Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
When we bought Traveller, he was in a pasture with several of that years young ones, he was ten months. One of the others in the pasture died from "black mold" after we brought Traveller home so I felt like wow, he coulda ate the bad hay too! Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
I am gonna ask my vet has he ever seen any botulism from hay! I wonder if they call it something else... Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> And as I write this I am wondering why, just seems field mice etc would >>> accidentally get into the hay... but I have never heard of a single case >>> of >>> botulism. In fact, the only bad hay probs I have ever heard of is one case >>> of a young horse dying from black mold in hay, that was in mid alabama, and >>> then the blister beetle disaster in alfalfa brought in from somewhere up >>> north. It's not JUST botulism that bad hay can cause, Janice. Moldy or decomposing matter can trigger a colic attack. I'm sure many people don't report each and every case of colic since it's so common, and many of the reported cases never get a specific cause assigned. It's usually not fatal, but I still don't want my horses to have it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> Round Bales and botulism from the U of TN >>> http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/horses/pdf/Botulism_1-21-03.pdf Botulism is one risk, but probably the more common risk is plain old colic. Horses work through some cases of colic on their own with no medical intervention, but sometimes it's fatal or requires expensive and risky surgery. I'd bet the number of non-fatal colic cases is much higher than the less common botulism poisoning. While the odds of a full recovery after a colic bout are fairly high, even "plain old colic" isn't something I want my horses having. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> OK - we would call that long straw. It's not used as a feed stuff over >>> here - in fact I think it's only used for thatching. I would have thought >>> it >>> would make a very pretty energy feed, with the grain still attached. Often >>> people here with big horses have problems with choke if they feed straw, >>> though I've never had that with the Icelandics. No, it's not straw at all because it's cut while it's growing and it's still green. Straw is what's left over after the seed heads are cut. Some of the oat hay I've seen doesn't have as much in the way of heads as I thought it would - it was cut before the heads fully formed. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> We use baled hay, probably 70 lb bales, and over the years have found all >>> sorts of dead stuff in bales: snakes, rodents, pieces of a fawn. Wonder >>> why it would be that way here in Oregon and less so where you are. It's >>> very rural here, but you have lots of critters don't you? We've certainly seen a few dead mice in our hay - not many, but a few. And like you, Nancy, I've heard about all sorts of dead critters in our hay in our area. I haven't seen any lately, but I know others have. It happens in NC. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:31:36 -0500, you wrote: >What IS botulism exactly, and what makes it end up in soil? It's caused by Botulinum Toxin (the same one used in Botox!) which is produced by one of the Clostridial bacteria, Clostridia Botulinum. These bacteria are always present in soil, but can thrive under the right conditions (which include inside canned good, or in the middle of big moist hay bales). Here's some info: http://www.medicinenet.com/botulism/article.htm Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the most interesting thing you said about all this Mic is that it is > in SOIL. What IS botulism exactly, and what makes it end up in soil?? >From the Merck Vet Manual http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/50707.htm -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the most interesting thing you said about all this Mic is that it is > in SOIL. What IS botulism exactly, and what makes it end up in soil?? Round Bales and botulism from the U of TN http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/horses/pdf/Botulism_1-21-03.pdf -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the most interesting thing you said about all this Mic is that it is > in SOIL. What IS botulism exactly, and what makes it end up in soil?? > (and not just in old canned goods) (and in the plastic surgeons > office) Here's a good link, Janice http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0396bot.shtml One interesting thing it says is that botulism in most common in AL and GA - states right next to you Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Mic Rushen wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:21:01 -0700, you wrote: > >> What we call oat hay has never been threshed -- it has the seed heads >> still attached. > > OK - we would call that long straw. It's not used as a feed stuff over > here - in fact I think it's only used for thatching. I would have > thought it would make a very pretty energy feed, with the grain still > attached. I like to feed half oat hay (or forage hay -- a hay made from oat, barley and sometimes wheat) and half alfalfa. But the seed heads in an oat hay feeding is much less than the levels of grain many people feed routinely. My horses get more wired and stupid on the alfalfa than they do on the oat hay, for some reason. > Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
the most interesting thing you said about all this Mic is that it is in SOIL. What IS botulism exactly, and what makes it end up in soil?? (and not just in old canned goods) (and in the plastic surgeons office) Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> >square bales are really clean oat hay > > Oat hay? As in, made from oats? I think we would call that straw over > here i thought oats in the green form got some sort of fungus that was toxic. I was allowing Jaspar to graze growing oats in a field we passed one day and a man told me that they could have a fungus when not "processed"? Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> > There was a recent report here of a woman who was killed when two large > bales fell on her - another large bale fatal event. > > Nancy > well if you want to put it in that perspective :) I guess I was almost killed once by a round bale. Stonewall decided on a ride across a strangers field to go scratch hisself on a round bale. Everyone thought it was so funny and cute, and being a ham I just let him go on and on but the dang thing started rolling out from under him and he fell, bruising my leg kinda bad. I still run into people who say they wish they had a photo of the time stonewall started doing the hoochie cootchie with a roll of hay and both of us fell on our arse. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> > Ah, I think we have that country difference cropping up again! Here, > most hay fields are a maximum of 5 acres, most are much smaller. > i think of wales in photos i have seen, endless ENDLESS lush green rolling hills, a cliff, and the sea. Or is that scotland... but thats my impression! I bet when you think Florida you think palm trees and beaches! A rider from alabama came by to see me once and commented "wow, when I think of people living near the gulf of mexico i picture them all living in motel parking lots with palm trees" haha Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> We fed it one year when there was a drought. The horses thrived on > it. But then they seem to thrive no matter what... > > Seems to me I did supplement with alfalfa cubes that year as well... The 2 girls here seem to be thriving on it but I also supplement with some fortified low starch bag forage and supplement with a mineral/vitamin top dressing and BOSS. I think the biggest drawback to oat hay (as long as you get it from someone that knows how to harvest it correctly) is that it is higher in sugar. I had mine analyzed and it came back surprisely complete and not very much higher in sugar - I don't think I'd feed it to an IR horse, though. The thing I like about it is that they eat up the seed heads and the "better part" of the hay and then nibble on the rest until the next feeding time and I have very little waste. -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:21:01 -0700, you wrote: >What we call oat hay has never been threshed -- it has the seed heads >still attached. OK - we would call that long straw. It's not used as a feed stuff over here - in fact I think it's only used for thatching. I would have thought it would make a very pretty energy feed, with the grain still attached. Often people here with big horses have problems with choke if they feed straw, though I've never had that with the Icelandics. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 07/04/2008, Nancy Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the states, straw is what is baled after a combine goes through the oat > field and harvests the grain heads. What remains in mown down and baled for > straw. Oat hay is processed just like any other hay, with the grain heads > intact. We fed it one year when there was a drought. The horses thrived on it. But then they seem to thrive no matter what... Seems to me I did supplement with alfalfa cubes that year as well... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Oat hay? As in, made from oats? I think we would call that straw over here In the states, straw is what is baled after a combine goes through the oat field and harvests the grain heads. What remains in mown down and baled for straw. Oat hay is processed just like any other hay, with the grain heads intact. I have heard it is a little tricky to cut and bale at the right stage of maturity because the grain will actually drop off the stalks if it is baled late and then you really are feeding straw. We planted our hay field once in oats and peas. I can't tell you how much our horses loved that hay. It was a cover crop for the alfalfa that would grow underneath it, so it was a one-time only cutting. Our farmer neighbor instructed us to feed it first because the oat heads would also fall from the bales if it was stored too long, again turning it into straw. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> Oat hay? As in, made from oats? I think we would call that straw over > here What we call oat hay has never been threshed -- it has the seed heads still attached. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Apr 7, 2008, at 3:48 AM, Karen Thomas wrote: I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. > > > That's not what I read last night when I went to review why I have > such strong > feelings against round bales. Anyone who is interested in this topic > might want > to go to www.thehorse.com and do a little research. I find several > mentions of > round bales as potential sources of problems, including being more > commonly > associated with heaves and COPD, even when the round bales are used in > the > pasture. Any feeding set up that requires a horse to have its head elevated, whether muching off a tall round bale or eating flakes from square bales from a feeder, will leave a horse vulnerable to COPD. All hay contains dust, especially if the cutting is done really short and dirt is mixed in with the hay, and if the horse doesn't have its head down (as it evolved to do while grazing), the dust can go right down the airway instead of being flushed out by the nasal secretions. Feeding off the ground and/or mounting hay feeders low IMO is the best protection against developing COPD from hay. > Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:38:38 -0400, you wrote: >My >square bales are really clean oat hay Oat hay? As in, made from oats? I think we would call that straw over here Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> these are interesting things to wonder about i think! vey > interesting! There was a horse that died from botulism in the next county lasy year - I think they tied it to their hay but I'm not positive and I don't know what kind of hay they fed. AT one barn where I kept Doppa in the north part of the state they brought in round bales that regularly had dead animals in it - I wouldn't allow them to feed Doppa that hay - I bought her her own. Wanda's hay was the nicest looking round bale hay I've ever seen and I think she said she'll still picks through it. My square bales are really clean oat hay but I still shake it out as I put it down so I can see exactly what I'm feeding. -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
But honestly, I have never once heard of a dead critter in a bale or roll of hay in all the years I have had horses We use baled hay, probably 70 lb bales, and over the years have found all sorts of dead stuff in bales: snakes, rodents, pieces of a fawn. Wonder why it would be that way here in Oregon and less so where you are. It's very rural here, but you have lots of critters don't you? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 06:28:46 -0500, you wrote: >Just doesnt happen! I wonder if it has something to do with most >hayfields being 50-100 acres of open fields surrounded by lush wooded >habitat that animals would naturally prefer? Ah, I think we have that country difference cropping up again! Here, most hay fields are a maximum of 5 acres, most are much smaller. Maybe has something to >do with things out in the sun with no shade here are treated to >merciless heat even on a nice day? Merciless heat? We don't get that much of it in Wales! ; ) >to me for it to be such a real concern with you Mic, and no one I know >ever hearing of it except from you, that it is for whatever reason a >way lesser threat here? Could well be. It's a widely acknowledged threat here, which is why many people are against feeding haylage at all, and I will only feed it when I know exactly how it's been made. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 06:48:18 -0400, you wrote: > including being more commonly >associated with heaves and COPD, even when the round bales are used in the >pasture. That surprises me as round bales (at least in the UK) are made with higher moisture content which stops the formation of the spores which cause COPD - in fact, vets here recommend the use of haylage instead of hay as a dust-free forage feed. And once again - heaves/COPD are nasty, but rarely fatal unlike botulism. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 06:28:46 -0500, you wrote: > I have never once heard of a dead critter in a bale or roll >of hay in all the years I have had horses I have - I saw a dead fox in a round bale my next door neighbour fed to her horses (with no ill effects whatsoever, sods law - if it was me the whole lot would keel over dead). Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. There was a recent report here of a woman who was killed when two large bales fell on her - another large bale fatal event. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause respiratory >>> problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but improperly baled large >>> bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. That's not what I read last night when I went to review why I have such strong feelings against round bales. Anyone who is interested in this topic might want to go to www.thehorse.com and do a little research. I find several mentions of round bales as potential sources of problems, including being more commonly associated with heaves and COPD, even when the round bales are used in the pasture. Again, not saying absolutely that they shouldn't be used - I'd leave that up to your local vet and Ag agents to advise you one - but we should be very careful to read the risks and make an informed decision for our area. You will need to login to read these but they are free. http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=6010&kw=round%20bales http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10472&kw=round%20bales http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7103&kw=round%20bales Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:42:29 -0600, you wrote: > > >In my experience, small square bales can have just as much mould if > >improperly baled as the large round bales if improperly baled. > > I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause > respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but > improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. > > Mic > which I am sure botulism is a horrible risk in some places? But honestly, I have never once heard of a dead critter in a bale or roll of hay in all the years I have had horses, never seen one, never heard of one! ANd we were at a huge boarding barn feeding both for many years. I did hear of dead rodents found in the grain bin, the large gravity fed one. And as I write this I am wondering why, just seems field mice etc would accidentally get into the hay... but I have never heard of a single case of botulism. In fact, the only bad hay probs I have ever heard of is one case of a young horse dying from black mold in hay, that was in mid alabama, and then the blister beetle disaster in alfalfa brought in from somewhere up north. why no dead critters? Gosh you can only speculate, but its a fact here. Just doesnt happen! I wonder if it has something to do with most hayfields being 50-100 acres of open fields surrounded by lush wooded habitat that animals would naturally prefer? Maybe has something to do with things out in the sun with no shade here are treated to merciless heat even on a nice day? Maybe something to do with how hay is mown, then left for hours to dry in the sun before being baled? (Maybe critters injured have time to crawl away and die?) but seems to me for it to be such a real concern with you Mic, and no one I know ever hearing of it except from you, that it is for whatever reason a way lesser threat here? I just know... look at today, how many of you can say its 6 AM and you have 70 degrees and 97% humidity like it is here. Our biggest problems are insects I think. Speaking of, the formosan termites are finally here, working east from new orleans, they eat houses bricks and all...just what we need! Plus we have fire ants, they get in hay not stored on pallets. But peeling hay off the round bales lets me know when there are fire ants. I really need to feed free choice but cant afford it right now, but honestly free choice it goes so quickly, dont have to worry so much about rot, mold etc. But the botulism thing is a puzzler. I think in another thread people posted about possums, raccoons in their barns etc, I have never seen a possum or raccon on my place and we live on the edge of 36,000 acres of wildlife preserve, but we have foxes, coyotes etc. You have ecological balances that vary place to place, and even in a place from season to season. Some years for instance, we are overrun with rabbits. Then you suddenly see dozens of hawks. No more rabbits. Or in wet areas, people will have hundreds of frogs croaking and say each spring a red tail hawk family comes in, eats them all, and moves on. Also, what causes botulism? Is it an organism in every dead animal? or is it brought in? Like you talked about botulism in the soil. I have never ever heard of that. In our soil we have worms, larvae, fungus in wet soil, never heard of botulism. Botulism is something you get here from eating ancient canned food where the can is swollen,,, so I can only presume things are so much different there... Here we have muck soil, which is swamp and water will take a long time to filter and perc thru it, we have sandy soil like at my house, we had four inches of rain in two hours saturday and not a puddle on the place. We have clay, and loamy soil. But like you see on tv about peat bogs etc. I have never seen anything resembling peat. Our swamps are different. I dont think things stand and rot long enough to turn to peat. They are pretty much peat overnite... these are interesting things to wonder about i think! vey interesting! Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> kirjoitti: > I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause > respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but > improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. But the number of horses that have to be put down because of those respiratory problems is much greater than the number of horses dying of botulism... Krisse
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:42:29 -0600, you wrote: >In my experience, small square bales can have just as much mould if >improperly baled as the large round bales if improperly baled. I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
I used to stack my square bales on pallets in my barn (no hay loft) until the varmints (skunks) decided that was a great place to live (under the hay - between the two layers of the pallets). If I were going to stack my hay on pallets again I would be sure they fit snugly against each other and I would fasten boards vertically (on edge) along the sides so that critters could not get under there. Pat G., in MN
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 06/04/2008, Lynn Kinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We've got pallets ( set 2x5) on the side of the driveway on gravel near > where I park the trailer. The pallet bed is covered with plywood (to > keep out the mice, ground squirrels and soil wetness) and the bales are > stacked there. Plywood? Now that's a good idea! Here, when the bales are moved and the pallets are uncovered, we stack the pallets in a convenient spot, as we like to keep the grass short around the yard (keeps the mosquitoes at bayslightly)... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I notice you listed most of > the folks who commented on this thread except for Laree and me, so I assume > this was directed at us.< Nope, not at all.I was just thanking folks who had remarked on what they do in their own less-than-ideal horse-keeping situations because of circumstances beyond their control. Like Wanda, I often find it very helpful to hear about what other people do, because there's usually a gem to be gleaned (or two) I can use myself. Susan's remark about not wanting people to admonish her for feeding alfalfa is actually what spawned my comment. It got me thinking / hoping people won't be hesitant to tell us about their own situations, even if not typical or what is usually done. Of course, it's good to be reminded to be cautious as well. Thankfully, we seem to have a lot of common sense on this board. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Apr 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Janice McDonald wrote: > . I had to toss > a half roll yesterday from all the rain. But I dont have anywhere to > keep square bales either and they get wet all the way through easier > etc. After 20 years with no covered hay storage and buying only 20-25 bales a month, we've worked out a good routine and I rarely lose a bale. We've got pallets ( set 2x5) on the side of the driveway on gravel near where I park the trailer. The pallet bed is covered with plywood (to keep out the mice, ground squirrels and soil wetness) and the bales are stacked there. When rain is expected we cover the hay with a big, sturdy tarp (Harbor Freight has good inexpensive ones) and lash it to hooks my hubby drilled into the pallets. When one of our big, multiday winter storms is expected we remove a few bales of hay for feeding and store them in the horse trailer so we don't have to undo the tarp and expose the hay in the blowing rain. After the rain passes we take off the tarp. > Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
i think I understood what you meant Karen. sometimes when we talk we forget people might do what we say which could be disastrous where they are. The way it works here pound by pound, sq bales are almost double in price. People don't really use them unless they can buy in bulk and have storage. I have a friend, she buys bales from the feed store, they just jack the price up so high. I just always thought she's so silly, what a nut, then after spending time with her I realized she is single, all alone, no kids or anything, she HAS to feed sq bales and HAS to pay that much, but she has a nice barn to put it in at least! I told my husband about this thread and he said he swears rolls go bad quicker when covered oh well. I had to toss a half roll yesterday from all the rain. But I dont have anywhere to keep square bales either and they get wet all the way through easier etc. i think if i could get rid of a certain bass boat that is never used hay storage around here might improve greatly... Another consideration... our hay supplier has a big dry nice barn, about the size of a football field, I mean huge. He delivers when we call him and keeps our annual supply in mind and available at all times. so if I had to buy a lot of hay at once it would go bad. really bad. But as it is its sorta like HE is our storage barn... Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 06/04/2008, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just remember what may be merely a less than "perfect system" in one area > can be downright dangerous (fatal) in another. In my experience, small square bales can have just as much mould if improperly baled as the large round bales if improperly baled. Just make sure your hay guy knows what he's doing. AND even if he does know what he's doing, sometimes a slight rain shower at the wrong time can cause trouble with a few bales... We will have an old mare come to visit us this summer that suffers terribly from heaves... Improperly baled hay can have awful long term effects... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> One sideline point I'd like to make here: Sometimes, when a subject >>> comes up, it is not as educational to learn how someone manages within a >>> "perfect system", but more helpful to see how someone manages within the >>> less-than-perfect system.For example, Susan mentioned needing to >>> feed alfalfa because it's what is grown in her area, Janice has >>> mentioned she's on sand and never had problems with sand colic, Wanda >>> feeds round bales kept under a tarp. Hearing how everyone manages >>> with what they have is good information I think, because NONE of us have >>> "perfect systems".And I hope we will continue to report on how we >>> make things work without fear of lectures or condemation. It's good >>> information. Just remember what may be merely a less than "perfect system" in one area can be downright dangerous (fatal) in another. I notice you listed most of the folks who commented on this thread except for Laree and me, so I assume this was directed at us. After we explained why we don't use round bales, we both suggested that list members check with their local ag agents since regional climates, soil types and grass species may come into play. If what Laree and I mentioned as documented hazards in our area don't apply to other areas, that's fine, but at least people new to horse-owning will have an idea of the "why's" behind our reasons - otherwise, they may not even know to ask the questions in the first place.If I remember, new-to-farming Virginia mentioned that she'd heard that round bales aren't best for horses, and I hope she now knows some background for why some people don't use them. I certainly hope that sharing information doesn't constitute lectures or condemnation. Virginia, I certainly apologize if you took what I said as a lecture, and I'm sure you'll make the best decision for your horses and your area. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 06/04/2008, Kaaren Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We did this two years in a row & then didn't have any invaders for 3 years. > We had to do it again this year. We had a badger move in a couple of years ago and basically our gophers are gone...but their holes are still an issue. The badger leaves us alone and we leave him alone... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 05/04/2008, Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One sideline point I'd like to make here: Sometimes, when a subject > comes up, it is not as educational to learn how someone manages within a > "perfect system", but more helpful to see how someone manages within the > less-than-perfect system. Isn't that the truth? Some of the ideas I take away from this list are like absolute gold. Has anyone used a 'scarifier"?? Seems to me it might help some of our tired pastures that are filled with gopher holes... http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/FT/servlet/com.deere.u90785.productcatalog.frontier.view.servlets.ProductServlet?tM=FT&pNbr=BoxBladesHydraulicScarifier Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Kaaren Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Had to tack $20.00 onto our hay bill< > > Out here in Calif., our timothy hay went up in price in TWO MONTHS $4.00 per > 80lb compresed bale to $24.00(yes, TWENTY FOUR DOLLARS!!!) per bale. > > Oat hay is now $19.95 for a standard bale. ...And I was upset because our last load of Rye grass cost $17.50 a bale!!! Of course, the bales are about 140 lbs. We get Oat hay from a local guy and it is only $5 a bale and the horses like it best!?! Go figure... The Oat is in small bales though (2 wire, maybe 70 lb bales) Ferne Fedeli No. California (Mendocino County)
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Thanks to everyone who commented on the feeding of round bales. Wanda -- oh man, that's some gorgeous looking hay you've got there. Whatever you and your hay man are doing, keep doing it. It works! I see a lot of people feeding their horses with round bales by me. I think this is because so many of the hay "farmers" in our area are not full-time farmers, and work full time jobs elsewhere. They do their hay as they can around their real jobs. Putting hay up in small squares presents a challenge, in this respect, because it's so much more work-intensive. Even if they have a kick baler and can bale the hay alone, they still need help putting it up in the barn off the wagon, and sometimes they run out of wagons before getting it all off the field before the rain comes. . . .Also, many of those still "farming" near us are getting up there -- in their 50's, 60's, 70's. Their sons and daughters have left the farm and it's getting harder for them to lift and deal with hundreds of 50+ lb. bales. If they bale with round bales, the hay is handled all by mechanical means (tractors). So, while I can still find small squares and probably will for a few more years, I think I may eventually have to switch to round bales simply because that is what I see a lot of the hay farmers near us doing. . . One sideline point I'd like to make here: Sometimes, when a subject comes up, it is not as educational to learn how someone manages within a "perfect system", but more helpful to see how someone manages within the less-than-perfect system.For example, Susan mentioned needing to feed alfalfa because it's what is grown in her area, Janice has mentioned she's on sand and never had problems with sand colic, Wanda feeds round bales kept under a tarp. Hearing how everyone manages with what they have is good information I think, because NONE of us have "perfect systems".And I hope we will continue to report on how we make things work without fear of lectures or condemation. It's good information. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:14:49 -0700, you wrote: >The wrapped bales you generally see are sileage which is for cattle. When >they do hayage for horses - the principle is similar but the hay is dried >for longer than it is with sileage and then wrapped in plastic. That's what we use, ir works really well. Dust free, no mould (hey you North Americans there's a U in that word!!! ; ))) and the horses do really well on it. We have contractors in to make it on our own fields so we know it's weed free, and not cut too short (it's when you get soil etc in the bales, not just dead creatures, that you can get botulism). Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
those marshmellows dont work so hot here. too humid, they sweat. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Hi Dee >>Does anyone have experience with this method of storage re: mold issues and horse-particular issues? The wrapped bales you generally see are sileage which is for cattle. When they do hayage for horses - the principle is similar but the hay is dried for longer than it is with sileage and then wrapped in plastic. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>>Around here (Connecticut) I see a lot of "Marshmallow" round bales out in fields. These are bales that have been sealed in some form of shrinkwrap white plastic. Does anyone have experience with this method of storage re: mold issues and horse-particular issues? That is the way hay is stored in Iceland... the landscape is dotted with wrapped bales. Perhaps this works best in colder climates? Jacki
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
wow. man. that sure is nice and green! our tarp is so heavy one person can't move it. It is a tarp truck drivers use to carry what they are hauling. My husbands truck driver friend gave it to us because he bought a new one. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> This hay is from a hay field that is mostly grass with a tiny bit of >>> alfalfa >>> in it. There is very little mould as it seems our hay guy knows when to >>> cut >>> and bale it. We're very happy with it. That wouldn't work here. I'm not saying that it won't work for YOU, Wanda, where you live, but I wouldn't do it here. I just say that people should check with their local Ag Agents. I think there are too many local/regional differences for us to discuss meaningfully here, given our wide range of geographies and climates. Hay has to be COMPLETELY covered here, or it will mold, get muddy, become a haven for wild animals to nest in...you name it. Do you have EPM up there? I think it's EPM - I get it and another disease confused sometimes - that is transmitted by body fluids of wild animals, particularly raccoons. We keep our horse feeds inside a closet in the barn, stored in tightly covered barrels, and hay inside an old barn, and we still watch for animals to try to set up homesteads. So far, our barn cats seem to do a good job of protecting the barns from rats and other small critters...I hope the influx of coyotes doesn't upset that balance. As far as mold - it's not just the issue of the hay molding during the baling/curing process here. If you put a big bale out and it gets rained on in the field, you have to be concerned about mold developing then too - not to mention it just getting muddy and gross, and wasting a lot, plus worrying about the horses eating contaminated hay. It could be that you don't have to worry so much about mold year-round, since it's SO cold where you are. I don't know. We can get mold here, even when it's just barely above freezing. (I don't think we can below freezing, but honestly, I've never thought about it. I just know we can get mold in the winter.) I know you said that you unroll the hay and feed sections, but I haven't heard of many people taking the time to do that. About 99% of the round bales I see are just plopped out in the pasture, uncovered - used because they take less time to feed, and because, per pound, round bales are cheaper. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> When they build highways or do upgrades they always seed the ditches > with grass and alfalfa. You can make an application to the RM to be > allowed to cut a certain portion of the ditch. AND yes, road kill can > often end up in a bale if you aren't careful. I've seen some people > walk the ditch first and pic up any litter, etc...before they cut, > but some don't... wow. thats unreal wanda! janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 02/04/2008, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't know what you mean...? What is roadside grass and why is it more > prone to dead critters? Do you Canadians literally bale your highway right > of way grass? I've never seen that done in the USA... When they build highways or do upgrades they always seed the ditches with grass and alfalfa. You can make an application to the RM to be allowed to cut a certain portion of the ditch. AND yes, road kill can often end up in a bale if you aren't careful. I've seen some people walk the ditch first and pic up any litter, etc...before they cut, but some don't... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
oh man, when I drive by endless acres of mowed lawn all I can think of is what a waste. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 4/2/08, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i think you can get mold, critters etc from square bales! > > > Sure you can. It's just that mold, etc., is easier to find in the smaller > bales. yes, but we peel our large rolls so it works the same. I bet wanda has less incidence of critters and mold due to nothing, not even paramecium, can live in those temps without vodka. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> We dont do any roadside grasses here, that kinda threw me too, altho my >>> husband and I often discuss why doesnt the DOT allow hay people to mow >>> the right of ways instead of tax dollars paying people to do it, would >>> be good for hay people and horses too etc, and then we mused that well, >>> maybe people would throw horrible things out of car windows that would >>> be in it! Even drugs or anything! Some of my friends and I have joked that's one measure of being a horseperson: when you drive down the interstate, estimating how many bales you could get off the median And golf courses...? Don't get me started. What a waste of perfectly good pasture and hay fields... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
i dont think I have ever seen or heard of fescue here. In south GA they have a hay called "World Feeder" have you heard of that? Supposed to be perfect nutrition... we dont have alicia either. we have tifton 85, tifton 9 (horses hate it), coastal, and perennial peanut, some times clover but it can be sandy. Anything else is shipped in and scares me, like alfalfa, so expensive and caused the blister beetle kill. i think any time you bring in hay from far off you bring in non-native non-indigenous bugs, which is all I need, some new bugs. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
i think you can get mold, critters etc from square bales! Sure you can. It's just that mold, etc., is easier to find in the smaller bales. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
here, it seems desirable for the bales to be packed tighter, maybe less humid air?? Also, there has to be so many hours drying time after a cutting. If dew falls on it or God forbid, rain, its usually sold as cow hay by reputable growers. But I have had some sell it to me cheap and say "its gonna go bad quick, it was damp when I rolled it" so we have to be aware of that. We dont do any roadside grasses here, that kinda threw me too, altho my husband and I often discuss why doesnt the DOT allow hay people to mow the right of ways instead of tax dollars paying people to do it, would be good for hay people and horses too etc, and then we mused that well, maybe people would throw horrible things out of car windows that would be in it! Even drugs or anything! Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> i wonder if your hays are higher in sugar and carbs than ours and thus >>> tend more toward mold. I was surprised to learn our top quality hay is >>> considered inferior in a lot of paces--- coastal bermuda. I don't know, Janice, but I DO suspect there are differences from grass to grass. That's why I say it's probably best if people talk to local experts. We buy mostly coastal for our horses, but it's grown just east of here. All we can easily grow here in our soil is fescue. I can't remember seeing much mold in coastal, but fescue is certainly prone to mold. I don't know if it's the difference in sugars, etc., or the time of the year when it's cut, or if other factors come into play. Coastal is typically cut here in the heat of the summer, so even if there's some humidity, the temps dry the cut grass before it's baled. Fescue is mostly cut in late April - very early June, or in the fall, when the nights still get a little coolish, thus more dew in the mornings. Because of the difference in when coastal is baled, coastal bales are usually packed tighter - I assume that's because the risk of mold is lower, for whatever reason. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
yes Laree, I guess even a small little dead field mouse or baby rabbit nest uncovered by the hay tractor could cause botulism as bad as a big critter! I get flying roaches in mine sometimes, I aint kidding! My hay man stores his in a huge barn, and when he delivers my chickens have a field day all over it for a while. one time a roach flew out and landed between Tivar's eyes and without thinking I slapped the heck out of him. he did not even flinch, he musta felt it land! I bet he was thinking "wow that was a supersize gnat" haha. but he seems most amused when I throw him hay and a roach flies out and lands on me and I run screeching and flapping my arms. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 4/2/08, Laree Shulman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > We use round bales and personally I would never go back to using > > square. We don't free feed though, we pick through and feed > > individual portions just as we would if we were still feeding square. > > > I think that's key with any hay and that's how I've seen round bales > used successfuly. yes, and important to remember that while some horses, like my Jas, will not touch hay that is the least "bad", even with that white powder everyone says is harmless, some horses, like my icelandics, will eat it. will eat almost anything. When I see Jaspar standing apart and not eating the free choice roll they have for turnout, I walk out there and check on it. last time I went out there when that happened I found it had briars and oak leaves and small limbs in the middle. Last time I bought from that guy! but we were desperate at the time. Things so far, knock on wood, are better this time. High prices are one thing and make me angry, nervous, have to do without in other areas, but last year there was a couple of months where we were desperately searching high and low for ANY hay, and that was a bad bad feeling. we finally had to go with friends and haul some in from middle GA. janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> Personally I would never use bales that were from roadside grass. I don't know what you mean...? What is roadside grass and why is it more prone to dead critters? Do you Canadians literally bale your highway right of way grass? I've never seen that done in the USA... >>> We're lucky that the guy that does our bales knows what he's doing and >>> we generally have very little mould. We had more trouble with mould in >>> our square bales and it was actually our square bales where we found the >>> odd dead snake now and then. But most people simply put the round bales in the pasture, and don't go through it. I think the odds of your finding a problem with round bales is slimmer, whereas most people see every flake they feed from a square bale, including mold and other "bonuses". Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
i think you can get mold, critters etc from square bales! But every time we ever talk about hay on these lists it always comes down to regional differences... Like here I would be terrified of alfalfa. So many horses die from it, a whole herd in a matter of hours in Birmingham just relatively so close to here, from Blister beetles... that was so sad. If square bales were cost feasible etc I would probably feed them, but most providors around here do round bales and square you have to either go pick up in alabama or georgia or have delivered and it costs too much. I have had square bales at times and seems they went bad quicker than round, but maybe we bought too much at once. I wish I had a nice big barn to store things in! When we brought nasi home from Texas she sent three bales of hay with him, telling us how her hay man had received awards for his high quality hay, some award given out each year for best producer of top quality hay. we were astounded because to us it looked like cow hay. But when we told her he would be eating coastal hay at our house she acted like ooohhh no he was being sent into hay siberia :) so all I can figure is soil nutrients, variety, all that? I dont know, it is a mystery. But maybe it just LOOKED bad and was nutritionally better. When there was a shortage last year we were forced to buy from a commercial retail store. I called and he said he had hay, but when I got there he said the hay was brown, that it was good, but just not pretty and green like coastal hay, and that was because it had a lot of bahia in it. He said a man had returned ten bales because his horses wouldnt eat it so he would let me have it for 2.00 a bale if I wanted. My horses ate it like pigs! so i guess you cant tell by appearances. our hay man is the best around here. He is the only hay man around here I have ever seen or even heard of that has each cutting analyzed and gives you a print out of nutritional analysis along with the bill. I treasure him. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> I have always heard that round bales are more prone to have things (like >>> dead critters) in them and are packed tighter than square bales. This >>> combination can lead to the organism that causes botulism. And they are so much more prone to mold. If a "square" bale (that's what the farmers call them here, even if they are actually rectangular) is slightly damp in the center, it's more likely to dry before it molds, but the depth of the round bales scare me - hard for air to get into the depths to dry it out. Maybe it's not as big a deal with some grasses in some climates, but our fescue hay is always cut when it's humid, with a chance of thunderstorms. Before I'd feed it blindly on the recommendation of the list, I'd check with some regional experts to be sure. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
we dont feed free choice round bales, it makes some too fat. It is more work, but worth the money savings to us to peel or gather up armfuls of hay twice a day. Then in my pasture with skimpy almost non existent grass, we put out a whole roll and then give them turnout into that pasture and I think it gives them a false impression of "grazing " :) You have to have a tractor with a hay fork to move it around. A pretty heavy duty tractor too, cause rolls of hay are usually supposed to be 1500 pounds. One way to have rolls without a tractor tho is if you know exactly where you are gonna put it when you bring it home, put a rope around it before its loaded and when you get home tie the rope to a tree and drive away, it will roll off, or my husband will climb up and shove it while I pull the ropes :) Another thing, with rolls, they last longer if you have a hay ring, not so much waste, and last longer if you store them in a barn or like us, under a heavy tarp, resting on wooden pallets. Where we place it close to the paddocks for easier access to taking it to the paddocks at feeding, we sit it on a pallet there also. When you first start feeding free choice, if you do that, it will worry you because they stand and eat 24/7, but once they learn it isnt gonna be taken away they will leave it. anyway. Thats how we do rolls. we use about one a month for 4 big horses, two icies and a donkey. All are fat except jas and he is now normal but is recovering from a teeth issue. Free choice hay is good for cleaning sand out of them. My horses live in deep loose sand and have never had sand colic. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 4/2/08, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> I don't have my horses home yet so I haven't purchased hay yet but I'm > afraid of round bales--aren't they the ones that can sicken a horse? V > > > I won't feed them, and I don't know many people in my area who will. They > aren't recommended for horses by vets and the agriculture agents here. i wonder if your hays are higher in sugar and carbs than ours and thus tend more toward mold. I was surprised to learn our top quality hay is considered inferior in a lot of paces--- coastal bermuda. mold is just a way of life here... when we peel every day we see the moldy spots and throw it out but if you feed free choice it seems the horses will find a way around the moldy parts. Also it has to be rolled really tight so moisture cant get to the inside until they eat their way to it. Also, here you dont want to get the kind wrapped in plastic sheeting, you need the kind that is wrapped in this stuff thats like shredded cellophane wrapping. we have cow hay here at 20 a roll and what it is is like peanut hay, not perennial but actual, full of sand you know, and old hay, last years hay, or hay with lots of dirt and sticks etc in it. i do know this tho, if your horses are used to something and it changes, colic risk goes way up! Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> We use round bales and personally I would never go back to using > square. We don't free feed though, we pick through and feed > individual portions just as we would if we were still feeding square. Even with square bales, I shake out every flake to make sure there is nothing hiding in there and to shake out as much dust as possible. The hay I got this year was very nice - really clean but it still gets dusty by this time of the year sitting in my barn for several months. Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
> We use round bales and personally I would never go back to using > square. We don't free feed though, we pick through and feed > individual portions just as we would if we were still feeding square. I think that's key with any hay and that's how I've seen round bales used successfuly. -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On 02/04/2008, Laree Shulman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have always heard that round bales are more prone to have things > (like dead critters) in them and are packed tighter than square bales. > This combination can lead to the organism that causes botulism. Personally I would never use bales that were from roadside grass. To me, the possibility of road kill would be too great. We're lucky that the guy that does our bales knows what he's doing and we generally have very little mould. We had more trouble with mould in our square bales and it was actually our square bales where we found the odd dead snake now and then. We use round bales and personally I would never go back to using square. We don't free feed though, we pick through and feed individual portions just as we would if we were still feeding square. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > .> We only give them exactly 9 leafs of hay for 9 horses and safe the > extras leafs from the bales. Most of our bales of hay some have 12 to 14 > leafs of hay in a bale of hay. < I have always heard that round bales are more prone to have things (like dead critters) in them and are packed tighter than square bales. This combination can lead to the organism that causes botulism. Just a few months back there was an article in either the USIHC magazine or Tolt News about someone that lost a horse to botulism and it was traced back to her Round bale hay - in the article she said she later found out that it isn't a good idea to use round bales for horses. At one barn I boarded at they tried round bales for awhile - had severl colics - quit the round bales and the colic stopped. The round bales were from the same farm as the square bales they switched to. At another farm I was at they fed round bales but they pulled the hay from the bales - filled a big muck bucket and then put that amount out to the horses (very work intensive but cheaper) They kept the hay covered. They never had a problem but that way they were carefully going through the hay and culling anything that didn't look right. Another farm used round bales that they baled themselves - they would store them in their hay loft (it was huge) Roll them out across the floor and pull chunks from it to feed the horses in their stalls. Personally, I wouldn't use round bales because they are work intensive to do it right and there is more concern about botulism but as you can tell, there are folks that do it and have had success with it. I think Karen had a good idea about calling your Ag Ext agent and your vet for recommendations Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
>>> I don't have my horses home yet so I haven't purchased hay yet but I'm afraid of round bales--aren't they the ones that can sicken a horse? V I won't feed them, and I don't know many people in my area who will. They aren't recommended for horses by vets and the agriculture agents here. I don't know - maybe it's just a regional thing. Maybe it has to do with our humidity, I don't know. I could get hay in round bales a lot cheaper than square bales, but I've always been told not to feed round bales to horses for the risk of mold and other contaminants. I do know a couple of people who feed them, but they've built covered sheds to feed them from, and they have big buildings to keep them stored under to prevent them from getting wet and molding. And of course, they are much harder to handle. They are called "cow hay" around here. I'd check with your local vet and agriculture agent if I were you. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.4/1355 - Release Date: 4/1/2008 5:37 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:41:02 -0400, you wrote: >Is there a lot of waste? Not if you use a feeder for them - if you put them on the ground and it's muddy then there is a fair bit of waste. If it's not muddy the horses tend to clear it all up. How do you >move them around? Do you use a tractor? Yes, pretty impossible without unless you take the whole bale apart and feed it in bits, in which case it's much easier to use small bales in the first place. What about when they get rained >on? No problem, except for mud. Can you break one open take handfuls off to feed, or does the whole >thing become rather unmanageable once opened? Square bales are easy (comes off in chunks like a small square bale), round bales not so easy (unwraps like a giant Swiss roll). Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Hi Renee, we've been feeding round bales now for a couple of years. We stack them on wooden pallets and cover them the moment they come home. Depending on where they are in the pile there may be some wastage, but overall they stay nice and green over winter (I should take a pic of the one we just opened). Our bales are about 1000 lbs and we need the tractor to move them to the feeding area, however, once we have two or three there we (meaning Kevin) can usually push them into place by hand in the exact spot that we feed from (but it's on a small incline). Depends on the bale as far as how much waste there is. But we keep a separate pile for anything moldy and pic through the bale fairly carefully. Most bales don't have much mold - but we have a hay guy that's just excellent. We also pull bales from the part of the field with very little alfalfa...mostly grass...so that's a bonus. We love them, and probably wouldn't go back to square. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Pat Grimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Renee, > > I feed with round bales... > I don't have my horses home yet so I haven't purchased hay yet but I'm afraid of round bales--aren't they the ones that can sicken a horse? V
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Hi Renee, I feed with round bales... When I first started feeding with them I would have my neighboring farmer deliver one whenever I needed one. His tractor was not capable of tipping them up on end though and it would take at least three of us to do so. I would then roll the round bale feeder next to it and tip over so that it would contain the bale enough to keep from having it used for "bed and bathroom". There is still some wastage, but the difference in cost more than offset that. I have never worried about the rain since they would always clean up a bale before it would have a chance to mold, and lots of horses like their hay moistened anyway. I suppose you could "unroll" it in portions to feed as needed but I think it would be easier to just restrict their access to it. If you know about how long it takes them to consume the portion of hay that they are alotted now, to maintain their body weight, you could go by that for initial feeding access time and adjust as neccessary. The bales vary alot in size, and, with 9 horses here, the smallest bales generally last about 3 days and the largest bales last 6 or 7 days. I try to feed straight grass hay and do not restrict their access and some of them are definitely overweight (let's say fat). I also do not supplement their hay with any grain or sweet feed unless I am using it to feed meds and such. Hope this helps... Pat G., in MN Oh, and I always keep a supply of small squares on hand just in case I have no one to help me place a round bale or if I need to keep a horse in a stall for a while or if the weather is not condusive to feeding outdoors.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: .> We only give them exactly 9 leafs of hay for 9 horses and safe the extras leafs from the bales. Most of our bales of hay some have 12 to 14 leafs of hay in a bale of hay. < What does a leaf of your hay weigh, or one of your bales? I'm curious how much everyone is feeding for maintainence Hi, I think our bales weight anywhere from50 to 60lbs or even 70lbs, unless I am getting older and can not lift that much. It all depends on the leafs of hay some are 3-4" and some are 8 or 9" thick and some feel like a feather and some feel like it weights a ton. So far no one is loseing weight. They are starting lose their winter coat. Anne - - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Janice, (and anyone else that feeds round bales) I have been thinking of getting some round bales this year. It seems they are getting to be easier to find as they require less handling and work for the farms putting hay up. I've never fed using round (or big square) bales before, so I have lots of questions: Is there a lot of waste? How do you move them around? Do you use a tractor? What about when they get rained on?Can you break one open take handfuls off to feed, or does the whole thing become rather unmanageable once opened? I'm going to call my hay man tonight and see what the scoop is for this year. . . I'm dreading what he might tell me. : ( I've been spoiled by him these last 5 years. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
.> We only give them exactly 9 leafs of hay for 9 horses and safe the extras leafs from the bales. Most of our bales of hay some have 12 to 14 leafs of hay in a bale of hay. < What does a leaf of your hay weigh, or one of your bales? I'm curious how much everyone is feeding for maintainence -- Renee M.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: i was thinking... probably people who feed a forage that has to be shipped in from far off, like alfalfa is here, I bet it would skyrocket. But my hay comes from about 40 miles away. Janice -- We buy 100 every other month. Back in Sept we started to buy 50 bales extra for the winter months. About Oct we purchase 300 bales of good grassy hay. THen in Dec we got another 150 bales more just to be on the safe side. We ended up with almost 400bales of hay for the winter. Now we are down to less than 200bales. We only give them exactly 9 leafs of hay for 9 horses and safe the extras leafs from the bales. Most of our bales of hay some have 12 to 14 leafs of hay in a bale of hay. We are set until first cutting.. Once the mud is gone we will give them one meal of grass. But we will start them out slow with only 15min of new fresh grass. Anne
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
i was thinking... probably people who feed a forage that has to be shipped in from far off, like alfalfa is here, I bet it would skyrocket. But my hay comes from about 40 miles away. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
