Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[ernest breakfield]

have seen a couple of versions of this in the last few days,... hard to 
know how much truth there is in any of these, but it does raise some 
interesting thoughts.



cheers!
e


On 10/Jul/13 08:28, Rich Thomas wrote:
An old friend sent this around, it might be internet BS but he does 
know a lot of people who know a lot of people with 
military/intel/aviation backgrounds, so I tend to think it is probably 
closer to true than not.  But YMMV.


--R

   For how many years did we hear some of this in CRM?  From a friend
   of an old Pan Am friend. I heard a lot of the same stuff from a
   personal friend who just left one of the Japanese carriers and
   another who works for Singapore. For what it's worth..

   *Subject: Fw: [retup] Low-down on Korean pilots*


   - hi
   enjoy your flight on Asiana..

   After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the --400, I
   got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing
   subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and
   surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of
   the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression
   from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One
   big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given
   super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster.
   Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of
   the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way,
   after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and
   found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of
   the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years
   and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant,
   it's a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us
   expats.

   One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a
   web-site and reported on every training session. I don't think
   this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or
   two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and
   everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions,
   what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example;
   I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to
   initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the
   briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were
   coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master
   Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first
   few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff.
   Then, all of a sudden they all "got it" and continued the
   takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten
   out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

   We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of
   fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a
   decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were
   basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and
   the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or
   face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired
   Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one
   center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we
   had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at
   Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia,
   or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia.
   Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so
   they did hire some instructors from there.

   This solution has only been partially successful but still faces
   ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the
   number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were
   fired because they tried to enforce "normal" standards of
   performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to
   master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach
   with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK.  I am not kidding
   when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach
   struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason.  Like this
   Asiana crew, it didnt' compute that you needed to be a 1000' AGL
   at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But,
   after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my
   name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn't pass
   someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually
   busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me
   built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it
   turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief
   Line Check pilot on 

Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

An old friend sent this around, it might be internet BS but he does know 
a lot of people who know a lot of people with military/intel/aviation 
backgrounds, so I tend to think it is probably closer to true than not.  
But YMMV.


--R

   For how many years did we hear some of this in CRM?  From a friend
   of an old Pan Am friend. I heard a lot of the same stuff from a
   personal friend who just left one of the Japanese carriers and
   another who works for Singapore. For what it's worth..

   *Subject: Fw: [retup] Low-down on Korean pilots*


   - hi
   enjoy your flight on Asiana..

   After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the --400, I
   got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing
   subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and
   surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of
   the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression
   from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One
   big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given
   super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster.
   Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of
   the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way,
   after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and
   found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of
   the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years
   and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant,
   it's a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us
   expats.

   One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a
   web-site and reported on every training session. I don't think
   this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or
   two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and
   everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions,
   what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example;
   I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to
   initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the
   briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were
   coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master
   Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first
   few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff.
   Then, all of a sudden they all "got it" and continued the
   takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten
   out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

   We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of
   fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a
   decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were
   basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and
   the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or
   face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired
   Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one
   center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we
   had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at
   Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia,
   or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia.
   Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so
   they did hire some instructors from there.

   This solution has only been partially successful but still faces
   ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the
   number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were
   fired because they tried to enforce "normal" standards of
   performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to
   master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach
   with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK.  I am not kidding
   when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach
   struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason.  Like this
   Asiana crew, it didnt' compute that you needed to be a 1000' AGL
   at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But,
   after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my
   name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn't pass
   someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually
   busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me
   built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it
   turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief
   Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on
   my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my
   Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a
   fly while talking about how u

Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

'Zackly.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


Read that thing I posted about the flight instructor's experience in 
Korea, and the more general statement that thousands of hours of 
"flight" time might be a small fraction of actual "flying" time. Not 
that sitting with your hand on the stick for 12 hours across the ocean 
would be a great bit of "flying" experience, but once you start the 
descent and approach having your hands on the throttle and stick is 
"flying," not turning knobs on the autopilot from 300ft at takeoff until 
it actually hits ground again (one hopes, on a runway pointed in the 
right direction, wheels down, greasy side down, etc.).  You get a feel 
for where the airplane is, what the engines are doing, what your 
throttle position is, etc.  (that is of course you should also be 
monitoring your instruments that will tell you where you are and what 
state the airplane is in).


I really wonder how much actual "flying" time these guys had, either in 
that airplane or in any airplane.


--R


On 7/12/13 3:59 PM, WILTON wrote:
I think they mostly sat and dozed across the pacific - the far greater 
part of it on auto-everything - autopilot, autonav, autocruise, 
altitude hold, autothrottle, etc.  I doubt very seriously that they 
did much real flying of the aircraft on the entire trip.


Wilton




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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

Read that thing I posted about the flight instructor's experience in 
Korea, and the more general statement that thousands of hours of 
"flight" time might be a small fraction of actual "flying" time. Not 
that sitting with your hand on the stick for 12 hours across the ocean 
would be a great bit of "flying" experience, but once you start the 
descent and approach having your hands on the throttle and stick is 
"flying," not turning knobs on the autopilot from 300ft at takeoff until 
it actually hits ground again (one hopes, on a runway pointed in the 
right direction, wheels down, greasy side down, etc.).  You get a feel 
for where the airplane is, what the engines are doing, what your 
throttle position is, etc.  (that is of course you should also be 
monitoring your instruments that will tell you where you are and what 
state the airplane is in).


I really wonder how much actual "flying" time these guys had, either in 
that airplane or in any airplane.


--R


On 7/12/13 3:59 PM, WILTON wrote:
I think they mostly sat and dozed across the pacific - the far greater 
part of it on auto-everything - autopilot, autonav, autocruise, 
altitude hold, autothrottle, etc.  I doubt very seriously that they 
did much real flying of the aircraft on the entire trip.


Wilton




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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

I think they mostly sat and dozed across the pacific - the far greater part 
of it on auto-everything - autopilot, autonav, autocruise, altitude hold, 
autothrottle, etc.  I doubt very seriously that they did much real flying of 
the aircraft on the entire trip.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Bennell" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Boy you guys are critcal.

They flew this great big plane all the way accross the bloody Pacific and 
got to the correct airport and runway.

They only missed by what, 25 feet or so?

If they had managed to clear the landing gear they likely could have set 
it down.


Think how much worse things would have been if they had been 25 feet lower 
and had slammed into the seawall headfirst???



Randy who hopes the pilots are on the ball the next time he flies


On 11/07/2013 6:42 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:

Asians can't drive so why think they can fly?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:38 PM, "WILTON"  wrote:

Speaking of not being able to do a visual approach; evidently, neither 
can three 10-khr Korean pilots.


Wilton

- Original Message - From: "Allan Streib" 

To: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 


Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide 
path?




Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> writes:


If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby
pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they
need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and
airspeed) whether on manual or auto.
Eliminating the people might in theory eliminate the pilot error 
(though

the automation is all created and programmed by people too).

My view is that there is a catch 22 of sorts.  Could an automated
aircraft have landed US 1549 on the Hudson River when the engines were
disabled by birds?  No.  No way.  You would have had several hundred
fatalities in that situation if a robot was flying the airplane.  Only 
a

human, has the ability to react intelligently to a completely
unanticipated situation.  Unfortunately, though, not all pilots are
Chesley Sullenberger.  Most, by definition, are average.  So no
guarantee that any average human pilot could have saved that situation,
but certainly ONLY a human pilot had any chance to do so.

On the other hand, would a robot pilot have made the mistakes that the
OZ 214 pilots did?  No.  If there's one thing computers are good at 
(and

people are bad at) it's monitoring things without ever making
assumptions or getting distracted.  However computers can't do visual
approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
the ILS was out of service.

On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
humans can, and in general files more safely.

I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.

Allan

--
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Randy Bennell]

Boy you guys are critcal.

They flew this great big plane all the way accross the bloody Pacific 
and got to the correct airport and runway.

They only missed by what, 25 feet or so?

If they had managed to clear the landing gear they likely could have set 
it down.


Think how much worse things would have been if they had been 25 feet 
lower and had slammed into the seawall headfirst???



Randy who hopes the pilots are on the ball the next time he flies


On 11/07/2013 6:42 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:

Asians can't drive so why think they can fly?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:38 PM, "WILTON"  wrote:


Speaking of not being able to do a visual approach; evidently, neither can 
three 10-khr Korean pilots.

Wilton

- Original Message - From: "Allan Streib" 
To: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 

Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> writes:


If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby
pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they
need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and
airspeed) whether on manual or auto.

Eliminating the people might in theory eliminate the pilot error (though
the automation is all created and programmed by people too).

My view is that there is a catch 22 of sorts.  Could an automated
aircraft have landed US 1549 on the Hudson River when the engines were
disabled by birds?  No.  No way.  You would have had several hundred
fatalities in that situation if a robot was flying the airplane.  Only a
human, has the ability to react intelligently to a completely
unanticipated situation.  Unfortunately, though, not all pilots are
Chesley Sullenberger.  Most, by definition, are average.  So no
guarantee that any average human pilot could have saved that situation,
but certainly ONLY a human pilot had any chance to do so.

On the other hand, would a robot pilot have made the mistakes that the
OZ 214 pilots did?  No.  If there's one thing computers are good at (and
people are bad at) it's monitoring things without ever making
assumptions or getting distracted.  However computers can't do visual
approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
the ILS was out of service.

On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
humans can, and in general files more safely.

I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.

Allan

--
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

'Zackly why ya gotta stay on top of airspeed and altitude ALL the time, 
especially at such a critical time as descent, approach, etc.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Allan Streib" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Mitch Haley  writes:

You're saying that 7 seconds may be a long time in a F-16, but it isn't 
even
enough time to increase thrust in a 777? (I was going to say 172, then 
realized

that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as light aircraft in ROK)


I think I read that the FAA standard is 5 seconds to spool up from idle
but remember they were in landing configuration, flaps and landing gear
deployed (thus "draggy"), descending, and significantly slow, and with a
jet/turbofan the power comes on late, kind of like turbo lag in a car.
Then, even when the engines attain full thrust it's going to take some
time to get back to a speed where they can arrest their descent and
start gaining altitude.  In their situation, trying to recover the
profile or go around from 7 seconds out was probably impossible.

--
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[G Mann]

Exactly.

Landing a large aircraft is really a math exercise. Horizontal velocity vs
vertical velocity versus lift generated/thrust applied. Add cross wind
component and density altitude [how thick is the air to produce lift].

With the 777 approach speed of approx 175 mph and a sink rate of, let's say
4000 feet per minute [way to high for short final] calculate how many
seconds till impact at the approach angle.  Then calculate the engine spool
up time from low idle at 20% RPM to full power of 90% RPM... then the time
needed to use that full thrust to accelerate a 250,000 lb aircraft.
[conservative guess on weight].

Now calculate just how far behind the airplane the crew is ... the human
reaction factor.. etc..

If you wait until seconds count, there is never enough time.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> G Mann wrote:
>
>  At this time, it certainly appears the crew was far behind the aircraft
>> and
>> failed first to recognize it was out of control, then second, to take
>> corrective and effective action in a timely manner to regain control.. to
>> little, way to late.
>>
>
> You're saying that 7 seconds may be a long time in a F-16, but it isn't
> even enough time to increase thrust in a 777? (I was going to say 172, then
> realized that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as light aircraft in
> ROK)
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Mitch Haley  writes:

> You're saying that 7 seconds may be a long time in a F-16, but it isn't even 
> enough time to increase thrust in a 777? (I was going to say 172, then 
> realized 
> that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as light aircraft in ROK)

I think I read that the FAA standard is 5 seconds to spool up from idle
but remember they were in landing configuration, flaps and landing gear
deployed (thus "draggy"), descending, and significantly slow, and with a
jet/turbofan the power comes on late, kind of like turbo lag in a car.
Then, even when the engines attain full thrust it's going to take some
time to get back to a speed where they can arrest their descent and
start gaining altitude.  In their situation, trying to recover the
profile or go around from 7 seconds out was probably impossible.

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

G Mann wrote:


At this time, it certainly appears the crew was far behind the aircraft and
failed first to recognize it was out of control, then second, to take
corrective and effective action in a timely manner to regain control.. to
little, way to late.


You're saying that 7 seconds may be a long time in a F-16, but it isn't even 
enough time to increase thrust in a 777? (I was going to say 172, then realized 
that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as light aircraft in ROK)


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[G Mann]

Objection, Your Honor.

Thousands of hours in other types does not make you competent in a new
airframe.
Each Type require a different set of skills. That is why you are required
to possess a "type certificate" to fly each different large aircraft.

Certainly, if you have some flight experience, it is expected you
understand the basics of flight, however, large, heavy, and powerful
aircraft move at very different rates of climb, sink, and acceleration. It
is incredibly easy to "get behind the airplane" and be out of control. At
altitude, you have perhaps thousands of feet to "recover and correct".. on
short final approach, at a high decent rate, second equate to thousands of
feet you don't have.

At this time, it certainly appears the crew was far behind the aircraft and
failed first to recognize it was out of control, then second, to take
corrective and effective action in a timely manner to regain control.. to
little, way to late.

Flying a large airliner properly also requires crew coordination, Each
member of the cockpit has a duty to check and recheck both the aircraft and
the actions of the other crew then advise immediately if any item needs
attention.

Until a review of the cockpit tapes on the black box is done, we won't know
if that cross check by crew members was done. It would appear at this time,
it was not.

Grant...

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Andrew Strasfogel  writes:
>
> > BTW, what struck me about the "inexperienced" pilot was that he may never
> > have actually landed such an aircraft before in his 43 hours of ttraining
> > (or simulating).  If true, this would be astounding.
>
> Gotta be a first time, no?
>
> He had thousands of hours in other types.  He was not a newbie.
>
> Allan
>
> --
> Allan Streib
>
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

At 6:42 PM -0500 7/11/13, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:

Asians can't drive so why think they can fly?


Nonsense!  

Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[OK Don]

FWIW, ILS is becoming obsolete (not yet, but soon) due to WAAS GPS systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System

Overall, commercail aviation is remarkably safe and effective. However, if
I don't HAVE to be somewhere at a specifc time/date, I perfer to fly
myself, just as I perfer to drive myself rather than taking the bus. YMMV.


> >>
> >>  However computers can't do visual
> >> approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
> >> the ILS was out of service.
> >>
> >> On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
> >> Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
> >> humans can, and in general files more safely.
> >>
> >> I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
> >> very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
> >> the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
> >> decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.
> >>
> >> Allan
> >>
> >>
>



-- 
OK Don
2013 F150, 19 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Asians can't drive so why think they can fly?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:38 PM, "WILTON"  wrote:

> Speaking of not being able to do a visual approach; evidently, neither can 
> three 10-khr Korean pilots.
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Allan Streib" 
> To: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
> 
> 
>> Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby
>>> pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they
>>> need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and
>>> airspeed) whether on manual or auto.
>> 
>> Eliminating the people might in theory eliminate the pilot error (though
>> the automation is all created and programmed by people too).
>> 
>> My view is that there is a catch 22 of sorts.  Could an automated
>> aircraft have landed US 1549 on the Hudson River when the engines were
>> disabled by birds?  No.  No way.  You would have had several hundred
>> fatalities in that situation if a robot was flying the airplane.  Only a
>> human, has the ability to react intelligently to a completely
>> unanticipated situation.  Unfortunately, though, not all pilots are
>> Chesley Sullenberger.  Most, by definition, are average.  So no
>> guarantee that any average human pilot could have saved that situation,
>> but certainly ONLY a human pilot had any chance to do so.
>> 
>> On the other hand, would a robot pilot have made the mistakes that the
>> OZ 214 pilots did?  No.  If there's one thing computers are good at (and
>> people are bad at) it's monitoring things without ever making
>> assumptions or getting distracted.  However computers can't do visual
>> approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
>> the ILS was out of service.
>> 
>> On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
>> Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
>> humans can, and in general files more safely.
>> 
>> I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
>> very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
>> the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
>> decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.
>> 
>> Allan
>> 
>> -- 
>> Allan Streib
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Speaking of not being able to do a visual approach; evidently, neither can 
three 10-khr Korean pilots.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Allan Streib" 
To: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 


Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> writes:


If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby
pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they
need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and
airspeed) whether on manual or auto.


Eliminating the people might in theory eliminate the pilot error (though
the automation is all created and programmed by people too).

My view is that there is a catch 22 of sorts.  Could an automated
aircraft have landed US 1549 on the Hudson River when the engines were
disabled by birds?  No.  No way.  You would have had several hundred
fatalities in that situation if a robot was flying the airplane.  Only a
human, has the ability to react intelligently to a completely
unanticipated situation.  Unfortunately, though, not all pilots are
Chesley Sullenberger.  Most, by definition, are average.  So no
guarantee that any average human pilot could have saved that situation,
but certainly ONLY a human pilot had any chance to do so.

On the other hand, would a robot pilot have made the mistakes that the
OZ 214 pilots did?  No.  If there's one thing computers are good at (and
people are bad at) it's monitoring things without ever making
assumptions or getting distracted.  However computers can't do visual
approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
the ILS was out of service.

On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
humans can, and in general files more safely.

I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.

Allan

--
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> writes:

> If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby
> pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they
> need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and
> airspeed) whether on manual or auto.

Eliminating the people might in theory eliminate the pilot error (though
the automation is all created and programmed by people too).

My view is that there is a catch 22 of sorts.  Could an automated
aircraft have landed US 1549 on the Hudson River when the engines were
disabled by birds?  No.  No way.  You would have had several hundred
fatalities in that situation if a robot was flying the airplane.  Only a
human, has the ability to react intelligently to a completely
unanticipated situation.  Unfortunately, though, not all pilots are
Chesley Sullenberger.  Most, by definition, are average.  So no
guarantee that any average human pilot could have saved that situation,
but certainly ONLY a human pilot had any chance to do so.

On the other hand, would a robot pilot have made the mistakes that the
OZ 214 pilots did?  No.  If there's one thing computers are good at (and
people are bad at) it's monitoring things without ever making
assumptions or getting distracted.  However computers can't do visual
approaches yet, and that was the only option at SFO 28L that day since
the ILS was out of service.

On balance, automation has probably saved more lives than it's cost.
Automation relieves the pilot workload, flies more economically than
humans can, and in general files more safely.

I think the unfortunate reality is that commercial air transport, while
very (VERY) safe, is not perfectly safe.  Situations can arise, where
the automation cannot handle it and a human, being human, makes a bad
decision.  All we can do is try to learn from it.

Allan

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Andrew Strasfogel  writes:

> BTW, what struck me about the "inexperienced" pilot was that he may never
> have actually landed such an aircraft before in his 43 hours of ttraining
> (or simulating).  If true, this would be astounding.

Gotta be a first time, no?

He had thousands of hours in other types.  He was not a newbie.

Allan

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mountain Man]

Dieselhead wrote:

WILTON wrote:
>> Sounds like flying has become TOO boring - maybe
>> they really can just put a monkey in the seat...

> If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and thereby pilot
> error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the seat, they need to be
> monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, attitude and airspeed) whether
> on manual or auto.

This is one of the primary reasons I like a 3-pedal car.
I don't want just go-pedal and stop-pedal.
DIY such as those reading okiebenz and mercedeslist and benzworld
understand systems, (as is very apparent in the level of depth of any
topic in the dialog mix) and hence understand not just the
instructions about twist this to that mark and then... whatever.
Loren understands the principle of the system of diesel injection and
can manipulate without factory tools to make the engine run, along
with Peter, and Mitch, and others.
DIY is a fading glory.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dieselhead]

Automatic this, or auto that - there's NO excuse for not monitoring 
a system to ensure it's doing what you asked it to do.  To set it 
and forget it to have its own way good or bad is criminal in my 
opinion.  Three highly-experienced, well-paid men just sitting there 
doing nothing??!!! Couldn't somebody at least glance at airspeed 
indicator and altimeter occasionally during such a critical part of 
flight - slowing down and descending - and again, I mean DURING the 
operation, not after it's supposedly completed?  'Sounds like flying 
has become TOO boring - maybe they really can just put a monkey in 
the seat or leave the "monkeys" at home, anyway, if those paid to do 
it are just gonna sit there and play "monkey."


Wilton



Hear Hear!   (thumping my non-existent cane on the floor for effect!)

If it going to be all automated, then eliminate the people and 
thereby pilot error.  If these guys (or gals ) are sitting in the 
seat, they need to be monitoring the critical parameters (altitude, 
attitude and airspeed) whether on manual or auto.



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Automatic this, or auto that - there's NO excuse for not monitoring a system 
to ensure it's doing what you asked it to do.  To set it and forget it to 
have its own way good or bad is criminal in my opinion.  Three 
highly-experienced, well-paid men just sitting there doing nothing??!!! 
Couldn't somebody at least glance at airspeed indicator and altimeter 
occasionally during such a critical part of flight - slowing down and 
descending - and again, I mean DURING the operation, not after it's 
supposedly completed?  'Sounds like flying has become TOO boring - maybe 
they really can just put a monkey in the seat or leave the "monkeys" at 
home, anyway, if those paid to do it are just gonna sit there and play 
"monkey."


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


Ah, but I've done a bit of reading, and it's quite possible that the 
auto-throttle was not only disconnected by the flight mode required to 
get down to the proper glide path, but the auto-throttle WARNING is  also 
deactivated (look up "the FLCH trap" on 777s).  Result: no  autothrottle, 
no warning when more thrust was needed.  Only takes a  few seconds to get 
too low and too slow, and 10 seconds to get full  thrust and stop descent.


Today's press conference indicated the co-pilot did alert the pilot to 
descending past glide slope and low airspeed, but by that time it was  too 
late, hard to stop that particular aircraft from continuing to  descend.


The usual situation:   a combination of events which if in isolation 
would not be a problem all occurring together.


According to the web blog, SFO ATC is notorious for holding planes  well 
above the glide path and then suddenly asking for a "slam dunk"  approach 
which requires a steeper than normal descent to re-acquire  the glide 
slope, and the ALPA has been complaining vigorously for a  couple decades 
for them to quit doing that before they cause just this  type of accident, 
or a runway over-run.


Peter



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Curt Raymond]

Really? At one point I few SWA a lot and I kind of like them. My top 3 in 
decreasing order are:
#1. Virgin America - Can't be beat for ticketing, waiting area treatment,  nice 
staff, clean and well maintained planes and on time. TV is a plus but not as 
good as:

#2. Jet Blue - Slightly surly staff but a better TV selection than Virgin

#3. Southwest - Without a doubt the friendliest inflight staff, good on times 
and love it or hate it the cattle call gets the plane loaded faster than any 
other airline.

-Curt
40,000 miles last year without ever leaving the country or going to the pacific 
northwest...

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 18:22:18 -0700
From: Alex Chamberlain 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
    path?
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> Well theres your problem, Southwest doesn't have first class at all...
> Famously doesn't as a matter of fact.
>
>
Nor, famously, maintenance crews that can read the English repair
instructions for their planes.  I won't fly SWA, ever, mostly for that
reason but also for the "cattle call" boarding system.  Flying is
unpleasant enough without the latter.

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Fmiser]

> WILTON wrote:
> 
> Today's news conf:
> 
> Yep; nobody monitoring airspeed and altitude before it was to
> late. Descent rate and throttles evidently set to AUTO, then
> airspeed and altitude evidently ignored.

When descent rate and throttles (misnomer for turbines, but
whatever) were set to "auto", were they follow the non-existent
glide path stuff?

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> Well theres your problem, Southwest doesn't have first class at all...
> Famously doesn't as a matter of fact.
>
>
Nor, famously, maintenance crews that can read the English repair
instructions for their planes.  I won't fly SWA, ever, mostly for that
reason but also for the "cattle call" boarding system.  Flying is
unpleasant enough without the latter.

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?, or Departure Gate Asshats

[WILTON]

ATTABOY!

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?, 
or Departure Gate Asshats




Time: Good Friday morning

Location: NWA gate counter, Boston's Logan Airport

Weather: Clear, unlimited ceiling

Destination: MKE via DTW

Weather in DTW: Fog and low clouds


This is scenario - inbound equipment has been stuck on the ground at DTW 
trying to take off to reach BOS. Delays are reaching into the hours.  I, 
along with two other employees, are booked on the flight and myself and 
one of the others have been able to upgrade to first class.


People are getting ugly. They want to get home for the Easter weekend. 
Tempers are flaring - we have all seen this if you travel regularly.


Business type guy (and we are all dressed in business attire as well, 
suits and ties) walks up to the counter to ask the gate agent what the 
latest is. When she tells him he has a blowout, leaving her nearly in 
tears. He storms away. Now's my chance.


I walk up to her and apologize for the asshat who just reamed her out. I 
told her that most of us business travelers are pretty laid back people, 
and that idiots like this guy make the rest of us look bad, and we all 
really appreciate what she does and understand the situation is not her 
fault.


She thanks me graciously and I go back and sit down.

Len, one of my fellow workers who is a former New Yorker, ask, "Dan why 
did you do that? She gets crap like that all day from idiots like him! 
This is the East Coast!!"


"Yeah, well, Lenny, you just watch and see how things play out..."

So maybe an hour later the equipment gets in and they get it turned 
around. Mike, the other employee with us who didn't have a platinum FF 
card, is the one relegated to coach.


Right before they call boarding, I go up to the gate agent I spoke to 
previously.


"Hey, I know the flight is probably really full, but do you think there is 
any way you could get my co-worker upgraded so he could sit with us? He 
doesn't travel much, and it would be a big thrill for him to get to travel 
in first class."


"Let me see what I can do. I have to finish the manifest and then I'll 
look."


"Thank you. You really do a great job, you know."

So they call for boarding for first class. Lenny and I go up and wait. The 
gate agent comes out and asks me the last name of my co-worker. I point it 
out in the manifest and she call him up.


Score!

Here's the best part:

We get on the plane and get settled with our drinks. The first group of 
coach passengers come on, and here is Mr. Asshat, walking towards the back 
of the plane, complaining loudly the whole way to the back of the cabin. 
Serves you right, I'm thinking to myself...


Just before they close the doors, the gate agent comes in and leans over 
to whisper something to me...


"I gave your friend the mean guy's seat in first class. I told him he got 
bumped!"


I show my boys this behavior every time I can. If you empathize and show 
true appreciation to people for what they do, they will almost alway go 
out of their way to help or reward you. When my boys were little and I was 
a stay at home Dad, they used to tell their Mom how I knew "everyone" when 
we went shopping. What they meant was that I always made a point of using 
someone's name when I spoke to them and did my best to engage them when we 
spoke.


When people think you have sincere interest and appreciation, it often 
(not always) pays off.  We refer to it as "using your influencing skills."



Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

Treating people well always pays off.  One a trip a couple years ago with 
my mother, who requires a wheelchair in airports, we went through Atlanta 
twice in a few days, and believe it or not the gate agent remembered us 
and the fact we were going to a wedding, asked how it went, etc.  I 
suspect this is because I NEVER demand anything from gate agents, always 
ask, show up on time, travel with my mother instead of foisting her off 
on the airport staff, and always say thank you and please.  She also 
moved us to bulkhead seats without being asked, and while I'm sure Delta 
does that for people with limited mobility as a matter of course, it was 
nice of her to do so.


So far my worst experience has been grudging service (not when traveling 
with Mom) and even then I said thank you very much when I had to get a 
ticket changed due to a late flight.


Mind you, I've never been late for boarding on an originating flight, 
don't whine and complain, and in general treat people like I would prefer 
to be treated.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

The service wasn't as good, but it was nice to be able to sleep lying down!

D

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2013, at 11:28 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:53:57 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> 
>> I got to literally sleep in a bed with inflight entertainment and
>> plenty of food/drink all the way over.  It was a wonderful flight.  A
>> little cramped, but still better than the business class seats.
> 
> Sounds like it was even better than first class.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?, or Departure Gate Asshats

[Dan Penoff]

Time: Good Friday morning

Location: NWA gate counter, Boston's Logan Airport

Weather: Clear, unlimited ceiling

Destination: MKE via DTW

Weather in DTW: Fog and low clouds


This is scenario - inbound equipment has been stuck on the ground at DTW trying 
to take off to reach BOS. Delays are reaching into the hours.  I, along with 
two other employees, are booked on the flight and myself and one of the others 
have been able to upgrade to first class.

People are getting ugly. They want to get home for the Easter weekend. Tempers 
are flaring - we have all seen this if you travel regularly.

Business type guy (and we are all dressed in business attire as well, suits and 
ties) walks up to the counter to ask the gate agent what the latest is. When 
she tells him he has a blowout, leaving her nearly in tears. He storms away. 
Now's my chance.

I walk up to her and apologize for the asshat who just reamed her out. I told 
her that most of us business travelers are pretty laid back people, and that 
idiots like this guy make the rest of us look bad, and we all really appreciate 
what she does and understand the situation is not her fault.

She thanks me graciously and I go back and sit down.

Len, one of my fellow workers who is a former New Yorker, ask, "Dan why did you 
do that? She gets crap like that all day from idiots like him! This is the East 
Coast!!"

"Yeah, well, Lenny, you just watch and see how things play out..."

So maybe an hour later the equipment gets in and they get it turned around. 
Mike, the other employee with us who didn't have a platinum FF card, is the one 
relegated to coach.

Right before they call boarding, I go up to the gate agent I spoke to 
previously.

"Hey, I know the flight is probably really full, but do you think there is any 
way you could get my co-worker upgraded so he could sit with us? He doesn't 
travel much, and it would be a big thrill for him to get to travel in first 
class."

"Let me see what I can do. I have to finish the manifest and then I'll look."

"Thank you. You really do a great job, you know."

So they call for boarding for first class. Lenny and I go up and wait. The gate 
agent comes out and asks me the last name of my co-worker. I point it out in 
the manifest and she call him up.

Score!

Here's the best part:

We get on the plane and get settled with our drinks. The first group of coach 
passengers come on, and here is Mr. Asshat, walking towards the back of the 
plane, complaining loudly the whole way to the back of the cabin. Serves you 
right, I'm thinking to myself...

Just before they close the doors, the gate agent comes in and leans over to 
whisper something to me...

"I gave your friend the mean guy's seat in first class. I told him he got 
bumped!"

I show my boys this behavior every time I can. If you empathize and show true 
appreciation to people for what they do, they will almost alway go out of their 
way to help or reward you. When my boys were little and I was a stay at home 
Dad, they used to tell their Mom how I knew "everyone" when we went shopping. 
What they meant was that I always made a point of using someone's name when I 
spoke to them and did my best to engage them when we spoke.

When people think you have sincere interest and appreciation, it often (not 
always) pays off.  We refer to it as "using your influencing skills."


Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

> Treating people well always pays off.  One a trip a couple years ago with my 
> mother, who requires a wheelchair in airports, we went through Atlanta twice 
> in a few days, and believe it or not the gate agent remembered us and the 
> fact we were going to a wedding, asked how it went, etc.  I suspect this is 
> because I NEVER demand anything from gate agents, always ask, show up on 
> time, travel with my mother instead of foisting her off on the airport staff, 
> and always say thank you and please.  She also moved us to bulkhead seats 
> without being asked, and while I'm sure Delta does that for people with 
> limited mobility as a matter of course, it was nice of her to do so.
> 
> So far my worst experience has been grudging service (not when traveling with 
> Mom) and even then I said thank you very much when I had to get a ticket 
> changed due to a late flight.
> 
> Mind you, I've never been late for boarding on an originating flight, don't 
> whine and complain, and in general treat people like I would prefer to be 
> treated.
> 
> Peter
> 
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Curt Raymond]

Well theres your problem, Southwest doesn't have first class at all... Famously 
doesn't as a matter of fact.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 11:02:04 -0400
From: Mitch Haley 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
    path?
Message-ID: <51dc25ec.8080...@voyager.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rich Thomas wrote:
> BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.

OK, I was extrapolating one person's SWA experience and maybe it was specific 
to 
his personal situation. His daughter had him on her employee family plan so he 
had liberal standby privileges, or for a small fee he could book first class. 
He 
hated to wear his suit (he was a truck driver) but it was part of the dress 
code 
for employee travelers in first class. In fact, he'd rather not fly first 
class, 
but if his daughter was afraid the cheap seats would fill up with paying 
customers and bump him off the plane she'd book him in advance for first class 
which was never full.

Mitch.
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

They are the only people who can help you.  Most people do not 
understand that.


--R


On 7/9/13 6:15 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:

I suspect this is because I NEVER demand anything from gate agents



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Peter Frederick]

Ah, but I've done a bit of reading, and it's quite possible that the  
auto-throttle was not only disconnected by the flight mode required to  
get down to the proper glide path, but the auto-throttle WARNING is  
also deactivated (look up "the FLCH trap" on 777s).  Result: no  
autothrottle, no warning when more thrust was needed.  Only takes a  
few seconds to get too low and too slow, and 10 seconds to get full  
thrust and stop descent.


Today's press conference indicated the co-pilot did alert the pilot to  
descending past glide slope and low airspeed, but by that time it was  
too late, hard to stop that particular aircraft from continuing to  
descend.


The usual situation:   a combination of events which if in isolation  
would not be a problem all occurring together.


According to the web blog, SFO ATC is notorious for holding planes  
well above the glide path and then suddenly asking for a "slam dunk"  
approach which requires a steeper than normal descent to re-acquire  
the glide slope, and the ALPA has been complaining vigorously for a  
couple decades for them to quit doing that before they cause just this  
type of accident, or a runway over-run.


Peter



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[MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Today's news conf:

Yep; nobody monitoring airspeed and altitude before it was to late.
Descent rate and throttles evidently set to AUTO, then airspeed and altitude 
evidently ignored.


Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Peter Frederick]

Treating people well always pays off.  One a trip a couple years ago  
with my mother, who requires a wheelchair in airports, we went through  
Atlanta twice in a few days, and believe it or not the gate agent  
remembered us and the fact we were going to a wedding, asked how it  
went, etc.  I suspect this is because I NEVER demand anything from  
gate agents, always ask, show up on time, travel with my mother  
instead of foisting her off on the airport staff, and always say thank  
you and please.  She also moved us to bulkhead seats without being  
asked, and while I'm sure Delta does that for people with limited  
mobility as a matter of course, it was nice of her to do so.


So far my worst experience has been grudging service (not when  
traveling with Mom) and even then I said thank you very much when I  
had to get a ticket changed due to a late flight.


Mind you, I've never been late for boarding on an originating flight,  
don't whine and complain, and in general treat people like I would  
prefer to be treated.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Talk of flying dress reminds me:  During one of my trips to/from Greenland 
and in/out of Colorado Springs and Denver in '78, I was in check-in line at 
C. Springs or Denver (in Air Force class A uniform) when suddenly, there was 
a beyond-gorgeous, very well-endowed brunette in SHORT shorts, medium high 
heels and T shirt filled with unrestrained mammaries walking very 
confidently toward me.  I did not stare - never have - was merely in subtle 
sector scan.  Across front of T shirt was stenciled "JELL-O."  As she got 
very close and about to pass me, our eyes met for a second and we exchanged 
slight, mutually agreeable, shy-like smiles as I thought, but did not say, 
"Just my flavor, too."  Of course, I continued on my trip, uninterrupted, 
undeterred and without any deviation from my duties.  Wonder what James, 
James Bond, that is, would have done?


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


Flying or otherwise, you'll always get better service and attention if 
you're well dressed.


I was commuting to SFO from Tampa weekly or bi-weekly for over 6 months. I 
always flew the same route on United. I made it a point to learn the names 
of the cabin and gate crews, and even brought them goodies once in a 
while. I wasn't even a frequent flyer with them and I got moved up to 
domestic first class a number of times.


It's all how you treat people.

Dan

On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


Rich Thomas wrote:

BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.


OK, I was extrapolating one person's SWA experience and maybe it was 
specific to his personal situation. His daughter had him on her employee 
family plan so he had liberal standby privileges, or for a small fee he 
could book first class. He hated to wear his suit (he was a truck driver) 
but it was part of the dress code for employee travelers in first class. 
In fact, he'd rather not fly first class, but if his daughter was afraid 
the cheap seats would fill up with paying customers and bump him off the 
plane she'd book him in advance for first class which was never full.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

At 10:33 AM -0400 7/9/13, Rich Thomas wrote:
One hopes.  The wire bundles look sorta like what your car has, no 
idea what kind of connectors are used.


Mostly insulated and waterproof types.



But still, the idea of water dripping around inside an airplane's 
electrical guts gives one pause.


What he said.

However, a drip like that is more likely to wind up in the belly and 
drain out a vent.


-MMM-

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Touche,

BTW, what struck me about the "inexperienced" pilot was that he may never
have actually landed such an aircraft before in his 43 hours of ttraining
(or simulating).  If true, this would be astounding.


On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> Flying or otherwise, you'll always get better service and attention if
> you're well dressed.
>
> I was commuting to SFO from Tampa weekly or bi-weekly for over 6 months. I
> always flew the same route on United. I made it a point to learn the names
> of the cabin and gate crews, and even brought them goodies once in a while.
> I wasn't even a frequent flyer with them and I got moved up to domestic
> first class a number of times.
>
> It's all how you treat people.
>
> Dan
>
> On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>
> > Rich Thomas wrote:
> >> BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.
> >
> > OK, I was extrapolating one person's SWA experience and maybe it was
> specific to his personal situation. His daughter had him on her employee
> family plan so he had liberal standby privileges, or for a small fee he
> could book first class. He hated to wear his suit (he was a truck driver)
> but it was part of the dress code for employee travelers in first class. In
> fact, he'd rather not fly first class, but if his daughter was afraid the
> cheap seats would fill up with paying customers and bump him off the plane
> she'd book him in advance for first class which was never full.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

Flying or otherwise, you'll always get better service and attention if you're 
well dressed.

I was commuting to SFO from Tampa weekly or bi-weekly for over 6 months. I 
always flew the same route on United. I made it a point to learn the names of 
the cabin and gate crews, and even brought them goodies once in a while. I 
wasn't even a frequent flyer with them and I got moved up to domestic first 
class a number of times.

It's all how you treat people.

Dan

On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Rich Thomas wrote:
>> BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.
> 
> OK, I was extrapolating one person's SWA experience and maybe it was specific 
> to his personal situation. His daughter had him on her employee family plan 
> so he had liberal standby privileges, or for a small fee he could book first 
> class. He hated to wear his suit (he was a truck driver) but it was part of 
> the dress code for employee travelers in first class. In fact, he'd rather 
> not fly first class, but if his daughter was afraid the cheap seats would 
> fill up with paying customers and bump him off the plane she'd book him in 
> advance for first class which was never full.
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:

BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.


OK, I was extrapolating one person's SWA experience and maybe it was specific to 
his personal situation. His daughter had him on her employee family plan so he 
had liberal standby privileges, or for a small fee he could book first class. He 
hated to wear his suit (he was a truck driver) but it was part of the dress code 
for employee travelers in first class. In fact, he'd rather not fly first class, 
but if his daughter was afraid the cheap seats would fill up with paying 
customers and bump him off the plane she'd book him in advance for first class 
which was never full.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

One hopes.  The wire bundles look sorta like what your car has, no idea 
what kind of connectors are used.


But still, the idea of water dripping around inside an airplane's 
electrical guts gives one pause.


--R


On 7/9/13 10:17 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:

Knowing very little about airplane construction I would think that all
electrical connections and components would be well insulated and water
tight.  Is this true?

Mike
On Jul 9, 2013 9:12 AM, "M. Mitchell Marmel"  wrote:


At 7:00 PM -0400 7/8/13, Rich Thomas wrote:

  leaking considerably, dripping down through the lights and such above my

seat, right onto my head and neck.  I pointed out to the FA that this might
be an issue, electrics and all that in there and in the ceiling/floor
above, through which I am sure ran a number of flight controls and such.


Naw, most of that critical control stuff gets routed from the cockpit
directly down through to the keel, where the airframe is toughest. At most,
you might get a popped passenger light breaker or two.

-MMM-
(Airframe and Powerplant cert)

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Michael Canfield]

Knowing very little about airplane construction I would think that all
electrical connections and components would be well insulated and water
tight.  Is this true?

Mike
On Jul 9, 2013 9:12 AM, "M. Mitchell Marmel"  wrote:

> At 7:00 PM -0400 7/8/13, Rich Thomas wrote:
>
>  leaking considerably, dripping down through the lights and such above my
>> seat, right onto my head and neck.  I pointed out to the FA that this might
>> be an issue, electrics and all that in there and in the ceiling/floor
>> above, through which I am sure ran a number of flight controls and such.
>>
>
> Naw, most of that critical control stuff gets routed from the cockpit
> directly down through to the keel, where the airframe is toughest. At most,
> you might get a popped passenger light breaker or two.
>
> -MMM-
> (Airframe and Powerplant cert)
>
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

BA would regularly put me in first class no matter what my attire.

--R


On 7/9/13 7:02 AM, Mitch Haley wrote:
(most airlines don't like sticking commoners in first class unless 
they are properly attired) 



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

At 7:00 PM -0400 7/8/13, Rich Thomas wrote:

leaking considerably, dripping down through the lights and such 
above my seat, right onto my head and neck.  I pointed out to the FA 
that this might be an issue, electrics and all that in there and in 
the ceiling/floor above, through which I am sure ran a number of 
flight controls and such.


Naw, most of that critical control stuff gets routed from the cockpit 
directly down through to the keel, where the airframe is toughest. 
At most, you might get a popped passenger light breaker or two.


-MMM-
(Airframe and Powerplant cert)

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

Sounds like someone forgot the 7 Ps...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_Ps_%28military_adage%29

In this case, "Proper piloting prevents piss poor pullout and pileup."

-MMM-

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

The cabin crew told me that they would have put me in First Class but it was 
full. I was probably wearing jeans, as I always traveled in comfortable 
clothing whenever possible.

I got to chat with the second officer when he came back to get something out of 
his bags, and got to visit the flight deck and sit in the jump seat for about 
30 minutes, too (this was pre 9/11.)

One of my partners at work had a similar incident happen to him about halfway 
across the Atlantic, and they let him ride the rest of the way in the jump 
seat. He was all a twitter, as he is a very avid private pilot, formerly owning 
a Stearman and now a Maule, I believe.

The service on KLM is wonderful, even coach. In business class they gave you 
little gifts in each flight. At that time the gift was a hand made Delft tile 
with some sort of Netherlander design on it. I had a whole set of the things, 
which ended up being mounted on wooden plaques and hung around the top of our 
kitchen.

I highly recommend KLM. Schipol is a great airport, too.

D-

On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:05 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Craig wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:53:57 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
>>> I got to literally sleep in a bed with inflight entertainment and
>>> plenty of food/drink all the way over.  It was a wonderful flight.  A
>>> little cramped, but still better than the business class seats.
>> Sounds like it was even better than first class.
> 
> And he didn't have to wear a suit.
> (most airlines don't like sticking commoners in first class unless they are 
> properly attired)
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Craig wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:53:57 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:


I got to literally sleep in a bed with inflight entertainment and
plenty of food/drink all the way over.  It was a wonderful flight.  A
little cramped, but still better than the business class seats.


Sounds like it was even better than first class.


And he didn't have to wear a suit.
(most airlines don't like sticking commoners in first class unless they are 
properly attired)


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Craig]

On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:53:57 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:

> I got to literally sleep in a bed with inflight entertainment and
> plenty of food/drink all the way over.  It was a wonderful flight.  A
> little cramped, but still better than the business class seats.

Sounds like it was even better than first class.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Craig]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 20:48:21 -0500 "Kaleb C. Striplin"
 wrote:

> > Allan Streib  writes:
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
>
> Wow

That is really amazing, isn't it?

There is a "sidebar" box for a video of an animation of the crash on the
left side of the page
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/07/us/california-plane-crash/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

It provides a more-viewable account of the motion the plane underwent
after the crash. As others have said, that is one unbelievably rugged
airframe!

(To see the videos, I had to tell No Script to allow all of the scripts
on the page and then go to the Flash Player Settings Manager at
https://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager.html
to relax my settings so the videos would play. CNN's website is rather
obnoxious.)

There were also some serious injuries of the spine and other places. I
can sympathize with those people.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

I am sure most of the people on that plane would have rather got their bags and 
let the people behind them burn to death than give up their bags.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:29 PM, "WILTON"  wrote:

> I noticed that, too.  I can hear it now, "Uh, uh, wait just a minute.  Let me 
> get my bag."
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Dan Penoff" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 4:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
> 
> 
>> What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving 
>> passengers walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were pulling 
>> their carry on luggage behind them! I would have been walking over people to 
>> get out of that thing, baggage be damned!
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Rich Thomas 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
>>> looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would have 
>>> seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they were on an 
>>> instrument approach the system should have known better than to do that, or 
>>> to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.
>>> 
>>> Of course the answers will come out at some point, but it sure seems to me 
>>> like the pilot(s) were not paying attention.
>>> 
>>> BTW, the local responders say "it appeared one of the victims contacted our 
>>> apparatus during the incident."  Translation from cop-speak:  We ran over 
>>> the girl.
>>> 
>>> That girl's parents are going to own half of China when they get done with 
>>> suing the airline and the responder agency.  Better call Saul!
>>> 
>>> --R
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Most people are generally stupid.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:10 PM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving passengers 
> walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were pulling their carry 
> on luggage behind them! I would have been walking over people to get out of 
> that thing, baggage be damned!
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Rich Thomas 
>  wrote:
> 
>> They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
>> looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would have 
>> seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they were on an 
>> instrument approach the system should have known better than to do that, or 
>> to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.
>> 
>> Of course the answers will come out at some point, but it sure seems to me 
>> like the pilot(s) were not paying attention.
>> 
>> BTW, the local responders say "it appeared one of the victims contacted our 
>> apparatus during the incident."  Translation from cop-speak:  We ran over 
>> the girl.
>> 
>> That girl's parents are going to own half of China when they get done with 
>> suing the airline and the responder agency.  Better call Saul!
>> 
>> --R
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Wow

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Allan Streib  writes:
> 
>> Rick Knoble  writes:
>> 
>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:
>>> 
 
 I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
 the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
 down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
 that it remained mostly in one piece.
>>> 
>>> Link please.
>> 
>> It's on CNN's website.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
> 
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Heck with Wilton I bet even I could have landed it

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Rich Thomas  
wrote:

> Yeah, airspeed and altitude, that's the ticket.  You run out of either one 
> and you are in a world of hurt.  You got radar altimeters, baro altimeters, 
> GPS altimeters, and, oh yeah, look out the window.  And the airplane feeling 
> ree sluggish because it is flying too slow and wallowing down to 
> the water?  And the runway not coming up where it should be (oh look the 
> runway is wayyy up there when it should be right there!).
> 
> I have never flown a 777, but I am sure it is not wildly different from those 
> Cherokees I used to fly, especially when it comes to figuring out where and 
> how you want to plant it on the ground, and keeping your stick and throttle 
> sorta in sync to get you where you want to go.
> 
> --R
> 
> 
> On 7/8/13 11:04 AM, WILTON wrote:
>> Just saying they didn't HAFTA have it for seemingly such a simple approach 
>> with runway in sight from many miles out. 'Understood they were cleared for 
>> visual approach.  Were they depending on ILS or some other system, anyway, 
>> and allowing aircraft to take certain steps automatically without any
>> monitoring?   Cockpit was evidently filled with men of MANY hours of 
>> experience.  Couldn't at least ONE of 'em have monitored airspeed and 
>> altitude?  How much experience does it take to read airspeed and altitude? 
>> Not much.
>> 
>> Wilton
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch Haley" 
>> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:43 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, how many WEEKS is is OK to leave something like that unfixed at an 
>>>>>> oceanfront international airport with SFO's traffic volume?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mitch.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What do you expect form a goobermnt that can't do anything it is supposed 
>>>>> to (and required to) do (at great expense), but does all kinds of 
>>>>> nefarious stuff it is prohibited from doing at great expense?
>>> 
>>> WILTON wrote:
>>> > I think the ILS is irrelevant - weren't they cleared for visual approach
>>> > with runway visible from many miles out?
>>> >
>>> > Wilton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Loren:
>>> Is SFO run by the same people that run BART?
>>> 
>>> Wilton:
>>> Are you saying that visual is preferred and they wouldn't have used ILS if 
>>> available, or are you saying that a pilot with a non-zero chance of blowing 
>>> that particular visual landing has no business holding 300 lives in his 
>>> hands?
>>> 
>>> Mitch.
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

I bet Wilton could have landed that sum' biotch and he has never even flown a 
triple 7

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2013, at 9:21 AM, "WILTON"  wrote:

> Me, too, on both points - authority and dynamics.  I think that in this case, 
> there was great lack of cockpit dynamics - everybody dozing at the same time 
> - and on approach to landing under CAVU conditions?!
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Dan Penoff" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
> 
> 
>> Agreed. Just thought that was interesting. I wonder if cockpit dynamics 
>> contributed to the crash.
>> 
>> Dan always willing to question authority
>> 
>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 10:00 AM, WILTON  wrote:
>> 
>>> Still no excuse.
>>> 
>>> Wilton
>>> 
>>> - Original Message ----- From: "Dan Penoff" 
>>> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
>>>> something like 7 hours in this airframe.
>>>> 
>>>> Oops!
>>>> 
>>>> Dan
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 9:47 AM, WILTON  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 'Seems to me that somebody was not monitoring 2 of the most basic parts 
>>>>> of flying - airspeed and altitude.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Wilton
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message - From: "Peter Frederick" 
>>>>> 
>>>>> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 5:20 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide 
>>>>> path?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe Rolls Royce modified the engines as a result of the previous 
>>>>>> crash.  Don't know the specifics, but loss of power resulted in the 
>>>>>> crash and the cause of the low power was frozen or waxed up fuel in the 
>>>>>> engines, not the tanks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gelled fuel is a known hazard, but for some reason caused a crash after 
>>>>>> descent and on final approach.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

All of the trans-pacific flights I ever flew carried two full crews.

I was flying to Schipol (Amsterdam) one time on a 747-400 in business class, as 
we always got to fly business class on any trip totaling more than 8 hours 
transit time, which meant anything overseas was business class.  This was on a 
KLM flight, as KLM and El-Al were the only two carriers corporate security 
would approve for us to fly to Europe and the Middle East (I was on my way to 
Cairo.)

Right after takeoff, I went to recline my seat and the seat back promptly 
broke, making me recline (quite literally) into the person behind me.  The 
purser was in her seat at the bulkhead and came running back to sort things 
out.  She offered me a seat in coach since business class was full, which I 
politely refused, asking for an alternative.  I was hoping they would put me in 
first class...  She excused herself to go forward and talk to the flight crew.

She came back a minute later and asked me to follow her.

I got to sit/bunk in the crew's quarters for the remainder of the flight!  This 
is a small bunk room that is at the top of the stairs on the upper deck of some 
747-400s (I believe some of the other models have these as well.)

I got to literally sleep in a bed with inflight entertainment and plenty of 
food/drink all the way over.  It was a wonderful flight.  A little cramped, but 
still better than the business class seats.

Dan

On Jul 8, 2013, at 7:29 PM, G Mann wrote:

> Far as I know, all trans-pacific flights use dual crews. The flight times
> exceed FAA allowable duty day, so crew 1 flys first leg, crew 2 replaces
> them somewhere mid pacific while crew 1 goes to crew rest compartment.
> 
> The details will eventually come out in the FAA investigation. Bottom
> line.. touchdown prior to runway threshold, off improved space, impact with
> ground at high angle of attach it appears, removed tail surface resulting
> impact by "hard landing" with remaining structure.
> 
> The most worthless things in aviation. Altitude above you, runway behind
> you, airspeed that you don't have, fuel back at the airport, and planning
> you didn't do ahead of time.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
>> I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to
>> SFO? Gotta be 15-18 hours...
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
>> From: Dan Penoff 
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
>>path?
>> Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> 
>> I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had
>> something like 7 hours in this airframe.
>> 
>> Oops!
>> 
>> Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[G Mann]

Far as I know, all trans-pacific flights use dual crews. The flight times
exceed FAA allowable duty day, so crew 1 flys first leg, crew 2 replaces
them somewhere mid pacific while crew 1 goes to crew rest compartment.

The details will eventually come out in the FAA investigation. Bottom
line.. touchdown prior to runway threshold, off improved space, impact with
ground at high angle of attach it appears, removed tail surface resulting
impact by "hard landing" with remaining structure.

The most worthless things in aviation. Altitude above you, runway behind
you, airspeed that you don't have, fuel back at the airport, and planning
you didn't do ahead of time.



On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to
> SFO? Gotta be 15-18 hours...
>
> -Curt
>
> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
> From: Dan Penoff 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
> path?
> Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had
> something like 7 hours in this airframe.
>
> Oops!
>
> Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mountain Man]

Dieselhead wrote:
> One of the drawbacks of computerized control is that people become used to
> it and forget the underlying functions, then don't comprehend when the
> automated system is not functioning correctly.

For sure!!
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mountain Man]

--R wrote:
> Yeah, airspeed and altitude, that's the ticket.  You run out of either one
> and you are in a world of hurt.

The Buffalo syndrome.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mountain Man]

My son is interested in these things - he drives a lear35.

flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/

See if you can wade thru that.  Seems to be somewhat thorough.
may

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[MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Gerry Archer]

On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:

I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
that it remained mostly in one piece.


I wonder how the (787?), which supposedly has a lot of plastic structural 
parts, would fare in that situation?
Gerry 



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

They took care of me on the flight over and back too.  I pretty much 
anesthetized myself for most of the 11 or 14 hours or whatever it was, 
both ways.  I flew back to Houston from Tokyo, I might have stopped en 
route somewhere to change planes, I forget.


Oh, I remember now too -- I was on a 747 on the way over, it was raining 
like hell at JFK (snow in Boston closed the airport right after we left) 
and I got the seat in the lower deck right under the upper deck 
starboard door.  It was leaking considerably, dripping down through the 
lights and such above my seat, right onto my head and neck.  I pointed 
out to the FA that this might be an issue, electrics and all that in 
there and in the ceiling/floor above, through which I am sure ran a 
number of flight controls and such. That was aside from the fact I was 
getting this shower on my head and seat.  She gave me a tea towel from 
the galley, and said it would be OK once we took off and pressurized the 
plane, and the door sealed up.  I thought maybe the pilots might want to 
know their airplane was leaking like a sieve, but she was pretty much 
unconcerned.  Oh well.  She did keep the food and refreshments flowing 
so that kinda made up for it.


--R

On 7/8/13 6:38 PM, Dan Penoff wrote:

NWA was my airline of choice for many years, much because they did a better job 
taking care of their business passengers.



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

NWA was my airline of choice for many years, much because they did a better job 
taking care of their business passengers.  In 8 years of almost weekly travel, 
I only had my bags lost/delayed once, and that wasn't the airlines fault (I got 
crosswise with an asshat Customs officer entering Canada in Toronto who tried 
to detain me, making me miss my flight to Halifax.)

As for Japan and vending machines, well, you simply can't understand it unless 
you see it.

Dan

Sent from my iPad
> 
>> That happened to me when I went to Japan.  Our plane in Boston got taken out 
>> of service, they put us on a little puddle jumper to JFK to catch a flight, 
>> I could see my bags sitting on a cart on the ramp, it was starting to 
>> snow/rain.  I told various airline people and the PJ pilot that my bags were 
>> right over there (pointing them out on the baggage cart getting soaked) and 
>> they kept saying, "We'll get them there."  Yeah right.  Get to Narita, no 
>> bags.  The NWA Japanese kid there who was dealing with issues was just about 
>> to have a stroke apologizing and trying to figure it out. I had silver or 
>> gold status on the airline, he was very very helpful, took all my info for 
>> the hotel, etc.  He found them, said they would be there on the same flight 
>> that day (which was getting in tomorrow evening , sunday).
>> 
>> So here I am in Tokyo, 6'4" tall, wondering where the hell I am going to 
>> find some business clothes on a Sunday for my Monday business meetings. Did 
>> not think jeans and a ratty travel shirt would work.  I get a call the next 
>> evening at the hotel, it is this kid, saying the bags would be there in a 
>> hour or so by courier.  The bags get there at like 9PM, everything is 
>> totally soaked, suits, shirts, underwear, socks, everything.  ohsht.  So I 
>> call the front desk, the guy there knew about the bags, was again 
>> apologetic, I tell him I need to get this stuff cleaned before the morning, 
>> he says no problem.  He comes up, bowing like crazy, says he will take care 
>> of it, will be there by 6AM next morning, Monday.
>> 
>> I did not sleep much all night since it was daytime for me, but shonuff, 6AM 
>> the same kid from the night before shows up with all my stuff, cleaned, 
>> pressed, folded, hung, all that, no charge.  Some white shirts stained, he 
>> said he would try to find some for me, airline would buy them. He would not 
>> take a tip, was apologetic the whole time about the airline screwing up 
>> (like that was his issue). I ended up getting some money from the airline, 
>> the kid from Narita called me again to make sure everything got sorted out.
>> 
>> I was amazed at all this.  And that there were beer vending machines on like 
>> every corner in Tokyo.  Then I got back home to Boston where no one gave a 
>> s... about anything, much less your concerns over their poor service.
>> 
>> --R
>> 

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Peter Frederick]

I've heard several comments on the luggage, and the one that really  
caught my attention is that it's possible the cabin crew asked them to  
haul it out.  Reports are that the overhead compartments had come open  
and dumped it all out anyway, and the best way to get it out of the  
way is for people to grab and run,


I've been in a hard enough landing to pop the overheads (727 in 1974  
at Louisville).  No damage to the plane, but they did check the tires  
really well and we bounced three times before getting all the wheels  
on the ground.  Crap all over, and that was in the days before people  
stuffed the overheads with suitcases and backpacks big enough to clog  
the aisles.


Not something I'd sweat much about, they got EVERYONE out, including  
the badly injured, and no one appears to have been burned, so again,  
I'd not sweat the luggage.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

En route to my assignment in Greenland in Feb '78, stopped by Colorado 
Springs to meet The General, have several days of briefings, etc. - no bag 
arrived with me; went through meeting with General, etc., in casual 
"civvies."  General knew immediately what had happened; didn't seem to care; 
we got along great, anyway, as we should have.  First thing he said as I 
walked into his office, "Aha, airline got to ya, huh?"   Bag with uniforms 
arrived that evening.  Always after that, I wore uniform on trips back and 
forth to Greenland.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


That happened to me when I went to Japan.  Our plane in Boston got taken 
out of service, they put us on a little puddle jumper to JFK to catch a 
flight, I could see my bags sitting on a cart on the ramp, it was starting 
to snow/rain.  I told various airline people and the PJ pilot that my bags 
were right over there (pointing them out on the baggage cart getting 
soaked) and they kept saying, "We'll get them there."  Yeah right.  Get to 
Narita, no bags.  The NWA Japanese kid there who was dealing with issues 
was just about to have a stroke apologizing and trying to figure it out. 
I had silver or gold status on the airline, he was very very helpful, took 
all my info for the hotel, etc.  He found them, said they would be there 
on the same flight that day (which was getting in tomorrow evening , 
sunday).


So here I am in Tokyo, 6'4" tall, wondering where the hell I am going to 
find some business clothes on a Sunday for my Monday business meetings. 
Did not think jeans and a ratty travel shirt would work.  I get a call the 
next evening at the hotel, it is this kid, saying the bags would be there 
in a hour or so by courier.  The bags get there at like 9PM, everything is 
totally soaked, suits, shirts, underwear, socks, everything.  ohsht.  So I 
call the front desk, the guy there knew about the bags, was again 
apologetic, I tell him I need to get this stuff cleaned before the 
morning, he says no problem.  He comes up, bowing like crazy, says he will 
take care of it, will be there by 6AM next morning, Monday.


I did not sleep much all night since it was daytime for me, but shonuff, 
6AM the same kid from the night before shows up with all my stuff, 
cleaned, pressed, folded, hung, all that, no charge.  Some white shirts 
stained, he said he would try to find some for me, airline would buy them. 
He would not take a tip, was apologetic the whole time about the airline 
screwing up (like that was his issue). I ended up getting some money from 
the airline, the kid from Narita called me again to make sure everything 
got sorted out.


I was amazed at all this.  And that there were beer vending machines on 
like every corner in Tokyo.  Then I got back home to Boston where no one 
gave a s... about anything, much less your concerns over their poor 
service.


--R



On 7/8/13 4:41 PM, Mitch Haley wrote:
And it wouldn't be fun to land on another continent 20,000 miles from 
home with zero luggage.



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Peter Frederick]

Somehow they were 34 knots under correct speed, applied power and did  
not re-gain speed, and had the stick shaker go off.  As I said,  
something strange is going on here, I just don't believe everyone in  
the cockpit was napping on final approach, the pilot has put big  
planes on the ground many, many times without incident.


It's a good plane too -- no history of winky instruments or funky  
computer taking over issues, etc.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Peter Frederick]

Korean airline, not subject to FAA rules in terms of pilot training,  
etc except where they agree to it.


Something was seriously wrong, the pilot flying the plane has landed  
747's at SFO multiple times and there isn't THAT much difference  
between airframes on landing technique -- stay at the correct speeds,  
keep to the glide slope, etc.  Nobody, especially a large aircraft  
pilot with 10k hours of flying time, is going to "seat of the pants" a  
plane full of passengers.


We will see, but I wouldn't attribute the crash to "stupid pilot"  
until we have a much better idea of what happened and why.


Pete

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Lotta mighty lucky people.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Bennell" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



On 08/07/2013 10:04 AM, WILTON wrote:
Just saying they didn't HAFTA have it for seemingly such a simple 
approach with runway in sight from many miles out. 'Understood they 
were cleared for visual approach.  Were they depending on ILS or some 
other system, anyway, and allowing aircraft to take certain steps 
automatically without any
monitoring?   Cockpit was evidently filled with men of MANY hours of 
experience.  Couldn't at least ONE of 'em have monitored airspeed and 
altitude?  How much experience does it take to read airspeed and 
altitude? Not much.


Wilton

I am not a pilot so I know very little about this sort of thing but I 
have to say it was an error or series of errors but unintentional, 
obviously.
The pilots were on the plane and they could easily have been killed in 
this mess.
They obvioulsy made some errors somewhere and almost paid the big price 
for it.


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Yeah, if you're standing/waiting and the bag is right there, OK.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



WILTON wrote:
I noticed that, too.  I can hear it now, "Uh, uh, wait just a minute. 
Let me get my bag."


Depends on whether you were stuck standing there longer than it took to 
retrieve the bag. And it wouldn't be fun to land on another continent 
20,000 miles from home with zero luggage.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:
The bags get there at like 9PM, 
everything is totally soaked, suits, shirts, underwear, socks, 
everything.  ohsht. 


Note to self: line luggage with garbage bags.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dieselhead]

snipA San Francisco airport spokesman said a component of the airport's
instrument landing system that tracks an incoming aeroplane's glide path has
been out of service in recent weeks and was not operational on Saturday.
Pilots and air safety experts said the glide path technology was far from
essential for a safe landing in good weather. But Chesley "Sully"
Sullenberger, a retired pilot and safety consultant who gained fame for
landing a plane safely in the Hudson river in 2009, said investigators would
certainly be looking into the issue.
"The pilots would have had to rely solely on visual cues to fly the proper
glide path to the runway, and not have had available to them the electronic
information that they typically have even in good weather at most major
airports," he told a local TV news channelsnip


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/07/san-francisco-plane-crash-asiana-airlines


One of the drawbacks of computerized control is that people become 
used to it and forget the underlying functions, then don't comprehend 
when the automated system is not functioning correctly.  This is true 
of machines, cars, trucks or aircraft.  It is analogous to white line 
hypnosis.  Yes, so the lines have been yellow for years, but the 
hypnosis is the same.


If pilots get used to the ILS glidepath, and sensors, bells and 
whistles to fly, it is easy to understand why they lost sight of 
altitude and attitude.  Not excusable, but understandable.


The alarms went off, but by then there was not enough time, altitude 
or speed to recover.  We will see what the final reports say.




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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

That happened to me when I went to Japan.  Our plane in Boston got taken 
out of service, they put us on a little puddle jumper to JFK to catch a 
flight, I could see my bags sitting on a cart on the ramp, it was 
starting to snow/rain.  I told various airline people and the PJ pilot 
that my bags were right over there (pointing them out on the baggage 
cart getting soaked) and they kept saying, "We'll get them there."  Yeah 
right.  Get to Narita, no bags.  The NWA Japanese kid there who was 
dealing with issues was just about to have a stroke apologizing and 
trying to figure it out.  I had silver or gold status on the airline, he 
was very very helpful, took all my info for the hotel, etc.  He found 
them, said they would be there on the same flight that day (which was 
getting in tomorrow evening , sunday).


So here I am in Tokyo, 6'4" tall, wondering where the hell I am going to 
find some business clothes on a Sunday for my Monday business meetings.  
Did not think jeans and a ratty travel shirt would work.  I get a call 
the next evening at the hotel, it is this kid, saying the bags would be 
there in a hour or so by courier.  The bags get there at like 9PM, 
everything is totally soaked, suits, shirts, underwear, socks, 
everything.  ohsht.  So I call the front desk, the guy there knew about 
the bags, was again apologetic, I tell him I need to get this stuff 
cleaned before the morning, he says no problem.  He comes up, bowing 
like crazy, says he will take care of it, will be there by 6AM next 
morning, Monday.


I did not sleep much all night since it was daytime for me, but shonuff, 
6AM the same kid from the night before shows up with all my stuff, 
cleaned, pressed, folded, hung, all that, no charge.  Some white shirts 
stained, he said he would try to find some for me, airline would buy 
them.  He would not take a tip, was apologetic the whole time about the 
airline screwing up (like that was his issue). I ended up getting some 
money from the airline, the kid from Narita called me again to make sure 
everything got sorted out.


I was amazed at all this.  And that there were beer vending machines on 
like every corner in Tokyo.  Then I got back home to Boston where no one 
gave a s... about anything, much less your concerns over their poor service.


--R



On 7/8/13 4:41 PM, Mitch Haley wrote:
And it wouldn't be fun to land on another continent 20,000 miles from 
home with zero luggage. 



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dieselhead]

Not a slur.  Not at all.  But it is sometimes used to describe 
frugal.  It is just a word used to describe the origin of a group of 
people.  Portugee is not a slur either.  It just describes the origin 
of that group of Hawaiian people.



No, they are not. I thought that word was an ethnic slur aimed at 
the Chinese that was commonly used in Hawaii?


And for the record, I consider myself frugal, but when my life is in 
immediate danger, possessions are going to be the last thing I worry 
about...


Dan


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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

Trust me, the airlines are providing everything they possibly need at this 
point, I am sure

On Jul 8, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> WILTON wrote:
>> I noticed that, too.  I can hear it now, "Uh, uh, wait just a minute.  Let 
>> me get my bag."
> 
> Depends on whether you were stuck standing there longer than it took to 
> retrieve the bag. And it wouldn't be fun to land on another continent 20,000 
> miles from home with zero luggage.
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

No, they are not. I thought that word was an ethnic slur aimed at the Chinese 
that was commonly used in Hawaii?

And for the record, I consider myself frugal, but when my life is in immediate 
danger, possessions are going to be the last thing I worry about...

Dan


Dan

On Jul 8, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving 
>> passengers walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were pulling 
>> their carry on luggage behind them! I would have been walking over people to 
>> get out of that thing, baggage be damned!
>> 
>> Dan
> 
> Dan, who is obviously not Pake!
> 
> Well, Koreans are technically not Pake either, but share the Waste not want 
> not mentality of the Pake.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Randy Bennell]

On 08/07/2013 10:04 AM, WILTON wrote:
Just saying they didn't HAFTA have it for seemingly such a simple 
approach with runway in sight from many miles out. 'Understood they 
were cleared for visual approach.  Were they depending on ILS or some 
other system, anyway, and allowing aircraft to take certain steps 
automatically without any
monitoring?   Cockpit was evidently filled with men of MANY hours of 
experience.  Couldn't at least ONE of 'em have monitored airspeed and 
altitude?  How much experience does it take to read airspeed and 
altitude? Not much.


Wilton

I am not a pilot so I know very little about this sort of thing but I 
have to say it was an error or series of errors but unintentional, 
obviously.
The pilots were on the plane and they could easily have been killed in 
this mess.
They obvioulsy made some errors somewhere and almost paid the big price 
for it.


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving passengers 
walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were pulling their carry 
on luggage behind them! I would have been walking over people to get out of 
that thing, baggage be damned!

Dan

On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Rich Thomas  
wrote:

> They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
> looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would have 
> seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they were on an 
> instrument approach the system should have known better than to do that, or 
> to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.
> 
> Of course the answers will come out at some point, but it sure seems to me 
> like the pilot(s) were not paying attention.
> 
> BTW, the local responders say "it appeared one of the victims contacted our 
> apparatus during the incident."  Translation from cop-speak:  We ran over the 
> girl.
> 
> That girl's parents are going to own half of China when they get done with 
> suing the airline and the responder agency.  Better call Saul!
> 
> --R

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

WILTON wrote:
I noticed that, too.  I can hear it now, "Uh, uh, wait just a minute.  
Let me get my bag."


Depends on whether you were stuck standing there longer than it took to retrieve 
the bag. And it wouldn't be fun to land on another continent 20,000 miles from 
home with zero luggage.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dieselhead]

What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving 
passengers walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were 
pulling their carry on luggage behind them! I would have been 
walking over people to get out of that thing, baggage be damned!


Dan


Dan, who is obviously not Pake!

Well, Koreans are technically not Pake either, but share the Waste 
not want not mentality of the Pake.


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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rick Knoble]

On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:41 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:

>> 
>> It's on CNN's website.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Thank you. 
Wow. And pretty much everybody walked away. Quite a testament to Boeing in 
general, and the 777 in particular. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

I noticed that, too.  I can hear it now, "Uh, uh, wait just a minute.  Let 
me get my bag."


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


What really gassed me when I saw the first photos of the surviving 
passengers walking away from the wreckage was that many of them were 
pulling their carry on luggage behind them! I would have been walking over 
people to get out of that thing, baggage be damned!


Dan

On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Rich Thomas 
 wrote:


They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would 
have seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they were 
on an instrument approach the system should have known better than to do 
that, or to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.


Of course the answers will come out at some point, but it sure seems to 
me like the pilot(s) were not paying attention.


BTW, the local responders say "it appeared one of the victims contacted 
our apparatus during the incident."  Translation from cop-speak:  We ran 
over the girl.


That girl's parents are going to own half of China when they get done 
with suing the airline and the responder agency.  Better call Saul!


--R


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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Probably could've landed fine on the over/under run (blast pad) if he'd been 
just a few feet (maybe 8 or 10?) higher to clear that "seawall."  Blast pads 
(over run) areas are weaker than runway, of course, but touching down 
there's a helluva lot better than really "pranging" it.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Rich Thomas wrote:
They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would 
have seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they were 
on an instrument approach the system should have known better than to do 
that, or to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.


"Then -- just 1.5 seconds before the plane slammed into the runway -- the 
crew decided to call off the landing and try to pull up for another try, 
Hersman said."


How can you pull up for a go-around if you're already too slow to land?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:
They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would 
have seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they 
were on an instrument approach the system should have known better than 
to do that, or to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.


"Then -- just 1.5 seconds before the plane slammed into the runway -- the crew 
decided to call off the landing and try to pull up for another try, Hersman said."


How can you pull up for a go-around if you're already too slow to land?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

They were under a VFR approach, or at least the day was clear, so anyone 
looking out the window (and glancing at the airspeed indicator) would 
have seen they were slow, and not aimed at the runway.  Even if they 
were on an instrument approach the system should have known better than 
to do that, or to let them do that without all kinds of warnings.


Of course the answers will come out at some point, but it sure seems to 
me like the pilot(s) were not paying attention.


BTW, the local responders say "it appeared one of the victims contacted 
our apparatus during the incident."  Translation from cop-speak:  We ran 
over the girl.


That girl's parents are going to own half of China when they get done 
with suing the airline and the responder agency.  Better call Saul!


--R


On 7/8/13 2:32 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote:

I don't see any other explanation unless the pitot system was frozen over
and the altimeter was set wrong (probably not or FDR would show).  So how
can this be allowed to happen?  Did everybody think someone else was flying
the jet (I've seen that happen)?

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:47 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

'Seems to me that somebody was not monitoring 2 of the most basic parts of
flying - airspeed and altitude.

Wilton




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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Allan Streib  writes:

> Rick Knoble  writes:
>
>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>> I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
>>> the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
>>> down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
>>> that it remained mostly in one piece.
>>
>> Link please. 
>
> It's on CNN's website.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Rick Knoble  writes:

> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:
>
>> 
>> I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
>> the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
>> down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
>> that it remained mostly in one piece.
>
> Link please. 

It's on CNN's website.



-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Scott Ritchey]

I don't see any other explanation unless the pitot system was frozen over
and the altimeter was set wrong (probably not or FDR would show).  So how
can this be allowed to happen?  Did everybody think someone else was flying
the jet (I've seen that happen)?

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:47 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

'Seems to me that somebody was not monitoring 2 of the most basic parts of 
flying - airspeed and altitude.

Wilton




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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rick Knoble]

On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:

> 
> I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
> the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
> down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
> that it remained mostly in one piece.


Link please. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Craig]

On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 13:52:33 -0400 Allan Streib 
wrote:

> I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
> the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
> down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
> that it remained mostly in one piece.

It is indeed!

Where was the video that you saw?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Dan Penoff  writes:

> I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
> something like 7 hours in this airframe.

I think it was a bit more than that, but he also had thousands of hours
in other large jets.  He was by all accounts I've seen a very seasoned
pilot.

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Craig]

On Mon, 08 Jul 2013 11:14:37 -0400 Rich Thomas
 wrote:

> Yeah, airspeed and altitude, that's the ticket.  You run out of either 
> one and you are in a world of hurt
> 
> I have never flown a 777, but I am sure it is not wildly different from 
> those Cherokees I used to fly, especially when it comes to figuring out 
> where and how you want to plant it on the ground, and keeping your
> stick and throttle sorta in sync to get you where you want to go.

Some of the fellows at church yesterday were saying that their descent
rate before flaring for the landing was much higher than it should have
been.

It sounds like they were off the mark long before landing.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dan Penoff]

10 hours. 14 from Seoul to Detroit (I still have the scars from doing that haul 
more than once!)

Dan

On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to 
> SFO? Gotta be 15-18 hours...
> 
> -Curt
> 
> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
> From: Dan Penoff 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
> path?
> Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
> something like 7 hours in this airframe.
> 
> Oops!
> 
> Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Allan Streib]

Rich Thomas  writes:

> I have never flown a 777, but I am sure it is not wildly different from 
> those Cherokees I used to fly, especially when it comes to figuring out 
> where and how you want to plant it on the ground, and keeping your stick 
> and throttle sorta in sync to get you where you want to go.

I have never flown anything, but from reading, the notable differences
with large airliners is that they respond more slowly to control inputs.
You have to be "ahead" of the aircraft to a certain extent.  Engine
response is not as quick as with small piston-engined planes.  If you
get too low and slow on approach there comes a point where you are
doomed.  They apparently were coming in with engines at idle 7 seconds
out, and it takes that long to spool up and get any usable thrust going
from idle to full power.

I would add that from the video I've seen, where the aircraft strikes
the ground and then does a near 360 spin up into the air and then slams
down again, it's a remarkable testament to the build quality of the 777
that it remained mostly in one piece.

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

'Bout 12 hrs from Seoul to SFO depending on winds, of course.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Curt Raymond" 

To: "Diesel List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?


I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to 
SFO? Gotta be 15-18 hours...


-Curt

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
From: Dan Penoff 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
path?
Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
something like 7 hours in this airframe.


Oops!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Curt Raymond]

43 hours: 
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/08/boeing-777-crashes-at-san-francisco-international-airport/


- Forwarded Message -
From: Curt Raymond 
To: Diesel List  
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?
 


I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to SFO? 
Gotta be 15-18 hours...

-Curt

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
From: Dan Penoff 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
    path?
Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had something 
like 7 hours in this airframe.

Oops!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Curt Raymond]

I thought it was more like 37 hours. How long is the flight from Korea to SFO? 
Gotta be 15-18 hours...

-Curt

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:51:21 -0400
From: Dan Penoff 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide
    path?
Message-ID: <8e7461e2-c5f6-4730-b697-a0b47442d...@penoff.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had something 
like 7 hours in this airframe.

Oops!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Dieselhead]

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:



 The last time something like this happened it was fuel waxing up resulting
 in power loss on final approach, which I'm sure will be examined.



How can something like that possibly happen these days?  Hasn't the
tendency of diesel fuel and similar substances such as jet fuel to gell at
low temperatures been well known for a hundred years?  Wouldn't it be
standard procedure to add an anti-gelling additive at the refinery?

Alex


Ayup!  But if there is a human involved, they screw up formulations. 
Additive could have been left out.


I've seen it too many times.  Just got a report today of such a 
screwup.  Not of the life or death sort.  But the mixer was short the 
main ingredient so he put in half, then the full amount of all the 
other 11  ingredients.  No brains.  Faulty thought process.  Actually 
he is normally a smart, thorough and dependable guy.  I just don't 
understand the thought process at all.


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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Michael Canfield]

I think this just gives me one more reason to drive one of my "antique"
cars/trucks and see the sights along the way.

Mike
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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Rich Thomas]

Yeah, airspeed and altitude, that's the ticket.  You run out of either 
one and you are in a world of hurt.  You got radar altimeters, baro 
altimeters, GPS altimeters, and, oh yeah, look out the window.  And the 
airplane feeling ree sluggish because it is flying too slow 
and wallowing down to the water?  And the runway not coming up where it 
should be (oh look the runway is wayyy up there when it should be 
right there!).


I have never flown a 777, but I am sure it is not wildly different from 
those Cherokees I used to fly, especially when it comes to figuring out 
where and how you want to plant it on the ground, and keeping your stick 
and throttle sorta in sync to get you where you want to go.


--R


On 7/8/13 11:04 AM, WILTON wrote:
Just saying they didn't HAFTA have it for seemingly such a simple 
approach with runway in sight from many miles out. 'Understood they 
were cleared for visual approach.  Were they depending on ILS or some 
other system, anyway, and allowing aircraft to take certain steps 
automatically without any
monitoring?   Cockpit was evidently filled with men of MANY hours of 
experience.  Couldn't at least ONE of 'em have monitored airspeed and 
altitude?  How much experience does it take to read airspeed and 
altitude? Not much.


Wilton

- Original Message - From: "Mitch Haley" 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide 
path?






Yeah, how many WEEKS is is OK to leave something like that unfixed 
at an oceanfront international airport with SFO's traffic volume?


Mitch.


What do you expect form a goobermnt that can't do anything it is 
supposed to (and required to) do (at great expense), but does all 
kinds of nefarious stuff it is prohibited from doing at great expense?


WILTON wrote:
> I think the ILS is irrelevant - weren't they cleared for visual 
approach

> with runway visible from many miles out?
>
> Wilton


Loren:
Is SFO run by the same people that run BART?

Wilton:
Are you saying that visual is preferred and they wouldn't have used 
ILS if available, or are you saying that a pilot with a non-zero 
chance of blowing that particular visual landing has no business 
holding 300 lives in his hands?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Just saying they didn't HAFTA have it for seemingly such a simple approach 
with runway in sight from many miles out.  'Understood they were cleared for 
visual approach.  Were they depending on ILS or some other system, anyway, 
and allowing aircraft to take certain steps automatically without any
monitoring?   Cockpit was evidently filled with men of MANY hours of 
experience.  Couldn't at least ONE of 'em have monitored airspeed and 
altitude?  How much experience does it take to read airspeed and altitude? 
Not much.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?





Yeah, how many WEEKS is is OK to leave something like that unfixed at 
an oceanfront international airport with SFO's traffic volume?


Mitch.


What do you expect form a goobermnt that can't do anything it is 
supposed to (and required to) do (at great expense), but does all kinds 
of nefarious stuff it is prohibited from doing at great expense?


WILTON wrote:
> I think the ILS is irrelevant - weren't they cleared for visual approach
> with runway visible from many miles out?
>
> Wilton


Loren:
Is SFO run by the same people that run BART?

Wilton:
Are you saying that visual is preferred and they wouldn't have used ILS if 
available, or are you saying that a pilot with a non-zero chance of 
blowing that particular visual landing has no business holding 300 lives 
in his hands?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

Yep.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



Dan Penoff wrote:
I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
something like 7 hours in this airframe.


He got more than that on the day of the crash, didn't he?

At any rate, isn't it pretty simple?
You deploy your flaps and wheels, establish your glide attitude, and if 
the place you want to touch down is rising in your windscreen, you'll hit 
way short. Add throttle until your ground target is steady or just barely 
sinking below your windscreen towards your wheels.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Yeah, how many WEEKS is is OK to leave something like that unfixed at 
an oceanfront international airport with SFO's traffic volume?


Mitch.


What do you expect form a goobermnt that can't do anything it is 
supposed to (and required to) do (at great expense), but does all 
kinds of nefarious stuff it is prohibited from doing at great expense?


WILTON wrote:
> I think the ILS is irrelevant - weren't they cleared for visual approach
> with runway visible from many miles out?
>
> Wilton


Loren:
Is SFO run by the same people that run BART?

Wilton:
Are you saying that visual is preferred and they wouldn't have used ILS if 
available, or are you saying that a pilot with a non-zero chance of blowing that 
particular visual landing has no business holding 300 lives in his hands?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Jim Cathey]

I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had 
something like 7 hours in this airframe.


Gotta start sometime.  Obviously something was wrong.
Or, as is more usual, _several_ somethings were wrong.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[Mitch Haley]

Dan Penoff wrote:

I heard on NPR this morning that the pilot flying left seat only had something 
like 7 hours in this airframe.


He got more than that on the day of the crash, didn't he?

At any rate, isn't it pretty simple?
You deploy your flaps and wheels, establish your glide attitude, and if the 
place you want to touch down is rising in your windscreen, you'll hit way short. 
Add throttle until your ground target is steady or just barely sinking below 
your windscreen towards your wheels.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?

[WILTON]

I think the ILS is irrelevant - weren't they cleared for visual approach 
with runway visible from many miles out?


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cause of Frisco crash: Poor piloting plus no glide path?



>Michael Canfield wrote:

Sounds like someone is in a world of trouble.


Yeah, how many WEEKS is is OK to leave something like that unfixed at an 
oceanfront international airport with SFO's traffic volume?


Mitch.


What do you expect form a goobermnt that can't do anything it is supposed 
to (and required to) do (at great expense), but does all kinds of 
nefarious stuff it is prohibited from doing at great expense?


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