RE: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
I really think they do better if they go out alone early and often. I take my horses hiking alone from a very young age. They are often have a short comfort zone distance at first, so we gradually get farther and farther away and I try to go just a short distance outside the comfort zone each time as the distance they're willing to go increases. Two days ago, I took my four year old Fjord to the Ford Fun Fest at Blowing Rock, NC. Last year she got to get used to being in a stall and I just walked her around the facility and let her hang out in the arena while the other horses practiced around her. I sat on her and let her follow another horse around and easy 1/2 mile trail. This year we participated in a Natural Horsemanship clinic. One helpful note-Tyra lives with 7 other horses and the Belgian gelding often runs up behind her and bites her butt. At the clinic, she was apprehensive when the others came up behind her, and she threatened to kick. We practiced a lot with horses slowly coming up behind her, then backing off. We rode in the front, middle, and back. We rode between two columns of horses and then we were in the column and others rode by us. In the arena, we followed a cart and then let her lead the cart. I lead her about a mile 1/2 up to a mansion that's a tourist attraction, so she could see the people, strollers, horse-drawn cart, etc. and then rode her back. We meet other horses but she didn't worry too much about wanting to follow, because we'd done so much work alone. We finished the week with a 2 hr. ride to lake and back with a cart and 5 other Fjords. She was awesome!! I'm going to take my 2 year old Icelandic, Roka to the Biltmore mansion and introduce her to the same things. Cherie in NC Lilja Roka, Icelandics; Tyra, Fjord, Zeke the zedonk Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 12:00 AM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
We finished the week with a 2 hr. ride to lake and back with a cart and 5 other Fjords. She was awesome!! She certainly was. Well done! Nancy IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We finished the week with a 2 hr. ride to lake and back with a cart and 5 other Fjords. She was awesome!! She certainly was. Well done! Nancy well tht would impress me! What did the five others do? Were they ponied with the cart or ridden??' Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
I take my horses hiking alone from a very young age. They are often have a short comfort zone distance at first, so we gradually get farther and farther away and I try to go just a short distance outside the comfort zone each time as the distance they're willing to go increases. We like to do that too - for some reason, Cary gets a particular kick out of doing that, and that's great. It's just another way of breaking it down into pieces for them. In the arena, we followed a cart and then let her lead the cart. I lead her about a mile 1/2 up to a mansion that's a tourist attraction, so she could see the people, strollers, horse-drawn cart, etc. and then rode her back. We meet other horses but she didn't worry too much about wanting to follow, because we'd done so much work alone. That's such a pretty place to ride...and usually so COOL. I'm jealous. It sounds like fun, and sounds like she did great. We've been out rearranging the round pen panels and making some adjustments to the stalls today, in preparation for Vinnie and Bart's arrival. I'm looking forward to them coming, but it's pretty hot out for this kind of work. I'd much rather been out riding, especially at Moses Cone... Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
The other horses were seasoned trail horses and were ridden. oh. what a concept :) Its rare you see five of those all in one place! Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
Shall I compile all of the suggestions and put them on a page? It would be fine with me. and if anyone has any more suggestions, please feel free to speak up. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
Shall I compile all of the suggestions and put them on a page? That would be great Judy. I am looking forward to using this checklist as I work with Cali. Thanks, Jacki
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
I've been thinking about what I would hope to find if I responded to an ad for a well-started young horse. I can't remember ever actually finding this horse, but an off-track racing quarter horse came closest to filling the bill and he had no training between leaving the track and the day I bought him out of a nice grassy pasture about six months later. He'd obviously had some very nice early training. horse leads well he can be tied safely he can be groomed everywhere he can be clipped he walks willingly into the washrack he can be bathed he can be blanketed he can be sprayed with grooming products his feet can be easily handled by anyone he walks willingly into the trailer he walks willingly into a stall and is comfortable there he can be saddled and bridled with no fuss I would prefer that he had been ridden bitless or with a mild simple snaffle - anything beyond that would set up warning flags he should stand quietly for mounting and dismounting he can be ridden in both directions of the ring at a walk trot and canter, on the correct lead he stops without fussing from the walk and maybe from the trot he will back a short distance ( just a couple of steps) quietly and willingly he has nice upward and downward transitions between gaits he will do some elementary leg-yielding it would be nice if I could open the gate from his back I don't actually care if he has ever been on trail, but if he has, then I'd like him to be able to do all the things on Karen's trail list. I'd almost rather he had not been out if there were a chance he had a bad experience that meant un-teaching a negative reaction. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:01:25 -0400, you wrote: Basic trail skills (bitless or with a mild snaffle/loose rein) One thing I would add - Will the horse go past the gate to home without making a fuss or following another horse? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Will the horse go past the gate to home without making a fuss or following another horse? Mic I think that's a good one...but I don't necessarily put a timetable on it. A few horses seem fine to walk out alone from the get-go, but others need time to build confidence. Some never really seem to get used to it. I DO make mental notes of that preference, because I think that's a good clue about which horses will eventually be compatible with which owners. When it comes down to it, I don't know that any horse prefers to go out without another horse. A few may not have a strong preference. Tivar and Sina seem as confident about going out along as any horses I've met. Skjoni SEEMS confident and never complains about going out alone, but even Cary (not always the most sensitive and aware horseman) says that he's most relaxed when he's got another horse with him. It's not that he obviously shows any unhappiness, but Cary notices that he's a tad faster when he walks, and that he's slightly on-guard, looking around more when he's alone. I think that's an Icelandic stoicness thing. One thing I've noticed, and this may not hold true forever, but the babies that have been born here - the ones who have had lots of human interaction - seem to have more confidence about leaving the herd to go with a human. Some of the ones who had less early attention may do it compliantly, but not exactly willingly.I guess I think there's an innate personality/confidence factor that makes a horse willing to do it, but that early handling definitely seems to have an effect too. Then of course, there's the confidence that comes from good experiences and maturity. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
I think that's a good one...but I don't necessarily put a timetable on it. Because riding alone is one of the joys of my life, right along side riding with good friends, I DO put a timetable on it. I really think they do better if they go out alone early and often. Tosca would probably be happier with the company of other horses and I can feel a little tension in her body as we leave the farm alone, but the minute she's out on trail we actually have a lot more fun because she can focus on me and I on her. It's bonding time. Hunter is terrific out alone and was from the day I bought him. It's the only time we get to take advantage of his flying flat walk. I truly find myself riding along thanking God that at 66, I have horses that are safe and fun to ride without company. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My third checklist: VERY early riding basics. Again, what did I forget? These are great checklists, Karen - thanks for putting them together - I am saving them. I don't have anyone young ones now but I think all horses should be reviewing their lessons periodically. -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley I ride ponies because heart is not measured in hands. - Steve Edwards
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Because riding alone is one of the joys of my life, right along side riding with good friends, I DO put a timetable on it. I really think they do better if they go out alone early and often. Tosca would probably be happier with the company of other horses and I can feel a little tension in her body as we leave the farm alone, but the minute she's out on trail we actually have a lot more fun because she can focus on me and I on her. It's bonding time. Good points. I really don't think we are that far apart in what we're doing. You just have the advantage of being able to train her for you and you alone, since you have no plans to sell her. You and I both know what you're doing is a perfectly acceptable training plan for her - unless I'm missing something!IF I had a crystal ball, and I KNEW that 1) we will indeed sell Runa someday soon, AND 2) a Nancy-type rider would be her next owner, I'd be doing things closer to doing the way you're doing things. It's just that I know that in our area, there are also good homes of the Alex/Gat genre (or more personally, the Emily/Thunder model of 20 years go) - people who want the family horse who might be called upon to do a little casual, fun-type kid's showing, but basically they want the all-round safe, sensible pleasure/trail horse, who can safely and dependably do a little of everything. Since I think there are good homes of that variety too, I also want our horses to know a little more of the more traditional type stuff - including canter leads, being able to show all the gaits on the rail, etc. (Not traditional in the Icelandic sense!) I just wish I had that crystal ball, but since I don't, I try to keep a variety of activities in front of my horses. Regardless, the basics I think the horses need to know are pretty much the same - it comes down to the priorities of each type tasks they learn, and in which order they learn things. Meaning: that if you still own Tosca and I still own Runa next year, I wouldn't be surprised if Runa might be a little ahead of Tosca on canter cues, a little low-level jumping, etc., but that Tosca will be ahead of Runa on trail skills...and that's perfectly okie-dokie with me, and probably with you too. It's not that one plan is better than the other - it all depends on the needs of the rider who has the horseand any way you slice it, the traditional Icelandic showing model hasn't produced horses with the best of skills in either direction. I don't believe that more lift and more speed are the prime goals of either of our training programs. Another way of looking at it is, that if you and I were to suddenly switch horses six months from now, Runa for Tosca, I'd like to think that within a short settling out/adjusting time, Runa could pick up Tosca's current role for you, and Tosca could fairly quickly become a Thunder/Gat type horse for the Emily/Karen and the Alex/Virginias of the world. (I have a feeling that there might have been a similar Annie/Laree model a few years ago too...) When the basics are there, there should be no retraining needed - just some tuning/enhancements of their specific skillsets. A good all-around horse is a good all-around horse. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
These are great checklists, Karen - thanks for putting them together - I am saving them. I don't have anyone young ones now but I think all horses should be reviewing their lessons periodically. No problem. I'm also hoping to get feedback for anything I've missed. Of course, we'll each have slightly different priorities, and that's expected. I also hope maybe the buyers of the list can work backwards from my checklists - maybe these lists will jog their memories for things to look for or ask about when they are shopping for horses - whether or not they value exactly the same skills that I value. I KNOW I'm not raising horses that will be suitable for everyone for every sport, but this is just what our priorities have been. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
. Meaning: that if you still own Tosca and I still own Runa next year, I wouldn't be surprised if Runa might be a little ahead of Tosca on canter cues, a little low-level jumping, etc., but that Tosca will be ahead of Runa on trail skills Gosh. Do you think? Too bad we don't live near each other. You could teach Tosca the normal (using this word instead of traditional) arena stuff and Runa and I could go out exploring. Tosca, by the way, loves to jump logs on the trail. At first this took me by surprise, but now I allow the jumping because it's fun for both of us. Again,, okay because I don't intend to sell her. If she were for sale, I would discourage jumping obstacles on trail. Riders who don't have my hunter jumper background don't like it. In Southern Oregon, the market is definitely most viable for well-trained sensible horses that children and women of a certain age can ride. I know three families who have made bad horse buying decisions and are now coping with inappropriare horses. Two of these horses may hurt someone. Karen, you are to be lauded for producing ponies that anyone can be happy and safe riding. They are few and far between. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Gosh. Do you think? Too bad we don't live near each other. You could teach Tosca the normal (using this word instead of traditional) arena stuff and Runa and I could go out exploring. Cool - but if we're going to do this virtual living-side-by-side thing, I want to go out with you on your trails too. I enjoy the finesse training in the ring, but I do like to trail ride. I was sooo jealous when I saw that video of you riding cool-as-a-cucumber young Tosca down that hill into that creek. We're lucky to have trail access right off our property, but I wish we had a creek too. Tosca, by the way, loves to jump logs on the trail. At first this took me by surprise, but now I allow the jumping because it's fun for both of us. Again,, okay because I don't intend to sell her. If she were for sale, I would discourage jumping obstacles on trail. Riders who don't have my hunter jumper background don't like it. Ah, another interesting point, and a good one to bring up, Nancy. You hear me talk about my friend Shirley all the time. She's a graduate of Virginia Intermont College with a BA in Horsemanship (minor in Education). Her college studies in Horsemanship were geared towards hunter/jumper riding, although she's since been a rather serious student of dressage, then various forms of Natural Horsemanship - she even studied with George Morris himself while she was in college. Anyway, she straightened us out early on in our horse owning years about letting young green horses jump on the trail. She totally agrees with you - a trail horse shouldn't jump a log on the trail unless the rider asks and it's the best way to proceed. She also says (and I think I finally may have enough perspective to have an opinion) that a green horse will often jump on trail simply out of lack of experience/perspective...they simply don't know yet what they can step over and what NEEDS to be jumped. Many people will take that inexperienced jump as a sign that the horse wants to jump, but her thinking is that horse probably needs some guidance as to what's appropriate, and what's expected. I fell into that trap with Holly early on, but I learned better! So, mostly we encourage the young, green horses to step over the logs on the trail, and teach them to jump in the ring. Now... that said, I'll confess. Sina is my never-to-be-sold mare, one who's had time on the trails and in the ring, so when she's got some energy going, I sometimes let her jump over a log on the trail. Since Tosca is yours and you are enjoying her...and since I'm sometimes guilty of the same offense, I certainly can't lecture you! Now, if your horse were a high-stepping show-trained horse, with little or no brakes, trained for speed and action, I wouldn't laugh this off so lightly. I just have a feeling that Tosca isn't going to get exuberant to the point of being dangerous, any more than Sina will. Once more, I think horses have the capacity to understand context, and I also trust Sina (11) to take relatively new riders out on the trail while I ride another horse. She's a smart mare - not green - and she knows the difference. In Southern Oregon, the market is definitely most viable for well-trained sensible horses that children and women of a certain age can ride. I know three families who have made bad horse buying decisions and are now coping with inappropriare horses. Two of these horses may hurt someone. That was us, 20 years ago, so that's exactly what I remember when I work with my horses. None of us ever got seriously hurt during that phase, but only by the grace of God...Thunder, Holly, Emily and I all managed to survive, even to this day. I wouldn't wish any new horse owners some of those near-misses that we survived. I've read that you should only try to breed horses that you want to keep yourself, and that's what I tried to keep in mind when I was actively breeding. I don't claim to breed show horses, dressage horses, or endurance horses likewise, I wish more of the Icelandic show-type riders/fans wouldn't try to promote their horses for beginners and regular old folks like me. Karen, you are to be lauded for producing ponies that anyone can be happy and safe riding. They are few and far between. Thanks - of course, I can't claim to be able to compete with the widely acknowledged success of the FCPTA... I can only aspire... ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
She also says (and I think I finally may have enough perspective to have an opinion) that a green horse will often jump on trail simply out of lack of experience/perspective...they simply don't know yet what they can step over and what NEEDS to be jumped. I agree completely. I did not allow Tosca to jump until she had quietly walked over everything for several months. She is jumping about 8 - 12 logs with permission and never from the walk, only when moving forward. She is not allowed to jump twigs nor do I allow her to jump over a little dark gully with water running at it's base. This is a spot that the majority of horses would like to jump the first few times because the lighting is tricky and they can't figure out the perspective. The rules are that she can jump what I want to jump, not what she's too green to negotiate. To further complicate this, Hunter is NEVER allowed to jump anything. Although he seems to have turned into a sedate grown up trail horse, he has such a history of anxiety that I feel he needs to step carefully through everything. I use the cue step, taught at the mounting block They both have learned that step means to take a look and a step forward, one step at a time. And it never means leap. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . I really think they do better if they go out alone early and often. I think you are on to something there Nancy.That was one big mistake I made when starting Soley -- I took her out on the trail almost exclusively with a buddy horse. Even though she led the way and was actually braver than the buddy horse we most often rode with, it still created a problem later on when I tried taking her out alone.She STILL (at 19) does not like to go riding alone.I can ride her around the property out of sight of the other horses, but I can tell she is thinking about where they are. And when I would trailer her out alone to ride, (before kids) it took almost a whole summer before she would stop calling out and listening for another horse. I am hoping to start trailering to our local riding park again this summer later on, and I'm betting Soley will have regressed again to calling out for another horse. Meanwhile, Eitill went out on the trail alone right from the git-go in his training. A friend / horse trainer put his first 8 weeks under saddle on him for me (She weighed all of 100 lbs. at the time and I thought that would be a nice introduction to carrying a rider rather than ME!) He remains my best horse to take out alone and / or with strange horses as he doesn't pay a lick of attention to them. So Nancy, based on my own sampling of two smile, I think you are right. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
To further complicate this, Hunter is NEVER allowed to jump anything. Although he seems to have turned into a sedate grown up trail horse, he has such a history of anxiety that I feel he needs to step carefully through everything. I use the cue step, taught at the mounting block They both have learned that step means to take a look and a step forward, one step at a time. And it never means leap. More good points. That's what is important to me - making judgement calls based on the needs of the particular horse, not trying to make one-size fits all generalities. Some horses are just inherently more anxious, and sometimes we run into horses who have become anxious because of bad experiences. Part of the reason I pay attention to the Parelli program is that I'm always trying to think of ways of expressing what I see in words that others might understand, and if Pat Parelli can do anything well, it's think of meaningful phrases that people can remember. It's in the impulsion DVD that he explains the difference between impulsive and impulsion - most people want a horse with some impulsion, but virtually no one wants an impulsive (unthinking, reactive) horse. He goes on to explain that some horses naturally have a high energy level you might describe as a 10, while others may be a 1 or a 2... and most people like horses somewhere closer to the 5 range. That would be a horse that stops as easily as he goes, isn't in danger of running away with you, but one that you don't have to continually nag to move forward either. In this case, maybe what you're trying to do with Tosca and Hunter is to keep them both near that ideal 5 range...and since (I'm guessing?) Tosca is probably a little lower energy, you can afford to splurge and let her jump, where jumping might rev Hunter up closer to the 10 side of the scale...? I know this 1-10 scale is somewhat simplistic, but I think it gets the point across that what's right for one horse can be totally wrong for another. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
I think you are on to something there Nancy.That was one big mistake I made when starting Soley -- I took her out on the trail almost exclusively with a buddy horse. Even though she led the way and was actually braver than the buddy horse we most often rode with, it still created a problem later on when I tried taking her out alone. She STILL (at 19) does not like to go riding alone. If you see a lot of young horses, you'll see that some just simply aren't as brave out alone as others are. Some never become truly brave out without another horse, but some develop bravery with age and maturity, and exposure, especially as they learn to trust their person. Our home-grown babies seem naturally braver than some of the left-alone babies we've encountered, although I'd say that most Icelandic's are at least fairly brave. But, if you push the wary ones too soon, I think you stand the chance of making them even more wary. It's sort of like the shy two-year-old human who may want to cling to mommy...but if Mommy is there when he's uncertain, he gets his confidence built and eventually will be as confident, or more so, than a small child who is pushed too soon. All of our two-year-old horse-babies have been led out on trail walks, alone with one human. Runa has been led out alone many times. I suspect Runa would be fine to ride out alone now, but if I've misjudged, I could put her into a situation of needing remedial work, and that's something I try to avoid at all costs. Also, if we've misjudged, someone could get hurt, and at this point in our lives, we're just not into pain. To me, this is simply another way of breaking things down into the smallest number of steps possible, so that you can most accurately assess where you stand. Yesterday, when I rode Tivar out with Runa, my main job was to watch Runa. Sometimes the follower can see some signs of resistance that the rider simply can't see. Turns out I didn't need to stay right with her, and from this point, we'll gradually let her and her buddy get further apart until we feel good she can go it alone. I suspect she'll be at that point very soon...but if not, that's ok too. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Tosca is probably a little lower energy, you can afford to splurge and let her jump, where jumping might rev Hunter up closer to the 10 side of the scale...? Exactly! It wasn't easy to teach Tosca to move forward with even an ounce of energy. It wasn't easy to teach Hunter that he didn't need to rush wild-eyed everywhere he went. A middle ground is alwyas a nice goal. I think I've got something else in Yrsa, but I'm not quite sure what. She certainly is more energetic than Tosca. Out for walks, she actually has to be encouraged not to barge ahead. She seems to be sensibly wary of new experiences - she went over the big concrete bridge, but sniffed it first, took a good look at a turkey in the brush, but walked quietly past. I think I like her a lot. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
I think I've got something else in Yrsa, but I'm not quite sure what. She certainly is more energetic than Tosca. Out for walks, she actually has to be encouraged not to barge ahead. She seems to be sensibly wary of new experiences - she went over the big concrete bridge, but sniffed it first, took a good look at a turkey in the brush, but walked quietly past. I think I like her a lot. And that is why I've become rather addicted to working with the young ones, and with the rehab/project horses. They are all different, but all special in their own ways. It's a joy. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
If you see a lot of young horses, you'll see that some just simply aren't as brave out alone as others are. Some never become truly brave out without another horse, but some develop bravery with age and maturity, and exposure, especially as they learn to trust their person. BTW, I in no way mean to imply that I have any experience in starting CTR or endurance horses. That's just not my experience, and I can only speak from what I've personally seen. But, FWIW, there was an article, I think in Trail Rider, about a year ago by Lynn Palm. The subject was training the horse for trail...or maybe it was about working with buddy sour/barn sour horses. Anyway, she has more experience than I'll probably ever have, and she pretty much said that some horses simply will never be really happy and secure riding out alone...and if that is your goal, and something your chosen sport demands, and you have such a horse, it might be better to get another horse and make it easier on everyone. Of course, the trick is trying to decide which ones can be made more confident with time and patience, and which ones will always have to struggle with their insecurities. I think most of us on this list are into building relationships with our horses, so hopefully, we all do everything we can to build that kind of confidence in our horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
notice I aint saying much :) The horses I have started are loved to death and hopelessly ignernt. But happy. Maybe even a little too happy. I think karen and Shirley who works with her horses have a really excellent thing going because Teev was almost push button and so willing, so happy to be taken out for a ride. And now Trausti... today I was leading him and twisted my ankle, dropped the rope, fell into him and he basically groundtied, waiting for me to get myself together. and him and Teev both are sorta pushbutton with the leg cues. way beyond my level of expertise. I hate to send a horse off for training! gosh you hear so many horror stories... but face it, man, horses need to learn these things and when they reach a point where they need to learn something and you don't know how to teach it, you need to find some good help to teach you and the horse I think... and I have had no formal training and my method of preferred riding is to use no reins, just leg stuff. I am too adhd to worry about bit pressure etc. and with posse work we do stuff that is almost like a drill team, carrying a flag in one hand and reins in the other, its just best to steer with your feet. and a horse like fox who cant stand bit pressure, it wasnt safe when I had to steer with his mouth. Trausti will whoa if you say the word, and thats amazing. all mine will on the ground but not in the saddle, but he will in the saddle. My Nasi will go anywhere alone happily. I think its from lots and lots of long walks, years of it really. but he got out one day and just meandered off down the road very happily and content. like oh look, a mobile home with a car up on blocks! I think I will mosey in their yard and see if they have a meth lab! Oh look a pit bull on a chain! wow, our dogs dont have chains! hi doggy! The meter reader let him out and brought him home by leading him by the mane. I swear nasi was smiling, his eyes twinkling with amusement. The little s__t would never have let me lead him anywhere by the hair. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
--- On Fri, 6/27/08, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I've misjudged, I could put her into a situation of needing remedial work That's the mistake I made with Andi - only in my case it was taking him out WITH a horse that sent us to summer school! He was doing fine all by himself. It was putting him with another horse (my mother's horse) that set our program backwards! So again, it's an individual horse's thing. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
My Nasi will go anywhere alone happily. I think its from lots and lots of long walks, years of it really. but he got out one day and just meandered off down the road very happily and content. like oh look, a mobile home with a car up on blocks! I think I will mosey in their yard and see if they have a meth lab! Oh look a pit bull on a chain! wow, our dogs dont have chains! hi doggy! The meter reader let him out and brought him home by leading him by the mane. I swear nasi was smiling, his eyes twinkling with amusement. The little s__t would never have let me lead him anywhere by the hair. And there's a another deficiency in our training plan...our horses are sorely missing the chained pitt bull/meth lab exposure... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
That's the mistake I made with Andi - only in my case it was taking him out WITH a horse that sent us to summer school! He was doing fine all by himself. It was putting him with another horse (my mother's horse) that set our program backwards! So again, it's an individual horse's thing. What did Fireman do to him? I think I missed that. Looking back at pictures, I notice that I've picked different horses to be the designated babysitter at times. Ironically, when we first realized that Tivar was better from his ulcers, but we weren't sure how he'd do on the trails (fine, it turned out, but we couldn't be sure beforehand) it was Trausti that I picked to do the duty that Tivar did yesterday with Runa. I don't think all of my horses make equally good baby-sitter horses, although I think a much higher percentage of Icelandics can do that duty well than in other breeds. I think Teev will be one of the best ever. He's cool as a cucumber in a pinch. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
think karen and Shirley who works with her horses have a really excellent thing going because Teev was almost push button and so willing, so happy to be taken out for a ride. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but on Tivar's willingness to go out alone - I don't think we can take credit for that. I have a feeling that's just his innate personality. About all I can claim is that we didn't do anything to squelch what was naturally there. He and Sina (two of my favorite all-time horses) both have that trait, and I give them credit for having been born that way - both are eerily intelligent and very curious about the world. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
These are great checklists, Karen - thanks for putting them together - Shall I compile all of the suggestions and put them on a page? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
2008/6/26 Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ) It should all be FUN...for horse and rider. Smile and have a sense of humor, and encourage your horse to do the same! When I put the horses to bed at night, I have been noticing that Solon is a bit wary of me. Obviously I've done something that he was uncomfortable with...It might have been something I did inadvertently when I was ground driving him the last time. I can't recall anything specific but it was before I was diagnosed with this pesky arm thing...so I can't imagine I was too chipper about life in general He wouldn't come into the paddock where the new mounting block was when I asked him to come in freely...so that was another warning sign to me. So I got out his halter and by the time I had it on him, he had decided that he WOULD like to come in for a bit of ground work. I was able to release him the moment I had him by the mounting block and he was eager to work freely. He stood on the mounting block when I asked and even managed to get all four feet up. So apparently he just needed to be asked nicely. I left him feeling pretty confident about himself. Anyway...there was a point to all this. Babies need to be encouraged and need to believe that you're the most exciting game in town. I had obviously made some mis-steps with Solon along the way, but he was quite forgiving about what ever it was...and all it took was 10 or 15 minutes of lovely fun... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
Here's my second checklist - Pre-riding basics. What did I forget? The tradition is to teach these things immediately before saddle-training begins, but I see no reason that these basics can't be spread over a year...or two, or more prior to saddle-training. ) Will the horse move away from light pressure? I'm not a big fanatic on the respect part we hear from too many NH-types, but there really does need to be a basis of respect. A horse that will run over you is dangerous. (This is more prominent on my radar screen, since I will soon be working with a wild mustang who knows nothing about human-horse manners.) ) Does the horse know how to play the Seven Games with a person (meaning the horse's version of seven games... which may or may not be literally the same as Parelli's version) ) Does the horse know some basic words - whoa, back, walk, stop, trot (gait, whatever), canter (can come later), good boy/girl, easy, good, no... ) Will the horse flex and bend quietly and without extreme reactions when cued from the ground-handler? ) Will the horse transition into the next gait quietly and promptly, both as an upward or downward transition? ) Can the horse be steered from the ground? The 7 Games can be a good start, but ground driving/long lining is a big plus. ) Is the horse willing to participate in the learning, with a good attitude? Can you see the wheels turning and a light in his eyes? ) When the horse doesn't understand something, does he calmly try to figure it out, without any panic? ) Comfortable with the saddle, pad, etc? Comfortable with stirrups banging on his sides without a rider? ) Comfortable with a person bouncing near his side, leaning over him, etc.? From both sides? ) Is the horse ready and waiting to come out and play for the next session, or is he reticent about being haltered and/or caught? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
My third checklist: VERY early riding basics. Again, what did I forget? Basic riding skills - preferably done bitless, or with the mildest snaffle/loose rein: ) Will the horse stand quietly to be mounted? ) Will the horse stand quietly after being mounted to give the rider time to adjust stirrups, whatever? ) Is the horse comfortable with the rider moving in the saddle? ) Can the rider lean forward and back, touching the horse's head and hips while the horse stands quietly, relaxed? ) Will the horse walk forward from the mounting block without surging? ) Does the horse stop quietly and promptly? From all gaits? ) Will the horse move into the next gait quietly and promptly, both as an upward or downward transition? ) Has the horse transferred the words he learned during groundwork to the under saddle work? ) Can the horse be steered with a very light rein? ) Will the horse flex and bend quietly and without extreme reactions when cued from the saddle? No over bending, and no head-slinging in the name of flexing! ) Will the horse slow as the rider reduces his/her energy and pick up the tempo as the rider increases his/her energy? ) Will the horse move away from leg pressure, the prelude to... ) Can the horse be steered by seat and leg? ) Can the horse kiss the stirrups which is a prelude to... ) Can the rider turn the horse to stop, which is a prelude to... ) Does the horse know the one-rein stop? ) Are there things that seem troubling to the horse, such as the sight of whips, a loud rider, dogs, rustling leaves, whatever? I stay in the ring for riding until the horse's stop cue is close to impeccable, and he's comfortable with all of the above, with nothing obviously troubling him. Leading the horse out on the trail is acceptable - sometimes desirable - before this point - but I won't ride on the trail until this point. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
Anyway...there was a point to all this. Babies need to be encouraged and need to believe that you're the most exciting game in town. I had obviously made some mis-steps with Solon along the way, but he was quite forgiving about what ever it was...and all it took was 10 or 15 minutes of lovely fun... Wanda not just babies... they have the funniest way of feeling jealous. Like adolescents wanting to be teachers pet. I have a tendency to just ignore curly ray. he is such a grump and so resistant to anything i find myself just forgetting about him. He hates a bath, argues with me when I try to halter him, flattens his ears when i try to brush him, is ingenious at getting out of my wrestling hold to worm him... but if i go in the paddock and spend time petting and loving the horse in with him, soon i will feel a presence and yep, there he is, gazing forlorn. So I spend time with him and he acts like see? she likes me too... like its important for him to show the others he is a part of the deal. but lord he gets on my nerves sometimes! I have him in with jas now cause he is so short he cant steal his food, and he is so mean to poor ol Jas. jas just stands switching his tail, ears flat, just beside himself with aggravation while curls stands braying at him, just telling him off haha. But I have to be so careful going into the paddock with Stonewall. He will get so upset if I try and love on another horse, will lunge at them and run them off from me and it gets dangerous. and if I have company oh my, they all try and outdo themselves trying to get all the attention. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Ok, I'll take a quick stab at this part and turn it over to Nancy! Basic trail skills (bitless or with a mild snaffle/loose rein) ) Will the horse lag behind the horse in front without rushing to catch up? ) Will the horse deviate (at least slightly) from the path his partner horse is taking? In other words, will the young horse willingly take a trail loop slightly away from the other horse, even for a short period? ) Can the horse leap-frog, leading then following? ) Is the horse unworried about basic trail stuff, like blown-over trees, fallen limbs, rustling leaves, an occasional critter (snake, squirrel, deer, whatever...) ) Is the horse relaxed in an open field as well as in the woods? ) If you have to cross roads, is the horse unworried by passing cars? Warning signs: Does the horse feel panicked that he must stay glued to his partner horse? Is the horse calling back to horses at the barn? Does the horse stop and show anxiety about leaving the sight of the barn or pasture? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
Anyway...there was a point to all this. Babies need to be encouraged and need to believe that you're the most exciting game in town. I had obviously made some mis-steps with Solon along the way, but he was quite forgiving about what ever it was...and all it took was 10 or 15 minutes of lovely fun... I think horses are very good at discerning our intent, and putting our actions into context...and are very good at forgiving. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Basic trail skills (bitless or with a mild snaffle/loose rein) ) Will the horse lag behind the horse in front without rushing to catch up? ) Will the horse deviate (at least slightly) from the path his partner horse is taking? In other words, will the young horse willingly take a trail loop slightly away from the other horse, even for a short period? ) Can the horse leap-frog, leading then following? ) Is the horse unworried about basic trail stuff, like blown-over trees, fallen limbs, rustling leaves, an occasional critter (snake, squirrel, deer, whatever...) ) Is the horse relaxed in an open field as well as in the woods? ) If you have to cross roads, is the horse unworried by passing cars? Yes to all of these, plus: Will the horse go through mud, running streams and wider shallow types of water? Will he cross any kind of safe bridge? Can he be ridden out alone? I start this very early on. I think it is easier when they are still very open-minded. Can he climb steep sections of trail? Can he descend steep sections of trail? This is harder for most youngsters, but important for us here where there are so many mountains. Can he keep his act together if the truly scarey appears - bicycles, baby joggers, ATV's, helicopters? I'm not looking for bombproof, but a safe response, even if it means my dismounting. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics
I think horses are very good at discerning our intent, and putting our actions into context...and are very good at forgiving. Karen Thomas, NC i very rarely whack a horse but when i do, man he deserves it. Usually just full of beans and acting arrogant and snotty. but its always interesting to me how I can whack a horse for acting up and they react. but i can whack a horse accidentally and they know it! how do they know... i read somewhere that the horse is the most perceptive of all mammals. I think it was in national geographic. and when I think how perceptive I am, and then try to imagine if i was like ten times or twenty times more perceptive... i can hardly imagine it, it would be like mind reading. my horses when young, they try to get over on me and think its funny. but as they age, they gain respect and appreciation for my generosity and yes, forgiveness and affection. But I can be trying to catch nasi or something and he will flip me off and do something rude and I will just start getting firm and he will still flip me off but the INSTANT i actually get mad he becomes totally submissive. Even contrite. He almost killed me recently. WHile leading him up to a locked gate, while I was trying to unlock it, he got playful with curly ray, dancing and butt shoving him until curly ray did the donkey dominance thing and mounted him and bit him in the nape without letting go, and caused nasi to surge ahead, pinning me into the fence. By the time I got done yelling as loud as I could and kicking his shins and whacking both of them with the lead rope they were little angels with halos and I did not do anything to them that would actually even cause a bruise. But they were good for a whole week or two which for those two is nearly impossible. and teev, if he ever thought you were unfair he would act like the biggest sour apple you ever saw. but one time I accidently whacked him hard with a hard clunk right in the face with a long handle of a crab net I was carrying to keep the turkeys off me and he just winced. And he is a horse that threw himself sideways and ran backwards when a stranger on the trail grabbed his face to pet him when he wasnt expecting it. They know things. They do know intent. I have been walking out into the pasture with the lead rope and on my way to get Jas or stonewall, I stop and pet Trausti, holding the lead rope in my hand, and then go on my way, just letting him know when he sees me coming with a lead rope it doesnt always mean work. he always acts like just keep eating and she'll move on haha. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Young horse training basics - trail
Will the horse go through mud, running streams and wider shallow types of water? We don't have any running streams on our property, so that's one thing that doesn't get covered very early here. I do try to use puddles when we get them...:) Will he cross any kind of safe bridge? No streams here, so no bridges, but I do have a fake bridge in the obstacle course. So far, that seems to be enough. I can't remember any of my horses having a problem with a bridge. I wouldn't guarantee that all of mine would cross every kind of bridge, but overall they are a sensible lot. Can he descend steep sections of trail? This is harder for most youngsters, but important for us here where there are so many mountains. Another thing our trails aren't strong on - we're in an area of rolling hills, but we do have two short but slightly steep spots on the trails - nothing like mountains, but at least a taste of hills... This is good to talk about I think. We're all going to have our own regional trail issues, but at least talking about this stuff gives new owners a few things to ask about. Karen Thomas, NC
