Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Raj Mathur]

On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:21, मनीष wrote:
> Raju> My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I
> have Rajuto
> Raju> add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after
> Raju> installation.
> Raju>
> Raju> -- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that
> does Rajuthe
> Raju> job)
>
> have you had a chance to look at apt-spy yet?
> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-package.en.html (sec.
> 6.4.15)

Now wasn't that dumb of me?  Coincidentally, I know the author of 
apt-spy (Steven) quite well on the 'net, and I remember how excited he 
was when he got it working (and subsequently when the package got 
included in Debian), and it completely slipped my mind!

Thanks, Manish.

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
 Freedom in Technology & Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Raj Mathur]

On Thursday 15 November 2007 09:53, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:31:41 +0530, Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
said:
> [snip]
> > My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I
> > have to add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so
> > after installation.
>
> I have never heard of apt-setup. What did it do?
>
> > -- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that does
> >the job)
>
> vim?

Yeah, that's what I use (well, emacs), but it requires reading the 
manual to figure out the exact syntax of the sources lines, as well as 
the exact URLs to the repositories, which I don't want to waste time 
locating.  apt-setup could automagically add the relevant lines to 
sources.list once you selected which mirror to use (by country/name) in 
it's debconf interface.

Will switch to apt-spy now.

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
 Freedom in Technology & Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Gaurav Mishra]

On Nov 15, 2007 10:21 AM, मनीष <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Raju> My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I
> have Rajuto
> Raju> add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after
> Raju> installation.
> Raju>
> Raju> -- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that
> does Rajuthe
> Raju> job)
>
> have you had a chance to look at apt-spy yet?
> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-package.en.html (sec.
> 6.4.15)
>

apt-spy http://pwet.fr/man/linux/administration_systeme/apt_spy
 and
netselect http://penguin-soft.com/penguin/man/1/netselect-apt.html

are good options, Found netselect usually better than apt-spy


-- 
Thanks and Regards
Gaurav Mishra

Linux User #348873
http://gauravmishra.info/blog
"When i can run , i will run , When i can walk , i will walk, When i can
crawl , i will crawl. But i will not stop moving forward"
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[मनीष]

Raju> My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I
have Rajuto
Raju> add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after
Raju> installation.
Raju>
Raju> -- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that
does Rajuthe
Raju> job)

have you had a chance to look at apt-spy yet?
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-package.en.html (sec.
6.4.15)

-- 
Manish

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:31:41 +0530, Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 21:00, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> [snip] Debian Installer.  Could you provide some details?  If you did
>> get an empty file, I would like to see under what circumstances the
>> bug is triggered.

> My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I have
> to add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after
> installation.

I have never heard of apt-setup. What did it do?

> -- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that does
>the job)

vim?

manoj
-- 
When more and more people are thrown out of work, unemployment
results. Calvin Coolidge
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[मनीष]

Raju> > My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I have
Raju> > to add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after
Raju> > installation.

Manoj> I have never heard of apt-setup. What did it do?

http://packages.debian.org/unstable/source/apt-setup
http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/system/apt-get-intro.html#SETUP

-- 
Manish

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Raj Mathur]

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 21:00, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> [snip]
> Debian Installer.  Could you provide some details?  If you
> did get an empty file, I would like to see under what circumstances
> the bug is triggered.

My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed apt-setup.  Now I have to 
add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do so after 
installation.

-- Raju (hoping some Debian wizard offers up another tool that does the 
job)
-- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
 Freedom in Technology & Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Roshan]

--- Raj Mathur wrote:

> My biggest grouse with Debian -- they removed
> apt-setup.  Now I have to 
> add mirrors manually to sources.list if I want to do
> so after 
> installation.

Hmm, so you still use Debian GNU/Linux, don't you? (Or
have you switch to Ubuntu ;-) ;)

--
http://www.gnu.org.in
http://www.somaiya.edu/sksasc
ubunturos @ freenode


  Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to 
http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:16:21 +0530, Kazim Zaidi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> On 14/11/2007, Manoj Srivastava
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> As you've quoted in one of your posts in the same thread, there's a
> choice between "variety of choices" and "simplicity". While Debian
> would try to provide a variety of choices, Ubuntu would rather *strip*
> some functionality in an attempt to prevent confusion among newbies.

I agree completely.  I find that very user unfriendly.  It makes
 it harder for people ti learn their tools, and migrate from being a
 novice user, if details are constantly being elided from them.

> Every distribution tries to be the best, and user friendliness and
> stability are common goals. My only point is (not to be misunderstood)
> is that Ubuntu strives for user-friendliness as its main goal.

Hiding information from users hinders the learning cycle.  I
 find  Ubuntu very unfriendly, personally, since their choices are
 almost never what I have grown accustomed to, and Ubuntu gets in my way
 when I try to change things. I find it is easier to install Debian than
 to try to configure Ubuntu to do what I want, since much needs to be
 undone. 

I do not buy into the  marketing frame that only operating
 systems that emulate windoiws or MAC OS are user friendly. Neither do I
 buy into the concept that only novice users are of any importance,
 because  novice users are the only way to grow a market.

Have you ever considered why novice users are so important? I
 mean, it makes a lot of sense for a company.  If the market is not
 growing, then you are engaged in an ever vicious  fight with your
 competition, and sooner or later, that would erode the profitability
 and you would be living on paper thin margins.

If the market expands, however, you are saved from all that. And
 considering how old users tend to stick with you out of brand loyalty,
 it makes sense to pitch your product to new users -- and only offer
 marginal incentives to old users; a new user is worth a lot more than a
 few disgruntled old users.

And, unlike commercial Linux companies, Debian is not in the
 business to make money -- so we do not care as much about market share
 and growing the market at the expense of usability for experienced
 users.

Novice users are not the only users that one should cater to --
 unless one is worried about profit margins. In the latter case, it
 makes a lot of sense.

> I should express my inability to cite examples. But, If you can
> understand the message I'm trying to convey, I'm sure you can give
> examples too.

I might be misunderstanding your message.

> I'm not sure if Debian has stated its goals as clearly as Ubuntu
> has. I think Debian aims for being a versatile distribution for almost
> any purpose you would use a computer for. It would be great if you, as
> a Debian developer, provide some insight in this matter.

Ubuntu has a boss.  It was very evident in the GNOME input
 debacle a few years ago, when Mark remarked that the wishes of the
 owner were not a request.

Debian allows the people who contribute to it more freedom.  It
 also means we have fewer, simpler, goals.  We just want to be the best
 distribution, ever,  but probably in the eyes of those who work on
 Debian.  Since some of us have internationalization, and novice appeal
 in that mix, Debian benefits.

I think Debian tries to provide choice, and each one of the
 developers tries to make it the best distribution for themselves, and
 since we have so many contributors, Debian tends to improve on all
 kinds of fronts.

Ubuntu is the cathedral.  Debian is the Bazaar.  Chaotic,
 disorganized -- and, in my opinion, ultimately better.

> Ubuntu on the other hand, wants to be the best distribution for a home
> user.

> IMHO, Ubuntu is Debian's child, and cannot survive without it. But the
> goals and target users can be different, as they are.

> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would hesitate to voice an opinion on what Ubuntu is trying to
 be, since I am non Mark, an employee of canonical, or even a user, so
 doubtless you are correct.

-- 
"I think trash is the most important manifestation of culture we have in
my lifetime."- Johnny Legend
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:16:15 +0530, Sriram J
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

>  Does ilugd actually have users from across the globe?  I thought
>  every one on this list is part of ilugd and therefore represents
> it.  Forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me what is cross
> commenting

I live in Tennessee, USA.

manoj
-- 
May you die in bed at 95, shot by a jealous spouse.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:51:08 +0530, Shamail Tayyab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> On Nov 14, 2007 2:23 PM, Manoj Srivastava
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> It seems that i am not that skilled as much as you are, though i think
> i can answer all the queries, and still can prove my point!  Let me go
> particular...  Firstly, i was talking in general, what an average
> human being thinks...

Are you implying I am not average? A freak, perhaps? :-)

> With 3D desktop i meant compiz, beryl, fusion etc. (now please dont
> say, i should have said compiz fusion) in deb, one needs to edit
> xorg.conf to add glx in the module section...  leave it let dexconf do
> it... all of us know you consider it normal... you consider, not a
> newbie. This is your personal opinion about gnome or kde, but it
> doesn't counts in user-friendliness - our actual point of discussion

I am a user too, you know. I find that Debian caters to my needs
 -- which means allowing me to _not_ use GNOME or KDE, and to do so
 easily.

I do not like choices being made for me, behind my back, and
 information being hidden from me because people think I am too ignorant
 to handle the details.  Information needs to be free -- and
 configuration easily changeable.  I find Debian unparralled in that. 

>> I do not understand what defaulting sound to software mixer means. I
>> made sure that my kernel had my sound driver compiled as a module,
>> and it all worked. Even the buttons on the outside of the laptop
>> work, and are supported by Xorg.
>> 
> Have you experienced something like, changing of volume doesn't
> function?

Not in Debian.

> This happens because in many cases, hardware volume mixer doesn't
> work, the best solution is to keep aside the hardware, and control the
> volume using software mixer... ubuntu defaults to it.

Unless you mean a physical button or wheel to control volume,
 _all_ volume control is in software, but I suspect that is not what you
 mean.  I have no idea what you do mean, though -- I've never
 experienced whatever you are facing.

I use gamix or the gkrellm volume control or my speakers volume
 control to adjust the volume.

> Means in every case, either your card is being rendered properly or
> not, volume control will work for sure.  Try Intel 915 on debian and
> change PCM level... you'll realize.  Manually, for this one has to
> write a plugin like this...
> http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/How_to_use_softvol_to_control_the_master_volume

Ah.  The article was illuminating, you are talking about either
 a defective sound card (can't control volume) or an inadequate driver.

See, I would hate for people to take my choices away.  A good
 sound card, with a fully functional driver, can do a better job than
 just throttling the sound you send to the card in the first place, by
 attenuating the volume in software.

Debian gives me a choice -- which is all that I want.  The
 defaults are easy enough to change (and I tend to research my machines
 before I buy them, so I guess I never face this particular issue).

>> Well, the novice user would, if they had read the instructions.  I am
>> not sure I have much sympathy for people who can't read the
>> installation instructions.
>> 
>> Secondly, I have no idea why X is so much better than the curses
>> based install; I prefer the curses, personally, since it is
>> faster. And I was able to install a fully encrypted partition, with
>> LVM on top, entirely from the install.
>> 
>   Again you are giving your personal opinion, "I have no idea...". Why
> do you think others have to do anything with your idea?? Do you think
> they don't have brains to form their opinion about curses and X?

You too are giving a personal opinion when you say distro_foo is
 more user friendly than distro_bar.  Indeed, this is all opinions.

>> 
>> And, despite it all being encrypted -- it suspends to ram, and
>> suspends to disk, all by itself.
>> 
>> Try doing a fully encrypted (all but boot -- and yes, the swap is
>> encrypted, and still resume works) in either Fedora or Ubuntu. User
>> friendly, my foot.
>> 

> Had you used a bit better way of talking on a such a big mailing list,
> where you are representing yourselves among more than 6000 people,
> i'ld have been much interested in answering this as well.  Really,
> this was not expected... from a person like you. I've seen your
> profile. So my dear friend... keep your calm. This is not a battle
> field.

This is not really a very big mailing list. And I think you
 should  try to address the user friendliness issue that is being brought
 up -- but I understand if you do not have an answer.

>> This happens not to be the case.  D-I creates an sources.list.
>> 
> Please tell me what D-I is? In my case, i've got an empty file after
> install.

Debian Installer.  Could you provide some details?  If you did
 get an empty file, I would like to see un

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kazim Zaidi]

On 14/11/2007, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am sorry to not be able to help you out here.  My desire is to
> have a dialogue, not to engage in flame wars, so if it is a flame you
> desire, you have to look elsewhere.  Why _would_ you prefer us to flame
> each other, though, out of curiosity?


I'm happy to have a dialogue with an experienced developer like you. Hope
the discussion continues to be friendly. :)

  [snip] ... I have always thought that the goal of Debian was to be the
> best
> distribution of Linux ever, and sacrificing user friendliness seems to
> be contrary to that goal.
>
> Could you please show me where Debian says it strives solely for
> stability and originality, at the expense of other characteristics?
> Perhaps I am missing out on something here.


As you've quoted in one of your posts in the same thread, there's a choice
between "variety of choices" and "simplicity". While Debian would try to
provide a variety of choices, Ubuntu would rather *strip* some functionality
in an attempt to prevent confusion among newbies.

Every distribution tries to be the best, and user friendliness and stability
are common goals. My only point is (not to be misunderstood) is that
Ubuntu strives for user-friendliness as its main goal.

I should express my inability to cite examples. But, If you can understand
the message I'm trying to convey, I'm sure you can give examples too.


> In particular read here http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56
>
> Mark is a fairly new Debian developer, so I would not place a
> great deal of faith in his articulation of what Debian's goals
> are. Indeed, canonical's financial success derives from peoples belief
> that somehow canonical's product line is better than Debian, so ...
>
> As he confesses in that article, he does not really have a good
> handle on what the goals of Debian are. I am there fore overjoyed to
> hear that you have an idea on what Debian wants to do.
>
> Could you please elaborate, perhaps from the writings of someone
> who knows Debian better, what you think Debian's goals are?  I know a
> lot of people who would be very interested.

I'm not sure if Debian has stated its goals as clearly as Ubuntu has. I
think
Debian aims for being a versatile distribution for almost any purpose you
would use a computer for. It would be great if you, as a Debian developer,
provide some insight in this matter.

Ubuntu on the other hand, wants to be the best distribution for a home user.

IMHO, Ubuntu is Debian's child, and cannot survive without it. But the goals
and target users can be different, as they are.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

- Kazim Zaidi
Blog: http://tuxplayground.blogspot.com
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Sriram J]

On 11/14/07, Shamail Tayyab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Nov 14, 2007 2:23 PM, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is mailing list, with users from across the globe...
> You are representing the iLugD, what impact does it carry (may be you are
> trying to show off your knowledge, well i am sorry for this, but it seems
> to
> be the truth)?
> Anyways...



 Does  ilugd actually have users from across the globe?
 I thought every one on this list is part of ilugd and therefore represents
it.
Forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me what is cross commenting

Regards
Sriram
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Shamail Tayyab]

On Nov 14, 2007 2:23 PM, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:14:32 +0530, Shamail Tayyab
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > This is what i consider as flame wars.
>
>Err. I am not sure why you think so -- no one is going around
>  attacking other people.
>
> > But what i think Kazim was
> > trying to say was not actually what it seems, i myself is a Debian
> > user from a long time, its not like defending someone, but why we
> > don't look at small facts, like,
>
> >> I need to configure glx before i can run any 3D desktop client.  I
>
>I have never had to configure glx to do anything special. What
>  exactly did you have to do?  And what is a "3D desktop client"?
>
>I did have t configure /etc/X11/xorg.conf, with help from
>  dexconf, but I consider that normal -- and I did not have to deal with
>  the bloatedness of Gnome or KDE, which is hard to escape, I am told, in
>  Ubuntu.
>

It seems that i am not that skilled as much as you are, though i think i can
answer all the queries, and still can prove my point!
Let me go particular...
Firstly, i was talking in general, what an average human being thinks...

With 3D desktop i meant compiz, beryl, fusion etc. (now please dont say, i
should have said compiz fusion)
in deb, one needs to edit xorg.conf to add glx in the module section...
leave it
let dexconf do it... all of us know you consider it normal... you consider,
not a newbie. This is your personal opinion about gnome or kde, but it
doesn't counts in user-friendliness - our actual point of discussion


>
>
> >> need to edit ALSA configuration to have my system defaults its sound
> >> to software mixer, which is preconfigured in ubuntu.
>
>I do not understand what defaulting sound to software mixer
>  means. I made sure that my kernel had my sound driver compiled as a
>  module, and it all worked. Even the buttons on the outside of the
>  laptop work, and are supported by Xorg.
>
Have you experienced something like, changing of volume doesn't function?
This happens because in many cases, hardware volume mixer doesn't work, the
best solution is to keep aside the hardware, and control the volume using
software mixer... ubuntu defaults to it. Means in every case, either your
card is being rendered properly or not, volume control will work for sure.
Try Intel 915 on debian and change PCM level... you'll realize.
Manually, for this one has to write a plugin like this...
http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/How_to_use_softvol_to_control_the_master_volume


>I am using the Dell Precision M90 laptop with intel HD audio.
>
> >> I need to install everything in text mode. (does anyone think a
> >> novice> user had a dream the night before he installed debain, to give
> > "installgui" at the boot prompt)
>
>Well, the novice user would, if they had read the instructions.
>  I am not sure I have much sympathy for people who can't read the
>  installation instructions.
>
>Secondly, I have no idea why X is so much better than the curses
>  based install; I prefer the curses, personally, since it is faster. And
>  I was able to install a fully encrypted partition, with LVM on top,
>  entirely from the install.
>
  Again you are giving your personal opinion, "I have no idea...". Why do
you think others have to do anything with your idea?? Do you think they
don't have brains to form their opinion about curses and X?

>
>And, despite it all being encrypted -- it suspends to ram, and
>  suspends to disk, all by itself.
>
>Try doing a fully encrypted (all but boot -- and yes, the swap
>  is encrypted, and still resume works) in either Fedora or Ubuntu. User
>  friendly, my foot.
>

Had you used a bit better way of talking on a such a big mailing list, where
you are representing yourselves among more than 6000 people, i'ld have been
much  interested in answering  this  as well.
Really, this was not expected... from a person like you. I've seen your
profile. So my dear friend... keep your calm. This is not a battle field.

>
> >> I myself need to edit sources.list,  >> in debian> to get aptitude working.
>
>This happens not to be the case.  D-I creates an sources.list.
>
Please tell me what D-I is? In my case, i've got an empty file after
install.

>
> >> Its the end of 2007, and i still log in for the first time in the
> > traditional old gnome theme. Same with other desktop environments.
>
>Thankfully, Debian allows me _not_ to log into either GNOME or
>  KDE. And configuring themes is an easy, one time thing; giving me the
>  choices I want is far more user friendly than going for eye candy by
>  default.  Are GNIOME themese so very hard to change? I was assured that
>  changing themes is easy -- in which case, what does it matter what the
>  initial theme is?
>
Yes, this matters... means debi is good that they provide no theme, and rest
of 4786 distro developers are mad enough to waste their time and resour

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:14:32 +0530, Shamail Tayyab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> This is what i consider as flame wars.

Err. I am not sure why you think so -- no one is going around
 attacking other people.

> But what i think Kazim was
> trying to say was not actually what it seems, i myself is a Debian
> user from a long time, its not like defending someone, but why we
> don't look at small facts, like,

>> I need to configure glx before i can run any 3D desktop client.  I

I have never had to configure glx to do anything special. What
 exactly did you have to do?  And what is a "3D desktop client"?

I did have t configure /etc/X11/xorg.conf, with help from
 dexconf, but I consider that normal -- and I did not have to deal with
 the bloatedness of Gnome or KDE, which is hard to escape, I am told, in
 Ubuntu.


>> need to edit ALSA configuration to have my system defaults its sound
>> to software mixer, which is preconfigured in ubuntu.

I do not understand what defaulting sound to software mixer
 means. I made sure that my kernel had my sound driver compiled as a
 module, and it all worked. Even the buttons on the outside of the
 laptop work, and are supported by Xorg.

I am using the Dell Precision M90 laptop with intel HD audio.

>> I need to install everything in text mode. (does anyone think a
>> novice> user had a dream the night before he installed debain, to give
> "installgui" at the boot prompt)

Well, the novice user would, if they had read the instructions.
 I am not sure I have much sympathy for people who can't read the
 installation instructions.

Secondly, I have no idea why X is so much better than the curses
 based install; I prefer the curses, personally, since it is faster. And
 I was able to install a fully encrypted partition, with LVM on top,
 entirely from the install.

And, despite it all being encrypted -- it suspends to ram, and
 suspends to disk, all by itself.

Try doing a fully encrypted (all but boot -- and yes, the swap
 is encrypted, and still resume works) in either Fedora or Ubuntu. User
 friendly, my foot.

>> I myself need to edit sources.list, > in debian> to get aptitude working.

This happens not to be the case.  D-I creates an sources.list.

>> Its the end of 2007, and i still log in for the first time in the
> traditional old gnome theme. Same with other desktop environments.

Thankfully, Debian allows me _not_ to log into either GNOME or
 KDE. And configuring themes is an easy, one time thing; giving me the
 choices I want is far more user friendly than going for eye candy by
 default.  Are GNIOME themese so very hard to change? I was assured that
 changing themes is easy -- in which case, what does it matter what the
 initial theme is?

>> One needs to download or what i did, steal bash_completion to get the
> better environment support.

What on earth are you talking about? Look at the end of the
 post, as I demonstrate how loads of packages install bash_completions
 automatically. Try "dlocate /etc/bash_completion"

I don't think you are talking about Debian.

> // And many of hue and tricks, which are there in distros like fedora
> // and ubuntu...

And also in Debian, from what I can tell.  Try installing a
 non-GNOME non-KDE desktop in Ubuntu. Hah.

> Are these things justified for a person just starting his journey
> of GNU/Linux. And answer yourself, how many of power users you have
> seen, recommending Debian for novices?  Yes its true that Debian is
> providing a real stable system, but i don't think its doing much in
> terms of user-friendliness, what other trends are driving Linux
> to Anyhow, this is my personal opinion, maybe they want a raw
> distro!

Frankly, I think this is just plain old FUD.  I  think that user
 friendliness has also rests in the choices offered; and the ojly users
 to be friendly to are not the novice ones.

Every single thing you have said is for the distribution to make
 choices on behalf og novice users -- which, BTW, is extremely
 unfriendly to non-novice users.

manoj

__> dlocate /etc/bash_completion
dbs: /etc/bash_completion.d
dbs: /etc/bash_completion.d/dbs-edit-patch
reprepro: /etc/bash_completion.d
reprepro: /etc/bash_completion.d/reprepro
bash: /etc/bash_completion.d
bash: /etc/bash_completion
dpatch: /etc/bash_completion.d
dpatch: /etc/bash_completion.d/dpatch_edit_patch
stgit: /etc/bash_completion.d
stgit: /etc/bash_completion.d/stg
debtags: /etc/bash_completion.d
debtags: /etc/bash_completion.d/debtags
pbuilder: /etc/bash_completion.d
pbuilder: /etc/bash_completion.d/pbuilder
apt-file: /etc/bash_completion.d
apt-file: /etc/bash_completion.d/apt-file
inkscape: /etc/bash_completion.d
inkscape: /etc/bash_completion.d/inkscape
cdcd: /etc/bash_completion.d
cdcd: /etc/bash_completion.d/cdcd
svn-buildpackage: /etc/bash_completion.d
svn-buildpackage: /etc/bash_completion.d/svn-

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Shamail Tayyab]

On Nov 14, 2007 4:50 AM, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:23:53 +0530, Kazim Zaidi
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > On 13-Nov-07, at 8:13 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >> > Could you please elaborate? Do you have specifics in mind
> >> > where Debian is either "purist friendly" or not "user friendly", but
> a
> >> > Debian derivative has markedly different behaviour?
>
> > Well, my ignorance doesn't allow me to participate in a flamewar here.
>
>I am sorry to not be able to help you out here.  My desire is to
>  have a dialogue, not to engage in flame wars, so if it is a flame you
>  desire, you have to look elsewhere.  Why _would_ you prefer us to flame
>  each other, though, out of curiosity?
>
> > But the point that I want to convey was that Ubuntu & Debian have very
> > different goals. Ubuntu insists on user-friendliness and targets
> > desktop users primarily, while Debian would aim for stability and
> > originality.
>
>Your claims about the target for Debian come as a surprise to
>  me. I have always thought that the goal of Debian was to be the best
>  distribution of Linux ever, and sacrificing user friendliness seems to
>  be contrary to that goal.
>
>Could you please show me where Debian says it strives solely for
>  stability and originality, at the expense of other characteristics?
>  Perhaps I am missing out on something here.
>
> > In particular read here http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56
>
>Mark is a fairly new Debian developer, so I would not place a
>  great deal of faith in his articulation of what Debian's goals
>  are. Indeed, canonical's financial success derives from peoples belief
>  that somehow canonical's product line is better than Debian, so ...
>
>As he confesses in that article, he does not really have a good
>  handle on what the goals of Debian are. I am there fore overjoyed to
>  hear that you have an idea on what Debian wants to do.
>
>Could you please elaborate, perhaps from the writings of someone
>  who knows Debian better, what you think Debian's goals are?  I know a
>  lot of people who would be very interested.
>
>manoj
> --
> Q: How many IBM CPU's does it take to execute a job? A: Four; three to
> hold it down, and one to rip its head off.
> Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
>
>
> ___
> ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
> http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
> Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
> Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi
> http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
>
>
This is what i consider as flame wars.
But what i think Kazim was trying to say was not actually what it seems, i
myself is a Debian user from a long time, its not like defending someone,
but why we don't look at small facts, like,
> I need to configure glx before i can run any 3D desktop client.
> I need to edit ALSA configuration to have my system defaults its sound to
software mixer, which is preconfigured in ubuntu.
> I need to install everything in text mode. (does anyone think a novice
user had a dream the night before he installed debain, to give "installgui"
at the boot prompt)
> I myself need to edit sources.list, 
to get aptitude working.
> Its the end of 2007, and i still log in for the first time in the
traditional old gnome theme. Same with other desktop environments.
> One needs to download or what i did, steal bash_completion to get the
better environment support.
// And many of hue and tricks, which are there in distros like fedora and
ubuntu...

Are these things justified for a person just starting his journey of
GNU/Linux. And answer yourself, how many of power users you have seen,
recommending Debian for novices?
Yes its true that Debian is providing a real stable system, but i don't
think its doing much in terms of user-friendliness, what other trends are
driving Linux to Anyhow, this is my personal opinion, maybe they want a
raw distro!

-- 
Shamail Tayyab
shamail [at] inbox.com
4 2 3 2 4 9 9 9 9 9 - 1 9 + (right to left without spaces)
<>
Blog at: http://tuxatwork.blogspot.com
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:23:53 +0530, Kazim Zaidi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> On 13-Nov-07, at 8:13 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> > Could you please elaborate? Do you have specifics in mind
>> > where Debian is either "purist friendly" or not "user friendly", but a
>> > Debian derivative has markedly different behaviour?

> Well, my ignorance doesn't allow me to participate in a flamewar here.

I am sorry to not be able to help you out here.  My desire is to
 have a dialogue, not to engage in flame wars, so if it is a flame you
 desire, you have to look elsewhere.  Why _would_ you prefer us to flame
 each other, though, out of curiosity?

> But the point that I want to convey was that Ubuntu & Debian have very
> different goals. Ubuntu insists on user-friendliness and targets
> desktop users primarily, while Debian would aim for stability and
> originality.

Your claims about the target for Debian come as a surprise to
 me. I have always thought that the goal of Debian was to be the best
 distribution of Linux ever, and sacrificing user friendliness seems to
 be contrary to that goal.

Could you please show me where Debian says it strives solely for
 stability and originality, at the expense of other characteristics?
 Perhaps I am missing out on something here.

> In particular read here http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56

Mark is a fairly new Debian developer, so I would not place a
 great deal of faith in his articulation of what Debian's goals
 are. Indeed, canonical's financial success derives from peoples belief
 that somehow canonical's product line is better than Debian, so ...

As he confesses in that article, he does not really have a good
 handle on what the goals of Debian are. I am there fore overjoyed to
 hear that you have an idea on what Debian wants to do.

Could you please elaborate, perhaps from the writings of someone
 who knows Debian better, what you think Debian's goals are?  I know a
 lot of people who would be very interested.

manoj
-- 
Q: How many IBM CPU's does it take to execute a job? A: Four; three to
hold it down, and one to rip its head off.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kazim Zaidi]

On 13-Nov-07, at 8:13 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> > Could you please elaborate? Do you have specifics in mind
> > where
> >  Debian is either "purist friendly" or not "user friendly", but a
> > Debian
> >  derivative has markedly different behaviour?


Well, my ignorance doesn't allow me to participate in a flamewar here.
But the point that I want to convey was that Ubuntu & Debian have very
different goals. Ubuntu insists on user-friendliness and targets desktop
users
primarily, while Debian would aim for stability and originality.

In particular read here http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56

On 13/11/2007, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> and given that 80% of all traffic on all Indian LUG mailing lists is
> comprised of Ubuntu guys complaining of their problems, I fail to see
> how it can be considered user friendly.

[snip]

Would you also please consider the fact that majority of the newbies
trying out Linux for the first time try Ubuntu? I would argue that at
present,
Ubuntu users across the world are more novice than Debian users.
With Canonical's CD-for-free, Ubuntu has reached more home users
than any other distribution.

Also, being user-friendly and running into problems are different things.
I would like to ask you what's your perspective of user-friendliness.

Again, I'm not equipped for flamebaits. I've had very little experience with
Debian.

- Kazim Zaidi
Blog: http://tuxplayground.blogspot.com
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 13-Nov-07, at 8:13 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>> I don't agree with someone. Some distros (like Slackware & Debian)  
>> are
>> more purist-friendly then others so-called "user-friendly" ones (like
>> Ubuntu).
>
> Could you please elaborate? Do you have specifics in mind  
> where
>  Debian is either "purist friendly" or not "user friendly", but a  
> Debian
>  derivative has markedly different behaviour?

and given that 80% of all traffic on all Indian LUG mailing lists is  
comprised of Ubuntu guys complaining of their problems, I fail to see  
how it can be considered user friendly. I and a circle of friends  
(mainly non IT people) who have been using Mandriva for the past  
three years have *never* approached Mandriva forums with problems.  
Even one guy who has *paid* for Mandriva support.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:46:49 +0530, Kazim Zaidi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> I don't agree with someone. Some distros (like Slackware & Debian) are
> more purist-friendly then others so-called "user-friendly" ones (like
> Ubuntu).  

Could you please elaborate? Do you have specifics in mind where
 Debian is either "purist friendly" or not "user friendly", but a Debian
 derivative has markedly different behaviour?

manoj
-- 
"Stan and I thought that this experiment was so stupid, we decided to
finance it ourselves." -- Martin Fleischmann, co-discoverer of
room-temperature fusion (?)
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Raj Mathur]

On Tuesday 13 November 2007 10:44, मनीष wrote:
> [snip]
> In Dec '03 my system was taken over by virii and I was looking for
> recommendations for a distro when soneone on IRC said "if you want to
> start easy but are willing to face difficulties later, go for $distro
> but if you are willing to put in some effort in the beginning and
> have it easy later, go for Debian".  I still hardly understand
> inernals and intricacies but then I never needed to.
>
> I know above might sound like flamebait but it's really not, I am
> just sharing my enthusiasm for my favourite distro.

Debian *Testing* server, serving multiple HTTP and mail (with anti-spam 
and anti-virus) domains and running multiple CMS's, Wikis, blogs, CVS, 
you name it:

 12:06:20 up 315 days,  2:01,  1 user,  load average: 0.23, 0.21, 0.19

This was Radio Schizoid until the hosting provider decided to pull the 
power plug from it a month ago:

 04:20:02 up 270 days, 19:56,  1 user,  load average: 0.41, 0.40, 0.32

Debian testing again.  If you want stability very few distributions come 
anywhere near Debian IMNSHO.

/me dons his asbestos underwear and waits for the flames.

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
 Freedom in Technology & Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kazim Zaidi]

On 13/11/2007, मनीष <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]

> recommendations for a distro when soneone on IRC said "if you want to
> start easy but are willing to face difficulties later, go for $distro
> but if you are willing to put in some effort in the beginning and have
> it easy later, go for Debian".  I still hardly understand inernals and
> intricacies but then I never needed to.

[snip]

I don't agree with someone. Some distros (like Slackware & Debian) are
more purist-friendly then others so-called "user-friendly" ones (like
Ubuntu).
Facing difficulties, whether sooner or later, entirely depends on
your experience with linux as whole, and not on your distro choice.

Your favourite distro is best for you. BTW, I cannot still understand why
"upgrade gives you a very different system than a fresh install".
I've never took the upgrade route, so I am curious about i pros and cons.


- Kazim Zaidi
Blog: http://tuxplayground.blogspot.com
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 13-Nov-07, at 10:44 AM, मनीष wrote:

>  I migrated to Debian Sid (full-time)
> in Jan '04 and kept upgrading incrementally till I bought a new
> computer a few months ago and I still follow the same routine of
> aptitude update & upgrade as and when I need or fancy.

I do the same with Mandriva - I started with mandriva2007, but now  
most of what I have seems to be 2008. Even kernel has been upgraded a  
couple of times.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[मनीष]

Vikas> Also, it was mentioned in a post as part of this thread how an upgrade
Vikas> gives you a system very different from a fresh install. That is indeed
Vikas> true and, in my view, a weakness that Ubuntu needs to attend
Vikas> to.

I have been watching this thread with interest.  The statement above
has intrigued me but I could not find any details/explanations around
this.  Can someone please tell in what ways will an upgraded and a
fresh installed system differ?  I migrated to Debian Sid (full-time)
in Jan '04 and kept upgrading incrementally till I bought a new
computer a few months ago and I still follow the same routine of
aptitude update & upgrade as and when I need or fancy.  I wonder if I
am missing something here.  I am just an Average Jai luser so I may
not be stressing my system enough.

Vikas> Debian would be better on this. You will never need to do a fresh
Vikas> install of a debian system because upgrade is not as good as a fresh
Vikas> install. My intention is not to get into a debian v/s ubuntu debate.

In Dec '03 my system was taken over by virii and I was looking for
recommendations for a distro when soneone on IRC said "if you want to
start easy but are willing to face difficulties later, go for $distro
but if you are willing to put in some effort in the beginning and have
it easy later, go for Debian".  I still hardly understand inernals and
intricacies but then I never needed to.

I know above might sound like flamebait but it's really not, I am just
sharing my enthusiasm for my favourite distro.

-- 
Manish

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Vikas Rawal]

> For me, the configuration takes about a week. To have a list of
> packages, I usually

Upgrading takes a few hours if you have a good/cheap internet
connection. I understand that you can use the alternate-ubuntu-cd to
upgrade without needing to download everything while upgrading. I
haven't tried this myself though.

In my experience, upgrades do not normally break. And if they do,
Ubuntu fora provide plenty of support.

In fact, I have had a situation when Feisty did not install, but I was
able to upgrade from the previous version.

Vikas



___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kazim Zaidi]

On 12/11/2007, Vikas Rawal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > There's nothing really wrong with that distribution cycle. In fact, time
> > based release cycle is a good balance between features and quality.
> > If you're not able to keep pace with the releases, know that they are
> > supported for 18 months. And the LTS (like Dapper Drake) are supported
> > for 18 months.
>
>
> I could be wrong, and if I am, please do correct me. LTS is supported
> for 18 months. Releases in between are supported for 6 months (isn't
> it).


Well, I quoted that  from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases .  They assert
that LTS is for 3 years.

Also, my experience has been that in case of upgrading (as against fresh
> installation), you have to upgrade to the immediate next release. So
> you would not be able to upgrade from dapper to feisty directly. You
> would have to first upgrade to edgy and then to feisty. Similarly, you
> could upgrade to gutsy only from feisty. There is no way that I know
> of upgrading from edgy to gutsy directly.


You're absolutely right. Like Niyam, I don't upgrade at all. I would do
a fresh installation of Feisty or Grumpy. Upgrades have not been very
successful, many break. And even when upgrading you've to download
a lot. So why not just have a new installation.

Fresh installation would mean that I have to configure all the
> software all over again: postfix, mysql, apacheIt would be a
> really long list, and would take me quite a few days to implement.


For me, the configuration takes about a week. To have a list of
packages, I usually
- (On old system) dpkg --get-selections > ~/myinstalls
- Save the myinstalls file
- ((On new system) dpkg --set-selections < myinstalls
- (On new system) sudo apt-get dselect-upgrade
This relieves me from the pain of reinstalling everything again
manually. Hope it helps someone.

- Kazim Zaidi
Blog: http://tuxplayground.blogspot.com
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Vikas Rawal]

> LTS is Long Term Support - therefore, LTS (U/Kubuntu
> 6.06 is supported upto 2009 (36 months) for security
> (and other) updates fro the desktop edition, whereas
> the server edition is supported upto 2011 (5 years).

What does "support" refer to? That Ubuntu provides security patches
etc. for this period?

The problem still remains that a lot of software gets outdated sooner
than the "long-term" and later versions accessible only through
backports.

I would not want to use 6.06 until 2009, when later and hugely
improved versions of various packages and ubuntu itself are available.

A user has two options: use a long-term version which has a
release cycle of 3/5 years or use short-term versions which have a
release cycle of 6 months. 

Let me reiterate my view: Ubuntu needs medium-term releases with a
more liberal upgrading policy in between these releases. These
medium-term releases should replace the present 6-monthly releases.

Also, it was mentioned in a post as part of this thread how an upgrade
gives you a system very different from a fresh install. That is indeed
true and, in my view, a weakness that Ubuntu needs to attend
to. Debian would be better on this. You will never need to do a fresh
install of a debian system because upgrade is not as good as a fresh
install. My intention is not to get into a debian v/s ubuntu debate.

Vikas

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Roshan]

--- Vikas Rawal wrote:

> I could be wrong, and if I am, please do correct me.
> LTS is supported
> for 18 months. 

[snip...]

LTS is Long Term Support - therefore, LTS (U/Kubuntu
6.06 is supported upto 2009 (36 months) for security
(and other) updates fro the desktop edition, whereas
the server edition is supported upto 2011 (5 years).

BTW, did you have packages on Ubuntu 7.04 other than
the default ones?

--
http://www.gnu.org.in
http://www.somaiya.edu/sksasc
ubunturos @ freenode


  Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to 
http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Vikas Rawal]

> There's nothing really wrong with that distribution cycle. In fact, time
> based release cycle is a good balance between features and quality.
> If you're not able to keep pace with the releases, know that they are
> supported for 18 months. And the LTS (like Dapper Drake) are supported
> for 18 months.


I could be wrong, and if I am, please do correct me. LTS is supported
for 18 months. Releases in between are supported for 6 months (isn't
it). Also, my experience has been that in case of upgrading (as against fresh
installation), you have to upgrade to the immediate next release. So
you would not be able to upgrade from dapper to feisty directly. You
would have to first upgrade to edgy and then to feisty. Similarly, you
could upgrade to gutsy only from feisty. There is no way that I know
of upgrading from edgy to gutsy directly.

Fresh installation would mean that I have to configure all the
software all over again: postfix, mysql, apacheIt would be a
really long list, and would take me quite a few days to implement.


For now, I am okay upgrading every six months.

Somewhat unrelated: I recently upgraded our department server from debian
sarge to debian etch without any trouble and almost without
discontinuing its services. It was really nice to see it happen so
smoothly!!

Vikas





___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22/23, 2008
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Linux Lingam]

On Nov 11, 2007 12:29 PM, Vikas Rawal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > meanwhile, i personally stay away from the 'upgrade distro' route, and
> > just do a fresh install on another partition. this way i can jump back
> > and forth between different versions of ubuntu until it's time to let
> > go of *either* one.
>
>
> I would never be able to manage that!! Ubuntu comes with a new version every
> six months. Installing the OS afresh every six months, and adding all the
> specific software one uses to the default installation, cannot be a great
> way of doing things. [snip]

er.. sorry i forgot to mention i tend to keep just 2 or 3 versions of
ubuntu on my hardisk.
as i watch and finetune the latest one, the one previous to that sits
comfortably in another partition for my work and don't wanna mess with
that. another partition may also contain ubuntustudio.
this setup has so far worked comfortably and have been able to stay
abreast with the latest versions and development while keeping my work
and cilents happy with no downtime on my distro.

:-)
niyam

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Sahil Dave]

On Nov 11, 2007 6:36 PM, Kazim Zaidi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 11/11/2007, Vikas Rawal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I really think these big distribution upgrades every six months are a
> > nuisance. They need to have a strategy that allows more gradual upgrades
> > for
> > about two years, and then perhaps do a full distribution change. I
> really
> > wish Ubuntu stayed closer to Debian on some of these basic things.
>
>
>
> > Vikas
>
>
> There's nothing really wrong with that distribution cycle. In fact, time
> based release cycle is a good balance between features and quality.
> If you're not able to keep pace with the releases, know that they are
> supported for 18 months. And the LTS (like Dapper Drake) are supported
> for 18 months.
> So there's no good reason to upgrade every six months. In fact, I
> alternately
> upgrade my system (every 12 months). I skipped Edgy, and I'll skip Gutsy
> too.
>
i still using Fiesty as well.. i have always ordered the ubuntu cds, and
whenever the cd gets delivered i upgrade..!!



-- 
Sahil

MCA(SE)
USIT
GGSIPU, Kashmere Gate
Delhi
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Kazim Zaidi]

On 11/11/2007, Vikas Rawal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I really think these big distribution upgrades every six months are a
> nuisance. They need to have a strategy that allows more gradual upgrades
> for
> about two years, and then perhaps do a full distribution change. I really
> wish Ubuntu stayed closer to Debian on some of these basic things.



> Vikas


There's nothing really wrong with that distribution cycle. In fact, time
based release cycle is a good balance between features and quality.
If you're not able to keep pace with the releases, know that they are
supported for 18 months. And the LTS (like Dapper Drake) are supported
for 18 months.
So there's no good reason to upgrade every six months. In fact, I
alternately
upgrade my system (every 12 months). I skipped Edgy, and I'll skip Gutsy
too.

- Kazim Zaidi
Blog: http://tuxplayground.blogspot.com/
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Vikas Rawal]

> meanwhile, i personally stay away from the 'upgrade distro' route, and
> just do a fresh install on another partition. this way i can jump back
> and forth between different versions of ubuntu until it's time to let
> go of *either* one.


I would never be able to manage that!! Ubuntu comes with a new version every
six months. Installing the OS afresh every six months, and adding all the
specific software one uses to the default installation, cannot be a great
way of doing things. I installed dapper drake on my machine, and have
upgraded since to edgy, feisty and gutsy. If I were required to do fresh
installation every six months, I will look for another distribution.

I really think these big distribution upgrades every six months are a
nuisance. They need to have a strategy that allows more gradual upgrades for
about two years, and then perhaps do a full distribution change. I really
wish Ubuntu stayed closer to Debian on some of these basic things.

Vikas
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

Re: [ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Linux Lingam]

On Nov 8, 2007 7:42 PM, Vaibhav Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Members,
> I am trying to update my UBUNTU but due to some bugs this hasn't been
> possible.
> The update manager says "Cannot download prerequisites" while being in the
> first step i.e. Preparing for upgrade.
>
> Please respond if you have any solutions or suggestions.

get an account, and get quality-assistance and response from launchpad.net

your feedback will also help to fix the problem for thousands of others.

meanwhile, i personally stay away from the 'upgrade distro' route, and
just do a fresh install on another partition. this way i can jump back
and forth between different versions of ubuntu until it's time to let
go of *either* one.

:-)
niyam

___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/

[ilugd] Cannot upgrade ubuntu from fiesty fawn(7.04) to Gutsy Gibbon(7.10)

[Vaibhav Singh]

Hello Members,
I am trying to update my UBUNTU but due to some bugs this hasn't been
possible.
The update manager says "Cannot download prerequisites" while being in the
first step i.e. Preparing for upgrade.

Please respond if you have any solutions or suggestions.

Regards

Vaibhav Singh
Final Year
Department of Electronics and Communication
RKGIT

-- 
"My mother said to me, "If you are a soldier, you will become a general. If
you are a monk, you will become the Pope." Instead, I was a painter, and
became Picasso." Pablo Picasso.
___
ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Next Event: http://freed.in - September 28-29, 2007
Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi 
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/