[LUTE] Re: Flying theorbo
Dear David, Thanks for sharing this - it's fantastic! Martin David Van Edwards wrote: >Dear All, > >I apologise for the blatant advertising but some of you may be >interested in seeing the "folding" theorbo I have recently made for >Lynda Sayce, which is designed to pack up small enough to fit into a >standard airline seat. >http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/40a.htm > >This has been a long time in the planning and making but it took its >successful maiden flight last week. > >Best wishes, > >David > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flying theorbo
Japanese shamisen (three string banjo-type instruments) can be taken apart in a similar fashion. The neck has two joints that slide into eachother. The body also slides over one of the neck parts, so it can be taken apart completely, put into a box and carried by a geisha from one appointment in a teahouse to the next. My shamisen is over 50 years old, and the joints still fit perfectly. I can put the middle part of the neck two ways, even, without feeling the joint. I can see the joint, though, as the parts are made of different pieces of wood. The joint shows hairlines exactly at fifth and seventh 'fret' positions, a very convenient visual aid, as a shamisen doesn't have frets. Just likes David van Edwards' foldable theorbo, the strings are kept at bridge and pegs for greater convenience and longevity. David - Original Message - From: "David Van Edwards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Flying theorbo > Dear All, > > I apologise for the blatant advertising but some of you may be > interested in seeing the "folding" theorbo I have recently made for > Lynda Sayce, which is designed to pack up small enough to fit into a > standard airline seat. > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/40a.htm > > This has been a long time in the planning and making but it took its > successful maiden flight last week. > > Best wishes, > > David > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Flying theorbo
Well done! But scary pics as well ... Martin de Witte, lute maker from the Netherlands, has made something similar for an ex-student of mine, Hank Heijink, some years ago. He flies with it around the world. And years before that Toyohiko used to have a theorbo that didn't fit into his sportscar, talking about luxury problems, so he had the neck hinged or something. Took him some time to find a maker willing to put a saw into the instrument. But as soon as he bought a bigger car, child seat needed on the back seat, he traded the foldable theorbo for a 'real' one. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: "David Van Edwards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Flying theorbo > Dear All, > > I apologise for the blatant advertising but some of you may be > interested in seeing the "folding" theorbo I have recently made for > Lynda Sayce, which is designed to pack up small enough to fit into a > standard airline seat. > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/40a.htm > > This has been a long time in the planning and making but it took its > successful maiden flight last week. > > Best wishes, > > David > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Flying theorbo
Dear David, Now will your next theorbo be made out of mylar? We had that wonderful exhibition of 129 guitars at the Museum of Fine Arts here in Boston. 140,000 people saw the exhibition. You've probably seen the book based on it, "Dangerous Curves, " by Darcie Kuronen, the curator Anyway, the guitars were exhibited in approximate chronological order, and one of the last was a "travel" guitar that was made of mylar (a plastic film). If you wanted to play it, you blew it up like a balloon. Some kids were playing one that they had for sale in the gift shop ($4000!). Electronic And it sounded OK. OK if you like that kind of sound, that is. Anyway, congratualtions on your theorbo for Lynda. Such a beautiful instrument. That must have been quite a challenge, requiring a great deal of ingenuity! In a sense it was a test of your skills as a luthier!! Bravo! Best, Arthur. - Original Message - From: "David Van Edwards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Flying theorbo > Dear All, > > I apologise for the blatant advertising but some of > you may be > interested in seeing the "folding" theorbo I have > recently made for > Lynda Sayce, which is designed to pack up small enough > to fit into a > standard airline seat. > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/40a.htm > > This has been a long time in the planning and making > but it took its > successful maiden flight last week. > > Best wishes, > > David > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Flying theorbo
Dear All, I apologise for the blatant advertising but some of you may be interested in seeing the "folding" theorbo I have recently made for Lynda Sayce, which is designed to pack up small enough to fit into a standard airline seat. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/40a.htm This has been a long time in the planning and making but it took its successful maiden flight last week. Best wishes, David -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of the unhistorical theorbo
Diego and all, --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Anyway, most of the survived instruments (and also > my theorbo) can mount > double strings. > From this I can assume that we all play > unhistorically single mounted > theorbos... Actually, there's quite clear iconographic evidence to support single strings in both Italy and France. Just two important ones that I've got at hand at the moment: (Diego, perhaps you were saying this tongue in cheek? I know you must be very familiar with the following source from your excellent recording of it.) Castaldi's 'Capricci a due stromenti' features engravings of seven theorbos. Of these, four have obstructed views of the fingerboard headstocks, but we can make out three. (The numbers of strings vary. It seems that the artist just dashed off a random number of lines to give the impression.) The engraving showing two theorbo players is unclear, but it seems as though the instrument on the left has three or four pegs on the top side of the pegbox. However, both the (left) theorbo on the title page and the one that Castaldi holds in his portrait obviously only have six pegs on the fingerboard. What's more, they were both _made_ to hold only six pegs, judging from the short length of the well carved into the neck extension. Gaultier's "La Rhetorique des dieux" includes illustrations of four theorbos, all of which can unambiguosly be seen to carry six pegs on the lower pegbox. It is important to note that the artist chose to include this detail because the carved wells of all of the pegboxs are twice as long, the unoccupied upper portion no doubt originally meant to hold more, absent, pegs. Here's an example of single-stringing by choice rather than design. As for the physics of double-stringing (no doubt this was done, too) - we're leaving out the single biggest factor: the strings. Although many folks have made valiant efforts, our modern gut is simply not the same stuff. Again, just to use these two sources... 'Capricci' has a cherub stringing a lute, holding the string up to test its trueness. The extra, unheld portion gently falls to the ground like over-cooked pasta. Every string instrument in 'La Rhetorique' has excess string at the pegs which curls up almost enough to make an afro wig. We all know there are many, many, many more such examples. However, if I was to try to force my - very expensive - modern gut string to curl up into such a tight curve by, say, wrapping it around my finger or a candlestick, I'd end up with a nicely segmented polygon instead. So, how can we be so sure that our modern gut is "close enough" or "at least closer than sythetics" to be making pronouncements about what type of instruments we should or should not be playing? Not enough for my money. (But, please, keep trying!) Chris Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of the unhistorical theorbo
At 14:16 +0200 19/6/07, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >My theorbo (copy of an original by Matteo Sellas) is 80/161. The size is >quite usual in historical instruments. > > >Diego Cantalupi > Dear Diego, Which Sellas original is it copied from? I can't find any of that size. There's the small one of 76cm in Brussels but the ones in Paris are quite a bit larger than 80 and none that I know of are near 80cm. Best wishes, David -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] The mystery of the unhistorical theorbo
My theorbo (copy of an original by Matteo Sellas) is 80/161. The size is quite usual in historical instruments. I can't imagine playing Castaldi or Kapsberger on a 95 cm instrument... Also I can't imagine to have an instrument for any single pitch ! My instrument is stringed with plain gut. With two strings lowered, it works well, both at G (440) and A (415 or 440). At A 415, for example, I can use a second string of 0.44 mm. with a tension of 5 kg. The 6th works quite well with 1.18 mm. and 3.71 Kg., but I sometimes use an overwound string. The main problem with plain gut is the timbric difference from 6th (fingered) to 7th. Anyway, most of the survived instruments (and also my theorbo) can mount double strings. >From this I can assume that we all play unhistorically single mounted theorbos... With double strings, I can add an octave on the 6th, just to avoid timbric difference with the 7th. Octave doubling was quite common also in guitar tuning and experimenting was also a common practice of baroque lute players. Diego Cantalupi - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Lute Net Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] The mystery of "theorbo": some physics Like all lutes, theorboes were pitched according to size so as to get the best sound from the lowest fingered plain gut strings (usually 6th course on theorboes) whilst remaining within the working stress of the highest course (usually 3rd). Accordingly your small theorbo (if existing then) of 80cm fingered string length would have been pitched considerably higher than 415 (around 470/480): the breaking stress on a high octave 2nd course would therefore be exceeded. You can't have it both ways: either the instrument is pitched so low that the basses are not strong enough or so high that the highest pitched string breaks. The problem is that overwound strings allow smaller instruments to be tuned at a lower pitch for their size whilst still producing a reasonably strong bass. Since smaller instruments are easier to play and closer to the lute, some choose to use such instruments: this, I presume, is for convenience rather than trying to reproduce something closer to what the 'Old Ones' would have expected and their auditors heard. As said, this was covered earlier and you may care to look in the archives. Also see Lynda Sayce's comments on theorbo sizes on her website. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Martyn Hodgson" wrote: [...] if we use a proper size instrument (ie not an implausible 'toy' theorbo), against the laws of physics. Let's assume a string lenght of 80 cm. It's not a toy, but a theorbo usable for solo music (i.e. the Mantuan 18 courses instrument). The 'breaking index' for gut is about 240 and I can calculate the highest frequency reachable for a gut string of a given lenght using this formula: highest frequency = 240 / lenght in meters that is highest frequency: 240 / 0.8 = 300 Hz. 300 Hz. is a little lower than a 'e' at 415. We also must consider that the tuning of the thorbo in G was not unusual: have a look in Praetorius, De Organographia, p. 27. Also Banchieri (L'organo suonarino, p. 43) give a G tuning with only the first string lowered. So the octave stringing of a 2nd course is all but against the laws of physics! Regarding the 'historical evidence', we mus suppose an alternative tuning, not only for Meli, but also for Pittoni. Sometimes 'historical evidence' means a stroke of luck: I can't immagine the situation for baroque guitar stringing without the discovery of the small paper by Stradivari about the inversion of the octave strings... Diego Cantalupi -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of "theorbo"
Ciao all, > Regarding the 'historical evidence', we mus suppose an alternative > tuning, not only for Meli, but also for Pittoni. So, as far I understand, the tuning of Melij and Pittoni still today is a mystery... :-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of "theorbo": some physics
Like all lutes, theorboes were pitched according to size so as to get the best sound from the lowest fingered plain gut strings (usually 6th course on theorboes) whilst remaining within the working stress of the highest course (usually 3rd). Accordingly your small theorbo (if existing then) of 80cm fingered string length would have been pitched considerably higher than 415 (around 470/480): the breaking stress on a high octave 2nd course would therefore be exceeded. You can't have it both ways: either the instrument is pitched so low that the basses are not strong enough or so high that the highest pitched string breaks. The problem is that overwound strings allow smaller instruments to be tuned at a lower pitch for their size whilst still producing a reasonably strong bass. Since smaller instruments are easier to play and closer to the lute, some choose to use such instruments: this, I presume, is for convenience rather than trying to reproduce something closer to what the 'Old Ones' would have expected and their auditors heard. As said, this was covered earlier and you may care to look in the archives. Also see Lynda Sayce's comments on theorbo sizes on her website. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Martyn Hodgson" wrote: [...] if we use a proper size instrument (ie not an implausible 'toy' theorbo), against the laws of physics. Let's assume a string lenght of 80 cm. It's not a toy, but a theorbo usable for solo music (i.e. the Mantuan 18 courses instrument). The 'breaking index' for gut is about 240 and I can calculate the highest frequency reachable for a gut string of a given lenght using this formula: highest frequency = 240 / lenght in meters that is highest frequency: 240 / 0.8 = 300 Hz. 300 Hz. is a little lower than a 'e' at 415. We also must consider that the tuning of the thorbo in G was not unusual: have a look in Praetorius, De Organographia, p. 27. Also Banchieri (L'organo suonarino, p. 43) give a G tuning with only the first string lowered. So the octave stringing of a 2nd course is all but against the laws of physics! Regarding the 'historical evidence', we mus suppose an alternative tuning, not only for Meli, but also for Pittoni. Sometimes 'historical evidence' means a stroke of luck: I can't immagine the situation for baroque guitar stringing without the discovery of the small paper by Stradivari about the inversion of the octave strings... Diego Cantalupi -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... --
[LUTE] The mystery of "theorbo": some physics
"Martyn Hodgson" wrote: [...] if we use a proper size instrument (ie not an implausible 'toy' theorbo), against the laws of physics. Let's assume a string lenght of 80 cm. It's not a toy, but a theorbo usable for solo music (i.e. the Mantuan 18 courses instrument). The 'breaking index' for gut is about 240 and I can calculate the highest frequency reachable for a gut string of a given lenght using this formula: highest frequency = 240 / lenght in meters that is highest frequency: 240 / 0.8 = 300 Hz. 300 Hz. is a little lower than a 'e' at 415. We also must consider that the tuning of the thorbo in G was not unusual: have a look in Praetorius, De Organographia, p. 27. Also Banchieri (L'organo suonarino, p. 43) give a G tuning with only the first string lowered. So the octave stringing of a 2nd course is all but against the laws of physics! Regarding the 'historical evidence', we mus suppose an alternative tuning, not only for Meli, but also for Pittoni. Sometimes 'historical evidence' means a stroke of luck: I can't immagine the situation for baroque guitar stringing without the discovery of the small paper by Stradivari about the inversion of the octave strings... Diego Cantalupi -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of "theorbo" pieces by Melij?
The tuning of the tiorba for M's music was discussed at length some time ago - you'll find it in the archives. Despite some wishful thinking, there's no historical evidence for octave stringing on the 2nd and, if we use a proper size instrument (ie not an implausible 'toy' theorbo), against the laws of physics. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear lutenists, what might be the current opinion of the pieces "Per la Tiorba" in the Libro Quinto of P.P. Melli? Just played them through by theorbo and by archlute: Both are problematic, but I think archlute has less problems! Any recent research? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your freeaccount today. --
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of "theorbo" pieces by Melij?
On Monday, Jun 18, 2007, at 17:21 America/Los_Angeles, Mathias Rösel wrote: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> >> Any recent research? > > One suggestion I heard of is that both fundamental and and octave > strings are required for the 1st and 2nd courses. Not so recent any more, but Andrea Damiani's article about it is at: http://www.marincola.com/lutebot7.txt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The mystery of "theorbo" pieces by Melij?
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > what might be the current opinion of the pieces "Per la Tiorba" in the > Libro Quinto of P.P. Melli? Just played them through by theorbo and by > archlute: > Both are problematic, but I think archlute has less problems! > > Any recent research? One suggestion I heard of is that both fundamental and and octave strings are required for the 1st and 2nd courses. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] The mystery of "theorbo" pieces by Melij?
Dear lutenists, what might be the current opinion of the pieces "Per la Tiorba" in the Libro Quinto of P.P. Melli? Just played them through by theorbo and by archlute: Both are problematic, but I think archlute has less problems! Any recent research? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Holborne, was Theorbo tutor
Dear Stewart, you are right, there is a transcription in grand staff, and that may well be the reason for the edition. However, I have the feeling that our wonderful lute society editions are not that present outside of our club, and that's a pity. You know too well what amount of time and work is required for critical editions and even facsimiles. If I make a search in the KVK, a German national and international online library catalogue, I get around 30 hits for "lute society" in Germany, for "Ut Orpheus" I get around 1800. So it's easy to guess which Holborne edition is going to be in the shelves of our university libraries for the next couple of hundred years... Regards, Stephan Am 20 May 2007 um 21:38 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben: > Dear Stephan, > > If you click on a sample page, you can see that the new edition has a > transcription into staff notation. Rainer's edition gives tablature > only, so the new edition might appeal to people who can't read > tablature. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > - Original Message - > From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:54 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Holborne, was Theorbo tutor > > > > By looking through the Utorpheus pages I noticed that they have a > > brand new Holborne edition available. Can anyone imagine why this > > would be necessary in our small lute world? We have an excellent one > > by Rainer aus dem Spring, published by the English lute society! > > > > Regards, > > > > Stephan > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Holborne, was Theorbo tutor
By looking through the Utorpheus pages I noticed that they have a brand new Holborne edition available. Can anyone imagine why this would be necessary in our small lute world? We have an excellent one by Rainer aus dem Spring, published by the English lute society! Regards, Stephan Am 20 May 2007 um 14:41 hat Bernd Haegemann geschrieben: > > Players: Luciano Còntini, Francesca Torelli > > When I had a look at Signora Torellis homepage > > http://www.francescatorelli.com/ > > I found out that > she brought out just now a theorbo tutor. Perhaps of interest for some > of us. (I get not royalties :-)) > > http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/product_info.php?products_id=1550 > > best wishes > Bernd > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
Ed, Wow, thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it. And wha timing - I need to mention one important thing in conjunction with this album, however. "Charles Hurel: Works for Theorbo; Christopher Wilke, theorbo," formerly a self-release with a different title, is now available with Centaur Records. When I say "now" however, it is actually so new that its not entirely in their system yet. The LSA has a few copies, but it should be a few days before the album is available from Centaur's website -www.centaurrecords.com. (I don't even have it yet.) Thanks again, Ed for your kind words! Chris --- Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am glad you mentioned Hurel, Chris. I want to say > that your theorbo CD > of Hurel is excellent, and I encourage those on this > list without a copy > can get it from the Lute Society of America. It is > a welcome edition to > recorded theorbo CD's! Well done! > > ed > > At 02:36 PM 5/3/2007 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > >Nigel, > > > > > > I'm going to leave the "virtually the same > >instrument" part out of the question for the > moment. > >The whole debate over double vs. single string as > well > >as Italian vs. French performance practice could > get > >ugly. > > > > I use the essentially the same technique for > >Castaldi, Pittoni, Hurel and de Visee. What I do > is > >basically thumb-over using thumb-index-middle maybe > >75-80% of the time. The re-entrant tuning of the > >theorbo means that I use the ring finger more > >frequently on theorbo than, say, baroque lute. > > > > We know that Kapsberger did not use the > right > >hand ring finger at all since he planted it along > with > >the little finger on the top. He also uses the % > sign > >- meaning some variation of individually-fingered > (as > >opposed to strummed or raked) arpeggio depending on > >the number and disposition of notes in the chord - > on > >all chords with more than three notes. He does > this > >even on four-note chords that could easily have > been > >blocked using the ring finger. I make a real > effort > >not use the ring finger in Kapsberger's music > because > >I find that it has a huge effect on the > interpretation > >and sound of the music. I don't remember what > >Piccinini specifies, but the three-finger approach > >seems to work pretty well for everything I've > played > >by him, too. > > > > In general, other than the case of > Kapsberger, I > >try not to be too pedantic about it. I think right > >hand fingering for theorbo needs to be the most > >flexible and indiosyncratic approaches to a lute > >instrument - just look at how many times you end up > >using the index or even ring finger on the strong > >beat! > > > > > >Chris > > > > > >--- Nigel Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I have been following the thread of how lute > > > technique changed over the > > > years to suit new instruments and fashion. Does > this > > > mean we should not > > > use the same right hand technique to play the > > > theorbo (chitaronne) > > > pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a > century > > > later, even though > > > virtually the same instrument is being played? > > > > > > Nigel > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > >__ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - > Release Date: 5/2/2007 > >2:16 PM > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
David, Its rare, but he does use it. Seems to show up mostly in ascending arpeggios within preludes. This happens very prominently in the E Minor Prelude on p.308 of Saizenay after the first chord and bass note, the is a 5-note arpeggio marked thumb-thumb-index-middle-ring (| | . .. ...). Ascending broken chords of five or more notes happen frequently throughout this prelude and only the thumb notes are indicated, leaving the right hand fingering for the top three notes unmarked. My guess would be that he means for the initial figure utilizing the ring finger to be employed in these chords. Three dots also show up in the G Major prelude on page 298 within the same kind of rising figure. Those were two places I found just doing a quick skim through Saizenay. It is probably used elsewhere as well. I would gather that folks probably used it more places than it was marked, but not often. Chris --- LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I haven't done the statistics, but was under the > impression that De Visée > asks for thumb, index and middle only, that means no > ring finger. See the > sources for fingerings. > > David > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Nigel Solomon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute > Net" > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:36 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo > > > > Nigel, > > > > > > I'm going to leave the "virtually the same > > instrument" part out of the question for the > moment. > > The whole debate over double vs. single string as > well > > as Italian vs. French performance practice could > get > > ugly. > > > > I use the essentially the same technique for > > Castaldi, Pittoni, Hurel and de Visee. What I do > is > > basically thumb-over using thumb-index-middle > maybe > > 75-80% of the time. The re-entrant tuning of the > > theorbo means that I use the ring finger more > > frequently on theorbo than, say, baroque lute. > > > > We know that Kapsberger did not use the right > > hand ring finger at all since he planted it along > with > > the little finger on the top. He also uses the % > sign > > - meaning some variation of individually-fingered > (as > > opposed to strummed or raked) arpeggio depending > on > > the number and disposition of notes in the chord - > on > > all chords with more than three notes. He does > this > > even on four-note chords that could easily have > been > > blocked using the ring finger. I make a real > effort > > not use the ring finger in Kapsberger's music > because > > I find that it has a huge effect on the > interpretation > > and sound of the music. I don't remember what > > Piccinini specifies, but the three-finger approach > > seems to work pretty well for everything I've > played > > by him, too. > > > > In general, other than the case of > Kapsberger, I > > try not to be too pedantic about it. I think > right > > hand fingering for theorbo needs to be the most > > flexible and indiosyncratic approaches to a lute > > instrument - just look at how many times you end > up > > using the index or even ring finger on the strong > > beat! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > --- Nigel Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> I have been following the thread of how lute > >> technique changed over the > >> years to suit new instruments and fashion. Does > this > >> mean we should not > >> use the same right hand technique to play the > >> theorbo (chitaronne) > >> pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a > century > >> later, even though > >> virtually the same instrument is being played? > >> > >> Nigel > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information > at > >> > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
I haven't done the statistics, but was under the impression that De Visée asks for thumb, index and middle only, that means no ring finger. See the sources for fingerings. David - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Nigel Solomon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo > Nigel, > > > I'm going to leave the "virtually the same > instrument" part out of the question for the moment. > The whole debate over double vs. single string as well > as Italian vs. French performance practice could get > ugly. > > I use the essentially the same technique for > Castaldi, Pittoni, Hurel and de Visee. What I do is > basically thumb-over using thumb-index-middle maybe > 75-80% of the time. The re-entrant tuning of the > theorbo means that I use the ring finger more > frequently on theorbo than, say, baroque lute. > > We know that Kapsberger did not use the right > hand ring finger at all since he planted it along with > the little finger on the top. He also uses the % sign > - meaning some variation of individually-fingered (as > opposed to strummed or raked) arpeggio depending on > the number and disposition of notes in the chord - on > all chords with more than three notes. He does this > even on four-note chords that could easily have been > blocked using the ring finger. I make a real effort > not use the ring finger in Kapsberger's music because > I find that it has a huge effect on the interpretation > and sound of the music. I don't remember what > Piccinini specifies, but the three-finger approach > seems to work pretty well for everything I've played > by him, too. > > In general, other than the case of Kapsberger, I > try not to be too pedantic about it. I think right > hand fingering for theorbo needs to be the most > flexible and indiosyncratic approaches to a lute > instrument - just look at how many times you end up > using the index or even ring finger on the strong > beat! > > > Chris > > > --- Nigel Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I have been following the thread of how lute >> technique changed over the >> years to suit new instruments and fashion. Does this >> mean we should not >> use the same right hand technique to play the >> theorbo (chitaronne) >> pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century >> later, even though >> virtually the same instrument is being played? >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > >
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
On May 4, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Howard Posner wrote: > You might easily get the impression from recent threads that sometime > in the third week of June 1601 lute players all abandoned thumb-in and > started playing thumb-out. Hi Howard. Actually, it was the fourth week. > My impression (gathered third-hand from those who know far more) is > that players in the south (Spain and Italy) played thumb-out in the > sixteenth century, and it gradually spread north in the 17th century. > Was this because of the added courses, or some other reason? Clearly > it's possible to play 14-course instruments thumb-in, since modern > players do it. Well, the change in the iconography seemed sudden enough. Anyway, you can't go by what modern players do. ;-) Actually, the way (most?) modern players play with fingers extended forward, the only time thumb-in/thumb-out becomes an issue is when the thumb and index are playing on adjacent strings. Then you have the problem of follow-up: you have to decide whether your thumb will pass behind your fingers, form a cross with the index, or fold over the outside of the fingers. Otherwise, with the thumb occupied on the bass courses, thumb-out/in isn't a question at all. The RH position shown in the paintings however, with the fingers very close to the bridge, thumb extended etc., becomes a huge issue because it would have made a totally different sound to the standard renaissance lute technique of the previous century. Okay, alright, I can hear Joe Mayes saying to me now: "how do you know?, you weren't there!" (g...) David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
"Shaun Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Another point about nails... > > Playing with nails naturally gives one a more bright sound. This, as > we all know, is not the aesthetic favoured by French baroque > musicians in general. There may be a diffence between playing solo or continuo. Someone as late as Weiss mentioned it when he wrote to Mattheson that the theorbo and arciliuto are played with nails, while the lute was played with the fingertips. As for Mr de Visee's playing thorough bass, I simply don't know evidence of which way he used the theorbo. > The construction of most instruments of the > period - harpsichords, organs, viols and woodwind instruments - > mostly point towards a lower pitch, i.e. a darker sound. I am sure > players who own both a large Italian and smaller continuo French > theorbo will notice this difference with their thicker strings and > shorter string lengths on their French instruments. I was under the impression that the lesser theorbo was exclusively used for solo music? > Jorge can argue his point, but there is also music written for the > instrument specifying an instrument in A, isn't there? I apologize, his name is Jose Miguel Moreno. His argument may be outlined as follows: Nominal reference pitch of the theorbo was A, but that was for the sake of convention, because theorbos in A were generally used for thorough bass playing. The actual pitch of the solo theorbo, however, was D (lesser theorbo). The 1716 edition of de Visee's music en partition may be considered evidence, as all pieces are notated a fourth higher than the same pieces in the tablatures of the Saizenay ms. Moreno's explanation is that solo music in tablature was notated with reference to the nominal instrument in A. But for sounding together with other instruments, the actual pitch had to be written, which was a fourth higher than that of the nominal instrument. Mathias > On 04/05/2007, at 5:30 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > > >> Does this mean we should not > >> use the same right hand technique to play the theorbo (chitaronne) > >> pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century later, > > > > If Piccinini died in 1639 and Visee flourished around 1700, there are > > some 60 years between them. Piccinini tells his readers how to play > > the > > chitarrone, while Visee's music survives mainly in the Saizenay ms. > > and > > a few other manuscripts without any instructions. Piccinini was a lute > > player and used his RH nails for the chitarrone, recommending his > > students to do so. Visee was a guitarist to the king. That's all that > > springs to my mind for the moment. > > > > Which leads to two conclusions: > > 1. We're pretty well informed about playing techniques of Italian > > chitarrone players up to 1640. Kapsberger is another source, by and > > large confirming Piccinini's instructions. > > > > 2. There is close to no evidence about how the last French theorbo > > players used to play their instruments. (Nails? Third finger of right > > hand? Position of RH?) > > > >> even though > >> virtually the same instrument is being played? > > > > Jorge Moreno has argued that solo music for the theorbo was > > performed on > > a lesser theorbo in France. IMO it's most probable that Roman > > chitarroni > > weren't used for solo music. > > -- > > Mathias > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- Viele Grüße Mathias Homepage St. Pauli: http://www.kirche-bremen.de/gemeinden/25_st_pauli/25_st_pauli http://www.bremen.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=335529 http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
Another point about nails... Playing with nails naturally gives one a more bright sound. This, as we all know, is not the aesthetic favoured by French baroque musicians in general. The construction of most instruments of the period - harpsichords, organs, viols and woodwind instruments - mostly point towards a lower pitch, i.e. a darker sound. I am sure players who own both a large Italian and smaller continuo French theorbo will notice this difference with their thicker strings and shorter string lengths on their French instruments. Jorge can argue his point, but there is also music written for the instrument specifying an instrument in A, isn't there? Shaun Ng On 04/05/2007, at 5:30 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >> Does this mean we should not >> use the same right hand technique to play the theorbo (chitaronne) >> pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century later, > > If Piccinini died in 1639 and Visee flourished around 1700, there are > some 60 years between them. Piccinini tells his readers how to play > the > chitarrone, while Visee's music survives mainly in the Saizenay ms. > and > a few other manuscripts without any instructions. Piccinini was a lute > player and used his RH nails for the chitarrone, recommending his > students to do so. Visee was a guitarist to the king. That's all that > springs to my mind for the moment. > > Which leads to two conclusions: > 1. We're pretty well informed about playing techniques of Italian > chitarrone players up to 1640. Kapsberger is another source, by and > large confirming Piccinini's instructions. > > 2. There is close to no evidence about how the last French theorbo > players used to play their instruments. (Nails? Third finger of right > hand? Position of RH?) > >> even though >> virtually the same instrument is being played? > > Jorge Moreno has argued that solo music for the theorbo was > performed on > a lesser theorbo in France. IMO it's most probable that Roman > chitarroni > weren't used for solo music. > -- > Mathias > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's theorbo AND TIORBA NOTATION
This communication does not seem to have been copied to the lute site: here it is again. I should be grateful if anybody can shed fresh light on interpretation of the figures (3 and 2) under some chords in 17.706 which I mention in the second half of the message. I'm told that an edition Bartolloti's theorbo music has been published by the French Lute Society but in this it seems that these figures have been either edited out or misinterpreted (as in (a) below) without comment.. Martyn Hodgson Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:53:19 +0100 (BST) From: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Bartolotti's theorbo AND TIORBA NOTATION To: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Vihuela Net <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lute Net Dear Monica, At the back of MS 17.706 (Nationalbibliothek Vienna), which mostly contains 11 course lute music (first decades of 18thC), are 7 folios of theorbo pieces in French tablature. The 'Accordo della Tiorba' clearly shows octave down for the first two courses and an instrument in A. On f. 89v is an 'Allemanda di Angelo Michiele' which I presume to be our man. This piece also requires the first two courses tuned at the lower octave (eg pre-penultimate bar with campanella passage). None of the other pieces name a composer but on stylistic grounds could be by A.M. I've spotted no concordances with B's guitar works, but. --- This MS also has another interesting and unique(?) marking in a fine 'Preludio' for theorbo on f. 88v - 89 (cld again be by A.M.). I've previously asked for any information on this marking both on this list and elsewhere but with no results. I'd be grateful for any fresh insights from you or anyone else. In short, the numbers 2 or 3 are written under some two, three, four and five note chords which generally form some sort of sequence. What do they mean? - how are they to be played? A few observations: a) The seemingly obvious answer that they indicate the 8th and 9th bass courses doesn't fit the evidence since the more conventional (in French tablature) signs of /a and //a are used throughout this MS and, indeed, in this piece. Moreover in one case the figure 2 is placed under a three note chord with /a in the bass. b) It might be to indicate how to arpeggiate/break the chord, but how - the figures 3 and 2 are found below two succesive three note chords - the figure 2 is found under three and four note chords and the figure 3 under five, three and two(!) note chords c) Is it to show how many times a chord is to be struck? but it seems and odd way to indicate this (especially marking underneath the chord) as well as making no stylistic sense in the sequence. d) There is one piece of evidence to support a hypothesis that the figures indicate some way of breaking a chord in - under a six note chord and a four note chord is the common Italian sign ://: for an arpeggio so perhaps these figures are indeed a shorthand for something similar - but what? and how? Martyn Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Does anyone on this list know the correct tuning for Bartolotti's theorbo music. Looking at the tablature it seems to be standard lute tuning for the six courses on the fingerboard and diatonic basses but are the top two courses tuned down an octave? Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. - Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now. --
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
I am glad you mentioned Hurel, Chris. I want to say that your theorbo CD of Hurel is excellent, and I encourage those on this list without a copy can get it from the Lute Society of America. It is a welcome edition to recorded theorbo CD's! Well done! ed At 02:36 PM 5/3/2007 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Nigel, > > > I'm going to leave the "virtually the same >instrument" part out of the question for the moment. >The whole debate over double vs. single string as well >as Italian vs. French performance practice could get >ugly. > > I use the essentially the same technique for >Castaldi, Pittoni, Hurel and de Visee. What I do is >basically thumb-over using thumb-index-middle maybe >75-80% of the time. The re-entrant tuning of the >theorbo means that I use the ring finger more >frequently on theorbo than, say, baroque lute. > > We know that Kapsberger did not use the right >hand ring finger at all since he planted it along with >the little finger on the top. He also uses the % sign >- meaning some variation of individually-fingered (as >opposed to strummed or raked) arpeggio depending on >the number and disposition of notes in the chord - on >all chords with more than three notes. He does this >even on four-note chords that could easily have been >blocked using the ring finger. I make a real effort >not use the ring finger in Kapsberger's music because >I find that it has a huge effect on the interpretation >and sound of the music. I don't remember what >Piccinini specifies, but the three-finger approach >seems to work pretty well for everything I've played >by him, too. > > In general, other than the case of Kapsberger, I >try not to be too pedantic about it. I think right >hand fingering for theorbo needs to be the most >flexible and indiosyncratic approaches to a lute >instrument - just look at how many times you end up >using the index or even ring finger on the strong >beat! > > >Chris > > >--- Nigel Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I have been following the thread of how lute > > technique changed over the > > years to suit new instruments and fashion. Does this > > mean we should not > > use the same right hand technique to play the > > theorbo (chitaronne) > > pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century > > later, even though > > virtually the same instrument is being played? > > > > Nigel > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >__ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007 >2:16 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
Nigel, I'm going to leave the "virtually the same instrument" part out of the question for the moment. The whole debate over double vs. single string as well as Italian vs. French performance practice could get ugly. I use the essentially the same technique for Castaldi, Pittoni, Hurel and de Visee. What I do is basically thumb-over using thumb-index-middle maybe 75-80% of the time. The re-entrant tuning of the theorbo means that I use the ring finger more frequently on theorbo than, say, baroque lute. We know that Kapsberger did not use the right hand ring finger at all since he planted it along with the little finger on the top. He also uses the % sign - meaning some variation of individually-fingered (as opposed to strummed or raked) arpeggio depending on the number and disposition of notes in the chord - on all chords with more than three notes. He does this even on four-note chords that could easily have been blocked using the ring finger. I make a real effort not use the ring finger in Kapsberger's music because I find that it has a huge effect on the interpretation and sound of the music. I don't remember what Piccinini specifies, but the three-finger approach seems to work pretty well for everything I've played by him, too. In general, other than the case of Kapsberger, I try not to be too pedantic about it. I think right hand fingering for theorbo needs to be the most flexible and indiosyncratic approaches to a lute instrument - just look at how many times you end up using the index or even ring finger on the strong beat! Chris --- Nigel Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have been following the thread of how lute > technique changed over the > years to suit new instruments and fashion. Does this > mean we should not > use the same right hand technique to play the > theorbo (chitaronne) > pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century > later, even though > virtually the same instrument is being played? > > Nigel > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: theorbo
> Does this mean we should not > use the same right hand technique to play the theorbo (chitaronne) > pieces by Piccinini as for De Viséé over a century later, If Piccinini died in 1639 and Visee flourished around 1700, there are some 60 years between them. Piccinini tells his readers how to play the chitarrone, while Visee's music survives mainly in the Saizenay ms. and a few other manuscripts without any instructions. Piccinini was a lute player and used his RH nails for the chitarrone, recommending his students to do so. Visee was a guitarist to the king. That's all that springs to my mind for the moment. Which leads to two conclusions: 1. We're pretty well informed about playing techniques of Italian chitarrone players up to 1640. Kapsberger is another source, by and large confirming Piccinini's instructions. 2. There is close to no evidence about how the last French theorbo players used to play their instruments. (Nails? Third finger of right hand? Position of RH?) > even though > virtually the same instrument is being played? Jorge Moreno has argued that solo music for the theorbo was performed on a lesser theorbo in France. IMO it's most probable that Roman chitarroni weren't used for solo music. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] F1 and theorbo... ;-)
I answered: > > We should start a lute & F1 society, perhaps? ;-) > > I'll join that club immediately! :) > (Räikkönen and Kovalainen are Finns, Rosberg half Finn... > and yes, I have to watch every race... :-) And so every 200th Finn is a Formula 1 driver! ;) (500/2.5 = 200) And it is much more common to play the theorbo! ;)) Arto -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
Roman was asking to set proportional spacing. Tomorrow , "per gli esteti" ( it's night here) Donatella - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 10:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo > Sorry, private message went to the list... > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Lutelist" ; "Donatella Galletti" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 4:28 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo > > >> Prima di stampare il PDF avresti dovuto cliccare il spacing >> proporzionale. >> Senza di questo sara' un casino visuale... >> r >> - Original Message - >> From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Lutelist" >> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 12:13 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Passacaglia for theorbo >> >> >>> On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new >>> piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on >>> >>> http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm >>> >>> enjoy! >>> >>> ( A version for baroque lute will follow) >>> >>> Donatella >>> >>> >>> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _ >> Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy >> with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com >> >> >> >> > > > > > _ > Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy > with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 23/02/2007 > 13.26 > >
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
Sorry, private message went to the list... RT - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" ; "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo > Prima di stampare il PDF avresti dovuto cliccare il spacing proporzionale. > Senza di questo sara' un casino visuale... > r > - Original Message - > From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Lutelist" > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 12:13 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Passacaglia for theorbo > > >> On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new >> piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on >> >> http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm >> >> enjoy! >> >> ( A version for baroque lute will follow) >> >> Donatella >> >> >> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > > _ > Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy > with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com > > > > _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
Prima di stampare il PDF avresti dovuto cliccare il spacing proporzionale. Senza di questo sara' un casino visuale... r - Original Message - From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 12:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Passacaglia for theorbo > On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new > piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on > > http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm > > enjoy! > > ( A version for baroque lute will follow) > > Donatella > > > http://web.tiscali.it/awebd > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:11 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo > On Sunday 25 February 2007 18:13, you wrote: >> On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new >> piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on >> >> http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm >> >> enjoy! >> >> ( A version for baroque lute will follow) > and perhaps the youtube version... ? any volunteers? Donatella > > taco > >> >> Donatella >> >> >> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 23/02/2007 > 13.26 > >
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
> On Sunday 25 February 2007 18:13, you wrote: >> On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new >> piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on >> >> http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm >> >> enjoy! >> >> ( A version for baroque lute will follow) > and perhaps the youtube version... ? > > taco Anticipated anxiously. RT >> >> Donatella >> >> >> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Passacaglia for theorbo
On Sunday 25 February 2007 18:13, you wrote: > On occasion of her 305th birthday, Alessia Aldobrandini gave me a new > piece, "passacaglia per tiorba". Tab and midi on > > http://www.webalice.it/dg3011/index.htm > > enjoy! > > ( A version for baroque lute will follow) and perhaps the youtube version... ? taco > > Donatella > > > http://web.tiscali.it/awebd > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rivera's Bach for theorbo
Hoi Jelma > I have BWV 1007, 1008 and 1009 transcribed for chitarrone by Rivera, > they were published by 'Conservatorio Superior de Musica Sevilla' in > 1999. No ISBN. You can borrow that edition from me if you like. Dank je wel and welcome to the list. No need to borrow, but could you email me a sample page to give me an idea how many basses and or chords he has added? When listening to the cd it souds like he's been rather modest with adding notes to the cello's part. David > > I don't know about introductions etiquette and the like on this list, > but I'm a recent member, lute, theorbo and (early) guitar player from > Amsterdam. I have been following all the recent discussions with great > interest! > > Greetings from Amsterdam, Jelma van Amersfoort > > > > On 2/18/07, LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Are Juan Carlos Rivera's arrangements of cello suites by Bach available >> in >> an edition? >> >> David - I have found the music and text to Capitán Romero's Romecrico >> Florida', btw, so thanks to those who helped. >> >> >> >> >> David van Ooijen >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> www.davidvanooijen.nl >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[LUTE] Re: Rivera's Bach for theorbo
Hi David and others I have BWV 1007, 1008 and 1009 transcribed for chitarrone by Rivera, they were published by 'Conservatorio Superior de Musica Sevilla' in 1999. No ISBN. You can borrow that edition from me if you like. I don't know about introductions etiquette and the like on this list, but I'm a recent member, lute, theorbo and (early) guitar player from Amsterdam. I have been following all the recent discussions with great interest! Greetings from Amsterdam, Jelma van Amersfoort On 2/18/07, LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are Juan Carlos Rivera's arrangements of cello suites by Bach available in > an edition? > > David - I have found the music and text to Capitán Romero's Romecrico > Florida', btw, so thanks to those who helped. > > > > > David van Ooijen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
Hi Benjamin: I *love* a version by the french theorbist Pascal Monteilhet of the Visee work, playing a Mathias Durvie theorbe. I'm speaking of a double CD at low/mid price, including three Bach's cello suites arranged for theorbe. Greetings, Juan Fco. 2007/1/17, Benjamin Stehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Hi, > > can anybody recommend a nice recording of the theorbo pieces from > Robert de Visee (Saizenay Ms.)? > > After a quik search it looks like the few recordings that seem to exist > are > no longer available. > > Thanks, > > Benjamin > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Juan Fco. --
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
On Jan 18, 2007, at 1:12 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > I think you mean Yasunori Imamura (at least that's how it's > Anglicized on > his Capriccio release). Of course I did. Stupid fingers! Just like my lute playing. > I really like that disc, especially Imamura's > interpretation of the chaconne that caps off the G-major suite and de > Visee's arrangement of the overture from Lully's La Grotte De > Versailles. Judging only from that CD, I think he is a top rate player and deserves more attention. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
At 07:13 AM 1/17/2007, Ed Durbrow wrote: >On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:51 PM, Benjamin Stehr wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > can anybody recommend a nice recording of the theorbo pieces from > > Robert de Visée (Saizenay Ms.)? > >Not sure if all or any of the pieces come from the Saizenay MS, but >you would have a hard time to do better than the CD by Yaunoe Imamura >for De Visee on theorbo. I think you mean Yasunori Imamura (at least that's how it's Anglicized on his Capriccio release). I really like that disc, especially Imamura's interpretation of the chaconne that caps off the G-major suite and de Visee's arrangement of the overture from Lully's La Grotte De Versailles. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
I saw that on Amazon. That price is totally crazy!! Presumably it's out of print...? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com On Jan 17, 2007, at 5:55 AM, Benjamin Stehr wrote: > Hi, > >> http://www.amazon.com/Visee-Pieces-Theorbe- > Robert/dp/B017LN/sr=1-2/qid=1169030127/ref=sr_1_2/105- > 6836316-2654830?ie=UTF8&s=music > > Thanks for the link! I will try to find it on one of the other stores > 90 USD or 81 pounds on amazon.co.uk - crazy... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:51 PM, Benjamin Stehr wrote: > Hi, > > can anybody recommend a nice recording of the theorbo pieces from > Robert de Visée (Saizenay Ms.)? Not sure if all or any of the pieces come from the Saizenay MS, but you would have a hard time to do better than the CD by Yaunoe Imamura for De Visee on theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
There is one in print, with Vincent Dumestre. RT - Original Message - From: "Benjamin Stehr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:04 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms > Hi, > >> I like the Jose Miguel Moreno plays of Robert de Visée. > > Yes, i listened to it on amazon, but that seems to be one of those which > are no longer available :-) > > Benjamin > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
Hi, > http://www.amazon.com/Visee-Pieces-Theorbe- Robert/dp/B017LN/sr=1-2/qid=1169030127/ref=sr_1_2/105- 6836316-2654830?ie=UTF8&s=music Thanks for the link! I will try to find it on one of the other stores 90 USD or 81 pounds on amazon.co.uk - crazy... Benjamin > > It is an old Hopkinson Smith recording, but it's still valid in my > opinion. > > Luca > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
Hi, try this one on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Visee-Pieces-Theorbe-Robert/dp/B017LN/sr=1-2/qid=1169030127/ref=sr_1_2/105-6836316-2654830?ie=UTF8&s=music It is an old Hopkinson Smith recording, but it's still valid in my opinion. Luca Benjamin Stehr on 17-01-2007 11:04 wrote: > Hi, > > >> I like the Jose Miguel Moreno plays of Robert de Vis?e. >> > > Yes, i listened to it on amazon, but that seems to be one of those which > are no longer available :-) > > Benjamin > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
Hi, > I like the Jose Miguel Moreno plays of Robert de Visée. Yes, i listened to it on amazon, but that seems to be one of those which are no longer available :-) Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Recordings of theorbo pieces from Saizenay Ms
Hi, can anybody recommend a nice recording of the theorbo pieces from Robert de Visée (Saizenay Ms.)? After a quik search it looks like the few recordings that seem to exist are no longer available. Thanks, Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Sign in Theorbo ms.
Dear Collected Wisdom, some pieces of the Goess theorbo ms. bear a sign which resembles a quaver break in modern staff notation. At first glance, I often misinterpreted it as a cross, but it isn't a cross. More often than not, it appears with dotted notes. Is it a break (short taking of breath, so to say)? Or an ornament, rather? -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)
On Wednesday, Oct 18, 2006, at 13:21 America/Los_Angeles, Stewart McCoy wrote: > A transcription involves copying music from one notation > note-for-note to another, for example, re-writing lute tablature as > staff notation. For the most part, it is a mechanical job, because > the notes stay the same. (Let's not fuss about whether a > transcription into staff notation reflects things like octave > stringing, or whether it is a literal or polyphonic transcription.) > > An arrangement is when you take a piece written in one medium, and > adapt it to suit another, for example, turning a 4-part chanson into > a lute trio. This requires some thought, because, unlike a > transcription where the notes stay the same, you have to judge what > fits the new medium best, and add notes or take them away. This is a thoughtful set of definitions, but unfortunately not the way the terms are commonly used. Brahms piano somethingorothers thinned out to be playable on the guitar are typically called transcriptions, as are Stokowski's orchestral versions of Bach. Google "Stokowski Bach transcription" (without the quotes), for example and you'll get 15,400 hits. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)
Dear Arto, A transcription involves copying music from one notation note-for-note to another, for example, re-writing lute tablature as staff notation. For the most part, it is a mechanical job, because the notes stay the same. (Let's not fuss about whether a transcription into staff notation reflects things like octave stringing, or whether it is a literal or polyphonic transcription.) An arrangement is when you take a piece written in one medium, and adapt it to suit another, for example, turning a 4-part chanson into a lute trio. This requires some thought, because, unlike a transcription where the notes stay the same, you have to judge what fits the new medium best, and add notes or take them away. An intabulation is when you turn music into tablature. This could be a simple note-for-note transcription from staff notation to tablature, or it could be an arrangement where you alter a few things to make it fit on the lute. An example would be transposing the note e up an octave to e' to make it easier to play: A note-for-note transcription would produce _a_ ___ _d_ ___ _e_ _f_ but if you want it to be lute friendly, you'd change it to _a_ _c_ _d_ ___ _a_ ___ An intabulation might involve adding all sorts of divisions and ornaments, which would make it an arrangement. If your intabulation of Lully's Marche keeps all the notes as they were, it is a transcription; if, on the other hand, you have made some editorial decisions, like exploiting campanella effects on the theorbo, or omitting notes which go too high, you could call it an arrangement, but I think I would stick to the word intabulation. I hope that helps. All the best, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-) > > Dear fellow lutenists, > > at last I had time to make also a theorbo version of the wonderful > "Marche pour la Ceremonie des Turcs" composed by Lully! > Actually it works quite well on the instrument. :-) > > My theorbo transcription uses lots and LOTS of the campanella effect > that is made possible by the "re-entrant" tuning of theorboes! > > There are also some fingering suggestions that work at least for me. > This version of the "Marche" is perhaps a little more demanding than my > earlier lute version, but what theorbo piece wouldn't be at least a > little difficult: theorbo is not an easy instrument! Assuming a theorbo > in a, my transcription is in the key of e-minor. > > You can find both transcriptions (10-course and theorbo) and also the > original 5-part version by Lully in my new page: > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/ > > All the best, > > Arto > > PS What really is the difference between English words "transcription" > and "arrangement" (or is it "arrangemant")? Which is better word for my > tabulatures of the "Marche"? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)
Hi Roman and all, On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: > A 11-13course version is at > http://polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html Roman, you were very fast, indeed! May I put a link to my Lully/Marche page? Or perhaps put even a copy directly to my directory? (with a link to polyhymnion, of course) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)
Dear fellow lutenists, at last I had time to make also a theorbo version of the wonderful "Marche pour la Ceremonie des Turcs" composed by Lully! Actually it works quite well on the instrument. :-) My theorbo transcription uses lots and LOTS of the campanella effect that is made possible by the "re-entrant" tuning of theorboes! There are also some fingering suggestions that work at least for me. This version of the "Marche" is perhaps a little more demanding than my earlier lute version, but what theorbo piece wouldn't be at least a little difficult: theorbo is not an easy instrument! Assuming a theorbo in a, my transcription is in the key of e-minor. You can find both transcriptions (10-course and theorbo) and also the original 5-part version by Lully in my new page: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/ All the best, Arto PS What really is the difference between English words "transcription" and "arrangement" (or is it "arrangemant")? Which is better word for my tabulatures of the "Marche"? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
> Note that the highest sounding string of the theorbo (e') > is the _third_ string, not the "top" string (d') which > is really a second lower. This cooresponds exactly to > the highest string of the angelique (also e'). > Placement on the instrument is different, but it > produces the same sound. OK, see what you mean. > These companellas are > very frequently used by French theorbo composers to > great effect. Yepp, I know. I play them with much joy. > In fact, it is possible to play a descending step-wise > scale all the way from the theorbo's highest open > string (e' in our case) to the bottom of its register > using only THREE stopped notes. I'd prefer FOUR stopped notes like this: |---a-| |---r-| |-a---| |-a---| |-r-a-| |-d-r-a---| | a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7 | > (This makes for a scale of 17 notes - just like the open strings of the > angelique). The thing is, campanelle are preferably played with thumb and index. That's the technical advantage of re-entrant tuning. It is, however, inappropiate on the angelique. The same scale would be played like this: |-a| |---a--| |-a| |---a--| |-a| |---a--| | a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7 8 9 X | That requires an entirely different playing technique. > I have done no scientific research, but it seems that > the key of G major (for theorbo in A - this should be > the key of C for our lesser theorbo) may possibly be > the most favored key employed by theorbo composers. > Works in G major make up by far the largest collection > of theorbo pieces in the Saizenay MS., as well as > among Charles Hurel's suites and it appears very often > in the Goess MS (don't have time to go through it > personally at the moment). That may pass for Kapsberger's Libro primo and possibly for his fourth book, too. With Piccinini, however, it's different. And if you take a look at pieces for the theorbo by de Visée in Saizenay ms. you will notice that there are more pieces in D minor than in G major, and almost as many in G minor (the latter being a technically more demanding key without campanelle on open strings). > For someone who really got a kick out of these > overlapping notes on theorbo, it would be a small step > to add some extra strings to take the place of the > three fretted notes I mentioned above, arrange all of > them stepwise rather than bouncing back and forth > re-entrant-wise and - viola! - an angelique. Well, yes. But that's the point, stepwise instead of re-entrantwise is just a different thing. > So? These are just surviving instruments. They tell > us very little about the mass of instruments that > didn't survive. Would you mind to tell us what you know about those masses of non-surviving angeliques? (Just kidding.) > We're the blind men in a room each > describing an elephant from out own perspective. I'm > proposing what most likely occured. Like one of those blind men in a room, I suppose. > I guess Moreno would know from research and > experience... He says in the liner notes to 'Pieces > de theorbes Francaises,' "The angelique may > undoubtedly be classed in the family of theorbos." Read on. He says that's because theorboes have "two sets of tuning pegs", i. e. two pegboxes. That's all. According to that, swan neck lutes, archlutes, liuti attiorbati, would also qualify as theorbos (which they did, indeed, to contemporaries). Furthermore, he says, is the angelique distinct from the theorbo as well as the lute in that it is tuned differently. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
--- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > As for this initial question, we've now reached the > point where the > _tessiture_ are compared: e'-C (angelique) vs. d'-C > (lesser, or French, > theorbo). No, as I mentioned in my last message, the range of the open strings is _exactly_ the same. Not just similar. Again, going by James Talbot's description of the angelique: theorbo in "D", (diaonically) from bottom sting upwards: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d,g,c',e',a,d'; 17-string angelique: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d,e,f,g,a,b,c',d',e'. Don't let those gaps of fourths, thirds and fifths in the upper register of the theorbo confuse you. Note that the highest sounding string of the theorbo (e') is the _third_ string, not the "top" string (d') which is really a second lower. This cooresponds exactly to the highest string of the angelique (also e'). Placement on the instrument is different, but it produces the same sound. I will concede that with its "staggered" tuning, the traditional theorbo placement of strings is quite different than that of the angelique. But it is this very re-entrant tuning that makes all kinds of harp-like effects possible. These companellas are very frequently used by French theorbo composers to great effect. In fact, it is possible to play a descending step-wise scale all the way from the theorbo's highest open string (e' in our case) to the bottom of its register using only THREE stopped notes. (This makes for a scale of 17 notes - just like the open strings of the angelique). One finds the second between the open fifth and second courses, and the series of seconds between the fourth, first, and third strings appearing together melodically over and over in theorbo music. I have done no scientific research, but it seems that the key of G major (for theorbo in A - this should be the key of C for our lesser theorbo) may possibly be the most favored key employed by theorbo composers. Works in G major make up by far the largest collection of theorbo pieces in the Saizenay MS., as well as among Charles Hurel's suites and it appears very often in the Goess MS (don't have time to go through it personally at the moment). Why? Precisely to make as much use as possible of the harp-effects possible in this key! These effects are also used in other keys of course, but owing to the needed use of more fretted notes, are less noticable there. For someone who really got a kick out of these overlapping notes on theorbo, it would be a small step to add some extra strings to take the place of the three fretted notes I mentioned above, arrange all of them stepwise rather than bouncing back and forth re-entrant-wise and - viola! - an angelique. What's more, surviving lesser > theorbos still are > larger (75 VSL) than surviving angeliques (54-70 cm > VSL). So? These are just surviving instruments. They tell us very little about the mass of instruments that didn't survive. We're the blind men in a room each describing an elephant from out own perspective. I'm proposing what most likely occured. > (when you listen to > recordings by Jorge Moreno) I guess Moreno would know from research and experience... He says in the liner notes to 'Pieces de theorbes Francaises,' "The angelique may undoubtedly be classed in the family of theorbos." Take care, Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
> If you say, however, angeliques are compound > instruments, consisting of lute bodies, theorboed > necks, and harp tunings, I should NOT dissent, that is. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
--- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You mean, where are they being kept? No. > To think, however, that > the angelique must > have been developed, rather than invented, is an > unnessecary premise, > IMHO. It is extremely rare to find instruments that are simply invented, especially one that is so similar to other existing ones. What about the lute itself? We all know of its older brother, the oud, even though the outlines between the two become more and more blurred as we go back in time.. In fact, nearly all of our present day instruments have changed but little since their invention. Things like material, keys, valves, frets, "accidents" of design, merely represent technological modifications of an initial idea (the "invention") that often stretched back somewhere in pre-history. >The angelique > considerably differs from the > lute and the theorbo in two aspects, mainly: it is > single strung (lutes > are generally, theorbos more often than not, strung > with courses, i. e. > paired strings), and it's tuned like... - well: the > harp > (notwithstanding the fretboard of the angelique). No > fourths or fifths, > no re-entrant tuning either. True, the practical tuning setup of the two instruments is completely different, but the angelique's tessitura is completely identical to that of the 'theorbe de pieces.' According to Talbot this is from low C to high e (for 17-string instruments) - _exactly_ the same range. Could the angelique have even played theorbo music (with, perhaps, a little modification) then? >The bridge, pegbox, nut, must be > changed anyway (the > angelique bears 16 or 17 strings). This is no evidence that the angelique was created out of thin air. (Who, as in the case of the archlute or German swan neck, has been credited with its invention?) The same could be said of the development of the 11-course lute from the 10-or-fewer-course lute. Like the angelique, what started with experiments in tuning ended up with the invention of a new kind of lute - NOT the new lute and new tuning popping up together one day on a calendar. Why would anyone take an existing lute, add a new nut, bridge and rider - just for one more course? Why not just "invent" an 11-course as you propose happened with the angelique? The answer lies, of course, in the fact that many people started experimenting with tuning which eventually called for the structural changes. But we know that conversions were certainly done. As 11 courses became the norm, such instruments began to be made in their own right, even as conversions persisted to the days of the 13th course. So it must have been with the angelique. First, it was a plain theorbo with funky harp tuning, then an altered theorbo (new bridge, etc.), then finally a newly built dedicated instrument. >The > unique feature of the angelique certainly is its > tuning which is neither > devoloped nor taken over from the theorbo or lute. Its tuning unique? Not taken over from anything? You just mentioned that it is like a harp. Its external design is essentially a theorbo. > Swan necks are > secondary features, I'd say. Agreed! Chris > -- > Best, > > Mathias > > http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com > http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel > http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
>>> We must be very careful! There exist an Angelique in Paris (E. >>> 980.2.317, see the new catalogue p. 94) with a neck (not a swan >>> neck, >>> but also not a true theorbo neck - it's something between) who is >>> known from French iconographic sources from 1660-80. > > Do you mean to say that that instrument can be seen on several (!!) > > contemporaneous paintings? How do you know it is that very > > angelique? Or > > is it the kind of neck (on lutes, though), rather, that was > > portayed in > > 1660-80? > See the article Duigot, Joel: Approche iconographique du theorbe en > France, 1650-1700, in: Musique. Images. Instruments, n.2, 1996, p. > 182-183 Cannot see it. Not available here. And I don't speak French. Would you mind? Short summary or something, or the main thesis? >>> I know a Tielke lute from 1680 in Zurich (the label is disapeared...) >>> who was probably changed from 11-course to an Angelique with a swan >>> neck and then changed to a "normal" 13-course lute. > > Which evidence is there for that in-between-stadium as an angelique? > The wholes in the pegbox are altered and the now used pegs are very > small. Which proves that it is a 13c lute with very small pegs and an altered pegbox. So what? Any specific footprints of the angelique? Something like traces of a broad bridge for 16 or 17 strings? (To be sure, I'm not an expert on angeliques, just curious.) > Not all are really swan-necked! See the Paris instrument! I'd love to see pictures of that instrument. -- Best, Mathias http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
--- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Surviving > angeliques are small > (string lengths of 54 to 71 cm), single strung, > swan-necked > instruments. I'm interested in existing instruments, so much as the organology of this class. So where did the angelique come from? Is it not reasonable to propose that the angelique came about by modifying existing theorbos, specifically the French solo theorbo? As you say above, the surviving examples are "small, single-strung." This sounds more like a solo theorbo than a lute. Since doubled-headed lutes were not generally used in France, why would someone inventing the angelique go to the all the trouble of modifying a single-headed lute's neck, nut, and bridge rather than just re-stringing the theorbo sitting over in the corner? We can certainly imagine that later on the angelique ceased to be a re-tuned theorbo and took up its own unique characteristics, i.e. the curved swan neck, the extra strings. ...Or do we believe that it sprang fully-formed from the head of Zeus? This is actually the story of the theorbo itself; first, it was simply a re-strung bass lute with re-entrant tuning. Later, diapasons were added. Soon the instrument took on a life of its own and it was no longer considered a modified lute. Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
> There is also a recently surfaced Railich in Prague, that is likely to be an > altered angelique. Wolfgang Emmerich (Berlin) examined it and recently wrote contributions about it to the Lute News (Lute Society, GB) and to the Info (German Lute Society). If memory serves, he didn't even mention the possibility that that lute might formerly have been an angelique. > I was told by an extremely edudite individual a couple of weeks ago that > several swan-neck pegboxes show evidence of alterations consistent with > their origins as angeliques. At any rate, surviving angeliques aren't converted theorbos. That much can safely be said. > > We must be very careful! There exist an Angelique in Paris (E. > > 980.2.317, see the new catalogue p. 94) with a neck (not a swan neck, > > but also not a true theorbo neck - it's something between) who is > > known from French iconographic sources from 1660-80. Do you mean to say that that instrument can be seen on several (!!) contemporaneous paintings? How do you know it is that very angelique? Or is it the kind of neck (on lutes, though), rather, that was portayed in 1660-80? > > I know a Tielke lute from 1680 in Zurich (the label is disapeared...) > > who was probably changed from 11-course to an Angelique with a swan > > neck and then changed to a "normal" 13-course lute. Which evidence is there for that in-between-stadium as an angelique? > > So we always have to distinct between the different layers of the > > "development" of an old lute! Achieved luthiers will be able to do that. What I'd be interested in is evidence for angeliques, in this case. Surviving angeliques are small (string lengths of 54 to 71 cm), single strung, swan-necked instruments. -- Best, Mathias http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel > >>>> Swan-necks on angeliques predate the > >>>> purported/alleged "invention" by some > >>>> 50 years. > >> > >>>> The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from > >>>> 1704 > >>>> (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, > >>>> dated > >>>> from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) > >> > >>> Kremberg's book is from 1689, as I recall... > >> > >> Yes, indeed. Do you happen to know of surviving angeliques from > >> Kremberg's days which would prove that they were built as swan necks > >> then, already? > >> -- > >> Best, > >> > >> Mathias > >> > >>>>> The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, > >>>>> not a lute. > >>>> > >>>> Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm > >>>> (Brussels), 64 > >>>> cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in > >>>> Prague), > >>>> that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted > >>>> lutes, not > >>>> theorbos. > >>>> > >>>> Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted > >>>> lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might > >>>> suggest > >>>> that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a > >>>> result of > >>>> conversions. > >>>> > >>>>> In this case, the theorboed extension was > >>>>> already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a > >>>>> characteristically French architechtural flourish of > >>>>> an existing product. > >>>> > >>>> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are > >>>> characterically German. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
The next Journal from the LSA will have an article about a number of swan necks and details about the probable changes in them over the years. This should be finished shortly. Nancy Carlin >There is also a recently surfaced Railich in Prague, that is likely to be an >altered angelique. >I was told by an extremely edudite individual a couple of weeks ago that >several swan-neck pegboxes show evidence of alterations consistent with >their origins as angeliques. >RT > > > >- Original Message - >From: "Andreas Schlegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: " Mathias R=F6sel " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: "Lutelist" >Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:46 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question) > > > > Hello > > > > We must be very careful! There exist an Angelique in Paris (E. > > 980.2.317, see the new catalogue p. 94) with a neck (not a swan neck, > > but also not a true theorbo neck - it's something between) who is > > known from French iconographic sources from 1660-80. > > I know a Tielke lute from 1680 in Zurich (the label is disapeared...) > > who was probably changed from 11-course to an Angelique with a swan > > neck and then changed to a "normal" 13-course lute. > > So we always have to distinct between the different layers of the > > "development" of an old lute! > > I don't think that all swan necked lutes are originally swan necked. > > Most of them are changed - it's only the question when, where and > > whatfor. > > > > Andreas > > > > Am 08.10.2006 um 19:17 schrieb Mathias R=F6sel: > > > >>>> Swan-necks on angeliques predate the > >>>> purported/alleged "invention" by some > >>>> 50 years. > >> > >>>> The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from > >>>> 1704 > >>>> (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, > >>>> dated > >>>> from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) > >> > >>> Kremberg's book is from 1689, as I recall... > >> > >> Yes, indeed. Do you happen to know of surviving angeliques from > >> Kremberg's days which would prove that they were built as swan necks > >> then, already? > >> -- > >> Best, > >> > >> Mathias > >> > >>>>> The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, > >>>>> not a lute. > >>>> > >>>> Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm > >>>> (Brussels), 64 > >>>> cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in > >>>> Prague), > >>>> that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted > >>>> lutes, not > >>>> theorbos. > >>>> > >>>> Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted > >>>> lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might > >>>> suggest > >>>> that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a > >>>> result of > >>>> conversions. > >>>> > >>>>> In this case, the theorboed extension was > >>>>> already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a > >>>>> characteristically French architechtural flourish of > >>>>> an existing product. > >>>> > >>>> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are > >>>> characterically German. > >> -- > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
There is also a recently surfaced Railich in Prague, that is likely to be an altered angelique. I was told by an extremely edudite individual a couple of weeks ago that several swan-neck pegboxes show evidence of alterations consistent with their origins as angeliques. RT - Original Message - From: "Andreas Schlegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: " Mathias Rösel " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question) > Hello > > We must be very careful! There exist an Angelique in Paris (E. > 980.2.317, see the new catalogue p. 94) with a neck (not a swan neck, > but also not a true theorbo neck - it's something between) who is > known from French iconographic sources from 1660-80. > I know a Tielke lute from 1680 in Zurich (the label is disapeared...) > who was probably changed from 11-course to an Angelique with a swan > neck and then changed to a "normal" 13-course lute. > So we always have to distinct between the different layers of the > "development" of an old lute! > I don't think that all swan necked lutes are originally swan necked. > Most of them are changed - it's only the question when, where and > whatfor. > > Andreas > > Am 08.10.2006 um 19:17 schrieb Mathias Rösel: > >>>> Swan-necks on angeliques predate the >>>> purported/alleged "invention" by some >>>> 50 years. >> >>>> The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from >>>> 1704 >>>> (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, >>>> dated >>>> from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) >> >>> Kremberg's book is from 1689, as I recall... >> >> Yes, indeed. Do you happen to know of surviving angeliques from >> Kremberg's days which would prove that they were built as swan necks >> then, already? >> -- >> Best, >> >> Mathias >> >>>>> The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, >>>>> not a lute. >>>> >>>> Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm >>>> (Brussels), 64 >>>> cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in >>>> Prague), >>>> that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted >>>> lutes, not >>>> theorbos. >>>> >>>> Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted >>>> lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might >>>> suggest >>>> that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a >>>> result of >>>> conversions. >>>> >>>>> In this case, the theorboed extension was >>>>> already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a >>>>> characteristically French architechtural flourish of >>>>> an existing product. >>>> >>>> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are >>>> characterically German. >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
Hello We must be very careful! There exist an Angelique in Paris (E. 980.2.317, see the new catalogue p. 94) with a neck (not a swan neck, but also not a true theorbo neck - it's something between) who is known from French iconographic sources from 1660-80. I know a Tielke lute from 1680 in Zurich (the label is disapeared...) who was probably changed from 11-course to an Angelique with a swan neck and then changed to a "normal" 13-course lute. So we always have to distinct between the different layers of the "development" of an old lute! I don't think that all swan necked lutes are originally swan necked. Most of them are changed - it's only the question when, where and whatfor. Andreas Am 08.10.2006 um 19:17 schrieb Mathias Rösel: >>> Swan-necks on angeliques predate the >>> purported/alleged "invention" by some >>> 50 years. > >>> The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from >>> 1704 >>> (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, >>> dated >>> from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) > >> Kremberg's book is from 1689, as I recall... > > Yes, indeed. Do you happen to know of surviving angeliques from > Kremberg's days which would prove that they were built as swan necks > then, already? > -- > Best, > > Mathias > >>>> The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, >>>> not a lute. >>> >>> Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm >>> (Brussels), 64 >>> cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in >>> Prague), >>> that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted >>> lutes, not >>> theorbos. >>> >>> Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted >>> lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might >>> suggest >>> that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a >>> result of >>> conversions. >>> >>>> In this case, the theorboed extension was >>>> already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a >>>> characteristically French architechtural flourish of >>>> an existing product. >>> >>> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are >>> characterically German. > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
>> Swan-necks on angeliques predate the >> purported/alleged "invention" by some >> 50 years. > > The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from 1704 > > (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, dated > > from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) > Kremberg's book is from 1689, as I recall... Yes, indeed. Do you happen to know of surviving angeliques from Kremberg's days which would prove that they were built as swan necks then, already? -- Best, Mathias > >> The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, > >> not a lute. > > > > Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm (Brussels), 64 > > cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in Prague), > > that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted lutes, not > > theorbos. > > > > Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted > > lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might suggest > > that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a result of > > conversions. > > > >> In this case, the theorboed extension was > >> already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a > >> characteristically French architechtural flourish of > >> an existing product. > > > > I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are > > characterically German. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)
> > Swan-necks on angeliques predate the > > purported/alleged "invention" by some > > 50 years. The oldest two out of those four angeliques in Schwerin date from 1704 (both made by Tielke). One angelique in Munich is a former lute, dated from 1633. (According to Pohlmann 1982, p. 596-7) > The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, > not a lute. Facing vibrating string lengths of 53 cm (Leipzig), 54 cm (Brussels), 64 cm (Munich), and ca 70 cm (four instruments in Schwerin, one in Prague), that seems improbable. If at all, angeliques were converted lutes, not theorbos. Only one out of survivng eight angeliques appears to be a converted lute, however. Seven others were built as angeliques. That might suggest that the angelique was an instrument of its own right, not a result of conversions. > In this case, the theorboed extension was > already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a > characteristically French architechtural flourish of > an existing product. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that swan necks are characterically German. -- Best, Mathias http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
On Friday, Oct 6, 2006, at 05:27 America/Los_Angeles, Rob Dorsey wrote: > Actually there is apparently, reading Narvey, considerable evidence > that > English theorbists adopted the Dm tuning despite it being a French > initiative. Go figger' huh? Mace, writing in 1676, said the theorbo was tuned like the "old English lute" (i.e. in renaissance tuning rather than the new tuning) but with the top course down an octave. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
Hi all, I wrote: > This could be a good idea to me: I have now my smaller theorbo (Barber's > French theorbo, 76cm:8x1/140cm:6x1) stringed and tuned to high > d-theorbo, but that instrument could be easily set also to d-minor > tuning. But what would our collective "hip police" say about playing > Gaultier, Weiss, Falkenhagen, Losy, etc. by a single strung > instrument... ;-)) When I came home, took my smaller theorbo and tuned it, it was so wonderful in the high d theorbo re-entrant tuning, that I had to keep the instrument like that! :-) (BTW I even happen to have 3 of the 6 basses made of gut! ;) Instead I tuned my (in this moment single course (shudder! ;-)) archlute to a "c-minor" baroque lute - very easy: just had to retune strings 4, 3, 2 and 1. Those higher strings became a little "relaxed" (upwards): G-c-eb-g-c'-eb'. Perhaps a little "Satohish" - quite small tension on the fingerboard. ;) But as could also be expected, the long basses dominate perhaps too much, are too loud compared to the fingerboard strings. But after a while, after playing some "d-minor" stuff in my "c-minor" instrument, I found out again, that I anyhow seem to belong to the "in 4th's" gang and perhaps not so much in the "in the 3rd's" gang... ;-)) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Swan-necks on angeliques predate the > purported/alleged "invention" by some > 50 years. > RT The angelique is essentially a converted _theorbo_, not a lute. In this case, the theorboed extension was already there and the "swan-necking" was merely a characteristically French architechtural flourish of an existing product. According to Burwell, the French did _not_ favor extended necks for their actual lutes, and this was the state of that instrument as Weiss first came to know it. CW __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
> Lucas, > >What about the dm lute in ensemble music, period? > We know that there is actually a significant amount of > music for baroque lute with other instruments. > Supposedly, Weiss worked to invent the swan neck lute > especially so that it could be heard in instrumental > groups. Swan-necks on angeliques predate the purported/alleged "invention" by some 50 years. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
Lucas, What about the dm lute in ensemble music, period? We know that there is actually a significant amount of music for baroque lute with other instruments. Supposedly, Weiss worked to invent the swan neck lute especially so that it could be heard in instrumental groups. And, although we can presume that he played (dm?) theorbo in orchestral situations, there is a letter from Weiss in which he describes accompanying an aria on the lute - which he thought worked well in terms of balance only _because_ he was joined by just the basses and harpsichord. They must have worked something out in regards to temperament. I don't have much practical experience (make that, none) with this music, though. Did players of this get around the temperament issue by usually not including lute AND harpsichord in the same group? Chris --- Lucas Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have been wondering what B. Narvey and other > players who do continuo in > dmi tuning do about temperament. Normally I use > some sort of 1/6 comma > meantone arrangement in this repertoire in order to > match the > harpsichord/organ (at least on the notes of the > natural scale). However, in > dmi the sharps on the F strings (i.e., f# & g#) end > up on the high frets > (1&3), which I've found to be a problem. > > I suppose that with this 'sans chanterelle' tuning > (d,a,f,D,A,G, etc.) there > is only one F string, which would make the issue no > more a problem than in > G-lute tuning. And those high thirds are easier to > bear when they are down > on the lower F-course, in the middle of a chord > rather than exposed up on > the top voice. > > Or do you guys just play in equal temperament (and > when playing with > keyboard instruments just hope that the tuning > blends somehow)? Or just > play with high sharps, or use tastini? Does anybody > move frets 1/3 around > when playing in sharp keys? > > I would be grateful to know if anybody has > experience with this or has > thought about it. > > - Lucas Harris > > -Original Message- > From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:54 PM > To: 'Nancy Carlin'; 'David Rastall'; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question > > David and All, > > The article by Narvey is excellent, scholarly and, > given that it is factual > and not opinion, definitive. After 1680 the tuning > nuveau in Dm spread with > the "Enlightenment" movement to include lutes and > theorbos played in > northern Europe. Only the Italians and those under > their influence - aka > Vienna - are reported to have stuck with the > renaissance tuning. Very large > theorbos and chittarone handled the problems of > string length - 89cm on the > fingerboard not unusual - by either adopting a mock > reentrant tuning and > lowering the first or first and second course an > octave or, more > inventively, just dropping out the first course > tuning and opting for > d,a,f,D,A,G, etc. > > Having played continuo in Dm tuning on my 76/120 > "theorbo" lute, I can say > that it falls readily to hand and many chords (in > keys popular with the > bowed instruments, barokflaute and recorders, like > F,C & G, are easier in > the Dm tuned lute. All this is my opinion, I could > be wrong. > > Best, > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > -Original Message- > From: Nancy Carlin > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:46 PM > To: David Rastall; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question > > The Lute Society of America just published a nice > article on this subject > written by Benjamin Narvey. Some of you who are not > members might not have > seen it. Anyone who thinks they might want to join > the LSA can email me off > the list and will send them a copy of this issue. > > Nancy Carlin > LSA Administrator > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
Howard et al, Actually there is apparently, reading Narvey, considerable evidence that English theorbists adopted the Dm tuning despite it being a French initiative. Go figger' huh? Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:26 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question On Thursday, Oct 5, 2006, at 22:21 America/Los_Angeles, LGS-Europe wrote: >> After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread with the "Enlightenment" >> movement to include lutes and theorbos played in northern Europe. > > Don't forget the mandora, very nortern Europe, too, that stayed in old > tuning. > > David And the English theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
In einer eMail vom 06.10.2006 09:26:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > But what would our collective "hip police" say about playing > Gaultier, Weiss, Falkenhagen, Losy, etc. by a single strung > instrument... ;-)) > > Arto > Nothing new about that have a look here http://www.pianca-ghielmi.com/images/luca_breton.jpg He uses such an instrument for playing "baroque lute"repertoire. To clear the sting/single string thing it is clear from the chanel 4 video that the archlutes (from both players) were single strung, but it seems that they are Edin is now using a double strung lute in recent performances and maybe on some of the CD. Again I must say "do what thou wilt" if you love those single strung archlutes, then sing their praises and tell you audience that you are playing a wonderful modernised instrument, it's not a sin. Personally I like the way those old instruments work and sound and being louder or having an instrument that is easier to play are not my priorites. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
Hi all > Yet another theorbo question. It seems to me that a moderately-sized > solo theorbo in D minor tuning would be a good all-purpose Baroque > lute upon which one could play the "modern" late 17th/early 18th- > century continuo, as well as all the German (and maybe even some of > the French?) Baroque lute repertoire. I'm wondering if there is any > historical evidence to suggest that theorbo players (moderately-sized > theorbo players? ;-)) did that. This could be a good idea to me: I have now my smaller theorbo (Barber's French theorbo, 76cm:8x1/140cm:6x1) stringed and tuned to high d-theorbo, but that instrument could be easily set also to d-minor tuning. But what would our collective "hip police" say about playing Gaultier, Weiss, Falkenhagen, Losy, etc. by a single strung instrument... ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
On Thursday, Oct 5, 2006, at 22:21 America/Los_Angeles, LGS-Europe wrote: >> After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread >> with >> the "Enlightenment" movement to include lutes and theorbos played in >> northern Europe. > > Don't forget the mandora, very nortern Europe, too, that stayed in old > tuning. > > David And the English theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
> and not opinion, definitive. After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread > with > the "Enlightenment" movement to include lutes and theorbos played in > northern Europe. Don't forget the mandora, very nortern Europe, too, that stayed in old tuning. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
I have been wondering what B. Narvey and other players who do continuo in dmi tuning do about temperament. Normally I use some sort of 1/6 comma meantone arrangement in this repertoire in order to match the harpsichord/organ (at least on the notes of the natural scale). However, in dmi the sharps on the F strings (i.e., f# & g#) end up on the high frets (1&3), which I've found to be a problem. I suppose that with this 'sans chanterelle' tuning (d,a,f,D,A,G, etc.) there is only one F string, which would make the issue no more a problem than in G-lute tuning. And those high thirds are easier to bear when they are down on the lower F-course, in the middle of a chord rather than exposed up on the top voice. Or do you guys just play in equal temperament (and when playing with keyboard instruments just hope that the tuning blends somehow)? Or just play with high sharps, or use tastini? Does anybody move frets 1/3 around when playing in sharp keys? I would be grateful to know if anybody has experience with this or has thought about it. - Lucas Harris -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:54 PM To: 'Nancy Carlin'; 'David Rastall'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question David and All, The article by Narvey is excellent, scholarly and, given that it is factual and not opinion, definitive. After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread with the "Enlightenment" movement to include lutes and theorbos played in northern Europe. Only the Italians and those under their influence - aka Vienna - are reported to have stuck with the renaissance tuning. Very large theorbos and chittarone handled the problems of string length - 89cm on the fingerboard not unusual - by either adopting a mock reentrant tuning and lowering the first or first and second course an octave or, more inventively, just dropping out the first course tuning and opting for d,a,f,D,A,G, etc. Having played continuo in Dm tuning on my 76/120 "theorbo" lute, I can say that it falls readily to hand and many chords (in keys popular with the bowed instruments, barokflaute and recorders, like F,C & G, are easier in the Dm tuned lute. All this is my opinion, I could be wrong. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Nancy Carlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:46 PM To: David Rastall; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question The Lute Society of America just published a nice article on this subject written by Benjamin Narvey. Some of you who are not members might not have seen it. Anyone who thinks they might want to join the LSA can email me off the list and will send them a copy of this issue. Nancy Carlin LSA Administrator To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
David and All, The article by Narvey is excellent, scholarly and, given that it is factual and not opinion, definitive. After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread with the "Enlightenment" movement to include lutes and theorbos played in northern Europe. Only the Italians and those under their influence - aka Vienna - are reported to have stuck with the renaissance tuning. Very large theorbos and chittarone handled the problems of string length - 89cm on the fingerboard not unusual - by either adopting a mock reentrant tuning and lowering the first or first and second course an octave or, more inventively, just dropping out the first course tuning and opting for d,a,f,D,A,G, etc. Having played continuo in Dm tuning on my 76/120 "theorbo" lute, I can say that it falls readily to hand and many chords (in keys popular with the bowed instruments, barokflaute and recorders, like F,C & G, are easier in the Dm tuned lute. All this is my opinion, I could be wrong. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Nancy Carlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:46 PM To: David Rastall; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question The Lute Society of America just published a nice article on this subject written by Benjamin Narvey. Some of you who are not members might not have seen it. Anyone who thinks they might want to join the LSA can email me off the list and will send them a copy of this issue. Nancy Carlin LSA Administrator To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
The Lute Society of America just published a nice article on this subject written by Benjamin Narvey. Some of you who are not members might not have seen it. Anyone who thinks they might want to join the LSA can email me off the list and will send them a copy of this issue. Nancy Carlin LSA Administrator >Yet another theorbo question. It seems to me that a moderately-sized >solo theorbo in D minor tuning would be a good all-purpose Baroque >lute upon which one could play the "modern" late 17th/early 18th- >century continuo, as well as all the German (and maybe even some of >the French?) Baroque lute repertoire. I'm wondering if there is any >historical evidence to suggest that theorbo players (moderately-sized >theorbo players? ;-)) did that. We have E. G. Baron's comments about >the theorbos of his day being played in D minor tuning, but is there >any historical evidence to suggest that theorbos were put into D >minor tuning during the 17th-century? > >David R >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >www.rastallmusic.com > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[LUTE] Another Theorbo Question
Dear Luters, Yet another theorbo question. It seems to me that a moderately-sized solo theorbo in D minor tuning would be a good all-purpose Baroque lute upon which one could play the "modern" late 17th/early 18th- century continuo, as well as all the German (and maybe even some of the French?) Baroque lute repertoire. I'm wondering if there is any historical evidence to suggest that theorbo players (moderately-sized theorbo players? ;-)) did that. We have E. G. Baron's comments about the theorbos of his day being played in D minor tuning, but is there any historical evidence to suggest that theorbos were put into D minor tuning during the 17th-century? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Theorbo Questions
Dear list, Many thanks to those of you who responded to my recent questions regarding theorbos. Your input is much appreciated. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
Chris sent this additional information. === > Dear Arthur > > Tempus fugit indeed! > > Boethius/Severinus facsimiles are now sold by Jacks, > Pipes and Hammers - you > can see their ad in LSAQ - e.g. on p. 10 of the > February 2006 number > > all the best > Chris Goodwin > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
David, The body of the lute/theorbo - particularly the t'bo - affects the sound profile immensely. By body shape we actually mean the shape and volume of the air cavity within the body and how its volume and distribution affect the propagation of the vibrations of the sound board. Likewise, the size and placement of the rosette, the barring of the board and location and mass of the bridge pose their own effects not to mention the MOL (modulus of elasticity) and directional stiffness characteristics of the soundboard material itself. For instance, comparing three bodies with which I have some experience, the Frei body, the "big" Dieffopruchar and the "little" Dieffopruchar. The big Dieff has a "rounder" and more mellow sound in which the basses can become muddy if the sustain is too great. The soundboard must therefore be carefully barred to preclude this. It seems to provide adequate projection if sufficient string length and tension are used and certainly provides a stunning visual effect if the traditional 86/160cm lengths are used. The Frei, in contrast, tends to have a more complex tonal profile with a strong "core" tone reminiscent of a good guitar but with a coppery, bright overtone floating over the core. This slightly imposing brightness gives the little Frei a presence that belies its physical size and t'bos of 74/140cm are quite loud and useful in ensemble (not to mention much easier to transport). The little Dieffopruchar fall somewhere in between. The popular Hoffmann, in my observation, is too deep so as to provide sufficient brightness for penetration without silver overspuns in the bass and all the way up to the 4th crs. Again, there is a risk of the basses becoming muddy if the instrument is not barred for a shorter sustain in these "grand piano" basses. All that's the long way around saying that size does matter, particularly in the body cavity. Each body seems to have a tonal profile and a Frei is a Frei regardless of whether it's an 11crs or a t'bo. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:14 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] theorbo question Dear collective wisdom. I'm finding out about some of the size variants available in theorboes. For example, I've been looking at one which is 79 cm playing length on the fingerboard, and 159 cm on the diapasons. That seems quite a long neck extension since, with 10 frets on the fingerboard, the body is not exactly huge. I've also seen theorboes with larger bodies with eight or nine frets on the fingerboard and around 120 cm.diapasons: large body, short neck extension. So my question is: which is more important to the production of a full, substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or a large body? Or is it a combination of both? Another continuo question: is it appropriate to ornament the bass line? Either in basso continuo situations, or as part of the bass part of a Baroque lute piece? Thanks for your thoughts on this, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo Question
If one is so fortunate as to be able to play a lute or theorbo prior to purchase and you can bring along someone knowledgeable to listen to you play it, I'd add the suggestion you should bring along someone (hopefully the same person) whose playing you trust to play it, too, so you can listen to the instrument. Over the years, based on personal experience with lutes, guitars, recorders, trumpets and french horns, I've found any individual instrument will sound different out front (listening) than it does sitting behind it (playing). Just my two cents, Steve -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
--- Herbert Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At some places, I've even learned to hold back > when I > > use the small guy so that the sound doesn't get > too > > annoying. > > Once I saw a Steinway baby grand that had a nicer > bass than a larger Steinway a few feet away. Not > louder, but clearer and more musical. Is this > phenomenon also possible in theorboes and lutes? > Herbert, I'm sure it is possible with lutes (my experience with theorbos supports this.) However, I perhaps should have added that, like so many other things - it depends. There are so many variables that go into instrument construction that the best advice is always to try out a lute (or anything) before you buy. ..and of course bring along someone else very knowledgable about lute things to listen to you play. ..and ask the seller if you can borrow the lute for a year to see how it handles in different acoustics. ;-) Sadly, whether we're buying a used instrument sight unseen/heard on Wayne's Lute Page or having a new one built, so many of us (myself included) don't get to even pluck a chord before we get the thing. Forget about measuring up how it will do in the "real world"! Anyway, I started out my last message saying that when it comes to theorbos, "bigger isn't _always_ better." Undoubtedly, sometimes it is. We just don't know until we get the thing in our hands for a while. Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
> At some places, I've even learned to hold back when I > use the small guy so that the sound doesn't get too > annoying. Once I saw a Steinway baby grand that had a nicer bass than a larger Steinway a few feet away. Not louder, but clearer and more musical. Is this phenomenon also possible in theorboes and lutes? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
Arthur Ness écrit: >When Boethius took clerical orders, he took the name >Severinus. Check Severinus Press. It's still in print: Great! Thanks, Arthur. Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
David, I have to disagree with the prevailing opinion somewhat: bigger is not always better. I speak from some experience, owning both a gigantic theorbo (99cm on the board(!), diapasons around 6 1/2 feet long) and a smaller one (76cm fingerboard/119 diapasons). Nowadays I use the small one for almost everything. The large one FELT great when I played it in ensembles. Big, booming bass, lots of all-around resonance. But a huge hastle to lug around and a pain to play. When, for convenience sake, I brought my small theorbo, I felt lost in the group. So, other than ease of transport/playing, why would I want to use this small one for groups? Simple: the sound that actually gets out front. I listened to recordings of myself with these groups, sometimes even rehearsals of the same piece played by turns on both instruments. I could tell that the big one had a richer sound, but this was only when I was accompanying a single singer or instrument with no other bass. Whenever there was more than one other person involved - be that two singers/players or even just a bowed bass playing along, much of that richness was covered. There was one area in which the smaller one clearly WAS superior, however: orchestral tuttis. With ol' Frankenstein, I might as well have left and gotten a bite to eat whenever there was a passage multiple instruments. My small one cut right through the mix. At some places, I've even learned to hold back when I use the small guy so that the sound doesn't get too annoying. And another benefit to the small one: what it lacks in tonal richness in sparse passages is more than made up for by the fact that I can play more intricate accompaniments there. I should mention strings: I use some gut and some synthetics on my big theorbo, all synthetic on the small one. Possibly with all modern gut, my experience would be different. This reminds me of what I was always told about evolution of guitar in undergraduate school: the modern classical guitar wit high tension is an "improvement" over the 19th century style because it is "so much louder and better" sounding. This simply isn't true. The 19th century guitar has a special character all its own. Not as deep or rich, but punchier and just as easy to hear as the modern guitar. Of course there's another area of theorbo playing in which the small one does better, too: solo music. I used it for all of my Hurel CD. Chris --- David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear collective wisdom. > > I'm finding out about some of the size variants > available in > theorboes. For example, I've been looking at one > which is 79 cm > playing length on the fingerboard, and 159 cm on the > diapasons. That > seems quite a long neck extension since, with 10 > frets on the > fingerboard, the body is not exactly huge. I've > also seen theorboes > with larger bodies with eight or nine frets on the > fingerboard and > around 120 cm.diapasons: large body, short neck > extension. So my > question is: which is more important to the > production of a full, > substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or > a large body? Or > is it a combination of both? > > Another continuo question: is it appropriate to > ornament the bass > line? Either in basso continuo situations, or as > part of the bass > part of a Baroque lute piece? > > Thanks for your thoughts on this, > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
((PS. I found it, Chris!)) When Boethius took clerical orders, he took the name Severinus. Check Severinus Press. It's still in print: http://www.severinus.co.uk/lute04.htm#chit Lots of other nice things at that site. See the home page. http://www.severinus.co.uk/index.htm ajn. - Original Message - From: "dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo question > LGS-Europe écrit: >> For a good general introduction to theorbo playing >> turn to Kevin >>Mason's "The Chitarrone and its repertoire in early >>seventeenth-century >>Italy" (Boethius 1989) > > Hello David, > > This sounds very interesting, but it seems to be out > of print. Does anyone > know where one could find a copy? > > Thanks, > > Dennis > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
Dear David and All: I would say a larger body is more important, because it takes a "critical mass" of top area to reproduce that bass note, sort of like a bass drum. That is one reason why many archlutes are deficient in the bass register, in my opinion. A luthier once showed me an archlute he was making (actually just the top) and I remarked on how wide it was relative to that of a tenor lute. He replied that that was the key to making it work in the bass. So it seems to me that the top either must be longer -- as on theorbos -- or wider, as this luthier advocated for his archlute -- for the bass register to be effective. Cheers, Jim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
LGS-Europe écrit: > For a good general introduction to theorbo playing turn to Kevin >Mason's "The Chitarrone and its repertoire in early seventeenth-century >Italy" (Boethius 1989) Hello David, This sounds very interesting, but it seems to be out of print. Does anyone know where one could find a copy? Thanks, Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
Dear David > question is: which is more important to the production of a full, > substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or a large body? Or > is it a combination of both? For theorbos it's simple: bigger is better. Big body, long stopped strings, long diapassons. You want to have big, booming, low, full, sustaining sound. The only limits are practicality: size of hands, arms, room, car or airplane seat (if only, these days). If you're only going to play French solo music you might consider a French theorbo, tuned in d, that is smaller in size. A one-for-all theorbo should be as big as you feel you can handle comfortably. Fashion these days seems to be in the low to middle 80s for the stopped strings. For the diapassons I'd recommend at least 140cm, but it's possible to have a good sound with shorter strings, too. Stephen and Sandi made me a small archlute with a diapasson length of only 105cm. Single gut strings still give me a booming low G, but this is about the limit. Bigger is better. > Another continuo question: is it appropriate to ornament the bass > line? Either in basso continuo situations, Yes. The function of a theorbo in continuo is twofold: as melody instrument to take care of the bass line and as chord instrument to take care of the harmony. Often these two are combined. If your only job is to play the bass line you are expected to ornament it. There are treatitses on this, with examples. For a good general introduction to theorbo playing turn to Kevin Mason's "The Chitarrone and its repertoire in early seventeenth-century Italy" (Boethius 1989) and the introductory chapters of Nigel North's "Continuo playing on the lute, archlute and theorbo" (Faber & Faber 1987). David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
Just on your first question, I understand, based on conversations with various luthiers, that both are relevant in different ways. The longer stringlength allows you to use gut basses with a deeper sound, while the size of the body affects the timbre or tone of the sound. David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear collective wisdom. I'm finding out about some of the size variants available in theorboes. For example, I've been looking at one which is 79 cm playing length on the fingerboard, and 159 cm on the diapasons. That seems quite a long neck extension since, with 10 frets on the fingerboard, the body is not exactly huge. I've also seen theorboes with larger bodies with eight or nine frets on the fingerboard and around 120 cm.diapasons: large body, short neck extension. So my question is: which is more important to the production of a full, substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or a large body? Or is it a combination of both? Another continuo question: is it appropriate to ornament the bass line? Either in basso continuo situations, or as part of the bass part of a Baroque lute piece? Thanks for your thoughts on this, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --
[LUTE] theorbo question
Dear collective wisdom. I'm finding out about some of the size variants available in theorboes. For example, I've been looking at one which is 79 cm playing length on the fingerboard, and 159 cm on the diapasons. That seems quite a long neck extension since, with 10 frets on the fingerboard, the body is not exactly huge. I've also seen theorboes with larger bodies with eight or nine frets on the fingerboard and around 120 cm.diapasons: large body, short neck extension. So my question is: which is more important to the production of a full, substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or a large body? Or is it a combination of both? Another continuo question: is it appropriate to ornament the bass line? Either in basso continuo situations, or as part of the bass part of a Baroque lute piece? Thanks for your thoughts on this, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: One marking in Saizenay ms, theorbo tab?
- Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] One marking in Saizenay ms, theorbo tab? > Dear collective wisdom, > > in the Saizenay ms. there is is a marking in one theorbo piece that is > (probably) borrowed from guitar tabulature signs. In the beginning of > the Chaconne, in page 288, there is the chord progression named "pour la > Chaconne", where the writer has used eight notes after the chords. The > notes are pointing upwards - I mean the flag is up. I suppose that means > that you have to stroke the chord with one finger. But what about the > direction? How is in (French) mixed guitar alfabeto? Note pointing up - > a stroke from bass to discant or the opposite? Or perhaps that marking > in theorbo tabulature means something else? Your interpretation seems more than reasonable and is in line with how an upward stroke appears in guitar pieces of Mr de Visee himself (who is so widely featured in the MS). Also there doesn't seem to be any point in placing 'quavers' at the beginning of this chord progression example and at the start of the bars if an upward pointing flag was there for some other reason ... I would think. An upward stroke is from the first string up, towards the chin ;0) > PS BTW, at the the of the Chaconne the final variation has interesting > division of quarter notes to 5! .. distracted by the passing by ladies perhaps ;)) Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] One marking in Saizenay ms, theorbo tab?
Dear collective wisdom, in the Saizenay ms. there is is a marking in one theorbo piece that is (probably) borrowed from guitar tabulature signs. In the beginning of the Chaconne, in page 288, there is the chord progression named "pour la Chaconne", where the writer has used eight notes after the chords. The notes are pointing upwards - I mean the flag is up. I suppose that means that you have to stroke the chord with one finger. But what about the direction? How is in (French) mixed guitar alfabeto? Note pointing up - a stroke from bass to discant or the opposite? Or perhaps that marking in theorbo tabulature means something else? All the best, Arto PS BTW, at the the of the Chaconne the final variation has interesting division of quarter notes to 5! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo music French tab
There is such a publication, but - without having seen it myself - I think it's probably archlute/liuto attiorbato music, rather than theorbo. This is what it says on the Society's website: Selections from Piccinini and Kapsberger for Solo Renaissance Lute transribed into French tablature and edited by Carin Zwilling, with biographical and bibliographical notes. Six pieces by Piccinini and four by Kapsberger in a variety of forms, for 7 to 10-course lute, mostly playable on 7-course lute, intended as a 'taster' of these composers' works, 34 pages. ISBN 0 905655 26 5 Members: £4 / $7 / E6 non-members: £6 / $11 /E9 Postage: Band B -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 September 2006 14:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Theorbo music French tab Dear Dick and All: Even more helpful, hasn't the Lute Society in England actually published a volume of Piccinini and Kapsberger in French tab for 10-course lute? Cheers, Jim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo music French tab
Dear Dick and All: Even more helpful, hasn't the Lute Society in England actually published a volume of Piccinini and Kapsberger in French tab for 10-course lute? Cheers, Jim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo music French tab
"jim abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Not a very helpful answer, was that? tnx Jim, yer always so helpful. -- Regards, Mathias > How about this: there are a number of intabulations online at the following > locations: > > http://luth-librairie.ifrance.com/ > > http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/ELF/ELF2.html (especially > http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/%7Egls/DjangoFiles/Baroque_theorbo.xml) > > http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/ > > The first two locations are your best bet. Both have most of the pieces you > need (I think) in Django format. Django is a tab maker/viewer available for > free (in a limited version) at the first website. > > Jim > > > On 9/10/06, "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > "Richard Brook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > Does anyone know whether Theorbo solo music, particularly from > > > "Intavolature Di Chitarrone," Kapsberger, Piccinini, and Viviani has > > > been put into French tab? > > > > With modern tablature programmes, you can do that yourself with a > > click. > > -- > > Best, > > Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo music French tab
Not a very helpful answer, was that? How about this: there are a number of intabulations online at the following locations: http://luth-librairie.ifrance.com/ http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/ELF/ELF2.html (especially http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/%7Egls/DjangoFiles/Baroque_theorbo.xml) http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/ The first two locations are your best bet. Both have most of the pieces you need (I think) in Django format. Django is a tab maker/viewer available for free (in a limited version) at the first website. Jim On 9/10/06, "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Richard Brook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > Does anyone know whether Theorbo solo music, particularly from > > "Intavolature Di Chitarrone," Kapsberger, Piccinini, and Viviani has > > been put into French tab? > > With modern tablature programmes, you can do that yourself with a > click. > -- > Best, > > Mathias > > http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com > http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel > http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Theorbo music French tab
Does anyone know whether Theorbo solo music, particularly from "Intavolature Di Chitarrone," Kapsberger, Piccinini, and Viviani has been put into French tab? Thanks, Dick Brook To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frets on a theorbo
Hoi Taco > My theorbo with gutstrings needs to have the frets with an angle to the > strings to get a correct tone. I.e. the fret needs to be shifted in the > direction of the pegbox on the side where you look, while at the side of > the > handpalm they stay at the original location, starting with fret no 3. It's > not very much, but the only one I know who has the same experience is > David. We are not alone. There's quite a number of theorbo and lute players with gut basses out there that need to adjust the frets for their basses. Some classical guitars will have compensation for the thick, third string build in the bridge, we do it with our frets for the thick bass strings. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Frets on a theorbo
On Friday 01 September 2006 03:31, you wrote: dear all, Just a question what came to mind reading the mails on frets. My theorbo with gutstrings needs to have the frets with an angle to the strings to get a correct tone. I.e. the fret needs to be shifted in the direction of the pegbox on the side where you look, while at the side of the handpalm they stay at the original location, starting with fret no 3. It's not very much, but the only one I know who has the same experience is David. Do others have the same experience on their instruments? Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
