Re: New York WTC

[stayler]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:04:28 -0400, Keith Antoine wrote:

>
>I just could not resist that one, I never usually get picky as I am 
>just as vulnerable, buty seeing itb was you!! BTW the letter has gone 
>to Carrara

Thanks  Skippy!

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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 04:22, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

| And if you go to Riyadh today, it is the worst of Western urban
| sprawl, fast food, junk strip malls and cars. Of course, it has
| been their decision to import this aspect of the West, but many a
| Saudi look with sorrow at what their country has become. When I
| fist went to the Kingdom, I expected more in the way of exotica:
| Arab influenced architecture, local food, local customs. I found a
| major street called 'Pepsi Road' because the bottling plant is
| there. And more fast food per square foot than I ever thought was
| possible. And MTV on the TV. And far too much poorly built and
| maintained '70s western-style concrete block buildings. This is
| what they think American culture is. It is, sadly, what we export
| so well. It is not us. We are much more. But to these countries,
| this is their experience. If I had a culture and it was replaced
| with this, I would be upset. Too bad they don't understand that the
| choice was theirs all along. But they don't want to take the blame
| for the situation. So, we are called 'cultural imperialists'. And
| the royal family our co-conspirators.

yeah. not so bad in kuwait city, but it was amazing in a truly 
horrible sort of way that the in-flight movie i *always* drew was 
tennage mutant ninja turtles 3 dubbed in arabic. and egyptian soap 
operas. frankly, i would far rather have seen their equivalent of our 
old fess parker as davy crockett. a little dunes-n-robes stuff.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 12:38, you scribed:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:35:34 -0400, Keith Antoine wrote:
> >The word is invoke and netiquette and I am not playing by your rules
> >'so there'..
>
> Hey Keith...  Sorry.  Couldn't see how bad my typing was when I did
> that  Something in my eyes.

I just could not resist that one, I never usually get picky as I am 
just as vulnerable, buty seeing itb was you!! BTW the letter has gone 
to Carrara

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Re: New York WTC

[stayler]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:35:34 -0400, Keith Antoine wrote:

>The word is invoke and netiquette and I am not playing by your rules 
>'so there'..

Hey Keith...  Sorry.  Couldn't see how bad my typing was when I did
that  Something in my eyes.

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Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

On Monday 17 September 2001 12:46, you scribed:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:49:53 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >It seems like Hitler once thought like this.
>
> Ok,
>
> I hearby envoke the Neticate rule that a thread be immediately
> terminated upon mention of the H word
>
> stayler

The word is invoke and netiquette and I am not playing by your rules 
'so there'..

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Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:52, you scribed:
> I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this
> thread.
>
> Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal?  It is
> interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one
> of his books, to hear his comments.

I had read all his books and assumed that many people would have seen 
the parallel. I thought about and told my wife about his writing this 
where he had a terrorist plane dive into the Capitol.

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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:16:31 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On Monday 17 September 2001 11:25, burns wrote:
| 
| | And Sadam is still in power, refuses to adopt a peaceful posture
| | toward his neighbours and is still a significant threat.
| 
| wait a few days.
| 
| | Many people in Iran don't like that regime either. None of these
| | countries are open democracies as we are used to in the west... but
| | then they are different cultures. The point is that there is
| | significant dissent everywhere in that region, with the possible
| | exception of Jordan.
| 
| first, the situation in iran is a lot more complicated than can be 
| easily summarized (which is true of saudia, egypt, and jordan, among 
| others, as well). the irani president, mohammed khatami, is actually 
| pretty reasonable by the standards we apply to the region. he 
| actually conceives of a good relationship with the west. the 
| theocracy there, the mullahs, are as crazed in the shiite direction 
| as the taliban are sunna. in the instant case, and for *our* 
| immediate purposes, this doesn't much matter -- iran was universally 
| troubled by the death of ahmad shah masood last week, and refuses to 
| recognize the taliban. they of course also hate saddam's regime. but 
| there is not actually much dissent in iran, though useful fallout of 
| all that is about to transpire could be the, um, isolation of much of 
| the theocracy in iran.
| 
| meanwhile, there *is* tremendous dissent and trouble elsewhere, in 
| places you would not necessarily expect. both jordan and kuwait have 
| significant palestinian problems. the natives have contempt for them 
| (actually, in arab countries there is pretty vigorous contempt for 
| pretty much everybody who is not an arab), and could give a toot 
| about a palestinian homeland but for the fact that it would then 
| allow them to kick the palestinians out of their own respective 
| countries. (indeed, arafat is himself handcuffed a little bit, 
| because any agreement in which israelis don't line up to be shot 
| cannot be accepted by arafat, because arafat's people would then 
| shoot him.) kuwait has withdrawn tremendously from its 
| westernization; i was in the office of a member of the royal family 
| once and listened to him bitch, as we shared very good scotch, about 
| the inability to get a drink on kuwait airways, "but if you bring 
| your own, they don't say anything and will bring you ice." (well, if 
| you're a member of the royal family, maybe, but not me; though i was 
| chastised for failing to bring in a case of something good when i 
| arrived.) this is no longer the case. their big shakeup last year 
| changed all that. this was not due directly to internal pressure, but 
| instead complaints from other countries who argued that the kuwaitis 
| were being a little *too* flamboyant.
| 
| saudia has a problem, because the religious cuckoos have taken hold, 
| and if things continue as they are heading we can pretty much expect 
| the saudi royal family to move permanently to the beverly hills 
| hotel, which they own. you have not lived until you've seen a truly 
| wealthy desert saudi. they come to town in armored mercedes, in 
| convoys of them, the big cheese surrounded by his robed, heavily 
| armed band, ululating when they enter or leave buildings, driving 
| around the block a few times honking, and occasionally firing into 
| the air. (the closest we have to this is rap "musicians" and their 
| entourages.) i was saved from a very bad time once when i got yanked 
| by a friend off a hotel escalator when such a group was coming 
| through -- i'd nearly bumped into a big guy, and i guarantee you i 
| did not know the protocol of apology if i had. anyway, these guys 
| tend to give support to the likes of bin laden, for all sorts of 
| reasons.
| 
| egypt has a big problem, and has for a long time. we can lay some of 
| this to the soviet influence, but whatever its genesis, mubarak is 
| kind of screwed. sadat was a far stronger leader, and look what 
| happened to him. (i've forgotten huge quantities of nasser stuff, and 
| while some of it is pertinent, not enough to let its lack kill the 
| point.) you'll note that a lot of the bad guys this time round 
| carried egyptian passports. this is not a matter of convenience, and 
| they were not phony. these were egyptians, drawn from the same crowd 
| that shot up the tourists a few years ago.
| 
| a little surprise, to me, was the fact that some of the bad guys 
| carried passports from the emirates. uae has a lot of money and has 
| in some respects been the most westernized of the arab countries. i'm 
| assured by friends, though, that there has been a growing number of 
| islamonsters there, too -- i guess their equivalent of our tree 
| huggers.
| 
| lebanon -- or, to the brits, the lebanon -- is just a mess, because 
| its terrorist organizations are multifaceted, not unlike the irish 
| republican army, which

Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:17:59 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So maybe all Europeans are not 'cheese-eaters' or live on a diet of
crepes and fruit. Sorry. I had to...

| score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted 
| open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who 
| committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email 
| addresses. story is here:

-- 
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:52:07 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

| 
| I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this thread.
| 
| Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal?  It is
| interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one of his
| books, to hear his comments.

Except the Tom Clancey event wiped out the government, who were all in the
Capitol at the State of the Union address, where the plane (pilot only)
crashed. If you read subsequent books (I have lots of long flights), the
act helped things as much of the Washington rot was eliminated. The new
president is one of Tom's no-nonsense heros who 'gets things done', is not a
politician, and is generally well liked for his directness. Prior to 
September 11th, one might actually have considered the action a blessing
in disguise. At least that is how it comes across in Tom's books.


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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

600 pound gorilla politics making headway these days?

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:55:15 -0500
Ronnie Gauthier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| I see that the basic intent of my statement is well understood though.
| 
| On Monday 17 September 2001 10:45, Olle Viksten wrote:
| > måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote:
| > > Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you
| > > have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
| >
| > FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And
| > we don't have crepes we have pannkakor.
| >
| > Olle Viksten
| > ___
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| -- 
| Ronnie
| ==
| Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
| it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:45:00 +0200
Olle Viksten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote:
| > Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have
| > been away from meat and potatoes too long.
| 
| FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we 
| don't have crepes we have pannkakor.

I was going to say that.

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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

The IMF is not going to hold the meeting and the protest has already been 
canceled.

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 00:31, dep wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 12:06, burns wrote:
> || A thinly disguised front for what otherwise would be the The
> |
> | Coomunist League of America, Anarchists R Us, and the National
> | Front for the Liberation & Promotion of Almost Everyone that
> | Doesn't Earn a Paycheck Through Honest Work.
>
> damn straight. don't be surprised if the 29 september rally gets
> canceled. they're aware that there will be tens of thousands of
> people there to "greet" them.

-- 
Ronnie
==
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it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 12:06, burns wrote:

|| A thinly disguised front for what otherwise would be the The
| Coomunist League of America, Anarchists R Us, and the National
| Front for the Liberation & Promotion of Almost Everyone that
| Doesn't Earn a Paycheck Through Honest Work.

damn straight. don't be surprised if the 29 september rally gets 
canceled. they're aware that there will be tens of thousands of 
people there to "greet" them.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:25, burns wrote:

| And Sadam is still in power, refuses to adopt a peaceful posture
| toward his neighbours and is still a significant threat.

wait a few days.

| Many people in Iran don't like that regime either. None of these
| countries are open democracies as we are used to in the west... but
| then they are different cultures. The point is that there is
| significant dissent everywhere in that region, with the possible
| exception of Jordan.

first, the situation in iran is a lot more complicated than can be 
easily summarized (which is true of saudia, egypt, and jordan, among 
others, as well). the irani president, mohammed khatami, is actually 
pretty reasonable by the standards we apply to the region. he 
actually conceives of a good relationship with the west. the 
theocracy there, the mullahs, are as crazed in the shiite direction 
as the taliban are sunna. in the instant case, and for *our* 
immediate purposes, this doesn't much matter -- iran was universally 
troubled by the death of ahmad shah masood last week, and refuses to 
recognize the taliban. they of course also hate saddam's regime. but 
there is not actually much dissent in iran, though useful fallout of 
all that is about to transpire could be the, um, isolation of much of 
the theocracy in iran.

meanwhile, there *is* tremendous dissent and trouble elsewhere, in 
places you would not necessarily expect. both jordan and kuwait have 
significant palestinian problems. the natives have contempt for them 
(actually, in arab countries there is pretty vigorous contempt for 
pretty much everybody who is not an arab), and could give a toot 
about a palestinian homeland but for the fact that it would then 
allow them to kick the palestinians out of their own respective 
countries. (indeed, arafat is himself handcuffed a little bit, 
because any agreement in which israelis don't line up to be shot 
cannot be accepted by arafat, because arafat's people would then 
shoot him.) kuwait has withdrawn tremendously from its 
westernization; i was in the office of a member of the royal family 
once and listened to him bitch, as we shared very good scotch, about 
the inability to get a drink on kuwait airways, "but if you bring 
your own, they don't say anything and will bring you ice." (well, if 
you're a member of the royal family, maybe, but not me; though i was 
chastised for failing to bring in a case of something good when i 
arrived.) this is no longer the case. their big shakeup last year 
changed all that. this was not due directly to internal pressure, but 
instead complaints from other countries who argued that the kuwaitis 
were being a little *too* flamboyant.

saudia has a problem, because the religious cuckoos have taken hold, 
and if things continue as they are heading we can pretty much expect 
the saudi royal family to move permanently to the beverly hills 
hotel, which they own. you have not lived until you've seen a truly 
wealthy desert saudi. they come to town in armored mercedes, in 
convoys of them, the big cheese surrounded by his robed, heavily 
armed band, ululating when they enter or leave buildings, driving 
around the block a few times honking, and occasionally firing into 
the air. (the closest we have to this is rap "musicians" and their 
entourages.) i was saved from a very bad time once when i got yanked 
by a friend off a hotel escalator when such a group was coming 
through -- i'd nearly bumped into a big guy, and i guarantee you i 
did not know the protocol of apology if i had. anyway, these guys 
tend to give support to the likes of bin laden, for all sorts of 
reasons.

egypt has a big problem, and has for a long time. we can lay some of 
this to the soviet influence, but whatever its genesis, mubarak is 
kind of screwed. sadat was a far stronger leader, and look what 
happened to him. (i've forgotten huge quantities of nasser stuff, and 
while some of it is pertinent, not enough to let its lack kill the 
point.) you'll note that a lot of the bad guys this time round 
carried egyptian passports. this is not a matter of convenience, and 
they were not phony. these were egyptians, drawn from the same crowd 
that shot up the tourists a few years ago.

a little surprise, to me, was the fact that some of the bad guys 
carried passports from the emirates. uae has a lot of money and has 
in some respects been the most westernized of the arab countries. i'm 
assured by friends, though, that there has been a growing number of 
islamonsters there, too -- i guess their equivalent of our tree 
huggers.

lebanon -- or, to the brits, the lebanon -- is just a mess, because 
its terrorist organizations are multifaceted, not unlike the irish 
republican army, which has its purportedly respectable side. i was 
amused by bug-eyed walid jumblatt, who last week said that the 
attacks in the u.s. were internal affairs, carried out by the 
well-known cia agent usama bin laden. the place is cut up like a

Re: New York WTC

[burns]

On September 17, 2001 11:56 am, dep wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit,
> | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
>
> unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good
> guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here:
>
> http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html

A thinly disguised front for what otherwise would be the The Coomunist League 
of America, Anarchists R Us, and the National Front for the Liberation & 
Promotion of Almost Everyone that Doesn't Earn a Paycheck Through Honest Work.


-- 
burns
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Re: New York WTC

[burns]

On September 17, 2001 11:17 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> I did not disagree with any of that. Bin Laden is an opportunist using
> what he defines as religion as a framework for taking control. He may even
> believe what he preaches. I think he does. And if we are going to deal
> with him and 'the base' we should understand this and assume that they
> really believe it. Otherwise we will be shooting in the dark. And perhaps
> upset others to no end.
>

It's interesting to read the life of the prophet Mohammed and the bio of bin 
Laden in juxtaposition. There are many parallels that allow for a very 
interesting comparative analysis. Mohammed was, a pious warrior lay-cleric 
whose focus was on establishing a new world orde based upon fundamental 
Islamic values.  

Everything I have read indicates that bin Laden is emulating, very closely, 
the life of Mohammed, including leading of the 'Armies of Islam' against  an 
'evil empire.' In short, he fancies himself to be a latter day prophet... the 
Modern Mohammed (although with somewhat fewer scruples and a diminished sense 
of mercy or decency).
-- 
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Re: New York WTC

[burns]

On September 17, 2001 11:38 am, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> Our main concesion to Pakistan is the layoff of $30B in debt they owe us.
>
<139 lines of quotes snipped>

Please trim your posts... netiquette 101

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Re: New York WTC

[burns]

On September 17, 2001 08:09 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
>
>   - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
> KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
> have not left.
>

And Sadam is still in power, refuses to adopt a peaceful posture toward his 
neighbours and is still a significant threat. If Kuwait or Saudia Arabia 
asked the US to leave, they would as they did in the Philippines.

>   - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
> many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
> Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
> the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
> the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.
>

Many people in Iran don't like that regime either. None of these countries 
are open democracies as we are used to in the west... but then they are 
different cultures. The point is that there is significant dissent everywhere 
in that region, with the possible exception of Jordan.

>   - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
> As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
> that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
> or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
> the price of attacks at home?
>
> In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just
> stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over
> oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started
> by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible.
>

So, your answer to murder is to stay out of the murderers sight and not do 
anything to attract their attention? A bit simplistic perhaps, but you normal 
people don't go out and muder 5,000 people becuase you disagree with their 
approach to religion, politics or economics.

> I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will
> never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way
> to be a target?
>

Don't look now, Roger, but your 'low principles' warning light is on.

I think what you are proposing is to cower in your home just in case, by 
going out after dark, you might attract a bully, a thief, a murderer, or a 
rapist. And if you do, well,  then it was your fault and you should 
apologize. I don't mean this personally, but people with ideas such as that 
deserve to be subjegated by terrorism and are a threat to their own freedom 
and that of their neighbours.  BTW, Canada lost about 100 of our citizens in 
that attack and we have done nothing to Saudia Arabia, Islam, or, 
unfortunately, Usama bin Laden.  

No matter how you try to explain and excuse it, killing 5,000 innocent people 
in a massive atrocity is not "alright" or "understandable" no matter how you 
slice it. It is wrong, it is an outrage and it is an affront to all people 
who have any sense of fairness, compassion or human decency. Obviously, YMMV.

-- 
burns


> On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:48 -0400
>
> burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On September 17, 2001 03:30 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | > I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper'
> | > part that has been the problem.  What we consider to be so is not what
> | > everyone considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay
> | > out. Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything
> | > we do not take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US
> | > always does things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The
> | > world will go to hell if the US sits back? There is another problem.
> | > Ego. The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world
> | > safe. To paraphrase Keith, as long as there are humans, there will be
> | > those who cause problems.
> |
> | "Doing nothing is itself a course of action, but inevitably a bad one"
> |
> | This isn't about going around fixing other people's problems. Terrorism
> | affects us all, directly. It has been a long festering sore. It's now
> | erupted into a putrid cancer that must be dealt with. I don't think free
> | countries of the world will tolerate this anymore. They have said "OK,
> | this has gone too far. We're pissed off and morally outraged. Now we're
> | going to deal with this."
> |
> | To this end, I don't think 1939 Chamberlain appeasement or inactivity is
> | either practical or appropiate, given what has occurred.  In WWII some
> | countries capitulated politically to the Nazis. Others simply stood back
> | and allowed them to roll through their country to commit atrocities upon
> | their neighbours. They have since been struggling to downplay and expunge
> | a part of their history that they are not very proud of.  But the stigma
> | will always remain - when the time came to do 

Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 20:01, Joel Hammer wrote:
| H is no different from S&M
| (Stalin and Mao.)

yeah he is. he killed nowhere near as many people as the other two 
did.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Collins Richey]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:31:05 -0400 dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Monday 17 September 2001 12:20, Bruce Marshall wrote:
> 
> | I looked at this site for a long time and I never really did find
> | out what their agenda is...  Phrases like being against 'the
> | Bush Program' are throughout but never a statement dealing with
> | specifics.
> |
> | And the list of 'endorsers'  speaks volumes...
> 

Their agenda is quite clear - these are the same, impotent, whining
socialists who derive the benefits of our wonderful country but
despise everything American.  They hate the blood and gore of the WTC
disaster, but they applaud the accomplishment - one strike against
corporate America.  They would if they could acomplish the same thing
that Bin Laden and cronies are trying - to bring down America.  If
they fear anything, they fear that America will be seized with a
patriotic fervor and actually clean out the rats' nests that foment
such acts as the one this week.  Their dream is that of a controlled
society (notice the groups mourning the departure of the Communist
experiment in Central America are on board); theirs is not the
American dream!

I pray that they and their sympathizers will be recognized for what
they are - essentially irrelavant.


-- 
Collins Richey
Denver Area
gentoo_rc6 xfce+sylpheed
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Re: New York WTC

[stayler]

No but I am a nodataforyou.networknazi  ;-)

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:23:16 -0400, Michael Scottaline wrote:

>
>ST> 
>ST> I hearby envoke the Neticate rule that a thread be immediately
>ST> terminated upon mention of the H word
>ST> 
>ST> stayler
>===
>Dammit Shawn,
>   Who do you think you are, Hitler???  ;-)
>Mike

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Re: New York WTC

[Collins Richey]

[ snips ]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400 dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:

Who gives a rats patoot about Bin Ladens's complaints against the US
or anyone else?

> 
> your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted.

Right on, dep!

-- 
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Denver Area
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Re: New York WTC

[Joel Hammer]

I think that the H word is not so bad.
H is not a daemon. He was a very badly flawed human being who led his nation
into disaster and got millions of people killed in the bargain. We should
study his life carefully, not make him into an unmentionable demigod.
During his life (at least while he was winning) he was admired by
many people, among them Gandhi. (Gandhi was opposed to English
imperialism and he admired H's diplomatic victories, won without
bloodshed. [This is based one quote I have from Gandhi regarding Herr H.])
You can learn much from the study of such men and the times in which
they lived.
SO, phooey on this simplistic rule. H is no different from S&M (Stalin and
Mao.)
Joel


On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:23:16PM -0400, Michael Scottaline wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:46:45 -0700 (PST)
> "Shawn Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> insightfully noted:
> 
> 
> ST> 
> ST> I hearby envoke the Neticate rule that a thread be immediately
> ST> terminated upon mention of the H word
> ST> 
> ST> stayler
> ===
> Dammit Shawn,
>   Who do you think you are, Hitler???  ;-)
> Mike
> 
> -- 
> "One can search the brain with a microscope and not find the mind, and
> can search the stars with a telescope and not find God."
>  -- J. Gustav White
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Re: New York WTC

[Michael Scottaline]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:46:45 -0700 (PST)
"Shawn Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> insightfully noted:


ST> 
ST> I hearby envoke the Neticate rule that a thread be immediately
ST> terminated upon mention of the H word
ST> 
ST> stayler
===
Dammit Shawn,
Who do you think you are, Hitler???  ;-)
Mike

-- 
"One can search the brain with a microscope and not find the mind, and
can search the stars with a telescope and not find God."
 -- J. Gustav White
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Re: New York WTC

[Stuart Biggerstaff]

In the "Is that a good thing or a bad thing?" department...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010917/aponline114219_000.htm

If bin Laden is guilty, this brings the very real possibility of solving 
the immediate problem without having much effect on terrorism as a force. I 
mean, if we were to return to a situation where W. Europe rarely saw acts 
of terrorism and America were immune we lose our excuse to get tough.


Stuart Biggerstaff

Linda Hall Library
5109 Cherry
Kansas City, MO 64110

Phone:  (816) 926-8748
 (800) 662-1545 x748
FAX:(816) 926-8785
URL:www.lindahall.org

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Re: New York WTC

[Rick Sivernell]

On Monday 17 September 2001 12:15 pm, you wrote:
> Rick Sivernell wrote:
> > > http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html
> >
> > Can't speak german,
> > cheers
>
> Use the fish, Luke.  As in babelfish translator.  Give it the URL and it
> will convert it to English.
>
> --Tom Wilson
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  I did not know about that. I thought it was for developers onlt in projects

cheers
-- 
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972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: New York WTC

[Kurt Wall]

]
Yup. Deliberately mentioning hitler doesn't kill the thread.

Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
% Not a fair use of "hitler"
% 
% On Monday 17 September 2001 10:49, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
% > It seems like Hitler once thought like this.
% >
% >
% >
% >
% >
% > dep
% >  irony.com>   cc:
% > Sent by: Subject: Re: New York WTC
% > linux-users-admin
% > @linux.nf
% >
% >
% > 09/17/01 12:42 PM
% > Please respond to
% > linux-users
% >
% > On Monday 17 September 2001 10:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
% > | So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
% > | statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
% > | PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear
% > | enough in the opening line of my post.
% >
% > if i misread you, i apologize. we're starting to hear bigtime from
% > the blame america first crowd, and i have no patience for them. i've
% > seen several people put forward the arguments you made as if they
% > were gospel, and again, i'm sorry if i interpreted your remarks as
% > being along that line, which in my estimation is intolerable.
% >
% > --
% > dep
% >
% > There is sobbing of the strong,
% > And a pall upon the land;
% > But the People in their weeping
% > Bare the iron hand;
% > Beware the
% > People weeping
% > When they bare the iron hand.
% > ___
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% > ->http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
% >
% >
% >
% >
% > ___
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% 
% -- 
% Ronnie
% ==
% Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
% it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 12:20, Bruce Marshall wrote:

| I looked at this site for a long time and I never really did find
| out what their agenda is...  Phrases like being against 'the
| Bush Program' are throughout but never a statement dealing with
| specifics.
|
| And the list of 'endorsers'  speaks volumes...

maybe this will help:

Stand Against Racism and War! Beat Back the Bush Attack!

Heartfelt sympathies and condolences are with all those whose loved 
ones were lost or injured on September 11, 2001. At this moment, we 
would all like to take time to reflect, to grieve, to extend sympathy 
and condolences to all.But we believe that we must do more. 
We must act. Unless we stop President Bush from carrying out a new, 
wider war in the Middle East and beyond, the number of innocent 
victims will grow from the thousands to the tens of thousands and 
possibly more. A new, wider U.S. war in the Middle East can only lead 
to an escalating cycle of violence. War is not the answer.
After the horrific killings of thousands of innocent civilians on 
Sept. 11, the Bush administration is moving in a very ominous 
direction. In a chilling statement, Bush administration spokespersons 
have called for "ending states," an unprecedented threat.
At the same time, Arab American and Muslim people in the United 
States -- as well as other communities of color -- are facing racist 
attacks and harassment in their communities, on their jobs and at 
mosques. Anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism is a poison that should be 
repudiated.
The government is attempting to curb civil liberties and to create a 
climate in which it is impossible for progressive people to speak 
their mind. The Bush administration is attempting to take advantage 
of this crisis to militarize U.S. society with a vast expansion of 
police powers that is intended to severely restrict basic democratic 
rights.
On September 29 we had planned to demonstrate against the Bush 
administration's reactionary foreign and domestic policy and the IMF 
and World Bank. In light of the current crisis, with its tragic 
consequences for so many thousands of people, we have refocused the 
call for our demonstration to address the immediate danger posed by 
increased racism and the grave threat of a new war.
Now is the time for all people of conscience, all people who oppose 
racism and war to come together. If you believe in civil liberties 
and oppose racism and war, join us on September 29 in front of the 
White House. We urge all organizations to join together at this 
critical time.
National March in Washington, D.C.
Saturday, September 29, 2001
Rally 11 am at Lafayette Park (across from the White House)
SIGNERS:
Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General, 
Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, Auxiliary Bishop, Catholic Archdiocese of 
Detroit 
Samia Halaby, Al-Awda Palestine Right of Return Coalition 
Barbara Lubin, Executive Director, Middle East Children's Alliance 
Nania Kaur Dhingra, Sikh Student Organization, George Washington 
University 
Chuck Kaufman, National Co-Coordinator, Nicaragua Network 
Njeri Shakur, Texas Death Penalty Abolition Movement, National 
Lawyers Guild

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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RE: New York WTC

[Tom Wilson]

Rick Sivernell wrote:
> > http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html
> Can't speak german,
> cheers

Use the fish, Luke.  As in babelfish translator.  Give it the URL and it
will convert it to English. 

--Tom Wilson
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RE: New York WTC

[Wil McGilvery]

A co-worker who speaks German simply said someone cracked the subscriber list of a 
militant Islam newsletter. It contains 500 email addresses.

Regards,
 
Wil McGilvery
Manager, Digital Media

 
Lynch Technologies Inc.
416-744-7191
1-888-622-3729
416-744-0406  FAX
www.lynchdigital.com
 
 
 

 
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Rick Sivernell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New York WTC

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:17 am, you wrote:
> score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted
> open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who
> committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email
> addresses. story is here:
>
> http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html
Can't speak german,
cheers


--
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
        ^ ^
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Re: New York WTC

[Rick Sivernell]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:17 am, you wrote:
> score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted
> open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who
> committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email
> addresses. story is here:
>
> http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html
Can't speak german,
cheers


-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
        ^ ^
In Linux we trust!
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Re: New York WTC

[Shawn Tayler]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:49:53 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
>It seems like Hitler once thought like this.

Ok,

I hearby envoke the Neticate rule that a thread be immediately
terminated upon mention of the H word

stayler

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Re: New York WTC

[Shawn Tayler]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:45:00 +0200, Olle Viksten wrote:

>
>FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we 
>don't have crepes we have pannkakor.

Lol!  point well taken.  ;-)

stayler

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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

guess it is a bit unfair, bout the same way as saying we did this to 
ourselves.
On Monday 17 September 2001 10:56, dep wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit,
> | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
>
> unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good
> guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here:
>
> http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html

-- 
Ronnie
==
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[Rick Sivernell]

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:56 am, you wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit,
> | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
>
> unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good
> guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here:
>
> http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html

who the hell are these idiots. Laden supporters
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Registered Linux User

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      /( _ )\
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Re: New York WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:56 am, dep wrote:
> | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit,
> | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
>
> unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good
> guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here:
>
> http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html

I looked at this site for a long time and I never really did find out what 
their agenda is...  Phrases like being against 'the Bush Program' are 
throughout but never a statement dealing with specifics.

And the list of 'endorsers'  speaks volumes...



-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/17/01 12:19  +
++
"Men don't change. The only thing new in the world is the history you don't
  know." - President Harry S. Truman (1884-1972)
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted 
open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who 
committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email 
addresses. story is here:

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

I see that the basic intent of my statement is well understood though.

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:45, Olle Viksten wrote:
> måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote:
> > Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you
> > have been away from meat and potatoes too long.
>
> FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And
> we don't have crepes we have pannkakor.
>
> Olle Viksten
> ___
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-- 
Ronnie
==
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
| Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit,
| you have been away from meat and potatoes too long.

unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good 
guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here:

http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

Not a fair use of "hitler"

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:49, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It seems like Hitler once thought like this.
>
>
>
>
>
> dep
>  irony.com>   cc:
> Sent by:         Subject: Re: New York WTC
> linux-users-admin
> @linux.nf
>
>
> 09/17/01 12:42 PM
> Please respond to
> linux-users
>
> On Monday 17 September 2001 10:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
> | statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
> | PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear
> | enough in the opening line of my post.
>
> if i misread you, i apologize. we're starting to hear bigtime from
> the blame america first crowd, and i have no patience for them. i've
> seen several people put forward the arguments you made as if they
> were gospel, and again, i'm sorry if i interpreted your remarks as
> being along that line, which in my estimation is intolerable.
>
> --
> dep
>
> There is sobbing of the strong,
> And a pall upon the land;
> But the People in their weeping
> Bare the iron hand;
> Beware the
> People weeping
> When they bare the iron hand.
> ___
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>
>
>
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-- 
Ronnie
==
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 11:10, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

| This week I was to be in Riyadh. For the first time I can remember,
| I really have been a bit afraid to go. Due to flight delays, my
| VISA has been held up. Sort of saved by the bell.

yeah. i'd do my best to avoid that part of the world. frankly, until 
there's a better handle on this, i'd do my best to avoid being in 
crowds as well. and i'd stay in touch with the embassy -- there's 
some possibility that it will for a change be issuing good 
information. but saudia is never the best place to be, and the things 
that are going to unfold are likely to make a bad place to be a much 
worse place to be.

| This is probably a bit of an explaination for my incessant
| rumblings on this here. This is a first for me. I have never felt
| being an American abroad was a problem. Most people have far more
| complaints against the Germans, who are the real ones throwing
| their economic weight around in this part of the world. Not to
| mention their territorial beach behavior.

yeah. germany has decided that they're willing to fight this war to 
the last american. there's a lot of backchannel jockeying for 
position. italy has decided to cheer us on from the sidelines, but 
the last time italy defeated anybody their opponent was equipped with 
spears and rocks -- a little less threatening than is current 
afghanistan, but not much -- so that little matters. i think that 
it's pretty clear that the u.s. can count on the u.s., and if anybody 
else comes along, fine. but we're the target of the bad guys, and the 
bad guys are the target of us.

| A friend of mine in southern France has said that they have been
| warned to be discrete in speaking English and being identified as
| an American. There is concern that bin Laden's suggestion that 'if
| you see an American, kill him' might start to happen.

i think that it is highly likely that there will be some of this. and 
i think it's important to remember that while bin laden may have had 
a part in this, there is every reason to think he was far from alone.

| I was joking on the 'i dunno...' thing. I have no intention of
| giving up citizenship. Maybe just the accent.

yeah. an american passport is a more grave thing today than ever 
before. here's to you for taking some pride in it, because where you 
are it's a lot more meaningful -- it's easy to wave the flag over 
here.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Matt . Carpenter]

I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this thread.

Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal?  It is
interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one of his
books, to hear his comments.

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Re: New York WTC

[Matt . Carpenter]

It seems like Hitler once thought like this.




   
 
dep
 
   cc:   
 
Sent by: Subject: Re: New York WTC 
 
linux-users-admin  
 
@linux.nf  
 
   
 
   
 
09/17/01 12:42 PM  
 
Please respond to  
 
linux-users
 
   
 
   
 




On Monday 17 September 2001 10:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

| So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
| statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
| PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear
| enough in the opening line of my post.

if i misread you, i apologize. we're starting to hear bigtime from
the blame america first crowd, and i have no patience for them. i've
seen several people put forward the arguments you made as if they
were gospel, and again, i'm sorry if i interpreted your remarks as
being along that line, which in my estimation is intolerable.

--
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Olle Viksten]

måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote:
> Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have
> been away from meat and potatoes too long.

FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we 
don't have crepes we have pannkakor.

Olle Viksten
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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

Our main concesion to Pakistan is the layoff of $30B in debt they owe us.

On Monday 17 September 2001 09:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400
>
> dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
> | |
> | |   - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
> | | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
> | | have not left.
> |
> | we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi
> | royal family.
>
> So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
> statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
> PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in
> the opening line of my post.
>
> | |   - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
> | | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
> | | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
> | | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
> | | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.
> |
> | "proper islamic setup"? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest
> | ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement
> | painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite,
> | would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which
> | includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of
> | the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like
>
>  (Never said they were. But they are Moslem...)
>
> | so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about.
>
> Not so.  I was stating how  bin Laden  sees it.
> And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to
> fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants.
> I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it.
> I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind
> set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees
> with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities
> and those of the rest of "the base".
>
> Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic
> setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most
> Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating
> what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants.
> Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here
> nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT
> agreeing with. Just describing.
>
> And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality.
> Only his perception.
>
> (And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned
> Americans. And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And,
> all any of us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is
> so cut and dry that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No
> matter what one of us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it
> full of holes.)
>
> | |   - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
> | | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
> | | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
> | | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
> | | the price of attacks at home?
> |
> | your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a
> | toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell,
> | which shall be coming along to collect him shortly.
>
> 'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it.
>
> Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this.
> I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips
> with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what
> was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing?
>
> I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now.
> They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could
> they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they
> been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how
> bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning?
>
> This was what my exercise was all about.
>
> | | In no way does this justify September 11th.
> |
> | ah yes, the whole "the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that
> | the u.s. had it coming" crap we're beginning to hear from the
> | cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world.
>
> You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have
> this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not
> feel this about my character. Your statemen

Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

| So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
| statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
| PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear
| enough in the opening line of my post.

if i misread you, i apologize. we're starting to hear bigtime from 
the blame america first crowd, and i have no patience for them. i've 
seen several people put forward the arguments you made as if they 
were gospel, and again, i'm sorry if i interpreted your remarks as 
being along that line, which in my estimation is intolerable.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

In basics it breaks down like this.
Bin-Laden needs money. Period. Now he has increased the output of opium in 
Afhganistan to double what it was, they are now the largest exporter of dried 
poppies in the east. His followers guard the shippments, Bin-Laden collects a 
10% tax on all opium exports. But he has a problem, he needs more money. 
Suadia Arabia is the country, in his mind, that can be most easily 
destabilized and couped. He does not give a rats ass about any country except 
as a money spigot. He does not givs a rats ass about any people save his own 
fanatical followers, and those are expendable.

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:00, Shawn Tayler wrote:
> Hello Roger,
>
> While I understand your position I must disagree.  The American
> presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no
> doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent.
>  Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot
> who is looking to grab power in KSA.  He sees the power that the
> Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and
> torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course.
> There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the
> US.  Money and power, that is all this guy is after.
>
> Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah.  The
> fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women
> wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics.  Now
> the country is little better than a police state.
>
> Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination.
> History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the
> US under mormon governace during the 18th century.  Its always easy to
> slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its
> ok
>
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> >In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just
> >stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over
> >oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started
> >by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible.
> >
> >I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will
> >never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way
> >to be a target?
>
> ___
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-- 
Ronnie
==
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[Ronnie Gauthier]

Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have 
been away from meat and potatoes too long.

On Monday 17 September 2001 09:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:27:13 -0400
>
> dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | | The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world
> | | safe.
> |
> | i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making
> | the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that
> | means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our
> | national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises
> | money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the
> | marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war
> | debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and
> | shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given
>
> I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many
> years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not
> having one. These days, i dunno...
>
> | developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a
> | zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper
> | -- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the
> | events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well
> | meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how
> | deserved it all.
> |
> | you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked
> | our old attitude better.
> | --

-- 
Ronnie
==
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

I did not disagree with any of that. Bin Laden is an opportunist using
what he defines as religion as a framework for taking control. He may even
believe what he preaches. I think he does. And if we are going to deal
with him and 'the base' we should understand this and assume that they
really believe it. Otherwise we will be shooting in the dark. And perhaps
upset others to no end.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:00:19 -0700 (PST)
"Shawn Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| Hello Roger,
| 
| While I understand your position I must disagree.  The American
| presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no
| doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent.
|  Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot
| who is looking to grab power in KSA.  He sees the power that the
| Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and
| torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course. 
| There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the
| US.  Money and power, that is all this guy is after.  
| 
| Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah.  The
| fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women
| wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics.  Now
| the country is little better than a police state.  
| 
| Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination. 
| History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the
| US under mormon governace during the 18th century.  Its always easy to
| slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its
| ok
| 
| 
| On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| 
| >In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just
| >stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over
| >oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started
| >by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible.
| >
| >I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will
| >never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way
| >to be a target?
| 
| ___
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-- 
=
Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OPQ Systems AB   WWW:   http://www.opq.se
Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43  Phone:   Int + 46 8 314223 
115 32 Stockholm  Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657
Sweden   Fax:   Int + 46 8 302602
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:11:16 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On Monday 17 September 2001 10:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| 
| | I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many
| | years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not
| | having one. These days, i dunno...
| 
| do what you think is right or, lacking that, what you think best 
| enhances your personal safety. you have probably picked a good place 
| to be.

This week I was to be in Riyadh. For the first time I can remember, I
really have been a bit afraid to go. Due to flight delays, my VISA has
been held up. Sort of saved by the bell.

This is probably a bit of an explaination for my incessant rumblings on
this here. This is a first for me. I have never felt being an American
abroad was a problem. Most people have far more complaints against the
Germans, who are the real ones throwing their economic weight around in
this part of the world. Not to mention their territorial beach behavior.

A friend of mine in southern France has said that they have been warned to
be discrete in speaking English and being identified as an American. There
is concern that bin Laden's suggestion that 'if you see an American, kill
him' might start to happen.

I was joking on the 'i dunno...' thing. I have no intention of giving up
citizenship. Maybe just the accent.

-- 
=
Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OPQ Systems AB   WWW:   http://www.opq.se
Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43  Phone:   Int + 46 8 314223 
115 32 Stockholm  Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657
Sweden   Fax:   Int + 46 8 302602
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
| |
| | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
| |   KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
| |   have not left.
| 
| we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi 
| royal family.

So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS PRESENTING,
feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in the opening
line of my post.

| | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
| |   many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
| |   Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
| |   the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
| |   the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.
| 
| "proper islamic setup"? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest 
| ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement 
| painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite, 
| would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which 
| includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of 
| the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like 
 (Never said they were. But they are Moslem...)
| so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about.

Not so.  I was stating how  bin Laden  sees it.
And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to
fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants.
I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it.
I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind
set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees
with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities
and those of the rest of "the base".

Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic
setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most
Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating
what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants.
Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here
nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT
agreeing with. Just describing.

And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality.
Only his perception.

(And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned Americans.
And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And, all any of
us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is so cut and dry
that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No matter what one of
us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it full of holes.)

| | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
| |   As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
| |   that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
| |   or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
| |   the price of attacks at home?
| 
| your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a 
| toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell, 
| which shall be coming along to collect him shortly. 

'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it.

Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this.
I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips
with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what
was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing?

I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now.
They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could
they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they
been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how
bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning? 

This was what my exercise was all about.

| | In no way does this justify September 11th.
| 
| ah yes, the whole "the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that 
| the u.s. had it coming" crap we're beginning to hear from the 
| cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world.

You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have
this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not
feel this about my character. Your statement absolutely does not describe
me. Perhaps in the sake of brevity this does not come across. That is
my mistake.

I am only suggesting that the US pay more attention to the whole picture.

Take Pakistan. (Insert joke here.) The US poured lots of money into
Pakistan when

Re: New York WTC

[Shawn Tayler]

Hello Roger,

While I understand your position I must disagree.  The American
presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no
doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent.
 Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot
who is looking to grab power in KSA.  He sees the power that the
Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and
torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course. 
There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the
US.  Money and power, that is all this guy is after.  

Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah.  The
fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women
wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics.  Now
the country is little better than a police state.  

Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination. 
History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the
US under mormon governace during the 18th century.  Its always easy to
slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its
ok


On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

>In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just
>stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over
>oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started
>by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible.
>
>I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will
>never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way
>to be a target?

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Re: New York WTC

[Rick Sivernell]

Roger
HMMM

  I see where you are going, & that would be nice. Actually that was what the 
UN was for. But as you know, that does not work very well. We spend an 
massive amount of resource there and it is down a black hole. Besides there 
is so much bickering going on, compare it to our Republican/Democrates. There 
needs to be a leader here, one nation that stands for all nations. We are 
that one. It cost us dearly, but we do it. We cannot appease everyone, nor 
are we going to try. We live by our freedom and we may perish by it to, but 
do not look for any time soon. With out the US doing what we do. This planet 
will turn to koas. That would end up on our door step. WW II is an example of 
this. We were in an isolationist mode then, we ended up in your war. You did 
not have a way of grouping together then and you want us  to be there when 
you need us. Otherwise we are not to be seen. You can not have it both ways. 
It just does not work. Yea you can give us ablody nose, but you risk the 
might the will and our resolve. We are not the Romans of old, The Old Egytian 
empire or Babalyon, We do not go where we are not asked to be unless you 
screw with us and then you have more than you bargin for.

cheers my freind
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
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Re: New York WTC

[Olle Viksten]

måndagen den 17 september 2001 16.02 you wrote:

> I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many
> years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not
> having one. These days, i dunno...

Have you seen the site for SLUG (Stockholm Linux UserGroup)? 
http://slug.qbranch.se/ We meet every Monday at Engelbrektsgatan (can't 
remember the number right now). 

Olle Viksten

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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 10:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

| I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many
| years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not
| having one. These days, i dunno...

do what you think is right or, lacking that, what you think best 
enhances your personal safety. you have probably picked a good place 
to be.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:27:13 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| | The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world 
| | safe. 
| 
| i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making 
| the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that 
| means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our 
| national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises 
| money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the 
| marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war 
| debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and 
| shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given 

I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many
years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not
having one. These days, i dunno...

| developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a 
| zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper 
| -- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the 
| events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well 
| meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how 
| deserved it all.
| 
| you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked 
| our old attitude better.
| -- 

-- 
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
|
|   - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
| KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
| have not left.

we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi 
royal family.

|   - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
| many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
| Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
| the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
| the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.

"proper islamic setup"? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest 
ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement 
painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite, 
would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which 
includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of 
the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like 
so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about.

|   - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
| As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
| that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
| or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
| the price of attacks at home?

your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a 
toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell, 
which shall be coming along to collect him shortly. 

| In no way does this justify September 11th.

ah yes, the whole "the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that 
the u.s. had it coming" crap we're beginning to hear from the 
cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world.

| But if the US would
| just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the
| concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an
| Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it.
| Conserve. It is possible.
|
| I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There
| will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of
| your way to be a target?

your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world 
| safe. 

i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making 
the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that 
means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our 
national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises 
money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the 
marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war 
debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and 
shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given 
developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a 
zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper 
-- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the 
events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well 
meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how 
deserved it all.

you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked 
our old attitude better.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:15:01 -0500
Rick Sivernell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| Roger
| 
|   You need to open your eyes here. It does not matter what the greivence is, 
| terrors want change to what they deem is correct. If you disagree, I kill you 
| in Jihade. If you capitulate, your are my slave, The KSA is just an excuse 
| here. Laden wants KSA to follow Iraq. Also he leads as supreme leader. Not 
| ing Likely. Read your history, when you sit back, you get goobled up. You 
| just cant turn the other ckeek here, they will hit it too.

I absolutely did not mean to imply that the US should not retaliate.
A show of weakness is not the right thing. And, the US should work
to decrease terrorist activities in the world. All this I am in
favor of.

I just feel that in the future the US should think a bit more about
foreign involvements and the results. To deny the mindset of these
fundamentalist Moslems is to invite disaster. Yes - stomp out the
terrorist cells. There is no place for this type of activity.

But pay closer attention to foreign relationships. The US has a nack for
choosing an alliance that works for the immediate moment, and forgets
or ignores the fact that they are also setting up a power keg when and
if whatever the immediate problem is gets solved. I am simply wishing
that the US would look further ahead. If not, then stay out.

-- 
=
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OPQ Systems AB   WWW:   http://www.opq.se
Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43  Phone:   Int + 46 8 314223 
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Re: New York WTC

[Rick Sivernell]

Roger

  You need to open your eyes here. It does not matter what the greivence is, 
terrors want change to what they deem is correct. If you disagree, I kill you 
in Jihade. If you capitulate, your are my slave, The KSA is just an excuse 
here. Laden wants KSA to follow Iraq. Also he leads as supreme leader. Not 
ing Likely. Read your history, when you sit back, you get goobled up. You 
just cant turn the other ckeek here, they will hit it too.
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
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      /( _ )\
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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:

- The US currently has a state of military occupation in
  KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
  have not left.

- bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
  many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
  Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
  the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
  the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.

- So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
  As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
  that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
  or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
  the price of attacks at home?

In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just
stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over
oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started
by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible.

I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will
never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way
to be a target?

On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:48 -0400
burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On September 17, 2001 03:30 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| 
| >
| > I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part
| > that has been the problem.  What we consider to be so is not what everyone
| > considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out.
| > Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not
| > take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does
| > things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to
| > hell if the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to
| > accept the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith,
| > as long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems.
| 
| 
| "Doing nothing is itself a course of action, but inevitably a bad one"
| 
| This isn't about going around fixing other people's problems. Terrorism 
| affects us all, directly. It has been a long festering sore. It's now erupted 
| into a putrid cancer that must be dealt with. I don't think free countries of 
| the world will tolerate this anymore. They have said "OK, this has gone too 
| far. We're pissed off and morally outraged. Now we're going to deal with 
| this."
| 
| To this end, I don't think 1939 Chamberlain appeasement or inactivity is 
| either practical or appropiate, given what has occurred.  In WWII some 
| countries capitulated politically to the Nazis. Others simply stood back and 
| allowed them to roll through their country to commit atrocities upon their 
| neighbours. They have since been struggling to downplay and expunge a part of 
| their history that they are not very proud of.  But the stigma will always 
| remain - when the time came to do the right thing, they did nothing.
| 
| Peace is a noble goal we all strive for. But not at ANY cost not when the 
| price is the diginity of a nation and the future security and well-being of 
| our children. There comes a time when good people must act.
| 
| How would you feel if you did nothing and next year one of your own children 
| were killed by these same terrorists?
| -- 
| burns
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115 32 Stockholm  Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657
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Re: New York WTC

[Kurt Wall]

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
% On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:30:51 -0400
% Bruce Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
% 
%|Exactly.  One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be 
%|liked by the world.  As long as what we do is 'correct and proper',  let the 
%|world think what it wants.
% 
% I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part
% that has been the problem.  What we consider to be so is not what everyone
% considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out.
% Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not
% take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does things,
% everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to hell if
% the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to accept
% the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, as
% long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. 
% 
% I know this is unrealistic and will never happen. But if it did, it would
% be best for the US. Maybe not for the world. But maybe the world does not
% want to be helped. (I'm writing this and it is only Monday...)

Hmm. The US is damned it it does and damned if it doesn't. If it
becomes self-absorbed or isolationist, a significant part of the world
community complains the US has abdicated its leadership role or pisses 
and moans because they monetary aid ceases to flow. But US involvement
in region X or on any side of issue Y, whether it serves US national
interests or not, also results in both praise and condemnation. Given such
a position 'twixt Scylla and Charybdis, US leaders and the population
as a whole have rightly concluded it is best to act and to take
positions that do serve US interests. Said positions and actions, not
coincidentally, also seem to serve the interests of other countries as
well.

And, yes, the world will go to hell if the US sits back.

Kurt
-- 
Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do.
Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do.
-- Mark Twain
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Re: New York WTC

[burns]

On September 17, 2001 03:30 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

>
> I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part
> that has been the problem.  What we consider to be so is not what everyone
> considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out.
> Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not
> take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does
> things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to
> hell if the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to
> accept the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith,
> as long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems.


"Doing nothing is itself a course of action, but inevitably a bad one"

This isn't about going around fixing other people's problems. Terrorism 
affects us all, directly. It has been a long festering sore. It's now erupted 
into a putrid cancer that must be dealt with. I don't think free countries of 
the world will tolerate this anymore. They have said "OK, this has gone too 
far. We're pissed off and morally outraged. Now we're going to deal with 
this."

To this end, I don't think 1939 Chamberlain appeasement or inactivity is 
either practical or appropiate, given what has occurred.  In WWII some 
countries capitulated politically to the Nazis. Others simply stood back and 
allowed them to roll through their country to commit atrocities upon their 
neighbours. They have since been struggling to downplay and expunge a part of 
their history that they are not very proud of.  But the stigma will always 
remain - when the time came to do the right thing, they did nothing.

Peace is a noble goal we all strive for. But not at ANY cost not when the 
price is the diginity of a nation and the future security and well-being of 
our children. There comes a time when good people must act.

How would you feel if you did nothing and next year one of your own children 
were killed by these same terrorists?
-- 
burns
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RE: WTC

[Trevor Stuart]

Bruce,

Could you send me a copy too, please.

Many thanks,
Trevor Stuart
(British but standing with you!)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Bruce Marshall
Sent: 14 September 2001 19:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: WTC


I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me
to
send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
glad to pass it on.

StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.

--
+---
-+
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01
14:13  +
+---
-+

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Re: New York WTC

[Roger Oberholtzer]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:30:51 -0400
Bruce Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| On Friday 14 September 2001 19:57 pm, dep wrote:
| > | What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all.
| > | It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking
| > | snow-white and in shining armour.
| >
| > unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday
| > possible.
| 
| Exactly.  One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be 
| liked by the world.  As long as what we do is 'correct and proper',  let the 
| world think what it wants.

I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part
that has been the problem.  What we consider to be so is not what everyone
considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out.
Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not
take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does things,
everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to hell if
the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to accept
the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, as
long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. 

I know this is unrealistic and will never happen. But if it did, it would
be best for the US. Maybe not for the world. But maybe the world does not
want to be helped. (I'm writing this and it is only Monday...)

-- 
=
Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OPQ Systems AB   WWW:   http://www.opq.se
Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43  Phone:   Int + 46 8 314223 
115 32 Stockholm  Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657
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Re: New York WTC: Not more guns

[Bill Campbell]

On Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:15:24PM -0700, Shawn Tayler wrote:
...
>An armed person is a citizen, an unarmed person is a subject.  I prefer
>to be a citizen. 

Two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch is a Democracy.  Liberty is a well-
armed lamb protecting the rights of the minority.

(note the quote below was random, not selected to be appropriate to this
post -- although I do select the pool of available quotes :-).

Bill
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``The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be
properly armed.''
-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
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Re: New York WTC: Not more guns

[dep]

On Sunday 16 September 2001 20:25, R. Quenett wrote:

| Accepting ab initio the impossibility of the perfect, I personally
| would *far* rather take my chances in any situation in which both I
| and the people around me were free to arm ourselves as we chose
| than in any situation in which I and they were compelled to consign
| ourselves and our safety to the care of any government official,
| however well intentioned, well trained, and professional the first
| cohort of these might be at their beginning.
|
| Government (generally) has been shown to be utterly incompetent at
| ensuring airline security (El Al is not a counterexample). They
| should get out of the business. Now.

absolutely, entirely, utterly correct. in all respects.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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RE: New York WTC: Not more guns

[R. Quenett]

from Shawn Tayler:

" On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:09:15 +1000, Shane Broomhall wrote:
" 
" >I am not a pacifist, an anti gun person, I have 14 years military service
" >behind me, in Australia.  I just think that having more weapons on board
" >being carried by civilians really would not help, and it would more than
" >likely create more problems that it would cure.
" 
" I would tend to agree with your point, however, that was one of the
" reasons the Terrorists were able to carry out this act.  They chose a
" place where the people are completely defensless.  The Beaurocrats are
" now adding fuel to the fire by removing all knives and, I can't believe
" this, fingernail clippers.  



Accepting ab initio the impossibility of the perfect, I personally would
*far* rather take my chances in any situation in which both I and the people
around me were free to arm ourselves as we chose than in any situation
in which I and they were compelled to consign ourselves and our safety
to the care of any government official, however well intentioned,
well trained, and professional the first cohort of these might be 
at their beginning.

Government (generally) has been shown to be utterly incompetent at ensuring
airline security (El Al is not a counterexample). They should get out of the
business. Now.



[]

R
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Re: New York WTC

[Joel Hammer]

>From the BBC.
American violence has spilled over into Africa. 
Joel


Obasanjo demands end to strife

The Nigerian president Olusegun Obasanjo has visited the central city of Jos
following religious violence believed to have left as many as 500 people
dead.

Clashes broke out between the city's Muslim and Christian groups on 7
September, and intensified earlier this week in the wake of the devastating
attacks on the United States.

It is a gory site. I have gone around to see things for myself
President Obasanjo

Mr Obasanjo described the violence that has occurred in Jos as an "an act of
extreme barbarity".

A BBC correspondent who was in the city when the clashes broke out said she
saw two people killed with machetes. Their attackers praised God as they
carried out the murders.  <--God is Great. (My comment.)

Hundreds dead
Thousands of inhabitants have reportedly fled their homes, and have been
sheltering in army camps outside the city.

An army contingent has been sent into the city to enforce a curfew in the
hope of preventing further outbreaks of violence.

Mr Obasanjo fears the bloodshed could spread
In addition to the dead, more than 1,000 people have reportedly been injured
in the course of the clashes.

According to the French news agency AFP, some 300 people have been arrested,
although it is as yet unclear how many have been charged.

Mr Obasanjo has said the violence was a disgrace for the country.

"It is a gory site," he said after touring the city. "I have gone around to
see things for myself."

Spreading tensions
The population of Jos, the capital of the Plateau State, is overwhelmingly
Christian, but there is a sizeable Muslim community. 

Fulanis and Hausas - two of Nigeria's largest ethnic groups - make up a
large proportion of the Muslims in the city.

Relations between Christians and Muslims in northern Nigeria have been tense
since the introduction of the Sharia Islamic law in 12 states.(Whoaaa. The
Muslins started it ??!! But I thought they were the victims!) 

In February last year, more than 2,000 people were killed in religious
unrest in Kaduna, and some 450 more Nigerians died in reprisals in the
south-east of the country.

Reuters reports that Mr Obasanjo has sent ministerial delegations to other
potential trouble spots to appeal for calm and to stop the bloodshed
spreading across the country.

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Re: New York WTC

[Shawn Tayler]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:27:52 -0400, Lee wrote:

>It's amazing! These two Christian bigots have made millions pushing the message of a 
>man who
>never had a sheckel he didn't give away. Part of his message was that it is easier 
>for a camel
>to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Maybe they 
>should
>spend a little more of their time spreading their wealth around rather than spreading 
>hate.

Never happen.  these two pin heads are disgusting, but way to many
people lap up their dren like its ice cream

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RE: New York WTC: Not more guns

[Shawn Tayler]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:09:15 +1000, Shane Broomhall wrote:

>I am not a pacifist, an anti gun person, I have 14 years military service
>behind me, in Australia.  I just think that having more weapons on board
>being carried by civilians really would not help, and it would more than
>likely create more problems that it would cure.

I would tend to agree with your point, however, that was one of the
reasons the Terrorists were able to carry out this act.  They chose a
place where the people are completely defensless.  The Beaurocrats are
now adding fuel to the fire by removing all knives and, I can't believe
this, fingernail clippers.  

I've had a CCW for over 5 years now.  Only had to pull my weapon once. 
I don't believe we've had a single event where an individual killed
anyone in anger where the shooter had a permit.  We have to go through
some training on when/where etc

They even have the testimony of a few scumbag criminal types who stated
that they chose their victims on the basis of whether or not they could
be armed  

An armed person is a citizen, an unarmed person is a subject.  I prefer
to be a citizen. 

stayler

stayler

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Re: New York WTC

[Joel Hammer]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:45:56AM +0200, Olle Viksten wrote:
> onsdagen den 12 september 2001 00.21 wrote dep:
> > On Tuesday 11 September 2001 18:05, Joel Hammer wrote:
> > | Before someone becomes an apologist for the Muslims, name me a
> > | country where Muslims live in appreciable numbers where they do not
> > | cause violent disturbances.
> >
> > the united states. it's the fourth largest religion here, and there's
> > been very little trouble -- certainly nowhere near as much as from
> > other groups joined in a special interest of one sort or another.
> 
> Sweden also has a large muslim population, and no iolent disturbances from 
> them. Many are refuges from countries where muslim fanatics are in power. 

Sweden may be lucky. Check out the recent article about a foiled attempt by
by group of terrorists in England to nerve gas the European Parliament.
Maybe Sweden has gotten peace from them by turning a blind eye at their
international terrorist activities. Wouldn't be the first time for the Swedes.
Joel
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/16/wbin16.xml

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Re: WTC

[Auyeung at Technet Systems Consultant Ltd]

  - Original Message - 
  寄件者: Michael Scottaline 
  
  收件者: Auyeung at 
  Technet Systems Consultant Ltd 
  傳送日期: 2001年9月16日 PM 07:54
  主旨: Re: WTC
  
  On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:08 +0800"Auyeung at Technet Systems 
  Consultant Ltd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>insightfully 
  noted:AL> Mind sending it to me so I can show to some of my friends 
  in China?AL> AL> AuyeungAL>   - Original 
  Message - AL>   ???: Bruce Marshall 
  AL>   ???: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  AL>   ????: 2001?9?15? AM 02:17AL>   ??: WTC 
  See attached, Auyeung.  SO should play it 
  with no problem at all.  Or, ofcourse Powerpoint will play it as I 
  believe it is a ppt file.Mike-- Thanks, 
  Mike,
  Just let you know that there are Chinese citizens who 
  want to send their condolences to you fellow Americans
   
  Auyeung 

Re: WTC

[Lee]

Auyeung at Technet Systems Consultant Ltd wrote:

Mind
sending it to me so I can show to some of my friends in China? Auyeung

- Original
Message -

???:
Bruce Marshall

???: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

: 2001?9?15?
AM 02:17

??: WTC
 I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events
during the
attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone
would like me to
send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would
be
glad to pass it on.
StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE
apps.

>Comes in with GIMP just fine.

 
--
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 14:13 
+
++
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Re: WTC

[Michael Scottaline]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:08 +0800
"Auyeung at Technet Systems Consultant Ltd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
insightfully noted:

AL> Mind sending it to me so I can show to some of my friends in China?
AL> 
AL> Auyeung
AL>   - Original Message - 
AL>   ???: Bruce Marshall 
AL>   ???: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
AL>   ????: 2001?9?15? AM 02:17
AL>   ??: WTC 
AL> 
AL> 
AL>   I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
AL>   attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like
AL> me to 
AL>   send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I
AL> would be 
AL>   glad to pass it on.
AL> 
AL>   StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.
=
I must have recieced the same one from a former student of mine, now a C3C
at the air Force Academy.  I think it's a Powerpoint presentation, but
yes, SO plays it flawlessly!  I'm forwarding it to Auyeung.
Mike

-- 
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can search the stars with a telescope and not find God."
 -- J. Gustav White
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Re: WTC

[Auyeung at Technet Systems Consultant Ltd]

Mind sending it to me so I can show to some of my 
friends in China?
 
Auyeung

  - Original Message - 
  寄件者: Bruce Marshall 
  
  收件者: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  傳送日期: 2001年9月15日 AM 02:17
  主旨: WTC 
  I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many 
  events during the attack.  Most of the pictures are 
  excellent.   If anyone would like me to send it to you, or if 
  someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be glad to pass it 
  on.    StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't 
  know about other KDE apps.-- 
  +++ 
  Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, 
  MI 09/14/01 14:13  
  +++___http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]Archives, 
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Re: New York WTC

[Bill Campbell]

This just came in on another mailing list I manage, and I think
addresses many of these issues very well:

start of article
Subject: Seven Deadly Sins
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:24:34 -0400

Lord Mountbatten--"...For in the last resort, civilization stands or 
falls not by covenants, but by the sword..."

"The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your 
Sins" written by Paul Johnson (British journalist; former editor of the 
New Statesman)  The unedited version can be found in the New Republic, 
September 15, 1979, page 19-21. 

Most of you will recall that Mountbatten, (related to the Queen of 
England and was also a British Lord), was assassinated in a terrorist 
attack carriedout by the Provisional IRA.

---

"The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your 
Sins"  by Paul Johnson

(edited)

September 15, 1979

The wrong approach to terrorism is to see it as one of many symptoms of a 
deep-seated malaise in our society . . . . This analysis usually ends in 
the meaningless and defeatist conclusion that society itself is to blame: 
'We are all guilty.'

International terrorism is not part of a general human problem. It is a 
specific and identifiable problem on its own. . . . It is a remediable 
problem.  To say it is remediable is not to underestimate the size and 
danger of the problem. On the contrary: it is almost impossible to 
exaggerate the threat that terrorism poses for our civilization. . . . 
One reason why it constitutes such a grave and growing threat is that 
very few people in the civilized world--governments and parliaments, TV 
and newspapers, the public generally--take terrorism seriously enough.

Most people, lacking an adequate knowledge of history, tend to 
underestimate the fragility of a civilization.  They do not appreciate 
that civilizations fall as well as rise. . . . There was a common factor 
in all these great [falls].  They occurred when the spread of metals 
technology and the availability of raw materials enabled the forces of 
barbarism to equal or surpass the civilized powers in the quality and 
quantity of their weapons.  For in the last resort, civilization stands 
or falls not by covenants, but by the sword. . . .

Menacing improvements in terrorism have been brought about by the 
international availability of terrorist support, supply, and training 
services. Terrorism is no longer a purely national phenomenon, which can 
be destroyed at the national level. It is an international offensive--an 
open and declared war against civilization itself--which can only be 
defeated by an active alliance of the civilized powers. The impact 
ofterrorism . . . is intrinsically evil . . . for a number of . . . 
reasons--what I call the seven deadly sins of terrorism.

First - Terrorism is the deliberate and cold-blooded exaltation of 
violence over all forms of political activity. The modern terrorist 
employs violence not as a necessary evil, but as a desirable form of 
action.

The Second deadly sin is the deliberate suppression of the moral 
instincts in man. Terrorist organizers have found that it is not enough 
to give their recruits intellectual justifications for murder: indeed the 
abandonment of any system of moral criteria becomes an essential element 
in its training.  (Recruits are made to experience and participate in 
moral depravity like murder or rape because they cannot be expected to be 
an effective terrorist as long as they retain moral elements of a human 
personality.)

Third is the rejection of politics as the normal means by which 
communities resolve conflicts.  To terrorists, violence is a substitute 
for the entire political process.  [Which explains the difference between 
Bin Laden and Arafat and Sinn Fein, which used terrorism as a bargaining 
chip to gain themselves a place in the political process, but now that 
they are at the table, want to participate in the political process.]

The Fourth Deadly Sin is that it necessarily and actively assists the 
spread of the totalitarian state. Countries that finance and support 
terrorism are without exception despotic states. 

Fifth, international terrorism poses no threat to the totalitarian state. 
 That kind of state can always defend itself by judicial murder, 
preventive arrest, torture of prisoners and suspects, and complete 
censorship of terrorist activities.  Terrorism can only get a foothold in 
a state where the executive is under some kind of restraint, legal, 
democratic, and moral.

Sixth is that terrorism exploits the apparatus of freedom in liberal 
societies, and thereby endangers it.  In meeting the threat of terrorism, 
a free society must arm itself, but that process of arming itself 
threatens the freedoms, decencies and standards that make the society 
civilized, because of the emergency actions that must be taken. These 
actions may threaten those freedoms.

The Seventh deadly sin is that if a free society reacts

Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

Ian Marchak wrote:

> i.e.: Carbon Fiber I assume you are referring to?  Other than that there
> are no materials that I know of lighter than and stronger than steel.
> CF is amazingly strong when it comes to blunt forces and the like, but
> if someone grabs one of the fire axes that are std equip on all
> commercial pass. planes, they will make quick work of it.  Much like a
> kevlar vest won't do much good against an axe.
>

I bow to superior knowledge, I only flew in fighter jets sabre f86's

> Observing the passengers is the job of the fight attendants.  Every time
> you step on a plane, they are looking at you as you walk past, examining
> you for "uneasiness", "darting eyes", "excessive sweat" and the like.
> These hijackers knew what was going to happen, they knew what they were
> going to do, and I can almost guarantee that they were not calm, cool
> and collected.  If not nervous of dying, they were extremely nervous of
> failing and being found out.  If anyone should have noticed this
> behavior, it should have been the flight attendants.  The pilots' jobs
> are to fly the plane.  Most airlines if not all (it could be FAA rules),
> have the passengers board before the pilot, so in the event that a
> hijacker is noticed getting on the plane before takeoff, there are no
> pilots aboard to even get the hijacked plane in the air.

I would guess that after so many years maybe of staring at people and not getting
any signs back, other than whats expected, complacency sets in ??

> I am not arguing that your points, or the points of the reporter or
> whomever are wrong.  They are valid points, but are coming from the
> wrong direction.  We are trying to find what was wrong with the
> airports, what was wrong with the planes.  Nothing.  Absolutely
> nothing.  There was something wrong with the individuals who boarded the
> planes, hijacked the planes and turned them into explosive weapons.  We
> cannot expect the people of the United States, the people who
> manufacture planes and the people who design airports them to cover
> every eventuality of the actions of lunatics.

I am looking at the events and do blame in some respects the airports or more
souciently the airport security that does seem to have lapsed with time, little 
activity
and once again complacency. In that its going to happen somewhere else or to someone 
else
but not me.
I used to have a saying on my posts to the effect that its always the other fellow that
stops the bullet, but to the other fellow you are that person !! We tend to forget 
that.

The discussions at the moment are very invigorating and keep what is left of my brain
working, or sort of!

--
Keith Antoine aka "Skippy"
18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland, 4061, Australia PH: 61 7 33002161
Certified Professional Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall!!
Insensible phone computer assistance a speciality.


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Re: New York WTC

[Ian Marchak]

Keith Antoine wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:48, Ian Marchak orated thus:
> 
> > > Something was mooted on radio here today:
> > > Why aren't the bulkheads or doors to the cabin armour plated and locked
> > > so as noone can enter.
> >
> > The main argument used here (up to this point) is the weight of such a
> > bulkhead.  It may not seem like much in the overall scheme of things, 1
> > - 2 thousand pounds per aircraft to make the cockpit enclosure near
> > impenetrable.  However, carry that added weight out over a fleet of
> > aircraft and it would literally be millions yearly in added cost in the
> > fuel used to carry the extra weight.
> 
> I do not quite buy that argument insofar as there are now lightweight
> stronger than steel substitutes.

i.e.: Carbon Fiber I assume you are referring to?  Other than that there
are no materials that I know of lighter than and stronger than steel. 
CF is amazingly strong when it comes to blunt forces and the like, but
if someone grabs one of the fire axes that are std equip on all
commercial pass. planes, they will make quick work of it.  Much like a
kevlar vest won't do much good against an axe.

For practically every solution to this problem there is a way around
it.  I have been working in the aerospace industry for several years now
and can honestly say, that when there is a known better way of doing
things on aircraft, it's done that way.

> > > Why are there no suveillance cameras installed so as the pilots can see
> > > whats going on.
> >
> > That way the pilots watch what's happening in front of the
> > aircraft...not in the cabin.  A far better solution IMO would be air
> > Marshall's, although that is not without it's drawbacks...but that's
> > another debate. :)
> 
> Not to debate it but isn't flying an aircraft today lots easier and don't
> they have other crew other than just a pilot up front?

Actually, they have already removed the Flight Engineers from commercial
aircraft, his duties are now handled by the computers, co-pilot and
pilot.  (This is part of what was being debated after the AirTransat
emergency landing in Portugal a month or so back).

Observing the passengers is the job of the fight attendants.  Every time
you step on a plane, they are looking at you as you walk past, examining
you for "uneasiness", "darting eyes", "excessive sweat" and the like. 
These hijackers knew what was going to happen, they knew what they were
going to do, and I can almost guarantee that they were not calm, cool
and collected.  If not nervous of dying, they were extremely nervous of
failing and being found out.  If anyone should have noticed this
behavior, it should have been the flight attendants.  The pilots' jobs
are to fly the plane.  Most airlines if not all (it could be FAA rules),
have the passengers board before the pilot, so in the event that a
hijacker is noticed getting on the plane before takeoff, there are no
pilots aboard to even get the hijacked plane in the air.

> > > Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment
> > > so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to
> > > sleep till it could land with a sombulent cargo??
> >
> > Keep in mind, that the hijackers are often times, as we saw, willing to
> > die.  If this gas was released into the cabin, they would not fall
> > asleep instantly.  Although it sounds feasible, they would no doubt
> > start shooting people, windows, doors etc. and do everything in their
> > power to ensure that they are not taken alive.  A bullet hole at 450
> > knots and 35,000 feet soon makes a very serious problem.  You mentioned
> > in one other post, the "flying colander" theory. When at altitude and
> > pressurized, an aircraft is constantly exerting several hundred pounds
> > of explosive force on each square foot of it's pressure envelope.
> 
> Not that I am volunteering, but isn't just one or two lives better than waht
> we have seen. Yeah I know that just one life is sacroscant but I wonder if
> some would not have preferred that this last week. Maybe some did on that one
> that crashed in the woods.

Yes. Absolutely.  I agree 100%.

What I am saying is that we as continents, nations, as "western
civilization" must realize that the laws that govern the western world
are ultimately based on the christian beliefs and values of the people
who wrote those laws.  There are a vast many people in the world who
have no such values.  These are the terrorists, within and outside of
north america, these are the Dahmers, Bundys, Bernardos and Bin-Ladens. 
These people must be actively sought out and dealt with before they
kill, before they bomb, before they get on the plane.

I am not arguing that your points, or the points of the reporter or
whomever are wrong.  They are valid points, but are coming from the
wrong direction.  We are trying to find what was wrong with the
airports, what was wrong with the planes.  Nothing.  Absolutely
nothing.  There was something wrong with the indivi

Re: New York WTC

[Kurt Wall]

Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> Machiavelli pointed out that you last a lot longer of the people in a
> position to harm you fear you than if they love you.  Fear is often a
> stronger motivation than greed.

Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer. ;-)

Kurt
-- 
Love isn't only blind, it's also deaf, dumb, and stupid.
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Re: New York WTC

[Bill Campbell]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:30:51PM -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:
..
>
>Exactly.  One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be 
>liked by the world.  As long as what we do is correct and proper,  let the 
>world think what it wants.

Machiavelli pointed out that you last a lot longer of the people in a
position to harm you fear you than if they love you.  Fear is often a
stronger motivation than greed.

Bill
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doesn't know much.
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Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:48, Ian Marchak orated thus:

> > Something was mooted on radio here today:
> > Why aren't the bulkheads or doors to the cabin armour plated and locked
> > so as noone can enter.
>
> The main argument used here (up to this point) is the weight of such a
> bulkhead.  It may not seem like much in the overall scheme of things, 1
> - 2 thousand pounds per aircraft to make the cockpit enclosure near
> impenetrable.  However, carry that added weight out over a fleet of
> aircraft and it would literally be millions yearly in added cost in the
> fuel used to carry the extra weight.

I do not quite buy that argument insofar as there are now lightweight 
stronger than steel substitutes. 

> > Why are there no suveillance cameras installed so as the pilots can see
> > whats going on.
>
> That way the pilots watch what's happening in front of the
> aircraft...not in the cabin.  A far better solution IMO would be air
> Marshall's, although that is not without it's drawbacks...but that's
> another debate. :)

Not to debate it but isn't flying an aircraft today lots easier and don't 
they have other crew other than just a pilot up front?

> > Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment
> > so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to
> > sleep till it could land with a sombulent cargo??
>
> Keep in mind, that the hijackers are often times, as we saw, willing to
> die.  If this gas was released into the cabin, they would not fall
> asleep instantly.  Although it sounds feasible, they would no doubt
> start shooting people, windows, doors etc. and do everything in their
> power to ensure that they are not taken alive.  A bullet hole at 450
> knots and 35,000 feet soon makes a very serious problem.  You mentioned
> in one other post, the "flying colander" theory. When at altitude and
> pressurized, an aircraft is constantly exerting several hundred pounds
> of explosive force on each square foot of it's pressure envelope.

Not that I am volunteering, but isn't just one or two lives better than waht 
we have seen. Yeah I know that just one life is sacroscant but I wonder if 
some would not have preferred that this last week. Maybe some did on that one 
that crashed in the woods.

-- 
-
To make yourself look truthful one has to lie, as most people
do not want to kmow the truth; but only that which they believe.
-
Keith Antoine aka "skippy"
18 Arkana St The Gap Queensland 4061 Australia PH 16 7 33002161
Retired Geriatric and Sometime Electronics Engineer
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Re: New York WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Friday 14 September 2001 19:57 pm, dep wrote:
> | What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all.
> | It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking
> | snow-white and in shining armour.
>
> unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday
> possible.

Exactly.  One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be 
liked by the world.  As long as what we do is correct and proper,  let the 
world think what it wants.

-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 21:29  +
++
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion."
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Re: WTC

[Andrew Mathews]

JackM wrote:
> 
> I would be interested in receiving a copy.
> 
> Bruce Marshall wrote:
> >
> > I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> > attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> > send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> > glad to pass it on.


This is up at: http://www.linux-works.org/attack 
Thanks Bruce!
-- 
Andrew Mathews

  6:30pm  up 17:58,  3 users,  load average: 1.04, 1.08, 1.02

Chicken Little only has to be right once.
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Re: WTC

[JackM]

I would be interested in receiving a copy.

Bruce Marshall wrote:
> 
> I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> glad to pass it on.
> 
> StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.
> 
> --
> ++
> + Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 14:13  +
> ++
> 
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Re: New York WTC

[dep]

On Friday 14 September 2001 19:28, Keith Antoine wrote:

| What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all.
| It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking
| snow-white and in shining armour. 

unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday 
possible.
-- 
dep
 
if you want to find
the needle in a haystack,
burn the haystack.
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Re: New York WTC

[Ian Marchak]

Keith Antoine wrote:
> 
> Joel Hammer wrote:
> 
> > > those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily
> > > point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere
> > > in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem
> > > with considerably less loss of life.
> > > --
> > I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me.
> > Joel
> 
> Something was mooted on radio here today:
> Why aren't the bulkheads or doors to the cabin armour plated and locked
> so as noone can enter.

The main argument used here (up to this point) is the weight of such a
bulkhead.  It may not seem like much in the overall scheme of things, 1
- 2 thousand pounds per aircraft to make the cockpit enclosure near
impenetrable.  However, carry that added weight out over a fleet of
aircraft and it would literally be millions yearly in added cost in the
fuel used to carry the extra weight.

> Why are there no suveillance cameras installed so as the pilots can see
> whats going on.

That way the pilots watch what's happening in front of the
aircraft...not in the cabin.  A far better solution IMO would be air
Marshall's, although that is not without it's drawbacks...but that's
another debate. :)

> Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment
> so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to sleep till it 
>could land
> with a sombulent cargo??

Keep in mind, that the hijackers are often times, as we saw, willing to
die.  If this gas was released into the cabin, they would not fall
asleep instantly.  Although it sounds feasible, they would no doubt
start shooting people, windows, doors etc. and do everything in their
power to ensure that they are not taken alive.  A bullet hole at 450
knots and 35,000 feet soon makes a very serious problem.  You mentioned
in one other post, the "flying colander" theory. When at altitude and
pressurized, an aircraft is constantly exerting several hundred pounds
of explosive force on each square foot of it's pressure envelope.

I have a strong feeling that the real answer is that you and I, all of
us, are going to undergo far more scrutiny when traveling than we have
to this point.  In an attempt to keep hijackers and terrorists off of
airplanes in the first place.  Let's concentrate on treating the
sickness, not the symptoms don't you think?

My $.02 ... maybe $.03.
-- 
Linux SxS [http://hal.humberc.on.ca/~mrcn0031/sxs/]
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Re: New York WTC

[Keith Antoine]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:30, dep orated thus:
> On Friday 14 September 2001 11:19, Glenn Williams wrote:
> | I agree.  This seems to me the most sensible approach.
>
> yes. that's how bill "pinprick" clinton abolished terrorism from the
> face of the earth, thereby makinf sure that tuesday didn't happen.
>
> no, time is now to ignore our concerns about the countries that
> harbor terrorists and simply to eliminate those countries. which, by
> the way, we shall.

Mate,

It my considered opinion that one will never erradicate terrorism as long as 
there is one single human being alive. We as a group are our own worst enemy
and the worst enemy of this planet, possibly the universe. If we get off 
planet we will infect whereever we go.

It's similar to saying, as you are no doubt aware, that we eradicated polio 
and whooping cough. In the past 12 months these have raised their ugly heads 
once again in a more virulent capacity.

What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all. It is 
imperative that the US comes out of all this looking snow-white and in 
shining armour. Sheesh, I empathise with all the sentiment regarding 
retalitory measures, but I am sure that noone wants to look back in regret.
I am moved to say this with some of the sentiments expressed re the atomic 
bombs and Japan that have been expressed herein.

My friend, if you were to be the instrument of some of the totallity that you 
are expressing at the moment, I do understand it; I would be the first to 
stand at your side and defend you and your right. I would also be saddened
to think that eventually you would be remoresful at the innocents that also 
took your wrath. Would you be any better than those that perpatrated the act 
earlier this week.

BTW I have no idea exactly what the answer is, but radicalism of all colours 
must be made fearful of the consequences. I see criminals of many types as 
terrorists too, yet what they perpetrate is actually growing more criminal 
and we allow the courst to be lenient.

-- 
-
To make yourself look truthful one has to lie, as most people
do not want to kmow the truth; but only that which they believe.
-
Keith Antoine aka "skippy"
18 Arkana St The Gap Queensland 4061 Australia PH 16 7 33002161
Retired Geriatric and Sometime Electronics Engineer
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Re: WTC

[dep]

On Friday 14 September 2001 18:41, Bruce Marshall wrote:
| On Friday 14 September 2001 17:05 pm, dep wrote:
| > | How'd you get it so fast?    
| >
| > i'm here at the intersection of power and wisdom, and the express
| > bus stops at the corner.
|
| Oh,. right there by the flag pole... ok.

you got it.
-- 
dep
 
if you want to find
the needle in a haystack,
burn the haystack.
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Re: WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Friday 14 September 2001 17:05 pm, dep wrote:
> | How'd you get it so fast?    
>
> i'm here at the intersection of power and wisdom, and the express bus
> stops at the corner.

Oh,. right there by the flag pole... ok.


-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 18:40  +
++
"Can you repeat the part after, "Listen very carefully?"
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Re: WTC

[Jim Conner]

Please send it here as well.

Thanks,
Jim

On Friday September 14, 2001  1:17 pm, Bruce Marshall wrote:
> I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> glad to pass it on.
>
> StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.

-- 
 
  3:42pm  up 14 days, 22:42,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

Running Caldera eD2.4 - Linux - because life is too short for reboots...

_
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Re: WTC

[dep]

On Friday 14 September 2001 15:08, Bruce Marshall wrote:

| How'd you get it so fast?

i'm here at the intersection of power and wisdom, and the express bus 
stops at the corner.

-- 
dep
 
if you want to find
the needle in a haystack,
burn the haystack.
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Re: WTC

[Vern W Heesch]

On Friday 14 September 2001 12:01 pm, you wrote:
> On Friday 14 September 2001 14:36 pm, Vern W Heesch wrote:
> > I don't have S.O., but please send it to me. Thanks!!
>
> Ok, promise you'll attempt to use it with other KDE apps and if you get it
> to go, let us know.   It is in  .ppt (PowerPoint format)

I had no luck with it using kpresenter  :(
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Re: WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Friday 14 September 2001 14:58 pm, dep wrote:
> and it is wonderfully put together, chilling, heartbreaking.

How'd you get it so fast?

-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 15:08  +
++
"Gravity brings me down."
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Re: WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Friday 14 September 2001 14:36 pm, Vern W Heesch wrote:
> I don't have S.O., but please send it to me. Thanks!!

Ok, promise you'll attempt to use it with other KDE apps and if you get it to 
go, let us know.   It is in  .ppt (PowerPoint format)


-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 15:00  +
++
"If you get up early, work late, and pay your taxes, you will get
ahead--  if you strike oil."
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Re: WTC

[dep]

On Friday 14 September 2001 14:33, Bruce Marshall wrote:

| On it's way.   It is in .ppt(PowerPoint)

and it is wonderfully put together, chilling, heartbreaking.

-- 
dep
 
if you want to find
the needle in a haystack,
burn the haystack.
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Re: WTC

[Vern W Heesch]

I don't have S.O., but please send it to me. Thanks!!

On Friday 14 September 2001 11:17 am, you wrote:
> I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> glad to pass it on.
>
> StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.
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Re: WTC

[Bruce Marshall]

On Friday 14 September 2001 14:23 pm, Douglas J. Hunley wrote:
> On Friday 14 September 2001 14:17, Bruce Marshall babbled:
> > I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> > attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> > send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> > glad to pass it on.
> >
> > StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.
>
> what format is it? If the pictures themselves can be extracted, bounce it
> to my email addy..

On it's way.   It is in .ppt(PowerPoint)


-- 
++
+ Bruce S. Marshall  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 14:33  +
++
"If I could drop dead right now, I'd be the happiest man alive." - Samuel
  Goldwyn
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Re: WTC

[Douglas J. Hunley]

On Friday 14 September 2001 14:17, Bruce Marshall babbled:
> I have received a  40+  picture slide show of many events during the
> attack.  Most of the pictures are excellent.   If anyone would like me to
> send it to you, or if someone wants to put it on an ftp site, I would be
> glad to pass it on.
>
> StarOffice will show it just fine.  Don't know about other KDE apps.

what format is it? If the pictures themselves can be extracted, bounce it to 
my email addy..
-- 
Douglas J. Hunley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Linux User #174778 
Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net/Admin: http://linux.nf/ 
Brainbench Linux Administration Certified

~~ Now offering Linux admin services for the home user ~~

Thank you. before I begin, I'd like everyone to notice that my report is in
a professional, clear plastic binder...When a report looks this good, you know
it'll get an A. That's a tip kids. Write it down. -- Calvin
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Re: New York WTC

[Lee]

Bill Campbell wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:04:53AM -0500, Stuart Biggerstaff wrote:
> >Apparently you never can be too intolerant...
> >
> >>

>Snip
It's amazing! These two Christian bigots have made millions pushing the message of a 
man who
never had a sheckel he didn't give away. Part of his message was that it is easier for 
a camel
to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Maybe they 
should
spend a little more of their time spreading their wealth around rather than spreading 
hate.


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