[lace] Shredding threads
In message 8cc83ee338e6ff2-5d24-3...@webmail-d011.sysops.aol.com, Vicki Bradford twohappyb...@aol.com writes I, too, use continental bobbins exclusively and have not had the shredding problem so that might be an explanation. I'm wondering if there are several problems being discussed and the description meaning different things to different people! To me, shredding means losing fibres by being worn away in a cutting/grating sort of fashion - such as you shred paper - this would happen relatively quickly. Shedding, where small fibres from the thread are lost in use, is usually caused by friction - and is gradual - moulting. In other words, in the first you end up with a pile of little bits, the second the thread is worn out gradually. Neither describes the problem caused by threads unspinning - where you start with fibres about 1.5 inches long twisted together to form a thread - take the twist away and the fibres separate, and part company very easily - hence a broken thread. Snapping is when you pull on a thread too hard, and cause the thread to break - not necessarily parting the individual fibres. This can be due to the thread being too weak for the tension put on it (due to a variety of causes) or heavy-handedness on the part of the lacemaker. The causes of the thread being weaker than it should be can include shedding fibres and shredding. Over the years, the reasons why my threads have broken have been down to either too much tension for the thread, weakness in the thread probably due to dryness - both snapping - and unspinning. Occasionally stabbing the thread with a pin hasn't helped! I haven't had any of these caused by wear of the thread against the cloths. Bobbins - I use either Midland or Honiton on either a domed or block pillow, and work palms down. -- Jane Partridge - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
I agree with Jane. To me shredding means the thread disintegrating due to friction , snapping is a sudden breakage caused by too much tension, either heavy handedness or a weak thread and feathering is the thread just pulling apart, usually because it has become untwisted. I don't usually have too much of a problem with any of these but the current project has been a trial - mainly because I started it using a one ply weaving linen! Where the thread has held together it looks fine, but even with making an effort to keep the threads twisted I had half a dozen feathering breaks in about three inches of lace and I couldn't pull hard enough to tension the spiders properly and so I gave up and started again using Moravia 40/2. Problem solved. I had a similar problem when I tried to use Shetland wool singles yarn for BL. I'm using a novelty metallic thread for the gimps and outside passive pair. It's a chained thread with added bits of glitter, a bit like metallic chenille. I have to tug it pretty hard to tension it but no problems other than the fact that at the end of each session there are several tiny pieces of the glitter fibre on the pillow caused by friction (shredding), but no breakages. Brenda I'm wondering if there are several problems being discussed and the description meaning different things to different people! Brenda in Allhallows paternos...@appleshack.com http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
polycotton def the best for this count 18 threads per cm and upwards or you can just use innerlining for skirts it is qiute gloss but as smooth as the of a but you do not realy need to tear downyour pillows now it can be simply overcome whit leather all of you know Anni Noben Sleghers? what does she uses for not shreedding threads? have a look at pictures of her working again she cuts out a part of a leather sheet in the form of a kidney to put on her pilllow it covers all the part of the pillow were the threads would be able to make contact to the cloth so the threads will never ever shred on the surface the leather is highpolllished francis - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
In a message dated 24/02/2010 08:40:39 GMT Standard Time, francis.busscha...@telenet.be writes: so the threads will never ever shred on the surface the leather is highpolllished Hi Francis, Leather or plastic is nice to use with continental bobbins, where you want them to slide, but with spangled bobbins I find that I need the slight amount of friction between the cloth and bobbin to be able to 'get hold' of them. But so long as the cloth is thin, and the bobbins aren't overwound, the thread shouldn't touch the cloth very much anyway. Even with leather or plastic there is still the same risk of the leash rubbing on the edge of the cloth. I haven't found that the threads break because of the cloths. They snap, fairly cleanly, if they are handled too roughly or if they are too dry and brittle, or they fall apart with long whiskers if they untwist. Neither of these are really due to the cloths. I suspect that having your pillow at an angle contributes a lot; as someone else pointed out, if the pillow is angled the bobbins will roll to the lowest point and one side will twist more and the other side will untwist. But again, this affects unspangled bobbins more than spangled which slide rather than roll. Malvary worked on a pillow that was Mum's, finishing off a piece of her lace. Two bobbins out of all of them kept untwisting. There were other bobbins of the same design on the pillow - no problem with them. One was one of the two fan workers - no problems with its partner. The other was working ground, pattern, footside - again, no problems with any other bobbins. We observed and analysed and puzzled. Never did solve the mystery, unless, possibly, had been wound those two bobbins with a different thread somehow. But if they were, it wasn't observable even with strong magnification. Jacquie in Lincolnshire - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
In message 24138.3f5865c.38b64...@aol.com, laceandb...@aol.com writes Never did solve the mystery, unless, possibly, had been wound those two bobbins with a different thread somehow. But if they were, it wasn't observable even with strong magnification. Could they have formed the first pair wound, so that the thread had been more exposed to light and/or atmospheric conditions than that it covered on the reel? As I've said to Susan off list, it is easy to make mountains out of molehills, and I think Jacqui you have repeated what I've always been taught - if the cloth is stretched across the pillow (I use glass headed pins at each side of the base of the pillow, out of the way of the bobbins, but easier to move the cover cloth down when need be) there should be little contact between it and the thread. I was taught that the purpose of the cover cloths was to protect the thread from catching on the edge of the pricking - the rough edge of card (or, historically, parchment) being more likely to damage the thread. Hence for Torchon we were taught to fully dress the pillow (cover cloths down each side of the pillow, covering the side edges of the pricking, and then an apron cloth under the bobbins (a U shaped hole, in other words). For Bucks, we were taught to use one well stretched cloth across the pillow. Whether your threads touch the cloth or not will depend on how full the bobbins are, and how long the thread between the work and the bobbin - also, where you position your cover cloth in relation to the work. If it is too high up the pillow then the threads will make contact. Nearer to the bobbin it shouldn't. But, over twenty years, I've had relatively few threads break - originally, it was down to over-tensioning - pulling too hard - I soon learnt to gently tension the threads as I worked, rather than going back and yanking them all afterwards (some stitches and threads do need that, but most don't). One cop of Campbell's Linen drove me up the wall for snapping - that piece got cut off and is now a peg doll's apron, and I haven't used that reel of thread since. Thinking back on it. In Bucks, with DMC Broder Machine, I've had a few (less than can be counted on fingers!) threads untwist and fall apart (rather than snap), but not that many. More of a problem with my current Honiton piece is friction between the outside of the pillow bag where the pillow is stored and one of the cats walking over/past it! (Five threads so far, but I haven't touched that piece for about seven or eight years). Mostly with Honiton it is a case of over-tensioning fine cotton threads, which is why I use silk! Bucks seems to use less thread than Torchon - I wonder if that is one of the reasons why a particular point on a length of thread might stay in contact with the edge of the cloth long enough to wear out, but I would very much doubt that that actually happens - unless the number of pairs is great enough for threads to stay in one place for very long periods between use. This won't be a beginner problem - most are afraid of using large numbers of bobbins! In perspective, that is a very low percentage of thread breaks for the number of bobbins I've used in pieces over the years - certainly not enough to think that the cover cloth is to blame (or most threads would be weakened to that extent). Threads that shred - think of your sewing machine - the ones that leave most dust after stitching a seam are the cheaper brands with short staple lengths - better quality thread doesn't shred, or if it does, not as much. It is easy to get so bogged down on things like this that it takes away the pleasure of lacemaking - worrying so much that a thread is going to break if everything isn't just so can take away the relaxation aspect for a beginner, whereas most of us have subconsciously worked out why it happens for us and over time found ways of avoiding breaks. We also learn that when it does happen, replacing a broken thread isn't really a problem - meanwhile, the breaks get fewer and further between! -- Jane Partridge - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
In a message dated 24/02/2010 11:11:09 GMT Standard Time, jpartri...@pebble.demon.co.uk writes: Could they have formed the first pair wound Unlikely. Mum was of the school to wind her bobbins in pairs, and as I remember there was a *pair* working the cloth stitch fans. Different enough to tell one from the other, but bought as a pair - like different pictures or whatever. There was also a partner bobbin on the pillow for the other one, but that had separated doing half stitch. As I said, we puzzled over it for several evenings, and all the while Malvary had to keep retwisting those two bobbins to stop them falling off. Jacquie - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Shredding threads
And that leather thing dear friends is what got me hooked into lace making, on a visit to Honiton before I had even heard of bobbin lace we popped into a gift shop and I heard this wonderful rhythmic sound , followed my ears and there sat an old lady making lace with a leather cover exactly as you describe, the sound was beautiful. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
Ah- HA! Then it's definitely the lace gremlins! I suspect they've been around since dirt, but in modern times, some of them have morphed into computer gremlins. Clay Never did solve the mystery, unless, possibly, had been wound those two bobbins with a different thread somehow. But if they were, it wasn't observable even with strong magnification. Jacquie in Lincolnshir - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
When we (Jacquie, Tamara, Julie and I) went to IOLI in Montreal, Jacquie and Tamara were taking a course doing Cluny de Brioude. Tamara made 'leather' cover cloths and I was given one which I still enjoy using. Tamara would be able to tell you what she bought to make the cloths with. Some of my students have made cloths with a hole from a heavy non-fraying suede type fabric. Malvary in Ottawa where it is snowing again, but quite warm 0c, so perhaps it won't stay (rain forecast for Friday). - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
Throughout this discussion I have been wondering whether the shedding threads problem was in any way related to the use of English verses continental bobbins. I have always used continental bobbins with bulbs on the bottom and wound in the continental fashion, which is opposite to the English fashion. I can't say I have ever noticed shredding threads to be a particular problem, even though, by the logic that the beads on English bobbins are essential to keep the thread from untwisting, my thread should be untwisting and shredding like mad as they go flying back and forth across the cover cloth, which is not an overthought affair. One idea, perhaps the bulbs elevate the bobbin a little off the pillow. Could there be some relation between the direction of winding on the bobbin, no doubt interacting with the ever elusive to me, and possibly mystical Z twist, S twist factor of the thread? Also, I have my hitch on the bobbin thread on the shank, whereas I notice that English lacemakers are more likely to have the hitch on a little groove at the top of the bobbin. Again, theoretically, the hitch right over the thread ought to wear it out more, but perhaps the hitch on the groove of the top of the bobbin has more pressure on it. Is the shredding problem equally distributed between those who work Continental versus those who work English style? Devon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
The reason I was given to use cotton rather than poly cotton fabric for cloths was that the static from the poly cotton in some way weakens the thread. I am not at all convinced by that as I don't have problems with threads Exactly right. The idea that static electricity has anything to do with it is a myth. From my experience (I have actually measured it) the force of static electricity prouduced by friction between everyday articles rubbed together is minute and incapable of doing more than waving a free end of a thread in the air. Think of how your hair feels on a dry day, it may stand out with the individual hairs separating because of the force between them, but the individual hairs will move nothing. Happy lacemaking Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads and cover cloths
Hi all, I use cover cloths a lot, sometimes covering my entire pillow; so I know from experience that Two (2) problems can result in regard to the shredding of threads and cover cloths: 1.) The longer the working thread between the pricking and the bobbins, the more likely it WILL rub on the cover cloth. 2.) A cover cloth edge that is not stretched tightly over the working area WILL bubbly up and possibly rub against the threads. It takes diligence to watch both of these things each time you adjust your cloths. Overfilling the bobbin, causing the thread to sit on the cover cloth or pillow, and be pushed back and forth, etc. is not a cover cloth problem but certainly is a no-no. An over-filled bobbin shoves lint and pillow dust into the thread fibers. It would be beneficial to watch all of these problems while setting up the working pillow. Susie Susie Johnson, lacemaker Member L.A.C.E., I.O.L.I., Arachne List Morris, Illinois cjohnson0...@comcast.net http://www.lacemakersofillinois.org http://home.comcast.net/~cjohnson0969/home.html - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Shredding threads
I was also in the Cluny de Brioude class in Montreal. Our class materials instructed us to bring a leather piece to work on. I was fortunate to find a remnant of a very soft deerskin leather, comparatively thin and very pliable, plus it felt wonderful to the touch. I believe there were some in the class who were using thicker and stiffer pieces of leather which might cause the problems described (but in their defense, we weren't given any particulars about what sort of leather to use). Devon's comment about the possibility of the 'bulb' on continental bobbins providing a bit of elevation is interesting. I, too, use continental bobbins exclusively and have not had the shredding problem so that might be an explanation. I wonder what experience others have had using the plastic green 'horseshoe' intended to raise threads a bit to avoid catching on exposed pins? I confess I own one but have never used it. Has anyone found that it helps with the shredding problem? Vicki in Maryland -Original Message- From: Malvary J Cole malva...@sympatico.ca When we (Jacquie, Tamara, Julie and I) went to IOLI in Montreal, Jacquie and Tamara were taking a course doing Cluny de Brioude. Tamara made 'leather' cover cloths and I was given one which I still enjoy using. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
Hi Susan Thank you for the information, Alex! Do you have recommendations for fabrics, please, as something like satin would be too slick, so perhaps a fine Egyptian cotton, etc.? Go by feel rather than name. The fabric needs to be smooth. I use the very ordinary fine polyester cotton. Traditionally cotton is recommended, but again find a fine fabric with a smooth finish, if you can get fine Egyptian cotton in a dark colour it will be ideal. Personally I would not choose satin. I think the shine would bother me, but there is no reason why not, and being slick it may resolve the problem. However, you would have to find a fine one. As with any cover cloth fabric the fold should not be bulky as this may be suffucient to bring the fabric into closer contact with the threads and cause them to wear. I hope this answers everything, if not let me know and let me know how you get on. Happy lacemaking (without broken threads) Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Shredding threads
Hi Susan Can you detail the actual cause determined, ie, tension, friction, etc., from the cover cloth? Sometimes the cause for threads to become weakened and shred is the cover cloth. When we work our bobbins they are constantly being moved from side to side across the pillow and, depending how we handle them*, they may wear out as they slide across the cover cloth. If that cloth is at all rough the friction between the cloth and the threads passing across it can cause the damage to the bobbin threads. To minimumize the damage caused in this way choose a smooth fine fabric for the cover cloth. If you fold the edge over press it to make it as flat as possible. I have heard it said that polyester is more rough than pure cotton, but I have seen no evidence of this. It probably depends more on the particular fabric, how fine the individual threads are and its weave. Some lacemakers use the selvedge as the top edge, it is flatter but sometimes it can be rough - so check first. As I said before, a remedy is to use a strip of polythene, several inches wide, across the top edge of the cloth. (*Some hold bobbins higher off the pillow, a stronger tension will increase the friction etc.) I hope this answers your query. I am well aware that the English language is imperfect at the best of times and it is notoriously easy to misinterpret. Happy lacemaking Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
