Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Detonation is more the cracked piston route which can be Diesels don't detonate, which is a flame front running faster than the speed of sound in the medium. (If I recall correctly.) Diesel fuel is sprayed into a hot chamber, and burns as it goes in. Late-coming fuel doesn't find any oxygen to bind with nearby, and so travels further until it does. It's a _very_ different combustion cycle than an Otto. The injector spray pattern is crucial, because you want the fuel to be well mixed and sprayed around so that it burns where it is supposed to, in the middle, rather than up against the piston directly. The same basic principles of stochastic mixture apply in Diesel engines. So if you 'pump' in more air you will need more fuel. No, they do not. Stoichiometric ratios might determine how clean-burning the engine was, but not how much power you got. You don't need to supply fuel to match all the air. That's the whole point of a diesel, and one of the big reasons they get better fuel economy in general. Apparently you can over- fuel a diesel and get more power, but at diminishing returns. Until you quench the thing entirely. See the smoke-belching monster diesel trucks. Those engines don't last long, but what do you expect with 60# of boost and 1200+ horses out of a rated 300 horse motor? (For example.) As I attempted to explain earlier, it is the amount of air being compressed that determines temperatures. The amount of fuel does not influence temperature Pre-ignition, yes. Once flame enters the picture that's not true, and the situation gets complicated. PV=nRT only where there aren't chemical (or other) reactions polluting the pool. Diesels don't have 'mixture'. The only mixture is determined by how good the spray pattern is. (And combustion chamber design.) They get less power per displacement (ceterus paribus) because they're not as efficient at using up the last of the air. They get better economy because they're not constrained to stoichiometric ratios in order to prevent detonation and too-high pressures (i.e. too-hot chambers) because lean _mixtures_ burn faster (and therefore hotter in a chamber that's not expanding fast enough to absorb the heat energy and convert it to mechanical energy. (Diesel also has somewhat more BTU/gallon, so that helps the economy figures a little, but not enough to explain away the observed differences.) If the motion of the piston can't suck away the heat fast enough and convert it to work, that heat will go into melting the piston instead. Any particular engine design will have a sweet spot where its burn rate has the optimum power extracted at some particular RPM and load. They'll vary. I find heat engine design theory fascinating. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged (now Saab 8 valve turbo)
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: tyler wrote: It's amazing that Saab was running over 2 bar with the stock turbo- It's amazing that I didn't catch that error in my message before I sent it. Also amazing that I sent it to the list when I just wanted to send it to Tyler. I'm glad you did---now I know the quick and dirty way to crank up the boost on my '91 convertible Turbo without looking for computer upgrades. ;) Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged (now Saab 8 valve turbo)
Alex Chamberlain wrote: I'm glad you did---now I know the quick and dirty way to crank up the boost on my '91 convertible Turbo without looking for computer upgrades. ;) Early 1980's, simple pressure dashpot wastegate actuator. Back off the locknut on the actuator shaft, remove the e-clip, slide the turnbuckle off, give it a turn, clip it back on, go for test drive, tighten locknut when you're happy with the setting. Early 1990's, I have no idea but it might still be that simple. I worked on APC cars but never adjusted the boost on one, so I can't remember how APC might differ from the 1978-1981 cars. Haven't been under a Saab hood in 20 years. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
This reaction amazes me in contrast! I'm also in another online community- Turbobricks- where adding an enormous turbo to an NA Volvo is considered a normal reliable daily driver. I personally think you could run tons of boost daily through an otherwise stock 240D and it would last LONGER than an NA one, and the drivetrain would never notice the difference. You could even run A LOT OF BOOST and it would last forever if you watched the EGTs. If the turbo conversion looks professional, buy it, drive it, and enjoy it. just my opinion... Tyler On May 28, 2009, at 6:07 PM, Richard Hattaway wrote: There was no factory 240D Turbo. So it's either an engine change to a 617.95 engine or an add on. The former is OK, I guess, if you want to load the clutch/tranny with torque it was not designed for. ( I'd do it, but I'm as much a mule as you are an arguer (c: ) The drivetrains are over-engineered, but not that far, IMO. But if you're gentle it might be OK for a coupla hundred K or so. The add on scares me, as you are wandering way outside design parameters. The pistons in the turbo cars were oil cooled from underneath, with a squirter etc. to help dissipate the heat. NA engines do not have this feature, and it's necessary if you actually use the turbo, or you will burn holes in the tops of the pistons. This falls into discussions of fuel increases and boost pressure, and could go on all night. I personally would not consider trying to push a 616 engine any farther than it's already set up for, it's just not worth the risk/reward ratio. And I am pretty open to doing all kinds of things with these engines (c: .. If it's an add on, I'd un-add it. You can probably sell it on Ebay. When you see the car, most of this will become much clearer. Until then we're all just guessing. I am gonna quit guessing and go get a beer.. RH ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Boost doesn't hurt turbo diesels, too rich a fuel mixture or too advanced injection timing does. I say BOOST IT. If it's a turbo from a 300D that baby should be good for 20+psi. Install a new radiator, retard the injection timing a bit from stock, and adjust the mixture to keep the egts down (you will need an EGT gauge). It'll last decades If the turbo conversion was done properly they would have added a large oil cooler. An intercooler will give you even more power, but isn't needed to keep the motor together. Tyler On May 28, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Fmiser wrote: It is not in the interest of long term survival of the engine to put a turbo system like the 5 cylinders have. Both the turbo and normally aspirated engines don't make more power because they are at the thermal limits. If more power is generated, so is more heat. And so the pistons especially are likely to melt. Unless the _driver_ has the necessary gauges (exhaust gas temp is the most important) and takes the responsibility to be the safety limit. MB decided most drivers could not be so trusted, and so tuned the car to be safe. But the factory turbo is limited at aprox 15 psi (lb/in^2) (1 bar). That is _not_ the only choice for a turbo!! If a 240D were fitted with a 3-4 psi turbo (0.2 bar), there would be little increase in piston melting danger - especially with a EGT gauge. Driveability would improve (how much, I don't know), but certainly noticeable at higher altitudes. Or, ceramic coat the pistons, put a big intercooler on, modify the oil flow, and rig a turbo set to 45 psi (3 bar). Then figure on rebuilding the engine ever few months. *grin* --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Tyler wrote: If the turbo conversion was done properly they would have added a large oil cooler. This is Benz, the oil cooler is already 1/4 the size of the radiator. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Anyway I think you'll find this list is big on keeping stuff stock or mostly stock. I'm in that list mostly because I don't think I've got the mechanical ability to get into serious modification. To see more folks that are into hot-rodding (snicker, the thought that turning a 72hp engine to 95hp is hot rodding is laughable) check out the forums on Peach Parts. -Curt Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:04:41 -0700 From: Tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: c95122ed-1871-49c6-ae6f-3a16da148...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes This reaction amazes me in contrast! I'm also in another online community- Turbobricks- where adding an enormous turbo to an NA Volvo is considered a normal reliable daily driver. I personally think you could run tons of boost daily through an otherwise stock 240D and it would last LONGER than an NA one, and the drivetrain would never notice the difference. You could even run A LOT OF BOOST and it would last forever if you watched the EGTs. If the turbo conversion looks professional, buy it, drive it, and enjoy it. just my opinion... Tyler -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/580883e1/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
The only problem that time and time again when this is tried the engine fails in short order Tyler wrote: This reaction amazes me in contrast! I'm also in another online community- Turbobricks- where adding an enormous turbo to an NA Volvo is considered a normal reliable daily driver. I personally think you could run tons of boost daily through an otherwise stock 240D and it would last LONGER than an NA one, and the drivetrain would never notice the difference. You could even run A LOT OF BOOST and it would last forever if you watched the EGTs. If the turbo conversion looks professional, buy it, drive it, and enjoy it. just my opinion... Tyler -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I'm with you Tyler - I have pushed redblock B230s hard in 740Ts for well over 300K with no adverse affects. Keep oil and colent in them and they will keep performing for you. You got any volvo's right now? Peter On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: This reaction amazes me in contrast! I'm also in another online community- Turbobricks- where adding an enormous turbo to an NA Volvo is considered a normal reliable daily driver. I personally think you could run tons of boost daily through an otherwise stock 240D and it would last LONGER than an NA one, and the drivetrain would never notice the difference. You could even run A LOT OF BOOST and it would last forever if you watched the EGTs. If the turbo conversion looks professional, buy it, drive it, and enjoy it. just my opinion... Tyler On May 28, 2009, at 6:07 PM, Richard Hattaway wrote: There was no factory 240D Turbo. So it's either an engine change to a 617.95 engine or an add on. The former is OK, I guess, if you want to load the clutch/tranny with torque it was not designed for. ( I'd do it, but I'm as much a mule as you are an arguer (c: ) The drivetrains are over-engineered, but not that far, IMO. But if you're gentle it might be OK for a coupla hundred K or so. The add on scares me, as you are wandering way outside design parameters. The pistons in the turbo cars were oil cooled from underneath, with a squirter etc. to help dissipate the heat. NA engines do not have this feature, and it's necessary if you actually use the turbo, or you will burn holes in the tops of the pistons. This falls into discussions of fuel increases and boost pressure, and could go on all night. I personally would not consider trying to push a 616 engine any farther than it's already set up for, it's just not worth the risk/reward ratio. And I am pretty open to doing all kinds of things with these engines (c: .. If it's an add on, I'd un-add it. You can probably sell it on Ebay. When you see the car, most of this will become much clearer. Until then we're all just guessing. I am gonna quit guessing and go get a beer.. RH ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/e160d958/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Curt Raymond wrote: I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Wonko's got you beat. He drives 330 yards two times a day. ;-) Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: maybe my memory is faulty. mao Your memory faulty?? What were we talking about anyway?? RH ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Yep, I've got a 1987 745 Turbo. It has 250k miles, I drive it and use it VERY hard, and it runs (but doesn't look) like new. Tyler Peter Hertzing wrote: I'm with you Tyler - I have pushed redblock B230s hard in 740Ts for well over 300K with no adverse affects. Keep oil and colent in them and they will keep performing for you. You got any volvo's right now? Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I've been to chez Wonko and to his office, what he really needs is a skateboard... -Curt Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:23:53 -0400 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4a1feff9.9040...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Curt Raymond wrote: I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Wonko's got you beat. He drives 330 yards two times a day. ;-) Mitch. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/3f5b4243/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
There's no reason to have an inherent aversion to performance modifications if they're done properly. As Marshall said, Mercedes probably knows more about how to engineer a Mercedes than any of us, but they didn't have hindsight, 30 years of technological advancement, or specific knowledge of how the vehicle would be used. They had to make specific tradeoffs to make a cheap, and general purpose vehicle. I've seen plenty of highly customized vehicles which are certainly more reliable than your average stock 30 year old car, especially if the customizer has a lot of knowledge and experience. Personally, I think Mercedes would have been better off using a turbocharged and intercooled OM616 in place of the OM617. It would have been lighter, smaller, more fuel efficient, and just as powerful. The extra factory mods on a factory OM617 turbo are certainly worthwhile if you're designing a turbo diesel from the ground up, but not absolutely necessary to have a long lived motor. The Volvo 740 Turbo (as mentioned before) is a good example of the factory tradeoffs. Volvo chose to set up those cars very conservatively, at about 165 horsepower, when with some slight tuning they would have had a reliable 200-250 horsepower. But a stock 740 Turbo can pull a 5,000 pound trailer up a steep grade in 110F heat all day long on regular gasoline, year in and year out and last for decades. If the car were boosted to produce much more horsepower, it would probably pre-detonate under those conditions and throw a rod. If the vehicle were never used under those conditions, it would still last decades at the higher horsepower level. Tyler Curt Raymond wrote: I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Anyway I think you'll find this list is big on keeping stuff stock or mostly stock. I'm in that list mostly because I don't think I've got the mechanical ability to get into serious modification. To see more folks that are into hot-rodding (snicker, the thought that turning a 72hp engine to 95hp is hot rodding is laughable) check out the forums on Peach Parts. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Curt Raymond wrote: I've been to chez Wonko and to his office, what he really needs is a skateboard... He's got a nice bicycle... But Don claims he can't transport a 500lb client on it. I tried to tell him Gary has his own cars... Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
From: tyler casi...@usermail.com Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:47 PM They had to make specific tradeoffs to make a cheap, and general purpose vehicle. Extremely robust and durable (read over engineered) Absolutely. General purpose perhaps. Cheap, no. In the 1980's MB automobiles were quite expensive. My 1985 300CD listed for over $40k IIRC. In today's dollars a kings ransom. In the mid nineties at MB, the marketers took over and the engineers had to take a back seat so to speak. That was when the letter designation of a Benz moved from the rear of the model to the front. I.E. 560sl became SL500 and so forth. It was during that period that MB became more tailored to the US market. Previously they were designed to run on the autobahns at 200 kph (125 mph) for hours on end, with US standards added. That is why a recently discussed Euro SO class was touted as extremely desirable. It had none of the US regulated crap on it. Rick ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Did Vulva ever put a system like Saab's APC on the 740 turbo? I replaced a piston in a 1981 900 Turbo once. (APC came out in 1982) Never seen a Mahle piston broke like that before. My boss took it out for a test drive and asked if the boost gauge (no numbers) was supposed to swing off scale. First line past neutral is 1/2 bar, max boost. 2nd line is .75 bar, right about where the safety switch is supposed to kick in. Last mark is 2 bar, and it was going past that. I found the hose to the overboost protection switch under the dash, unhooked and plugged. I plugged it back in and readjusted the wastegate for 7psi. My boss drove it home for the night, complained it was slow compared to the way it was before. Well, duh, it only made 150hp, just like it was supposed to. We compromised. I lengtened the wastegate rod until the safety switch killed the fuel pump, and then backed off 1/2 turn. Told Vic that was absolutely the most power the car would make without bypassing the safety and breaking pistons. He sold it a while later, and AFAIK the buyer had no problems. At least it never landed in my shop again. I'd love to know how many psi it was running when the moron previous owner blew it up. At least he shut it down immediately and the block was still usable. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Not to my knowledge. I new a lot of guys who have putthe Saab system on the 740 On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Did Vulva ever put a system like Saab's APC on the 740 turbo? I replaced a piston in a 1981 900 Turbo once. (APC came out in 1982) Never seen a Mahle piston broke like that before. My boss took it out for a test drive and asked if the boost gauge (no numbers) was supposed to swing off scale. First line past neutral is 1/2 bar, max boost. 2nd line is .75 bar, right about where the safety switch is supposed to kick in. Last mark is 2 bar, and it was going past that. I found the hose to the overboost protection switch under the dash, unhooked and plugged. I plugged it back in and readjusted the wastegate for 7psi. My boss drove it home for the night, complained it was slow compared to the way it was before. Well, duh, it only made 150hp, just like it was supposed to. We compromised. I lengtened the wastegate rod until the safety switch killed the fuel pump, and then backed off 1/2 turn. Told Vic that was absolutely the most power the car would make without bypassing the safety and breaking pistons. He sold it a while later, and AFAIK the buyer had no problems. At least it never landed in my shop again. I'd love to know how many psi it was running when the moron previous owner blew it up. At least he shut it down immediately and the block was still usable. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/f9f47978/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
There was a rare factory option called Turbo+ which functions similar to APC and nearly doubles boost for a short period of time under WOT, adding over 20 horsepower. It's very rare, and not as good as the APC system. Stock 740 Turbos do have a knock sensor which retards ignition timing, which is supposed to save the motor from pre-detonation, but I've still seen cars with bad wastegates or wastegate lines destroy motors, despite the knock sensor. The APC system can be pulled from a Saab in the junkyard and installed on any turbocharged gasoline car. It's a popular mod on Volvos (especially 240 Turbos without knock sensors), since you can set it to automatically adjust boost to the maximum possible to prevent pre-detonation- so the amount of boost you're running will change dynamically depending on the quality of your fuel! This is still a bit risky though... It's amazing that Saab was running over 2 bar with the stock turbo- about 29psi! The motor probably could handle that if the fuel system and turbo were upgraded to maintain a rich fuel mixture and cool intake air at that boost level to prevent piston destroying pre-detonation. The stock turbo and fuel system probably can't handle over 14-15psi safely. If I ever see an intact APC system in the junkyard, I'll grab it and install it on my 740. Tyler Mitch Haley wrote: Did Vulva ever put a system like Saab's APC on the 740 turbo? I replaced a piston in a 1981 900 Turbo once. (APC came out in 1982) Never seen a Mahle piston broke like that before. My boss took it out for a test drive and asked if the boost gauge (no numbers) was supposed to swing off scale. First line past neutral is 1/2 bar, max boost. 2nd line is .75 bar, right about where the safety switch is supposed to kick in. Last mark is 2 bar, and it was going past that. I found the hose to the overboost protection switch under the dash, unhooked and plugged. I plugged it back in and readjusted the wastegate for 7psi. My boss drove it home for the night, complained it was slow compared to the way it was before. Well, duh, it only made 150hp, just like it was supposed to. We compromised. I lengtened the wastegate rod until the safety switch killed the fuel pump, and then backed off 1/2 turn. Told Vic that was absolutely the most power the car would make without bypassing the safety and breaking pistons. He sold it a while later, and AFAIK the buyer had no problems. At least it never landed in my shop again. I'd love to know how many psi it was running when the moron previous owner blew it up. At least he shut it down immediately and the block was still usable. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Having some direct experience with turboed om616s I'll weigh in some thoughts for what it is worth. First off, an aftermarket om616 turbo will never be as robust as an om617A without extensive modifications. However, it can still be a decent motor and if setup correctly can last quite a while. Many of the turboed om616s out there however are not properly setup and are doomed to premature failure. The most significant difference, in my opinion, between the om616 and the om617a is the oil squirters for cooling the underside/skirt of the piston. These do make a big difference. These can be retrofitted if you have a machinist who is worth his salt in gold. The next big difference is the IP. Budget minded folks usually just toy with the enrichment screws on the IP. This can cause extreme exhaust gas temps with a rich condition during mid-range and/or worse a horrible lean condition during full boost which will result in MELTING YOUR PISTONS. Sometimes folks just use the stock IP. Ugh! To get the most out of the conversion the IP needs to be re-calibrated to turbo specs, an ALDA added onto the IP and the governor changed to turbo specs. Then the injectors need to be changed to turbo specs as well. I only know of one IP builder that can and has done this allowing for an optimum balance to be achieved while running +/- 1 bar of boost. That was 20 years ago. Also, proper oil supply to the turbo much be provided for. That part is not hard. However, to gain the most out of the conversion, the cam, too, should be designed for a forced induction parameters. Taking all of the precautions and doing this on a near new om616, they can easily last 200k miles. Slapping a turbo on a tired om616 with no heed paid to the caveats generally sees a motor failing in well under 50k miles. Do it once and do it right. Then you can have the peace of mind to enjoy the ride. A properly turboed om616 with a stick behind it is quite a fun beast and a worthy contender to spank many of its peers its time. Clutches, however, become a maintenance item. :) Regards, Mathieu Cama Old World Automotive Lawrenceville, GA www.oldworldauto.com 404-550-8000 9:30 AM - 5:30 PM Mon-Fri ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
This is only true on a gasoline engine which risks pre-detonation. A turbo diesel simply has reduced power when it runs lean under boost, but usually lower rather than higher EGTs. An NA injector pump won't meter fuel as accurately as one with an ALDA, but if tuned conservatively it won't put the motor at any extra risk, it just won't perform as well... Look at the VW ecodiesel, which as sold with an NA injector pump and a turbo. They run lean under boost all the time, which improves fuel economy, reduces emissions, and reduces power. They don't melt pistons... Tyler Mathieu J. Cama wrote: worse a horrible lean condition during full boost which will result in MELTING YOUR PISTONS. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged (now Saab 8 valve turbo)
tyler wrote: It's amazing that Saab was running over 2 bar with the stock turbo- It's amazing that I didn't catch that error in my message before I sent it. Also amazing that I sent it to the list when I just wanted to send it to Tyler. On the very early Saab turbos: The dial markings stop at 14-15 psi boost, or two atmospheres in the manifold. There are no numbers on the dial, just different color zones. I call a color change point a mark. Marks on the dial are atmosphere plus 0 psi, 7-ish, 11-ish, and 14-ish. To the left of the first (central) mark is vacuum. Or to put it another way, the center mark is one bar (no boost, no vacuum), the yellow band goes to the next mark at 1.5 bar, then another color to 1.75 bar, then 2.0 bar. I think that car might have been pushing 18-20psi, but I really don't know. I also don't want to know what the EGT was on a hard run. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On May 29, 2009, at 3:46 PM, tyler wrote: This is only true on a gasoline engine which risks pre-detonation. A turbo diesel simply has reduced power when it runs lean under boost, but usually lower rather than higher EGTs. An NA injector pump won't meter fuel as accurately as one with an ALDA, but if tuned conservatively it won't put the motor at any extra risk, it just won't perform as well... Look at the VW ecodiesel, which as sold with an NA injector pump and a turbo. They run lean under boost all the time, which improves fuel economy, reduces emissions, and reduces power. They don't melt pistons... Tyler Tyler, Then please explain the four MB diesel that I directly know of with melted pistons from an excessive lean condition. Lean = hot, turbo or not! Detonation is more the cracked piston route which can be acerbated by a lean condition. I'm not talking lean as in only a few % off from spec, here. No point in adding a turbo if it is only for bragging rights. Add it only if you plan to do something with it. You can do it the cheap way and only get marginal gains that are hardly worth the time and effort of the conversion or you can do it right and have a really nice machine to show for it afterwards. Regards, Mathieu Cama Old World Automotive Lawrenceville, GA www.oldworldauto.com 404-550-8000 9:30 AM - 5:30 PM Mon-Fri ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Is it possible the pistons melted for some reason other than a lean condition? I can't explain why those four vehicles melted pistons since I haven't seen them- but I can't imagine it being caused by a lean condition. Lean = cold, rich = hot EGTs in a diesel. Surely someone else can back me up on this? I have tuned several modified diesels with an EGT gauge, and lean equals less smoke, low EGTs, less power, and rich equals more smoke, high EGTs, more power. Perhaps those engines were actually running too rich, were being lugged, or had their injection timing set incorrectly? Tyler Mathieu J. Cama wrote: Tyler, Then please explain the four MB diesel that I directly know of with melted pistons from an excessive lean condition. Lean = hot, turbo or not! Detonation is more the cracked piston route which can be acerbated by a lean condition. I'm not talking lean as in only a few % off from spec, here. No point in adding a turbo if it is only for bragging rights. Add it only if you plan to do something with it. You can do it the cheap way and only get marginal gains that are hardly worth the time and effort of the conversion or you can do it right and have a really nice machine to show for it afterwards. Regards, Mathieu Cama ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Mathieu J. Cama wrote: Then please explain the four MB diesel that I directly know of with melted pistons from an excessive lean condition. You don't know what the heck you're talking about? Or you didn't mean to say diesel? If an excessive lean condition melted diesels, they'd all drop dead idling in traffic jams. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On May 29, 2009, at 5:20 PM, tyler wrote: Is it possible the pistons melted for some reason other than a lean condition? I can't explain why those four vehicles melted pistons since I haven't seen them- but I can't imagine it being caused by a lean condition. Lean = cold, rich = hot EGTs in a diesel. Surely someone else can back me up on this? I have tuned several modified diesels with an EGT gauge, and lean equals less smoke, low EGTs, less power, and rich equals more smoke, high EGTs, more power. Perhaps those engines were actually running too rich, were being lugged, or had their injection timing set incorrectly? Tyler Tyler, The common denominator for all of those motors and the respective cylinders that experienced the heat damage were defective injectors (melted pistons and cracked/melted rings). The three motors I personally examined after the fact had injectors on the respective cylinders with way above spec pop-pressures and poor spray pattern. These motors were a mix of low and higher mileage, IP timings set to the T, and driven so that there was not really any carbon on their valves; driven as a diesel should. Two of those motors suffered their deaths in less than 10k miles of having injectors installed, the other after about 20k and did not nail when hot, and just a hint at startup. The symptoms came on hard and sudden without warning. The other one, iirc, also had recent injector replacements. Since that fiasco, I never install any injector without testing it first, regardless of the maker or the seller. i understand where you are coming from regarding too rich and high heat, however, there is also heat that can be caused by a lean condition that plays hand in hand with detonation. As with most things in life, there are exceptions to the rules. Mathieu ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I think what you are describing is something else entirely from a lean condition. If the injectors had a poor spray pattern and/or the wrong opening pressure- they could have been injecting fuel too soon (leaking) which would cause similar problems to pre-detonation in a gasoline motor. This never happens on a properly working diesel regardless of air/fuel ratio, since normally the fuel is injected right at the correct time for ignition. A diesel with good injectors and correct injection timing will not suffer damage due to pre-detonation regardless of how much (or how little) fuel you supply or how much boost you run- because the fuel doesn't enter the combustion chamber until the correct time. Tyler Mathieu J. Cama wrote: Tyler, The common denominator for all of those motors and the respective cylinders that experienced the heat damage were defective injectors (melted pistons and cracked/melted rings). The three motors I personally examined after the fact had injectors on the respective cylinders with way above spec pop-pressures and poor spray pattern. These motors were a mix of low and higher mileage, IP timings set to the T, and driven so that there was not really any carbon on their valves; driven as a diesel should. Two of those motors suffered their deaths in less than 10k miles of having injectors installed, the other after about 20k and did not nail when hot, and just a hint at startup. The symptoms came on hard and sudden without warning. The other one, iirc, also had recent injector replacements. Since that fiasco, I never install any injector without testing it first, regardless of the maker or the seller. i understand where you are coming from regarding too rich and high heat, however, there is also heat that can be caused by a lean condition that plays hand in hand with detonation. As with most things in life, there are exceptions to the rules. Mathieu ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On May 29, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Mathieu J. Cama wrote: You don't know what the heck you're talking about? Sure, not a clue. Or you didn't mean to say diesel? Must have been a typo. If an excessive lean condition melted diesels, they'd all drop dead idling in traffic jams. Mitch. Conditions change under near max to max load. Much more stress AND heat. Mathieu ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
your engine was also built for a turbo tyler wrote: Yep, I've got a 1987 745 Turbo. It has 250k miles, I drive it and use it VERY hard, and it runs (but doesn't look) like new. Tyler Peter Hertzing wrote: I'm with you Tyler - I have pushed redblock B230s hard in 740Ts for well over 300K with no adverse affects. Keep oil and colent in them and they will keep performing for you. You got any volvo's right now? Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
No, you have that backward, lean is hot, too much fuel cools things off. tyler wrote: Is it possible the pistons melted for some reason other than a lean condition? I can't explain why those four vehicles melted pistons since I haven't seen them- but I can't imagine it being caused by a lean condition. Lean = cold, rich = hot EGTs in a diesel. Surely someone else can back me up on this? I have tuned several modified diesels with an EGT gauge, and lean equals less smoke, low EGTs, less power, and rich equals more smoke, high EGTs, more power. Perhaps those engines were actually running too rich, were being lugged, or had their injection timing set incorrectly? Tyler -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On May 29, 2009, at 5:43 PM, tyler wrote: I think what you are describing is something else entirely from a lean condition. If the injectors had a poor spray pattern and/or the wrong opening pressure- they could have been injecting fuel too soon (leaking) which would cause similar problems to pre-detonation in a gasoline motor. This never happens on a properly working diesel regardless of air/fuel ratio, since normally the fuel is injected right at the correct time for ignition. A too high of a pop pressure will never result in an early injection. If anything, too little volume if any at all will be injected. A low pop-pressure will often result in detonation (heard by nailing), and often if left unchecked will cause the injector to stream. That will also destroy a piston in short order. A diesel with good injectors and correct injection timing will not suffer damage due to pre-detonation regardless of how much (or how little) fuel you supply or how much boost you run- because the fuel doesn't enter the combustion chamber until the correct time. Tyler Yes, timing is critical to avoiding detonation. Injection quality is critical too. However, take 3 cylinders operating as they should, and make the injector in the 4th have about 1/2 its required fuel and drive the hell out of the motor and you will have damage in short order. BTDT, seen the result. Mathieu ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Yes- in (and only in) a gasoline engine. Tyler Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: No, you have that backward, lean is hot, too much fuel cools things off. tyler wrote: Is it possible the pistons melted for some reason other than a lean condition? I can't explain why those four vehicles melted pistons since I haven't seen them- but I can't imagine it being caused by a lean condition. Lean = cold, rich = hot EGTs in a diesel. Surely someone else can back me up on this? I have tuned several modified diesels with an EGT gauge, and lean equals less smoke, low EGTs, less power, and rich equals more smoke, high EGTs, more power. Perhaps those engines were actually running too rich, were being lugged, or had their injection timing set incorrectly? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Or any other Otto cycle engine. tyler wrote: Yes- in (and only in) a gasoline engine. Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Four times a day. I go home for lunch. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Wonko's got you beat. He drives 330 yards two times a day. ;-) -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/1c9e3411/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I believe that Tyler is correct -- a Diesel engine runs with max available air all the time, and controls power by adding/subtracting fuel. More fuel, more fire, more heat. A vergasser requires the correct stoichiometric proportions to run correctly. Too lean, and it's too hot. Too rich, and it's too cool. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:20 PM, tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: Or any other Otto cycle engine. tyler wrote: Yes- in (and only in) a gasoline engine. Tyler -- OK Don Pair of W124 300D 2.5 Turbos -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/9ff90f51/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Nooner. ; Wilton - Original Message - From: Wonko the Sane don.b...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged Four times a day. I go home for lunch. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think I'm one of the higher mileage current 240D drivers, 330 miles this week, can anybody top that? Wonko's got you beat. He drives 330 yards two times a day. ;-) -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/1c9e3411/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On Fri, 29 May 2009 17:50:23 -0500 OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: I believe that Tyler is correct -- a Diesel engine runs with max available air all the time, and controls power by adding/subtracting fuel. More fuel, more fire, more heat. A vergasser requires the correct stoichiometric proportions to run correctly. Too lean, and it's too hot. Too rich, and it's too cool. Yes, that is correct. The 617s for example, do not have a throttle plate in the air intake. They take in the same amount of air per revolution regardless of accelerator position. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
What you just described is exactly why I'm against mods, what if I find myself on a large grade in 110F heat with a trailer? I'm sure the lower horsepower car would do it it'd just do it slower. I'm okay with slower and keeping my car going as opposed to faster and throwing a rod. -Curt Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:47:12 -0700 From: tyler casi...@usermail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4a201fa0.3070...@usermail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed There's no reason to have an inherent aversion to performance modifications if they're done properly. As Marshall said, Mercedes probably knows more about how to engineer a Mercedes than any of us, but they didn't have hindsight, 30 years of technological advancement, or specific knowledge of how the vehicle would be used. They had to make specific tradeoffs to make a cheap, and general purpose vehicle. I've seen plenty of highly customized vehicles which are certainly more reliable than your average stock 30 year old car, especially if the customizer has a lot of knowledge and experience. Personally, I think Mercedes would have been better off using a turbocharged and intercooled OM616 in place of the OM617. It would have been lighter, smaller, more fuel efficient, and just as powerful. The extra factory mods on a factory OM617 turbo are certainly worthwhile if you're designing a turbo diesel from the ground up, but not absolutely necessary to have a long lived motor. The Volvo 740 Turbo (as mentioned before) is a good example of the factory tradeoffs. Volvo chose to set up those cars very conservatively, at about 165 horsepower, when with some slight tuning they would have had a reliable 200-250 horsepower. But a stock 740 Turbo can pull a 5,000 pound trailer up a steep grade in 110F heat all day long on regular gasoline, year in and year out and last for decades. If the car were boosted to produce much more horsepower, it would probably pre-detonate under those conditions and throw a rod. If the vehicle were never used under those conditions, it would still last decades at the higher horsepower level. Tyler -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/1ed074a9/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I think I just realized something he's been missing all this time. This is a perfect excuse to have more cars... One to keep at home, one to keep at work, and the bicycle to shuttle between them... -Curt Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:00:50 -0400 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 4a2022d2.5000...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Curt Raymond wrote: I've been to chez Wonko and to his office, what he really needs is a skateboard... He's got a nice bicycle... But Don claims he can't transport a 500lb client on it. I tried to tell him Gary has his own cars... Mitch. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/a3fa2606/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
One thing we are forgetting is that MB does not like turbo Diesel manual transmission cars. This is perhaps the big reason they did not turbo the 240D, there may be other reasons such as the fact that they offered the 300D NA alongside the 240D, for those who wanted a bit of extra grunt. I would guess that a turbo 2.4 would have similar power and torque as the 3 liter. Also the 240D was mainly destined for taxi work, where fuel efficiency and longevity where key factors and no, adding a turbo does not increase the efficiency of a motor much. The same basic principles of stochastic mixture apply in Diesel engines. So if you 'pump' in more air you will need more fuel. Perhaps one of the reason for premature after-market turbo failure is that they where not done right and are running too lean a mixture. I would also like to add that in situations where you stop and start the motor a lot, a NA motor is better. Hendrik tyler wrote: There's no reason to have an inherent aversion to performance modifications if they're done properly. As Marshall said, Mercedes probably knows more about how to engineer a Mercedes than any of us, but they didn't have hindsight, 30 years of technological advancement, or specific knowledge of how the vehicle would be used. They had to make specific tradeoffs to make a cheap, and general purpose vehicle. I've seen plenty of highly customized vehicles which are certainly more reliable than your average stock 30 year old car, especially if the customizer has a lot of knowledge and experience. Personally, I think Mercedes would have been better off using a turbocharged and intercooled OM616 in place of the OM617. It would have been lighter, smaller, more fuel efficient, and just as powerful. The extra factory mods on a factory OM617 turbo are certainly worthwhile if you're designing a turbo diesel from the ground up, but not absolutely necessary to have a long lived motor. The Volvo 740 Turbo (as mentioned before) is a good example of the factory tradeoffs. Volvo chose to set up those cars very conservatively, at about 165 horsepower, when with some slight tuning they would have had a reliable 200-250 horsepower. But a stock 740 Turbo can pull a 5,000 pound trailer up a steep grade in 110F heat all day long on regular gasoline, year in and year out and last for decades. If the car were boosted to produce much more horsepower, it would probably pre-detonate under those conditions and throw a rod. If the vehicle were never used under those conditions, it would still last decades at the higher horsepower level. Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
OK lets get back to basic Diesel principles, nice and slowly... During the intake stroke a Diesel engine either sucks in air (NA) or has air forced into the chamber (turbo/supercharger). Now the amount of air that is supposed to be in an engine is calculated so as to set up the fuel delivery and get an ideal ratio of fuel to air. The way a Diesel works is that the air in the combustion chamber is compressed to achieve a temperature whereby the fuel injected into the super heated air explodes, giving a power stroke. What happens when more air than the motor was designed to use is introduced? There is more heat and pressure or if you like more air being compressed in the same space results in higher air temperatures. I don't know if connecting rods have been mentioned but I could assume that there would be more load on them in a turbo engine. Hendrik tyler wrote: Yes- in (and only in) a gasoline engine. Tyler Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: No, you have that backward, lean is hot, too much fuel cools things off. tyler wrote: Is it possible the pistons melted for some reason other than a lean condition? I can't explain why those four vehicles melted pistons since I haven't seen them- but I can't imagine it being caused by a lean condition. Lean = cold, rich = hot EGTs in a diesel. Surely someone else can back me up on this? I have tuned several modified diesels with an EGT gauge, and lean equals less smoke, low EGTs, less power, and rich equals more smoke, high EGTs, more power. Perhaps those engines were actually running too rich, were being lugged, or had their injection timing set incorrectly? Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
In my eyes, your stock rose by ten points by saying slowly rather than slow -- sorry, I notice that sort of thing. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Hendrik Fay heni...@ozemail.com.auwrote: OK lets get back to basic Diesel principles, nice and slowly... -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/8e9a1a5e/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
On May 29, 2009, at 3:46 PM, tyler wrote: This is only true on a gasoline engine which risks pre-detonation. A turbo diesel simply has reduced power when it runs lean under boost, but usually lower rather than higher EGTs. Mathieu J. Cama wrote: Then please explain the four MB diesel that I directly know of with melted pistons from an excessive lean condition. Lean = hot, turbo or not! Detonation is more the cracked piston route which can be acerbated by a lean condition. I'm not talking lean as in only a few % off from spec, here. Hmm. I'm pretty sure my stock OM617A has a tired ALDA spring, so it _always_ runs lean. Set right, the only time it would not run lean is an max power - like 4k RPM steady climbing a hill. Do I need to worry about melted pistons? --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
No not unless you introduce more air than stock. As I attempted to explain earlier, it is the amount of air being compressed that determines temperatures. The amount of fuel does not influence temperature, neither does the timing of the fuel injection. Incorrect fuel delivery for whatever reason will affect economy, power output and smokescreen abilities, however it will not raise or lower combustion temperatures. However if the timing is advanced you may damage your engine because the fuel is ignited too soon and the piston is still on the compression stroke and thus the motor is trying to push the piston up, whilst the exploding fuel/air mixture is trying to push the piston down. No damage possible if the fuel is delivered too late but a lack of power and smoke will occur because the air temperature is decreasing and the combustion space is increasing, resulting in an less than ideal environment. This is why MARSHALL always reminded klatta klatta owners to check timing chain stretch. Always remember that MB have been making Diesel powered passenger cars since the 30's and know a thing or three about them. More than some genius in a backyard who had this turbo hanging around and finds that the 240D does not satisfy the need for speed. I applaud ingenuity but putting a turbo on a Diesel engine designed to run without one is not ingenuity, it's something else. Hendrik trying to make sense in a senseless world Fmiser wrote: On May 29, 2009, at 3:46 PM, tyler wrote: This is only true on a gasoline engine which risks pre-detonation. A turbo diesel simply has reduced power when it runs lean under boost, but usually lower rather than higher EGTs. Mathieu J. Cama wrote: Then please explain the four MB diesel that I directly know of with melted pistons from an excessive lean condition. Lean = hot, turbo or not! Detonation is more the cracked piston route which can be acerbated by a lean condition. I'm not talking lean as in only a few % off from spec, here. Hmm. I'm pretty sure my stock OM617A has a tired ALDA spring, so it _always_ runs lean. Set right, the only time it would not run lean is an max power - like 4k RPM steady climbing a hill. Do I need to worry about melted pistons? --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
So do I. Wilton - Original Message - From: Wonko the Sane don.b...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged In my eyes, your stock rose by ten points by saying slowly rather than slow -- sorry, I notice that sort of thing. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Hendrik Fay heni...@ozemail.com.auwrote: OK lets get back to basic Diesel principles, nice and slowly... -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/8e9a1a5e/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Yea, Wilton, but our breed is no longer in vogue. U NO LOL? On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:54 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: So do I. Wilton - Original Message - From: Wonko the Sane don.b...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged In my eyes, your stock rose by ten points by saying slowly rather than slow -- sorry, I notice that sort of thing. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Hendrik Fay heni...@ozemail.com.au wrote: OK lets get back to basic Diesel principles, nice and slowly... -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/8e9a1a5e/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090529/64d6c1f1/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Yea, Wilton, but our breed is no longer in vogue. The breed may not be in vogue, but it is certainly not dead yet. Rick ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger.. It has 140,000 miles according to my MB mechanic who also works on it said it is a beautiful car-to go for it!! Apparently this owner/friend hurt his leg on his construction equipment and ended up losing that leg.Therefore a stick is hard for him to drive and he has another Mercedes he can drive. I have a 1983 240D automatic with 184,000 which I love have to fix items like heater core, A/C, Antenna,master cylinder so on. I intend to keep it anyway but my question is people have told me to stay away from Turbochargers..What problems could I run into since I don't know much about this?? Is the Turbo removeable if there are problems?[Stupid question I presume] Are Turbos expensive upkeep ?? And lastly what is this car worth since he told me to make an offer?? I do not want to take advantage of him; this from a guy at 59 who just had a shocking stroke 2 1/2 months ago.So I can't putter on my cars for at least 2-3 months..THanx for your input in advance.By the way I have yet to see the car but will soon !! Bob Huston 1969 Austin America 1983 Merceds 240D 184,000 [I'm a Rusty buyer !!] **Cooking Dinner For Two? Sign Up Get Immediate Member-Only Savings. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222652750x1201460983/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215225797%3B37274671%3Bq%3Fhttp:%2 F%2Frecipes.cookingfor2.pillsbury.com%2F%3FESRC%3D934) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090528/d74d1711/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Is this some sort of custom aftermarket turbocharging job? If so, the quality and reliability depends on how well the job was done, something nobody can tell without inspecting the vehicle themselves- but it's unlikely to be as good or reliable as a factory turbocharged vehicle. There is no real disadvantage to a factory turbocharged diesel engine that was done properly. They seem to last longer (due to cleaner combustion), have a lot more power, and get better or equal fuel efficiency. Sometimes turbocharged diesels have slightly higher oil consumption, but otherwise they have no serious burdens compared to a non-turbo. Turbocharging a diesel is a no-brainer, and win-win situation if done correctly. Nowadays the major reason a factory would spec a non-turbo engine in any vehicle is to cut manufacturing costs. Tyler rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger.. It has 140,000 miles according to my MB mechanic who also works on it said it is a beautiful car-to go for it!! Apparently this owner/friend hurt his leg on his construction equipment and ended up losing that leg.Therefore a stick is hard for him to drive and he has another Mercedes he can drive. I have a 1983 240D automatic with 184,000 which I love have to fix items like heater core, A/C, Antenna,master cylinder so on. I intend to keep it anyway but my question is people have told me to stay away from Turbochargers..What problems could I run into since I don't know much about this?? Is the Turbo removeable if there are problems?[Stupid question I presume] Are Turbos expensive upkeep ?? And lastly what is this car worth since he told me to make an offer?? I do not want to take advantage of him; this from a guy at 59 who just had a shocking stroke 2 1/2 months ago.So I can't putter on my cars for at least 2-3 months..THanx for your input in advance.By the way I have yet to see the car but will soon !! Bob Huston 1969 Austin America 1983 Merceds 240D 184,000 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
If it is an original 616 engine with an after-market turbo, I'd be leary. That engine was not engineered for a turbo - the increased temps and pressures. There are significant internal differences between the 5 cylinder 617 turbo and non-turbo engines. Now, if it has a factory turbo'ed 617 engine, it could be a good car! If the first - the turbo lowers the value in my mind. If the later, it raises it. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:57 PM, tyler casi...@usermail.com wrote: Is this some sort of custom aftermarket turbocharging job? If so, the quality and reliability depends on how well the job was done, something nobody can tell without inspecting the vehicle themselves- but it's unlikely to be as good or reliable as a factory turbocharged vehicle. There is no real disadvantage to a factory turbocharged diesel engine that was done properly. They seem to last longer (due to cleaner combustion), have a lot more power, and get better or equal fuel efficiency. Sometimes turbocharged diesels have slightly higher oil consumption, but otherwise they have no serious burdens compared to a non-turbo. Turbocharging a diesel is a no-brainer, and win-win situation if done correctly. Nowadays the major reason a factory would spec a non-turbo engine in any vehicle is to cut manufacturing costs. Tyler rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger.. It has 140,000 miles according to my MB mechanic who also works on it said it is a beautiful car-to go for it!! Apparently this owner/friend hurt his leg on his construction equipment and ended up losing that leg.Therefore a stick is hard for him to drive and he has another Mercedes he can drive. I have a 1983 240D automatic with 184,000 which I love have to fix items like heater core, A/C, Antenna,master cylinder so on. I intend to keep it anyway but my question is people have told me to stay away from Turbochargers..What problems could I run into since I don't know much about this?? Is the Turbo removeable if there are problems?[Stupid question I presume] Are Turbos expensive upkeep ?? And lastly what is this car worth since he told me to make an offer?? I do not want to take advantage of him; this from a guy at 59 who just had a shocking stroke 2 1/2 months ago.So I can't putter on my cars for at least 2-3 months..THanx for your input in advance.By the way I have yet to see the car but will soon !! Bob Huston 1969 Austin America 1983 Merceds 240D 184,000 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don Pair of W124 300D 2.5 Turbos -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090528/b38638a9/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger. Such a modification will reduce engine life if the fuel was turned up to match the extra air going in. If the fuel wasn't turned up, then the turbo is useless, but won't do any real harm either. Since the engine has a life expectancy of hundreds of thousands of miles in normal tune, it's your decision as to whether the extra power offsets the shorter lifespan. If you like the car, and the engine is still in good shape, and you're afraid of the turbo, you could always tune the injection pump down to 70hp and it should be as reliable as any other 240D. If you do buy this car, I strongly recommend that you install an exhaust temperature gauge, preferably between the engine and the turbo. You don't want to see more than 1200 degrees F on that gauge on an ongoing basis, and any time above 1300 degrees should be very brief. http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult.asp?Type=PyrometerSeries=CockpitUnits=E http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1part=VDO%2D310953N=700+115autoview=sku All of the above advice is pointless if somebody has gone to the expense and bother of removing the 4 cylinder OM616 and replaced it with a proper five cylinder OM617 turbo engine. Mitch ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Just to play devils advocate (if you didn't notice, I like to argue...) what harm would the turbo cause that would result in premature failure? I know it would put extra stress on anything, but the whole engine and drivetrain of a 240D is severely overbuilt. Most older 240D engines I see finally die from low compression and severe blowby. With the turbo (even with some conservative fuel enrichment) the engine will burn cleaner, and have less abrasive soot to wear the pistons and rings. Perhaps the increased power would break something else, but it's also possible that it would not if the turbo system was built and tuned properly. Tyler Mitch Haley wrote: rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger. Such a modification will reduce engine life if the fuel was turned up to match the extra air going in. If the fuel wasn't turned up, then the turbo is useless, but won't do any real harm either. Since the engine has a life expectancy of hundreds of thousands of miles in normal tune, it's your decision as to whether the extra power offsets the shorter lifespan. If you like the car, and the engine is still in good shape, and you're afraid of the turbo, you could always tune the injection pump down to 70hp and it should be as reliable as any other 240D. If you do buy this car, I strongly recommend that you install an exhaust temperature gauge, preferably between the engine and the turbo. You don't want to see more than 1200 degrees F on that gauge on an ongoing basis, and any time above 1300 degrees should be very brief. http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult.asp?Type=PyrometerSeries=CockpitUnits=E http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1part=VDO%2D310953N=700+115autoview=sku All of the above advice is pointless if somebody has gone to the expense and bother of removing the 4 cylinder OM616 and replaced it with a proper five cylinder OM617 turbo engine. Mitch ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I have a book about turbocharging that I have had for years. One of the examples that they use in it is a kit that was available for the 240D. My recollection is that they said it not only improved the power but also the economy and the emissions. It ran cleaner, stronger, and more efficiently. How could that really hurt the engine much? Obiously, too much boost, and fuel, and heat etc could be detrimental but I doubt that is necessarily going to follow absolutely. I suggest that it could be a good thing if not taken too far. Randy -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]on Behalf Of tyler Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:41 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged Just to play devils advocate (if you didn't notice, I like to argue...) what harm would the turbo cause that would result in premature failure? I know it would put extra stress on anything, but the whole engine and drivetrain of a 240D is severely overbuilt. Most older 240D engines I see finally die from low compression and severe blowby. With the turbo (even with some conservative fuel enrichment) the engine will burn cleaner, and have less abrasive soot to wear the pistons and rings. Perhaps the increased power would break something else, but it's also possible that it would not if the turbo system was built and tuned properly. Tyler Mitch Haley wrote: rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger. Such a modification will reduce engine life if the fuel was turned up to match the extra air going in. If the fuel wasn't turned up, then the turbo is useless, but won't do any real harm either. Since the engine has a life expectancy of hundreds of thousands of miles in normal tune, it's your decision as to whether the extra power offsets the shorter lifespan. If you like the car, and the engine is still in good shape, and you're afraid of the turbo, you could always tune the injection pump down to 70hp and it should be as reliable as any other 240D. If you do buy this car, I strongly recommend that you install an exhaust temperature gauge, preferably between the engine and the turbo. You don't want to see more than 1200 degrees F on that gauge on an ongoing basis, and any time above 1300 degrees should be very brief. http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult.asp?Type=PyrometerSeries=CockpitUnits=E http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1part=VDO%2D310953N=700+115autoview=sku All of the above advice is pointless if somebody has gone to the expense and bother of removing the 4 cylinder OM616 and replaced it with a proper five cylinder OM617 turbo engine. Mitch ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
I suddenly miss Marshall (again). Check for melted pistons. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger. -- The only absolute is that everything is relative. --Henri de Saint Simon -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090528/472fe1db/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
There was no factory 240D Turbo. So it's either an engine change to a 617.95 engine or an add on. The former is OK, I guess, if you want to load the clutch/tranny with torque it was not designed for. ( I'd do it, but I'm as much a mule as you are an arguer (c: ) The drivetrains are over-engineered, but not that far, IMO. But if you're gentle it might be OK for a coupla hundred K or so. The add on scares me, as you are wandering way outside design parameters. The pistons in the turbo cars were oil cooled from underneath, with a squirter etc. to help dissipate the heat. NA engines do not have this feature, and it's necessary if you actually use the turbo, or you will burn holes in the tops of the pistons. This falls into discussions of fuel increases and boost pressure, and could go on all night. I personally would not consider trying to push a 616 engine any farther than it's already set up for, it's just not worth the risk/reward ratio. And I am pretty open to doing all kinds of things with these engines (c: .. If it's an add on, I'd un-add it. You can probably sell it on Ebay. When you see the car, most of this will become much clearer. Until then we're all just guessing. I am gonna quit guessing and go get a beer.. RH rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger.. It has 140,000 miles according to my MB mechanic who also works on it said it is a beautiful car-to go for it!! Apparently this owner/friend hurt his leg on his construction equipment and ended up losing that leg.Therefore a stick is hard for him to drive and he has another Mercedes he can drive. I have a 1983 240D automatic with 184,000 which I love have to fix items like heater core, A/C, Antenna,master cylinder so on. I intend to keep it anyway but my question is people have told me to stay away from Turbochargers..What problems could I run into since I don't know much about this?? Is the Turbo removeable if there are problems?[Stupid question I presume] Are Turbos expensive upkeep ?? And lastly what is this car worth since he told me to make an offer?? I do not want to take advantage of him; this from a guy at 59 who just had a shocking stroke 2 1/2 months ago.So I can't putter on my cars for at least 2-3 months..THanx for your input in advance.By the way I have yet to see the car but will soon !! Bob Huston 1969 Austin America 1983 Merceds 240D 184,000 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Richard wrote: If it's an add on, I'd un-add it. You can probably sell it on Ebay. I thought there was a guy in your neighborhood that sold add-on turbo. Perhaps it is in the Hotlanta area - but I recall a guy years ago that people recommended for quite reasonable design for turbo add-on - maybe my memory is faulty. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Reeves Callaway did a conversion in the late 1970's or 1980. It was noticeably slower than a 300SD, but IIRC it was as fast or faster than the 300D NA of the period. I think when the 1982 300D turbo came out it made the Callaway setup irrelevant. When I saw a test in Road and Track or Car and Driver (can't remember for sure which one) I got the impression that Recaro front seats were part of the package. If it's got aftermarket seats in it, it's probably a Callaway, and it might even be collectible. (but not as valuable as a Callaway twin turbo Corvette I'm sure) Now there's something we might be missing out on. Tom H. seemed to know more about Corvettes than most of us here. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Mitch Haley wrote: Reeves Callaway did a conversion in the late 1970's or 1980. Nope, it was concurrent with the turbo 300D. Here's the Motor Trend article, as I posted to the list in 2005. I was a bit surprised to find my email message on the net here: http://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg06053.html Source: Motor Trend, May 1983 v35 p76(2). Full Text COPYRIGHT Petersen Publishing Company 1983 Diesel With a Difference Throw a leg over the bolster and slip into the Recaro's palm. Feel the soft glove leather and fondle, please, the buttons for the contour bladders. Then lock your hands on the 3-spoke wheel, using the leverage to snuggle your buttocks to the seat. Pull the shoulder belt across your lap and hook it home. Twist the ignition and watch the gauges snap to attention. The lights burn as steadily as coals through the dash panel and the machine steals a few seconds to ready itself for business. Time is measured by the pumping in your chest and the wait seems much too long . . . Okay, okay, stop twitching. You weren't waiting for an electric pump to stoke the Webers, you were indulging another electronic function, the one that supplies juice to the machine's uhhhmmm, aaa, pre-heat system, the kind of system that brings life to a--yes!--diesel! (Fade to black. This little psychodrama was brought to you by Callaway Turbo Sytems in Lyme, Connecticut.) Standing in the silence of the marrow-cracking January cold was Reeves Callaway's sleepy 240D Mercedes, the unwitting cohort in a project meant to freshen his perspective somewhere between twin-turbo 928 brain-busters and the midnight shriek of the 4-cam Cosworth on his overworked dynamometer. Callaway was fully aware that the 240D has been the subject of hotair experimentation by others, but the Mercedes was largely unknown to him. He found something special. He found a wonderfully over-built automobile, a product created for the outer limits of the autobahn. But he also found the 240 to be a first cousin to Torpor, the pavement sloth, and sluggish automobiles have no place in Callaway's calculations. Perhaps more impressive than the M-B's bedrock physique was the way it handled, even with the comfort-prone Continental radials. Enough potential, reasoned Callaway, for certain owners to enjoy the car from a driver's standpoint. Everything in sight exuded indestructibility, so could the inner engine be any less substantial? His thought was to make the car respond at low speed and undergo maximum pressure by the time it reached 60 mph. As Callaway puts it, The conversion is a simple one and diesels are hard to hurt. The diesel benefits from a turbocharger more than a gasoline engine does, and it operates at an inherently lower exhaust gas temperature. The strain that a gasoline powerplant finds with turbocharging is just not realized in the diesel. The excess air generated by the turbo cleanses the combustion chamber, recovers heat energy, and yields a boost in horsepower.' Underhood provision for the installation is prodigious. Despite the 4-cylinder's stock proportions, the distance from engine to fenderwell ensures proper clearance and ventilation for a hot turbo housing. Since the standard equipment is well engineered, Callaway's Turbo Twins,' Don Miller and Kelly Parsons, preserved as much of it as possible. For men of their experience, the 240 conversion was pure child's play. Rather than create an exhaust manifold of their own, they simply cobbled a new one, adding a stanchion on which to mount the turbo housing and modifying it further with the addition of a wastegate. Then they fabricated an elbow to link the turbo to the intake manifold; pre-production samples were tube steel, but the production piece in every conversion is cast aluminum. At this point, an aftermarket oil cooler would have been included, but the 240 already had a good one. Aeroquip stainless steel lines complete its integration with the turbocharger. The brushed-aluminum air cleaner was moved forward a few inches to finish the job. The exhaust system has extremely low back-pressure (about 4 psi), so it, too, was left intact. (If there is need, Callaway will bolt up the even larger pipes from a 300D.) By the boss' estimation, the result of this manipulation is a 45% power increase, boosting the 240D's 67 hp to an estimated 95. Fuel consumption for this vehicle with automatic transmission is 28 mpg, which the Turbo 240 has dutifully retained during 12,000 miles of operation. The automatic transmission has lost none of its harmony, and it shifts as smoothly as the day it hit the pike. But the 240's 0-60 ramble has been reduced by nearly 5 sec to the respectable vicinity of 15.5 sec, attesting to the turbo's healthy contribution to low-end performance. Applying heavy leather initiates the hotair rush almost immediately and gives the driver a feeling of muscle in reserve. Even without exciting the turbocharger, Callaway finds that
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
tyler wrote: Just to play devils advocate (if you didn't notice, I like to argue...) what harm would the turbo cause that would result in premature failure? I know it would put extra stress on anything, but the whole engine and drivetrain of a 240D is severely overbuilt. Most older 240D engines I see finally die from low compression and severe blowby. With the turbo (even with some conservative fuel enrichment) the engine will burn cleaner, and have less abrasive soot to wear the pistons and rings. Perhaps the increased power would break something else, but it's also possible that it would not if the turbo system was built and tuned properly. It is not in the interest of long term survival of the engine to put a turbo system like the 5 cylinders have. Both the turbo and normally aspirated engines don't make more power because they are at the thermal limits. If more power is generated, so is more heat. And so the pistons especially are likely to melt. Unless the _driver_ has the necessary gauges (exhaust gas temp is the most important) and takes the responsibility to be the safety limit. MB decided most drivers could not be so trusted, and so tuned the car to be safe. But the factory turbo is limited at aprox 15 psi (lb/in^2) (1 bar). That is _not_ the only choice for a turbo!! If a 240D were fitted with a 3-4 psi turbo (0.2 bar), there would be little increase in piston melting danger - especially with a EGT gauge. Driveability would improve (how much, I don't know), but certainly noticeable at higher altitudes. Or, ceramic coat the pistons, put a big intercooler on, modify the oil flow, and rig a turbo set to 45 psi (3 bar). Then figure on rebuilding the engine ever few months. *grin* --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Wonko the Sane don.b...@gmail.com writes: I suddenly miss Marshall (again). Check for melted pistons. You mean MELTED pistons Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
Mitch Haley wrote: I was a bit surprised to find my email message on the net here: http://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg06053.html Which is why you must choose your words carefully when posting to an email list. Such posts can outlive you or come back to haunt you (Banned is NOT archived, except by subscription, I believe) Rick Knoble ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
That would be an aftermarket turbo job, engine wont last very long with that on there. rdeaf...@aol.com wrote: Hey Guys, I have a chance to offer on somebody I know who has a 1982 Black 240D manual transmission that has turbocharger.. It has 140,000 miles according to my MB mechanic who also works on it said it is a beautiful car-to go for it!! Apparently this owner/friend hurt his leg on his construction equipment and ended up losing that leg.Therefore a stick is hard for him to drive and he has another Mercedes he can drive. I have a 1983 240D automatic with 184,000 which I love have to fix items like heater core, A/C, Antenna,master cylinder so on. I intend to keep it anyway but my question is people have told me to stay away from Turbochargers..What problems could I run into since I don't know much about this?? Is the Turbo removeable if there are problems?[Stupid question I presume] Are Turbos expensive upkeep ?? And lastly what is this car worth since he told me to make an offer?? I do not want to take advantage of him; this from a guy at 59 who just had a shocking stroke 2 1/2 months ago.So I can't putter on my cars for at least 2-3 months..THanx for your input in advance.By the way I have yet to see the car but will soon !! Bob Huston 1969 Austin America 1983 Merceds 240D 184,000 [I'm a Rusty buyer !!] **Cooking Dinner For Two? Sign Up Get Immediate Member-Only Savings. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222652750x1201460983/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215225797%3B37274671%3Bq%3Fhttp:%2 F%2Frecipes.cookingfor2.pillsbury.com%2F%3FESRC%3D934) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090528/d74d1711/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.43/2139 - Release Date: 05/28/09 08:10:00 -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090528/d8cec203/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes 240D Manual Turbocharged
That is the service I use to create a archive database that can be searched. Mitch Haley wrote: Mitch Haley wrote: Reeves Callaway did a conversion in the late 1970's or 1980. Nope, it was concurrent with the turbo 300D. Here's the Motor Trend article, as I posted to the list in 2005. I was a bit surprised to find my email message on the net here: http://www.mail-archive.com/mercedes@okiebenz.com/msg06053.html -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
