VM VSE linux/390 Employment Web Page
Greetings; (Posted to VMESA-L and VSE-L and LINUX-390) - - Now in its sixth year! - - Includes VSE and linux/390! I have set up a public service web page at http://www.eskimo.com/~wix/vm/ for posting positions available and wanted for VM, VSE and linux/390. Please visit the web page for more information and feel free to send me any info you would like to have posted. Please make VM or VSE or linux/390 the first word in the subject. Questions and comments welcome! (Text or html OK. No java, gifs, .DOC, etc. NO RESUMES or CVs!) === Please check the web pages for === === examples before sending your ad! === Good luck, Dennis VM VSE linux/390 Positions Available last updated Jul 7. VM VSE linux/390 Positions Wanted last updated Jul 7. 236250 07/08/04 00:05:02 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
APL is still heavily used by insurance companies to calculate their non-standard insurances for large companies, where the normal routines won't work due to special conditions etc. APL development is very fast compared to other (compiled) languages. I don't do it myself, but I am told so by lots of colleagues. Regards Bernd Am Mit, 07 Jul 2004 schrieben Sie: Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine I know, I could feel the stirring all the way here.BG Seriously though, what's wrong with APL? It's got a good history behind it, a good track record behind it. Granted it has a less then stellar acceptance record, and its syntax is strange, and the only use that I can remember was in the construction of the S/360, and S/370 families. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
In the 70's three companies based their businesses on APL-based time sharing services: Scientific Computing (Wash. DC), SECOS (Poughkeepsie) and another in Toronto and it was popular in universities. For a time before networking as we know it today existed, that was pretty impressive. Harold Grovesteen Gregg C Levine wrote: Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine I know, I could feel the stirring all the way here.BG Seriously though, what's wrong with APL? It's got a good history behind it, a good track record behind it. Granted it has a less then stellar acceptance record, and its syntax is strange, and the only use that I can remember was in the construction of the S/360, and S/370 families. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Progress on PL/1 for Linux So I end up coding in whatever language I can get the task done most quickly and easily. Sometimes it's Rexx, sometimes it's assembler, sometimes it's fortran, sometimes it's C, sometimes it's shell script. Makes for Job Security, because often I'll have one module call another and they're not written in the same language and no one but me can follow it. The Force is strong in this one8-). Shades of VMS. I always liked the fact that VMS Engineering deliberately coded at least one important system utility in each DEC-supported language in order to require the marketing nitwits to ship all the run-time libraries for all the supported language compilers pre-installed at no charge to the customer. Hmm. There may be a moral here. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX- 390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Cost
Hi everyone, My company is willing to deploy a project under Linux S/390. Weve got a Multiprise 3000 and are looking ahead for a SuSe Enterprise Server 8.0, but providers (Novell) have sent an offer around 5.400 . It seems to be a little expensive, is these the real cost of the Enterprise Server? Thanks in advance and apologize my poor english. Jorge Puente -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Cost
Last I checked (which has been a while), the euro was running pretty close to the dollar, so the price is probably right. If you really want to provide official support for SUSE, you may need to just do it. There are a few free alternatives available now that look quite good. But it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority of production shops are currently running SUSE. On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 06:59, EXT-JPB, Jorge Puente BeltrC!n. wrote: Hi everyone, My company is willing to deploy a project under Linux S/390. WeB4ve got a Multiprise 3000 and are looking ahead for a SuSe Enterprise Server 8.0, but providers (Novell) have sent an offer around 5.400 b ,. It seems to be a little expensive, B?is these the real cost of the Enterprise Server? Thanks in advance and apologize my poor english. Jorge Puente -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Rich Smrcina illustro Systems International, LLC --- See The Light--- Visit www.illustro.com to experience: z/Web-Host -- Easy Web-enabling for your Mainframe z/XML-Host -- Easy XML Enablement for your Mainframe Tel: +1.214.800.8900 Fax: +1.214.800.8989 Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2005 - Colorado Springs - May 20-24, 2005 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Filesystem conversion ext2 to Reiserfs
Just thought i would ask to see if there are any tools out there for this. Is there any way to convert ext2 to Reiserfs without looseing any data? Is there a tool for this? TIA Cameron Seader mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
I do not run a very complicated linux subsystem, but I do use a shared read-only /usr minidisk. This one disk is 2500 cylinders and is shared by 3 production machines. My simple savings is 5000 cylinders, but the basic calculation for savings would be (Nservers - 1) * 2500 = total cylinders saved For your environment that could be (20 - 1) * 2500 = 47500 cylinders = 4.7 3390-9 volumes /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 09:02 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/ sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/ sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
APL is still heavily used by insurance companies to calculate their non-standard insurances for large companies, where the normal routines won't work due to special conditions etc. Also in a lot of the financial services companies. I remember a presentation from Jeff Savit while he was still at Merrill Lynch about supporting some of their real-time brokerage apps which were completely done in VS APL on VM. A few years back, but I remember being really impressed that something that complicated could actually be written in APL. I'm not sure how much of that code survives, but if you wanted to give a broker the ability to do some really powerful math on returns or such in very few keystrokes, APL would be exactly the right tool to do it. APL development is very fast compared to other (compiled) languages. I don't do it myself, but I am told so by lots of colleagues. For what it was designed to do, APL is very, very powerful (eats big numeric problems for breakfast, and it's unbelievably concise). It's biggest flaws (and IMHO, the things that killed it) were the requirement for custom symbol sets on displays and the inability to discuss programming in it without having a standard method to note the symbols in environments without the special symbol sets. It'd be less of a problem today with the prevalence of pixel-addressible displays, but at that time, Mathematica and Macsyma were a lot easier to use and implement, and didn't require special (and expensive) terminals. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Filesystem conversion ext2 to Reiserfs
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 08:06, Seader, Cameron wrote: Just thought i would ask to see if there are any tools out there for this. Is there any way to convert ext2 to Reiserfs without looseing any data? Is there a tool for this? TIA tar, or cp -a. Nothing that I know of that can convert it in place. I have had bad experiences with ReiserFS under very heavy load on S/390. Your mileage may vary. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
LDAP/ACF2 PAM Interface
Has anyone successfully configured PAM to use LDAP and talk to ACF2/LDAP? If so would you be willing to share your experiences in doing so? I've got zLinux LDAP talking to ACF2/LDAP but i can not authenticate the user. I get a ldap_search type message which leads me to think I'll not querying the correct object in ACF2. If anyone knows of a good doc on this and can point me to it that would help also. TIA William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Engineer I (614) 213-4954 (877) 899-1697 Pager (614) 244-9897 Fax http://www.bankone.com This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? At least a dozen of our customers do. CA obviously does (see Bill's paper). It's proven to be a pretty good choice when you need a lot of fairly similar machines that don't change configuration too often. How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? It depends a lot on how well-behaved your applications are in terms of keeping all their files together. A lot of ISVs violate Mother's Second Rule (Thou Shalt Not Mix Your Code and System Code), which makes it more a maintenance issue than a disk space issue. IF your application is well-behaved enough to keep all it's pieces together, then it makes a fair amount of difference. Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? No, because in the case of Oracle and a lot of the ISV software you mentioned, the application wants to dump code outside the directory that holds the main binaries. You also need to have write access to the RPM catalog and some other stuff (something I consider to be a design flaw in RPM -- no provision for concatenated user and system software catalogs). /home is difficult because of the multi-system caching problem -- virtal machines are really separate systems, and each does separate caches of R/W data that are completely ignorant of each other. Without something like AFS or GFS to coordinate writes, you get bad corruption problems. Best solution there is to use NFS or one of the more sophisticated filesystems mentioned previously to handle /home. Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? See above. You're somewhat mixing up two problems: shared resources and operational maintenance. The basevol/guestvol concept is attempting to handle the operational maintenance problem (ie, how do you distribute fixes and do configuration control). Sharing disks takes it into configuration management (how do I share binaries, but deal with the fact that the applications expect stuff to appear in places outside the directory holding the binaries). Best is a hard thing to define. What I'd suggest is: 1) Use the basevol/guestvol setup to manage the system configuration information and /usr, which tend not to be particularly volatile (changes are usually infrequent). 2) Set up a separate guest LAN and create some dedicated guests for the function of NFS file servers. Mount the shared application information via NFS, ie /opt, /usr/local, etc. Same thing for shared R/W filesystems like /home. 2a) (more sophisticated variation) Set up separate guest LAN and use some dedicated guests as AFS servers. This takes more sophistication at the start, but it's more scalable and secure than NFS, and allows better disk management from a enterprise standpoint. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? Not out of the box -- it's a configuration decision, not a code thing. It requires modifying two of the SuSE startup scripts to overmount the common /etc with the system specific ones during boot. How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? Very. Maintenance planning is the key to making this work. Day to day, it's a no-brainer. I'd venture to say that if more ISVs used a method like this, we'd finally be able to stamp out the assumption that it's OK to scatter files around the filesystem, and end up with a lot better world. I'm *very* glad that CA has adopted this approach. Now we need to work on IBM, and Tivoli, and ... 8-( -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance We ran with a variation on basevol/guestvol when we were initially trying out RH 7.2. The only difference was that we had multiple guestvols per image split by mountpoint, so someone filling up /home would not impact /var (like it would have with the single-filesystem guestvol). At any rate, the DASD savings for each of your guests are as large as the basevol. There are also nice security perks, as your binaries are all RO even to root, etc, which is another layer of protection against bad things happening, accidental or otherwise. However, it was difficult to get the maintenance onto the RO devices without significant disruptions to the guests when running with the basevol/guestvol model, so when we switched to our SLES8 eval we abandoned basevol/guestvol with the intent of reconsidering it in the future. This was our first SuSE install, we weren't sure how much we'd tweak our base image, and the hoops we needed to go through to update any package on the RO basevol was a little painful. Right now we only have around 10 guests, so it's still manageable, but if the numbers start increasing then we may go back to a basevol/guestvol-type system. The initial time and effort was rather small, the real issue was the effort that went into applying any updates and keeping the rpm database current on each guest. Stability was no problem. Rather than go the basevol/guestvol extreme, I think most people doing DASD sharing just do specific mountpoints like /usr readonly. You mention /home, and you typically wouldn't have /home RO, but anything that can be RO across images (particularly filesystems that rarely need updating) can be shared. Just ensure that any minidisks linked RO are added to the linux dasd device driver ro (like with zipl.conf parameters=1000(ro),...) in addition to your fstab. This approach is more directly supported out of the box, as the basevol/guestvol approach will require some minor customization of the SuSE startup scripts and is a bit exotic, but having a mountpoint or two like /usr RO is fairly common practice. ~ Daniel -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 09:41, Daniel Jarboe wrote: the real issue was the effort that went into applying any updates and keeping the rpm database current on each guest. Stability was no problem. I haven't found a better way to do this than a sacrificial clone of the pre-service basevol attached r/w to each guest before you apply the per-disk service. After you've done that, reIPL the guest with the shared (updated) r/o disk, and reimage the sacrificial disk with the pre-service state, and move on to the next guest. Is there a better way? Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Cost
I just checked the pricing at http://www.novell.com/licensing/price.html From what I can tell, the current list price of SLES8 on a Multiprise is $9,319.00, which translates to 7.515,32 . Sounds like they're giving you a good deal. If you're not running z/VM, then yes, that's going to be expensive, but you can create multiple LPARs with just one license, so you can drop the per-image price that way. If you are running z/VM, then it becomes easier to create multiple Linux/390 systems. I'm not sure if Novell/SUSE has a maximum number of images per license or not. You might want to check with whomever gave you the quote to make sure. Finally, stop apologizing for your poor English. Your written English is better than a lot of people born in the US. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of EXT-JPB, Jorge Puente Beltrn. Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cost Hi everyone, My company is willing to deploy a project under Linux S/390. Weve got a Multiprise 3000 and are looking ahead for a SuSe Enterprise Server 8.0, but providers (Novell) have sent an offer around 5.400 . It seems to be a little expensive, is these the real cost of the Enterprise Server? Thanks in advance and apologize my poor english. Jorge Puente -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Filesystem conversion ext2 to Reiserfs
Nothing that will convert in-place. If you just want a journaling file system, and not reiserfs in particular, you can convert from ext2 to ext3 in place (and back again, as needed). man tune2fs will give you the syntax. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Filesystem conversion ext2 to Reiserfs Just thought i would ask to see if there are any tools out there for this. Is there any way to convert ext2 to Reiserfs without looseing any data? Is there a tool for this? TIA Cameron Seader mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
-Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux snip For what it was designed to do, APL is very, very powerful (eats big numeric problems for breakfast, and it's unbelievably concise). It's biggest flaws (and IMHO, the things that killed it) were the requirement for custom symbol sets on displays and the inability to discuss programming in it without having a standard method to note the symbols in environments without the special symbol sets. It'd be less of a problem today with the prevalence of pixel-addressible displays, but at that time, Mathematica and Macsyma were a lot easier to use and implement, and didn't require special (and expensive) terminals. FWIW - Ken Iverson, the father of APL, has created another language called J which has all the power of APL without the need for the special symbols. http://www.jsoftware.com/ IIRC, APL was originally designed to concisely write algorithms for mathematical papers and not as an implementation on a computer. And mathematicians were already using those weird symbols. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer UICI Insurance Center Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its' content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA -Cameron -Original Message- From: Kern, Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning I do not run a very complicated linux subsystem, but I do use a shared read-only /usr minidisk. This one disk is 2500 cylinders and is shared by 3 production machines. My simple savings is 5000 cylinders, but the basic calculation for savings would be (Nservers - 1) * 2500 = total cylinders saved For your environment that could be (20 - 1) * 2500 = 47500 cylinders = 4.7 3390-9 volumes /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 09:02 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/ sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/ sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
This triggered a long forgotten memory. I don't know PL/1 syntax, but the problem goes something like this: declare x as two digits; declare y as two digits; declare z as three digits; x = 30; y = 70; z = x + y; At this point z is zero because the add of x and y is done with two digits of accuracy. I think that the rule is that the add is done in the size of the largest item, which is two in my example. I was going to say that the compiler should warn about this, but I don't see how it could, knowing how parsing of the expression is done. There is a similar problem with COBOL, but COBOL programmers do this: move 30 to x. move 70 to y. move x to z. add y to z. This results in the add being done in three digits. COBOL programmers avoid the compute statement because it would have the same result as the PL/1 example. -Original Message- From: Nix, Robert P. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux The demonstration I was given used three variables, all falling to the default definitions (it's been too long to remember the specific letters used; sorry). Two of the variables are assigned very large values, and the third is set to a very small value, all positive. The three variables are added together to return a result. Because of the intermediate temporary variables selected by PL/I to store the partial results, both ends of the resulting value are truncated, leaving zero. There is no error or warning; you just get a zero result, even though the result could have been correctly represented had better intermediates been chosen. You can get this to happen in many languages... just not as readily. Most make better choices of intermediate variables, and most warn you when something like this happens at runtime, or at least let you trap the error if you desire. Robert P. Nixinternet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mayo Clinic phone: 507-284-0844 RO-CE-8-857page: 507-270-1182 200 First St. SW Rochester, MN 55905 Codito, Ergo Sum In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Schaffer Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux It's been a very long time since I last used PL/I, but I don't remember anything about its arithmetic which would give this result. IIRC it basically used the underlying 360/370 hardware for arithmetic. Could you say more about this intriguing error? --henry schaffer -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
The production copy of the /usr minidisk is NEVER linked RW by anyone. I have a separate maintenance instance where I install and maintain the linux system. It has a /usr minidisk of the same size as the production /usr minidisk. Both minidisks are OWNED by a placeholder named LNXDASD at virtual addresses 1000 and 1001. When I am ready to put a new /usr into production, I properly shutdown the maintenance user and the first of the production servers. I modify the directory entry of the first production user to use the new /usr minidisk (ie change LINK LNXDASD 1000 0592 RR to LINK LNXDASD 1001 0592 RR). Then I bring up the production server and make any local changes necessary like copy files from /usr/upgrade/sbin to /sbin, or /usr/upgrade/etc to /etc. I test that server and when I am satisfied that it works there as well as it did in the maintenance/test server, I move to the next production server and repeat. When ALL production servers are using the new /usr, I DDR copy the production level /usr minidisk (now 1001) to the old minidisk (1000) and modify the maintenance user's directory entry to use the 1000 minidisk for /usr and start all over again. Until this point, my backout is to switch the server back to the old /usr minidisk, ipl and fix local files. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA -Cameron -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
Hi, I've found William Sculley's basevol/guestvol approach to be fairly simple to set up. It's too bad that I goofed somewhere, as I can't get past my read-only root volume problems (with initrd). If I can get past this problem, the setup looks extremely promising (i.e., cloned images would only need 150cyl R/W minidisks as a starting minimum). Has anyone else run into problems with R/O root disks? Something in initrd wants that disk R/W. Adam suggested changing the parmline to something like DASD=150(ro), ... but once that is done, you lose the ability to update the basevol root disk (or a copy of it). Many thanks, Arty -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 10:27, Seader, Cameron wrote: How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA It should be read-only to everyone. Because of Linux file caching, if anyone has a write link to it, everyone's view of it is possibly inconsistent. One guest--the maintenance master--should own it but should usually be logged off. Everyone else should have a read link to it. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
We tried making /usr a ro minidisk. It did not work for us. When we had to upgrade our kernel using an RPM, it failed since it tried to load files to the /usr which was not owned by the clone. How did you get around this ? Alan Levy W: 718-403-8020 C: 347-203-0638 Nextel: 172*26*9628 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern, Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning The production copy of the /usr minidisk is NEVER linked RW by anyone. I have a separate maintenance instance where I install and maintain the linux system. It has a /usr minidisk of the same size as the production /usr minidisk. Both minidisks are OWNED by a placeholder named LNXDASD at virtual addresses 1000 and 1001. When I am ready to put a new /usr into production, I properly shutdown the maintenance user and the first of the production servers. I modify the directory entry of the first production user to use the new /usr minidisk (ie change LINK LNXDASD 1000 0592 RR to LINK LNXDASD 1001 0592 RR). Then I bring up the production server and make any local changes necessary like copy files from /usr/upgrade/sbin to /sbin, or /usr/upgrade/etc to /etc. I test that server and when I am satisfied that it works there as well as it did in the maintenance/test server, I move to the next production server and repeat. When ALL production servers are using the new /usr, I DDR copy the production level /usr minidisk (now 1001) to the old minidisk (1000) and modify the maintenance user's directory entry to use the 1000 minidisk for /usr and start all over again. Until this point, my backout is to switch the server back to the old /usr minidisk, ipl and fix local files. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA -Cameron -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 10:37, Arty Ecock wrote: Has anyone else run into problems with R/O root disks? Do you run into problems other than that it complains about it? Something in initrd wants that disk R/W. Adam suggested changing the parmline to something like DASD=150(ro), ... but once that is done, you lose the ability to update the basevol root disk (or a copy of it). Use multiple parmlines. There's the older Lucius Leland PARM LINE stuff, which I really like, which lets you do it very flexibly from CMS, and there's also actual official multiboot support in newer s390-tools. Keep a read-only and a read-write version around, and IPL the one appropriate to the occasion. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 11:03, Levy, Alan wrote: We tried making /usr a ro minidisk. It did not work for us. When we had to upgrade our kernel using an RPM, it failed since it tried to load files to the /usr which was not owned by the clone. How did you get around this ? For applying maintenance, you need two additional disks: one contains a DDR image of the /usr disk before maintenance, and one is a scratch disk that gets a DDR image of the pre-maintenance-/usr, and is mounted r/w to the guest. You IPL the guest with that read-write volume in place, apply maintenance, shut down the guest, and reIPL with the shared (updated) read-only DASD. Then you reimage the scratch disk from the pre-maintenance /usr and move to the next guest. Yes, this is a big pain in the butt. If there's a better way to do this, please tell me. Doing it with filesystems in EW saved segments (which you then discarded in favor of a non-writable segment) might work but seems like it would consume a lot of real storage. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
My setup is quite simplistic. ALL servers are running the same kernel and the same /usr. If I need to update the linux system, I do it on the maintenance server and then propogate it to ALL production servers. This might not work for a complex set of servers (database servers vs webservers), but there you could have parallel maintenace systems. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Levy, Alan Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:04 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We tried making /usr a ro minidisk. It did not work for us. When we had to upgrade our kernel using an RPM, it failed since it tried to load files to the /usr which was not owned by the clone. How did you get around this ? Alan Levy W: 718-403-8020 C: 347-203-0638 Nextel: 172*26*9628 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern, Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning The production copy of the /usr minidisk is NEVER linked RW by anyone. I have a separate maintenance instance where I install and maintain the linux system. It has a /usr minidisk of the same size as the production /usr minidisk. Both minidisks are OWNED by a placeholder named LNXDASD at virtual addresses 1000 and 1001. When I am ready to put a new /usr into production, I properly shutdown the maintenance user and the first of the production servers. I modify the directory entry of the first production user to use the new /usr minidisk (ie change LINK LNXDASD 1000 0592 RR to LINK LNXDASD 1001 0592 RR). Then I bring up the production server and make any local changes necessary like copy files from /usr/upgrade/sbin to /sbin, or /usr/upgrade/etc to /etc. I test that server and when I am satisfied that it works there as well as it did in the maintenance/test server, I move to the next production server and repeat. When ALL production servers are using the new /usr, I DDR copy the production level /usr minidisk (now 1001) to the old minidisk (1000) and modify the maintenance user's directory entry to use the 1000 minidisk for /usr and start all over again. Until this point, my backout is to switch the server back to the old /usr minidisk, ipl and fix local files. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA -Cameron -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
For your environment that could be (20 - 1) * 2500 = 47500 cylinders = 4.7 3390-9 volumes Less than $1500. Is it worth it? Marcy Cortes -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
I don't get to buy DASD. I get to use whatever the MVS group doesn't want today. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcy Cortes Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning For your environment that could be (20 - 1) * 2500 = 47500 cylinders = 4.7 3390-9 volumes Less than $1500. Is it worth it? Marcy Cortes -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
Hi,
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:45:36 -0700, Fargusson.Alan wrote:
This triggered a long forgotten memory. I don't know PL/1 syntax, but the problem
goes something like this:
declare x as two digits;
declare y as two digits;
declare z as three digits;
x = 30;
y = 70;
z = x + y;
At this point z is zero because the add of x and y is done with two digits of
accuracy.
...
All PL/1 implementations I know use for the intermediate result of
fixed(p1,q1) +/- fixed(p2,q2)
q = max(q1,q2)
p = 1 + max(p1-q1,p2-q2) + q
p may be limited due to harware capability.
In this case the program should catch an exception - if not disabled.
With floating point operands the smaller may be neglected if the
difference in exponent magnitude exeeds mantissa length.
But thats not PL/1. It depends on the harware.
= intermediate_
for fixed point
I think that the rule is that the add is done in the size of the largest item, which
is two in my example. I was going to say that the compiler should warn about this,
but I don't see how it could, knowing how parsing of the expression is done.
There is a similar problem with COBOL, but COBOL programmers do this:
move 30 to x.
move 70 to y.
move x to z.
add y to z.
This results in the add being done in three digits. COBOL programmers avoid the
compute statement because it would have the same result as the PL/1 example.
-Original Message-
From: Nix, Robert P. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
The demonstration I was given used three variables, all falling to the default
definitions (it's been too long to remember the specific letters used; sorry). Two
of the variables are assigned very large values, and the third is set to a very
small value, all positive. The three variables are added together to return a
result. Because of the intermediate temporary variables selected by PL/I to store
the partial results, both ends of the resulting value are truncated, leaving zero.
There is no error or warning; you just get a zero result, even though the result
could have been correctly represented had better intermediates been chosen.
You can get this to happen in many languages... just not as readily. Most make
better choices of intermediate variables, and most warn you when something like this
happens at runtime, or at least let you trap the error if you desire.
Robert P. Nixinternet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mayo Clinic phone: 507-284-0844
RO-CE-8-857page: 507-270-1182
200 First St. SW
Rochester, MN 55905
Codito, Ergo Sum
In theory, theory and practice are the same,
but in practice, theory and practice are different.
-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Schaffer
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:56 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
It's been a very long time since I last used PL/I, but I don't
remember anything about its arithmetic which would give this result.
IIRC it basically used the underlying 360/370 hardware for arithmetic.
Could you say more about this intriguing error?
--henry schaffer
--
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--
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---
Albert
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Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
FWIW - Ken Iverson, the father of APL, has created another language called J which has all the power of APL without the need for the special symbols. http://www.jsoftware.com/ Yeah, J is pretty cool. Beats Matlab up one side and down the other. IIRC, APL was originally designed to concisely write algorithms for mathematical papers and not as an implementation on a computer. And mathematicians were already using those weird symbols. Yeah, but the *engineers* weren't using them in programming, and Real Math for publication was still being typset by hand, mostly. Twas a very rare terminal that had an APL character set PROM, or that had a downloadable character set buffer. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
That's been the case here too. Slowly changing... At least I'm hoping it is. Sometimes knowing the real costs can help your case. Marcy Cortes This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. -Original Message- From: Kern, Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 09:16 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Linux under VM and Cloning I don't get to buy DASD. I get to use whatever the MVS group doesn't want today. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcy Cortes Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning For your environment that could be (20 - 1) * 2500 = 47500 cylinders = 4.7 3390-9 volumes Less than $1500. Is it worth it? Marcy Cortes -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
APL and the like (was: Progress on PL/1 for Linux)
Disclaimer: While I am currently employed by IBM, APL is *NOT* something
I've ever dealt with within IBM. My experience w/ APL was on Xerox Sigma-9
systems running CP-V (and I didn't have the right typeball so it wasn't a
lot of fun).
That disclaimer being said, APL is a VERY powerful and expressive language
which makes it easy for a practitioner to write functional code.
So is Perl. And, IIRC, LISP. There are others, of course, but none
immediately come to mind. (I suspect we can have a contest to name
languages that are even MORE write-only... to me, RPG is W/O but that's
only because I don't know it.)
The problem *I* saw was that APL's structure doesn't make clear and
concise documentation easy because of it's expressiveness and subtlety.
Expressive languages that allow great compression of thought are much
harder to adequately explain to others; APL, like LISP (and a lot of Perl
code I've perused) appears to be a write-only language... and I suspect
any language as expressive will suffer the same fate. The skill level
required to *read* such code goes up (and up).
APL is certainly not alone in having been called write-only; any language
can be rendered write-only (even COBOL!) but the facilities to provide
adequate commentary are, as I dimly recall, not simple. Given the
compression the expressiveness of the language, it strikes me that it'd
need 100 lines of commentary to explain one line of actual code. (OK, so
I'm exaggerating.)
(I will admit that reasonably accurate and expressive commentary in Perl
inflates a module size but impressive factors. C isn't as expressive and
so doesn't inflate so quickly.)
That being said...
It was really cool to write stuff in. I've forgotten most of it over the
last 27+ years, of course...
Oh, yeah... about commentary... source code is not only how you talk to a
computer but is also how you talk to those who follow you in maintaining
code. Learning how to comment code to give the maintainer background in
*how* you were thinking and making a code block's raison d'etre clear by
explaining *why* it exists is not something that happens over-night.
As for PL/I? I'm probably gonna take a look. Thanks for the links.
John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines (GNUrd) {813-356|697}-5322
Adsumo ergo raptus sum
MacOS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging
Windows.
Red Hat Certified Engineer (#803004680310286)
IBM Certified: IBM AIX 4.3 System Administration, System Support
- Forwarded by John Campbell/Tampa/IBM on 07/08/2004 12:21 PM -
Bernd Oppolzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-online.de cc:
Sent by: Linux onSubject: Re: [LINUX-390] Progress on
PL/1 for Linux
390 Port
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IST.EDU
07/08/2004 05:07
AM
Please respond to
Linux on 390 Port
APL is still heavily used by insurance companies to calculate their
non-standard insurances for large companies, where the normal routines
won't work due to special conditions etc.
APL development is very fast compared to other (compiled) languages.
I don't do it myself, but I am told so by lots of colleagues.
Regards
Bernd
Am Mit, 07 Jul 2004 schrieben Sie:
Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I know, I could feel the stirring all the way here.BG
Seriously though, what's wrong with APL? It's got a good history
behind it, a good track record behind it. Granted it has a less then
stellar acceptance record, and its syntax is strange, and the only use
that I can remember was in the construction of the S/360, and S/370
families.
---
Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi
Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Re: APL and the like (was: Progress on PL/1 for Linux)
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 12:16, John Campbell wrote: (I suspect we can have a contest to name languages that are even MORE write-only... to me, RPG is W/O but that's only because I don't know it.) INTERCAL, and, of course, the nine-letter language that begins with Brain and ends with a common expletive. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
If you want to save yourself some serious time and headaches, there are always the two commercial products that do all this for you: Levanta Deployment Manager for Linux Neither one is cheap, but both greatly improve your productivity and ability to manage many instances of Linux/390. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
I know about Levanta, but I've never heard of Deployment Manager for Linux. Who makes it? Post, Mark K [EMAIL PROTECTED] m To Sent by: Linux on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 390 Port cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU Subject Re: Linux under VM and Cloning 07/08/2004 12:44 PM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU If you want to save yourself some serious time and headaches, there are always the two commercial products that do all this for you: Levanta Deployment Manager for Linux Neither one is cheap, but both greatly improve your productivity and ability to manage many instances of Linux/390. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
It was originally developed by Aduva (under a different name), but then Aduva and BMC formed a strategic partnership. The DML name is what BMC uses. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Melin Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning I know about Levanta, but I've never heard of Deployment Manager for Linux. Who makes it? Post, Mark K [EMAIL PROTECTED] m To Sent by: Linux on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 390 Port cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU Subject Re: Linux under VM and Cloning 07/08/2004 12:44 PM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU If you want to save yourself some serious time and headaches, there are always the two commercial products that do all this for you: Levanta Deployment Manager for Linux Neither one is cheap, but both greatly improve your productivity and ability to manage many instances of Linux/390. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? It seems that you would definately save on DASD, but how much is the Question. Does SUSE support the basevol/guestvol out of the box, or are their some packages that need installing to make this work? How stable is it running under this basevol/guestvol scenario? hopefully this is not too much to ask question wise. Thanks in advance Hope you all can help. Cameron Seader -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning This might be of some help. Some people on the mailing list have implemented the basevol/guestvol scheme described here http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246824.html Also, Bill Scully has a presentation for a simplified version of this at http://linuxvm.org/present/misc/basevol.html There's also a chapter on cloning Linux images in this Redbook http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246299.html Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Griffin, John G Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Linux under VM and Cloning We have just installed vm 4.4 and are running Linux (SuSE 8). Our 1st linux virtual machine (directory entry) runs as follows :- vadddescription sizevolume -- - -- -- 191 standard minidisk 0050 cyls 440w02 301 linux root 3338 cyls lxpb01 302 linux boot 0029 cyls lxpb01 303 linux opt 2145 cyls lxpb01 304 linux usr 1500 cyls lxpb01 305 linux var 1500 cyls lxpb01 306 linux home 1500 cyls lxpb01 My questions is we want to have one volume that all linuxes use their software from (both kernel and third party software, as on our linux we have db2 and some candle products) and 1 volume that is user specific so that when we are required to clone another linux vm we can just clone the volume that the system software is on. As for directory entries we use vmsecure so any automation we setup would have to take this into account. Thanks and Regards John Griffin (z/OS Technical Support) Office: +44 (0)207 500 6286 Mobile: +44 (0)7764 823213 Fax:+44 (0)207 500 0226 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
If the RPM updates the root of the clone, then how do you update the kernel on a maintenance server and propagate it ? You cannot propagate the root. Alan Levy W: 718-403-8020 C: 347-203-0638 Nextel: 172*26*9628 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern, Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning My setup is quite simplistic. ALL servers are running the same kernel and the same /usr. If I need to update the linux system, I do it on the maintenance server and then propogate it to ALL production servers. This might not work for a complex set of servers (database servers vs webservers), but there you could have parallel maintenace systems. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Levy, Alan Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:04 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We tried making /usr a ro minidisk. It did not work for us. When we had to upgrade our kernel using an RPM, it failed since it tried to load files to the /usr which was not owned by the clone. How did you get around this ? Alan Levy W: 718-403-8020 C: 347-203-0638 Nextel: 172*26*9628 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern, Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning The production copy of the /usr minidisk is NEVER linked RW by anyone. I have a separate maintenance instance where I install and maintain the linux system. It has a /usr minidisk of the same size as the production /usr minidisk. Both minidisks are OWNED by a placeholder named LNXDASD at virtual addresses 1000 and 1001. When I am ready to put a new /usr into production, I properly shutdown the maintenance user and the first of the production servers. I modify the directory entry of the first production user to use the new /usr minidisk (ie change LINK LNXDASD 1000 0592 RR to LINK LNXDASD 1001 0592 RR). Then I bring up the production server and make any local changes necessary like copy files from /usr/upgrade/sbin to /sbin, or /usr/upgrade/etc to /etc. I test that server and when I am satisfied that it works there as well as it did in the maintenance/test server, I move to the next production server and repeat. When ALL production servers are using the new /usr, I DDR copy the production level /usr minidisk (now 1001) to the old minidisk (1000) and modify the maintenance user's directory entry to use the 1000 minidisk for /usr and start all over again. Until this point, my backout is to switch the server back to the old /usr minidisk, ipl and fix local files. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seader, Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning How did you setup that read-only /usr minidisk? did you link to a minidisk from VM or is it mounted on another guest as read-write? TIA -Cameron -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 12:53, Levy, Alan wrote: If the RPM updates the root of the clone, then how do you update the kernel on a maintenance server and propagate it ? You cannot propagate the root. All maintenance has to be applied once per guest, unless it only touches the read-only shared parts of the DASD. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
It looks like there are some on eBay. On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 12:55, David Boyes wrote: (and I didn't have the right typeball so it wasn't a lot of fun). Ah, the magic ball...! I have a brand-new APL ball in the display case in the lab...8-) Speaking of typeballs, does anyone know if there's somewhere in the world where I could acquire a genuine Selectric II or III? None of the DC-area thrift or business machine suppliers have any left. 8-( Why? I find myself wanting a REAL typewriter now and again, and all the modern ones have keyboards and mechanisms that pretty much stink (I'm a good 25-30 wpm faster on a Selectric than anything made since). A 2741 would also work (I have repair manuals for those). Color not important (although one of the classic brick red or IBM blue ones would be *really* cool). There's something about that ker-THUNK! hu of the Selectic power on that's fun...8-) -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Rich Smrcina illustro Systems International, LLC --- See The Light--- Visit www.illustro.com to experience: z/Web-Host -- Easy Web-enabling for your Mainframe z/XML-Host -- Easy XML Enablement for your Mainframe Tel: +1.214.800.8900 Fax: +1.214.800.8989 Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2005 - Colorado Springs - May 20-24, 2005 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
I am not enough of a linux sysadmin to have everything automated. Somethings just must be done by hand. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Levy, Alan Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 13:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning If the RPM updates the root of the clone, then how do you update the kernel on a maintenance server and propagate it ? You cannot propagate the root. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:55:37 -0400, David Boyes wrote: Why? I find myself wanting a REAL typewriter now and again, and all the modern ones have keyboards and mechanisms that pretty much stink (I'm a good 25-30 wpm faster on a Selectric than anything made since). A 2741 would also work (I have repair manuals for those). Color not important (although one of the classic brick red or IBM blue ones would be *really* cool). There's something about that ker-THUNK! hu of the Selectic power on that's fun...8-) -- db And the Selectric ones slowed me down. I was used to the older typewriters, and when I had to switch to a Selectric, my accuracy went way down because the ball couldn't keep up. I have an old portable (non-IBM) at home that uses the ball. I don't use it much, but still use it from time to time. It even has a parallel port on the side to use it as a printer. Lloyd Fuller Select Business Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] (203)383-4692 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
Do you remember when Exxon got into the typewriter business sometime in the late 70's or early 80's? Now wouldn't that be a find! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/08/04 01:55PM (and I didn't have the right typeball so it wasn't a lot of fun). Ah, the magic ball...! I have a brand-new APL ball in the display case in the lab...8-) Speaking of typeballs, does anyone know if there's somewhere in the world where I could acquire a genuine Selectric II or III? None of the DC-area thrift or business machine suppliers have any left. 8-( Why? I find myself wanting a REAL typewriter now and again, and all the modern ones have keyboards and mechanisms that pretty much stink (I'm a good 25-30 wpm faster on a Selectric than anything made since). A 2741 would also work (I have repair manuals for those). Color not important (although one of the classic brick red or IBM blue ones would be *really* cool). There's something about that ker-THUNK! hu of the Selectic power on that's fun...8-) -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
On Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:48 AM Adam Thornton wrote: On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 09:41, Daniel Jarboe wrote: the real issue was the effort that went into applying any updates and keeping the rpm database current on each guest. Stability was no problem. I haven't found a better way to do this than a sacrificial clone of the pre-service basevol attached r/w to each guest before you apply the per-disk service. After you've done that, reIPL the guest with the shared (updated) r/o disk, and reimage the sacrificial disk with the pre-service state, and move on to the next guest. Is there a better way? We arrived at our process after quite a bit of discussion on the list... someone was doing something similar to what we ended up with. We did the rpm -Uhv's on a copy of the current production basevol (not each guest), and then ipled each guest off the basevol during that guest's window. BUT, before we applied the maintenance on the basevol, we manually checked to ensure that that upgrade did not change guestvol files. Also, we manually checked rpm -qp file.rpm --scripts to ensure nothing there would touch guestvol files. In all our RH rpm updates, I don't remember any needing special action on the guests except maybe a one-liner a single package needed to rebuild a file. This required us to run that script on each of the guests, but this too we put in the startup scripts on the basevol so the guest could do it automatically the first time it came up, based on whether a file existed on the guestvol. Nothing fancy, but it was sufficient. It still required an IPL of the guest just to update one measly binary, though, because everything was shared RO. We also shared the rpm database r/o, but that isn't necessarily a requirement. You can rpm -Uhv --justdb the maintenance on each of the guests if you want each to have its own R/W rpm db without adding a second db. Again this worked because except for rare exceptions, the maintenance never changed guestvol files. For new package installs, you'd need to get the guestvol files there, but again this could be automated in the basevol startup scripts by checking if a file existed and if not untar a tarball. ~ Daniel -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
The keyboard of the estimable Rich Smrcina at some point emitted: It looks like there are some on eBay. So there were. Even more fascinating, a bunch of 2731s WITH the System/370 console controller attachment cable. And a STOP/RUN switch box -- looks like a bunch of System/370 surplus consoles. Wonder where they've been stored. $25 each. Cheap at twice the price. I'm now a happy owner of a Selectric II. Thanks, Rich. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up A lot of people do it this way. I gave a paper on it at SHARE. You can see a copy at http://linuxvm.org/present/SHARE101/S9343GWa.pdf It covers a wide gamut of the problems of managing multiple Linux servers running under VM. Lately, however, we've been beginning to have second thoughts. When we started the scheme detailed in the presentation, we thought a whole 3390-3 was a lot of dasd and were trying to save as much as possible. Now that we're running about 40 servers, maintenance is becoming a real pain in the patootie. Getting our users to allow us to take down their server so we can change /usr disks is really hard. More and more our users are wanting full 7X24 availability. Our current offering is 1500 cylinders for /, /opt, /bin, /var, etc 3338 cylinders for /usr, read-only shared. swap in v-disk A separate disk with much as they need for /home A read-only disk with the Oracle code on it and a separate LVM volume for Oracle databases, if they want oracle. We are considering changing our offering when SLES9 comes out. The current proposal is to combine the / and /usr disks into one single minidisk of about 5000 cylinders, being half of a 3390-9. Everything read-write. Then, for service, we can just use ssh to send some commands to the server, link an NFS disk in with all the rpm's and just load the rpms directly on to the server. We can even send ssh commands to recycle various daemons. The only thing we'd have to bring the server all the way down for would be to bring in a new kernel. What we give up to do this is disk space. Each server goes from using 1500 cylinders to 5000 cylinders. However, we're beginning to think that disk is cheaper than labor, especially when it comes to dozens of servers to maintain. YMMV. Give it some thought. What does your management want to spend its money on? Disk arrays or headcount? Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick any two. (David Gerrold, A Matter for Men) An Optimist is just a pessimist with no job experience. - Scott Adams Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D. Boeing Enterprise Servers 425-865-5940 -- From: David Boyes Reply To: Linux on 390 Port Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2004 7:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? At least a dozen of our customers do. CA obviously does (see Bill's paper). It's proven to be a pretty good choice when you need a lot of fairly similar machines that don't change configuration too often. How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? It depends a lot on how well-behaved your applications are in terms of keeping all their files together. A lot of ISVs violate Mother's Second Rule (Thou Shalt Not Mix Your Code and System Code), which makes it more a maintenance issue than a disk space issue. IF your application is well-behaved enough to keep all it's pieces together, then it makes a fair amount of difference. Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? No, because in the case of Oracle and a lot of the ISV software you mentioned, the application wants to dump code outside the directory that holds the main binaries. You also need to have write access to the RPM catalog and some other stuff (something I consider to be a design flaw in RPM -- no provision for concatenated user and system software catalogs). /home is difficult because of the multi-system caching problem -- virtal machines are really separate systems, and each does separate caches of R/W data that are completely ignorant of each other. Without something like AFS or GFS to coordinate writes, you get bad corruption problems. Best solution there is to use NFS or one of the more sophisticated filesystems mentioned previously to handle /home. Wouldn't this accomplish the same thing? What would be the best way to go about this? See above. You're somewhat mixing up two problems: shared resources and operational maintenance. The basevol/guestvol concept is attempting to handle the operational maintenance problem (ie, how do you distribute fixes and do configuration control). Sharing disks takes it into configuration management (how do I share binaries, but deal with the fact that the applications expect stuff to appear in places outside the directory holding the binaries). Best is a hard thing to define. What I'd suggest is: 1) Use the
PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning]
We're running into an unnecessary ugliness in zSeries with respect to booting and configuration. We need the PARM parm. There's a concept of a boot command-line. This is good. Often, the boot command-line can be overridden at boot time. This is VERY good. But support for override is slipping away from zSeries Linux. On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 10:37, Arty Ecock wrote: Something in initrd wants that disk R/W. Adam suggested changing the parmline to something like DASD=150(ro), ... but once that is done, you lose the ability to update the basevol root disk (or a copy of it). On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Adam Thornton wrote: Use multiple parmlines. There's the older Lucius Leland PARM LINE stuff, which I really like, which lets you do it very flexibly from CMS, and there's also actual official multiboot support in newer s390-tools. We really need proper support for parm handling. For those who do not know, VM has long time supported a PARM parm on the IPL command which effects a 64-byte parm string whether booting from device or from named saved system (NSS). SAN support breaks it. So when you're booting Linux on z/VM, you can append parameters, as long as you're on traditional disk or booting from NSS. ipl mylinux parm root=/dev/other init=/sbin/blahblah -or- ipl 2345 clear parm root=/dev/another mem=1024m -or- ipl 1AE clear parm dasd=1AC-1AF root=/dev/dasdc1 You get the idea. 64 bytes is small, but quite sufficient for most overrides. LOADPARM is another thing, and is seen in the hardware, so you z/OS folks are more familiar with that one. I don't like LOADPARM. At only 8 bytes, it doesn't foster entry of arbitrary boot parm text. The above examples do not fit into LOARPARM space. Any alternate boot parameters must be pre-set and stamped into a collection. SAN is good. But the z/VM support for SAN makes PARM an illegal option if the IPL device is SAN. Why is this? But while SAN support breaks ye olde PARM parm, it supplies a new thing. IBM calls it SCPDATA, but it looks like an arbitrar buffer which gets passed to the boot loader. I can't find mention of this outside of IBM (and SHARE) documentation, so I don't know if it is architected outside of zSeries. But it's there. IPL from SAN should pack a PARM string into SCPDATA space, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. There's a lot of value in managed systems having boot-time overrides containing arbitrary details. SUMMARY When booting Linux, there is the concept of a boot parameter line. We all know and love this as the parmfile used by ZIPL, LILO, GRUB. In many situations, some stage of the bootstrap will allow overrides to what is stamped on disk. THIS IS A GOOD THING. One such override is Leland's vmparm patch for 2.4.19. -- R; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
And I thought I was silly for getting a TRS-80 model III working from the parts of 2 or three dead ones. David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] e.net To Sent by: Linux on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 390 Port cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU Subject Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions 07/08/2004 02:37 ) PM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU The keyboard of the estimable Rich Smrcina at some point emitted: It looks like there are some on eBay. So there were. Even more fascinating, a bunch of 2731s WITH the System/370 console controller attachment cable. And a STOP/RUN switch box -- looks like a bunch of System/370 surplus consoles. Wonder where they've been stored. $25 each. Cheap at twice the price. I'm now a happy owner of a Selectric II. Thanks, Rich. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
Less than $1500. Is it worth it? It's not the money. It's your time. If it SAVES TIME, then do it. If it TAKES MORE TIME, don't. For me, sharing DASD saves time. Not always, but often. But to do it, I have to consciously keep things in a mold where /usr or /opt (or whatever) is static and all players know it's static. The biggest problem is poorly packaged packages and package manager programs which are cluless about sharing. Dave mentioned one or two poorly packaged packages. Regarding the package managers, they should have the smarts to check, Oh! That file is already there, AND IT'S THE SAME, so I'll silently ignore the fact that I cannot re-write it.. -- R; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning]
It would be nice if an installation could use both LOADPARM and PARM. Use LOADPARM to select from previously prepared configurations (PROD, TEST, RESCUE, INIT-1, etc), and use PARM to override individual settings within that configuration. /Thomas Kern /301-903-2211 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Troth Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 16:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning] ...snipped... We really need proper support for parm handling. For those who do not know, VM has long time supported a PARM parm on the IPL command which effects a 64-byte parm string whether booting from device or from named saved system (NSS). SAN support breaks it. So when you're booting Linux on z/VM, you can append parameters, as long as you're on traditional disk or booting from NSS. ...snipped... LOADPARM is another thing, and is seen in the hardware, so you z/OS folks are more familiar with that one. I don't like LOADPARM. At only 8 bytes, it doesn't foster entry of arbitrary boot parm text. The above examples do not fit into LOARPARM space. Any alternate boot parameters must be pre-set and stamped into a collection. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: APL and the like (and some WAY off topic typewriter questions ....)
And I thought I was silly for getting a TRS-80 model III working from the parts of 2 or three dead ones. I'll frighten you even further: This weekend, NASA JSC in Houston is finally auctioning off their System/360 reserve parts depot from the Apollo shots (they need somewhere to put the 3090-400E parts...8-)). $20K would get me enough parts to build THREE entire 360/67 CPUs and all the associated controllers, peripherals *and* test equipment *from the bolts up*. I'd just have to figure out where to store them while I get the floor space to assemble them. Oh, to be independently wealthy...8-( -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning]
*** Reply to note of Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:01:24 -0500 (EST/CDT) *** by [EMAIL PROTECTED] The latest issue of The Journal of Research and Dev. has an article on SCSI IPL (real and VM): http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/483/banzhaf.pdf It would be nice if you could use SET LOADDEV on regular IPL disks. Richard Troth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We're running into an unnecessary ugliness in zSeries with respect to booting and configuration. We need the PARM parm. There's a concept of a boot command-line. This is good. Often, the boot command-line can be overridden at boot time. This is VERY good. But support for override is slipping away from zSeries Linux. On Thu, 2004-07-08 at 10:37, Arty Ecock wrote: Something in initrd wants that disk R/W. Adam suggested changing the parmline to something like DASD=150(ro), ... but once that is done, you lose the ability to update the basevol root disk (or a copy of it). On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Adam Thornton wrote: Use multiple parmlines. There's the older Lucius Leland PARM LINE stuff, which I really like, which lets you do it very flexibly from CMS, and there's also actual official multiboot support in newer s390-tools. We really need proper support for parm handling. For those who do not know, VM has long time supported a PARM parm on the IPL command which effects a 64-byte parm string whether booting from device or from named saved system (NSS). SAN support breaks it. So when you're booting Linux on z/VM, you can append parameters, as long as you're on traditional disk or booting from NSS. ipl mylinux parm root=/dev/other init=/sbin/blahblah -or- ipl 2345 clear parm root=/dev/another mem=1024m -or- ipl 1AE clear parm dasd=1AC-1AF root=/dev/dasdc1 You get the idea. 64 bytes is small, but quite sufficient for most overrides. LOADPARM is another thing, and is seen in the hardware, so you z/OS folks are more familiar with that one. I don't like LOADPARM. At only 8 bytes, it doesn't foster entry of arbitrary boot parm text. The above examples do not fit into LOARPARM space. Any alternate boot parameters must be pre-set and stamped into a collection. SAN is good. But the z/VM support for SAN makes PARM an illegal option if the IPL device is SAN. Why is this? But while SAN support breaks ye olde PARM parm, it supplies a new thing. IBM calls it SCPDATA, but it looks like an arbitrar buffer which gets passed to the boot loader. I can't find mention of this outside of IBM (and SHARE) documentation, so I don't know if it is architected outside of zSeries. But it's there. IPL from SAN should pack a PARM string into SCPDATA space, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. There's a lot of value in managed systems having boot-time overrides containing arbitrary details. SUMMARY When booting Linux, there is the concept of a boot parameter line. We all know and love this as the parmfile used by ZIPL, LILO, GRUB. In many situations, some stage of the bootstrap will allow overrides to what is stamped on disk. THIS IS A GOOD THING. One such override is Leland's vmparm patch for 2.4.19. -- R; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
This is a very good point and am takeing this into consideration. What you have lined up for SLES9 seems more logical with the Packageing and patches and updates and what not that have to be done. Where i am in an environment that likes to keep those patches and what not up to date, i can't have the headache everyone else is saying happens when you do file shareing your package management becomes well null and void basically. That just does not work for me. I needs something more stable than that. -Cameron -Original Message- From: Wolfe, Gordon W [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up A lot of people do it this way. I gave a paper on it at SHARE. You can see a copy at http://linuxvm.org/present/SHARE101/S9343GWa.pdf It covers a wide gamut of the problems of managing multiple Linux servers running under VM. Lately, however, we've been beginning to have second thoughts. When we started the scheme detailed in the presentation, we thought a whole 3390-3 was a lot of dasd and were trying to save as much as possible. Now that we're running about 40 servers, maintenance is becoming a real pain in the patootie. Getting our users to allow us to take down their server so we can change /usr disks is really hard. More and more our users are wanting full 7X24 availability. Our current offering is 1500 cylinders for /, /opt, /bin, /var, etc 3338 cylinders for /usr, read-only shared. swap in v-disk A separate disk with much as they need for /home A read-only disk with the Oracle code on it and a separate LVM volume for Oracle databases, if they want oracle. We are considering changing our offering when SLES9 comes out. The current proposal is to combine the / and /usr disks into one single minidisk of about 5000 cylinders, being half of a 3390-9. Everything read-write. Then, for service, we can just use ssh to send some commands to the server, link an NFS disk in with all the rpm's and just load the rpms directly on to the server. We can even send ssh commands to recycle various daemons. The only thing we'd have to bring the server all the way down for would be to bring in a new kernel. What we give up to do this is disk space. Each server goes from using 1500 cylinders to 5000 cylinders. However, we're beginning to think that disk is cheaper than labor, especially when it comes to dozens of servers to maintain. YMMV. Give it some thought. What does your management want to spend its money on? Disk arrays or headcount? Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick any two. (David Gerrold, A Matter for Men) An Optimist is just a pessimist with no job experience. - Scott Adams Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D. Boeing Enterprise Servers 425-865-5940 -- From: David Boyes Reply To: Linux on 390 Port Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2004 7:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? At least a dozen of our customers do. CA obviously does (see Bill's paper). It's proven to be a pretty good choice when you need a lot of fairly similar machines that don't change configuration too often. How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? It depends a lot on how well-behaved your applications are in terms of keeping all their files together. A lot of ISVs violate Mother's Second Rule (Thou Shalt Not Mix Your Code and System Code), which makes it more a maintenance issue than a disk space issue. IF your application is well-behaved enough to keep all it's pieces together, then it makes a fair amount of difference. Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? No, because in the case of Oracle and a lot of the ISV software you mentioned, the application wants to dump code outside the directory that holds the main binaries. You also need to have write access to the RPM catalog and some other stuff (something I consider to be a design flaw in RPM -- no provision for concatenated user and system software catalogs). /home is difficult because of the multi-system caching problem -- virtal machines are really separate systems, and each does separate caches of R/W data that are completely ignorant of each other. Without something like AFS or GFS to coordinate writes, you get bad corruption problems. Best solution there is to use NFS or one of the more
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
Hello from Gregg C Levine So far you all have good ideas. However about that quote you chose Gordon, yes David did write it for his novel, as you've noted, except it was Solomon Short who said the actual quote. (And he's been suggesting that Solomon is a real person no less!) --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wolfe, Gordon W Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Linux under VM and Cloning How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up A lot of people do it this way. I gave a paper on it at SHARE. You can see a copy at http://linuxvm.org/present/SHARE101/S9343GWa.pdf It covers a wide gamut of the problems of managing multiple Linux servers running under VM. Lately, however, we've been beginning to have second thoughts. When we started the scheme detailed in the presentation, we thought a whole 3390-3 was a lot of dasd and were trying to save as much as possible. Now that we're running about 40 servers, maintenance is becoming a real pain in the patootie. Getting our users to allow us to take down their server so we can change /usr disks is really hard. More and more our users are wanting full 7X24 availability. Our current offering is 1500 cylinders for /, /opt, /bin, /var, etc 3338 cylinders for /usr, read-only shared. swap in v-disk A separate disk with much as they need for /home A read-only disk with the Oracle code on it and a separate LVM volume for Oracle databases, if they want oracle. We are considering changing our offering when SLES9 comes out. The current proposal is to combine the / and /usr disks into one single minidisk of about 5000 cylinders, being half of a 3390-9. Everything read-write. Then, for service, we can just use ssh to send some commands to the server, link an NFS disk in with all the rpm's and just load the rpms directly on to the server. We can even send ssh commands to recycle various daemons. The only thing we'd have to bring the server all the way down for would be to bring in a new kernel. What we give up to do this is disk space. Each server goes from using 1500 cylinders to 5000 cylinders. However, we're beginning to think that disk is cheaper than labor, especially when it comes to dozens of servers to maintain. YMMV. Give it some thought. What does your management want to spend its money on? Disk arrays or headcount? Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick any two. (David Gerrold, A Matter for Men) An Optimist is just a pessimist with no job experience. - Scott Adams Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D. Boeing Enterprise Servers 425-865-5940 -- From: David Boyes Reply To: Linux on 390 Port Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2004 7:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? At least a dozen of our customers do. CA obviously does (see Bill's paper). It's proven to be a pretty good choice when you need a lot of fairly similar machines that don't change configuration too often. How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? It depends a lot on how well-behaved your applications are in terms of keeping all their files together. A lot of ISVs violate Mother's Second Rule (Thou Shalt Not Mix Your Code and System Code), which makes it more a maintenance issue than a disk space issue. IF your application is well-behaved enough to keep all it's pieces together, then it makes a fair amount of difference. Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? No, because in the case of Oracle and a lot of the ISV software you mentioned, the application wants to dump code outside the directory that holds the main binaries. You also need to have write access to the RPM catalog and some other stuff (something I consider to be a design flaw in RPM -- no provision for concatenated user and system software catalogs). /home is difficult because of the multi-system caching problem -- virtal machines are really separate systems, and each does separate caches of R/W data that are completely ignorant of each other. Without something like AFS or GFS to coordinate writes, you get bad corruption
Re: Linux under VM and Cloning
Gregg- I've often wondered if Solomon Short was a real person or just a character David G. made up. An Optimist is just a pessimist with no job experience. - Scott Adams Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D. Boeing Enterprise Servers 425-865-5940 -- From: Gregg C Levine Reply To: Linux on 390 Port Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2004 1:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning Hello from Gregg C Levine So far you all have good ideas. However about that quote you chose Gordon, yes David did write it for his novel, as you've noted, except it was Solomon Short who said the actual quote. (And he's been suggesting that Solomon is a real person no less!) --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wolfe, Gordon W Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Linux under VM and Cloning How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up A lot of people do it this way. I gave a paper on it at SHARE. You can see a copy at http://linuxvm.org/present/SHARE101/S9343GWa.pdf It covers a wide gamut of the problems of managing multiple Linux servers running under VM. Lately, however, we've been beginning to have second thoughts. When we started the scheme detailed in the presentation, we thought a whole 3390-3 was a lot of dasd and were trying to save as much as possible. Now that we're running about 40 servers, maintenance is becoming a real pain in the patootie. Getting our users to allow us to take down their server so we can change /usr disks is really hard. More and more our users are wanting full 7X24 availability. Our current offering is 1500 cylinders for /, /opt, /bin, /var, etc 3338 cylinders for /usr, read-only shared. swap in v-disk A separate disk with much as they need for /home A read-only disk with the Oracle code on it and a separate LVM volume for Oracle databases, if they want oracle. We are considering changing our offering when SLES9 comes out. The current proposal is to combine the / and /usr disks into one single minidisk of about 5000 cylinders, being half of a 3390-9. Everything read-write. Then, for service, we can just use ssh to send some commands to the server, link an NFS disk in with all the rpm's and just load the rpms directly on to the server. We can even send ssh commands to recycle various daemons. The only thing we'd have to bring the server all the way down for would be to bring in a new kernel. What we give up to do this is disk space. Each server goes from using 1500 cylinders to 5000 cylinders. However, we're beginning to think that disk is cheaper than labor, especially when it comes to dozens of servers to maintain. YMMV. Give it some thought. What does your management want to spend its money on? Disk arrays or headcount? Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick any two. (David Gerrold, A Matter for Men) An Optimist is just a pessimist with no job experience. - Scott Adams Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D. Boeing Enterprise Servers 425-865-5940 -- From: David Boyes Reply To: Linux on 390 Port Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2004 7:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux under VM and Cloning We are going with a lot of Linux Guests under VM. Close to 20 per IFL and are wondering about the experiences with the basevol/guestvol scenario. How many People accually use this scenario? At least a dozen of our customers do. CA obviously does (see Bill's paper). It's proven to be a pretty good choice when you need a lot of fairly similar machines that don't change configuration too often. How much DASD does this really save you? Is it worth the time and effort it takes to set this up? It depends a lot on how well-behaved your applications are in terms of keeping all their files together. A lot of ISVs violate Mother's Second Rule (Thou Shalt Not Mix Your Code and System Code), which makes it more a maintenance issue than a disk space issue. IF your application is well-behaved enough to keep all it's pieces together, then it makes a fair amount of difference. Could you just setup Links to specific disks in VM for a Guest like if you just wanted to share the binaries for say Oracle, or the /usr directory or /home directory? No, because in the case of Oracle and a lot of the ISV software you mentioned, the application
Re: PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning]
The latest issue of The Journal of Research and Dev. has an article on SCSI IPL (real and VM): http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/483/banzhaf.pdf Excellent article. Most complete description of SCSI IPL I have yet seen. The example of OS specific load parameters all the more strongly implies that SCPDATA should be used to carry PARM string. So what is lacking in the z/VM environment is a connection between two commands. -- R; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: PARM and such [was: Linux under VM and Cloning]
On Thursday, 07/08/2004 at 04:42 EST, Richard Troth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/483/banzhaf.pdf Excellent article. Most complete description of SCSI IPL I have yet seen. The example of OS specific load parameters all the more strongly implies that SCPDATA should be used to carry PARM string. So what is lacking in the z/VM environment is a connection between two commands. It seems that Linux knows whether it's booting from SCSI or ECKD. In the former case, it can use the SCPDATA (which is up to 128 EBCDIC characters that have been UTF-8 encoded by CP or LPAR), which Linux does. In the latter case, Linux can use PARMs (with the patch). I don't see the imperative to change CP further. What problem is solved that cannot be solved more simply in Linux? Alan Altmark Sr. Software Engineer IBM z/VM Development -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
Darn, I lost the post with the original link to the PL/I download, and now I can't find it. Can somebody help me out? I love PL/I, it's the first language I learned, back in 1975, and it's still my first choice when it's available. (Well, actually I learned the TI-59 Calculator's language even earlier, but I'm not sure it counts! (It was a fun little machine though!)) Cheers Ron Davis Security and Mainframe Support Dept of Veterans' Affairs -Original Message- From: Bernd Oppolzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux APL is still heavily used by insurance companies to calculate their non-standard insurances for large companies, where the normal routines won't work due to special conditions etc. APL development is very fast compared to other (compiled) languages. I don't do it myself, but I am told so by lots of colleagues. Regards Bernd Am Mit, 07 Jul 2004 schrieben Sie: Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine I know, I could feel the stirring all the way here.BG Seriously though, what's wrong with APL? It's got a good history behind it, a good track record behind it. Granted it has a less then stellar acceptance record, and its syntax is strange, and the only use that I can remember was in the construction of the S/360, and S/370 families. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 IMPORTANT: Notice to be read with this E-mail 1. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. 2. This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential information for the use of the intended recipient. 3. If you are not the intended recipient, please: contact the sender by return e-mail, to notify the misdirection; do not copy, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on this e-mail; and delete and destroy all copies of this e-mail. 4. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and are not a statement of Australian Government policy unless otherwise stated. 5. Any electronic address published in this message is not to be taken as a conspicuous publication of that electronic address. The Department of Veterans' Affairs does not consent to the receipt of commercial electronic messages as that term is defined in the Spam Act 2003. 6. If you do not wish to receive further emails of this type from the Department of Veterans' Affairs, please forward your reply to this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'Unsubscribe' in the subject line. 7. Finally, please do not remove this notice, so that any other readers are aware of these restrictions. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
http://pl1gcc.sourceforge.net/ Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Davis, Ron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux Darn, I lost the post with the original link to the PL/I download, and now I can't find it. Can somebody help me out? -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux
Thanks! Much appreciated. Ron Davis Security and Mainframe Support Dept of Veterans' Affairs -Original Message- From: Post, Mark K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux http://pl1gcc.sourceforge.net/ Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Davis, Ron Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Progress on PL/1 for Linux Darn, I lost the post with the original link to the PL/I download, and now I can't find it. Can somebody help me out? -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- * Scanned by Anti-Spam Sheriff * IMPORTANT: Notice to be read with this E-mail 1. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. 2. This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential information for the use of the intended recipient. 3. If you are not the intended recipient, please: contact the sender by return e-mail, to notify the misdirection; do not copy, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on this e-mail; and delete and destroy all copies of this e-mail. 4. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and are not a statement of Australian Government policy unless otherwise stated. 5. Any electronic address published in this message is not to be taken as a conspicuous publication of that electronic address. The Department of Veterans' Affairs does not consent to the receipt of commercial electronic messages as that term is defined in the Spam Act 2003. 6. If you do not wish to receive further emails of this type from the Department of Veterans' Affairs, please forward your reply to this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'Unsubscribe' in the subject line. 7. Finally, please do not remove this notice, so that any other readers are aware of these restrictions. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
