[LUTE] Re: Things to play in quarantine

[Antonio Corona]

   How can you be so certain that this is the earliest example of the
   Conde Claros?
   Best regards to everybody,
   Antonio

   On Sunday, 22 March 2020, 14:25:51 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
wrote:
   For some Condes Claros beginner fun, check out this duet (you can
   record
   the second part and play to it).
   It's also the earliest example.
   [1]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/leg_394_si
   mancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf
   The best beginner's book (I learned to play with it) is certainly the
   one by Hans Newsidler:
   [2]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
   [3]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
   The great thing is that Newsidler carefully progresses, introducing
   just
   one new aspect per piece.
   Also the first couple of pieces have only two voices, the third can
   optionally be sung (it's popular tunes everyone knew back then).
   Other books like Robinson's School of Music seem too difficult and
   unorganized for the beginner.
   Though Robinson is nice and the introduction helpful, it fails to
   create
   a learning curve.
   On 22.03.20 20:44, Sean Smith wrote:
   >You're right. It is long and involved and certainly has its
   difficult
   >bits.
   >It might be a project for someone with time on their hands to
   select
   >bits for easier sections to play. It has its parallels with Conde
   >Claros which went through many personal edits at the time so it
   would
   >hardly be anachronistic to edit it to one's specs. I would like to
   >think that there's something in there for everybody.
   >Sean
   >
   >On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 3:04 AM Jurgen Frenz
   ><[1][4]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
   >
   >  if it is for easy pieces to play or re-work basic technique I
   found
   >  Lynda Says quarterly advice quite useful and the higher numbers
   are
   >  not so easy either:
   >  [2][5]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
   >  Further there's a list of tentative "grades" of difficulty of
   lute
   >  pieces, not everybody feels the same as we all have different
   >  difficulties but nice to go through
   >  [3][6]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
   >  Best wishes
   >  JÃÆÃ ¼rgen
   >  à ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢ Original Message à ¢Ã ¢Ã 
¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢
   >  On Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:23 AM, Sean Smith
   >  <[4][7]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >  > Both faves and we're lucky to have them.
   >  > I know you like finding hidden things, Tristan. Go to the
   really
   >  long
   >  > [Dump] on f280 in the Marsh. There's a measure missing between
   114
   >  and
   >  > 115. Put in something you like or steal/adapt a measure from
   >  elsewhere.
   >  > Now here's the fun part, record it carefully, then play it
   against
   >  the
   >  > recording with a lag of 4 measures. It's not perfect but it
   works
   >  kind
   >  > of nicely. It will certainly keep you occupied for an
   afternoon or
   >  two.
   >  > ...and it's excellent metronome practice regardless.
   >  > Whether it was meant that way is hard to say and, depending on
   >  whom you
   >  > talk to, even suggesting it is probably irresponsible with a
   touch
   >  of
   >  > 'shame on you!'. There's certainly no indication. It also
   starts a
   >  > little abruptly so you might add a few C and G iterations on
   the
   >  front
   >  > end.
   >  > Sean
   >  >
   >  > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:13 PM Tristan von Neumann
   >  > <[1][5][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   >  >
   >  > Many of you might have more time on their hands than usual.
   >  > So here's a list of favorite books and manuscripts to play.
   >  > * Marsh Lute Book. Fun for weeks.
   >  >
   >
   [2][6][9]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/ms
   >  .z.
   >  > 3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
   >  > * Siena Ms. - it never fails to surprise
   >  >
   >
   [3][7][10]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/MS
   _
   >  28.
   >  > B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
   >  > * If you want to concentrate on one piece: this one will keep
   you
   >  > busy
   >  > for a long time.
   >  >
   >
   [4][8][11]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia_
   0
   >  1.p
   >  > df
   >  > * he learned from the best: This book by Paladin is extremely
   >  > charming
   >  > and not too difficult
   >  > [5][9][12]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
   >  > * in times like these...
   >  >
   >
   [6][10][13]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
   7
   >  /v2/
   >  > pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
 

[LUTE] Re: looking for Simanca manuscript (vihuela)

[Antonio Corona]

You can find the photographs in:

“A Vihuela Manuscript in the Archivo de Simancas”, The Lute, Vol. XXVI, part 1, 
1986, pp. 3-17. 








 On Friday, 17 January 2020, 12:21:26 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





 Does anyone have a scan of this vihuela manuscript?

I'd love to have a look at it.


:)
T*



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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Thank you so much Rainer.

Best,
Antonio








 On Friday, 10 January 2020, 10:19:16 GMT-6, Rainer 
 wrote:





 For a better digital version see:


http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120

Rainer

Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy:
> Dear Antonio,
>
> I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' 
> _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, 
> help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under 
> "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: 
> http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png
>  . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute 
> music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to 
> clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike 
> all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the 
> guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in 
> character. I would be very interested to know what the music is.
>
> There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could 
> you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin 
> heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as 
> Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky 
> performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) 
> than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in 
> the vihuela books.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart.



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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stewart

You can find the reference and the music in page 597.

Best wishes,
Antonio








 On Friday, 10 January 2020, 07:16:36 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy 
 wrote:





 Dear Antonio,

I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis'
_Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it.
However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there
under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book:
http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png
. The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute
music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to
clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch),
unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of
the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in
character. I would be very interested to know what the music is.

There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could
you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin
heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as
Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky
performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar)
than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in
the vihuela books.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-----Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear Stewart

What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very
much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so,

Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing.

Best wishes,
Antonio








On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy
 wrote:





Dear Antonio,

A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread.

Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for
guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus
Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute
tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course
guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-----Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear G. C.

As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with
the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which
are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans
before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed
a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán,
his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a
las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen).  Valid questions would then be:
what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit
this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not
have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of!
  mind, but not to our knowledge.

Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are
no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique
condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment
but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán
used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous
publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that
is all I can find in common.

Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing
any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available
evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I
step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet.

Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of
Milán´s pieces?








On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. 
wrote:





  I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
  Valencian hands at the time)
  (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
  to think of what influences were at work there.)
  G.

  On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wr

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stewart

What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very 
much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so,

Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing.

Best wishes,
Antonio








 On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy 
 wrote:





 Dear Antonio,

A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread.

Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for
guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus
Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute
tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course
guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear G. C.

As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with
the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which
are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans
before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed
a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán,
his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a
las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen).  Valid questions would then be:
what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit
this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not
have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of!
  mind, but not to our knowledge.

Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are
no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique
condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment
but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán
used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous
publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that
is all I can find in common.

Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing
any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available
evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I
step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet.

Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of
Milán´s pieces?








On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. 
wrote:





  I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
  Valencian hands at the time)
  (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
  to think of what influences were at work there.)
  G.

  On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

          Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
    a
          general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
    around
          the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and
          (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his
          surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained
    yet. Not
          to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an
    improvement
          (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on.
        Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of
    honour and
        ownership for one of the early vihuelists here?
        Just intrigued
        G.
        --
    To get on or off this list see list information at
    [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Another piece for the puzzle: how about Francesco playing diferencias upon the 
Conde Claros tenor?

Francisco Salinas mentions this in his De Musica Libri Septem (1577). Here he 
illustrates the music of Conde Claros and states after "Super quem tenorem ego 
Romae modulantem audiui coram Paulo 3. Pont. Max. Franciscum Mediolanensem, qui 
fuit sui temporis Citharoedorum facilé princeps, & mihi valde familiaris".

By the way, we do have proof that Narváez knew well Francesco's music.

Best,
Antonio 








 On Friday, 10 January 2020, 03:39:25 GMT-6, G. C.  wrote:





     That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in
    italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and
    El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a
    completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on
    mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have
    had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should
    definitely look into this...

  G.

  PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could
  not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé...

  G.

  --


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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Oops ...

Sorry, only the Libro secondo is in Neapolitan tablature. My mistake.

Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. According to Thurston Dart, the best advice a student could receive was 
"Verify your references". We are still learning.








 On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C.  wrote:





   I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
  Valencian hands at the time)
  (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
  to think of what influences were at work there.)
  G.

  On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

          Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
    a
          general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
    around
          the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and
          (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his
          surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained
    yet. Not
          to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an
    improvement
          (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on.
        Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of
    honour and
        ownership for one of the early vihuelists here?
        Just intrigued
        G.
        --
    To get on or off this list see list information at
    [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Sorry to say, Naples was not in Valencian hands (if that is what you mean) and 
neither was Neapolitan tablature. The sources by da Milano are not manuscript, 
but two printed books published in 1536, the same year as Casteliono and the 
issuing forth of El Maestro: the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro 
primo della fortuna and the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro 
secondo della fortuna. The titles are intriguing, and it would be very tempting 
to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. I would agree to this 
hypothesis.

Best wishes
Antonio








 On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C.  wrote:





   I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
  Valencian hands at the time)
  (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
  to think of what influences were at work there.)
  G.

  On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

          Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
    a
          general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
    around
          the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and
          (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his
          surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained
    yet. Not
          to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an
    improvement
          (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on.
        Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of
    honour and
        ownership for one of the early vihuelists here?
        Just intrigued
        G.
        --
    To get on or off this list see list information at
    [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

Dear G. C.

As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by 
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by 
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information 
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the 
exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are 
quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 
1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French 
influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans 
resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas 
pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen).  Valid questions would then be: what were his 
sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big 
lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any 
satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of!
  mind, but not to our knowledge.

Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no 
other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition 
(an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, 
too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic 
flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications 
(and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can 
find in common.

Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any 
issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence 
can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long 
as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet.

Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of 
Milán´s pieces?








 On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C.  wrote:





   I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
  Valencian hands at the time)
  (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
  to think of what influences were at work there.)
  G.

  On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

          Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
    a
          general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
    around
          the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and
          (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his
          surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained
    yet. Not
          to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an
    improvement
          (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on.
        Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of
    honour and
        ownership for one of the early vihuelists here?
        Just intrigued
        G.
        --
    To get on or off this list see list information at
    [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Antonio Corona]

 à �à �à � Dear Antonio,
        please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan
        was
        and is his name, and he's not from Milano.
        They're making fun of it, or so is my impression.
        Mathias
        __
        Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
        --- Original-Nachricht ---
        Von: Jurgen Frenz
        Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name
        Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr
        An: Antonio Corona
        Cc: [4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        Here is the collection of names for SeÃÆ Ã �or Luys from the
  online
        Petrucci library, for what it's worth:
        ÃÆÃ � Ã �
        Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃÆ Ã �n, Luys Milan, Luis
        de
        MilÃÆ Ã �n, LluÃÆs del MilÃÆ
        ÃÆÃ � Ã �
        Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃÆ Ã �n, ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆÃ
        � à �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �
        à �ÃÆà � à �, LluÃÆs del
        MilÃÆ , ÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �, ÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �,
        ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã � ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ
        ÃÆÃ � Ã �
        Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃÆ Ã �n, LluÃÆs
        MilÃÆ ,
        Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃÆ , LluÃÆs Mila, LluÃÆs de MilÃÆ
        , Luys
        MilÃÆ Ã �n
        --
        "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there."
        JalÃÆl ad-DÃÆ Ã �n Muhammad Rumi
        ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � Original Message ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆÃ
        �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �
        On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona
        <[2][5][6][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
        A couple more:
        Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan
        BartolomÃÆ Ã � de Villalba y EstaÃÆ Ã �a, El pelegrino curioso ...
        (1577):
        Don Luys Milan
        On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona
        [3][6][7][7]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
        Dear friends,
        Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan
        Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan
        Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan
        Juan FernÃÆ Ã �ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys
        Milan
        Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan
        Best wishes,
        Antonio
        On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim LÃÆ Ã �dtke
        [4][7][8][8]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
        In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ÃÆÃ � Ã � I am not a home for
        the
        next
        few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published
        by
        the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look
        into
        the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for
  MilÃÆ
        Ã �n,
        de MilÃÆ Ã �n or similar.
        Best
        Joachim
        To get on or off this list see list information at
        [5][8][9][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        --
        References
        1.

  [9][10][10]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_
      app_an
        droi
        d_sendmail_footer
        2. mailto:[10][11][11]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        3. mailto:[11][12][12]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        4. mailto:[12][13][13]jo.lued...@t-online.de
        5.
        [13][14][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        --
        References
        1.

  [15][15]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app
      _andro
        id_sendmail_footer
        2. [16][16]http://turovsky.org/
        3. mailto:[17][17]mathias.roe...@t-online.de
        4. mailto:[18][18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        5. mailto:[19][19]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        6. mailto:[20][20]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        7. mailto:[21][21]jo.lued...@t-online.de
        8. [22][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        9.

  [23][23]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app
      _andro
        id_sendmail_footer
        10. mailto:[24][24]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        11. mailto:[25][25]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        12. mailto:[26][26]jo.lued...@t-online.de
        13. [27][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        --
      References
        1.

  [28]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_andro
      id_sendmail_footer
        2. [29]mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
        3. [30]http://turovsky.org/
        4. [31]mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de
        5. [32]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        6. [33]mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        7. [34]mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
        8. [35]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
        9. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      10.

  [37]https://kommunikation

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Antonio Corona]

 Dear Ron

I don't believe Milán set the standard for later vihuelists, at least for those 
whose works we know. His works, as you rightly pointed out are quite 
idiosyncratic  and unlike those which followed. On the other hand you may be 
right about the term Fantasia. This is what Milán has to say about it:

Qualquiera obra deste libro de qualquier tono que sea: se intitula fantasia: a 
respecto que solo procede de la fantasia y industria del auctor que la hizo.

Regarding Díaz Romano, the name may seem a fairly unambigous reference except 
from the fact that he hailed from Guadalupe, in Extremadura. He set his 
printing press in 1530 at Valencia succeding Cristóbal Cofman and in that year 
he published a Glosa by Alonso de Cervantes and later used the printer`s mark 
of Juan Joffre, as well as his type and presses. Thereafter he published quite 
a number of books, most of them  in Spanish until 1541 (except books such as 
Jaume Roig's Llibre de consells, 1531, the Breviarum Valentinum, 1533 or the 
Furs of Valencia, 1539- none in Italian) when he returned to Guadalupe.

One of the main influences for printers, and specially printers of musical 
treatises -I suspect not being a specialist in the subject- came from Germany, 
as may be gathered from printers of incunabula such as the Cuatro compañeros 
alemanes (Domingo Marcos Durán, Lux Bella, 1492) and Petrum Haguenbach & 
Leonardus Hutz alemanes (Guillermo de Podio, Ars Musicorum, 1495); early 
Sixteenth-Century books, such as Johan Rosebach aleman (Francisco Tovar, Libro 
de musica practica, 1510) and Fadrique aleman de Basilea (Gonzalo Martínez de 
Bizcargui, Arte de canto llano, 1515; Intonaciones nuevamente corregidas, 
1515); or even printers of non musical books such as Johannem gherlinc alamanum 
(Pro condendis orationibus, 1468) - I quote from the colophons where they all 
call themselves Germans. There is even a privilege from the Catholic Monarchs 
dated in 1477 in favour of a Teodorico aleman. A tell tell sign in the case of 
Milán is the use of Gothic type instead of the Roman one used !
 in five of the later vihuela books (with the exception of Narváez's Seys 
libros del delphin).

Best wishes
Antonio








 On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 05:15:49 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





   Dear Antonio:

  Thank you for this clarification.  While I appreciate Milan and his
  status as a pioneer in documenting Spanish music and courtly custom—and
  setting a standard for the later viheula prints—it seems to me (and
  others) that he was strongly influenced by trends emerging from Italy.
  I don't know this for certain but I suspect Milan was among the first
  to use of the term Fantasia to describe his instrumental excogitations,
  since Recercar was the preferred term in the earlier Italian lute
  books.  One last thing regarding surnames: It is interesting to note
  that El Maestro was published by Francisco Díaz Romano, a fairly
  unambiguous reference.

  Best wishes,

  RA
    __

  From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   on behalf of Antonio Corona
  
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:21 PM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name

  Dear Ron
  I`m sorry if my position is unclear. It would be foolish to claim that
  Milan was unaware of the cultural currents prevalent at the time. He
  moved in one of the most refined courts of the time and surely was
  influenced -one way or another- by them. For example, the poetic
  trends  in Spain at the time, as López Alemany puts forward, can be
  clearly detected in Milán by his use of the Italian sonnets by Petrarch
  and Sannazaro. This influence can also be found later in Mudarra's own
  book. Furthermore, the first evidence of the use of the Italian sonnet
  as a means for poetic expression in Spanish date from some time before,
  according to Juan Boscán, who was prompred by a conversation with
  Andrea Navaggiero in 1526 to try his hand at writing Spanish
  endecasyllabic poetry. Boscán published his first book of such verse in
  1543 and guess what: sure enough, later on Milán included more that 40
  sonnets in Spanish in El Cortesano. He was indeed aware and influenced
  of the cultural t!
    rends of his time. Now, I would be wary of confusing this influence
  with the direct use of Italian models for his own compositions. While
  there is a resemblance in the harmonic pattern (if I may
  anachronistically call it that way) between Verdelot and Miláns
  versions of Maddona, I think that Milán did not derive his own from any
  of the Verdelot's books; the evidence may be flimsy, but there is a
  textual difference between both versions that suggets that Milán drew
  his text from another source:  "et voi non me´l credete " (Verdelot) as
  opposed to "et voi non mi credete" (Milán). I am aware that this may be
  subjet to criticism, but to me it points to a more complex

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Antonio Corona]

The point is: where did they get them from?



 On Monday, 6 January 2020, 08:22:47 GMT-6, Jurgen Frenz 
 wrote:


 Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online Petrucci 
library, for what it's worth:

＝
Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de Milán, Lluís 
del Milà
＝
Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ルイス・デ・ミラン, Lluís del Milà, Милан, Луис 
де, لويس دي ميلان
＝
Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, Lluís Milà, Lluis Mila, 
Luis Milan, Lluis Milà, Lluís Mila, Lluís de Milà, Luys Milán


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi



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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Antonio Corona]

z Alemany’s project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of
  the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry
  within the broader context of court performances. The study of this
  “new poetry,” as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely
  as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A
  paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early
  modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political
  context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of
  traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists – musicians who
  played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument – selected, modified,
  and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote
  instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving
  as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the
  role of poetry in the early modern period."

  RA
    __

  From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   on behalf of Antonio Corona
  
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name

  A couple more:
  Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan
  Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don
  Luys Milan
    On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona
   wrote:
    Dear friends,
  Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan
  Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan
  Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan
  Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan
  Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan
  Best wishes,
  Antonio
    On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke
   wrote:
    In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few
  days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the
  Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the
  commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de
  Milán or similar.
  Best
  Joachim
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Antonio Corona]

A couple more:

Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan

Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan 








 On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona 
 wrote:





 Dear friends,

Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan

Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan

Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan

Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan

Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan



Best wishes,
Antonio




 On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke 
 wrote:





 In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, 
but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la 
Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if 
there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar.

Best

Joachim



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends,

Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan

Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan

Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan

Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan

Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan



Best wishes,
Antonio




 On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke 
 wrote:





 In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, 
but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la 
Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if 
there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar.

Best

Joachim



To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Very simple: he is not Luis de Milán. It is certainly outrageous.


On the other hand, if you seriously want to learn more about the biography of 
Milán you can read:

Francesc Villanueva Serrano,“Poemas inéditos del vihuelista y escritor Luis 
Milán y nuevas consideraciones sobre su identidad: el ms. 2050 de la Biblioteca 
de Catalunya”, Anuario Musical, 66, 2011, pp. 61-118.









 On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 13:23:47 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:

 May I just add something outrageous:

This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of Italian 
origin?





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[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations 
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a 
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the 
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe 
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely 
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing 
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there 
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in 
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely 
speculative.  I cannot give credence to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, 
again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call 
it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be used as a 
basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large amount of 
intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, 
not to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as 
the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at 
the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a member of the 
lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian 
versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used should put us on our 
guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same 
category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used 
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later 
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must 
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing 
more.

Best wishes,
Antonio






 On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





   Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
  champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
  Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
  significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
  speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
  including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
  of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
  amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
  and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
  music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
  Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
  had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

  RA
    __

  From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   on behalf of Antonio Corona
  
  Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

  Oops ... a mistake.
  In the paragraph wich reads:
  Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
  of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
  in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
  a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
  the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
  Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
  1561, a long time after.
  The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
  publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
  1535).
  Best wishes,
  Antonio
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Oops ... a mistake.

In the paragraph wich reads:

Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the 
Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with 
Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation 
by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El 
Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but 
his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after.

The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing 
El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535).

Best wishes,
Antonio



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[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Ron,

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you too. I cannot consider Milán as an 
anthologizer: I am not prepared take the leap of faith it requires to consider 
him so. When Milán borrowed a tune he acknowledged it: "Esta pauana que se 
sigue la sonada della se hizo en Ytalia y canta con ella vna letra que dize qua 
la bella franceschina la compostura que va sobrella es mia y es del otauo tono".

It is true that the author of Maddona per voi ardo is unknown, but we might 
safely place him it in the same italianate poetic tendency that the early 
vihuelists (Milán and Mudarra) favoured. Both vihuelists set to music texts by 
Petrarch and Sannazaro, endecasillabic poetry -as Madoona per voi ardo was too- 
that was coming into fashion in Spain at the time (authors such as Garcilaso or 
Boscan took it up later in Spanish). I would find it easier to believe that the 
text might have enjoyed some circulation than to find any link between Milán 
and Verdelot (if there is one please tell me) other than the fact that they 
both used the same text. Furthermore, the Intavolatura de li madrigali was 
published in Venice, with Scotto's printer mark, in 1536, that is, one year 
after the work on publishing El Maestro had begun; Il primo libro de Madrigali, 
for four voices was published in 1537, again by Scotto (the "Nouamente 
stampato" in the Cantus title-page dos not necessarily mean "pr!
 inted again" - it can also be read as "newly printed"). Both books contain, of 
course, the Maddona per voi ardo.

On the other hand, if we are to credit Milán's words, he never received a 
formal instruction in music: "siempre he sido tan inclinado a la musica/que 
puedo afirmar y dezir: que nunca tuue otro maestro sino a ella misma". This 
might be an exageration, but sometimes his counterpoint lends some credence to 
this statement.

We may speculate about the practice of borrowing but to me it is clear that 
when Milán used material upon which to compose he stated so plainly. There is 
however a point that is not subject to doubt: the influence (or rather the lack 
of it) of Castiglione upon Milán's Cortesano. This influence is limited to the 
fact that when he watched some ladies hold the book, he desired to be held as 
well in those lovely hands: "Hablandome con ciertas damas de Valencia: que 
tenian entre manos el Cortesano del conde Balthasar Castillon: Dixeron que me 
parescia del. Yo dixe. Mas querria ser vos conde, que no don Luys Milan: por 
estar en essas manos, donde yo querria estar. Respondieron las damas. Pues 
hazed vos vn otro: para que allegueys a veros en las manos que tanto os han 
dado de mano." Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal 
court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little 
in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, wa!
 s published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in 
which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time 
Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long 
time after.

I cannot help but remembering Diana Poulton's words about El Cortesano: "It is 
often stated that it is an imitation of Castiglione's work ... by those who 
have not read it".

Best wishes,
Antonio








 On Friday, 3 January 2020, 08:28:22 GMT-6, Ron Andrico  
wrote:


Dear Antonio:

I find this discussion intriguing.  While Milan was certainly a capable (if 
idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his published 
music may have at least been inspired by the work of others.  In fact, Milan 
did borrow heavily from Baldassare
 Castiglione’s Il Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali 
(undated) that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and 
available as early as Castiglione's book.

In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music was taught 
the rules of composing.  And while today we tend to measure a composer by the 
looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, there was a great deal of 
borrowing as a matter
 of course in the 16th century.  An anthologizer like Milan could very well 
have put his name on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that 
circulated as an unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique 
setting that showed off his dexterity
 with the many running quavers, an aspect we enjoy today.  In the 16th century 
either form would have been attributed solely to Milan because it was in his 
published book.

I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his cosmopolitan 
lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and put his stamp on it.

RA







From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 on behalf of Antonio Corona 


Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 

Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music any

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Dmitry

I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation implies a 
number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, untenable. Milan 
showed himself a competent composer in his other songs: I see no reason to 
brush this fact aside and look elsewhere.

Best wishes
Antonio








 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
 wrote:





 Dear Antonio,

I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's
madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly
too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps
as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that
they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that
he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.

Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Dear Dmitry
>
> You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by 
> Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.
>
> Cheers
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)
>
> On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
>> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per
>> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dmitry
>>
>> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>
>>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> About authorship:
>>>
>>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
>>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
>>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues
>>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e.
>>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
>>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria
>>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
>>>
>>> About the meaning of "componer":
>>>
>>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
>>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
>>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras
>>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
>>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.
>>>
>>> About the villancicos:
>>>
>>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y
>>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano
>>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian
>>> villancicos].
>>>
>>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y
>>> en portugues /y en ytaliano.
>>>
>>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y
>>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.
>>>
>>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun
>>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.
>>>
>>>
>>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano
>>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for
>>> singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as
>>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan
>>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia,
>>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?
>>>
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Thursday, 

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Dmitry

You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by 
Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.

Cheers
Antonio







 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
 wrote:





 Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)

On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per
> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>
> Cheers,
> Dmitry
>
> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>
>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without
>> basis.
>>
>> About authorship:
>>
>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues
>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e.
>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria
>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
>>
>> About the meaning of "componer":
>>
>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras
>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.
>>
>> About the villancicos:
>>
>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y
>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano
>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian
>> villancicos].
>>
>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y
>> en portugues /y en ytaliano.
>>
>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y
>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.
>>
>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun
>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.
>>
>>
>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano
>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for
>> singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as
>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan
>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia,
>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?
>>
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Are you sure?
>>>
>>> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy New Year,
>>>
>>> T*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>>>>
>>>> Happy New Year to all,
>>>> Antonio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A.
>>>> Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>>>>        [1]here.
>>>>        --Sarge
>>>> --
>>>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
>>>> 11132 Dell Ave
>>>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
>>>> Home phone:  707-820-1759
>>>> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
>>>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>>>>
>>>>        --
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>>        1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>>>>        2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>>>>        3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

You would do well not to assume that I would state something without basis.

About authorship:

Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] Compuesto por 
don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he me hallado vn libro hecho 
de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo 
tuuiese este libro perderia su valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que 
puede: Y si el me tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el 
mio/pues seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. 
Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran que no 
juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria que sus obras lo 
fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.

About the meaning of "componer":

Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en su ayre y 
compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y oues en todo remedan 
a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras son inuentadas por mi. las dos 
que se despues se siguen la sonada dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura 
sobre la sonada dellas es mia.

About the villancicos:

Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y tañer 
[...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano y en portugues y 
en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian villancicos].

Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y en 
portugues /y en ytaliano.

Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y portugues y 
sonetos en ytaliano.

Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun esta 
sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.


Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano  (1561) by 
Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for singing and playing 
his own works and not  those of somebody else, as well as the poetic 
interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan Fernández de Heredia in Las obras 
de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, assi temporales como espirituales (1562).








 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





 Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Are you sure?
>
> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
>
>
> Happy New Year,
>
> T*
>
>
> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>>
>> Happy New Year to all,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>    On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
>> wrote:
>>
>>      Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>>      [1]here.
>>      --Sarge
>> --
>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
>> 11132 Dell Ave
>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
>> Home phone:  707-820-1759
>> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>>
>>      --
>>
>> References
>>
>>      1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>>      2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>>      3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





 Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>
> Happy New Year to all,
> Antonio
>
>
>
>  On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
> wrote:
>
>    Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>    [1]here.
>    --Sarge
> --
> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
> 11132 Dell Ave
> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
> Home phone:  707-820-1759
> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>
>    --
>
> References
>
>    1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>    2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>    3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



 On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
 wrote:

   Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
  [1]here.
  --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

  --

References

  1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
  2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
  3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: De Visee

[Antonio Corona]

   Sor's words:
   Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was
   supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but
   very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can
   never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance
   is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the
   pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes,
   the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is
   necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many
   excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the
   nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had
   not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the
   time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the
   fingers acquired by a long habitude.
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
 __

   From: George Torres 
   To: Roman Turovsky 
   Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson
   ; Lute List ; Monica
   Hall 
   Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
   Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after
   meeting Aguado, who did play with nails.
   > On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Fernando Sor.
   > RT
   >
   >
   > On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote:
   >>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo
   player who
   >>explicitly played without fingernails?
   >>
   >>[1]Skickat frÃÆÃ ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÆÃ ¶r iPhone
   >>
   >>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson
   >><[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
   >>
   >>  Hear! hear!.
   >>
   >>  And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means
   that De
   >>
   >>  Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths
   start
   >>
   >>  Martyn
   >>
   >>  On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall
   >>
   >>  <[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >>
   >>  Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket
   -
   >>
   >>  that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
   >>
   >>  Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was
   given 500
   >>
   >>  Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
   >>
   >>  withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
   >>
   >>  Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of
   Savoy at
   >>
   >>  the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
   >>
   >>  We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
   >>
   >>  Monica
   >>
   >>  > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
   >>
   >>  <[1][3][4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >>
   >>  >
   >>
   >>  >
   >>
   >>  >Dear collective wisdom,
   >>
   >>  >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has
   been
   >>
   >>  around
   >>
   >>  >since  at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like
   Piccinini,
   >>
   >>  Corbetta
   >>
   >>  >(who we know had
   >>
   >>  >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and
   still
   >>pay
   >>
   >>  his
   >>
   >>  >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de
   VisÃÆ Ã ©e
   >>had
   >>
   >>  found
   >>
   >>  >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and
   tearing
   >>
   >>  their
   >>
   >>  >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
   >>
   >>  >
   >>
   >>  >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly,
   and
   >>
   >>  cleanly; In
   >>
   >>  >the manner that all small touches of the string may be
   schietto,
   >>
   >>  like
   >>
   >>  >pearl[s]"
   >>
   >>  >/Magnus
   >>
   >>  >
   >>
   >>  >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
   >>
   >>  ><[2][4][5]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
   >>
   >>  >  Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone
   document
   >>good
   >>
   >>  nail
   >>
   >>  >  polishing techniques that may have been used centuries
   ago? I
   >>
   >>  would
   >>
   >>  >  love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
   >>telescope
   >>
   >>  >lenses
   >>
   >>  >  and mirrors to razors would not work well on
   fingernails. The
   >>
   >>  chamois
   >>
   >>  >  stropping technique used by Segovia because there was
   not much
   >>
   >>  better
   >>
   >>  >  in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
   among
   >>
   >>  those
   >>
   >>  >who
   >>
   >>  >  play with nails.
   >>
   >>  >  A. John Mardinly, 

[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - Lachrimae

[Antonio Corona]

 __

   Dear Ron,
   Tears started to fall before Dowland published "Flow my tears". Have a
   look at "Come heavy sleep", published in the First Book of 1697.
   Best
   Antonio
   P.S. Of course I'm aware that the manuscript versions of the solo piece
   antedate the First Book.
   From: Ron Andrico 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2018, 7:49
   Subject: [LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Lachrimae
 We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, continuing our series on
 Lachrimae with a discussion of the source.
 [1][1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM
 Ron & Donna
 --
   References
 1. [2]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM
   2. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2

[Antonio Corona]

 __

   From: Sean Smith 
   To: lute 
   Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018, 12:41
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2
   Dear Sean
   Don`t worry, Don Quijote de la Mancha couldn't hear a difference
   either, back in 1615. When he listened to Sanson Carrasco playing in a
   forest he told Sancho:
   Pero escucha, que a lo que parece templando esta vn laud, o viguela, y
   segun escupe, y se desembaraça el pecho, deue prepararse para cantar
   algo.
   Best.
   Antonio
 If we cannot hear the differences between the two instruments from a
 recorded performance, what conclusions should we draw? Is the
 difference more apparent when we are in the same room? Should we
 suspect they have been mixed (deliberately? inadvertently?) to make
 them more similar?
 Sean

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear Tristan
   You ask us to speak up, so I shall:
   In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else.
   Therefore I cannot support your ideas.
   Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is
   the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or
   reply (this is geting boresome).
   Antonio
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
   Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
   Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments,
   instead those from the eristics bin?
   So, officially I ask the list:
   Does anyone of you support anything I say?
   There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are
   playing the tracks.
   Don't be afraid to speak up.
   It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please
   ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically
   flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or
   worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or
   purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is
   not
   a scientific magazine.
   Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
   >Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
   >spam.  He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished
   to
   >put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard
   evidence
   >rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether
   the
   >whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..
   >So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through
   the
   >thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like
   you and
   >Jurgen Frenz.  I too see no reason to change my final comment to
   >Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
   >continue.
   >Martyn Hodgson
   >
   ---
   >-
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >  2 Apr at 12:10 PM
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
   >Thank you for this.  As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
   >because there
   >appears to be some similarities, various European early musical
   forms
   >must
   >have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by
   Monteverdi
   >and
   >others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
   >It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
   >properly developed
   >paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
   >seeking to have
   >it published? - and when will it appear?
   >Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
   >logic employed
   >in any recognised objective  analysis: - correlation does not
   imply
   >causation.  A
   >mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you
   will
   >also be aware,
   >a questionable cause logical fallacy.  No doubt you will,
   therefore,
   >rigorously
   >address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming
   paper.
   >Martyn Hodgson
   >
   __
   >
   >From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com>
   >To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
   >Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
   >Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
   >  Dear Tristan,
   >  The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
   >  In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on
   exact
   >  points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called
   Swarakshetras.
   >The
   >  maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22
   of
   >  them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for
   each
   >  Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot
   operate
   >with
   >  in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
   >  Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during
   the
   >  mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
   >  I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if
   Raags
   >  and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
   >  probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in
   theory
   >  treatises.
   >  You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a
   deep
   >  musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is
   EXTENSIVE
   >  direct 

[LUTE] Re: another lute nativity - 6 courses in 1475?

[Antonio Corona]

   Piero della Francesca .
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018, 11:46
   Subject: [LUTE] another lute nativity - 6 courses in 1475?
   This nativity has two very big lutes in it. Also, it seems the right
   lute has 11 pegs. Maybe this has been the subject of discussion
   already.
   Anyway, the lutes seem to have very elaborate 3d roses.
   [1]https://www.wga.hu/art/p/piero/3/13nativ3.jpg
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.wga.hu/art/p/piero/3/13nativ3.jpg
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.

[Antonio Corona]

   Oops ...
   I meant: Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself, regarding the
   origins of the chacona, ciaccona, etc.
   Best regards to everyone
   Antonio, amused.
 __

   From: Antonio Corona <abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>;
   "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 19:17
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of
   Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.
   __
 From: Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
 To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 17:08
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of
 Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.
 Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself.
 "After having talked with my former professor of musicology, I will
 first
 try to focus on the Ciacona origin, which seems a) most easy to show
 and
 will b) possible to cover in a handy format.2
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.

[Antonio Corona]

 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 17:08
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of
   Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.
   Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself.
   "After having talked with my former professor of musicology, I will
   first
   try to focus on the Ciacona origin, which seems a) most easy to show
   and
   will b) possible to cover in a handy format.2

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Calling all lute nerds...

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear Martin
   I cannot recall offhand any quote with the exact meaning you mention.
   The closest I can think of is from Bermudo (Declaracion de
   Instrumentos, 1555, fol. xcix-verso), where he deals with the process
   of intabulation and suggests intabulating the vocal works from several
   composers (Tellez, Morales and Gombert). As a matter of fact, he does
   not equate here the "fantasia" with the composed work as found in the
   vihuela books, but rather as the product of the budding vihuelist's
   imagination and advices against indulging in such a practice, otherwise
   the beginner might end paying with "bad air":
   "It is a sore mistake for the beginners to try to come up with their
   fantasia when they start to play. Even if they would know counterpoint
   (unless it is as good as that of the aforesaid musicians) they should
   not play "fantasia" so early in order not to develop "bad ayre" [mal
   ayre].
   Milan, on the other hand, considers that the pieces in his book should
   be called "fantasias" because they proceed form the author's fancy.
   Fuenllana does not comment about the fantasias characteristics other
   than comparing them with the "obras compuestas" (i.e. intabulations of
   vocal polyphony), and even states that if his own fantasias may have a
   "certain odour of composed works", it is due to the many such works he
   has seen and intabulated; his advice to the beginner is to study and
   play "obras compuestas" if he desires to truly learn music.
   Hope this helps. Best regards,
   Antonio
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Lute List 
   Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2018, 12:22
   Subject: [LUTE] Calling all lute nerds...
   Dear Collective Wisdom,
   Can someone point me in the correct direction for the quote (from
   Bermudo? Milan? someone else entirely?) who said roughly (in
   translation) "but the highest form of this art is to play fantasia" or
   something like that, meaning to take a theme or themes from vocal music
   and use them to create an instrumental piece.
   Merci d'avance,
   Martin
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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References

   1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco or da Crema

[Antonio Corona]

   Not quite, at least in Spain. The Royal/Imperial "privilegios" granted
   to Valderrábano, Pisador, Fuenllana and Daza were not adressed to the
   printers, but to the composers themselves (or whoever had their power
   of attorney). In fact, there is some evidence of a pirate edition of
   Fuenllana's Orphenica Lyra by MartÃn de Montesdoca, the printer of the
   original edition ...
   Best wishes
   Antonio
 __

   From: Alain Veylit 
   To: Lutelist 
   Sent: Wednesday, 21 February 2018, 11:30
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco or da Crema
   Privileges were granted to the printers, not the authors/composers, who
   usually got none of the profits of sales. In fact copyright laws were
   created because of this very fact, in the 18th century. Pirated copies
   of course included the privilege page and the name of the authorized
   publisher - think about xeroxing a book and selling it as the
   authorized
   copy... It's a fascinating history with many twists that has been going
   on for as long as publishing has been in existence. In 16th century
   England, the King's printers were French, and pirated copies of
   official
   documents by English printers were common and an act of patriotism ...
   -
   Authors relied on subscriptions and patronage to publish their works,
   or
   just plain old vanity publishing at their own cost. If I remember
   correctly, very few pieces published with an attribution to Henry
   Purcell were actually by that composer: pieces with his name on them
   sold better than those attributed to Anonymous. In other words, authors
   and composers had  little to zero control over their works. Yet,
   without
   unauthorized manuscript copies and piracies, we would know very little
   about the lute repertoire of the time, so perhaps we should be thankful
   to those early hackers...

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[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear Jean-Marie
   The "Mexican vihuela" (mainly used by Mariachis and in the "tierra
   caliente" area) is actually a strummed instrument more akin to a
   chitarra battente: five courses, vaulted back, etc. Incidentally, using
   "vihuela" to name the guitar is a commonplace among the gauchos,
   nothing outstanding there.
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
 __

   From: Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
   To: Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com>; Antonio Corona
   <abcor...@yahoo.com>
   Cc: G. C. <kalei...@gmail.com>; 'Lute List' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 7:53
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
   Contemporary Mexican folk song "De la arena nace el agua" !!!
   "La vihuela" here to be understood like a guitar...
   ([1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_vihuela)
   All the best,
   Jean-Marie
   --
   >"Se me revento la prima,
   >la segunda y la tercera
   >con los rizos de mi amada
   >voy a encordar mi vihuela..."
   >
   >An interesting piece of literary iconography, isn't it?))
   >RT
   >
   >Sent from my iPhone
   >
   >> On Jan 22, 2018, at 6:46 AM, Antonio Corona
   <[2]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >>
   >>  Dear G.
   >>  It just might, but I'd rather stay with the categorical statements
   >>  rather than just entertaining a possibility.
   >>  Here are a few titbits:
   >>  A character from a play desires to play the vihuela; his servant
   >>  remarks that "no podras seà ±or taà ±er/ porque le falta la prima /
   y
   >>  estan las bozes gastadas" (Comedia Himenea in Bartolomà © de Torres
   >>  Naharro's, Propalladia, Naples, 1517). This vihuela is not lacking
   two
   >>  primas ...
   >>  A riddle by Pedro del Pozo about the vihuela (Cancionero, ms. 1547)
   >>  fastens on the gut strings, and likens them to eleven dead:
   (Pasando
   >>  por una huerta / vi una casa muy escura, / de muy estraà ±a hechura
   / un
   >>  laà §o hecho a la puerta. / Onze muertos ende estauan / un bivo que
   les
   >>  herÃa ... ). Eleven strings for twelve pegs?
   >>  An allegoy about temperance: "Queriendo venir de encima / el taÃ
   ±edor
   >>  sin segundo, / no hallo aun que se estima / en la vihela del mundo
   /
   >>  templada mas que la prima" (Jorge de Montemayor, Las obras,
   Antwerp,
   >>  1554).  The reference to the "player without second" would be
   pointless
   >>  with two primas ...
   >>  A poet complains about his grief but nevertheless acknowledges  tha
   he
   >>  finsd consolation in weeping, "Como aquel que con cautela / afloxa
   para
   >>  otro dia / la prima de la vihuela" (Antonio de Villegas,
   Inventario,
   >>  Medina del Campo,, 1565). Just one  string to loosen ...
   >>  An allegory about faith and sin; if faith is broken: "ni mas ni
   menos
   >>  como en la vihuela, rompida la prima, auque las demas cuerdas
   queden en
   >>  su punto, la musica queda manca" (Esteban de Salazar, Veynte
   discursos
   >>  sobre el Credo, Granada, 1577). Nothing here about two broken
   strings
   >>  ...
   >>  "En vna vihuela, instrumento de musica, aunque ay muchas cuerdas,
   todas
   >>  estan apareadas de dos en dos, vna no mas esta sola sin igual, que
   es
   >>  la prima, que esta sin compaà ±ia" (Phillipe Diez, Marial de la
   >>  sacratisima virgen, Salamanca, 1595). No further comment needed
   here.
   >>  In an allegory about how our body should be as welll tuned as
   vihuela:
   >>  "A de estar nuestro subjeto tan concertado para tener buena salud,
   como
   >>  como una vihuela bien templada para que suene bien al oydo y no
   haga
   >>  disonancia, porque si las segundas, o la prima  hazen dissonancia
   >>  sonara mal y no se podra oyr" (Juan de las Ruelas, Hermosura
   corporal
   >>  de la Madre de Dios, Sevilla, 1621). Seconds: plural; prima:
   singular.
   >>  "Prima es la cuerda primera y mas delgada de los instrumentos como
   la
   >>  vihuela y la guitarra" (Sebastià ¡n de Covarrubias, Tesoro de la
   lengua
   >>  castellana o espaà ±ola, Madrid, 1611). Note that it states "the
   first",
   >>  in singular.
   >>  "Los musicos mas diestros, doblan las cuerdas en los instrumentos
   >>  muchas vezes, pero la prima jamas ha de ser mas que vna" (CristÃ
   ³bal de
   >>  Fonseca, Primera parte de la vida de Cristo, Madrid, 1622). Never
   more
   >>  than one prima ...
   

[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear G.
   It just might, but I'd rather stay with the categorical statements
   rather than just entertaining a possibility.
   Here are a few titbits:
   A character from a play desires to play the vihuela; his servant
   remarks that "no podras señor tañer/ porque le falta la prima / y
   estan las bozes gastadas" (Comedia Himenea in Bartolomé de Torres
   Naharro's, Propalladia, Naples, 1517). This vihuela is not lacking two
   primas ...
   A riddle by Pedro del Pozo about the vihuela (Cancionero, ms. 1547)
   fastens on the gut strings, and likens them to eleven dead: (Pasando
   por una huerta / vi una casa muy escura, / de muy estraña hechura / un
   laço hecho a la puerta. / Onze muertos ende estauan / un bivo que les
   herÃa ... ). Eleven strings for twelve pegs?
   An allegoy about temperance: "Queriendo venir de encima / el tañedor
   sin segundo, / no hallo aun que se estima / en la vihela del mundo /
   templada mas que la prima" (Jorge de Montemayor, Las obras, Antwerp,
   1554).  The reference to the "player without second" would be pointless
   with two primas ...
   A poet complains about his grief but nevertheless acknowledges  tha he
   finsd consolation in weeping, "Como aquel que con cautela / afloxa para
   otro dia / la prima de la vihuela" (Antonio de Villegas, Inventario,
   Medina del Campo,, 1565). Just one  string to loosen ...
   An allegory about faith and sin; if faith is broken: "ni mas ni menos
   como en la vihuela, rompida la prima, auque las demas cuerdas queden en
   su punto, la musica queda manca" (Esteban de Salazar, Veynte discursos
   sobre el Credo, Granada, 1577). Nothing here about two broken strings
   ...
   "En vna vihuela, instrumento de musica, aunque ay muchas cuerdas, todas
   estan apareadas de dos en dos, vna no mas esta sola sin igual, que es
   la prima, que esta sin compañia" (Phillipe Diez, Marial de la
   sacratisima virgen, Salamanca, 1595). No further comment needed here.
   In an allegory about how our body should be as welll tuned as vihuela:
   "A de estar nuestro subjeto tan concertado para tener buena salud, como
   como una vihuela bien templada para que suene bien al oydo y no haga
   disonancia, porque si las segundas, o la prima  hazen dissonancia
   sonara mal y no se podra oyr" (Juan de las Ruelas, Hermosura corporal
   de la Madre de Dios, Sevilla, 1621). Seconds: plural; prima: singular.
   "Prima es la cuerda primera y mas delgada de los instrumentos como la
   vihuela y la guitarra" (Sebastián de Covarrubias, Tesoro de la lengua
   castellana o española, Madrid, 1611). Note that it states "the first",
   in singular.
   "Los musicos mas diestros, doblan las cuerdas en los instrumentos
   muchas vezes, pero la prima jamas ha de ser mas que vna" (Cristóbal de
   Fonseca, Primera parte de la vida de Cristo, Madrid, 1622). Never more
   than one prima ...
   Another religious allegory: "Ni el tañedor quando templa la vihuela
   dexara boluiendo la clauija, de subir la cuerda, y estirarla, y
   estirarla, hata que vea, segun el arte, que esta proporcionada con la
   prima (por la cual se templan las otras)" (Miguel Angel Almenara,
   Pensamientos literales y morales sobre los evangelios ..., Valencia,
   1623). Interesting to learn that it is from the single prima that the
   rest of the strings are tuned.
   Antonio Ferrer calls Virgin Mary "la prima en la vihuela del universo"
   (Arte de conocer y agradar a Jesus, Orihuela, 1631). It would be rather
   heretic to consider the possibility of two virgins ...
   There are plenty more references and, since there seems to be a general
   agreement among the writers of the time, who am I to contradict them?
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
     __

   From: G. C. <kalei...@gmail.com>
   To: Antonio Corona <abcor...@yahoo.com>
   Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 4:23
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
   Hola Antonio,
   wouldn't the fact that there are 12 pegs indicate the possibility of
   DSC, even though it's perhaps not mentioned in the litterature? Why
   would they go through the trouble to put an extra peg in just for
   decoration? It wouldn't have been put there for the purpose of a 7th
   single bourdon, would it?
   Saludos
   G.
   On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Antonio Corona
   <[1]abcor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
   Dear G.
   I'd love to know about the evidence about different usages for the
   vihuela.
   Best wishes
   Antonio

   --

References

   1. mailto:abcor...@yahoo.com


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[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear G.
   I'd love to know about the evidence about different usages for the
   vihuela.
   Best wishes
   Antonio
 __

   From: G. C. <kalei...@gmail.com>
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 2:40
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
 I think, that one should be careful not to generalize. Like today
 (where some even play with singles on ALL courses), there were
 different uses also in the olden days. And look at the later 6 string
 guitar, which even had double strung chanterelles for a period in
   time.
 G.
 On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Antonio Corona
 <[1][1]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   Dear Edward,
   Despite what the pegs on the vihuelas suggest, I've found
   plenty
   of
   evidence that it was strung with a single first. We need to
   review our
   ideas on the subject of vihuela stringing ...
   Best wishes
   Antonio
 
   __
   From: Edward Martin <[2][2]edvihuel...@gmail.com>
   To: lute net <[3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2018, 14:56
   Subject: [LUTE] Double first courses (chanterelles)
 Dear Collective wisdom,
 When did double first courses cease to exist on renaissance
   lutes?
   We
 know from early on, and from the middle ages, they were
   double
   strung
 on every course, including the treble.  In terms of
   iconographical
 evidence, I looked at the Caravaggio "Lute Player", an the
   subject
   (he
 or she) is playing a 6 course lute, double strung throughout,
   including
 the treble, and there are 6 pegs on the upper and lower side
   of
   the
   peg
 box.  Caravaggio's birth- death dates are 1571Ã ¢1610.  So,
   perhaps
 his
   subject had an old fashioned lute for the time, or perhaps
   double-strung first courses lasted longer than we may think.
   Vihuelas also her double strung in the first courses, at least
   the
   instruments show 12 pegs for the 6-course vihuela.
   I tried to look up some information to answer my questions, but
   I
 could
   not find any in the sources I used.
   So, my questions are:
   1.  When did the double first courses stop, or go out of vogue?
 Was
   it universal, or did some countries / nationalities stop the
 practice
   earlier or later than others.?  Did Francesco use a double
   first
   course?
   2.  Why did the double chanterelle stop?  We know that later,
 lutes
   only had pegs and pegboxes to accommodate a single treble.
   3.  What evidence is there to support the "when and why" of
   this
   practice?
   4.  If a double chanterelle was the norm for a great part of
   the
   renaissance, why is it that it is so infrequently that we see a
 modern
   player doing this practice?
   Thanks in advance.
   ed
   --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
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 --
   References
 1. mailto:[6]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 2. mailto:[7]edvihuel...@gmail.com
 3. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 5. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear Edward,
   Despite what the pegs on the vihuelas suggest, I've found plenty of
   evidence that it was strung with a single first. We need to review our
   ideas on the subject of vihuela stringing ...
   Best wishes
   Antonio
 __

   From: Edward Martin 
   To: lute net 
   Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2018, 14:56
   Subject: [LUTE] Double first courses (chanterelles)
 Dear Collective wisdom,
 When did double first courses cease to exist on renaissance lutes?
   We
 know from early on, and from the middle ages, they were double strung
 on every course, including the treble.  In terms of iconographical
 evidence, I looked at the Caravaggio "Lute Player", an the subject
   (he
 or she) is playing a 6 course lute, double strung throughout,
   including
 the treble, and there are 6 pegs on the upper and lower side of the
   peg
 box.  Caravaggio's birth- death dates are 1571â1610.  So, perhaps
   his
 subject had an old fashioned lute for the time, or perhaps
 double-strung first courses lasted longer than we may think.
 Vihuelas also her double strung in the first courses, at least the
 instruments show 12 pegs for the 6-course vihuela.
 I tried to look up some information to answer my questions, but I
   could
 not find any in the sources I used.
 So, my questions are:
 1.  When did the double first courses stop, or go out of vogue?  Was
 it universal, or did some countries / nationalities stop the practice
 earlier or later than others.?  Did Francesco use a double first
 course?
 2.  Why did the double chanterelle stop?  We know that later, lutes
 only had pegs and pegboxes to accommodate a single treble.
 3.  What evidence is there to support the "when and why" of this
 practice?
 4.  If a double chanterelle was the norm for a great part of the
 renaissance, why is it that it is so infrequently that we see a
   modern
 player doing this practice?
 Thanks in advance.
 ed
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments

[Antonio Corona]

   Oops, sorry I misremembered the hold signs.
 __

   From: Rainer 
   To: Lute net 
   Sent: Monday, 6 March 2017, 6:47
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
   I am not at all interested in discussing Wikipedia's policy.
   I simply wanted to know if anybody knows any printed tablature before
   barley with ornaments.
   And I really do not want to receive every reply twice.
   Rainer
   On 06.03.2017 13:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:
   > Wikipedia has strict rules against original research, and all
   information
   > it permits has to externally documented with reliable scholarly
   sources.
   > RT
   >
   >
   > On 3/6/2017 7:31 AM, Rainer wrote:
   >> Of course, Wiki is unreliable.
   >> And - of course - there is no reason to believe the citation is
   incorrect.
   >>
   >> However, why do you think I have asked for prints before 1596?
   >>
   >> Barley has ornaments.
   >>
   >> Rainer
   >>
   >> As usual you have pressed reply to all :)
   >>
   >> On 06.03.2017 12:32, Ron Andrico wrote:
   >>>While Wikipedia is untrustworthy in most respects, in this case
   it may
   >>>be correct.  While ornaments appear liberally in manuscript
   sources,
   >>>and there are various indications for right-hand fingering and
   >>>left-hand holds in earlier typeset prints of lute music,
   Vallet's
   >>>tablatures were engraved in copper, a very costly procedure that
   >>>probably contributed to his personal financial ruin.  But this
   was the
   >>>only means of adding the extraordinarily detailed slurs,
   fingerings and
   >>>ornament signs to his printed tablatures.  Since the statement
   >>>attributed to Herr Neumann is qualified with "may have been",
   there is
   >>>no reason to doubt the claim.
   >>>
   >>>RA
   >>> __
   >>>
   >>>From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
   >>>of Rainer <[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   >>>Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:49 AM
   >>>To: Lute net
   >>>Subject: [LUTE] Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
   >>>
   >>>Dear lute netters,
   >>>According to Wikipedia
   >>>"According to Frederick Neumann,[2] Vallet may have been among
   the
   >>>first to introduce ornaments into lute tablature."
   >>>Of course this is nonsense.
   >>>Anyway, does anybody know of printed tablature with ornaments
   before
   >>>1596?
   >>>Rainer
   >>>To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>>[1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
   >>>www.cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
   getting
   >>>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do
   I get
   >>>off the lute mail list?
   >>>
   >>>--
   >>>
   >>> References
   >>>
   >>>1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >>>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear Rainer
   Antonio Rotta, Intabolatura de lauto di lo eccelentissimo musicho
   messer Antonio Rotta di recercari, motetti, balli, ... Libro primo,
   Venice, 1546.
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
   P.S. Sorry for the reply to all, my old computer is quite temperamental
   about these matters.
 __

   From: Rainer 
   To: Lute net 
   Sent: Monday, 6 March 2017, 6:47
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
   I am not at all interested in discussing Wikipedia's policy.
   I simply wanted to know if anybody knows any printed tablature before
   barley with ornaments.
   And I really do not want to receive every reply twice.
   Rainer
   On 06.03.2017 13:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:
   > Wikipedia has strict rules against original research, and all
   information
   > it permits has to externally documented with reliable scholarly
   sources.
   > RT
   >
   >
   > On 3/6/2017 7:31 AM, Rainer wrote:
   >> Of course, Wiki is unreliable.
   >> And - of course - there is no reason to believe the citation is
   incorrect.
   >>
   >> However, why do you think I have asked for prints before 1596?
   >>
   >> Barley has ornaments.
   >>
   >> Rainer
   >>
   >> As usual you have pressed reply to all :)
   >>
   >> On 06.03.2017 12:32, Ron Andrico wrote:
   >>>While Wikipedia is untrustworthy in most respects, in this case
   it may
   >>>be correct.  While ornaments appear liberally in manuscript
   sources,
   >>>and there are various indications for right-hand fingering and
   >>>left-hand holds in earlier typeset prints of lute music,
   Vallet's
   >>>tablatures were engraved in copper, a very costly procedure that
   >>>probably contributed to his personal financial ruin.  But this
   was the
   >>>only means of adding the extraordinarily detailed slurs,
   fingerings and
   >>>ornament signs to his printed tablatures.  Since the statement
   >>>attributed to Herr Neumann is qualified with "may have been",
   there is
   >>>no reason to doubt the claim.
   >>>
   >>>RA
   >>> __
   >>>
   >>>From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
   >>>of Rainer <[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   >>>Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:49 AM
   >>>To: Lute net
   >>>Subject: [LUTE] Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
   >>>
   >>>Dear lute netters,
   >>>According to Wikipedia
   >>>"According to Frederick Neumann,[2] Vallet may have been among
   the
   >>>first to introduce ornaments into lute tablature."
   >>>Of course this is nonsense.
   >>>Anyway, does anybody know of printed tablature with ornaments
   before
   >>>1596?
   >>>Rainer
   >>>To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>>[1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
   >>>www.cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
   getting
   >>>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do
   I get
   >>>off the lute mail list?
   >>>
   >>>--
   >>>
   >>> References
   >>>
   >>>1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >>>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Hidalgo Fret pattern

[Antonio Corona]

   It is an engraving from JosA(c) GarcAa Hidalgo`s Principios para
   estudiar el nobilAsimo y real arte de la pintura (Madrid, 1693),
   intending to show in perspective a rule on how to fret instruments
   (unfortunately the proportions are wrong).
   There is a modern edition, Valencia, Universidad PolitA(c)cnica, 2006.
   Best wishes for 2016.
 __

   From: Andreas Schlegel 
   To: lute list 
   Sent: Friday, 1 January 2016, 4:00
   Subject: [LUTE] Hidalgo Fret pattern
   Dear collected wisdom,
   I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of
   Music, London:
   [1]https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514
   [2]http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670
   Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving?
   Is there a translation of the text?
   Thanks a lot!
   All the best,
   Andreas
   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   [3]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514
   2. http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670
   3. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear friends,
   Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out,
   supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with
   Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read
   Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in
   Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad
   de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in
   dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things
   Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's
   contributions to the matter.
   There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain
   than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of
   the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the
   matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now
   can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in
   Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but
   the lute.
   With best wishes,
   Antonio
 __

   From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net
   To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert
   seifertm...@att.net
   Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
   Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of
   the rather silly myth from his work,  A History of the Lute, p.221
   Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain:
   At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist
   in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500.
   Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th
   century
   were called 'violero' in the 16th.
   -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's
   worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict?
   (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in
   1999
   and Vihuelist in 2002).
   Dan
   On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute
because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth.
Monica
   
   
- Original Message - From: Mark Seifert
   [1]seifertm...@att.net
To: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke
[3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld
   [4]dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob
MacKillop [5]robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner
[6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen
   [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
Cc: 'Lutelist' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
   
   
 Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most
   fascinating
 topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof
Brittany
 Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally
 expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important
 date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was
   imposed
 in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from
their
 ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She
 didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like
 innocent bystanders.  I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the
 lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute
   belly
 reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a
   pregnant
 woman, heaven forbid.
 In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of
 History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting
decades
 before England and Germany (and America).  Maybe the adverse
effects of
 eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid
   of
 all their witches wouldn't improve anything.
 I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a
   minimum
 wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener
 Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a
 Boston Brahmin family).  Was sitting on the cold concrete floor
dusting
 a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose
 binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the
   date
 1728  in silver Gothic letters.  Shocked and amazed, I pulled it
out,
 opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing
   in
 incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen.  Though I was
 studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it
   covered
 how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches!
   There
 were  columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I
   suspect
 the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the
   century
 caused Germans 

[LUTE] Re: Narvaez

[Antonio Corona]

   Just for the record, Narvaez' music appears in lute sources, Cf.
   Willoughby Lute Music, A Fantaci de Narboyes. And yes itA's for the
   vihuela, but I'm pretty sure the vihuela repertoire was also played on
   the lute. There is a book on the subject forthcoming, El laA-od en la
   EspaA+-a cristiana, but I'm afraid it is, again, in Spanish.
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 7:36
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez
   If it is any help to you I can send you a copy of my handwritten
   summary of
   Narvaez' instructions.
   Also I think Charles Jacobs' editions of Milan's El Maestro and
   Fuenllana's
   Orpheica lyra include English translations of their instructions which
   cover
   the same ground and are more comprehensive.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: sterling price [1]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   To: Lutelist Net [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:38 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Narvaez
 Hi all--Can someone direct me to an English translation of the
 instructions in the first book of Delphin de Musica of Narvaez?
 Yes, I know it is hard to believe but I recently got a nice
   renaissance
 lute and I am exploring the six course music for the first time. I
 can't believe how much fun it is. And yes I know Narvaez is for
 viheula...
 Sterling
   
 --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Narvaez

[Antonio Corona]

   Oops, that should be Willoughby Lute Book ...
 __

   From: Antonio Corona abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; sterling price
   spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 11:41
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez
 Just for the record, Narvaez' music appears in lute sources, Cf.
 Willoughby Lute Music, A Fantaci de Narboyes. And yes itA's for the
 vihuela, but I'm pretty sure the vihuela repertoire was also played
   on
 the lute. There is a book on the subject forthcoming, El laA-od en la
 EspaA+-a cristiana, but I'm afraid it is, again, in Spanish.
 Best wishes,
 Antonio
   __
 From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: sterling price [2]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 7:36
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez
 If it is any help to you I can send you a copy of my handwritten
 summary of
 Narvaez' instructions.
 Also I think Charles Jacobs' editions of Milan's El Maestro and
 Fuenllana's
 Orpheica lyra include English translations of their instructions
   which
 cover
 the same ground and are more comprehensive.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: sterling price [1][4]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 To: Lutelist Net [2][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:38 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Narvaez
   Hi all--Can someone direct me to an English translation of the
   instructions in the first book of Delphin de Musica of Narvaez?
   Yes, I know it is hard to believe but I recently got a nice
 renaissance
   lute and I am exploring the six course music for the first time. I
   can't believe how much fun it is. And yes I know Narvaez is for
   viheula...
   Sterling
 
   --
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[7]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 2. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Seven courses versus eight.

[Antonio Corona]

   the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the Vihuela
   Grande
   
   Best wishes to all
   Antonio
   On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
   mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
   The version in the Folger MS (the battle gallyard) is written for 7c
   lute with the 7th at D.
   Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
   M
   On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
Ed-
   
It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low F, it's in low
position  chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to finger on
the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this note
   in
many places where he could; as if the piece was originally conceived
for a 7 course, low D instrument first.
   
Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the Varietie) - a
veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob. on a 7
course w/low D.
   
Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my sleep.
Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi Fox's
   jazz
guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my hands,
   and
shaking her head in confusement.
   
Dan
   
On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you want to
pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up an
octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's faces
   when
they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always said,
a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
   
On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net
   wrote:
   
The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses- but
   since
my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension cranked up
to F,  I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...) needs to
have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
[3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
[4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   
   
   
   
   
--
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   
   
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References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.avast.com/

[LUTE] Re: Seven courses versus eight.

[Antonio Corona]

   the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the Vihuela
   Grande
   
   Best wishes to all
   Antonio
   On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
   mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
   The version in the Folger MS (the battle gallyard) is written for 7c
   lute with the 7th at D.
   Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
   M
   On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
Ed-
   
It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low F, it's in low
position  chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to finger on
the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this note
   in
many places where he could; as if the piece was originally conceived
for a 7 course, low D instrument first.
   
Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the Varietie) - a
veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob. on a 7
course w/low D.
   
Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my sleep.
Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi Fox's
   jazz
guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my hands,
   and
shaking her head in confusement.
   
Dan
   
On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you want to
pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up an
octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's faces
   when
they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always said,
a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
   
On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net
   wrote:
   
The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses- but
   since
my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension cranked up
to F,  I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...) needs to
have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
[3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
[4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   
   
   
   
   
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References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.avast.com/

[LUTE] Re: Seven course vihuela.

[Antonio Corona]

range of the instrument kept this idea in the theoretical realm only.
   
A number of players were remembered as great players of the 7 course
vihuela, including Luis de Guzman (apparently the composer of a lost
book of vihuela music. Damn!), Pedro de Madrid, the great composer
Francisco Guerrero, and a few others.
   
Dr. Ward's book is a must read, must own book for any serious vihuela
player.
   
Dan
   
On 10/16/2014 7:46 AM, Antonio Corona wrote:
   the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the Vihuela
   Grande
   
   Best wishes to all
   Antonio
   On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
   [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
   The version in the Folger MS (the battle gallyard) is written
for 7c
   lute with the 7th at D.
   Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
   M
   On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
Ed-
   
It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low F, it's
in low
position  chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to
finger on
the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this
note
   in
many places where he could; as if the piece was originally
conceived
for a 7 course, low D instrument first.
   
Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the Varietie) -
   a
veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob.
on a 7
course w/low D.
   
Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my
sleep.
Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi
   Fox's
   jazz
guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my
   hands,
   and
shaking her head in confusement.
   
Dan
   
On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you
want to
pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up
   an
octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's
   faces
   when
they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always
said,
a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
   
On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld
   [1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net
   wrote:
   
The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses-
   but
   since
my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension
cranked up
to F,  I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...)
needs to
have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2][3]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
[3][4]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
[4][5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   
   
   
   
   
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References
   
   1. mailto:[8]dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. [9]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. [10]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. [11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. [13]http://www.avast.com/
   
   
   
   
   

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References

   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   3. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   4. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://www.avast.com/
   8. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   9. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
  10. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
  11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. http://www.avast.com/

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Antonio Corona]

   Dear All,
   This forum, as I understand it, is devoted to the lute and all
   pertinent topics. The contributions of Julian Bream are an important
   part of the history of the lute in the 20th century. Or should we
   consider that there is no history of the lute after the 18th century?
   I, for one, have the deepest admiration for figures such as Dolmetsh or
   Poulton, and of course Bream, with whom I recognize a debt and who hold
   my deepest admiration.
   Antonio Corona (who hasn't played the guitar for more the 20 years)
   On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 11:06, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net
   wrote:
   there were some jazzcats in the 16th century writing cool stuff for
   7-courses too.
   Terzi Van Eps. My top R-lute student and I are doing his
   frozen-in-time-for-our-benefit improvisations. The classical
   guitarist I alternate Saturday afternoon gigs with has a John Coltrane
   arrangement or two in his bag of tricks. That seems to be a more common
   phenomenon for many of us Classically trained non-improvisers; to
   take (or make) a few complete Jazz compositions and play them as
   composed, discrete pieces- just material in our regular repertoire.
   Ironically, as I've gotten better at the actual lute music over a
   lifetime of immersion, I do add some improv bits- and sections- to some
   of the lute stuff that seems to want it, but play my modern pieces
   note-for-note. Need another lifetime or three to really get some of
   this stuff down properly. Jody Fischer is a superb Jazz guitarist out
   of the L.A. area (fingers/pick, single line/harmony- complete package
   musician) who may still be posting on-line guitar lessons. Very
   worthwhile for all guitarists/lutenists, particularly for nuts 'n bolts
   stuff- like how to work into a difficult chord fingering; first getting
   comfy with the chord itself, then how to move into  out of it
   fluently.
   Dan
   On 12/8/2013 1:16 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
 
   
   
 Playing melody, harmony and bass for a jazz guitarist was not
   new
 when Joe Pass did it so superbly. Check out George Van Eps (7
   string
 jazz guitar), Charlie Byrd (jazz on a classical guitar), Jim
   Hall,
 Buddy Fite, Chet Atkins (solo guitar version of Souza's Stars
   and
 Stripes Forever complete with piccolo obligato), Jimmy Wyble
   (The
 Art of Two Line Improvisation) etc., etc.
   
   
   I know, hence my quotation marks around the word new, but it was
   Joe's
   selling line. Btw, I think before George van Eps did his thing
   (his
   method is availbale as pdf online, if you can't find it I'll mail
   it to
   people who are interested. Out-of print as far as I know) there
   were
   some jazzcats in the 16th century writing cool stuff for 7-courses
   too.
   History does have a tendency ...
   David
   
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[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana dots

[Antonio Corona]

   They are just a visual guide to align the numbers with the values
   above. He does the same (as also the rest of the vihuelists do) in the
   pieces for six course vihuela (as well as the ones for five-course
   instrument).
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
 __

   From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net
   To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Monday, 23 May 2011, 19:58
   Subject: [LUTE] Fuenllana dots
   I've been looking over Fuenllana's fantasias for 4 cs guitar (Orphenica
   Lyra
   ff 163-166).  He occasionally places dots above notes (within the
   staff).
   Anybody know what they signify?
   Thanks,
   Leonard Williams
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[LUTE] Re: Euonimo and Aristono

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Monica,

Strabone, probably via Alciato, Rippa and Kirscher. Have a look at:

http://www.examenapium.it/kircher/pag/00-01.htm


Best regards,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 15:59:09
Subject: [LUTE] Euonimo and Aristono

   Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the
   story of Euonimo.   Apparently he was competing with Aristono playing
   the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us).  The
   Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which
   produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a
   statue was erected to him.

   Does anyone know where the story comes from?

   Regards

   Monica

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[LUTE] Re: Lachrimae pavan

[Antonio Corona]

All right, I will not ...




- Original Message 
From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr
To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sat, 6 March, 2010 4:13:40
Subject: [LUTE] Lachrimae pavan

   I commit a non-orthodox and non-hip version of Lachrimae Pavan, using
   the arrangement by Jamie Holding. Purists, please, don't watch...



   [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbY0toLxy0





   Val ;-)

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References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbY0toLxy0


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[LUTE] Re: Little Lines

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stewart,


When it is used for an n, as it is most frequent in Spanish, it is called a 
nunnation sign (i.e. the sign that indicates the addition of a final n).

With all my best wishes ,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tue, 29 December, 2009 14:03:59
Subject: [LUTE] Little Lines

   Dear All,


   A friend of mine has asked me this question:


   When a seventeenth-century copyist abbreviated a word and indicated it
   by writing a line over the last letter, rather than a dot after it
   (e.g. Preludiu for Preludium), is there a proper term to refer to that
   line?


   I don't now the answer. Can anyone help?


   Stewart McCoy.

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[LUTE] Not that I should want to cry

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends,

I am in dire need of two articles by David pinto that appeared in the Lute 
Society Journal:

Dowland's Tears: aspects of Lachrimae (LSJ 37, 1997), and
Dowland's True Tears (LSJ 42, 2002)

I would be most grateful if some one of you has them in digital format and 
could graciously provide me with a copy.

Best wishes,
Antonio



   



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[LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Howard,

What is the source for the theory that in Spain and its areas of influence 
thumb-out was the norm? As far as I am aware, certain musical sources (such as 
Venegas de Henestrosa) inform us of the possibility of playing in this manner, 
besides the thumb-under thechnique which is also acknowledged. Iconographic 
sources tell the same story: both techniques coexisted.

Best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 15:15:44
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique

On Sep 15, 2009, at 11:43 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote:

 But, I am making a basic assumption (based upon a limited amount of
 reading) that a style of thumb-under technique was in general use
 before a style of thumb-over technique evolved and became also
 generally used.  Also, that this later style did evolve at the same
 time that more bass courses were being added to the lute.  From
 that, I've arrived at the assumption that something about the thumb-
 over style made it easier to deal with the added bass courses.

Here's another version of history: in the south, Spain and Italy,
thumb-out was the norm as far back as anyone can tell (thus was
normal when lutes had five and six courses), and the hand position
spread north in the 1500' and 1600's.  It may have more to do with
tone than facility.  I've long since forgotten the evidence for the
south-to-north migration theory, BTW.

 Might I ask you why you've chosen to use thumb-over as opposed to
 thumb-under?


Flattered that you'd ask, but the only reason is that I find it more
comfortable, which is not really useful information for you.
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[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Karl,

Not quite. The hemiola, in this case, is a displacement of accents in the two 
bars before the last, whereby the metrical pattern in two bars in triple time 
is articulated as if were three bars in duple time; the final chord with a 
perfect breve is perfectly all right. In other words, you must have three 
stresses measuring three breves (or their equivalents) in the two bars before 
the last. This is precisely the case. In the final cadence, for instance, 
assuming a G tuning, you would have the following pattern: first stress: 4 
minims (Bb-A-G-F); second stress: 2 semibreves on the third beat of the first 
bar and on the first beat of the second (E-F); and what definitely shows this 
to be an hemiola is the last stress, a breve (C) with a change of harmony with 
the typical 4-3 retard which must be accented, here occuring on the second 
beat, therby indicating clearly the displacement of accent. 

Best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
To: Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, 9 September, 2009 16:24:38
Subject: Re: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who 
knows?

Dear Antonio,

Sorry, my answer is a bit late. I agree with you that a hemiola can be pointed 
out by the bass. But I what I see in in the two bars before the last section 
bar is the rhythm /breve semibreve/ semibreve breve/ the latter a syncope 
typical for gaillards. To form a hemiola, a bar with  /breve semibreve/ must 
follow. Instead the closing chord of the section with a perfect breve value 
follows.

Best wishes
Karl

- Original Message - From: Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com
To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:14 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?


Dear Karl,

Hemiolas in galliards are never notated explicitly, but you can deduce them 
easily from the movement of the bass, in the last two bars before the final 
chord. This is the case in the three cadences in Milan's piece.

Best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
To: Lute mailing list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 7:49:03
Subject: [LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

  Antonio Corona wrote:



  Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on
  the tactus, typically one step per modern measure.  Lots of time for
  slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks.  No matter if the
  tactus
  is subdivided triply or duply.
  As I stated above, the sixth pavan is by no means such a dance. As
  far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the
  characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with
  rythmic structure.





  I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a
  tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard.

  But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the
  section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.)



  Karl





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[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Göran,

I'm very sorry, but I cannot offer very much help. I read it at the British 
Library when I was preparing my Ph:D dissertation, in a quite rare 
nineteenth-century edition. However, there seems to be a facsimile edition of 
2001. Have a look at:

http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=5QLnuXWZlJgCpg=PT87lpg=PT87dq=mil%C3%A1n+%22El+cortesano%22source=blots=5TTr5L2wYjsig=0VWUJAyGCu3H1fyv3aFExBOcmLshl=esei=3gacSoP6N9LjlAfer92_DAsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1#v=onepageq=f=false

Best wishes,
Antonio




- Original Message 
From: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com
To: Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, 31 August, 2009 10:19:00
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

Antonio!

I've been looking for that book for ages. You have read it. Any idea of where I 
could get hold of the txt?

Best

Göran

- Original Message - From: Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com
To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:09 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?


- Original Message 
From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 16:17:39
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com said:

AC At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for
 certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest.

Dana: Not even a prince of a priest?  It is such men who have the means to hire
lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable
circumstance.  I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet,
you  must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the
players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern
orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages
faster in performance than in rehearsal.

Not even of a prince or priest. Milan was not a lutenist for hire: as far as we 
can tell from his autobiographical book he was an aristocratic amateur. And, 
while the heart rate may well affect a players' performance, we are not 
discussing how fast an excited vihuelist might have played, but a specific 
instruction by the author.




 In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how
 slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played
 somewhat fast in general usage.

Dana: At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music;
especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed
of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor).

I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that we were discussing Milan's 
piece.




Dana: As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and
cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie
in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point.

You can consult the facsimile at:

http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/VF4NGVRAE4GN5CIQXCF7EBM5DNRXF6CN2GFGG7M9Y6UCN92U5T-02151?func=results-jump-fullset_entry=12




Dana: I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my 
singing and is at best
un poquito.  Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple,
that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part.  Wouldnt be the
first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the
author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a
timely fashion.  While both the press and LdM shared residence in
Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey
across the center of Spain.  It is possible that LdM was seeking a
position at the court and may have been traveling during the production
work on the book (more conjecture).

There is no messing up of the author's intentions, as the Milan rubrics I 
quoted before show. Milan was not looking for any position at the Portuguese 
court, he was already part of that of Germaine de Foix, and not as a vihuelist, 
but as an appreciated member, as his book of 1561 (quite some time after the 
publication of el Maestro), also published at Valencia, and dedicated to King 
Philip II, shows. We cannot build up knowledge just from conjeture.




 Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: This pavan has the 
 proportion of three semibreves [each] bar

Dana: and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla.  Hemiola is a feature
of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there
are also tourdion, volta, and canario.

No tourdions in Spanish sources, neither voltas (a bit late for the time when 
El Maestro was published, besides), while the Spanish canario is a seventeenth- 
and eighteenth-century dance.


Best wishes,
Antonio


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[LUTE] Re: Edward Marvin/who nose?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Howard,

Rather the opposite: I mean casting our conceptions (as historicaly based as 
they might be) upon a specific case where the evidence contradicts them. In 
this particular case it means reviewing what we consider a pavan (the historic 
category) in the face of what Milan is telling: i.e. that HE considers certain 
fantasias as having pavan characteristics while, nevertheless, providing 
information to the contrary: speed and rhythmic organization. Thus, if we play 
Milan's sixth pavan as a pavan we may be reassured by our knowledge of how 
pavans were played that we are on the right path; yet we are not following 
Milan's specific instructions, thus contradicting prima facie evidence. This 
also holds for the remaining five pavans in what concerns tempo.

Best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
To: Lute mailing list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, 27 August, 2009 23:41:07
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Marvin/who nose?

On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:

 You are quite right, but that was not the point I was trying to
 make. Rather than questioning how to manipulate the piece, I was
 trying to show the inconsistency of forcing a historic category
 into a context that contradicts it explicitly.

Maybe I'm missing the context.  By forcing a historic category etc.
do you mean playing a pavana as if it's a pavana because it's called
a pavana?  Or something else?


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[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends




 On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
 
 They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow  
 pavan]

Dana: well, perhaps the tempo can be varied enough to get that certain peacock
and his retinue thru the line as quickly as possible; perhaps at a wedding
when the priest is visibly impatient for whatever reason.

Which leaves the matter of the rythmic structure unaccounted for. At any rate, 
we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for certain facts of performance 
pratice by summoning the whims of a priest.



 In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how  
 slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played  
 somewhat fast in general usage.

Dana: it is entirely possible that the copy given to the
publisher/printer/compositor contained a suite of pavan and gaillarde
which were not annotated as such, and slipped thru.  Unfortunatly, I do
not have the music available as I write this (most of my music is packed
up, and the university music library is on inconveniant summer hours),
further, I didnt explore all of the pavans some decades ago, only those I
had recordings for (Yepes mainly).

Milan states (full quotation): These six fantasias that follow, as I mentioned 
before, resemble in their air and composition the same pavans that are played 
in Italy, and, since they are so much alike in everything, let us call them 
pavans. The first four are my invention, the melody of the two that follow was 
composed in Italy and the compositon over them is mine. They must be played 
somewhat fast, and they should be played twice or thrice, and the first pavan 
that follows belongs to the first and second mode (Estas seis fantasias que se 
siguen, como arriba os dije, parecen en su aire y compostura a las mismas 
pavanas que en Italia se tañen, y pues en todo remedan a ellas, digamosles 
pavanas. Las cuatro primeras son inventadas por mi; las dos que después se 
siguen la sonada de ellas se hizo en Italia, y la compostura sobre la sonada de 
ellas es mía. Devense tañer con el compás algo apresurado, y requieren tañerse 
dos o tres veces, y esta pavana
 que primeramente sigue anda por los terminos del primero y segundo tonos). I 
believe, from this quotation, that it is most unlikely that Milan might have 
given a pavan-galliard pair to the publisher.

Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: This pavan has the 
proportion of three semibreves [each] bar, and moves in the same mode as the 
past pavan, and the value of all the breves you may find alone will be a bar 
(Esta pavana es a proporcion de tres semibreves [por] compas, y va por los 
terminos de la pavana pasada, y todos los breves que hallareis solos valgan 
ahora un compas). Thus, Milan makes it quite plain that he considered his 
ternary piece a pavan, and rules out the possibility of a galliard slipping 
past unnoticed or by mistake. Milan even stats that all breves found alone are 
perfect, in accordance to the mensural theory.


Best wishes,
Antonio


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[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Karl,

Hemiolas in galliards are never notated explicitly, but you can deduce them 
easily from the movement of the bass, in the last two bars before the final 
chord. This is the case in the three cadences in Milan's piece.

Best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
To: Lute mailing list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 7:49:03
Subject: [LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

   Antonio Corona wrote:



   Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on
   the tactus, typically one step per modern measure.  Lots of time for
   slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks.  No matter if the
   tactus
   is subdivided triply or duply.
   As I stated above, the sixth pavan is by no means such a dance. As
   far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the
   characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with
   rythmic structure.





   I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a
   tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard.

   But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the
   section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.)



   Karl





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[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

[Antonio Corona]

- Original Message 
From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 16:17:39
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona abcor...@yahoo.com said:

AC At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for 
 certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest.

Dana: Not even a prince of a priest?  It is such men who have the means to hire
lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable
circumstance.  I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet,
you  must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the
players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern
orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages
faster in performance than in rehearsal.

Not even of a prince or priest. Milan was not a lutenist for hire: as far as we 
can tell from his autobiographical book he was an aristocratic amateur. And, 
while the heart rate may well affect a players' performance, we are not 
discussing how fast an excited vihuelist might have played, but a specific 
instruction by the author.




 In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how  
 slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played  
 somewhat fast in general usage.

Dana: At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music;
especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed
of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor).

I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that we were discussing Milan's 
piece.




Dana: As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and
cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie
in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point.  

You can consult the facsimile at:

http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/VF4NGVRAE4GN5CIQXCF7EBM5DNRXF6CN2GFGG7M9Y6UCN92U5T-02151?func=results-jump-fullset_entry=12




Dana: I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my 
singing and is at best
un poquito.  Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple,
that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part.  Wouldnt be the
first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the
author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a
timely fashion.  While both the press and LdM shared residence in
Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey
across the center of Spain.  It is possible that LdM was seeking a
position at the court and may have been traveling during the production
work on the book (more conjecture).

There is no messing up of the author's intentions, as the Milan rubrics I 
quoted before show. Milan was not looking for any position at the Portuguese 
court, he was already part of that of Germaine de Foix, and not as a vihuelist, 
but as an appreciated member, as his book of 1561 (quite some time after the 
publication of el Maestro), also published at Valencia, and dedicated to King 
Philip II, shows. We cannot build up knowledge just from conjeture.




 Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: This pavan has the 
 proportion of three semibreves [each] bar

Dana: and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla.  Hemiola is a feature
of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there
are also tourdion, volta, and canario.
 
No tourdions in Spanish sources, neither voltas (a bit late for the time when 
El Maestro was published, besides), while the Spanish canario is a seventeenth- 
and eighteenth-century dance.


Best wishes,
Antonio


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[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Friends,

Quite right, Dana, but if memory serves Milan introduces the 6 Pavanas
by saying that the next six fantasias are pavanas. The there's the
problem of pavans being generally in duple and some of the Milan
pavanas are in triple.



Dana: I am away from my copy of milan, so I cant confirm your memorys yea or 
nay; but no matter, the issue is one of performance practice.  

I can confirm that Milan states in quite certain terms that the six following 
fantasias, as I said above, in their air and composition  are alike to the same 
pavans that are played in Italy, and, since they resemble them in everything, 
let's call them pavans. (Estas seis fantasias que se siguen, como arriba os 
dije, parecen en su aire y compostura a las mismas pavanas que en Italia se 
tañen, y pues en todo remedan a ellas, digamosles pavanas).  I believe we 
should be wary of considering these pieces as typical examples of pavans just 
from Milan's loose quotation which, besides, makes it clear that, in his view, 
they were first and foremost fantasias, to which we can add the fact that the 
sixth one (whose tune is not by him: las dos que se siguen [i.e. the last two] 
la sonada de ellas se hizo en Italia ) cannot be construed in any way as 
responding to the structure of a pavan (it has, in fact, the typical structure 
of a galliard).




Dana: All renaissance 'artists' had to contend with the conservative nature of 
the church; anything 'new' was risque (just ask copernicus or galileo).  The 
natural result was constant references to antiquity, and thematic borrowing 
from the works of your contemporaries to an extent that startles moderns who 
are used to the constrictions of copyright.  The quodlibet form seen at the end 
of the 15c takes this to an absurd level which is seen in many of the works of 
PDQ Bach and also in musical medleys.

This is not the case with Milan, he was a self-recognized amateur player and 
composer, moving in the circle of the court of Germaine de Foix, widow of 
Ferdinand, and composing and playing strictly within this aristocratic 
entourage, as it can be shown by his autobiographical book Libro del 
Cortesano (nothing to do with Castigione's).




Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the 
tactus, typically one step per modern measure.  Lots of time for slow graceful 
showing off by the strutting peacocks.  No matter if the tactus
is subdivided triply or duply.

As I stated above, the sixth pavan is by no means such a dance. As far as I 
can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic 
hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure.




Dana: Fantasias in various forms are to be expected, forms are a useful 
compositional restriction, guidelines to work within. But the essencial freedom 
of a Fantasia lies in its theme(s), original matter, treated whimsically; 
showing all the the art of the composer (hopefully sufficient art to leave room 
for the performers art).

Not necessarily for Milan, who stated that fantasias are called thus because 
they proceed from the author's fancy. From this perspective, if Milan composed 
the pieces in question, they indeed proceed from his fancy, including the 
polemic sixth pavan, whose tune is not by him, but the composition over it 
(la compostura sobre la sonada de ellas es mia).




Dana: Dances often have structure, with sections needing repeat here, but not 
there because of the choreography.  The use of the bar is very irregular in 
this music from its inception, section marking is often unclear, even well into 
the editions of Playford; having a choreography is an immense help to decideing 
what sections need repeats; sometimes a lyric will serve the same purpose.  

Again, Milan´s indications leave no room for doubt: They must be played with a 
somewhat fast air [so much for the slow pavan] and it is required that they be 
played twice or thrice (Debense tañer con el compas algo apresurado, y 
requierense tañer dos o tres veces). Milan does not say you may, he states 
you must. 




Dana: Accidents of history deny us complete knowledge of the choreographies for 
all dance music, in some cases we have worthy choreographies begging for 
suitable music (eg, Mdm Sosilias Allemande).  In some cases we have the 
challenge of reconciling music to choreography where typos are suspect (Arbeau 
Bransle de la guerre, over the page turn an obvious pick-up note is not 
composited on the preceding page where is should have been but instead leads 
off the next and produces one-too-many notes and much confusion for all). Dana 
Emery

Again, I must stress that we cannot be too dogmatic and should consider each 
case from the point of view of the available evidence concerning each piece, 
composer, etc. In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how 
slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played somewhat fast in 
general usage. 

[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Howard,

You are quite right, but that was not the point I was trying to make. Rather 
than questioning how to manipulate the piece, I was trying to show the 
inconsistency of forcing a historic category into a context that contradicts it 
explicitly.

With best wishes,
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
To: Lute mailing list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, 27 August, 2009 14:40:11
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?


On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:

 They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow  
 pavan] and it is required that they be played twice or  
 thrice (Debense tañer con el compas algo apresurado, y requierense  
 tañer dos o tres veces). Milan does not say you may, he states  
 you must.

Or  you should or you ought

 In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how  
 slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played  
 somewhat fast in general usage.

Three beats to one step works rather like a more modern march in 6/8  
(you do have to assume that pavana really means pavana and not  
play the last two bars as a hemiola, or not care about it); the notes  
go by quite quickly but the steps are slow.
--

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[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends

More about Milan,

I don´t recall the exact quote (I´m not at home at the moment to verify the 
reference), but Milán does state explicitely that the pavans should be played 
twice. Thus, there is at least some evidence about the use of repeats by Milan. 
I agree with Ariel, we should not be too dogmatic, lest we err on the side of 
misinterperting literaly due to our ignorance (and here I should stress OUR) 
about many aspects of perfomance practice in sixteenth-century Spain.

Best wishes
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: ariel abramovich g_abramo...@hotmail.com
To: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com; Omer Katzir kome...@gmail.com
Cc: Omer Katzir kome...@gmail.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August, 2009 8:50:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?

Hi Omer,


Surely Ed will appreciate that you've taken the time to say a word on his work.


I'm of the opinion of defending our musical ideas making music rather than with 
words, so I won't say much here...

About Milán:

He doesn't say anything on repeating or not, but he is definitively flexible 
about many other things all over his book, so I don't see a reason for  not 
repeating.
Hoppy Smith does it, for instances even only with one part of the piece, and it 
can be an interesting effect (in case you do have something to say, of course).


As for the fantasia as a story, let's go back to Milán: solo procede de la 
fantasía e industria del autor que la hizo, which means that has no other 
origin that the author's imagination, and therefore there's no much 
restrictions about how we can face them today. Not in Milán's book, at least.

We can do pretty much whatever we want with it, and there's no rules for 
breaking chords, dynamics or anything like that. There's nothing proper or 
correct... A simple matter of taste, I'm afraid.



Milán gently offered to amateur players some tips on rubato, for example, which 
should be taken as a mind opener, rather than a guide to play music in a very 
specific way (wish my English was better, sorry).

Best,


Ariel.





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland song paraphrases

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Rob - and David

Thanks ever so much for such a nice and though-provoking contribution. As a 
matter of fact, I've been mulling over the meaning of some of the songs, 
especially the Darkness ones, and I believe there is much in them that does 
not not meet the eye. One of the pieces which I've been examining is No. 20, 
Come heavy sleepe , in which I have found a fascinanting use of numerology 
(not my contribution, it was Anthony Rooly who sparked the interest). Aside 
from all the historical context and Lucy of Bedford´s patronage which could 
help to support a view that Dowland eas as interested as, say Spencer, in 
Neo-Platonic lore, I have found the internal evidence overwhelming.

David wonders if this piece might have an obscure religious interpretation; 
in my view it does have certain definte mystic undertones, not related to the 
Spanish tendency, but rather to the Ficino-Agricola-Dee variety, and portrays 
the soul in search of a reunion with its origin. Perhaps at some time I may be 
able to publish my interpretation of this song, which I find among the most 
beautiful of Dowland. Incidentally, in this work we find, for the first time, 
the Lachrima in a vocal context.

Keep up the good work.
Antonio



- Original Message 
From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com
To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:38:25
Subject: [LUTE] Dowland song paraphrases

   David Hill has completed his paraphrases to Dowland's The First Booke
   of Songs - which I am delighted to say is now downloadable from the
   John Dowland website:  [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm



   David would like me to point out that ''these are only MY
   interpretations of the meanings of the songs, and I may well be wrong,
   or simply unaware of certain facts or bits of info, folklore or other
   Jacobean titbits. You could perhaps tell folk that all suggestions of
   alternative readings/interpretations will be considered (like a rather
   better-informed early musical Wikipedia''



   I'm sure these paraphrases will be of tremendous help to singers and
   their accompanists, and I urge you to encourage performers to download
   these texts. And - it need hardly be said - a huge Thank You to David
   Hill for taking the time to complete Book 1. I understand that Book 2
   is well on its way, with the others to follow.



   As ever, comments/discussion welcome.



   Rob MacKillop

   [2]www.johndowland.co.uk

   --

References

   1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm
   2. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/


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[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano

[Antonio Corona]

Dear all,

The celebrated maker Lorenzo Gusnasco da Pavia made quite a number of 
instruments for many Italian nobles, especially for Isabella d'Este, including 
several viols (whatever this may mean in late 15th-century Italy). A point of 
interest here is that among her servants we find Giovanni Angelo Testagrossa: 
does this ring a bell?

In 1503 Testagrossa left her service taking with him three bowed viols and two 
spagnoli, whose probable identity as plucked instruments is supported by an a 
Ferrara inventory of 1511, where violoni alla napolitana are listed under 
lauti and thus distinguished from bowed ones.

Lorenzo da Pavia made a viola spagnola for Leonora Gonzaga of Urbino in 
1509-1510.

Things begin to getinteresting in the correspondance between Isabella d'Este 
and Lorenzo da Pavia where we find references to another name that may be 
germane to the issue: Spanish lute (liuto alla spagnola): When Isabella 
ordered one, Lorenzo mentioned that these instruments were: ... lutes made in 
Spain, and the Spanish give them a certain sound in one way or another to make 
them sing, which they do not know how to do here. Later on Isabella specifies 
some of the characteristics she wants the instrument to have: remember to make 
the the body completely in Spanish manner without giving it anything of the 
Italian fashion (fare el corpo tutto alla spagnola senza dargli niente del 
italiano).

Tantalizing 

A splendid study of Lorenzo da Pavia, where all this information appears, was 
published by William Prizer, Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia, 'Master 
Instrument Maker' . _Early Music History_ 2 (1982), pp. 87-127. Another 
intersting study by the same author is _Courtly Pastimes. The Frottole of 
Marchetto Cara_, UMI Research Press, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 1980

Best wishes,
Antonio

- Original Message 
From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008 12:30:25 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano

I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan
provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does
Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did
the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da
mano? Any other publications for it?

And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a
'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I
can't remember the facts.

I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who
are not subscribers here.

Rob MacKillop

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[LUTE] Re: theorbo in Spain?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Howard,

According to Martin McLeish, in his article:

An Inventory of
Musical Instruments at the Royal Palace, Madrid, in 1602, GSJ, 21, 1968, pp.
108-128,

Joan de Rojas Carrión, royal violero compiled an inventory on May 13 1602 
(should I wait for the anniversary?) where the theorbos under consideration are 
mentioned. The document is part of the collection known as the Barbiery 
papers, now at the Biblioteca Nacional Madrid (MSS 14017/6). This is further 
confirmed in:

Francisco Asenjo Barbieri, _Documentos sobre música española y epistolario 
(Legado Barbieri)_, edited by Emilio Casares, Madrid: Fundación Banco Exterior, 
1988, vol 2, p. 72, 

where the inventory is named as: Instrumentos de música, tasados por  Juan de 
Rojas Carrión, violero en Madrid, a 13 de mayo de 1602 (...).

The inventory mentions, among may other instruments (including several lutes), 
a thirteen-course  tiorvia with two heads and to bridges (...) made in Padua 
and a tiorvia with two heads made like a lute of which no further details are 
given, except that the back is varnished, with stripes of ivory, which is 
valued at 300 reales.

It would seem, therefore, that we are indeed talking of Felipe II.

With best wishes, 
Antonio

- Original Message 
From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, 11 May, 2008 8:13:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo in Spain?

On May 1, 2008, at 6:41 AM, Manolo Laguillo wrote:

 In the DICCIONARIO DE INSTRUMENTOS MUSICALES, Barcelona 2001, under
 'tiorba', the author of it, Ramon Andres, after mentioning an inventar
 of possesions of Felipe II, the king of Spain, where two theorbos
 figure,

Are we really talking about Felipe II here?  He died in 1598, which  
seems early for theorbos to be in Spain.  Felipe III died in 1621 and  
Felipe IV in 1665.
--

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[LUTE] Re: Pavana

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stephen,

As Howard Posner rightly pointed out, Pisador's pavan is based upon La gamba 
tenor and it is definitely in triple time. This is not the only case where 
triple-time pieces are notated in what seems to be a duple time notation in 
Spanish sources, Mudarra's galliard being the first example that spings to 
mind, but there is a further consideration that we should reflect upon: the 
normal white mensural notation for voices used certain mensuration signs that 
we could interpret in modern (and anachronical) terms as belonging to either 
duple or triple time, but the barring in the tablature does not carry a similar 
implication. The only function of the said bars is to provide a frame of 
reference for a regular pulse, not to define a series of accents. Thus, a 
transcription into modern notation should take into account the internal 
structure of the piece and not the external frame, otherwise it would be a 
misrepresentation. In this particular case the
 transcription in triple time is correct and proper.

With best wishes,
Antonio

- Original Message 
From: Stephen Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, 13 April, 2008 8:04:07 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Pavana

Greetings.  I notice the Pisador vihuela Pavana muy llana para taner is 
notated in triple time in the Schott guitar edition, which says that the 
original was given in duple.  Normally pavans are duple, but looking at 
it it does seem to insist on being triple (or is that just knowing it so 
long in triple?).

Three questions pertain:
- should this piece really be in triple time?
- if so how does it end up in triple: is it a function of its being from 
an earlier time than many pavans we are used to?
- is there an implication for tempo, eg should it be quicker than the 
stately progress we think of for the standard duple pavan?

Umpteen thankings,


Stephen




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[LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs

[Antonio Corona]

Dear all,

Monumentos VII is an edition of Mudarra, and we should not forget Charles 
Jacobs' edition of El Maestro (University
Park, Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1971).

Best wishes,
ACA

- Original Message 
From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April, 2007 9:03:10 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs

You're probably thinking about the edition by Charles
Jacobs (OUP 1978) of the Fuenllana.

Also Monumentos de la musica Espanola VII (Fuenllana)
and XXII-XXIII (Valderrabano).
- Original Message - 
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alfonso
Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs


 All Fuenllana songs were published in notation 20+
 years ago, in one thick
 volume. I don't recall the publisher off hand.
 RT

 - Original Message - 
 From: Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:14 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Modern edition of vihuela songs


 Dear all,

 I am thinking about editing the songs for vihuela and
 voice into an
 edition more suitable for performance than the
 original facsimiles. I
 have special interest on the songs without mensural
 notation were the
 singing part is indicated by red cyphers.
 I would like to know of somebody has done this
 already (entirely or
 partially), otherwise my project would be worthless.
 Besides that does someone know of a modern edition of
 the songs of
 Fuenllana and Valderrabano?

 Thanks!

 Greetings,

 Alfonso




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[LUTE] Re: Tablature of Pisador

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stewart and Kate,

As Stewart rightly points out, the sign in question is indeed a breve with a 
fermata (corona or coronado in Spanish, no pun intended) upon it, used 
normally to indicate the end of a piece. You can find this combination of signs 
in all of the six vihuela-books published in Castile, with precisely this 
function. The exception is Milan's El Maestro, where, in the fantasias de 
consonancias y redobles and tentos, it is meant to indicate that the chord upon 
which it appears is to be held a bit longer. Milan states: stop playing a 
little in each fermata  (parar de tañer en cada coronado un poco). Curiously 
enough, Milan does not use the fermata at the end of his pieces. I agree with 
Stewart that there is no relation between this sign and repeats, and that 
Pisador uses it in the diferencias simply to mark the end of each one.

With best regards,
Antonio


- Original Message 
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, 28 January, 2007 5:57:38 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Tablature of Pisador

Dear Kate,

You make an interesting observation. The sign you describe is a
breve with a pause or fermata above it. If you look further on in
the book, you will see the breve used on its own, e.g. for the last
chord of folio 6. Sometimes the breve has a fermata above it over a
chord, e.g. the last chord of folio 16v. There's nothing surprising
in that: just an indication that you are at the end of a section or
piece.

What is surprising is the use of the fermata and breve in Conde
Claros. The breve cannot mean a breve or any other note value,
because it doesn't come above a note. I think it simply marks the
end of a section, although you could say that it's redundant, if
there
are double bars doing that already.

You wonder whether the sign has any significance with regard to
repeats. I don't think it does. If you look at the songs from folio
9 onwards, the breve and the breve with fermata seem to be used
randomly, now the one, now the other. It doesn't seem to matter
whether there is one line of text, or two (which would necessitate a
repeat).

I have had a quick flick through the book, and I cannot see a
fermata over any other note value. My guess is that all the little
blocks used for printing fermatas had a breve on as well, because
that would be the normal note value used at the end of a piece,
irrespective of its true length. I don't believe that the fermata
meant, as it does today, that a note should be held on a bit longer.
Many of the sections in Conde Claros end with quick notes, and it
wouldn't make much musical sense to keep interrupting the flow.

Many thanks for your useful contribution. I hope you enjoy taking
part on the list.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: Kate Melhuish [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:49 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Tablature of Pisador


 Greetings,

   This is my first post here.  I was invited by Roman Turovsky.

   I am looking at Diego Pisador's Libro de Musica de Vihuela, the
Libro
 Primero, and the first piece Conde Claros.  Every so often, I see
these
 symbols that sort of look like a modern fermata sitting on top of
a
 rectangle.  Could these maybe be repeats?  Looking closely, they
are
 directly over bars with more than one line.  Sometimes the bars
have
 three lines, sometimes four.  Could this maybe have something to
do
 with ending and starting repeats?  I even made a trip to the
library
 hoping that good old Willi Apel might offer me some direction, but
I am
 still at a loss.  Thanks to anyone who might know what this is.
   The Java Zinger





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[LUTE] Re: help with Spanish translation -- Ay que si por mi dolor

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Christopher,

If my menory serves me right, these are the first lines form a villancico from 
the Cancionero de Palacio. I should have to look for my copy and verify. The 
two verses are a sort of conversation between a lovestruck shepherd and an 
unidentified companion, and could be translated as:

- Your friend got married, shepherd John.
- Oh yes, to my regret.

Best wishes,
Antonio

- Original Message 
From: Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 28 April, 2006 4:41:37 PM
Subject: [LUTE] help with Spanish translation -- Ay que si por mi dolor

Hello all. I've been wracking my brain to try and figure this lyric out ...

Desposose te tu amiga Juan Pastor
Ay que si por mi dolor

It's a short piece from Valderrabano's book. Any translation help is
appreciated.

 - Chris

-
Christopher Schaub
web: http://www.christopherschaub.com
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking

[Antonio Corona]

--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was
 given but he was asking for notation advise - he
 says
 that according to tinctoris, there was a change from
 playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with
 the
 fingertips during the second half of the l5th
 century
 and that the two methods continued side by side for
 some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c.
 lutes.
 
 - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced
 plectrum as the predominate style of play?  
 
 - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for
 a
 longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in
 others?  
 
 on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting
 explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be
 properly used: 
 
 ... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest
 approaching the instrument planning to use either
 alternate picking or economy picking. Alternate
 picking means that on each stroke you switch between
 downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is
 similar
 to alternate picking, except that when you change
 strings your next stroke is in the same direction
 your
 hand just moved.
 
 - are there references to alternate and economy
 picking in lute literature - possibly identified
 with
 other names?
 
 - are there additional up/down picking patterns
 recognized for the lute similar to the variety of
 rasqueo available for the vihuela and baroque
 guitar?
 
 grazie - bill  
 
 
 early music charango ...
 http://groups.google.com/group/charango
 
 
   

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[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Roger, 

Since you acknowledge that you are merely playing
Devil's advocate I shant worry too much about certain
of the things you mention. I should like to point out,
however, that there are more Spanish Medieval sources
that mention the vihuela, besides some varieties of
guitar about which we do not have a clear knowledge
(sarracenica, morisca, latina, etc.). The point is
that I believe that none of these sources intends to
name a small five-course instrument fashioned out of
an armadillo shell with reentrant tuning and played by
strumming. Likewise, even if we call (as we still do)
the guitar as a vihuela or lira, we are aware that
it is a poetic license and no one (at least in Mexico)
would claim that vihuela is the proper and authentic
name for the instrument. While it is true that
Medieval vihuelas (bowed and plucked) do appear in
literature and iconography, this fact in itself does
not warrant extending the usage to other string
instruments; otherwise why would they be so carefull
to distinguish between citola, guitarra, laud,
and vihuela in their writings? Remember the famous
list in the _Libro de Buen Amor_ you mention.

With best wishes,
Antonio



--- Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 - Original Message -
 From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 9:01 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied
 vihuela-viola-guitars come
 charango?
 
  Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know
 approximately when the
 word
  vihuela dropped completely out of usage and
 consciousness in Spain, and
 then
  also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in
 fact? Current Mexican
 Mariachi
  bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but
 I think that tradition
  dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there a
 few hundred year span
 and
  gap where the word essentially disappears from
 usage and application to
  guitar-like instruments?
 
  Roger
 
 
 
  Dear Eugene,
 
  The etymology of vihuela, according to Joan
 Corominas,
  author of the most reliable etymological
 dictionary of
  Spanish, runs more or less along these lines (I am
  quoting from memory):
 
  It comes, in the first instance from the Latin
 fides
  (string) which later underwent various
 transformations
  as fidicula, vitula, viula, and finally
  vihuela (I may have skipped some stages, I can't
  remember just now).
 
  Later on, after the sixteenth century, the term
 was
  also adopted to name the guitarra española (or
  baroque guitar), as shown by a goodly number of
  sources which use both terms interchangeably.
  Thereafter the usage became even more free, but it
 was
  principally associated with the guitar -in
 whatever
  manifestation- and instruments of this family.
 Thus
  you have a 19th century Argentinian gaucho in
 _Martin
  Fierro: stating that aqui me pongo a cantar, al
  compás de mi vihuela, or 19th, 20th and
 21st-century
  mariachy bands in Mexico happily strumming a
 vihuela
  that seems more related to a chitarra battente.
  Incidentally, lira has undergone a similar
 process,
  at least in Mexico.
 
  With best wishes,
  Antonio
 
 
 
 Antonio;
 
 this is what I suspected, that the term has been
 applied to guitar-like
 instruments non-stop since the late 15th century and
 even earlier (14th
 century, 1350, Juan Ruiz, (Archpriest of Hita),
 Spanish/Castilian, in his
 Libro de buen amor (The Book of Good Love),
 mentioning vihuela de arco and
 vihuela de penola). So anyone wanting to now limit
 the term solely to the
 early 16th century Spanish 6 courser, will have to
 take their argument to
 the last 500 years of Spanish nationals who've used
 the term freely, plus
 the nationals of all the New World lands, the
 Caribbean, Central and South
 America. People will have to convince _them_ that
 they had no right to use
 the word, and that they must repent for the
 blasphemy and disrespect shown
 to their vihuelista ancestors and their one and only
 true vihuela.
 
 The implications of this seem clear to me. Calling
 charango a vihuela, and
 recognizing it as being in the vihuela/guitarra
 family, a descendant and
 offspring of, as it clearly is, seems fair game.
 There is more than enough
 precedence, and in the lands and by the peoples who
 first gave us both the
 term and class of instrument, the heritage.
 
 Again, I'm really just playing devil's advocate
 here. I understand there is
 a particular moment in history and a particular
 repertory that people are
 wanting to distinguish and attach the term vihuela
 to (exclusively) as a
 convenient label and communications aid. Right or
 wrong, good or bad,
 appropriate or not, the waters of usage have already
 been long muddied. That
 is the real and true tradition of the matter. It's
 pretty hard trying to
 rewrite the record, wipe the slate clean and start
 over, at this point in
 the evolution of things, this late date.
 
 Roger
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: a vihuela named sue

[Antonio Corona]

Dar Bill,

I suspect that Solis and Bracamonte were duped as
well; acording to Dr. Prem the original document is
found at a private archive (Archivo Condumex) at
Mexico.

Best wishes,
antonio


--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 here's a nice piece of buddhist logic for you:
 
 of the various parts which make up a vihuela -
 waisted
 sound chamber, neck, bridge, strings, etc. - is
 there
 one element that distinguishes it from any other
 chordaphone?
 
 assuming it's not one part that turns any
 chordaphone
 into a - ping! - vihuela but the inter-dependence
 of
 all its parts ... i'd like to ask if it becomes
 something else if i remove one of its strings?  
 
 it wouldn't be suited for playing the 'magnificent
 seven' compositions any more but would it still be a
 vihuela?
 
 what if i removed the baroque filigree? ... expanded
 its waist a little or made it smaller? ... carved it
 from a single piece of wood instead of assembling it
 from many? ... would it be any less of a vihuela if
 it
 retained all the constituent parts of an
 acknowledged
 vihuela but was 33'' long with 5 courses?
 
 most charango sources i've read acknowledge its
 vihuela origin but insist that something happened to
 merit its new name.  what? ... when? ...  is what we
 have now significantly different from what it
 started
 out as?
 
 to eugene and antonio -
 
 i understand the infinitely patient eugene's
 argument
 against calling a charango a vihuela - historical
 precedent ... cause confusion ... luthier respect
 ...
 etc. - and i want you to know i'm going to follow
 that
 logic when next i ask the bolivians why they give us
 that awful name.
 
 and antonio ... i'm still too embarrassed to say
 anything to you, really ... but the two people
 mentioned by prof. prem - gabriela solís robleda and
 pedro bracamonte y sosa - did they fake the document
 or were they duped as well?
 
 ciao - bill   
 
 pluck a piriah vihuela ...
 http://groups.google.com/group/charango
 
 
   

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[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Eugene,

The etymology of vihuela, according to Joan Corominas,
author of the most reliable etymological dictionary of
Spanish, runs more or less along these lines (I am
quoting from memory):

It comes, in the first instance from the Latin fides
(string) which later underwent various transformations
as fidicula, vitula, viula, and finally
vihuela (I may have skipped some stages, I can't
remember just now).

Later on, after the sixteenth century, the term was
also adopted to name the guitarra española (or
baroque guitar), as shown by a goodly number of
sources which use both terms interchangeably.
Thereafter the usage became even more free, but it was
principally associated with the guitar -in whatever
manifestation- and instruments of this family. Thus
you have a 19th century Argentinian gaucho in _Martin
Fierro: stating that aqui me pongo a cantar, al
compás de mi vihuela, or 19th, 20th and 21st-century
mariachy bands in Mexico happily strumming a vihuela
that seems more related to a chitarra battente.
Incidentally, lira has undergone a similar process,
at least in Mexico.

With best wishes,
Antonio


--- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Indeed, although vihuela is a rather antiquated
 equivalent to viola; no 
 modern orchestras refer to their bowed altos as
 vihuela.  I don't know 
 that there are substantial gaps in the application
 of the term vihuela or 
 its equivalents to various things.  Regarding
 plucked things, it seems to 
 me that the term was simply absorbed in reference to
 guitars with their 
 burgeoning popularity at the end of the 16th c. 
 Viola da terra still 
 refers to an instrument remarkably similar to
 baroque-era 5-course guitars 
 in modern Portugal.  ...But I'd rather read the
 input of somebody who 
 actually may have studied the etymology, Antonio
 perhaps.
 
 Best,
 Eugene
 
 
 At 03:05 AM 12/5/2005, gary digman wrote:
 Am I mistaken in thinking that the word vihuela
 is equivalent in Spanish
 to the word viola in Italian and was used to
 refer to any stringed
 instrument, plucked or bowed (vihuela de mano and
 vihuela de arco)?
 
 Gary Digman
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 LUTELIST
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:02 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied
 vihuela-viola-guitars come
 charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
 
  
   Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know
 approximately when the word
   vihuela dropped completely out of usage and
 consciousness in Spain, and
 then
   also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in
 fact? Current Mexican
 Mariachi
   bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but
 I think that tradition
   dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there
 a few hundred year span
 and
   gap where the word essentially disappears from
 usage and application to
   guitar-like instruments?
  
   Roger
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Sad news for Bill ....

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Bill,

I have received confirmation from Dr. Prem that the
Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Joseph de San
Buenaventura is indeed a 20th-century fake. I'm sorry
to confirm my first impression of this purported
source. Here is the relevant text from Dr. Prem's
reply:



Estimado Dr. Corona,
[...] gracias por su interés en esta materia. Para
contestar sus preguntas acerca del documento que
mencionó cito de mi artículo los párrafos que resumen
la familia de los documentos falsificados:
 
The known members comprise the following texts:
2.  Historias de la Conquista del Mayab, por fray
Joseph de San Buenaventura (cited here as
Buenaventura), which is claimed in the text to have
been written in 1725. Gabriela Solís Robleda and Pedro
Bracamonte y Sosa (1994) published the text with their
commentaries [...] Three of these manuscripts comprise
homogeneous narratives, but Buenaventura consists of
a collection of various independent narratives,
purportedly assembled by its author in part from
earlier sources, in part being eyewitness himself.
[...] The first two manuscripts contain the story of
the famous Spanish sailor Gonzalo de Guerrero,
narrated by himself.  Manuscripts 3 and 4, and part of
2, concern the history of Maya groups that resided in
the inaccessible region of the Yucatán peninsula on
the shores of Lake Petén Itzá.  They describe, from
the perspective of Franciscan missionaries with vested
interests in extending colonial domination over them,
an event that was finalized by their military conquest
in 1697.


Regarding certain comments on your last message:

- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 i agree with you entirely on what
 constitutes
 a vihuela.  i don't know how much you're going to
 enjoy being associated with the charango, however. 
 i
 would hate to see your beautiful site being trashed
 simply because you acknowledge it - the charango -
 as
 being part of the family.  


Since Roger's working definition of what constitues a
vihuela is so broad and free, I see no point in trying
to discuss any further the matter, except to point out
that, from such a point of view, any plucked-string
instrument with neck can be called with whatever name
you please. You may call your charango a vihuela, a
lute, a gittern, a citole, a vina or a bouzouky, but
bear in mind that you are doing so from a perspective
that fails to take into account historical
distinctions, as well as the usage among contemporary
players and makers, not to mention the rest of the
society of the time. I quote Roger's working
definition:

my working definition of vihuela is quite free and
broad. I most often group together _all_
vihuela-viola-guitarra-guitars and often even gitterns
and lutes, whether 4, 5, or 6 course (or single
stung), plucked and bowed, long-neck or short-neck,
smooth-curve or waist-cut, rosettes or C holes, thin
ribs or thick, many styles of peg-box, played on the
arm, lap or leg, small, medium, large, and
extra-large, etc, etc.


Again, your comments: 
 i have no idea how many of the others on the list
 will
 look at the photos but i don't think it will change
 many minds - alas.  similarities between what is
 illustrated there and what i'm intermittently
 strumming as i type, will simply not be accepted.  i
 mean, will not be.  your point about modern,
 assembly
 line perceptions of individual historical
 instruments
 is entirely accurate.  i don't mean this in any way
 to
 be derogatory but for most of our friends on the
 list,
 superficial consideration - what appears on top -
 matters most.


As a matter of fact, I do know all of these vihuela
illustrations, and then some, as you can verify in my
article on vihuela organology published in: 
Aux origines de la guitare: la vihuela de mano, les
cahiers du museé de la musique 5, Parìs: cité de la
musique, 2004, pp. 16-28. 
In this book there is also a splendid article on
vihuela iconography by Florence Gétreau. So, as you
can see, my opinions are also based upon the evidence
provided by iconographic sources. I´m sorry, but I
cannot accept size as the only element that could
establish a link between small instruments from the
Middle Ages, Renaissance and contemporary Andean folk
instruments; it's very much the same perspective as
outlined above and to paraphrase you, regarding size
as the crucial factor, is it not looking only at the
superficial?

With best wishes,
Antonio

P.S.
About your signature 




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[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Roger,

Ortiz the musician did in fact exist. He is
mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, in his
_Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva
España_, as one of the soldiers who accompanied Cortez
in his venture (not in the probably spurious source
Bill mentioned). There is room for confusion, though,
with a second Ortiz (the first died, according to
Bernal at the hands of the indians, who was also a
musician: this second Ortiz set up what was probably
the first school of music and dancing in the New
world, with an interesting circumstance: he requested
that a new plot of land be accorded to him, because
next to the one he had, in the Calle de las Gayas,
the first brothel in the New World was founded.

With best wishes,
Antonio



--- Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 - Original Message -
 From: Cinque Cento [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Bad translation of the first of 11
 short stories.(who
 volunteers the next?)
 
 
  Ortiz the musician
 
  by Nestor Guestrin, winner of the Concurso Hamlet
 Lima Quintana 2002
 
  http://es.geocities.com/nestorguestrin/cuentos
  http://cuentos.nestorguestrin.cjb.net
 
 
 
 
 Thanks, this is interesting. But could you give a
 little background please.
 
 Is this a piece of fiction written by Nestor (and
 translated by you), or is
 this Nestor's transcription of one of Ortiz's
 auto-biographical works (and
 here translated by you)?
 
 Is this the same Diego Ortiz who published in 1553
 the viol treatise titled;
 Tratado de glosas sobre cláusulas y otros géneros
 de puntos en la música de
 violones
 
 Thanks
 Roger
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Bill,

The source you quote, Historias de la Conquista del
Mayab, by a certain Fray Joseph de Buenaventura, is
mentionesd by Carlos Alberto Fernández Acevedo in the
web page in your signature in the following terms:

La historia surgió con motivo de un viaje que realicé
a México, a raíz del cual leí el hermoso libro
Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva
España de Bernal Díaz del Castillo, soldado de Hernán
Cortés, que relató con maestría esa epopeya, y más
precisamente el libro Historias de la Conquista del
Mayab de Fray Joseph de San Buenaventura, que narra
detalles de la conquista de la península de Yucatán.

It strikes me as utterly improbable that if such a
book existed, it would be unavailable in the principal
libraries and archives of Mexico, especailly taking
into account what your source states about consulting
it con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México, that
is because of a trip I made to Mexico. Believe me, I
am very interested in finding out the truth of this
story, and I have looked for the said book at every
possible place. Failing to find it in the main
repositories, and taking into account the fact that no
historian of the conquest and its times ever mentions
it, I am forced to believe that such a source is
merely wishful thinking by the author mentioned above.
I am, of course, prepared to change my mind and
apologize if the said book is produced somewhere,
otherwise my opinion about it still stands.

Incidentally, the facts mentioned on the web page,
purportedly in Joseph de San Buenaventura´s book, are
not irksome in the least. I have written you off list
explaining why your interpretation is erroneous and
misleading; I wish I could be spared repeating it
again.

A word of advice: attemts at humor are not an adequate
substitute for facts. Show me the book.

With best wishes,
Antonio


--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 irksome data? ... plagued with anomalies? ... got a
 round peg that just won't square up?  ... try ...
 
 Probable-B-Spurious!™
 
 yes'siree-bob ... just spray a little
 Probable-B-Spurious™ on whatever it is that ain't
 cuttin' it and your thesis troubles are over! 
 WARNING: while proved highly effective in the
 symptomatic relief of anomalies and uncorroborated
 data, Probable-B-Spurious™ has proved to be less
 than
 effective in diminishing their actual ... you know
 ...
 reality.
 
 they have a product like this in bolivia as well. 
 don't know what it's called but ... hey ... what's
 in
 a name?  they don't know what to do with this
 document
 either.  according to them the charango was invented
 in the town of potosi in the 1600's by a local
 indian
 - name escapes me - after attending a soirée of hand
 plucked vihuelas.  not surprisingly, this allegation
 of a mexican origin for their (!) national
 instrument,
 a century earlier, got the thumbs down treatment
 from
 everyone at the Asociación Internacional del
 Charango
 (A.I.C).
 
 - bill   
 
   
 --- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Dear Roger,
  
  Ortiz the musician did in fact exist. He is
  mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, in his
  _Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva
  España_, as one of the soldiers who accompanied
  Cortez
  in his venture (not in the probably spurious
 source
  Bill mentioned). There is room for confusion,
  though,
  with a second Ortiz (the first died, according to
  Bernal at the hands of the indians, who was also
 a
  musician: this second Ortiz set up what was
 probably
  the first school of music and dancing in the New
  world, with an interesting circumstance: he
  requested
  that a new plot of land be accorded to him,
 because
  next to the one he had, in the Calle de las
 Gayas,
  the first brothel in the New World was founded.
  
  With best wishes,
  Antonio
  
  
  
  --- Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   - Original Message -
   From: Cinque Cento [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Bad translation of the first of
 11
   short stories.(who
   volunteers the next?)
   
   
Ortiz the musician
   
by Nestor Guestrin, winner of the Concurso
  Hamlet
   Lima Quintana 2002
   
http://es.geocities.com/nestorguestrin/cuentos
http://cuentos.nestorguestrin.cjb.net
   
   
   
   
   Thanks, this is interesting. But could you give
 a
   little background please.
   
   Is this a piece of fiction written by Nestor
 (and
   translated by you), or is
   this Nestor's transcription of one of Ortiz's
   auto-biographical works (and
   here translated by you)?
   
   Is this the same Diego Ortiz who published in
 1553
   the viol treatise titled;
   Tratado de glosas sobre cláusulas y otros
 géneros
   de puntos en la música de
   violones
   
   Thanks
   Roger
   
   
   
   To get on or off this list see list information
 at
  
 

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Roger,

I'm sorry to say that the charango story, endearing as
it may be, simply does not hold water in what concerns
the sixteenth-century plucked vihuela. The charango
may probably be a local offshoot of the
seventeenth-century five-course guitarra española,
or baroque guitar, which was also played by strumming
-as the charango is- and shares a five-course,
reentrant tuning. Its size and sound quality brings to
mind the reference to a chillador (in all
probability a small-sized baroque guitar) in Pablo
Minguet's booklets of c. 1752, which mentions that it
should be played with fast strumming to make it
squeak. We should also take into account the changing
usage of the word vihuela, which was freely used
during and after the seventeenth century to mean,
simply, guitar.

With best wishes,
Antonio


--- Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 - Original Message -
 From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:29 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of
 11 short
 stories.(who volunteers the next?)
 
 
  Dear Bill,
 
  The source you quote, Historias de la Conquista
 del
  Mayab, by a certain Fray Joseph de Buenaventura,
 is
  mentionesd by Carlos Alberto Fernández Acevedo in
 the
  web page in your signature in the following terms:
 
  La historia surgió con motivo de un viaje que
 realicé
  a México, a raíz del cual leí el hermoso libro
  Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva
  España de Bernal Díaz del Castillo, soldado de
 Hernán
  Cortés, que relató con maestría esa epopeya, y más
  precisamente el libro Historias de la Conquista
 del
  Mayab de Fray Joseph de San Buenaventura, que
 narra
  detalles de la conquista de la península de
 Yucatán.
 
  It strikes me as utterly improbable that if such a
  book existed, it would be unavailable in the
 principal
  libraries and archives of Mexico, especailly
 taking
  into account what your source states about
 consulting
  it con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México,
 that
  is because of a trip I made to Mexico. Believe
 me, I
  am very interested in finding out the truth of
 this
  story, and I have looked for the said book at
 every
  possible place. Failing to find it in the main
  repositories, and taking into account the fact
 that no
  historian of the conquest and its times ever
 mentions
  it, I am forced to believe that such a source is
  merely wishful thinking by the author mentioned
 above.
  I am, of course, prepared to change my mind and
  apologize if the said book is produced somewhere,
  otherwise my opinion about it still stands.
 
  Incidentally, the facts mentioned on the web page,
  purportedly in Joseph de San Buenaventura´s book,
 are
  not irksome in the least. I have written you off
 list
  explaining why your interpretation is erroneous
 and
  misleading; I wish I could be spared repeating it
  again.
 
  A word of advice: attemts at humor are not an
 adequate
  substitute for facts. Show me the book.
 
  With best wishes,
  Antonio
 
 
 
 
 Jeez, you mean after all this time the creepy-crawly
 charango story might
 actually be a fairy tale! And I was just about to
 ask Bill the other day
 exactly what kind of European pre-curser
 iconographical evidence he was
 looking for, i.e. simply diminutive vihuela-guitars?
 If so, that's not so
 hard to do/find, I have a bunch I could point to,
 plucked and bowed.
 
 Hey Bill, I hope this doesn't shake your core
 foundation myth too hard. I
 kind of enjoy your obsessing over your little
 charango's history and origin.
 I have a nice tenor Uke, and I love it too, it's
 sound, cute as a puppy,
 endearing little creature -- whether it's literally
 _made_ from one or not
 ;')
 
 Roger
 
 
 




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[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Bill,

Perhaps you would care to visit the following page.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=onlineaid=43765#

Unfortunately the links therein do not seem to work
with my browser, but an abstract of the article
concerned with this page states:


Research Article
THE “CANEK MANUSCRIPT” AND OTHER FAKED DOCUMENTS
Hanns J. Prem
Seminar für Völkerkunde, Universität Bonn,
Römerstrasse 164, D-53117 Bonn, Germany

Abstract
During the last two decades, four manuscripts have
surfaced, all purportedly of sixteenth- to
eighteenth-century origin and each describing
historical episodes of the contact between the Maya
and Spaniards. Although some of them received
scholarly attention and have been used as authentic
sources of Maya history and culture, their
identification as modern fakes can be established
beyond a reasonable doubt. The texts show
characteristics identical to the Spanish translation
of Sylvanus G. Morley's The Ancient Maya (1947), and
they possess specific information and illustrative
material (i.e., Mayan hieroglyphs) that were drawn
from this work, indicating that these manuscripts were
created between 1950 and 1965.


I shall try to establish contact with Herr Prem to
find out if the Joseph de San Buenaventura is one of
these four manuscripts.

With best wishes,
Antonio




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[LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Vance,

According to the available evidence, vihuelas could be
either strung with a double or a single first course;
therefore you can be perfectly historical if you
want to use a single first (I do). 

With best wishes,
Antonio

--- Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Rob:  I agree with you it could be a very useful
 endeavour.  You play
 Vihuela?, that's close enough.  By the way, do you
 use the doubled first
 course?  I understand that is the way the Vihuela is
 designed but everyone I
 have heard talk about the subject do not use the
 doubled first course.
 
 Vance
 - Original Message - 
 From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:47 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching
 
 
  No, I really don't play the lute. Haven't got one.
 Vihuela and guitar. So
  what am I doing on this list? Well, sometimes
 something important and
  meaningful gets said. Enjoying the Sermisy thread.
 
  If enough people had webcams, it would be good to
 have a masterclass
  scenario, or workshop. The technology is all
 there, and broadband makes it
  feasible, but it is a strange new world for many
 of us. I bet that most of
  us don't have broadband yet. It is still
 expensive, and is not everywhere.
 I
  don't have a digital camera. If I did I would put
 videos on my vihuela
 site.
  I really like watching hands moving over a
 fretboard. Something mystical
  about it! And not just professional players. It
 may be the teacher in me,
  but I still get a thrill out of watching and
 listening to beginners. I
  really do love it. A simple phrase can just open
 me up, if played with
  feeling. It doesn't have to be technically
 correct.
 
  So that is my hope for the future. Instead of
 talking and talking and
  talking via email, we all get in a virtual room
 and pass the lute around.
  We're not quite there yet...
 
  Rob
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Arne Keller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: 21 November 2005 19:30
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist'
  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching
 
  At 17:31 21-11-2005 -, Rob MacKillop wrote:
  Video would be better. Possible too. How many
 would be interested in
  video lessons? Unfortunately, I don't play the
 lute.
  
  Rob MacKillop
  www.musicintime.co.uk
 
  No, I'd say: You play it very, very fortunately!
 
  Bast wishes,
 
  Arne Keller.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
 

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 




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[LUTE] Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [VIHUELA] What is the historical vihuela?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Monica,

The Quito Instrument has been examined and measured by
Egberto Bermudez, who published his results in:  

“La vihuela: los ejemplares de París y Quito - The
Vihuela: the Paris and Quito Instruments” in _La
guitarra española-The Spanish Guitar. Catálogo de la
exposición realizada en Nueva York_ (The Metropolitan
Museum of Art) y Madrid (Museo Municipal 1991-1992),
Madrid: Sociedad Estatal Quinto Centenario, pp. 25-47,

and later in:
“La vihuela de la iglesia de la Compañía de Jesús de
Quito”,  Revista Musical Chilena (año XLVII, no. 179,
1993). pp. 69-77.

According to Bermudez, the string-length is 727 cm.,
quite large for a solo instrument, but taking into
account its late date, and the fact that it probably
was the instrument used by Santa Mariana de Jesus to
accompany herself singing devout  songs, it seems
likely that it may have been played strummed, despite
the fact that it is a six-cpourse instrument. As  you
well know, at the turn of the 17th century things
begin to become a bit confused regarding names and
functions.

Regarding Dias' attribution as a guitar, I would stand
by what I have already mentioned in this list:
according to what the sources tell us, during the main
part of the sixteenth century six- and five-course
instruments were called vihuelas, while the
four-course ones were considred guitars. More about
all this confusion in my article:

“The Vihuela and the Guitar in Sixteenth-Century
Spain: a Critical Appraisal of Some of the Existing
Evidence”, The Lute (vol. 30, 1990), pp. 3-24

Therefore, in my view, we might either consider the
Dias instrument as a latish five-course vihuela or,
taking into account that it is precisely in 1580 that
the references to strumming begin to appear, we could
also consider it as one of the first specimens of the
guitarra española; at this point I cannot find
reasons to favour one interpretation over another.

Incidentally, about musicologists geting to grips with
vihuela organology, you may find it amusing that I was
comissoned to write an article precisely on this topic
for the cité de la musique:

“L’organographie de la vihuela”, in _Aux origines de
la guitare: la vihuela de mano_, les cahiers du museé
de la musique 5, Parìs: cité de la musique, 2004, pp.
16-28.

I would hesitate to affirm that the guitar was the
smallest member of the vihuela consort family. We
know that six-course vihuelas were indeed built in
several sizes, including small ones, to which we
should add that (save in Andalusia) the guitar
fulfilled a different function in the hands of a
totally different stratum of society. While it is true
that they share certain characteristics of
construction, this fact does not automatically make
the vihuela and the guitar part of a same family in
the sense as lutes, viols or recorders were: to my
knowledge, there is no sixteenth-century reference
before the appearance of rasgado to a consort where
vihuela and guitar played together, with the exception
of the last piece of Valderrabano's _Silva de
Sirenas_, where it was probably called for on account
of the simple accompaniment required. This is hardly a
consort piece, but rather a virtuoso display of the
vihuela with the guitar performing the simplest
accompaniment we could think of (playing the same
single chord over and over).

With best wishes,
Antonio




--- Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 As far as the Quito instrument is concerned, few
 people have actually seen
 it, and as far as I am aware no one has actually
 been allowed to examine it
 thoroughly.  Even the string length seems to be in
 some doubt.
 
   For those who adhere to the Dias' attribution to
 a guitar, one's got to
  reverse the above procedure, with only one major
 inconvenience of
 accepting
  its third eye for a peg hole. It would certainly
 help if more
  musicologists (who largely write about the
 vihuela) could get to grips
 with
  organology.
 
 If you are referring to me - I have visited the
 R.C.M. and spent a lot of
 time looking at this particular instrument- in so
 far as one is able to
 without being able to handle it.
 
 It seems to me that there is no way in which you can
 prove that it was
 originally a 6-course instrument rather than a
 5-course one.
 
  In the time of Bermudo, the vihuela was, so to
 say, a consort family
  instrument (as was its contemporary the lute in
 Italy) and so the
  guitar was its smaller family member
 
 The problem with Bermudo (without going into too
 much detail) is that he
 seems to suggest that the guitarra is actually a
 different instrument from
 the vihuela, mentioning for example 5  6 course
 instruments as well as the
 4-course one.  There are separate chapters for it
 along with the bandurria
 and it is just possible, although like everything
 else to do with the
 vihuela/guitarra rather speculative, that he is
 referring to a
 mandola/mandora/vandola.
 
   academic, technical term) into the baroque
 guitar. Fuenllana's
   five-course
   'vihuela' 

[LUTE] Re: Baxa and Guardame

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends,

In my opinion, the Guardame las Vacas ground, as
treated by Narváez does indeed alternate binary and
ternary groupings, but not in a regular fashion.
Almost all of the first diferencia is organized in a
ternary pattern, save for the cadences at bars 10-12
and 20-22. This organization becomes evident from the
fact that the melodic pattern in bars 1-3 is
mirrored in bars 4-6 and their subsequent
repetitions. 

The second differencia offers more variety, beginning
with two ternary groups followed by three binary, two
ternary and three binary ones. The repeat begins in a
similar fashion: two ternary groups, but is followed
by  six binary ones plus the final chord. In this
case, besides the logic of the melody, the bass
provides a further guide as to the internal
organization.

The first section of the third diferencia is made up
by eight ternary groups, clearly indicated by the
repeated melodic motiff. The second begins with two
further ternary groupings, followed by a section
(bars 16-18) which could be intrepreted either as
binary or ternary groupings. In my view, this passage
is still organized in ternary groups judging from the
way in which the harmony (if I may use
anachronistically the term, purely for pragmatic
reasons) shifts at the middle of bar 17. The remaining
three groups are binary, closing with the final chord.

The first half of the final diferencia is, again,
organized in eight ternary groups; a glance at the
rhythmic signs shows plainly the regular pattern in
which the motiffs are organized. This is followed by
an ascending scale which could be interpreted in
several ways; the one I find most logical is three
binry groups folowed by two ternary ones which leads
us into a transition before the final cadential
passage; this transition is made up of two ternary
groups and two binary ones. The final cadence begins
with a binary group followed by six ternary ones.

Finally, it is not altogether correct to thing of
tablature bars as having similar implications as the
modern bar-line in terms of accentuation. They serve
as a guide, dividing the piece into small sections of
similar duration, but they do not determine its
accentual organization. Perhaps this is better
illustrated in the editions of Capirola by Gombossi
and Da Milano by Ness, or -in Spanish sources- by the
Gallarda by Mudarra and the Pavana muy llana para
tañer of Pisador, both of them ternary pieces barred
entirely in bars of two.

Cheers,
Antonio

--- Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Oct 10, 2005, at 2:06 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:
 
  I must admit it came as a bit of a revelation to
 me that the
  piece was based on threes and twos. I had known
 for decades that most
  Spanish music alternates these groupings, but for
 some reason I never
  applied it to 'Vacas', and I can't remember anyone
 else doing so  
  either. I
  may be completely wrong. However, for me, it was a
 'Duh!' moment.  
  How could
  I have missed it for so long? And now I'm
 wondering if everyone  
  thinks I'm
  crazy, and it has nothing to do with these
 groupings...The original is
  notated entirely in twos.
 
 I had something similar happen with a Dalza piece
 recently. I'd  
 always known where it went into two or three, but I
 suddenly got an  
 insight that the twos were always in groups of
 threes, sometimes two  
 groups of threes. It is like stepping up a level and
 seeing the big  
 picture. And I felt exactly the same way, a bit
 embarrassed that I  
 hadn't noticed such an 'obvious' organizational
 parameter earlier.
 cheers,
 PS. Your playing always sounds great to me, and the
 Guardame was no  
 exception.
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano or ukulele

[Antonio Corona]

Does the subject line imply any relationship between
the ukulele and the jarana?

Best wishes
Antonio




--- Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  the ukulele is a european instrument, directly
 linked
  to an early tradition.  its arrival in the new
 world
  is well documented and it hasn't changed a bit
 since. 
  its association with hawaii is so complete that
 its
  hawaiian name is universally accepted to be its
 real
  name.
 
 Apropos of nothing, I used to run a ukulele mail
 list too.  But it got pretty slow and I cosed it
 down.
 Now the uke action seems to be at 
 
  http://www.fleamarketmusic.com/
 
 I searched for vihuela there and did not come up
 with anything.  There are hits for baroque and 
 fleamarketmusic, so from this I can infer that
 the uke is closer to baroque guitar...
 
   Wayne
 
 
 
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Re: Fw: Byrd

[Antonio Corona]

An unlikely combination, unless you wish them to kill
each other...

--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 VILLA, ZAPATA, CARRANZA  HUERTA.
 RT
 
   The vihuela quartet is forming. does
 anyone
   have a good idea for a
   name for a vihuela quartet?  Please, do not call
 it
   the vihuela quartet.
  
   ed
 
  los charangos...?
 
  and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell
 of a creepy crawly... -
 Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la
 Conquista del Mayab by Fra
 Joseph of San Buenaventura.  go to:
 http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: cement

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Manolo and friends,

I am surprised, if your friend consulted Corominas, to
read that he finds the origins of vihuela obscure.
Corominas does make a rather good case for deriving
vihuela from the Latin fides, string, via fidula,
fidicula, vitula, viula, etc. (I cannot remember
exactly as I am quoting from memory). In any case,
both terms, vihuela and viola, derive from the same
root and were even used intercheangaby on occassion
from the 15th to the 17th centuries. On the other
hand, the spelling varied widely since the written
Spanish of the sixteenth century was more phonetic
than nowadays when we have adopted the French
etymologic rules (but that is another matter). The
point is that you will find quite a variety of ways to
call the instrument: vihuela, viguela, viyuela,
biguela, bihuela, etc. 

With best wishes,
Antonio



--- Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear list, dear Mathias, dear Arthur,
 
 I asked a friend, who teaches linguistics (more
 specifically 
 lexicography) at the university in Madrid.
 He said: The suffix -uelo (now it is in
 masculinum) as a diminuitive 
 comes from the latin diminuitive form -olo. The
 o at the beginning 
 of -olo is short, and therefore diphtongs to ue
 in spanish.
 Then he looked into the main spanish etimologic
 dictionary (the 
 multivolume Corominas), and found the recognition
 of an ignorance: the 
 origins of the word vihuela are very obscure. My
 friend told me that 
 every time he reads such acceptances of ignorance in
 the said dictionary 
 he takes 'cum grano sali' the etimologies that
 follow, because they can 
 be quite bizarre.
 Regarding -uela in the case of vihuela, he does
 not think that it 
 could have a diminuitive meaning.
 But he agrees with the possibility of a relationship
 between viola and 
 vihuela.
 I told him about Venezuela as a diminuitive of
 Venecia (=Venice), 
 and he was quite surprised. He said: OK, toponimics
 are not my 
 speciality...
 
 Saludos from Barcelona,
 
 Manolo Laguillo
 
 PS By the way, for those with enough fluency in
 spanish, there is a 
 modern edition (not a facsimil, but much better, a
 transcription) of the 
 first edition (1611) of the famous dictionary by
 Covarrubias, the first 
 for the spanish language:
 
 http://www.altafulla.com/ad_lit/covarrubias.htm
 
 
 
 
 Mathias Rösel wrote:
 
 I lack control of Spanish, unfortunately, but
 with -uela is a
 diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that
 vihuela is from a word
 like VIHA?
   
 
 
 actually, I was under the impression that *vihuela*
 is just another form
 of the word *viola*, with the letter E signifying
 the lengthened vowel U
 (vihooola). Once the stress was shifted from U to
 E, the last four
 letters have come to resemble the Spanish
 diminuitive ending -uela.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Mathias
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Re: Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

 --- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
 
 you say potato - i say potato  ... let's call
 the
 whole thing off.
 
 regards - bill
  

Dear Bill,

I shall be pleased to oblige.

Best regards,
Antonio





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Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Bill,

How right you are. In the remote case that the
Historias de la Conquista del Mayab proved to be
genuine, I would require more evidence than what this
text alone tells to consider that there might be a
relationship between the vihuela and the charango.
There are certain statements in this text that are not
altogether convincing proof of such an association
but, in order to pose the pertinent questions, perhaps
I should quote all of the relevant text. I apologize
for the length of this post, but there are some points
that require to have as full a story as possible.

First, some historical facts: according to the
website, the text concerns Gonzalo de Guerrero who was
shipwrecked off the coast of Yucatan, arriving to the
island of Cozumel; no further information is provided
as to when this happened. This much is true. Guerrero
was indeed shipwrecked in 1511, and decideed to adopt
the way of life of the natives, marrying the daughter
of a local chieftain. His whereabouts were not known
until 1519, when Cortes learned that there were
Spaniards among the Indians from Yucatan, and tried to
bring him back. Guerrero refused, arguing that he was
married and had daughters. These facts are mentioned
by Bernal Diaz del Castillo in his Historia Verdadera
de la Conquista de la Nueva España. The website does
not provide ant details about the date of the
Conquistas del Mayab, or any other relevant
bibliographical data, and only states that the
invention of the charango must have happened c.1512,
without aducing any suporting proof. How did he - or
Joseph de San Buenaventura - arrived at this dating,
we are left to guess. 

In order to discuss the various points, I shall
alternate the original text with its translation and
discussion. The text states that:

. Y pasó el tiempo en que me estoy yo con el ahau
galel, así que él aprendió muy bien el trabajo de
carpintero, así como yo dime maña para enseñarle lo
que sabía, que yo aprendílo en mi mocedad allá en
Badajoz de la provincia de Extremadura, aunque mi
señor padre don Juan Guerrero y mi señora, madre doña
Rosario de Bahamonde en nada quisieron que yo aprenda
oficio de artesano por tener ellos descendencia de
hidalgos y ser bien nacidos, ...

.. And the time passed when I was with the ahau
galel [these terms should be verified as well, I
claim no knowledge of Mayan], and he [meaning the
ahau galel] learned very well the craft of a
carpenter, and I tried as best as I could to teach him
all I know, which I learned in my youth at Badajoz, in
the province of Extremadura, even though my father don
Juan Guerrero and my mother doña Rosario de Bahamonde
were opposed to my learning any craft since they
descended from hidalgos and were well-born.

[According to this, we have a descendant of hidalgos
learning a craft: his parents would no doubt be
opposed. This part of the story is so unlikely as to
cast the first shadows of doubt on this source.
Secondly, from what the website informs us, the ahau
galel was the eldest brother of a princess, i.e. a
prince. Was he to learn carpentry as well?]

yo teníale mucha afición a la esta arte de carpintero
y lo aprendí en la casa de maese Andrés de
Piedrasanta, que era un excelente tallador de la
madera y decorábala de mucho esplendor y más belleza,
y era escultor muy bueno para hacer imágenes y más en
hacer instrumentos músicos, y yo lo aprendí muy
bien... 

I was very fond of this art of carpentry, and learned
it at the house of maese Andrés de Piedrasanta, who
was an excellent carver of wood, and decorated it with
splendour and beauty, and he was a very good sculptor
making images, and even more in making musical
instruments, and I learned very well.

[Besides the improbable fact of an hidalgo deigning to
stoop down and learn a trade - something considered
degrading for his class - we have another
inconsistency: although the Ordenanzas - craft
regulations - for carpenters and violeros were in
the same group, they are separate, each mentioning
aspects relevant to each trade, thereby indicating 
each one was considered as separate. Was maese Andrés
a carpenter or a violero?]

Y así hice para el joven galel un gambarrino, que es
una vihuela corta, que así la hicimos con la caparazón
de ese animalejo que hay aquí y que dícenle por nombre
wech, que es un animal torpe que en nada es astuto o
listo y que la su defensa es soterrarse en las
cuevecillas o cubiles que para él mismo abre en la
tierra y métese ahí para guarecerse de los enemigos
que tenga, que no es agresivo en nada pero que tiene
un carapacho muy fuerte y se esconde la cabeza y las
cuatro patas adentro de la caparazón

And thus I made a gambarrino, which is a short
vihuela, for the young galel, and we made it with
the shell of an animal found here, which is called
wech [something else to verify], which is dull of
mind, not at all cunning or clever, and whose defense
is to bury itself in the small caves or lairs which it
opens in the ground and goes inside to protect 

RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Arthur,

Thank you so much for the link, but I'm afraid that
all the informatiuon they provide there is utterly
wrong, beginning with the fact that Guatemala is not
in Mexico (even at the time it was a separate
Capitanía general), that the Spanish chacona has
little to do with later chaconnes, as it also happens
with the pasacalles and passacaglia, nor was king
Philip III married in Tampico. There are certainly
grounds to suppose that the chacona originated in New
Spain, but no definite proof about this has surfaced
yet.

Richard Hudson has made some excelent studies; I'm
afraid I haven´t got the references handy, but it
would be worthwhile, if you are interested, to find
them. Besides, he links the evolution of several dance
forms with the Baroque guitar (or guitarra española
as it was called at the time) and its influence.

Best regards,
Antonio


 --- Fossum, Arthur [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
 Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of
 Chaconne and Passacaglia
 and the new world.
 
 http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more
 lute related, maybe
 
 Dear all,
 
 
  --- Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  
  Early colonial life was hard!  The early English
 and
  Spanish colonies in 
  North America were not characterized by much
 musical
  cultural growth, and 
  there is little evidence of lute playing or making
  in those times.  Musical 
  instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at
  home by emigrating 
  colonists.  By the time much of any kind of
 musical
  life was enjoyed by the 
  residents of the colonies, we were pretty well
 into
  the Baroque.  
 
 
 
 The situation regarding Mexico is quite the
 opposite:
 musical activities, both liturgical and secular,
 began
 even as the conquest was taking place, and continued
 to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period.
 This process is well documented in numerous sources
 and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that
 the first printing press and the first university in
 the American continent were founded in Mexico City.
 Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during
 the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain
 nobles
 and authorities towards natives, brought with them
 their whole culture, including, of course, music
 which
 was shared freely with the Indian population - as an
 aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless
 making
 it part of the common culture being forged at the
 time. The Indians appreciated the new music and
 learned with amazing speed both how to play and how
 to
 make the instruments - which were also imported from
 Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned
 above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period.
 
 The music in the archives from the cathedrals and
 churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala,
 Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample
 proof
 that there was indeed a musical cultural growth.
 Here
 we can find music imported from Europe in great
 quantities, but also a wealth of works composed
 locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding
 quality,
 not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at
 the time. Nowadays there is a great number of
 recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those
 interested in folowing up this topic.
 
 Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de violeros,
 that is, the regulations of the guild of
 vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
 published
 in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the 
 guild of Mexican violeros in 1568. This must
 surely
 mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
 certainly
 flourishing at the time.
 
 With best regards,
 Antonio
 
 
 
 
   
   
   

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Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Roger,

An update to your update. I am sorry to disappoint you
but, even though the frescos in the Capilla del Aceite
indeed date from the 14th century, the painting in
question is a 20th-century restoration, and a botched
job at that. I have know this picture for a long time,
I´ve been to Salamanca and seen it personally.
Unfortunately I do not have at hand the documentation
I obtained at the Cathedral, where it is stated that
the frescoes of the Capilla had undergone the
aforesaid restoration, but I would advice you to
evaluate this picture with extreme caution, bearing in
mind that we do not know the extent of the repairs.
I too found it a facinating instrument.

With best wishes,
Antonio




 --- Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 Hi all;
 
 Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar
 story (to viola da gamba
 ulitmately), I've just add this instrument:
 

http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg
 Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola
 sine arculo), 1300s.
 Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite.
 Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite
 Catedral Vieja da Salamanca
 
 Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?)
 string
 Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very
 old, and will probably
 link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps
 even the 9th cent
 Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder
 mounted (or forearm
 bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps
 then even the
 Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates
 c.926 AD. The
 instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied.
 Another intermediate
 instrument, to help solidify those earlier
 connections would be nice. If any
 of you stumble upon one please let me know.
 
 It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs
 originally evolved as a
 bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device
 (hook it up over your
 right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain
 manuscript instruments
 also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end
 of the instrument (i.e.
 stabalization and support were an issue on the
 larger instruments.)
 
 Thanks
 
 Roger
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

Dear all,

Once again .


 --- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
 surely this is a case of putting the cart before the
 horse.
 
If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call
the instruments they made, and designated them with
such names in their own documents, implies putting a
cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the
connection.


 - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de
 mano that required it having a new name?


I do not share the hypothesis that the charango
derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe I
should  have to provide an explanation for a theory I
personally find mistaken.

 
 - at what point do derivations - alternative
 tunings,
 decorative embellishments, different building
 materials - necessitate this change? 


Same as above.

 
 - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the
 new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw
 away
 their molds and drawing plans and started to make
 charangos?  when did this happen?


I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my view
it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it would
mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the
charango, a connection I don't believe obtains.

 
 based on what was said during the last go-around on
 the subject, i suspect that the answer is don't
 know.   if that's the case, i suggest that don't
 know makes it equally plausible that a charango is
 a
 bona-fide vihuela de mano.  in fact, its shape and
 the
 quote below make it more than plausible.
 
 - bill 


Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest
precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be
verified. I've know of it for a long time: it appears
in almost every other site that deals with the
charango. However, I have not been able to find either
the original edition of the said book, or a modern
one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the fact
that I live in Mexico, where the said book is
purported to have been written. The date is also
wrong: according to the facts provided in the said
quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been
accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would
thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly probable.
I am tempted to consider this source as spurious until
some proof of its veracity is produced.

Another fact that needs to be taken into account when
dealing with literary sources is that the nomenclature
does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument. As
an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth
century mention a vihuela when the context makes it
plain that they mean a guitar. There is a welll-known
source from the fifteenth century, _Vision delectable
de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while
the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I
could go on with this subject, save for the fact that
I do not believe it is germane to the topic under
consideration, especially since the Historias de la
conquista del Mayab seems to be a fabrication. 

As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice
from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to
heed: verify your references. I´m sorry, but the
authority of a website without any other supporting
evidence is not good enough for me. 


With best regards,
Antonio

 
 - --- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation
  whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew
  how
  to name the instruments they made.
  
  Antonio
  
  
  
   --- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote: 
--- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de
   violeros,
that is, the regulations of the guild of
vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
published
in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim
 for
   the 
guild of Mexican violeros in 1568. This must
surely
mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
certainly
flourishing at the time.
   
   
   any mention of the word charango or were the
  poor
   deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela
  de
   manos under the wrong name?
   
   what news of the vihuela society?
   
   - bill
   
   =
   and thus i made...a small vihuela from the
 shell
  of
   a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero
   (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by
  Fra
   Joseph of San Buenaventura.  go to: 
   http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
   
   
 
 
 
  
 

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 =
 and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell

Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation
whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew how
to name the instruments they made.

Antonio



 --- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
  --- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de
 violeros,
  that is, the regulations of the guild of
  vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
  published
  in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for
 the 
  guild of Mexican violeros in 1568. This must
  surely
  mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
  certainly
  flourishing at the time.
 
 
 any mention of the word charango or were the poor
 deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de
 manos under the wrong name?
 
 what news of the vihuela society?
 
 - bill
 
 =
 and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of
 a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero
 (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra
 Joseph of San Buenaventura.  go to: 
 http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
 
 
   
   
   

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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

Dear all,


 --- Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
 Early colonial life was hard!  The early English and
 Spanish colonies in 
 North America were not characterized by much musical
 cultural growth, and 
 there is little evidence of lute playing or making
 in those times.  Musical 
 instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at
 home by emigrating 
 colonists.  By the time much of any kind of musical
 life was enjoyed by the 
 residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into
 the Baroque.  



The situation regarding Mexico is quite the opposite:
musical activities, both liturgical and secular, began
even as the conquest was taking place, and continued
to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period.
This process is well documented in numerous sources
and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that
the first printing press and the first university in
the American continent were founded in Mexico City.
Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during
the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain nobles
and authorities towards natives, brought with them
their whole culture, including, of course, music which
was shared freely with the Indian population - as an
aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless making
it part of the common culture being forged at the
time. The Indians appreciated the new music and
learned with amazing speed both how to play and how to
make the instruments - which were also imported from
Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned
above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period.

The music in the archives from the cathedrals and
churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala,
Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample proof
that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. Here
we can find music imported from Europe in great
quantities, but also a wealth of works composed
locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding quality,
not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at
the time. Nowadays there is a great number of
recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those
interested in folowing up this topic.

Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de violeros,
that is, the regulations of the guild of
vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first published
in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the 
guild of Mexican violeros in 1568. This must surely
mean that instrument-making -and buying- was certainly
flourishing at the time.

With best regards,
Antonio







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Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Antonio Corona]

Dear David,

 
Given the preceding nearly identical passage:
 _aa
 |_d___b_|_a_ _|
 a__b|_a__b__d___|__c__|_d__
 __c_|_a_|_c___|
 |___|_|_a__
 |___|_|
 
I have been interpreting the d in the second
 measure of both passages as
the beginning of a suspension.


In my view, the d2 in the second measure is part of
the melody which comes from the first course a in
the preceding bar, thus:

 _a_
 |_d___b_|_a_ _|
 |___|_|_d__
 |___|_|
 |___|_|
 |___|_|
 
playing in counterpoint to:

 ___
 |___|___ _|
 a__b|_a__b__d___|(d)___c__|_d__
 __c_|___|_|
 |___|_|
 |___|_|
 
where the d3 (I suppose this is the one you meant)is
indeed the biginning of a suspension. The a4 in the
second bar would be an isolated bass, while the a1
in the third would be a fill-in note, as you righly
point out.

The second case is even more interesting:

 _a
 _b__a___|_d|_a_ _|
 ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__
 _c__|_a|_c___|
 _a__|__|_|_a__
 |__|_|
 

Here, in my opinion, you have only two voices:

 __
 _b__a___|__|_a_ _|
 ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__
 |_A|_C___|
 _A__|__|_|_A__
 |__|_|
 
The remaining notes would be fill-ins. Even though it
is quite tempting to think of the d3 as the
beginning of a suspension, as in the previous case, I
tend to prefer the above interpretation. It could be
feasible, of course, to consider it as similar to the
other one: in this case you would have two filling
notes at the beginning of bar 3. Now, considering the
possibility that my hypothesis about the index upward
stroke could have some substance, this could be a
possible interpretation:

  roll   roll  
 _a
 _b__a___|_d|_a_ _|
 ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__
 _c__|_a|_c___|
 _a__|__|_|_a__
 |__|_|
 

Best wishes,
Antonio

P.S. I should like to thank Stewart for forwarding my
previous messaage.



thus making the open first course in the third
 measure of both passages as a
bonus note.
Is  this not the correct interpretation? Is this
 type of thing open to
conjecture?
It would take some adjustment for me to think of
 these passages as strict
3-part harmony.
Thanks,
David


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Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Stewart,

I´m glad you agree with me about the interpretation of
Milan's slow chords and fast scales; perhaps I should
also point out that Milan does not specify this kind
of treatment for all of his fantasias -just in case
someone might be tempted to make a broad
generalization- but it is also appropriate for his
tientos and some of his songs (romances). Fantasia 11,
which you mention, is one of my favourites and your
description of how to play the first bars is precisely
how I envisage it, with another slight twist.


 Your e-mail has prompted me to have a fresh look at
 Milan's Fantasy
 11, the one which begins:
 
  |\|   |\ |\|\
  | |   |\ |\|
  | |   |  |\|
 ___a__
 b_|_a|_a_|d_b_a___|___
 _d|d_|___|__d_b_a_|___
 _c|__|_c_||_c_
 _a|__|___||___
 __|__|___|_a__|___
 
 The fast notes in the fourth bar sound rather
 pedestrian if they are
 played in strict time with what has gone before, but
 they provide a
 sudden, exciting flurry of notes if they are played
 evenly, but a
 bit quicker. Presumably that is the sort of thing
 Milan had in mind.
 The tempo would revert back to the original speed at
 bar 5.

Besides the change of beat, there is something else
that my contribute to give character to this passage:
when Milan speaks of fast scales he advises using the
dedillo technique which, as most on the list will
know, consists of using only the index finger of the
right hand to pluck, moving upwards and downwards. The
insistence placed on the index by Milan has prompted
me to consider other possible implications of this
technique, and -by coincidence with a recent thread- I
believe Milan might have also used it to advantage in
rolling chords. In this particular example I suspect
that Milan may have played first the bass on the
fourth course with the thumb, followed by the first
course and finishing with the second, these two
adjacent courses played with the index. This rolling
downwards enhances the rhapsodic feeling of the
beginning of the piece but, more importantly, provides
a better voice leading by stressing the open second
course. If we assume a vihuela in A, which would fit
correct notes of the mode, the sequence would
therefore be: D,F,E,F,E instead of D,F,E,F,A which is
the way it would normally sound with the chord either
rolled upwards or played plaque. Elsewhere in Milan's
music you´ll find numerous cases where the music
benefits from this approach, and it may well pay to
make a more detailed study of Milan´s possible use of
the index finger.


 I assume the compas is shown by the barline, so
 the word is also
 used to mean bar (or measure in American English).
 For example, on
 folio 5v Milan talks about 20 bars of music - En
 estos veynte
 compasses de musica.
 
Quite right, you can confirm this usage in that very
same folio: en el deziseteno compas /ay vn punto en
la postrera minima. El dicho punto es del deziocheno
compas: y por esso le toma vna raya: y le passa al
otro compas (on bar 17 there is a dot on the last
minim. This dot belongs to bar 18 and that is why it
goes across the line and passes to the other bar),
besides many oter similar cases. 


 On sig. Lv there is a rubric saying how the piece
 should be played.
 Typically he talks about the mode and the speed. As
 far as the speed
 is concerned, he uses the word apriesa for fast,
 and espacio for
 slow: tañer ni muy apriesa ni muy a espacio = play
 not very fast
 and not very slow. My Spanish is virtually
 non-existent, but am I
 right in thinking that these are not the usual words
 for fast and
 slow? Does apriesa mean hurried, pressing on, and
 espacio spaced
 out? If so, they are the sort of words one would use
 to encourage a
 student to play expressively, rather than the
 prosaic fast and
 slow for a more mechanical tempo.

Well, these terms are not quite what you would find in
modern Spanish, but whenever the vihuelists refer to
tempo they use these or similar words. For example,
Valderrabano mentions three different tempi to use in
his pieces: a espacio (slowly), apriessa (fast), muy
mas apriessa (much more faster), so I don´t think
there might be an implication of character or
expression in them. 

 
 My other thought concerns the mode. Why should the
 player need to
 know the mode, if all the notes are there in front
 of him? Is it
 because there is a mood associated with each mode?
 Knowing the mode
 would then give the player information on the mood
 he should try to
 create - happy, sad, introspective, aggressive, etc.
 
 I'd be very interested to know what you think.
 
 All the best,
 
 Stewart.
 
 
None of the vihuelists mention any connection between
mood and mode, but this does not necessarily means it
did not exist. Some time ago I compiled a table of how
several different theoreticians characterized each

New vihuela society

[Antonio Corona]

Dear friends

It gives me great pleasure to announce that last
saturday, september 25, the Spanish Vihuela Society
was formally constituted. At this point, when things
are beginning to shape up, and as far as I am aware of
(I was unable to attend the founding meeting) the
memberships are not yet open, but I shall keep you
posted of new developments.

With best regards,
Antonio

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Re: Viola sine arculo = Vihuela ?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Daniel,

Yes, to all intents and purposes the viola is the
Italian equivalent of the vihuela, both from the
nomenclature point of view as well as from he
organological. It may be worthwhile to remember, among
other Italian sources, the two books with music by
Francesco published at Naples in 1536 (same year as El
Maestro by Milan - a nice coincidence), which state on
the titlepage that they are intended for viola o vero
lauto, or Bartholomeo Lieto Panhormitano's Dialogo
Quarto di Musica ... per Viola a Mano o ver Liuto
(Naples, 1559). A point that should be stressed here:
Naples was, at the time, under Spanish rule. 

Regarding the fifteenth-century intruments and names,
Johannes Tinctoris stated in his De Inventione et Usu
Musicae of c.1487 that while some play every sort of
composition most delightfully on the lute, in Italy
and Spain the viola without a bow is more often used,
having said before that this instrument was invented
by the Spanish, which both they and the Italian call
the viola, and that this viola was flat and, in most
cases curved inwards on each side, as opposed to the
lute which is described as larger and
tortoise-shaped. The Inventione et Usu Musicae was
published ... where else, in Naples, and dedicated to
the Neapolitan king Ferdinand I (not to be confused
with the Spanish Ferdinand, the Catholic).

With best regards,
Antonio

 --- Daniel F Heiman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribió: 
 Since the May 2004 issue of Early Music has been
 brought up, I suggest
 all who have access to it take a look at the article
 on page 177, The
 Spanish plucked viola in Renaissance Italy, 1480 –
 1530, by Hiroyuki
 Minamino.  He has compiled a remarkable amount of
 iconographic evidence
 from all over the Italian peninsula for what may
 well be the vihuela of
 the turn of the sixteenth century.  The paintings
 show a relatively large
 instrumnent (string length perhaps in the low 60 cm
 range based on
 proportion to the players' bodies) played with the
 strings near
 horizontal.  The bridge appears glued to the
 soundboard; the sides are
 vertical, and the back is flat or nearly so, based
 on the way the
 instrument sits against the body of the player.  The
 outline consistently
 has bouts, sometimes smooth, like a classical
 guitar, sometimes with
 sharp ends like the modern violin family, and once
 mixed. (Gambas of the
 Renaissance and Baroque also show this kind of
 inconsistency in outline).
 The neck is fairly long, and, when the level of
 detail provided allows
 for counting, seems to have about 10 tied frets.
 There are apparently six
 or sometimes five courses. The only significant
 deviation from the
 instruments pictured in Milan is that on these
 instruments pegbox has the
 pegs oriented parallel to the soundboard and is
 curved like that of a
 gamba or violin (However, one low-detail.engraving
 shows a lute-style
 pegbox, folded back.)
 
 So did the Iberians call these things vihuelas in
 1480?  They certainly
 look as if they could play the vihuela music of the
 mid-sixteenth
 century.
 
 For those without ready access to Early Music
 magazine, take a look
 online at:
 

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11viewMode=1item=
 20%2E92
 (front and near center, angel musician)
 
 This is the only one of the examples I was able to
 find on the Internet
 in a quick search.
 
 Regards,
 
 Daniel Heiman
 


 Get your name as your email address.
 Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and
 more
 Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name
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Re: vihuela vs guitar

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Goran,

You are perfectly right. I was speaking of the most
common instruments; Juan Bermudo mentions a
seven-course vihuela in his Declaracion de
Instrumentos (1555), and the famous vihuelist Luis de
Guzman is reputed to play on one as well. The 40032
manuscript definitely has pieces for a seven-course
instrument - I am tempted to identify it as a vihuela
as well; and the Declaración de Verdaderos Retratos by
Pacheco (second half of the sixteenth century, I can't
recall offhand the precise date) mentions that the
vihuelist Pedro de Madrid used an eight-course
vihuela.

With best wishes,
Antonio


 --- G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: 
 
 Fra: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 A rough definition of the vihuela could run in these
 terms: a guitar-shaped (a polemic description, I'm
 aware, but also a practical one) instrument used in
 15th- and 16th century Spain and areas of Spanish
 influence, strung with 5 or 6 courses of strings,
 played by plucking with the fingers (in the same
 fashion as the lute)
 
 I recall hearing of 7 course instruments as well.
 The Barbarino (40032) ms.
 has many pieces for an allegedly 7 course vihuela
 in the Spanish Naples
 dominion around the 1580s.
 
 Göran
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: vihuela vs guitar

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Jon,

I thank you for your corrrection, I meant polemic as
an adjective: of, relating to, or being a polemic:
controversial. It should have been polemical. Now to
more interesting bussiness.




 --- Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: 
 Antonio,
 
 With Vance I thank you for the description (and the
 drawings I've seen
 confirm them).
 
 But if you will forgive me for correcting your
 English (and I only do so as
 I prefer to be corrected when I speak in another
 language). I don't think
 you mean polemic when describing the vihuela.
 Polemic means aggressive
 or attacking, and can be used as a noun (as in a
 polemic) or as an
 adjective (as a polemic speech - sometimes misused
 as a polemical
 speech). You might mean generic, as in a word
 that refers to a class of
 things - or you might mean something else (but your
 meaning is clear from
 the context).
 
 But the guitar versus the vihuela raises and
 interesting question at to the
 form of the music, rather than the form of the
 instrument. My source book on
 ancient and modern instruments classifies the
 vihuela with the guitars, etc.
 But notes that it is a guitar shape tuned as a
 lute. Given that the lute
 tuning seems to be older (can't prove that, but it
 seems to be), then why
 did the Spanish change the tuning? (On the
 assumption that the guitar
 tuning is an adaptation). It is a minor change, just
 shifting which course
 has the third step. My guess is that the guitar
 tuning allowed the left
 hand to move as a whole into chording patterns for
 polyphony, whereas the
 lute tuning developed before polyphony. Although I
 play both I'm too new
 to the lute to answer my question, but the fingering
 patterns seem to
 suggest that. Comments solicited.
 
 Best, Jon
 

Forget about what your book says. The reference to
guitar tunings, probably meaning the modern guitar's
interval disposition, only serves to confuse the
issue. During the sixteenth century both the vihuela
and the lute shared a common tuning (meaning,
precisely, the disposition of the intervals by which
the courses were tuned), namely 4th-4th-major
3rd-4th-4th. This can be interpreted as G-C-F-A-D-G,
or A-D-G-B-E-A, or E-A-D-F#-B-E, or whatever
theoretical tuning you might wish to assume. In actual
practice, the real tuning (pitch) was determined by
the characteristics of the instrument and its strings;
instructions such as: tune your first string as high
as it can withstand it are fairly common. 

The 16th-century guitar, on the other hand, had two
tunings: a los viejos (in the old style), with the
intervals 5th-major 3rd-4th, and a los nuevos (in
the new style), with the intervals 4th-major 3rd-4th.
One possible interpretation of this tuning could be
D-G-B-E. The guitar (i.e modern guitar) tuning came
into being with the invention of the five course
guitar, whose nominal tuning was A-D-G-B-E, to which
it was later added a sixth course/string, thus
completing the tuning used nowadays for the modern
guitar.

With best wishes,
Antonio

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Re: vihuela vs guitar

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Vance,

You are right to be puzzled; the vihuela is one of the
most polemic and puzzling instruments from the
Renaissance. All I can provide is my own opinion,
based on the available facts being fully aware that
other scholars might differ in certain aspects.

A rough definition of the vihuela could run in these
terms: a guitar-shaped (a polemic description, I'm
aware, but also a practical one) instrument used in
15th- and 16th century Spain and areas of Spanish
influence, strung with 5 or 6 courses of strings,
played by plucking with the fingers (in the same
fashion as the lute), and fulfilling similar functions
as the lute elsewhere in Europe (the lute was also
played in Spain, but that is a diferent story).

From what we know we cannot be more specific than
that; iconographic sources show a variety of shapes,
so this aspect cannot help us to narrow the
definition.

The guitar, on the other hand, had a similar shape, at
least from the middle of the century onwards
(guitarra meant a small lute-shaped instrument -
gittern - during the middle ages, 15th century and
probably during the early part of the 16th); its
distinguishing feature is that it was strung with four
courses. According to sources from the late 16th and
17th century this was the instrument that served
Vicente Espinel as the base for the creation of the
five-course baroque guitar (guitarra española) with
the addition of a fifth course. This probably happened
in the late 1570s.

I have mentioned several times an article that gives
fuller details for considering this as the taxonomy of
vihuela and guitar: 


The Vihuela and the Guitar in Sixteenth-century
Spain: a critical appraisal of some of the existing
evidence, The Lute, Vol. XXX, 1990, pp. 3-24

As to the genuine vihuela issue, we have three: one
the Jacquemart Andrée Museum in Paris, a second in
Quito and a third in the cité de la musique museum
(you may consider the Dias instrument as a five-course
vihuela, which would be a fourth, I prefer to consider
it as a five-course guitar). The problem here is not
about their authenticity as vihuelas, but of
determining how adequate they were to play, and what
kind of music could be played on each, if possible.
The Jacquemart-Andrée one was probably an apprentice´s
examination masterpiece, the Quito one, dating from
the early seventeenth century was used (there is
evidence) to accompant songs and it was probably
played by strumming. The third one, from the cité de
la musique, is the best example we have so far of an
instrument adequate to play the poliphonic music of
the vihuela books.


With best wishes,
Antonio



 --- Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: 
 Dear List:
 
 I have been following this string on the
 Vihuela/Guitar and have become
 puzzled.  Does anyone really know for sure what a
 Vihuela is.  It seems to
 me that one man's Vihuela is another's
 (insert preference here).
 From what I have been reading it seems that all we
 really have to go on is
 one academic's opinion as opposed to another
 academic's opinion, not
 pointing fingers at anyone in case someone thinks
 that I am. There seems to
 be no real clear choice or definition.  Am I wrong
 in assuming that there is
 no real Genuine Vihuela still in existence?  I
 keep hearing this credible
 source sighted and quoted and that credible source
 sighted and quoted, both
 disagree with each other.  When it comes down to
 arguments about the number
 of courses it seems the argument is desperate and
 perhaps rhetorical,
 understanding there is no correct answer attainable
 with the information we
 now have.
 
 
 VW
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:07 PM
 Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
 
 
 
   Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
   instrument a five-course
 viguela/vihuela/biguela
   (and
   there are further variations on the spelling),
 and
   makes it as a five course instrument and we
 can
   all
   get on with our lives; Roman as well.
   Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to
   ORDINARIA. Any number of courses
   he sees fit, as he is a practitioner rather
 than a
   methodologist.
   RT
 
   Go ahead, be practical and create your own
 categories,
   as long as you don´t pretend they are based on
   historical fact there is no objection.
   AC
  Why? Mainstream scholars of history do it all the
 time, with relative
  impunity.
  RT
 
  __
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  http://polyhymnion.org/swv
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias

[Antonio Corona]

 --- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribió: 
 whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made
 instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable.
 


So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he does
not claim he is following historical criteria for
designing and making it. That put the discussion in a
totally different perspective.

Regards,
Antonio

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Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias

[Antonio Corona]

 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: 
  We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm
  afraid.
  
  
  If such is the case please do tell us what are the
  lute's equivalents of vihuela and guitar.
 A succulent 11/13-course vs. mealy 8-course mandora.



If the comparison is apposite and germane to the
discussion, now please tell us about the similarities
regarding this vihuela and guitar case. Mainly the
fact that, while coexisting, were regarded as separate
instruments in their own time. And about specific
instances where their identity is confused. A further
word about the approach to reconstructing a succulent
11/13 course lute based on a historical mealy 8-course
mandora would not be amiss.




 
 
 
  Apples and
  pears still, i'm afraid, and still a deficient
  methodological aproach. A subjective perception
 does
  not warrant considering it as a valid argument.
 And you could claim objectivity for yourself?
 RT

I don't pretend to claim it, as all refection is
influenced by certain subjective criteria. But I can
claim to try and construct my own conclusions from
known evidence and historical facts, and can produce
the evidence to show how I arrived at those
conclusions. And I still maintain that the comparison
you propose is one of apples and pears and therefore
not germane to the discussion.




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