[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Hello, Jim! I live in a frigid climate in the winter (northern Minnesota), where yesterday morning it was -22 Farenheit ( it would be much worse, if you enter the wind chill factor). I always have to have a humidifier stoked. In the winter, if I can keep it at 40% humidity, I am happy, and my lutes also seem to be so. Happy Holidays to you, and all! ed Also, on a completely different matter. When the outdoor weather= dips below freezing and the humidity drops, I turn on my humidifier. I try= to keep the humidity in the rooms where the lutes are above 40 percent. Do= any of the luthiers or other experts know what the ideal humidity is? Cheers, Jim Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Anthony and All, Just to answer a few things from your message: If the evidence from surviving lutes is anything to go by, a double first was common on 7 and 8c lutes. There is no reason to associate this practice with any specific number of courses. I am in no doubt that the author of the Burwell lute tutor was referring to the upper octave of the 11th course when he said small 11th (because of the other remarks about how thick this string has to be, etc.). The 10/11c conversion I was describing is nothing to do with the octave-only 11th. If you have a 10c lute with a single first and all the rest double, that means you have 19 pegs. You only need one more for the 11c conversion not because the 11th is single but because the second is single: the 11c lute is 2x1 + 9x2 = 20 strings. But of course if you had a single 11th as well you wouldn't even need an extra peg TO seems to have become common at about the same time as the increase in courses from 7 to 10, so I would tend to stick to TI for 6c and have experimented with TO for lutes with more courses. I'm still in the early stages of learning TO, but I'm convinced it's the right thing to do. Gut basses (of whatever type) are less stretchy than wound ones and therefore involve much smaller movements of the peg for big changes in pitch. I have been pleasantly surprised that retuning them is less of a problem than I feared. Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal pitch. I still think of the Dowland lute as being in G even though it might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Indeed, and that should serve as a warning for all those (Jelma, deze is dus voor jou) who are contemplating a lute with a double first. If they are attached to 440 or 415 because these are ensemble standards in the modern world, and if they like using gut, they should have another look at string length and tension. Many of us, makers and players alike, will think of 0.40 for the first - single! - course and with pitch and tuning in hand will work out an appropriate string length from that. When using a double first they will have to use at least 0.38, and not everybody is happy with those. 0.38 Universale or Kathedrale strings are strong enough, but making a good tone on such thin strings is not always easy. Been there, done that. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Martin and All Le 22 déc. 08 à 10:33, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear Anthony and All, Just to answer a few things from your message: If the evidence from surviving lutes is anything to go by, a double first was common on 7 and 8c lutes. There is no reason to associate this practice with any specific number of courses. but how about the lute type? Could it be more appropriate with mutli- ribbed models? I am in no doubt that the author of the Burwell lute tutor was referring to the upper octave of the 11th course when he said small 11th (because of the other remarks about how thick this string has to be, etc.). The 10/11c conversion I was describing is nothing to do with the octave-only 11th. If you have a 10c lute with a single first and all the rest double, that means you have 19 pegs. You only need one more for the 11c conversion not because the 11th is single but because the second is single: the 11c lute is 2x1 + 9x2 = 20 strings. But of course if you had a single 11th as well you wouldn't even need an extra peg Yes that is indeed what I was meaning, counting the single on the 1c and 2c, plus the single on the 11c. I wonder whether anyone has tried playing like that just to see whether it is acceptable, or even better than playing with a bass string. The proof is in the pudding, as it is suitable to say right now! TO seems to have become common at about the same time as the increase in courses from 7 to 10, so I would tend to stick to TI for 6c and have experimented with TO for lutes with more courses. I'm still in the early stages of learning TO, but I'm convinced it's the right thing to do. Yes, it is tough making the change, I had only just mastered TI , but very necessary on an 11c, I feel. Just how much TO remains the question: When the little finger is quite far back (Charles Mouton) the fingers seem to pojnt downwards more, and the thumb goes well beyond them. http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg However, in that case, the thumb is not so near the bridge as the fingesr are; and yet you would think, with low tension basses, you would want the thumb nearer the bridge. With the little finger further forward (Jacques Gautier?), then the thumb and fingers are more aligned, but neither are near the bridge, http://www.aquilacorde.com/lut.jpg I have been playing around with this, but not coming to any clear conclusion. It does not seem to be just the little finger position which is so important, but where the thumb strikes the basses. Gut basses (of whatever type) are less stretchy than wound ones and therefore involve much smaller movements of the peg for big changes in pitch. I have been pleasantly surprised that retuning them is less of a problem than I feared. Oh I thought that might be the contrary, but it is a long time since I tuned a wirewound. Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal pitch. I still think of the Dowland lute as being in G even though it might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Yes that was the interesting point that I thought you were making. I suppose we should give the Hz value for the G, if we want to be non- ambiguous. Best wishes, Martin Best wishes to all Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dan, I have very much enjoyed your explanations of how you came to terms with the double top course, and how this improved your TO technique. It gave me more hope actually, as I am struggling somewhat with TO at present. Le 21 déc. 08 à 19:37, Daniel Winheld a écrit : No need to apologize Anthony, we are in disparate straits indeed as any single factor affects all other factors; and we are processing correlating many disparate bits of wreckage- tantalizing clues, contradictory artifacts, and the opinionated opinions of long dead musicians, string makers, luthiers who were as cantankerously human as we are. (And let's remember the sheep; whose 16th century guts were genetically the same as now, but is the breaking point really unaffected by diet processing?) I suspect at bottom they had the same love-hate relationship to the troublesome trebles as we do- are they worth the double expense, the double trouble with tuning need for absolute concordant trueness from open to 12 fret? For some music a singing, single treble string really is the best, while for polyphonic music and some accompanying tasks the even tone color, seamless transition, and perfect blending favor the doubled treble. That is a very good point, but I wonder how you decide the cut-off point between the two, but I suppose that is the same question we are always asking ourselves, even for TI/TO. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think Vihuela players usually keep to TO? Would this have something to do with the double top? If there is a reason for associating these, then we might have a reason for Dowland's adopting TO, while also using double tops. Yet TO in lute music is often associated with the break from a certain type of polyphonic music. Indeed, if the reason for the TI to TO shift should be sought in its musical function, and if that should be increased treble bass polarity, as suggested by J. Edwards, (1997), then this seems to go in the opposite direction of the polyphonic homogeneity function (seamless transition and even tone) that the double top would bring. There is something, here, that escapes me; but I do spend much of my time in almost total confusion, so there is nothing new there. My own attempts to get a handle on the doubled first go back to 1986, when I commissioned a multi-rib 8 course lute from Richard Fletcher; beautiful instrument that I now wish I had kept, but a number of personal difficulties forced me to part with it. Oh so I was wrong again. I thought you must have been using a 9c. Since then I learned historic thumb-out RH technique for playing 10 course, archlute, and 13 course lutes (Nicolas Vallet's vitriolic remarks about thumb-in-under frying my tender ears) and did not address the double-first problem successfully until I got my Chambure copy vihuela from Barber Harris- the instrument you can see hear me play on the Vimeo site. This instrument seems to want slightly higher tension than lutes, the Universale double chanterelle is .42 mm on a 64.5 SL, pitched as a nominal g, but A=392 (alright, f damn it) for an approximate tension of 35 N. With a single first it can sound good at 415, but is a little strained. I have decided on TO for this instrument, as much for arm- wrist ergonomic reasons as being in accord with Figueta Castellano. Getting good tone on any course, double or single, was initially much easier for me with thumb-under- but now that TO is comfortable the archlute d-minor lute sound clearer cleaner played TO. The 6-course lute- single first- (one Marco recercar on Vimeo) will always be a thumb-under instrument. I do not now own a nine-course lute, that is number one on my cosmic wish-list. Do you try to keep your TO as a slight shift from your TI, as Jakob Lindberg declares he does in his interview with Ed Durbrow, or do you try to maximize the difference. I am not sure which tactic is easier. t present I am shifting between the two, as I show in my message to Martin. I hope you get your 9c in your stocking or for the New Year!! Best wishes Anthony I appologize for the disparate nature of my remarks. Best wishes Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Tell me if I am wrong, but I think Vihuela players usually keep to TO? Would this have something to do with the double top? If there is a reason for associating these, then we might have a reason for Dowland's adopting TO, while also using double tops. That's the best question for starting a brawl down at the vihuela player's pub. One source (Juan Bermudo? Henestrosa?) refers to TO as Figueta (fingering) Castellano and TI as Figueta Extranjera (Foreign fingering) We have covered this topic at length on the list previously- check the archives (vihuela list archives too, I imagine). Based on the differing forms and functionalities of people's hands, wrists, and fingers, and the different ergonomic issues imposed by differing instrument shapes sizes I think TO/TI choice is as often a technical decision as purely musical. Personally, double or single first has had zero effect on whether I go TO or TI on a particular instrument. Yet TO in lute music is often associated with the break from a certain type of polyphonic music. Indeed, if the reason for the TI to TO shift should be sought in its musical function, and if that should be increased treble bass polarity, as suggested by J. Edwards, (1997), then this seems to go in the opposite direction of the polyphonic homogeneity function (seamless transition and even tone) that the double top would bring. There is something, here, that escapes me; but I do spend much of my time in almost total confusion, so there is nothing new there. Monody and the single-string first? I don't know- I've seen pics of archlutes liuti attorbiato with peg counts limiting one to a single first as well as those allowing the double. Martin Shepherd would have a better handle on that. Certainly increasing numbers of bass courses dictates thumb UP, and finally the complete abandonment of any thumb-index passagi in late Baroque plucked instrument play. I do notice that most modern players have a shallower angle- wrist/hand to the strings than the majority of players in the old pictures. Oh so I was wrong again. I thought you must have been using a 9c. Well, my very first lute- one of those old guitar-lutes with metal frets and guitar saddle bridge did in fact have 9 courses! -THAT was about a million years ago. Do you try to keep your TO as a slight shift from your TI, as Jakob Lindberg declares he does in his interview with Ed Durbrow, or do you try to maximize the difference. I am not sure which tactic is easier. at present I am shifting between the two, as I show in my message to Martin. Picture is worth a bunch of words, as they say. Check my hands at the Vimeo site: http://www.vimeo.com/user814372/videos I've only done one video so far with the 6-course, but that's my typical hand/wrist position for thumb in- and my TO on vihuela, Baroque lute, etc. is radically different from anything I ever did on classical guitar. I hope you get your 9c in your stocking or for the New Year!! If only Martin Shepherd was Santa Claus! Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Martin, this is very well stated. ed Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal pitch. I still think of the Dowland lute as being in G even though it might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Best wishes, Martin Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Check out this one- http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/furniture/musical_instruments/objects/object.php?id=13id2=1action=nexthits=53page=1pages=5object_type=country=start_year=end_year=object=artist=maker= Ooops, Just a further clarification: I've never seen an 11 or 13c lute with a double first. Mace is the only late source for it, and perhaps it was just him being old-fashioned. It seems likely that a single 2nd was the result of converting a 10c lute into 11c. The easy way to do the conversion is to add a treble rider to get an extra peg and make the second course single, so you don't have to rebuild the pegbox. All you have to do then is extend the bridge and nut by one more course on the bass side; you end up with an overhanging 11th course but that's OK because you don't want to finger it anyway. When 11c lutes were made anew there would have been no reason to have a single second, though once it had become common in converted lutes it may have persisted thereafter. Best wishes, Martin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
For a different take on Choc lute, see the sad story of Nicholas Smith on this page [1]http://users.stargate.net/~blink/imagepg.html Unfortunately the image link doesn't work any longer - who knows what it might have revealed. P -- Forwarded message -- From: Jelma van Amersfoort [2]jel...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Peg count on Choc lute To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear lutenists, Can anyone shed some light on this: Why doe the Choc liuto attiorbato in the Victoria and Albert Museum have 14 pegs on the first peghead? See: [4]http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/furniture/musical_instruments/objec ts/object.php?action=id=4id2=0hits=page=pages=object_type=countr y=start_year=end_year=object=artist= Or: [5]http://www.vam.ac.uk/apps/objects/1592_musical_instruments/images/fu llsize/7756-1862.jpg Were there still players that used a double first course around the supposed-date-of-origin of this instrument (1650)? Or is it a restoration mistake? Or is there an esthetical reason for it, like the pleasing effect of having equal rows of pegs on both sides of the first peghead? I'm asking partly because Martin de Witte is in the process of making a copy of this instrument for me (I'm very excited) (actually, he's building TWO, one in grenadil and one in yew), and he asked if I wanted 13 or 14 pegs on the first head. I'm going for 14, but I'm very interested in your opinions! Thanks, Jelma van Amersfoort, Amsterdam To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [7]peter.l...@gmail.com web: [8]www.silvius.co.uk [9]http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ [10]www.myspace.com/sambuca999 [11]www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- References 1. http://users.stargate.net/~blink/imagepg.html 2. mailto:jel...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/furniture/musical_instruments/objects/object.php?action=id=4id2=0hits=page=pages=object_type=country=start_year=end_year=object=artist= 5. http://www.vam.ac.uk/apps/objects/1592_musical_instruments/images/fullsize/7756-1862.jpg 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com 8. http://www.silvius.co.uk/ 9. http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ 10. http://www.myspace.com/sambuca999 11. http://www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Martin, Dan and all Thank you for such a detailed reply. Le 20 déc. 08 à 00:24, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. Three of our most popular 7c lutes from the Venere workshop, the 44cm C39, the 58.7cm lute in Bologna, and the 66.8cm C36, have their original bridges and pegboxes and a double top course. Most 9c lute owners, who have mentioned them, here, do seem to use double top courses; perhaps, this is more because of Dowland's remarks, rather than general evidence from extant 9c lutes (the Matheus Buchenberg / Roma 9c lute in Edinburgh, for example, does not seem to have a double top course, unless this could be the result of a reconstruction error?); while I have never seen mention of a modern 8c or 10c lute with a double top course. Perhaps this is because 9c lutes are still felt to be at the cutting edge of research; lutenists are therefore, more open to trying-out double top-strings, while allowing (even encouraging) lutemakers to experiment hypotheses around diapason and tension with this lute type, (as Martin's message here, seems to show): http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg18140.html ; whereas 8c and 10c lutes have, perhaps, become too standardized (ex guitarists favourites?), for such experimentation, even if historically, double-top might have been as rare (or common) on historical 8c or 10c lutes. Would the 9c string structure always have been associated with a multi-ribbed body, rather than a Bologna-mutational type? If so, would it also be safe to associate double first courses, whatever the number of courses (from 7 to 11c), also with the multi-ribbed shape, rather than with Bologna models? As Martin said in his above message, the double top does seem to imply a lower diapason (if not lower tension) than has tended to be used recently. This could be indicative of a late renaissance early baroque fashion that went beyond the double-top strung lute, as lutenists at the moment do seem to be ackowledging: 392 seems to be becoming almost standard for solo transitional and Baroque lute. At least, that is the advice I seem to be receiving. The double top course seems to have been relatively rare on 6c lutes, and by the late 17th C the author of the Burwell tutor explains the single 2nd on the 11c course by claiming that they could hardly ever find two strings to agree - a problem which would have been even more acute for a first course. I do find the single treble courses on my 11c lute easier to play clearly, than the 3c with unison double, even at 0,58. The lute is at 408Hz, reduced tension from 415Hz, so perhaps this is partly due to the lowered tension. The Meanes with greater diameter do not seem to present this problem. Although, I am newly adapting to TO for this lute, and I don't recall having had quite the same problem for the second course, when playing TI, on my 7C lute; but then that was at a high tension and at 440Hz. Nevertheless, I can just imagine how difficult a low tension double 1c at 0,40 could be, particularly if they are not almost identically paired. Working to obtain a better sound on the 3c does seem to be improving my TO playing, just as Dan tells for the double 1c on his nine course lute. I imagine that if you are a TI player, and you acquire a 9c-double- top-course lute, you would also feel obliged to swap to TO on that lute (as Dowland seems to have done), while perhaps still playing TI on your 7c lute (imitating, in that, what might have occurred historically for Dowland, unless this change ocurred from 6c to 7c?). Although, once Dowland himself changed to TO, I don't suppose he would have swapped back, just because he happened to have picked up his old 7c lute. I think Martin mentioned he was changing to TO with this 9c lute? Do you both, Martin or Dan, tend to make this TI to TO swap when moving from 7c to 9 or 10c? But I think it is fairly certain that the single 2nd originated as a conversion feature (from 10c to 11c), and iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. If we interpret Burwell's keeping only the small eleventh as meaning keeping only the eleventh octave, then I suppose with just a change to the bridge and nut, you could string a 10c as an 11c with no extra pegs. That was the interpretation that Chris Pearcy put forward in a previous exchange on that topic: I think the idea of the single 11th course was possibly transitional - to make a 10c into an 11c set up with single second course, leaving another single for the 11th. My understanding was that this 11th course was an 8ve and not a bordon. Chris Pearcy Another interpretation might be that French musicians were searching for clarity, and everything was pared
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
No need to apologize Anthony, we are in disparate straits indeed as any single factor affects all other factors; and we are processing correlating many disparate bits of wreckage- tantalizing clues, contradictory artifacts, and the opinionated opinions of long dead musicians, string makers, luthiers who were as cantankerously human as we are. (And let's remember the sheep; whose 16th century guts were genetically the same as now, but is the breaking point really unaffected by diet processing?) I suspect at bottom they had the same love-hate relationship to the troublesome trebles as we do- are they worth the double expense, the double trouble with tuning need for absolute concordant trueness from open to 12 fret? For some music a singing, single treble string really is the best, while for polyphonic music and some accompanying tasks the even tone color, seamless transition, and perfect blending favor the doubled treble. My own attempts to get a handle on the doubled first go back to 1986, when I commissioned a multi-rib 8 course lute from Richard Fletcher; beautiful instrument that I now wish I had kept, but a number of personal difficulties forced me to part with it. Since then I learned historic thumb-out RH technique for playing 10 course, archlute, and 13 course lutes (Nicolas Vallet's vitriolic remarks about thumb-in-under frying my tender ears) and did not address the double-first problem successfully until I got my Chambure copy vihuela from Barber Harris- the instrument you can see hear me play on the Vimeo site. This instrument seems to want slightly higher tension than lutes, the Universale double chanterelle is .42 mm on a 64.5 SL, pitched as a nominal g, but A=392 (alright, f damn it) for an approximate tension of 35 N. With a single first it can sound good at 415, but is a little strained. I have decided on TO for this instrument, as much for arm-wrist ergonomic reasons as being in accord with Figueta Castellano. Getting good tone on any course, double or single, was initially much easier for me with thumb-under- but now that TO is comfortable the archlute d-minor lute sound clearer cleaner played TO. The 6-course lute- single first- (one Marco recercar on Vimeo) will always be a thumb-under instrument. I do not now own a nine-course lute, that is number one on my cosmic wish-list. I appologize for the disparate nature of my remarks. Best wishes Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
And one more thought- I would bet that a lot of the historic lute players- after the more universal use of the doubled first- reverted to a single by simply letting letting nature take its course. One of the strings pops- but the player just keeps on going. And going. Hopkinson Smith told me at a workshop that that was how he came to use only a single first on his vihuela. If I remember correctly, Dan Larson saw wear marks on the bridge consistent with a single first when he carefully examined the Chambure artifact in Paris. He also saw wear evidence indicating octaves beginning at the 4th course. I might also add that low tension makes clean playing of any double course significantly more difficult with synthetics than with gut. I currently have my d-minor Baroque lute lightly strung according to Toyohiko's recommended tensions- but with synthetics, and it is more difficult to play everything cleanly- I should gut the thing or crank up the tension a little. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear David and All, On the double/single second: The painting which comes immediately to mind is the anonynous French(?) one in the Kunsthalle at Hamburg, with red bass strings. It was reproduced on the cover of Early Music a few years ago. In surviving instruments there is the ivory 11c in the VA in London (1125-1869) - the one with the 9-rib back and elaborate neck veneer. The Schele 13c lute in Nuremberg, dated 1727 (?converted from 11c?). Of course we have so few surviving 11c lutes of any kind, probably iconography is a happier hunting ground. How about the engraving in the Rhetorique des Dieux? I can't be sure of the number of strings or pegs. Best wishes, Martin David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. .. iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. I had no idea. Can you point us to some? And are there 11-course instruments left with a double second, or even double first course? Or converted-to-13-course lutes that show that there has been originally a double second? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Ooops, Just a further clarification: I've never seen an 11 or 13c lute with a double first. Mace is the only late source for it, and perhaps it was just him being old-fashioned. It seems likely that a single 2nd was the result of converting a 10c lute into 11c. The easy way to do the conversion is to add a treble rider to get an extra peg and make the second course single, so you don't have to rebuild the pegbox. All you have to do then is extend the bridge and nut by one more course on the bass side; you end up with an overhanging 11th course but that's OK because you don't want to finger it anyway. When 11c lutes were made anew there would have been no reason to have a single second, though once it had become common in converted lutes it may have persisted thereafter. Best wishes, Martin David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. .. iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. I had no idea. Can you point us to some? And are there 11-course instruments left with a double second, or even double first course? Or converted-to-13-course lutes that show that there has been originally a double second? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Jelma van Amersfoort jel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear lutenists, Can anyone shed some light on this: Why doe the Choc liuto attiorbato in the Victoria and Albert Museum have 14 pegs on the first peghead? Hoi Jelma Double first course. Have a look at all the wonderfull Sellas c attiorbatos in the Cité de la Musique in Paris, so many have a double first course. Even my small archlute has a double first. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Yup-- The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute performance. Along with the double course theorbos. The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch, seamless transition among the top three courses. dt At 04:47 AM 12/19/2008, you wrote: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Jelma van Amersfoort jel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear lutenists, Can anyone shed some light on this: Why doe the Choc liuto attiorbato in the Victoria and Albert Museum have 14 pegs on the first peghead? Hoi Jelma Double first course. Have a look at all the wonderfull Sellas c attiorbatos in the Cité de la Musique in Paris, so many have a double first course. Even my small archlute has a double first. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Slightly lower pitch, and slightly lower tension; it's two strings now and the whole course should feel (and sound) balanced vis-a-vis the other courses. It need not have literally the same tension as the second course; but the feel of balance should be a steady increase from bass to treble at a certain point- 4th or 3rd course, usually- not a sudden jump in tension. I have been bothered by the double-first issue for many years, and it was not until I had an instrument built on commission to a historic design that I could take advantage of the doubled first. Well worth the effort- one should at least try it; one can always remove a string. -Dan Yup-- The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute performance. Along with the double course theorbos. The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch, seamless transition among the top three courses. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
On lutes, would it only have been nine course lutes that had this double first course (as the one Martin Shepherd recorded with recently, and Dowland is said to have played), or were 10c, or even some 11c lutes strung that way (even if there are no extant ones, can we be sure, they just did not survive, or is there some reference to them as dated or old fashioned)? If I remember correctly, Martin was recently playing 10c Jacques Gautier music with his 9c, so I suppose the ninth course is tuned to C-10, and has to be stopped down to obtain the D-9? Can most transitional 10c lute music be played on such a lute, a little like playing 8c lute music on a 7c lute, with the 7c tuned to D (as I usually do)? Would this work well with most transitional music (Cuthbert Hely, for example who seems to have been a contemporary of Jacques), or might there be a sort of break off point, where the double top or the 9c would be more incongruous? Anthony Le 19 déc. 08 à 23:06, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Slightly lower pitch, and slightly lower tension; it's two strings now and the whole course should feel (and sound) balanced vis-a-vis the other courses. It need not have literally the same tension as the second course; but the feel of balance should be a steady increase from bass to treble at a certain point- 4th or 3rd course, usually- not a sudden jump in tension. I have been bothered by the double-first issue for many years, and it was not until I had an instrument built on commission to a historic design that I could take advantage of the doubled first. Well worth the effort- one should at least try it; one can always remove a string. -Dan Yup-- The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute performance. Along with the double course theorbos. The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch, seamless transition among the top three courses. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. Three of our most popular 7c lutes from the Venere workshop, the 44cm C39, the 58.7cm lute in Bologna, and the 66.8cm C36, have their original bridges and pegboxes and a double top course. The double top course seems to have been relatively rare on 6c lutes, and by the late 17th C the author of the Burwell tutor explains the single 2nd on the 11c course by claiming that they could hardly ever find two strings to agree - a problem which would have been even more acute for a first course. But I think it is fairly certain that the single 2nd originated as a conversion feature (from 10c to 11c), and iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. On 9 vs 10 courses - it's surprising how much music there seems to be for 9c, and often in MS sources you can see where the piece has been written for 9c, then adapted for 10. Just for the record, the pieces by John Sturt and Jacques Gaultier used only 9 courses, no need to stop any basses to get extra notes, though the source (ML) is one which is fairly consistently notated for 10. For these pieces, the 8th is Eb and the 9th Bb (nominal G tuning) - a very practical tuning which makes the keys of Eb and Bb quite accessible. Another nice 9c tuning is 8th to Eb and 9th to C, which is good for pieces in C minor. Of course you can't play all 10c music on a 9c lute, but there's lots of possibilities. Vallet indicates for each piece how many courses it needs, anything from 7 to 10. Perhaps the main disadvantage of the 9c lute is that you need to do more retuning of two or more of the basses for different keys, whereas on the 10c your main dilemma is whether to have the 8th at E or Eb. Gut basses are easier to retune than wound ones, by the way... Best wishes, Martin Anthony Hind wrote: On lutes, would it only have been nine course lutes that had this double first course (as the one Martin Shepherd recorded with recently, and Dowland is said to have played), or were 10c, or even some 11c lutes strung that way (even if there are no extant ones, can we be sure, they just did not survive, or is there some reference to them as dated or old fashioned)? If I remember correctly, Martin was recently playing 10c Jacques Gautier music with his 9c, so I suppose the ninth course is tuned to C-10, and has to be stopped down to obtain the D-9? Can most transitional 10c lute music be played on such a lute, a little like playing 8c lute music on a 7c lute, with the 7c tuned to D (as I usually do)? Would this work well with most transitional music (Cuthbert Hely, for example who seems to have been a contemporary of Jacques), or might there be a sort of break off point, where the double top or the 9c would be more incongruous? Anthony Le 19 déc. 08 à 23:06, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Slightly lower pitch, and slightly lower tension; it's two strings now and the whole course should feel (and sound) balanced vis-a-vis the other courses. It need not have literally the same tension as the second course; but the feel of balance should be a steady increase from bass to treble at a certain point- 4th or 3rd course, usually- not a sudden jump in tension. I have been bothered by the double-first issue for many years, and it was not until I had an instrument built on commission to a historic design that I could take advantage of the doubled first. Well worth the effort- one should at least try it; one can always remove a string. -Dan Yup-- The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute performance. Along with the double course theorbos. The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch, seamless transition among the top three courses. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. .. iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. I had no idea. Can you point us to some? And are there 11-course instruments left with a double second, or even double first course? Or converted-to-13-course lutes that show that there has been originally a double second? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
I think relativeley rare is about right, maybe medium rare. There are enough examples that we know that there was a presence, and not truly rare, but not enough examples to think in terms of either or. Some very interseting iconography for earlier instruments as well. It is a terrific sound, and in some sense is easier, because you can strike the courses pretty close to the same way. I also think that from a technique point of view, that the double top course prevents some of the more moderm styles od striking the string from creeping in. dt At 03:24 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. Three of our most popular 7c lutes from the Venere workshop, the 44cm C39, the 58.7cm lute in Bologna, and the 66.8cm C36, have their original bridges and pegboxes and a double top course. The double top course seems to have been relatively rare on 6c lutes, and by the late 17th C the author of the Burwell tutor explains the single 2nd on the 11c course by claiming that they could hardly ever find two strings to agree - a problem which would have been even more acute for a first course. But I think it is fairly certain that the single 2nd originated as a conversion feature (from 10c to 11c), and iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. On 9 vs 10 courses - it's surprising how much music there seems to be for 9c, and often in MS sources you can see where the piece has been written for 9c, then adapted for 10. Just for the record, the pieces by John Sturt and Jacques Gaultier used only 9 courses, no need to stop any basses to get extra notes, though the source (ML) is one which is fairly consistently notated for 10. For these pieces, the 8th is Eb and the 9th Bb (nominal G tuning) - a very practical tuning which makes the keys of Eb and Bb quite accessible. Another nice 9c tuning is 8th to Eb and 9th to C, which is good for pieces in C minor. Of course you can't play all 10c music on a 9c lute, but there's lots of possibilities. Vallet indicates for each piece how many courses it needs, anything from 7 to 10. Perhaps the main disadvantage of the 9c lute is that you need to do more retuning of two or more of the basses for different keys, whereas on the 10c your main dilemma is whether to have the 8th at E or Eb. Gut basses are easier to retune than wound ones, by the way... Best wishes, Martin Anthony Hind wrote: On lutes, would it only have been nine course lutes that had this double first course (as the one Martin Shepherd recorded with recently, and Dowland is said to have played), or were 10c, or even some 11c lutes strung that way (even if there are no extant ones, can we be sure, they just did not survive, or is there some reference to them as dated or old fashioned)? If I remember correctly, Martin was recently playing 10c Jacques Gautier music with his 9c, so I suppose the ninth course is tuned to C-10, and has to be stopped down to obtain the D-9? Can most transitional 10c lute music be played on such a lute, a little like playing 8c lute music on a 7c lute, with the 7c tuned to D (as I usually do)? Would this work well with most transitional music (Cuthbert Hely, for example who seems to have been a contemporary of Jacques), or might there be a sort of break off point, where the double top or the 9c would be more incongruous? Anthony Le 19 déc. 08 à 23:06, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Slightly lower pitch, and slightly lower tension; it's two strings now and the whole course should feel (and sound) balanced vis-a-vis the other courses. It need not have literally the same tension as the second course; but the feel of balance should be a steady increase from bass to treble at a certain point- 4th or 3rd course, usually- not a sudden jump in tension. I have been bothered by the double-first issue for many years, and it was not until I had an instrument built on commission to a historic design that I could take advantage of the doubled first. Well worth the effort- one should at least try it; one can always remove a string. -Dan Yup-- The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute performance. Along with the double course theorbos. The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch, seamless transition among the top three courses. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Everything BECOMES easier once you master that doubled first- (speaking only of my own experience, of course). Everything I knew about good tone production had to be enhanced ten fold in order to strike that first course cleanly, solidly, gently-but-firmly (or the other way around?) because I had got very used to hitting a single string with one kind or touch, or feel, and immediately altering the touch however slightly when moving to the second course. There's a reason why that 1st course is named chanterelle- there it is, right on top, and when you suddenly have TWO prima donnas having to sing in perfect unison the whole game tightens up. Very well worth it, however- much less splatting of carelessly struck strings anywhere on the lute, cleaner general sound. I find that (so far) I can switch between the doubled 1st on one instrument and singles pretty easily now. --Dan It is a terrific sound, and in some sense is easier, because you can strike the courses pretty close to the same way. I also think that from a technique point of view, that the double top course prevents some of the more moderm styles od striking the string from creeping in. dt At 03:24 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. Three of our most popular 7c lutes from the Venere workshop, the 44cm C39, the 58.7cm lute in Bologna, and the 66.8cm C36, have their original bridges and pegboxes and a double top course. The double top course seems to have been relatively rare on 6c lutes, and by the late 17th C the author of the Burwell tutor explains the single 2nd on the 11c course by claiming that they could hardly ever find two strings to agree - a problem which would have been even more acute for a first course. But I think it is fairly certain that the single 2nd originated as a conversion feature (from 10c to 11c), and iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
