Re: High speed beer
* Chris Heathcote ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Can anyone remember the trial of lager served below freezing? The glass was sprayed with water and rotated, and the beer was served below freezing under pressure. Ultrasound was used to stop it from freezing completely, but the beer did have ice crystals in. Can't find a link. Bah. I remember it being about 4 quid a pint in Richmond... Yip, I believe the last time we had a meeting in penderels oak they had this on trial, unfortunatly they choose a fairly shit lager to do it with so while having it that cold was good it still didn't inspire you to have more. And before one of you beardy weirdy, raving CAMRA 'old guzzlers drollop beer is especially fine due to the authentic gerbil droppings' lunatics chirp in, you can get good lager, you just have to go to Germany to get it. ;-) Greg -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/ jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED] msn://[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: perl and marketing
* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: Does Perl need better PR? To what goal? Not having to justify the design decision of using Perl from first principles everytime in environments that do not currently use Perl. Greg -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/ jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED] msn://[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Exporting Symbols
Nigel Rantor wrote: The reasoning is not so that the namespace doesn't get polluted. His argument is regarding space efficiency. That might matter in an Apache::Registry environment. Each Apache::Registry script is compiled in its own namespace ; importing symbols takes space (not so much, though) in the namespace's smybol table ; mod_perl careful programming guidelines recommend to spare space.
Re: [RFC] arbitary maths evaluation
Nicholas Clark wrote: On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 11:13:53AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: I think the potential for me to mess up with Safe is too great, Safe has bugs. You don't need to mess up - it's already done for you. Safe isn't. More precisely there are quite a lot of opcodes that aren't caught by Safe as of 5.8.0. For example, IIRC, regular expression matches. 5.8.1 will fix this -- but still not for *all* opcodes. As this is a core bug, that can't be fixed by a CPAN upgrade. Moreover you can still do annoying things with innocent-looking opcodes. Enumerating 1..1_000_000 for example... (mmm. that sounds like FUD. Hopefully someone (Rafael? Arthur?) can fill in the details)
HoH Lesson previous IPC::Shareable post
Hello everyone...
I think need a lesson on declaring a HoH. It seems that in the
code..
my %polled;
tie %polled, 'IPC::Shareable', mykey;
while($dstIP = $sth1-fetchrow())
{
$polled{$dstIP}{dispatched} = time();
$polled{$dstIP}{response} = 0;
$polled{$dstIP}{num_polls} = 1;
$polled{$dstIP}{action} = 0;
}
.. I am creating a new semaphore on each iteration of the loop. As I
only have a maximum of 10 set on the system (solaris 2.8), I am running
out of semaphores on the 10th pass. I can increase the max number of
semaphores, but this doesn't solve the problem.
I believe I am creating a new hash on each iteration of the loop, thus
asking the system (via 'tie') for more shared memory and another
semaphore to control it.
Would someone be so kind and tell me how to declare the HoH correctly so
I only create one hash array and not many!!
At least that's where I think the problem is :-/
Thanks
Andy
Re: IPC::Shareable: Could not create semaphore set
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:45:27PM -0400, Andy Ford said: Glad to hear you got it fixed. soliloquy++ :) It could be a new Warnock-esque dilemma. Good to see you getting it fixed though - I always find it fascinating to watch other people's thought processes. Simon
Re: High speed beer
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:07:14AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: And before one of you beardy weirdy, raving CAMRA 'old guzzlers drollop beer is especially fine due to the authentic gerbil droppings' lunatics chirp in, you can get good lager, you just have to go to Germany to get it. ;-) or Belgium. -- Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002
Re: Exporting Symbols
His rationale for not exporting symbols is because it 'eats up a lot of memory'. Then it's a false rationale. When you export globs[0] it's only a shallow copy - so the new glob is created in the symbol table, but all the glob slots remain in the same location e.g shell perl -l - $foo::bar = a string; *bar = *foo::bar; print $bar; $foo::bar = a new string; print $bar; print \$foo::bar; print \$bar; __output__ a string a new string SCALAR(0x1012f6cc) SCALAR(0x1012f6cc) So as you can guess this just isn't memory hungry, so the reasoning for not exporting globs shouldn't be because of the memory. Now namespace pollution is another thing, but I reckon if your subs are relatively unique then it's not much of an issue, but then again it's not much of an issue to fully qualify the subs (assuming they're in their own namespace). Cheers, Dan [0] which is how symbols are often referred to as
Re: High speed beer
And before one of you beardy weirdy, raving CAMRA 'old guzzlers drollop beer is especially fine due to the authentic gerbil droppings' lunatics chirp in, you can get good lager, you just have to go to Germany to get it. ;-) or Belgium. or the US. oh wait, no they serve beer-o-lade (to the extent that my g/f said ooh that's really nice, not at all like beer).
Re: perl and marketing
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:36:28AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote: You might really say that this is a problem of Open Source as a whole. Its marketing really sucks. Double plus for Free Software. Sell the benefit - not the technology. So how does that apply to perl? what could anyone do differently now which hasn't been done over the last five years? Does that apply to _anything_? I'm not sure it sells cars. Apart from a passing nod to safety, independent traction control, four-wheel drive etc. is all sold on the basis of 'cool'. PCs - they sell on the basis of GHz, Gbs, etc. Bigger, faster, cooler. I can't really think of anything which sells on actual benefits (apart from in an indirect manner - this CPU goes faster, so get your processing done faster - which isn't really true anyway). Sell the technology I say ;) Cheers, Alex.
Re: perl and marketing
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:45:37AM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:36:28AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote: You might really say that this is a problem of Open Source as a whole. Its marketing really sucks. Double plus for Free Software. Sell the benefit - not the technology. So how does that apply to perl? what could anyone do differently now which hasn't been done over the last five years? Does that apply to _anything_? I'm not sure it sells cars. Apart from a passing nod to safety, independent traction control, four-wheel drive etc. is all sold on the basis of 'cool'. PCs - they sell on the basis of GHz, Gbs, etc. Bigger, faster, cooler. I can't really think of anything which sells on actual benefits (apart from in an indirect manner - this CPU goes faster, so get your processing done faster - which isn't really true anyway). This will save you money and reduce your hardware expenditure due to increased efficiency. Now why does that sound so much like a Dilbert quote? Sell the technology I say ;) Sell the children, I say. Alex. /joel
Re: High speed beer
Paul Makepeace wrote: ``The technology will enable bar staff to pour ten pints in less than a minute'' Waiting for a beer at the bar could soon be a thing of the past... Yeah right. This device will allow the pubs to employ half as many staff to do twice as much work. We'll still be left waiting for a beer. A
Re: what are you doing
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 01:35:42AM -0400, Tara L Andrews wrote: p.s. No, I have no real idea what I'll do with a master's in Byzantine history. Analyse massive over-complex legacy applications written in COBOL? Oh. Not that sort of Byzantine. :-) Nicholas Clark
Re: what are you doing
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 01:35:42AM -0400, Tara L Andrews wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 12:41:49PM +0100, Michael Stevens wrote: What are people doing outside Perl/IT these days? Have you got a job outside IT because there's no IT work? Or are you learning something outside IT / planning to do something like this? What a perfect excuse for introducing myself. Hi, I'm Tara, I have heard all sorts of scandalous and suggestive things about this group from people like Jesse Vincent (and probably others.) I graduated from MIT with a joint CS/history degree, knowing full well that no matter what my degree said I'd find employment in IT. Sure enough, I was a perl monkey at Akamai from shortly after graduation until last October, when I got laid off. I have since been re-hired as a contractor, but in the meantime I thought to myself Well, if IT isn't paying me anymore, I may as well do something fun and interesting with the other half of my degree. So I'm moving over to that side of the Atlantic in a few weeks to get a master's degree in Byzantine history at Oxford. I hope to meet many of you soon. -tara p.s. No, I have no real idea what I'll do with a master's in Byzantine history. I am hoping that either the job market will have quit sucking, or that something appropriate will present itself. You'll say to prospective employers I have a bachelor's degree from MIT and did my post-graduate work at Oxford and they will metaphorically move you to the head of the pile. Well, it'll help, anyway. Just my opinion, of course. /joel
SVG::Graph..
Hi Folks, Quick question.. we've developed a very nice Template Toolkit template for generating SVG graphs (just line at the moment). I've had a look some CPAN and seen SVGGraph and SVGGraph::Pie, neither of which is as configurable as ours Long term I see us creating SVG::Graph - general base module SVG::Graph::Bar - specific template SVG::Graph::Line - Got working now - specific template SVG::Graph::Pie - specific template So what's the question - well am I stepping on anyone's toes, are we reinventing the wheel - is there anything anything else I should check before starting :) ? Cheers Leo
[OT] SQL woes (Peter Sergeant)
Subject: [OT] SQL woes It's at times like this I realise my SQL skills only cover the basics... Mine too, but the problem could be that the '_' character in MySQL represents a single character wildcard, so it might be necessary to enclose your table and column names in backticks. I have two tables, 'user' and 'users_names'. I'm looking to deprecate 'users_names', so I've altered 'user' to now contain a 'user_realname' column. Both tables have a column 'user_id', which correspond to each other. I'd like to take the data from 'users_names.name' and put it into 'user.user_realname' where the 'user_id' column match. I just can't seem to find the SQL to make MySQL do this. Any ideas? hth, d.
Re: Exporting Symbols
Rafael Garcia-Suarez wrote: Nigel Rantor wrote: The reasoning is not so that the namespace doesn't get polluted. His argument is regarding space efficiency. That might matter in an Apache::Registry environment. Each Apache::Registry script is compiled in its own namespace ; importing symbols takes space (not so much, though) in the namespace's smybol table ; mod_perl careful programming guidelines recommend to spare space. Not an issue in this case. Nothing to do with mod_perl, not even a server-process, it's for an interactive program. N
Re: High speed beer
Lusercop wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:07:14AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: And before one of you beardy weirdy, raving CAMRA 'old guzzlers drollop beer is especially fine due to the authentic gerbil droppings' lunatics chirp in, you can get good lager, you just have to go to Germany to get it. ;-) or Belgium. I think I prefer Dutch to so-called Belgian. Slovakia has very nice pilseners, and some fine dunkels. -- David Cantrell | Reprobate | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david When a woman has a man on a string, controlling his every thought and motion, backbone in said man is not a requirement. -- Ken, in alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove
Re: Bra
On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 04:42 pm, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Nicholas Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *This counts as art rather than debauchery? On the basis that debauchery *is frowned on at social meetings? * *Anyway, this seems unlikely, given Leon's previous insistence that he *won't be wearing it. Gads, given the choice, I'd almost rather have photos of you all wearing it on your head Animal House style just to get it over with :) It'd be a fitting addition to the toilet seat around the neck series Come now, who would be silly enough to do something like that? -Steve
RE: :Graph..
Long term I see us creating SVG::Graph- general base module SVG::Graph::Bar - specific template SVG::Graph::Line - Got working now - specific template SVG::Graph::Pie - specific template Perhaps you could append ::TT or similar to the end, to allow for the possiblity of other modules that do the same thing, but using a different (Burn the heretic! Burn the heretic!) templating system? Then SVG::Graph and friends could just be factories that return objects of the appropriate type. N -- 11 2 3 4 5 6 77 0 0 0 0 0 0 05 -- The 75 column-ometer Global Messaging, A: Top posting 120 Cheapside, x83331 Q: What's the most annoying e-mail habit?
Re: Exporting Symbols
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:34:39 +0100, Nigel Rantor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rafael Garcia-Suarez wrote: Nigel Rantor wrote: The reasoning is not so that the namespace doesn't get polluted. His argument is regarding space efficiency. That might matter in an Apache::Registry environment. Each Apache::Registry script is compiled in its own namespace ; importing symbols takes space (not so much, though) in the namespace's smybol table ; mod_perl careful programming guidelines recommend to spare space. Not an issue in this case. Nothing to do with mod_perl, not even a server-process, it's for an interactive program. This is an excellent oppurtunity for you to release a CPAN module of your own, which simply imports all his code using: *foo = \Module::foo; And exports it normally using Exporter. It's probably the easiest way of getting things working. You might even convince the author to include it in the main distribution... -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: SVG::Graph..
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 11:43:31AM +0100, Clayton, Nik [IT] wrote: Perhaps you could append ::TT or similar to the end, to allow for the possiblity of other modules that do the same thing, but using a different (Burn the heretic! Burn the heretic!) templating system? Then SVG::Graph and friends could just be factories that return objects of the appropriate type. I see what your saying, but it'd be a lot of effort to use a different templating system just for the sheer hell of it, SVG::Graph just sets up an object to hold the config and data, the cleaver stuff is actually in the TT. I did think that someone might want to do this nativly with the SVG.pm module... hmm.. so.. SVG::Graph - Gather data SVG::Graph::TT - Burner SVG::Graph::TT::Line - Template Then is someone wants they can do.. SVG::Graph::XX - Burner SVG::Graph::XX::Line - Template or some such. Is there anything wrong with having SVG::Graph::TT::Line contain the template under __DATA__ ? - or is there some other way that templates used by modules should be done ? Cheers for the help. Leo
Re: perl and marketing
Joel Bernstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *Sell the children, I say. Well, you know.years ago I suggested that there be a series of Perl for kids cartoons with jingles in the vein of School House Rock [ www.schoolhouserock.com ] which were educational cartoons shown on saturday mornings with the regular cartoons. 30 years later I can still remember every lyric and every tune [ listen to some of the clips and you'll understand...even Jarkko found lolly,lolly,lolly... to be viciously addictive. Someday someone might even take my idea seriously :) Like Mr. Peabody teaches fork()... http://www.geeksalad.org/odds/fork/all.shtml Press releases are uninteresing and dull, dull, dulldo something interesting and they will come :) e.
Re: Exporting Symbols
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 12:24:00AM +0100, Nigel Rantor wrote: Yes, I understand this. In this case though he's not even saying 'create tag sets that can be imported by the module user' he's just saying it takes up space so you have to use fully qualified package/sub names to call subs instead. Even POSIX, probably one of the bloatiest exporters out there, doesn't seem to use that much memory for its export structures. (as reported by Devel::Size - I'm aware that Ilya Z has sent messages to p5p implying that it does) I see: $ perl -MDevel::Size=total_size -wle 'use POSIX; print total_size [EMAIL PROTECTED]::EXPORT' 22680 $ perl -MDevel::Size=total_size -wle 'use POSIX; print total_size [EMAIL PROTECTED]::EXPORT_OK' 1943 $ perl -MDevel::Size=total_size -wle 'use POSIX; print total_size \%POSIX::EXPORT_TAGS' 23686 (for 5.8.0) Nicholas Clark
Re: Exporting Symbols
Dominic Mitchell wrote: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:34:39 +0100, Nigel Rantor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an excellent oppurtunity for you to release a CPAN module of your own, which simply imports all his code using: *foo = \Module::foo; And exports it normally using Exporter. It's probably the easiest way of getting things working. You might even convince the author to include it in the main distribution... Obviously this appeals to some part of me but I would much rather work with him and provide some decent arguments for it rather than simply asserting something to be true or treating the author as an obstacle to be overcome. Two points of view that seem rather common. N
Re: SVG::Graph..
Leo Lapworth wrote: I see what your saying, but it'd be a lot of effort to use a different templating system just for the sheer hell of it, SVG::Graph just sets up an object to hold the config and data, the cleaver stuff is actually in the TT. I did think that someone might want to do this nativly with the SVG.pm module... hmm.. so.. Thing is, it's quite likely that a number of us won't want to use any templating language, but might want to insert the graphing bit in the middle of a processing pipeline, having things like DOM or SAX on either side. Making TT just one of the possible backends is nicer. I'm not sure I'd count SVG.pm as native, it's just One Way To Do It. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: perl and marketing
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 06:09:31AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Well, you know.years ago I suggested that there be a series of Perl for kids cartoons with jingles in the vein of School House Rock [ www.schoolhouserock.com ] which were educational cartoons shown on saturday mornings with the regular cartoons. 30 years later I can still remember every lyric and every tune [ listen to some of the clips and you'll understand...even Jarkko found lolly,lolly,lolly... to be viciously addictive. Someday someone might even take my idea seriously :) To this day I cannot recite the preamble to the US constitution without singing it. I remember being in school wishing they had done the Gettysburg address too, since I had to memorize both in the same grading period in school. Too bad that not all of the songs they added for the DVD were up to the same quality. I still wish I had the parody from the Simpsons about how a constitutional amendment is passed. -- mike
Re: Exporting Symbols
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:43:10 +0100, Nigel Rantor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dominic Mitchell wrote: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:34:39 +0100, Nigel Rantor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an excellent oppurtunity for you to release a CPAN module of your own, which simply imports all his code using: *foo = \Module::foo; And exports it normally using Exporter. It's probably the easiest way of getting things working. You might even convince the author to include it in the main distribution... Obviously this appeals to some part of me but I would much rather work with him and provide some decent arguments for it rather than simply asserting something to be true or treating the author as an obstacle to be overcome. Two points of view that seem rather common. Well, you could write it, propose it to him and point out that if he includes it, it'll make life easier for those users who /do/ want things to work that way, whilst not being an issue for those who don't. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
IRC Server/Channel
Which is the best perl IRC Server/Channel to use!? Thanks Andy
Re: IRC Server/Channel
Which is the best perl IRC Server/Channel to use!? EFNet/#perl !? -- If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -- Henry David Thoreau
Re: SVG::Graph..
Leo Lapworth wrote: I see what your saying, but it'd be a lot of effort to use a different templating system just for the sheer hell of it, There's a better reason than the sheer hell of it - separation of concerns. If your modules are tied down to one particular template engine then it suggests that you haven't got a clear separation between application and presentation. If possible, put all the presentation independant code in one module, say SVG::Graph. Think of this as your model. It defines the data for a particular graph and should provide methods to access and/or manipulate the data. Then write a module which defines a sensible API for creating SVG::Graph objects. Say, SVG::Graph::Reader, SVG::Graph::Factory, SVG::Graph::Controller, or something like that. Then write another module which defines a sensible API for presenting SVG::Graph objects. SVG::Graph::Writer, SVG::Graph::Presenter or maybe SVG::Graph::View. Then subclass your controller and presenter modules accordingly. In other words, if you design your system so that any template engine (within reason) can be bolted on, then the chances are that you will have designed a clearly separated system that will be easier for you and other people to use and extend. You have separated the internal representation of the graph from any particular external representation. This is of course related to Design Pattern #0 (IPO): INPUT - PROCESSING - OUTPUT Pretty much every program ever written conforms to this design pattern. It should be one of the first things you think about when designing a software architecture. Obvious, I know, but often overlooked. A
Re: IRC Server/Channel
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 01:14:50PM +0100, Andy Ford wrote: Which is the best perl IRC Server/Channel to use!? http://london.pm.org/join/ Join the IRC channel irc.perl.org:6667 #London.pm - you'll need an irc client, a piece of string and one of those washing up liquid bottles. Leo
Re: IRC Server/Channel
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 01:14:50PM +0100, Andy Ford wrote: Which is the best perl IRC Server/Channel to use!? Rhizomatic is the perl-mongers network, and there's a clueful #perl and a #london.pm on there. In fact, irc.london.pm.org should point to the london rhizomatic server, or did last I checked. Andy /joel
Re: perl and marketing
On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 01:00 pm, Mike Jarvis wrote:
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 06:09:31AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
Well, you know.years ago I suggested that there be a series of
Perl
for kids cartoons with jingles in the vein of School House Rock [
www.schoolhouserock.com ] which were educational cartoons shown on
saturday mornings with the regular cartoons. 30 years later I can
still
remember every lyric and every tune [ listen to some of the clips and
you'll understand...even Jarkko found lolly,lolly,lolly... to be
viciously addictive. Someday someone might even take my idea
seriously :)
To this day I cannot recite the preamble to the US constitution
without singing it. I remember being in school wishing they had done
the Gettysburg address too, since I had to memorize both in the same
grading period in school.
Hell, you guys have hit gold here!
So we all quit our day-jobs and infiltrate the primary schools where we
can influence the fresh minds of young children! Start the day with
Larry's prayer... Teach them Maths by way of the scalar (and Math::*,
of course). Then an English lesson in a Perlish way:
my Dog $spot;
see( $spot-run );
pet $spot if $spot-can( 'roll_over' );
And hoo-boy, Music class would be such fun with great songs like:
foreach $little_piggy (in( our @pig_pen )) {
roast $little_piggy;
eat $little_piggy;
isnt( $little_piggy, GOOD, 'yum yum!' );
}
That should put us on par with the American constitution. The
unfortunate side-effect is that this new breed of coder might not
shut-up while coding. (but hey, that's what headphones are for, no?)
Of course, not everybody will be able to join the schools because we'll
need some torch bearers to carry the flame for the next 10 years or so
until the kids are old enough to sign contracts...
But fear not, there's still work to do! As Elaine rightly suggests, we
need to infiltrate the Cartoon industry too! We'll get Barney teaching
pre-schoolers Perl, and the tele-tubbies with random CPAN-module
listings on their tummies! The power-puff girls fighting crime with
powerbooks leaving a coloured trail of sigils wherever they go, and I'm
sure we could twist 'Pikachu' into 'Perl4you' or something. As for
Dexter's Lab? Well, the writers aren't far-off the mark anyway, I'm
sure it won't take much convincing.
The greatest thing about all this targeted marketing will be the
side-effects - kids asking their parents if they can code Perl. You
know, the pressure that marketing puts on parents is phenomenal...
we'll have them coding Perl in no time!
-Steve
Re: IRC Server/Channel
In fact, irc.london.pm.org should point to the london rhizomatic server, or did last I checked. Try: /motd grou.ch When connected. Gives you some useful info about hosts. +Pete
SVG::Graph..
Leo wrote: Hi Folks, Quick question.. we've developed a very nice Template Toolkit template for generating SVG graphs (just line at the moment). I've had a look some CPAN and seen SVGGraph and SVGGraph::Pie, neither of which is as configurable as ours Long term I see us creating SVG::Graph- general base module SVG::Graph::Bar - specific template SVG::Graph::Line - Got working now - specific template SVG::Graph::Pie - specific template So what's the question - well am I stepping on anyone's toes, are we reinventing the wheel - is there anything anything else I should check before starting :) ? Cheers Leo Hi Leo, I'm not sure what the internals of the SVG::Graph::* modules are going to be. Are you using the SVG module in your TT implementation (which is Dom-based)? If you are basing your modules on SVG.om, and if it is a major part of your implementation, then it is certainly appropriate to use the name space. But if you are primarily using TT-based processing, I would suggest that a better name space would be Template::SVG::Graph or Template::Graph::SVG. If you are building a specialized implementation of TT, my opinion is that you may want to keep within the related name space, so that someone who wants to implement a DOM-style Graph module based on the SVG.pm module can so so with SVG::Graph. PS have you looked at the SVG::* modules - such as SVG::Plot (for line graphs) by Jo Walsh and Kate Pugh? http://search.cpan.org/author/ZOOLEIKA/SVG-Plot-0.05/Plot.pm Cheers, Ronan
Re: perl and marketing
Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *The greatest thing about all this targeted marketing will be the *side-effects - kids asking their parents if they can code Perl. You *know, the pressure that marketing puts on parents is phenomenal... *we'll have them coding Perl in no time! You laugh...but I'll bet since you're a gen-X-er that you can rattle off at least 10 commercial jingles from your childhood :) Read http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375407502/ and laugh no more :) Marketing to children certainly isn't new. Get 'em hooked while they're young and before they've turned into language zealots. e.
Re: perl and marketing
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:09:48AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: Does Perl need better PR? To what goal? Not having to justify the design decision of using Perl from first principles everytime in environments that do not currently use Perl. I think that's too broad a goal. The target audience is too wide, and have too many reasons to not use Perl to make this a viable target. Tony
Re: perl and marketing
On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 02:30 pm, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *The greatest thing about all this targeted marketing will be the *side-effects - kids asking their parents if they can code Perl. You *know, the pressure that marketing puts on parents is phenomenal... *we'll have them coding Perl in no time! You laugh...but I'll bet since you're a gen-X-er that you can rattle off at least 10 commercial jingles from your childhood :) I laughed and cringed while writing that.. I'm a few years short of gen-X, but you're absolutely right - I can remember the commercial jingles. And I know that's the way marketing works... increase demand for something by painting pretty pictures in peoples heads about why they need it. Cartoons are entertainment.. kids need to be entertained... Perl needs to be sold. It kinda disgusts and impresses me at the same time. I guess it's the truth in it that makes it funny. Read http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375407502/ and laugh no more :) Looks interesting.. -Steve
[Extra Credit] : Re: Extending Other Packages
NR ... there are three or four different sub-sets of functionality NR ...sub-sets are completely seperable... NR ...pull in one or two of the sub-sets... NR ...allowing other people to still sub-class Base use a Decorator (aka wrapper) http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DecoratorPattern to add functionality, add another wrapper.
Re: Extending Other Packages
NR So, I want to extend an OO package. That's probably the wrong solution. A good rule of thumb is 'always prefer object composition over inheritance'. If you can't think of a good reason to extend a class, don't. The ability within Perl to change the logic of an existing method in a class, or add methods to a class, is just another form of inheritance. NR ... Okay. Also, this isn't really a question about OO purism so NR if you want to rant about it please don't feel obliged to. OO is just a technique that helps you represent real-world problems more easily. I don't really know what you mean by OO purism, but you should look at you problem and decide what type of relationship you are trying to represent: 1. 'This NewThing is-an ExistingThing' (inheritance) or 2. 'This NewThing has-an ExistingThing' (composition) If you can't decided which relationship is appropriate, choose 'has-a' (composition). --Nigel
re: SVG::Graph..
Hi Leo, I'm not sure what the internals of the SVG::Graph::* modules are going to be. Are you using the SVG module in your TT implementation (which is Dom-based)? If you are, and if it is a major part of your implementation, then I think that it is appropriate. But if you are primarily using TT-based processing, I would suggest that a better name space would be Template::SVG::Graph or Template::Graph::SVG. If you are building a specialized implementation of TT, my opinion is that you may want to keep within the related name space, so that someone who wants to implement a DOM-style Graph module based on the SVG.pm module can so so with SVG::Graph. PS have you looked at the SVG::* modules - such as SVG::Plot (for line graphs) by Jo Walsh and Kate Pugh? http://search.cpan.org/author/ZOOLEIKA/SVG-Plot-0.05/Plot.pm Cheers, Ronan SVG.pm --- Original message: SVG::Graph.. Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 18 11:15:02 2003 Previous message: what are you doing Next message: [OT] SQL woes (Peter Sergeant) Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Folks, Quick question.. we've developed a very nice Template Toolkit template for generating SVG graphs (just line at the moment). I've had a look some CPAN and seen SVGGraph and SVGGraph::Pie, neither of which is as configurable as ours Long term I see us creating SVG::Graph - general base module SVG::Graph::Bar - specific template SVG::Graph::Line - Got working now - specific template SVG::Graph::Pie - specific template So what's the question - well am I stepping on anyone's toes, are we reinventing the wheel - is there anything anything else I should check before starting :) ? Cheers Leo
[JOB] Perl / mod_perl / DBI developer (Linux). Based at centralLondon office. Required asap
The application is an existing (working prototype) web-based campaign marketing tool which among other things processes both outbound and inbound email and text messages. Principal requirements: you will be need to become conversant with the existing Perl / mod_perl / DBI code and overall approach, bring some aspects of the coding (e.g. module structures, object method approaches) up to professional standard (it was and is a working prototype), add two new system features to quite precise requirements, and / or other similar work if required. You will be working under the direction of the original developer who will provide guidance and specific tasks throughout. This 3 month post is on-site at our central London office. No international / teleworking possible (although a percentage of working from home may be allowed over the time period). Required skills: (need to be strong on all of these) Perl, Apache, mod_perl, Template::Toolkit, DBI, DB transaction coding (ie commit / rollback), PostgreSQL, knowledge of Postfix and simple Procmail (no complex recipies required in Procmail), general appreciation and knowledge of Linux performance tuning. Desired skills: experience of interfacing with professional SMS gateways in both directions. Appreciation of web-based user interface design. Technical documentation skills. Terms of employment: independent contractor, project based, full-time Duration: 3 months maximum Rate: 3,000 GBP per month Location: on-site, central London office (near Euston Station) Contact: please reply to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] as soon as possible with your CV, or any general queries. Please contact within 48 hours of this posting as we may need to seek alternative routes if we have not sourced a developer in this timescale. Cheers Kirk. -- Kirk Bowe Director of Software vice versa limited Registered in England and Wales 04500813 for vice-versa technical support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bizarre DBI error
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 10:15:22PM +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote: I'm seeing an error where an -execute fails but no errstr or state is set, and then upon immediate retry succeeds. The only times I have seen a similar issue is when then $sth was generated pre-fork on apache using mutli-threaded. The sequence would be :- Process A executes SQL Process B executes SQL Process A fetches data Process B has no data to fetch but does not error Hope it helps Paddy
Re: Bizarre DBI error
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 05:47:29PM +0100, Patrick Mulvany wrote: On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 10:15:22PM +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote: I'm seeing an error where an -execute fails but no errstr or state is set, and then upon immediate retry succeeds. The only times I have seen a similar issue is when then $sth was generated pre-fork on apache using mutli-threaded. The sequence would be :- Process A executes SQL Process B executes SQL It appears from the error I posted it's actually the execute() that is failing, not the fetch(). Does that tally with anything you've seen? I'm doing nothing more fancy than creating a dbh at use; time, prepare()ing a few sths and then in a sub called from the handler execute() fetchrow_blah() on them when I want some data. Cheers, Paul Process A fetches data Process B has no data to fetch but does not error Hope it helps Paddy -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ If I wasn't awake, then blow it up! -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: SVG::Graph..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But if you are primarily using TT-based processing, I would suggest that a better name space would be Template::SVG::Graph or Template::Graph::SVG. That would not be such a good idea. At least not without careful consultation with the author of the Template Toolkit. Template::Plugin::* is the safe namespace for plugin modules. For TT specific applications or web applications I would suggest Template::App::* or Template::WebApp::*, but even then they might be incompatible with a future Template::App or Template::WebApp base class that may (or may not) get added to TT3. At present the Template::* namespace is effectively reserved[*] for the Template Toolkit. I plan to change that in version 3 to allow it to be opened up for other templating modules. However, that will take careful planning to avoid trampling on existing Template::* modules. If you want to go this route then email me off list and I'll commit to a particular Template::* namespace for this purpose. But I think in this case, a non-TT specific version of SVG::Graph would be better. A
384(!) readers on London.pm
Those curious about London.pm mailing list membership,
# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/london.pm/config.db |
perl -lne 'next unless /user_options.: \{/../\},$/; /: (\d+).?,$/; $m++;
$nm++ if $11; END { print members: $m (nomail: $nm) }'
members: 488 (nomail: 104)
Of which another four or so hard-to-reach addresses that mailman is
about to nomail. MUHAHAHA.
Paul, still somewhat excited by have a usable postmaster address finally
--
Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/
What is a kipper? Morton's Fork.
-- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: IPC::Shareable: Could not create semaphore set
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Simon Wistow wrote: On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:45:27PM -0400, Andy Ford said: Glad to hear you got it fixed. soliloquy++ :) It could be a new Warnock-esque dilemma. Good to see you getting it fixed though - I always find it fascinating to watch other people's thought processes. Thanks :) And please pay no attention to the headers behind that message. Or this one. *ahem* -- Simon Wistow
Re: Bizarre DBI error
Paul Makepeace wrote: [...] yields, execute 0 (type i)... Execute 0 failed for type i: rv: '' errstr: err: 0 state: at /usr/local/lib/site_perl/Tantrix/Toys/Surrealism.pm line 58. execute 1 (type i)... execute 0 (type t)... (type is app-specific, q/a/i/t) ..and nothing useful in the trace file except to confirm it's all happening on the same $dbh. [...] Okay, a shot in the dark here since I don't know the mysql DBD driver. Maybe they keep err states per handle in that driver now. How about trying $random_quip_sth-errstr instead and see if that gives you something? N
Re: Extending Other Packages
Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Meanwhile in your code use Bar; # load Bar use Foo; # load Foo, which will load extensions into Bar (the fred method # in the above explanation But don't do that. Really. No, really, really, really. No REALLY REALLY REALLY. Years of OO design have shown us that this is a bad idea. Tell that to the Smalltalk boys. Sometimes adding a method to Object is the best way to get your package to work. In fact, I'm not sure you've really done OO until you've added a method to someone else's class. -- Piers
Re: Bizarre DBI error
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 06:44:48PM +0100, Nigel Rantor wrote: Okay, a shot in the dark here since I don't know the mysql DBD driver. Maybe they keep err states per handle in that driver now. How about trying $random_quip_sth-errstr instead and see if that gives you something? The dbh-errstr produces the correct error on genuine error like a fetch after that failed execute. The state etc are set appropriately too. That's what so odd - the execute fails and yet no errors are issued. Trying your idea, Execute 0 failed for type i: rv: '' errstr: err: 0 state: sth error: at [...] So, no info there either. :-/ Paul -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ If I was a frog, then look out for martians. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: 384(!) readers on London.pm
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:49:30PM +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Paul Makepeace wrote: Those curious about London.pm mailing list membership, members: 488 (nomail: 104) You can take a look at the data I mentioned on YAPC::EU about the size of some of the groups: http://www.perl.org.il/pm/ Cool! As you can see L.pm has a fair number of nomails, most of which are duplicates for the same person so they can post from different places. So the number of real people is lower than it might first appear purely from raw subscription data. It quite possible if Seattle.pm don't have a closed list policy like London.pm, and hence less need for nomail, their group could be (slightly) larger. This might be the first time anyone's systematically looked at the nomail subscribers, hence posting the script if any other .pm groups using mailman would like to compare. (Has this thread exceeded any internationally recognized numerical nerdiness thresholds?) P -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ If bananas were purple, then do the Dog, not the Monkey. -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: perl and marketing
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Press releases are uninteresing and dull, dull, dulldo something interesting and they will come :) I am not sure if that is interesting or if it makes sense but if there were some (educational ?) games in Perl that school kids could play and then hack around the code. Lately I thought about LOGO. Is it still used ? Would it be interesting to create a LOGO implementation in Perl ? and while writing this mail I searched for LOGO a bit and found this site about YoYo - Java for kids. http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/bongo/ Gabor
Re: [JOB] Perl / mod_perl / DBI developer (Linux). Based at central London office. Required asap
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 06:36:59PM +0100, Kirk Bowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The application is an existing (working prototype) web-based campaign marketing tool which among other things processes both outbound and inbound email and text messages. Principal requirements: you will be need to become conversant with the existing Perl / mod_perl / DBI code and overall approach, bring some aspects of the coding (e.g. module structures, object method approaches) up to professional standard (it was and is a working prototype), add two new system features to quite precise requirements, and / or other similar work if required. You will be working under the direction of the original developer who will provide guidance and specific tasks throughout. This 3 month post is on-site at our central London office. No international / teleworking possible (although a percentage of working from home may be allowed over the time period). Required skills: (need to be strong on all of these) Perl, Apache, mod_perl, Template::Toolkit, DBI, DB transaction coding (ie commit / rollback), PostgreSQL, knowledge of Postfix and simple Procmail (no complex recipies required in Procmail), general appreciation and knowledge of Linux performance tuning. Desired skills: experience of interfacing with professional SMS gateways in both directions. Appreciation of web-based user interface design. Technical documentation skills. Terms of employment: independent contractor, project based, full-time Duration: 3 months maximum Rate: 3,000 GBP per month Location: on-site, central London office (near Euston Station) Contact: please reply to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] as soon as possible with your CV, or any general queries. Please contact within 48 hours of this posting as we may need to seek alternative routes if we have not sourced a developer in this timescale. Kirk, My CV is at http://mag-sol.com/CV/Data/. I'm available to start in four weeks time and I hope you'll see that I've got plenty of experience in most of the skill areas that you are looking for. My only problem is with the rates you are quoting. As a contractor my minimum rates would be 250 GBP/day (which is half of what I'd usually expect to get). That comes out at about 5000 GBP/month. Your project sounds very interesting, so I hope there is some flexibility in your rates. Cheers, Dave... -- Don't you boys know any _nice_ songs?
Re: Bottom End Contractor Rates
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Greg McCarroll wrote: so thats, 25,825 equivalent in terms of a permanent salary, but without the training, pension, stability or expenses of a permie - not to mention little things like your evaluation for mortgage approval. Ha ha ha ! Training for permies ?? You have got to be kidding, the last time I got a days training in *anything* was my industrial placement at uni. Also I have yet to receive a Pension from any employer in this industry - oddly I got a pension and training while working in Hotels, cleaning hospitals and even working in a supermarket. It seems to me that while companies aim to pay the bare minimum for contractors they will diminish this pool of resource in the economy, in IT especially companies that have very changeable requirements in terms of levels of IT resource that they need, killing the contractor market (or at least deskilling it) seems like a bad idea. They are also de-skilling the permies, although not as badly. I would not advise anybody I liked to get into this industry - it doesn't really reward skills, loyalty or experience except for a very small minority. ah well, maybe its time to be a plumber, after all if your loo breaks you cant just expect employees to get by, you wouldn't expect them to come to work every day and deal with a pile of shit after all - sadly the same isn't true for IT working conditions ;-) I've been doing a lot of plumbing in my new house - its not that hard if you spend a little time preparing and have the right tools. yours, A. -- Aaron J Trevena - Perl Hacker, Kung Fu Geek, Internet Consultant AutoDia --- Automatic UML and HTML Specifications from Perl, C++ and Any Datasource with a Handler. http://droogs.org/autodia
Re: 384(!) readers on London.pm
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Paul Makepeace wrote: Those curious about London.pm mailing list membership, members: 488 (nomail: 104) You can take a look at the data I mentioned on YAPC::EU about the size of some of the groups: http://www.perl.org.il/pm/ Gabor
Bottom End Contractor Rates
Someone has just posted a 3k/mth job for 3mths to this list, and while getting paid anything is better than being on the dole, i wanted to take the chance to talk about contractor rates. I've started this off as a new thread, and yet i realise that this may not be enough seperation from the original post and for that I apologise - I do not want to discourage anyone from taking your job, I just want to look at the current state of the market. So with apologies, ... Duration: 3 months maximum Rate: 3,000 GBP per month It's at times like this I'm glad I've stepped away temporarily from the contracting game, 3K/mth seems great to start with after all thats 36,000 a year. until you take into account a few problems with contracting, lets start with no paid holidays, now in the UK thats approximatly 20~24 working days a year, so thats -3,000 (approx) a year you lose by being a contractor of course being a contractor you may have some off time between jobs, optomistically this will be about 5~6 days, so again you will lose (very approximately, but do me a favour and keep the maths easy), 20~24 working days, -3,000 (approx) from not being empoyed just for fun lets add in 6 days sick a year, which doesn't seem unreasonable -750 (approx) for sick so we are currently running at, 29,250 of course as a contractor you are expected to run a limited company, but the advantage of that is you can take expenses off before tax, so lets start with the cost of running such a beast, i conservedly estimate this at 500 quid a year. so we now have as a total ... 28,750 of course the advantage of being a contractor is being your own boss, which means that you get to contribute your own national insurance, its 11% now (thanks tony), but lets say 10% to keep the maths simple -2,875 so thats, 25,825 equivalent in terms of a permanent salary, but without the training, pension, stability or expenses of a permie - not to mention little things like your evaluation for mortgage approval. It seems to me that while companies aim to pay the bare minimum for contractors they will diminish this pool of resource in the economy, in IT especially companies that have very changeable requirements in terms of levels of IT resource that they need, killing the contractor market (or at least deskilling it) seems like a bad idea. ah well, maybe its time to be a plumber, after all if your loo breaks you cant just expect employees to get by, you wouldn't expect them to come to work every day and deal with a pile of shit after all - sadly the same isn't true for IT working conditions ;-) Greg -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/ jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED] msn://[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [JOB] Perl / mod_perl / DBI developer (Linux). Based at central London office. Required asap
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 09:00:52PM +0100, Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [ something that really wasn't supposed to go to the list ] bugger! bugger! bugger! Sorry about that. Dave... -- Two slightly distorted guitars
Re: Bottom End Contractor Rates
Greg McCarroll wrote: ah well, maybe its time to be a plumber, after all if your loo breaks you cant just expect employees to get by, you wouldn't expect them to come to work every day and deal with a pile of shit after all - sadly the same isn't true for IT working conditions ;-) if we'd just emerged from an economic boom based on the premise of putting lots of pipes into everything, doubtless plumbing would be in a worse position. Or, for that matter, if there was any connection between the property boom and Internet stuff... ti
Re: perl and marketing
Alex Hudson wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:36:28AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote: You might really say that this is a problem of Open Source as a whole. Its marketing really sucks. Double plus for Free Software. Similarly and earlier, Leon Brocard wrote: [Perl PR] needs people to just do it. The right place for this discussion is the perl advocacy mailing list ... I find Mark Dominus's points - http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/12/advocacy.html - very persuasive (summary: advocacy can easily decend into a tribal Perl rocks, $WHATEVER sucks, which is neither persusasive, nor good for a language such as Perl, which improves by borrowing solutions from other languages). Sell the benefit - not the technology. Does that apply to _anything_? I'm not sure it sells cars. Apart from a passing nod to safety, independent traction control, four-wheel drive etc. is all sold on the basis of 'cool'. True. But cars are a particularly sharp example of that, in my opinion. Take a look around you on the tube - adverts seem to fall fairly cleanly into a number of approaches to selling products. - Price. Some airlines, insurance companies, telcos get your attention by claiming to be able to do something very cheaply or easily. - Because it works. (Or because claiming it works is part of the placebo effect). - By making the brand, or the product seem cool, or something to aspire to. - By making the product a badge of membership of some tribe/subculture/whatever - Humour, or ironically knocking the idea of a brand as a badge. And so on, until the marketing guys get bored. I believe some of these approaches are relatively novel (ie. have become popular since the mid 70s - I gather that the public got bored with lots of increasingly-transparent 'this product will make you a beautiful person with a yacht'). The trouble with PR is that people start to ignore you. You may find yourself having to be more subtle and sinister. Or turn though 180 degrees, and be more honest. (See http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html ) Habits of payware software that Open Source people seem diabolically keen to imitate: 1. Buzzwords. Content management system is a favourite, which seems taggable onto virtually any system regardless of functionality. Assets as umbrella term for nonplaintext-content (typically .jpg/.pdf/etc) is truely Orwellian - on most sites, the graphics are NOT the key assets, they are decorative. 2. Huge products. M$ does very well (?) making word processors that need unthinkable computer power to operate, then monopolising them. It is doubtful whether economies of scale operate the same way for open source. (a) small pieces, loosely integrated. Like the Internet/WWW. *NOT* like Prestel or minitel. More topically, *NOT* like the American mains grid on the eastern seabord (; (b) With open source, you don't HAVE to do everything the user wants. If you make it possible for people to add and maintain extensions, this is potentially much more powerful. 3. Systems that abruptly screech to a halt, and ask you to confirm things with irritating little popup boxes. ... Cheers Ti
Re: perl and marketing
Tim Sweetman wrote: Alex Hudson wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:36:28AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote: You might really say that this is a problem of Open Source as a whole. Its marketing really sucks. Double plus for Free Software. Similarly and earlier, Leon Brocard wrote: [Perl PR] needs people to just do it. The right place for this discussion is the perl advocacy mailing list ... I find Mark Dominus's points - http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/12/advocacy.html - very persuasive (summary: advocacy can easily decend into a tribal Perl rocks, $WHATEVER sucks, which is neither persusasive, nor good for a language such as Perl, which improves by borrowing solutions from other languages). Sell the benefit - not the technology. Does that apply to _anything_? snip/ According to the book I've read about marketing[0], customers make purchasing decisions based on perceived benefits (rational or otherwise) as opposed to features. example If you used Perl you could use the Foo module from CPAN (feature). Your script would take 5 minutes to write (benefit) and you could take the rest of the day off (benefit). /example From what I understand of the other book I've read about marketing[1] the Interweb has broken a lot of the 'broadcast' marketing model (but probably not the benefit selling bit). The perl community were/are probably pioneers in the gonzo approach to marketing. IMHO as most Perl advocacy takes place online, anything much more formal wouldn't produce many, er, benefits. $0.02 [0] http://tinyurl.com/kent [1] http://tinyurl.com/keoa -- Paul Sharpe Tel: 619 523 0100 Fax: 619 523 0101 Russell Sharpe, Inc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4993 Niagara Avenue, Suite 209 http://www.russellsharpe.com/ San Diego, CA 92107-3185
Re: perl and marketing
Gabor Szabo [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth: * *I am not sure if that is interesting or if it makes sense but if there were *some (educational ?) games in Perl that school kids could play and then *hack around the code. Well, see, the cool thing about School House Rock, especially Grammar Rock and Science Rock was that it took a bunch of fundamental stuff about language or science, made it entertaining and set it to an infectiously viral tune. Getting kids interested by showing them what they can do would likely be appealing. Press releases from yet another open source vector on yet another same old topic is really stale...but a project getting kids involved might get some media interest as well as developing a customer base and developers for the future before they have too much stuff to unlearn or fried all their neurons on single malts. :) *and while writing this mail I searched for LOGO a bit and found this *site about YoYo - Java for kids. *http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/bongo/ Just like MIT to overengineer something :) If little kids in Finland can master Finnish, Swedish and English by the time they are 10, a programming language surely couldn't be that big of a deal. Learning Finnish much, much later in life isn't quite so easy :) e.
OSX - 'the real question'
Dear London Perl Mongers Many thanks to you all for coming back on this. Perhaps a bit of background so you can see my viewpoint. I work as a humble auditor, and part of my job is looking at business data, either in binary or text format, on a variety of platforms. It seems to me far better to use Perl than VB/Access, not least because the bugs in the compiler are documented. Consequently I am a beginner as far as Perl goes, but no stranger to computing and data. Of course there is a 'real question' as Randal pointed out. But on the way, a lot of other useful stuff got mentioned... The real question was why the STDOUT doesn't appear in the terminal window, so the famous 'hello world' script runs OK but puts the output somewhere else. I can pipe it to a second script to put the output in a file but that's no use if I want to build an interactive script. A related question. I have chmod 755'ed the file (called foo.command) so that it is executable, but when I type the command name in the terminal (have checked the path), the response is 'Command not found', so I have to type 'perl foo.command' then the script runs. I have the '#!/usr/bin/perl -w' as line one. The other stuff was how I get hold of perl 5.8 (do I need compilers?), and thanks for the cpan url. Best wishes Alex
Re: OSX - 'the real question'
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Alex Brewer wrote: The real question was why the STDOUT doesn't appear in the terminal window, so the famous 'hello world' script runs OK but puts the output somewhere else. I can pipe it to a second script to put the output in a file but that's no use if I want to build an interactive script. This is just not correct. I haven't seen or read anything to suggest that STDOUT, STDIN, and STDERR behave any differently on an OSX console than they do on Linux, BSD, Solaris, or Irix. (I haven't tried any other Unix variants, but that's enough to satisfy my curiosity :). What results are you seeing that suggest OSX Perl behave at all strange as far as the standard file streams? Can you provide sample code? A related question. I have chmod 755'ed the file (called foo.command) so that it is executable, but when I type the command name in the terminal (have checked the path), the response is 'Command not found', so I have to type 'perl foo.command' then the script runs. I have the '#!/usr/bin/perl -w' as line one. Are you using the default shell, tcsh? What do you get from echo $PATH ? Chances are, the current working directory ( . ) isn't on the list. You can change this by editing your dotfiles (~/.tcshrc or ~/.bashrc, depending on your poison of choice), but a lot of people will argue that having CWD in your path is questionable from a security point of view. One way around this, regardless of your $PATH settings, is to explicitly add the current directory to the command you're invoking with './', as ./foo.command This will work no matter what $PATH is, because your shell will expand that dot into the full path, as if you had typed (say) /Users/abrewer/bin/foo.command or whatever. This isn't an OSX issue; it comes up on pretty much all POSIX shells. The other stuff was how I get hold of perl 5.8 (do I need compilers?), and thanks for the cpan url. If you have specific functionality you need from 5.8, then yes it can be built installed, and yes doing so generally means getting a compiler. For the latter, Apple provides a full suite of development tools that generally gets updated a couple of times per year. The development tools are a free (and huge) download after you sign up for a free developer's account at http://connect.apple.com/. Those will provide you with the standard GNU command line tools (gcc, make, etc) as well as graphical applications for building OSX gui software. Once you've got the developer's tools installed, you have everything you need to upgrade Perl. However, you may want to try the Fink package manager, which is based on Debian's dpkg/apt-get/dselect toolkit. If you install Fink, then installing Perl 5.8.0 is just a matter of running sudo fink install perl580 and waiting half an hour or so for it to compile. Alternatively, you may prefer to just follow David Wheeler's instructions for this kind of thing at http://david.wheeler.net/osx.html. Alternatively, if you don't *need* 5.8.x just yet, and you can make do with 5.6.0 for now, then the next version of OSX is planned to come with a copy of Perl 5.8.1; it should be out by the end of the year. More questions? Send 'em here, or feel free to sign up for the OSX Perl list at http://lists.perl.org/showlist.cgi?name=macosx. HTH :) -- Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://devers.homeip.net:8080/ version, latest, n. That VERSION which most exceeds the DEADLINE for completion. -- from _The Computer Contradictionary_, Stan Kelly-Bootle, 1995
