Constituent Assembly. Prominent among
these were Dr. H.C. Mookherjee (W. Bengal), Mr. Joseph Alban D'Souza (Bombay) 
and
Rev. Jerome D'Souza SJ (Madras).  It is
difficult to guess whether Mookherjee, being a Protestant from Bengal, was
acquainted with caste discrimination among Christians. JAD'Souza too might not
have reckoned that the Caste distinction among Goan and Manglorean Catholics was
serious enough to mar the egalitarian character of Christianity. But the same
consideration cannot be given to the reverend, since there exist separate
churches and cemeteries for dalits in Tamil Nadu to this day! But then, being a
Catholic priest, he could not be expected to admit this fact. Moreover, it
would have been a bad advertisement for the Faith, since it was the general 
impression that Scheduled
caste Hindus converted to Christianity in order to escape the oppression by
caste Hindus.
Perhaps,
I am putting the cart before the horse. The debates of the Constituent Assembly
are very instructive in this regard. The necessity of reservations for the SCs
was a general consensus. However, Mookherjee said that in a secular state 
minorities
should not be recognised on the basis of religion. Christian masses, he said,
are not interested in reservations; all they asked for was food, clothing, a
shelter over their heads, medical aid and good roads. Their interests were
secure in the hands of the majority community which had been very generous 
toevery one of the minority
communities. He also felt that minorities would be wise to trust the majority
community, and win its good-will if they wanted to live in peace and honour in
this country.For this Dr. Mookherjee was hailed by Sardar Patel as the great
patriotic Christian leader.Fr. Jeromereferred to the multiple
signs of good-will on the part of the majority communityand fully
backed Dr. Mookherjee in his decision that there should be no reservation of 
seats.
According to him, a man is to be assisted because he is poor, because his birth
and upbringing have not given him the opportunity to make progress, socially,
politically and educationally; it should not matter whether he be a Christian,
or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Brahmin or non-Brahmin, or a Scheduled Caste member.
He went on to say that it
is not we (the Christians) who are taking a  risk, it is the
majority community that is undertaking a responsibility!
J A D'Souza does not appear to have participated in the debate.

Some
members like Guptanath Singh (Bihar) were more open-minded. He said that those
classes who are the backbone of Indian society - agricultural, pastoral or
artisan classes - though they are not counted as Scheduled Castes or Tribes
should be given some opportunities to serve in government services. He proposed
the addition of and
such other castes who are educationally and socially backwardafter Scheduled
Castes and Scheduled Tribes.
But,
unlike the Christian leaders, others were not as gullible. Like Christian 
Dalits,
the Sikh Dalits  too were excluded from
reservations because, according to Sardar Patel,  untouchability is not 
recognised in the Sikh
religion. The Sikhs felt that if these Scheduled Castes who have been converted
to Sikhism are not given the same benefits as the Scheduled Castes have been,
there was a possibility of their reverting to the Hindu Scheduled Castes and
merging along with them. Therefore, Sardar Hukam Singh, a Sikh leader from East
Punjab, fought tooth and nail to overturn this in respect to four backward Sikh
castes namely, the Mazhabis, Ramdasis, Kabirpanthis and Sikligars of East
Punjab.  And he succeeded!
Had
the Christian leaders, especially Fr. Jerome, adhered to the reality and 
followed the example of Hukam Singh, history
would have been different.
 
More
details may be accessed at the following links:
http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/790979/
http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol10p7a.htm
 
It now transpires that Marshall knew all this. So why the question? If Articles 
25  30 were a boon to the Christians, why are we fighting to obtain 
reservations for Dalit Christians today? Did these Dalits not exist in 1947?  


Sebastian
Borges
  

On 27 Aug 2013 2 Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote:

Sebastian Borges:

As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned,
let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by
the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the
Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste
discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a
Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches
are pressing to reverse this provision!

Response:

The above statement comes as a great revelation to me. Could Mr Borges
kindly direct me to documents / literature / information where I could
access this
 information?

Marshall



Again on 28 Aug 2013  Marshall Mendonza mmendonz

Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

My response to J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com of Goanet 26 Aug
2013:


 
JC 2: Was Goa a participant in that Constituent Assembly?
If not, why is that argument being placed here?
SB Response: (a) You did not specify that you deplore the mention and use of
The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity only in Goa. (b) The decisions of the
Constituent Assembly affect Goan dalit Christians as well.  
 
JC 4: So, I assume that you have reported this alleged
act to the Police.
SBR: I have no locus standi here, since the paraphernalia of the maand did not
belong to me or to my family. Moreover, it was not even a case of theft since
the credulous old lady of the house willingly handed over the things on being
told by the Rev. Father that they are the handiwork of the devil. In Ambaulim
too the modus operandi must have been similar; to the best of my knowledge and 
belief, there was no forcible
iconoclastic activity similar to that of the sixteenth century padres. 
 
JC 6: How do you know for sure that it [the desecration
of the Cuncolim temple 400 years ago] occurred? Hey, have you not heard that in
Dec 1961, Portugal had amassed battalions of soldiers in Goa and had set about
massacring thousands of innocent Goans. 
SBR: I am sure that the event occurred because Fr. Thomas Stephens wrote about
it in a letter to his brother on 24th October 1683; the incident had occurred
on 25th July the same year i.e. barely 3 months earlier. Fr. Stephens, a Jesuit
himself, was a confrere of the “martyrs” at Rachol. The letter is reproduced in 
full in
his Christian Puranna (1907) edited by Joseph L. Saldanha (p. XXXI). This is the
relevant excerpt: . With these, two other Brahmins and a boy of
the same caste and descended from the very people of Cuncolim, whom however the
inhabitants did not spare on account of their great hatred for the Fathers. 
Another
boy of excellent character and tried virtue, named Alphonsus, fell in with the
enemy, and because he would not give up the breviary of Fr. Peter Berno, the
tendons of his hands and knees were cut. .. Fr. Peter Berno, a 
Lombard
from near Lago Maggiore, proved himself such a strenuous and zealous soldier of
Christ, that it was believed of him that within a few months he would leave but
few pagans in his parish. Not long before, he had accompanied the Portuguese
army and was the first to set fire to the Cuncolim temple. He had also slain a
cow upon the altar of the idol so as to clear the place of the superstitious
people. He was therefore hated by the infidels, as was seen from the horrible
treatment of his body; for they plucked one of his eyes, cut off the whole of
his skull and committed other acts of atrocity which I am loath to recount.
  
Your facebook forward about December 1961 is just some
rubbish meant to hide the truth. Can you deny (1) that Salazar had ordered a
scorched earth policy in Goa, the destruction of buildings of non-military
Portuguese heritage,  (2) that
preparations for this had in fact been made with barrels of petrol being
transported to the Palacio do Idalcao, (3) that the Governor Vassalo e Silva did
not carry out these orders, (4) that upon repatriation to Portugal, he was 
accordingly
court-martialled and exiled, (5) that he returned and regained his military
rank only in 1974, upon the fall of the Salazar regime? 
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Maan: Translation of Ch.1 of Goencho Mull Avaz

[Sebastian Borges]

 monthly about a year ago. This boy was
persecuted so systematically that a complaint would reach every Seminary that
he joined, within months! Thus thwarted, he was driven to suicide. But friends
and relatives managed to dissuade him from taking such a drastic step, and he 
has
gone to work in the Gulf. 
 
10.
But why only waddle in the cesspool of the past, instead of looking hopefully
to the future?
 
Wonderful
suggestion worthy of a standing ovation. Let us eschew all discussion of
historical facts, especially those not palatable to us, and concentrate 
exclusively
on future hopes and the utopia of our dreams.
 
 
Sebastian
Borges

Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Jose Colaco,
I have always believed that the English language is
written in only one script - the Roman; I presume Romi is your way of saying 
Roman. Now, from your statement especially when it is written in the
Romi script, I reckon it is written in some other script/s as well. Kindly name
this/these additional script/s used for English and oblige.
 
Re: Caste system - (1) If you deplore the mention of any
term, I would say that the best course for you would be to desist from 
participating
in any discussion wherein the term is necessarily used.
(2) Considering that you had yourself used the term
earlier in an article, I put the two statements together and presumed that you
are under the mistaken impression that the dissipation has done its work and
the discrimination is a thing of the past. But that, unfortunately, has not
happened. Hence my reference to wishful thinking.
(3) Perhaps, like me, you feel that Christianity being an
egalitarian religion, caste discrimination has no place therein. But,
considering that it does exist and has been existing for centuries, what should
be our response as Catholics? Should we close our eyes to the happenings and 
pretend
that it does not exist, because it should not have, or should we do something
for its abolition? 
(4) As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned, let us 
not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the 
Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the 
Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among 
Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, 
the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! 

 
Re: documentary proof - You are a lawyer, I am not. But
there is no question that an accused person is innocent until proved guilty. 
Yet,
a person who himself knows that he is guilty, or his lawyer, can take shelter
under this axiom and demand documentary proof; would this not signify a
criminal bent of mind? Is it not, therefore, a convenient argument for a
criminal or his lawyer to escape punishment? It is not always possible to
provide documentary proof; and such is the case with the issue you have taken
up and demanded one. In one of my posts I have related a reported act of Fr.
Conceicao D'Silva, that he carted away the paraphernalia of the disbanded maandd
in Kumbiabhat. What sort of documentary proof could anyone produce? To drive
home this point, I have cited three situations where documentary proof would
not be available. The first situation, though hypothetical, is not too far
fetched. Should the pickpocket be declared innocent for want of documentary
proof, in spite of being caught with the res furtiva? The second incident
actually happened right in front of my house; the priest concerned is Fr. 
Conceicao
D'Silva, then Chaplain of Ambelim; and he came at the request of the
householders. When I relate this incident to friends they do not believe me
since, according to them, a Cross cannot be haunted and hence exorcising it is
just out of the question. What documentary proof could I produce to convince
them that the incident did in fact occur? The third incident occurred over 400 
years ago. If I am not able to
produce documentary proof would it mean that this incident did not actually
occur?
 
Hope I have clarified the matter to your satisfaction. If
not, would be pleased to clarify further. Do advise.

 
With regards,
Sebastian Borges



On 25 August 2013 : Jose Colaco cola...@gmail.com wrote:

 

Dear Sebastian Borges,

I have always believed that English is a relatively facile language, especially 
when it is written in the Romi script.

So, when I state that  I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu 
Caste System wrt
Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special 
privileges by way of Reservations , I believe that reasonable individuals 
would understand IT to be a statement of my position and NOT wishful thinking.

Now, 
I asked Augusto Pinto a few question related to his posting. The questions, 
inter alia, were (and still are) as follows: 1: what specifically have the two 
priest done? 2: do you have documentary proof?

Would you please clarify WHY you categorized the second question as being a 
very convenient argument for a defence lawyer having a criminal bent of mind; 
with this ploy, any culprit could go scot free

Is it that you are
 blissfully unaware of the prevailing Law of the Land in which you live; a law 
which considers an accused as being innocent (and NOT a culprit) unless PROVED 
to be guilty?

I hope I am wrong on this but I wonder whether you have intentionally made a 
simple matter complicated   whether you are shooting from the hip without 
reading and digesting the matter.

the best of wishes

jc

---

Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull

[Sebastian Borges]

 
On 23 Aug
2013  J. Colaco  
jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:


1. I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt
Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special
privileges by way of Reservations.

2. do you have documentary proof?
 
Comments:
1.  This is nothing short of wishful
thinking. Just because I deplore the name of a thing, will it disappear just
into thin air? The caste system has been and is existing in the Catholic Church
in Goa, and jc knows it! Since he mentions Christianity, let him be advised
that in the State of Tamil Nadu, there exist separate churches and cemeteries
for the dalits!
Moreover, (a) the fifth Council of Goa (1606) had decreed that no low
caste Indian was to be admitted to the priesthood, (b) by a special
dispensation (issued in 1623), Pope Gregory XV allowed the Brahmin converts to 
wear the
sacred thread and other caste markings, and [hold your breath] (c) in his
article The Caste System of IndiaJose Colaco himself wrote A curious 
oxymoron is the presence and practice of the caste
system among the Roman Catholics of Goa and
Mangalore. For centuries after conversion to Catholicism, caste discrimination
was practiced even within the precincts of the Church! This is slowly 
dissipating.Unfortunately for him, the Past Tense [was] is a lie and the
supposed dissipation is not happening even in his own native village of Velim, 
the chief resistance coming from his own clan that traces its ancestry to 
Carambolim. 
 
2.  This is a very convenient argument for a defence lawyer
having a criminal bent of mind; with this ploy, any culprit could go scot free.
Consider the following instances: (a) a pickpocket flicks your wallet and, when
caught with it, demands documentary proof that the wallet is yours. (b) some 
years ago, I have seen one of the priests exorcising a Cross
in the front yard of a neighbour by striking it repeatedly with a rope
accompanied by some prayers, barely 50 metres away from the place I was 
sitting in my
own house. (c) I claim that the so-called martyrs of Cuncolimhad earlier 
desecrated the Shatadurga temple there. What
sort of documentary proof would be valid in each of these cases? 
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Maan: Translation of Ch.1 of Goencho Mull Avaz

[Sebastian Borges]

 (telephonically) about this case from a priest friend at
the Seminary, a Bamon. What he said is instructive; his opinion was that they
are uncouth, they lack in manners and hence not suitable for
priesthood.
 
 The second case is from Raia and
was reported by Marcos Gonsalves in Gulab Konkani monthly about a year ago.
This boy was persecuted so systematically that a complaint would reach every
Seminary that he joined, within months! Thus thwarted, he was driven to suicide.
But friends and relatives managed to dissuade him from taking such a drastic
step, and he went to work in the Gulf. 
 
7.  Please cite the records. Attempts
by whom? With what result? And why do you want to bring the State into matters
which are exclusively the business of the Church? 
8.  What
we are talking about is the attitude of the Church as an institution, and not
individual priests. Your statement in no way contradicts mine. Here is what I
had said:  There is a large Chapel in Khursabhat dedicated to Holy
Cross with annual feast on 10th May and Santos passos on the third
Sunday of Lent. It is close to 100 years old and Sunday Mass has been
celebrated there continuously for over 80 years. For about three decades after
Liberation, it had the benefit of a resident Chaplain. These priests
contributed tremendously to the uplift and progress of the community,
especially the educational development of the children.
 
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] (no subject). Was: Maan: Translation of Ch.1 of Goencho Mull Avaz

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear
Augusto,
Methinks
you are barking up the wrong tree. It is not the DUTY of the Church to publicize
the government schemes beneficial to its faithful, but if it does so that would
be SERVICE. The Government does not routinely send its notifications to the
churches. But it does send them to Panchayats whose DUTY it is to publicize
them; but all they do, if at all, is to paste them on their Notice Board which,
unfortunately, nobody reads. However, whenever the Government or the Panchayat
sends a notice to the church with a request to read the same at the Mass, the
priests do comply. This is not to say that discrimination against Kunbis does
not exist in the Church; it does exist even in the Seminary (Rachol). And I can
cite two recent instances in this context.
 
A boy
from a neighbouring ward (grandson of Kumbiabhat) was determined to become a
priest. But, for whatever reason, he was expelled from the Seminary. He joined
an Order, but was hounded out from there as well. He tried several Orders with
the same result. His brother had committed suicide, and I do not know whether
this was held against him. But, finally, he did succeed with an Order that does
not have representation in Goa. However, he was refused Ordination at his own
parish church (Velim). Even our Archbishop having declined, the Ordination
Ceremony was performed at Old Goa by the Bishop of Bangalore! At that time, he
did relate his tribulations on the way to the Altar. This happened two years
ago. Once I enquired (telephonically) about this case from a priest friend at
the Seminary, a Bamon. What he said is instructive; his opinion was that they
are uncouth, they lack in manners and hence not suitable for
priesthood.
 
 The second case is from Raia and
was reported by Marcos Gonsalves in Gulab Konkani monthly about a year ago.
This boy was persecuted so systematically that a complaint would reach every
Seminary that he joined, within months! Thus thwarted, he was driven to suicide.
But friends and relatives managed to dissuade him from taking such a drastic
step, and he went to work in the Gulf. 
 
So,
it would be wrong to say that Church discrimination against the Gawdas happened
in the past; it does continue to this day!
 
Sebastian
Borges
 
On  21 Aug 2013 augusto
pinto pinto...@gmail.com wrote:  
Dear Sebastian

I repeat what I said elsewhere that I believe that Adv Joao is at least
partly motivated by the fact that Christian Gawda pride can get its best
support from the Govt. and not from the Church through the instrument of
Reservations for Scheduled Tribes - a reservation which cuts across
religious grounds. I also believe that the Church has not sufficiently
publicized the Govt. schemes so that the Gawdas can avail of these. I
understand that this is sheer cussedness on their part.

However I also concur with what Adv. Joao says regarding the systematic way
in which the Church has discriminated against the Gawdas. This is a shame
against the Catholic community.

While this has happened in the past what I am indignant about now is the
'spiral of silence' that has greeted the publication of Adv John's essay.
It seems that instead of addressing the injustices that Gawdas face
socially economically and politically, their voice when not deliberately
suppressed, is simply ignored by not just the Church clergy but also the
more affluent of its members

Augusto
--

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Maan: Translation of Ch.1 of Goencho Mull Avaz

[Sebastian Borges]

 of its own. [In the 1950's their plays were written and directed
by Maestro Josinho’s father who was the choir-master of the Chapel.] But the 
Maandd
has since disappeared without leaving a trace. I do not know which priests
worked for its abolition; but there is a story doing the rounds here: the
paraphernalia of the Maandd which were stored in a house in the vicinity were
carted away by Fr. Conceicao D'Silva under the pretext that they were Devil's
creation and, therefore, needed to be burnt.
Hence
my belief that Ambaulim and Kumbiabhat are not isolated cases, neither the
priests listed by adv. Fernandes the exceptions. The priests were not
freelancing of their own accord, but were working to a set pattern with the
active support and encouragement from their superior authorities. It was
certainly a premeditated programme. Whether one applauds or condemns it will
depend on how one perceives the result; i.e. as prising them away from their
roots or as bringing them into the mainstream. But it has certainly
led to the erosion of some facets of ancient Goan culture which cannot be
retrieved since it was passed on by word of mouth by a people who had been kept
illiterate for centuries. Such a tragedy would not befall Bamon culture since
they have always been literate. Oral tradition needs to be revised periodically
if it is to survive; a hiatus of a few years would suffice to obliterate it as
has been experienced by adv. Fernandes when he tried to retrieve some of it. Had
his subjects/ informants been literate, his task would have been infinitely
simpler.
But
I would not buy the argument that the activity has disrupted the unity,
destroyed the leadership or increased the feeling of being marginalized among
the Kunbi/Gavda community. Hence, I feel that your indignant outburst is
clearly out of place.
Finally,
I have to ask you a favour, Augusto. Please translate Fr. Ferrao's research
paper Destroying the Gawda’s ‘Maan’: Ethical or Immoral? into
simple English so as to make it comprehensible to ordinary mortals like me with
limited resources of vocabulary and grammatical acumen.
Sebastian
Borges
On
13 Aug 2013 augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com
wrote:

Dear All,

I'm dumbfounded by the reception to this article. I'd have thought that
lots and lots of thoughtful people who are the members of this discussion
group would be worried about the fact that a large section of our community
who for ages have been oppressed are still feeling marginalized and
oppressed but the conspiracy of silence that has greeted this very painful
expression of dignified anger has met with stony silence.

Is it that everyone actually believes that the Gawdas deserve what they
got; or is it that nobody wants to take on the might of the Church which is
what Fr Conceicao D'Silva who is the mastermind of the financial cash cow -
theCruz dos Milagres project in Old Goa; or Fr Luis Coutinho who is known
to be close to the Varca strongman and otherwise who has his political
antennae finely tuned?

Either way I am not impressed with the callous behavior of our
intelligentsia.

Augusto

On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 8:07 AM, augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com wrote:

 Book excerpt:

 Maan / Maand

 By Adv. John Fernandes

 Translated by Augusto Pinto

 (Adv. Joao alias John Fernandes, Christian Gawda activist, has compiled
 the folk songs of the Christian Gawdas in a book called ?Goencho Mull
 Avaz?  
 The commentary accompanying the songs and the accounts of these Christian
 Gawda folk practices is thought provoking. What follows is a translation
 of the first chapter of Goencho Mull Avaz? named ?Maan / Maand? a word
 which has multiple meanings in Konkani.  This chapter explains some
of
 those meanings and describes how it was wilfully suppressed by some
priests
 in the 1990s)


 The Maan is a place sacred for all Goan Gawdas: Gawdas who belong to both
 Christian as well as Hindu faiths. Other Goan communities also had similar
 sacred places which they would pronounce  Maand although most are now
 extinct except insofar as village-shops are often still called Maand on
 account of the fact that in the hoary past the Mand used to be the
 meeting places where commerce also was conducted.


 I will describe the practices of the Maan of the Christian Gawdas, most
 particularly the Maan of the Ambaulim Gawdas. All the folk festivals and
 celebrations of the Gawdas, be they the Gawda Dhalos, Intruz (Carnival),
 Intrumezi (which in other villages is called Zagor) ? are intimately
 associated with the Maan. This is because most of the celebrations of the
 Gawdas would take place on the Maan, and so all them would gather
 together there. All the Gawda folk arts, folksongs and folk dances, the
 various musical instruments, musical lore, all blossomed and found
fruition
 at and because of the Maan.


 Around 1994, the Church, or at any rate some of its priests, began to
 attack the Maan saying that it was the abode of the Devil (Devncharachi
 Suvaat) and to have

Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker

[Sebastian Borges]

 
Santosh seems to have hit the nail right on the head. The
rambling essay is too shallow to merit the attention of scholars. Despite its
sensational revelation, it has been rightly ignored by the press in Goa;
however, a Konkani (Roman script) weekly has published a gist which is worse
than the original.
The absence of the word Hindu in Indo-Portuguese
historiography has been cited to buttress the claim that followers of this
religion did not exist in sixteenth century Goa. If this reasoning were to be
accepted, one could also claim that there were no Konkani speakers in Goa,
since this word too does not occur in that historiography; even its grammar
printed in 1642 refers to it as Canarim. 
Apparently, both Dirks and Bhabha (not Baba) have been
misreported. Neither is caste the product of British colonization nor is the 
caste system the fruit of British orientalism. The British certainly did not 
invent
caste; even the word was adapted from casta (stock, breed) that the Portuguese
had used for the phenomenon that they encountered upon their arrival here, the
allusion, perhaps, being to the fact that marriage (hence breeding) was
confined within these entities. The British (towards the end of the 19th 
century!) merely compiled exhaustive lists of castes and subcastes existing in
the vast region under their rule, for the purpose of census enumeration, in
pursuance of their own agenda. The fact that the water-tight (in the marriage
market) castes and subcastes (zatis) have survived among Goan Catholics 
(converted
in the 16th century!) should suffice to show that they antedate the
arrival of the Portuguese. The caste names of Catholics are found only among
the Hindus. Even untouchability of the Catholic Mhar, albeit in a milder form,
survived until as late as the first half of the 20th century. Caste distinction
also received ecclesiatic approval in Goa: membership of Church confrarias is
caste-based, lower-caste boys were not ordained priests until very recently 
etc. 
The essay claims that the temples that were destroyed
were not Hindu temples but of smaller, different and independent cults and
religions which were often at war with each other. There are thousands of 
conflicting
sects of Christian religion today, and many of these exist side-by-side in NE
India. Assuming that a church is destroyed by ruffians in Nagaland, would it be
correct to say that it was not a Christian place of worship but, say, a 
Pentecostal prayer-house?
Claims about forced conversions
and demolishing of the Hindu temples are ascribed to Hindu historians alone.
Why? Has any Catholic historian debunked these claims? Are those atrocities
(e.g. the desecration of the Cuncolim temple which led to the slaying of the
perpetrators, later beatified as martyrs) not contained in the narratives of
the missionaries themselves? 
The Christians too having forgotten
their own origins are wounded... This is contrary to fact, at least to some
extent. The upper castes, being literate, certainly know by name the patriarch
who was obliged to embrace Christianity. A prominent Brahmin lady writer claims
to be originally a Padiyar. The chardos of Cuncolim join their Hindu kinsmen 
from
the respective vangodd during the Sotrio procession. The subalterns visit (now
clandestinely) their family deities at least on aupicious occasions. In recent
decades many of these have been deliberately made to forget their roots by
overzealous padres.
In painting of the
Pre-Portuguese Goa as Hindu, there is a direct attempt to turn the historical
facts about conversion against the Church and the Christians of today. In fact,
it is the Church (and some misguided lay Christians) that is inviting the 
opprobrium
upon herself and the Goan Christians by defending, and somehow justifying, the
excesses committed by the European missionaries. The easiest and rational
solution would be to disown those unchristian atrocities since they were not
committed by the ancestors of Goan Christians. The bone of contention then
disappears in a jiffy.
There is an urgent imperative
to generate a therapeutic dialogue (between Catholics and Hindus) that can
respond to the wounded memories that disturb our society in Goa. And this
essay is expected to provide the initial push in that direction. But can it
achieve the desired purpose? By saying that his religion did not exist in the
sixteenth century, when in fact his temples have been standing where they are
for much longer, are you creating an atmosphere conducive to dialogue? Or are
you hurting his ego and alienating him even more? This calls for a deeper
cogitation.  
 
Sebastian Borges
 
 
On 27 Jul 2013, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote:


George,

The problem I have with some of this so-called research about
Goan?history, whether it is church-related or otherwise, is that it is?merely
the expression of somebody's subjective opinion pulled out of?thin air and
dripping with either left-wing or right-wing ideology

Re: [Goanet] [GOABOOKCLUB] Re: goycho Mull Avaz, book released.?

[Sebastian Borges]

Friends,


Some incorrect information seems to have inadvertently cropped up in
Domnic’s post.
The tree found in front of churches is not Rui (Calotropis gigantea) but Maddi
(Sterculia foetida). Cow’s foot tree (Bauhinia forficata) is again a different
tree altogether. Here are the differences between them.

Rui (Konk.) or Giant milkweed (Eng.) is a large shrub growing upto 4 m. tall. 
It has clusters
of waxy flowers that are either white or lavender in colour. Each flower
consists of five pointed petalsand a small, elegant crown
rising from the centre, which holds the stamens. The plant has oval, light
green leaves and milky stem. In Goa it is found growing by the roadside. If a
leaf is broken or plucked, a milky sap oozes out which has the property of
healing sores. Please confirm at: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calotropis_gigantea

Maddi
(Konk.), Java Olive,  Wild almond tree (Eng.) is a tall,
straight tree. It grows freely in Burma, Ceylon and South India. The grey bark
is smooth, spotted with brown and faintly ridged. The branches are whorled and
usually horizontal. Leaves crowded
at the end of thick branchlets, digitately compound, about 20 cm. long;
leaflets 7-9, elliptic-lanceolate, acute or acuminate. Flowers small, 1.5-2.5
cm. diameter, purple, with offensive smell, in simple or compound racemes. Fruit
10-12.5 cm. long, ovate, beaked, woody, scarlet when ripe, seeds black, oblong,
smooth, arranged in two rows. Please confirm at: 
http://www.ntbg.org/plants/plant_details.php?plantid=10732 ;   
http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Java%20Olive.html   ;  
http://wikimapia.org/1770961/The-majestic-Sterculia-foetida-tree-Arossim-Chapel 
  ;  http://www.natureloveyou.sg/Sterculia%20foetida/Main.html
 
The tree
is invariably found growing straight in front of, but at some distance away 
from,  a church, a chapel or even a village cross whose
feast is celebrated; no other tree or structure is found in the intervening
space. The tree appears to have a very long life, hundreds of years.  I don't 
know the reason why this tree has been chosen for this position. The day before 
a Novena or Triduum begins, a ceremony is performed at
this tree. This ceremony or fama is also called maddi in Konkani (at least in
Salcete). 
Unlike
what Domnic has stated, the fruits are not edible. But, as Domnic has said, I
too remember having used the seeds as whistles; we would expose the white
kernel by rubbing hard one end of the black seed against a rough stone and then 
empty
out all the pulp with the help of a pin or stick. Don’t remember having eaten 
the
pulp. 
I notice
that the tree is  also called Kuvem ruk
or Nagin in Konkani (though I have never heard of these names) at the following
sites:
http://foter.com/Bangar/;  http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/2334259875/
Cow’s Foot Tree or Purple orchid tree is a small tree that grows 5-9 m tall. Its
leaves are 7-10 cm. long and shaped like a cow's hoof, which is distinctive to
the Bauhinia genus. Its
Brazilian name, pata de vaca,
translates to cow's foot. It produces large, drooping white flowers and a brown
seed pod resembling that of mimosa. It is called cow's hoof tree because its 
double-lobed leaves
resemble a cow's hoof.  Purple orchid tree (usually just called orchid tree) is
staggeringly beautiful when in bloom - and it blooms for several months! Orchid
tree grows 6-12 m. tall and 3-6 m. wide with a spreading crown of briefly
deciduous leaves which are 10-15 cm. across and rounded with lobed ends and
heart shaped bases. The flowers are reminiscent of showy orchids, with five
irregular, usually slightly overlapping petals in shades of magenta, lavender
or purplish blue.  The flowers
often make their first appearance in late winter while the tree is bare of
leaves. The blooming period then lasts until early summer. The flowers are 
7.6-12.7
cm. across and carried in clusters at the branch tips. A member of the bean
family, orchid tree produces flattened brown woody legumes (pods) up to 30.5 cm.
long. 
Clearly, this is different from
the tree that is found in front of churches. Please confirm 
at:http://www.sandiegozoo.org/CF/plants/species_detail232.html  ; 
http://www.floridata.com/ref/b/bauh_var.cfm

Sincerely,
Sebastian Borges



 On  Sunday, 26 May 2013 Domnic
Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote:

 the  Cow's-foot tree {Santam rukh-
the tree in front of 
churches/chapels
where the saint's picture/banner is put up before the  
feast.

I
think you are talking about Rui tree. These huge 
trees
were found in Church/Chapel compounds. In the olden days, outdoor 
classes
were conducted under such trees. Towards the end of the 19th 
century,
Latin classes in Saud Saibinnichem Kopel (Our Lady of Health 
Chapel)
in Mazalvaddo, Anjuna, were conducted under the umbrella of two huge Rui trees. 

There
were three huge Rui trees
by the
left side of Anjuna Church compound. When we attended Catechism 
classes,
we would pick up fallen fruits, which are yellowish

Re: [Goanet] WHO IS AFRAID OF 'MONOM'? ORFEO NEGRO - Brazilian movie -- hit song Manha De Carnaval!?

[Sebastian Borges]

The two words are pronounced differently in Salcete: mono = dumb; mhono = 
bogeyman. No masculine noun in Konkani ends in a nasal vowel. Mono is used both 
as a noun (dumb person) and as an adjective, whereas Mhono is used only as a 
noun.


Sebastian Borges


On Thursday, 6 December 2012 Wed, 5 Dec 2012  Silviano Barbosa 
goa...@hotmail.com wrote:


First of all Konkani words can have multiple meanings in Salcete and in Bardez.
In
 Salcete villages the Intruz (Carnaval) Monom or Mono, with an acute 
accent on second o makes it Monom, a feared figure at Carnaval time or
 boogey-man.
But if you have an acute accent on first o as  in Mo , yes the meaning is 
dumb certainly.
In Portuguese there are accents, so it conveys the clear word pronunciation. 
I don't know how they will differentiate it in Devanagri script.
But
 Mono can have 2 meanings. So when a Saxtti mother used to say to a 
child Baba mono etolo tuka khauncheak it means the boogey-man and not 
the dumb person.

[Goanet] Why abrupt changes in Roman script Konkani?

[Sebastian Borges]

 in
Roman script could correctly READ a Portuguese text.  The fact is that the 
Konkani phonetic system
is closer to the Portuguese than to the English one, especially as regards the
sound values of the vowels. Overall, it has aspects of both Portuguese and
English plus some more which are not found in either. Portuguese scores over
other European languages in having a single constant sound value for most 
letters
(i.e. except, a, e, o, c, g, s). But Portuguese sounds are too few to match the
entire gamut of Konkani phonetics. 
Therefore some adjustments had to be made; some of these are:  (a) The letters 
d, l, n, t have only soft
sounds in Portuguese, but Konkani has hard sounds as well. This problem was
solved by doubling the respective consonant for representing the hard sounds, i.
e. dd,  ll,  nn,  tt. 
[English has only hard sounds for d and t; none of the European
languages has sounds corresponding to the Konkani ll  and nn, in spite of the 
fact that ll and nn are used.] (b) Portuguese does not have any
aspirate consonants.  This deficiency was made good by adding an H to the 
respective
consonant. (c) In Portuguese, the letter H itself is silent, but to cover 
another deficiency, this was given the
plosive English sound. (d) Each of the six letters mentioned above were also 
assigned
single constant sounds (irrespective of position) when used for Konkani words. 
This holds true not only for the current
system but also for the system adopted by the missionaries. The missionaries 
took great pains to ensure that the Portuguese and Konkani systems do not lead 
to confusion even when used simultaneously. For example, they used ss between 
two vowels for the s sound, but never used a single s between two vowels for a 
z sound; similarly they used gue, gui (as in Portuguese) for ge, gi sounds but 
never used ge, gi for je, ji (as is done in Portuguese).



Sebastian Borges 






On 20 Nov 2012 20:42:47 +0530  Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Why abrupt
changes in Roman script Konkani? 

 

The 17th century saw the beginning of a large-scale book-printing in Goa, egged 
on
massively by the need to print Christian texts for the benefit of the newly
converted Christians. This time also saw a shift from the use of coercion to
that of religious education for conversions. Thus, a number of books were
printed in Konkani due to the initiative of, among others, Father Thomas
Stephens who, in 1640, produced the first Konkani Grammar ? the Arte de Lingua 
Canarim.

 



The letters K, W and Y are normally not used in Portuguese native words, except 
for
scientific terms and abbreviations for distances (Km) or weights (Kg).
 

 

In the entire ?Povitr Pustok?, I have not found the use of the letter ?y? 
because, as mentioned above, it is not used in Portuguese native speaking words 
on which Konkani in Roman script is based, and neither does it make sense 
because by using it we tend to destroy the Konkani language, which has a 
substantially long tradition. And traditions and customs are respected 
generally even while drafting laws and legislation.

 

Around five years ago, I remember it was announced that if two vowels came 
together, the
letter ?y? could be inserted in between them. But, if one knows and follows the 
Portuguese alphabet, there is no need to do it.

 

Presently, several Konkani writers have begun using the letter ?y? 
indiscriminately without any rhyme or reason. I have come across the following 
words (out of many), with their new version:

 

bebdikai ? bebdikay

boddai ? bodday

girestkai -
 girestkay

Julai (month) ? Julay

kortai - kortay

khuxalkai ? khuxalkay

mai - may

osmitai ? osmitay

pai - pay

purai - puray

sahitai - sahitay

sovostkai - sovostkay 

Sosnnikai - sosnnikay

Somudai ? somuday

Vattai ? vattay

 

In all these
words, the last two letters are pronounced as (ah-ee) e.g. Aitar (ah-ee-t?h-
?h-rre); 

 

Moriadik -
moryadik ? we don?t have to add a ?y? because the sound of ia is ee-ah.

 

Here are some
more examples with their new version:

 

avoi-bapui - avoy-bapuy

avoi-bapain - avoy-bapayn

doia ? doya

ezmanponn - yezmanponn

ieo ? yeo

ieta ? yeta

eukar ? yeukar

ievun - yevun

gaionn - gayonn

gheiat - gheyat

kariavoll - karyavoll

kednaim ? kednay

paim - pay

proitn ? proytn 

niall ?
 niyall

 



In view of the above observation, I strongly suggest that we stop using the 
letter ?y? in Konkani because it will neither serve nor suit any useful 
purpose. If at all, we are bent on using the letter ?y?, then we could as well 
shift to the English alphabet, and consequently take into serious consideration 
?but?, ?put?, ?foot?, etc. Because by merely adding ?y?, we are, by no means, 
standardising or improving the orthography of Konkani in the Roman script. And, 
what about the diacritic marks? BTW, I am for change but not for mixture of 
alphabets from different languages.

 

The process of standardising Konkani began after Liberation and the language

Re: [Goanet] Konkani's first free audio novelette ... Khand by Willy Goes

[Sebastian Borges]

Apropos Frederick FN Noronha  fredericknoro...@gmail.com
of Mon, 23 Jul 2012 

Dear FN, I joined this debate
because you specifically mentioned my name in one of your posts. I came in
hoping to broaden and deepen my understanding of the issue with the help of
information and insights which I expected from you. But I am disappointed! You
have provided nothing but imaginary bugbears, borrowed fears, half-baked
assertions and plain balderdash. In sum, this debate has been, I am
afraid, a colossal waste of time and band-width. And now you have brought in
some more inanities, tagged with emoticons! Emoticons are also a means to
absolve oneself of the responsibility for the statement made.

You say,  At the end of
the day (rather, each night) I have the uneasy task of teaching my son a
language which the State decides is his mother tongue but which is
as alien as Latin or Greek. The problem here is that you are trying to
teach your son something that you have yourself not learnt, and do not know.
Hiring professional help would have been the wise thing to do, both for your
child and for you.

 Your response to Point
No 3 -- raising more questions to meet a discussion -- gives me the feeling
that you are *pretending* to be asleep. I am definitely no expert in waking up
those who pretend to be asleep... This whole debate has
given the message, loud and clear, that you are talking in your sleep while
*pretending* to be awake. I had asked you to substantiate your statement with
details about the existence of Padribhas and Bamonbhas dialects in Goa. To the
best of my knowledge, this info is not available anywhere. But if sources could
be located, and a potential for sufficient data established, I could suggest
this topic for a (M.Phil. or Ph.D.) dissertation. But you only threw up a non 
sequitur.
I am really interested academically in this topic; and, therefore, would be
obliged to anyone coming forward with some useful inputs.

 I'm stuck at a more
fundamental level. My point is how do I manage to wake him up when he prefers
sleeping in bed to Sunday school and obligation I assure you that you
are not the only parent who has this problem. But does this happen only on
Sundays? If yes, the problem needs some analysis. The Sunday school lasts for
an hour at the most, whilst the Weekday school lasts for at least four. The
starting timings for either, I assume, are practically the same. Does it mean,
therefore, that your child detests the shorter Sunday school in Romi Konkani
more than he does the longer Weekday school in Devanagari Konkani?

 As far as the Church
books are concerned, these are, fortunately, in both the Romi and Devanagari
scripts of Konkani. The books that you are talking about here ara
Sunday school books. And when you say that they are in both the Romi and
Devanagari scripts OF Konkani what you mean to say is they are in
Konkani written in both the Romi ani Devanagari scripts.  But are the
dialects used in the two scripts different, i.e. Bardezi in Romi and Antruzi in
Devanagari? Remember your statement: Devanagari invariably gets linked to
the Antruzi dialect, … Romi is mostly tied to Bardezi. 

 From Romi Konkani, I'm
translating to Romi English  Why do you have to translate the Romi
Konkani to Romi English? The reason is very simple. Your problem is neither the
script nor the dialect; it is the *language*! You presume, rightly or wrongly,
that the only language your child understands is English. Hence, you try to
feed him Konkani with an English spoon; you transliterate the Devanagari Konkani
using Anglicized Romi orthography and translate Romi Konkani into Romi English!

I am inclined to agree, almost
in toto, with the post of Jose Colaco cola...@gmail.com
of the same date. But I think his point no. 3 has been misstated. With all due
regard for Jose Colaco's expertise with the English language, I am afraid that
it did not make sense in my not-so-perfect English. 

Sebastian Borges

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 
Frederick FN Noronha  fredericknoro...@gmail.com
wrote:







Dear Prof Borges, You have a number of points, but I'm sorry I cannot agree 
with you. At the end of the day (rather, each night) I have the uneasy task of 
teaching my son a language which the State decides is his mother tongue but 
which is as alien as Latin or Greek. Well, almost!



Your response to Point No 3 -- raising more questions to meet a discussion -- 
gives me the feeling that you are *pretending* to be asleep. I am definitely no 
expert in waking up those who pretend to be asleep...



As for your last point, about the Church using a different orthography and 
teaching such skills to my son, I'm stuck at a more fundamental level. My point 
is how do I manage to wake him up when he prefers sleeping in bed to Sunday 
school and obligation :-)



As far as the Church books are concerned, these are, fortunately, in both the 
Romi and Devanagari scripts of Konkani. This makes it easier for me.From Romi 
Konkani, I'm

Re: [Goanet] Konkani's first free audio novelette ... Khand by Willy Goes

[Sebastian Borges]

 for the first time (But just
because one wrong was committed in the past,it cannot be used as an argument to
justify the hegemony of Antruzi…) and try to make sense out of it. Please note 
that no one is justifying his action; it is only emulation of a century-long 
practice. 



(7) The exceptions of the couple of articles in Sashti
dialect for Rashtramath, and Pednem, Kankon, Velip dialects in Sunaparant would
be only that ... exceptions! If this is so widely acceptable, why doesn't it
happen on a daily basis? Romi papers which don't allow for such diversity are
also guilty of a grave mistake, if not shortsightedness. What they ask from the
more powerful, they need to acceed to the less powerful! Else, we'd have only
another example of hegemony.

Rsp. 7: Granted that running *_regular
weekly columns_* each for *_at least a year at a stretch_* may be exceptions. 
But,
in spite of the fact that Roman script journalism has had a much longer innings
(for much of the 20th century), can you cite at least one such
exception there? When there is not even an occasional exception on one side
what right would you have to insist on a daily exception from the other side? 
Now
that you are convinced about the existence of a like hegemony on the other side,
would you please campaign against it? 





(8) You are putting words in my mouth and making assumptions on my
behalf. My kids would be happier and genuinely interested in Radio
Indigo, fast-food and pizza, Inox and the books at Bookworm. Under the current 
state
of affairs, they are compelled to learn Konkani  and that too in Devanagari
(which, according to me, is not a bad thing, though it does lower their grades
and makes them believe that Aamchi Bhas is a borning and gobeldygooky
language). This is sad. Learning should be pleasurable.

Rsp. 8: Excuse me! I have not
put any words in your mouth since I have quoted you verbatim by the copy-paste
method. The rest is clearly my understanding of the only statement of yours
which made some sense. If I erred there as well, then you might revisit your
original statement to check whether that was what you wanted to say in the
first place. 



(9) As for myself, I am  no scholar in Konkani, orthography or
otherwise. I would like to use it as a tool for communication (but in Goa today
it seems to be used for every other purposes but this). Hence my orthography is
far from perfect, or purely impure, if you want it another way! Secondly, I was
trying to render the poem as it would sound in Devanagari 
script-Antruzi-influenced-dialect. 
In fact, I've become a bit skilled at this of late (though without
certification or crosschecking). I regularly render Devanagari text into the
Roman script, with the intonation that would be expected from a Devanagari
text. This helps my eight year old get past some more hegemonical artificial
barriers. Now don't ask what I see as a Devanagari accent here... otherwise we
would have to start all over again!

Rsp. 9: Every language has its
own orthography. English and Portuguese, for instance, are written in the same
Roman script. But you cannot write Portuguese in the English orthography or
vice versa. These orthographies have evolved over some centuries; hence, in
proper writing, they are rightly insisted upon, and no liberties are permitted.
Konkani too is being written in Roman script for hundreds of years; hence it
has developed its own orthography (largely based on the straightforward 
Portuguese phonetics) which
likewise must be insisted upon, and no liberties, please! Hindi is not written
in Roman script; hence Hindi slogans, jingles and blurbs in advertisements (not 
poems in
text-books) are transliterated from the Devanagari whereby the sounds are 
replicated,
to the extent possible, using the haphazard and vague English phonetics. Since 
this system is not
standardized, a lot of variation is practised and tolerated. And this is what
you are skilled at. You say that your skill helps your eight year
old to get past the hegemonical artificial barriers. However,
Church readings do not use the orthography you are skilled at. Do
you use your skills there too for helping your child? If no, how
then does your child manage?    

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani's first free audio novelette ... Khand by Willy Goes

[Sebastian Borges]

 

Dear FN,

Talking in monosyllables does
not necessarily keep the discussion on track; in fact, it could provide avenues
for straying off track, beating about the bush and going on a wild goose chase.
And I do not have the time for an endless and meaningless discourse. I have
been brought up in the method of argumentation used in the science discipline
where precision is the sine qua non; when I say spade, I mean exactly that. I
give you an argument and back it up with an illustration so as not to leave any
doubt in your mind regarding my say. And this, to my mind, will end up saving a
lot of bandwidth, not to talk about the savings on time expended.

But your approach is just the
reverse; the more meaningless the better. Consider these gems: 

(1)  There is no
Bardezi script, agreed. But isn't it a fact that Romi mostly uses the Bardezi
script… 

Now, who is this Romi fellow
that uses the non-existent Bardezi script, and that too for much of the 20th
century, at least?  (Padribhas and
Bamonbhas are Mangalore variants of Konkani which neither of us would be able
to discuss; so, leave them alone.)

(2)  and I will not
grudge them their right to choose for myself, as they should not block mine.


What exactly do you want to
say? Could you please expand this to render it intelligible?

(3)  As far as the
verse goes, my problem is that the hegemonical grip over language in today's
Goa means that the language and usage of large sections of people is getting
delegitimised. 

What is hegemony? Whose
hegemonical grip are you talking about? How does the verse in question promote
that? How does the verse help to delegitimise the language and usage of large
sections of people? Please elaborate by citing the relevant parts of the verse
to back your claim.

(4)  But just because
one wrong was committed in the past,it cannot be used as an argument to justify
the hegemony of Antruzi…  
What do
you mean by in the past? In the 16th century? Is it not happening today? Why
should that not be corrected too? My experience in this respect is just the
contrary. I wrote a couple of articles in the Saxtti dialect and they were
published without emendations, of course at my request, by (the now defunct) 
Rashtramat
in its Sunday editions. At around the same time, I sent a similar article to
Sunaparant but my request was not conceded and it appeared as amended. But
later I sent some articles on Orthography which appeared as sent (with an
editorial note to this effect!). I have also seen columns written in the Pernem
and Canacona Velip dialects appearing in Sunaparant. But none of this happens
in any Roman script publication.

(5)  All that I'm
saying when me and my kids want to learn Konkani, we find the Roman script far,
far easier to do so. 

This is the only part that
makes sense! Assuming that your kids and you are genuinely interested in
learning Konkani, you must have read quite a bit of that and are, therefore,
familiar with Konkani orthography in the Roman script. But why is this not
reflected in the orthography of the verse that you have posted? Could you
please explain?

Sebastian Borges

 





On 20 Jul
2012 Frederick FN Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com
wrote:  

Dear Prof Borges, If you make your point briefly, we could have a better chance
of staying on track.



 You claim to be a staunch protagonist of Konkani written in the Roman
script. But I doubt you have  read any
Konkani in that script.



I have made no such claim. All that I'm saying when me and my kids want to learn
Konkani, we find the Roman script far, far easier to do so. I bear no animus
against those who find the Devanagari script more convenient; and I will not
grudge them their right to choose for myself, as they should not block mine.





 You cannot blame the Devanagari-protagonists alone for pushing out other
dialects in preference to Antruzi; the Romi-protagonists  too are equally 
guilty of pushing out other
dialects in preference to Bardezi. But  you do not protest against this! Why?



Of course, Bardezi's dominance is as unfair. Not just Sashtti but so many other
dialects have lost out... the Pednem boli, the Canacona variant. Probably the
Tiswadi dialect is close to Bardezi.



This is an issue too. But just because one wrong was committed in the past, it
cannot be used as an argument to justify the hegemony of Antruzi and its 
one-language-one-script-one-people
logic.



FN



PS: There is no Bardezi script, agreed. But isn't it a fact that Romi mostly
uses the Bardezi script (and hence is closely connected with it) while
Devanagari is mostly Antruzi-influenced? If we want to go into the categories
of Padribhas and Bamonbhas (as outlined by Dr William R. Da Silva, himself a
priest) then that is another issue too!



As far as the verse goes, my problem is that the hegemonical grip over language
in today's Goa means that the language and usage of large sections of people is
getting delegitimised.



 

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani's first free audio novelette ... Khand by Willy Goes

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN,

For any discussion to be
meaningful, it is imperative that the discussants comprehend exactly what the
other participants therein want to say. In this manner, each participant is
able to see the issue in a holistic manner by looking at it from the point of
view of dissenting members. This becomes possible when each one uses words and
expressions which have definite meanings/connotations in common parlance.
Unfortunately, this is not happening here because, in my view, you are turning
the words upside down; perhaps you feel the same regarding my usage. I get the
impression that you do not want a fruitful discussion. When details are
provided, you feel “flooded perhaps because the details deny you the 
opportunity to grab straws for keeping afloat. In support of my contention, I 
present you
the following evidence:

A language/dialect is written
(not spoken) in a script; but you think a script is written in a language. The
languages/dialects have names and so do the scripts. Thus we have the Roman,
Cyrilic, Perso-Arabic, Devanagari scripts each of which is used to write
several languages. But we do not have a Portuguese script (Portuguese
dictionaries refer to Portuguese Alphabet, not script). Some scripts are used
exclusively to write a single language or were designed for one language; in
such cases the name of the language is itself used as the name of the script; 
thus
we have Malayalam, Kannada, Telegu, Gujerati scripts. But there is no Brazilian
scipt; hence a Bardezi script is an impossibility.

You have provided a verse, but
have not specified what exactly your objection to it is. We must keep in mind
the fact that it is in a school text-book. Any curriculum/text-book is designed
keeping certain pedagogic objectives in mind. This is a language text, not one
of music or folklore. Although I could not spell out exactly what the pedagogic
objectives at Std. III are, I am sure enhancement of the language skills of the
child is one of them. And this particular verse seems to satisfy that objective
to a large extent. It uses a familiar song (or two) with some extraneous
stanzas. This is nothing new; people generally indulge in this at parties and
picnics. In fact, we have some commercially produced audio-cassettes providing
exactly this type of medleys for their entertainment value. The verse has a 
cat-and-mouse theme akin to
Mickey Mouse situations. The teacher can use it to encourage the children to
imagine additional situations (as has been done via the extraneous stanzas), or 
recall MM cartoon episodes, to compose
additional stanzas for which they will have to search and get additional apt 
Konkani
words for the purpose of rhyme and metre; the task is made a little easier by
providing a choice of two metres (from two songs). So, what are you objecting
to, may I know? Whatever “sin” you may have envisaged, could that not have been
committed by using the Roman script in stead of Devanagari?

You claim to be a staunch
protagonist of Konkani written in the Roman script. But I doubt you have read
any Konkani in that script. If you have, please state the name of a single
Konkani book/periodical which uses the orthography that you have employed for
the verse you have quoted. Would any English periodical publish a badly-spelt
piece submitted to it? But Konkani periodicals have to do exactly this, day in
and day out; the articles need corrections for almost every word! Don't you
think that those who claim to support the script should themselves use it
properly, first?

You cannot blame the “Devanagari-protagonists”
alone for pushing out other dialects in preference to Antruzi; the 
“Romi-protagonists”
too are equally guilty of pushing out other dialects in preference to Bardezi. 
But
you do not protest against this! Why?

Sebastian Borges



On 18 Jul 2012  Frederick FN Noronha wrote:


Dear Prof Borges,

You've drowned us in detail! Without getting caught up in that, let me
say that today's Devanagari is largely (wholly?) written in
Antruzi-influenced Konkani. With Romi, the script (at least for much
of the 20th century) was Bardezi.

The attempt to push one dialect and script in the name of
standardisation is leading to a whole lot of problems, as former
Devanagari-alone supporters (like Dr/Fr Pratap Naik, Tomazinho Cardozo
and others) have been bold enough to concede.

Regardless of the terminology used, you've got the point I earlier
sought to make. Now let me share with all what happens to a famed Goan
verse when it gets Devanagarised and incorporated in the Std. III
Konkani text book for schools in Goa.

I'm transliterating from Devanagari to Romi, so the rendering is approxmiate:

Hundir -- Mama

Hundir mhujya mama
Aani haanv sangtam tuka
Aarey, mazorichyea pila lagin
Khel maandun naaka.

Hundir maama aaylo,
Khaati ponda leeplo
Aani mazorichya peelan taka
Eka ghansan dharloh.

So far not bad, but let's see what happens next:

Hundir mama sutlo
Kotye kudint dhanvlo
Aani mazorichya peelak

Re: [Goanet] Konkani's first free audio novelette ... Khand by Willy Goes

[Sebastian Borges]

 not to unduly inconvenience
the complainant?

Sebastian Borges

 

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012  Frederick FN Noronha  fredericknoro...@gmail.com
wrote:





For political and strategic reasons it may be
fine to deny the existence of

diversity of script and dialect in Konkani; but are these really as

non-existent as made out to be? I have experience in
teaching my two kids

Konkani in the Devanagari script, and realise that BOTH script and dialect

make it far more difficult for me to use. It is not just that the script is

different, but together with the script goes a certain dialect and point of

view. Some day I will illustrate this point with excerpts from their text

books. The denial of such differences only makes things worse in my view...

because it places the onus on the party doing the complaining.



Theoretically, spoken Konkani should be script-neutral. But is this the

case?



Devanagari invariably (or most often) gets linked to the Antruzi dialect,

which is being restructured somewhat to incorporate more diversity, but not

enough. Meanwhile, Romi is mostly tied to Bardezi. Sashti,
though popular

in speech and widely used in its parts, doesn't seem to have too much in

written form for reasons I've not understood... maybe hegemony-building

within Catholics.  



Before Prof Borges et al pounce on me, let me say that it is not my

intention to convert this into a Romi-versus-Devanagari debate. I'm just

taking it forward in the spirit of a polite debate. FN



PS: Just a couple of questions -- (i) do you acknowledge the existence of

different dialects among Konkani speakers, which use somewhat differing

vocabularies and external influences? (ii) if you
wouldn't like it to be

defined as below, would you feel it okay to say that the audio-book is

rendered in the Bardezi script?









Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Tony,
Seems you have got me wrong. I certainly did not doubt the sincerity of your 
intentions. But, considering the state the Konkani language is in, I did not 
expect an erudite person of your stature to seriously suggest that we should 
standardize the language before it is used in schools. We have to admit that in 
today’s world, standardization of a language cannot be imposed from the top; 
only a Kemal Ataturk could have made such an attempt. Even if a Committee is 
officially appointed, there is no guarantee that the recommendations will be 
universally accepted, assuming that the Committee will itself come to a 
unanimous decision. As matters stand, we cannot even agree to follow a set of 
orthographic rules! But, if at all it is to succeed, standardization must 
happen, it must come about, evolve. And this can happen or evolve only through 
the free and willing participation of speakers of the language belonging to the 
various groups. For Konkani, the groups
 are regional, linguistic, caste etc among whom one notices dialectal 
variations. It would be ideal if writers from each group write in their own 
dialect and the same is read by writers from all the other dialects. When all 
are exposed to the lexical and phonetic variations, the writers are likely to 
use those words/phrases from others' dialects which they find attractive. This 
process will also throw up a thesaurus of the most popular usage, leading to 
spontaneous but gradual standardization. Unfortunately for Konkani, this does 
not happen. And one of the hurdles is the multiplicity of scripts that the 
language is burdened with. It is essential that the reader gets the nuances of 
another's dialect with all its phonetic variations. This could be conveyed more 
effectively  by everyone writing in a single Indic script (Devanagari, Kannada 
etc.) wherein the characters have intrinsic phonetic values, rather than in a 
script like the Roman, where the
 phonetic value of a character varies from language to language and even within 
the same language. But here again, we are bogged down by avoidable 
controversies. Therefore, if we wait to introduce Konkani in schools until we 
have standardized the language, we shall never be able to do, it. And this is 
why I thought you are not serious about that suggestion.
One need not know everything about any subject/topic; therefore, ignorance is 
not a sin. But one need not display that ignorance  arrogantly.
Survival of the fittest may be a law fit for the jungle, but the modern precept 
is to provide a level playing field. The English language borrows foreign 
words, but these are for new things and concepts to express which it does not 
possess equivalents in its own lexicon; they do not replace or displace already 
existing ones. This is not the case with borrowings into Konkani; our children 
do not know the Konkani words for familiar things, but can effortlessly cite 
English names for the same. This is not enrichment of the Konkani language. 
Insisting on native words, where such exist, is certainly not Puritanism.
Sebastian Borges
 On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote:

WHAT I HAVE TO SAY:
Thank you for that very elaborate and erudite reply. As for the Konkani 
language goes, I am a 'nennar' as far as these intense linguistic studies go. I 
have sufficient command of the Konkani language to communicate and to go about 
my business as any other citizen. Since, this is not my area of primary 
interest I have not delved as deeply as you have in the subject.
Also as my prime language of communication is English (I am not saying mother 
tongue,lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and 
gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read Konkani as deeply as you have.

If you feel that English has eroded the Konkani linguistic base, then that is 
the natural process of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Any organism or any 
entity which is not strong and fit enough to survive will perish. If Konkani 
has lost to English in some ways it has also gained in another way wherein 
English words have been adopted by Konkani. Should there be puritanism in 
languages too? Well you don't have to go to the good book for that one. Just 
take a good look around you and smell the coffee!

Why are you such a doubting Thomas that you should question/ doubt my
intentions when I made the comment I did? I am prepared to learn from
anybody without fear, favour or prejudice.

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse

[Sebastian Borges]

Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:07:28 +0530
From: Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com
To: Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994 goanet@lists.goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Message-ID:
    capsceg859q6lbs+jkdkppzn39tqed8caehggtblhgpvd6to...@mail.gmail.com
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Professor Borges: RESPONSE:
I hope this time at least you are serious. Else, please spare the abuses.
Thanks.
Script and dialect are happy hunting grounds for some people. But no luck
here, I'm afraid! Both these words have been in existence simultaneously and
for a very very long time.
Mhalgoddo put is found in the Bible at many places, e.g. Lk. 2:7 - Ani
tinnem aplea mhalgoddea putak zolm dilo. Let us thank the Lord for
preserving this term at least in his Word, albeit by dropping the H i.e as
malgoddo.!
Mhalgoddo?is not exactly the same as mhalvot. Mhalvot is used
exclusively for the first-born whereas mhalgoddo means elder.?Senior
persons in a group are referred to as mhalgodde but never as mhalvot.
The latter term would mean first-born son even without put. But with
mhalgoddo you must add put?just as in the elder son. For corroboration
of this, please see Dr. Olivinho Gomes' Konkani Manasagangotri - An
Anthology of Early Konkani Literature.? In the Glossary at p. 332, you will
find?the following: Mhalgoddo = vhoddlo = elder.? Mhalvot = pirayen
vhoddlo?= eldest child.? Mhalvotponn = mhalvotachi sthiti = primogeniture.
You will also find on p. 251 para 2, that mhalvot is used twice but
without put. And this is from Vonvaleancho Mollo by Miguel de Almeida sj
published in 1658-59.
This shows that these words were very much prevalent in Goan Konkani when
the Portuguese arrived here,?but have fallen into disuse over the past four
centuries. Through the influence of the Portuguese language, mhalvot was
replaced by morgado. Some people even believe that mhalgoddo is a
corruption of the Portuguese morgado! This is not an exception.? Hundreds
of vocables from the Konkani lexicon have thus been lost. In earlier
centuries this erosion was restricted mainly to the cities, with the rural
population remaining faithful to the soil. But now, with the spread of
English education, the?rate?has increased. Anyone trying to retrieve some of
the losses is frowned upon; the words being dubbed imports from Marathi
since they are not intelligible to a large segment of Goan society.?or
NITALSOGS.
You could ascertain the truth of the above statement by just recalling the
Prayers that you learnt in your childhood and checking how many of them are
not commonly used by that segment today. So, if at all?we are to stem
the?tide and retrieve a part of our heritage, we have to begin with little
children before they imbibe the foreign equivalents of true Konkani
words.?Else, in a short while from now, we shall have added many more words
to the NITALSOGS?category. It is not essential that the child's parents must
know the?meaning of each of those words beforehand; it is the function of
the teacher, not parent, to make the child comprehend.
Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, Let us
first standardize.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges??

WHAT I HAVE TO SAY:
Thank you for that very elaborate and erudite reply. As for the Konkani
language goes, I am a 'nennar' as far as these intense linguistic studies
go. I have sufficient command of the Konkani language to communicate and to
go about my business as any other citizen. Since, this is not my area of
primary interest I have not delved as deeply as you have in the subject.
Also as my prime language of communication (I am not saying mother tongue,
lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing
of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read as deeply as you have.

If you feel that English has eroded the Konkani linguistic base, then that
is the natural process of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Any organism
or any entity which is not strong and fit enough to survive will perish. If
Konkani has lost to English in some ways it has also gained in another way
wherein English words have been adopted by Konkani. Should there be
puritanism in languages too? Well you don't have to go to the good book for
that one. Just take a good look around you and smell the coffee!

Why are you such a doubting Thomas that you should question/ doubt my
intentions when I made the comment I did? I am prepared to learn from
anybody without fear, favour or prejudice.

-- 
Tony de Sa   tonydesa at gmail dot com

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse - Tony

[Sebastian Borges]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011  Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote:

Sebastian: to my grandmother I was her 'mhalvot natu'

COMMENT: In the Konkani used in the Catholic Church gospels and readings, I
have heard the expression 'mhalgodo put' with the appropriate translation. I
think the reference was to Isaac the son of Abraham.

Is mhalgodo the same as mhalvot? Or is it the difference in the dialect that
causes such a variance?

The main problem here is that the Konkani used in the verse is not
intelligible to a large segment of Goan society!

Let us first standardize. 


RESPONSE:
I hope this time at least you are serious. Else, please spare the abuses. 
Thanks.
Script and dialect are happy hunting grounds for some people. But no luck here, 
I'm afraid! Both these words have been in existence simultaneously and for a 
very very long time.
Mhalgoddo put is found in the Bible at many places, e.g. Lk. 2:7 - Ani 
tinnem aplea mhalgoddea putak zolm dilo. Let us thank the Lord for preserving 
this term at least in his Word, albeit by dropping the H i.e as malgoddo.! 
Mhalgoddo is not exactly the same as mhalvot. Mhalvot is used exclusively 
for the first-born whereas mhalgoddo means elder. Senior persons in a 
group are referred to as mhalgodde but never as mhalvot. The latter term 
would mean first-born son even without put. But with mhalgoddo you must 
add put just as in the elder son. For corroboration of this, please see Dr. 
Olivinho Gomes' Konkani Manasagangotri - An Anthology of Early Konkani 
Literature.  In the Glossary at p. 332, you will find the following: Mhalgoddo 
= vhoddlo = elder.  Mhalvot = pirayen vhoddlo = eldest child.  Mhalvotponn = 
mhalvotachi sthiti = primogeniture. You will also find on p. 251 para 2, that 
mhalvot is used twice but without put. And this is from Vonvaleancho 
Mollo by Miguel de Almeida sj published in 1658-59.
This shows that these words were very much prevalent in Goan Konkani when the 
Portuguese arrived here, but have fallen into disuse over the past four 
centuries. Through the influence of the Portuguese language, mhalvot was 
replaced by morgado. Some people even believe that mhalgoddo is a 
corruption of the Portuguese morgado! This is not an exception.  Hundreds of 
vocables from the Konkani lexicon have thus been lost. In earlier centuries 
this erosion was restricted mainly to the cities, with the rural population 
remaining faithful to the soil. But now, with the spread of English education, 
the rate has increased. Anyone trying to retrieve some of the losses is frowned 
upon; the words being dubbed imports from Marathi since they are not 
intelligible to a large segment of Goan society. or NITALSOGS.
You could ascertain the truth of the above statement by just recalling the 
Prayers that you learnt in your childhood and checking how many of them are not 
commonly used by that segment today. So, if at all we are to stem the tide 
and retrieve a part of our heritage, we have to begin with little children 
before they imbibe the foreign equivalents of true Konkani words. Else, in a 
short while from now, we shall have added many more words to the 
NITALSOGS category. It is not essential that the child's parents must know 
the meaning of each of those words beforehand; it is the function of the 
teacher, not parent, to make the child comprehend.
Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, Let us 
first standardize.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges  
-- 

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse - FN

[Sebastian Borges]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011  Frederick FN Noronha  fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

Guys, you are missing my point! While you go about standardising, do
you have to make a guinea pig of my seven-year-old who is supposed to
understand and study all these little used words!

Think of my plight -- I have to teach him too (and learn myself) just
because some mineowners/freedom fighters quote the Unesco supposed
comment in favour of mother tongue education (and the Official
Language Act somehow says Konkani means Konkani in the Devanagari
script).

I have no animosity towards Konkani or any other language. All
languages deserve to be promoted; but that won't be done with a gun
pointed at anyone's head! FN

RESPONSE:
I fully sympathise with FN's plight. But then the world does not work exactly 
the way we want it to. So it would do a lot of good to one's health if one 
gives up the persecution complex; why should I alone be singled out for 
punishment? In fact there are many out there sailing in the same boat. Let me 
give an example.
My own Primary education was in Portuguese. I attended a private school 
conducted by a mestre, a very erudite man who, I was told, had left the 
seminary close to his ordination.
In the second standatd (I think) I had a lesson with the title So manduca quem 
trabuca (The o in so has an acute accent). My mestre explained it thus: 
manduca = jevta; trabuca = vavrota; so manduca quem trabuca - zo konn vavrota 
toch jevta. Atam, jevta hache khatir anik ek Purtugez utor asa; kitem tem? 
- janta.
-Ani vavrota hache khatir anik ek Purtugez utor sang.
- trabalha.
- Xabas. Atam so manduca quem trabuca hem dusrea Purtugez utramni sang 
polleum-ia.
- So janta quem trabalha.
- Amche bhaxentui hem veglle toren mhonnunk zata: Vavr kor, pott bhor. Atam ek 
sang. Tum jevta?
- Hoi mestre.
- Tum vavrak voita?
- Na mestre.
- Tor tum funkott jevta.
- Hoi mestre.
- Tum lisanv korta?
- Hoi mestre.
- Ghorakodde maim sangta tem kam' korta?
- Hoi mestre.
- Hoch tuzo vavr. Tum funkott jevina. Punn main sanglolem kam' korina zalear 
mat tum funkott jevta oxem zatolem. Somzolo?
- Hoi mestre.
This is how I was taught Portuguese. I always claim that although I studied 
Portuguese, my medium of instruction was Konkani. Wonder how many teachers 
today take this triuble in our primary schools, Konkani or English; I find that 
they insist upon the child memorising the words.
But, why all this rigmarole, you might ask. There is a method in this madness. 
After Segundo grau and Primeiro Ano of Portuguese I joined the English High 
school where I took Portuguese as my second language for the SSc examination. 
But never in my life have I encountered the two verbs, manduca and trabuca. 
They are probably the rarest of the rare; but in the second standard, I did not 
know this fact.
Now imagine a couple of Portuguese parentage who were born and brought up in 
British Africa and came to Portugal only after their marriage. At home they 
conversein English, and since English is a wider window to the world, they 
never felt the need to read Portuguese. However they picked up enough 
Portuguese to communicate with their neighbours.
Now came the time to send their son to school. This necessarily to be 
Portuguese since there is no English school in the neighbourhood. And one day 
the boy informs he has a new lesson: So manduca quem trabuca. Would his parents 
be horrified because they have never heard these words? Would they curse the 
people who write school-books that make a guinea-pig of their seven-year-old 
child making him understand and study such little-used complex words? Would 
they complain that their child is made to learn Portuguese at the point of a 
gun? In fact, they would just ask the child what he has learnt; and the child 
would tell them what the words mean, because that is what his teacher has just 
explained, as expected of her. He certainly does not know that these are 
little-used words and is not awed by them! To him they are just new words like 
the ones he learns every day.
Do give this a thought.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges.  

[Goanet] Subject: Re: Konkani Verse

[Sebastian Borges]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 MD mmdme...@gmail.com wrote:
On the above verse, 'saan' is not used in universal Konkni.  'Saan' means
'laan' or small. However, 'piray' (Prai) means age, not long life.  Long
life is 'laamb aavk'. Naturally some words could be'Greek' to some.

Comment:
At last something sensible is coming through. Thanks.
I do not know what universal Konkni exactly means; this is the first time I 
am coming across this term. But in my Salcete Konkani san is used; it was 
used much more in my childhood (mid-twentieth century) but not so much now. 
Both 'san and 'lhan' mean 'small' but the two terms are not exactly 
synonymous. 'Lhan' refers to size whereas 'san' refers to age. For instance, to 
my grandmother I was her 'mhalvot natu' and my youngest brother her 'sanolo 
natu'. My father was her 'mhalvot put' whilst his youngest brother was always 
her 'sanolo' although he was no longer a minor. Further, an elephant calf is 
larger than a fully grown dog. Between the two the elephant calf is 'san' 
whereas the dog is 'lhan'. This is my humble understanding.
'Avk' or 'aukh' is not found in my Konkani at all; I find it only in the Bible. 
But 'piray' is. It does mean 'age' but, by extension, it could also include 
'long life' when in search for a short crisp term which, I presume, is 
sometimes the requirement of a poet. Moreover, we do say 'tachi piray zalea' 
when we want to say 'he has become old' or 'he has lived a long life.'
Hope this helps readers to realise that the Konkani language it is not so 
Greek after all.
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse

[Sebastian Borges]

 
Dear Eugene,
Many thanks for the enlightening discourse on the English idiom. Although I am 
familiar with the idiom, much of what you have provided was not within my 
knowledge. Obliged for that.
To my humble knowledge, this is all Greek to me is an idiomatic way of saying 
I dot understand this at all or, to use other idioms, this has gone over my 
head / I cannot make head or tail of this. And you presume this is what Tony 
meant. But please reread Tony's original sentence: Konkani? Looks more like 
Greek to me. I think I have to re enroll for Std II! :/.  Do you still hold 
the same opinion? Does looks more like Greek to me fit the idiom format? I 
don't think so. To me, his statement it means: This is not Konkani. It appears 
as if it were Greek. If this is really Konkani, then I should go back to school 
to learn it! I presumed he could not understand a part or the whole of the 
poem, especially because there were some transliteration errors in the the form 
it was originally posted in, which garbled the meaning somewhat. Hence my 
request to Tony. But what was Tony's response? In stead of complying with my 
request, he went completely
 off the rails with, While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be an expert in 
Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of Konkani cognoscenti), I 
personally, have my doubts about his knowledge of the English language as 
demonstrated by his remark above! Is this warranted? Even assuming I 
have made the claim that he suspects I have, does it matter to the issue at 
hand? Did I give my opinion on the poem? If my translation was faulty, he could 
have pointed out the errors. And what has my knowledge of the ENGLISH language 
got to do with getting the meaning of a KONKANI poem? I would still request 
Tony to let us know exactly what it was that he could not understand in the 
poem. 
If Tony went off the rails, the baby-doctor went into orbit with his puerile, 
nay infantile, logic as usual. Better ignore the incorrigible.
 
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges
 On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com wrote:
I think the debate over this (or is it in this?) has gone off tanget. Tony 
obviously used an English idiom (explanation below from Wikipedia) and Borges 
seemingly took Tony's words literally. Unless,Borges explains that he 
understood the idiom. I think Tony was outright wrong in questioning Borges's 
expertise on the language.
However, no one in Goa or elsewhere is the last word on Konkani.
For the doctor from Bahamas to jump into this fray with his usual cockeyed view 
and also hit Borges below the belt for the latter's support for Devnagiri was 
uncalled for. But the good doctor dishes out his own brand of medicine for all 
the ills that goanetters suffer on this forum (ha, ha)
.I hope I had the last word... chapter closed :-)

Eugene

Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN
You asked for an English translation of the Poem; I presumed it was a genuine 
request, without a hidden agenda. I suspected a couple of errors in your 
transliteration; so I rang up a niece whose daughter was in std. II last year, 
hoping that she would still have the book. She did. So I asked her to read the 
poem over the phone. In the meantime, someone said that it sounded like Greek. 
So I provided the English meaning of every word therein. I wanted to know which 
were the words that sounded like Greek; the info would at least add to my 
knowledge. Hence I posed the question, accordingly. And what do I get? Did I 
ever claim to be an expert in anything? If yes, could these worthies please 
point to the locus where I said so? And, pray, what has my knowledge of Konkani 
and English (or lack of it) got to do with this matter? The question marks are 
not mine. Somehow they just appear when a matter is uploaded on Goanet; they 
may stand for space, hyphen or even
 an accented letter. This should be familiar to anyone who reads the Goanet 
posts.
I do not see what is so complex in that poem that it would be too much for a 
six-year old to comprehend. Aren't Our Father and Hail Mary etc. in Konkani 
more complex than this? Aren't these prayers taught to six-year olds at Sunday 
school, assuming that the child has not already learnt them at home much 
earlier?
 
Sebastian Borges
 
 
 
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 :  Frederick FN Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

 But, don't you think it's more than a bit illogical to attempt teaching 
something so complex, that too to a six-year-old, and whose parents (in most 
cases) don't have a clue as to what's going on?

I'm talking as a parent here, who's been through it!  And certainly doesn't
like the idea of promoting regional languages with a gun pointed to my
head.

FN

J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:

[1] Tony de Sa wrote: Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me.

[2] Sebastian Borges wrote: I request Tony to point out the Greek?in this?

[3] Tony de Sa wrote again: While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be
an expert in Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of
Konkani cognoscenti), I personally, have my doubts about his knowledge
of the English language as demonstrated by his remark above!

COMMENT:

Tony! Tony! Tony!

Why have you just taken off all very Gulabi on Prof Borges?

All he did was to ask you to solve a puzzle.

I do not know that those '? ?' mean but could you not find the Greek
in Prof Borges' post.

Here, let me help you out. Look out for the CAPS

Prof Borges: I request Tony to point out the GREEK in this.

But then again, it all depends on what Prof Borges meant by in this.

I could understand IF the kon_fusao had occurred with me, I am a
Devnagri ONLY for Marathi and a Devnagri Also for Konkani.

These Devnagri Only for Konkani chaps need some serious 'help' when it
comes to Romi-English.

jc


Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...

[Sebastian Borges]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011  Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote:
Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me. I think I have to re enroll for Std
II! :/
 
Here is the correct rendering of the poem in (modern) Romi:
 
Noman
 
San ami san Deva
Kortat tuka noman Deva
Vagnnuk ami dekh bori
Xikop ani rit khori

Xikpak di boll zoit Deva
Avoi bapui gurujon amche
Tuje sasayen khoxien ravche
Xanti di sukh, piray Deva

Meanings:
noman = obeisance. Also a respectful greeting as in the prayer 'Noman Morie'.
san = small in age.

ami = we.Deva = oh God!
kortat = make, do.
tuka = to you.
vagnnuk = behaviour, comportment.
dekh = example, lesson, discipline.
bori = good.
xikop = study, learning.
rit = etiquette, habit.
khori = true, genuine.
xikpak = to study.
di = give.
boll = strength.
zoit = success, victory.
avoi = mother.
bapui = father.
avoi-bapui = parents.
gurujon = teachers.
amche = our.
tuje = your.
sasayen = (in) divine grace.
khoxien = happily.
ravche - may live.
xanti = peace.
sukh = happiness.
piray = age, long life.
 
I request Tony to point out the Greek in this.
 
In plain English, the meaning of the poem would be:
 
Our humble obeisance!
 
Oh God! We little children humbly bow before You. We pray that we learn good 
behaviour and adopt proper etiquette, oh God! Please bestow upon us the 
strength for achieving success in studies, oh God! Please grant that our 
parents and teachers may live happily in your divine grace, oh God! Please give 
us peace, happiness and long life, oh God!
 
Hope this meets FN's requirements.  
 
Sebastian Borges  



 Frederick FN Noronha fredericknoron...@gmail.com had written:

Please could someone render this second standard Konkani poem into
English? Thanks, FN


Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Word A Day: fara, faram, farunc, faric corunc......

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN,
This means that an idler is free to upload any rubbish on Wikipedia. An 
unsuspecting poster can then cite this rubbish in support of his contention as 
you have done wrt Dacho Furtad. Please note that Wikipedia has no citation to 
back this insertion. Let us behave responsibly; and I think this is what is 
expected of every contributor and redactor of the articles posted on it. Let us 
upload only such info which we can back with documents. Untrue info, however 
innocuous it may appear, is of no use; but it is capable of doing a lot of 
avoidable harm.
  

Sebastian Borges

On Sun, 15 May 2011 15:03:26 +0530, Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

Sorry, Prof Borges. This is not how it works on the Wikipedia. You
have the opportunity to correct all that is inaccurate or incomplete.
But you cannot expunge anything.

To all those who criticise, the option is simple: do something better.

Information hierarchies are different in cyberspace. They are not
top-heavy or controlled from the top of the pyramid.

Here is the page again, for anyone who might want to improve it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goan_Catholic_literature

FN

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani Word A Day: fara, faram, farunc, faric corunc......

[Sebastian Borges]

I had read that Wikipedia is an unreliable site for authentic information but 
never gave much importance to that complaint. However, upon clicking on the 
link provided by FN, I realised the enormity of this disservice. It is a 
perfect example of polluting the internet data-base which I always deprecate as 
a crime on future seekers of information. The information provided by the link 
is thoroughly spurious. Fact and fiction are so intimately interwoven that it 
would be wiser not to trust it at all. To give just two examples: (1) in the 
box (Sotmantam) which purports to be a Konkani rendition of the prayer I 
believe only the first six lines belong to this prayer; I could not figure out 
the source of the rest. The caption too is entirely unrelated to the contents 
of the box. (2) Several Bombay publications have been listed as being published 
from Goa. The page appears to have been contribured by a very ignorant person. 
I believe it would be a great
 service if this page is expunged altogether.
 
Sebastian Borges
 
 
On Sat, 14 May 2011 16:47:34 +0530, Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:



  FARIZEN nhoim punn FARIZEV


Sorry, but I checked and *farizen* is how the dictionary renders it. I'm not
making a accuracy or otherwise about the dictionary, but just saying that
this is how Dacho Furtad rendered it in 1930. (The reprints of his
dictionary do not acknowledge his work. But Dacho Furtad is credited with
the Dicionar Concanim-Inglez of 1930, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goan_Catholic_literature ) FN
 
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN,
I do not understand why you want to waste your time in futile discussion on the 
motive of a person (neither of us knew personally) for doing a certain thing or 
behaving in a certain way. Does it really matter today?
You had asked: Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in 
Romi Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN Assuming that 
your curiosity is genuine, I directed you to a book which contains an answer to 
your query. I do not know whether R.N. Naik obtained the information directly 
from Goembab or from someone else in whom Goembab had confided it. For all I 
care, it could as well have been RNN's guesswork. In such circumstances, what 
sort of discussion could we have, to what purpose? Please use your time in more 
productive pursuits. I have no time to spare for pointless discussions.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges

On Sat, 7 May 2011 14:38:35 +0530, Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote
To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!
  Dear Prof Borges, Thanks for your reply and pointing out to the book. But, 
for the purpose of continuing this debate here, what would be *your* reply? If 
take the debate from the online world to the printed page, it wouldn't allow as 
many to participate. FN

 Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

On Wed, 4 May 2011 00:43:10 +0530 Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

(i) It would be helpful if someone shared this information online.
Maybe on the Shenoy Goembab Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab
If you can do so, please do. If not, give me permission to share the
information and I'll add it there.

(ii) Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in Romi
Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN

Reply:
Dear FN,
(i) Please feel free to do whatever you like with the info; it is not my 
property.
(ii) Please read the biography, Shenoi Goembab (in Konkani) by R. N. Naik, or 
its Translation in English (2007) by S. M. Borges, both published by Sahitya 
Akademi, New Delhi.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

Could someone point out the connection of FN's post with the two that he has 
appended thereto? These two posts deal with mothertongue and medium of 
instruction at the primary school level; they contain no mention of Indo-Aryan 
language, banishment or anything of this sort. And FN's post has no mention 
of medium of instruction or anything relevant to it. Banishment of 
non-Indo-Aryans may be his problem. But why rope in the two posters? What logic 
is he referring to? Has FN flipped his lid? Just concerned.
Sebastian Borges 

On Wed, 4 May 2011 00:39:52 +0530 Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:


Konkani is an Indo-Aryan language. I guess you guys should take your
logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
out of Goa! If not, why not? FN

On 3 May 2011 21:10,  icso...@bsnl.in wrote:
 Dear JC,
 You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an 
 article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in 
 support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is 
 to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the 
 children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those 
 children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools 
 should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails 
 in the rest of India.

 **Dear Sebastian, I do agree with you totally that Konkani is the 
 mother-tongue of the children of Goans and that only Konkani medium schools 
 are qualified for grants. There are not two mother-tongues. Let the 
 Government study the problem with better care. Problems of text books and 
 teachers should be solved. Parents are free to send their children to the 
 schools of
 their choice.
 Regards.
 Fr.Ivo

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

On Wed, 4 May 2011 10:31:23 +0400 Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com 
wrote:
I just went through the Romi Lipient Konknni Boroughchi Promann Rit
(The Stadnard Orthography of Konknni in Roman Script), by Pratap Naik,
S. J., and published by the Dalgado Konknni
 Akademi, Ponnji, Goy, in
2010. Fr. Naik was assisted by Fr. Vasco de Rego, Fr. Mathew Almedia
(now expired), Fr. Ave Maria Afonso (all belonging to the Society of
Jesus), and Jose Salvador Fernandes.
Has this new orthography accepted by all Konknni writers as the
standard? Perhaps, Sebastian Borges can enlighten us more on this
subject.  


Comment:
Eugene has also read the Konkani periodicals and books that have been published 
recently. He could judge for himself whether any particular orthography is 
being followed throughout even in a single work / issue. Please also remember 
that all that you read is not exactly as was written and submitted by the 
author, but after emendations by the editor; even books need editors to correct 
the orthography and grammar! The various orthographies are just futile 
academic exercises; Konkani writers are least bothered about them.
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Goanet April Stats: Top 21 make 84.2% of the total posts

[Sebastian Borges]

On Mon, 2 May 2011 20:05:29 +0530 Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:
 I echo Bosco here. JoeGoaUk, could you also give us some stats on: (i)
how many different names post to Goanet? (ii) gender breakup (I know
this is badly skewed) (iii) first-time posters (iv) poster whose
comment drew the most responses. I know this could take time, so don't
feel pressured

Comment:
The first
question is enigmatic. Why different names? Does it mean different posters? 
Or is it suggested that some posters use multiple names? Complying with the
second question would be difficult since the gender may not be easily guessed
from the name alone; some first names are not gender-specific and some others
are just initials. The third is also problematic since an occasional poster
might end up being counted as a first-time poster. The fourth would be
difficult because some posters react by changing the title of the thread;
should such reactions be counted as original comments?
I would
suggest that JoeGoaUK continue with his commendable effort with a small change
in the method for better processing of the statistics. In the instant case, 
when he
says “Top 10 make 42.2% of the total” he actually means “Top 11 make 42.2% of
the total” and when he says “Top 21 make 84.2% of the total” he means “Top 43
make 84.2% of the total” posts. This is because two posters are tied at #9 and 
#13
each, three at #16, four each at #12, #17, #18, and #20, and eight  at #19. To 
avoid this, I would suggest that (in the instant case) Francis R be assigned 
#11, Santosh to Aires #13, IC and Seb #17, Joel to Venantius #20 and so on.Group
and non-individual posters like GoaDesc, DohaGoans, TAG etc. could be
segregated as already done wrt Goanet acc/News etc.

Sebastian Borges  

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:

In closing, a question for those who might know the answer: What is
the mother tongue of Goans?

This question has been ducked by the 'paper nationalists' who are
surely smart enough to recognise that there is a follow up question
i.e. IF Konkani is the mother tongue of Goans, WHY are Marathi schools
supported and not English schools?

Dear JC,
You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an 
article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in 
support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is 
to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the 
children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those 
children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools 
should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails 
in the rest of India. 

Warm regards,
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps gone off on a handle was not the correct 
expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track, unnecessarily, 
without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile regarding the correctness 
of my expression, I shall get back to you. For the present, please accept my 
apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious data is getting into the internet 
database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this because a lot of 
spurious medical facts are doing the same leading to several bouts of 
arguments in which you have yourself been involved on Goanet. When such 
spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they are liable to create havoc. This 
is why such interventions are unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for 
Manipuri language five scripts you will get Navhind Times news report of the 
proceedings of the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the 
claim that Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language. In 
fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only Bengali script 
is accepted in the Official Language Act of Manipur. But an innocent googler 
will go away with the knowledge that Manipuri has five scripts all recognised 
by the Manipur government. This is my
 fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges  

From: J. Colaco  jc cola...@gmail.com
To: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com; frederick rico noronha goanet 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com
Cc: goa...@goanet.org goa...@goanet.org
Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

 Sebastian Borges wrote:
[1] As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle,
[2] But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database.
[3] One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!


Dear Prof Borges,

As one who knows very little - in general, I find your advice to FN
(in #3 above) very appropriate for someone like me.  Just so that I do
'not bring in my ignorance as fact' and as 'I am unsure', wrt #1, may
I ask you if the following phrase exists in the English language (in
Romi or in Devanagri): Gone off on a handle?

It was always my understanding (and I stand corrected) that the
handle stayed put but the person flew off it. Are you referring
to a very 'frak' handle which went along with the person on it?

wrt #2: Accepting that FN made an error, why, may I ask, is his error
unforgiveable? Are you, Prof Borges, blemish-free?

good wishes as always

jc

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear JC,
Thanks for the corrections. I had in fact typed THE but reasoned that this 
would imply yhat only one wrong track was available; hence changed it to A. But 
on checking find that neither of these is found in the book of Idioms that I 
possess. This is not to justify the idiom that I used. I thought off on a 
tangent would better express what I wanted to say. But then this too is not 
found in my book. Perhaps my resources are limited.
Yours is no doubt a good advice to a googler; however I would not restrict it 
to medical matters. Other, especially Historical, matters would also demand due 
diligence. But don’t you think that you are putting too heavy an onus of 
responsibility on the innocent googler; how would a googler, five or ten years 
hence, know whether Churchill and Fredrick were politicians, journalists, 
historians or what-have-you? Instead, don’t you think we, as posters, must 
exercise that due diligence and thus avoid confusing the googler? And, mind 
you, this was extraneous info which was entirely irrelevant to the discussion 
at hand. It is such disservice to a future googler that I consider 
unforgiveable. It is non-malicious, no doubt; but potentially dangerous and 
could have been avoide. 
Contrary to the popular perception, K did not come into Konkani post 1961; you 
will find it in the first Konkani novel (Kristanv Ghorabo by Eduardo J. Bruno 
de Sousa) published in 1911. In that Kokani is written with a tilde on both the 
O and the I; similarly the A in Kristav has a tilde on A.
 
Best regards,
Sebastian Borges
 

From: J. Colaco  jc cola...@gmail.com
To: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com
Cc: frederick rico noronha goanet fredericknoro...@gmail.com; 
goa...@goanet.org goa...@goanet.org
Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

Dear Prof. Borges,

You are quite correct. Gone off on a handle is indeed not a
recognised expression in the English language, neither is 'went on a
wrong track' (went on THE wrong track).

All this to suggest that we all make errors and we should not IMHO
deem the non-malicious errors of others as 'unforgiveable'.

wrt the rest of your post, I'd add the following: One should always do
due diligence before accepting statements made by politicians,
partisans and by blog-websites (esp wrt medical matters).

good wishes

jc


 Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote:

Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps gone off on a handle was not the
correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track,
unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile
regarding the correctness of my expression, I shall get back to you.
For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious data is getting into the
internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this
because a lot of spurious medical facts are doing the same leading
to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved
on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they
are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are
unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for Manipuri language five
scripts you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of
the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim
that Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language.
In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only
Bengali script is accepted in the Official Language Act of Manipur.
But an innocent googler will go away with the knowledge that
Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government.
This is my fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

On Sun, 1 May 2011 17:43:18 +0530
Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: 

Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

and

On Mon, 2 May 2011 11:44:29 +0530
Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:


Dear Prof Borges, Repeating my request. Please give a list of the
writings of Shenoi Goembab, script used, and the years in which
published. Many thanks, Unsure, and hence asking! FN



Dear FN,
Please note that (a)  I am not on internet 24x7; it is not my bread and butter. 
There are other not as trivial matter which require my attention.  (b) I am not 
a walkie-talkie encyclopedia   (c) The info you asked needed some digging and 
typing as you can see. Therefore I do not appreciate your sending a reminder in 
less than 24 hours, as can be seen from the dates and timings recorded against 
your posts. It was not a life-and-death matter, either. Or were you being 
sarcastic? Anyway, here is the info you asked:
 
Shenoy Goembab’s Published Literature
 
A.  In Roman script:- Translations of Lamb’s Tales from Shakespeare.
1. Rajput  Hamlet Ani  Tachea  Bapaychem  Bhut [Tr. Hamlet](1908)
 
1. (a)   Gore  Bailecho  Kallo  Ghov [Tr. Othello]
(b) Mudiam khatir  Ghova-bailanchem  Zhogddem [Tr. Merchant of Venice]
(c) Dhuvanchi Porikxa [Tr. King Lear] (-?-) Year not printed in the Xerox 
that I have.
 
    3.     (a) Zunvllea  Bhavancho  Ghuspagodoll [Tr. Comedy of Errors]
    (b) Agul’leachem  nivllonn [Tr. Taming of the Shrew]
    (c ) Ranniechem  Jivem  Bavlem [Tr. Winter’s Tale] (1914)
 
    The following Tales are listed but I do not have copies.
    (a)  Ghatmaro  Ixtt [Tr. - ? -]
    (b)  Bailechi  Porikxa [Tr. - ? -]
    (c)  Mogache  Piddechem  Okhod [Tr. - ? -]
    (d)  Bhusmare  Alebhav  Kolebhav [Tr. - ? -]
 
   These were published as separate books:
(a) Jaducho  Zunvo [Tr. The Tempest] (Roman (- ? -), then Devanagari in 
1968)
(b) Bakavlechem  Ful  (Roman - ? - and Devanagari - ? -)
 
B.   In Devanagari script:-
1. Goenkaracho  Mumbaikar (1910)
2. Mogachem  Logn [Adaptation of Moliere’s Le Medecin Malgre Lui] 
(1913, 2nd. edn. 1938)
3. Goenkaranchi  Goyam bhaili  Vosnnuk (1928)
4. Gomantopanixot  vol. I (1928)
5. Konknni  Bhaxechem  Zoit (1930)
6. Gomantopanixot  vol. II (1933)
7. Bhurgeanlo  Ixtt (1935)
8. Contributions to “Novem Goem”  (Quarterly) vols. 1, 2, 3.(1934 – 
1939)
9. Zilba  Ranno [Based on a story from Arabian Nights](1936, 1950)
10. Konknni  Poilem  Pustok (1939)
11. Punnyatmo  Ram  Kamoti (1939)
12. Konknni  Nadxastr (1940)
13. Bhurgeanlem  Veakoronn (1941)
14. Abe  Faria (1945)
15. Konknnichi  Veakoronni  Bandavoll (1946)
16. Konknni  Mullavem  Pustok (1947)
17. Yevkar  Odheokxalem  Ulovop (1947)
18. Povnanchem  Toplem [Adaptation of Moliere’s L’Avare] (1948)
19. Albuquerquan  Goem  Koxem  Jikhlem (1955)
20. Konknni  Vidyartheank (1958)
21. Shri  Bhogvontalem  Git (1959)
22. Balipatanacho  Sod (1962)
 
Some more writings which are listed but not seen by me; don’t know when and 
where published:
1. Gita  Ken’na  Rochli  (essay)
2. Nimazgo  (article)
3. Dr.  Froilano do  Melo  Hanchea  Yevkarachem  Ulovop (address)
4. Shri  V. N. Mayenkar  hanchea  Potrak  Zap  (letter) 
Hope this meets with your approval.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges 

Re: [Goanet] Konkani before 1961

[Sebastian Borges]

As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle, unnecessarily bringing in 
dialect and script when neither Santosh nor Dr. Ferdinando had referred to 
these. Moreover, in the Konkani-English dictionary and grammar that Santosh 
refers to, the Konkani was written in the Kannada script. Even the religious 
books of the seventeenth century and the Bible of the Twentyfirst century, 
though both in Romi, are in different dialects.
But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database. 
Shenoy Goembab's first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar) was published 
in 1910 and the second (Mogachem Logn) in 1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940? 
One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!
 
Sebastian Borges
 
 
On 1 May 2011 Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?


Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 There were several Konkani books published much
 before 1961. The word Konkani, as opposed to Concani
 was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
 published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
 Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
 Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
 Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
 Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

 
Dear Friends,
On 27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o     drferdina...@hotmail.com 
wrote:

 Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
 
My response:



The moot issue was Wasn't Konkani sustained by the writings of Konkani writers 
in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule? and 
not regarding the existence or otherwise of Concani books prior to 1961, a year 
that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask 
the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in 
Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up to 
1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and 
printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been 
found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was written by a native Goan or 
non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of Concani books in Roman script written by 
anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on 
the scene around this time.)
(d) Could you cite any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed 
in Goa between 1660 and 1928? 
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed 
questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. 
Hence, I shall be much obliged.
 
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI (Tony de Sa)

[Sebastian Borges]

On 26 Apr 2011 I, Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com posed the following 
queries:

 Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by 
Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's Ensaio 
appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in Imperialistic, colonial 
Goa up to as late as 1928? Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any 
European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information. 
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was 
the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the 
Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around. Evidence can be 
provided.
 
In response, 
On 26 Apr 2011 : Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com writes:

 Konkani ulloi, Konkani boroi
Ani Marathi bhaxen
Chont alloi

To Prof (Retd) Borges, I would say the same, only substituting Devnagri
lipin for Marathi bhaxen

Somzoloi re? 
 
My comment:
Tony Sir is excelling himself by the day. In his heyday he must have been 
crowned as the Champion tool-shaking Headmaster. The Government of Goa should 
institute a Lifetime award for such greats. A good deal of credit should go to 
his education entirely in the English medium. I am sure he has passed on his 
skills in this sphere to his grateful pupils.
Just the other day he boasted that he was one of the first headmasters to 
procure Devnagri software for his Konkani, Marathi and Hindi teachers to type 
their papers personally in the Devnagri script. Now we know what he himself did 
with the script!


Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

 
Dear friends,
 
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011  Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote and 
floriano floriano.l...@gmail.com endorsed:
 

 Wasn't Konkani sustained by the writings of Konkani writers in the Roman 
Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. 
Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by 
Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's Ensaio 
appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in Imperialistic, colonial 
Goa up to as late as 1928?  Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any 
European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information. 
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was 
the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the 
Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around. Evidence can be provided.
 
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

 
(refreshments, wages etc.) were paid for by their saibs who were present 
prominently in the audience, though not on the dais. This is nothing new. 
Recently we had a Konkani sammelan for which busloads were brought by the 
politician organizers; they came, they ate, they disappeared! The youth were 
not even Goans; when asked to occupy the empty front seats, no one responded 
but when the same request was made in English, it was complied with; one of 
them came to the dais, but could not speak in Konkani even when coaxed to do 
so! And I shall not be surprised if someone tells me that
 the 6 April rally too had a large proportion of Biharis; after all, MLAs were 
present for this one as well!
 
What have BJP, MGP and the Fundamentalists got to do with the issue at hand? By 
the way, this last word (fundamentalist) has become a convenient stick today 
much akin to communist of pre-liberation days.
 
And, finally, please learn to write Konkani correctly at least in the Roman 
script. Your sentence contains exactly four words of which two are wrongly 
spelt! The Konkani for sit is bos with a single S not two. When you say 
tujim you are using a pronominal adjective in the plural; therefore the 
qualified noun must also be in the plural. Just as the plural of iskol 
(school) is iskolam, of xet (field) is xetam and of ran (forest) is 
ranam, so the plural of xannponn too is xannponnam. Hope I have made my 
point.
 
Sebastian Borges   
 
 
 
 
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote: 

 Dear Prof. Borges,
Don't waste your time and talents worrying about the likes of me. FYI we
are incorrigible. Better you devote your time and energies to your students.
Retired persons -  Specially Headmasters (ignorant though they might be)
have time to waste galore and in addition have time to waste. From your
attitude of intransigent 'loyalty?' or misplaced emotion your poor students
must be having a rather hard time.

So Churchill will never learn, Mickky will never learn, Mauvin, Francis,
Agnelo and the list of MLAs goes on. So they are all idiots, right?
And also thousands of parents who assembled at Azad Maidan, and the Diocesan
Society and its Allied Arch Diocesan Board of Education, and thousands of
Migrant parents.? And you can add a poor insignificant headmaster to
your list.

Gheun boss tujim xannponna.

In the end Peoples Power will triumph. So join the BJP and the MGP and the
Fundamentalists to try and sway the majority.
And why have you sprung to the defence of Freddy?

-- 

Tony de Sa.  tonydesa at gmail dot com
 
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Konkani MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Tony Sir,
When I was teaching in a Goa college, I had had formed an impression that, by 
and large, a student who had done all his studies in the English medium was 
very weak in the English language as far as understanding and expression are 
concerned; and I don't mean ordinary conversation at which he would be very 
good. He could never appreciate the fact that he must understand whatever he is 
learning; for him learning meant memorizing, period! And the reason for this 
was not far to find; all his life he earned his marks by reproducing verbatim 
the notes dictated by his teachers who never gave him any room to frame his own 
sentences. His power of expression was stultified. That was regarding a student 
in college. However, I never expected that the same would be the plight of a 
school teacher. But, to my mortification, I have lived to see that day as well!
Today I find that a senior school teacher (a Headmaster, nothing less) is not 
able to differentiate between IMPLIED and EXPLICIT. When this is pointed out, 
he masquerades as a penitent infidel who offers to become an apostle of his 
opponents' perceived creed to the extent of embracing martyrdom, pound of flesh 
et al. He also concludes by saying end of thread. But, like my former 
students, he did not mean what he wrote and did not write what he meant! For, 
within a matter of seventeen minutes, without provocation, he sent a missive in 
the self-same thread! Actually, I should not have been surprised; he is perhaps 
a product of the same learning-by-rote system. Poor guy! But I must exclaim: 
God save the Goan children who are being taught by such teachers!
My dear Tony Sir, where have I (or Freddy) accused you of being against Konkani 
in Devanagari script? Please point that out, I beg of you. Or was it just a 
pretext to advertise your own supposed exploits? If so, let me tell you that 
downloading Devanagari softwares and using them is no great shakes. (And you 
don’t have to pay a pie unless you want to use them commercially.) I have been 
using them for over ten years. I first felt the need for this when the Konkani 
book I translated contained (in footnotes) many references in Devanagari and 
quotations in Sanskrit which, to be authentic, had to be reproduced as such. My 
colleagues in the Computer Science Department were not of much help in this 
regard; they were themselves beginners in this field. So I had to browse 
through the internet and try out my own solutions. And later, I even carried 
the software on a floppy to TAME cybercafe to do my typing there. (The volume 
of such a software is just around 50
 kb.) Today I do my Devanagari typing at home and get print-outs of the same 
from TOQUINA (or any other) cybercafe who, by the way, do not have this 
software on their computer. It is so simple that many others could (or might) 
have done the same; but perhaps they were too modest to crow about it. So 
please cut the heroics and disabuse your mind of the notion that you have made 
an earth-shaking contribution to knowledge. Sorry to have burst your balloon!
When you say that I fell for your spoof, either you are being naive or you rate 
all Goanetters as utter morons. Had I fallen for your ruse, I would have typed 
the word in DEVANAGARI. I did nothing of the sort. Perhaps, not surprisingly 
though, you did not understand my English. I had clearly stated that Goanet has 
no provision to correctly upload Konkani in ROMAN script. And, the Science 
teacher that I have been, I proceeded to demonstrate the truth of my statement. 
Here is what I did:
On a Word document, I typed: (1) Quote -- (2) shift+g -- (3) Alt+0245 -- (4) y 
-- (5) Unquote. The Result was Goy, the o having a ~ sign upon it. I copied 
this word and pasted it on my post to Goanet. The end result is what you saw. 
If you do not believe me, please try it yourself. For your information, and if 
you have not noticed it yet, posts in Goanet contain a question mark in place 
of quotes, hyphen and accented letters in the original text.

Sebastian Borges


On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 11:17:04 +0100, Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote: 
 I am now yours and Freddy Fernandes' most ardent disciple for the cause of 
devnagri Konkani. Please keep Freddy by your side and lead me to the domains of 
those stupid parents from Diocesan schools and let us quell their demands with 
the power of your brilliant reasoning. With the zeal of a neo-convert, I shall 
join you in trumpeting your cause. Satisfied Prof? Or do you still want another 
pound of flesh? You may have that. Poof - end of thread.



And on Sat, 9 Apr 2011 11:34:46 +0100, Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote: 
 For all the tom-tomers for the Devnagri script Konkan - A simple question :
How many of you use the Devnagri script software? This thought was inspired
when I sarcastically mentioned that GN was making arrangements to
transliterate posts in Devnagri and the very enlightened Prof Borges fell
for the spoof

Re: [Goanet] Konkani MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Albert,
From your post, I get the impression that in your opinion the aims of primary 
education are: (1) to prepare the child for outsourced jobs which require 
smart persons fluent in English and nothing else, (2) to prepare the child for 
settling abroad because Goa cannot provide him/her with a job opportunity.
The child that enters the First standard in June 2011, will graduate and enter 
the job market in 1926. Will the outsourced jobs be still available then? And 
how many of them? And what will the rest of them do? Emigrate?
Will there be openings for them in foreign countries? Even today we find the 
doors being closed to expatriates and vigillante groups targetting such 
settlers, even students. In the Arabian Gulf the locals are already demanding 
employment; and this might lead to an exodus of expatriates in the near future. 
This being the case, we must prepare to provide for our brothers who might be 
forced to pack bag and baggage.
For the last hundred years and more Goans have migrated and settled abroad. And 
the vacuum was filled by people from other states of India who took up the 
newly-created jobs and prospered to occupy a sizeable area of land and 
resources. Today, when the prodigals or their progeny return to their 
roots, they find that all their land and properties have been usurped; they 
blame those who stayed put and lived with whatever was available, as if it was 
the duty of these to protect their interests while they made hay abroad. Should 
we continue to create conditions conducive to outmigration of Goans? 
Considering these facts, I would say that your aims are very short-sighted.
What makes you say that Primary education in English per se makes a child 
smart? 
You ask: If the English teachers themselves have to waste time teaching 
students a new subjects then where is there a time to make them speak, write 
and understand English? What, according to you, is the function of a teacher 
if to teach it is not? If the teacher does not teach the subject assigned to 
her, who should teach it. And what is meant by teaching? Does it include 
ensuring that the child has at least understood the topic? Is memorization word 
for word of whatever the teacher has dictated all that is meant by learning? 
How far will this type of learning take the child? By English teacher do 
you mean the one who teaches the English language? This teacher should not 
dabble in other subjects. But she should concentrate on the child's grammar, 
comprehension and expression; and this should be done through graded exercises 
which are necessarily corrected by this teacher. The student will then be 
empowered to acquire knowledge from other sources
 as well -- this being the true goal of school education.
Weeding out Marathi teachers (as you suggest) is not the solution. It is the 
exclusively English-speaking subject teachers (especially at stds. V, VI and 
VII) who need to be weeded out. They are a burden on the system as they promote 
rote learning; many a time, they themselves do not understand the subject 
matter they are supposed to be teaching.
If drafting circulars is a criterion, I have come across English-educated 
students in College who could not write a simple application to the Principal. 
So this is not the exclusive preserve of Marathi students alone.
Hope I have my point clear.

Sebastian Borges

On 9 Apr 2011 Albert Desouza alizadeso...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Goa cannot provide job opportunity to you. So one needs to move out of Goa 
for a job. Today lots of foreign companies have outsourcing .One prefers a 
smart person in their establishment . Most of the companies use English as a 
medium for transactions. Most of the students coming from Marathi or konkani 
medium lack the ability to understand  English and to speak it out  clearly. If 
the English teachers themselves have to waste time teaching students a new 
subjects then where is there a time to make them speak, write and understand 
English? Today many want to settle abroad. When one goes to US they will not 
appreciate our degrees and so you are rejected. Then if you are given a test 
you tend to fail. If you have a job in a call centre one must be able to talk 
in English and hindi clearly. So a firm basic English background will go a long 
way. Take for example of people in Austria, Italy, Switzland, Germany. The 
medium is German. All the three
 countries use German and Itlay uses I think German and Italian. But these 
countries are self sufficient as far as jobs are concerned and so the students 
studying over here can get a job without English because most of the 
transactions are done in German.I hope I am clear. We need not only English 
Medium of Instructions but we need to modernise our teaching system. We should 
weed out marathi speaking fanatics from the educational system . Many people 
working in the Government educational department cannot draft a simple 
circular. They first write it in Marathi

[Goanet] Drop-outs at Secondary school level - Causes and Remedies

[Sebastian Borges]

 not be adept in Konkani.  Therefore, teacher-guides must be 
provided giving Konkani versions of the text (both Devanagari and Roman 
scripts, since many teachers are not conversant enough with Devanagari ).  
(e) English language must be taught as a library language. Today it is taught 
as if it were the first language of the child.  
(f) An experienced teacher of English must be associated with the preparation 
of subject text-books, in order to ensure that the level of English grammar and 
vocabulary used therein is within the grasp of students in that class.
(g) Language texts are designed to take the child step by step in the 
attainment of proficiency in the actual handling of the language in question. 
However, their utilization leaves much to be desired.  For example, there might 
be a lesson on Festivals which is say fifteenth in the Table of Contents.  But 
the teacher takes it up just before the Ganesh festival, so that the teaching 
would be topical!  Consequently, this throws the child's  grammatical 
progress haywire.  This procedure must be banned; the lessons/topics must be 
covered in exactly the order in which they are lined up in the text. 

Sebastian Borges

(The above appeared in the OPinionatED column of oHERALDo dated 5/4/2011)

Re: [Goanet] Konkani MOI

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Tony,
I find that you are trying to hide behind a technicality of your own making. 
You are asking Freddy to show where specifically you have EXPLICITLY stated 
that Konkani medium students are jackasses. What Freddy had requested you is 
not to IMPLY this. And in your posts (as well as in Albert's) more than this 
was IMPLIED; this would be clear to anyone who understands simple English. All 
the ills of the education system are sought to be placed at the door of Konkani 
medium primaries. Did these ills not exist prior to Konkani being made the 
medium of instruction? And where has Freddy denied their existence? But he has 
asked you whether it is only the Konkani medium students that are the 
beneficiaries of the gracing. Are you in a position to truthfully answer this 
question? Are the examiners / paper setters with English medium primary 
background always better than those who had initially studied in Konkani? Have 
you made a study of this?
Any error in English expression is blamed on Konkani primary. You do this, for 
instance, in this very post with regard to Freddy's using two N's in Konkani. 
Have you read any English article by Tomazinho Cardozo? He always spells the 
word as Konknni. So do Fr. Pratap Naik, Jose Salvador Fernandes, Bosco de 
Sousa Eremita and a host of others. Did they study in Konkani primaries? How 
would you justify this?
You have effectively put a stop to Freddy's posts by laying down a condition 
which just cannot be met; contrary to your contention that it can upload 
Devanagari, Goanet has no provision for correctly uploading even Roman script 
posts in Konkani; even a simple word in Konkani like Goa appears as: “Gõy”. I 
do not think you are unaware of this!

Sebastian Borges 

On 7 Apr 2011 Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote:

. you are putting words in my my mouth that I have never uttered. Where 
exactly and in which post have I explicitly stated that those who have/ are 
studying in the Konkani medium (please note the spelling. It is not Konkanni - 
that only happens to Konkani medium students who have no sense of spelling 
English) are JACKASSES?  

Earlier Freddy Agnelo Fernandes had stated :
 ... I am only asking you not imply that all the Konkanni medium passed
are jackasses and the English medium passed are not.  


Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Medium of Instruction at Primary school level – why mother tongue?

[Sebastian Borges]

 
with those that completed it (in Konkani) during 1994-1998. The process would 
be tedious, considering the amount of data that will need handling. But it is 
not impossible in this age of computerised data-processing. (b) take the X and 
XII results of the last five years and list out there-from the hundred toppers 
(this can be done subject-wise as well, to assess the effect of the medium on 
the child's ability to master a particular subject), mark the primary medium 
against each and work out the statistics language-wise. The same treatment may 
be given to (i) the lowest
 hundred who pass on the borderline and (ii) the lowest hundred among the 
failed candidates. This would be easier, though it would involve quite some 
legwork to peruse the admission forms of the candidates at their respective 
schools. The results of the investigation would not only be instructive, but 
will also facilitate the adoption of corrective measures for any shortcomings. 
(c) There are some urban high schools which have their own primary sections 
teaching in Konkani, and admit more students at the Fifth standard; most of the 
latter come from English primary schools that charge hefty fees, and are 
therefore children of affluent parents who can afford to send them for 
tuitions. Both these groups of students study together from V to X and appear 
for the same SSC examination. The performance of these two groups can be 
compared.

Let the parents ponder over these matters and let the government arrive at a 
rational decision on the basis of the results of this investigation.

Sebastian Borges

(The above article appeared in Navhind Times dated April 03, 2011)

Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
In order to clarify the situation in my own mind vis a vis Fr. Mousinho's 
claim, I had asked Dr. Ferdinando certain straightforward questions. I had 
asked:
(1) How many Jesuit schools and Convents were there in the entire territory 
of Goa during the Portuguese days? (2) How many candidates did they together 
send up for the SSC examination? And what fraction did this number constitute 
of the total number of candidates from Goa? (3) What was the SSC class 
designated as in these schools (VII or XI)? (4) Did Dr. Ferdinando himself have 
classmates in SSC who had earlier completed their primary in Portuguese before 
joining Loyola in the V / VI / VII standard?
And I had also stated my experiences which prompted me to ask all these 
questions.

In reply, the good doctor writes:  
 I had a few classmates in Loyola of the lowest strata of economical status 
who used to come to school walking a couple of miles, bring lunch in a 
?marmite? (?buthi? they called it in Concanim) composed of just cooked rice,raw 
ground chillie massala (mirem), and a piece of dry fish; similar to what 
labourers used to carry to the fields. So nobody was denied education of their 
choice. If Mr. Borges attended Portuguese 'Escola Primaria he should be the 
one to know the reason why and not cast doubts on the then education system.

Does this answer even one of my questions? Did I ask about the economic status 
of students that attended Loyola, their mode of transport, what they ate for 
lunch? And, pray, what bearing does all this have on Fr. Mousinho's claim, or 
on the denial or otherwise of the education of their choice, a question I had 
not raised at all? Did I cast doubts on the then education system? Therefore I 
beseech the knowledgeable doctor to answer my questions to the point, and not 
beat about the bush.

From the information that Fredrick Noronha has put forth, it appears that 
there were about a dozen schools in the whole of GOA which provided 
instruction in English right from the beginning. These would constitute a drop 
in the ocean when we take into consideration the number of Escola Primarias, 
Parochial schools conducted by the Choir Master (mestre) of the respective 
church and those conducted in their houses (or 'vaddo' chapel) by private 
individuals. Again, those English medium schools also admitted mid-stream 
other students who had left the Portuguese stream at various stages. 
Consequently, the students they sent up for the SSC examination were not all 
direct entrants to the English stream.
Compared to the number of Portuguese medium primary schools as stated above, 
there were hardly any Lyceum schools in the villages, not more than a dozen in 
entire Goa. So where did all those Portuguese Primary students go to pursue 
their education further? Obviously the English medium high schools, of which 
there was at least one for a cluster of villages on an average in the Salcete, 
Ilhas and Bardez talukas where the Catholic population was predominant. This 
should give us an idea of the extent to which Fr. Mousinho's statement is a LIE.

Coming to Dr. Ferdinando's claim that during the Portuguese era Parents did 
have their choice it is obvious that they did not. This is not to say that 
they were deliberately denied a choice, but that the prevalent situation 
ensured that they had no choice. For instance, my parents could not have sent 
me to a Marathi or English medium school, even if they so desired, for the 
simple reason that there was no such school nearby. So I was sent to the 
nearest private Portuguese school two kilometres away; and we walked to go to 
school twice a day (in other words, it was a full-day school in two sessions). 
My relatives in Canacona could not send their children to a Portuguese or 
English school for the same reason; they studied Marathi up to the Sixth(!) 
before they (the boys) were old enough to trudge to the nearest Portuguese 
school.  
   

With this I shall await Dr. Ferdinando's response.

Mog asum.

Sebastian Borges




On 27 Mar 2011 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o     drferdina...@hotmail.com 
wrote: 


Fr. Mousinho wrote on ?O Heraldo? : ?During the Portuguese era,
Christians did primary education in Portuguese and switched over to English in
Std V. Hindus did primary studies in Marathi, switched over to Portuguese and
then to English. Neither Christians nor Hindus suffered in the switch-over:
both acquired proficiency in English after the switch-over.?

My last post a reply to Sebastian Borges? post was just to
enlighten him that the statement made by Fr. Mousinho was just a blatant LIE. It
would be incorrect to state that Fr. Mousinho is wrong, as this was a
deliberate LIE. Do not expect anyone to believe that Fr. Mousinho was ignorant
about these facts and believed what he stated to the press.

Mr. Sebastian Borges could get answers to his questions if he
could only reason out what was the population of Goa prior to 1961, and how
many people

Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
I must thank Dr. Ferdinando for eradicating my ignorance. I would crave his 
indulgence to answer a few more questions so that my ignorance is completely 
dissipated. I hope the good doctor will oblige; for this kind act he will earn 
my eternal gratitude. He says,  All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had 
their primary as well as full education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact 
studied in Fatima Convent in Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior 
Class.  
Now, (1) How many “Jesuit schools and Convents” were there in the entire 
territory of Goa during the Portuguese days? (2) How many candidates did they 
together send up for the SSC examination? And what fraction did this number 
constitute of the total number of candidates from Goa? (3) What was the SSC 
class designated as in these schools (VII or XI)? (4) Did Dr. Ferdinando 
himself have classmates in SSC who had earlier completed their primary in 
Portuguese before joining Loyola in the V / VI / VII standard? Answers to these 
will go a long way in determining whether Fr. Mousinho was entirely wrong or to 
what extent.

My own recollection is this: Jesuit schools and Convents were very few and 
restricted to towns. But Portuguese Primary schools (Government as well as 
Private / Parochial) existed in almost every village at least in Salcete, Ilhas 
and Bardez; Catholic students attended these, while Hindus attended Marathi 
schools (up to IV standard) before joining Portuguese schools for Primeiro and 
Segundo grau; however, Lyceum classes were not available in the villages. The 
other talukas did not have as many Portuguese schools, but neither did they 
have any Jesuit schools / Convents; hence even Catholic children studied in 
Marathi schools, before joining English high schools. Again, English high 
schools were widespread in the villages all over Goa (SSC class was designated 
std. VII, because a Primeiro grau pass student was admitted into the Std. I 
which was equivalent to Std. V of the eleven-year school course); their 
contribution to the SSC candidate strength in any
 year was as high as 70 percent if not more. I know at least one gentleman from 
Margao who joined Loyola after completing his Segundo grau and passed SSC in 
1958 (presently, he lives in Mumbai). I also know a classmate of mine who 
studied in Fatima after completing her Primeiro grau, and joined my English 
high school in the pre-SSC class. In other words, not all candidates sent up by 
these Jesuit schools / Convents were direct students into the English Baby 
class.

This ignoramus humbly awaits Dr. Ferdinando's brilliant glow to enlighten his 
dark path.

Sebastian Borges 


On 27 Mar 2011  Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com 
wrote: 


 Normally I would have not responded to such ignorant questions. A person who 
claims to have done ?Segundo Grau? and must be almost 60 years old by now if 
not older, and still is unaware of the schools that imparted primary education 
in English during the erstwhile regime must most probably have living with no 
contact of Goa all these past 50 years. But I am replying to prove Fr. Mousinho 
wrong.

All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had their primary as well as full 
education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact studied in Fatima Convent in 
Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior Class. And the nuns liked me 
so much that they even allowed me to do Standard I in Fatima Convent,although 
they didn?t allow boys to continue in the Convent from Std. I  onwards. I later 
joined Loyola HS along with my brother. Portuguese language was just one 
subject. Later it was made compulsory for students to pass 'Primeiro Grau', ie. 
about when I was in the Forth or Fifth Standard.

I do hope Mr. Borges remembers this and not ask me the same
question again.

Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friens.
On 25 Mar 2011 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com 
wrote: 

 It is a blatant LIE to state that during the Portuguese era,
Christians did primary education in Portuguese. There are schools and convents 
still existing in Goa which imparted primary education in English, and 
Catholics, Hindus as well as Muslims attended them. Those who did in 
Portuguese, continued in Lyceum in the Portuguese language. 

Since my experience of Primqary education matches that of Fr. Mousinho, I would 
request Dr. Falcao to give the names of the schools which imparted primary 
education in English during the 1950's when he himself was a primary student. I 
myself did my primary in Portuguese up to Segundo grau and continued in the 
English medium in my neighbourhood high school; I did not go to Lyceum. 

Sebastian Borges






Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.

  

Re: [Goanet] Glorifying colonialism: Ignorance of history or slavish loyalty? Uday Bhembre,

[Sebastian Borges]

Santosh has hit the nail right on the head!  Further, why should anyone vote 
for a party whose founder and head honcho peddles a blatant lie, makes a 
baseless accusation which flies in the face of the legislative history of Goa? 
In Portuguese days, if you wanted to damn someone all you had to do was to 
brand him a communist; today's equivalent word is communal.  The Official 
Language Act was passed by the Goa, Daman  Diu Legislative Assembly of which 
Uday Bhembre was an Independent Member. He was not a Ruling Party legislator.  
He was not even a Congress supporter, since the Ruling party had a comfortable 
majority on its own. This being the case, how could he have had any part in the 
drafting of the Bill or inserting the impugned words? Was the Congress Party so 
bankrupt of law-makers that they had to rely on outside help? Did Bhembre move 
an Ammendment to insert those words? The fact is that he did not even vote for 
the Bill; he and Luisinho
 Faleiro (another non-Congress member) had walked out of the House in protest 
against the inclusion of Marathi. Therefore, if anyone is to be blamed, it 
should be the members of the then Ruling Legislature party all of whom voted 
for the Bill.  All this can be confirmed by just perusing any newspaper of the 
days when the event occurred. The newspapers are available for perusal at the 
Central Library, Panjim; all that is needed is a desire to know the truth. 
Having been on the high seas, or high on spirits, on the day in question is no 
excuse for not doing one's homework before shooting one's mouth or keyboard!
A person who has no patience to check the relevant newspapers for information 
barely 24 years old, could not be expected to be accurate on matters which go 
back some centuries. So the rest of his post should be treated with the 
contempt it deserves. Why should others do his homework?

Sotachench zoit zatolem.

Sebastian Borges

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Goa was conquered by the Portuguese in 1510. India conquered Goa in 1961. 
Most Goans living in Goa today consider themselves Indian. Why would they want 
to vote for Goa Su-Raj whose founder does not consider himself an Indian, and 
holds Goa's independence from India as his ideal goal? 

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011: floriano floriano.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 Let me respond to Adv. Bhembre's insinuations and expose him as a communal 
mind at work.

1. Adv. Bhembre is one of the main persons to have included 'ONLY IN 
DEVANAGIRI'  in the Official Language Act.
   The word Konkani should have and will have stood all on its own without 
this devious communal insertion. 


Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Happy Liberation Day

[Sebastian Borges]

. In fact, the language used will depend not only on the 
purpose but also on the addressee and the subject matter, among others.
(2) You seem to be carrying an unnecessary load on your heart as evidenced by 
your breast-beating. This is the result of wrong nomenclature. Correct that, 
and the load will disappear; you will be able to walk with your head held high! 
Where is the exclusivity? No one is debarred from the discussion; but the 
reader is certainly alerted to decide for himself the weightage he should give 
to the pronouncements of persons so qualified. Such decision not being imposed 
on any reader, I see no reason to take exception to such qualification; in fact 
it should be welcomed. And the excluded person could always argue why he 
should be included. I feel that the objections such as yours are not just 
untenable but they lead the discussion astray. 
(3) I have no quarrel with this; nor do I know anyone who does. Do you?
   
Would love to read your reaction, even if it is bitter. 

Sebastian Borges

On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:14:03 +0530 Frederick Noronha 
fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear all:

I don't have any special bitterness towards Prof Borges, and even
though I disagree with his approach on script in Konkani, I think it's
worth hearing all points of view, and tune in to his arguments often.

Just for debate:

(1) What is wrong if someone prefers to use one language for one
purpose, and other language for another?

(2) I dislike this Goan form of exclusiveness, which uses any argument
possible to beat down someone-we-dont-like. This
you-act-in-Konkani-but-don't-write-in-Konkani is a new one! There is
also the are-you-an-Indian-citizen argument. I confess to have used
the but-you-don't-even-live-in-Goa-and-have-lost-touch-with-it logic
earlier. We Goans are a divisive people, and will find any excuse to
exclude you from the circle. They remind me of the French, who look
disdainfully upon poorly-pronounced French, not Germans (who are
appreciative even if you know three words in their language). Correct
me if wrong...

(3) Why not accept that different languages have differing roles in
today's Goa (and in the past too)? English and Marathi dominate the
newspaper world. Konkani the local cable/TV world. Konkani in the
fish-markets and streets (for much of the day, except at 7 am on
Sundays, the siesta hours, and the tourist areas). Russian and English
in the tourist world. Hindi in the wholesale markets. Portuguese for
historical research and history seminars (Don't you know
Portuguese?) Etc...

FN

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Happy Liberation Day

[Sebastian Borges]

Goanetters annual year-end meet is on Dec 27, 2010 (Monday) from 4-6 pm at 
Institute Piedade (near Hotel Mandovi, opp Bread  More) in Panjim. Do come 
along. RSVP via SMS 9822122436, f...@goa-india.org or 2409490 (after 2 pm).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

Dear friends,
Wilmix has sent a nice joke as an article. But he could have also sent it in 
Konkani (Roman script) for better impact.  Recently Lino Dourado, had suggested 
that we should write in Konkani and I had suggested that Wilmix send his 
article Survival of the fittest in English as well. Many Goanetters do so; 
Dominic is a recent example. But there is no response from Wilmix. 
Unfortunately, Konkani for him is the language of the stomach; meant to be used 
only on the tiatr stage, and not on the street where English alone reigns. All 
the characters in his joke (not just Ramalingam) communicate in fluent English 
(not even Konklish). So, why do they need Konkani in any script for 
communicating with the Government? Is it too much to expect that we practise 
what we preach?

I wish you all a very Joyous Christmas season.

Mogall Ixttamno,
Wilmix baban articlechea nanvan ek boroso vinod dhaddla. Inglixi vangdda to 
Konknnintui dhaddlolo zalear tacho odhik faido zavpacho. Halinch Linobab 
Douradon ami Konknnint borouncem mhunn suchovnni kel'li tedna Wilmix baban aplo 
to Survival of the fittest lekh Konknnintui uzvaddaunk taka ulo marlolo. 
Amche modle kaim zonn toxem kortat, dekhik Dominicbab. Punn Wilmixbab toxem 
korina. Amchea vaitt noxiban, Konknni mhollear Wilmixbabachi pottachi bhas, 
fokot tiatr machier vaporpachi, rostear nhoi; thoim Inglix eklich ranni! 
Wilmixbabachea articleantlim soglinch patram (fokot Ramalingam nhoi) bori 
Inglix katortat. Zalear serkarak potram borounkoch tankam Konknnichi kiteak 
goroz poddchi? Inglix asach nhoi? Padricho sermanv vhoniekoi lagu zaum-di.

Tumkam sogleank Khuxalbhorit Natalam anvddetam.

Sebastian Borges
  

On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 Wilson Wilmix wilsonwil...@rediffmail.com wrote:

?Happy   Liberation Day? !
(An Article by:  Wilmix Wilson Mazarello)

(Day 19th December  2010,?. Time :  8 am)



(Shri Flavio  meets  Ms. Aurol )

Flavio:  ?Happy Liberation Day?!

Aurol:  What is so happy about ?Liberation Day? ?

Flavio: It is the  19th of December, remember ?

Aurol:  Yes I do remember.  It is the day we Goans fell from the ?frying 
-pan?  into the ?fire?.

Flavio: What ? Are you suggesting that we were ?better off?, during the 
  Portuguese Rule ?

Aurol:  No!  I said , it was like being in a ?frying-pan? thennow 
it is like being  in  ?hot burning fire?.

Flavio: Why do you say that ?

Aurol:  Because then,  I was being robbed by ?outside thieves?. That was 
tolerable. But, today I am being  ?looted- wholesale?,  by my own 
fellow-Goans. That I cannot tolerate.

Flavio: Oh ! you are talking of ?thefts? ? ?Thefts? were there during 
the Portuguese Rule ,  too.

Aurol:  Yes they were definitely there during the Portuguese Rule,  but 
the number  of thefts, murders , rapes, and acts of corruption  during 
the last 50 years is 10 times more than those that happened during the 
450 years of  Portuguese Rule.

Flavio: You may be right there, but what I am talking about is not of 
?thefts? and ?rapes? . I am talking  about is  that with  ?Liberatrion? 
,  our ?Human-Rights?  were restored.

Aurol:  What ?Human Rights? are you talking about  ?

Flavio: Could you openly criticize the Portuguese Rulers ?,  If you did 
, you would be in jail.

Aurol:  And who says you can criticize the Government now ?  Today ,  if 
  you criticize a Minister X, he sends  goondas  to your house, to beat 
up your entire family. If you criticize a Minister Y, the next day he 
sends the ?Income Tax Department?  to raid your house . If you criticize 
a Minister Z , he  sends the ?Police? to  arrest you , for  doing 
things you would?nt  even dream of doing.  Do you need to  know more ?

Flavio: No!  No ! but those are ?misdeeds?  of  some individual 
Ministers.What I am saying is , things like, you can now, openly 
talk in your own mother tongue Konkani.

Aurol:  Who says we could not openly  talk in  Konkani , then ?  In fact 
more people talked in Konkani then,  than people are talking now.

Flavio: What I mean to say is , you can even write to the Government in 
Konkani now.

Aurol : Is it so ? Well let me tell you my , recent ,  personal 
experiences of writing to the Government in Konkani. Recently, our M.L.A 
came to us and told us that the Government is implementing the ?Official 
Language Act? and that if we want our works to be done fast,  then we 
should send all our correspondence to the Government in Konkani. So 
everybody in our village, started writing to all Government Departments 
in Konkani .  Believe me , not only did our works not happen fast, but 
from that day onwards , all our works at the Government Departments, 
came to a ?grinding halt?.

Flavio: How can

Re: [Goanet] Fw: Konkani History

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Augusto,
I had sent you (and GRN) earlier the the first article in the series. But shall 
append it here again.
Yes he is the same Felix who writes Konkani in Roman script, a regular 
contributor to GULAB and THE GOAN REVIEW. He is from Quitula, Aldona. 

Regards,
Sebastian Borges


From  the Cradle of Konkani history: 1

 

Fausto V. da Costa

 

What is Historiography? Does it mean writing about only those things of

which one is aware?  It cannot be denied that Historiography involves a lot

of research, a meticulous and painstaking exercise to unearth and bring to

light facts which may not all be in the public domain.  But, in recent

years, the term is being interpreted as an effort to write about only those

events and happenings one personally knows, only about persons one likes

while ignoring those one does not, and generally blow one's own trumpet.  In

fact there has been an active attempt to twist history to fit one's own

agenda; this is specifically in regard to the history of Konkani language

and the Konkani Tiatr.  Let us bear in mind that, in effect, what is today

being recorded as history is a falsification of History, a diabolical

attempt at suppressio veri suggestio falsi.  When the next generation comes

to use this hodgepodge as reference material and bases its writing on this

history could we blame them?  Have these historiographers pondered over

this aspect?

 

Keeping this in mind, we are bringing out a roll of persons who have

sincerely contributed to the progress of Konkani and who have been,

deliberately or otherwise, ignored or neglected.  We do not rule out the

possibility of shortcomings even in this writing of ours.  But we are of the

firm opinion that facts, in their proper perspective, must be truthfully

recorded.  Therefore, we humbly request our knowledgeable readers to point

these defects and also provide any additional relevant information, in their

possession or knowledge, about these personalities so that proper amends

could be made.   Letters/articles in this regard would be much appreciated.

 

Prof. Armando Menezes (1902-1983)

 

Prof. Armando Menezes was an eminent son of Goa. He was an Educationist

extraordinaire.   Born in Divar, Goa on 11th May, 1902, he contributed

immensely to the field of education.   As a teacher, he shouldered several

responsibilities with distinction. He was Professor of English both at

Bombay and Dharwad. He was a Principal of a College too.

 

His contribution to the field of Konkani language is enormous. After the

Liberation of Goa, the Government of India appointed him Member secretary of

the Goa Education Commission. Based on the recommendations of this

Commission, the Government of India conferred a special status on the

regional language of Goa.

 

Prof. Menezes was a co-founder of the Konkani Bhasha Mandal, Bombay in

association with Shenoy Goembab, Fr. H.O.Mascarenhas, Bakibab Borkar, Adv.

Madhav Manjunath Shanbhag etc. And in 1942, he became its first President .

The same year Prof. Armando functioned as the President of the Third Session

of the All India Konkani Conference which was held first time in Bombay

wherein Shenoy Goembab functioned as the Chairman of the Reception

Committee.

 

Prof. Menezes was the father of the noted writer George Menezes. He expired

in Mumbai on 2nd June 1983.

 

 

 

Valerian Cardinal Gracias (1900-1978)

 

Hailing from Goa's Dramapur village in Salcete, Valerian Gracias was born at

Karachi on October 23, 1900.  He went on to become the first Indian

Archbishop of Bombay on December 4, 1950; then on Jan. 12, 1953, he became

the first Indian to be anointed Cardinal. He was awarded Padma Vibushan in

1966.  The Goregaon Seminary, which celebrates it's golden jubilee this

year,  is one of his dreams that came to fruition.

 

He has voluminous literature in English to his credit; he has also edited

some periodicals.  Cardinal Gracias Speaks and To Revive Old Memories

are two of his well-known works.  He was an accomplished orator and

preacher.  In order to hear his sermons, people would secure their seats

even one hour in advance.  Crowds would throng to his Three Hours' Agony

on every Good Friday.

 

His contribution to Konkani literature is immense.  He had great love for

his mother tongue. He would end his Good Friday sermon in English at Cross

maidan with a 15 minutes long oration in Konkani. He would not only attend

tiatrs but also encourage the artistes by personally meeting them.  He once

told C. Alvares that social and moral messages are conveyed to the people

through tiatrs more easily than through priests' sermons.

 

Cardinal Gracias had great affection for Dor Mhoineachi Rotti.  In

1950-51, he brought the periodical and its editor, Fr. Elias D'Souza from

Karachi to Bombay.  But the Rotti could not be run officially with Fr.

Elias as the editor because he was a Portuguese citizen.  Therefore, Msgr.

Orfino de Sa was named

Re: [Goanet] Who is Soter Barreto

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN,
This is no combat. Nor do we need to fight with our lives to “prove ourselves 
right.” However it is necessary to go to the bottom of a matter, unearth the 
truth and enable the readers to form their own considerd opinions from a 
position of knowledge and not of ignorance and blind faith. Hence I abhor 
sweeping matters under a carpet; the issue does not end there but keeps 
cropping up at repeated nauseating intervals, wasting precious time and 
bandwidth. It is not the question of winning or losing an argument or of 
deciding who was right in the first place, but of arriving at the truth. 

On Sun, 12 Dec 2010  Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

 If the script and dialect used is one they are not familiar with (or one 
they see as being pressurised to use), there will be even fewer who will read 
it.
Response: Sounds logical. So, which script-dialect combination would you 
advocate in order to avoid this situation? And why do you think your system 
should work?
 
  Are you implying that a large number of Goan Hindus (or Goan Muslims, for 
that matter) read Konkani in any script?
Response: No. But please reread my post; do you think this is a fair inference 
therefrom?

 Even if people don't read a language, I believe they should have the right 
to decide about the dialect and script (i) which is used to teach their 
children this language in schools (ii) which is accepted as official in 
contemporary Goa (iii) which is used to judge their efficiency in the language 
when they sit bofore an interview panel for a government job?
Response: Sounds like an enlightened philosophy. Could you cite just one place 
in the entire world where this doctrine has been or is being implemented? 
Alternatively, what makes Goa the ideal place to make a beginning?

 on what grounds is the choice of Antruzi acceptable as the standard form of 
Konkani?
Response: Let us assume that Antruzi is a bad choice. Which other form do you 
think would be generally acceptable, and on what grounds?

 if we have an official language which hardly anyone is using to write to the 
government in, why have an official language at all?
Response: As a matter of fact we do not yet have an official language in 
operation, it is only on paper. For over 20 years, no government has lifted a 
finger towards its implementation. It was only Churchill Alemao who made a 
sincere effort during his shortlived tenure as Minister for Official Language.

 But the reality is that some dialects are treated as more equal than 
others.
Response: The greater reality is that the interviews are just a sham. No 
government job is obtained on merit alone, dialect or no dialect. As a senior 
journalist, I doubt you are unaware of this fact.

Truth shall prevail.
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges
 

Re: [Goanet] Who is Soter Barreto

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
I had asked FN to justify his charge against me by answering the few questions 
I had posed. He has ignored them entirely and instead asks another longish one 
which has no bearing on my earlier statements that did not at all refer to the 
dialect and script of (a) a language taught to children in schools, (b) a 
language which is accepted as official in
a State or (c) a language which is used to judge the proficiency of candidates 
in the language when they sit before an interview panel for a government job. 
Clearly, he is trying to enlarge the scope of the subject and lead the debate 
astray - pl. see the subject line! And he is the one who accused ME of 
injecting script-and-dialect politics into the debate which, until his 
intervention, it was not. But, I am sorry to say, this is the course that many 
debaters on this forum adopt when they want to wriggle out of a situation 
which they have themselves created. I would therefore ask him one question 
which I hope FN will answer, at least this time around: Where have I said all 
that figures in your question?
I could also answer his longish question very succinctly: Certainly not! But 
let me elaborate by considering the following facts, as I understand them. I 
shall be grateful to anyone who shows that I have been mistaken on any or all 
of them.
I. Language taught in schools:
1. There are hundreds of languages in the world which are taught to 
school-children; each of these languages is necessarily WRITTEN in some 
particular script. (2) Each language has several dialects, some of which are 
quite unintelligible to speakers of that very language. (3) Nowhere is a child 
taught her language necessarily in her own dialect; for some of them the 
dialect that is taught happens to be their own, but for the majority, 
considering the multiplicity of dialects, any dialect that is taught would turn 
out to be an imposition. Now, where in the entire world has any literate 
person (that too someone who does not read that language) successfully or 
otherwise insisted that his child be instructed by his government in his own 
dialect and that the same dialect, by implication, be imposed on all the other 
children? To my mind, the very suggestion would be laughed out of court. How 
many dialects does Konkani have in Goa itself? Are we to produce
 schoolbooks in each and every one of the dialects? And, assuming we have done 
so, imagine a child whose parents are transferred from say Salcete to Bardez 
when she has just completed the Second standard; which books should this child 
study? The ones in her own dialect or the ones of the region to which her 
parents are transferred? I think the demand is senseless, being devoid of any 
road-map. If I want to have an existing system changed, obviously, I should be 
prepared with an alternative one. Have these people thought of an alternative 
dialect? If yes, can they justify its imposition on a majority of children 
whose dialect it is not?  
II. Official language:
Official language is necessarily the WRITTEN language of administration. It 
concerns the general public only while intercommunicating with the government. 
These communications are necessarily IN WRITING; i.e. they are written and 
read. If I do not read the official language in any script, why should the 
script in which it is written matter to me at all?
III. Language test at interviews:
The interviews are necessarily ORAL, not written; hence script has no place 
here. Obviously, it is the proficiency in oral communication in the language 
that is being tested, and not the dialect. If it were the latter, and supposing 
I were to be sitting on a panel, every candidate would fail because I speak a 
particular dialect prevalent in the Assolna-Velim-Cuncolim region of Salcete; 
the dialect that a villager of neighbouring Cavelossim (just across the River 
Sal, and within shouting distance) speaks being distinctly different, he too 
will fail! So, could any claim be more ridiculous?

Truth shall prevail!
Sotachench zoit zatolem!

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

Just because a large number of GCs (Goan Catholics) do not read
Konkani in any script, does it imply they should have no preference
about the dialect and script (i) which is used to teach their children
this language in schools (ii) which is accepted as official in
contemporary Goa (iii) which is used to judge their efficiency in the
language when they sit bofore an interview panel for a government job?
FN

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Who is Soter Barreto

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear FN, Please excuse my bluntness.  But I do feel that you barked up the 
wrong tree and proceeded to commit the same crime which you falsely accuse me 
of.
I wish to assert that every sentence of mine is a verifiable fact. Which part 
of my post can even remotely be construed as bringing Devanagari-versus-Romi 
politics into the debate? In fact, there was no debate here until you 
intervened, since Augusto had accepted my observations in the spirit that I had 
made them. So, who is bringing in politics and polemics? Augusto did not say he 
developed any complex as a result of my observations; but I do feel that you 
should do something about yours. Are you embarrassed of being a Goan Catholic? 
If not, what makes you say that Augusto is? But I sure am glad that you did not 
label my observation as ethnic insult. (;-))
Where is the excluding, labelling and stereotyping?
 Where did I say that Konkani should not be promoted in all its forms, dialects 
and scripts?
Where did I say that we need to cut at the roots of English usage in Goa?
Do you know for sure that I have sent my children to English medium schools? If 
not, why direct the question to me? Why don't you take it up with the right 
people?
Did I ever say that we do not need translations?
What relevance do our beards and their colours bear to any debate? If they 
don't matter, why bring them up at all?  Is it necessary that I should have 
something against you in order to justify an honest difference of opinion? Is 
it not possible for two nice persons (and both of us are indeed nice!) to hold 
divergent, even contrary, views about a matter even in spite of strong personal 
bonds?
It is obvious that you have entirely misunderstood my post. Therefore, let me 
explain. I read Augusto's post first on GRN. When I saw Soter Barreto's name in 
the subject column of my Inbox I was surprised. I could not understand why  
anyone should be searching on the Internet for the Soter Barreto I know 
because, far from being a netizen, he is not even computer-savvy; for this, he 
relies on his daughters and nieces. So I presumed that it must be someone else. 
But when I read the post and the poem, I was convinced that it was my friend 
that Augusto was looking for. Hence I decided to respond. 
I already knew that Augusto has published translations from Konkani in 
Devanagari; so, obviously, he reads the language in that script. But two things 
told me that he does not read Roman Konkani: (1) his orthography and (2) he 
missed the poem when it appeared in Romi. This was surprising because (a) he is 
a Catholic Goan (GC), (b) self-styled protagonists of Konkani in Roman script 
(PKR) shout from the housetops that this is the language of GCs (pl. see the 
last two issues of Vavraddeancho Ixtt), (c) some time back, in a Review, 
Augusto had castigated (if I may say so) Damodar Mauzo for using the 'Antruzi' 
dialect in his novel Sunami Saimon (Tsunami Simon), a dialect which is 
anathema to PKR. I have always debunked the above-quoted claim of PKR, since I 
know that a large number of GCs do not read Konkani in any script. But, in my 
opinion until then, this did not apply to the likes of Augusto who do read 
Devanagari Konkani (besides subscribing to
 one of the contentions of PKR). Hence my surprise and complex-giving 
observation.
 I trust that this clears the cobwebs.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges





On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:
On 9 December 2010 05:22, Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Dear friends,

 Augusto's post makes it obvious that, despite belonging to the Goan
 Catholic community, he does not read Konkani in the Roman script; and he is
 certainly not an exception!


Also, why give Augusto a complex about belonging to the Goan Catholic
community [and]... not read[ing] Konkani in the Roman script?

We are great at excluding people, labelling them and even stereotyping.

I would see this as a half-full glass kind of issue and instead say:

Augusto's post makes it obvious that he is trying to appreciate writings in
Konkani, is immensely skilled at translations, and that such individuals
have great roles to play as bridge-builders.

My only complaint against Augusto is that he doesn't do enough translations,
and wastes a lot of his talent :-) He will one day have to answer to his
maker for this :-)

As far as Prof Borges goes, I have nothing personal against him, appreciate
his work on the language issue, but feel that we all need to see this all as
more than a zero-sum game, not just a you-lose-if-I-win scenario. I've met
Prof Borges in real-life, and he's a fine, softspoken gentleman (with a long
white beard) with whom it is difficult to disagree or fight. At least that's
my experience... FN

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Prof Borges, I think you're bringing Devanagari-versus-Romi
politics into the debate. To my mind, the issue is that Konkani
deserves

Re: [Goanet] Who is Soter Barreto?

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,

Augusto's post makes it obvious that, despite belonging to the Goan 
Catholic community, he does not read Konkani in the Roman script; and he 
is certainly not an exception!


Given this fact, his question in the subject line is not surprising, 
because Soter Barreto is one of those many veterans who have been 
ignored entirely in the “Brief History of Konkani in Roman script” 
which, in stead, exaggerates and eulogises even the minuscule 
contribution of self-propagandists who are in the good books of Dalgado 
Konknni Akademy. This lacuna is being remedied to some extent by the 
Konkani monthly GULAB. The English version of the same appears in the 
Konkani-English bimonthly THE GOAN REVIEW, as well as on GoaNet.  Soter 
Barreto lives in Margao, behind Metropole Cinema. Information about him 
appeared in the current (December, 2010) issue of GULAB. Born in 1944, 
Soter Barreto began writing in Konkani in 1962 and has been at it 
continuously and consistently since then. He writes in both Roman and 
Devanagari scripts. He is a regular contributor to GULAB and THE GOAN 
REVIEW; as also other periodicals in Roman script. His Devanagari 
articles and poems appear in JAAG, SUNAPARANT, BIMB, KONKAN TIMES etc. 
He has been awarded by GULAB and Konkani Bhasha Mandal (twice). He is 
also a past Secretary of Konkani Bhasha Mandal.


The poem, that Augusto has posted, itself appeared in the Roman script 
in the  July 2010 issue of  GULAB. It is reproduced here for comparison 
with Augusto’s version. This is not to suggest that there is anything 
amiss, or there are any “errors”, in Augusto's phonetic rendering; but 
it certainly exposes the orthographic mess that exists in Konkani in 
Roman script, in spite of its claimed 500 years of history and tradition!


Nakxeo
Avoyn babdden
Randdponn sonsun
Hanche khatir
Nakxeo zhoroileo.
Hannim mat
Vhonklo zatoch
Apleo nakxeo
Fokot rongoileo.
…..
Cheers.
Sebastian Borges


--- On Tue, 7/12/10, augusto pinto  wrote:

From: augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com


Flipping through the Konkani 'Jaag' which is a monthly published in
the Devanagari script and currently edited by Madhavi Sardessai (in
the past Ravindra Kelekar used to be the editor), I came across a poem
by one Soter Barreto which I liked entitled, 'Avoichem Naksheo'.

Re: [Goanet] To SB re GWS ANNUAL GENERAL BODY MEETING -

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Dr. Jose Colaco,

Muitissimo obrigado! Your gibberish truly befits the mentality of a 
baby-doctor-gone-infantile. I trust it bolsters immensely your defence of one 
of your best friends, the 'Segundo Rei Mago' of q8. He must be thoroughly 
grateful too for your masterly legalisms. 

BTW: You seem to be quite obsessed with using Devanagari for English. But you 
will not be first one to do it. The son of your buddy (whom you always mark 
your cc) has stolen a march over you; long ago, when he was studying in the 
Primary School (Devanagari Konkani), he would take down English telephonic 
messages for his father perfectly in Devanagari!

FYI: I do not sport and have never sported either Fr. or Pe. before my name, 
because I have never been one. So please stop Fr.ing me.


Dominus tecum.

Sebastian Borges 



On 26 Jun 2010 J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:


Preface: The following GENERIC points are jotted down with no reference to
anybody (even Fr. Sebastian Borges and me) or anything (even what Fr.
Sebastian Borges and I will accomplice by way of our writing).

Any resemblance to any Sadaam, Sebastian or Salazar, anywhere in this
Saunsar, is purely coincidental and is not intended.

(This technique is CopyLefted by Tongue in Chicks Accomplice-ments Limitada.
Please use as you see unfit)


My dear Fr. Sebastian Borges,

I agree with you.

a: US $ 100, 000 is pocket change.

b: There is NO need to have Society accounts audited. Society funds should
be held in private accounts.

c: They did not provide audited accounts, why should we?

d: 3 days is not sufficient to revise an advert which distinctly
misrepresents at least ONE facts.

e: It is OK to state that a mis-representative advert is OK, without have
seen the advert.

f: The Secretary of an organization is the one who takes responsibility
(instead of the President), because it is 'His Administration'.

g: Those who comment on a subject which has been blasted into the public
domain, are liable for great 'accomplice-ment'.

h: English is an easy subject. Unfortunately, it is written in the Romi
script. We were sleeping in class anyway.

i: English dictionaries are available, but who cares about the meaning of
words?

j: My Way Accounting is also an easy subject. From Tiracol to Canacona, Mi
Sarkar is in operation. This Audit-Bodit is nonsense.

k: Rs. One lakh is nothing. Rs.49.7 lakhs is even less.

jc
Prejident of Devanagri ONLY for English (DOE)
DOE is a charity-begins-with-self organization
Please give More Dough to DOE.

ps: This is Final Response, unless Referee 'marraos piluk' (No uncouth jokes 
piliss), in which case, it becomes Semi-Final response. Fr. Sebastian Borges 
may have the final shot at goal, if he wishes.

===
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] 'DEBATE'ntle baki urlole prosn - I

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Dalgado Konknni Akademi (DKA) kedna ani kiteak sthaploli hacher mhojean 
ghoddtta titlo uzvadd hanvem ghala mhunn hanv tori somzotam. Mhojea motacher 
konnachich protikriya yeunk na mhunnttoch tumkam-i tem somzolam ani tumi tem 
mandun ghetlam mhunn hanv dhortam. Torui hanv azun hangach kiteak asam? oso 
tumkam prosn poddla astoloch. Tor hache fattlim karnnam sangtam: (a) Sogle 
prosn suttave zalea xivai hanv hem moidan soddun vechom na mhunn hanvem tumkam 
utor dilolem. (b) Kaim vankddim, fottkirim vidhanam nitt korchim urleant, 
zantunt kaim mhojim-i aspavtat; tim toxinch soddop mhaka tori sobchem na. 
Mhojim kaim fottkirim vidhanam nennarponnan upzol’lim zalear her kaim hanvem 
mud'dom' kel'lim, sot khonnun bhair kaddche khatir. Tim toxinch soddop mhonnje 
fuddle pillge khatir vankddi mahiti toyar korun dovorop, tancher oneay-ch nhoi 
tor patok korop. Dekhun tim atam nittayer ghalunk zai.
'Debate' hea Inglez utracho kaim zonn oso somoz kaddttat: addgam naddgam korun 
koxe-i bhoxen sotacher pangrunn ghalop, tem bhair sorchem nhoi mhunn proyotn 
korop. Mhozo somoz oso: mhojem mull mhonn'nnem lottkem tharlear cholta, punn te 
vixim  sot kitem tem vachpeank / aikopeank ani mhaka-i kollchem. Sotacher 
adharun ghetlolo nirnnoy-ch niticho tharta. Tor tea prosnank hat ghalum-ia.
1.  Hi 'DEBATE' V-Ixtt potrar suru zal'li. Romi Konknni ho xobd vaporcho 
nhoi mhunn jedna Tomazinho baban fotvo soddlo tedna hanvem tachea tea fotveak, 
mhojim karnnam diun, virodh kel'lo; ho xobd, mhaka khobor asa te pormannem, 
Tomazinho babanuch suru  kel'lo  mhunn hanvem tedna davo kel'lo ani te khatir 
GULAB mhoinalleachi govay dil'li. Te adim to xobd mhoje nodrek poddloleacho 
mhaka ugddas naslo. Uprant Tomazinho baban aple govaye vorvim tea xobdacho 
vapor apnna poilim sabar mhan boroinnaramni kela mhunn pottoun dilam. Tem hanv 
mandun ghetam. Oslea manadik borovpeamni vaporlolea xobdak virodh korop 
mhonnche, mhojea kontan, tankanch okman korop. Punn ho xobd Tomazinho baban 
itlo 'popularize' kelo ki to atam somest lokacho zala; to atam kaddun uddovop 
xok'ya na mhunn  halinchea kallant uzvaddak ailolea sabar zonnanchea 
borovpantlean kollun yeta. Itlench nhoi tor 'Times of India' disallem ROMAN 
KONKANI ho xobd osoch azun vaprit asa. Mhunnttoch to xobd
 kayom' urtolo ani, hache velean, hanvem kel'lo virodh sarko aslolo mhunn 
sid'dh zalam.
Punn aple purave ditana Tomazinho baban Fr. Freddyn, DKAcho  Odheokx mhunn soy 
kel'lo 1988 vorsantlo 'Press-note' apnna kodden asa mhunn jedna sanglem, tedna 
mhaka Tomazinho babachea sabar pavtti kel'lea vidhanacho ugddas ailo: Romi 
Konknnicher zal'lea oneayacher zhuzunk 1989 vorsa DKA sthapon kel'li. Hea 
vidhanak virodh kirun hanvem fattlea vorsachea Jun mhoineant 'Gomantak Times' 
disalleak potr boroilolem ani tech borobor DKAn 1988 vorsa porgottlolea 
pustokachi 'Xerox' prot zoddloli. Mhonnje DKA 1988 vorsant hea sonvsarant 
asloli mhunn mhaka khobor aslolich. Punn Tomazinho bab hem mandun gheunk toyar 
naslo. Atam jedna toch sangta 1988 vorsantlo DKAcho dakhlo apnna kodden asa 
mhunn, tedna tannench to uktaddar haddlear mhojem mhonn'nnem sid'dh zaunk 
xoktalem. To dakhlo tannench zaun uktaddar haddcho mhunn yevzun, hanvem taka 
'forgery' mhonnlem. Punn Tomazinho baban hacho bholtoch orth vachpeam fuddeant 
dovorlo: tacher asa ti soi Tomazinho baban
 'forgery' korun kelea, oso arop hanvem apnnacher ghala mhonnot bob marli. 
Dakhleak 'forgery' mhonnop ani dakhleacher asa ti soy 'forgery' korun kelea 
mhonnop hanche modem kitlo forok asa tem tumich somzunchem, hi mhoji vinonti. 
Hanvem zori toxem mhonnunk naslem zalear to dakhlo uktaddar yeunchoch naslo, 
karonn to tacheach tabeant aslo. Atam to uktaddar yeun somestancho zala. Toxem 
korche khatir hanvem anik ek vankddo dakhlo mukhar dovorlo: DKAcho emblem'. 
Tedna hanvem Tomazinho babachim vidhanam mud'dom' korun fuddem dovrunk nant, to 
xidduk zait mhunn; xivay emblem’ soglea vachpeanchea dolleam mukhar aslem 
zalear Tomazinho babachim vidhanam vachunk vachpeamni Ponnje Central Library-nt 
vechem poddttolem aslem. Atam to prosn sasnna khatir mittla. Hatuntlean anik ek 
sot uktaddar ailem: DKA emblemacher jem Sthap 1989 oxem asa tem chuklam ani 
thoim 1988 oxem asunk zai mhunn tumkam pottlam astolench, karonn Tomazinho 
baban oxem ghoddlam astolem
 mhonnpachem jem nib dilam tem visvas dovorpa sarkem na. Punn oxem kortana 
hanvem vachpeancho zaito vell hogddailo, DKA-chea 'minutes' vixim goirsomoz 
nirmann kelo. Te khatir aiz hanv vachpeanchi mafi magtam. Mhozo hetu lokxant 
dovrun tumi mhoji chuk somzun vhortole mhunn patyeun ravtam.

Her prosn fuddle pavtti.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.

Mog asum.

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] To SB re GWS ANNUAL GENERAL BODY MEETING - REPORT

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Dr. Jose Colaco,
Many thanks for your message.
It is commendable that you are trying to defend one of your best friends, as 
such friends who come to your aid in times of need are hard to come by. I can 
only wish you luck. But I have no such mission, since I do even know personally 
any of the persons involved. And my opinion is based on whatever I can 
recollect having read on the issue in the recent past. Let me also clarify that 
I have not seen the advertisement.

When you say IF Gaspar is wrong, he is wrong. BUT, if he is NOT wrong, I know 
that you will join me in saying so you are only stating a truism because it 
applies to each one of us, including the opponents of Almeida. But we must have 
some proof of his innocence in this matter. Thus far, we have only accusations 
thrown at him. Unfortunately, he is not coming forward with his defence; he has 
just clammed shut. All that we have is his friends waxing eloquent on his 
qualities of heart and the good work he does / has done in the past. But this 
is just diversionary, and has absolutely no bearing on the case as, to my mind, 
even a saint is liable to commit errors. And, when Almeida's best friends give 
hints of misdemeanor on his part, one may suspect that a more grave error must 
have been committed.

To your query whether 3 DAYS was enough time to revise the advert my answer 
would be in the negative, because I would need to know the reasons for the 
delay of 3 HUNDRED+ DAYS. I might want to know about the event that occurred 
THREE or FOUR days prior to the APPEARANCE of the advert which prompted Almeida 
to effect the handing over. Was it done with the sole intention of scotching 
the publication of the advert? If yes, that would point to dishonesty. 
Moreover, you have not mentioned details of the handing over like TO WHOM the 
things were handed over, in WHOSE presence, under WHOSE direction / supervision 
etc.

The POIXE part is the most intriguing. From what has appeared on the net, I 
find that the Almeida team was in office for at least a couple of years before 
the Coelho team was duly elected. And the Incoming team claims that the 
Outgoing team has been holding on to the records (which, to my mind, would 
include Bank accounts) for at least a year. Therefore, would it be wrong to 
assume that it is the Almeida team which is holding on to the POIXE? You claim 
to have seen the record of things that were handed over; did this include the 
POIXE too? The Almeida team too must have operated Bank accounts of GWS funds. 
In which Banks, and in whose names, were the accounts operated? Do you find 
that the irregularities that you mention existed during Almeida's tenure too? 
If yes, what steps were taken by Almeida's team to correct them?

In pursuance of your brief, you seem to be trying to shift the maximum 
possible, if not the entire, blame from Secretary Almeida to HIS President. You 
are probably quoting law books when you say, (a) Responsibility for ANY action 
or inaction lies MAINLY with the President, not solely with the Secretary, and 
(b) Tradition has nothing to do with the presentation of Audited accounts at 
an AGM.  IF any team has NOT provided them (Audited accounts), the President 
should be slammed. I do not know how many law books the founders and past / 
present office-bearers of GWS have read. But I do know that in many 
organizations it is the Secretary who calls all the shots, the President being 
just a figure-head. You could have consulted your friend on this aspect to know 
the exact situation prevailing in the GWS. Moreover, it is nobody's case that 
Secretary Almeida flouted the directions of HIS President; nor does Almeida 
claim that he withheld the records for an
 inordinately long time under directions of HIS President. It is also not 
stated that he finally handed over the things following or flouting the 
directions of his President.

And if, as you say, the GWS is unlikely to be put back on rails, I would not 
want to waste my time on this issue. But until the final word is said, I think, 
we can hope for the best.

Sincerely,
Sebastian Borges


 
 
On 24 Jun 2010 J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:


Once again, I thank you for your post in which you have raised very
valid and well made points points. A few of the points actually
crossed my mind before I scripted that post. Hence, I made it my
business to check before I hit the SEND button.

On my part, at the outset, let me reiterate that I too have no
personal interest in the dispute as I am not a member and I do not
know of any of my relatives being members of GWS. The person, singled
out for special attention i.e. Gaspar Almeida is one of my best
friends

Not only was he singled out, MY private e-space and (I believe) Goan
sensibilities were offended by the plastering of this stuff on GoaNet
and other sites.

Even so ... and I mean it, IF Gaspar is wrong, he is wrong. BUT, if he
is NOT wrong, I know that you will join me in saying so

Re: [Goanet] To SB re GWS ANNUAL GENERAL BODY MEETING - REPORT

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Dr. Jose Colaco,
Thank you for your post.
At the outset, let me reiterate that I have no personal interest in the 
dispute as I am not a member and I do not know of any of my relatives being 
members of GWS. And I do not personally know any of the disputing parties; 
therefore, the question of my taking sides just does not arise. My only concern 
is that two groups in a GOAN organization are embroiled in an internecine 
quarrel, to the detriment of the Society which has done a lot of good work in 
the past. My desire is to see that the Society is put back on rails in the 
shortest possible time. The search for reasons behind this impasse should be 
only for the purpose of avoiding them in the future.
 
Having said that, I find that your role is limited to prove that, if there was 
any delay, the responsibility does NOT fall in the lap of Almeida. You say that 
if there was no handing over of documents etc by the Outgoing Committee to the 
Incoming Committee, the fault lies with the President (whoever it is) and not 
with Almeida who was only the Secretary. Yet you assert that it was Almeida 
himself who handed over whatever it was, and that this was done 'BEFORE' the 
impugned adverts appeared in newspapers. But you do not state the DATE on which 
this was done nor the person/s TO WHOM this handing over was done. Was it done 
just a day prior to the appearance of the ad? Or was it on the day following 
the election? Please note that your 'BEFORE' encompasses a period of at least a 
year! If there was a delay, is any explanation provided? And was this handing 
over done under instructions of the ex-President? And what is the 
ex-President's explanation
 for delaying the instructions, if any? Or, do I understand that your brief 
ends with diverting the blame from Almeida?
Does the Society have a tradition of presenting audited accounts at general 
body meetings? Did the Outgoing Committee present one before it demitted office?
Just being in office is not sufficient to prove incompetence. Let me cite an 
example. The Government of Goa appointed Dr. J. C. Almeida as the first 
Chairman of Goa Public Service Commission but did not provide any 
infrastructure to carry on his functions. Consequently, he could do nothing 
worthwhile. Can we, therefore, say that Dr. Almeida was incompetent? And I do 
remember having read somewhere on the internet an appeal to members of GWS to 
send in the particulars of their membership, because the Committee does not 
possess the Record thereof; the 'manipulation' part, perhaps, came to light in 
the course of such scrutiny? But I am only thinking aloud!
Isn't ONE YEAR a long enough wait before inserting an advert in newspapers?
I still feel that some well-meaning persons in Kuwait should come forward to 
cut this Gordian knot, instead of further exacerbating the situation.
 
With best wishes,
Sebastian Borges
 
 
 
On 23 Jun 2010 15 J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Sebastian Borges,

Outgoing teams must hand over all documents etc to the Incoming team,
that too in a timely fashion. You are very right. This effects a
smooth transition. As far as I know, it is the responsibility of the
outgoing President to ensure that this happens or provide a very
good reason why it has not happened. If Gaspar Almeida was the
outgoing President, the responsibility would remain in his lap. If he
was not the outgoing President, the responsibility would NOT fall in
his lap.

BTW: I have now seen jpeg documentary proof of what was handed over by
Gaspar Almeida BEFORE the advert appeared in the Goa Newspapers (a
jpeg version of which I have also seen).

The public advert in Goa Newspapers signed by President Coelho and
Treasurer Pimenta has made it impossible for peace between these two
groups. Those who wanted unity should have thought twice about the
names they placed in the advert.

Where I disagree with you is on the points of Audit and Quorum.

If I am reading this correctly, President Wilson Coelho was in office
for a whole year before he posted his report on GoaNet. He has NO
excuse for not  providing AUDITED accounts for the year. As far as the
REPORT stated, unaudited accounts were provided. An audit would have
served to confirm that No Hanky-Panky took place.

Is anyone suggesting that President Wilson Coelho's team was so
incompetent that they were unable to write a note to all (known)
members via email, Goanet, Goan Causes et al asking them to verify
their status as members etc?

None of this discussion should divert attention from the questions I
have posted earlier to President Wilson.

And until he answers those questions - the best one can assign to his
'administration' are negligence and incompetence.

good wishes

jc

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] re GWS ANNUAL GENERAL BODY MEETING - REPORT

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
The discussion in this thread seems to be moving away from finding a solution 
to the dispute. And that would be a cause for concern all around; for who would 
wish that our hardworking brothers in the Gulf get embroiled in such 
internecine qarrels?
 
As I understand it, the problem seems to be the non-handing over of the 
documents and assets of the Society by the outgoing team of Gaspar Almeida to 
the incoming team headed by Wilson Coelho; and that too for over a year. Why 
should this happen? Wasn't the new Committee duly elected after following the 
usual procedure? If no, did the then Secretary (Almeida) take any steps to 
ensure that this was done? If the new Committee was properly elected, why did 
the old Comittee hold on to the documents and assets? What came in the way of a 
smooth change-over? What could be the way out of this impasse? And, oddly, 
Almeida is not explaining his side of the case! He may be, as claimed, a man of 
few words; but he is not exactly dumb! Therefore his silence is deafening.
 
Instead of tackling these issues, we have posts either praising one of the 
parties or denigrating the other. But do such certificates and strictures have 
any bearing on the dispute? Dr. Jose Colaco goes even further. The questions he 
asks are not only irrelevant to the solution of the dispute, but could be 
better answered by the other party which had been in office for a few years 
(unless Coelho too has been an office-bearer in the past). It is good that 
Coelho has left the questions alone, at least for the present. None of them 
relates to the smooth change of guard, following an election; they can only 
lead the discussion astray. For instance, in what way does it matter to the 
dispute whether the Society is registered or not? If it has survived for 20 
years without any serious problem, does it really matter whether it has a 
written constitution or not? The quorum is some fraction of the total 
membership or a certain minimum number; if, as
 claimed, the Committee is not in possession of the Records (and therefore, the 
list of members), how do they calculate the required quorum? Does the Society 
have a tradition of presenting an audited statement of accounts at the annual 
general body meeting?  And if, as claimed, the old Committee did not hand over 
the Books to the new Committee, how could the latter prepare any accounts for 
auditing? For instance, what figure would they put against Opening Balance?
 
I feel that the questions asked by Dr. Colaco would only worsen the situation. 
By unnecessarily heaping praises on one of the parties at the outset, and 
directing his questions to the other, he has only exposed his bias.
 
Finally, isn't there in the entire State of Kuwait just one person, not 
necessarily a Goan, who commands the confidence of both the factions? Why not 
some members of the Society avail of his/her good offices to bring the two 
parties together? Let the deadlock be resolved amicably at the earliest 
possible.
 
I wish them luck and God's grace.
 
Mog asum.
 
Sebastian Borges  
 
 
On 21 Jun 2010  J. Colaco   jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: 

GWS ANNUAL GENERAL BODY MEETING - REPORT

Dear President Wilson Coelho,

Allow me to declare up front that the good hard-working Goans of the
Gulf are dear to my heart. Contrary to what some Goans in Goa believe,
you guys work very very hard in order to support your families in Goa
and consequently, Goan businesses in Goa.

Of all the Gulf-Goans I have known, I have come to particularly admire
the tireless Gaspar Almeida. I do not need to repeat hear how (as I
have heard from 3rd parties) he helped Goans displaced after the first
Gulf War.

All this to state that whenever Gaspar's name appears, I am
interested. He is after all, my brother i.e. Gaum-Bhau.

Now, wrt the REPORT you posted on GoaNet, I had the following initial
observations:

a: Not again!
b: What exactly is Wilson talking about?


So, please, allow me to ask a few queries. If you are (or anyone else
is) able and willing to find the answers to the following, please do
the honours:

[1] Is the circa 20 year old Goa Welfare Society (GWS) a registered
society? If so, where is it registered and as what?

[2] Does the GWS have a written Constitution?

[3] If it does, what is the set quorum for the Annual General Meeting?
Did you meet the quorum for the past AGM?

[4] At this AGM, were audited accounts for the preceding year
presented? (Is your treasurer, Mr. Pimenta an certified accountant?;
not that it is essential for a treasurer to be an accountant). Have
audited accounts ever been submitted to the AGM during your tenure as
President?

[5] Does the GWS hold any accounts in any banks? If the bank accounts
are in India, is the GWS registered in India? If not, are the funds
held in proxy-names? Is that legal in India, according to you?

[6] What exactly do you mean by the prevailing situation in your
statement .. 'no additional funds could

[Goanet] Dispute/Crisis in Goan Welfare Society, Kuwait

[Sebastian Borges]

 
Dear friends,
The reported dispute in Goan Welfare Society, Kuwait does not augur well for 
the reputation of Goans in general and of Diaspora Goans in particular. Good 
conduct certificates such as the one issued by Rocky Fernandes are of no avail 
when the current President (Wilson Coelho) has made specific serious 
allegations against the ex-General Secretary  (Gaspar Almeida) who, perhaps 
being a man of few words, has not, to the best of my knowledge, responded.
With a view to solve this impasse, I would humbly suggest that the two have a 
face-to-face debate on the issue.  I have no doubt that goa-world.com team 
would come forward to bear all the expenses connected with the debate, as they 
had recently made a similar offer in another issue. 
Sotachench zoit zaum-di.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges
On 20 Jun 2010 Rocky Fernandes rocky.fernande...@gmail.com wrote:
 
…I have had the privilege to meet with Mr. Gaspar Almeida on a couple of 
occasions and his pleasant and realistic approach to the needs of  Goans speak 
volumes and this is the real cause for some disoriented persons of loose 
characters to blame for all his or his cronies follies and enjoy the spoils on 
the cost of others reputation and honour. Wake up GWS committee members and 
Kuwait Goans!



On 19 Jun 2010 Wilson Coelho wilson_coe...@hotmail.com wrote:


…… In the process of re-registration, the Managing Committee has discovered 
that there have been some manipulations in the Membership Cards which were 
issued by the ex-General Secretary, Gasper Almeida, and the same needs to be 
scrutinized and corrected, with proof of Receipt of fees paid and details on 
the Membership Forms.
  


On 31 May 2010 Wilson Coelho wilson_coe...@hotmail.com wrote:
 We hereby request all the Members of the Goan Welfare Society ? Kuwait to 
cooperate with us to get the records of Membership updated. Please be advised 
that the Managing Committee of Goan Welfare Society is no longer in possession 
of their own original records. The Ex-General Secretary is holding all the 
records and has refused to hand over the same to the duly elected Managing 
Committee, despite several reminders.  After exercising maximum tolerance not 
to go public on the issue, we are left with no choice but to take this step.

Further, all the Members of the Goan Welfare Society ? Kuwait, may 
kindly note that the ex-President continues to hold funds belonging to 
the Goan Welfare Society ? Kuwait, and he has failed to turn these funds over 
to the duly elected Managing Committee, despite several attempts to recover the 
same from him.

On 19 May 2010 “Gasper Almeida gas...@makharafi.net wrote:
 RE: GT 'Debate' Soddun Konn Pollon Ghelo? Hanv vo Borges bab?
All expenses related to this ‘Debate’ will be borne by www.goa-world.com team.
 
Guaranteed.
 
In support and the genuine interest of Konkani and Romi Script.
 
Ulysses Menezes  Gaspar Almeida 
www.goa-world.com 
Moderator, Gulf-Goans e-Newsletter 
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/gulf-goans/
 
Sebastian Borges 
 

[Goanet] DKA - when and why formed? - Part III

[Sebastian Borges]

 are claimed to have 
been bypassed while bestowing literary awards (the list has never been 
published), the DKA cannot find even a handful who are capable of either 
handling the above tasks or guiding youngsters in the art of writing in a 
uniform manner! This is akin to saying that we have several eminent writers who 
cannot write correctly in Romi Konkani! Or, is this situation of the 
Secretary’s own making, for his own advantage?
 
Should any reader have a better explanation for the facts that were stated 
herein earlier, please come forward and share it with us. I shall be most happy 
to learn about it. It will only help to correct any skewed notions I may be 
harbouring on this account. Let us get to the bottom of it all and unveil the 
truth. It is not a question of winning or losing an argument but of mutual 
enlightenment.
 
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges 
 

[Goanet] DKA -- when and why formed? -- Part II

[Sebastian Borges]

 the members rested on 
their oars.
6.    The Akademi was REVIVED in May 2004. Owing to a tragic event, the 
Committee was reconstituted in June 2004. As late as Nov. 2004, the President 
of the revived DKA (Tomazinho Cardozo himself!) set down, among other things, 
the aims and objectives of the Akademi. The full write-up can be viewed here:

http://lists.goanet.org/htdig.cgi/goanet-goanet.org/2004-November/107341.html
or at:
http://tinyurl.com/38lmvlq

   From this, we gather that the Akademi published in 2008 the 'Konkani 
Orthography in Roman Script' with the intention of bringing about a desirable 
unity among the writers, so that the writers could understand the principles 
and rules of writing Konkani in Roman script.  We are also informed that, 
before it went into hibernation, a number of programmes were conducted in 
various parts of Goa to popularize Roman script and Konkani written in it.

The various aims and objectives that the new Executive Board (2004) had set for 
itself include (a) to strengthen Konkani in Roman script, (b) to promote 
Konkani language in Roman script, (c) to preserve, foster and develop Konkani 
written in Roman script because Goan Christians read it, (d) to make all 
efforts to provide support, financial and otherwise, for writers of Konkani in 
Roman script, (e) to initiate various activities in literary, cultural and 
social field through all the modern means of social communication, (f) to 
provide financial assistance, and scholarships to writers, dramatists, talented 
important people, scholars and students to carry out research and other 
undertakings in the field of Konkani, (g) to hold and organize seminars, 
conferences, workshops, exhibitions, lectures, competitions of different types, 
(h) to undertake and edit Konkani folk songs, music, folk literature, stage 
performances and other expressions of Konkani culture,
 (i) to provide Library and documentation centre facilities to the students, 
writers, teachers, producers and actors/actresses of Konkani, (j) to collect 
and preserve Konkani documents, records, books and objects scattered with 
individuals and families which are related to the cultural and literary 
development of Konkani, (k) to focus on promoting, assisting, and undertaking 
publications of children's literature in Konkani along with providing books or 
magazines in Konkani language to the libraries and institutions, (l) to make 
untiring efforts to preserve our identity through Konkani language irrespective 
of the scripts in which it is written.

Going through the above aims and objectives, nowhere do we find any trace of 
fighting for anything. Even the Action plan for 2004-2005 does not list a 
single activity which could be even remotely associated with fighting. The 
article, in fact, ends with: Our aims and objectives in reviving Dalgado 
Konknni Akademi are very clear. It is our duty to support writers of Konkani in 
Roman script and to provide qualitative literature to thousands of readers of 
Konkani in Roman script. It is also our paramount responsibility to see that 
our Christian community loves their mother tongue Konkani and is proud of its 
Goan identity.

In short, the motive of fighting against the injustice meted out to Konkani in 
Roman script was never on the agenda of DKA even as late as the end of the 
year 2004, i.e. for over 16 years after its establishment. Obviously, this 
agenda was brought on board post-2004.

Considering all the foregoing, does any reader believe that the DKA was 
established in 1988 in order to fight the injustice meted out to Konkani 
written in Roman script? If yes, I would be eager, and obliged, to learn the 
reasons thereof. (to be concluded)
   
  
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges 

Re: [Goanet] Amkam khorench husko kai Konknnicho ?

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Goirsomoz zauncho nhoi mhunn porthun sangtam; mhaka zannkarponnacho kosloch 
odhikar na. Hanv kitem boroitam tem mhojem kirkoll MOT; tumkam pottlem zalear 
ghevpachem, na zalear soddpachem ani tatunt chuk asa ti dakhoilear mhojer to 
upkar thartolo karonn mhaka xikonk mellttolem. Punn Faustbaban ji pod'dot 
vaporlea ti mhaka tori vichitr dista. Eka novea utracho Inglix orth koll'llo 
mhunn tem utor vaprunk mellttolem mhunn na; tacho onteasvor (ending), gender, 
declension / conjugation koll'llea uprantuch tacho vapor korunk zata ani 
tednanch korcho. Na zalear gholl zaum-ieta . Eka Inglix utrak sabar orth 
asum-ietat; tantuntlo khoincho tea novea utrak lagta ani khoinche lagonant tem 
khobor (got'tu) naslear hanxem korun ghevpachi palli yeum-ieta. (Ttikett 
ektthaim korunk gel'lom mhonnlolea porim). Hachekhatir ek upay asa; 
Mongllurkaranche, oslim utram aspavtole, lekh GULAB vo GOAN REVIEW bi 
Goykaranchea masikamni uzvaddaun tea utranche orth (zaum Inglix, zaum
 Goyche, zaum donui) konsamni dium-ietat. Avoddle zalear Goykar borovpeank te 
vaprunk sompem zatolem. Torui ek oddchonn urtach; kitle-i tras ghetle zalear 
kaim utranche uchchar dakhounk zaunchem na. Ani ek dhvoninixtth (phonetic) lipi 
vaporlea xivay haka poryay na. Itlem sangun, atam Faustbaban mukhar haddlolea 
utrancher mhojem mhonn'nnem.
hOl ['goal' hea Inglix utrakodde rhyme zata] = field, hem utor Kan'nddi bhaxent 
asa. Punn tacho vapor Konknnint halinch savn zata zait; karonn thoinchea 
koxamni tem mhaka mellonk na. Ghoddie Monglluri Konknnint tem titlem chaltem 
nasot. Punn tacho vapor (onteosvor, gender, declension bi) koso kai? Mhaka 
got'tu na!
'gad'de': hem utor 'god'de' oxem Kan'nddint melltta. Punn Konknnint 'gado' 
(masculine) hem teach orthachem utor asa. Oslench anik ek heach orthachem utor 
Goyant (chodd xem nhoi) cholta: gozon [To goznint gela]. Mongllurant hacho 
vapor zata kai? Hea utrak omkoch ek 'restricted' orth asa kai? Zanna zal'leamni 
hacher uzvadd ghalcho.
'got': hanga Faustbaban don VEGLLEA utrancho sangodd kela. Mhaka got't(u) na 
= mhaka khobor na. Got'tu (masculine gender) = knowledge, inkling. Hem utor, 
mhaka dista, heach orthachea Kan'nddi gurtu hea utra velean ailam. Konknni 
jiber rt hachen t't, rn hachem n'n zavpachi sonvoy amkam khobor asach.
Dusrem utor got (feminine, with short i ending) = state, condition. Hem-i 
utor, heach orthan Mongllurant vapuddttat. Hacher-ui Faustbaban 
Mongllurkaranchem mot ghetlear faideachem thartolem. Hanga amchem groping in 
the dark mhollear odhik ghuspagondoll korunk xokta.
Mhojea suchovnneancher Faustbaban jerul vichear korcho.

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges   



Message: 4
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:08:26 +0530
From: Fausto Da Costa fau...@vsnl.net
To: goanet@lists.goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Amkam khorench husko kai Konknnicho ?
Message-ID: 00bb01cb08aa$96106330$2101a...@comp1
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
reply-type=original

Ixttamno,
Prof. Borges bab, oxem boroita: Tor hem mhojer kiteak soddop? Hanv konn 
mhunn? Konknnicho vidvan? Khoinchea adharar?
Mhozo sompork asloleam modem hem kam' sogleam poros bore toren korpachi 
kopxi Prof. Borges asa hem mhaka, mhozo Konknni mollailo onnbhov sangta ani 
dekhunuch hanvem hem kam' tancher sompoitam mhonn boroil'lem. Tannim 'KOK' 
hea sobdacher  aplem mot dilam tem hanv Eric bab, J B Moraes bab hanche 
mukhar manddttam. Title mhunnosor heam utrancher tumchem mot divpak magtam: 
hol'la (xet) hem utor Kan'nadd bhaxentlem ani atam Mongllurant Konknnint 
vapuddtat, tech porim xetak te 'gad'de' ho-i sobd vapuddtat. Tujem mot...
Anik ek mhollear - Mongllurkar 'mhaka got na' mhonnttat tacho orth mhaka 
khobor na, punn ami 'got' ho sobd veglle toren vapuddtat, udharonnak : 'oxi 
tachi got zalea'. Hacher matxe uzvadd ghalxi Prof. bab.
Dev borem korum.
Fausto

Re: [Goanet] BORGES BAB-AK NIMNNO ZABAB - 'DEBATE' KORUNK RAJI ZA

[Sebastian Borges]

 hatant gheum-ia. Fuddem haddlolea vixoyacher dogainchem sohomot 
(agreement) zalem zalear, to thoinch soddop ani fuddlea prosnar vochop. Hem 
tuka man'volem zalear, rokhddech vavrak lagum-ia, Tomazinho bab. 

Survatek, aiz porian kholayen bhasabhas chol'lea tea vixoyacher tori amchem 
sohomot zalam zalear polleum-ia. Mhojea kispan, sogle purave kontak dhorun zo 
nirnnoy aila to oso: (a) DKA 1988 vorsa zolmant aili, 1989nt nhoi; ani (b) ti 
sthapli Romi Konknnichi sorvoi vottamni udorgot korunk, ani nhoi Romi 
Konknnivelea oneayancher zhuzpak. Ho nirnnoy tuka man'ya asa? Fokot 'hoi' kai 
'na' itlench sang. Magir, hache velean vachpeank kollttolem amche modlea konnak 
sotachi fikir asa poi tem.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges



On 09 Jun 2010 tomazinho cardozo tomazinho@gmail.com wrote:

09/06/10

BORGES BAB-AK NIMNNO ZABAB

Khoinchoch vixoy chorchek haddlea uprant ti chorcha akhrek somponk zai. 
Eka vixoyacher dogam zannamni kholayen bhasabhas kelea uprant te 
chorchent konnachem sangnnem sarkem aslem ani konnachem sagnnem sarkem 
naslem hacher konnem tori nirnnoy diupak zai. Ani oxem ghoddpak osleo 
chorcha eka-meka somor zaupak zai tantun konnache mud?de sarke asle ani 
konnache mud?de sarke nasle tacherui nirnnoy zaunpak zai.

Ji ?DEBATE? mhoje ani Borges bab-a modhem chol?lea tantun tem ghoddona. 
Zo poriant tem ghoddona to poriant tech tech mud?de portun yeta ani zonn 
eklo aplench khorem mhunnonk fattim sorona. Orthacho onorth korun 
apunnuch jikle mhunn kaim zann pemprem vazoita. Hea khatir Borges bab-ak 
hanv anik zabab diunchona.

Punn amcho Borges bab rokddoch mhunnttolo ki hanv poll kaddunk sodtam 
mhunn. Tea khatir Borges bab-ak spoxtt sangtam. Romi lipik Devnagori 
lipi borobor ?Goa Official Language Act?-an ek sarkem sthan mellonk zai 
ho amcho ?demand? dorun Konknni sombondit anik kosleay vixoyancher tuje 
koddem uktti ?face to face?  ?DEBATE? korpak hanv raji asam. Tuven vhoir 
kaddleai te proxn mhunttlear Romi lipi vaprunt konn duddu zhoddta, konn 
pochoita ani konn nagoita, konn dukor posta ani konn mhoxi posta, konn 
jevta tech boxent thukta, onit zata vo na, Kristi xallam xivai Devnagori 
lipint Konknni heram iskolamni kiteak xikoina, adi hea soglleam 
vixoyancher hanv Borges bab-a lagim ?DEBATE? korunk khoinchea vellar 
raji asam. Daddhos asa zalear Borges bab toyar za!

V. Ixtt hea potrar boroun hanvem tench sanglam. He soglle proxnn suttave 
korunk ?DEBATE? gorjechi. Somzotam Borges bab hi ?DEBATE? korunk raji 
zatolo mhunn.

Fottinchem zoit zaunk ami diunchena mhunnchem diunchena.

Tomazinho Cardozo
Candolim, Goy.



Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] DKA – when and why formed? - I

[Sebastian Borges]

 be
 chronologically displaced from their correct relative time-slots.
Here I am fretting over an apprehended gaffe by a budding researcher of the 
future. But, as stated above, this has already happened to one of our greatest 
researchers, right in front of our very own eyes. Was Gomes taken in so much by 
Cardozo's rhetoric? But that is not the only error in the book. On pg. 64, he 
refers to the now-defunct GOENCHO ULO as a colour illustrated Konkani monthly 
which was started in 2005 and folded up in 2007. Should this be true, and 
considering that it was launched in Nov. 2005, we should expect that at least 
15 issues of the paper were published (2 in 2005, 12 in 2006 and at least one 
in 2007). Actually not even half this number came out. And nobody connected 
with it ever claimed it to be a monthly, during the period of its existence. To 
begin with it was brought out as (and declared to be) a fortnightly [inaugural 
issue published about 20/11/2005, the second about 5/12/2005 and the third 
about 20/12/2005]. Then it came out
 occasionally with the fourth issue (dated Feb-Mar 2006) appearing in March 
2006. Even the reason given for folding up is ridiculous. The point to ponder 
here is: How could a researcher of Prof. Gomes' erudition and perspicacity 
commit such blunders with regard to events which occurred in his very presence 
and knowledge? Granted that, going by his own admission, much of the research 
for the book was done over the telephone does one need the help of this mode of 
communication to write about events which occurred in front of one's own eyes? 
I, for one, refuse to accept that a savant of Gomes' stature would commit such 
blunders in a book which eventually turned out to be his swan song. I think 
there is more here than meets the eye.
Let us not forget that quite some time elapsed between Prof. Gomes' untimely 
and sudden demise and the publication of the book. And the manuscript was 
handed over to the DKA at least six months before he went to his Heavenly 
abode. Although the publishers claim that they have not made any changes in the 
manuscript except for the addition of the Index, in the light of the above 
mentioned frailties, we are constrained to doubt this. The book must have 
undergone some editing at the hands of presumptuous know-alls like the present 
Secretary of DKA who is quite adept at this. For example, he edited, and got 
published, a book of essays written by his 'Umanv'. In one of the essays there 
is a sentence which in the original (as published earlier on the internet) was, 
… kazar zanvchea adim, tim dogaim ek-mekak koxim OLLKITALIM? This know-all 
changed the final word to VOLLKHOTALIM. And, mind you, this is from a person 
who has done his M.A. in Konkani and who
 lectures to editors and publishers of Konkani periodicals on how they should 
conduct their activities. So, that is where my needle of suspicion points.  
 
But the damage done is much greater. In its present form, the book is a serious 
blot on the reputation of Professor Gomes. If he could make such blunders with 
regard to facts that occurred within his personal knowledge, how can we place 
any credence on those facts mentioned in the book which were certainly not 
within his acquaintance and were (in all probability) obtained telephonically? 
And what about those facts which are found in his other books, especially those 
that are disputed by other scholars, not as eminent as he? Are we to question 
his fidelity to truth and ascertain the veracity of each one of those? 
Prior to the publication of the book, this Secretary boasted that it would make 
his opponents cry in pain. But now it looks like it is going to make him bawl 
like a baby. And, more than that, one must regretfully aver that someone has 
rendered a great disservice to the memory of a towering scholar. (to be 
continued)
Sotachench zoit zatolem.

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Venantius,
To my mind, 'Utor' would be equally correct. For dictionary we say 'xobdkox' 
and for vocabulary we say 'utravoll'. But why add 'ghodop'? I have heard this 
word 'ghoddop' (the O being open) used for rhyme. I do not get the import of 
'double rhyming' in the subject line. Doesn't rhyme mean two DIFFERENT words 
with similar ending? But here we have the same element being repeated. And we 
do have 'double rhyming' Konkani words in which the second part just rhymes 
with the first but does not mean anything on its own. Like pustokam-bistokam 
(books and the like). 
But one technical question: Does 'onomatopoiea' refer to only nouns which 
describe things with which then sound is associated? Or could it also be used 
for others like adverbs, adjectives and verbs. Also, does it have to be an 
imitation of a sound or would just any reduplicative qualify to be an 
onomatopoiea? Examples: Ghosghoso' is waterfall (a noun), 'ghoso ghoso 
vhanvta' (an adverb), 'virvirit = slender and 'zhogzhogit' = gaudy 
(adjectives), furfurta' = gets enthusiatic (a verb). Are 'onomatopoeia' and 
'reduplicative' synonymous?

Sebastian Borges   


On 3 Jun 2010 Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote:

True. I mentioned onomatopoeia while mentioning Vicente Correira Afonso (not 
sure ofs pelling).
Then from Anyway... I went to point out the double rhyming words post by *Dr. 
Manjeshwar Ganesha Kamath, *on the Save My Language site.
Two different topics, but a lead-in in the sense that I saw Dr. Kamat's
piece and also remembered VCA's two-sheet on Konakani Onomatopoeia. This is
how I remember things and make connections, even with disparate ideas.

Thanks for Onukoronn xobd' as also 'dunnavnni.'
Could it also be utor, or should it never be so. How about Onukoronn
xobd/utor ghodop.

Btw, years ago I put up a piece on Goanet, Konkani Onomatopoeia_errant
thoughts http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg19141.html

More on language later, including allusions, rhyming, etc, etc.

venantius j pinto

Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Besormay soddun diyat

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Hi mhoji chitt 5/6/2010 tarkhechea V.IXTTar uzvaddailea.

Romi Konknni boroinnaramni besormay soddun diunchi

Aplea Amche Konknni boroinnar ani kolakar hea lekhant (V.IXTT, 22/05/10) 
Tomazinho baban eka gombhir oxea sotacher bott dovorlam. Apli borpavoll chhapun 
haddunk jeo sovloti uplobdh asat tancho lav gheunk amche Romi Konknni boroinnar 
fattsar urtat. Tankam provrut't korunk monnbhor tel launchem poddtta. Punn hi 
besormay novi mat nhoi. Sabar vorsanchea kallant Goa Konknni Akademin (GKA) 
ekui Romi Konknni pustok uzvaddaunk na. Tedna, ailolim hatborpam GKA bhair 
marta mhunn arop zalo. Romi sahit'ya ani Nagri sahit'ya hanche khatir kitle 
duddu GKAn moddleat, oso prosn kelo. Romi ani Nagri sahityam khatir 50:50 
promannan khorch vanttun ghalcho mhunn suchovnni aili. Favo titlim hatborpam 
apnnak mell'lim zalear, apunn ho khorch 60:40 hea promannar legun korunk toyar 
asam mhunn tednachea GKA Odheokxan sanglem. Punn hatborpam ailinch nant. Uprant 
jim ailim tim boroinnaramni dhaddunk nant punn chollvolliamni (activist) 
ektthaim korun haddlolim. Chhappachem onudan
 legun, boroinnarachi te vixim orz haddun, chollvolliamnich aplea nanvar cheque 
kaddun vhelem. Aizui tich poristhiti vosta mhunn spoxtt dista. Punn Tomazinho 
babachea lekha vorvim ek mat zalam. GKA-cher je arop zal’le, tosle faleam 
konnui Dalgado Konknni Akademicher zaum Tiatr Akademicher korunk xokcho na. Ani 
hache vorvim zor boroinnaram modem zagrutay nirmann zaun poristhiti sudhorli, 
zalear tem dudant sakor mhonnchench poddttolem.
Anik ek besormay urta. Ek hatborop pustok rupant vachpeachea hatant poddtta 
mhonnsor taka sabar zonnancho hatbhar lagta. Zoxe type-setter, proof-reader, 
printer, publisher, distributor bi.  Him soglim kamam korunk konnuch fuddem 
sorona dekhun tim ektteakoch korchim poddttat. Velean Sekretarponnachem vojem! 
Bhuzam kitlim-i mozbut asum, hem cheponn  marekaroch. Tor heramni fuddem sorun, 
tem lhou korpachi goroz asa. Xivai him karyam funkott nhoi, tantunt il'lo 
poiso-i asa. Heai vixim zagrutay nirmann korche khatir anik ek khoddegantt lekh 
borounk Tomazinho babak mhoji nomr vinonti.  


Sebastian Borges 

Re: [Goanet] Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Venantius,
I think 'Onomatopoeia is not exactly the right English word for what you are 
describing. Onomatopoeia means vocal imitation of associated sound like the 
English hiss, buzz not necessarily involving reduplication (repetition of an 
element) which all your examples do. Some of your examples (as also in the 
article) are both reduplications and onomatopoeias; like 'kurkuri' since this 
is the sound that results when a crispy thing is chewed.
The article you have provided is really encyclopedic. Thanks for that.
The Konkani word for 'Onomatopoeia' is 'Onukoronn xobd' (lit. imitation word) 
and that for 'Reduplication' is 'dunnavnni' (lit. doubling-up).

On 2 Jun 2010 Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote:

Sometime back while in Goa, I had picked up a couple of sheet on
Konkani Onomatopoeia
(Anukaran Utor)by Vicente Correia Alphonso.
Anway, yesterday there appeared a lovely write up on 'double rhyming' words
on the Save my Language site.

Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani - A humorous
write-uphttp://konkani.savemylanguage.org/
One fine morning, my friend *Gulgulo* invited me for a coffee and panchadik
(chitchat). Gulgulo is his nick name, since he is fond of gulgule (earthen
pot) water. He pours *kiTikiTi* (boiling) water into the pot and allows it
to cool overnight. As I entered Gulgule?s home, a *ghamgham* aroma of
freshly prepared coffee welcomed me. Then a bowl full of *hunihuni* chakkuli
straight from the frying pan, arrived. *Ekek* (each one) tasted differently.
If first one was *nurnuri* (crispy), the second one was *kurkuri* (crunchy),
and the third one was *kaTkaTi* (hard nut) that I felt my teeth would break
off. I had *churchur* (worry) about tooth damage for a while. The last
chakkuli was *chivchivi* (soft) specially pulled out of the frying pan when
it is half fried.

Btw, anyone--please share if you happen to know of a better Konkani word,
some other word/s for Onomatopoeia.



venantius j pinto

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Khorench Kai Amkam Husko Konknnicho?

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Faustobab oxem boroita: Romi Konknni mollar soglem EKLOCH zannam mhonnttat 
toxem - nemavoll to zanna, itihas to zanna, tiatr koso ascho to zanna, trio 
kitem ani clown kitem to zanna... to zanna... to zanna! Herancho hacher vichear 
zaina. Ani fuddem vochun to oxem-i boroita: Eric Ozario bab hem xibir 
choloita. Konknni bhaxecho prochar to korit vota. Atam Konknnint nove sobd 
ghevpache tache proyotn chol'leat. To mhonntta 'class' hacho Konknnint orth 
vorg sakho zaina to sobd Konknnint 'KOK' zaunk zai. Hacher fuddle vichear 
korpak hanv Prof. S M Borges-acher soddttam. Tor hem mhojer kiteak soddop? 
Hanv konn mhunn? Konknnicho vidvan? Khoinchea adharar?
Ek motint dovorchem. Hanv mhojem MOT manddttam; tache fattle tork spoxtt kortam 
ani tea torkank adhar zalole, mhaka khore disleat te, 'facts' vachpeam fuddeant 
dovortam. Vachpeamni, hanv sangtam mhunn, mhoje 'facts' khore mhunn mandun 
gheunche, oxi mhoji opekxa nastach. Mhoje 'facts' ani tork topaslea uprant, te 
aplea monak pottle zalearuch, sarke disle zalearuch, mandun gheunche astat. 
Tech khatir hanv tinui ekech kodden ditam. Konnem-i vachpean mhoje 'facts' 
khoim chukleat, vo 'facts' sarke asunui mhojea torkant khoim unneponn dista tem 
dakhoilear mhaka borem dista, mhojem mot sudharunk tacho adhar zata. Punn kaim 
zonn vixoy soddun bholtech votten hol'lo kortat; hem zalear mhaka avddona.
Itlem sangun, 'KOK' ho xobd polloum-ia. Hanvem ho xobd kednanch aikunk / 
polleunk na. Mungllurant ghoddie vaprant asa zait. Punn hanv thoim kednanch 
pavonk na. Hanvem Fr. Maffei ani Msgr. Menezes hanche xobdkox pollele; thoim 
hem utor mellona. Mhunnttoch hea xobda vixim choddavot mahiti Faustbaban Eric 
Ozario baba laginch ghetlear borem zatolem. 'Class' hea Inglez utrak zaite orth 
asat: economic / social status, rank, quality, body of students / persons, set 
/ category of things etc. Tor KOK hem khoinchea orthan vaporpachem? Ani 
khoinchea orthamni vaporchem nhoi? Novo xobd mell'llo mhunn zaina; tachi 
veakoronni vagnnuk (grammatical behaviour) zanna zavop titlench mhotvachem. 
'KOK' hem ek 'noun' aslolean, tacho 'gender' ani 'declension' zanna zaunk zai, 
mhonnje, kokachem / kokechem / kokichem / kokuchem bi. Eka xobdavelean anik 
xobd toyar zavpachi chal Inglezi porinch Konknnintui asa. Tor 'class' = kok 
oxem dhorlem zalear 'classification' = kokxastr hem-i
 choltolem kai? Osli mahiti
 Ericbab zaum J B Moraes bab, J B Sequeira bab oslea zannkaram koddlean 
koddlean mellum-iet. Faustbabacho tanche kodde sompork aslolean ghoddie hem 
korunk takach sompem zait.

Sebastian Borges  


On 29 May 2010 13 Fausto Da Costa fau...@vsnl.net wrote:

 Ho ek obheas asa, ani te te pormonnem pavlam marchi goroz asta. Punn oxem 
zalolem dison yena. Amchem soglem korunk zai mhunn korpachem asta. Punn 
akhkhrek tacho foll kitem? Porjechea duddvancho idvas. Romi Konknni mollar 
soglem EKLOCH zannam mhonnttat toxem - nemavoll to zanna, itihas to zanna, 
tiatr koso ascho to zanna, trio kitem ani clown kitem to zanna... to zanna... 
to zanna! Herancho hacher vichear zaina. Vichear zata zalear to ordhearuch 
thamboun 'Hoiba' mhonpapchi gozal.
Punn Kan'add Konknni mollar soglem odik vevosthit zata, dekhun tea mollar 
Konknnichi odik progoti zal'li dixtti poddtta. Kaluch hanv Mandd Sobhann-an 
ghoddun haddlolea eka daiz xibarak hajir zalom. Eric Ozario bab hem xibir 
choloita. Konknni bhaxecho prochar to korit vota. Atam Konknnint nove sobd 
ghevpache tache proyotn chol'leat. To mhonntta 'class' hacho Konknnint orth 
vorg sakho zaina to sobd Konknnint 'KOK' zaunk zai. Hacher fuddle vichear 
korpak hanv Prof. S M Borges-acher soddttam. Osle anikui khub xobd asat. Ami 
'xir ghuspolea' mhonnttat thoim te 'xir dhuspottlea' mhonnttat. Uril'lem anik 
kednai boroin.
Konknni mollar khub korchem asa. Punn konn kortolo? ho mat vhoddlo prosn. 
Akhkrek amkam khorench husko kai Konknnicho vo...?
Fausto

Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Romi Konknni ani Mhoxicho Mog

[Sebastian Borges]

 lok virodh 
kortat mhonnunuch tacho dhondo
 itlim vorsam boro
 chol'la.  Na zalear Goykar aplea paim-yar kuradd marun kedna meklle zavpache 
ani tachea dhondeak orthuch naspacho.

Tachea motan apnnak virodh korpi lok Konknnint (Romi lipint) potram ani 
nemallim porgott kortat, jahirati gheun zaito duddu komaitat. Zalear, Romi 
Konknnint jim nemallim uzvadda yetat tancher nodor marat; tantunt ailolea 
sorkari jahiratincho hixob korat. Eka ankant tumkam ek thoim don sorkari 
jahirati mellttoleo; kednam-i ek legit dixtti poddona. Magir tachem 
dumhoinallem topasat. Kitleo sorkari jahirati? Atam tumich sangat. Ek jahirat 
melloita to duddu komaita ani Romi Konknnint boroun zogta, zalear zaka ekach 
ankant 7 (hoi SAT) RONGIT 'COVERPAGE' ani oglleo her 'black-and-white' 
full-page sorkari jahirati mellttat to kitem upaxim morta mhonnpachem?

Punn haka dhondeachi kollaxi bori umzolea. Apunn khottleamni jem oddtta 
tatuntli chirimiri to heranchea-i tallttar dovorta. Mellavo kelo zalear hajir 
zaloleank, magonastana, provas khorch mhonnun protiekak xembhor rupia mellttat; 
fuddlea mellaveank hajir ravonk lok magir furfurtat. Sommelonak hajir zaunk 
funkott bosi astat; he lok magir thoim bondist urtat; mhonnje bhorpur hajeri! 
Magir tankam oxem sangop zata: Polleyat, he poixe adim Devnagorivaleankoch 
mellttale; atam ami khottpott korun tumche khatirui melloun ghetleat. Amkam 
tenko diit ravat, anik khub mellttolem. Ani lok mhonntta, Hoi mure! Kapaz 
am! Khorem pollelear Devnagorivaleank oslem kainch mellona; te aple gantthiche 
moddun mellaveank ani sommelonank hajir ravtat. Punn hem nattok tachea dhondeak 
faidexir tharta. He chollvolli vorvim fattlea panch vorsanchea kallant hea 
dhondekaran kitlem zoddun kaddlam tachi vaspux korat; tache fattlean dusro 
numbor konnacho yeta to zannun gheyat ani
 tanchea dogaim modle yennavollichi ontor polleyat. Tedna soglem tumkam sarkem 
somzotolem.

Nimannem tannem Romi Konknni nemallim cholovpeank dukram-pospeam kodden sor 
keleat. Dukor vhodd ani gulgulit zalem mhunnttoch taka masak viktat ani zaite 
duddu komaitat. Punn konnem ek Romi Konknni nemallem borem gulgulit zatokoch 
dusreak viklam tachem nanv mat tannem diunk na; tem diunchem mhunn amchi 
vinonti. Tannench jem viktem (kai funkott) ghetlam tem legun kaim vorsam bond 
poddlolem.

Aiz Goykar dukram pospache vattek vochonant. Dukrank aplem ruchichem khann 
mellttalem te zage aiz uronk nant. Dukorkaran disak tin pavtti pez korun 
khavounchi poddtta. Dukor vanchun urlem zalear legun pejeche poixe vosul 
zatlech mhunn sangunk zaina. Punn xidduk Goykar aiz mhoxi postat; tatunt khub 
faido asa. Mhojea xezareachench udharonn gheyat. Taka ami Sopretomaz mhonnttat. 
[Amche Saxtti bhaxent hacho orth 'dhakttulo Tomaz'. Tachea podornichem ghor 
xezarakoch aslem; haka ami, amche idadi pormannem Tomaz, Tomazba, Tomaztiva, 
Tomazpai oxea sabar nanvamni hoddkitale.] Tor Sarpanchachea ut'tejonan ani 
sorkarache 'subsidy' khustar Sopretomazan ek mhox vikti ghetli. Tika ek 
domddechi khavodd haddun ghalunk na; sodanch lokachim xetam, bhattam, aframent 
khavpak soddun ghatli. Sokall ani sanjevellar neman dud kaddunk mat ghara 
haddchi. To mhonntta apunn mhoxik posta ani apnnak mhoxicho khub mog. Punn 
lokak khobor asa konn konnak posta ani tacho 'mog'
 kiteakhatir tem-i. Mhoxik tannem nanv ghatlam MANGOLA (Movement for Amendment 
or Nullification of Goa's Official Language Act hachem acronym).  Tor acronym 
kiteak?  Tachea zomeacho to ek ttaimpas.  Tannim toslim zaitim acronym-am toyar 
keleant: RLAF, RLC, RLA, KLE bi. Punn Inglez xem? Tachem zalem oxem. Aplea 
putachem eddmixon korunk gel'lo tedna heddmasttorin taka sanglem khoim, Zann 
mure Sopretomaz, iskolacho middiam’ ani bhurgeachi madarttang ekich zaunk 
zai.”  Zalem.  Tea disak laun, Sopretomaz ani ghorchim ghorant legun Konklix 
ulounk laglim.  To ek boreantlo boro khellam-mestri; Intruzak to ganvchea 
bhurgeank khella-paddtti xikoita ani tankam gheun sabar ganvamni bhonvta.  Atam 
to aplea cheddeache madarttangentuch khell xikoita.  Ani khellam-pongddachem 
nanv legun tannem Inglez kelam: Black Lovers of Nagdolim.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] Debate Soddun Konn Pollen Ghelo?

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Tomazinho babak 'black-and-white' purave zai khoim. Tor 'emblem' ho 
'black-and-white puravo nhoi? To rongit-ui asa khoro, punn hanvem zo V.IXTTak 
dhaddlolo to tori 'black-and-white' mu? Tomazinho babache GT disallear chhapun 
ailole lekh 'black-and-white' nhoi? Ani te zor Tomazinho babachech asat tedna 
tanche poros khoddegantt purave kosle asunk xoktat? Tachoch internettar ailolo 
2004ntlo lekh 'black-and-white' nhoi? Fr Pratap Naik hannim internettar 
uzvaddailolo lekh 'black-and white' nhoi? Ani he sogle hanvem hanga dileat kai 
na? Porthun dium?

'Emblem'-acher 1989 hem voros koxem ailem tem apnnem spoxtt sanglam mhunn 
tannem davo kela. Spoxtt mhonnche kitem? Oxem ghoddlam zait he torechem nib 
mhollear spoxtt sangop? Ani hem tednachea Sekretarin sangop? Atancho Sekretar 
Hoiba, hoiba korta tedna tannench hacher uzvadd ghalunk kiteak fuddem sorchem 
nhoi? Vachpeank sot kitem tem koll'llear tachea matheavoilem mollob kosllon 
kaim poddchem na mu?

Fr Freddychi soy asloleo minutes ek 'forgery' mhonnpak karonn aslem. Jedna 
Tomazinho babuch DKA 1989 vorsa sthapon zal'li mhonntta tedna 1988 vorsa tech 
sonsthechi boska koxi zaunk xokta? Naslole sonsthecheo minutes mhonnje 
'forjery'ch tharta nhoi? Tannem zor ti sonstha 1988nt vo tea adim sthapon 
zal'li mhunn sanglem zalearuch teo 'minutes' ghoddie khoreo zait mhonnpak 
zago urta. Punn hem mhonnpak Tomazinho bab azun toyar na so dista. Asa zalear 
soroll sangun uddounk mhoji vinonti.

Times of India-cher zo lekh ailo to konnakui patthounk apnnak sothea asa mhunn 
tannench tor sanglolem nhoi? Tor internettar zo lekh ailo to, anik konnem-i 
thoim dhaddlolo zalear legun, ti Tomazinho babakoddchean ailolea lekhachich 
prot mhunn man'lear kitem chukta? Onek thollancher to lekh uzvadda ailo. 
Tomazinho babache nodrek to poddla astoloch. Punn ek kodden legun tannem 
khulaso korunk na. Kai, apnnem dhaddlolo khulaso ekai thollan choddounk na 
mhunn to sangunk sodina mu? Toxem zalear sangun uddounk mhoji vinonti.

Aplea pattlavdarachi ji khobor to korta ti oxi: Tacheach lekhancher, heach 
thollar, hanvem prosn kele zalear tachi zap na, apleach lekhachem somorthon 
korunk to xokona. Dekhun hanvem okkol ghannak dovorlea oxem mhonnlem. Anik 
konnem vachpean aplem mot manddlem zalear Khorem tujem, bab oxe torecheo 
kollovnneo hanga dhaddleo; tem mot kiteak khorem tacher mat ek utor borounk na. 
Hech khatir hanvem taka Hoiba mhonnlo. Mhojem chuklem? Ani Tomazinhobab apnnak 
tenko divpi borop jem tannem kel'lem mhonntta tem (heach thollar) oxem aslem: 
Sod'deak Borges-bab apnnench manddlolea zallant sampoddleat, ani tantuntlean 
bhair sorpachi poll vatt polletat, punn tankam ti sampddon sampddona ani 
sampoddpachi-i na. Hantuntlean Borges-babak dekh kitem? Itlich: Fuddarak 
tannim, how many devils can dance on the head of a pin oxe torechea orthacheo 
'scrupulous' gozali borounche poilim sat nhoi, sot'tor pavtti sat chintchem. 
Ho koslo tenko? Cheorchent koslo tori
 mud'do manddla? Kai rajkarnni zomatint Zindabad, Murdabad, fiv, fiv? Ani hem 
tachem sonvoyechench. GT disallear legun oslech torechem potr dhaddlolem. Haka 
anik kosli zap favo asli? Yevzun polleyat.

Hoiba vegllea toranche-i astat. Ek asa zo apunn Romi Konknnicho mogi, 
'promotor' bi mhunn bodday marta. Punn taka te bhaxent ani lipint don utram 
borounk yena! Eka Romi Konknni lekhak Hoiba korunk legun taka Excellent 
response, Mr. To-n-zo mhonnchem poddtta.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

    


On 29 May, 2010 tomazinho cardozo tomazinho@gmail.com wrote:

27 May, 2010 hea disa Goa Nett hacher ailole Fausto babache vichar 
vachle. Khoreponnim Romi lipintle Konknni bhaxe vixim amcho Borges bab 
ani Fausto bab hanchim dogainchim motam ekuch. Tea khatir Fausto bab-ak 
anik zabab diupachi gorozuch na oxem mhaka diso. Punn Fausto ?black  
white? puraveanchi gozal korta. Tea khatir tea vixim don utram 
borounchinch poddlim.

Fausto bab zanna zaunk zai ki ek puravo khorench ?black  white? asa 
zalear taka konnancheanuch nakarunk zaina nhoi mhunn konnacheanuch taka 
fottkiro tharaunk zaina mhunn. Atam amcho Fausto bab ?black  white? 
purave mhunntta te khorench ?black  white? asa kai? Hoch motto proxn 
asa tacher ilo niyall korum-ia

1. Borges bab-an boroilem ?Tomazinho baban sabar pavtti mhonnlolem asa 
ki Okhil Bharotiy Konknni Porixodek Romi lipint borovpi vochonant, 
dekhun thoim ghetil?le tharav sogl? Konknni porjeche mhunn manun gheunk 
to toyar na.? Oi tem hanvem mhunttlam ani ataim mhunttam. Borges bab-an 
  tea fuddem boroilem, ? Zalear to atam hea apnnalea sommelonanchi 
khobor korta tedna thoinche tharav sogl? Romi lipint Konknni vachpi 
porjeche mhunn tori manun ghevpache?? Hanvem toxem mandhun ghevpachem 
mhunn borounkuch na. Boroilam zalear hea viximche ?black  white? purave 
khoim pavle kai?

2. Sorgest Fr. Freddy hanchi soi marun hanvem ?forgery? kela mhunn 
Borges bab-an mhojer bogllant ghatlem. Sorgest Fr. Freddy-chi soi hanvem 
?forgery? kelea mhunn

Re: [Goanet] GT 'DEBATE' KONN SODDUN POLLON GHELO? HANV VO BORGES BAB?

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,

Debate svikarun kel'li mhoji zap GT disallear 10 July 2009 tarkher asa 
oxem hanvem Tomazinhobabak kolloilem, zalear to vicharta: Hich zap 
Borges baban adim kiteak dili na kai? Ghuspagonddholl korche khatir? 
Hi zap atam divpak sabar karonnan asum-ietat: (1) Hanvem ti ek 
'trumpcard' mhunn rakhun dovorli; toxem kelem zalear kitem chukta? Mhozo 
khoincho puravo kedna manddcho tem tharavpacho hokk mhaka asa mu? Punn 
toxem zaunk na mat. (2) Mhojeo kaim chitti GTn uzvaddaunk nant; hanv 
somzolom hi-i tantlich ek asot mhunn. Te bhair Tomazinhobab GT potracher 
sumanachea sumanak 'column' boroita; tor tache nodrentlean ti chitt koxi 
chukunk xokta? He khatir vaspus-oi korunk na. Punn jen'na hanvem 
pollelem ki mhojeach 'reminders'ant mhojem 'offer' uzvaddak ailear omke 
dis zaleat oxem hanvem vachlem, tedna 'tube-light' pettli ani hanv 
'Central Library-nt gelom. Central Library-nt vochop Tomazinho babak 
sompem, karonn tachi kocheri Ponnjent asa; punn mhaka unninch 4 voram 
provasak khorchunchim poddttat. (3) Tomazinho baban jedna mhaka omkech 
khoinche tarkher mhoji zap ailoli tem sang mhunn forsar kelo tednanch 
hanvem ti tarikh taka dili. Punn sot usram bhair ailear ghuspagondoll 
kiteak zata? Sot kedna-i voir ailem mhunn eka promannik mon'xak kosloch 
forok poddona. Punn fottingachem vegllem. Virodhea kodde khoinche purave 
asat tem adinch koll'llear, apli 'debating skill' vaprun koxi kux 
martolom hachi 'planning' korunk sompem zata ani avchit anik ek puravo 
bhair sorlear to ghuspota, gondllota, tachi fojet zata. Tomazinho 
babachi toxi zaina zalear puro. Punn Goanet hachevele purave puro nasle 
kai? To tedna Goanet vachinaslo? Toxem zal'lem aslear legun tachea 
amigamni taka sanglam astolench mu? Tache pattlavdar tori tenko diun 
chitti boroitale. Tantlea kaim zonnam kodde hanvem vinonti kel'li 
Tomazinho babak ti 'debate' ghoddun haddpant mozot korat mhunn. Tannim 
Tomazinho babak sangonk na kai? Ani sanglolem zalear, torui gopp ravlo?


“GKA was established in 1988” ani “GKA was established in 1989” oxim 
vidhanam hanvem khoim ani kednam keleant? Tomazinhobab kedna kedna 
apunnuch ghuspota. Dekhun to sarkench kitem sangunk sodta tem kollona. 
Hanga to kitem sangunk sodta kai? (a) Hanvem hanche modlo ekui 
'statement' kednanch khoinch korunk na, (b) Hanvem hatuntlo (omkoch) ek 
kela, punn dusro korunk na, (c) Hanvem he donui 'statement' keleat 
khore, punn donui ekach borobor korunk nant. To hantlem khoinchem 
mhonnunk sodta tem spoxtt sanglear mhaka sompem poddttolem; hanv magir 
to negar veta to 'statement' vo donui 'statement' kedna ani khoim khoim 
keleat tachi govay diunk toyar asam. Tor hem spoxtt korunk tache kodde 
mhoji nomr vinonti.


Fuddem vochun to mhojem ek vak'ya vegllem kaddtta ani tache uprant ji 
'inference' asa ti lottki mhunn bhasounk sodta. Punn ti 'inference' tea 
soglea paragraph-acher adharloli asa, ekach vakyacher nhoi mhunn konnui 
iskolacho bhurgo legun sangtolo. Taka tem somzunk na zalear porthun 
sangtam. DKA zolmant yeunche adlea rattavollimni vanttekar, zolmant 
ailea uprant 16 vorsam Sekretar ani ek voros (hanga, Dezembr 2004 meren, 
sov mhoine mhonnlearui upkarta) Convener aslolo tea karnnan hanvem taka 
avoi-kodde komparar kela. 'Emblem'-achi mahiti taka asunkuch zai 
mhonnpak itlo puravo puro poddona? 2010 porian Sekretar kiteak asunk 
zai? Kai 2005-2010 hea kallant to 'emblem' toyar zal'lo mhunn to sangunk 
sodina mu? Spoxtt korunk vinonti.


Hanvem heranchim nanvam gheunk nant mhonnje tancher onit koxi mhunn 
zata? Apnnem magun ghetlolem lochandd to tancher lottunk sodta kai? Fr. 
Freddy aiz amche modem na, ani to tor survechea ekach vorsak (tem-i 
Tomazinho baban DKA-chi sthapnnuk 2008 vorsa zal'li mhunn mandun ghetlem 
zalearuch) Odheokx aslo ani magir 2004 vorsa, fokot 5 disam khatir, 
Convener. Fr Pratap DKAcho poilo vangddi khoro, punn tannem khoinchench 
pod, aiz meren, sambhallunk na. Prabhakarbab Tendulkar tor Tizrer aslo; 
'emblem' toyar korun ghevop Tizrerachem kam'? Urlo to Sekretar/Convener 
Tomazinho bab, ani toch hatakodde asa nhoi? Tor zap diunk tannem fattim 
fuddem kiteak zaunchem? Sodheache zallvonndar tor halinch vangddi 
zaleat; tankam koxi khobor astoli? Ani hem mhaka atanchea Odheokxanuch 
sanglam! Ani hakach to mhonntta mhojem nennarponn. Zalear zannarponn 
kitem tem sangunk mhoji vinonti.


Prot’tek sonsthek ap-aplo itihas asa mhunn Borges bab-an zanna zaupak 
zai.  Ho itihas ‘record’ korun dovorlolo asta. Konnakuch tachi mahiti 
zai zalear je lok te sonstheche chalu kallache zallvonddar asa tanche 
lagim ghevpachi pod’dot akho sonvsar bhor chalu asa. oxem to mhonntta. 
Zalear Dalgado Konknni Akademi was established in 1988 ani Dalgado 
Konkani Akademi was established in 1989 in order to fight the injustice 
meted out to Konkani in Roman script oxe 'statement' kortana tannem 
khoinchea zallvonndaram koddlean mahiti ektthailoli, hem sangun upkar 
korcho.



Sotachench zoit zatolem.

Mog asum.

Sebastian Borges



--- On Sat, 29/5

[Goanet] Konkani in Devnagiri will kill konkani (To put on Goanet mailing list)

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Francisco Floriano Fernandes bab prosn vicharpant boroch fixal asa dista. 
Tannem mhaka ek lamb prosnavoll dhaddlea. Mhoji taka vinonti: poilim te prosn 
tukach kor ani tujeo zapo amkam dhaddun di. Xivai, anikui prosn asat tancheo 
zapo sodun kadd:
1. Konknni rajbhas chollvolli vellar tuzo koslo tori hatbhar laglolo? Tuvem 
kitem kitem kel'lem?
2. Romi lipint boroiloli Konknni bhas fulchi ani follchi mhunn tuvem kitem tori 
kelam? Ani atam tum kitem tori korta?
3. Hanvem Romi lipint boroilole Konknni bhaxe add kitem boroilam tacheo ek don 
dekhi tujean diunk zait? Zalear teo diuncheo mhunn mhoji tuje kodden vinonti. 
Mhaka tujea dekhincho adav zaum-ieta.
4. Rajbhas andolona vellar tum bhurgo aslo kai dista. Tedna xikxonnant Konknni 
bhas asli. Zalear, iskolant zaum kolejint, tum Konknni bhas xikla? Hoi zalear, 
khoinche lipintlean? Na zalear, kiteak xikunk na?
5. 1962 savn Igorjen choloilolea iskolamni Konknni xikoit aileat; ti fokot 
Devanagari lipintlean mhunn tuka khobor asa? Tedna tuzo avoi-bapui zaum azo-aji 
kitem kortalim? Tannim, kedna tori, Igorjechea vhoddilank Romintlean Konknni 
xikounchi mhunn suchovnni kel'li? Oxe toren Devnagrintlean Konknni xikun bhurge 
fuddem gele ani M.A. panvddear porian Konknni xikunk pavle; tanche modem 
choddant chodd Katolk bhurge asle. Rajbhas kaido pas zal'lo teach vorsa (1987) 
poilo M.A. Konknni 'batch' pas zal'lo mhunn tum zanna?
5. Rajbhas mhonnje kitem tem tuka khobor asa? Rajkarbharant mhonnje Rajyachea 
'administration'-ant vaportat ti rajbhas; tiatrant, bazarant ani xikxonnant 
legun ek bhas vaprunk ti rajbhas aspachi goroz na. Sorkarakodden potrvevhar 
korunk rajbhaxecho vapor zata. Zalear, kitlea zonnank Romintlean Konknni nitt 
borounk yeta? (Khoxechi gozal mhonnlear tujem Konknni borop heram poros khub 
borem asa. Porbim!) Tiatr boroinnarank 'professional' Romi Konknni borovpi 
mhonnlear otitay zaunchi na, kiteak te aplea potta khatir Konknni boroitat. 
Zalear tanchem borop kitlem borem asa? Don dekhi ditam:
(a) Goa Konkani Akademi (GKA)-che eke yevzonne-khal uzvaddaunk ek tiatr ailolo 
khoim. Tatunt khubuch 'grammatical' ani 'spelling' chuki aslolean tem hatborop 
sudharche khatir borovpeak porot kelem. Borovpi challvolo ani Poilea Romi 
Konknni Sommelonache machier ravon tannem 'grammar' sarkem na mhunn aplo tiatr 
GKA-n 'reject' kelo mhunn sanglem. Mhojea fuddeantle bosker ek nam'necho kovi 
bosun aslo. Tannem mhonnlem, Tiatrak ani veakoronn lagta? Tea 
cheorchea-sotracho (seminar) yezman mhunn Romi Konknnicho 'pai' aslo. Punn 
tannem hacher aplem kainch mot diunk na.
(b) Dusri dekh: Thoddeach mhoineam uprant, osoch ek tiatr chhapun ailo. Tem 
pustok gheun ek dis toch 'pai' GKA-che kocherent ailo ani tem kaddun 
Odheokxachea mezar marun aroddlo, Hi Konknni? Tea pustokar tannem sabar 
utranchea pondak penan bore oddlole. Atam hem pustok chhapun haddpachem soglem 
kam' borovpeanuch kel'lem. GKA-n fokot onudan divpachem. Tatunt chuki urleo 
zalear GKAn kitem korchem? Onudanache poixe addaun dovorpache? Toxem kel'lem 
zalear toch 'pai' Romi Konknni pustokank bhasailole poixe addaun dovortat 
mhunn hueli marpacho. Mhonnje khoinchei votten aploch faido. Dukor marunkui 
vhelear roddtta ani posunkui oxem mhonnttat nhoi? 
Zori tor professional borovpeank Konknni sarki borounk zomona, zalear her aam 
admi Goykaranchem kitem? Sorkari Odhikareank somzot osle Konknnint te aple orz 
borounk xokot kai? Na zalear Romi Konknni rajbhas zaun faido kitem? Tench 
kiteak? Amcheo Ponchayoti asat. Tankam Romi Konknnintlean konnem tori potr 
dilam? Ani nikal kitem aila? Hanvem toxem kelam. Mhojea orzacher favo toxi 
karvay legun zalea. Punn zobab mat Inglezintlean!
Hacherui tujem lokx ghalun vistaran boroilear adav zaum-ieta.

Sotachench xoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges


On 26 May 2010 Francisco Floriano Fernandes franciscofloria...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

Sebastian Borges ho?dadleak vo bailek sarko volkonn nokllom pun tori astana jem 
to kitem konknni lvoir boroita tem zaitem vachlam ani obheos kela, tea 
uprantuch hanv hea mojea mudhear pavlam ani oxem borounk fudem sorlam.Ani hacho 
makam toddo tori zobab tea dadlea/baile kodchean mevtolo mhun 
patietanv.Toddeach khalla boroilea prosnak zobab ditolo mhun assa dortanv.

Bab vo bai tum itlem konknni voir boroita tem koslea hokhan boroita tem hanv 
kaim noklom tori astana tum konknni raj bhas korunk zai tedna khuim aslo/aslem?

Zori konknnicho tuka itlo mog aslo zalear jea vellar ami tornatte koxe godtta 
te porim fudem sorle ani amchea konknnichea fuddareank tore torecho toddo 
tori?adhar dilo, zalear tujem anven kuimchoruch?kednach aikonk na, tea vellar 
tum koslea tujea dhonddean bi guspololo ani konknnichea vavrak ath paim?galunk 
fatim urlo?

Sobondh Goy ani chodd korun Saxttint itli uchabollai zaloli tea 1980 suru 
zalolea vorsanim, 1986/1987 hea vorsanim,?zalear tum appsuvarti koso 
konknnichea zuzant eksuro lipun asloi kitem? Naslo tor khuim aslo?

Goychi Raj bhas konknni koirunk zaitea kattolk

[Goanet] GT DEBATE SODDUN KONN POLLON GHELO? HANV VO BORGES BAB?

[Sebastian Borges]

Ixttamno,
Tomazinho bab porthun ghuspoche adinch tachem gorjechem kitem zai tem 
poilinch diun uddoitam. Mhoji zap GT disallear 10 July 2009 tarkher asa. Adim 
vachunk na zalear atam tori sodun vachchi. Tem korunk avghodd lagta zalear 
hanga Goanet-ar ailoli ti tachi kopi vachlear zata:

http://lists.goanet.org/htdig.cgi/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/179833.html

Tatunt hanvem oxem mhonnlolem: It is for this reason that I refuse to waste 
my time on a tamasha called 'debate'.  However, since he insists, I shall come 
and face him.  Let him make the arrangements.  I only hope he will make 
sensible statements, befitting a teacher and not wild accusations expected of a 
politician. Tea adim uzvaddailole eke chittint hanvem oxeim mhonnlolem: My 
writings are available in BLACK AND WHITE (in Konkani and English) on print 
media and on the internet.   So, when the debate does occur, I shall expect 
Cardozo to quote me VERBATIM from those sources, and not from his own frayed 
memory.  I shall expect him to use these to show where I have used lies and 
manipulations, and what I have done to destroy Konkani in Roman script.   I 
shall demand hard VERIFIABLE facts, nothing less; certainly not MANUFACTURED 
facts like Dalgado Konkani Akademi was formed in 1989 to fight against 
injustice to Konkani in Roman script.
  Hich
 chitt internet-ar dhaddttana hanvem hem zoddlolem: Having witnessed his 
shenanigans over the years, I wonder whether he will actually come to 
debate.   And, if he does, whether he will truthfully answer any questions that 
will be posed to him. Hache uprant hanvem sabar reminders dhaddle punn te GTn 
uzvaddaunk nant. Te hanvem Goanet-ar dhaddlole; ani tantle thoddech mhoje 
fattle zapent vistaran dakhoileat.  

Atam anik ek ximreponn. Tannem GKA 1988 vorsa sthapli mhunn nandun gheunk na 
khoim? Zalear 1988-ntlem minutes khoinchean ailem? Kai DKA 1988-che ADIM 
sthaploli mhunn to sangunk sodta kai? Zalear sang muga! GKA sarkich khoinchea 
vorsant sthapon zal'li? Punn Tomazinho baban ek ugddas ghott motint dovorcho: 
GKA was established in 1988 ani GKA was established in 1989 him donui 
vidhanam ekach borobor khorim asunk xokoch nant; khoinchem tori ek khorem ani 
dusrem fott. Donui fott mat asunk xoktat. Him donui vidhanam tachinch aslolean, 
to kiteim kelear fotting tharta, hatunt kosloch dubhav asunk xokona. Anik ek 
visorchem nhoi: oslim chikanam rajkarnnant choltat zait, hanga tim cholchim 
nant!

Eka bhurgeachim avoi-bapui konn? Ji taka aplea kusveant dhorun koxtt gheta, 
taka zolmant haddtta, bhurgeponnant tacho  sambhall korta tikach avoi mhonnttat 
mu? Hanvem likhit govay manddlea tache pormannem, DKA zolmant yeunche adim ek 
voros voir ji khottpott chol'li tatunt Tomazinho Cardozo vanttekar aslo. 
Sthapli tedna ticho poilo Sekretar Tomazinho Cardozo aslo. Constitution toyar 
keke uprant ji Somiti ghoddoili tichoi Sekretar Tomazinho Cardozo aslo. Te 
uprant sumar 15 vorsam dusro konnuch Sekretar zaunk na. 12 May 2004 hea disa ji 
Somiti ghoddoili tatuntui Sekretar Tomazinho Cardozo aslo. Jun 2004nt ji Somiti 
ghoddoili ticho Convener Tomazinho Cardozo. DKAcho emblem poilech pavtt mhoje 
nodrek poddlo to 2004nt. Hacho ortuch oso ki Tomazinho Cardozo haka DKAchi avoi 
mandpant koslich addkholl aschi na. Ani hi avoiponnachi zababdari pallttanach 
zo emblem ghoddoilo tache vixim Tomazinho Cardozo hache poros chodd mahiti 
konnak asunk xokta? Punn ghoddie to
 'guardians' mhonnje aichea zallvonndaranchi khobor korta zait. GKAn 1988 
vorsant uzvaddailolem pustok dakhoun hanvem to prosn atanchea Odheokxak kel'lo. 
Zabab mell'llo: Mhaka khobor na; ten'na hanv vangddi naslom. Tor khoinchea 
avoi-bapai lagim vicharum?

Anik sujar zaunche poilim, Tomazinho bab atanch tondd gheun gel'lo boro!

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges


On 26 May 2010 tomazinho cardozo tomazinho@gmail.com wrote:

Borges babacho 22 May, 2010 hea disa ailolo zabab vachlo. Tea zabab-an 
amchea Borges bab-an akhem Ramayan sanglem punn gorjechem kitem zai 
tacher mat visor ghatli. Hanvem borges baba lagim sadho ani soroll zabab 
vincharlolo. To oso asa, ?Tannem tor mhoji DEBATE korpachem avhan 
svikarun DEBATE korunk apunn raji asam mhunnon zabab dila zalear to 
tacho zabab khoinche tarkechea GT potrar aila to mhaka matxem Borges 
bab-an sangchem?.

Hacher tannem zabuch keli na mhunnchem tannem apunn DEBATE-k raji asa 
mhunn sanglem na. Hacho orth kitem zalo? ?DEBATE? soddun poll kaddop 
nhoi zalear anik kitem?

GT potran aplo zabab porgott kelo na mhunnonk Borges bab sodhta oxem 
mhaka dista. GT potran tor zabab porgott kelo na zalear mhaka svotha 
kiteak kolloilem na? Hanvem taka mhojo Phone No. poriant dilolo ani to 
mhojem ?postal address?-ui zannam hantun dubav na. ?DEBATE? korpak 
daddhos na zatoch poll kaddpache osle upai sodhun kaddche poddttach.

Borges bab ataim ti ?DEBATE?  soddun polllon vochpachi toyari korta. 22 
May tarkechea zababan to akhrek mhunntta, ? Aiz te 'debate'-ik orth 
urunk na karonn

[Goanet] Konkani in Devnagiri script will kill Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
An error cropped up in my last post. The year that Monsignor Dalgado undertook 
the trip to Portugal is 1895 and not 1985 as I happened to type inadvertently. 
Mea culpa, Sorry for the inconvenience.
Sebastian Borges.

On 27 May 2010 00:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote:
 The award money must have been substantial, for he undertook a trip to 
Portugal in 1985!
  
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Fw: ' Paldadacho Munis' - Review by Derek Almeida -GT- May 25 Pg12.

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear Floriano,
Please note that I am not a salesman!

I have only stated the facts as I perceive them. Whether they are one-sided or 
many-sided is for the reader to judge.

I do not think the godfather of Romi Konkani and grandfather of tiatr will take 
kindly your running down this cultural form in addition to not patronizing it, 
for it is the mainstay of Romi Konkani sommelons; it pulls in the crowds for 
some part of the duration. The politicians too know its value; hence, come 
election time, they hire tiatrists to extoll their virtues and work in song.

I do not see how a title can evoke any pride in anyone. And how can you fault 
someone for not evoking such pride in you?

Standardization can happen only with the cooperation of writers. But this is 
not fortcoming. And the absence of an enforcing authority makes the task 
infinitely worse. I am doing my bit but have not met with any success. I ran a 
series of 20 articles in GULAB; but, sad to say, even the regular writers in 
the same magazine did not make an iota of change in their orthography. In spite 
of an open invitation, no one bothered to tell me where I am going wrong, 
assuming this was the reason. If at all you see some sort of standardization in 
Romi Konkani magazines, it is because of the strenuous work put in by a handful 
of proof-readers. The authors are least bothered. No English magazine will 
condescend to publish an article with badly-flawed orthography. If a Konkani 
magazine were to follow this policy, it would fold up in next to no time.

With the help of an unimpeachable example, I have already provided an argument 
which could, in a way, be used to prove the correctness of 'palatadacho'. I 
would say that your 'paldadacho' in the subject line is even worse. I did not 
point to your pecadillos (as Fausto has done) and say that people living in 
glass houses sould not pelt stones at others.

Could you please identify the so called fathers of the  Konkani language?
 
  


On 27 May 2010 floriano floriano.l...@gmail.com wrote:

Nice attempt Senhor Borges,

But you are not selling anything to me or to Goans who know and speak their
Konkani.

You are trying to show me as 'one sided' [against Shetgaonkar and pro
tiatrists] which is not so. But then, you have the right to feel free. This
is democracy.

I, for one, do not see tiatrs. And they do not turn me on. Tiatrs need to
evolve to a greater extent to sensitize and/or entertain Goan audiences to a
far superior degree than what is happening today.When we see master-pieces
around with other languages or cultures, our tiatrs are a damp squib. But
then, that is all we have and we have to make do.

I have not seen the movie in question yet. But I have noted the superior
quality of this production. My only hurt is that the Title does not evoke
the pride that it should of the superlative work Shetgaonkar has put in ...
going by that I have read and heard about the movie.

Questioning the aberrations in a superlative work of art  raises far too
many eyebrows than the normal grind. As a Konkani enthusiast yourself, I
would want you to take this serious concern of non-standardized konkani
words to the fore and initiate  some action.

Regarding 'Buimearantlo Munis' , in my kirkol konkani, all I had to do was
to insert a couple of apostrophes to segregate the vowels i.e.
Buim'ea'rantlo which unfortunately I missed to do. My apologies. And yes, as
it is written it could, to a non konkani person, sound like  Bui' mea'
rantlo'

Hence, whatever you may do, you will have to give me a convincing argument
that 'PALTADACHO MUNIS  does sound like PALTODCHO or POLTODCHO or PALTODICHO
MUNIS

Rest assured, my indignation is only meant to sound the ears of the so
called fathers of the  Konkani language.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Fw: ' Paldadacho Munis' - Review by Derek Almeida - GT- May 25 Pg12.

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
Seems that Floriano is raising a ruckus about as silly a matter as the spelling 
of the title of a movie. I fail to understand his sudden concern for the 
spelling of Konkani words. In the last few years we have seen in Herald scores 
of Tiatr advertisements wherein the titles literally murder Konkani. And the 
tiatrists claim to be writers of Konkani in Roman script, something that 
Shetgaonkar has never claimed? But has Floriano reprimanded the tiatrists even 
once, let alone call for a boycott of their shows? So why take on poor 
Shetgaonkar? Is there more than meets the eye here?

Let us look at the issue dispassionately. Unlike Devanagari and other Indic 
scripts, a majority of the characters of the Roman alphabet do not possess 
their own unique sound; this varies not only from language to language but also 
within one and the same language, even within a single word. These sounds have 
evolved separately and independently over several centuries in each of the 
various European languages for which the Roman script is native; it has been 
there right from the birth of each of them. Take, for instance, the letter 'a' 
in English words like bake, bald, bat, barley etc. Looks illogical, but not to 
the English reader; he reads the entire word, not the individual characters.

When the Roman alphabet is ADOPTED for a non-native language like Konkani, 
specific sounds need to be specified for individual characters, clusters of 
characters and diacritics. The XVI-XVII century missionaries had done this. But 
the system got lost in the hiatus of a couple of centuries when Konkani was 
banned from even from being spoken. During this period, all the books produced 
by the missionaries were also lost. So, when the language began to be written 
again in this script by semiliterates during the nineteenth century, each one 
wrote according to his lights. Although attempts were later made to develop a 
system, in the absence of an enforcing authority, an universally accepted 
method has eluded us to date. Hence orthographic differences still persist.

Floriano insists that the word should be written as 'poltodcho'. Now, the 
letter D has at least two distinct sounds in Konkani: the soft Portuguese one 
denoted by a single 'd' and the hard English one denoted generally by 'dd'. 
Since Floriano uses a single 'd' for a hard sound, it is obvious that he 
prefers English phonetics. Consider the English word 'paltry'. Doesn't the 
soumd of the first syllable closely resemble that of 'pal' in 'paltadacho'? And 
isn't the sound of the second 'a' the same as that of the first? Moreover, the 
missionaries also used an italicised 'a' for this sound. For instance, today we 
write 'Pormesporacho' but in Thomas Stephens' Doutrina Crista the same word 
appears as PArAmespAracho (the capital A's stand for italicised 'a's). 

Thus it appears that Shetgaonkar has not committed a great sacrilege after all.

On another site, Floriano wrote: There has been  other names for Konkani 
movies especially the  'Buimearantlo Munis' [ a man from the cave] which name 
the Goan people have related very much to the movie on hand. I do not think 
anyone will read the first word in Buimearantlo Munis the way it is spoken in 
normal parlance; it is more likely to be read as 'bui-mearantlo', since, before 
a vowel, M takes a consonantal sound, not nasal. If we were intent on getting 
the correct sound, it could be written as 'bhuim-erantlo' or, better still, as 
'bhum-yerantlo'. Please also note that the B is aspirated.

Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges      


- Original Message -
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:20:58 +0530
From: floriano floriano.l...@gmail.com
To: goa...@goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Fw: ' Paldadacho Munis' - Review by Derek Almeida -
    GT-    May 25 Pg12.
Message-ID: 48290e29cacf4d7591c80dd2fa84e...@home
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=iso-8859-1


- Original Message - 
From: floriano 
To: Devika Sequeira 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: ' Paldadacho Munis' - Review by Derek Almeida - GT- May 25 Pg12.


Devika, My dear,

You don't know what you are talking about.
I am protesting the word 'Paltadacho' because as according to me, in Konkanni 
context,  it tries to sell me  'poltodcho' .

If you don't know your konkanni, don't blame me. The title must be as good as 
the movie.
I can accept 'P o l t o d c h o' but not 'paltadacho', because the Konkanni I 
grew with, has no word like paltadacho meaning poltodcho. If such a word does 
exist, then it is a bastardized version and anything bastardized will not work, 
at least with Konkanni.

I have not said anything about not  accepting the movie, only that true Goans 
should boycot it until the name is sensibly changed or corrected.

However, I shall want you to know that I have not yet seen the movie and shall 
eagerly see it as amd when to the name is announced as ' POLTODCHO MUNIS'

btw KONKANNI IS DOWNSTREAM TODAY BECAUSE OF PSEUDO-GOANS

[Goanet] Konkani in Devnagiri script will kill Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
The first Goan to advocate the exclusive use of devanagari for Konkani, just to 
pocket the award money, was Monsignor Sebastiao Rodolpho Dalgado whose name the 
Dalgado Konknni Akademi (DKA) bears. He did this in 1893 (not 1895 as the 
founder Secretary of DKA would have us believe). The award money must have been 
substantial, for he undertook a trip to Portugal in 1985!
  
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

On 24 May 2010  MD mmdme...@gmail.com wrote:

(The below post is self explanatory and it appears 'devnagari lipi
only' was cunningly incorporated by those who write and read marathi
and want devnagari for KonkNi..just to pocket the award money, who
care if no one is interested??? Definitely not Mangaloreans, who by
far are the largest producers of KonkNi literature in Kannada script,
even old Goa records were maintained in Goikanadi, so Kannada script
can and will claim as the recognized scripts for KonkNi.)

Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Konkani in Devnagiri script will kill Konkani

[Sebastian Borges]

, he would 
be well advised to ensure beforehand that he has sufficient support to pass the 
amendment without making Marathi the Official Language. My contention is that 
no Hindu MLA will ever support the insertion of Roman script without 
simultaneously making Marathi the Official language. 

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] GT 'Debate' Soddun Konn Pollon Ghelo? Hanv vo Borges bab?

[Sebastian Borges]

.
Pratap Naik once again stressed the need of starting DKA. Participants
accepted his suggestion and DKA was established. Fr. Pratap Naik made it
clear to the members that he will not accept any office of DKA. Hence an ad
hoc managing committee was elected.  Fr. Freddy J. da Costa was chosen as
the president, Mr. Agnelo Pires as the Vice-President, Mr. Tomazinho Cardozo
as secretary. Mr. Thomas C. Fernandes as Jt. Secretary, Mr. Prabhakar
Tendulkar as the treasurer. Mr. Zito Almeida and Fr. Eusebio Ferrão as
members and Fr. Pratap Naik was nominated as the advisor.  Fr. Pratap was
enrolled as the first member of DKA.

DKA  appointed a special committee headed by Fr. Matthew Almeida,s.j. to
prepare Konkani orthography in Roman script. It was published by DKA.

1989:
2 July DKA General Council elected new Managing Committee. President:Fr.
Antimo Gomes, Vice-President:Fr. Planton Faria, Secretary:Tomazinho Cardozo,
Joint Secretary: Mr. Vincy Quadros, Members:Cajetan Vaz, Mrs. Berta Menezes
and Mr. Tarkeshwar Naik.

1990-2004:
June 1990 to 23 March DKA remained dormant due to various reasons. Meanwhile
TSKK persuaded the office bearers either to revive DKA or if it is not
possible to close it down.

1992:
20th August through an amendment to the Constitution of India Konkani was
included in the Eighth Schedule of the Constitution.

2004:
25th March Fr. Pratap Naik took the initiative to revive the DKA. He
discussed this matter with Fr. Freddy da Costa and Mr. Tomazinho Cardozo.
Subsequently two times Fr. Freddy, Mr. Tomazinho and Mr. Prabhakar Tendulkar
and Fr. Pratap Naik, s.j. met at Gulab office at Panaji to discuss the
matter of Roman script and DKA.

12th May Romi writers and readers were invited at T.B.Cunha Hall to discuss
the matter related to Roman script. It was officially decided once again to
revive DKA. Fr. Freddy was chosen as the convener. Secretary and treasurer
remained the same as before. Wilmix Mazarello, Cipriano Lopes, Cosma
Fernandes, Dr. Olivinho Gomes, Jose S. Fernandes, Fr. Peter Raposo, Fr. Ave
Maria Afonso, Wilfred Menezes, Willy Goes, Andrew and Fr. Pratap Naik, s.j.
were nominated as members of the ad hoc managing committee.

17th May Fr. Freddy died.

19th June Mr. Tomazinho was chosen as the convener to lead DKA.

...

Aiz te 'debate'-ik orth urunk na karonn Tomazinho baban ek sot manun ghetlam: 
DKA-chi stapnnuk 1988 vorsa zal'li, mhonnje DKA was established in 1988, not 
in 1989. Hem sot tache kodden kobul korun ghevpak mhaka tin voir vorsam 
laglim. Punn 

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

On 19 May 2010 tomazinho cardozo tomazinho@gmail.com wrote:
GT ?DEBATE?  SODDUN KONN POLLON GHELO?  HANV VO BORGES BAB?

( May 14, 2010 hea disa GOA Net hacher ailole Borges babachea zabab-ak 
poilo ?DEBATE? hache vixim zabab ditam. Ho zabab lamb aslolea karannank 
lagon tannem ghatlolea heram bogllanttancher uprant uzvadd ghaltam)

Amchea Borges babachi ti zolmanchich sonvoim zaun asa.  Apnnem pap korop 
ani tem pap zata zalear dusreancher lottovn ghalop. ?Gomantak Times? 
(GT) hea Inglez potracher tannench suru kelole bhasabaxecher bariksannen 
niyall kelear tem sid?dh zata ani hanvem  ?Debate? korunk avhan dilolem 
ti ?DEBATE?   soddun konnem poll kaddli tenvuim provar zata.

..
Hanvem teach vixoyacher GT-cher ek lekh boroilolo. Borges babacho 
?Lipirog? ustolo ani rokddench tannem GT potrak ek chitt boroiloli. Hi 
chitt Junache 10 tarker 2009 hea disa porgott zali. Tea disa hi chorcha 
suru zali. Te chittik hanvem zabab daddlo to sokol ditam: Ho mhojo poilo 
zabab:

First Reply to S. M. Borges? Letter on Gomantak Times dated 17th June

DISSEMINATING IGNORANCE
Mr. S. M. Borges?s letter ? Disseminating ignorance - published on your 
daily dated June 10, 2009 is the result of frustration. I say it is 
frustration only because he has unnecessarily mixed the payment I get as 
a columnist with the issue in question. My friend Mr. Borges gets 
excited immediately if any one states that DKA was formed to fight the 
injustice meted to Konkani in Roman script. It is because he is wearing 
glasses through which he can see only Konkani in Devnagori script and 
nothing else. I have always stated that Konkani in Roman script should 
be given equal status with Konkani in Devnagori script in the Official 
Language Act of Goa. My friend Mr. Borges opposes it with all his might 
because his ultimate aim is to see the end of Konkani in Roman script as 
soon as possible.

Mr. Borges has a lot of time to write letters after letters and he feels 
that everyone else too lives in the same way. Every minute is precious 
to me and hence I would not like to waste my precious time in answering 
questions of Mr. Borges who is not any authority to decide on the issue.

Nevertheless I am prepared to clear all the issues in the confused mind 
of Mr. Borges regarding Konkani in Roman script. Let us have a one to 
one, face to face live debate on this issue in the presence of the media

Re: [Goanet] Konkani - devanagri or Romi?

[Sebastian Borges]

Dear friends,
Discussion on this topic has indeed been going on for a long time. Yet, 
regretfully, abysmal ignorance thereon persists unabated; in fact, because of 
the non-serious participation on the internet, it has become extensive as well. 
The present post is a sample of this situation. Let us analyse some of its 
salient contents.

the Romi is the real Konkani of Goa.
1. To the best of my knowledge, Konkani is the name of the language spoken by 
people living in a part of the western coastal belt of India called Konkan. 
Like any other language it has many dialects which are spoken in certain 
localities or by members of certain groups, like professions, ethnicities etc. 
2. Now, is this Romi a language? If yes, where is this name recorded? I cannot 
claim to know the name of every language in the world but must confess that I 
have not heard of this one. Is it a dialect of Konkani? If yes, where is it 
SPOKEN (like Aldona, Agonda, Satari, Sanguem) or by which community (like 
fisherman, carpenter, brahmin, charddo, kunnbi, velip, Christian, Hindu etc.)?
3. What characteristics or attributes make it real as against others which may 
be unreal?

Borges ... has been writing endlessly, his strong love for the devanagri
Konkani
Could I please see a sample or two from my endless writing wherein I have 
expressed my strong love for the devanagari Konkani whatever the last two 
words might mean?

his correspondence is mostly in romi (not the writing) but the 
pronounciations
What is this supposed to mean? Is there something called 'romi pronunciations'? 
Could I be favoured with a sample of this as well? I was under the (mistaken?) 
impression that romi stands for a script which is used for WRITING; but here 
Jerry qualifies it with not the writing. Hence my curiosity. Trust Jerry will 
help.

I wonder why he does not write his mails in devanagri,(he may use the romi 
script as goanet does not support the devanagri font)
What is the meaning of this? How can I use romi script to write in devanagari? 
Would it be too much to expect a clarification?

Most of what is being said on doordarshan TV, ... just flies over my head and 
makes me wonder if that is the Konkani or Marathi or whatever language it is.
Most of what I heard being read in the Church also flew over my head, as it is 
not in the Konkani language I speak at home or in the local marketplace. I too 
wondered whether it was Latin or Greek or whatever language. But years of 
dinning into my captive ears has made it intelligible; my cerebral computer has 
now become adept at translating the Church medium into my domestic lingo. So, 
if Jerry were to stick to the doordarshan TV long enough, he would surely 
understand what is being said, without bothering whether it is in Konkani or 
Marathi or whatever language.

Finally, why add Dr to my name? In the past people have used such appellations 
to derail a discussion. Therefore please avoid it. I do understand that you 
cannot avoid mentioning my name, but please remember that the person behind 
that name is not, and should never be, the subject of discussion. Let us 
rationally stick to the topic. WHAT is said is important not WHO said it. In 
fact, WHAT is said should be able to stand on its own, irrespective of WHO said 
it.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges

   

On 17 May 2010 Jerry Fernandes jerry...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Netters,

This Konkani Romi / devanagri discussion has been going on for quite a long
time with no way the devanagris agreeing to accept that the Romi is the real 
Konkani of Goa.

Dr Borges the staunch supporter and the main correspondent on goanet for
devanagris has been writing endlessly, his strong love for the devanagri
Konkani, but what amazes me is that his correspondence is mostly in romi (
not the writing) but the pronounciations, and I wonder why he does not write 
his mails in devanagri,(he may use the romi script as goanet does not
support the devanagri font) , and I am curious to read and see if I can
understand the devanagri Konkani.

Most of what is being said on doordarshan TV, in the short time allotted to
Goa, just flies over my head and makes me wonder if that is the Konkani or
Marathi or whatever language it is.


Cheers

Jerry Fernandes

Sebastian Borges

[Goanet] SON?VARACHIM SUNGTTAM: Amche ?Self-styled? Som?padpi! - II

[Sebastian Borges]

 Sobhent bhoumot naslear, voir 
sanglam titleancho-i ekvott kiteak upkarot kai?  Salubaban Vidhan Sobhechem 
'arithmetic' pollelam, 'analyse' kelam? Thoim chearantle tin vantte Hindu Amdar 
asat mhu? 1987 vorsa jedna Rajbhas Kaido pas kel'lo tedna legun oslich (punn 
odhik bori) poristhiti asloli.  Punn tedna sorgest Rajiv Gandhicho danddo (don 
'observers' hea rupan) Vidhan Sobhent hajir aslo. Xivay Devnagari lipi ani 
Moratthik Sohobhaxecho dorzo him lolipopam tankam dakhoilolim. Aiz toslem 
kainch na. 
Xivay, sogleant poilim apli chiptti bhorun DKA-chem vangddiponn melloilolea 
padreaban, PUDDHARI Moratthi disalleak dil'le mulakhotint, svota oxem sanglam: 
Purtugez Goyant yeunche adim Goykar Moratthi bhasoch boroitale ani Konknni 
fokot uloitale; Evropi Kristanv misionarimni Konknni bhaxek Romi lipint borpi 
rup dilem. Hem zanna zaun, konn Hindu Amdar aplo dhorm sambhallunk adar dil'le 
Moratthik kuxin dovrun Padrimni toyar kel'le lipik tenko diunk raji zait? 
Moratthikoi Rajbhaxecho dorzo diunk prostav fuddem haddlo zalear (Parrikar 
baban hea adim oslo prostav manddlolo asa, hem visorchem nhoi!) kitle Hindu 
Amdar taka virodh kortole? Oxem korunk tankam khoinchean noitik bollgem (moral 
strength) mellttolem? Hacher Salubaban vistaran uzvadd ghalcho. Tedna porian, 
lolipopam khait khuxal ravnchem.

Kherit chotray: Sungttanchi mukhel bazarpetth mhollear Akhati Goenkaracho G-G 
tintto; thoincheanuch (GW hache vorvim) tim hea thollar pavtat. Tea tintteacho 
mukhel tabedar dedd mhoineache rojer aslolo tedna palvi tabedaran mhoje kaim 
visvonn tea tinttear khopoilole. Atam mukhel tabedar porthun kamar aila khoim. 
To I am also in the same league of getting the issues to the attention of All, 
when it reaches us oxem bodday marun sangta khoro; punn fottinchim sungttam 
khopounk adar korta zalear sotache visvonn dhaddlear te bhair marta; palvi 
tabedar hatunt meter zaunk sodina, apnnak toxi porvan'gi na mhunn sangta. Tech 
khatir mhozo ho visvonn tea tinttear tumkam discho na. Hea adlo-i (Re: BORGES 
BAB POLL KADDPACHI TOYARI KORTA KAI?) tumche nodrek thoim poddonk na, punn 
hangach poddla. Hachi vachpeamni nond gheunchi mhunn vinonti.   

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges  






On 15 May 2010  Goa World goa.wo...@yahoo.com wrote:


? Amche ?Self-styled? Som?padpi! - 
II

Romi lipientlean Konknnichi anik-ui udorgot zaunchi mhonn Dalgado Konknni 
Akademik (DKA) sorkara koddchean onudan (grants) mellonk lagot porian, don 
gozali ghoddunk lagleat ? Poili, Romi lipientlean Konknnicho zo anik-ui vavr 
zaunk zai aslo to atam aste-aste fuddem veta. Dusri gozal, DKA-k sorkari onudan 
favlam mhonn jahir zalam tea disa thavn tem aiz meren khubxea zannank he 
gozalichi jirvonnuch zaina. Hanche modem ?fokot Devnagori? mhonnpi bhoktancho 
aspav asa to zaloch, punn vichitr mhonnlear Romi lipientlea kaim masikanchea 
som?padpeancho-i aspav asa?
?
?. dekunuch, bara mhoineantlean chovis pavtti tanchea masik-mhoinealleantlea 
ogrlekhantlean vo lekhantlean directly vo indirectly ?DKA ?add vikh onkhlolem? 
pois ravun DKA-cher fator xevttilole?? DKA vixim sot nasloleo gozali?. adi. 
vachunk melltat. Oxe ritin te dolle dhampun don gozali korunk panvlam fuddem 
ghaltat ? Poili gozal,? Romi lipientlean Konknni mollar DKA zo vavr korta taka 
addkholl ghalpacho khottpott, ani dusri gozal, lokanchea monant goir-somoz 
nirmann korop. Heo don-ui khunnam kherit bhaxen Romi lipientlea Konknni 
masikamni dison yevop boreachim lokxonnam nhoi.
DKA-k sorkarachem onudan mellonk suru zaunche poilim, DKA-chem konnakuch poddon 
gelolem naslem. DKA-chi konnuch khobor korinaslo. DKA-cher konnuch kainch, 
borem naka zaum, vankddem legit borounk (eka masikan ekdam DKA-chea eka 
sekretarachi mulakhat ghetloli to opvad? - exception -? soddlo zalear) 
vochonaslo. DKA-cho konnakuch kosloch forok poddonaslo. DKA-cho konnakuch 
kosloch husko naslo?.. 
..?ani khub arthik vorsam (financial years) sorkara kodde oundan magot aslole 
DKA-k okosmat eka vorsa sorkar onudan diun tichea vavrak maneotay dita tednam, 
eke ratin DKA Romi lipientlea kaim masik-potramni negative ritin limelight-ik 
yeta? DKA-cher buniyad naslole arop zatat? DKA-chim podam-sutram samballtana 
DKA-cho vavr fuddem vhorunk opangull zaloleank-ui sorkarachem onudan melltoch 
okosmat DKA-cho interest yeunk lagta?. Sogllem vichitruch ghoddonk lagta? 
?
Romi lipientlean Konknnicho vavr anik-ui nettan zauncho mhonn sorkaran DKA-k 
dilolem onudan tor kaim som?padpeank ?lolipopam? distat; punn tech som?padpi 
aplea masik-mhoinealleank sorkaracheo jairati magtat ani ghetat tednam tankam 
teo jairati mat ?lolipopam? disonant. Kiteak kai?? 
DKA jednam kosleo-i karyavolli ghoddun haddta tednam Romi lipientlea kaim 
Konknni masik-potranchea som?padpeank dusreanchea sangnneamvelean tea 
karyavollintlim ?unneponnam? disun yetat?. Ani tea ?unneponn?-anchim karonnam 
khobor nastona he som?padpi aplea ogrlekhantlean apnnak dista toselem 
?fanciful

Re: [Goanet] BORGES BAB POLL KADDPACHI TOYARI KORTA KAI?

[Sebastian Borges]

! 

Dusrea prosnank magir hat ghalum-ia oxem mhonnop mhollear poll kaddop oxem 
zaich na. Punn oglle alaite mud'de ube korun, mull prosn guttlaun konnxeak 
marpachi hanchi sonvoy hanvem khubdam onnbhovlea. This is my first and last 
response mhunn boroun, tatunt I shall give the answer mhunn sangun poll 
kaddpi hanv nhoi. Tech khatir atam tem korunk hanv taka diunk sodina. Punn 
soglem sot uktaddar ye porian moidanar ravpachem utor ditam. Mhaka 'reminder' 
dhaddpachi palli tacher yeunchi na.

Hanvem DKA-chea emblem-acho ekuch puravo divpa fattlem karonn mhollear to 
public document konnai vachpeachea somor ubo asa; zai tedna, chantte-pavlak, 
to polleunk melltta. Tea puravea xivay svota Tomazinho babache lekh asat; sabar 
pavtti tannem DKA was founded in 1989 oxem boroilolem asa. Punn tem 
disalleancher asa; tim pornnim disallim sodop eka vachpeak titlem-xem sompem 
nhoi. Atam Professor Dr. Olivinho Gomes babachea, halinch uzvaddailolea, 
pustokantui It resulted soon thereafter into the constitution of the Dalgado 
Konkani Akademi in 1989 oxem vachunk melltta (p. 179).  Tomazinho baban fuddem 
haddla to puravo hea sogleak negar veta. Tacho ho puravo sot mhunn svikar 
kelo zalear Tomazinho baba vangddach Olivinho bab-ui fotting tharta. Olivinho 
bab kaim ek sottorfottor olpxikxit nhoi; to ek nanvazto zannkar xonxodhok ani 
tannem sobar xekddeam-adlea onek ghoddnnukacheo tarkho dileat.  Hacher dubhav 
ghevpachem dhaddos konnakuch aiz porian zaunk
 na. Punn atam zor, apleach jivitant ghoddoilole, apunnuch vanttekar aslole, 
sonsthechea sthapnnuk vorsant to chuk korta, zalear tachem soglem mhan kar'ya 
dubhavant yevpachi xokyotay nhoikarunk zaina; protiek tarikh ani mahiti 
challnnint ghalun topaschi poddttoli. Toxem zaunk favo na. Dekhun Tomazinho 
babacho puravo ek 'forgery'ch asunk zai. Ani toxem zaunchem nhoi zalear, 
Tomazinho baban mhojea prosnank promannikponnim zapo diun sot uktem korunk adar 
korum-ieta. Toso adhar korunk taka mhojem nomllayechem apovnnem!

Salubabak zap diun mhozo moladik vell vhogddaunk hanv sodina; tannem tor apli 
okkol he adinch ghannak dovorloli asa. Mumboint moidanar, lokache kormonnuki 
khatir, khetim khellovpi hanvem polloileat; tanche borobor tanche 'hoiba' 
astat. He hoiba to nachovpi dhoni kitem uloita tachim nimannim utram 'repeat' 
kortat. Salubab tench korta.

Sotachench zoit zatolem.
Mog asum.
Sebastian Borges


On 12 May 2010  jose fernandes konk...@gmail.com wrote:

Sod'deak Borges-bab apnnench manddlolea zallant sampoddleat, ani tantuntlean
bhair sorpachi poll vatt polletat, punn tankam ti sampddon sampddona ani
sampoddpachi-i na. Hantuntlean Borges-babak dekh kitem? Itlich: Fuddarak
tannim, how many devils can dance on the head of a pin oxe torechea
orthacheo 'scrupulous' gozali borounche poilim sat nhoi, sot'tor pavtti sat
chintchem.

Mog asum,
Salu

On 11 May 2010 tomazinho cardozo tomazinho@gmail.com wrote:

 Mayache 4 tarkecho Borges baban dilolo zabab vachlo. Borges bab zhuzachem
 moidan soddun poll kaddunk sodta oxem mhaka dislem. Oxem dispak karonn
 mhunttlear Borges bab aplea zababan akhrek oxem mhunntta:

 ?Hea prosnanchi zap mellttokoch amcheamni dusrea prosnank hat ghalunk
 zatolem.?  Dusarea utramni tea proxnnanchi zap mellona zalear Borges bab
 dusrea proxnnank hat ghalina. Mhunnchem Borges bab poll kaddpachi toyari
 korta.

 Borges bab bore bhoxen zanna ki Tomazinho Cardozo tachea proxnnank zab
 diuncho na mhunn ani  tantuntleantuch, Tomazinho-cher nib dovrun,  apunn hi
 chorcha soddun jiv poddta thoim polltolom mhunn.Borges bab tuje lagim
 ?khoddegantth? puraver asat te vaprun tuje mud?de mandd  dusreachea
 zababancher patyon ravonakai. Te tuka kednanch mellchena. ?Sotachench zoit
 zatolem? mhunn bob marpi amchea Borges babak dusreamnni dilolea zababancher
 patyon ravchem poddta mhunn mhaka tache churchure disonk laglea.

 Ani ek sang re Borges bab, tujea proxnnank hanvem zabab diupak tum konn? Ek
 Police Inspector? vo Ek Nitidar?  Zanna za, zache lagim bhasabaxent vantto
 ghevpak  xokti asa to aplea svothachea puraveancher adharun mud?de mandtta
 dusreachea zababancher patyon nhoi.

 Torui punn hanvem zo sorgest Pri. Freddy hanem soi kelolo puravo dila,
 tacher tujea sogllea proxnnacheo zapo asat. Teo sodun kadd mure papia?

 Tuvem tea puraveak lagon mhojer ?forgery?-cho arop ghatlai. Tuven kedeai
 vhoddlea tallean  ti ?forgery? mhunnon bob marli zalear ti  ?forgery? zaina.
 DKA-chea ?Emblem?-acher sthapnneche voros 1989 asa mhunn ti ?forgery? zaina.
  Ghoddlolea ghoddneanchem ?interpretation? korun ek ghoddnnent asloli soi
 ?forgery? zaina.  Ti ?forgery? zatoli zalear tuven tea purvear asa ti soi
 sorgest Pri. Freddy-chi nhoi mhunn purave diunk zai. Apunn ?khoddegantth?
 puravekar mhunn soglleak fottaxi martai zalear ?khoddegantth? sodduch zata
 zalear ek ?oskot? tori puravo di zache vorvim tea kallaili Pri. Freddy-chi
 soi ani hanvem dilea ti soi veg-veglleo asat mhunn provar zaundi. Hem tuka
 anik ek avhan asa. Tum, profosor zalolea karannan