[LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c

[Sean Smith]

   I think we're coming to the end of this thread and I'd like to thank
   everyone for their myriad facts and insights.
   best wishes, Sean

   On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 7:47 AM MJ Hodgson <[1]mjhodg...@hotmail.co.uk>
   wrote:

Movable type was indeed a factor - though some printers also
 employed a
type face with the lines incorporated.
The point is that writing tablature ms on lines was a common
 general
practice earlier in the sixteenth century and then, of course,
 became
general after the opening decades of the seventeenth.

 __
From: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Tristan
 von
Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Sent: 04 August 2020 15:22
To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c
It seems to me that moveable type doesn't seem to have anything
 to do
with the decision.
The types with the line already included (as in scores) are
 on-line
(Phalèse).
If you print in two steps with the lines first then the letters,
above-line seems more common, maybe easier to align.
On 04.08.20 09:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>  Dear Martin,
>  I agree that the supposed low case 'r' is merely an
 earlier way
of
>  writing 'c'.   However I'm not one with you on writing
 tablature
letters
>  in the spaces rather than on the lines.
>  Writing on the lines is generally the earlier form and,
 indeed,
>  persisted through to the instrument's decline: the
 practice of
setting
>  the letters in the spaces seems to have appeared when
 movable
type was
>  employed (though not universally).
>  In practice I far prefer the more common historical
 practice
(almost
>  universal from the seventeenth century for engraved music
 as well
as
>  ms)) of writing on the lines - a big advantage is that
 even with
quite
>  a narrow system the letters can still be reasonably large
 by
extending
>  into the neighboring lines without interfering with ease
 of
recognition
>  of the 'home' line. Tablature letter 'f' is a good
 example.
>  regards
>  Martyn
>
>  On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 07:36:56 BST, Martin Shepherd
>  <[7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
>  The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute
 song
prints as
>  well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of
 writing
"c".
>  My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on
 the
lines
>  rather than between them - a habit which seems to have
 become
quite
>  common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to
 open
up a
>  few
>  more worms, I find French tablature very convenient
 because
(although I
>  read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings,
 which
can
>  get
>  very confusing in Italian tab.
>  M
>  On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote:
>  > -- Forwarded message -
>  > From: Tristan von Neumann
 <[1][1][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>  > Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM
>  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
>  > To: [2][2][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3][3][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>  > Ah yes. I forgot about those.
>  > I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately
 trying
to make
>  > things unreadable.
>  > Morlaye is the best imho.
>  > On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote:
>  > > Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland ÃÆ
 ¢Varietie of
lute
>  lessons'
>  > and Barley's ÃÆ ¢New book of tablature' both have ÃÆ
 ¢r' for
ÃÆ ¢c'
>  although the
>  > latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect
 that the
>  

[LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c

[MJ Hodgson]

   Movable type was indeed a factor - though some printers also employed a
   type face with the lines incorporated.

   The point is that writing tablature ms on lines was a common general
   practice earlier in the sixteenth century and then, of course, became
   general after the opening decades of the seventeenth.
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Tristan von
   Neumann 
   Sent: 04 August 2020 15:22
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c

   It seems to me that moveable type doesn't seem to have anything to do
   with the decision.
   The types with the line already included (as in scores) are on-line
   (Phalèse).
   If you print in two steps with the lines first then the letters,
   above-line seems more common, maybe easier to align.
   On 04.08.20 09:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > Dear Martin,
   > I agree that the supposed low case 'r' is merely an earlier way
   of
   > writing 'c'.  However I'm not one with you on writing tablature
   letters
   > in the spaces rather than on the lines.
   > Writing on the lines is generally the earlier form and, indeed,
   > persisted through to the instrument's decline: the practice of
   setting
   > the letters in the spaces seems to have appeared when movable
   type was
   > employed (though not universally).
   > In practice I far prefer the more common historical practice
   (almost
   > universal from the seventeenth century for engraved music as well
   as
   > ms)) of writing on the lines - a big advantage is that even with
   quite
   > a narrow system the letters can still be reasonably large by
   extending
   > into the neighboring lines without interfering with ease of
   recognition
   > of the 'home' line. Tablature letter 'f' is a good example.
   > regards
   > Martyn
   >
   > On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 07:36:56 BST, Martin Shepherd
   >  wrote:
   > The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song
   prints as
   > well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of writing
   "c".
   > My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on the
   lines
   > rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become
   quite
   > common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to open
   up a
   > few
   > more worms, I find French tablature very convenient because
   (although I
   > read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings, which
   can
   > get
   > very confusing in Italian tab.
   > M
   > On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote:
   > >-- Forwarded message -
   > >From: Tristan von Neumann <[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   > >Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM
   > >Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
   > >To: [2][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > >Ah yes. I forgot about those.
   > >I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately trying
   to make
   > >things unreadable.
   > >Morlaye is the best imho.
   > >On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote:
   > >> Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland à ¢Varietie of
   lute
   > lessons'
   > >and Barley's à ¢New book of tablature' both have à ¢r' for
   Ã ¢c'
   > although the
   > >latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect that the
   > Varietie of
   > >lute lessons may have had an undue influence in modern times
   > because it
   > >was the first facsimile that many of us who were involved in
   lute
   > music
   > >in those days owned in the Scott edition.
   > >> Best wishes, Denys
   > >>
   > >> Sent from my iPhone
   > >>
   > >>> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann
   > ><[4][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   > >>>
   > >>> Good question Sean...
   > >>>
   > >>> I think there's no real development in this.
   > >>>
   > >>> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica uses
   > "on-line"
   > >fonts,
   > >>> and "c".
   > >>>
   >

[LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c

[Tristan von Neumann]

It seems to me that moveable type doesn't seem to have anything to do
with the decision.

The types with the line already included (as in scores) are on-line
(Phalèse).

If you print in two steps with the lines first then the letters,
above-line seems more common, maybe easier to align.



On 04.08.20 09:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Dear Martin,
I agree that the supposed low case 'r' is merely an earlier way of
writing 'c'.  However I'm not one with you on writing tablature letters
in the spaces rather than on the lines.
Writing on the lines is generally the earlier form and, indeed,
persisted through to the instrument's decline: the practice of setting
the letters in the spaces seems to have appeared when movable type was
employed (though not universally).
In practice I far prefer the more common historical practice (almost
universal from the seventeenth century for engraved music as well as
ms)) of writing on the lines - a big advantage is that even with quite
a narrow system the letters can still be reasonably large by extending
into the neighboring lines without interfering with ease of recognition
of the 'home' line. Tablature letter 'f' is a good example.
regards
Martyn

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 07:36:56 BST, Martin Shepherd
 wrote:
The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song prints as
well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of writing "c".
My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on the lines
rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become quite
common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to open up a
few
more worms, I find French tablature very convenient because (although I
read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings, which can
get
very confusing in Italian tab.
M
On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote:
>-- Forwarded message -
>From: Tristan von Neumann <[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
>To: [2][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Ah yes. I forgot about those.
>I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately trying to make
>things unreadable.
>Morlaye is the best imho.
>On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote:
>> Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland à ¢Varietie of lute
lessons'
>and Barley's à ¢New book of tablature' both have à ¢r' for à ¢c'
although the
>latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect that the
Varietie of
>lute lessons may have had an undue influence in modern times
because it
>was the first facsimile that many of us who were involved in lute
music
>in those days owned in the Scott edition.
>> Best wishes, Denys
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann
><[4][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good question Sean...
>>>
>>> I think there's no real development in this.
>>>
>>> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica uses
"on-line"
>fonts,
>>> and "c".
>>>
>>> This is very annoying sometimes if you want to play from the
>facsimile...
>>>
>>> In manuscripts, Marsh Lute Book uses c, it's often very
confusing
>next
>>> to the e.
>>>
>>> French "above line" prints from earlier decades (Morlaye, Le
Roy)
>also
>>> use c but I find those prints very readable.
>>>
>>> I don't recall "r" in prints, but maybe I missed some.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 04.08.20 00:56, Sean Smith wrote:
>>>>  Dear all,
>>>>  There's a long tradition of scribing the cipher 'r' in
place
>of 'c' in
>>>>  manuscripts of lute tablature. It's quick and easy and
serves
>to
>>>>  differentiate a 'c' from an 'e'. My question is, did this
>carry over
>>>>  into historic printed tablatures with standardized
typefaces?
>Can
>>>>  anyone suggest examples? Lute, guitar, mandora, etc?
>>>>  I don't recall any in Renaissance prints--tho I could
easily
>be
>>>>  wrong--but I know I don't have enough experience with
baroque
>>>>  tablatures!
>>>>  Tia, Sean
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> [5][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>Actually, the letter that looks like an "r" is actually a "c" in
>English secretary hand. That's probably why the "r" is fe

[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Steve Acklin]

Interesting article about Alpine tonewood. 


https://www.thestrad.com/news/saving-stradivaris-forests-effort-to-harvest-precious-tonewoods-felled-in-storms/8460.article
 



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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[G. C.]

   Thanks Ron, for reminding me of Coelho's site. There is SO much erudite
   and relevant material there!

   G.


   --


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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

..only after a couple of schnaps ! :-)
Jean-Marie

--
 
>..and in German tablature :)



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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Martin Shepherd]

..and in German tablature :)

On 11/12/2018 20:33, Arto Wikla wrote:

I thought every serious lutenist can sing the tabulature lines.

sincerely

Arto

On 11/12/18 21:25, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

What about those of us who compose in tabulature?

I also know a few people who can sing off the tab.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Dec 11, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:

Modern tablatures appear to be a substitute
   for reading music in standard notation and seem to require aural
   familiarity with the intabulated piece.




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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Arto Wikla]

I thought every serious lutenist can sing the tabulature lines.

sincerely

Arto

On 11/12/18 21:25, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

What about those of us who compose in tabulature?

I also know a few people who can sing off the tab.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Dec 11, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:

Modern tablatures appear to be a substitute
   for reading music in standard notation and seem to require aural
   familiarity with the intabulated piece.




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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[r . turovsky]

What about those of us who compose in tabulature?

I also know a few people who can sing off the tab.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Dec 11, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Modern tablatures appear to be a substitute
>   for reading music in standard notation and seem to require aural
>   familiarity with the intabulated piece.



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[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Alain Veylit]

Many thanks Goran for your kind words. Tablature is insufficiently 
recognized as the first form of computer code: converting music to 
numbers was done long before DVDs came about, after all. I am really 
glad though that tablature never made it to the compression stage... 
Although you could argue that German tab came close to that. I read 
somewhere it was a good format to save paper because it takes relatively 
less space. Could it be the famed and elusive MP1 format??



On 12/11/18 8:31 AM, G. C. wrote:

  Personally I first learned modern guitar tablature, switched to
  French
  tab on the lute, then learned Italian tablature, and finally wrote a
  piece of software to convert Neapolitan tab to Spanish, Italian
  and/or
  French.

And how great that you did Alain! I'm sure, we are ALL extremely
thankful for your gargantuan work with tablature conversion!

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[LUTE] Re: tablature d'angelique

[Mathias Rösel]

Sorry, list --

Alain,
You may want to have a look to your junk folder, as your machine seems to 
classify my mails as junk.
Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: tablature d'angelique

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Alain,

That looks terrific! Yes, that's it! Great!

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Montag, 29. Mai 2017 21:44
An: Mathias Rösel; 'Lute net'
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: tablature d'angelique

See http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/showcase/preview/232 for Fandango 
support of Angelique tablature - this is based on the Monin book (the first 
piece...). If someone needs the other styles of diapason notation for the 
Angelique, they should ask for it specifically... The Angelique implementation 
will not be available until the next release of the software at some point 
within the coming 10 days. Matthias, this could give you a little bit of time 
to ask for adjustments - I included the facsimile of the transcribed piece in 
the PDF.

Happy memorial day,

Alain


On 05/27/2017 10:11 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> Hi Alain,
>
> Yes, there are two major manuscript sources and one print available online.
> The manuscript sources are:nn
>
> 1. The anonymous tablature for the angélique A 3.329, preserved in the 
> Moravian museum in Brno (Smetanova 14, 602 00 Brno):
> http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/index.php?envLang=en#search 
> (search word: tabulatura angeliku)
>
> 2. Marguerite Monin's lute book. Folios 1r to 23v contain music for the 
> angélique.
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503663g
>
> The print is Jakob Kremberg's Musicalische Gemüths-Ergötzung (Dresde, 1689): 
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Musicalische_Gem%C3%BCths-Erg%C3%B6tzung_(Kremberg,_Jakob)
>  – with his exceptional characters for the bass courses.
>
> Mathias
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im 
> Auftrag von Alain Veylit
> Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 18:31
> An: 'Lute net'
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
>
> Thank you Mathias for this useful detail,
>
> Except for the 17th string, it should be fairly easy to implement - one last 
> request if you can, do you happen to have a link handy to a digital facsimile 
> of angelique tablature? If not, I'll do my own digging, but you are more 
> knowledgeable than I am and might pick a better sample for checking purposes.
>
> Alain
>
>
> On 05/27/2017 03:28 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>> Hi Alain,
>> the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the fretboard and 
>> six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
>>
>> 1st = e5
>> 2nd = d5
>> 3rd = c5
>> 4th = b4
>> 5th = a4
>> 6th = g4
>> 7th = f4
>> 8th = e4
>> 9th = d4
>> 10th = c4
>> 11th = b3
>> 12th = a3
>> 13th = g3
>> 14th = f3
>> 15th = e3
>> 16th = c3
>>
>> The strings are retuned as from the 4th to the 15th courses according to 
>> key. The 16th string is sometimes retuned to D or Bb respectively, according 
>> to key, but more often than not stays at C.
>>
>> The characters for the first six courses are the same as in lute tablature. 
>> Angélique tablature has six lines and rhythm signs just like baroque lute 
>> tablature. The characters for the courses below the staff are as follows:
>>
>> 7th = a
>> 8th = _a_ (underlined)
>> 9th = /a
>> 10th = //a
>> 11th = ///a
>> 12th = a
>> 13th = /a
>> 14th = 4
>> 15th = 5
>> 16th = 6
>>
>> The 7th to 10th courses, too, are frequently fretted up to the 4th fret, so 
>> characters a to e are required for them. The 11th to 16th courses are not 
>> fretted.
>>
>> One single manuscript (Schwerin 640) requires a 17th string so that one may 
>> have D and C at the same time. That manuscript shows the Arabic numerals 7 
>> to 17 for the bass courses below the staff instead of lute tablature 
>> characters.
>>
>> Another exceptional source (Jakob Kremberg, 40 airs, Dresde 1689) shows the 
>> following characters for the bass courses below the staff:
>>
>> 7th = a
>> 8th = _a_ (underlined)
>> 9th = /a
>> 10th = //a
>> 11th = ///a
>> 12th = 4
>> 13th = 5
>> 14th = 6
>> 15th = 7
>> 16th = 8
>>
>> Mathias
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>> Von: Alain Veylit [mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
>> An: Mathias Rösel
>> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
>>
>> Hi Mathias,
>>
>> Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the 
>> angelique and what is the meaning of the under

[LUTE] Re: tablature d'angelique

[Alain Veylit]

See http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/showcase/preview/232 for 
Fandango support of Angelique tablature - this is based on the Monin 
book (the first piece...). If someone needs the other styles of diapason 
notation for the Angelique, they should ask for it specifically... The 
Angelique implementation will not be available until the next release of 
the software at some point within the coming 10 days. Matthias, this 
could give you a little bit of time to ask for adjustments - I included 
the facsimile of the transcribed piece in the PDF.


Happy memorial day,

Alain


On 05/27/2017 10:11 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Hi Alain,

Yes, there are two major manuscript sources and one print available online.
The manuscript sources are:nn

1. The anonymous tablature for the angélique A 3.329, preserved in the Moravian 
museum in Brno (Smetanova 14, 602 00 Brno):
http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/index.php?envLang=en#search (search word: 
tabulatura angeliku)

2. Marguerite Monin's lute book. Folios 1r to 23v contain music for the 
angélique.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503663g

The print is Jakob Kremberg's Musicalische Gemüths-Ergötzung (Dresde, 1689): 
http://imslp.org/wiki/Musicalische_Gem%C3%BCths-Erg%C3%B6tzung_(Kremberg,_Jakob)
 – with his exceptional characters for the bass courses.

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 18:31
An: 'Lute net'
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Thank you Mathias for this useful detail,

Except for the 17th string, it should be fairly easy to implement - one last 
request if you can, do you happen to have a link handy to a digital facsimile 
of angelique tablature? If not, I'll do my own digging, but you are more 
knowledgeable than I am and might pick a better sample for checking purposes.

Alain


On 05/27/2017 03:28 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Hi Alain,
the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the fretboard and 
six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:

1st = e5
2nd = d5
3rd = c5
4th = b4
5th = a4
6th = g4
7th = f4
8th = e4
9th = d4
10th = c4
11th = b3
12th = a3
13th = g3
14th = f3
15th = e3
16th = c3

The strings are retuned as from the 4th to the 15th courses according to key. 
The 16th string is sometimes retuned to D or Bb respectively, according to key, 
but more often than not stays at C.

The characters for the first six courses are the same as in lute tablature. 
Angélique tablature has six lines and rhythm signs just like baroque lute 
tablature. The characters for the courses below the staff are as follows:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = a
13th = /a
14th = 4
15th = 5
16th = 6

The 7th to 10th courses, too, are frequently fretted up to the 4th fret, so 
characters a to e are required for them. The 11th to 16th courses are not 
fretted.

One single manuscript (Schwerin 640) requires a 17th string so that one may 
have D and C at the same time. That manuscript shows the Arabic numerals 7 to 
17 for the bass courses below the staff instead of lute tablature characters.

Another exceptional source (Jakob Kremberg, 40 airs, Dresde 1689) shows the 
following characters for the bass courses below the staff:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = 4
13th = 5
14th = 6
15th = 7
16th = 8

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alain Veylit [mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
An: Mathias Rösel
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Hi Mathias,

Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the angelique and 
what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a?  I would have jumped to the 
conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4"
diapason in lute tablature, but you give 5 slashes (not 4): /a.
Sorry for my ignorance, I hope you can help me fill up the gaps.

I have seen some facsimiles of music for the angelique, but thought it was very 
much the same as tablature for lute and did not really research that topic 
further.

Alain



On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers, as it is a 
pitch notation.

It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired
tablature for the angélique (see
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html

Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional

characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
Auftrag von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Mai 2017 20:20
An: Lute net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

I started implementing keyboard tablature in my software Fandango,
but the need is so little and editing so complicated that I did not
really compl

[LUTE] Re: Tablature software

[Alain]

Hi everyone,
I would like to invite all interested people  to experiment with the new 
incarnation of my tablature and notation software, DjangoTab. I posted a 
short video on the site so you can get an idea of the functions before 
getting further into the process. The demo version is fully functional 
for the coming month and you are invited to contribute your comments, 
needs and ideas. To do that you'll have to create an account on the 
site, otherwise you can just download the installer.

See you at: http://django.musickshandmade.com/demo!
Alain



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature source I.D.

[Leonard Williams]

Reply to my own plea for help:
Found it!  The music in question was photocopies from my Lute News No. 
60
Music Supplement.

Cheers!



On 1/4/14, 5:25 PM, "Leonard Williams"  wrote:

>Tab Archivists:
>   I¹m looking at a couple of print-outs of tab for which I¹m having 
> trouble
>finding a source.  The format looks like a Lute Society supplement.  These
>are dance pieces attributed to ³A.F.², including a ³Galliarda² which is a
>setting of a Dowland piece.  Where did I get these pages??
>   Thanks for patiently helping a sloppy librarian!
>
>Best Regards for the New Year,
>Leonard Williams
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[sterling price]

   Regarding hand written music---
   If given a choice, I would always prefer hand written tab to computer
   tab, especially with baroque music. I am baffled why anyone would
   choose computer over original, when the original is so clear and
   beautiful. When the original is not legible that is different. The
   problem I have with computer tab is visual, as well as the carefully
   organized page turns of the original are often disregarded. Also it
   seems that many errors crop up.
   As lute players it seems we like things to be as original as possible.
   --Sterling
   On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:02 PM, Tobiah  wrote:
   On 11/19/2013 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:
   > Dear all,
   >
   > I understand wholeheartedly the need for a good tool for tabulature
   publishing, but how beautiful are many of the original
   > tabulatures! And they all - also those that are not so beautiful -
   are very personal! So why not write also nowadays by your own
   > hand? No limitations in the available character set or markings of
   ornaments, ties, and what so ever extra information!
   In my case, if I go to the trouble of writing down musical information,
   I want to be able to easily get that information into a computer for
   various reasons.  I want to hear a performance of the piece, and to
   easily change to the grand staff for instance.
   > friendly,
   >
   > Arto
   >
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Tobiah]

On 11/19/2013 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:

Dear all,

I understand wholeheartedly the need for a good tool for tabulature publishing, 
but how beautiful are many of the original
tabulatures! And they all - also those that are not so beautiful - are very 
personal! So why not write also nowadays by your own
hand? No limitations in the available character set or markings of ornaments, 
ties, and what so ever extra information!


In my case, if I go to the trouble of writing down musical information,
I want to be able to easily get that information into a computer for
various reasons.  I want to hear a performance of the piece, and to
easily change to the grand staff for instance.


friendly,

Arto





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Arto Wikla]

Dear all,

I understand wholeheartedly the need for a good tool for tabulature 
publishing, but how beautiful are many of the original tabulatures! And 
they all - also those that are not so beautiful - are very personal! So 
why not write also nowadays by your own hand? No limitations in the 
available character set or markings of ornaments, ties, and what so ever 
extra information!


friendly,

Arto

On 19/11/13 21:23, Nancy Carlin wrote:
There are a lot of really nice things about Fronimo, but when you get 
to baroque music there are some ornament signs and right hand symbols 
that are not available.  I have gotten around this by importing a pdf 
into Photoshop and adding what I needed.


Has anyone tried Paul Beier's new tab program?  If so do you like in? 
What works well in that program?

Nancy



I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering if
there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.

I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in 
staff

notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using
Finale.

I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in tablature.
Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014). But I
am not sure what would be most widely accepted style.

I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not 
impressed
with any of them. There has been several publish since those days 
which I

have not seen.

Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any 
examples

of current works. I know that each player has his/her own style which
suits them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can 
please
some people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the 
people
all of the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and 
became

used to playing from them - but this just my way.

I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was
the reason for your choice.

Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of the
score on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition,
probably in parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of publishing
in, say, four volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy handling -
any comments on this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature only (there
will be the complete study edition should anyone be interested) or
tablature plus staff in one volume?

If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or 
vice

versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely not
together on one page!.

Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but 
also

able to be playable from the publication.


--

  Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
Musicologist and Independent Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
Tigne' Street,
Sliema,
SLM3174,
MALTA
Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.



--


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Nancy Carlin]

There are a lot of really nice things about Fronimo, but when you get to 
baroque music there are some ornament signs and right hand symbols that 
are not available.  I have gotten around this by importing a pdf into 
Photoshop and adding what I needed.


Has anyone tried Paul Beier's new tab program?  If so do you like in? 
What works well in that program?

Nancy



I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering if
there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.

I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in staff
notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using
Finale.

I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in tablature.
Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014). But I
am not sure what would be most widely accepted style.

I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not impressed
with any of them. There has been several publish since those days which I
have not seen.

Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any examples
of current works. I know that each player has his/her own style which
suits them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can please
some people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the people
all of the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and became
used to playing from them - but this just my way.

I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was
the reason for your choice.

Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of the
score on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition,
probably in parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of publishing
in, say, four volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy handling -
any comments on this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature only (there
will be the complete study edition should anyone be interested) or
tablature plus staff in one volume?

If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or vice
versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely not
together on one page!.

Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but also
able to be playable from the publication.


--

  Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
Musicologist and Independent Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
Tigne' Street,
Sliema,
SLM3174,
MALTA
Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.



--


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--
Nancy Carlin
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

PO Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524
USA
925 / 686-5800

www.groundsanddivisions.info
www.nancycarlinassociates.com

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Could you not simply publish a facsimile edition of the original source
   and so avoid subjective input and if anyone wishes they could then make
   their own tablature transcription to suit personal preferences.
   MH
   On Tue, 11/19/13, Anthony Hart <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
   Subject: [LUTE] Tablature for publication
   To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
   I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering
   if
   there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.
   I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in
   staff
   notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am
   using Finale.
   I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in
   tablature. Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version
   2014). But I am not sure what would be most widely accepted style.
   I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not
   impressed with any of them. There has been several publish since those
   days which I have not seen.
   Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style,
   any examples of current works. I know that each player has his/her own
   style which suits them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion (
   You can please some people some of the time but it is impossible to
   please
   all the people all of the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature
   by
   hand and became used to playing from them - but this just my way.
   I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was
   the reason for your choice. Another question: I propose a study edition
   which will consist of the score on staff notation and then publish as a
   performance
   edition, probably in parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking
   of publishing in, say, four volumes of six in a spiral bound form for
   easy
   handling - any comments on this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature
   only (there will be the complete study edition should anyone be
   interested) or tablature plus staff in one volume?
   If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or
   vice versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely
   not together on one page!.
   Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but
   also able to be playable from the publication.
   --
 Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
   Musicologist and Independent Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
   Tigne' Street,
   Sliema,
   SLM3174,
   MALTA
   Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Daniel F. Heiman]

One thing I forgot to mention is that Fronimo also has the capability to
import from a MIDI file (which can be output by most general-purpose music
programs) and use that to generate a good rough draft tablature.  You will
still want to adjust some of the fingering to minimize hand shifts (or
maximize them, if you want special effects).

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Daniel F. Heiman
Sent: 19 November, 2013 00:54
To: 'Anthony Hart'
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

Anthony:

Given the current state of the art, I would strongly encourage you to use
Fronimo to set the tablature version of your edition.   The cost of the
software is moderate given the amount of time and effort that has been put
into creating it.  Input of tablature is very easy and very quick.  The
fonts provided with the program are extremely legible and well-designed -
Francesco has worked hard to make the letters compatible so there are no
clashes between them when they appear on adjacent lines.   The fonts are
aesthetically pleasing, and there are styles based loosely on historical
examples from various traditions and tablature systems.  Rhythm signs are
included in forms that are specific for tablature.  Because the Fronimo
program is designed from the beginning for setting tablature, it includes
provisions for adding all the necessary ornament signs, many of which are
unique to tablature (and hence absent from general-purpose music software
like Finale). The current version (version 3) of Fronimo includes good
flexibility to define the spacing between rhythmic events and to adjust line
spacing, font size, positioning of titles and editorial notes, etc.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Anthony Hart
Sent: 18 November, 2013 23:27
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Tablature for publication

I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering if
there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.

I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in staff
notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using Finale.

I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in tablature.
Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014). But I am
not sure what would be most widely accepted style.

I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not impressed
with any of them. There has been several publish since those days which I
have not seen.

Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any examples of
current works. I know that each player has his/her own style which suits
them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can please some
people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the people all of
the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and became used to
playing from them - but this just my way.

I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was the
reason for your choice.

Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of the score
on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition, probably in
parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of publishing in, say, four
volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy handling - any comments on
this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature only (there will be the complete
study edition should anyone be interested) or tablature plus staff in one
volume?

If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or vice
versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely not together
on one page!.

Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but also
able to be playable from the publication.


--

 Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
Musicologist and Independent Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
Tigne' Street,
Sliema,
SLM3174,
MALTA
Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.



   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[William Brohinsky]

   My personal preference is to see the edition in the same form as the
   original manuscript, staff notation for staff notation, numerical tab
   for numerical, 'upside up' for upside up, etc (with the understanding
   that other than direction, I'm not inferring that numeric should or
   must be one or the other), french for french, etc. If a facsimile of
   the entire original is not provided, an Urtext modern-er notation is
   desirable.
   I'm also a radical on another aspect: if you're going to make the
   edition into tab with a good tab program like Fronimo (as opposed to a
   bad one like Sibelius or Finale), do it in the notation you are most
   comfortable with. Then, make copies and switch the notation type,
   checking scrupulously to ensure nothing has been damaged in the change.
   That way, you have them on hand to produce if someone requests a
   different tab style. There isn't that much extra work involved, the
   'fresh' passes in each new notation style is a better proof-reading
   trick than just going from the end backwards, and with modern print to
   order web-oriented printers, quite feasible. And, if you own your own
   large-format, double-sided printer, still no big problem.
   I'm interested to know whom you are considering as a printer/publisher.
   I think there have been discussions about preferred bindings. Spiral is
   ok, if the book is to exist on its own and never chance being crushed
   in a stack of hard-bound (or even soft-bound) books or carried about a
   lot. Once the spiral binding, plastic or wire, is crushed, the binding
   becomes an enemy. There are other aspects of spiral and GBC binding
   which are horrid, IMHO, but I'll leave it at that. It is hard to beat
   the kind of binding used now in the industry for most music, which
   usually just means fold-and-staple-the-crease. Good covers are a must.
   I like Christopher Wilke's idea of keeping the staff and tab notation
   in separate books, too. I hadn't thought of that (being mostly focused
   on trying to get people to go to the original notation or at least
   well-edited original notation), but it makes sense: page-for-page match
   up between the books isn't as important as placing page turns
   logically.
   Another thought here: Perhaps it would be worth considering an
   electronic version suitable for use on iPads or Android tablets (the
   software-of-choice for me on android has been MobileSheets) with
   bluetooth page-turner pedals. The keyboard players at Amherst Early
   Music's Workshops have been going more and more that way. How you'd go
   about protecting your IP and ensuring that you aren't pirated
   out-of-business, I don't know. I'm sure there is something in the minds
   of the makers of such software. (I've been ignoring that aspect because
   I mostly work with public-domain to public-domain things. While I
   respect and honor people who can do music for a living, I'm just not
   terribly interested in locking my own work up so much it can't be
   useful. I have no objection to others who do, we all must eat. So
   please don't take that as criticism of anyone else: it's just the
   excuse for why I don't know any more about it.)
   William (Ray) Brohinsky

   On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Anthony Hart
   <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was
 wondering if
 there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.
 I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in
 staff
 notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using
 Finale.
 I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in
 tablature.
 Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014).
 But I
 am not sure what would be most widely accepted style.
 I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not
 impressed
 with any of them. There has been several publish since those days
 which I
 have not seen.
 Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any
 examples
 of current works. I know that each player has his/her own style
 which
 suits them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can
 please
 some people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the
 people
 all of the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and
 became
 used to playing from them - but this just my way.
 I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what
 was
 the reason for your choice.
 Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of
 the
 score on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition,
 probably in parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of
 publishing
 in, say, four volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy
 handling -
 any comments on thi

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Christopher Wilke]

Hi Anthony,

I'm not sure there is any consensus at all regarding lute music in staff 
notation. As for my personal feelings, if the original notation is mensural 
staff notation, I would like a performing edition also in staff notation. For 
practical reasons, it is nice to play from a clean copy, but like many 
lutenists, I don't like an editor to make too many decisions for me, which 
would certainly be an issue with tab. I have read through late 18th century 
pieces like dalla Casa and Scotti and find the grand staff notation very 
disconcerting. My preference in a performing edition would be for one staff 
octave-transposed treble clef notation a la modern guitar. (I suspect those 
pieces are not actually solo works.) The only trouble is with deep basses, 
which can simply be marked with an "8" to indicate an octave lower. Again, just 
my opinion.

I understand that many people would like a tab version and it would make 
sense for you to provide one. It would be a good idea to publish the performing 
tab and staff versions in the same volume so that players using either source 
can consult the other. As others have mentioned, Fronimo works well and is easy 
to use.

Chris



Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


On Tue, 11/19/13, Anthony Hart  wrote:

 Subject: [LUTE] Tablature for publication
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
 
 I found a thread to this effect
 dating back to 2008 and was wondering if
 there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.
 
 I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas
 which are in staff
 notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I
 am using
 Finale.
 
 I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be
 in tablature.
 Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest
 version 2014). But I
 am not sure what would be most widely accepted style.
 
 I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am
 not impressed
 with any of them. There has been several publish since those
 days which I
 have not seen.
 
 Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style,
 any examples
 of current works. I know that each player has his/her own
 style which
 suits them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion (
 You can please
 some people some of the time but it is impossible to please
 all the people
 all of the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by
 hand and became
 used to playing from them - but this just my way.
 
 I would be grateful for your options. Those who have
 published what was
 the reason for your choice.
 
 Another question: I propose a study edition which will
 consist of the
 score on staff notation and then publish as a performance
 edition,
 probably in parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking
 of publishing
 in, say, four volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy
 handling -
 any comments on this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature
 only (there
 will be the complete study edition should anyone be
 interested) or
 tablature plus staff in one volume?
 
 If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff
 complete (or vice
 versa)or staff then tablature following each other
 (definitely not
 together on one page!.
 
 Still pondering which, I want the publication to be
 professional but also
 able to be playable from the publication.
 
 
 --
 
  Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
 Musicologist and Independent Researcher
 Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
 Tigne' Street,
 Sliema,
 SLM3174,
 MALTA
 Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
 
 
 
    --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[jean-michel Catherinot]

   I agree with Daniel. Regards
   Le Mardi 19 novembre 2013 7h57, Daniel F. Heiman
a ecrit :
   Anthony:
   Given the current state of the art, I would strongly encourage you to
   use
   Fronimo to set the tablature version of your edition.  The cost of the
   software is moderate given the amount of time and effort that has been
   put
   into creating it.  Input of tablature is very easy and very quick.  The
   fonts provided with the program are extremely legible and well-designed
   -
   Francesco has worked hard to make the letters compatible so there are
   no
   clashes between them when they appear on adjacent lines.  The fonts are
   aesthetically pleasing, and there are styles based loosely on
   historical
   examples from various traditions and tablature systems.  Rhythm signs
   are
   included in forms that are specific for tablature.  Because the Fronimo
   program is designed from the beginning for setting tablature, it
   includes
   provisions for adding all the necessary ornament signs, many of which
   are
   unique to tablature (and hence absent from general-purpose music
   software
   like Finale). The current version (version 3) of Fronimo includes good
   flexibility to define the spacing between rhythmic events and to adjust
   line
   spacing, font size, positioning of titles and editorial notes, etc.
   Regards,
   Daniel Heiman
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
   Of Anthony Hart
   Sent: 18 November, 2013 23:27
   To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Tablature for publication
   I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering
   if
   there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.
   I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in
   staff
   notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using
   Finale.
   I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in
   tablature.
   Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014). But
   I am
   not sure what would be most widely accepted style.
   I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not
   impressed
   with any of them. There has been several publish since those days which
   I
   have not seen.
   Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any
   examples of
   current works. I know that each player has his/her own style which
   suits
   them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can please
   some
   people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the people
   all of
   the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and became used
   to
   playing from them - but this just my way.
   I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was
   the
   reason for your choice.
   Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of the
   score
   on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition, probably
   in
   parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of publishing in, say,
   four
   volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy handling - any comments
   on
   this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature only (there will be the
   complete
   study edition should anyone be interested) or tablature plus staff in
   one
   volume?
   If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or
   vice
   versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely not
   together
   on one page!.
   Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but
   also
   able to be playable from the publication.
   --
   Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
   Musicologist and Independent Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
   Tigne' Street,
   Sliema,
   SLM3174,
   MALTA
   Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature for publication

[Daniel F. Heiman]

Anthony:

Given the current state of the art, I would strongly encourage you to use
Fronimo to set the tablature version of your edition.   The cost of the
software is moderate given the amount of time and effort that has been put
into creating it.  Input of tablature is very easy and very quick.  The
fonts provided with the program are extremely legible and well-designed -
Francesco has worked hard to make the letters compatible so there are no
clashes between them when they appear on adjacent lines.   The fonts are
aesthetically pleasing, and there are styles based loosely on historical
examples from various traditions and tablature systems.  Rhythm signs are
included in forms that are specific for tablature.  Because the Fronimo
program is designed from the beginning for setting tablature, it includes
provisions for adding all the necessary ornament signs, many of which are
unique to tablature (and hence absent from general-purpose music software
like Finale). The current version (version 3) of Fronimo includes good
flexibility to define the spacing between rhythmic events and to adjust line
spacing, font size, positioning of titles and editorial notes, etc.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Anthony Hart
Sent: 18 November, 2013 23:27
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Tablature for publication

I found a thread to this effect dating back to 2008 and was wondering if
there has been any significant up dates to the opinions.

I am planning to publish some 18th century lute sonatas which are in staff
notation I intend to publish a study edition which is OK, I am using Finale.

I also wish to publish a performance edition which will be in tablature.
Finale has  can achieve this (I am using the latest version 2014). But I am
not sure what would be most widely accepted style.

I have some published works from the 80's and, frankly I am not impressed
with any of them. There has been several publish since those days which I
have not seen.

Does anyone have an option as to the most appropriate style, any examples of
current works. I know that each player has his/her own style which suits
them but I am trying to find a consensus of opinion ( You can please some
people some of the time but it is impossible to please all the people all of
the time!!)I used to copy out all the tablature by hand and became used to
playing from them - but this just my way.

I would be grateful for your options. Those who have published what was the
reason for your choice.

Another question: I propose a study edition which will consist of the score
on staff notation and then publish as a performance edition, probably in
parts (there are 24 sonatas and I was thinking of publishing in, say, four
volumes of six in a spiral bound form for easy handling - any comments on
this welcome. Should I publish as Tablature only (there will be the complete
study edition should anyone be interested) or tablature plus staff in one
volume?

If the latter, the tablature complete followed by staff complete (or vice
versa)or staff then tablature following each other (definitely not together
on one page!.

Still pondering which, I want the publication to be professional but also
able to be playable from the publication.


--

 Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM, ALCM.
Musicologist and Independent Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2,
Tigne' Street,
Sliema,
SLM3174,
MALTA
Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552.



   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature ?! scam

[Monica Hall]

Felix is a superior brand of cat food in the UK at least.  Felix features on 
the box - he is a black and white moggie.   The food is in individual 
pouches and cats love it.

Monica

- Original Message - 
From: "David van Ooijen" 

To: "lutelist Net" 
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:51 PM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature ?! scam



  Look what the cat brought in today. It was addressed to Felix. (Who's
  Felix?) The subject matter was 'tablature'.
  Here's the content:
  >>
  Hello to you
  Shared joy is a double joy, shared sorrow is half a sorrow.
  May be that is why we are looking here for each other?
  I need you to share every moment of my life with you.
  I am kind, sincere, modest, romantic and believe in love and devotion.
  I like housekeeping, knitting, sewing, traveling, listening to music,
  growing flowers.
  Best regards,
  Shelley
  <<
  David - was and still am
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***

  --

References

  1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: tablature ?! scam

[Geoff Gaherty]

On 26/08/13 3:51 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:

Look what the cat brought in today. It was addressed to Felix. (Who's
Felix?) The subject matter was 'tablature'.


I knew they were forging email addresses, but this is the first time 
I've seen a forged subject field!  She must be a lutenist too!


Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature fonts for Fronimo

[adS]

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Valéry,

As for your initial question, the rondeau on fol. 51v is listed by Peter
Steur with ten concordances: 

1. A-ETgoëssV / 28v   |  2. CZ-Bm189 / 108 (mandora)   |  3. D-Gs84k / 40
|  4. GB-HAB2 / 181 (Sm 505)   |  5. PL-Wn396 / 15v   |  6. S-Klm 4a / 4v
(keyboard)   |  7. S-Klm21072 / 77v   |  8. S-L G37 / 21   |  9.
US-NHubBittX / 32   |  10. Washington Leeds / 36 (archlute)

So, one may conclude that it probably was penned by Losy.

Mathias



> Thanks again for all precisions.
> Alas I don't have a mandora. I tried to play some pieces with the gutiar,
nice
> music, quite easy.
> All the best
> Valéry
> 
> 
> -Message d'origine-
> De : Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> Envoyé : mardi 27 mars 2012 17:49
> À : 'Valéry Sauvage'
> Cc : Lute List
> Objet : Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare
> 
> > So I wonder why, from folio 48r to 60 the tab use a low course, some
> > notes below the fifth line of the tab, often (if not all time ? I have
> > to look
> > again) open string, and it is not used any more from folio 61 to the
> > end
> of tab ?
> > For me this last part of tab is perhaps intended for guitar as the
> > title
> named both
> > instrument, guitar and mandora. (seems the scribe is not the same...)
> 
> You are right, the open 6th course is exclusively used on fol. 48—60r. And
there
> may be two distinct scribes (discernible by their respective capital M).
> 
> Furthermore, you may distinguish three portions. The pieces on fol. 48—60
have
> no numbers or other order. Fol. 60v – 76r contain eight "parties" with
numbers,
> followed by a long row of 56 numbered pieces on fol. 76v—96r.
> 
> That doesn't allow, however, for the conclusion that the portion on fol.
> 60v—96r is intended for the guitar, as there is a duet for two mandoras in
the
> 5th partita on fol. 70v – 71r.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> > > > Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly
> > > > one tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I
> > > > presume refers to the gallichon thus once again showing an
> > > > interchange in usage between the mandora and gallichon - though
> > > > the tuning given is not one I recognise from other sources".
> >
> > Apologies, now I see what you mean. That's on fol. 3r (= p. 5). The
> > word
> actually
> > reads "Callezono". There are three tunings. The first two of them are
> intended
> > for the 5c callichon, whereas the third tuning is for the 6string
> > viol, as
> indicated
> > above the system ("Accord pro sex chordis / Aliter Viola di Gamb[a]").
> >
> > The first tuning is a - e - c - G - D. That is a standard callichon
> > tuning
> IIRC what
> > Pietro Prosser wrote about it. The second tuning is somewhat faulty in
> that the
> > names do not match the pitches. There is a bass clef prescribed. The
> > notes
> are b
> > - f - c - F - C. Yet the names written besides the upper three notes
> > are
> g, d, a.
> > They would match in the treble clef, but not with the bass clef. Wrong
> notes and
> > correct names? I don't think so. I should think that the correct
> alternative
> > callichon tuning is bb - f - c - F
> > - C.
> >
> > The third tuning is that of a standard bass viol (in D). That might
> > give a
> clue as for
> > the solo music for the viol (fol. 33v – 47v).
> >
> > Fol. 5r – 33r is a bass part for the accompaniment of arias to be sung.
> > Among them, I stumbled upon the air Sommes nous pas trop heureux by
> > Lully (9v).
> >
> > Fol. 48 – 96 contain solo music for the mandora, closing with a long
> > set
> of
> > variations on Les Folies d'Espagne.
> >
> > On fol. 96 is a chart with alfabeto, followed by an air for the guitar
> ("Man weiß
> > bey dießer zeit von keinem Freund" = no friends around, these days).
> >
> > The rest consists of duets for the viol as treble (betrayed by some
> > dyads)
> and
> > possibly the callichon as bass instruments, including a set of
> arrangements of
> > tunes from Lully's opera Belloferon.
> >
> > Apparently, the guitar and the mandora were considered different not
> > only regarding their respective shapes, but also in terms of playing
> > technique
> and its
> > notation. There is no alfabeto (and, inferentially, no strumming) in
> > the
> mandora
> > parts of the ms.
> >
> > Mathias
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hm, on fol. 6r I see a gavotte and a somewhat strange scale with
> > > ”wrong“
> > pitch
> > > names (suppose it’s a tool for transposing from sight). And on fol.
> > > 6v I
> > see a
> > > Schmidt Courent. No charts on fol. 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76, 86.
> > > There are alfabeto and tuning instructions on fol. 96, but they are
> > intended for
> > > the guitar, and the tuning is not a new one but a different way of
> > > tuning,
> > i.e. in
> > > octaves and fifths (with a mistake in measure 1, as 1a + 3f equals a
> > > major
> > third).
> > >
> > > On p. 24v seq, the headline that I can see reads “Fundamentales
> > > Concentus
> > in
> > > Callizon”, i.e. either “chords in root position” 

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

> So I wonder why, from folio 48r to 60 the tab use a low course, some notes
> below the fifth line of the tab, often (if not all time ? I have to look
> again) open string, and it is not used any more from folio 61 to the end
of tab ?
> For me this last part of tab is perhaps intended for guitar as the title
named both
> instrument, guitar and mandora. (seems the scribe is not the same...)

You are right, the open 6th course is exclusively used on fol. 48—60r. And
there may be two distinct scribes (discernible by their respective capital
M). 

Furthermore, you may distinguish three portions. The pieces on fol. 48—60
have no numbers or other order. Fol. 60v – 76r contain eight "parties" with
numbers, followed by a long row of 56 numbered pieces on fol. 76v—96r.

That doesn't allow, however, for the conclusion that the portion on fol.
60v—96r is intended for the guitar, as there is a duet for two mandoras in
the 5th partita on fol. 70v – 71r.

Mathias



> > > Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly one
> > > tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I presume
> > > refers to the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in
> > > usage between the mandora and gallichon - though the tuning given is
> > > not one I recognise from other sources".
> 
> Apologies, now I see what you mean. That's on fol. 3r (= p. 5). The word
actually
> reads "Callezono". There are three tunings. The first two of them are
intended
> for the 5c callichon, whereas the third tuning is for the 6string viol, as
indicated
> above the system ("Accord pro sex chordis / Aliter Viola di Gamb[a]").
> 
> The first tuning is a - e - c - G - D. That is a standard callichon tuning
IIRC what
> Pietro Prosser wrote about it. The second tuning is somewhat faulty in
that the
> names do not match the pitches. There is a bass clef prescribed. The notes
are b
> - f - c - F - C. Yet the names written besides the upper three notes are
g, d, a.
> They would match in the treble clef, but not with the bass clef. Wrong
notes and
> correct names? I don't think so. I should think that the correct
alternative
> callichon tuning is bb - f - c - F
> - C.
> 
> The third tuning is that of a standard bass viol (in D). That might give a
clue as for
> the solo music for the viol (fol. 33v – 47v).
> 
> Fol. 5r – 33r is a bass part for the accompaniment of arias to be sung.
> Among them, I stumbled upon the air Sommes nous pas trop heureux by Lully
> (9v).
> 
> Fol. 48 – 96 contain solo music for the mandora, closing with a long set
of
> variations on Les Folies d'Espagne.
> 
> On fol. 96 is a chart with alfabeto, followed by an air for the guitar
("Man weiß
> bey dießer zeit von keinem Freund" = no friends around, these days).
> 
> The rest consists of duets for the viol as treble (betrayed by some dyads)
and
> possibly the callichon as bass instruments, including a set of
arrangements of
> tunes from Lully's opera Belloferon.
> 
> Apparently, the guitar and the mandora were considered different not only
> regarding their respective shapes, but also in terms of playing technique
and its
> notation. There is no alfabeto (and, inferentially, no strumming) in the
mandora
> parts of the ms.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> > Hm, on fol. 6r I see a gavotte and a somewhat strange scale with
> > ”wrong“
> pitch
> > names (suppose it’s a tool for transposing from sight). And on fol. 6v
> > I
> see a
> > Schmidt Courent. No charts on fol. 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76, 86.
> > There are alfabeto and tuning instructions on fol. 96, but they are
> intended for
> > the guitar, and the tuning is not a new one but a different way of
> > tuning,
> i.e. in
> > octaves and fifths (with a mistake in measure 1, as 1a + 3f equals a
> > major
> third).
> >
> > On p. 24v seq, the headline that I can see reads “Fundamentales
> > Concentus
> in
> > Callizon”, i.e. either “chords in root position” or “basic chords” on
> > the
> Callichon.
> > Considering fol. 25r, I prefer the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Valéry Sauvage]

So I wonder why, from folio 48r to 60 the tab use a low course, some notes
below the fifth line of the tab, often (if not all time ? I have to look
again) open string, and it is not used any more from folio 61 to the end of
tab ? For me this last part of tab is perhaps intended for guitar as the
title named both instrument, guitar and mandora. (seems the scribe is not
the same...)


-Message d'origine-
De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part
de Mathias Rösel
Envoyé : mardi 27 mars 2012 16:04
À : 'Martyn Hodgson'
Cc : 'Lute List'
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

> > Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly
> > one tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I presume
> > refers to the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in usage
> > between the mandora and gallichon - though the tuning given is not
> > one I recognise from other sources".

Apologies, now I see what you mean. That's on fol. 3r (= p. 5). The word
actually reads "Callezono". There are three tunings. The first two of them
are intended for the 5c callichon, whereas the third tuning is for the
6string viol, as indicated above the system ("Accord pro sex chordis /
Aliter Viola di Gamb[a]").

The first tuning is a - e - c - G - D. That is a standard callichon tuning
IIRC what Pietro Prosser wrote about it. The second tuning is somewhat
faulty in that the names do not match the pitches. There is a bass clef
prescribed. The notes are b - f - c - F - C. Yet the names written besides
the upper three notes are g, d, a. They would match in the treble clef, but
not with the bass clef. Wrong notes and correct names? I don't think so. I
should think that the correct alternative callichon tuning is bb - f - c - F
- C.

The third tuning is that of a standard bass viol (in D). That might give a
clue as for the solo music for the viol (fol. 33v – 47v). 

Fol. 5r – 33r is a bass part for the accompaniment of arias to be sung.
Among them, I stumbled upon the air Sommes nous pas trop heureux by Lully
(9v).

Fol. 48 – 96 contain solo music for the mandora, closing with a long set of
variations on Les Folies d'Espagne. 

On fol. 96 is a chart with alfabeto, followed by an air for the guitar ("Man
weiß bey dießer zeit von keinem Freund" = no friends around, these days). 

The rest consists of duets for the viol as treble (betrayed by some dyads)
and possibly the callichon as bass instruments, including a set of
arrangements of tunes from Lully's opera Belloferon.

Apparently, the guitar and the mandora were considered different not only
regarding their respective shapes, but also in terms of playing technique
and its notation. There is no alfabeto (and, inferentially, no strumming) in
the mandora parts of the ms.

Mathias



> Hm, on fol. 6r I see a gavotte and a somewhat strange scale with ”wrong“
pitch
> names (suppose it’s a tool for transposing from sight). And on fol. 6v I
see a
> Schmidt Courent. No charts on fol. 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76, 86.
> There are alfabeto and tuning instructions on fol. 96, but they are
intended for
> the guitar, and the tuning is not a new one but a different way of tuning,
i.e. in
> octaves and fifths (with a mistake in measure 1, as 1a + 3f equals a major
third).
> 
> On p. 24v seq, the headline that I can see reads “Fundamentales Concentus
in
> Callizon”, i.e. either “chords in root position” or “basic chords” on the
Callichon.
> Considering fol. 25r, I prefer the latter.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

> > Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly
> > one tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I presume
> > refers to the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in usage
> > between the mandora and gallichon - though the tuning given is not
> > one I recognise from other sources".

Apologies, now I see what you mean. That's on fol. 3r (= p. 5). The word
actually reads "Callezono". There are three tunings. The first two of them
are intended for the 5c callichon, whereas the third tuning is for the
6string viol, as indicated above the system ("Accord pro sex chordis /
Aliter Viola di Gamb[a]").

The first tuning is a - e - c - G - D. That is a standard callichon tuning
IIRC what Pietro Prosser wrote about it. The second tuning is somewhat
faulty in that the names do not match the pitches. There is a bass clef
prescribed. The notes are b - f - c - F - C. Yet the names written besides
the upper three notes are g, d, a. They would match in the treble clef, but
not with the bass clef. Wrong notes and correct names? I don't think so. I
should think that the correct alternative callichon tuning is bb - f - c - F
- C.

The third tuning is that of a standard bass viol (in D). That might give a
clue as for the solo music for the viol (fol. 33v – 47v). 

Fol. 5r – 33r is a bass part for the accompaniment of arias to be sung.
Among them, I stumbled upon the air Sommes nous pas trop heureux by Lully
(9v).

Fol. 48 – 96 contain solo music for the mandora, closing with a long set of
variations on Les Folies d'Espagne. 

On fol. 96 is a chart with alfabeto, followed by an air for the guitar ("Man
weiß bey dießer zeit von keinem Freund" = no friends around, these days). 

The rest consists of duets for the viol as treble (betrayed by some dyads)
and possibly the callichon as bass instruments, including a set of
arrangements of tunes from Lully's opera Belloferon.

Apparently, the guitar and the mandora were considered different not only
regarding their respective shapes, but also in terms of playing technique
and its notation. There is no alfabeto (and, inferentially, no strumming) in
the mandora parts of the ms.

Mathias



> Hm, on fol. 6r I see a gavotte and a somewhat strange scale with ”wrong“
pitch
> names (suppose it’s a tool for transposing from sight). And on fol. 6v I
see a
> Schmidt Courent. No charts on fol. 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76, 86.
> There are alfabeto and tuning instructions on fol. 96, but they are
intended for
> the guitar, and the tuning is not a new one but a different way of tuning,
i.e. in
> octaves and fifths (with a mistake in measure 1, as 1a + 3f equals a major
third).
> 
> On p. 24v seq, the headline that I can see reads “Fundamentales Concentus
in
> Callizon”, i.e. either “chords in root position” or “basic chords” on the
Callichon.
> Considering fol. 25r, I prefer the latter.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

--=_NextPart_001_000E_01CD0C13.766DED40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Martyn,

 

The enlarged screenshot makes it pretty clear IMO that the word reads "et"
with a faded e-loop.

 



 

>Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly one

>tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I presume refers

>to the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in usage

>between the mandora and gallichon - though the tuning given is not one

>I recognise from other sources".

 

Hm, on fol. 6r I see a gavotte and a somewhat strange scale with ”wrong“
pitch names (suppose it’s a tool for transposing from sight). And on fol. 6v
I see a Schmidt Courent. No charts on fol. 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76, 86.
There are alfabeto and tuning instructions on fol. 96, but they are intended
for the guitar, and the tuning is not a new one but a different way of
tuning, i.e. in octaves and fifths (with a mistake in measure 1, as 1a + 3f
equals a major third).

 

On p. 24v seq, the headline that I can see reads “Fundamentales Concentus in
Callizon”, i.e. either “chords in root position” or “basic chords” on the
Callichon. Considering fol. 25r, I prefer the latter.

 

>Other

>than body shape, the big difference between the E tuned 5 course

>mandora and the guitar

 

There are quite a few sources which require mandoras with their 5th courses
in G (the “Brescianello” suites spring to mind). The headline on fol. 48v
seems to imply that the guitar and the mandora were considered different
instruments with identical tunings.

 

Mathias

 

 

 

 

>--- On Mon, 26/3/12, Mathias RAP:sel <
<mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de> mathias.roe...@t-online.de>

>wrote:

> 

>  From: Mathias RAP:sel < <mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
mathias.roe...@t-online.de>

>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

>  To: "'Lute Dmth'" < <mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

>  Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 16:38

> 

>>The tablature is for guitar or mandora (a 6th course is required

>on the

>>earlier folios). Folio 48r shows the tuning with a 6th course (at

>nominal G ie a tone

>>below the 5th course) so this certainly looks like mandora music.

>The

>intervals

>>between the highest five courses is identical on both instruments

>and

>most of

>>the pieces could be played on the 5 course guitar too.

>Did you note the instructions on fol. 24 seqq? They are obviously

>intended

>for the 5c calichon, tuned g - d - Bb - F - C.

>>In this context the heading on fol. 48v is very interesting

>'Accordo

>>Chytarra A Mandora' aEUR" whatever this meant to the scribe.

>As I said, the headline reads: Accordo ChytarA| et MandorA|, meaning

>"tuning

>of the guitar and the mandora".

>Mathias

>To get on or off this list see list information at

>[1] <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

> 

>--

> 

> References

> 

>1.  <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 


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[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Mathias

   Indeed I noticed the gallichon tuning, and wrote: "Interestingly one
   tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which I presume refers
   to the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in usage
   between the mandora and gallichon - though the tuning given is not one
   I recognise from other sources".

   Regarding the headfing on 48v, does it actually read 'et'?  I see 'A'
   which is why I wrote:
   "whatever this meant to the scribe"!  Though I suppose it could simply
   be a shorthand for 'et' - but I didn't wish to rule out the possibility
   that it implied a joint name for a single instrument ie perhaps a
   guitar in mandora shape ( or even mandora in a guitar shape). Other
   than body shape, the big difference between the E tuned 5 course
   mandora and the guitar is how the basses are disposed: ie bourdons on
   lower courses with octave strings placed on the treble side. However, I
   don't think we should rule out the possibility that by the early 18th
   century octave strings were also placed on the treble side on many
   guitars. In my view contemporary sources such as the Deisel MSs work
   best with this arrangement. But mere speculation of course..

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 26/3/12, Mathias RAP:sel 
   wrote:

 From: Mathias RAP:sel 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare
 To: "'Lute Dmth'" 
 Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 16:38

   >The tablature is for guitar or mandora (a 6th course is required
   on the
   >earlier folios). Folio 48r shows the tuning with a 6th course (at
   nominal G ie a tone
   >below the 5th course) so this certainly looks like mandora music.
   The
   intervals
   >between the highest five courses is identical on both instruments
   and
   most of
   >the pieces could be played on the 5 course guitar too.
   Did you note the instructions on fol. 24 seqq? They are obviously
   intended
   for the 5c calichon, tuned g - d - Bb - F - C.
   >In this context the heading on fol. 48v is very interesting
   'Accordo
   >Chytarra A Mandora' aEUR" whatever this meant to the scribe.
   As I said, the headline reads: Accordo ChytarA| et MandorA|, meaning
   "tuning
   of the guitar and the mandora".
   Mathias
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

>The tablature is for guitar or mandora (a 6th course is required on the
>earlier folios). Folio 48r shows the tuning with a 6th course (at
nominal G ie a tone
>below the 5th course) so this certainly looks like mandora music. The
intervals
>between the highest five courses is identical on both instruments and
most of 
>the pieces could be played on the 5 course guitar too.

Did you note the instructions on fol. 24 seqq? They are obviously intended
for the 5c calichon, tuned g - d - Bb - F - C.

>In this context the heading on fol. 48v is very interesting 'Accordo
>Chytarra A Mandora' – whatever this meant to the scribe. 

As I said, the headline reads: Accordo Chytaræ et Mandoræ, meaning "tuning
of the guitar and the mandora". 

Mathias




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

>The tablature is for guitar or mandora (a 6th course is required on the
>earlier folios). Folio 48r shows the tuning with a 6th course (at
nominal G ie a tone
>below the 5th course) so this certainly looks like mandora music. The
intervals
>between the highest five courses is identical on both instruments and
most of 
>the pieces could be played on the 5 course guitar too.

Did you note the instructions on fol. 24 seqq? They are obviously intended
for the 5c calichon, tuned g - d - Bb - F - C.

>In this context the heading on fol. 48v is very interesting 'Accordo
>Chytarra A Mandora' – whatever this meant to the scribe. 

As I said, the headline reads: Accordo Chytaræ et Mandoræ, meaning "tuning
of the guitar and the mandora". 

Mathias




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Valery - I have it now.  And thank you for bringing it to our
   attention.

   A few quick observations:

   The tablature is for guitar or mandora (a 6th course is required on the
   earlier folios).
   Folio 48r shows the tuning with a 6th course (at nominal G ie a tone
   below the 5th
   course) so this certainly looks like mandora music. The intervals
   between the highest
   five courses is identical on both instruments and most of the pieces
   could be played
   on the 5 course guitar too. Incidentally there are other 5 course
   mandora sources.
   Fol 69v (their numbering 72v) also has a piece for a Mandora 1 and a
   Mandora 2 .

   In this context the heading on fol. 48v is very interesting 'Accordo
   Chytarra A Mandora'
   - whatever this meant to the scribe.  This page also contains added
   numbers under
   the basses - as if it were for an archmandora or archguitar. The hand
   of these numbers
   looks to me not  the same as the main scribe and I suspect may have
   been
   entered later as the manuscript owner tried to adapt the music to a
   theorboed
   instrument recently acquired. Whatever the reason, they soon tired of
   the idea - after
   a mere three lines in fact..

   Interestingly one tuning on fol 6 is given as for the 'Calledono' which
   I presume refers to
   the gallichon thus once again showing an interchange in usage between
   the mandora
and gallichon - though the tuning given is not one I recognise from
   other sources.

   In my view, the writing looks more like mandora music than for guitar
   and I therefore
   suggest a low bass 5th course with the octave on the high side (ie the
   low bass sounds
   firstand stronger).

   I've not had time to search for concordances - tho' some seem familiar
   ( a bit like
Deisel's output) but the later staff notation pieces include music
   from Lully's (I think)
   Bellepheron.

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 26/3/12, Valery Sauvage  wrote:

 From: Valery Sauvage 
 Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare
 To: "'Martyn Hodgson'" 
 Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 10:21

   Try the link on the Ning page :

   [1]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/losy-or-not-losy-logy-mando
   ra-guitar-book

   (I hope this one will not be cuted..)

   V.


   De : Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Envoye : lundi 26 mars 2012 10:47
   A : Valery Sauvage
   Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare


   Thank you. I tried  but got this. M.


No results found for
[2]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8C198B9
85D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar.


   --- On Mon, 26/3/12, Valery Sauvage  wrote:

 From: Valery Sauvage 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare
 To: "'Lute Net'" 
 Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 9:38

  You have to put together the two lines as there was a cut in the
  link... (all what is between < and > )
  <[3]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8
   C198B9
  85D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar>
  V.
  De : Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
  Envoye : lundi 26 mars 2012 10:34
  A : Valery Sauvage
  Objet : Re: [LUTE] Tablature Mandore Guitare
  Dear Valery,
  I'd like to help but this link doesn't seem to work.
  regards
  Martyn
  --- On Mon, 26/3/12, Valery Sauvage <[5]sauvag...@orange.fr> wrote:
From: Valery Sauvage <[6]sauvag...@orange.fr>
Subject: [LUTE] Tablature Mandore Guitare
To: "'Lute Net'" <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
   [8]le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr
Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 9:28

   [1][1][9]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850A
  A8C198
 B985D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar
 This is an interesting Ms with tabs for Mandora (Galichon ?) and
 baroque guitar (from F. 48r, 6 courses, from 60v for 5 courses)
   Some
 bibliographical informations mention the name of J. A. Losy
   (under
 publication by Jaroslav Pohanka in 1958).
  Is this music by Losy ? Any information is welcome.
 Nice music anyway !
 All the best,
 Valery
 Voici un lien vers une tablature interessante (`a partir du folio
  48r,
 pieces pour un instrument `a 6 choeurs, mandore probablement,
   puis
  `a
 partir du folio 60v, pieces pour instrument `a 5 choeurs.
 Dans la bibliographie il est fait mention de J.A. Losy par
   Jaroslav
 Pohanka (une edition de 1958) mais cette musique est-elle bien de
 Losy ? ou il y est fait reference uniquement dans la
   bibliographie ?
 Quelqu'un aurait une information ? Sinon la musique semble
  agreable...
 Bonne decouverte,
   

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Monica Hall]

In modern terms, the ms. is neither for the guitar nor for the mandora, 
but
for archguitar (see http://youtu.be/CNJaYInbbhs), as you can see on p. 
48v.


The required instrument has 12 (twelve) courses. The headline nevertheless
reads: Accordo Cytharræ et Mandoræ.


As far as I could make out the manuscript includes a variety of material - 
some in staff notation, some for 5-course guitar and some a theorboed 
guitar.




Provided the required instrument existed, this clarifies that there were
mandoras with up to 12 courses.


5-course instruments with additional open bass courses certainly existed. 
There is music for such an instrument in Granata's 1659 book which is what 
Rob plays on the you-tube clip.


Granata's instrument was actually guitar shaped.

However it is not clear whether other instruments with this configuaration 
had lute shaped or guitar shaped bodies.


An article on this subject which I wrote is in Early Music for February 2011 
and it included the picture of Granata's instrument.   I wasn't aware of 
this source at the time.


Monica







To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Mathias Rösel]

> [1]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8C1
> 98
>B985D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar
> 
> 
>This is an interesting Ms with tabs for Mandora (Galichon ?) and
>baroque guitar (from F. 48r, 6 courses, from 60v for 5 courses) Some
>bibliographical informations mention the name of J. A. Losy (under
>publication by Jaroslav Pohanka in 1958).

Merci beaucoup for sharing, Valérie! Would that it could be downloaded as a
whole!

In modern terms, the ms. is neither for the guitar nor for the mandora, but
for archguitar (see http://youtu.be/CNJaYInbbhs), as you can see on p. 48v. 

The required instrument has 12 (twelve) courses. The headline nevertheless
reads: Accordo Cytharræ et Mandoræ. 

Provided the required instrument existed, this clarifies that there were
mandoras with up to 12 courses.

Mathias




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Mandore Guitare

[Valéry Sauvage]

   You have to put together the two lines as there was a cut in the
   link... (all what is between < and > )


   


   V.


   De : Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Envoye : lundi 26 mars 2012 10:34
   A : Valery Sauvage
   Objet : Re: [LUTE] Tablature Mandore Guitare


   Dear Valery,

   I'd like to help but this link doesn't seem to work.


   regards


   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 26/3/12, Valery Sauvage  wrote:

 From: Valery Sauvage 
 Subject: [LUTE] Tablature Mandore Guitare
 To: "'Lute Net'" , le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr
 Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 9:28

  [1][1]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850A
   A8C198
  B985D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar
  This is an interesting Ms with tabs for Mandora (Galichon ?) and
  baroque guitar (from F. 48r, 6 courses, from 60v for 5 courses) Some
  bibliographical informations mention the name of J. A. Losy (under
  publication by Jaroslav Pohanka in 1958).
   Is this music by Losy ? Any information is welcome.
  Nice music anyway !
  All the best,
  Valery
  Voici un lien vers une tablature interessante (`a partir du folio
   48r,
  pieces pour un instrument `a 6 choeurs, mandore probablement, puis
   `a
  partir du folio 60v, pieces pour instrument `a 5 choeurs.
  Dans la bibliographie il est fait mention de J.A. Losy par Jaroslav
  Pohanka (une edition de 1958) mais cette musique est-elle bien de
  Losy ? ou il y est fait reference uniquement dans la bibliographie ?
  Quelqu'un aurait une information ? Sinon la musique semble
   agreable...
  Bonne decouverte,
  Valery
   (Lien communique par Jean-Franc,ois Delcamp)
  --
   References
  1.
   [2]http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8C198
   B985D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8C198
   2. 
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92004/8BBCF27BFD3362850AA8C198B985D9AD99E3393B.html?query=Losy+guitar
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Leonard Williams]

Christoph Dalitz has already created a tablature program (abctab2ps) based
on abc.  It will work with older abc files as well.  It can create
multi-stave, mixed tab and staff output as well.  And it's free.

Regards,
Leonard Williams 


On 8/16/11 8:04 AM, "Francesco Tribioli"  wrote:

> What about abc/abctab? It's a textual format, like Wayne's TAB format,
> Django as far as I know supports it (partially, completely? Export only or
> both ways?), and might be an alternative to XML. The problem I see with it
> is that it's complex and quite not user friendly for editing with a textual
> editor. For instance, if I remember well, the same character can have
> different meanings depending on modifier characters that follow it. Also
> many of the notation signs and features it supports (covered by the abc part
> of the format) are not implemented in our more tab oriented programs. Its
> complexity and the necessity to support the format only partially make it
> somewhat annoying to implement it in software, from my point of view, and
> that's why till now I have postponed the work of adding it to Fronimo, but
> if it is a standard that could be acceptable for the community I might
> overcome my laziness 8^))
> 
> Of course there is always the option to define our own format, but it isn't
> an easy task, because if we want something of general and that could last in
> time the new format should support correctly and completely modern and
> ancient notation, together with the many variants of tablature.
> 
> Francesco
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Mark Probert
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:12 PM
>> To: 'lute net'
>> Cc: R. Mattes; Taco Walstra
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
>> 
>> 
>> Hi...
>> 
>>> On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a
>>>> storage format for (lute) tablature.
>>> 
>>> I second your last statement.
>>> 
>> 
>> I also agree, thinking that XML is a pox on all our houses :-)
>> 
>> However, in this case, having a standard format would be good.  And XML
>> does provide a syntax that could work, if in a rather inefficient and
> verbose
>> manner.
>> 
>> My issue is that the MusicXML format is just not going to work very well
> for
>> lute music.  It is meant for a different purpose, one that doesn;t suit
> our
>> community very well at all, even though there is superficial similarities.
>> 
>> I suppose that one option would be for the extended software-using lute
>> community to come up with its own standard.  Form an "interest group"
>> within the IETF (or whatever is applicable to this context) and define our
> own
>> standard.
>> 
>> After all, the majority of us use one of Fronimo (Francesco), Django
> (Alain),
>> TAB (Wayne) or Sibelius.  That is not too many to get on-board.
>> And it seems like Alain has already put in a lot of effort...
>> 
>> . mark
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Ron Andrico]

   This is a very interesting discussion and I applaud Francesco's idea.
   While I have always thought the output from abctab is wonderful, I am
   tired of learning the ins and outs of software generally, and don't
   really have time to fiddle with what seems like code.  Fronimo really
   seems like one of the most user-friendly tab and music editing formats
   but, as one who has a great deal of time invested in editing, I would
   use it with greater comfort knowing there is a safe method of long-term
   archiving of all that work.
   RA
   > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:04:04 +0200
   > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > From: tribi...@arcetri.astro.it
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
   >
   > What about abc/abctab? It's a textual format, like Wayne's TAB
   format,
   > Django as far as I know supports it (partially, completely? Export
   only or
   > both ways?), and might be an alternative to XML. The problem I see
   with it
   > is that it's complex and quite not user friendly for editing with a
   textual
   > editor. For instance, if I remember well, the same character can have
   > different meanings depending on modifier characters that follow it.
   Also
   > many of the notation signs and features it supports (covered by the
   abc part
   > of the format) are not implemented in our more tab oriented programs.
   Its
   > complexity and the necessity to support the format only partially
   make it
   > somewhat annoying to implement it in software, from my point of view,
   and
   > that's why till now I have postponed the work of adding it to
   Fronimo, but
   > if it is a standard that could be acceptable for the community I
   might
   > overcome my laziness 8^))
   >
   > Of course there is always the option to define our own format, but it
   isn't
   > an easy task, because if we want something of general and that could
   last in
   > time the new format should support correctly and completely modern
   and
   > ancient notation, together with the many variants of tablature.
   >
   > Francesco
   >
   > > -Original Message-
   > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   On
   > > Behalf Of Mark Probert
   > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:12 PM
   > > To: 'lute net'
   > > Cc: R. Mattes; Taco Walstra
   > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
   > >
   > >
   > > Hi...
   > >
   > > > On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > > I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a
   > > > > storage format for (lute) tablature.
   > > >
   > > > I second your last statement.
   > > >
   > >
   > > I also agree, thinking that XML is a pox on all our houses :-)
   > >
   > > However, in this case, having a standard format would be good. And
   XML
   > > does provide a syntax that could work, if in a rather inefficient
   and
   > verbose
   > > manner.
   > >
   > > My issue is that the MusicXML format is just not going to work very
   well
   > for
   > > lute music. It is meant for a different purpose, one that doesn;t
   suit
   > our
   > > community very well at all, even though there is superficial
   similarities.
   > >
   > > I suppose that one option would be for the extended software-using
   lute
   > > community to come up with its own standard. Form an "interest
   group"
   > > within the IETF (or whatever is applicable to this context) and
   define our
   > own
   > > standard.
   > >
   > > After all, the majority of us use one of Fronimo (Francesco),
   Django
   > (Alain),
   > > TAB (Wayne) or Sibelius. That is not too many to get on-board.
   > > And it seems like Alain has already put in a lot of effort...
   > >
   > > . mark
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >

   --

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Francesco Tribioli]

What about abc/abctab? It's a textual format, like Wayne's TAB format,
Django as far as I know supports it (partially, completely? Export only or
both ways?), and might be an alternative to XML. The problem I see with it
is that it's complex and quite not user friendly for editing with a textual
editor. For instance, if I remember well, the same character can have
different meanings depending on modifier characters that follow it. Also
many of the notation signs and features it supports (covered by the abc part
of the format) are not implemented in our more tab oriented programs. Its
complexity and the necessity to support the format only partially make it
somewhat annoying to implement it in software, from my point of view, and
that's why till now I have postponed the work of adding it to Fronimo, but
if it is a standard that could be acceptable for the community I might
overcome my laziness 8^))

Of course there is always the option to define our own format, but it isn't
an easy task, because if we want something of general and that could last in
time the new format should support correctly and completely modern and
ancient notation, together with the many variants of tablature.

Francesco

> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mark Probert
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:12 PM
> To: 'lute net'
> Cc: R. Mattes; Taco Walstra
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
> 
> 
> Hi...
> 
> > On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
> > >
> > > I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a
> > > storage format for (lute) tablature.
> >
> > I second your last statement.
> >
> 
> I also agree, thinking that XML is a pox on all our houses :-)
> 
> However, in this case, having a standard format would be good.  And XML
> does provide a syntax that could work, if in a rather inefficient and
verbose
> manner.
> 
> My issue is that the MusicXML format is just not going to work very well
for
> lute music.  It is meant for a different purpose, one that doesn;t suit
our
> community very well at all, even though there is superficial similarities.
> 
> I suppose that one option would be for the extended software-using lute
> community to come up with its own standard.  Form an "interest group"
> within the IETF (or whatever is applicable to this context) and define our
own
> standard.
> 
> After all, the majority of us use one of Fronimo (Francesco), Django
(Alain),
> TAB (Wayne) or Sibelius.  That is not too many to get on-board.
> And it seems like Alain has already put in a lot of effort...
> 
> . mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Mark Probert]

Hi...

> On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
> >
> > I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a storage
> > format for (lute) tablature. 
> 
> I second your last statement. 
> 

I also agree, thinking that XML is a pox on all our houses :-)

However, in this case, having a standard format would be good.  And XML
does provide a syntax that could work, if in a rather inefficient and
verbose manner.  

My issue is that the MusicXML format is just not going to work very well
for lute music.  It is meant for a different purpose, one that doesn;t
suit our community very well at all, even though there is superficial
similarities.

I suppose that one option would be for the extended software-using lute
community to come up with its own standard.  Form an "interest group"
within the IETF (or whatever is applicable to this context) and define
our own standard.  

After all, the majority of us use one of Fronimo (Francesco), Django
(Alain), TAB (Wayne) or Sibelius.  That is not too many to get on-board. 
And it seems like Alain has already put in a lot of effort...

. mark




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Taco Walstra]

On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:




Interestingly enough, Tim's TabCode format is the
inspiration for the tab format I have used to export Django files to
a Braille compatible printer. Another advantage of XML is that it
can be rewritten using XSL into a large variety of other formats,
including by people who have no access to the original code. Alain


I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a storage
format for (lute) tablature. If there's interest I might be able to elaborate
a bit (need to do some practising now) ...

  Cheers, RalfD



I second your last statement. A nice example is xml format used by 
microsoft office. This contains many xml elements which have no clear 
meaning, moreover the contents of an element can even contain binary 
blobs of information. So, transfered to the lutetab xml idea such an xml 
file could look like this:


@$%^&$@$%^

10 years ago xml was hot, because of it's open character and 
possibilities to port between programs, especially word processing and 
it was popular with content of webpages. It's however more important 
that commercial programs provide information about their internal 
fileformat, be it either in xml or any other format. If this is clear 
you will not need xsl, but you are able to convert it using any 
programming language in the same amount of time or perhaps less.

taco



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[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[R. Mattes]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:59:26 -0700, Alain wrote
> Hi Denys,
> It is indeed the project I was thinking of. Unfortunately, I still 
> cannot find the XML specification on the WEB site though (after 
> cursory browsing). If it is somewhere, I'd really like to take a 
> look at it. 

I might be able to help with a vew references here:

- Crawford, T.: Applications Involving Tablatures: 
   TabCode for Lute Repertories.
   Computing in Musicology 7 (1991) 57–59

- Wiering, F. & Crawford, T.: 
  Creating an XML Vocabulary for Encoding Lute Music
 
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.99.3337&rep=rep1&type=pdf

- David Lewis, Tim Crawford and Michael Gale:
  An Electronic Corpus of Lute Music (ECOLM):
  Technological challenges and musicological possibilities  
 
http://www.uni-graz.at/richard.parncutt/cim04/CIM04_paper_pdf/Lewis_Crwaford_CIM04_proceedings.pdf

- Christophe Rhodes and David Lewis:
  An editor for lute tablature
 
http://www.uni-graz.at/richard.parncutt/cim04/CIM04_paper_pdf/Lewis_Crwaford_CIM04_proceedings.pdf
  (This is a TabCode editor written in Common Lisp - my editor of choice 
recently)


> Interestingly enough, Tim's TabCode format is the 
> inspiration for the tab format I have used to export Django files to 
> a Braille compatible printer. Another advantage of XML is that it 
> can be rewritten using XSL into a large variety of other formats,
> including by people who have no access to the original code. Alain

I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a storage
format for (lute) tablature. If there's interest I might be able to elaborate
a bit (need to do some practising now) ...

 Cheers, RalfD
 

> On 8/15/2011 12:41 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:
> > Dear Alain,
> > It's good to know that you are giving such careful thought
> > to the longevity of our electronic tablature files. Your
> > reference in your e-mail:
> >
> > 'there existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema,
> > based on MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England'
> >
> > must surely refer to Tim Crawford's work - see:
> >
> > http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/web/
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Denys
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
> > Of Alain
> > Sent: 15 August 2011 19:00
> > To: R. Mattes
> > Cc: Eugene Kurenko; David Smith; Monica Hall; SCOTT ZEIDEL; Lutelist
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Ralf raises a very important point (see his quote below). Transcribing
> > music is a very time intensive, highly skilled job and software can be
> > fickle... However, if I may consider myself one of the "creative
> > people", I want to point out that preserving the life of the documents
> > even beyond the lifetime of our software is indeed a great concern to
> > us. This is the reason why I implemented in Django a function to export
> > music to the MusicXML format. This is one of the arcane functions in
> > Django that 99% of people will happily pass by but it does provide some
> > significant protection against the evil situation described by Ralf. It
> > does this in two ways: both Django and Fronimo file formats are binary
> > formats that are extremely fragile. One byte off, and you may lose
> > hundreds of pieces if they are all contained within a single document...
> > Quite at the opposite, and similar to Wayne's tab format, XML files are
> > text files that can be opened with any normal text editor as well  as
> > very sophisticated dedicated softwares. Additionally, MusicXML files
> > can be read and interpreted by many software packages for a wide variety
> > of purposes. So, this is at least one provision to insure that your work
> > may not be lost in the near or far future.
> > However, it must be noted that the MusicXML format is not extremely
> > friendly to music in tablature format... I am not sure it makes any
> > provision for alfabeto notation, or rhythm flags on the tablature staff,
> > and other Baroque guitar features. Diapasons are also a problem.  I
> > contacted the person in charge of the MusicXML project some years ago to
> > ask for the addition of tablature specific features (diapasons, glyphs,
> > alfabeto, etc.) to their XML schema. The response was that essentially
> > tablature was an inferior form of musical notation and that there
> > existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema, based on
> > MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England. If anyone has any
> >

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Markus Lutz]

Hi Mark and Alain,
in my eyes it would be very good to have a format that can be exchanged 
without problems between different notation and tablature programs.


XML seems to be the best choice at the moment.
There might be some problems with it, but it is in every case possible 
to expand that format.


I don't think that temperature is a problem of notation - it is about 
how something sounds. If non-Western music can be recorded in XML 
correctly, I don't know, but tablature for sure is possible.


Best regards
Markus


Am 16.08.2011 06:39, schrieb Mark Probert:


Hi, Alain...



However, it must be noted that the MusicXML format is not extremely
friendly to music in tablature format...


In looking quickly at the MusicXML 3.0 spec (link below) I would agree.
Further, I would argue that it is not very friendly to pre-Classical
Western music.  For example, I am not sure how one would go about
defining a temperament in this format.  My $0.02 is that they have made
a big mistake by basic the XML schema upon a MIDI implementation.

I would suggest that this is not the way to go for tablature.  Then, the
question that needs to be asked is who is the XML meant for?  What is
its purpose in being?  To seamlessly go between notation programs?  To
provide some "future proofing"?  I am not sure that is going to be
possible...


   http://www.recordare.com/musicxml/specification/dtd

. mark




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Mark Probert]

Hi, Alain...

> 
> However, it must be noted that the MusicXML format is not extremely 
> friendly to music in tablature format... 

In looking quickly at the MusicXML 3.0 spec (link below) I would agree. 
Further, I would argue that it is not very friendly to pre-Classical
Western music.  For example, I am not sure how one would go about
defining a temperament in this format.  My $0.02 is that they have made
a big mistake by basic the XML schema upon a MIDI implementation. 

I would suggest that this is not the way to go for tablature.  Then, the
question that needs to be asked is who is the XML meant for?  What is
its purpose in being?  To seamlessly go between notation programs?  To
provide some "future proofing"?  I am not sure that is going to be
possible...


  http://www.recordare.com/musicxml/specification/dtd

. mark




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Alain]

Hi Denys,
It is indeed the project I was thinking of. Unfortunately, I still 
cannot find the XML specification on the WEB site though (after cursory 
browsing). If it is somewhere, I'd really like to take a look at it.
Interestingly enough, Tim's TabCode format is the inspiration for the 
tab format I have used to export Django files to a Braille compatible 
printer. Another advantage of XML is that it can be rewritten using XSL 
into a large variety of other formats, including by people who have no 
access to the original code.

Alain


On 8/15/2011 12:41 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

Dear Alain,
It's good to know that you are giving such careful thought
to the longevity of our electronic tablature files. Your
reference in your e-mail:

'there existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema,
based on MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England'

must surely refer to Tim Crawford's work - see:

http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/web/

Best wishes,

Denys


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Alain
Sent: 15 August 2011 19:00
To: R. Mattes
Cc: Eugene Kurenko; David Smith; Monica Hall; SCOTT ZEIDEL; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

Hi all,
Ralf raises a very important point (see his quote below). Transcribing
music is a very time intensive, highly skilled job and software can be
fickle... However, if I may consider myself one of the "creative
people", I want to point out that preserving the life of the documents
even beyond the lifetime of our software is indeed a great concern to
us. This is the reason why I implemented in Django a function to export
music to the MusicXML format. This is one of the arcane functions in
Django that 99% of people will happily pass by but it does provide some
significant protection against the evil situation described by Ralf. It
does this in two ways: both Django and Fronimo file formats are binary
formats that are extremely fragile. One byte off, and you may lose
hundreds of pieces if they are all contained within a single document...
Quite at the opposite, and similar to Wayne's tab format, XML files are
text files that can be opened with any normal text editor as well  as
very sophisticated dedicated softwares. Additionally, MusicXML files
can be read and interpreted by many software packages for a wide variety
of purposes. So, this is at least one provision to insure that your work
may not be lost in the near or far future.
However, it must be noted that the MusicXML format is not extremely
friendly to music in tablature format... I am not sure it makes any
provision for alfabeto notation, or rhythm flags on the tablature staff,
and other Baroque guitar features. Diapasons are also a problem.  I
contacted the person in charge of the MusicXML project some years ago to
ask for the addition of tablature specific features (diapasons, glyphs,
alfabeto, etc.) to their XML schema. The response was that essentially
tablature was an inferior form of musical notation and that there
existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema, based on
MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England. If anyone has any
news of that project, please let me know.
I would not be writing at such lengths about this issue if I had not
spent the weekend rewriting all the XML related code in Django... I will
probably come up at some point with my own XML schema for tablature, but
it would be better to have some community involvement. It would also be
better if I had unlimited time and resources which is unfortunately not
the case.
Anyways, this is all in preparation for a coming release of Django, that
also includes an important functionality to stamp document ownership -
another important mundane consideration that took quite a bit of work to
implement -
A preview of  the future new release is available on YouTube - it's my
first camtasia effort ... - at http://www.youtube.com/v/oqZEh26WNK4
I should try to create a video tutorial specific to Baroque guitar tab,
since it is a fairly advanced and involved feature of the software - as
time permits...
Cheers, and thanks to Monica for her good words on Django :)
Alain


On 8/15/2011 1:50 AM, R. Mattes wrote:

Compositions written in enormously expensive notation software, stored
on (back then) state-of-the-art disks (Magneto-optics anyone? SCSI
SyQuest drives?). All of that by now not more than a impressive
digital graveyard (now, I do own a fair collection of rather old
hardware, but even that starts to fail). I wish creative people would
consider such mundane considerations a bit more: what happens if the
author of some software looses interest in the application? Will this
software run on newer versions of the operating system
(DOS/Win3.1/Win2000, you remember?). Will it run on newer hardware (Mac
users, remember PowerPC).




To get on or off this list see list informat

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Alain,
It's good to know that you are giving such careful thought
to the longevity of our electronic tablature files. Your
reference in your e-mail:

'there existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema, 
based on MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England'

must surely refer to Tim Crawford's work - see:

http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/web/

Best wishes,

Denys


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Alain
Sent: 15 August 2011 19:00
To: R. Mattes
Cc: Eugene Kurenko; David Smith; Monica Hall; SCOTT ZEIDEL; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

Hi all,
Ralf raises a very important point (see his quote below). Transcribing 
music is a very time intensive, highly skilled job and software can be 
fickle... However, if I may consider myself one of the "creative 
people", I want to point out that preserving the life of the documents 
even beyond the lifetime of our software is indeed a great concern to 
us. This is the reason why I implemented in Django a function to export 
music to the MusicXML format. This is one of the arcane functions in 
Django that 99% of people will happily pass by but it does provide some 
significant protection against the evil situation described by Ralf. It 
does this in two ways: both Django and Fronimo file formats are binary 
formats that are extremely fragile. One byte off, and you may lose 
hundreds of pieces if they are all contained within a single document...
Quite at the opposite, and similar to Wayne's tab format, XML files are 
text files that can be opened with any normal text editor as well  as 
very sophisticated dedicated softwares. Additionally, MusicXML files  
can be read and interpreted by many software packages for a wide variety 
of purposes. So, this is at least one provision to insure that your work 
may not be lost in the near or far future.
However, it must be noted that the MusicXML format is not extremely 
friendly to music in tablature format... I am not sure it makes any 
provision for alfabeto notation, or rhythm flags on the tablature staff, 
and other Baroque guitar features. Diapasons are also a problem.  I 
contacted the person in charge of the MusicXML project some years ago to 
ask for the addition of tablature specific features (diapasons, glyphs, 
alfabeto, etc.) to their XML schema. The response was that essentially 
tablature was an inferior form of musical notation and that there 
existed already a project for a tablature specific XML schema, based on 
MusicXML, lead by a famous lute scholar in England. If anyone has any 
news of that project, please let me know.
I would not be writing at such lengths about this issue if I had not 
spent the weekend rewriting all the XML related code in Django... I will 
probably come up at some point with my own XML schema for tablature, but 
it would be better to have some community involvement. It would also be 
better if I had unlimited time and resources which is unfortunately not 
the case.
Anyways, this is all in preparation for a coming release of Django, that 
also includes an important functionality to stamp document ownership - 
another important mundane consideration that took quite a bit of work to 
implement -
A preview of  the future new release is available on YouTube - it's my 
first camtasia effort ... - at http://www.youtube.com/v/oqZEh26WNK4
I should try to create a video tutorial specific to Baroque guitar tab, 
since it is a fairly advanced and involved feature of the software - as 
time permits...
Cheers, and thanks to Monica for her good words on Django :)
Alain


On 8/15/2011 1:50 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
> Compositions written in enormously expensive notation software, stored
> on (back then) state-of-the-art disks (Magneto-optics anyone? SCSI
> SyQuest drives?). All of that by now not more than a impressive
> digital graveyard (now, I do own a fair collection of rather old
> hardware, but even that starts to fail). I wish creative people would
> consider such mundane considerations a bit more: what happens if the
> author of some software looses interest in the application? Will this
> software run on newer versions of the operating system
> (DOS/Win3.1/Win2000, you remember?). Will it run on newer hardware (Mac
> users, remember PowerPC).




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Monica Hall]

Yes they were - and actually Alain has made some improvements to the 
programme since then - so I think that's the way to go.


Best

Monica
- Original Message - 
From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 

To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs


Thank you, everyone, for the information about tablature software 
programs. Alfabeto presents, as Monica Hall points out, a very special 
problem. I assume, Monica, that some of the transcriptions on your 
wonderful site (http://www.monicahall.co.uk) were done with Django. They 
look beautiful. So, it's Django for me. Thanks again!


Scott

On Aug 14, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote:

Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put 
alfabeto
letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X for 
the

former and write the latter out in tab.

You will find the details at
www.musickshandmade.com

Monica


- Original Message - From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 
To: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs


I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many 
times
in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do 
mixed
tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but 
so
far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a 
better

way.

Thank you,
Scott Zeidel



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[SCOTT ZEIDEL]

Thank you, everyone, for the information about tablature software programs. 
Alfabeto presents, as Monica Hall points out, a very special problem. I assume, 
Monica, that some of the transcriptions on your wonderful site 
(http://www.monicahall.co.uk) were done with Django. They look beautiful. So, 
it's Django for me. Thanks again!

Scott

On Aug 14, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote:

> Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put alfabeto
> letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X for the
> former and write the latter out in tab.
> 
> You will find the details at
> www.musickshandmade.com
> 
> Monica
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 
> To: "lute" 
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs
> 
> 
>> I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many times
>> in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do mixed
>> tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but so
>> far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a better
>> way.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Scott Zeidel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Monica Hall]

- Original Message - 
From: "David van Ooijen" 

To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:54 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs



On 15 August 2011 08:11, Eugene Kurenko  wrote:

I use Beier tab:

[1]http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm


Earl Christy and I used to make Earl's edition of Baroque lute music
for the LGS (Musica Oscura Vol 1).


But baroque lute tablature is quite different.

Monica


--
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Monica Hall]

The problem is placing the alfabeto letters which represent standard chords
on the tablature in a way that will incorporate them into the playback.
Django will do this.   It is not just a question of graphics.

I don't know whether any of the other programmes that people have mentioned
do actually support this unusual feature of baroque guitar tablature.
Fronimo didn't when I had it but I gave up on it as it didn't even work well
for baroque guitar French tab.   Django will allow you to put the note
values on the staff for strummed chords in French tab  and stroke marks on
the lowest line of the staff for Italian.

But it is not perfect and Alain keeps updating it which sometimes creates 
problems.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: "A. J. Ness" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs



Can you use different fonts?  ZapfWingbats has several +'s that would work
nicely.  Use Googles images to see them.
- Original Message - 
From: "Monica Hall" 

To: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 
Cc: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 5:05 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs



Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put
alfabeto
letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X for
the
former and write the latter out in tab.

You will find the details at
www.musickshandmade.com

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 

To: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs



I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many times
in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do
mixed
tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but so
far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a better
way.

Thank you,
Scott Zeidel



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[David van Ooijen]

On 15 August 2011 08:11, Eugene Kurenko  wrote:
>   I use Beier tab:
>
>   [1]http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm

Earl Christy and I used to make Earl's edition of Baroque lute music
for the LGS (Musica Oscura Vol 1).

David

-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[R. Mattes]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 09:11:40 +0300, Eugene Kurenko wrote
> I use Beier tab:
> 
>[1]http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm

But does it fit the OP's needs? Remember: 
>>  From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" <[7]swzei...@gmail.com>
>>  Does anyone know any music software programs that 
>>  can do   mixed tablature for Baroque guitar?  

>From the feature list on the website and my admitedly small
tests it doesn't seem so. And reading the website blurb:

 This is a “Work-In-Progress”. In other words, its not finished yet.

I wouldn't expect.

>it's free

Kind of. The version you can download will stop working at some point
in the future. Now, there might be a new version available and that
might be free as well, but I couldn't find any statement about that on
the Paul Beier's webpage. If you enter a substantial amount of
tabulature into this program you might end up with waisting a lot of
time. That's a price you do have to pay. BTW, please don't miss-read
this as a critisim of Mr. Beier's work. I just have met enough people
whose own creative work got locked into proprietary software/hardware.
Compositions written in enormously expensive notation software, stored
on (back then) state-of-the-art disks (Magneto-optics anyone? SCSI
SyQuest drives?). All of that by now not more than a impressive
digital graveyard (now, I do own a fair collection of rather old
hardware, but even that starts to fail). I wish creative people would
consider such mundane considerations a bit more: what happens if the
author of some software looses interest in the application? Will this
software run on newer versions of the operating system
(DOS/Win3.1/Win2000, you remember?). Will it run on newer hardware (Mac
users, remember PowerPC). 
 
 Sorry, just some random rant on a rainy day

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

>Eugene
>2011/8/15 David Smith <[2]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
> 
>  Another option might be Fronimo. You can find a demo copy at
>  [3]http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/index.html.
>  David
>  -Original Message-
>  From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>  [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
>      Of Monica Hall
>  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:05 PM
>  To: SCOTT ZEIDEL
>  Cc: Lutelist
>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
> 
>Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will 
> put   alfabeto   letters on the tablature stave although it wont do 
> + or &.   I use X   for the   former and write the latter out in 
> tab.   You will find the details at   [6]www.musickshandmade.com   Monica
>- Original Message -
>From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" <[7]swzei...@gmail.com>
>To: "lute" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
>Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs
>>I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many
>times
>>in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that 
> can do   mixed   >tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything 
> available? I use Finale, but   so   >far my only solution is to add 
> alfabeto as text; there has to be a   better   >way.   >   > Thank 
> you,   > Scott Zeidel   >   >   >   > To get on or off this list see 
> list information at   >
[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm
>2. mailto:d...@dolcesfogato.com
>3. http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/index.html
>4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>6. http://www.musickshandmade.com/
>7. mailto:swzei...@gmail.com
>8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Eugene Kurenko]

   I use Beier tab:

   [1]http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm

   it's free

   Eugene
   2011/8/15 David Smith <[2]d...@dolcesfogato.com>

 Another option might be Fronimo. You can find a demo copy at
 [3]http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/index.html.
 David
 -Original Message-
 From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of Monica Hall
 Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:05 PM
 To: SCOTT ZEIDEL
 Cc: Lutelist
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

   Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put
   alfabeto
   letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X
   for the
   former and write the latter out in tab.
   You will find the details at
   [6]www.musickshandmade.com
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" <[7]swzei...@gmail.com>
   To: "lute" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs
   >I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many
   times
   >in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do
   mixed
   >tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but
   so
   >far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a
   better
   >way.
   >
   > Thank you,
   > Scott Zeidel
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.musico.it/lute_software/beiertab.htm
   2. mailto:d...@dolcesfogato.com
   3. http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/index.html
   4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.musickshandmade.com/
   7. mailto:swzei...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[David Smith]

Another option might be Fronimo. You can find a demo copy at
http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/index.html.

David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Monica Hall
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:05 PM
To: SCOTT ZEIDEL
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put alfabeto
letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X for the
former and write the latter out in tab.

You will find the details at
www.musickshandmade.com

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 
To: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs


>I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many times
>in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do mixed
>tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but so
>far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a better
>way.
>
> Thank you,
> Scott Zeidel
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Monica Hall]

Django will up to a point although it is not perfect.   It will put alfabeto
letters on the tablature stave although it wont do + or &.   I use X for the
former and write the latter out in tab.

You will find the details at
www.musickshandmade.com

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "SCOTT ZEIDEL" 

To: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:14 PM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature software programs



I am new to this list, so I apologize if this has been covered many times
in the past. Does anyone know any music software programs that can do mixed
tablature for Baroque guitar? Is anything available? I use Finale, but so
far my only solution is to add alfabeto as text; there has to be a better
way.

Thank you,
Scott Zeidel



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[David Tayler]

I do in a sense. I think the lute has *way* too small a pool of 
performers and audience. To create a large professional class and 
amateur base we have to do something different, we have to make big changes.
Had we started this 20 years ago, there would be 20 times more 
professional players, and thousands more amateurs. If people need to 
make money, there could be a tiered system where people get free 
editions, then gravitate up.
Or, the model used by ensembles, where editions are supported by arts patrons.
But we need more players, then everyone does better.

I make a fine living playing the lute, but many of my colleagues on 
violin, etc, have a much larger base to draw upon. For the lute to 
really thrive we need a big base.
Conservatory jobs are now being cut back, and it is up to us to 
encourage new players.
Many of my colleagues on the lute have to scramble for work, or take 
day jobs--nothing wrong with that, I worked some pretty bad jobs in school.

And why should there be so few professional concert artists on the 
lute? We can change this.
dt




At 11:52 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>Am 9 Dec 2008 um 14:47 hat David Tayler geschrieben:
>
>
> > 7. All editions should be free. We need more lute players. Thanks to
> > all who make the music available.
>
>Yes, and all lessons likewise. And all the concerts, we need more 
>listeners, you see. After all
>the applause is the bread of the artist...
>Honestly David, do you think we all should do some "real" work and 
>leave the arts to private
>amusements?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Stephan
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Stephan Olbertz]

Am 9 Dec 2008 um 14:47 hat David Tayler geschrieben:


> 7. All editions should be free. We need more lute players. Thanks to 
> all who make the music available.

Yes, and all lessons likewise. And all the concerts, we need more listeners, 
you see. After all 
the applause is the bread of the artist...
Honestly David, do you think we all should do some "real" work and leave the 
arts to private 
amusements?

Best regards,

Stephan



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[demery]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008, howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> 
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:29 PM, Lex van Sante wrote:
> 
>> However you should note that one cannot run Windows on a PPC- Mac.

how about mac OS on a pentium with a partition for windoz?

Yes, it obliges purchase of pentium, which i supose was the original
object, sigh, time for bed.

Maybe you can find a nice used quadra 650 and one of those nu-bus cards
that puts a pentium co-proc inside, network it to the rest of the world.
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Sean Smith]

Me too for the last 5(?) years and the only program I run on it is 
Fronimo which works mostly fine. (ok, and Firefox to download the 
newest Fronimo 3 from time to time ;^) My only slowdown is playing the 
midi files. I have to save them as midi files, send them to the shared 
folder and then open them in Quicktime (or iTunes). Do folks runing 
Fronimo on Intel macs have to do this workaround?


Sean

On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:59 PM, howard posner wrote:



On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:29 PM, Lex van Sante wrote:


However you should note that one cannot run Windows on a PPC- Mac.


I do it all the time using Virtual PC.  Not exactly a perfect option...
--

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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Roman Turovsky]

I ran Stringwalker, Django and Fronimo on VPC until about 3 years ago. No 
difficulties, aside from horrendous echo in midi playback.

I now keep both a Mac and a PC, for a different set of reasons.
RT


- Original Message - 
From: "Lex van Sante" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute mailing list list" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:47 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines



@ Howard Posner: Probably off topic: Sorry!

You mean you have actually been able to use Fronimo with Virtual PC?
That is no mean feat! I've tried using it but it was all very slow, 
unstable, not to mention costly.
I was fortunate that my Apple dealer at the time offered me a chance  to 
test this on one of his PPC's.
After fiddling around for about 15 minutes I had enough. Like you say: 
"Not exactly a perfect option".


Cheers!

Lex van Sante



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[howard posner]

On Dec 9, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Lex van Sante wrote:

> You mean you have actually been able to use Fronimo with Virtual PC?

I've never tried to use Fronimo.


--

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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Lex van Sante]

@ Howard Posner: Probably off topic: Sorry!

You mean you have actually been able to use Fronimo with Virtual PC?
That is no mean feat! I've tried using it but it was all very slow,  
unstable, not to mention costly.
I was fortunate that my Apple dealer at the time offered me a chance  
to test this on one of his PPC's.
After fiddling around for about 15 minutes I had enough. Like you say:  
"Not exactly a perfect option".


Cheers!

Lex van Sante



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[howard posner]

On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:29 PM, Lex van Sante wrote:

> However you should note that one cannot run Windows on a PPC- Mac.

I do it all the time using Virtual PC.  Not exactly a perfect option...
--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[David Tayler]

I think everyone has their faves, just like the original copyists.

Here's a few themes:
1. Landscape vs portrait--
Both existed historically, some formats work better for some music.
But see below
2. Diplomatic facsimile--hints at, or strongly resembles the 
original. A very good choice for many lute players as they have 
knowledge of original tab notation.
A nice choice for many less problematic items, follow the original in 
choosing paper size, flags, etc

3. Reconstructive facsimile
Used in some but no all musicological editions. The idea here is that 
whatever is on the page will allow you to recreate the original. 
There are many ways to do this, it is a very good way to present editions.

4. Edition Facsimile
Choose an editing option and facing or on subsequent pages include 
the original.
NB This is the only satisfactory way to do an edition since we do not 
use sophisticated proofing techniques.
You need not do a rigorous reconstructive edition as the facsimile is 
present, unless you so choose.

5. Study editions
This is a bit off topic, but everyone should be using study editions, 
ideally in three or four part staves, although most of these are in 
keyboard notation.
However, unless you are training in short score, which is of course a 
great way to get gigs, single line expansion is much, much better for 
study and improving your playing than keyboard, and has historical 
precedent as well, for example, Dowland's Lachrimae set.

Once you have decided which kind of edition you are making, many 
choices will follow a sort of house style, for example, in a 
diplomatic facsimile you will want to choose the fonts and spacing 
that resemble the original.
However some of these choices will be personal; the computer allows 
the end user to "repersonalize" the edition.
So, include a computer file so the end user can mess around with it. 
Currently Finale and Sibelius users benefit by the XML interchange 
format, a standard interchange format--other than midi--would be a 
good thing, although midi has sort of occupied that slot, G Flats and all.

6. A wiki interface for correcting online editions should be present. 
This is very important.
7. All editions should be free. We need more lute players. Thanks to 
all who make the music available.



dt




At 12:08 PM 12/9/2008, you wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 9, 2008, David van Ooijen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > Clarity above clutter is a common factor in many postings.
>
>agreed, clutter is bad for legibility.
>
>Grids can be good, when the music has a regular pulse that is shown
>clearly.  Sparse flags can get me lost, the occaisional redundant reminder
>is good, say, at beginning of each bar.
>
>Regular spacing uses the paper best, some musicians have a preferrence for
>proportional spacing as is seen in engraved editinos, but that is a huge
>can of worms and endless tweeking.  Useful when polyphony is shown by
>notes with real duratinos; but in tablature we obscure the actual
>durations of polyphony (when it is present), so I prefer a denser display,
>for me there is no gain to spreading the longer 'chords' further apart.
>
>I can number my own measures, markup my own fingerings, and add my own
>ornamentation marks in my own systems thank you.
>
>Landscape vs portrait is in part an issue of what stand I am working on
>and how I am organizing it.  I might be working from a tall fakebook, or a
>wide edition - playing on both wind and plucked or perhaps singing; If the
>book is wide, tall music (not necessarily tab) placed behind and
>projecting above (legal longways) lets me switch between both as desired;
>maybe a wind player stands behind me sharing the stand...
>
>Dont be despayrd ye publishers, I can always take the originals to a
>copyshop and make what is necessary for that performance.
>
> > I'd like to know what people think is
> > beautiful tablature.
>
>For magically clear french fretglyphs I think Granjon's font is the best
>first used on the continent for a variety of cittern and lute tab, and
>also in england - Kingston used it in 1574 for Le Roy's
>_Instruction...Lute_, and Wm Barley used it in the 1599 print of Richard
>Alison's settings of the _Psalms of David_.  It is rare to have distinct
>small round miniscule a, c, e, but granjon achieved that.
>
>--
>Dana Emery
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Lex van Sante]

@Betsy Lahaussois:

Intel macs can run windows very well via Boot Camp or Parallels or  
some other virtualisation tool.
If you use Boot Camp (free with OSX leopard) you will only need a  
Legal copy of Windows XP with an integrated SP2 or later. Vista will  
run fine as well.
How to do that is explained inthe manual you got with your Mac.  
However you should note that one cannot run Windows on a PPC- Mac.
You will find that in most instances Windows runs smoother on a Mac  
than on a PC.

So maybe your "move" wasn't so "bad" after all.

Cheers!

Lex van Sante



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[demery]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008, David van Ooijen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> Clarity above clutter is a common factor in many postings. 

agreed, clutter is bad for legibility.

Grids can be good, when the music has a regular pulse that is shown
clearly.  Sparse flags can get me lost, the occaisional redundant reminder
is good, say, at beginning of each bar.

Regular spacing uses the paper best, some musicians have a preferrence for
proportional spacing as is seen in engraved editinos, but that is a huge
can of worms and endless tweeking.  Useful when polyphony is shown by
notes with real duratinos; but in tablature we obscure the actual
durations of polyphony (when it is present), so I prefer a denser display,
for me there is no gain to spreading the longer 'chords' further apart.

I can number my own measures, markup my own fingerings, and add my own
ornamentation marks in my own systems thank you.

Landscape vs portrait is in part an issue of what stand I am working on
and how I am organizing it.  I might be working from a tall fakebook, or a
wide edition - playing on both wind and plucked or perhaps singing; If the
book is wide, tall music (not necessarily tab) placed behind and
projecting above (legal longways) lets me switch between both as desired;
maybe a wind player stands behind me sharing the stand...  

Dont be despayrd ye publishers, I can always take the originals to a
copyshop and make what is necessary for that performance.

> I'd like to know what people think is
> beautiful tablature.

For magically clear french fretglyphs I think Granjon's font is the best
first used on the continent for a variety of cittern and lute tab, and
also in england - Kingston used it in 1574 for Le Roy's
_Instruction...Lute_, and Wm Barley used it in the 1599 print of Richard
Alison's settings of the _Psalms of David_.  It is rare to have distinct
small round miniscule a, c, e, but granjon achieved that.

-- 
Dana Emery




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tablature notation guidelines

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Tom,
indeed it is built into Fronimo. Just choose MIDI Files as the file
format into the standard Fronimo file open dialog box. In other words, there
is not a specific import command but the import is done by opening the MIDI
file.

Best wishes,

Francesco

> -Original Message-
> From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:05 PM
> To: Lute Net
> Subject: [LUTE] Tablature notation guidelines
> 
> Dear Tom,
> 
> Alain Veylit's Django software will convert MIDI files to tablature
> automatically.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Stewart McCoy.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 08 December 2008 20:16
> To: List LUTELIST; howard posner
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
> 
>   One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a
> MIDI
> file and it will notate it
> automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from
> scratch).
>   This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
> 
> Tom
> Tom Draughon
> Heartistry Music
> http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
> 714  9th Avenue West
> Ashland, WI  54806
> 715-682-9362
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible!

[Spring, aus dem, Rainer]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:19 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible!


>> If you provide tablature in electronic format you completely loose control.

>true.  Who needs control?  no copyright exists on it as music.

Apparently, you are joking. Believe it or not: I have the copyright on every 
single piece in my Holborne edition because I have changed every single piece.


>My proposal was not intended to interest publishers, but I think it will 
>interest players and scholars.

No scholar will use a tablature file from the internet for any serious purpose 
without comparing it with the original source.


Rainer adS

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Geschaeftsfuehrer: Hitoshi Otsuka
Amtsgericht Duesseldorf



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[David van Ooijen]

Clarity above clutter is a common factor in many postings. Personal
preferences - grid rhythm signs versus minimal use of rhythm signs,
landscape versus portrait, where to place measure numbers - are not
interesting in itself, but if there are enough people sending in their
preferences some sort of order will come. To avoid complaining about
bad practices, all too easy, I'd like to know what people think is
beautiful tablature.

Some favourites of mine, in no particular order but facsimiles only
for starters and beginning on one side of the bookshelves so leaving
out much else: Saizenay (not always clear but always beautiful), the
Petrucci prints (because it still looks like it was printed yesterday,
although I must say I have difficulty with the continuous stream of
rhythm signs), Morlaye (second book with the straight bar lines, every
measure a rhythm signs, btw), Vallet (a bit cramped on the page, but
such elegant ciphers and adapting the d's and b's to available space),
Gerle (comforting amounts of white page around the music, pity of the
page turns), Airs de Cour books from Ballard (nice d's that fit neatly
between the lines), Ballard premier livre (good page lay out, clear
signs, very wel done, buy the facsimile now, even if you have the CNRS
edition), and Toyohiko's handwriting, I might add: elegant and clear.

Could be summarized as clarity above clutter with elegance mixed in.

FWIW, Finale has the option to break tablature lines at the ciphers, a
feature greatly enhancing legibility.

David



-- 
***
David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible!

[Guy Smith]

And therein lies the problem. I have a copy of Rainer's Holborne edition
(which is an impressive and valuable piece of scholarship). I'd love to have
it in digital form so I could tinker with format and what have you, but I
fully understand Rainer's reluctance to release his sources, which is why
I've never even asked.

Open Source is an interesting and sometimes useful approach to things, but
it has its limits.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: adS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:20 PM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible!

Dana,

as you know I am one of the people on the lute net who created a scholarly 
edition of lute music.

I totally disagree.

If you provide tablature in electronic format you completely loose control.
The files will be distributed, modified, distributed again, appear with a 
different copyright notice, ...

To create and distribute tablature in electronic format is fine.
However, this will never replace printed editions.

The only thing one could consider is pdf. pdf or ps is used by some (at
least 
mathematical) on-line journals. For a scholarly edition you must produce a 
"frozen" version.

However, I must say that I would never publish anything as a pdf file that
took 
more than a few days.


Rainer adS

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I come late to this discussion, and can barely take the time today to pen
> this, but will try.
> 
> Modern engraved music has evolved in several major publishing houses
> taking lifetimes of numerous senior editors who have interacted with the
> representatives of major orchestras thruout the world to settle issues
> such sa the ones I see up for debate.  We dont have to make money witht he
> resulting decisions as they did, so we arent as likely to have that focus
> to keep us from endless debate.
> 
> And, with todays technology, we have a better way to deal with it all.
> 
> If the player has an electronic file specifying the tablature, and
> suitable software, she can cause to be displayed or printed whatever
> pleases.  German tab becomes staff, french, or neapolitan tab as desired. 
> Big print, small, wide, narrow, whatever.
> 
> Data entry by us as a large committee wouldnt take so long; the resulting
> DB could be handled PD online, with minimal download fees supporting the
> website and perhaps an administrator (modestly).
> 
> Current print publishers would have to find some hook to keep our interest
> in their editions, perhaps we will cease to need them and they can go on
> to other business.
> 
> There is no 'everyman' answer to even the first question, which form -
> french, italian, german?  Yes, most seem to prefer french, but enough
> prefer italian that you cant ignore that market.  There is then other
> issues - what font to use, thru lines or between spaces, how large the
> type, seperate sparse flags or totally beamed.  Petrucci-style floating
> flags or all flags above.  If ornaments are to be printed, which set of
> signs are to be used?
> 
> Alphabeto lurks in the wings if anyone thinks these issues can find any
> resolution.
> 
> No, best way is to defer the decision to the enduser and provide an
> enabling technology.  Maybe even a choice of technologys.




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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Leonard Williams]

Portrait.

New rhythm sign at a change or at a new line.  I have some poorly edited
publications in which a rhythm sign is redundantly introduced, and it just
causes confusion.  Consistency within a piece is perhaps the better rule:
new sign only with a change of rhythm or line;  or, all notes using a grid.

There are times in fast passages of many notes per bar that the grid system
visually organizes the notes so that the "beat" can be more easily
maintained.

M2CW
Leonard Williams

On 12/8/08 7:05 AM, "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> David,
> 
> I agree with your preferences, especially about the diapassons.
> 
> FWIW, here are some personal guidelines that have crystalized through the
> years, and this in relation to tablatures only, I'm not talking about grand
> staff or notation:
> 
> 
> Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady
> on the music stand)
> 
> Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to
> read in all respects, also for prima-vista)
> 
> Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score -
> no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.)
> 
> Don't cram the staffs. 6 on one sheet is maximum for my 12-14 point font in
> landscape view
> 
> Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm
> most comfortable with 12-14)
> 
> Wherever possible, slightly reduce "global symbol spacing" to include those
> 2 or three bars on page 2 to avoid a page change
> 
> Include composer name, date of publication and eventual name of publication,
> but also the library and shelf name for easier locating of the original
> facsimile if a manuscript.
> 
> Allow room for pencil marks of ornaments etc.
> 
> Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me)
> (debatable also for letters)
> 
> Make "book" editions instead of single pieces, for easier navigating and
> correcting, as well as global page settings
> 
> Include a few (or many) lines of available information from New Grove or
> original source at beginning or end of book (not forgetting to name the
> contributors when available!) as well as info on personal settings, signs,
> etc. of publication
> 
> And a note to our eminent programmers. Please, please, make works made in
> earlier versions of the program display *perfectly* on the newer version.
> IMO, don't publish a newer version until this is the case!  This is now
> _not_ the case :(
> 
> I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've
> seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other.
> Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to
> read, some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" rhythm signs
> and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy
> but hard to read font.
> 
> IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as
> _easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most
> information possible. A tablature publication should _not_  try to be a work
> of art in that sense - it should mainly be an instrument to enable
> duplication and interpretation of the composers intentions. So I for one
> would prefer to throw those other unhelpful aesthetic considerations
> overboard.
> 
> Modern (as in newly composed) scores will probably have to differ from these
> guidelines in some respects
> 
> I've probably forgotten something, but WTH
> 
> Best
> 
> G.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "David van Ooijen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:54 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] tablature notation guidelines
> 
> 
>> These days there are many software packages enabling everybody to
>> produce tablatures. Many of us do, for free on our websites or in
>> home-made inexpensive editions. Not all of these tablatures are as
>> beautiful, or as easy to read. For the free or inexpensive editions
>> that's fine with me; if the content is interesting I'll read from
>> anything, or make my own version if it's too revolting. I'm glad I
>> could find the music. But in looking at not so inexpensive editions
>> from 'real' publishers, I am repeatedly struck by their far from
>> perfect tablatures, and staff notation for that matter, as well. For
>> staff notation, there are guidelines that help in making decisions on
>> how to solve notational questions. The better engraving software will
>> automatically follow these guidelines. For an example, have a look at
>> http://mpa.org/music_notation/. These guidelines should present
>> musicians with more or less standard sheet music. The benefits are
>> obvious: it's fine to be able to read facsimiles, necessary for us,
>> obviously, but when you're playing in an orchestra and are presented
>> with your part on the day of the rehearsal or the concert, it's nice
>> you don't have to spend time in deciphering what

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Betsy Lahaussois]

   I switched to Mac from Windows, and could no longer use
   Fronimo("Bad Move!" said Francesco, when I asked him how I could
   use Fronimo on my new computer!)  Thanks to someone's tip, I did
   download free from the internet  "Cute PDF", which allowed me to
   transform Fronimo files into PDFs, and  "share" them with myself on
   Macbetter than nothing! Betsy

   On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:03 PM, Guy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   wrote:

 Hit Reply instead of Reply All...
 -Original Message-
 From: Guy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:02 PM
     To: 'Doc Rossi'
 Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
 Word 2007 has a Save to PDF feature (introduced with that version, I
 think).
 Never tried it, though.
 Guy
 -Original Message-
 From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:39 PM
 To: List LUTELIST
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
 For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works
 well.  For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also
 work pretty well.  I remember using one that had Pony in the name
 (sorry to be so vague).
 On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > Hi,
 >  New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and
 had
 > a wonderful lesson with
 > Ed Martin last Thursday.
 >  I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since
 2000.
 > I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night.
 >  What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH
 standardization
 > AND maleability,
 > and I totally understand the need for both.
 >  With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs,
 > the developers do their
 > best to keep their file types proprietary.  This allows them to
 earn
 > a living from selling their
 > programs.  The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user
 > to share files with
 > colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same
 > expensive program.  Add to
 > this that if I haven't "upgraded" (i.e. sent another ton of money
 to
 > the developer) my Finale
 > program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has
 and
 > sends me their newer
 > version.  It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability.
 >  I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this
 > regard.  I realize that for
 > somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could
 > be a time consuming
 > thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could "import",
 > for example, a Fronimo file
 > into Finale, or vice versa?  Or at least be able to change the
 > formatting of a file to suit your
 > taste without having to start entering every character from the
 > beginning?
 >  One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a
 > MIDI file and it will notate it
 > automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting
 > from scratch).
 >  This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
 >  Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps
 other
 > Lute Tablature
 > developers could work together on sharing file types?
 >  All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web
 that
 > I have found so far is
 > PDF.  PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy.
 > Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it
 > usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe
 > Acrobat (not cheap), which
 > incorporates a "printer" called the "Acrobat Distiller".  One must
 > use this feature in order to
 > embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in
 > their computers.
 > Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook.  (I actually got Spiders
 > once!) One can make
 > scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image
 into
 > a graphics program like
 > CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good
 > resolution the scan needs to be at
 > least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200
 > dpi.  Otherwise the end
 > user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being
 blurry.
 >  Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow
 > their users to share files
 > would be a benefit.
 > Tom
 > Tom Draughon
 > Heartistry Music
 > [5]http://www.hear

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Guy Smith]

Hit Reply instead of Reply All...

-Original Message-
From: Guy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:02 PM
To: 'Doc Rossi'
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

Word 2007 has a Save to PDF feature (introduced with that version, I think).
Never tried it, though.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:39 PM
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works  
well.  For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also  
work pretty well.  I remember using one that had Pony in the name  
(sorry to be so vague).

On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi,
>  New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had  
> a wonderful lesson with
> Ed Martin last Thursday.
>  I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000.
> I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night.
>  What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization  
> AND maleability,
> and I totally understand the need for both.
>  With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs,  
> the developers do their
> best to keep their file types proprietary.  This allows them to earn  
> a living from selling their
> programs.  The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user  
> to share files with
> colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same  
> expensive program.  Add to
> this that if I haven't "upgraded" (i.e. sent another ton of money to  
> the developer) my Finale
> program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and  
> sends me their newer
> version.  It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability.
>  I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this  
> regard.  I realize that for
> somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could  
> be a time consuming
> thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could "import",  
> for example, a Fronimo file
> into Finale, or vice versa?  Or at least be able to change the  
> formatting of a file to suit your
> taste without having to start entering every character from the  
> beginning?
>  One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a  
> MIDI file and it will notate it
> automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting  
> from scratch).
>  This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
>  Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other  
> Lute Tablature
> developers could work together on sharing file types?
>  All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that  
> I have found so far is
> PDF.  PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy.   
> Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it
> usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe  
> Acrobat (not cheap), which
> incorporates a "printer" called the "Acrobat Distiller".  One must  
> use this feature in order to
> embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in  
> their computers.
> Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook.  (I actually got Spiders  
> once!) One can make
> scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into  
> a graphics program like
> CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good  
> resolution the scan needs to be at
> least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200  
> dpi.  Otherwise the end
> user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry.
>  Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow  
> their users to share files
> would be a benefit.
> Tom
> Tom Draughon
> Heartistry Music
> http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
> 714  9th Avenue West
> Ashland, WI  54806
> 715-682-9362
>
> On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> See Feynman:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY
>>>
>>
>> Fascinating, captain.  A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
>> meaningless generalities without a single fact.  Completely  
>> illogical.
>>
>> Yours truly.
>>
>> Mr. Spock
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date:  
>> 12/3/2008 9:34 AM
>>
>
>
> Tom Draughon
> Heartistry Music
> http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
> 714  9th Avenue West
> Ashland, WI  54806
> 715-682-9362
>
>

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Doc Rossi]

For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works  
well.  For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also  
work pretty well.  I remember using one that had Pony in the name  
(sorry to be so vague).


On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,
 New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had  
a wonderful lesson with

Ed Martin last Thursday.
 I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000.
I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night.
 What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization  
AND maleability,

and I totally understand the need for both.
 With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs,  
the developers do their
best to keep their file types proprietary.  This allows them to earn  
a living from selling their
programs.  The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user  
to share files with
colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same  
expensive program.  Add to
this that if I haven't "upgraded" (i.e. sent another ton of money to  
the developer) my Finale
program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and  
sends me their newer

version.  It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability.
 I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this  
regard.  I realize that for
somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could  
be a time consuming
thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could "import",  
for example, a Fronimo file
into Finale, or vice versa?  Or at least be able to change the  
formatting of a file to suit your
taste without having to start entering every character from the  
beginning?
 One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a  
MIDI file and it will notate it
automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting  
from scratch).

 This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
 Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other  
Lute Tablature

developers could work together on sharing file types?
 All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that  
I have found so far is
PDF.  PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy.   
Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it
usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe  
Acrobat (not cheap), which
incorporates a "printer" called the "Acrobat Distiller".  One must  
use this feature in order to
embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in  
their computers.
Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook.  (I actually got Spiders  
once!) One can make
scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into  
a graphics program like
CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good  
resolution the scan needs to be at
least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200  
dpi.  Otherwise the end

user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry.
 Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow  
their users to share files

would be a benefit.
Tom
Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote:



See Feynman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY



Fascinating, captain.  A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
meaningless generalities without a single fact.  Completely  
illogical.


Yours truly.

Mr. Spock
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date:  
12/3/2008 9:34 AM





Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[tom]

Hi,
  New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had a 
wonderful lesson with 
Ed Martin last Thursday.
  I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000.
I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night.
  What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization AND 
maleability,
and I totally understand the need for both.
  With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs, the 
developers do their 
best to keep their file types proprietary.  This allows them to earn a living 
from selling their 
programs.  The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user to share 
files with 
colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same expensive 
program.  Add to 
this that if I haven't "upgraded" (i.e. sent another ton of money to the 
developer) my Finale 
program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and sends me 
their newer 
version.  It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability.
  I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this regard.  I 
realize that for 
somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could be a time 
consuming 
thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could "import", for example, 
a Fronimo file 
into Finale, or vice versa?  Or at least be able to change the formatting of a 
file to suit your 
taste without having to start entering every character from the beginning?
  One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a MIDI file 
and it will notate it 
automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from scratch).
  This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
  Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other Lute 
Tablature 
developers could work together on sharing file types?
  All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that I have 
found so far is 
PDF.  PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy.  Unfortunately, to MAKE 
PDFs it 
usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not 
cheap), which 
incorporates a "printer" called the "Acrobat Distiller".  One must use this 
feature in order to 
embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in their 
computers.  
Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook.  (I actually got Spiders once!) One 
can make 
scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into a graphics 
program like 
CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good resolution the scan 
needs to be at 
least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200 dpi.  
Otherwise the end 
user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry.
  Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow their users to 
share files 
would be a benefit.
Tom
Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote:
> 
> >
> > See Feynman:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY
> >
> 
> Fascinating, captain.  A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
> meaningless generalities without a single fact.  Completely illogical.
> 
> Yours truly.
> 
> Mr. Spock
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 
> 9:34 AM
> 


Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[howard posner]

On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote:

>
> See Feynman:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY
>

Fascinating, captain.  A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
meaningless generalities without a single fact.  Completely illogical.

Yours truly.

Mr. Spock
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Sean Smith]

I just think we need the choice. We have half-a-loaf of choice and are 
wondering how we can better work w/ the publishing world. And that 
means the publishing world will start to work w/ our own software. That 
means we have to define our formats, expectations, prices and 
protections and then we'll see what we and the market will bear. Over 
the last 20 centuries many simple distribution models have come and 
gone depending on the technology available. The next century _will_ 
pass too and I'm sure that we'll muddle through it. It's a shake-up. 
Some folks will make out like bandits; some won't.


I'm just thinking that if we get our dialogs and tabs out here we'll 
get a better operating system going as we feel out the first few steps.


Sean


On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:43 AM, G. Crona wrote:


Sean,

you and I seem to be somewhat more in agreement than me and Rainer who 
seem to be antipodic in this matter.


pls. read between the lines...

- Original Message - From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:52 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines




On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:


Hm,


Me too, mmm. I don't mean to "answer" Rainer here but will offer my
responses to the same questions to show my differing taste.



Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or
steady on the music stand)

I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen

I prefer portrait but often play from the screen. One can get two
portrait pages comfortably enough on a screen larger than 17". My 12"
laptop screen really pushes the limit for two pages but may work for a
single landscape page. Unfortunately, that's not a long piece of 
music.


I have a 19" flat screen and two pages is still too small. There is a 
simple solution to the portrait / landscape disagreement though. Just 
flip the flatscreen! ;)
I cant remember how many times I've laboured in making a single 
portrait sheet stand steadily on a music stand. (Easier viewing for 
the audience as well :)



Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much
easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista)

For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system.

And I prefer ciphers only on a change. The raster system like the
English mss. (eg. Board book) makes the page so busy w/ superfluous
information that I find it distracting. I also find the gratuitous use
of a rhythm sign at the beginning of each measure distracting.


We totally agree on this


Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the
score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f.
ex.)

Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar.

I like it on every measure. When working w/ other musicians the 2 or 3
seconds everyone takes as they count from the first measure of that
line (or 5th measure) is distracting. I know this clutters up the page
but the brain quickly learns to disregard them. Yes, I know I stand
virtually alone on this point. A good tab program should give you the
choice.


My distinction was between numbers or _no_ numbers. Each or each 5th 
bar is better than none at all as you may often encounter



Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10
point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14)

That is sort of difficult on paper :)

12-14 works for me. And for any kind of performance I use a bold
variant. Visibility, visibility visibility! Anything smaller means 
that

the music has to be so close as to lose any contact w/ the audience.
What's the point of having a beautiful instrument if your audience 
only

sees a standard issue music stand?


Hear, hear! As a number cruncher, bold italics 12-14 works best for me

Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least 
for

me) (debatable also for letters)

I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through
should be easier to read.
Would you strike through everything in a book?

Ditto! It's pointless to take a perfectly readable typeface and then
run a stupid line through it!


That "stupid line" is so thin, it really does not interfere with the 
visibility of the cipher, while instantly and unequivocally gives the 
right course. If I knew of a hassle free site where I could post an 
example, a GIF would say more than a thousand postings. Any 
suggestions?



I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what
I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like
any other.

Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy
to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" 
rhythm

signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with
some fancy but hard to read font.


One more personal thing I n

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Guy Smith]

Digital versions would be wonderful, although it does create some issues for
a publisher who hopes to make enough money selling the edition to at least
break even.

FWIW, I also play early brass, and I love it when I can find ensemble pieces
in Finale or what have you, rather than just a scanned image. That allows me
to customize the edition to suit the particular needs of our group (shift
the tenor part to bass clef, adjust page breaks, change the key so it better
fits on our instruments,...). I often manually transcribe printed or scanned
versions into Finale just so I can fiddle with the formatting.

-Original Message-
From: Sean Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:51 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines



Well, there you go. I can appreciate that. See, choice is good.

That's if we are designing a program for our personal use. To design a 
standard for what we'd like to see from the published/outside, on-paper 
world gets more difficult.

It may come about that tabs eventually get published in digital format. 
If we had our machines ready and could open the file to change it to 
our preference we'd be good to go.

Maybe the lute societies and webpagers could tell us more about how 
they distribute music on the web and what feedback they get from their 
constituents.


my 2.1 cents
Sean


On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:24 AM, William Brohinsky wrote:

> I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks.
>
> I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the
> in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be
> said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger
> as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more
> pronounced.
>
> That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is
> harder to read than on-lines.
>
> There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, 
> really!
>
> ray
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my 
>> point.
>>
>> G.
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
>> To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>>
>> Yeah!
>>
>>> But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from
>>> tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. 
>>> The
>>> arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!
>>
>> Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Rainer aus dem Spring
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[William Brohinsky]

Question:

If all lute tab publishing is standardized to one specific variety,
based on some overarching consensus, what happens to the art of
reading the other varieties? Won't we be setting ourselves up to
become so wedded to one variety of TAB that there won't be anyone left
in two generations (other, maybe, than doddering nonogenarians) who
can manage transcription from other kinds of Tab?

I'll admit that I'd like french-style baroque tab with a little less
flourish and confusion. But if I don't ever bother to learn to read
it, I won't be able to do anything with manuscripts.

I, for one, don't want that lost.

ray

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Sean Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Well, there you go. I can appreciate that. See, choice is good.
>
> That's if we are designing a program for our personal use. To design a
> standard for what we'd like to see from the published/outside, on-paper
> world gets more difficult.
>
> It may come about that tabs eventually get published in digital format. If
> we had our machines ready and could open the file to change it to our
> preference we'd be good to go.
>
> Maybe the lute societies and webpagers could tell us more about how they
> distribute music on the web and what feedback they get from their
> constituents.
>
>
> my 2.1 cents
> Sean
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:24 AM, William Brohinsky wrote:
>
>> I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks.
>>
>> I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the
>> in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be
>> said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger
>> as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more
>> pronounced.
>>
>> That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is
>> harder to read than on-lines.
>>
>> There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, really!
>>
>> ray
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my point.
>>>
>>> G.
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer"
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
>>> To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>>>
>>> Yeah!
>>>
>>>> But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from
>>>> tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The
>>>> arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!
>>>
>>> Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Rainer aus dem Spring
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Sean Smith]

Well, there you go. I can appreciate that. See, choice is good.

That's if we are designing a program for our personal use. To design a 
standard for what we'd like to see from the published/outside, on-paper 
world gets more difficult.


It may come about that tabs eventually get published in digital format. 
If we had our machines ready and could open the file to change it to 
our preference we'd be good to go.


Maybe the lute societies and webpagers could tell us more about how 
they distribute music on the web and what feedback they get from their 
constituents.



my 2.1 cents
Sean


On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:24 AM, William Brohinsky wrote:


I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks.

I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the
in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be
said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger
as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more
pronounced.

That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is
harder to read than on-lines.

There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, 
really!


ray

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my 
point.


G.

- Original Message - From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines


-Original Message-
From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

Yeah!


But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from
tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. 
The

arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!


Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.




Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[G. Crona]

Sean,

you and I seem to be somewhat more in agreement than me and Rainer who seem 
to be antipodic in this matter.


pls. read between the lines...

- Original Message - 
From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:52 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines




On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:


Hm,


Me too, mmm. I don't mean to "answer" Rainer here but will offer my
responses to the same questions to show my differing taste.



Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or
steady on the music stand)

I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen

I prefer portrait but often play from the screen. One can get two
portrait pages comfortably enough on a screen larger than 17". My 12"
laptop screen really pushes the limit for two pages but may work for a
single landscape page. Unfortunately, that's not a long piece of music.


I have a 19" flat screen and two pages is still too small. There is a simple 
solution to the portrait / landscape disagreement though. Just flip the 
flatscreen! ;)
I cant remember how many times I've laboured in making a single portrait 
sheet stand steadily on a music stand. (Easier viewing for the audience as 
well :)



Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much
easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista)

For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system.

And I prefer ciphers only on a change. The raster system like the
English mss. (eg. Board book) makes the page so busy w/ superfluous
information that I find it distracting. I also find the gratuitous use
of a rhythm sign at the beginning of each measure distracting.


We totally agree on this


Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the
score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f.
ex.)

Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar.

I like it on every measure. When working w/ other musicians the 2 or 3
seconds everyone takes as they count from the first measure of that
line (or 5th measure) is distracting. I know this clutters up the page
but the brain quickly learns to disregard them. Yes, I know I stand
virtually alone on this point. A good tab program should give you the
choice.


My distinction was between numbers or _no_ numbers. Each or each 5th bar is 
better than none at all as you may often encounter



Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10
point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14)

That is sort of difficult on paper :)

12-14 works for me. And for any kind of performance I use a bold
variant. Visibility, visibility visibility! Anything smaller means that
the music has to be so close as to lose any contact w/ the audience.
What's the point of having a beautiful instrument if your audience only
sees a standard issue music stand?


Hear, hear! As a number cruncher, bold italics 12-14 works best for me


Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for
me) (debatable also for letters)

I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through
should be easier to read.
Would you strike through everything in a book?

Ditto! It's pointless to take a perfectly readable typeface and then
run a stupid line through it!


That "stupid line" is so thin, it really does not interfere with the 
visibility of the cipher, while instantly and unequivocally gives the right 
course. If I knew of a hassle free site where I could post an example, a GIF 
would say more than a thousand postings. Any suggestions?



I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what
I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like
any other.

Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy
to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" rhythm
signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with
some fancy but hard to read font.


One more personal thing I need is to seperate long passaggi into groups
of 4 (or 6 if nec.). When flying along on consort music or Terzi that
little dot below doesn't do enough to show me where the larger beat is
or show me my place if I have to check my fingering. (btw, words and
text have been doing this to great advantage for years!)

If the tab program doesn't let me do this easily then it's essentially
useless for performance reading. I do a lot of work in the two Fronimos
but for performance I ALWAYS copy it into Fronimo 2.1 for this very
reason.


Did you notice, how tabs made in 2.1 come out _rather_ different in 3.x?


I also prefer the choice of creating more space for longer note values.
I take a lot of info in by peripheral vision and knowing where the long
notes are coming up helps in interpretation.


The bar sizes (widths) al

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[William Brohinsky]

I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks.

I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the
in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be
said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger
as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more
pronounced.

That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is
harder to read than on-lines.

There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, really!

ray

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my point.
>
> G.
>
> - Original Message - From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
> To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
>
> Yeah!
>
>> But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from
>> tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The
>> arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!
>
> Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.
>
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rainer aus dem Spring
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[G. Crona]

If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my point.

G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Spring, aus dem, Rainer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines


-Original Message-
From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

Yeah!

But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from 
tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The 
arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!


Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.




Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Guy Smith]

Likewise. I can play OK from either, but I prefer tab between the lines, not
on them. I doubt you can make a clearcut case for either; I think it's more
a matter of preference/habit.

Any tablature guidelines that you come up with need to accommodate the fact
that different people are going to have different preferences about things
like on/off the line symbols, fonts, even things like how many measures to a
stave and staves to a page (I like to be able to pack them in or stretch
them out if necessary to avoid awkward breaks). I'd also prefer flexibility
in measure numbering, although that's more important for accompaniment or
ensemble playing.

-Original Message-
From: Spring, aus dem, Rainer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:51 AM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

-Original Message-
From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

Yeah!

>But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from
tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The
arguement >that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!

Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.




Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring


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To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Sean Smith]

On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:


Hm,

Me too, mmm. I don't mean to "answer" Rainer here but will offer my 
responses to the same questions to show my differing taste.


Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or 
steady on the music stand)

I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen
I prefer portrait but often play from the screen. One can get two 
portrait pages comfortably enough on a screen larger than 17". My 12" 
laptop screen really pushes the limit for two pages but may work for a 
single landscape page. Unfortunately, that's not a long piece of music.



Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much 
easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista)

For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system.
And I prefer ciphers only on a change. The raster system like the 
English mss. (eg. Board book) makes the page so busy w/ superfluous 
information that I find it distracting. I also find the gratuitous use 
of a rhythm sign at the beginning of each measure distracting.





Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the 
score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. 
ex.)

Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar.
I like it on every measure. When working w/ other musicians the 2 or 3 
seconds everyone takes as they count from the first measure of that 
line (or 5th measure) is distracting. I know this clutters up the page 
but the brain quickly learns to disregard them. Yes, I know I stand 
virtually alone on this point. A good tab program should give you the 
choice.





Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 
point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14)

That is sort of difficult on paper :)
12-14 works for me. And for any kind of performance I use a bold 
variant. Visibility, visibility visibility! Anything smaller means that 
the music has to be so close as to lose any contact w/ the audience. 
What's the point of having a beautiful instrument if your audience only 
sees a standard issue music stand?




Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for 
me) (debatable also for letters)
I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through 
should be easier to read.

Would you strike through everything in a book?
Ditto! It's pointless to take a perfectly readable typeface and then 
run a stupid line through it!



I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what 
I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like 
any other.
Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy 
to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" rhythm 
signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with 
some fancy but hard to read font.


One more personal thing I need is to seperate long passaggi into groups 
of 4 (or 6 if nec.). When flying along on consort music or Terzi that 
little dot below doesn't do enough to show me where the larger beat is 
or show me my place if I have to check my fingering. (btw, words and 
text have been doing this to great advantage for years!)


If the tab program doesn't let me do this easily then it's essentially 
useless for performance reading. I do a lot of work in the two Fronimos 
but for performance I ALWAYS copy it into Fronimo 2.1 for this very 
reason.


I also prefer the choice of creating more space for longer note values. 
I take a lot of info in by peripheral vision and knowing where the long 
notes are coming up helps in interpretation.


My father was a layout editor for many years and taught me the value of 
what works for the eyes and how the brain subconsciously uses it. 
Maybe, on the other hand, I'm crippled by my visual standards but I 
have to feel comfortable about what I put on the music stand in front 
of people.


my 2 cents,
Sean







To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Spring, aus dem, Rainer]

-Original Message-
From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

Yeah!

>But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature 
>on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement >that 
>its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!

Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should.




Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring


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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[G. Crona]

Yeah!

But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from 
tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The 
arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely!


G.

- Original Message - 
From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "List LUTELIST" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines



On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:


Would you strike through everything in a book?


It would be a great improvement in many books.


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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[howard posner]

On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:

> Would you strike through everything in a book?

It would be a great improvement in many books.


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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Spring, aus dem, Rainer]

Hm,




>Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on 
>the music stand)
I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen


>Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to 
>read in all respects, also for prima-vista)
For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system.


>Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no 
>numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.)
Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar.


>Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm 
>most comfortable with 12-14)
That is sort of difficult on paper :)



>Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) 
>(debatable also for letters)
I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through should be 
easier to read.
Would you strike through everything in a book?


>I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen 
>these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other.
Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, 
some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" rhythm signs and also 
those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to 
read font.

I prefer those '"raster" rhythm signs'.


>IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as 
>_easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most information 
>possible.

You can't square the circle.

>A tablature publication should _not_  try to be a work of art in that sense - 
>it should mainly be an instrument to enable duplication and interpretation of 
>the composers intentions. So I for one would prefer to throw those other 
>unhelpful aesthetic considerations overboard.

Composer intentions?
Nobody knows Dowland's intentions.


Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring


IT & Business Solutions Division


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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[G. Crona]

David,

I agree with your preferences, especially about the diapassons.

FWIW, here are some personal guidelines that have crystalized through the 
years, and this in relation to tablatures only, I'm not talking about grand 
staff or notation:



Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady 
on the music stand)


Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to 
read in all respects, also for prima-vista)


Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - 
no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.)


Don't cram the staffs. 6 on one sheet is maximum for my 12-14 point font in 
landscape view


Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm 
most comfortable with 12-14)


Wherever possible, slightly reduce "global symbol spacing" to include those 
2 or three bars on page 2 to avoid a page change


Include composer name, date of publication and eventual name of publication, 
but also the library and shelf name for easier locating of the original 
facsimile if a manuscript.


Allow room for pencil marks of ornaments etc.

Tablature numbers "on" lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) 
(debatable also for letters)


Make "book" editions instead of single pieces, for easier navigating and 
correcting, as well as global page settings


Include a few (or many) lines of available information from New Grove or 
original source at beginning or end of book (not forgetting to name the 
contributors when available!) as well as info on personal settings, signs, 
etc. of publication


And a note to our eminent programmers. Please, please, make works made in 
earlier versions of the program display *perfectly* on the newer version. 
IMO, don't publish a newer version until this is the case!  This is now 
_not_ the case :(


I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've 
seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. 
Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to 
read, some are quite difficult, like those with the "raster" rhythm signs 
and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy 
but hard to read font.


IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as 
_easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most 
information possible. A tablature publication should _not_  try to be a work 
of art in that sense - it should mainly be an instrument to enable 
duplication and interpretation of the composers intentions. So I for one 
would prefer to throw those other unhelpful aesthetic considerations 
overboard.


Modern (as in newly composed) scores will probably have to differ from these 
guidelines in some respects


I've probably forgotten something, but WTH

Best

G.


- Original Message - 
From: "David van Ooijen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: [LUTE] tablature notation guidelines



These days there are many software packages enabling everybody to
produce tablatures. Many of us do, for free on our websites or in
home-made inexpensive editions. Not all of these tablatures are as
beautiful, or as easy to read. For the free or inexpensive editions
that's fine with me; if the content is interesting I'll read from
anything, or make my own version if it's too revolting. I'm glad I
could find the music. But in looking at not so inexpensive editions
from 'real' publishers, I am repeatedly struck by their far from
perfect tablatures, and staff notation for that matter, as well. For
staff notation, there are guidelines that help in making decisions on
how to solve notational questions. The better engraving software will
automatically follow these guidelines. For an example, have a look at
http://mpa.org/music_notation/. These guidelines should present
musicians with more or less standard sheet music. The benefits are
obvious: it's fine to be able to read facsimiles, necessary for us,
obviously, but when you're playing in an orchestra and are presented
with your part on the day of the rehearsal or the concert, it's nice
you don't have to spend time in deciphering what the editor meant.

So, in stead of complaining about the poor output of such and such
software, engraver or publisher, wouldn't it be nice to have some
guidelines to help all of us make better tablatures? Yes, that should
include simple things like b's and d's running into each other, g's
that look like a's with an ornament, i's that lack a dot (or are these
l's?). There are many, many aspects that are time and place dependant
- I like to read my Ballard in another font than my Gaultier, I like
different flag rules for Dowland than for Weiss - but I wouldn't want
ciphers run into each other in either, and clumsy diapasson notation
is unwanted in all. The various solutions people have found to notate
ornam

[LUTE] Re: Tablature Fonts for Mac

[Eric Crouch]

I have imported Fronimo fonts for use in Sibelius on OS X, and  
presumably you could use them with other programs. I can't remember if  
I needed to convert them to make them 'Mac friendly', but I could  
email you copies that work if you are interested.


The fonts are, of course, subject to copyright, so I asked Francesco  
Tribioli whether it was ok to use them. He replied as follows:
"actually the fonts are available for any non commercial use, so you  
and anyone can use them freely. Of course I would prefer if the  
lutenists used my fonts in Fronimo, not only as evident for the  
additional licensees that this would bring ;^), but because I think  
that the fonts work better in my program because it uses some feature  
of the fonts (as different characters to avoid too messy collisions)  
that are not available outside Fronimo." (Later he also indicated that  
publication by the Lute Society would count as 'non-commercial'.)


The point he makes about avoiding collisions is relevant; I have been  
using Fronimo Gavotta in Sibelius to transcribe Thomas Mace and to  
avoid the occasional collision I sometimes need to put a note into a  
second voice and move it sideways.


Also, thinking about freely available fonts, have you looked at Apple  
Chancery, Comic Sans, Lucida Calligraphy, Lucida Blackletter, Bradley  
Hand, or Skia?


Eric Crouch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On 7 Oct 2008, at 10:26, Doc Rossi wrote:

Has anyone got any suggestions for nice-looking French tablature  
fonts for Mac OS X?


Thanks,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

[Martyn Hodgson]

Lex made the same point earlier but you're assuming all theorbo players played 
guitar. We know some did but was it general...

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Dear All:
Wouldn't any competent theorbo player be able to pick up a guitar to 
accompany a comical or "Spanish" scene? I would expect that to be the case. 
And wasn't it common for a player to play both instruments? So the absence of 
a "guitar player" doesn't necessarily mean no guitar was used.
And whether or not he scrawled some alfabeto chords on his part, such parts 
are unlikely to have survived. 
Cheers,
Jim

From: Lex Eisenhardt 
Date: 2008/01/19 Sat AM 04:41:57 CST
To: Martyn Hodgson , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

As you probably know there are a few references to guitars and early stage 
performances (Cavalieri, Landi, Rossi). Even if the guitar is mentioned there 
is never any alfabeto printed in the scores, although it seems that in a few 
occasions it is written in by hand. Most likely the guitar was only put on 
the stage in comical, exotic or pastoral scenes. Played by dancers and 
singers, as an emblem of another world. I doubt if there will be many names 
of guitarists (specificly mentioned as such, not the theorbo player) on the 
payrolls. It would be very useful knowledge indeed.

Lex


A good point - but it would, of course, be useful to see at least one 
reference to a guitarist in the lists. Much work has been done on English 
theatre lists but I'm ignorant of the state of research into Italian opera 
house lists (assuming they exist other than a few freak survivals).

Martyn

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[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

[Martyn Hodgson]

Yes, I wouldn't expect to see 'guitar part' alfabeto etc in opera scores, much 
as I wouldn't expect to see an intabulated theorbo part either.
   
  Martyn
  
Lex Eisenhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  As you probably know there are a few references to guitars and early 
stage performances (Cavalieri, Landi, Rossi). Even if the guitar is mentioned 
there is never any alfabeto printed in the scores, although it seems that in a 
few occasions it is written in by hand. Most likely the guitar was only put on 
the stage in comical, exotic or pastoral scenes. Played by dancers and singers, 
as an emblem of another world. I doubt if there will be many names of 
guitarists (specificly mentioned as such, not the theorbo player) on the 
payrolls. It would be very useful knowledge indeed.
   
  Lex
  

A good point - but it would, of course, be useful to see at least one 
reference to a guitarist in the lists. Much work has been done on English 
theatre lists but I'm ignorant of the state of research into Italian opera 
house lists (assuming they exist other than a few freak survivals).
   
  Martyn



   
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[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

[jslute]

Dear All:
 Wouldn't any competent theorbo player be able to pick up a guitar to 
accompany a comical or "Spanish" scene? I would expect that to be the case. 
And wasn't it common for a player to play both instruments? So the absence of 
a "guitar player" doesn't necessarily mean no guitar was used.
 And whether or not he scrawled some alfabeto chords on his part, such parts 
are unlikely to have survived. 
Cheers,
Jim

From: Lex Eisenhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2008/01/19 Sat AM 04:41:57 CST
To: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

As you probably know there are a few references to guitars and early stage 
performances (Cavalieri, Landi, Rossi). Even if the guitar is mentioned there 
is never any alfabeto printed in the scores, although it seems that in a few 
occasions it is written in by hand. Most likely the guitar was only put on 
the stage in comical, exotic or pastoral scenes. Played by dancers and 
singers, as an emblem of another world. I doubt if there will be many names 
of guitarists (specificly mentioned as such, not the theorbo player) on the 
payrolls. It would be very useful knowledge indeed.

Lex


  A good point - but it would, of course, be useful to see at least one 
reference to a guitarist in the lists. Much work has been done on English 
theatre lists but I'm ignorant of the state of research into Italian opera 
house lists (assuming they exist other than a few freak survivals).

  Martyn

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[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

[Martyn Hodgson]

A good point - but it would, of course, be useful to see at least one reference 
to a guitarist in the lists. Much work has been done on English theatre lists 
but I'm ignorant of the state of research into Italian opera house lists 
(assuming they exist other than a few freak survivals).
   
  Martyn

Lex Eisenhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
Related to this: are you aware if any lists of players at the 17thC/early 18thC 
Italian Opera Houses listing theorbos, harpsichords players also showing 
guitarists.?

Martyn

The theorbist can also play the guitar. Normally not at the same time...

Lex

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[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC

[Lex Eisenhardt]

..and another...




 > The exercises in the books by Corbetta et al include examples showing
> which
> alfabeto chords match the the notes of the bass part e.g. The Regola per
> sonar sopra la parte on p.70 on Corbetta's are surely intended to help
> the
> player devise a strummed accompaniment.

 This type of rule of thumb already appeared in the earliest alfabeto
songbooks. Application of these rules leads in many occasions to completely
wrong harmonies. Of course Corbetta knew that, and in the following pages
(you were probably speaking of his book from 1643 ?) he has given a lot more
cadences, based on the figures of the bass. For that he had to step outside
the rigid system of alfabeto and start plucking. Others (earlier figures)
like Biagio Marini, Domenico Obizzi and Pietro Millioni have used alfabeto
in a more sensible way, often just ignoring the line of the bass. That has
resulted in a fine, guitaristic version of early continuo. Already in 1981
Robert Strizich has pointed at harmonic conflicts between the alfabeto
harmonies and the top melody, in songs of Kapsberger. This is by no means an
isolated case.

 > It is also self-evident that the
> accompaniments to the vocal pieces in Corbetta's Guitarre royale of 1671
> are
> intended to be mostly strummed.   Why else should he put the note values
> on
> the stave rather than above it?

Mostly strummed indeed, but not all. As far as the available sources seem to
imply, Corbetta's accompaniments have not become standard procedure. With
Grenerin and Matteis (as well as Sanz and de Murcia) there are considerably
fewer battuto chords. In plucked harmonies the chord position--and with that
the position of the bass--is much more an issue. These composers have made
an attempt to use the guitar for a real basso continuo, whereas in La
Guitarre royalle Corbetta is still somewhere halfway the early battuto
practice.

Diligently as ever,
Lex




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