[LUTE] Re: abc tab
For what instrument and purpose, exactly? Is 10 the maximum number of courses? Thx, E.C. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month
Do it again and this time throw in a few more. Sounded damn good to me. Better yet- EDIT some bloopers in! Wouldn't that be what's called reverse engineering? I forgot to say, I threw in a few bum notes just to keep everybody happy Martin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
My wife just got me two new shirts, new socks, a wool vest and hat for the recent birthday I just suffered. And a bottle of 2nd best Oban. So while losing out on the better/younger aspect of playing, my looks and wardrobe are now second to none. For a while. Dan- older, worser, but bravely continuing to play himself into a corner- with more splats, twangs, squeaks dribbles than Jackson Pollock. As the famous jazz guitarist, Barney Kessell, said, The first thing you learn in music is that somebody will always come along who plays better than you do, is younger than you, dresses better than you do, and is better looking. Gary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
An avant-garde ex-rock guitarist I work with told me just two days ago that he would rather give a mediocre live performance than put out a great CD. (And I happen to own a fine CD that he put out a few years ago.) Dan Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] OT: Guitar technique
A question for the players of standard modern classical guitar on this list (I am on no other)- I have not played classical guitar (nor owned one) since 1975, so don't even know what e-list, forum or whatever to consult. Can any of you tell me if there are editions of the collected guitar works of Villa-Lobos that give detailed, explicit L.H. fingerings beyond the few hints that Villa-Lobos himself provided? Specifically, some of the Etudes have passages that are ambiguous to me (Etude #2 especially), and it's been a hell of a long time since I played this stuff. Some of them I never attempted. I started playing the Etude #1 by Heitor Villa-Lobos about six weeks ago for extra practice in thumb-under technique on my new 8 course lute. (One can run the right hand pattern with any chord, chord progression, or just open strings for practice, of course). I Have been captivated completely by this exotic (to me) Brazilian classical/pop Jungle music- it's very nice vacation from all the usual repertoires, and so much accessible on the familiar instrument. Thanks for any help- Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique
My thanks to all who have responded so quickly helpfully. Looks like I will be in touch with the Villa-Lobos Museum very soon. Dan http://www.villalobos.ca/node/1217 and http://www.stanleyyates.com/articles/hvl/hvl.html will surely be of interest to you. Concerning the preludes and the suite, there are new editions based on all the sources by Zigante. The 1928 manuscript for the 12 Studies is available from the Villa-Lobos Museum. The 1928 version is heavily fingered by VL and has many details and some sections that are missing from the later Eschig version. ( For example Etude 10 has a couple of extra minutes of entirely new music not fund in the Eschig) Eschig plans to publish a new critical edition based on the manuscript but it has been a long time comin' It has already done so with the preludes and the suite populaire (which BTW has a newly found movement) Many guitarists are now playing from the 1928 version and the manuscripts are circulating Hi Dan The HVL collected edition corrects the obvious note mistakes, but leaves the ambiguous (at best) harmonics notation and the original fingering - which is sparse, to say the least, and often wrong. Best Regards,Joseph Mayes Subject: [LUTE] OT: Guitar technique A question for the players of standard modern classical guitar on this list (I am on no other)- I have not played classical guitar (nor owned one) since 1975, so don't even know what e-list, forum or whatever to consult. Can any of you tell me if there are editions of the collected guitar works of Villa-Lobos that give detailed, explicit L.H. fingerings beyond the few hints that Villa-Lobos himself provided? Specifically, some of the Etudes have passages that are ambiguous to me (Etude #2 especially), and it's been a hell of a long time since I played this stuff. Some of them I never attempted. I started playing the Etude #1 by Heitor Villa-Lobos about six weeks ago for extra practice in thumb-under technique on my new 8 course lute. (One can run the right hand pattern with any chord, chord progression, or just open strings for practice, of course). I Have been captivated completely by this exotic (to me) Brazilian classical/pop Jungle music- it's very nice vacation from all the usual repertoires, and so much accessible on the familiar instrument. Thanks for any help- Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Orlando Gibbons
Yes- Earl of Salisbury's Pavan- which I think is also sometimes attributed to Byrd. (Or Byrd wrote one of his own by that name?). And dt mentions the Italian ground- which I also used to play off the keyboard score some years ago; as I remember it fits on the lute perfectly. A 9 or 10 course lute; or any archthing- anything with a low CC makes a very satisfying vehicle for this piece. For some other very good (with extant original intabs) check out Peter Philips, 1589 Pavan, (Wickhambrook has my favorite version) and the Chromatica Pavana and Galliard are outstanding. English lute Society has an edition of Philip's lute versions. Dan Do you possibly remember which those transcriptions were Daniel? G. He wrote keyboard solos (Fitzwilliam Virginal book no doubt others); but chiefly known for vocal consort stuff. Do you mean actual lute solos? I've only seen a couple of guitar transcriptions from the 20th century- any old lute intabs (such as were done with a few of Byrd's keyboard pieces) would be of great interest to me; never heard of a single one, though. Dan Dear list Does anyone know of any SOLO pieces by OG in the known canon? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Orlando Gibbons
He wrote keyboard solos (Fitzwilliam Virginal book no doubt others); but chiefly known for vocal consort stuff. Do you mean actual lute solos? I've only seen a couple of guitar transcriptions from the 20th century- any old lute intabs (such as were done with a few of Byrd's keyboard pieces) would be of great interest to me; never heard of a single one, though. Dan Dear list Does anyone know of any SOLO pieces by OG in the known canon? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
Me three- but lute 'n voice also works for me because of the live-in soprano who always seems to be in my life. One of her favorite songs by these composers as well... For me - solo lute (If you'd ever heard me sing, you wouldn't have to ask) Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Metronome
And a dozen iPhones = 1 gross of metronomes. There is a composition by Gyorgi Ligeti, Symphonique for 100 metronomes - an experimental work, literally what it says on the box. There are also a dozen very good metronomes for iPhone in the free to $3 range. dt -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Nylgut?
And another Big (String) Spender (I just dropped a $$$ wad on Dan Larson for long overdue strings for my vihuela archlute) welcomes this news. I had heard- never tried it out- that the old dead-bone-white nylgut could be dyed by Rit dye, of all things. Don't know if it would affect the structure, and who has time for this. Plus, I had already come to really dislike nylgut on 1st 2nd courses for musical reasons that have already been aired a number of times on this list, but it would be great if the strength/flexibility problems Mimmo has addressed reduce or eliminate those problems. Has anyone in the USA contacted Curtis Daily about availability and price yet? If I go first, I will post the results. Diapason lengths would be a very interesting welcome addition to the synthetic gene pool. Dan Dear Anthony and All, This is welcome news. Just a comment on the rough surface of the old nylgut: Gut is not necessarily rough under the finger. In fact the Sofracob (no more - sigh!) and Kuerschner gut strings I have been using are very smooth and quiet. So I would be happy to think that the new Nylgut is smoother than the old (though it is possible to hand polish the old Nylgut a little to make it smoother). As for the stretchiness, I would welcome less stretchiness for the thinnest strings, more stretchiness for the thicker strings. I also note that historical gut strings may have been even stretchier than the old Nylgut (Thomas Mace says they stretch an inch or two in the winding up - no gut treble I've ever had has stretched this much). Bring on the new strings! I never liked the white colour, either. Best to All, Martin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Metronome
One of my lute students recommends the Dr Beat metronome. They have three models. http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/DB-60/index.html Neat - I love it! Ned On Sep 18, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Check this out. http://www.rhythmsource.com/demo/ -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Metronome
Check this out. http://www.rhythmsource.com/demo/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler's Lamora, Benedictus, La Bernadina Unnecessarie Zen
I have another take on this. Study slowly and precisely. Streamlining the motion of both hands. In other words, know what the fingers do, get rid of superfluous movements and work on muscle memory. Slowly, don't speed up. Don't fall into the trap of studying your mistakes. Chop the runs into groups of 4 notes (or whatever is appropriate) and think of each group of four notes as a unit. Study the unit. String the units together. The speed up. This can go remarkably fast, the speeding up that is. I think it has to do, my theory anyway, with how fast we can think. Speeding up the metronome, but remainign to think about every note individually, will have an upper limit in thinking, an upper limit in control. When thinking of four notes as one unit, we can suddenly think, or control, the music at quadruple speed. David ...it is most necessarie to handle the lute often, yet never but when thy genius favours thee, that is, when thou feelest thyself inclyned to musicke: For there is a certaine natural disposition, for learning the arts naturally infused into us, and shewing in us rather at one time than another, which if one will provoke by immoderate labor, he shall fight against Nature. Therefore when thou shalt finde thy selfe aptlie disposed, and hast time and opportunitie, spare no paynes, yet keepe this course. Chuse one lesson thy selfe according to thy capacitie, which give not over by looking over others, or straggling from one to another, till thou have got it reasonably perfect, and doe not onely beginne it by going through it to the end at first sight, but EXAMINE EACH PART OF IT DILIGENTLY, AND STAY UPON ANY ONE POINT (THOUGH THOU PLAY IT OVER A THOUSAND TIMES) until thou get it in some sort. The like you shall doe in all parts of the said song, till you shall finde your selfe prettily seene in it. ..I dare promise you faithfully and without deceit, that nothing is more fit to second this businesse than patience in the beginning: for nothing can be gotten in an instant, and you must not thinke to play your lessons presently (perfectly?) at first sight, for that is impossible. Wherefore take no other care but onely to strike all the Griffes (chords?) and Notes and notes that are in the middle betwixt them well and plainely, though slowly: for within a while, whether you will or no, you will get a habit of swiftness. Neither can you get that cleere expressing of Notes, unlesse you doe use your selfe to that in the beginning; which cleane delivery every man that favours Musicke, doth farre preferre before all the swiftness and unreasonable noyse that can be. Take this for a farewell: that this divine Art, which at this time is by so great men followed, ought to be used by thee with that great gracefulnesse which is fit for learned men to use, and with a kinde of majestie: yea, so that thou have any skill in it be not ashamed at the request of honest friends to shew thy cunning: but if thou chancest to get an habit of perfection, prophane not the Goddesse, with making thy selfe cheape for a sleight gaine. Dr. J.B. Besardo, Varietie of Lute Lessons 1610 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Used lute pricing
An appeal to the collective wisdom- Is there anyone on the list who could suggest any ballpark parameters for pricing a Herb Hendrickson lute from the mid 1970's? This is an 8 course, largish (63.4 mm SL) tenor lute, immaculate condition, finely made- but with a string clearance of only 4 mm between the strings and the sound board in the plucking areas from the rose going back towards the bridge; this problem would have to be addressed. One of my new students (he has just joined the list) needs a lute, and this one is available. Any suggestions or guidance deeply appreciated. Used lute pricing in general seems to be a wild and crazy matter; going over the for sale list is an exercise in futility trying to establish baseline parameters. Maybe there are none. Thanks all- Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Aquila DE strings.
And another question for the collective- Has anyone tried the Aquila type DE copper overspun lute strings? They are supposed to be closer in sound to the loaded gut basses than the regular type D, but it seems that I cannot get them in the USA- would have to negotiate directly with Mimmo, at Aquila's home base. Any critiques of these strings, and other sources for them, would be appreciated- I want to try them on my small archlute, currently in Type D from 6th to 14 courses. Not bad, but I prefer gutsier things. Once again, thanks to all. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A Draft Idea
Just recently I tuned up at the dress-rehearsal at noon, and I didn't have to tune 7hrs later for the actual concert. Long live carbon. RT Hear hear, here! I just had a gig that would have been lute tuning hell (St. Mark's Lutheran, San Francisco) if my archlute had been dressed in gut for the occasion. Worst type gig for solo playing; individual pieces played singly at approx. 10 - 15 minute intervals (no warm-up pieces continuity) to add color/variety to an acappella motet concert. No place/time to tune or warm up before hand either; just bang jump up, and I'm on. Between my solos, the lute rested on two chairs directly in front of an air conditioning outlet only partially blocked. I did not have to touch a single peg. This is the instrument that in a previous thread I described as having nylon, carbon, and copper overspuns; and still sounds gorgeous. Another victory for Carbons in Combat was a concert a few years ago where Jacob Lindberg played continuo on a carbonated theorbo; the two gambists could barely get their viols in tune in that drafty venue; much less keep them tuned for more than 8 measures at a time. Jacob sat cool as a cucumber, patiently waiting for them as often as necessary. His pegs also could have been mere decoration as far as his need to adjust anything on this occasion. Rather than flammables indoor weather balloons, a few pin feathers filched from the down comforter or pillow and attached to the end of your furthest pegbox will always show you which way the wind is blowing. And a small compass inlaid on the back of the neck at about the 8th fret should complete the set-up. A side benefit- you will not stay lost in even the largest cathedral. Is a combo tuner with GPS not far behind? Dan PS- we will be doing one more performance of this program: 3:30 p.m. Saturday June 12, St. Mark's Episcopal Church, 2300 Bancroft Way, Berkeley Ca. Mostly Motets in Concert - including works by Dufay, Josquin, Tallis, Byrd, Victoria, Marco dall'Aquila, Fuenllana, Palestrina, Francesco da Milano, Durufle among others. I played a solo recital yesterday in a rather drafty medieval church in Champagne on a lute with loaded gut basses. Tuning was difficult but manageable, but nevertheless my experience got me wondering if anyone out there may have any advice with regards to how one may discern where the optimal performance place is with regards to drafts, i.e., how does one check for drafts in a concert space? Any advice would be most welcome! As ever, Benjamin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Synthetic strings sounding like a bad guitar? ;-)
Arto- Some instruments can tolerate, and will respond to synthetics better than others; I am particularly lucky with my archlute- nylon 1st 2nd, carbon for 3, 4, and 5; and almost tolerable copper overspun basses. low tension (I follow Toyohiko Satoh's recommendations) and careful touch are particularly important; less leeway for sloppy technique than with good gut. I have ended my 11 year love affair with nylgut. Ed Martin and dt are right, they are Satan's strings- two courses of which are still polluting my 6-course. My other instruments are in gut except for the archlute- Every lute player should have a bad guitar for fun games. Mine is a 7 string, steel-string flat top acoustic; purchased on a whim while waiting delivery of my Chambure vihuela from Barber Harris back in 2002. It cost about half the price of the Kingham case for the vihuela. In spite of a 64.5 cm sl I have it right up to G, a=440; average string tension about 10 kg. per string. That's somewhat on the light side for modern steel-string guitars. Plain steel first four, bottom three overspun (7th string at low D)- Thomastik-Infeld. Sounds far, far better than it has any right to sound. ET frets and some unnecessary mother of pearl are the only real drawbacks. It certainly doesn't sound like a lute whether good or bad, maybe it sounds like a bad Orpharion- or a really good one. Dan Some synthetic strings sound better than others. The nylgut to my ear has a lot of out of tune harmonics, so gut to me sounds much better than nylgut. But nylgut is so convenient! High quality nylon and some carbon strings can sound good, but there are a lot of junky synthetics in carbon and nylon as well. Of course, this is personal preference, some ppl like nylgut, and so on. You can't go wrong with good quality gut strings of course, and bad gut strings sound truly dreadful. As a former tuner, I can't tolerate out of tune partials easily, but then again the effect is greater on certain lutes. Many people have no problem with the harmonics--we all hear differently in subtle ways. Sounding like a bad guitar may not be bad--do you want the lute to sound like a good guitar? Lastly, perhaps your recording device cannot handle the very fast moving harmonics of the lute, and you need a faster microphone/preamp combo. dt At 01:03 PM 6/2/2010, you wrote: Dear lutenists, there is a problem - to me at least: - Some time ago a certain person commented one of my accords nouveaux y-tubings by words: it sounds like a bad guitar. I was playing a 10-courser stringed by synthetics. - Since last December I have been playing an 11-courser stringed by gut. In the beginning I had very harsh sound. Perhaps getting better? Not much. Who knows? But REALLY enjoyable touch and feel! - Now the 11-courser is in garage; some bar(-s) is(are) loose. Eagerly waiting to get it back... - The problem: My lutes stringed by synthetic strings sound also to me - especially when recorded! - like a bad guitar. Is it really so, or did I just miss the touch to synthetics? worried, To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] [LUTE]Hi Ed- (was matched continuo instruments)
And what a pleasure for those of us in the San Francisco Bay Area to meet our friend Ed Durbrow in person. He brought with him a fine little 8 course lute (who was the luthier?) that is going to gut; and he has composed two beautiful settings of poems by Shakespeare; I forget where they are from, was one from A Winter's Tale? It was as evocatively chilling as some things from Schubert's Winterreise. It would be wonderful if he could make these available. Ed, thanks for stopping by. Anytime; there are more of us you should meet. Did you sell the truck? Dan I just returned from a trip to the States day before yesterday. I had a lovely evening at the house of Nancy Carlin last Sunday where I could experience her Orpharion first hand and hear Dan Winheld play in person as well as the duo of Howard and Doris. A delightful experience. You can never have enough lute, that is what I say. S.F. area rocks! Err gently sways... whatever the metaphor is for lute-friendly is. Ed Durbrow -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swedish violin/lute picture - ID/date
Just for comparison with the cello strings- a close up of my vihuela, 7th course fundamental D, (a = 409) 1.52 mm. First generation loaded gut from Mimmo Peruffo. 6th course G, one string is a Dan Larson Pistoy, 1.39 mm. (Had to use a gimp for the unison, all that was available when I could no longer tolerate the octave string). Granted, these strings are only a 4th apart, but still look similar in size. http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/danwinheld/?action=viewcurrent=Strings.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yatt2yv -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things
Sun Ra, of course. http://missioncreep.com/mw/sunra.html World - I challenge any musicologist or casual fan to demonstrate a piece of music that didn't originate on our world. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things
Pythagoras would say Music of the spheres? Those would be the fat ladies; it ain't over 'til they sing. Maybe, these days, they shouldn't. On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Since we seem to have drifted a fair distance from string tensions, you've omitted what I find to be the most irritating genre designation: World - I challenge any musicologist or casual fan to demonstrate a piece of music that didn't originate on our world. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tension
Great thread- thanks, guys. These are the two gems that I will try to remember: The result is that certain historical instruments perform a scholarly disappearing act because the terminology has been regularized. There is so much 20th century baroque performance practice (I call it the esperanto early music style) around that is not hip whatsoever. Very cool picture, too. I could use those 'cello strings on my bass viol, and the bow looks a little lighter than my Renaissance bass bow. Dan -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bakfark's fantasias
No worse than Melchior Neusidler. But that's already bad enough. I actually got one of them nailed down about 95%, years ago- must dig it out now, and have another go at it. I don't know about the Leclair, but I found the Bach partitas for violin which I didn't know I had- tried the d-minor chaconne on the Baroque lute straight from the violin notation. It's amazing how much of it practically plays itself. Then, some of it doesn't, quite- at prima vista. On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 10:21 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Anyone who likes Bakfark should also try the Leclair violin solos on lute, Years ago I played a four-part fantasia by Bakfark on stage, with four lutes. I lost my part during every concert ... |-( David Wait a minute, you had four lutes on stage with you- playing each part on a separate lute? Or were there three other lute players? And all you lost was your part? How many concerts did you keep losing the same part in? This sounds very interesting, musically, socially, and psychologically. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lachrimae pavan
PARALLEL UNISONS! -But very nice anyway. Four strings is all you need, with enough talent. Thanks, Val. I commit a non-orthodox and non-hip version of Lachrimae Pavan, using the arrangement by Jamie Holding. Purists, please, don't watch... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo arpeggiation
Hello Martin, I can't address the theorbic implications, but I am very interested to see that first bit, where i does a single, selected rest stroke in order to play the course it comes to rest on following the m stroke is exactly what I've been doing on the d-minor Baroque lute in many places. Not from any instruction, it just felt logical, conserving of motion, and yet another way to get control of the fingers. And stay in touch of location, or continue in a bassward direction when that is what is happening. I believe crossing the i over the m, instead of using a was already commonplace in 17th century French lute playing; specialists can confirm or correct me on this one. Perhaps getting a little OT from your specific theorbo concerns, I think many of us who came to lutes in general from modern guitar have a tendency to overuse the a finger, often to the detriment of style, and sometimes technique as well. Because of an old tendonitis injury I spent several months playing with no use of the a finger at all- even complex Weiss sonatas; it was a revelation how much could be accomplished this way- technically and musically. By the way, this counterintuitive, unnatural (at first) finger crossing is generally more manageable from the thumb out (or up/center, whatever) hand orientation. Dan Hi! Looking through Francesca Torelli's excellent theorbo tutor (published by Ut Orpheus Edizioni), I was a little surprised by two of her recommendations for right hand arpeggiation. She explains (p 23)the technique in which 4 note arpeggios, for example, are played p i m i, with the index finger playing the highest note of the chord last, on the third course. So the first bar of Kapsberger's Toccata Seconda Arpeggiata becomes... --- |- --- |- ---0--- |-0 repeated 4 times ---3--- |--3--- ---3--- |3- ---2--- |---2-- ./. p i m i However, she suggests that once you have played the second note, you should rest the index finger on the third course ready to play the final note of the 4 note pattern. I don't play this way myself (though I can make it work) and wonder if other people do. Also, if there is any mention of this rest stroke technique in the original sources. On p 24, she prints the above mentioned Toccata, with the recommendation that the student should vary the RH fingering patterns so as to ensure that all the notes in each chord are played in ascending order. The trouble with this recommendation is that very often in the piece, the notes on the first and third courses have a melodic function as well as an harmonic one. The pattern in bar 6, for example, is notated as follows; ---2 which could be realised either as---2 or as ---00--- ---3--3- ---3-3-- ./. p i m i -- -2 -- if you follow Torelli's suggestion ---0-- 3- --3-- p m i m Or perhaps-p i i m ? The result is that the melodic move Bb-A is reversed. She admits that This technique may seem complex and difficult in the beginning... ! To my ear, it also alters the piece significantly, in this bar and a number of other places. What do people think? I wonder if anyone can think of passages like this in the Italian theorbo repertory where the arpeggiation is written out in full, thus giving us a hint? Best wishes martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae
but I await word from the experts... And the experts have spoken! When the rubber of canon meets the road of practice, things seem to get a little muddy. DvO I hear the third on the 4th quarter being held into the fifth. and Stewart but the treble moves to b flat (d1)before moving to the E flat major chord in bar 2. - while Tayler maintains that it is still a citeable traffic infraction. My classes in theory and counterpoint were so long ago- We must have gone to different counterpoint classes. ;-) -that I don't know how different they were. When I got to playing the Lachrimae, I didn't spot the parallel (or not parallel) fifths, but I did know that I preferred the sound of the disputed transition from LoST. I may have forgotten all the rules by then anyway. But it is wonderful to be examining this immortal classic so closely- I haven't played it in a long time, and it really is amazing. I will be tracking down the augmented second next- thanks for the tip. Dan Dear Dan, I can't see any parallel fifths. The passage in outline (treble and bass only) is as follows: |\ |\ |\ |\ | | |\ | |\ | |. |\ | | | __a___d_d__c__a __d__b___a|__e_ __| __| __|__d___c_ __a___| It is true that the treble is a fifth above the bass (a2 above a6) half way through the first bar, and is also a fifth above the bass (d1 above d5) at the start of the second bar, but the treble moves to b flat (d1) before moving to the E flat major chord in bar 2. That's not parallel fifths. This would be parallel fifths: |\ |\ | |\ | | |\ | |\ | |. |\ | | | __a__d__d__c__a __d__b___a|__e_ __| __| __|__d___c_ __a___| but that isn't what Dowland wrote. If you really want to see Dowland break the rules in Lachrimae, look at the inner parts of the LOST setting, and you'll spot an augmented second, acceptable now, but not at the time of Dowland. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach for two
And the lautenverse owes you another hearty Thank you - I have been considering how to get some of my students into a graceful way to start reading pitch notation; you know, music. This is good. Dan Every Tuesday I have the pleasure of playing through the two-part inventions of Bach with a pupil on a 6-course vihuela. Over the months I have arranged all 15 of the inventions to fit on two 6-course instruments in g'. I had to transpose, make changes in octaves, and think of which clefs to use, as, apart from the joy of playing this great music, the arrangements were also meant as reading exercises in treble tenor and bass clefs. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae
First part of the answer: I'm not Nigel North ;-) Nigel is playing thumb out, which does enable the middle-index finger runs at high speed a bit easier. I can play middle index runs fairly well thumb in, but not as fast, easily- or naturally- as thumb out. The eternal conundrum of which way to tune/string the 7th course. A good reason- if one cannot afford to have two identical 7 course lutes for both stringings- to have an 8 course lute, however momentarily transitional it may have been in its own day. Reversing the F and D for the reachability necessary for the really difficult chromatic notes on the low D makes it possible to call this configuration, Not an eight-course lute; It is a double-seven. There are, in fact, plenty of pieces requiring a fingered, 3rd fret A-flat on a 7th in F, (one of the reasons- I read somewhere- for the 7th was to make some of those notes accessible as much for the convenience of not retuning the 6th to F) but these are easier to negotiate on an 8th course, fingering over the 7th, than the other way around- although just such examples do exist in the literature. Additionally, there are some pieces- I'm thinking Laurencini- in which an open F is the only way to get that note, the key and/or left hand position making a fingered low F impossible. Dan Thank you for that answer, David. Thinking about what you said, I see now that I was not thinking clearly about how one tunes a 10-course lute. I was thinking that one could tune the 7th course as D, and then just add the bass tunings for courses 8, 9, and 10 however they're commonly tuned. In such an instance, one would just ignore the courses 8, 9, and 10. But I see that - by having to find the notes assigned to the 7th course on different lower bass courses - a great complication is added! I really should have thought of this, since I do tune the 7th course of my 8 course instrument to F, with the 8th course being D. I have been considering reversing them, and tuning the 7th to D, and the 8th to F. But it's easier, I'm sure, to reach down and strike the bottom course, than it is to reach down and distinguish the 7th from the 8th course. I'm rather looking forward to the arrival of the 7 course instrument I have on order! Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae
Ron- Thank you again for another great gift to the lute list community! Dan Hello Graham: You'll find the version you seek posted on our website in pdf form. http://editions.mignarda.com/downloads.html The divisions probably are by Dowland - I don't especially care whose version it is but I like the triplets at the end. Best wishes, Ron Andrico -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae
somehow I have a blind spot: I still dont see the fifths!). I think going from the last chord in the first measure (low open G, still providing bass note from 3rd beat with open 2nd course d) -moving to first chord of 2nd measure, E-flat b-flat e chord. G-d to E-flat-b-flat are parallel fifths. Never quite liked the sound of it myself, but always played it anyway being the incurious blockhead I am; who was I to correct an original text? But of course it's corrected in the LoST and in the Dd.2.11. Much nicer sounding that way. By the way, I think I found an error in Ron's that I just downloaded- 9th measure- first measure of repeat, last chord- b, 4th fret 1st course against the fingered b on 2nd fret 3rd- should be g on the fourth course or possibly fingered e on 2nd to match first strain- but that sounds empty. Playing both g and e with the high b makes a very nice chord- but the two b's sound bad to me. I could postulate improper parallel octaves from the 3rd course c on third beat with first course c on fourth beat, and they both move down to the b's- but I await word from the experts... Dan I was going to record 'Last Will and Testament' by Holborne for our latest Death and Life CD. It was a live recording, I prepared really well, lived with the piece for weeks, loved it, played it in several concerts before the big day. But failed. It really is a 7-course piece, and on the 10-course I used it was beyond me. So, after the first day day, we had two recorded concerts from which we choose the best takes, I decided to change plan. Next day I played Lachrimae and that made it to the CD. I love the LoST versions. David - played Solus cum Sola in concert last week. Funny piece, that. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Louisiana and the Sun King, Louis XIV
And another fascinating character was Joseph de Bologne, Carribean/Afro-French musician and martial artist, but thoroughly Euorocentric, culturally. A hell of a story, though. Joseph de Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, was one of the most remarkable figures of the 18th century. Incredibly, this son of a slave rose to the top of French society through his mastery of fencing and his genius for classical music. http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Page1.html#27 On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:16:55 -0500, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: Robert Johnson seems to have lived mostly in the Mississippi Delta area - one of the greatest exponents of 'delta blues'. The french settled in Louisiana - the next state over, but didn't seem to have populated this area of mississippi at that time. African folk music, brought over by the slaves, is widely thought to be a major influence in delta blues, but I've never heard that french music influenced them. The french influence is, however, still very much alive in cajun folk traditions of Louisiana. Well, to me the huge time span and the huge area of French influence was news to me, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Louisiana#French_exploratio n_and_colonization_.281528.E2.80.931756.29 which says: The following present day states were part of the then vast tract of Louisiana: Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan[citation needed], Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, and South Dakota. Isn't it strange/interesting/cute/important that African and European music had to go to America to meet and mix!? -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Getting very interesting- I now remember (it was so long ago) when I got my first lute from the builder (Hugh Gough, NYC, 1973 approx.) he instructed me in the double fret method, not super thin but certainly thinner than today's typical singles- he also advised wetting them for a minute in warm water to make them more flexible, and then they additionally tighten a bit upon drying. Of course, that would be unnecessary if the gut was already naturally flexible. The aesthetics of sound is interesting- I posted a thought about that, (forgot to copy it to the list) relating it to the Capirola reference to low action set deliberately for a little buzz. Different sound world back then- and of course, Ron Andrico's points on tempo may be very well taken; I know in my own case there has often been far too much hurry, sometimes literally the pace of life- I have 20 minutes to play/practice, then run off to work- staying on top of too many instruments and styles in one lifetime also adds confusion and hurry. And when do my wife and I ever go out to dance pavans, galliards, voltas? Weiss never worried about maintaining his Renaissance lutes techniques, Francesco never had to keep up his 11 course lute, and his archlute, and also get the Volvo to the mechanic by 7:30 Tuesday morning, Dan Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: New frets
On the other hand, they were also not blissfully sitting still all the time- a contemporary account of the great Pietro Bono describes his playing as ...Storming from the very bottom to the top of the lute's range... and other words suggestive of the technical level of a Joe Pass or Django Rheinhardt, at least in the improvised intabs of popular standards. Similar descriptions of other famous players of those times are extant- can't recall at the moment. they could certainly move when they wanted to, and undoubtedly better than us. Dan There are many aspects of the way we approach the instrument and the music today that I'm sure are entirely inauthentic. For instance, playing a dance piece with variations in a large concert hall with polite people sitting quietly, and with such blinding un-danceable speed that polyphony and phrasing are entirely obscured. What possibly might have been the hurry? Call of nature? Ron Andrico -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Louisiana and the Sun King, Louis XIV
A corruption of the original Acadian What is truly amazing is the matched set of baroque accordians which presumably were the basis for the Cajun accordion, the originals now at Tulane. d And let us not overlook the precursors of the baroque accordian, the renaissance harmonica and concertina... T -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
David Van Edwards has of course nailed the lute perfectly- there is a picture of one being played about 1/3 way down on this page (Brief history of the lute, part 3) from his website, between the Des Moulins 11 course and the better known double headed Dutch lute. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history3.htm The lute of course is easy, it's an early type of extended bass as also shown in several Molenaer paintings and in the comic drawing of a country musician [enclosed] and one exists in Copenhagen [No. 93] converted from a Sixtus Rauwolf lute with the handwritten label SIXTVS RAVWOLF // AVGVSTANVS 1598 [1599?]. manu propr suggesting that he himself, not an apprentice made it. The extension is unlikely to be original but not impossible. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
It's down at the bottom, next to what appears to be a plate on edge; dangerously close to the parsnips. It appears that the bell is of a different wood than the body; and on the whole it somewhat resembles an extraordinary oboe played extraordinarily well by Gonzalo X. Ruiz a few weeks ago- perhaps explaining David's interest :) -he was part of the fine continuo support at one of his Voices of Music concert. And is that an early manifestation of a nice French Rose between the two pegboxes- I think only two senses are getting the most play here. When's dinner? I think the bird has seen the handwriting on the wall (so to speak) and is making good its escape before becoming part of the stew. David, I must be blind; where is the oboe? I find the oboe the most interesting :) dt At 10:59 PM 2/14/2010, you wrote: Count 'em again, folks- I'm counting 7 courses on the main pegbox. Treble rider, and 12 more pegs. I've got three courses- 6 pegs on the extension, the bottom one looks like a darker wood replacement (ebony?) -So we have a 10 course. There is a Dutch picture of a young man playing one of these double pegbox lutes, I will hunt the online iconography sources and get back to you all. It appears that a stuffed bird is trying to make an escape. No idea about that other thing, sausage/pepper grinder powder horn? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
Maybe it's both (Emergency at the oboe players house- Honey, could you stop practicing for a minute and come grind this garlic?) Oboe? I'd think pestle mortar :) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
Damn it, I want to see Gonzalo's oboe again. The last time we had parsnips they were much too tough, and the finger holes didn't help a bit. I think David was kidding about the oboe (hence the :) sign). The objects Dan describes do not resemble any oboe da caccia I've seen. The goldish-colored oboe part looks like a pestle, and the similarly-colored round object is more than likely the mortar or similar dish. It can't be the bell of a wind instrument (the oboe da caccia is so named because it has a flaring bell resembling a horn, or corno da caccia), because it has a bottom, which would of course stop the air flow completely and cause the oboist to explode. In any event, Linard apparently died around 1645, before the Hotteterres developed the oboe, and probably 50 or 60 years before the oboe da caccia. David may have been noticing that the parsnip at the lower right edge of the table appears to have finger holes like a wind instrument. But of course the parsnip was a single-reed instrument. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
No reason parsnips and woodwinds can't get along: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfYt7vRHuY -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
Maybe one more hour on simmer, and a few shakes from the cyanide jar Nancy spotted. Bon Apetit! :( Funny- I do have a dentist appointment in one hour! -Dan I don't think an oboe da caccia would be any easier on your teeth, but I suppose it would depend on how you cook it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Beneficial ..Absolutely! Often? -Ouch! I should have fewer instruments, or more free time. But the worse they get, the more you appreciate it when you finally do change those funky, ratty old frets. It really does get easier to change frets the more often you do them. When is an interesting dilemma- your mileage depends on how hard and often you drive, sweaty fingers make this more interesting for some people. Make sure that fret gut goes under ALL the strings before you tighten tie them. Dan Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on).Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
Count 'em again, folks- I'm counting 7 courses on the main pegbox. Treble rider, and 12 more pegs. I've got three courses- 6 pegs on the extension, the bottom one looks like a darker wood replacement (ebony?) -So we have a 10 course. There is a Dutch picture of a young man playing one of these double pegbox lutes, I will hunt the online iconography sources and get back to you all. It appears that a stuffed bird is trying to make an escape. No idea about that other thing, sausage/pepper grinder powder horn? Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Emotion, introvert vs. extrovert playing
Another possibility- performers, (like their listeners) are human; therefore fallible- they are not going to bat everything out of the park every time up to bat- and listeners are also human (therefore fallible) and will have different subjective responses. For that matter, the recording process can make or break a recording. I find this to be true all the time, listening to CDs all day long at my job. One pianist does all the Schubert sonatas exquisitely- except for the last one! I have to go to some one else for the 560 in B flat. One of the finest Baroque violinists in the world blows the Bach partitas- but maybe just for me. I never understood the Bartok string quartets until I heard the Vegh Quartet's recording- but that may be my fault, not that of the other fine interpreters of these difficult works. Surely there must be other recordings of the Tombeau- sometimes a range of viewpoints is necessary- especially if one standard has locked itself into your brain after thirty years. Do you play? Digging into it yourself, whatever your playing level, will give you a ton of information about the work. Generally, I too find Barto's playing to be full of passion and verve- but I haven't heard him on that particular piece. I am still waiting for a CD copy of Hoppy doing it on the Widhalm, and will be very interested after reading your post (welcome back, incidentally) to hear this work. Dan 30 years of listening! Hah! I certainly would like to. But implicitely my point was that too many lute recordings are on the brink of being too bland for my humble taste. Now even Robert Barto falls prey to this. This I did not expect. g On 10.02.2010, at 00:12, howard posner wrote: On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Gernot Hilger wrote: My reference interpretation, a beloved compagnion for more than thirty years is Hoppy's 1978 rendition on the 1755 Widhalm lute, Reflexe edition, not the later recording on his van Lennep lute. I find this particular piece overflowing with emotion, ardently played, very moving. It just hits and touches me. The music is so deep and calm and nevertheless arousing. What a masterpiece. And an example of what can be done on the lute. Upon further reflection, I find that Robert does in fact express himself, but only on a smaller scale. More civilised, perhaps. Which I find a pity. Why is it that the emotional range of many lute recordings is so small? Or compressed? It can be done otherwise. Or is it just a matter of my ears being clogged? They may very well be clogged. If you've been married to one performance for 30 years, it's only natural to think of it as THE performance, and think of every other performance as if it were an attempt to duplicate it; therefore any other performance can hardly differ from it without being inferior. We all tend to judge music- making by some model we've internalized, and recordings are very powerful internalizers. You may be right about emotional scale, but I think you should be scientific about this: put away the Smith Reflexe recording, spend 30 years listening to Barto's, and then get back to us. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: Flying with a lute - CaseXtreme Flight Case
Bill, Yes - that is the company. Thanks so much re-posting it; but I did indeed see a different video, one specifically for electric guitars. This is far more relevant, and the drop distance more realistic than the four or five floor drop for the solid body electric so I'm still very impressed. My toy baby archlute badly needs one of these, all I've got for it now is a general purpose gig bag that it has to share with the viola da gamba. Dan Hello All, I believe I'm the one that Dan refers to below about the link to the guitar case being thrown off a building and the guitar (actually an acoustic, non-solid body guitar) surviving intact. Below is my original post from last August. The name of the company is CaseXtreme and the video may be seen at http://www.casextreme.com/newest_video.html. I believe prices have risen since my original post, but the company now makes a special edition case in heat reflective white which would be better than the standard black. Again, I hope this information is helpful. Bill Eisele -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flying with a lute
Thank you, Nancy. Excellent, relevant recent information. Important that it is post Christmas. Seems to be a don't ask, don't tell Least said, soonest mended etc. type of modus operandi. That's how it worked with my old, small vihuela in about 2005 going to the Amherst event from S.F. Bay area also. For a Cleveland adventure I was afraid to risk being turned away at the gate with no alternatives (as Ned is afraid of) with the 13 course Baroque lute so I reinforced the old case with 4 more sturdy latches- but no extra padding measures except for lots of socks and underwear inside the case around the neck and pegbox, and some music pages between the strings and the soundboard. Totally detuned, of course. It came and went both directions unscathed, I think by sheer good luck. United hadn't yet learned how to break guitars, I guess. Hasn't someone this list given a link to a promo for a new guitar case that was thrown off a building, and the (but solid body) guitar survived intact? Still an accomplishment, I would like to see that ad again- couldn't google it up. Dan All of this depends on what you can afford, and for those of us in the US fitting into all the airline regulations and price cuts. I flew from the San Francisco area to New York City with my orpharion, a few weeks ago and because I was using my United frequent flyer miles for part of the flight, I was on 3 flights both going and coming = 6 planes. Plus it was Winter weather, so I had some delays and plane changes. All the airlines are charging for checked bags and have weight limits. They do not charge for carry-ons. On the way out I was on United and they have a lot of new rules - they will no longer do gate checks for anything except wheel chairs and strollers. I had the most problem with a flight from Denver to Chicago, where there was a rule book Johnny at the gate. I ended up asking her about the YouTube videos with the Taylor guitar and she seemed to think they were entertaining but rules are rules. She tagged my orpharion for a gate check, but there was nobody to take it when I got to the gate, so I just walked onto the plane. The flight attendant was happy to put it in the first class coat closet. My theory is that if you start asking these people if you can carry an instrument on, they will say no because that is what they have been told to do. It's also better if you book the flight early, so you get on the plane before all the overheads are full. The instruments are odd shaped and if the bin is full of suitcases they are not going to move them so your case will fit. On the way back from NYC I was on American and Alaska Airlines, where I saw quite a few guitar and bass cases, plus something like a French horn, in the waiting area. There were no questions about any of these instruments going on the planes, and no announcements about no instruments as carry-ons. So it might be well to avoid United until they change their policies. Nancy -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Speaking of silk (There is no evidence of such strings in Europe) Nevertheless, I have finally managed to put two of Alexander Rakov's silk strings on a lute- the 1-f and 2-d on my Baroque lute. (I had to wait for the current guts to degrade sufficiently- once the silk was in the house, the gut strings decided to hold onto dear life with a grim tenacity that surprised me.) Very satisfying sound, gutsy of course, but also a little touch of the raspy huskiness one hears in the attack when listening to Biwa or Koto music. A very rhetorical kind of sound, seems to me quite appropriate to Baroque lute. And immediately following the attack, a seamless melodious bloom to the fundamental note, no extraneous noise at all- somewhat rapid decay, but not at all abrupt- a very speaking kind of sound but with pure musicality. Absolutely true strings, in tune right up the entire octave. The octave harmonic matches the fretted 12 fret perfectly. Very slight fuzzing on the 1st course behind the 2nd fret after some three or so hours of play- we will see about the longevity. I am very interested in outfitting at least five courses of the Baroque lute in silk, and maybe my whole vihuela, which is almost ready to shed its gut double first course, and will get to try out Alexander's silk as well. Thank you, so much, Alexander. Dan The Some early records mention strings vibrating for up to 10 seconds after being struck: gut strings vibrate a second or two at most, but silk vibrations can continue for 10 seconds. quote appears to be corrupted in some way, as i was the source. The discussion was of a particular design silk strings, with the roped silk core wound by twisted silk. There is no evidence of such strings in Europe. A second or two - for plain gut basses. alexander r. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tr :Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Hi Chris- This is getting interesting. (Thought we had put this one to bed already, but never mind). Some explaining- Last things first; My arch lute IS a little strange. The pictures from photobucket that I have linked below of course do not give the history or the specs, but at least we can see it. That lute and I have had a strange life together that goes back to 1973 or so. The word strange is completely apropos if you knew the full history, which is far too long for this e-rant. It has been to the Maine woods, Lower East Side ghettos of New York City, a coal mining town for a wedding gig in Eastern Kentucky, active service on the stage of the Carnegie Recital Hall, (June, 1979), any number of LSA events- and more. My first real or HIP instrument, originally built as an 8 course by the late clavichord lute builder Hugh Gough in New York. In the course of time I had it expanded to a 10 course. Finally in California three years ago the old top finally died- and the final ravalement Is in the form of a small archlute. Or a Liuto Attiorbato without octave strings on the basses- a perfect set-up for overspun diapasons. Which brings us to the hardware part of my use of the word strange. Of course I don't know the specs of every archthing still in existence, typical or not, let alone every one that has ever been built, but I've seen enough to form the opinion- rightly or wrongly as the case may be, that for a true archlute to have satisfactory plain gut diapasons the SL should be about 120 cm. (main playing courses typically 67 cm. or thereabouts) at least- and a typical liuto attorbiato the basses will be under 100 cm. with octaves and typical playing SL of about 56 - 58 cm. or thereabouts. Well, here is mine. The main strings are 64.5 cm., but the diapasons are only 97 cm. with no provision for octaves. Pitched at 415, all synthetics. Aquila type D (DE on the way) copper overspun basses. I am 80% happy with the bass string sound, and otherwise I think the instrument sounds fabulous- thanks to the work of our local luthier Mel Wong. I have done some rough pricing of Mimmo's latest loaded basses- over $500 (at least) for 7 diapasons and the 7th 6th course fundamentals. Ouch! I'm sure they would actually work very well, but turns into a very murky, expensive, and dubious path to go down merely for the sake of so-called historically accurate gut basses - foolishly misused. I would rather save the money for loaded gut on my Baroque lute, which does fall far more nicely into known historical specifications. Toyohiko Satoh's archlute that he refer to in a recent LSA newsletter has 100 cm. basses- also w/o octaves- but the rest are only 59.5- permitting him at least a half-tone higher pitch, but he asserts that those proportions still make plain gut diapasons unworkable, so he needs to use non-historical gimped strings by Dan Larson. http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/danwinheld/archlute/?action=viewcurrent=archlute1.jpg http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/danwinheld/archlute/?action=viewcurrent=archlute2.jpg I do get a faint whiff of long distance psychologizing, the implication being that I only put my archlute into synthetic evening wear because: 1. I feel guilty about it not fitting into any category of Historically Kosher archlute and therefore eschew real gut stringing out of shame. 2. I really AM a secret Gut Nazi and did this to sow disinformation, causing confusion amongst the ranks about my evil motives as well as try to convince myself that I am not REALLY a Gut Nazi because I am also confused about my own feelings about being a secret Gut Nazi. Other than that, I actually do find ornaments easier to play on gut strings. I really do. The slimy feel of carbon is a relative term, and I put up with it quite happily on my strange/not strange archlute because nevertheless I STILL can finger it and do all I want on it, and even in synthetics this instrument still sounds fabulous (all that anyone would ever want from an instrument, no?) and I don't really mind having at least one instrument that maintains pitch, and tuning stability, and is cheaper to string with more durable strings. Have I missed anything? Dan --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: I have not read such blanket performance proclamations in this thread. Sure you have. Many of them are almost at the subliminal level. I wish to bring them to the surface. One example: In the very email in which Dan Winheld wanted to show that he was not dogmatic in his stringing choice, he mentions his strange archlute, which is too short for workable gut diapasons. What he really means to say is that that he believes his archlute is too short to produce a tone with enough sustain and pitch definition that he (and, presumably others) will find acceptable in a musical context using modern gut strings at the pitch he desires. There are a
[LUTE] Apology to the Lute List
Howdy folks. I just re-read my last e-rant to the lute list, answering Chris Wilke's last post. It was a silly overreaction to his interesting, but over-analyzed critique of my stringing, motives pertaining thereto, and why I would consider my archlute strange. I really apologize for my overblown rhetoric, and I do appreciate Chris' considerable powers of analysis, discrimination, dissection- reservations notwithstanding in this case. As to the strange bit- I am guilty of deception through decontextualization. ALL my instruments are at least a little strange- some more, some less so. Whatever strings they are wearing, for whatever reasons. Any of you are welcome- especially Chris- to stop by some time and I'll show you. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
(Note that, in addition to his researches into historical strings, he is also one of our leading makers of synthetics!) And thank God for that. I've bought far more type D and Nylgut (and now also have his apparently more gut like type DE copper overspuns on order) for my strange archlute, which is too short for workable gut diapasons, than I have gut from him. I do look forward to the day I can outfit the old Baroque lute in a nice, fashionable set of Loaded Guts, but that won't be for a while. And for the record, I will string my lute with irradiated pasta and dead snakes rather than cease to play because of mere stringing issues. And of course all others are free to do the same; whether or not there is such a thing as free will in the universe, or is it all pre-determined? (lurching into Lute Bar ramblings- single malt Scotch with that stout for me.) Dan Everyone is free to choose a sound that they like, of course, but making blanket performance proclamations (as others in this thread have done) on the basis of admittedly impartial knowledge leads down dangerous paths. Other than that, I agree- let's meet down at the old Lute Bar for drinks. I'll buy the first round. I'll take you up on that. Make mine a stout! Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Seven years is minimum. I have a tin peanut brittle box with old and newish gut strings- used unused- going back to the late 1970's. The Ancient Gutpile- authentic gut strings that the old (and aging) lute players used to use way back in the 20th century. The way to go is to go all the way. Live with it, love it, hate it, despair at it, fall utterly in love with it and vow never to use it again, ever. All at the same time. And not for a day or a month. Seven years would be nice, but at least give yourself a chance. And keep your old strings, you might want to go back. David - been there, done that, still no answers -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
There was a fellow, name of Andres Segovia I believe, followed himself all over the world breaking gut treble strings regularly on a guitar. Finally wound up in the caring hands of Rose and Albert Augustine and a pile of raw nylon from Dupont. Didn't change his repertoire or instrument, and he liked the tone quality of an unbroken string in front of a live audience. On the other hand, Willie Nelson produced an extraordinary gutsy sounding album some years ago; gut strung classical guitar played with a pick. Great sound indeed- kind of like a synthesis of an oud and a Flamenco guitar. And just today at the record (well, CD) store I sold a remastered pre-electric recording from the turn of the previous century of the very late, very great American violinist Maude Powell, playing on a gut e string. Also minimal, controlled vibrato, flawless technique, deeply felt playing. And no such thing as edits. Dan- too beside himself to follow either of you or himself. Of course you can say for sure Francesco, Dowland and Weiss would have used gut living today ??? They would have jump on synth string saying I dreamed my all life about this LOL Val (follows himself too ;-) There's no reason to use the synthetics just because Ronn McFarlane, Paul O'Dette, and Nigel North use them Indeed, and Francesco, Dowland and Weiss used gut. Who would you like to follow? David - follows himself -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Anthony- that's amazing- HIP concerns mattering as lately as the 1920's. I had a customer at the music store yesterday looking for HIP Beethoven; we didn't have anything on hand but at least the Busch Quartet had a sound that seemed closer, but I don't know the details of their equipment. I remember discussing this gut/synthetics issue during a lesson with Terence Stone years ago- we finally agreed that the serious lute player just has to have two of every lute- one in synthetics for gigs and one in gut to keep himself honest. And the octaves- it doesn't seem to matter what the rest of the stringing is, for me the octaves always have to be gut. For the main courses, It's that difference in feel- the slimy texture of carbons in particular, that so influence (for the worse) the performance of ornaments and the nuances of articulation. I still have one lute with Nylgut- referred to as crocodile gut by one of our learned correspondents- (the gut of de Nile?) that seems to be in a sub-class of it's own- android gut. Maybe the most subversive substance of all. Dan Dear Dan I recently heard Stravinsk's Pulcinella and Pergolesi's Stabat Mater directed by Mark Minkowski with the Musiciens du Louvre-Grenoble, and for both pieces of music the bowed instruments were strung in gut, the argument being that still around the 1920s these could have been strung in gut. The brass or the Stravinsky were period instruments (around 1915) and the sound texture was audibly different from modern instruments. The sound was slightly more earthy, but warmer, and the balance between strings and brass was excellent. There was a luminous clarity to the articulation of the piece. I would think some people are more interested in this sound texture and articulation question, and they are willing to sacrifice slight problems of intonation in their effort to achieve the sound quality they want; while others are so obsessed by in tuneness that they find gut difficult, and they are willing to compromise texture . I notice, however, that the majority of gamba players adopt gut, and most probably feel that only gut can give the interesting shades and sound textures that make up the music of a Tobias Hume, for example. Of course, Gamba strings are much thicker, and there are less of them, so the practicality issue is also less. I would think that practicality is the major factor that stops many lutenists from choosing gut, and that this is a much more important element in their choice, than any claim to the better sound of synthetics. Indeed a good compromise, as you have suggested, is the use of some synthetics in the crucial positions, where a breakage might ruin a concert, and even a choice of mainly synthetics, in some 'on tour' situations, or when playing on a boat, as I seem to remember David once did, is surely a sensible solution; but the reference, as you have also suggested (at least for early music), must surely remain gut. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
You should have warned me forty years ago. Caveat Emptor. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Dan, Are synthetic strings close to the sound of old guts? Dunno. Are modern guts any closer? Dunno. Let's call the whole thing off. Chris Well, Chris, I still advise reading Mimmo Peruffo's web page, The Lute in it's Historical Reality, at least for the information assembled by a truly dedicated lifetime player, researcher, string maker. Other than that, I agree- let's meet down at the old Lute Bar for drinks. I'll buy the first round. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Agree completely. Never meant to sound like the HIP fuzz, and as I mentioned earlier, only two of my instruments are gutted. And as Chris Wilke observed, it's modern gut- how close the the real deal is at least somewhat speculative. Dan - Off to work now. It's a shame that this point has to be re-made whenever the moral and aural superiority of gut strings and those who use them are trumpeted (sackbutted?) on this list. Let the research and experimentation continue. But, and I emphasize this for lurkers and shy beginners alike, there is nothing wrong with playing your lute using the string material you can afford, can look after and make sound pleasing to your ear. There are many performers whose concerts and recordings I can only dream to one day emulate who use mostly synthetics. Same for gut. But using gut is not an excuse for poorly sounding and out of tune play, and I've heard both live concerts and recordings on modern gut that I would not want to hear again. Danny (2 instruments all synthetic strings, archlute 1/2 gut, 11 course lute all gut) On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:21 PM, [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
I think Joe is just going with his gut. (I know the sound better part is only an opinion, but the only-an-opinion thing hasn't seemed to slow down the gut advocates.) Respectfully, Joseph Mayes Like some of the rest of us, I've been following the double-track path of getting the best gut strings possible, completing the path of exploration that's part of the whole raison d'etre of luting in the first place, and getting best sounding, (usually gut-like) synthetics as possible for all the obvious reasons of durability and stability. One of the many controversies that make lute life interesting; and always a winner for starting a fight down at the Lute Bar on a dull evening. And don't even get Vinnie Galilei started on tastini. Dan It don't mean a thing If it ain't got gut strings. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The refined oboe
Yeah, he sure can- it was pleasure to hear live; thanks for posting this. Dan Years ago, I did some work with solo oboe which was fun but too loud. This guy can play like a cornetto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSYUfXn0PI -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
You really have the feel for this style. Very nice. And of course, the gut sounds better. A lot better. My Baroque lute and vihuela are in gut, and switching to the archlute (carbon, nylon, and copper wound basses- Satan's Strings!) the feel is positively slimy. The damn thing still sounds good, but it takes getting used to. I actually have more problems with the left hand fingers sliding around on the fingerboard like a drunken ice skater than I do with the right hand touch. No advice, other than to become sensitive to the change from one to the other. For right hand, lots of careful warm-ups, slow, sensitive quality repetitions with EXTREMELY relaxed finger tips. And yet, a measure of strength behind the stroke. Don't let the hand or wrist become locked, but still feel the action come from smooth, elastic finger strokes. Hard to describe some of this stuff. Dan Dear lutenists, the difference of touch between those two approachs of stringing seems to be a tricky business! I had (still have!;-) problems after years of synthetics in starting with gut strings, but after getting some preliminary touch to gut strings, playing the synthetics with acceptable sound feels even more difficult than the move from synthetics to gut! Any advice? Any advice other than stay in gut/synthetics? Arto -- = To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering
This is the fingering I sent to Leonard. Any thoughts, improvements? Is it clear? __ In the 4th measure, 2nd beat, prepare by fingering the c-a with the index finger, then the d-f with either index sliding up to d or middle finger, (I prefer sliding index) but little finger on f fret 3rd course in any case and KEEP IT DOWN! Last beat of that measure, the c fret, 2nd course, under the first * top line, use index finger. KEEP THE INDEX FINGER ON THAT 2nd COURSE! Next measure, slide the index to the d fret, middle finger takes the low 6th course B flat, d fret, little finger f fret, 3rd course- where it has been since the last measure. Keep middle finger and little finger in place as you slide index finger BACK to 2nd course c fret, then back up to d fret for last beat/chord of measure 5. Next line, complete position change and back to more normal fingerings. Hope this is clear, it may feel a touch counter-intuitive or weird at first, but it works- and I can't see a smoother way. Please let me know how this works for you, and if I've explained adequately. Dan | |\ | | * | | __ _a__c__a_ _c__a _a_a_ a |_c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_| |_d__f_|_|___f_|f|_f_f_| |__|_|_|_|_| |_a|_a___|_a___|_a___|_| |__|_|_|_|_d___| * _ _ _ a _ |_c__a|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a| |_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_| |___e_|e|_|_|___e_| |_a___|_|_a___|_|_a___| |_|_a___|_|_d___|_| | | *|. _ _ a _ _ ___ |_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|_a_a_|_c_| |_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d_| |e|_|_|___e_|e|___| |_|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a_| |_a___|_|_d___|_|_a___|___| To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 --
[LUTE] Re: Stickers and Decals
My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have never taken anyone else's lute with identical black case by accident, or had mine taken. -Dan R.I.P. Phillippa Dunne had a Human Remains sign, on hers. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples, there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly all our notable baroque lutenists of today use a thumb-under technique. This even applies to a lutenist I've seen in a recent video who is described as never having played renaissance lute. What gives? Why don't baroque lutenists today use what is an unquestionably obvious historical technique? Thumb under/in was the best way to make a clean break from unworkable classical guitar technique in the early days of the lute revival at the point when lutes built on real proper historic principles made such a break a necessity; not merely a stylistic indulgence. At the same time, the harsh, but twangy sound quality of the strings available- particularly the thin, overspun basses- could only be adequately tamed by rounder, softer strokes resulting from the thumb-in hand position, also played closer to the rose than the bridge. One anachronism cancelling out the other, as it were. Speaking as a lifetime player who made that exact transition, back in the 1970's, by practicing it fanatically five hours or so daily, I can tell you that one does not give up or radically change such a hard won goal lightly. (No historical record of any of the original players making the difficult switch from thumb under to thumb out, and then going back to the prior technique) But, when I obtained a 10 course lute some years later, I was indeed bothered by the injunctions of Nicholas Vallet- whose music I had fallen in love with- Stobaus, etc., and the overwhelming iconographical evidence. I slowly began exploring historic thumb out/over, nothing at all like classical guitar. It was only in 2004 that I felt comfortable enough to use historic thumb-out in performance, but having given up music as a profession I had more time to experiment and fewer high pressure gigs requiring unconsciously rock-solid technical security. Also, gut and more gut-like bass strings made such a refinement sensible and rewarding. Not that my videos are anything to write home about, but you can see and maybe hear the differences between my RH techniques on the 6 course lute vs. the vihuela. They will be more obvious if I ever record on the archlute or d-minor Baroque lute. http://www.vimeo.com/user814372/videos Apologies for some harsh sounds, much work still to do if I live long enough. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: single second course on 10 course lutes
Taco- Martin of course has nailed it all down as authoritatively as anyone in the business could, combining as he does, the triple threat polymath combo of performer, builder, and scholar. One of the most beautiful 11 course lutes I ever saw a picture of had a doubled 2nd course. I forget which museum, I hope not the Victoria and Albert. Beware of designating any particular technique as being Baroque; if you mean thumb out/over, it was well established by many Renaissance players in the late 16th century on lutes of fewer than 10 courses, and even earlier in Spain on the vihuela. It's the specific application of elements of technique that may be more characteristic of one period over another. Some comments as a lifetime player: I can tell you that mastering the touch- especially the right hand of course, but also the left- on a doubled first course gives one a skill and sensitivity that will benefit any lute or any other double-course instrument one ever plays. But be advised, the double first is a troublesome beast; at first getting used to the touch and- with gut, the tiresome matching and relatively frequent replacements and expense. But gut is by far the best material for this special 1st course configuration for feel and sound. a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. The best training refinement I have ever had in recent years was putting a doubled gut first course on my Chambure copy vihuela. It took many months of hard work to master the touch; almost as difficult as learning thumb-in lute touch/technique after modern guitar training many decades ago. Dan Hi Taco, We have very little evidence for any of this, of course. But it seems extremely probable that the single 2nd came into being when people converted 10c lutes into 11c lutes, because it involved only the addition of a treble rider, a bass extension to the bridge, and an overhanging nut - no major rebuild of pegbox, no need to open the lute. There are plenty of 11c lutes with double 2nd in paintings and surviving lutes, perhaps they were new-built rather than conversions. Unusually, Thomas Mace seems to have used a double first as well as a double 2nd. Mary Burwell's author has it that the single 2nd is used because it is difficult to find two strings to agree, but I suspect that the real reason is the ease of conversion from 10c to 11c. So I think it is very unlikely that 10c lutes ever had a single 2nd, in fact one might ask whether or not they had a double 1st, since double firsts were common in 7 and 8c lutes, and used also by Dowland on 9c lutes (1610). I'm not convinced that playing technique has anything to do with it, except that to a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. Best wishes, Martin Taco Walstra wrote: Does anybody know when the single second course came into use on baroque lutes? During a relative short period several new, transitional tunings came into use before everybody settled on Dm tuning on 10 course lutes. But did these lutes have a single 2nd course? If a typical baroque technique was already used it's perhaps yes. Ballard is still renaissance tuning with -I assume- a double 2nd string, or do we still play this music on totally wrong instruments and wrong technique? Was change in playing technique the only reason for the change? Are there any historical facts about this in literature, old instruments? Taco - who just turned his 10 course into a french baroque lute. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
A number of ergonomic subtleties here- very dependent on individual hand/finger/thumb configurations, what lute- shape, size relative to the player, holding position, stringing- for universal hard fast rules (beyond the obvious relating to thumb-index diminutions not damping the next course if it needs to sound) Some players- including a few of my own students- do have to follow dt's injunction against it for the reasons he gives. I have never had a problem playing rest strokes, but I use them ONLY in the bass- never beyond the 5th course, and not on the 5th if it would cause a bump in the sound or engage the wrist inappropriately. In order to do it correctly- for my technique- it is, in fact, very much a graze- sweeping smoothly through both strings of the course and resting lightly on the next- not like the deep digging that I used to do on the classical guitar. Care must be taken not to splat the strings of the course. But this must be avoided everywhere, with any type of stroke. I have found that on the multi-course lutes, it becomes harder NOT to do thumb rest strokes at certain, but variable points- the lower into the bass range one goes. As to Dowland (or anyone else) we don't need scriptural sanction for every little thing. Of course, any and every last bit of information our illustrious ancestors have left is vital. But we can't be scared to just play. Be bold, but be informed. Or the other way around. No rest strokes on the chanterelle, in any ordinary sense; unless you are playing out of raised, classical guitar RH stance. High wrist, little finger no where near the sound board. Doesn't work on HIP lutes, and especially not of course on a double chanterelle. I have, on occasion, tried very slow rest strokes from the thumb under position (little finger down in contact) for deep-into-the-finger-pad feel, but strictly experimental exploratory. Never became a practice or performance technique. On Baroque lute, with single first second courses, playing thumb out (and over up), Nigel North instructed me never to use rest strokes on the first or second courses. Dan Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
It is not inappropriate to mention here that David practices (and performs) what he preaches. I had the good fortune to hear him in concert with the great Baroque oboe player Gonzalo X. Ruiz last night. If my aging vision serves, I saw him really whanging out all the low diapasons on his archlute with free strokes. Good, clean sound too, very audible over the harpsichord and cello or bass viol. Congratulations on a fine concert. And good free stroke basses. Dan Some teachers teach the rest stroke in the bass for both renaissance and baroque. I don't, because it unfortunately affects the wrist and then the tone. I've heard some people do it it well, but there is often a bump in the sound, and also the technique is prone to timing issues. Perhaps that is fixable. You can make a case for a grazing stroke, however. I do teach and rely upon the single graze and double graze for chords, and particularly for the earlier repertory. Basically, the thumb hits one or two and the first finger hits two, three, or four simultaneously. When struck properly, all strings vibrate in a plane, which I now can test with a high speed camcorder. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in bottle-flinging range. I hope that is a metaphor. I thought that only happened in Blues Brothers movies. Oh no. Such places exist, fortunately it didn't reach that point in my case. Verbally delivered constructive criticism made all things clear- but my country-rock guitarist lute student treated my wife (who coached him on singing Elizabethan songs) and me to a tour of his home town venue, the Pequea Inn, rural Pennsylvania. Outside of town, next to the railroad tracks along the Susquehanna River. Floor to ceiling chicken wire in front of the stage; Dave- my student- informed us that the chicken wire was mandatory for protection; if the audience hated the band, the Texas long-neck beer bottles would indeed come flying- and if they really loved it, the bottles would also come flying- sheer exuberance ruling the emotions, fueled by the contents of said bottles. But the really big draw at the Pequea Inn was the railroad. Any time a train went past, the whole bar emptied for a closer view. Welcome to the country, Y'all. Well, it seems to me such aggressive disapproval is pretty transparent hostility. It says way more about that person than you, for sure. If it were me, even knowing that, I would still feel hurt, hurt that there are people like that out there. Thank goodness you didn't let it get to you. I'll claim a small part of that sympathy, too, if you don't mind; but of course the learned stab in the back definitely goes deeper than the above slap stick. Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room, launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did wrong, that could be improved, and how- but the performer shushed him in mid-sentence and said NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if you must! Even if the criticism is well meant, there is always a proper time, way, and place. *Neither one on this list. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room, launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did wrong, that could be improved, and how- but the performer shushed him in mid-sentence and said NOT NOW, damn it! Talk to me tomorrow, if you must! Even if the criticism is well meant, there is always a proper time, way, and place. It was really bad timing more than bad intentions. The critic was suffering from a fit of frantic pedantry; and couldn't control himself. He has since gone on to become a fine teacher, and the performer has gone on to become a successful concert artist. This happened about 40 years ago; I have been friends of both parties. -Dan It's hard to determine the proper time to potentially make a person sad and evoke that tundra-esque reaction David talked about... sometimes one should simply leave it or utter a friendly white lie, I agree. But as it seems one has to ask one self how honest one is with one's urge to utter this and that... (difficult, I know...:-) The above critic - if I got the story right - intruded the post-concert celebration with inpolite and harsh negativity only, made himself important in the most inadequate way to the poor artist - who certainly had a right to be proud and happy and have a wondeful time in the first place after having performed at such a prestigious place, it probably was a big event for him. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Yes, that's the one. The entire CD is on that high level. This is a good thread to note that many older generation, (but post heavy-lute, played with unformed or uninformed technique) are not the least bit obsolete- Chris Wilson comes first to my mind as an often exquisite player- particularly on one CD of early Italian repertoire. Last week at the music store where I work I grabbed an old LP of a young Hopkinson Smith performing on the Widhalm lute- an unrestored 18 century swan-neck style 13 course instrument, miraculously in playing condition. No turntable, I actually don't know how it sounds. If anyone really wants it, email me off list. Dan I think Schäffer's CD is re-issued on CD (http://www.amazon.com/French-Baroque-Suites-Reusner-Conradi/dp/B029VU) A great recordung which I would like to recommend wholeheartedly Thomas Daniel Winheld schrieb: And of course the fine rendition by the late Michael Schaffer of the A major suite on his recording of French Baroque Lute Suites, which was available on CD, don't think it's still in print, but used copies may be available. Definitely a must have. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Ah yes, deconstructive criticism, delivered with the kindest of intentions- If this sincere critic is being slanderously misunderstood; he should respond, set the record straight, and hugs all around. It's a small world, after all- and it's that tunnel-vision vehemence which seems to gather more intensity, the more narrowly the vision is focused. I remember at a lute gathering one year a famous player was being shredded for some lute crime, and my wife said, For God's sake, it's just a difference of opinion on interpreting Francesco da Milano; he didn't fly an airplane into a building! My most interesting critique- (not intentionally constructive) was being pointedly disinvited to leave the stage at a country-western bar in rural Maine, the benighted new owner had thought that he could raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in bottle-flinging range. By contrast, the next year I started giving lute lessons to an actual country-rock guitarist, one who was very used to the flying missile reviews routinely encountered in his normal working gigs. He was profoundly unnerved the first time he gave a lute recital before an audience of sober, polite, seated people who quietly gave him their quiet and undivided attention. There must be a happy medium somewhere, short of lounge entertainment, and my apologies for veering off of video reviews into old reminiscence. It's still a brave new world for me, and I stopped videoing myself after becoming my own worst critic. Much improvement needed, but I will be back in shooting range one of these days. Dan Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical Three more
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! This is actually a point of serious interest. Normally, watching someone of opposite hand/eye orientation do a familiar task is disorienting, (at least on the immediate perceptive response level) hence the historic prejudice against those of minority orientation (obviously, mostly lefties) Some practical group problems- a line of violinists getting poked by every 20th person. Watching one of David's excellent videos recently I got a visual orientation epiphany- I held up my own two hands (air lute) opposite his on the computer screen, and felt that I was being guided- as if through a mirrored reflection- and all fell into place. No more dizzy feeling of wrong sided playing, but instead an immediate, sudden, and final locking into place. I don't recall how often watching oneself in a mirror for self-correction in lute study has been recommended, but I am sure it has been done. I will now advise my own students to try both that and observe David's videos with the mirrored visual guidance state of mind. This form of self observance is of course standard in dance studios and martial arts schools. Oh yes, nothing left-handed about the sound. Clean, but gutsy- played instructively rather than concerty which of course is to the point. Good work on the new Baroque lute debut postings, too. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Ed Martin has learned quite a bit about the multiple Conradis- and has recorded them as well. Perhaps he will weigh in here on this, unless it was already dealt with and may be in the archives. Dan I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces. I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg! I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by them... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
And of course the fine rendition by the late Michael Schaffer of the A major suite on his recording of French Baroque Lute Suites, which was available on CD, don't think it's still in print, but used copies may be available. Definitely a must have. Dan -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tastini
A prettty outlandish set of tastini at No, not at all. Very standard slantini. They were tried unsuccessfully on the Orpharion, fantini, I believe. Very good performance, too. Thanks! Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tastini
Check out the others- I like the Purcell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63VLgP-sezQfeature=related VIII. Leonardo Leo: Manca sollecita / Simone Kermes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss Baroque Lute Comparison
Danny- Bravo! Very satisfying videos. I'm with Ed Martin on this; I much prefer the 11 course in gut, although they both sound very good. It reminds me of my own 13 course, which is mostly gut, while your 13 course shares some of the tonal qualities of my archlute, which is all synthetic including copper overspun basses. The extra, left-over vibration/sustain in the synthetics manifests (in MY ears!) as a slight disturbance in the force, but boy is it convenient to have one lute in synthetics. Your sound has improved significantly over the first time I ever heard you (only on line so far); and you have achieved a unified intimacy- an at-oneness- with your lutes that is strong, obvious, and very moving. Keep up the good work, this was a pleasure to listen to. Dan I recently did a video comparison of the D Major Reusner Passacaglia between my 11 and 13 course lutes, but having been recorded a few months apart, it wasn't really a fair competition. Here now is a direct comparison filmed consecutively with the same equipment, the same distance from the same mic and the same processing by way of a Weiss C Major Prelude: -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lutes in BWV 118?
Even a liuto forte would not pass the lituus test. Happy New Year! -Dan It's lituus ad not Liuto. Andreas -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Silk String Sources
This place might be worth checking out. Next time I'm in Chinatown for dim sum I will. Some years ago I went there and discovered that Erhu bows don't work for bass viols; I had forgotten about that place since then. http://www.clarionmusic.com/ Ron- That is Rakov, not Batov? I would be very interested in his strings also. (treble trouble, as usual) David: You would do well to contact Alexander Rakov, the silk string specialist who contributes regularly to this list. I've tried his silk strings on my six-course lute and found the trebles to be, well, silky and also clear and strong. They are remarkably consistent and the basses far more responsive than gut basses I have used. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:26 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments California has a lively community of koto and shamisen players, it shouldn't be too difficult to find some thinner gauges, silk strings for shamisen to try out on your mandolin or lute. David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings/silk strings
Thanks everyone. Hope to make contact with Rakov in regard to silk strings. Playing from the Siena Ms. on my last pair of gut trebles this morning- (doubled first on my Chambure copy vihuela) during the gentle haze of a happy holiday hangover is a most poignant moment on this overcast December 26th. A very special Thank You to DvO for his exceptional encyclopedic website; I navigated to this page after viewing the one he posted- http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/sashimisen/things_japanese/aware_f.html Mono no Aware - A Sensitivity to Things In and of itself, the right hangover can put one directly into an intense state of Mono no Aware, and this page on it is a must reading for musicians on this list. Two more candidates for sublime Mono no Aware that I've encountered lately are Ego flos campi from the Song of Songs set by Jacob Clemens non Papa (Achingly positive) and Je Prens Congie by Nicolas Gombert (achingly negative, like Mille Regretz but sadder) Happy Interholiday Moments to all- Dan http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/sashimisen/things_japanese/koto_f.ht ml David - going to cook now :-) So how was dinner? -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Guitar, but less forte/faulty, organ
For guitarists, ex-guitarists, occasional guitarists, and lutenists who care- And especially for those of us for whom repertoire, timbre, temperaments vis-a-vis matters guitaristic are of concern, check out this guy. I have listened to a few of his CD's at the music store where I work, some very worthwhile material. I believe we have noted his interchangeable fretboards on this list before, but his music is worth a hearing. http://www.otherminds.org/shtml/Schneider.shtml And also- Baroque organ reconstruction reproduction. A must read for us, really. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22organ.html?_r=1em=pagewanted=all -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I am a lutenist who does have a satisfactory guitar- a 7 string, steel-string instrument that at least gives a suggestion of Orpharion timbre and is flexible enough to be re-tuned to Bandora intervals. Wonderful change of tone color; only problem is that ET makes it sound out of tune to my re-educated ears. Dan I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there are players that can do it. The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maÆtre: Webern op.18, Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
And considering the average lifespan, it's a miracle that as much culture and civilization as there was seems to have prevailed. We are wrestling with a heritage left to us by world of underage alcoholics. This certainly explains a lot. Dan Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Time for another series of your lute seminars. Plenty more Damilano wine where that first bottle came from. They also do a Barolo. That is exactly right. Any recreation of music would have to have been semi intoxicated. d -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Ah, Roman- the happy optimist shows his face! The glass is at least half-full of cheap Italian red, the stuff that courses through my veins. Dan Average lifespan implies that anyone surviving infancy had a reasonable shot at dying of plague at the age of 99, like Titian. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
You mean Chaconne a son mauvais gout. Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have been out of the office for this one) thanks, Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Well- if you have to be stuck in an office job, you've got one of the better ones. Not as funny as The Office but much easier on the eyes and especially the ears. Jeez, what a dress code! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Closure of VA Instrument Gallery
Such a sad, and disgusting situation. It's pathetic where the so-called priorities seem to lie. This is cultural devolution of the worst kind, and will have actual consequences- I can relate personally; as a young guitar student many decades ago, visiting family friends in London on my way to Italy to study with Alirio Diaz, it was the fantastic collection of instruments in the VA that helped move me faster and further into the lute early music world. Shameful, indeed- including the necessity of James Yorke to manage so much on his own. So sorry about this. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: luciano faria
My archery mentor actually prefers moving targets. But that takes us OT because his archery is of the Hun Mongol tradition, not European Mediaeval/Renaissance. There is no bagpipe season here in California, anyway. Maybe in the UK?-Dan (Once attempted a duet with a real Highland Bagpiper at the old Eagle Tavern in NYC with my old Hugh Gough 8 course. Not recommended) And here we always thought it was because it's harder to hit a moving target! You know why bagpipes march while playing, of course. To get away from the noise. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: luciano faria
The connection between single malt scotch theorboes has me concerned. Those of us limited to regular lutes should double our malts at the octave. Especially at this time of year. He's currently building me a theorbo, which should be ready soon. Let me know if you do end up in this corner of the country. No scotch at the moment, but I do have a bottle of excellent micro-distillery pear brandy I just want to remind everyone that operating a theorbo while under the influence of alcohol is not only illegal, but extremely dangerous. Stick to small ensembles slow tempi. If pulled over, call Howard! Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: luciano faria
I can third that motion. Mel has rescued four of my instruments over the years to varying degrees- from a side crack in a vihuela (for bottle of Italian red wine) to a transfiguration of my 10 course lute into a small archlute. If David still has some of that special Oban on hand, that alone is worth the detour to the San Francisco area. I have 2/3 of a bottle of their Booze Ordinaire, and that beats out most other single malts. Dan I can also testify to the excellence of Mel Wong's work. He replaced the soundboard on my old 1963 Raymond Passauro 7 course and I didn't even have to pay him because the previous owner did, or at least I hope he/they did. mark David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: You could ask Mel Wong to fix it, his repairs are excellent. You can swing through SF and we will drink Single Malts. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute teachers in San Francisco area
Also highly recommend David Tayler. Dan Hi Steven, I would recommend the person I studied with, who is in Berkeley and who is also on this list - Dan Winheld. Note that I studied with Dan as a total beginner. Not sure which level you are at, but Dan comes with a hearty recommendation. Thanks, Alfred Eberle Hello, Just moved to San Francisco. Anyone have contacts for lute teachers in this area. Thanks! Steven -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Right hand technique
Throwing this out here; - OT music, OT instrument; but relevant RH technique especially for those of us concerned with late Renaissance thumb-out (or sometimes up). Jody Fisher is a highly accomplished professional jazz guitarist I met some years ago- what I find fascinating here is that he is a virtuoso plectrum player who has developed a very high level finger style that seems to have grown out of his plectrum tradition (note the hand/wrist angle position and some thumb-index work); but very different from classical guitar, and some obvious differences from lute- unanchored pinkie, extensive use of ring finger, no hesitation to repeat fingers when tempo allows; but overall incredibly free, fluent, and relaxed. Jody Fisher vids on YouTube Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:17:52 -0800 Baubles, Bangles, and Beads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2uDQ4XjcyY Good Morning Heartache [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ww4Z_bdMs Surfer Girl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=608-hSw9NUM The Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/go2jody2 -- -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ww4Z_bdMs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
And just one more, also from the 60's Black Night is Falling; Charles Brown So how does this compare to Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones? I think it was ergot in the Renaissance. In the 60s... ; ) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
All that stuff is well and good. Actually, it's magnificent, important, and the best course of study if you are planning to expound this song to a college audience. For me personally, all I ever needed was the bare song itself. Between difficult times in my life- including a touch of depression here there, (and some apartments I've lived in!)- well, that song in particular hits like a kick to the solar plexus. A special treat over the years has been the occasional private performance of it with the soprano I live with- my wife of 30 odd special years. A mutual harrowing purging. The best of the Elizabethans only gets better with time, age, and life; it's right there- at the very core. Dan On a basic level, you have a few settings for the starter image from which to expand outwards. My reading ( and I invite you to create your own) of the starter image is that it is a description of a dual world, one in which the person is buried alive in a marble tomb with no light, which at the same time is mirrored in the above world by being trapped inside one's body as a sort of creative/spiritual tomb. In this sense, it is directly derived from Elizabethan theories of existence of as above, so below, in which everything in heaven is mirrored on earth. The twist is, as above so below is moved to a focal plane of earth and hell. It is like taking the elevator one floor down in a Bosch triptych. In this reference frame, you can then read different qualities to the lines of the poem. In a different frame you would see different meanings, and so it goes, and so it should go. Rather than assigning a specific correspondence, you can see that the weeping of the marble walls resonates simultaneously on the level of the real properties of stone, contemporaneous ideas of underground tombs, the musical lamentations of both sacred and secular music, and Dowland's signature piece, Lachrimae. Some of these belong to both worlds--the internal, creative hell as well as the vanitas quality of Dowland falling out of favor at home even as Lachrimae become more popular abroad. The roof despair can refer to the inversion of the Elizabethan world view of :as above so below: by removing salvation from the resonance of the two worlds, but can also refer to any number of things such as lack of inspiration light. It can also, again on the real or immediate level, have the basic feeling of being trapped inside a real stone tomb and being unable to move the lid. And these that I mention, are only a few of a hundred ways to read the poem. There are dozens of cross references to Dowland's own songs possible, as well as the poems and songs of his contemporaries, such as the Danyel brothers, (Grief, keep within), Fulke Greville, Greaves and even Campion, as well as classical writers. As far as ground goes, I don't read that as a pun on the musical ground, although I do read sleep as a substitute for death or even poisoning as it is so used by other poets (e.g., Care-charming sleep). Many of these words have musical meanings, like accent or relish, but such a musical pun in this context doen not seem to have quite the right tone to my ear. It is not, in short, Danyel's Like as the lute delights. Dipping into the historical side, there are countless examples from English history and Classical Mythology which would have been well known to the Elizabethans. References such as Antigone, St Castullus and the Vestal Virgins are common in the literature. Specifically looking for those who suffered the same fate twice also brings up lesser known references, which though now obscure would have been familiar at the time, such as the intriguing legend of Saint Otteran, which is particularly interesting in regards to this poem and the religious controversies of the time. Enjoy rereading the poem and replaying the song. I always have; I always will. dt At 08:58 PM 12/2/2009, you wrote: A music student at my local college wants me to play lute for her senior capstone recital, and one of her choices of song is Dowland's In Darkness Let Me Dwell. I have pondered these words for some years now, and it seems obvious to me that The ground, the ground shall sorrow be... has multiple connotations - physically ground as in the foundation of a building, and musically ground as in variations on a ground. The roof despair... and ...walls of marble black... are obvious comparisons to a room or building, but could they have musical connotations as well?? Could the roof be the highest note in the range of the song? Following this line of thought, what would The walls of marble, black mean? Am I just pulling this out of my hat, or did the Elizabethans talk about their music in terms like these, other than ground? BTW, I love Ellen Hargis' recording of this with Jacob Heringman, lute and Mary Springfels, Viol on A Candle In The Dark. What are some of your favorite recordings of Darkness? Thanks, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music --
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares (including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable, or Wikie'd? Or is there some especially good source where one can find them? A side note esp. regarding Dowland's settings- frequently the underlay is problematic after the first verse, sometimes frustratingly so. It would be wonderful if there was a guide to solving some of those puzzles that have frustrated my song partner and me over the years. It's one of the Funeral Teares, a series of seven poems, set for soprano, alto and lute by Coprario, to commemorate the death of Charles Blount, Baron Mountjoy. It has two verses, Dowland only used the first verse, and apart from the obvious advice to read the second verse to understand the first one better, one should also read all seven poems to get an idea how this poems fits in. David - did I mention recorded some of Coprario's Funeral Teares on my latest CD 'Songs of Life and Death'? ;-) bc/lute-admin/index.html *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** Howard- thanks for the link to that page from the Hamlet conundrums website. Great stuff, just last week we saw the 1980 production of Hamlet starring Derek Jacoby, Patrick Stewart, and Claire Bloom. Also, references to Robert Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy are very appropriate here. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Thank you David. Tom's recommended website- also very helpful- is a hoot, and also worth checking out http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/funeral/index.htm On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net wrote: Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares (including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable, or All in one site: http://culturebase.org/home/harald-lillmeyer/Texte/Downloads/Downloa ds.html David My wife has just read both verses and responds thusly: Definitely that apartment on 25th Street, NYC. IN DARKNESS LET ME DWELL In darkness let me dwell; the ground shall sorrow be, The roof despair, to bar all cheerful light from me; The walls of marble black, that moist'ned still shall weep; My music, hellish jarring sounds, to banish friendly sleep. Thus, wedded to my woes, and bedded in my tomb, O let me dying live, till death doth come, till death doth come. My dainties grief shall be, and tears my poison'd wine, My sighs the air, through which my panting heart shall pine: My robes my mind shall suit exceeding blackest night, My study shall be tragic thoughts, sad fancy to delight. Pale ghosts and frightful shades shall my acquaintance be: O thus, my hapless joy, I haste to thee, I haste to thee. -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Metaphors
Human speech is like a cracked kettle on which we tap crude rhythms for bears to dance to, while longing to make music that will melt the stars. -Flaubert Another possibilty is that both poems are based on an unknown antecedent which may or may not have the extra verses. The question of the meaning of the extra verses is always a sticky one, as in the case of Ben Jonson's her triumph aka Have you seen but a bright lily grow: here either the copyists considered the extra verses irrelevant or, more likely, the poem circulated in an abbreviated form prior to publication. dt -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leos Janacek and lute
Really nice. Beautifully sung played. Thanks for the link, Roman. 2 Moravian folk-songs set by Janacek with an archlute (played by Jindrich Macek). Just gorgeous- http://www.loutna.cz/cz/sluzby-koncerty-moravska-lidova-poezie.aspx Enjoy! RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Arabian past
Any explanations? Or am I so ignorant that I am not worth a serious answer? Franz, you are perfectly worthy- but this worthless correspondent was at work today and did not get home until after 9:00 PM, PST. As to the question, firstly we have to know what Arab music was like at the time the Oud passed into European hands. We cannot assume that it was anything like modern Arab music (As Roman pointed out, the oud had frets way back then) and for that matter we don't even know enough about EUROPEAN music at that time. Lots of anthropology/musicology/organology cross-disciplinary matters for discussion here. By the way, the lute's ancestry has been traced to pre-Islamic Pakistan; with lutes first going East to China in the 7th Century AD (Pipa) and then Japan (Biwa)- so the Islamic transmission is but one step in a multifaceted Global migration. No one, or no culture, can claim exclusive ownership. This is just basic groundwork, of course. Your specific musical questions will eventually be answered by the professional lutenists and academic scholars who make this list so rewarding, and worthwhile. Give them a little time, and I guarantee that it will be discussed to death and beyond- at least I hope so, and look forward to it. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
