Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think we should give people a false impression that shoes are a bad thing. Sometimes a horse needs shoes depending on feet/terrain. Yes, we agree that there are times that shoes are necessary. There are three good reasons for using shoes: [] Protection [] Traction [] Therapeutic When we're talking about evaluations, it's on a groomed track right? No need for shoes. Judy Actually, I would disagree. We ride on a groomed track at the Paneawa Equestrian Center (Its pretty cool, a county paid track and rodeo arena with stands and stalls) Where there are horses shows and rodeos and lessons and lots of riding. Anyway, just becuase you might ride there, does not mean where your horse lives is ok for them to be with out shoesI am not saying that is why they use shoes in Evals and competitions, what I am saying is that some horses need shoes, period. A horse has to be able to live without shoes in their home terrain and where they are ridden, and be totally comfortablesome horses because of their living environment or where they are ridden or because of their horn quality Just can't. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Questions re: possible purchase
--- Maggie Errea Hults [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the current owner sent a photo-i will try to attach it... lets see if that goes thru. any advice would be appriciated. Thank you Maggie What is the mares Sire and Dam? Is she registered and if so Have you seen the papers, or can you look her up in the USIHC? I have a friend here who knows a lot of the Saga horses...so if I have some parentage I might be able to get info on her parents or Grand Sire/Dam Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Tolt, Saddle Rack or Rack
So how does it differ from RW? How can I tell the difference from the ground and in the saddle? I can usually tell those two apart by the horse's body language, especially the head. In the saddle rack, the head is usually is very still, at least slightly raised, but it doesn't have to be anything extreme like in some of the yucky videos Judy linked to recently. In the running walk, the head needs to be loose in order for each foot to be independent, so you get the head-nod - although the head nod doesn't seem to be so distinct in horses with short necks as with, say, a lot of the long-necked TWH. (Trausti has a longish, lower-set neck as Icelandics go - it's very easy to see his head nod at the running walk.) They have some overlapping speed range at the lower end, although I think the saddle rack can go to higher speeds without morphing into another gait. As far as in the saddle, I can feel a very slight motion in the running walk (not noticeably side-to-side NOR front-to-back - I can't exactly explain it) where with the saddle rack, the horse seems to move around me, but I'm sitting perfectly still. Someone (my local buddy?) once described rack as sitting in the eye of the storm. Anyway, all of this is...as I'm sure everyone is tired of me saying...described extremely well in Lee Ziegler's book! I've never found anything to disagree with her description of the gaits - and I question EVERYTHING! These are GENERALLY true I think, by my observation anyway and by what I've learned from Lee and Liz and from my own horses...but I know there are variations that I simply can't explain yet. I'm thinking about the Parelli-ism that applies here especially well: Don't always say always, never say never, and usually say usually. For instance, I can't yet get my head around the paso llano, which I THINK is supposed to have footfalls much like a running walk, but no head motion. I think that's because the Peruvians are SUPPOSED to have that winging-like motion that originates from the shoulder, but I haven't had enough experience with the breed to have a clue really. I'm just saying this as a disclaimer, that there are some notable gaps in my gait knowledge - and I'm not sure they will ever go away! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt, Saddle Rack or Rack
Sitting in the eye of the storm is terrific! That's exactly what it's like to ride Hunter at a speed rack. And even though my bottom, feet and legs may be relaxed and still, a good sports bra is a must. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Tolt, Saddle Rack or Rack
I have a gps that's pretty accurate MOST of the time (except for the one time it measured Eitill at 110 mph!!!) Cool! I bet you'd win at pace racing! ;P Yeah, he was just plain walking that day too. Just think what he could do at a flat walk... ;) Seriously, we were riding in the mountains that day, on carriage trails that weren't so steep, but altitude does have an effect on the accuracy of GPS readings I think. The only really odd thing I remember from that ride is that at one point he slipped on some loose gravel going downhill, maybe for 4-5 feet. Maybe, during a period of about 1/100 of a second, he really was going at a record pace! Who knows. Most of the other GPS readings from those trails were right-on relating to distance traveled (per the marked trail map) and based on how long we were gone. I'll never know what caused that one maximum speed blip! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, susan cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It means you have a very talanted horse, and if you want her to be consistant in a gait, you need to learn to be consistant, too. That makes sense, but I didn't think I did very much different while Gat was changing her gaits, so maybe my changes were more reactions that I didn't notice. I need to practice more to get a feel for what's happening. Now, I've heard about some of your lessons with your coach, and I'm not trying to be mean here, but I really don't think that person is the one who is capable of helping you sort out the gaits and figure out how to cue for each one and become consistant in one gait. Gat is boarded at a hunter/jumper barn and the coaches there don't work with gaited horses and never seem to know anything when I discuss gaits--they just encourage us to keep Gat in w/t/c, and that's fine for Alex's lessons, but I want to learn more about gaits. Does your digital camera have video capabilities? If so, get some videos and upload them to You-Tube. Yes--I'll have to try that. Oh, do you have Lee Ziegler's Easy-Gaited Horses? If not, buy it today! I do have it, and I confess that I look at it once in while, get confused. :D V
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/28/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, she has probably gone most of her life, just offering stuff and either being framed by the rider, or mooshing around in whatever. I don't know anything about her background other than we bought her from a breeder who had her brought in from Iceland. I would hope that they would know how to ride one of their horses, so I figured that I just don't know how to bring out her bes When a trainer doesn't know gaits and can only get gaits by framing a horse, the horses miss out on learning about gaits themselves (because they don't learn if they are force framed). I'm not really sure how to 'frame' so maybe that's what Gat knows and since I don't, she was confused and was offering me everything trying to figure me out. I had her in a sidepull and mostly on a loose rein. A few times I would try more contact and a higher hold, just to see what would happen. I need to play mo So say we have a pacey young horse, and about the best gait it'll be able to do under saddle is a stepping pace which can be quite comfortable. We can work with the horse and establish that as the default gait, and help the horse attain self-carriage, so the horse can do it on a loose rein. How do you get the horse to attain self-carriage? (I'm sure that's a big topic!) V
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/28/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe try to isolate one or two gaits at first, then try to brag on her for doing the ones you like. Gat was changing her gaits quite quickly, so when she has one I want to isolate do I just praise her? What do I do when she changes? Ignore it and just praise everytime she gets into the one I'm isolating? It might help to think of it this way - maybe ride once or twice as a passenger, just trying to feel everything in her range for YOUR education. Yes, that's what I was thinking of doing. V
RE: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
That makes sense, but I didn't think I did very much different while Gat was changing her gaits, so maybe my changes were more reactions that I didn't notice. I need to practice more to get a feel for what's happening. It may simply be that she doesn't have a clue what's expected of her. It sounds like she understands what Alex expects of her, aiming towards w/t/c. But if I were to guess, I'd say there's a good chance that either 1) no one ever tried to isolate and set her easy gaits, or 2) she was TOLD she HAD to gait with odd rider positions, heavy rein contact, maybe even odd shoeing/trimming. I'm guessing of course, but that's fairly typical. She may simply have never felt the need to settle into one gait and hold it without someone holding her up with the reins so to speak. Gat is boarded at a hunter/jumper barn and the coaches there don't work with gaited horses and never seem to know anything when I discuss gaits--they just encourage us to keep Gat in w/t/c, and that's fine for Alex's lessons, but I want to learn more about gaits. I hate the attitude that a horse HAS to do any specific set of gaits, be that forcing a virtually three-gaited horse to tolt or in insisting that a strongly laterally/pacey-gaited horse only w/t/c. BUT, for what it's worth, it might be good for you to encourage her to trot at least part of the time, especially if Alex is going to continue riding and showing her. She seems to have figured out what is expected in Alex's lessons, so just be careful she doesn't now get the idea that w/t/c is suddenly wrong. Man, this can be so much fun...but it can also be very tough, walking a fine line. You're doing well though. Hang in there! Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
When we're talking about evaluations, it's on a groomed track right? No need for shoes. sure, but presumably one is still riding one's horse on a usual basis, and usual reasons apply. stjarni's back feet chip sometimes on our terrain, so he has front shoes for protection. i'm not about to pull them on the off chance that a show ground has a nicer track. Judy mentioned evaluations, not showing. Evaluations are actually breeding evaluations and are SUPPOSED to be a way of measuring the horse's weaknesses and strengths for breeding. (I don't buy into the criteria at all, but that's another story...) So, if the horse forges or does something that requires shoes, then that should be plainly visible when he/she is evaluated since it's possible that the cause is heritable. It should be noted as part of the record if the evaluations are to be meaningful at all. When many important - and heritable - traits can be disguised, the whole purpose of the procedure is defeated...and I think that's what's going on with the current system. WAY too much can be hidden. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
Gat was changing her gaits quite quickly, so when she has one I want to isolate do I just praise her? What do I do when she changes? Ignore it and just praise everytime she gets into the one I'm isolating? Hey, don't get the idea that I have any precise road map for how to do this - I don't! I can only tell you what I've tried to do, knowing I started on this on-my-own too. (There were local gaited trainers when I got Holly, but I was terrified to try them, afraid I wouldn't recognize the early stages of Big Lick...) You know Gat better than any of us, and you can SEE her. We can't. Actually, I think you're on the right track with the above, mostly praising what's good and ignoring the bad, maybe gradually, as she seems to make the connection as to what you want, saying No gently when it's not what you want. Just not too sharply nor too soon maybe...? Somewhere, listening to myself on video, I got in the habit of saying thank you when the horse does what I'd like. I didn't even realize I was doing it, but hey, they seem to respond! And, while I'm a tack minimalist, I DO think it's easier with these multi-gaited ones to use a bit during any gait isolation phase (I like that better than saying gait training). You can eventually, hopefully not too far down the road, get a signal to the horse with the TINIEST touch on the rein, maybe just using your little finger. A bit conveys your intentions with more precision than does a sidepull. I'm all for using the least tack possible, but if a bit helps for some things, then use it for those things. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
--- Virginia Tupper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do have it, and I confess that I look at it once in while, get confused. :D I think if you get some videos of you and Gat, and like I suggested, talk you way thru the video part and say what you are feeling, like butt cheeks going side to side or front to back or no movement at all. Then we can figure out the gaits for you and you will relate the gait to the feeling and I think it will all make better sense to you. Once you get an idea of the different gaits, then Lee's book will make better sense, and then, I think, you will understand how to cue for the different gaits with just pelvis position and hand position. It will all come toghether in one big light bulb moment! Believe me, we've all been where you are now, but it will come together and make sense. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
[IceHorses] Re: 6/28 Quick Update - Huginn
From Sylvia: Hi, what was Huggin's problem, I am new and missed out on the first part. My horse has never been sick and he is six years old. I gelded him last month and he did fine. He has a seagull on his shoulder on the right side, he is a golden dun paint with salt and pepper mane and tail. I have had him since he was a baby eight months old and called him Willie because his half sister was also mine and her name was Willow. I looked up the name seagull and its Mavur so since he was never registered as a stallion I think I will name him Mavur Fra Heavenly Gaits Icelandics. My mare was three quarter Icelandic and not gaited. They share the same father. I hope Huggin is getting better. Sylvia ___ Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 09:18:19AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: Yes, we agree that there are times that shoes are necessary. There are three good reasons for using shoes: [] Protection [] Traction [] Therapeutic When we're talking about evaluations, it's on a groomed track right? No need for shoes. sure, but presumably one is still riding one's horse on a usual basis, and usual reasons apply. stjarni's back feet chip sometimes on our terrain, so he has front shoes for protection. i'm not about to pull them on the off chance that a show ground has a nicer track. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt, Saddle Rack or Rack
Pretty hard to get video from the side when riding on a dirt road. It will be easier to get it on our track and we will try and do it tomorrow during a riding clinic when were are going to ride different horses to show a variety of gaits and let people see what they look like so they can also put them together with the feel when they are riding. Super!! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
When we're talking about evaluations, it's on a groomed track right? No need for shoes. Actually, I would disagree. We ride on a groomed track A horse has to be able to live without shoes in their home terrain presumably one is still riding one's horse on a usual basis, and usual reasons apply. Yes, I understand what you are saying, but for testing a horse's natural gaitedness, why not do it barefoot? It makes it a level playing field for everyone. Shoes can be removed for one day for the show, and put back on the next day if the home ground requires it. That certainly would not hurt the horse; no one is asking him to go barefoot for any length of time or in bad terrain. Just barefoot on a groomed track for evaluation of natural gaitedness. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Gait Chart
On 6/26/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I notice that 'walk' is next to 'square' - yet Gat will sometimes do a walk that is lateral, if that makes sense. V
Re: [IceHorses] What Gait / Show Video 1
OK - I've resisted this gait identification stuff for as long as I can (It's just really hard) but you guys have convinced me it's important. I have some background because i went through this a lot getting ready to judge dog shows but this is much harder. I can definitely tell a trot from a pace but that's all I guarantee. I am going to go out on a limb and say the palamino is doing a stepping pace but I just couldn't see the mule long enough to tell what it was doing - all I know is there was a lady in the crowd that really likes that mule - I watched the video so many times her voice is stuck in my head :-) Am I right about the palamino? -- Laree
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, susan cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will all come toghether in one big light bulb moment! Believe me, we've all been where you are now, but it will come together and make sense. Thanks! I need the encouragement! V
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
And, while I'm a tack minimalist, I DO think it's easier with these multi-gaited ones to use a bit during any gait isolation phase (I like that better than saying gait training). Which reminds me, and good point about the bit... A snaffle encourages a horse to have it's head up. If a horse is pacey, you may have more success in dealing with that gait, and getting other gaits, if you use a mullen mouth. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a horse is pacey, you may have more success in dealing with that gait, and getting other gaits, if you use a mullen mouth. I tried a happy mouth mullen and Gat hated it! V
Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
On 6/28/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we almost always ride on a loose rein when we use a bit, with only minimal contact. I was instructed to have contact because a loose rein allows the bit to flop around and hit the horses teeth causing discomfort, yet Western riders ride loose rein, so that doesn't make sense to me. V
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somewhere, listening to myself on video, I got in the habit of saying thank you when the horse does what I'd like. I didn't even realize I was doing it, but hey, they seem to respond! Thanks--sounds like a good idea. I find that I don't talk when I ride, and only occasionally murmur when grooming. Guess I'm too focussed on trying to do right and can't talk at the same time. :D I DO think it's easier with these multi-gaited ones to use a bit during any gait isolation phase (I like that better than saying gait training). OK--I'll try that next. I thought that maybe Gat would be more relaxed without a bit. V
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sounds like she understands what Alex expects of her, aiming towards w/t/c. Gat will do w/t/c for Alex, and pace. Plus I've seen Gat do a foxtrot (I think it's called) with Alex posting thinking it was a trot so I know Gat throws in her variables for Alex also. But if I were to guess, I'd say there's a good chance that either 1) no one ever tried to isolate and set her easy gaits, or 2) she was TOLD she HAD to gait with odd rider positions, heavy rein contact, maybe even odd shoeing/trimming. I'm guessing of course, but that's fairly typical. Considering her background you are probably right. , but I want to learn more about gaits. She seems to have figured out what is expected in Alex's lessons, so just be careful she doesn't now get the idea that w/t/c is suddenly wrong. I don't know--she is different with me and different with Alex--I can't get the quality of trot that Alex gets, and Alex can't get a tolt. But I will watch for that. V
RE: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
I tried a happy mouth mullen and Gat hated it! V One of the lumpy ones? Those are pretty thick. I have one, but I've never made myself actually use it on a horse! Maybe a mullen snaffle, or a mullen kimberwicke...? It's just a thought. I've used them sometimes, but we use French link snaffles at the moment, or no bit at all. Here are a couple to look at: http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/items/item922.htm http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/items/item990.htm I didn't see a mullen kimberwicke on the Saddle Up site, but it's not a lot different from the mullen Pelham, depending on where you place the reins on the Kimberwicke, or which rein you use with the Pelham. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Gait Chart
I notice that 'walk' is next to 'square' - yet Gat will sometimes do a walk that is lateral, if that makes sense. A walk, ideally, will be square: 1-2-3-4. However, some walks can leans towards diagonal or lateral. It sounds like Gat is more laterally conformed, so that makes sense. I am working on getting some photos lined up with the gait chart and more explanation... coming soon. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
If a horse is pacey, you may have more success in dealing with that gait, and getting other gaits, if you use a mullen mouth. I tried a happy mouth mullen and Gat hated it! It may not work for all horses, depending on the conformation of the inside of the mouth. Was it too small, or too wide? Could it have been too much mouthpiece (thick)? How is a happy mouth mullen different from a regular mullen? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
I was instructed to have contact because a loose rein allows the bit to flop around and hit the horses teeth causing discomfort, yet Western riders ride loose rein, so that doesn't make sense to me. Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Ideally, you want the horse to pick up and carry the bit himself. We need to have trainers and owners who understand how to help the horse learn that behavior; to be able to use the bit for communication, and not force frame or stopping. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] What Gait / Show Video 1
I am going to go out on a limb and say the palamino is doing a stepping pace but I just couldn't see the mule long enough to tell what it was doing - all I know is there was a lady in the crowd that really likes that mule - I watched the video so many times her voice is stuck in my head :-) I think you're right about the Palomino. You Tube is a nice tool, but some resolution is lost compared to the raw video I can see on my own PC's, even from the videos from my cheap little digital camera. But go out on the same limb as you - hope our combined weight doesn't break it off the tree! :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It may not work for all horses, depending on the conformation of the inside of the mouth. Was it too small, or too wide? Could it have been too much mouthpiece (thick)? It was probably too thick. Why, though, would a mullen be better for pacey horses? How is a happy mouth mullen different from a regular mullen? The happy mouth is those plastic apple flavored bits. V
[IceHorses] Re: What Gait / Show Video 1
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're right about the Palomino. You Tube is a nice tool, but some resolution is lost compared to the raw video I can see on my own PC's, even from the videos from my cheap little digital camera. But go out on the same limb as you - hope our combined weight doesn't break it off the tree! :) I had the same problem, but I'm going to take a guess at the mule and say, flat walk? Kim
[IceHorses] Re: Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was instructed to have contact because a loose rein allows the bit to flop around and hit the horses teeth causing discomfort, yet Western riders ride loose rein, so that doesn't make sense to me. Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Ideally, you want the horse to pick up and carry the bit himself. We need to have trainers and owners who understand how to help the horse learn that behavior; to be able to use the bit for communication, and not force frame or stopping. When I went up to watch Leslie Desmond, I saw the most intereting thing. She bridled this horse really loose. I mean really loose, like the bit was hanging down between his teeth, I was kind of nervous that the bit could actually come out of his mouth. Nobody was on his back. What happened was, she left it like that and within minutes the horse picked up the bit and held it in his mouth where it felt comfortable, pretty much where you would expect a bit to be held. The horse will carry the bit, she was sure of it, I would guess she has seen this happen multiple times:) I guess a general question that has crossed my mind is: How much do we rely on pain to get our horses to respond? I don't think we really need to go there at all, so what is the path to no pain? I think first we have to recognize what kinds of common practices actually cause our horses pain. After that, it might be a long journey to figuring out what works in a partnership. Kim
[IceHorses] Re: Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was instructed to have contact because a loose rein allows the bit to flop around and hit the horses teeth causing discomfort, yet Western riders ride loose rein, so that doesn't make sense to me. Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Ideally, you want the horse to pick up and carry the bit himself. We need to have trainers and owners who understand how to help the horse learn that behavior; to be able to use the bit for communication, and not force frame or stopping. When I went up to watch Leslie Desmond, I saw the most intereting thing. She bridled this horse really loose. I mean really loose, like the bit was hanging down between his teeth, I was kind of nervous that the bit could actually come out of his mouth. Nobody was on his back. What happened was, she left it like that and within minutes the horse picked up the bit and held it in his mouth where it felt comfortable, pretty much where you would expect a bit to be held. The horse will carry the bit, she was sure of it, I would guess she has seen this happen multiple times:) I guess a general question that has crossed my mind is: How much do we rely on pain to get our horses to respond? I don't think we really need to go there at all, so what is the path to no pain? I think first we have to recognize what kinds of common practices actually cause our horses pain. After that, it might be a long journey to figuring out what works in a partnership. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When we're talking about evaluations, it's on a groomed track right? No need for shoes. Actually, I would disagree. We ride on a groomed track A horse has to be able to live without shoes in their home terrain presumably one is still riding one's horse on a usual basis, and usual reasons apply. Yes, I understand what you are saying, but for testing a horse's natural gaitedness, why not do it barefoot? It makes it a level playing field for everyone. Shoes can be removed for one day for the show, and put back on the next day if the home ground requires it. That certainly would not hurt the horse; no one is asking him to go barefoot for any length of time or in bad terrain. Just barefoot on a groomed track for evaluation of natural gaitedness. Judy I can understand what you are saying, but I think a trainer would want to show the horse with shoes if that was the way the horse was trained. Same with tack, they would not want to train in a certain bit or even saddle, then change it that day. You train in what you are going to compete or be evauluated in. And I could understand that. I would like to see it be an option to be evaulated or compete without shoes...that way there is a choice, and more natural style riders or trainers, or even owners who are having their horses evaluated would have a choice. I like choices. If we lived in Calfornia, we would have some of our mares and Stallions evaluated.as it is, from here it is Very cost prohibited. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
[IceHorses] Question - New Age Vikings
Judy, I think you said you have this book. Anyone else? I notice some of the horses are being ridden with a rein that snaps to a snaffle ring and others are ridden with reins that might have a chain at the end - or maybe two snaps? What is that? There's one shown on page 5, page 10, page 31. Also for the gait gurus. On page 35 it shows what is labeled as Canter/Gallop. I thought (and you all may know I am struggling to learn about gaits) that one was three beats and the other four. Wonderful photography, by the way. I rarely have the urge to leave home, but think I would like to visit Iceland. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
It was probably too thick. Why, though, would a mullen be better for pacey horses? Because the jointed snaffle encourages a horse to lift it's head. With a pacey horse, we don't want the head lifted, we want it down somewhat and more relaxed. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] What Gait / Show Video 1
Here's a couple of horses whose gaits are different: http://iceryder.net/theduff/videosgaitshowdm.html I added slo-mo to this page; look at the second video. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] What does it mean?
On 6/29/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tried a happy mouth mullen and Gat hated it! V One of the lumpy ones? Those are pretty thick. I thought it was thick too, and apparently too thick for Gat cuz she didn't like it at all. Here are a couple to look at: http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/items/item922.htm http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/items/item990.htm I'll check them out. V
[IceHorses] Measuring speed in gait
These look interesting...enough to make me order one. I have a handheld mapping GPS that I like, but this one is smaller and should be more convenient for learning to judge speed. http://tinyurl.com/2x74hc Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[IceHorses] Not exactly refined...
http://tinyurl.com/3845j3 Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[IceHorses] Saddle rack - Skjoni
Would this be helpful? Those of you who know Cary and Skjoni know that Cary doesn't do a thing to force Skjoni into tolt. Generally, Skjoni defaults to a saddle rack. (He did do a slightly diagonal 'fox rack at the Liz Graves clinic last fall - I suspect that was because the footing was different in the arena we rode in...?) Anyway, last Thanksgiving, Cary rode him along this same stretch 3-4 times so I could get pictures and a little video. Here is a link to the pictures - the camera was on continuous mode so the shots are VERY close in time. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.bccf2jvbx=0y=q0g64s And here's a link to the video I uploaded to You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHdab8atoiA The pictures were taken literally only seconds before the video. It's not EXACTLY the same stretch in time, but very close to it, with no change in terrain nor footing. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
I guess a general question that has crossed my mind is: How much do we rely on pain to get our horses to respond? For some people, that's the only way they ride. I don't think we really need to go there at all, so what is the path to no pain? I think first we have to recognize what kinds of common practices actually cause our horses pain. After that, it might be a long journey to figuring out what works in a partnership. I think that once we chuck the pain stuff, it might not be such a long journey to get to the partnership! It would be like taking the junk out of the way, and the path is clearer :-). Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] The Horseman's Hippocratic Oath
I swear by Xenophon, and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: To hold the horse and those who have taught me the art of horsemanship, above all others, and to live my life in partnership with the horse, and if he is in need of anything to share what I have with him, and to share this knowledge with anyone who so desires it. I will respect the hard-won gains of those horsemen in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow. I will remember that there is art to horsemanship as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the tack, force, gimmicks, and quick fixes. I will not use metal or wood or any other hard substance to make the horse submissive. I will use only good communication skills to establish a partnership. I will not be ashamed to say I do not know, nor will I fail to call in my horsemen colleagues when the skills of another are needed to help a horse and / or owner. As much as can realistically be done, I will point people away from harsh treatment of the horses, and offer suggestions and alternatives to make it easier for people and horses to have symbiotic relationships. I will seek to prevent problems for the horse whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure. If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of helping those who seek help in the name of the horse. Above all else, do no harm. ~~Judy Ryder 1996 http://iceryder.net/horsemanoath.html Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Question - New Age Vikings
I notice some of the horses are being ridden with a rein that snaps to a snaffle ring and others are ridden with reins that might have a chain at the end - or maybe two snaps? What is that? There's one shown on page 5, page 10, page 31. On page 5, that's a gag bit (not nice): http://iceryder.net/wonderbit.html The other is the icelandic bit (also not a nice bit): http://iceryder.net/icelandicbit.html Also for the gait gurus. On page 35 it shows what is labeled as Canter/Gallop. I thought (and you all may know I am struggling to learn about gaits) that one was three beats and the other four. Yes, icelandic training and riding style (ITRS) doesn't much make a difference between canter / gallop, because they don't canter much. This is the type of thing that you'll see at the icelandic shows and evaluations that takes the place of a canter. We know that the horses *can* naturally canter, but when the riders ride them, they are so much in the horse's mouth,and interfering so much with the horse, that they *can't* canter normally or naturally. They end up doing the *leap and surge*. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Self Carriage
How do you get the horse to attain self-carriage? (I'm sure that's a big topic!) From a RMH trainer: Our focus is on a horse that puts no weight on the reins and responds to the slightest touch. Because the basic foundation of our training method is teaching the horse self carriage or lightness, horses will always perform better in whatever type of equine endeavor you choose to enter. I'll include some text from an article about self-carriage, then we can look at how to describe it, and attain it, in more easily understandable ways. Self-Carriage by Adam Bailey, excerpts from an article entitled: The Alexander Technique: How it Helps Horseback Riders I've discussed the benefits for riders of reducing muscle. Perhaps the most important benefit of all is that it helps riders to pursue self-carriage in their horse. In this sense, the Alexander Technique dovetails beautifully with classical horsemanship, for many riders and teachers of horsemanship agree that doing less plays an important part in developing self-carriage. Let me offer two examples of this. I once saw a banner in a riding arena that said, Where force ends, dressage begins. Second, let us consider Charles de Kunffy's description of self-carriage in his book The Ethics and Passions of Dressage. He says that, first and foremost, self-carriage must involve the relaxation and stretching of the horse's musculature, which will facilitate the horse's ability to absorb the concussions of the impact on the ground throughout his entirety and, therefore, reduce or even eliminate trauma to his joints and muscles. He goes on to say that, if we want to achieve this result, then all tensions and blocking of mobility caused by harsh hands, should be avoided. The hands and the reins should neither inhibit the horse's strides, nor confine his neck. The horse must have utter freedom from restrictive rein contact. Instead, one ought to offer a soft and steady hand -- and at times even a yielding hand -- independent of the balancing activities of the rider, to a confident horse that is stretching towards the bit and seeks an even contact with it. De Kunffy is clearly arguing that one prerequisite of self-carriage is a lessening of undue tension. But what exactly is self-carriage? What are the elements that make it up? Let me offer a simple description. First, as we saw in the de Kunffy quote, self-carriage involves the horse's head leading forward and out from a free and flexible neck and poll. This is sometimes referred to as the horse going in the bridle or on the bit. In other words, we want the horse's head to move not into a set position, but in such a way so that he meets the contact of the bit and of our hands, with his mouth. At the same time, he lifts his back, so that it becomes rounded, as well as free from tension. That is, ideally he is experiencing throughness in the relationship of his head, neck and back. Finally, his hindquarters become deeply engaged - paradoxically so that his forehand (head, neck and shoulders) can lift and lighten. The latter is sometimes referred to as the relative lifting of the forehand. That is, the rider does not directly lift the horse's forehand. Rather, the rider helps the horse to engage his hindquarters and then the horse's forehand will lift automatically. The effect is not unlike that of a seesaw, except that the movement of parts that we are after is much more internal and subtle than the movement of an actual seesaw. _ Now, my opinion of this part of the article is that the writer has the order of the body parts backwards (head, back, hind), whereas we believe that we work on the head last, so the order that makes more sense is: hindquarters, back, then head / neck which does not have to be set as if everything else is OK, the head will fall in the right place naturally. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] The Path to No Pain
When I went up to watch Leslie Desmond, I saw the most intereting thing. She bridled this horse really loose. I mean really loose, like the bit was hanging down between his teeth, I was kind of nervous that the bit could actually come out of his mouth. Nobody was on his back. What happened was, she left it like that and within minutes the horse picked up the bit and held it in his mouth where it felt comfortable, pretty much where you would expect a bit to be held. The horse will carry the bit, she was sure of it, I would guess she has seen this happen multiple times:) Thanks for the input, Kim. It seems to be a growing trend to allow the horse to pick up the bit for communication. I guess a general question that has crossed my mind is: How much do we rely on pain to get our horses to respond? I don't think we really need to go there at all, so what is the path to no pain? I think first we have to recognize what kinds of common practices actually cause our horses pain. I think you're right; and I think that's what we're doing here. It would be ideal to talk about all the positive stuff, but sometimes we *have* to point out the bad things so that we all know what they are. The path to no pain: like the doctor's oath: Do no harm. It starts with learning; knowledge is power. If you pick up a piece of tack, before it's employed, understand the biomechanics behind it. With knowledge you can autonomously evaluate what someone tells you, to figure if it makes sense or not. With horses, degrees / academia do not matter. We are all stripped naked in front of a horse, and go forth to learn from there. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Question - New Age Vikings
Good grief! Thanks, Judy. How did you know from looking at the outside of the bit that it was a gag bit? I did read the info when you posted it the other day, but still did not recognize the bit. I ride with a nice lady who uses an improvised gag bit on a gorgeous 1/2 Arab mare. The other half is Thoroughbred ; she's a Seattle Slew grandaughter. This is not a woman I would confront, but I can't imagine that the raised head/crazed eye is what she's actually wanting from her nice mare. It is often what she's getting. If I were a younger woman (and also had more time) I'd like to take on the mare and see if she wouldn't be a happier horse with a different less in-your-face riding style. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Saddle rack - Skjoni
Anyway, last Thanksgiving, Cary rode him along this same stretch 3-4 times so I could get pictures and a little video. Neat Karen! I like the continuous mode photos--they really show the gait well! And Cary looks to be a very relaxed, easygoing rider. Robyn S
[IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Hey guys, Raven just called me and said she is on her way to the U of M in MN... Huginn's temp when back up to 105 degrees... he had a reaction to the Medicine this morning... Please send prayers and energy to him, this is really scary for Raven... -- Debbie in MN ~ I soar with the Eagles...as I float on the back of my barefoot gaited Morgan ~ Deb's Track system for 2 herds. http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Mounting sequence
On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 09:26:09PM -0600, Robyn Schulze wrote: i'd give him a treat. (not all the time. it's better to be a slot machine than a vending machine, you want them to keep playing :) Really nice analogy here--I like that! i don't think i made it up -- iirc it was something we learned in intro psych, talking about pavlov. seems to be true, anyway :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Oh man! Praying. Nancy
[IceHorses] Re: The Path to No Pain
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're right; and I think that's what we're doing here. It would be ideal to talk about all the positive stuff, but sometimes we *have* to point out the bad things so that we all know what they are. I understand, some of us are taught things about horses, that this is the way it is done and that is it, we are just questioning the norm. With horses, degrees / academia do not matter. We are all stripped naked in front of a horse, and go forth to learn from there. Absolutely, horses care about the feeling of a person, compassion, they could really care less about what they know. Sometimes I think about horses in terms of the Tao of Pooh. Owl knew everything, but he knew so much he was always getting himself confused:) Pooh was simple, he did not think *too* much, and somehow things always turned out the right way in the end. It's sort of like that with horses, just clear your mind, and really *be* with them. Kim
[IceHorses] Re: Saddle rack - Skjoni
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And here's a link to the video I uploaded to You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHdab8atoiA The pictures were taken literally only seconds before the video. It's not EXACTLY the same stretch in time, but very close to it, with no change in terrain nor footing. What a cute horse Skjoni is:) You can see there is a slight slack in the reins, he's not being forced into gait. He looks good. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Meeting or Exceeding the Standard
On 29/06/07, kim morton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I went up to watch Leslie Desmond, I saw the most intereting thing. She bridled this horse really loose. I mean really loose, like the bit was hanging down between his teeth, I did that by accident when bridling Gusti once. This was when I was trying to determine what sort of bit would work with him. Anyway, here I was trying out a new myler comfort snaffle and it somehow had a longer or looser profile than the previous bit I had tried, but I discovered it too late and just decided to continue with the ride and if it was too loose, I would adjust it later. Within about 5 minutes of starting the ride. Gusti stretched out and gathered it up and all was quiet. No chewing, no fussing...not a peep out of him. It was the first time I felt as though I had him in my hands. So, that bridle is staying exactly as it is. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
On 29/06/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, Raven just called me and said she is on her way to the U of M in MN... Huginn's temp when back up to 105 degrees... he had a reaction to the Medicine this morning... Please send prayers and energy to him, this is really scary for Raven... Oh dear...I've been running errands all day, and I've had the two of them in my thoughts most of that time. Lets all imagine that we'll hear great news this evening. I don't want to give the alternative any energy Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Questions re: possible purchase
Skye, one of the other members (thank you Karen) found her on USIHC- http://www.icelandics.org/search/detail.asp?ID=1737 Maggie
Re: [IceHorses] Mounting sequence
i'd give him a treat. (not all the time. it's better to be a slot machine than a vending machine, you want them to keep playing :) Really nice analogy here--I like that! Did you get to read the thread on the ClickRyder list about variable treats / rewards versus 1:1 ratios? http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClickRyder/message/67829 Some of the comments: We never dilute the power of the clicker. Each click gets a reinforcer. 1 click = 1 treat. That's the deal you make with the horse. When you click is what changes over time. When a horse is learning, the click is information for him. If we do not treat when we click we confuse the horse. He doesn't know why on one occasion he got a click followed by a reward and at other times he didn't. So, very likely he will get frustrated and concerned about whether this time is one where the reward will appear or not. While training, it's best to stick to 1:1. Always one click - one reward. Otherwise you are diluting (desensitizing) the horse to the sound of the clicker (or whatever marker you are using). Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Question - New Age Vikings
Thanks, Judy. How did you know from looking at the outside of the bit that it was a gag bit? I did read the info when you posted it the other day, but still did not recognize the bit. The gag bit mechanics are obvious from the outside. The headstall is attached to the purchase. The mouthpiece slides on the O ring, and the reins are attached to the shanks. I know not everyone can see this picture, but do you see the wrinkles in the neck of the horse at the withers? A tell-tale sign of ventroflexion and brace in the neck. The lips are also very stretched as you can see in other pictures, also. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] You Know Your Wife Is A Horse Lover...
http://iceryder.net/haroldhorselover.html You know your wife is a horse lover when... by Harold Roy Miller 1. Your shin bones are referred to as cannon bones; 2. Your garden bathtub is full of rice bran, psyllium, vitamins and supplement; 3. RFD-TV is the reason she subscribes to satellite TV; 4. All the movies she rents or buys are about horses; 5. Hey is spelled hay; no is spelled neigh; 6. She's disappointed when she finds out a bridal shower is not a tack sale; 7. She reads horse ads to you at breakfast. at lunch. at supper. at bedtime. 8. She tells you to brush your mane instead of comb your hair; 9. Your spare bedroom is filled up with boxes of old horse magazines; 10. She hears the word install and instantly wonders where her horses are; 11. When asked if she has a picture of her kids she shows photos of her horses; 12. She rearranges the living room furniture every two years and the corrals every two weeks Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Lets all imagine that we'll hear great news this evening. I sure am, I too have had them in my thoughts all day. Ann
RE: [IceHorses] Saddle rack - Skjoni
Neat Karen! I like the continuous mode photos--they really show the gait well! And Cary looks to be a very relaxed, easygoing rider. Thanks. FWIW, it does not take an expensive camera to do that. I used the tiny little Nikon that Cary bought at Wal-Mart (for about $119 I think) to get both the continuous still shots and the little video. I have one that's a little more expensive (a slim little Kodak V610 with 10x optical zoom) and they both have the continuous feature. I can't remember the last time we hauled out the real camcorder. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Definitely praying! Bernadette
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Saddle rack - Skjoni
. What a cute horse Skjoni is:) You can see there is a slight slack in the reins, he's not being forced into gait. He looks good. Cary loves his Skjoni-Pony. I used to have to beg him to ride with me. I'm not a big morning person and sometimes I'll look out on Saturday morning before I'm ready to get rolling and there goes Cary and Skjoni out for a ride - without me! He's a nice pony, and they are a good match. And no, he doesn't have to be forced into gait, not by a long shot. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Hey guys, Raven just called me and said she is on her way to the U of M in MN... Huginn's temp when back up to 105 degrees... he had a reaction to the Medicine this morning... Please send prayers and energy to him, this is really scary for Raven... We're keeping on with the good and positive thoughts. He WILL be fine. He WILL be fine... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
Raven, Oh my gosh. I can't believe it. I finally found Lukka and can't imagine losing her. Please lord,let Huggin be alright. I live close, let me know if you need anything.
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
I will keep them both in my heart.
[IceHorses] Re: What Gait / Show Video 1
I added slo-mo to this page; look at the second video. I put the wrong URL; here's the correct one: http://iceryder.net/videogaitshowdm.html Sorry! The wrong page got a zillion hits today! Judy
Re: [IceHorses] Breed signature gaits
On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:23:33PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: One thing I like to see is the horse being able to change gaits in different situations. I know under saddle it can be annoying for the horse to be constantly shifting gaits, but when they are playing, changing directions, maybe running through different footings, up and down little hills, I think it's an advantage for them to have an array of gaits to pick from - including a canter and a trot or foxtrot. Do others see that as a plus...? yes, absolutely. they are the ones with their feet on the ground; i'd trust the horse to pick an appropriate gait for the terrain a little more than i might trust the rider several feet above. (i have occasionally insisted that stjarni canter all the way arund the ring, incl. the slightly slanty bits, but that's a VERY well-known and controlled situation. on the trail, which he much more used to, i give him a lot more input into our decisions.) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Question - New Age Vikings
Yes - I do hope others will forgive a discussion in which they can't view the photo. I did consider scanning it, but I think there is probably copyright protection. I can see the wrinkles in the neck and the bit attachment - after I carried the book across the room where the light is better. I wonder if the mouthpiece is too wide . I wouldn't think he could pull it so far out of his horse's mouth if it weren't or is that a charecteristic of the gag bit? I've never even seen one except in the pictures you posted. Now that isn't a dropped noseband is it? And the horse somehow is still closing his mouth. Do you suppose he is just a pretty phlegmatic animal? And - one more question. We were taught to ride (ideally) with a straight line between our elbows and the bit, the reins being made of some imaginary elastic substance. This man's hands are pretty high. Is he lifting his horse into gait do you think? Nancy Sturm, traveling and learning (a line from a favorite book)
Re: [IceHorses] Huginn is WORSE
--- Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, Raven just called me and said she is on her way to the U of M in MN... Huginn's temp when back up to 105 degrees... he had a reaction to the Medicine this morning... Please send prayers and energy to him, this is really scary for Raven... My prayers and good energy are going to Raven and Huggin My prayers to the Vets as well so that they can do what is Huggins highest good for his health and healing... Many blessings~ Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Gait / Show Video 1
Ah - that is so much more clear slowed down. Don't laugh you guys, but is the mule more lateral and the white horse more diagonal? Does that make the mule doing a stepping pace? Help me, please. nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Breed signature gaits
Absolutely! I use the ring for training only and would expect my horse to allow me to choose gait, but Hunter is an endurance horse. Except for not letting him go so fast he exhausts himself, I let him choose whatever sensible gait takes us forward safely and quickly. Since endurance horses mainly trot (for miles and miles and miles) his choices would be trot, RW, rack and speed rack. Sometimes when he is beginning to tire, he will choose to canter and I allow that if his heart rate is in a good range - always compete with a heart rate monitor in place. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] tolt-was Bits and Leverage
On Sat, Jun 23, 2007 at 04:37:00AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: If you by your own admission own the only gaited horse you, and everyone else you know has ever seen, then why do you persist on trying to explain gait to people who on any given day could organize a gaited horse ride with upward of 200 riders on horses gaiting, gaiting well, various easy gaits, even the most neanderthal uneducated ignorant redneck knowing exactly what gait their horses and your horse and everyone else's is doing... i have NEVER ONCE EVER tried to explain gait to a single soul on this list, so don't you go putting words in my mouth. i have tried to explain the icelandic word tolt. that is all. and as far as my saying i have the only gaited horse my informants have seen, that may have been my fault for being unclear -- none of the ENGLISH speakers i know are familiar with gaited horses. all of the ICELANDIC speakers (i include here people who are fluent in both languages) ARE familiar with gaited horses. (i presume gudmar petursson, who lives in kentucky, has even seen some gaited horses of non-icelandic breeding.) --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Gait / Show Video 1
http://iceryder.net/videogaitshowdm.html Well, that looks different in slow motion! I wouldn't even dare guess about the mule the first time. The mule looks like she/he starts off pretty pacey, but breaks it up closer to four-beat by the end - maybe moving almost to saddle rack, at least into step pace...? And the palomino doesn't look as lateral as I first thought. If it's step-pace, it's at least getting pretty close to saddle rack. I think I'd call it saddle rack in fact. Definition of saddle rack is that the lateral pairs pick up about the same time, but set down on an even four-beat timing. Is that what others see? I admit it's a LOT easier with my own horses, because I know how they feel! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] poor ugly Dagur
He is so beautiful. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] What gait
How in the world did you get that picture? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] tolt-was Bits and Leverage
On Sun, Jun 24, 2007 at 10:40:37AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: When the fox trotting Icelandic Horses were first identified, the people who are pro-icelandic style training and riding (ISTR), yelled and screamed that the Icelandics only have the four or five gaits and do NOT fox trot, or saddle rack, etc. do they say they all rack? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] What gait
On 29/06/07, Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How in the world did you get that picture? Nancy We just switched around herds tonight, and as a result Solon galloped around rather excited about the whole thing. Wanda
[IceHorses] Re: Questions re: possible purchase
would love to have a horse my size. kind, gated, intelligent, inquisitive. I have loved their attitude since I was at a parelli trainer clinic just south of Paso Robles Hi Maggie, did I ever meet you? were you at Debby's place (or meet her)? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Mounting sequence
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:49:30PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: i'd give him a treat. (not all the time. it's better to be a slot machine than a vending machine, you want them to keep playing :) Really nice analogy here--I like that! Did you get to read the thread on the ClickRyder list about variable treats / rewards versus 1:1 ratios? i don't use a clicker with stjarni; i'm not that oriented towards training him, really. i did use that technique with great success with my dog, roses, but i varied the reinforcers a lot -- sometimes a click (i actually used a voice marker, a high-pitched bingo!) would get her a tasty mouthful, other times a scritch, other times a full-fledged jackpot of treats and petting and praise and love. then i phased out the marker but left in the reinforcers, then varied the reinforcer ratios. this all comes from my (admittedly vague these days) rememberance of pavlov and skinner, but my dog is awfully sweet and well-trained :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: tolt-was Bits and Leverage
On Sat, Jun 23, 2007 at 02:02:47PM -, kim morton wrote: I'm not worried about that at all:), that would be left up to the Icelanders, not us. Language changes, and that is a fact, otherwise who knows what language we all would be speaking. I think we are just talking about which terms WE are going to use here, and how we will define them, not prescribing which terms Icelanders will be using, right? I'm not getting that we are trying to tell Icelanders what to do when it comes to this. *i* have to talk to icelanders to talk about my horse. y'all are some very fine people, but you're not here to tell me your terms for his gaits, and neither is anybody else who has the least clue what they are doing. so it's me and the icelandic speakers here in my little world, and that's where i have to live and communicate. let us also keep in mind that many people new to the icelandic breed are also still dealing with icelanders, for import and information, and knowing what they mean is important for communicating with them. it is not enough for us to say well, we've re-defined this icelandic term to mean this other thing in english; that will only lead to miscommunication. --vicka (about 2500 miles from me to reykjavik; 3000 from here to california)
Re: [IceHorses] Gait Chart
On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 11:36:09AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: what's in the blank spaces in between? are there sharp delineations among the three middle gaits, and if so, what are they? There are infinite variations in all things mammalian. No two horses will gait EXACTLY alike, and when you think of the timing that can vary infinitely between each footfall, that should make sense. Even the gait experts will tell you that there are points in these gray areas where it's hard to assign a name to a gait. As I've quoted many times, Lee Ziegler often talked about how one gait will morph into another, along the gait continuum. I think those two words convey a lot. *nods* i agree. i had a long talk with a native icelandic speaker this morning about it; they call the whole continuum between non-two-beat gaits tolt. i am still working on the half-dozen english terms in use by lee zeigler and this list, but i am comfortable with tolt in the meanwhile. (i do not know why anyone would consider it a synonym for rack; icelandic speakers do not use it that way.) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Breed signature gaits
On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 11:09:36AM -0700, Robyn Hood wrote: I don't agree with that Judy, at least not as phrased. If you mean that Icelandic Horses are rarely seen in the signature breed gait of tolt then yes, I totally agree. But I see a lot of gait in my horses at liberty. i fully expect this response not to make it to the list, but: tolt (as she is used in icelandic) is signatory for icelandics. rack (as they say in english) isn't naturally all that common in iceys. just my observational tuppence. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Questions re: possible purchase
Judy where is debby's-did she host a clinic for Dean Voight (might be misspelled) a few years back? My brother and sister in law took the ranches 2 paint geldings thru it. I was just an observer that time:) the arena was in the creek bottom... Maggie
[IceHorses] Re: Questions re: possible purchase
where is debby's-did she host a clinic for Dean Voight a few years back? I was just an observer that time:) the arena was in the creek bottom... Yes, that's it; in Templeton. Debby is small and blonde and has the cremello stallion. Did you see him? Did you get to ride any of the Icelandics at that time? We did this Icelandic Horse video there: http://iceryder.net/video.html Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
