Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Robert J Lynn Jr" [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? It still requires a computer ($500) and a CD-R burner ($120 old model). I admit, i use my MD for most of my MP3 music on om computer, but I like to take notes with my mic and record off friends at school. So, rules out MP3. Rob...if you'll read Mike's original post then you'll please note that I was responding to specific issues which HE raised (ie : media cost and media capacity). Using internet audio obviously requires a computer and I would venture to say that most if not all of the members of this list actually HAVE one of those. So that's a non-issue. And as far as a CD-R drive is concerned...if you don't have one yet come on and join the fun bro...the 21st century is here. :-D CD writers are practically de rigeur among computer users today. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Basic MD questions
Hi Paul, I've decided that I need a (relatively) inexpensive, compact, high-quality sound recorder for audio for my short films. (my video camera has no mic jack) MD looks like the way to go, though I still have a few queries (applying to the Sony MZR70 specifically) You might want to have a look at: http://www.dv.com/magazine/2000/1200/rose1200.html Gabriele - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: Grundig deck?
I've seen on the Dixons web site ( www.dixons.co.uk), Grundig mini disc deck which is called Grundig MD-60. It's from their Fine Arts series. I suppose it's not original by Grundig, and would like to know is it a clone of Pioneer or Technics ( or even Sony, which seems less likely)? Also, it would be nice to know something more about the unit? IP P.S. It cost 99 English pounds. Cheap? - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Don Capps wrote: I wouldn't know Mike. My Expanium uses CD-R and CD-RW media which costs me approximately 80 cents per disc. And each disc has the capacity to hold well over one hundred songs even at high bitrates (say 192kbps). That works out to 8 plus hours of VERY high quality (ie: practically indistinguishable from the CD) music on one 80 cent disc. You do the math. I disagree about the quality of MP3s and seriously doubt that you can tell the difference between an MP3 recorded at the "standard" 128 and 192Kbps. All you are doing is using up more disc space. I do find most MP3 files acceptable, but don't think that their sound quality is equal to an MD copy of a CD recorded with the latest version of ATRAC. This is one area where a feel strongly that double blind studies would make it impossible for you to detect the difference. Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Aiwa F80 - the best portable recorder for live gigs
Crak Therapy wrote: so if you're thinking about getting a recorder primarily for live recording the f80 is the best there is(except for lack of lp), unless of course you want to buy my r90 :) As I have stated many times before, I'm not a big Sony fan. As for the smaller size of the MZ-90, I think there is a point where you can over make something too small. I have an Aiwa F70. To the best of my knowledge, the F70 and 80 are very similar with the exception that there are actually more features on the older F70! That's odd, isn't it. For all of those people claiming that Aiwas and Sonys are the same product, it just ain't true. They have nothing in common. I'm not sure if Sony owns all of Aiwa or just a part. But they are two totally different companies. Their design philosophies are very different. Aiwa does not have a reputation for any high end products. But what they make, I feel, gives you the most bang for the buck. Sam's club sells a cassette car unit for $99 (that even comes with 2 so so 6 1/2" speakers!). Surprising the quality of the sound from the car unit is very good. My son paid much more for a JVC (before I discovered the Aiwa). The Aiwa is actually a much more sophisticated unit with better sound (I have used both in he same car-not at the same time). Plus all Aiwa car stereos had an Aux jack. There is a noticeable improvement when switching to the Aiwa. Noticeable. Not small enough that it is just a question of mind over matter. As far as reliability goes, I'd trust the Aiwa over the Sony! I have had absolutely terrible luck with almost every Sony product that I have owned. Even the remote on my Sony high end portable CD player with digital out does not work and I hardly used the unit!! Just my 2 cents. Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
How long is this mp3 vs. md war going to last Face it. MD is best for portable recording. MP3 is best for portable playing. MP3 players/MP3 cd players CAN'T record! So why are mp3 players being compared to minidisc recorders? IMHO minidisc units that can only play are a bit useless. If you only want to play music, and have it portable, go for a mp3 player. If you want portable recording, go for MD and forget mp3. MP3 player cons: * Solid state media is expensive * CD media needs a PC + WRITER * You can't generally record when you like to. * Solid state players can actually hold very little music, even if your player can do 128 meg cards. * No editing features available for music. * Standard bit rate mp3's (128 Kbps) actually lose a lot of quality when played over hi-fi's MP3 player pros: * More of an accepted format * Media can be played on both player and pc without hassles * For solid state: Transfer of tunes are much easier * For solid state: No moving parts. Will probably last longer, if looked after. MD recorder cons: * Recorders are rarely cheaper than 150 pounds (correct me if I'm wrong) * MD media is more expensive than CDR media * Going from MP3 to MD means you go through two lossy compression methods. MD recorder pros: * Excellent lossy sound compression (Good quality) * Record when you want, where you want. * The discs generally look more futuristic and high tech. Hehehehe. Impress family and friends :-) * Nice editing features available. * Can easily transfer music from MP3 to MD, MD to MD, CD to MD, basically anything to MD. * Newer models e.g. Sharp Mt-77, provide easy pc connectivity, for mp3 music, making mp3 storage on md seamless. There is probably more stuff I can't remember. Please don't flame me over this e-mail. This is simply the conclusion I have made, and I'm not trying to say mp3 is better than MD, or vice versa. I'm simply saying: Both have their places, and they are not necessarily trying to compete. Give the mp3 vs. md war a rest. This is a minidisc forum after all, not a music format debate? In anywayjust my 2c or 2p worth. Cheers. Gerard Naude E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: MiniDisc Weekly News for 11 February 2001
MiniDisc Community Pages News for 4 February 2001 o Get your MiniDisc watches here! We have a feeling that the actual product won't live up to its description, but you can enjoy checking out iGadget's deal of a [1]Sony MZ-R33 watch model (complete with true analog watch hands!). [1] http://www.igadget.com/noname2.html o Beyond HiFi (UK) stocks a few exotic blank MDs from TDK's XS-iV design line: [2]"Alien Rock", [3]"Out Of This World", and [4]"Brainstorm". [2] http://www.beyondhifi.com/default.asp?ProductID=534CatID=194 [3] http://www.beyondhifi.com/default.asp?ProductID=534CatID=194 [4] http://www.beyondhifi.com/default.asp?ProductID=535CatID=194 o Learn more about Sony's ATRAC3 in this [5]PDF TechnoWorld article found by Howard Chu. [5] http://www.minidisc.org/atrac3_article.pdf o No audio format can keep everyone happy... this is particularly evident in [6]Andrew's Audio HiFi Recommendations page, where he describes MiniDiscs as "junk and total waste of time and money." [6] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/1484/audio.htm o Oliver finds [7]Friend-Chip audio format converters with SCMS management. [7] http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jul99/articles/friendchips.htm MiniDisc Community Pages News for 7 February 2001 o Irage collects a plethora of PDF MiniDisc manuals: JVC models [1]MX-WM90, [2]XM-448BK, [3]XM-EX90, [4]XM-P55, and [5]XM-PJ1BU; Sony models [6]MDS-JA20ES, [7]MDS-JA555ES, [8]MDS-S40, [9]MXD-D3, [10]MZ-E90, [11]MZ-R37SP, and [12]ZS-M35. [1] http://www.minidisc.org/jvc_mxwmd90_manual.pdf [2] http://www.minidisc.org/jvc_xm448bk_manual.pdf [3] http://www.minidisc.org/jvc_xmex90_manual.pdf [4] http://www.minidisc.org/jvc_xmp55_manual.pdf [5] http://www.minidisc.org/jvc_xmpj1bu [6] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdsja20es_manual.pdf [7] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdsja555es_manual.pdf [8] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdss40_manual.pdf [9] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mxdd3_manual.pdf [10] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mze90_manual.pdf [11] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mzr37sp_manual.pdf [12] http://www.minidisc.org/sony_zsm35_manual.pdf o Overstock.com is selling a [13]Pioneer MJD508 MD deck for USD $199 with free shipping (deal found by Kakey Chan). [13] http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAMEPROD_ID=14790fp=T o T's page sports [14]photos of several new MDLP units: the Sharp MD-ST70 portable MD player, the Pioneer MEH-P777 and Kenwood RX-780MD in-dash MD receivers, and the Kenwood MDX-G3 boombox (with world FM band tuner). [14] http://members.nbci.com/md_data/ MiniDisc Community Pages News for 9 February 2001 o T-Station is running a [1]MiniDisc Flash contest, where people can submit their MD-related MD Flash presentations for a chance at winning a Kenwood MD player. Contest ends March 10th. [1] http://www.minidisct.com/md.html o A [2]Sony Japanese press release found by Peter Ravn notes a car CD player that can also play back a CD burned with MP3 files. [2] http://www.sony.co.jp/sd/CorporateCruise/Press/200102/01-0206/ Q: Isn't it true, Mr. President, that you purchase all your MiniDisc gear from Minidisco.com? A: No comment. http://www.minidisco.com/ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "las" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I disagree about the quality of MP3s and seriously doubt that you can tell the difference between an MP3 recorded at the "standard" 128 and 192Kbps. All you are doing is using up more disc space. You can disagree all you like Larry. But in AB comparison where A is the original cd and B is a 192kbps mp3 file, the file is sonically indistinguishable from the original cd. That was my point. And yes, that is on a high quality playback system. My Turtle Beach soundcard has RCA stereo outputs being fed to a Denon integrated amp driving Mission speakers and an old MK sub which I retired a few years back from my main home theater system. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Gerard Naude" [EMAIL PROTECTED] How long is this mp3 vs. md war going to last Whew. Silly me. I didn't know there was a war on. :-) Face it. MD is best for portable recording. MP3 is best for portable playing. I quite agree. That's what I have said from the beginning. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: Interesting article...
From: "Gabriele Intemann" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You might want to have a look at: http://www.dv.com/magazine/2000/1200/rose1200.html ...thanks for the link Gabriele. I wonder if anyone noticed the following quote toward the end of the article. "MiniDisc is used a lot in Hollywood for playback as well. Because its speed is stable, performers can dance or lipsync to it for music videos. Its fast cueing and easy-to-edit track markers make it very flexible in the field...etc...etc." This quote (along with others sprinkled throughout the article) only confirm what I suggested in a previous post...that Mini Disc will be around for the foreseeable future because of it's widespread use in the field of professional pre/post production audio recording. True, you may not be able to find a large selection at the local Circuit City in the near future. But MD is being used extensively by recording professionals (particularly in the film industry). And that fact alone will insure it's survival long after it fades as a mass market consumer medium, even as it did for DAT before it. So fear not Mini Disc lovers...the medium is safe...although you may soon have to shop with pro audio suppliers for equipment and blank media. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Grundig deck?
From: "Ivica Petrovic" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've seen on the Dixons web site ( www.dixons.co.uk), Grundig mini disc deck which is called Grundig MD-60. It's from their Fine Arts series. I suppose it's not original by Grundig, and would like to know is it a clone of Pioneer or Technics ( or even Sony, which seems less likely)? A playback only unit, from what I can see. Doesn't record. Which accounts for the lower price. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Aiwa F80 - the best portable recorder for live gigs
From: "las" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a noticeable improvement when switching to the Aiwa. Noticeable. Not small enough that it is just a question of mind over matter. Have you tested this under double blind conditions? :-D Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
I definitely don't concour with your affirmation. I own a Cassiopeia, which can double as an MP3 player, and I *never* use it. Never. Why? CompactFlash is too expensive. MP3 doesn't sound quite right (IMHO). The only advantage is that I can send the files from my computer to my player. That's it. I am left with about an hour of the same music, over and over again, unless I re-connect and download. With an MD, I simply pop out the disc, pop in a new one. Cheap, inexpensive, easy. Personally, I think MP3 players are a big hit with... ahem... how to put this politely... people who don't like paying for their music (aka Napster users). And that's it. Francisco. - Original Message - From: "Gerard Naude" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: RE: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ?? How long is this mp3 vs. md war going to last Face it. MD is best for portable recording. MP3 is best for portable playing. MP3 players/MP3 cd players CAN'T record! - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Francisco J. Huerta" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally, I think MP3 players are a big hit with... ahem... how to put this politely... people who don't like paying for their music (aka Napster users). And that's it. Are you trying to say that MD users never make copies of CDs which they don't actually own? Are you going to tell me that you've never made an MD copy of a friends CD or a borrowed CD? Do you seriously think that the only people who use MP3 players are people who download their music exclusively from Napster? Francisco...ahem...how to put this politely...bullshit. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Are you trying to say that MD users never make copies of CDs which they don't actually own? Are you going to tell me that you've never made an MD copy of a friends CD or a borrowed CD? No. I was implying that it is WAY more difficult to go through the whole ordeal of buying and connecting an MD to a CD player, making the copy, and then realizing that your copy will only play in the (less available) MDs. Even then, someone near to you would have bought the original media in order for you to copy. Napster, OTOH, only needs you to get the software, connect to the Internet, and download at will. It doesn't matter who actually bought the CD, since most probably your MP3 copy will be an "n" generation copy. Thus, you can get practically every song in existence with no effort. Do you seriously think that the only people who use MP3 players are people who download their music exclusively from Napster? I don't like percentages. But I would say that the majority of portable MP3 users got their music ilegally. Why? Because it is way easier and cheaper to do so. MD doesn't have that kind of flexibility, and it isn't as simple to create a CD out of an MD (without the proper equipment), so it doesn't advocate piracy as much as MP3s. Do you really think that people use MP3s because of their "ease of use", their "cross compatibility" or stuff like that? Nah. They use it because they are free. Francisco...ahem...how to put this politely...bullshit. Don C. Don, you really have to understand that most of the people have their own opinions. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm full of it. Francisco. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Grundig deck?
From: "Ivica Petrovic" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've seen on the Dixons web site ( www.dixons.co.uk), Grundig mini disc deck which is called Grundig MD-60. It's from their Fine Arts series. I suppose it's not original by Grundig, and would like to know is it a clone of Pioneer or Technics ( or even Sony, which seems less likely)? A playback only unit, from what I can see. Doesn't record. Which accounts for the lower price. Don C. It is described on Dixons' web site as the "Grundig MD-60 Minidisc Record Deck", and looking at the pic of it (using the zoom option) the three rotary dials to the left of the disc input/display are (from left) phone level, record level, jog dial. To the right side of the display are a row of six switches whose functions I cannot read but the left three are under a Record select (or similar) label, the right three are Play select. It certainly is a reasonable price for Dixons, but I'd still go to Richer Sounds any day, they are certain to have something at least as good value, probably considerably better if you don't mind last years model. Gaz. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Interesting article...
So fear not Mini Disc lovers...the medium is safe...although you may soon have to shop with pro audio suppliers for equipment and blank media. Don C. Which has its benefits. My latest "low end" ($700) DAT deck allows the SCMS to be switched off, since DAT is now apparently considered to be a professional format. When I got my previous DAT deck (around 1993), DAT decks under $1200 were considered "consumer" decks, with unswitchable SCMS. Tho I fear if MD became a pro format, we be paying pro prices. -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- You have just read e-mail by Ken Clinger. [EMAIL PROTECTED] You may now resume your previously scheduled life. -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- -*- - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Grundig deck?
From: "PrinceGaz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is described on Dixons' web site as the "Grundig MD-60 Minidisc Record Deck", and looking at the pic of it (using the zoom option) the three rotary dials to the left of the disc input/display are (from left) phone level, record level, jog dial. Hmmm. Must be a recorder then...although the link I followed had it listed as a player. Forgive my assumption that it was just that. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Francisco J. Huerta" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don, you really have to understand that most of the people have their own opinions. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm full of it. Francisco...what I'm REALLY trying to understand is exactly where I said you were "full of it". I objected to the following statement as bullshit... "Personally, I think MP3 players are a big hit with... ahem... how to put this politely... people who don't like paying for their music (aka Napster users). And that's it." ...and I still do. I use an MP3 player primarily because I can load one disc for a six hour plane flight and never once listen to the same song twice. So I object to your the rather blanket "and that's it" nature of your statement. I think that the MP3 format makes a LOT of sense for the portable audio user. Naturally, when I'm at home, I'd prefer to listen to the actual CD as opposed to ANY compressed format, MD included. Of course, the fact that I can download music from the internet and listen to it IS a plus imo...but I digress. :-) Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: Best Earbuds?
=== The original message was multipart MIME=== === All non-text parts (attachments) have been removed === I need a pair of good earbuds. What are the best earbuds for around $30 = or under? I have smallish ears, and I don't want ones that will fall = out when I turn my head (like my sennheiser mx4's (not 400s, that may be = a choice for me)). So, to recap, under $30 and not too large. Any = ideas? =20 Dan === MIME part removed : text/html; === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Don Capps [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Francisco...what I'm REALLY trying to understand is exactly where I said you were "full of it". I objected to the following statement as bullshit... "Personally, I think MP3 players are a big hit with... ahem... how to put this politely... people who don't like paying for their music (aka Napster users). And that's it." ...and I still do. Unfortunately, the statement says "Personally, I think...". It's not far fetched to take it to mean that you feel he's full of it when you tell him his statement is BS. -- Mike Burger CompuCom Information Services http://www.compucomis.net (215) 946-5573 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best Earbuds?
Dan Scellen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I need a pair of good earbuds. What are the best earbuds for around $30 = or under? I have smallish ears, and I don't want ones that will fall = out when I turn my head (like my sennheiser mx4's (not 400s, that may be = a choice for me)). So, to recap, under $30 and not too large. Any = ideas? =20 Dan I'm currently sitting here with Koss' "The Plug" in my ears. I wish the bass response was a little better (the Aiwa buds I had went lower), but their in-the-ear style helps, as it helps cut down on outside noise. I running them at about 2/3 the volume level at which I was running my Aiwas. -- Mike Burger CompuCom Information Services http://www.compucomis.net (215) 946-5573 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:31:55 -0500 (EST), JT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You tell me. I can get a decent MD recorder for much $40-50USD less, and not have to pay as much for the media. What's a CF card cost these days for a card with enough capacity to hold an hour or so worth of music? A minidisc is about $1.20 to $1.50 per disc. I think you misunderstood what he was referring to. The Philips Expanium is a CD player that can read MP3s off CDRs. So, the media costs about $0.50 max for anywhere from 4 to 10 hours (depending on bitrate) of music. You have to buy a computer, a CD burner, the Expanium, and some discs just to start using it. Easily over $1000 for an entry-level machine, closer to $2000 for a good system. At that point, 50 cents for 4-10 hours of music (of inferior sound quality) is orders of magnitude more expensive than MD. And you can't edit after you create, you can't record from a Mic, and you can't take it with you. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best Earbuds?
From: "Dan Scellen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need a pair of good earbuds. What are the best earbuds for around $30 or under? I personally think that Koss' 'The Plug' is the best for the money. There are better...Etymotic Research for example...but they are much more expensive. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Dan Frakes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You have to buy a computer, a CD burner, the Expanium, and some discs just to start using it. Easily over $1000 for an entry-level machine, closer to $2000 for a good system. Well Dan. You got me. I know when I've been licked. Darn. You do have to have a computer. You do have to have a CD burner and some CD-R or CD-RW media. Seriously now. Do you have a computer? OK. Then you're almost there. Do you have a CD burner? They're getting pretty cheap of late ya know. At that point, 50 cents for 4-10 hours of music (of inferior sound quality)... Here's where we part company. You would never now the difference between my Expanium playing MP3 files and my Expanium playing the original CD. I guarantee it. Inferior sound quality? Nope. Not at all. But then, don't believe me. Just burn a CD full of MP3s and borrow an Expanium...maybe a Circuit City store demo model...and listen for yourself. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Mike Burger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unfortunately, the statement says "Personally, I think...". It's not far fetched to take it to mean that you feel he's full of it when you tell him his statement is BS. Geez guys. Do you just WANT to fight or what? I object to the statement. Period. That is all. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Not looking for a fight...just pointing out to you the hows of his response. G On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Don Capps wrote: From: "Mike Burger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unfortunately, the statement says "Personally, I think...". It's not far fetched to take it to mean that you feel he's full of it when you tell him his statement is BS. Geez guys. Do you just WANT to fight or what? I object to the statement. Period. That is all. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
I dont know what encoder your using, but personally i can still hear a difference between 192 and an original CD, espeically with horns and extremely tight low's. yes i've tried many different encoders and i havn't found one that doesn't do this. also i run both through a pretty good system to test this theory. pioneer elite cd player, Rotel Amp's, BW nautilus speakers, Marantz Preamp, Maudio DIO 2496 sound card. if you dont like that equipment your too big of an audio snob and you shouldn't be even thinking of MD or MP3 :P - Original Message - From: "Don Capps" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:55 PM Subject: Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ?? From: "las" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I disagree about the quality of MP3s and seriously doubt that you can tell the difference between an MP3 recorded at the "standard" 128 and 192Kbps. All you are doing is using up more disc space. You can disagree all you like Larry. But in AB comparison where A is the original cd and B is a 192kbps mp3 file, the file is sonically indistinguishable from the original cd. That was my point. And yes, that is on a high quality playback system. My Turtle Beach soundcard has RCA stereo outputs being fed to a Denon integrated amp driving Mission speakers and an old MK sub which I retired a few years back from my main home theater system. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Seriously now. Do you have a computer? OK. Then you're almost there. Do you have a CD burner? They're getting pretty cheap of late ya know. Cute answer, but it all depends who you're talking about and what products you're comparing MP3s/Expanium to, doesn't it? If you're talking about people on e-mail mailinglists, then yes most of them will have computers, so that expense isn't a big deal (don't assume too much - this PC belongs to my employer, and many MD-Lers will be in the same position). If you're talking about the general audio market (remember we are talking about audio products), the expense of a computer does need to be factored in. Most importantly, in comparing MD with MP3s the Expanium, as audio products, you *do* have to consider that an MD unit will operate with other audio as a standalone unit, but these other units need a PC. So in direct comparison the cost of a PC needs to be factored in. So IMO Dan Frakes' point stands. I'm not saying the Expanium isn't a great product that doesn't suit you immensely - I'm sure it is and does. But I suspect there is a reason that things like MP3 players aren't that mainstream yet - MD has one strong thing going for it and that is that people can hook it up to their CD players and burn copies or plug earphones into the things and hear music. Nice and simple. Richard Lang Solicitor Duncan Cotterill Christchurch, New Zealand email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (++64)-3-379-2430 fax: (++64)-3-379-7097 http://www.duncancotterill.com ___PLEASE NOTE: ___ This communication contains information that is confidential and which may be subject to legal privilege or subject to copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy the contents of this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail, facsimile or collect telephone call to +64 3 379 2430 and destroy the original. We virus scan all e-mails and electronic media but are not responsible for any virus or alternation. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === sarcasm yeah i wouldn't know the difference, but then again i lost my hearing douring the war too /sarcasm - Original Message - From: "Don Capps" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ?? From: "Dan Frakes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You have to buy a computer, a CD burner, the Expanium, and some discs just to start using it. Easily over $1000 for an entry-level machine, closer to $2000 for a good system. Well Dan. You got me. I know when I've been licked. Darn. You do have to have a computer. You do have to have a CD burner and some CD-R or CD-RW media. Seriously now. Do you have a computer? OK. Then you're almost there. Do you have a CD burner? They're getting pretty cheap of late ya know. At that point, 50 cents for 4-10 hours of music (of inferior sound quality)... Here's where we part company. You would never now the difference between my Expanium playing MP3 files and my Expanium playing the original CD. I guarantee it. Inferior sound quality? Nope. Not at all. But then, don't believe me. Just burn a CD full of MP3s and borrow an Expanium...maybe a Circuit City store demo model...and listen for yourself. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Mike Burger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not looking for a fight...just pointing out to you the hows of his response. G Nah. Seems to me that every time I disagree with Francisco you have to chest up. Are you two best buds or something? G Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Matt Wall" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I dont know what encoder your using, but personally i can still hear a difference between 192 and an original CD, espeically with horns and extremely tight low's. Then I bow deeply to your obviously superior ears. I cannot hear that difference and I listen on some pretty serious gear. Indeed, the only difference which I think I might hear is in the area of low bass impact. But then, that could be just my imagination. if you dont like that equipment your too big of an audio snob and you shouldn't be even thinking of MD or MP3 :P Not really sure where you're coming from with these comments. I merely included an equipment list with my original post because I wanted to head off any speculation about the equipment used and it's relative effect on perceived audio quality. I was trying to clarify that I was listening through a decent system and not through the typical cheesy computer speakers. Sorry if it seemed "snobbish" to you. :p Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Matt Wall" [EMAIL PROTECTED] sarcasm yeah i wouldn't know the difference, but then again i lost my hearing douring the war too I'm sincerely sorry to hear that. I understand they're making great strides with high fidelity hearing aids these days. Perhaps this link will be of assistance : http://www.digital-recordings.com/publ/pubaids.html All the best! Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
blink To tell the truth, I never noticed any correlation between his posting and my defense. I tend to jump to the defense of anyone I feel has at least made a valid point, and I feel has dismissed out of hand. shrug To tell the truth, I didn't even notice any correlation between you being the one with the disagreement and my defense, either. I guess I need to watch my threads a little more carefully. G On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Don Capps wrote: From: "Mike Burger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not looking for a fight...just pointing out to you the hows of his response. G Nah. Seems to me that every time I disagree with Francisco you have to chest up. Are you two best buds or something? G Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Richard Lang" [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you're talking about the general audio market (remember we are talking about audio products), the expense of a computer does need to be factored in. Indeed. Point well made and well taken. But I would contend that MD has not exactly met with mainstream acceptance either and that it is not going to do so in the future. Both items are at present a small niche market in the larger audio equipment marketplace compared to the sales of CD players, DVD players, and even consumer CD recorders. However, there nevertheless remains a viable market for both products and I believe that sales stats over the next few quarters will show that MP3 devices have been very hot sellers with the major electronics retailers. For example, DVD players which also decode MP3 files have been flying off the Circuit City shelves here locally, and I don't exactly live in the center of the audio/video universe. I'm not saying the Expanium isn't a great product that doesn't suit you immensely - I'm sure it is and does. But I suspect there is a reason that things like MP3 players aren't that mainstream yet - MD has one strong thing going for it and that is that people can hook it up to their CD players and burn copies or plug earphones into the things and hear music. Nice and simple. Richard, far be it from me to downplay the many merits of MD. I love it. I use it. Frequently. I just take exception to the apparent attitude that MP3 is somehow an inferior compression format...especially at high bitrates. That is simply and patently untrue. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Dan Frakes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] And you can't edit after you create, you can't record from a mic All true. And all categories in which MD carries the day, hands down. and you can't take it with you... Not true. I carry it with me all the time. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
"Don Capps" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can disagree all you like Larry. But in AB comparison where A is the original cd and B is a 192kbps mp3 file, the file is sonically indistinguishable from the original cd. Don, you forgot to add the phrase "to my ears" at the end of that statement. The truth is that it IS distinguishable. Just because you personally can't hear it doesn't mean no one else can. I can hear the difference, double-blind, between a 128kbps and 192 kbps. And for Larry, here's the methodology LOL: using the same CD and the same ripper, rip a single song at both bitrates. All other settings identical. Save them to the same hard drive. Add them both to a playlist, set to "random" shuffle and repeat. Close my eyes. Listen and hit "forward" to skip between the two files, in random order. Have a friend tell me if my guesses are correct. Using this procedure, I can tell the difference easily. On the other hand, I cannot consistently walk up to the machine without having heard both before and identify whether a single track without a point of comparison is 192 or 160. I can do it with CD vs MP3, though. The point here is that there is an audible difference. However, whether that difference is obvious in a portable environment is questionable. My computer audio system: PowerMac G4, Yamaha @PET digital receiver, NHT SuperZero speakers, Grado SR-60 headphones. and You would never now the difference between my Expanium playing MP3 files and my Expanium playing the original CD. I guarantee it. Inferior sound quality? Nope. Not at all. Sorry, Don, but you're wrong on that one. Again, just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean others can't. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: Copyright and Napster
Since it was brought up by me recently that Napster lost, it is now official: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010212/ts/napster_lawsuit_11.html Monday February 12 3:17 PM ET Court Says Napster Must Stop By RON HARRIS, Associated Press Writer SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Napster (news - web sites) Inc. must stop allowing the millions of music fans who use its free Internet-based service to share copyrighted material, a federal appeals court ruled Monday. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: great deal at crutchfield on minisystem
=== The original message was multipart MIME=== === All non-text parts (attachments) have been removed === Crutchfield is closing out their stock on the MD555 5 cd and 5 minidisc minisystem. It's on sale for 299 and you get a free pc to minidisc link cable! I bought one myself and love it. If you use my customer id number you get 25 dollars off the unit and i get 25 bucks credit towards one for my friend. :) Kathy King zip code 29662 nad my customer id number is 20686263 http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-zOAWYVqjwTr/ProdView.asp?s=0c=4g=10100; I=156DHCMD55o=a=0 there is a link to the page. It's a good deal! Kathy === MIME part removed : text/html; === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Dan Frakes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry, Don, but you're wrong on that one. Again, just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean others can't. Again...I bow to the golden ears. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Copyright and Napster
From: "Stainless Steel Rat" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Monday February 12 3:17 PM ET Court Says Napster Must Stop Good. Now maybe people will quit bitching about Napster (both sides). Besides, the file sharing genie is well and truly out of the bottle since the source code is widely distributed and the Gnutella source code was always open source. It can't be stopped. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
...I would contend that MD has not exactly met with mainstream acceptance either and that it is not going to do so in the future. Both items are at present a small niche market in the larger audio equipment marketplace compared to the sales of CD players, DVD players, and even consumer CD recorders. Maybe this is so in the U.S. Here in NZ I would say MD acceptance is similar to the reported position in the UK - two years ago no-one had heard of it, now more and more people have portables, many people (maybe still not most) have heard of the concept. Portables are still expensive but now the prices are achievable, while blanks have dropped dramatically in price (they were commonly NZ$12-16 in 1998, now NZ$5-7 (approx US$2-3) - more than a 50% drop at retail, which is helping acceptance. Still, MD acceptance here is nothing like DVD acceptance, and MD is still only found in dedicated HiFi shops, there's not much in the chain electronics or home appliance stores, so yes it is a niche. OTOH, MP3 players are very rare - I know a lot of people who burn CDs and who hold a lot of MP3s on their PCs but most people just aren't that in love with their PCs and it can be tricky finding portable hardware to listen to the MP3s. I agree that as time goes on, PCs integrated with other entertainment technology will take over and MD won't survive. I'd give it another 10 years though. Richard Lang Solicitor Duncan Cotterill Christchurch, New Zealand email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (++64)-3-379-2430 fax: (++64)-3-379-7097 http://www.duncancotterill.com ___PLEASE NOTE: ___ This communication contains information that is confidential and which may be subject to legal privilege or subject to copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy the contents of this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail, facsimile or collect telephone call to +64 3 379 2430 and destroy the original. We virus scan all e-mails and electronic media but are not responsible for any virus or alternation. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Mike Burger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] blink To tell the truth, I never noticed any correlation between his posting and my defense. I tend to jump to the defense of anyone I feel has at least made a valid point, and I feel has dismissed out of hand. sigh I didn't dismiss him out of hand. I disagreed with his statement. That's all. I guess I need to watch my threads a little more carefully. G Not on my account...I'm just one of the nobodies around here. G Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
From: "Richard Lang" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe this is so in the U.S. Here in NZ I would say MD acceptance is similar to the reported position in the UK - two years ago no-one had heard of it, now more and more people have portables, many people (maybe still not most) have heard of the concept. I've noticed that Richard. Based upon what I've read in various UK audio and pro sound/recording publications it seems that MD is far more established in the UK than it ever has been in the US. Interesting. Seems to be used quite often for two track mastering in home studios over there...at least based upon what I've read in Sound-On-Sound and other mags. Over here I would say the home studio mastering device of choice is the DAT recorder, closely followed by the CD recorder. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: md-l-digest
I was at Fry's Electronics here in San Diego (a large chain store) two days ago and saw the new Sony dual tray CD recorder, price $499.00. Looks like Sony is going to start selling CD recorders now. Glenn - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: md-l-digest
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was at Fry's Electronics here in San Diego (a large chain store) two days ago and saw the new Sony dual tray CD recorder, price $499.00. Looks like Sony is going to start selling CD recorders now. Glenn Yep. Just saw the same unit on Saturday at Best Buy. Don C. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: 10(!) brand new r50's for auction on ebay for $140US each
hi all i tried sending this over a day ago before but i got undeliverable to amulation message so i'm not sure if it got thru...and now this auction ends in only 1hour... i'll start out by saying i have no affiliation with the seller so bid at your own risk. i won an auction for one of these new r50's a few days ago for $150 in a dutch auction with 3 r50's and i was the only bidder. it seems this seller has got heaps of these as they have been selling them in lots of 2 or 3 since december(which were going for $180US or so, so if you wait longer the price may come down further...) this auction ends in 1 hour at Feb-12-01 17:28:08 PST US time. they are from Boston and they ship worldwide. (SONY MZ-R50 Portable MiniDisc Digital Recordr) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=1213317600 ct _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: cheap sale prices in Sydney for MD decks
hi all i tried sending this before but i got undeliverable to amulation message so i'm not sure if it got thru... for those of you in sydney and perhaps the rest of australia, i went to the sony-central store at chatswood,sydney on sunday and they have some unbelievable sale prices on md decks. especially the new JB940. i dont know when the sale is ending... [all prices are in Australian dollars. $1AU = $0.55US] long play models JE440 $299 (rrp $449) JB940 $599!!! (rrp $999?) (silver) [the JE640 was there but not on sale for $699] multi cd - mdlp MXD-D4 $599 (rrp $999?) [4cd] MXD-D5 $799 (rrp $1299?) [5cd] they also have older non-lp high end decks on special JA30ES $1199 (was $1550) JA50ES $1599! (was $2799) sony central has stores in most of the capital cities but i dont know if they have these sale prices. i dont know if sony-central sydney takes phone orders for people not in sydney but their number is (02) 9904 8500 [http://www.sonycentral.com.au - the only useful info this web site has is contact info and a map of where to find each store] ct _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: FM 15khz pilot tone
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:54:27 -0600, John Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How to get it out? I mean, how to filter it out when recording initially? -jts Arlington, TX - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
...I would contend that MD has not exactly met with mainstream acceptance either and that it is not going to do so in the future. Both items are at present a small niche market in the larger audio equipment marketplace compared to the sales of CD players, DVD players, and even consumer CD recorders. Maybe this is so in the U.S. Here in NZ I would say MD acceptance is similar to the reported position in the UK - two years ago no-one had heard of it, now more and more people have portables, many people (maybe still not most) have heard of the concept. I'll add my bit to this thread too. In the UK, I do not know a single person who owns a consumer CD recorder. However almost every technically-literate friend and colleague has a PC CD Writer and / or a consumer DVD player Also, I know just ONE person who owns an MP3 player. ONE. That includes all of the people who work at my place of work (a VERY technical place, full of like-minded gadget-fiend engineers). A dozen or so people I know and work with own MD equipment, be it in-car units, portable personal units or consumer MD decks. (I will add that I know people with PDAs (PalmV and Compaq iPaq seem popular) and that these are able to play MP3 files - however I am not including these in my total of MP3-player-owners, in the same way that I am not including every person I ever knew who owned a PC as an MP3-player owner) Richer Sounds, Comet, Currys, Dixons, Index and Argos are all stocking healthy amounts of MD gear. And these are all common-or-garden high street chain stores. Blank MDs can be had for 99p (~70 cents I guess?) and that's without even looking very hard. HMV and Virgin Megastores sell both blank MDs and prerecorded discs. So I guess the UK MD 'scene' is dramatically different to the current US situation and perhaps in some ways THE strongest MD market? What are other countries like (europe? japan?) Dave - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
Don Capps wrote: You can disagree all you like Larry. But in AB comparison where A is the original cd and B is a 192kbps mp3 file, the file is sonically indistinguishable from the original cd. That was my point. And yes, that is on a high quality playback system. My Turtle Beach soundcard has RCA stereo outputs being fed to a Denon integrated amp driving Mission speakers and an old MK sub which I retired a few years back from my main home theater system. Don, if you are talking about a Turtle Beach Sound Card with analog outputs, the chain is so weak at that point, there A/B testing is worth very little. The original Turtle Beach sound card was fine 10 years ago. But they no longer make a card that can be considered HI Fi by today's standards. They have made some real crap since then. You need to copy the MP3 files onto a CDR and then play them through a CD player that can play both MP3 and standard CDs. That would be the only valid way to A/B test (plus you would have to adjust the sound levels for each CD so that they would be equal. Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Best buy, phasing out MD equip ??
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Dan Frakes wrote: [...] Easily over $1000 for an entry-level machine, closer to $2000 for a good system. Not to be nit-picky, but where'd you get these prices? Those are about twice what you should be paying. But I agree, it's still far more expensive. Josh - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: cheap sale prices in Sydney for MD decks
On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Crak Therapy wrote: long play models JE440 $299 (rrp $449) JB940 $599!!! (rrp $999?) (silver) For you folks in the US you can get these two units from video-direct.com for $160 and $320 respectively (not including shipping) I just got my JB940 today, haven't had a chance to hook it up yet :/ Josh - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: cheap sale prices in Sydney for MD decks
Oh.. I just got my 940 a week ago too. Great machine, and replaced my 520. Besides the comparatively dull-looking appearance of the 940, it's still very good in terms of functionality. Too bad the 640 is not available in US. Ken -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of JT Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 11:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: cheap sale prices in Sydney for MD decks On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Crak Therapy wrote: long play models JE440 $299 (rrp $449) JB940 $599!!! (rrp $999?) (silver) For you folks in the US you can get these two units from video-direct.com for $160 and $320 respectively (not including shipping) I just got my JB940 today, haven't had a chance to hook it up yet :/ Josh - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: FM 15khz pilot tone
15kHz notch filter ... best done by either having an in-line filter while recording (if done in analogue), or using a PC based filter (like the one in Cooledit Pro) after having copied the entire sound source to a WAV file on your PC. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John Small Sent: Tuesday, 13 February 2001 11:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:MD: FM 15khz pilot tone Recording on a JB940. I thought I'd read about filtering out the pilot tone from the FM carrier, but in re-reading the manual I find nothing. It's definately there in a program I recorded today. How to get it out? Thanks. -jts Arlington, TX - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
