KR>assembly plant
Who is aeroen...@aol.com. I wish people on the net would give us the courtesy of a signature block Robert J. (Jack) Cooper CW-4 retired kr2coo...@earthlink.net http://www.jackandsandycoooper.com/kr2 Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 9/1/03 2:18:14 PM > Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > Mr. Brigadier General wrote: > > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > building process and realize that the more I know, the > better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an > option. > > Reply: > I've been reading all the hoopla about a factory for the Kr. I enjoy the KR > Net. I receive great amounts of info. (Special thanks to Mark Langford, Dana > Overall), If there is true intent to be conjoined with Jeanette R then Mr. > Brigadier should be seeking a forum with her alone. > > My personal opinion is backed up by 20 years pure aviation. I have flown for > the Military for 10 as a Chief Warrant Officer. I have flown literally half > way around the world with 5 years over sea's even with the unfortunate > experience of going down twice. I was responsible for saving the lives of my crew and > most of my ship anyway. Of course the engine and transmission were toast. But > those that flew with me as well as myself (obviously) are still walking Gods > green earth. No medals, I did what the military trained me to do and I know I've > received the best flight training in the world. I was trained by Vietnam > veterans. > > I am licensed and qualified in both Helicopter (Huey's to the Apache) and > fixed wing. I have been slowly but surely, building my KR2S for KR netters > obvious reasons. > > I am not currently an engineer. But have been enrolled as a full time student > for the past 20 months majoring in Aerospace Engineering. With the past 5 > years as a Senior Technical writer within the Aerospace Industry. > > In my own experience, I have built them, fixed them, flown them till they > broke apart "literally", studied them, and have been writing the books on them. > > I chose this aircraft for all the reasons everyone else has. Because I love > to fly. It is not only what I do, but it is who I am. As it is for all those > that love the experience and true freedom of flight. > > Being a military man I am not surprised if Mr. Brigadier is a general. > > First of all, to even think of putting all that garbage on a well proven > platform until it is no longer a kit aircraft, until it is no longer simple to > build, until it is so heavy that it can't get off the ground and finally until it > is no longer affordable, is just like the military. > > Second, if Mr. Brigadier is a general, being a military man myself, I know > the only thing he flew for the 30 years was a desk. He may have his wings, but > that doesn't mean he actually flew. I know when my general got in my bird, I > didn't allow him to even operate the radio, and I "was" in an aviation unit. > > This aircraft I chose because I wanted to create a flying machine that would > incorporate not only the proven sound engineering of RR, but also my own > knowledge of flight experience as well as my personality. A few Pre-fabricated > parts are nice, but there still is the 51% rule to contend with as well. > > Lastly, my ethics, morality, integrity, character and tenacity to attempt to > achieve flight by my own fabrication have been shaped by the purity of the > love for flying and the machines that allow me to cheat the bounds of gravity. > > I believe that all those that are involved with this KR net forum, carry > these same traits and would speak to them as brothers of a common and noble quest. > > To Mr. Brigadier, the KR is a bird whose feathers were meant to be shaped by > the sole hands of each individual of whom so ever ventures to join in this > quest of personal accomplishment in bringing out the eagle within usas > individuals. > > If all of us did want a factory built aircraft,...we would..buy > Cessna. > > The journey of building the KR to reach the clouds, is what makes playing in > them, so great. > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Count me in the Konga Line! --- Dana Overall wrote: > RV, the general has done so little homework you > would probably spend more > time in doing so than he has done in preparation for > his post. General, we > really are not bashing for the sake of bashing it is > just so painfully > obvious you have not done a bit of homework. Man, > if you can do this for > less than a couple million (look an Lancair, it > almost sent them into > bankruptcy) and in less than 5 years I'll make a > promise...Upon > reaching youjr 1st. year in operation anniversary, > I'll dance naked in the > street in front of your airplane factory until I get > thrown in a Mexican > jail. Anybody care to join me and make a kanga > line?? > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" > Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar > flying my Dynon. > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > > > > > >From: ronev...@aol.com > >Reply-To: KR builders and pilots > >To: kr...@mylist.net > >Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:53:25 EDT > > > >Netters; > > My room mate from flight school is now a > colonel in the USMC. I can > >check, through him, so see if "The General" was > really in the Corps, or if > >he was > >a phony. Anyone interested? > > > >RV > >___ > >see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > _ > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html = Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cab...@yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
O.K. Fellows, Most of you have given the good General a proper dressing down several times over now. I have a revision to his business plan to propose. 1. Clients buy plans from R. R. & the widow makes a decent living. 2. Gen. Locker sets up his KR factory near a resort such as acapulco or Puerto Villarta. 3. Clients fly into Mexico and check into a good hotel near the factory. They "work" 8 hours a day along side the General's army of Mexicans (who do all the stoop work such as sanding.) The General provides cheap Mexican parts. Don't they still make VW bugs in Mexico? Isn't drift wood as strong as spruce? 4. Clients save a lot of money on this fast build program. That savings almost covers the cost of Tequila and Senioritas. (You were wondering what they were doing the other 16 hours in a day?) 5. The client flies off his required 40 hours by pulling tourists in parachutes. After all, isn't a KR as good as a motor boat for this? 6. The client, who built more than 51%, can then cross country the thing home. No, KR's usually don't get over 14,000 feet but the General's custom oxygen system is great for recovering from the Tequila hangover. All this ought to take about 60 days in Mexico and cost around ten grand more than building a KR at home in the garage. (Not counting the cost of tequila and senioritas) ;-|}. Anybody got a better idea? Regards, Dean Allen __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
- Original Message - From: "Aggie lewanda" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:45 PM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > O.K. Fellows, > > Most of you have given the good General a proper dressing down > several times over now. I have a revision to his business > plan to propose. > > 1. Clients buy plans from R. R. & the widow makes a decent living. > > 2. Gen. Locker sets up his KR factory near a resort such as >acapulco or Puerto Villarta. > > 3. Clients fly into Mexico and check into a good hotel near the >factory. They "work" 8 hours a day along side the General's >army of Mexicans (who do all the stoop work such as sanding.) >The General provides cheap Mexican parts. > >Don't they still make VW bugs in Mexico? > >Isn't drift wood as strong as spruce? > > 4. Clients save a lot of money on this fast build program. >That savings almost covers the cost of Tequila and Senioritas. >(You were wondering what they were doing the other 16 hours in a day?) > > 5. The client flies off his required 40 hours by pulling tourists >in parachutes. After all, isn't a KR as good as a motor boat for this? > > 6. The client, who built more than 51%, can then cross country >the thing home. No, KR's usually don't get over 14,000 feet >but the General's custom oxygen system is great for recovering >from the Tequila hangover. > > All this ought to take about 60 days in Mexico and cost around ten > grand more than building a KR at home in the garage. (Not counting > the cost of tequila and senioritas) ;-|}. > > Anybody got a better idea? > > Regards, > > Dean Allen > > > finially a smart one in the bunch!!!2cents worth from george v..we should set this up ourselves. all of us in the northern climiates would love to spend two weeks in mazatland and build our kr's. what a brilliant idea! let's hear some comments on it. > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html >
KR>assembly plant
I have added an inbox rule to dump all messages with the subject "assembly plant". nuff. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC da...@kr-builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org
KR>assembly plant
"The General's army of Mexicans" In French, we call a "Mexican Army" an army that has got more generals than soldiers, or by extension, any organization with more bosses than workers. Serge Vidal Tunis, Tunisia -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Aggie lewanda Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:46 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant O.K. Fellows, Most of you have given the good General a proper dressing down several times over now. I have a revision to his business plan to propose. 1. Clients buy plans from R. R. & the widow makes a decent living. 2. Gen. Locker sets up his KR factory near a resort such as acapulco or Puerto Villarta. 3. Clients fly into Mexico and check into a good hotel near the factory. They "work" 8 hours a day along side the General's army of Mexicans (who do all the stoop work such as sanding.) The General provides cheap Mexican parts. Don't they still make VW bugs in Mexico? Isn't drift wood as strong as spruce? 4. Clients save a lot of money on this fast build program. That savings almost covers the cost of Tequila and Senioritas. (You were wondering what they were doing the other 16 hours in a day?) 5. The client flies off his required 40 hours by pulling tourists in parachutes. After all, isn't a KR as good as a motor boat for this? 6. The client, who built more than 51%, can then cross country the thing home. No, KR's usually don't get over 14,000 feet but the General's custom oxygen system is great for recovering from the Tequila hangover. All this ought to take about 60 days in Mexico and cost around ten grand more than building a KR at home in the garage. (Not counting the cost of tequila and senioritas) ;-|}. Anybody got a better idea? Regards, Dean Allen __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Just FYI, "gerald locker" has unsubscribed from KRnet. He sure was entertaining, though... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
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--- Mark Langford wrote: > Just FYI, "gerald locker" > has unsubscribed from > KRnet. He sure was entertaining, though... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > N56ML at hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford Dear Mr. Langford, Would you be so kind as to tell me why I am unsubscribed from this group? I certainly did not do so and wonder why after one letter, and over 60 responses, of which most was helpful, I am no longer a part of this group? Thank you for your assistance, Gerald Locker > > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
Gerald Locker wrote: > Dear Mr. Langford, > > Would you be so kind as to tell me why I am > unsubscribed from this group? I certainly did not do > so and wonder why after one letter, and over 60 > responses, of which most was helpful, I am no longer a > part of this group? > > Thank you for your assistance, Oh, I guess you're not unsubscribed after all. I didn't deliberately unsubscribe you, but upon checking the list, I didn't see your email address, so I thought you'd unsubscribed yourself. That's why I thought it was noteworthy, that you'd gone as fast as you appeared. Obviously, I was wrong about that, as your post makes it clear that you've not unsubscribed... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets
Dear Gen. Locker, I sure hope that you and your partner's pockets are REALLY deep. In case you were not aware: The KR Series aircraft are homebuilt experimental category aircraft. If you plan on selling completed aircraft as stated earlier, the FAA would require you to certify this aircraft per FAR23 for Utility Aircraft, and only use certified aircraft components FAR 21-23. Or you could spend the time and mega-bucks to go through the process of certifying a VW or other automotive based engine. (not likely). Also you will need to get Import Airworthiness Approval: "This approval (documentation) is required for airworthiness certification of aircraft, engines, propellers, materials, parts, and appliances imported into the United States from any country that has a bilateral agreement with the United States." Type in qutes were copied directly from: http://www2.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/ The reason why most General Aviation aircraft are so expensive, is that they have completed a rigorous certification process, and all of their components have underwent a similar certification process. So if you would like to continue in this venture, you are most certainly going to need to employ several qualified Strength Engineers, several Quality Control engineers, and several Liason engineers, for at least 24 months just to get started. It is certainly generous of you to offer the KR community TYPE certification, thankfully,most KR builders will be able to have their aircraft certified as type by being able to prove similar build methods and materials. Wow, no more experimental placards, lower insurance. While you are at with those deep pockets, I'm an Aerospace Design Engineer, have my MRB, and am also a KR builder. If you're hiring, are you offering benefits? I'll need 3 weeks paid vacation, full medical and dental, 401k...Matching up to 7%? = Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cab...@yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets
Scott, You are correct about everything you said to General Locker except the reason for certified aircraft being so high in price. Part of the reason of course is inflation but the real reason is law suits against aircraft manufactures. When I learned to fly way back in 1973 I could have bought a Cesna Skyhawk equiped for VFR flight for about $28,000.00 Now the same aircraft is more that $125,000.00 and the price increase is to cover the cost of paying judgments. Many aircraft manufactures stopped producing small aircraft for about ten years because of the damages they were having to pay out. This is also the reason so many people who want an aircraft and want to save money are buying a kit, taking it to one of the many so called business that advertise they will help. The aircraft is built almost l00% by the business and the customer is listed as the builder. Since the owner is shown on all the paperwork as the builder, he can sue no one if he has a accident. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rsto...@hot.rr.com - Original Message - From: "Scott Cable" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: RE: KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets > Dear Gen. Locker, > I sure hope that you and your partner's pockets are > REALLY deep. > In case you were not aware: The KR Series aircraft are > homebuilt experimental category aircraft. > If you plan on selling completed aircraft as stated > earlier, the FAA would require you to certify this > aircraft per FAR23 for Utility Aircraft, and only use > certified aircraft components FAR 21-23. Or you could > spend the time and mega-bucks to go through the > process of certifying a VW or other automotive based > engine. (not likely). Also you will need to get > Import Airworthiness Approval: "This approval > (documentation) is required for airworthiness > certification of aircraft, engines, propellers, > materials, parts, and appliances imported into the > United States from any country that has a > bilateral agreement with the United States." > Type in qutes were copied directly from: > http://www2.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/ > > The reason why most General Aviation aircraft are so > expensive, is that they have completed a rigorous > certification process, and all of their components > have underwent a similar certification process. > > So if you would like to continue in this venture, > you are most certainly going to need to employ several > qualified Strength Engineers, several Quality Control > engineers, and several Liason engineers, for at least > 24 months just to get started. > It is certainly generous of you to offer the KR > community TYPE certification, thankfully,most KR > builders will be able to have their aircraft certified > as type by being able to prove similar build methods > and materials. Wow, no more experimental placards, > lower insurance. > While you are at with those deep pockets, I'm an > Aerospace Design Engineer, have my MRB, and am also a > KR builder. If you're hiring, are you offering > benefits? I'll need 3 weeks paid vacation, full > medical and dental, 401k...Matching up to 7%? > > > = > Scott Cable > KR-2S # 735 > Linden, MI > s2cab...@yahoo.com > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Netters; My room mate from flight school is now a colonel in the USMC. I can check, through him, so see if "The General" was really in the Corps, or if he was a phony. Anyone interested? RV
KR>assembly plant
RV, the general has done so little homework you would probably spend more time in doing so than he has done in preparation for his post. General, we really are not bashing for the sake of bashing it is just so painfully obvious you have not done a bit of homework. Man, if you can do this for less than a couple million (look an Lancair, it almost sent them into bankruptcy) and in less than 5 years I'll make a promise...Upon reaching youjr 1st. year in operation anniversary, I'll dance naked in the street in front of your airplane factory until I get thrown in a Mexican jail. Anybody care to join me and make a kanga line?? Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: ronev...@aol.com >Reply-To: KR builders and pilots >To: kr...@mylist.net >Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:53:25 EDT > >Netters; > My room mate from flight school is now a colonel in the USMC. I can >check, through him, so see if "The General" was really in the Corps, or if >he was >a phony. Anyone interested? > >RV >___ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html _ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
KR>assembly plant
..Upon >reaching youjr 1st. year in operation anniversary, I'll dance naked in the >street in front of your airplane factory until I get thrown in a Mexican >jail. Anybody care to join me and make a kanga line?? >>Dana Overall ++ Not if you really plan to do it NAKED I won't and I've heard stories about those Mexican jails !! :-) Larry Flesner
KR>assembly plant
This...debate?...curiouser and curiouser. I've been an entrepreneur all of my life; ideas appear and then things are made to happen, sometimes it is a great leap forward, sometimes it's like tumbling down a hill. But it is movement, not static, and usually exciting as hell. I seem to be witnessing a bunch of gut reactions, little thought or circumspection. Would certainly have expected better from dreamers that build their dreams and make them happen. If you (the few, not all, responders to Gerald Locker) had approached his seeming intrusion into the KR world as you would a technical sticking point with a KR building procedure it would have been criticized a little, analyzed a lot, and hopefully with or without a consensus there'd be no harm, no foul. We'd all keep going forward. I'm aware that the initial post from the 'General' seemed somewhat naive in several respects. I personally have to assume that he arrived here well intentioned and probably expected to be welcomed in a spirit of camaraderie and fellowship. He hasn't demonstrated any ill will; he has demonstrated a desire to have a piece of the pie. . .and a desire to become more knowledgeable about the KR. I think we all kind of are in that category. This list right now is the Mecca for KR builders, and rightly so. There is more access here to real and varied knowledge of the KR then anywhere else that I'm aware of. Where else should this man have gone.? Stephen Mines/KR2 saltmi...@aol.com PS: At the ridiculous amount of money that I pay myself, this is a helluva lot more than my 2 cents worth, but seemed right to say it.
KR>assembly plant
In a message dated 9/3/03 12:50:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ronev...@aol.com writes: > Subj: Re: KR>assembly plant > Date: 9/3/03 12:50:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time > From: mailto:ronev...@aol.com";>ronev...@aol.com > Reply-to: mailto:kr...@mylist.net";>kr...@mylist.net > To: mailto:kr...@mylist.net";>kr...@mylist.net > Sent from the Internet > > > > Netters; >My room mate from flight school is now a colonel in the USMC. I can > check, through him, so see if "The General" was really in the Corps, or if > he was > a phony. Anyone interested? > > RV > ___ > Sure, we could call the inquiry "Thunder On Sycamore Street" or "The Crucible". Rake all the muck you have the stomach for, just don't ask me to shovel alongside. Stephen Mines/KR2 saltmi...@aol.com
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>From: saltmi...@aol.com >This list right now is the Mecca for KR builders, and rightly so. There is >more access here to real and varied knowledge of the KR then anywhere else >that >I'm aware of. Where else should this man have gone.? > >Stephen Mines/KR2 >saltmi...@aol.com While I agree wholeheartedly, a little prior research...even just a little, would have been more than appropriate. If he can pull this off, more power too him. I think he has been provided a wealth of information already. Look at most of the posts, there are ideas, thoughts and forwarnings of prior failures and potholes to avoid. If you look at most of the posts, there is valuable business information therein that was excluded from his initial and subsequent posts. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
KR>assembly plant
DEAR LIST MANAGER HAVE I DONE SOMETHING WRONG AS WELL? I ATTEMPTED TO POST A THOUGHT REGARDING GENERAL LOCKER'S POST, AND WAS REJECTED SUMMARILY. MAX HARDBERGER - Original Message - From: To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > This...debate?...curiouser and curiouser. > > I've been an entrepreneur all of my life; ideas appear and then things are > made to happen, sometimes it is a great leap forward, sometimes it's like > tumbling down a hill. > > But it is movement, not static, and usually exciting as hell. > > I seem to be witnessing a bunch of gut reactions, little thought or > circumspection. > > Would certainly have expected better from dreamers that build their dreams > and make them happen. If you (the few, not all, responders to Gerald Locker) > had approached his seeming intrusion into the KR world as you would a technical > sticking point with a KR building procedure it would have been criticized a > little, analyzed a lot, and hopefully with or without a consensus there'd be no > harm, no foul. We'd all keep going forward. > > I'm aware that the initial post from the 'General' seemed somewhat naive in > several respects. I personally have to assume that he arrived here well > intentioned and probably expected to be welcomed in a spirit of camaraderie and > fellowship. He hasn't demonstrated any ill will; he has demonstrated a desire to > have a piece of the pie. . .and a desire to become more knowledgeable about > the KR. I think we all kind of are in that category. > > This list right now is the Mecca for KR builders, and rightly so. There is > more access here to real and varied knowledge of the KR then anywhere else that > I'm aware of. Where else should this man have gone.? > > Stephen Mines/KR2 > saltmi...@aol.com > > PS: At the ridiculous amount of money that I pay myself, this is a helluva > lot more than my 2 cents worth, but seemed right to say it. > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > >
KR>assembly plant
SORRY, MY LAST POST APPEARED. HERE IS THE TEXT OF A PREVIOUS POST: The brigadier may have been misguided and have approached the project bass-ackward, but Sport Plane regulations are coming, and, like it or not, foreign-manufactured aircraft (completed, not kits) are coming. In fact, I am now working with a Ukrainian manufacturer who is looking to get his two-place taildragger approved for import when the SP regulations are implemented. For the same reasons that the members of this group have chosen the KR design, foreign manufacturers looking for a popular design to convert to assembly-line production methods will probably consider the KR as well as other present "homebuilt" designs. The appeal of an aircraft for a manufacturer lies in its lines and performance, not in its construction material or methods, which, in any case, would be radically altered in the process of tooling up for volume manufacturing. There are a number of advanced techniques gaining acceptance among manufacturers of lightweight, high-power vehicles, including vacuum-bagging and automated panel-lamination. Advances in injection molding--and particularly in strength-of-materials for non-fiber-reinforced plastics--will probably allow, in the near future, for non-labor-intensive construction of molded fuselage panels and perhaps even wings and control surfaces. Although the tooling and start-up costs for this kind of manufacturing will probably always be beyond the reach of homebuilders, they do make sense for manufacturers. Such advances, and the advantages of pre-tooling and computer-controlled cutting, may even make the production aircraft lighter and more accurately built than the average homebuilt KR. Further, the lines of the KR-2/2S appear suitable to such techniques, being relatively clean and free of protrubrances. The questions of quality control and commitment to safety are properly answered by examining the corporate philosophy of the manufacturer and his technical and financial resources. There are many Russian and Ukrainian aircraft, for example, that have stood the test of time and have proven safe and reliable aircraft, all (gasp!) without FAA intervention or regulation. Certainly there is nothing improper in a prospective manufacturer exploring the possibilities of taking advantage of the new sport-plane regulations by investigating existing designs before reinventing the wheel, as long as he makes the proper arrangements with the owner of any design he decides to use. It's just that he should bring aircraft manufacturing expertise to the project, and not alienate those in a position to help him by showing his lack of knowledge, i.e., by pronouncing an intention to put a fixed O2 system in a low-altitude aircraft. Max Hardberger Admiralty Associates LLC (877) 732-5298 tel. (562) 684-4539 fax
KR>assembly plant
Hey Dana, Only if you wear a skirt first! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html - Original Message - From: "Dana Overall" > Upon > reaching youjr 1st. year in operation anniversary, I'll dance naked in the > street in front of your airplane factory until I get thrown in a Mexican > jail. Anybody care to join me and make a kanga line?? > >
KR>assembly plant
I thought we were open to anyone that is interested in KR's Give him a fair go. Phil Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au VH-PKR ( reserved) 61 3 58833588 See our VW Engines and Home built web page at http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
KR>assembly plant
Gee whiz Max, you don't have to shout. Lynn DEAR LIST MANAGER HAVE I DONE SOMETHING WRONG AS WELL? I ATTEMPTED TO POST A THOUGHT REGARDING GENERAL LOCKER'S POST, AND WAS REJECTED SUMMARILY. MAX HARDBERGER
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> Gee whiz Max, you don't have to shout. Lynn Yep, I never cease to be amazed at how quick people ASSume that I've deliberately done something to step on their freedom of speech... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
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I'm sorry, I didn't intend to shout. Many of my clients are not native English speakers, and I sometimes type in capitals for clarity. I meant nothing more. Since this is the only list I've ever been on, I didn't realize that capitals would be taken as "shouting." Max
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Dear Mark Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am the ASS. I have not accused anyone of stepping on my freedom of speed, I just wondered why my post was rejected. I don't know anything about posts, and when the general said that he'd been "delisted" I thought maybe I had been also. As I have explained, I meant nothing by using capitals--in the shipping business, where telexes were our means of communication for many years, that was all we had--and I certainly didn't intend to shout. That said, however, I am not accustomed to being called an ass, and I certainly wouldn't call someone that under similar circumstances. Max Hardberger
KR>assembly plant
Everyonetake a chill pill. Remember we are all KR family and are here for one common reason. To learn about and build and fly KR's. Nothing else. All siblings have their spats and opinions. Look, listen , learn. KISS...keep it simple and safe. Remember the old saying "don't worry, be happy"? The gathering is a week away. WoH Keep Smiling and think gathering. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html - Original Message - From: "Max Hardberger" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 8:46 PM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > Dear Mark > > Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am the > ASS. I have not accused anyone of stepping on my freedom of speed, I just > wondered why my post was rejected. I don't know anything about posts, and > when the general said that he'd been "delisted" I thought maybe I had been > also. As I have explained, I meant nothing by using capitals--in the > shipping business, where telexes were our means of communication for many > years, that was all we had--and I certainly didn't intend to shout. > > That said, however, I am not accustomed to being called an ass, and I > certainly wouldn't call someone that under similar circumstances. > > Max Hardberger > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
>From: "Max Hardberger" >Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am >the >ASS. Dear Max, I common sense assume (no pun intended) that Mark was using the universally accepted play on words on you use of assume. If you haven't heard the saying it follows: "When you assume you make an ass out of ...u...and...me.put them together and you get assume. I assume he was not calling you an ass. Lighten up and have a beer, better yet I'll lighten up and have a beer:-) Come to think of that dancing thingheck, I don't think my wife of 23 years would even want to see such a thing. I guess that would warrant Mexican jail time Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
KR>assembly plant
Don't feel bad; Mark gets a bit upset at times. ;o) Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiber...@swfla.rr.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Max Hardberger Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 8:46 PM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant Dear Mark Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am the ASS. I have not accused anyone of stepping on my freedom of speed, I just wondered why my post was rejected. I don't know anything about posts, and when the general said that he'd been "delisted" I thought maybe I had been also. As I have explained, I meant nothing by using capitals--in the shipping business, where telexes were our means of communication for many years, that was all we had--and I certainly didn't intend to shout. That said, however, I am not accustomed to being called an ass, and I certainly wouldn't call someone that under similar circumstances. Max Hardberger ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Dana; maybe we could sell tickets; I'd sure buy one. Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiber...@swfla.rr.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Dana Overall Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:12 PM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant >From: "Max Hardberger" >Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am >the >ASS. Dear Max, I common sense assume (no pun intended) that Mark was using the universally accepted play on words on you use of assume. If you haven't heard the saying it follows: "When you assume you make an ass out of ...u...and...me.put them together and you get assume. I assume he was not calling you an ass. Lighten up and have a beer, better yet I'll lighten up and have a beer:-) Come to think of that dancing thingheck, I don't think my wife of 23 years would even want to see such a thing. I guess that would warrant Mexican jail time Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
--- Max Hardberger wrote: > SORRY, MY LAST POST APPEARED. HERE IS THE TEXT OF A > PREVIOUS POST: > > The brigadier may have been misguided and have > approached the project > bass-ackward, but Sport Plane regulations are > coming, and, like it or not, > foreign-manufactured aircraft (completed, not kits) > are coming. In fact, I > am now working with a Ukrainian manufacturer who is > looking to get his > two-place taildragger approved for import when the > SP regulations are > implemented. > > For the same reasons that the members of this group > have chosen the KR > design, foreign manufacturers looking for a popular > design to convert to > assembly-line production methods will probably > consider the KR as well as > other present "homebuilt" designs. The appeal of an > aircraft for a > manufacturer lies in its lines and performance, not > in its construction > material or methods, which, in any case, would be > radically altered in the > process of tooling up for volume manufacturing. > > There are a number of advanced techniques gaining > acceptance among > manufacturers of lightweight, high-power vehicles, > including vacuum-bagging > and automated panel-lamination. Advances in > injection molding--and > particularly in strength-of-materials for > non-fiber-reinforced > plastics--will probably allow, in the near future, > for non-labor-intensive > construction of molded fuselage panels and perhaps > even wings and control > surfaces. Although the tooling and start-up costs > for this kind of > manufacturing will probably always be beyond the > reach of homebuilders, they > do make sense for manufacturers. Such advances, and > the advantages of > pre-tooling and computer-controlled cutting, may > even make the production > aircraft lighter and more accurately built than the > average homebuilt KR. > > Further, the lines of the KR-2/2S appear suitable to > such techniques, being > relatively clean and free of protrubrances. The > questions of quality control > and commitment to safety are properly answered by > examining the corporate > philosophy of the manufacturer and his technical and > financial resources. > There are many Russian and Ukrainian aircraft, for > example, that have stood > the test of time and have proven safe and reliable > aircraft, all (gasp!) > without FAA intervention or regulation. > > Certainly there is nothing improper in a prospective > manufacturer exploring > the possibilities of taking advantage of the new > sport-plane regulations by > investigating existing designs before reinventing > the wheel, as long as he > makes the proper arrangements with the owner of any > design he decides to > use. It's just that he should bring aircraft > manufacturing expertise to the > project, and not alienate those in a position to > help him by showing his > lack of knowledge, i.e., by pronouncing an intention > to put a fixed O2 > system in a low-altitude aircraft. > > Max Hardberger > Admiralty Associates LLC > (877) 732-5298 tel. > (562) 684-4539 fax Dear Max, Let me explain again. I never said I was going to put a fixed oxygen system in the plane...only that I wanted a system (portable) that would be one of the standard features for our markteting pitch, along with the BRS, and a transponder. I am also not a novice in the business as I set up and ran the lightaircraft manufacturing plant in Bahrain under the auspices of the Royal family. These, however were all kits and high wing, and everything that was needed was supplied. What I am asking are things about the differences in the VW 1835 and the 2100 as well as the Revmaster, and the aerovee, and the rotax 914. Since the information is almost non-existent coming from Jeanette as we have sent faxs, and telephone calls to her for a meeting with her and to no avail. As for paying royalties, that would depend if we were planning on making our own from the plans, or continue buying the various components that are available. I am totally amazed that people can be so childish as if I am stepping on anyones toes. It is going to be done in Mexico and I want my partner and I to be the forerunner for this. Who ever does this first, and carefully, will be in the driver's seat. I have found some things that Jeanette does not mention about the KR and it is a bit distrubing, especially in the weight loads for the KR-2 and KR-2S which seems to be a lot higher than what it really is. We will obviously have to curtail some of the instruments we wanted on it and I am grateful for those that mentioned about these things. I passed on your name, company, and email, as well as fax and tel. to Mike. I am sure he will contact you, if nothing else but to touch base. Sincerely, Gerald Locker > > > > > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design softwar
KR>assembly plant
> along with >the BRS, Add 2 feet to each wing + a 12 in. winglet mounted at a 45 degree angle would substantially increase either the lift capability or reduce the stall speed. The BRS creates a weight penalty that is unacceptable in a lightweight like the KR2. >and a transponder. I am also not a novice in >the business as I set up and ran the lightaircraft >manufacturing plant in Bahrain under the auspices of >the Royal family. These, however were all kits and >high wing, and everything that was needed was >supplied. >What I am asking are things about the differences in >the VW 1835 Using the 1835 engine would not substantially lower the engine weight, but it would reduce the power available. With the longer wing, it would create a plane that had a low stall speed and a restricted cruise speed that could possibly meet the coming sport plane regs. >and the 2100 as well as the Revmaster, and >the aerovee, and the rotax 914. Since the information >is almost non-existent coming from Jeanette as we have >sent faxs, and telephone calls to her for a meeting >with her and to no avail. As for paying royalties, >that would depend if we were planning on making our >own from the plans, or continue buying the various >components that are available. I am totally amazed >that people can be so childish as if I am stepping on >anyones toes. Sorry, homebuilders are proud of their independence and resist trivializing what they are doing. They are also used to being frustrated in their efforts to gain easy knowledge as to techniques. This frustration shows up in what you call childish responses. Unfortunately, I am just as guilty as the rest of them a good part of the time. >It is going to be done in Mexico and I >want my partner and I to be the forerunner for this. >Who ever does this first, and carefully, will be in >the driver's seat. I have found some things that >Jeanette does not mention about the KR and it is a bit >distrubing, especially in the weight loads for the >KR-2 and KR-2S which seems to be a lot higher than >what it really is. No, the plane can actually achieve the weights given. They are facts from the original KR2 built and flown by the designer. Because he was highly experienced in model building and resisted the desire to put in all sorts of excess equipment (for day VFR), he able to produce a strong a/c with out excess weight that met all of the specs listed. Most builders fail to match his figures because they: 1. over build the parts (weight) 2. add unneeded equipment, especially IFR (weight) Unfortunately, the plane that I am finishing came with an overbuilt boat stage and wings. I doubt that I will be able to finish it at under 600 lbs. That is why I will be extending the wings and adding winglets. I recognize that I will have additional parasite drag, but my wife and I will be able to take a load of fuel and still go a reasonable distance. >We will obviously have to curtail >some of the instruments we wanted on it and I am >grateful for those that mentioned about these things. I do not pretend to be an expert, but I do have 14,000+ hours of military and airline experience, plus aeronautics studies and wind tunnel testing in college. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 lar...@socal.rr.com
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Hi listers, As some of you may be know, I am more listener than reader, so rarely I try to ask some things here. Some time I have a very good answers, but many times just a chatter... Most of you experienced and less experienced builder think that every body know all you know (what is the stupid question about Fiberglas or epoxy :-) What I want to say, are you crazy for your neighbour just for that you are home builder? Why the general should be crazy for us? Sorry, you are great people, just some time we could not listen each other. There is one science fiction story about a team of scientist, they have a task to invent some things impossible. The reason for this was a short movie with this invention, but unfortunately his inventor crashed and dead. Nothing remains, just a short move. While most of scientist spent all the time to demonstrate this is impossible, a couple of them did that. But not as in that movie, more expensive and not portable :-) When they reported about their progress, they just say sorry, we could not create, at list now, more portable and less expensive. What was the answer? Thanks a lot! In reality there was nothing, the movie was a fiction, just for though, noting more. Our hopes were for people as you, who will try despite the fact that it is impossible. Not for those scientist who know very good the theory and do not try to think may be there is some thing wrong? BR, Alex Birca Moldova -Original Message- From: gerald locker [mailto:brigadier192...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:00 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant --- Max Hardberger wrote: > SORRY, MY LAST POST APPEARED. HERE IS THE TEXT OF A > PREVIOUS POST: > > The brigadier may have been misguided and have > approached the project > bass-ackward, but Sport Plane regulations are > coming, and, like it or not, > foreign-manufactured aircraft (completed, not kits) > are coming. In fact, I > am now working with a Ukrainian manufacturer who is > looking to get his > two-place taildragger approved for import when the > SP regulations are > implemented. > > For the same reasons that the members of this group > have chosen the KR > design, foreign manufacturers looking for a popular > design to convert to > assembly-line production methods will probably > consider the KR as well as > other present "homebuilt" designs. The appeal of an > aircraft for a > manufacturer lies in its lines and performance, not > in its construction > material or methods, which, in any case, would be > radically altered in the > process of tooling up for volume manufacturing. > > There are a number of advanced techniques gaining > acceptance among > manufacturers of lightweight, high-power vehicles, > including vacuum-bagging > and automated panel-lamination. Advances in > injection molding--and > particularly in strength-of-materials for > non-fiber-reinforced > plastics--will probably allow, in the near future, > for non-labor-intensive > construction of molded fuselage panels and perhaps > even wings and control > surfaces. Although the tooling and start-up costs > for this kind of > manufacturing will probably always be beyond the > reach of homebuilders, they > do make sense for manufacturers. Such advances, and > the advantages of > pre-tooling and computer-controlled cutting, may > even make the production > aircraft lighter and more accurately built than the > average homebuilt KR. > > Further, the lines of the KR-2/2S appear suitable to > such techniques, being > relatively clean and free of protrubrances. The > questions of quality control > and commitment to safety are properly answered by > examining the corporate > philosophy of the manufacturer and his technical and > financial resources. > There are many Russian and Ukrainian aircraft, for > example, that have stood > the test of time and have proven safe and reliable > aircraft, all (gasp!) > without FAA intervention or regulation. > > Certainly there is nothing improper in a prospective > manufacturer exploring > the possibilities of taking advantage of the new > sport-plane regulations by > investigating existing designs before reinventing > the wheel, as long as he > makes the proper arrangements with the owner of any > design he decides to > use. It's just that he should bring aircraft > manufacturing expertise to the > project, and not alienate those in a position to > help him by showing his > lack of knowledge, i.e., by pronouncing an intention > to put a fixed O2 > system in a low-altitude aircraft. > > Max Hardberger > Admiralty Associates LLC > (877) 732-5298 tel. > (562) 684-4539 fax Dear
KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets
According to me, the answer is a bit more complex. Up to these liability lawsuits, aircraft and aircraft parts were almost mass-produced, hence keeping costs low. And all things considered, airframes, which are very labour-intensive items, still come at a reasonable price. Engines and avionics don't. Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Still impounded by Customs in Tunis (Sob!) -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Bob Stone Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 7:42 PM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets Scott, You are correct about everything you said to General Locker except the reason for certified aircraft being so high in price. Part of the reason of course is inflation but the real reason is law suits against aircraft manufactures. When I learned to fly way back in 1973 I could have bought a Cesna Skyhawk equiped for VFR flight for about $28,000.00 Now the same aircraft is more that $125,000.00 and the price increase is to cover the cost of paying judgments. Many aircraft manufactures stopped producing small aircraft for about ten years because of the damages they were having to pay out. This is also the reason so many people who want an aircraft and want to save money are buying a kit, taking it to one of the many so called business that advertise they will help. The aircraft is built almost l00% by the business and the customer is listed as the builder. Since the owner is shown on all the paperwork as the builder, he can sue no one if he has a accident. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rsto...@hot.rr.com - Original Message - From: "Scott Cable" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: RE: KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets > Dear Gen. Locker, > I sure hope that you and your partner's pockets are > REALLY deep. > In case you were not aware: The KR Series aircraft are > homebuilt experimental category aircraft. > If you plan on selling completed aircraft as stated > earlier, the FAA would require you to certify this > aircraft per FAR23 for Utility Aircraft, and only use > certified aircraft components FAR 21-23. Or you could > spend the time and mega-bucks to go through the > process of certifying a VW or other automotive based > engine. (not likely). Also you will need to get > Import Airworthiness Approval: "This approval > (documentation) is required for airworthiness > certification of aircraft, engines, propellers, > materials, parts, and appliances imported into the > United States from any country that has a > bilateral agreement with the United States." > Type in qutes were copied directly from: > http://www2.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/ > > The reason why most General Aviation aircraft are so > expensive, is that they have completed a rigorous > certification process, and all of their components > have underwent a similar certification process. > > So if you would like to continue in this venture, > you are most certainly going to need to employ several > qualified Strength Engineers, several Quality Control > engineers, and several Liason engineers, for at least > 24 months just to get started. > It is certainly generous of you to offer the KR > community TYPE certification, thankfully,most KR > builders will be able to have their aircraft certified > as type by being able to prove similar build methods > and materials. Wow, no more experimental placards, > lower insurance. > While you are at with those deep pockets, I'm an > Aerospace Design Engineer, have my MRB, and am also a > KR builder. If you're hiring, are you offering > benefits? I'll need 3 weeks paid vacation, full > medical and dental, 401k...Matching up to 7%? > > > = > Scott Cable > KR-2S # 735 > Linden, MI > s2cab...@yahoo.com > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
FINE! AS A NON-NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKER, I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO SHOUT FROM NOW ON! :-) Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC (Still feelin' lonely at Tunis Customs store!) -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Max Hardberger Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:33 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant I'm sorry, I didn't intend to shout. Many of my clients are not native English speakers, and I sometimes type in capitals for clarity. I meant nothing more. Since this is the only list I've ever been on, I didn't realize that capitals would be taken as "shouting." Max ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
I like the concept of "Freedom of Speed!) Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC (Planning an escape from Tunis Customs store) -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Max Hardberger Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:46 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant Dear Mark Although your post was not addressed to me directly, I take it that I am the ASS. I have not accused anyone of stepping on my freedom of speed, I just wondered why my post was rejected. I don't know anything about posts, and when the general said that he'd been "delisted" I thought maybe I had been also. As I have explained, I meant nothing by using capitals--in the shipping business, where telexes were our means of communication for many years, that was all we had--and I certainly didn't intend to shout. That said, however, I am not accustomed to being called an ass, and I certainly wouldn't call someone that under similar circumstances. Max Hardberger ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Hi Alex: You are giving away your age. That story was published 50 years ago. Great. It is the whole thesis of homebuilding. A There is one science fiction story about a team of scientist, they have a task to invent >some things impossible. The reason for this was a short movie with this >invention, but unfortunately his inventor crashed and dead. Nothing >remains, just a short move. While most of scientist spent all the time to >demonstrate this is impossible, a couple of them did that. >But not as in that movie, more expensive and not portable :-) When they >reported about their progress, they just say sorry, we could not create, >at list now, more portable and less expensive. What was the answer? Thanks >a lot! In reality there was nothing, the movie was a fiction, just for >though, noting more. Our hopes were for people as you, who will try >despite the fact that it is impossible. Not for those >scientist who know very good the theory and do not try to think may be >there is some thing wrong? Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 lar...@socal.rr.com
KR>assembly plant
Dana, The idea of seeing you naked in the street comes under the heading of too much information! I don't think I'm wired for that much input. Please give fair warning to those of us with sensitive dispositions so that we don't get overloaded with the rush of input as we watch your dance. Now that the disclaimer is completed, I might add that I would be willing to put a pile of money behind your bet. Regards, Bob Lee __ N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024 91% done only 51% to go! Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501 mailto:b...@flyboybob.com http://flyboybob.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Dana Overall Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 4:24 PM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant RV, the general has done so little homework you would probably spend more time in doing so than he has done in preparation for his post. General, we really are not bashing for the sake of bashing it is just so painfully obvious you have not done a bit of homework. Man, if you can do this for less than a couple million (look an Lancair, it almost sent them into bankruptcy) and in less than 5 years I'll make a promise...Upon reaching youjr 1st. year in operation anniversary, I'll dance naked in the street in front of your airplane factory until I get thrown in a Mexican jail. Anybody care to join me and make a kanga line?? Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: ronev...@aol.com >Reply-To: KR builders and pilots >To: kr...@mylist.net >Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:53:25 EDT > >Netters; > My room mate from flight school is now a colonel in the USMC. I can >check, through him, so see if "The General" was really in the Corps, or if >he was >a phony. Anyone interested? > >RV >___ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html _ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Hi Larry, thanks, but I am just 41 :-) May be already :-) BR, Alex Birca Moldova -Original Message- From: larry severson [mailto:lar...@socal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:49 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: RE: KR>assembly plant Hi Alex: You are giving away your age. That story was published 50 years ago. Great. It is the whole thesis of homebuilding. A There is one science fiction story about a team of scientist, they have a task to invent >some things impossible. The reason for this was a short movie with this >invention, but unfortunately his inventor crashed and dead. Nothing >remains, just a short move. While most of scientist spent all the time to >demonstrate this is impossible, a couple of them did that. >But not as in that movie, more expensive and not portable :-) When they >reported about their progress, they just say sorry, we could not create, >at list now, more portable and less expensive. What was the answer? Thanks >a lot! In reality there was nothing, the movie was a fiction, just for >though, noting more. Our hopes were for people as you, who will try >despite the fact that it is impossible. Not for those >scientist who know very good the theory and do not try to think may be >there is some thing wrong? Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 lar...@socal.rr.com ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Amen! Cut the guy some slack The KR net ain't USMC boot camp. You have broken down his dream, now, go to point 2 and build up his confidence in the possibility of doing great things. Dean Allen --- saltmi...@aol.com wrote: > This...debate?...curiouser and curiouser. > > I've been an entrepreneur all of my life; ideas appear and then things are > made to happen, sometimes it is a great leap forward, sometimes it's like > tumbling down a hill. > > But it is movement, not static, and usually exciting as hell. > > I seem to be witnessing a bunch of gut reactions, little thought or > circumspection. > > Would certainly have expected better from dreamers that build their dreams > and make them happen. If you (the few, not all, responders to Gerald Locker) > had approached his seeming intrusion into the KR world as you would a > technical > sticking point with a KR building procedure it would have been criticized a > little, analyzed a lot, and hopefully with or without a consensus there'd be > no > harm, no foul. We'd all keep going forward. > > I'm aware that the initial post from the 'General' seemed somewhat naive in > several respects. I personally have to assume that he arrived here well > intentioned and probably expected to be welcomed in a spirit of camaraderie > and > fellowship. He hasn't demonstrated any ill will; he has demonstrated a > desire to > have a piece of the pie. . .and a desire to become more knowledgeable about > the KR. I think we all kind of are in that category. > > This list right now is the Mecca for KR builders, and rightly so. There is > more access here to real and varied knowledge of the KR then anywhere else > that > I'm aware of. Where else should this man have gone.? > > Stephen Mines/KR2 > saltmi...@aol.com > > PS: At the ridiculous amount of money that I pay myself, this is a helluva > lot more than my 2 cents worth, but seemed right to say it. > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant-REALLY DEEP Pockets
Serge; I agree with you except any aircraft's major percentage of costs ocur with the engine and aviaonics. It really doesn't matter if you're building a KR, a F/A-18, a C-17, a 777 or MD-10. The point that I wasmaking had to do with someone "producing" a KR series airplane as a complete airplane, as implied or stated by General Locker. If that were the case, then he(the aircraft producer) would be required to certify the aircraft as type, and either certify an engine that is commonly being used with this aircraft(VW) or equip this aircraft with a certified engine(O-200). If he (the aircraft producer) were to assemble this aircraft outside of the United States, as further stated by General Locker, then he would also be rquired to obtain an Import Airworthiness Approval. The bottom line being this: He(the aircraft producer) would then pass those costs onto the customer. Thus making the aircraft unobtainable for many perspective KR pilots. Having participated in the design of the MD500 Notar, and the MD900 Explorer, I can assure you that certifying an aircraft is no easy task, and takes years to accomplish, and the dedication of a whole team of engineers, designers and managers to accomplish. I'm not saying that that Gen. Locker doesn't have these types of resources, I'm stating that it's very unlikely. --- "Serge F. Vidal" wrote: > According to me, the answer is a bit more complex. > Up to these liability > lawsuits, aircraft and aircraft parts were almost > mass-produced, hence > keeping costs low. And all things considered, > airframes, which are very > labour-intensive items, still come at a reasonable > price. Engines and > avionics don't. = Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cab...@yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
Dear Sirs, My partner and I are opening up an assembly plant in Tijuana, Mexico in June of 2004 once I return from Thailand. We are going to make the KR series, both stock and custom and could use any help that anyone might have concerning the VW engine, to instrumentation for VFR, oxygen system, BRS, and Avionics. We would also like to know if there is an easier way to make it than using the old fashion fiber glassing. Is there a newer product that can be laid at one time that is stronger, quicker, and easier to do? We are interested in hearing from retired individuals who may have had the opportunity to work more hours at a time on their planes. Sincerely, Gerald Locker, Managing Director M&L Aviation of the Americas My email is brigadier192...@yahoo.com and my phone/fax here in Thailand is 66-2-916-7504. You would have to dial the international code first. I believe that is 011 from the States. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
Just something about airplanes and cheap labor that don't seem like a good plan.Maybe I'm wrong,but atleast building I know what I've got.I would hate to see this nice little "HOME BUILT" go in this direction. - Original Message - From: "gerald locker" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: KR>assembly plant > Dear Sirs, > > My partner and I are opening up an assembly plant in > Tijuana, Mexico in June of 2004 once I return from > Thailand. We are going to make the KR series, both > stock and custom and could use any help that anyone > might have concerning the VW engine, to > instrumentation for VFR, oxygen system, BRS, and > Avionics. We would also like to know if there is an > easier way to make it than using the old fashion > fiber glassing. Is there a newer product that can be > laid at one time that is stronger, quicker, and easier > to do? We are interested in hearing from retired > individuals who may have had the opportunity to work > more hours at a time on their planes. > > Sincerely, > > Gerald Locker, Managing Director > M&L Aviation of the Americas > My email is brigadier192...@yahoo.com and my phone/fax > here in Thailand is 66-2-916-7504. You would have to > dial the international code first. I believe that is > 011 from the States. > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html >
KR>assembly plant
"old fashion fiber glassing"??? When did it become old? - Original Message - From: "gerald locker" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 10:47 PM Subject: KR>assembly plant > Dear Sirs, > > My partner and I are opening up an assembly plant in > Tijuana, Mexico in June of 2004 once I return from > Thailand. We are going to make the KR series, both > stock and custom and could use any help that anyone > might have concerning the VW engine, to > instrumentation for VFR, oxygen system, BRS, and > Avionics. We would also like to know if there is an > easier way to make it than using the old fashion > fiber glassing. Is there a newer product that can be > laid at one time that is stronger, quicker, and easier > to do? We are interested in hearing from retired > individuals who may have had the opportunity to work > more hours at a time on their planes. > > Sincerely, > > Gerald Locker, Managing Director > M&L Aviation of the Americas > My email is brigadier192...@yahoo.com and my phone/fax > here in Thailand is 66-2-916-7504. You would have to > dial the international code first. I believe that is > 011 from the States. > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Don't worry, it won't. If this is not a hoax, which I suspect it is, these people have no idea what they are doing. Oxygen systems on a KR? N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC da...@kr-builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org
KR>assembly plant
I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent the wheel. It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit the widow of the man that designed this plain and construction concept. Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay them royalties? This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, and built by people that could not afford a Cessna. You are trying to stand on the shoulders of others to make a buck. I for one, do not want to see a bunch of "factory built" KR's showing up on NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this well designed and conceived aircraft. Come up with your own concept, and hire a Aeronautical engineer to invent your new store-bought and leave the KR's to those that love to build and fly them. I for one will not help you, and I don't think you will find much help here! Timothy Bellville (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V
KR>assembly plant
>From: gerald locker > >My partner and I are opening up an assembly plant in >Tijuana, Mexico in June of 2004 once I return from >Thailand. We are going to make the KR series, both >stock and custom and could use any help that anyone >might have concerning the VW engine,... Clueless from the beginning?? to >instrumentation for VFR, As little as possible oxygen system, Do what?? BRS, and >Avionics. Nothing else needs to be said. We would also like to know if there is an >easier way to make it than using the old fashion >fiber glassing. Is there a newer product that can be >laid at one time that is stronger, quicker, and easier >to do? My goodness, please refer to Composite 101 or freshman orientation. And he says he wants to open a shop?? Gotta go with Dan here gangthis has hoax or "send me your money" written all over it. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
KR>assembly plant
--- Timothy Bellville wrote: > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent the > wheel. > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit the > widow of the man that > designed this plain and construction concept. > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay them > royalties? > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, and > built by people that > could not afford a Cessna. > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of others > to make a buck. > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of "factory > built" KR's showing up on > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this well > designed and conceived > aircraft. > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > Aeronautical engineer to invent > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to those > that love to build and fly > them. > I for one will not help you, and I don't think you > will find much help here! > Timothy Bellville > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V Dear Mr. Bellville, I appreciat your response though I cannot agree with you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I are going to be working with Jenette at RR in every kit we buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly will be paying royalties to her. \ We decided on the KR series since it incorporates everything we sought in a good airplane. It has the range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for our sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. We are building it because we feel that many would like to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a relatively inexpensive price, and without having to spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound program being set up and I am always open to suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family of owners and pilots. I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the building process and realize that the more I know, the better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an option. I am very sorry that you do not wish to offer any sound advice to us because we are always ready to listen. My partner owns, as well as his brother Accuracy Technologies in Glendale and Ventura and we intend to do a lot of R&D on new engines and airplane parts to be put in our own planes, as well as for sale to the general public. We are spending our own money, and we want no ones money except those that are buying our product. We care for the plane as much as anyone else does. Our questions I asked still could use some answers. Thank you for writing and hop you will reconsider and write again. Thank You, Gerald Locker > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
BGen Locker, Perhaps you should research some of the specs, then apply some common sense, before you get too involved. For instance, what is the service ceiling of a KR? At what altitude do the Marine Corps regs say the pilot must be on oxygen? What VFR pilots use that altitude block? (Cancel my IFR clearance, this is a 4-ship RTB VFR, descending below 18,000, squawking 1200, wingmen squawking standby.) Or perhaps someone climbing over a mountain, but that's about it...So, why is a portable oxygen system (that weighs at least ten pounds of your 35 pound baggage limit) going to be standard? Just a thought for you to consider a bit more, to assist your endeavors. Why exactly will your plant be in Tijuana? I'm curious. v/r Mark Youkey myou...@cox.net Oklahoma City - Original Message - From: "gerald locker" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > --- Timothy Bellville > wrote: > > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent the > > wheel. > > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit the > > widow of the man that > > designed this plain and construction concept. > > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay them > > royalties? > > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, and > > built by people that > > could not afford a Cessna. > > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of others > > to make a buck. > > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of "factory > > built" KR's showing up on > > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this well > > designed and conceived > > aircraft. > > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > > Aeronautical engineer to invent > > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to those > > that love to build and fly > > them. > > I for one will not help you, and I don't think you > > will find much help here! > > Timothy Bellville > > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V > > Dear Mr. Bellville, > > I appreciat your response though I cannot agree with > you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I are > going to be working with Jenette at RR in every kit we > buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly will > be paying royalties to her. \ > We decided on the KR series since it incorporates > everything we sought in a good airplane. It has the > range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for our > sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. We > are building it because we feel that many would like > to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a > relatively inexpensive price, and without having to > spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound > program being set up and I am always open to > suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family of > owners and pilots. > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > building process and realize that the more I know, the > better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an > option. > I am very sorry that you do not wish to offer any > sound advice to us because we are always ready to > listen. > My partner owns, as well as his brother Accuracy > Technologies in Glendale and Ventura and we intend to > do a lot of R&D on new engines and airplane parts to > be put in our own planes, as well as for sale to the > general public. We are spending our own money, and we > want no ones money except those that are buying our > product. We care for the plane as much as anyone else > does. Our questions I asked still could use some > answers. > > Thank you for writing and hop you will reconsider and > write again. > > Thank You, > > Gerald Locker > > > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Perhaps, the problem here is the way you presented your self to us, Surly you can see why some of us are apprehensive to things such as your venture, if you have an arrangement with Jeanette, you should have been up front with it. As vast as the internet is and originating in another country,skepticism should be expected. If you are only seeking information about a possible business venture that has the blessing of R/R Inc., Then there are many people more qualified to give it then I. I too am interested why you choose to built out side the United States. I am also a former Marine, But I fail to see why it should be an issue. As far as your parameters for your finished product, my personal opinion is that it is over built and too heavy in your configuration. Just my humble $.02 Timothy Bellville - Original Message - From: "gerald locker" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:59 AM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > --- Timothy Bellville > wrote: > > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent the > > wheel. > > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit the > > widow of the man that > > designed this plain and construction concept. > > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay them > > royalties? > > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, and > > built by people that > > could not afford a Cessna. > > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of others > > to make a buck. > > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of "factory > > built" KR's showing up on > > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this well > > designed and conceived > > aircraft. > > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > > Aeronautical engineer to invent > > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to those > > that love to build and fly > > them. > > I for one will not help you, and I don't think you > > will find much help here! > > Timothy Bellville > > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V > > Dear Mr. Bellville, > > I appreciat your response though I cannot agree with > you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I are > going to be working with Jenette at RR in every kit we > buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly will > be paying royalties to her. \ > We decided on the KR series since it incorporates > everything we sought in a good airplane. It has the > range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for our > sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. We > are building it because we feel that many would like > to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a > relatively inexpensive price, and without having to > spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound > program being set up and I am always open to > suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family of > owners and pilots. > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > building process and realize that the more I know, the > better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an > option. > I am very sorry that you do not wish to offer any > sound advice to us because we are always ready to > listen. > My partner owns, as well as his brother Accuracy > Technologies in Glendale and Ventura and we intend to > do a lot of R&D on new engines and airplane parts to > be put in our own planes, as well as for sale to the > general public. We are spending our own money, and we > want no ones money except those that are buying our > product. We care for the plane as much as anyone else > does. Our questions I asked still could use some > answers. > > Thank you for writing and hop you will reconsider and > write again. > > Thank You, > > Gerald Locker > > > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Dear Mr Locker, Please, do not pay too much attention to the tone of the replies you will get from this network. KR builders are passionate people, and as such, easily make passionate statements. That's part of the fun of belonging in this community. Yet, among us, commonsense prevails. If your intentions are honest, and if you are serious about making series production of anything that can be used in a KR, let alone KRs themselves, you will only have more friends! This being said, a few things you say are surprising. For instance, the KR has a low service ceiling, low enough to make oxygen redundant; and anything redundant in such a light aircraft is not always welcome. Also, I am not too sure that the KR2's architecture is well suited for production. People trying to do what you say (build an affordable small plane) generally go for fiberglass monocoque construction, not wood-and-fiberglass. There must be some reasons for that...which I'm sure we will be happy to debate in lengths! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of gerald locker Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 4:00 PM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant --- Timothy Bellville wrote: > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent the > wheel. > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit the > widow of the man that > designed this plain and construction concept. > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay them > royalties? > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, and > built by people that > could not afford a Cessna. > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of others > to make a buck. > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of "factory > built" KR's showing up on > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this well > designed and conceived > aircraft. > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > Aeronautical engineer to invent > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to those > that love to build and fly > them. > I for one will not help you, and I don't think you > will find much help here! > Timothy Bellville > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V Dear Mr. Bellville, I appreciat your response though I cannot agree with you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I are going to be working with Jenette at RR in every kit we buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly will be paying royalties to her. \ We decided on the KR series since it incorporates everything we sought in a good airplane. It has the range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for our sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. We are building it because we feel that many would like to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a relatively inexpensive price, and without having to spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound program being set up and I am always open to suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family of owners and pilots. I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the building process and realize that the more I know, the better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an option. I am very sorry that you do not wish to offer any sound advice to us because we are always ready to listen. My partner owns, as well as his brother Accuracy Technologies in Glendale and Ventura and we intend to do a lot of R&D on new engines and airplane parts to be put in our own planes, as well as for sale to the general public. We are spending our own money, and we want no ones money except those that are buying our product. We care for the plane as much as anyone else does. Our questions I asked still could use some answers. Thank you for writing and hop you will reconsider and write again. Thank You, Gerald Locker > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > Just something about airplanes and cheap labor that don't seem like a good > plan.Maybe I'm wrong,but atleast building I know what I've got.I would hate > to see this nice little "HOME BUILT" go in this direction. Lots of RV builders are benefiting from Fast Build kits that are constructed in the Phillipines. My understanding is that they are shipped to the US in containers. I don't think "cheap labor" automaticly means "poor quality". I would bet that a majority of the components in your PC/Monitor/TV etc are made with "cheap labor". I haven't been following this thread, but in general the more KR's out there the better. Better statistics on performance from a larger population sample, better options for spare/replacement parts etc. Lots of good things can come from this too... so it's not all bad. -- Ross -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze
KR>assembly plant
You may find that the most labor intensive part of construction is not the fiberglass work, but the fuselage construction. Also obtaining quality spruce may be an issue... I don't know. I think if you could use pre-molded glass or do your own molds for the wings and upper decks, will be less labor intensive than the moldless method. This sounds like an interesting business. Do you think you will be marketing completed planes for Export to the US? If so, what licensing catagory? Sounds like lots of paperwork. Alternatly, you could build fast-build sub-assemblies. For example, wing spars, fuselages, things that are easily inspected and integrated into a builders experimental project. Good luck with your venture. -- Ross To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: KR>assembly plant > Dear Sirs, > > My partner and I are opening up an assembly plant in > Tijuana, Mexico in June of 2004 once I return from > Thailand. We are going to make the KR series, both > stock and custom and could use any help that anyone > might have concerning the VW engine, to > instrumentation for VFR, oxygen system, BRS, and > Avionics. We would also like to know if there is an > easier way to make it than using the old fashion > fiber glassing. Is there a newer product that can be > laid at one time that is stronger, quicker, and easier > to do? We are interested in hearing from retired > individuals who may have had the opportunity to work > more hours at a time on their planes. > > Sincerely, > > Gerald Locker, Managing Director > M&L Aviation of the Americas > My email is brigadier192...@yahoo.com and my phone/fax > here in Thailand is 66-2-916-7504. You would have to > dial the international code first. I believe that is > 011 from the States. > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze
KR>assembly plant
Mr. Brigadier General wrote: I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the building process and realize that the more I know, the better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an option. Reply: I've been reading all the hoopla about a factory for the Kr. I enjoy the KR Net. I receive great amounts of info. (Special thanks to Mark Langford, Dana Overall), If there is true intent to be conjoined with Jeanette R then Mr. Brigadier should be seeking a forum with her alone. My personal opinion is backed up by 20 years pure aviation. I have flown for the Military for 10 as a Chief Warrant Officer. I have flown literally half way around the world with 5 years over sea's even with the unfortunate experience of going down twice. I was responsible for saving the lives of my crew and most of my ship anyway. Of course the engine and transmission were toast. But those that flew with me as well as myself (obviously) are still walking Gods green earth. No medals, I did what the military trained me to do and I know I've received the best flight training in the world. I was trained by Vietnam veterans. I am licensed and qualified in both Helicopter (Huey's to the Apache) and fixed wing. I have been slowly but surely, building my KR2S for KR netters obvious reasons. I am not currently an engineer. But have been enrolled as a full time student for the past 20 months majoring in Aerospace Engineering. With the past 5 years as a Senior Technical writer within the Aerospace Industry. In my own experience, I have built them, fixed them, flown them till they broke apart "literally", studied them, and have been writing the books on them. I chose this aircraft for all the reasons everyone else has. Because I love to fly. It is not only what I do, but it is who I am. As it is for all those that love the experience and true freedom of flight. Being a military man I am not surprised if Mr. Brigadier is a general. First of all, to even think of putting all that garbage on a well proven platform until it is no longer a kit aircraft, until it is no longer simple to build, until it is so heavy that it can't get off the ground and finally until it is no longer affordable, is just like the military. Second, if Mr. Brigadier is a general, being a military man myself, I know the only thing he flew for the 30 years was a desk. He may have his wings, but that doesn't mean he actually flew. I know when my general got in my bird, I didn't allow him to even operate the radio, and I "was" in an aviation unit. This aircraft I chose because I wanted to create a flying machine that would incorporate not only the proven sound engineering of RR, but also my own knowledge of flight experience as well as my personality. A few Pre-fabricated parts are nice, but there still is the 51% rule to contend with as well. Lastly, my ethics, morality, integrity, character and tenacity to attempt to achieve flight by my own fabrication have been shaped by the purity of the love for flying and the machines that allow me to cheat the bounds of gravity. I believe that all those that are involved with this KR net forum, carry these same traits and would speak to them as brothers of a common and noble quest. To Mr. Brigadier, the KR is a bird whose feathers were meant to be shaped by the sole hands of each individual of whom so ever ventures to join in this quest of personal accomplishment in bringing out the eagle within usas individuals. If all of us did want a factory built aircraft,...we would..buy Cessna. The journey of building the KR to reach the clouds, is what makes playing in them, so great.
KR>Assembly Plant
Mr. Locker, If it is truly your intent to build an affordable yet safe purpose-built aircraft then you need to do some research on this aircraft specifically. ON Mark Langford's site there is a link to an evaluation done by I believe Tony Bengalis the KR2 and has ALOT of valuable information concerning this aircraft. If your intention is to utilize this platform in flight regimes that will use oxygen, mandatory in civilian aircraft after 30 minutes above 12,500 feet, or immediately after climbing through 14,000 feet, and desire the additional equipment for IFR operations which I gather by its description you do, then this aircraft anywhere close to its original configuration is NOT well suited to the task. IT is akin to using a carpenter's hammer and chisel to remove a driveway, instead of a jackhammer. It will get the job done, BUT A second example of a similarly designed aircraft would be the Sonex, which like the KR2, and KR2S is primarily designed for VFR day, and if carefully built VFR night operations. Most here agree that it is not stable enough for intentional IFR operations, and powerplants designed for high altitude operations are not practical for use in this airframe, without considerable modification. In my opinion, you would be better off buying the designing software from DiVinci Technologies and scratch building your desired aircraft, since after modifying the KR2 to do all you want it to do, it will not be anything close to the same plane. Better examples to follow for your intended use are the Lancair Legacy, Glassair, and Mustang II. Colin Rainey KR2(td) crain...@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE
KR>assembly plant
I don't plan on flying my T.V.,but you are right,I just wounder how many people are going to jump into a airplane of this construction without being able to know how it was built.Things like seeing inside the spars to know they are good before they are closed up..There is a reason why they FAA has the standards they do when it comes to building airplanes here... - Original Message - From: "Ross Youngblood" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 12:45 PM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > > Just something about airplanes and cheap labor that don't seem like a good > > plan.Maybe I'm wrong,but atleast building I know what I've got.I would hate > > to see this nice little "HOME BUILT" go in this direction. > > Lots of RV builders are benefiting from Fast Build kits > that are constructed in the Phillipines. My understanding > is that they are shipped to the US in containers. > > I don't think "cheap labor" automaticly means "poor quality". > > I would bet that a majority of the components in your > PC/Monitor/TV etc are made with "cheap labor". > > I haven't been following this thread, but in general > the more KR's out there the better. Better statistics > on performance from a larger population sample, better > options for spare/replacement parts etc. Lots of good > things can come from this too... so it's not all bad. > > -- Ross > > > > -- > > http://www.operamail.com > Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year > > > Powered by Outblaze > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html >
KR>assembly plant
All I can say is," Perfect!!!" David Mikesell skyguy...@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > Mr. Brigadier General wrote: > > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > building process and realize that the more I know, the > better the plane will be. We want to include a BRS, a > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, not an > option. > > Reply: > I've been reading all the hoopla about a factory for the Kr. I enjoy the KR > Net. I receive great amounts of info. (Special thanks to Mark Langford, Dana > Overall), If there is true intent to be conjoined with Jeanette R then Mr. > Brigadier should be seeking a forum with her alone. > > My personal opinion is backed up by 20 years pure aviation. I have flown for > the Military for 10 as a Chief Warrant Officer. I have flown literally half > way around the world with 5 years over sea's even with the unfortunate > experience of going down twice. I was responsible for saving the lives of my crew and > most of my ship anyway. Of course the engine and transmission were toast. But > those that flew with me as well as myself (obviously) are still walking Gods > green earth. No medals, I did what the military trained me to do and I know I've > received the best flight training in the world. I was trained by Vietnam > veterans. > > I am licensed and qualified in both Helicopter (Huey's to the Apache) and > fixed wing. I have been slowly but surely, building my KR2S for KR netters > obvious reasons. > > I am not currently an engineer. But have been enrolled as a full time student > for the past 20 months majoring in Aerospace Engineering. With the past 5 > years as a Senior Technical writer within the Aerospace Industry. > > In my own experience, I have built them, fixed them, flown them till they > broke apart "literally", studied them, and have been writing the books on them. > > I chose this aircraft for all the reasons everyone else has. Because I love > to fly. It is not only what I do, but it is who I am. As it is for all those > that love the experience and true freedom of flight. > > Being a military man I am not surprised if Mr. Brigadier is a general. > > First of all, to even think of putting all that garbage on a well proven > platform until it is no longer a kit aircraft, until it is no longer simple to > build, until it is so heavy that it can't get off the ground and finally until it > is no longer affordable, is just like the military. > > Second, if Mr. Brigadier is a general, being a military man myself, I know > the only thing he flew for the 30 years was a desk. He may have his wings, but > that doesn't mean he actually flew. I know when my general got in my bird, I > didn't allow him to even operate the radio, and I "was" in an aviation unit. > > This aircraft I chose because I wanted to create a flying machine that would > incorporate not only the proven sound engineering of RR, but also my own > knowledge of flight experience as well as my personality. A few Pre-fabricated > parts are nice, but there still is the 51% rule to contend with as well. > > Lastly, my ethics, morality, integrity, character and tenacity to attempt to > achieve flight by my own fabrication have been shaped by the purity of the > love for flying and the machines that allow me to cheat the bounds of gravity. > > I believe that all those that are involved with this KR net forum, carry > these same traits and would speak to them as brothers of a common and noble quest. > > To Mr. Brigadier, the KR is a bird whose feathers were meant to be shaped by > the sole hands of each individual of whom so ever ventures to join in this > quest of personal accomplishment in bringing out the eagle within usas > individuals. > > If all of us did want a factory built aircraft,...we would..buy > Cessna. > > The journey of building the KR to reach the clouds, is what makes playing in > them, so great. > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>assembly plant
Don't be ridicules. Are you some kind of ego nut that's lost his mind? KRRon
KR>Assembly Plant
--- Colin wrote: > Mr. Locker, > If it is truly your intent to build an affordable > yet safe purpose-built aircraft then you need to do > some research on this aircraft specifically. ON > Mark Langford's site there is a link to an > evaluation done by I believe Tony Bengalis the KR2 > and has ALOT of valuable information concerning this > aircraft. If your intention is to utilize this > platform in flight regimes that will use oxygen, > mandatory in civilian aircraft after 30 minutes > above 12,500 feet, or immediately after climbing > through 14,000 feet, and desire the additional > equipment for IFR operations which I gather by its > description you do, then this aircraft anywhere > close to its original configuration is NOT well > suited to the task. IT is akin to using a > carpenter's hammer and chisel to remove a driveway, > instead of a jackhammer. It will get the job done, > BUT A second example of a similarly designed > aircraft would be the Sonex, which like the KR2, and > KR2S is primarily designed for VFR day, and if > carefully built VFR night operations. Most here > agree that it is not stable enough for intentional > IFR operations, and powerplants designed for high > altitude operations are not practical for use in > this airframe, without considerable modification. > In my opinion, you would be better off buying the > designing software from DiVinci Technologies and > scratch building your desired aircraft, since after > modifying the KR2 to do all you want it to do, it > will not be anything close to the same plane. > Better examples to follow for your intended use are > the Lancair Legacy, Glassair, and Mustang II. > Colin Rainey KR2(td) > crain...@cfl.rr.com > Sanford, Florida > FLY > SAFE Dear Mr. Rainey, Thank you for you advice. Perhaps I wanted too much for the plane and it is good to know that someone has an opinion that makes sense. We also thought about the Sonex but I did not like how it even looks. Best Wishes, Gerald Locker ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
KR>assembly plant
--- Timothy Bellville wrote: > Perhaps, the problem here is the way you presented > your self to us, > Surly you can see why some of us are apprehensive to > things such as your > venture, > if you have an arrangement with Jeanette, you should > have been up front with > it. > As vast as the internet is and originating in > another country,skepticism > should be expected. > If you are only seeking information about a possible > business venture that > has the blessing of R/R Inc., Then there are many > people more qualified to > give it then I. > I too am interested why you choose to built out side > the United States. > I am also a former Marine, But I fail to see why it > should be an issue. > As far as your parameters for your finished product, > my personal opinion is > that it is over built and too heavy in your > configuration. Just my humble > $.02 > Timothy Bellville Dear Mr. Bellville, Thank you for your personal observations and comments. We are going to build the planes outside of the US because of the negative business atmosphere that seems to pervade the entire business community. We can make the planes a lot cheaper, and just as good (hopefully) there, as in California. Yes, I will be able to have a lot less wages being paid out but the people are good and hard working, and experienced. We hope to have 3-4 man crews and a general floor boss to teach them what they need to know. We are hiring only those that has experience in the various areas. It may be correct that we are wanting too much from the KR series and we may have to reevaluate our position on that. Thank you for your time. Respectfully, Gerald Locker > - Original Message - > From: "gerald locker" > To: "KR builders and pilots" > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > > > > > --- Timothy Bellville > > wrote: > > > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent > the > > > wheel. > > > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit > the > > > widow of the man that > > > designed this plain and construction concept. > > > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay > them > > > royalties? > > > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, > and > > > built by people that > > > could not afford a Cessna. > > > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of > others > > > to make a buck. > > > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of > "factory > > > built" KR's showing up on > > > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this > well > > > designed and conceived > > > aircraft. > > > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > > > Aeronautical engineer to invent > > > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to > those > > > that love to build and fly > > > them. > > > I for one will not help you, and I don't think > you > > > will find much help here! > > > Timothy Bellville > > > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V > > > > Dear Mr. Bellville, > > > > I appreciat your response though I cannot agree > with > > you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I > are > > going to be working with Jenette at RR in every > kit we > > buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly > will > > be paying royalties to her. \ > > We decided on the KR series since it incorporates > > everything we sought in a good airplane. It has > the > > range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for > our > > sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. > We > > are building it because we feel that many would > like > > to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a > > relatively inexpensive price, and without having > to > > spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound > > program being set up and I am always open to > > suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family > of > > owners and pilots. > > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > > building process and realize that the more I know, > the > > better the plane will be. We want to include a > BRS, a > > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, > not an > > option. > > I am very sorry that you do not wish to offer any > > sound advice to us because we are always ready to > > listen. > > My partner owns, as well as his brother Accuracy > > Technologies i
KR>assembly plant
--- Mark Youkey wrote: > BGen Locker, > > Perhaps you should research some of the specs, then > apply some common sense, > before you get too involved. For instance, what is > the service ceiling of a > KR? At what altitude do the Marine Corps regs say > the pilot must be on > oxygen? What VFR pilots use that altitude block? > (Cancel my IFR clearance, > this is a 4-ship RTB VFR, descending below 18,000, > squawking 1200, wingmen > squawking standby.) Or perhaps someone climbing > over a mountain, but that's > about it...So, why is a portable oxygen system (that > weighs at least ten > pounds of your 35 pound baggage limit) going to be > standard? > > Just a thought for you to consider a bit more, to > assist your endeavors. > > Why exactly will your plant be in Tijuana? I'm > curious. > > v/r > Mark Youkey > myou...@cox.net > Oklahoma City Dear Mr. Youkey, You made some good points that was what I was hoping to hear. We may have set our sights too high with the plane and need to go back to the basics. I sometime get carried away with a project and need to be brought back to earth. We are going to be in Tijuana for the advantages of NAFTA, low wages as compared to LA and less interference by governmental agencies, such as OSHA. We intend to abide by every rule that is in effect but my partner and I feel that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. We will make them as experimental or under the LSA and will meet all requirements posed by the US FAA and the Mexican authorities. We intend to make 30-36 planes by the second year but feel it is realistic to say we shall produce only 7-10 during the first year. Thank you for your imput, I need to bail out some of my thoughts for a plane that is wonderful but should be allowed to do what it was designed to do. Thank you, Gerald Locker > > - Original Message - > From: "gerald locker" > To: "KR builders and pilots" > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant > > > > > > --- Timothy Bellville > > wrote: > > > I sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent > the > > > wheel. > > > It also sounds like you have no plan to benefit > the > > > widow of the man that > > > designed this plain and construction concept. > > > Are you going to buy parts from R/R inc. ?Pay > them > > > royalties? > > > This little plain was meant to be a homebuilt, > and > > > built by people that > > > could not afford a Cessna. > > > You are trying to stand on the shoulders of > others > > > to make a buck. > > > I for one, do not want to see a bunch of > "factory > > > built" KR's showing up on > > > NTSB reports and dragging down the name of this > well > > > designed and conceived > > > aircraft. > > > Come up with your own concept, and hire a > > > Aeronautical engineer to invent > > > your new store-bought and leave the KR's to > those > > > that love to build and fly > > > them. > > > I for one will not help you, and I don't think > you > > > will find much help here! > > > Timothy Bellville > > > (homebuilt) KR2 N7038V > > > > Dear Mr. Bellville, > > > > I appreciat your response though I cannot agree > with > > you on most of your assumptions. My partner and I > are > > going to be working with Jenette at RR in every > kit we > > buy, and if we do produce our own, we certainly > will > > be paying royalties to her. \ > > We decided on the KR series since it incorporates > > everything we sought in a good airplane. It has > the > > range, the looks, the relative speed we sought for > our > > sales marketing to overseas, and to the States. > We > > are building it because we feel that many would > like > > to have a beautiful, safe, and reliable plane at a > > relatively inexpensive price, and without having > to > > spend 1000 + hours building it. We have a sound > > program being set up and I am always open to > > suggestions that will benefit us and the KR family > of > > owners and pilots. > > I am a former Marine General who has flown over 30 > > years, but I must admit that I am a novice at the > > building process and realize that the more I know, > the > > better the plane will be. We want to include a > BRS, a > > portable oxygen system, long range fuel tanks, > > transponder and GPS as part of the stock plane, > not an > > option. > > I am very sorry th
KR>assembly plant
Dear Gen. Locker, I like to assume that folks are honest and sincere at least until I have evidence (much less proof) to the contrary. Several folks are building variations on the KR-2S that will be powered with 6 cylinder Corvair engines rather than the 4 cylinder VW. They are using the 110 H.P. (in the auto) version. Check out the Corvaircraft group for more info on the engine. With a more powerful engine, you should be able to make modest increases in the size of the airframe. After all, that's why it is called "Experimental" aviation. Naturally, if you make major departures from the proven KR-2 or KR-2S parameters, then, you are indeed experimenting. It would be prudent to carefully consider a whole range of aerodynamic factors. Common sense would be to build one prototype and test it extensively as you make the modifications before jumping directly into mass production. I do agree with others on the list, if you want an aircraft that operates above 14,000 feet, has oxygen and IFR capability, it is very probable that you might want to look into a larger aircraft with a higher gross weight and designed for more power than a VW engine. Give the Vision a look. It is a different type of construction but but seems some larger than the KR series. Like them, it is designed with economy in mind. As for mass producing anything and shipping it into the US you will run into lots of red tape. How will your aircraft qualify as 51% built by the owner? If the alternative is to have the aircraft finished and sold intact, does it need to be certified? Sounds like you have a very rough conception of a possible ideal for a business venture rather than a carefully researched business plan. That is absolutely OK but it will take a lot of research and study to determine if the whole ideal is viable. I happen to think anything that expands aviation and places more affordable aircraft in reach of ordinary folks of more modest economic means is fantastic...as long as it is done safely and by honest business practices. Good luck. Semper Fi. Dean Allen agat...@yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
