Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Let's find out.  You never know until you try.
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From:  Curley McLain via Mercedes
> 
> Herr Mann,
> 
> You forgot one detail:  Laws of the US of A don't apply to those who subscribe
> to a certain party, denoted by the jackass.  (By decree of
> themselves)
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:31:39 -0800 G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Well... now, that's a thought The law is very specific in it's
> punishment wording.. seems a case could be made from the present
> actions by those in control of the cities, counties, and in the case of
> California... the state

Ipso facto, isn't it?


> Moonbeam Brown would look all stylish in Prison Orange and leg irons...

As someone commented on the global warming list I'm on, "Moonbeam is
scientific evidence that long term abuse of LSD does have psychological
consequences."


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

The President "could" impose Martial Law upon every sanctuary city, county,
state & municipality and arrest all officials & employees in them, for
violating Federal Law shown in detail here. https://www.law.cornell.
edu/uscode/text/8/1324


Sure to cause great wailing and gnashing of teeth among the privileged and
self appointed.


On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Nice thought!  Where do we sign up to help?
>
> G Mann via Mercedes 
>> December 11, 2017 at 10:31 PM
>> Well... now, that's a thought The law is very specific in it's
>> punishment wording.. seems a case could be made from the present actions
>> by
>> those in control of the cities, counties, and in the case of California...
>> the state Moonbeam Brown would look all stylish in Prison Orange and
>> leg irons...
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Nice thought!  Where do we sign up to help?


G Mann via Mercedes 
December 11, 2017 at 10:31 PM
Well... now, that's a thought The law is very specific in it's
punishment wording.. seems a case could be made from the present 
actions by

those in control of the cities, counties, and in the case of California...
the state Moonbeam Brown would look all stylish in Prison Orange and
leg irons...



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Well... now, that's a thought The law is very specific in it's
punishment wording.. seems a case could be made from the present actions by
those in control of the cities, counties, and in the case of California...
the state Moonbeam Brown would look all stylish in Prison Orange and
leg irons...

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:55:54 -0800 G Mann via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > Current Federal law:
> > https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
>
> So, what if Federal Marshalls went into a Sanctuary City and started
> arresting people from the Mayor on down?
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

there'd be incessant shrieking, accompanied by endless lawsuits against 
those who had the gall to try to arrest those of the jackass 
persuasion.  (See my prior post about applicability of law to those of 
the jackass persuasion)



Craig via Mercedes 
December 11, 2017 at 10:28 PM
On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:55:54 -0800 G Mann via Mercedes

So, what if Federal Marshalls went into a Sanctuary City and started
arresting people from the Mayor on down?


Craig



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:55:54 -0800 G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Current Federal law:
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324
> 
> 
> 
> 

So, what if Federal Marshalls went into a Sanctuary City and started
arresting people from the Mayor on down?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Ayyyhyup

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Herr Mann,
>
> You forgot one detail:  Laws of the US of A don't apply to those who
> subscribe to a certain party, denoted by the jackass.  (By decree of
> themselves)
>
> G Mann via Mercedes 
>> December 11, 2017 at 9:55 PM
>> Current Federal law:
>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Herr Mann,

You forgot one detail:  Laws of the US of A don't apply to those who 
subscribe to a certain party, denoted by the jackass.  (By decree of 
themselves)



G Mann via Mercedes 
December 11, 2017 at 9:55 PM
Current Federal law:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324






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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

THat'd be a good start, like 20,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean.

I suspect his lily livered compatriots will never pass it.  They will, 
however, continue to be worthless liars who ignore the people who they 
were elected to represent.



Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
December 11, 2017 at 9:01 PM
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/04/rep-rokita-proposes-bill-threatening-jail-time-1-million-fine-sanctuary-city-leaders/919546001/



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Current Federal law:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324





On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/
> 04/rep-rokita-proposes-bill-threatening-jail-time-1-
> million-fine-sanctuary-city-leaders/919546001/
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/04/rep-rokita-proposes-bill-threatening-jail-time-1-million-fine-sanctuary-city-leaders/919546001/

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

yeah,  that's why it took a cop here 16 shots to "end the threat to him" 
from an unarmed drugged up kid that just ran his dad's pickup into a tree.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
December 3, 2017 at 5:06 PM
I've probably told this story before but...Years ago we used to shoot 
a lot of metallic silhouette, I was never that good but the juniors 
class had mostly casual shooters so I did pretty well.One time the 
police were using our range during our normal practice time. We waited 
around to see if they'd quit before it got too dark for us to shoot. 
They were shooting man sized metallic targets from 10 meters and 
hitting about 3 in 10. We were shooting targets about the size of a 
dinner plate at 1000 meters and when I was doing well I could do 4 in 
10 with an open sight pistol.
One of the guys commented that he "heard a long more bangs than 
dings", metallic targets ring when you hit them. The cop retorted 
"Think you can do better?" my friend replies "he can" and points at 
me, the 15 year old idiot kid. The cop gives me one of their guns to 
shoot but I want to do it at 100 meters. So they all pull back and I 
proceed to put 8 shots into the target (the first two were finding the 
elevation) and the cops throw us off the range for "being unsafe".We 
joked for years that we were "unsafe for the police ego."
I don't really have a lot of respect for the average LEO's ability to 
shoot.

-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Well we certainly have crooked persecutors running loose at the highest 
levels of the DOJ.  Some of those guys are so incredibly dirty, it is 
unbelievable.  The dud that brought down arthur Anderson comes to mind.  
I was never a fan of old arthur, but where does Arthur go to get his 
reputation and business back?





Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
December 3, 2017 at 12:06 PM

It's usually due to criminal malfeasance of prosecutors and/or cops.
I think some cops are crooked and most prosecutors are crooked. And 
many judges used to be crooked prosecutors. Greg might have another 
view of that subject.


In this famous case local to me, a crooked prosecutor instructed a cop 
to re-do a video analysis timeline so that it no longer proved 
innocence. But how a lack of proof of innocence resulted in conviction 
is indeed a question for the judge and jury. The prosecutor was fired, 
not prosecuted for suborning of perjury. The perjuring cop is 
comfortably enjoying his pension in Pennsylvania.

And I think poor Claude finally learned that you never talk to cops.
http://justicedenied.org/issue/issue_42/michigan_jd42.pdf


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Agreed, but there ARE many cases when the guilt is clearly established.  
Chuckie manson comes to mind.  Not worth the cost to keep alive one 
year, much less all the years we paid to keep that piece of crap breathing.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
December 3, 2017 at 11:57 AM
The, to me obvious, problem with the death penalty is the frequency 
with which honest people are locked up for crimes they didn't commit. 
Poor quality defense, bad judges and sometimes just bad luck. Put 
those people to death and there's blood on somebody's hands...


Curt



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

All true, Herr Mann.   Stuff like this leads to more severe punishment 
IF the goobers react.  If they don't react, then it leads to vigilante 
actions.





G Mann via Mercedes 
December 3, 2017 at 11:34 AM
Under the "Inviolate Rule of Unintended Consequence" the actions of this
illegal criminal, and the reactions of the California legal system, will
cause a strong wave of public reaction which evolves into an end result
which will be, in full and lasting effect, much more harsh than currently
imagined by the illegal population and those who believe they are
supporting it.

Regardless of the individual Citizens position, we are already seeing
strong emotions expressed... and evidence those emotions will continue to
actions.
My Prophet robes are at the cleaners this week, so I can not predict
exactly how far the pendulum will swing... or it's final direction... but
it has started swinging..
​
At this point, the only certainty is, the Judge is not a Mercedes owner.



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I love Mandarin oranges, even though they may be seedy.  They are available
at Great Wall in the DMV area.

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:22:49 -0500 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > He was not.  He spoke Mandarin, as I’m mildly conversational in it, so
> > I engaged him in a rather halting conversation to be friendly.  From
> > what I could tell he was from mainland China.
>
> About whom are you talking? I thought the thread was about the fellow in
> San Francisco ...
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:22:49 -0500 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
 wrote:

> He was not.  He spoke Mandarin, as I’m mildly conversational in it, so
> I engaged him in a rather halting conversation to be friendly.  From
> what I could tell he was from mainland China.

About whom are you talking? I thought the thread was about the fellow in
San Francisco ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

Come on Jim, the illegals can use all the weapons that are allowed to the 
citizens of the UK, Canada, Australia, and other Peaceable nations.

clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Dec 3, 2017, at 11:03 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Come to the USA, where you are not allowed to defend yourself unless you
> are a citizen!
> 
> -- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

LEO training and qualification varies a lot. My requirements were quarterly 
qualification with a reasonable level of difficulty, with some units receiving 
"practice ammo". IIRC NYPD was annual, and little in the way of resources 
provided. I recall qualifying at a range when NYPD were transitioning from 
revolvers to pistols. I was watching them during a break, and they were doing a 
string involving a reload. It took them FOREVER, much longer than it took me to 
reload a revolver. Unless they shot on their own time their skill level would 
have been...not too good.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff 
via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 2:19 PM
To: Mercedes List
Cc: Dan Penoff
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

Everyone at mine had fired a gun, but they did ask, which was a little 
disconcerting to me.  What I did find mildly humorous was that the guy sitting 
next to me, who was a fairly new corrections officer, had to be shown proper 
hold and stance.  Not sure what kind of training these people get, but from 
what I saw I wasn’t impressed.  Looked like he had been taught the Weaver 
stance, which I thought was outdated and out of favor compared to the isosceles 
stance.

I was always taught that in the case of personal protection the Weaver stance 
was a bad thing, as it made the shot from a perp a line through both lungs and 
the heart (center of mass.)

-D


> On Dec 3, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't know about that, but when I did my CWP class there was a young woman 
> there who at the live fire part had to be 1) shown a gun, 2) shown how it 
> worked, and 3) shown how to use it.
> 
> That all was a bit concerning, but one hoped if she did get her permit and 
> bought a weapon she would take some instruction on the thing.
> 
> --FT
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I've probably told this story before but...Years ago we used to shoot a lot of 
metallic silhouette, I was never that good but the juniors class had mostly 
casual shooters so I did pretty well.One time the police were using our range 
during our normal practice time. We waited around to see if they'd quit before 
it got too dark for us to shoot. They were shooting man sized metallic targets 
from 10 meters and hitting about 3 in 10. We were shooting targets about the 
size of a dinner plate at 1000 meters and when I was doing well I could do 4 in 
10 with an open sight pistol.
One of the guys commented that he "heard a long more bangs than dings", 
metallic targets ring when you hit them. The cop retorted "Think you can do 
better?" my friend replies "he can" and points at me, the 15 year old idiot 
kid. The cop gives me one of their guns to shoot but I want to do it at 100 
meters. So they all pull back and I proceed to put 8 shots into the target (the 
first two were finding the elevation) and the cops throw us off the range for 
"being unsafe".We joked for years that we were "unsafe for the police ego."
I don't really have a lot of respect for the average LEO's ability to shoot.
-Curt
 

On Sunday, December 3, 2017, 5:59:54 PM EST, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 In Florida a corrections officer is considered an LEO and has arrest powers.  
As a result, they are supposed to have similar training as any other LEO.  I 
would assume that includes firearm training.  That’s not to say they would be 
carrying a weapon on duty necessarily.

Interestingly, parole and probation officers are considered “certified” LEOs 
and can carry firearms.

-D


> On Dec 3, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> In my limited experience, corrections officers either rarely or never carry a 
> weapon, of any kind.
> -- 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

In Florida a corrections officer is considered an LEO and has arrest powers.  
As a result, they are supposed to have similar training as any other LEO.  I 
would assume that includes firearm training.  That’s not to say they would be 
carrying a weapon on duty necessarily.

Interestingly, parole and probation officers are considered “certified” LEOs 
and can carry firearms.

-D


> On Dec 3, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> In my limited experience, corrections officers either rarely or never carry a 
> weapon, of any kind.
> -- 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

In my limited experience, corrections officers either rarely or never carry a 
weapon, of any kind.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

He was not.  He spoke Mandarin, as I’m mildly conversational in it, so I 
engaged him in a rather halting conversation to be friendly.  From what I could 
tell he was from mainland China.

-D

> On Dec 3, 2017, at 5:18 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> My guess would be that he was Puerto Rican. Since Puerto Ricans can come and 
> go to the U.S. and move here if they so desire IIRC, they may be subject to 
> the same rights and requirements as U.S. citizens. Puerto Rico is a territory 
> of the U.S., isn't it?
> 
> Gerry
> Gerry
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Everyone at mine had fired a gun, but they did ask, which was a little 
disconcerting to me.  What I did find mildly humorous was that the guy sitting 
next to me, who was a fairly new corrections officer, had to be shown proper 
hold and stance.  Not sure what kind of training these people get, but from 
what I saw I wasn’t impressed.  Looked like he had been taught the Weaver 
stance, which I thought was outdated and out of favor compared to the isosceles 
stance.

I was always taught that in the case of personal protection the Weaver stance 
was a bad thing, as it made the shot from a perp a line through both lungs and 
the heart (center of mass.)

-D


> On Dec 3, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I don't know about that, but when I did my CWP class there was a young woman 
> there who at the live fire part had to be 1) shown a gun, 2) shown how it 
> worked, and 3) shown how to use it.
> 
> That all was a bit concerning, but one hoped if she did get her permit and 
> bought a weapon she would take some instruction on the thing.
> 
> --FT
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

 
> > I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement 
> > in Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five 
> > people there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear 
> > command of the English language.  As a result of this they had a 
> > family member present to translate for them.
> > 
> > They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
> > 
> > Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not 
> > their first language, should they have been allowed to participate, 
> > and ultimately obtain their concealed carry license?
> > 
> > Discuss, please.
> > 
> > -D

My guess would be that he was Puerto Rican. Since Puerto Ricans can come and go 
to the U.S. and move here if they so desire IIRC, they may be subject to the 
same rights and requirements as U.S. citizens. Puerto Rico is a territory of 
the U.S., isn't it?

Gerry
Gerry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I don't know about that, but when I did my CWP class there was a young 
woman there who at the live fire part had to be 1) shown a gun, 2) shown 
how it worked, and 3) shown how to use it.


That all was a bit concerning, but one hoped if she did get her permit 
and bought a weapon she would take some instruction on the thing.


--FT


On 12/2/17 3:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
the feelings of the group as a whole:

I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people there 
was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the English 
language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to translate 
for them.

They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).

Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
obtain their concealed carry license?

Discuss, please.

-D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

I seem to recall that there was a change within the last decade to allow 
firearms to LPRs. I have a friend who is Canadian,( a retired design engineer 
for Freightliner...MB content!) who has a technical interest in the M1911 
pistol. I recall telling him of a change which would allow him to purchase one.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott 
Ritchey via Mercedes
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 7:11 PM
To: 'Mercedes Discussion List'
Cc: Scott Ritchey
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

I assume a person could take the concealed carry class even if not qualified 
for a CCL/P.  Here (NC) one must take and pass the concealed carry class as a 
prerequisite to even apply for the CCP.  
I was always understood that 2A applied only to citizens.  But I reviewed the 
100 citizenship test questions recently and they implied 2A applies to all US 
persons irrespective of citizenship.  The new (2016) ATF 4473 implies US 
citizenship is not mandatory; I think it was mandatory on the old form.  Maybe 
an Obama administration change.  So I'm unsure.
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan 
> Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 3:55 PM
> To: Mercedes List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles
> 
> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious 
> as to the feelings of the group as a whole:
> 
> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement 
> in Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five 
> people there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear 
> command of the English language.  As a result of this they had a 
> family member present to translate for them.
> 
> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
> 
> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not 
> their first language, should they have been allowed to participate, 
> and ultimately obtain their concealed carry license?
> 
> Discuss, please.
> 
> -D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

>
> In recent decades the authorized weapons went to DA only to decrease the
> possibility of accidental discharge and subsequent liability. Thanks
> lawyers!


You are thus required to use a weapon with which it is harder to hit your
intended target!  Yeah, GOD idea.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Come to the USA, where you are not allowed to defend yourself unless you
are a citizen!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

He was charged with involuntary manslaughter but the jury (in the Peoples' 
Republic of CA) found him not guilty on that and more serious charges (M1 and 
M2).

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Larry
> Turner via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 12:13 PM
> 
> I haven't read each of the multiple posts on this thread but I can't
> understand why he wasn't/isn't charged with Involuntary Manslaughter?
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Under Federal gun laws possession of a firearm (even a single bullet) by a 
felon is up to 15 years.  It doesn’t matter how it came into the felon's 
possession.

> -Original Message-
> From: Larry  Turner via Mercedes
> 
> and regardless of what rights he was given once the DOJ and various lawyers
> tried to foist upon him, being a Felon makes it very illegal for him to
> "have access to..." firearms.
> LarryT
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

You would think. But what fraction of the American people are even aware of 
this case?

> -Original Message-
> From: G Mann
> via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 12:35 PM

> Under the "Inviolate Rule of Unintended Consequence"  the actions of this
> illegal criminal, and the reactions of the California legal system, will
> cause a strong wave of public reaction which evolves into an end result
> which will be, in full and lasting effect, much more harsh than currently
> imagined by the illegal population and those who believe they are supporting
> it.
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

Ever since I was about four or five, Dad always told us there were two groups 
of people you should never talk to (without the appropriate assistance being 
present, of course).  Those were law enforcement and the media/press.

He did emphasize that law enforcement are the good guys, but there could be 
times when opening your mouth could get you involved in things you had no 
business in, hence the rationale for not talking unless you had a 
representative present.

He never elaborated on the press thing, but having a friend who is a 
professional PR guy who is very, very good that I also worked with, I can 
understand his aversion for the press.  Those people can spin stuff in ways 
that are nothing short of amazing. 

-D

> On Dec 3, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On December 3, 2017 at 12:57 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> The, to me obvious, problem with the death penalty is the frequency with 
>> which honest people are locked up for crimes they didn't commit. Poor 
>> quality defense, bad judges and sometimes just bad luck. Put those people to 
>> death and there's blood on somebody's hands...
> 
> It's usually due to criminal malfeasance of prosecutors and/or cops. 
> I think some cops are crooked and most prosecutors are crooked. And many 
> judges used to be crooked prosecutors. Greg might have another view of that 
> subject.
> 
> In this famous case local to me, a crooked prosecutor instructed a cop to 
> re-do a video analysis timeline so that it no longer proved innocence. But 
> how a lack of proof of innocence resulted in conviction is indeed a question 
> for the judge and jury. The prosecutor was fired, not prosecuted for 
> suborning of perjury. The perjuring cop is comfortably enjoying his pension 
> in Pennsylvania. 
> And I think poor Claude finally learned that you never talk to cops. 
> http://justicedenied.org/issue/issue_42/michigan_jd42.pdf
> 
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 3, 2017 at 12:57 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> The, to me obvious, problem with the death penalty is the frequency with 
> which honest people are locked up for crimes they didn't commit. Poor quality 
> defense, bad judges and sometimes just bad luck. Put those people to death 
> and there's blood on somebody's hands...

It's usually due to criminal malfeasance of prosecutors and/or cops. 
I think some cops are crooked and most prosecutors are crooked. And many judges 
used to be crooked prosecutors. Greg might have another view of that subject.

In this famous case local to me, a crooked prosecutor instructed a cop to re-do 
a video analysis timeline so that it no longer proved innocence. But how a lack 
of proof of innocence resulted in conviction is indeed a question for the judge 
and jury. The prosecutor was fired, not prosecuted for suborning of perjury. 
The perjuring cop is comfortably enjoying his pension in Pennsylvania. 
And I think poor Claude finally learned that you never talk to cops. 
http://justicedenied.org/issue/issue_42/michigan_jd42.pdf

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 3, 2017 at 12:33 PM Mountain Man via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why hasn't he been punished with felony?  7-times.  Felony may must be
> the new fake-news dream label?

He was convicted of 7 felonies before the killing. 
Who knows how many felonies were plead down to misdemeanors over the years. 
He was also deported 5 times, which is apparently like live trapping a mouse 
and releasing it on the porch, only to trap it in the kitchen again next week. 

He was wanted on a warrant from Texas and SanFran was obstructing justice by 
refusing to let Texas have him at the time of the killing, which is what people 
are so upset about. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The, to me obvious, problem with the death penalty is the frequency with which 
honest people are locked up for crimes they didn't commit. Poor quality 
defense, bad judges and sometimes just bad luck. Put those people to death and 
there's blood on somebody's hands...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Larry Turner via 
Mercedes wrote:   I haven't read each of the multiple 
posts on this thread but I can't 
understand why he wasn't/isn't charged with Involuntary Manslaughter?


Also, I would have hoped the prosecutor, with their vast resources, 
would have tested the bullet that killed the young woman to the same 
extent the defense had so they could have known if there was indeed a 
ricochet.  That seems to answer the question of Intent?  As it is, 
Involuntary Manslaughter carries a pretty steep sentence .

I know there are many who would like to see the shooter killed / put to 
death but that can never happen.  We have murders committed all over the 
country and the death sentence is not used for various reasons.

BTW, while I like the idea of keeping someone who commits heinous crimes 
behind bars, the thought of American taxpayer's footing the bill is as 
unsettling as many of their crimes!  If we could get it past the SCOTUS, 
some kind of hard labor might be workable.  Maybe cleaning highways with 
a toothbrush?  Anyway, it doesn't matter really matter as SCOTUS will 
never let any kind of  appropriate Punishment  to happen.

LarryT
91 300D


On 12/1/2017 2:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
> shoot her.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> no
>>
>> This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
>>
>> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>>> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
>>> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
>>> multiple victims?
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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>>
>>
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>
>

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Under the "Inviolate Rule of Unintended Consequence"  the actions of this
illegal criminal, and the reactions of the California legal system, will
cause a strong wave of public reaction which evolves into an end result
which will be, in full and lasting effect, much more harsh than currently
imagined by the illegal population and those who believe they are
supporting it.

Regardless of the individual Citizens position, we are already seeing
strong emotions expressed... and evidence those emotions will continue to
actions.
My Prophet robes are at the cleaners this week, so I can not predict
exactly how far the pendulum will swing... or it's final direction... but
it has started swinging..
​
At this point, the only certainty is, the Judge is not a Mercedes owner.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I haven't read each of the multiple posts on this thread but I can't
> understand why he wasn't/isn't charged with Involuntary Manslaughter?
>
>
> Also, I would have hoped the prosecutor, with their vast resources, would
> have tested the bullet that killed the young woman to the same extent the
> defense had so they could have known if there was indeed a ricochet.  That
> seems to answer the question of Intent?  As it is, Involuntary Manslaughter
> carries a pretty steep sentence .
>
> I know there are many who would like to see the shooter killed / put to
> death but that can never happen.  We have murders committed all over the
> country and the death sentence is not used for various reasons.
>
> BTW, while I like the idea of keeping someone who commits heinous crimes
> behind bars, the thought of American taxpayer's footing the bill is as
> unsettling as many of their crimes!  If we could get it past the SCOTUS,
> some kind of hard labor might be workable.  Maybe cleaning highways with a
> toothbrush?  Anyway, it doesn't matter really matter as SCOTUS will never
> let any kind of  appropriate Punishment  to happen.
>
> LarryT
> 91 300D
>
>
> On 12/1/2017 2:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
>> shoot her.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>> no
>>>
>>> This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
>>>
>>> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>>>
 December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
 Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
 multiple victims?

 ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>
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>>>
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

LarryT wrote:
> I haven't read each of the multiple posts on this thread but I can't
> understand why he wasn't/isn't charged with Involuntary Manslaughter?

Why hasn't he been punished with felony?  7-times.  Felony may must be
the new fake-news dream label?
Tell me of other felons walking the street near you.  This wreaks narcocracy.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Mitch wrote:
> Allowing for the fact that he's a 7 time felon trying to avoid getting a life 
> sentence, and probably lying through his teeth anyway...

Doesn't this begin to look like a party to the narcocracy?  Not unlike
the Clinton affairs.  The gov't has always been in the biz of pushing
crime whether it be prohibition, now war on drugs - it is all
narcocracy.  How can you - yes, you - get away from one felony much
less 7 felonies and roam the street?  Hence, narcocracy participant or
shill.  This wreaks of false flag narcocracy.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

and regardless of what rights he was given once the DOJ and various lawyers tried to 
foist upon him, being a Felon makes it very illegal for him to "have access 
to..." firearms.
LarryT


On 12/3/2017 8:50 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On December 2, 2017 at 5:21 PM Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
 wrote:


2. The weapon was a Sig P239, which is available in several calibers and 3 flavors: 
DA/SA, DAO, and "DAK trigger system developed for law enforcement" I believe 
the DAK Sig is the one my son owns, a twin for his USCG duty weapon. It has a 6.5 lb. 
long trigger pull, hardly a hair-trigger which could be readily discharged by accident.

Allowing for the fact that he's a 7 time felon trying to avoid getting a life 
sentence, and probably lying through his teeth anyway, I think his original 
story was the closest to the truth we'll ever get out of him, far more truthful 
than the story his lawyer gave him later. The original story was he was 
shooting, but not shooting at her specifically. It might even be true.

As for the claim that he didn't seek out unlawful possession of a stolen pistol 
and just found it in a paper bag: And donkeys fly, too.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

I haven't read each of the multiple posts on this thread but I can't 
understand why he wasn't/isn't charged with Involuntary Manslaughter?



Also, I would have hoped the prosecutor, with their vast resources, 
would have tested the bullet that killed the young woman to the same 
extent the defense had so they could have known if there was indeed a 
ricochet.  That seems to answer the question of Intent?  As it is, 
Involuntary Manslaughter carries a pretty steep sentence .


I know there are many who would like to see the shooter killed / put to 
death but that can never happen.  We have murders committed all over the 
country and the death sentence is not used for various reasons.


BTW, while I like the idea of keeping someone who commits heinous crimes 
behind bars, the thought of American taxpayer's footing the bill is as 
unsettling as many of their crimes!  If we could get it past the SCOTUS, 
some kind of hard labor might be workable.  Maybe cleaning highways with 
a toothbrush?  Anyway, it doesn't matter really matter as SCOTUS will 
never let any kind of  appropriate Punishment  to happen.


LarryT
91 300D


On 12/1/2017 2:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
shoot her.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


no

This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 

December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
multiple victims?


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 2, 2017 at 5:21 PM Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 2. The weapon was a Sig P239, which is available in several calibers and 3 
> flavors: DA/SA, DAO, and "DAK trigger system developed for law enforcement" I 
> believe the DAK Sig is the one my son owns, a twin for his USCG duty weapon. 
> It has a 6.5 lb. long trigger pull, hardly a hair-trigger which could be 
> readily discharged by accident.

Allowing for the fact that he's a 7 time felon trying to avoid getting a life 
sentence, and probably lying through his teeth anyway, I think his original 
story was the closest to the truth we'll ever get out of him, far more truthful 
than the story his lawyer gave him later. The original story was he was 
shooting, but not shooting at her specifically. It might even be true. 

As for the claim that he didn't seek out unlawful possession of a stolen pistol 
and just found it in a paper bag: And donkeys fly, too. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 2, 2017 at 10:11 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was always understood that 2A applied only to citizens.  But I reviewed the 
> 100 citizenship test questions recently and they implied 2A applies to all US 
> persons irrespective of citizenship.  The new (2016) ATF 4473 implies US 
> citizenship is not mandatory; I think it was mandatory on the old form.  
> Maybe an Obama administration change.  So I'm unsure.

There was news this fall about some college students, mostly Chinese, who 
bought hunting licenses so that they'd be allowed to possess firearms under 
federal law without being residents. Then the state they went to school in quit 
issuing hunting licenses to non resident aliens, they unknowingly bought more 
hunting licenses, the state came down on them for illegally buying licenses 
then the ATF came and took their guns. I suspect the forbidden at home thrill 
of shooting played a large part in their decision to seek an education in the 
western US. 

There have also been lawsuits in the last couple of years over resident aliens 
being denied basic human rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment. I believe 
some suits were mooted by regulatory or legislative changes, but I can't 
remember if those changes were at the state or federal level. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I've not heard of that one, but then I don't watch much tv.


Dwight Giles via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 10:59 PM
Enough. Take this to CSI genius

Dwight Giles Jr.
1982 300CD
2005 E320 4matic
Wickford RI



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

Enough. Take this to CSI genius

Dwight Giles Jr.
1982 300CD
2005 E320 4matic
Wickford RI

On Dec 2, 2017 11:23 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> Does #1 relieve the scumbag of responsibility for his actions?
>
> Good info Greg.  Thanks for your perspective.
>
>> Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
>> December 2, 2017 at 4:21 PM
>> 1. Apparently the prosecution conducted some forensic analysis on the
>> recovered bullet as well as the pier concrete, and found evidence that the
>> bullet that killed Kate had indeed ricocheted off the pier.
>>
>> 2. The weapon was a Sig P239, which is available in several calibers and
>> 3 flavors: DA/SA, DAO, and "DAK trigger system developed for law
>> enforcement" I believe the DAK Sig is the one my son owns, a twin for his
>> USCG duty weapon. It has a 6.5 lb. long trigger pull, hardly a hair-trigger
>> which could be readily discharged by accident.
>>
>> 3. It is likely that as a federal LEO, the agent had authorization to
>> carry either his issued duty weapon or a personally owned firearm. I have
>> had 6 different personally owned handguns over the years with written
>> authorizations for on and off duty carry. I am sure none would have been
>> allowed with a lighter than original trigger pull. The last was a DAO H
>> In recent decades the authorized weapons went to DA only to decrease the
>> possibility of accidental discharge and subsequent liability. Thanks
>> lawyers!
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Does #1 relieve the scumbag of responsibility for his actions?

Good info Greg.  Thanks for your perspective.

Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 4:21 PM
1. Apparently the prosecution conducted some forensic analysis on the 
recovered bullet as well as the pier concrete, and found evidence that 
the bullet that killed Kate had indeed ricocheted off the pier.


2. The weapon was a Sig P239, which is available in several calibers 
and 3 flavors: DA/SA, DAO, and "DAK trigger system developed for law 
enforcement" I believe the DAK Sig is the one my son owns, a twin for 
his USCG duty weapon. It has a 6.5 lb. long trigger pull, hardly a 
hair-trigger which could be readily discharged by accident.


3. It is likely that as a federal LEO, the agent had authorization to 
carry either his issued duty weapon or a personally owned firearm. I 
have had 6 different personally owned handguns over the years with 
written authorizations for on and off duty carry. I am sure none would 
have been allowed with a lighter than original trigger pull. The last 
was a DAO H In recent decades the authorized weapons went to DA 
only to decrease the possibility of accidental discharge and 
subsequent liability. Thanks lawyers!


Greg


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

And the mounting confusion of just who is laying claim the Cascadia?  The lefty 
nanny socialist may have dreamt it up as a panacea for feel good bleeding 
hearts, but now the alt right is laying claim to it as a drive to keep a hold 
of constitutional rights instead of SJW dreams


clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Dec 2, 2017, at 6:38 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> clay wrote:
>> If you can not communicate in the language of the nation, you should have no 
>> rights beyond that of a pre-pubecent child.
> 
> This is totally correct - thank you Clay!!  And there you are living
> in the People's Republic of Washington.
> tin.man
> 
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

I assume a person could take the concealed carry class even if not qualified 
for a CCL/P.  Here (NC) one must take and pass the concealed carry class as a 
prerequisite to even apply for the CCP.  
I was always understood that 2A applied only to citizens.  But I reviewed the 
100 citizenship test questions recently and they implied 2A applies to all US 
persons irrespective of citizenship.  The new (2016) ATF 4473 implies US 
citizenship is not mandatory; I think it was mandatory on the old form.  Maybe 
an Obama administration change.  So I'm unsure.
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan
> Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 3:55 PM
> To: Mercedes List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles
> 
> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
> the
> feelings of the group as a whole:
> 
> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in
> Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people 
> there was
> a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the English
> language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to translate 
> for
> them.
> 
> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
> 
> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their
> first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately
> obtain their concealed carry license?
> 
> Discuss, please.
> 
> -D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Andrew believes that all 'Merkuns should be illegals.

Where I came from that was called anarchy.

Lenin sought to instill anarchy.  But he didn't want anarchy.  He wanted 
power.  Anarchy is  only a tool used to enslave people.  Lenin enslaved 
nations, and became all powerful.  He killed millions.


Not the kind of guy I want around.

(Neither is the scumbag under discussion)


Mountain Man via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 8:30 PM

Hone that defense and you too can travel 55mph in marked 35mph.
Illegal ends all dialog for me. There ain't nothing but illegal on
this story. What part of illegal is okay? Illegal is the beginning
and end of all dialog on this story. I take responsibility if I am
illegal. Hang me.
tin.man


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

clay wrote:
> If you can not communicate in the language of the nation, you should have no 
> rights beyond that of a pre-pubecent child.

This is totally correct - thank you Clay!!  And there you are living
in the People's Republic of Washington.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Andrew wrote:
> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
> shoot her.

Hone that defense and you too can travel 55mph in marked 35mph.
Illegal ends all dialog for me.  There ain't nothing but illegal on
this story.  What part of illegal is okay?  Illegal is the beginning
and end of all dialog on this story.  I take responsibility if I am
illegal.  Hang me.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

BZZZT.  Wrong:

To be eligible for a Florida concealed weapon or firearm license:

• You must be 21 years of age or older.
• You must be able to demonstrate competency with a firearm.
• Unless you are serving overseas in the United States Armed Forces, 
you must currently reside in the United States and be a U.S. citizen or deemed 
a lawful permanent resident alien by Department of Homeland Security, U.S. 
Citizenship and Immigration Service. If you are serving overseas in the U.S. 
Armed Forces, submit a copy of your deployment documentation with your 
application. Those who are Resident Aliens must provide a valid Permanent 
Resident Alien card.

So a permanent resident alien can possess a firearm legally in Florida and 
obtain a CWL.

-D


> On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Nein.  It is a requisite to be a citizen.  2nd amendment DOES NOT APPLY to 
> non-citizens.
> 
> Do you really want armed invaders walking around in this country?  (I don't)
> 
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> December 2, 2017 at 2:55 PM
>> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
>> the feelings of the group as a whole:
>> 
>> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
>> Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people 
>> there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the 
>> English language. As a result of this they had a family member present to 
>> translate for them.
>> 
>> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
>> 
>> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
>> first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
>> obtain their concealed carry license?
>> 
>> Discuss, please.
>> 
>> -D
> 
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

(from a fairness point of view, not a point of US law):

Not really good enough.  Imprisoned (or running around) he is burden to 
the taxpayers.  He should be allowed to have his family pay for his 
keep, IF they want to, or should be disposed of.  As a multiple felon, 
he deserves no quarter.   He should not be exported back to wherever, 
unless it is in a cheap pine box. (and then at his family's expense, IF 
they want what's left of him.)



Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 3:30 PM
AG Sessions has stated that DOJ is considering what charges he is 
eligible for, and wants to seek the maximum penalties for such 
charges. As someone who has reentered several times after deportation, 
he has violated 8 U.S. Code § 1326, and is eligible for anywhere from 
2-20 years per count, depending on what class of crimes were committed 
for which he was deported.


After serving his back-to-back sentences, he would again be deported 
(if he were still alive). Good enough.


Greg


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Good questions, Grant.  I have to assume that in Florida an LPR can possess a 
firearm and pass a Federal background check.  In order to participate in the 
class you have to provide ID, but that’s all.

While it would seem to be an exercise in futility to take the class if you 
couldn’t pass the screening, I didn’t see anything in the requirements that 
would prevent someone from signing up and taking it, even if they didn’t 
qualify to own/carry a firearm.

Understand that the class is a requirement for application to carry in Florida. 
 It’s not the actual vetting process per se - you still have to make 
application to the State with valid fingerprints and pass a Federal and state 
background check.  You have to take the class, get fingerprinted, take a test, 
complete a form similar to the 4473 and pay a fee before you can even be 
considered for a license to carry.  The vetting process takes about 5-7 weeks 
at present, but can take up to six months at the State’s discretion.

-D

> On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:21 PM, G Mann via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> To Dan:
> I just went through the Citizenship process with an individual here. She
> was required to both read and comprehend English before qualifying to be
> granted Citizenship.
> No English, No Citizenship.
> 
> To my knowledge, anyone NOT a citizen is prohibited from possession of a
> firearm.
> This would bar LPR from purchase or possession... so my first question
> would be... "How did the person get into a concealed carry class?"
> 
> The admin of the CCW class surely knows the legal qualifications of this
> individual.
> Here, evidence of ID is required to be admitted... Surely FL has same
> requirement. Also, a background check, prior to issue of permit...
> Fingerprints.. etc..
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Nein.  It is a requisite to be a citizen.  2nd amendment DOES NOT APPLY 
to non-citizens.


Do you really want armed invaders walking around in this country?  (I don't)



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 2:55 PM
Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious 
as to the feelings of the group as a whole:


I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement 
in Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five 
people there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear 
command of the English language. As a result of this they had a family 
member present to translate for them.


They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm 
handling/firing).


Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not 
their first language, should they have been allowed to participate, 
and ultimately obtain their concealed carry license?


Discuss, please.

-D


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

My uncle is a resident alien (Canadian) and he's allowed firearm ownership. 
Firearm ownership is a state thing and Maine is constitutional carry state so 
theres no registration anyway but he can pass the federal background check to 
buy guns...
-Curt
 

On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 5:21:59 PM EST, G Mann via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 To Dan:
I just went through the Citizenship process with an individual here. She
was required to both read and comprehend English before qualifying to be
granted Citizenship.
No English, No Citizenship.

To my knowledge, anyone NOT a citizen is prohibited from possession of a
firearm.
This would bar LPR from purchase or possession... so my first question
would be... "How did the person get into a concealed carry class?"

The admin of the CCW class surely knows the legal qualifications of this
individual.
Here, evidence of ID is required to be admitted... Surely FL has same
requirement. Also, a background check, prior to issue of permit...
Fingerprints.. etc..

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as
> to the feelings of the group as a whole:
>
> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in
> Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people
> there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of
> the English language.  As a result of this they had a family member present
> to translate for them.
>
> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
>
> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not
> their first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and
> ultimately obtain their concealed carry license?
>
> Discuss, please.
>
> -D
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

To Dan:
I just went through the Citizenship process with an individual here. She
was required to both read and comprehend English before qualifying to be
granted Citizenship.
No English, No Citizenship.

To my knowledge, anyone NOT a citizen is prohibited from possession of a
firearm.
This would bar LPR from purchase or possession... so my first question
would be... "How did the person get into a concealed carry class?"

The admin of the CCW class surely knows the legal qualifications of this
individual.
Here, evidence of ID is required to be admitted... Surely FL has same
requirement. Also, a background check, prior to issue of permit...
Fingerprints.. etc..

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as
> to the feelings of the group as a whole:
>
> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in
> Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people
> there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of
> the English language.  As a result of this they had a family member present
> to translate for them.
>
> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
>
> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not
> their first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and
> ultimately obtain their concealed carry license?
>
> Discuss, please.
>
> -D
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles, some details

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

1. Apparently the prosecution conducted some forensic analysis on the recovered 
bullet as well as the pier concrete, and found evidence that the bullet that 
killed Kate had indeed ricocheted off the pier.

2. The weapon was a Sig P239, which is available in several calibers and 3 
flavors: DA/SA, DAO, and "DAK trigger system developed for law enforcement" I 
believe the DAK Sig is the one my son owns, a twin for his USCG duty weapon. It 
has a 6.5 lb. long trigger pull, hardly a hair-trigger which could be readily 
discharged by accident.

3. It is likely that as a federal LEO, the agent had authorization to carry 
either his issued duty weapon or a personally owned firearm. I have had 6 
different personally owned handguns over the years with written authorizations 
for on and off duty carry. I am sure none would have been allowed with a 
lighter than original trigger pull. The last was a DAO H In recent decades 
the authorized weapons went to DA only to decrease the possibility of 
accidental discharge and subsequent liability. Thanks lawyers!

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann via 
Mercedes
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:18 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: G Mann
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

Interesting posit. Just where did you find this tidbit of fact. Since the 
Defense Lawyer made the claim "the gun had a hair trigger and he didn't intend 
to shoot her", but I find no information about a ricochet shot as being the 
killing wound.
Since the weapon was stolen from a police car, the likely owner was a 
policeman, No LEO's carry weapons with "hair triggers" because if there is a 
"shots fired" incident, the first claim by opposing lawyer representing the 
deceased criminal would be the cop used a weapon "reworked" to establish the 
cop is a "premeditated killer"... so NO police department armorer will set a 
trigger at less than 3 lb pull..

I do however find first person evidence by the young woman's' family members. 
who were with her at the murder, who stated the "alleged killer"
walked up to her and shot her, point blank.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes < 
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't 
> intend to shoot her.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes < 
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > no
> >
> > This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
> >> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, 
> >> shooting multiple victims?
> >>
> >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

AG Sessions has stated that DOJ is considering what charges he is eligible for, 
and wants to seek the maximum penalties for such charges. As someone who has 
reentered several times after deportation, he has violated 8 U.S. Code § 1326, 
and is eligible for anywhere from 2-20 years per count, depending on what class 
of crimes were committed for which he was deported.

After serving his back-to-back sentences, he would again be deported (if he 
were still alive). Good enough.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curley 
McLain via Mercedes
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:45 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Curley McLain
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

I can think of other consequences he should get, rather than spending 40 years 
at tax payer expense.  I'm thinking cutting off certain body parts a quarter of 
an inch at a time with no anesthetic, once a week until there is nothing left.  
Then after that, make him suffer.

> G Mann via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> December 2, 2017 at 
> 12:49 PM The Perp has an outstanding felony warrant in Texas for 
> violation of deportation 4 times, plus other add on criminal charges 
> for crimes committed in Texas. Texas has now issued "arrest and detain 
> order" for his delivery and prosecution in Texas.
>
> The violation of deportation counts each carry a 10 year sentence to 
> be served consecutively, not "concurrently" which would mean 40 yrs in 
> prison just on those counts. Additional charges are for "supervised 
> release violation [criminal parol]", in the US District Court for 
> Western District of Texas, and other charges pending.
>
> The Federal Court unsealed their warrant immediately upon completion 
> of the case in California.
>

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

I think not.

If you can not communicate in the language of the nation, you should have no 
rights beyond that of a pre-pubecent child.  No way should you get any 
documentation that allows you to operate a vehicle, weapons, work, or enter 
into any legal agreements.  

clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Dec 2, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
> the feelings of the group as a whole:
> 
> I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
> Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people 
> there was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the 
> English language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to 
> translate for them.
> 
> They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).
> 
> Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
> first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
> obtain their concealed carry license?
> 
> Discuss, please.
> 
> -D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I know this person wasn’t a citizen, but I do believe they were an LPR. I think 
they were a resident alien.

I would agree that language shouldn’t be a barrier, my concern would be more 
one of comprehension.  How can you be certain the person fully comprehends the 
law?  As someone who holds a degree in teaching people with learning 
disabilities, I am a bit more sensitive about one’s ability to comprehend.  I 
can teach someone, but how do I assess their ability to comprehend?

-D
 
> On Dec 2, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> If they are US citizens or Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) they are 
> eligible to purchase and possess firearms unless otherwise disqualified. I 
> have some concerns if their "translator" actually may have answered the 
> questions on the written test. There can be US citizens who do not speak any 
> English, for example persons born in Puerto Rico, born in the US but raised 
> elsewhere, or a naturalized citizen over a certain age who is exempt from the 
> language requirement.
> 
> Language ability per se should not be a bar to a license
> 
> Greg 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I agree, as long as we have no official language...
-Curt
 

On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 4:16:19 PM EST, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:  
 
 If they are US citizens or Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) they are eligible 
to purchase and possess firearms unless otherwise disqualified. I have some 
concerns if their "translator" actually may have answered the questions on the 
written test. There can be US citizens who do not speak any English, for 
example persons born in Puerto Rico, born in the US but raised elsewhere, or a 
naturalized citizen over a certain age who is exempt from the language 
requirement.

Language ability per se should not be a bar to a license

Greg 

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff 
via Mercedes
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:55 PM
To: Mercedes List
Cc: Dan Penoff
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
the feelings of the group as a whole:

I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people there 
was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the English 
language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to translate 
for them.

They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).

Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
obtain their concealed carry license?

Discuss, please.

-D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

If they are US citizens or Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) they are eligible 
to purchase and possess firearms unless otherwise disqualified. I have some 
concerns if their "translator" actually may have answered the questions on the 
written test. There can be US citizens who do not speak any English, for 
example persons born in Puerto Rico, born in the US but raised elsewhere, or a 
naturalized citizen over a certain age who is exempt from the language 
requirement.

Language ability per se should not be a bar to a license

Greg 

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff 
via Mercedes
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:55 PM
To: Mercedes List
Cc: Dan Penoff
Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
the feelings of the group as a whole:

I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people there 
was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the English 
language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to translate 
for them.

They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).

Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
obtain their concealed carry license?

Discuss, please.

-D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Let’s defer to the subject and posit on this situation, as I’m curious as to 
the feelings of the group as a whole:

I took my concealed weapon permit class today, which is a requirement in 
Florida to obtain a concealed carry license. In the class of five people there 
was a person of foreign origin who did not have a clear command of the English 
language.  As a result of this they had a family member present to translate 
for them.

They passed the test, both written and practical (firearm handling/firing).

Because they did not have a command of English and it was clearly not their 
first language, should they have been allowed to participate, and ultimately 
obtain their concealed carry license?

Discuss, please.

-D
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Now they gotta catch him first.  Not easy when johnny law  in 
Sanfransicko is covering for him.


Can we all just disband the fedgov and join the Republic of Texas?   
(What Rodney King shoulda said)



Max Dillon via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 12:53 PM
Thank God for justice via Trump and Texas!


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I can think of other consequences he should get, rather than spending 40 
years at tax payer expense.  I'm thinking cutting off certain body parts 
a quarter of an inch at a time with no anesthetic, once a week until 
there is nothing left.  Then after that, make him suffer.



G Mann via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 12:49 PM
The Perp has an outstanding felony warrant in Texas for violation of
deportation 4 times, plus other add on criminal charges for crimes
committed in Texas. Texas has now issued "arrest and detain order" for his
delivery and prosecution in Texas.

The violation of deportation counts each carry a 10 year sentence to be
served consecutively, not "concurrently" which would mean 40 yrs in prison
just on those counts. Additional charges are for "supervised release
violation [criminal parol]", in the US District Court for Western District
of Texas, and other charges pending.

The Federal Court unsealed their warrant immediately upon completion 
of the

case in California.



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Thank God for justice via Trump and Texas!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On December 2, 2017 1:49:20 PM EST, G Mann via Mercedes  
wrote:
>The Perp has an outstanding felony warrant in Texas for violation of
>deportation 4 times, plus other add on criminal charges for crimes
>committed in Texas. Texas has now issued "arrest and detain order" for
>his
>delivery and prosecution in Texas.
>
>The violation of deportation counts each carry a 10 year sentence to be
>served consecutively, not "concurrently" which would mean 40 yrs in
>prison
>just on those counts. Additional charges are for "supervised release
>violation [criminal parol]", in the US District Court for Western
>District
>of Texas, and other charges pending.
>
>The Federal Court unsealed their warrant immediately upon completion of
>the
>case in California.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

The Perp has an outstanding felony warrant in Texas for violation of
deportation 4 times, plus other add on criminal charges for crimes
committed in Texas. Texas has now issued "arrest and detain order" for his
delivery and prosecution in Texas.

The violation of deportation counts each carry a 10 year sentence to be
served consecutively, not "concurrently" which would mean 40 yrs in prison
just on those counts. Additional charges are for "supervised release
violation [criminal parol]", in the US District Court for Western District
of Texas, and other charges pending.

The Federal Court unsealed their warrant immediately upon completion of the
case in California.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:57 AM, tyee165 via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
wrote:

> Your supposition might be correct but there was no evidence. The gun was
> stolen but there was no evidence that he stole it. The shooting appeared to
> be accidental.Our whole justice system is based on the idea that it is
> better to let the guilty go free than to convict the innocent.
>
>
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
>  Original message From: G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> Date: 2017-12-01  10:17 AM  (GMT-06:00) To:
> Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> Cc: G Mann <
> g2ma...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [MBZ] no Ingles
> Illegal alien, deported 5 times, criminal history each time, gun stolen
> from a police car, kills young woman in front of her father, in a sanctuary
> city, tried in front of a sanctuary liberal judge, who released him of
> murder charge.
> Did I get it all correct?
>
> Once in my lifetime... is how often...
>
> It is reported the judge does NOT drive a Mercedes just in case you
> weren't pissed already
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > How often does this happen?
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the
> > > driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is
> out,
> > > the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.
> So
> > > much for justice.
> > >
> > > Dimitri via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > >> November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
> > >> Ayup
> > >>
> > >>
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
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> >
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

There is ample evidence that the scumbag IS a professional criminal.  
The likelihood IS that he stole the weapon from the vehicle.  I'd give 
it over 90% odds.


The problem is they let the professional criminals, especially wetbacks, 
go free; while at the same time, they increasingly persecute citizens, 
for example, breaking  int Maniford's house, waving pistols in their 
faces, body searches, etc to try to produce a "crime" by political 
opponents where  none exists.



Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line in front of the IRS 
auditor, or even IRS court for that matter.   Let me know how far it 
gets you!

tyee165 via Mercedes 
December 2, 2017 at 8:57 AM
Your supposition might be correct but there was no evidence. The gun 
was stolen but there was no evidence that he stole it. The shooting 
appeared to be accidental.Our whole justice system is based on the 
idea that it is better to let the guilty go free than to convict the 
innocent.


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[tyee165 via Mercedes]

Your supposition might be correct but there was no evidence. The gun was stolen 
but there was no evidence that he stole it. The shooting appeared to be 
accidental.Our whole justice system is based on the idea that it is better to 
let the guilty go free than to convict the innocent.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: G Mann via Mercedes 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> Date: 2017-12-01  10:17 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mercedes 
Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> Cc: G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> Subject: 
Re: [MBZ] no Ingles 
Illegal alien, deported 5 times, criminal history each time, gun stolen
from a police car, kills young woman in front of her father, in a sanctuary
city, tried in front of a sanctuary liberal judge, who released him of
murder charge.
Did I get it all correct?

Once in my lifetime... is how often...

It is reported the judge does NOT drive a Mercedes just in case you
weren't pissed already

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> How often does this happen?
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the
> > driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is out,
> > the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.   So
> > much for justice.
> >
> > Dimitri via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
> >> Ayup
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

"Once upon a time, in the land of fruits and nuts" .. etc etc

Discovered late today Texas announced details of the outstanding warrant on
the newly freed felon shooter... and their intent to pursue full
prosecution of same.

Now,,, if only someone can find him... again.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Now tell me about the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From:  Randy Bennell via Mercedes
> >
> > According to the newspaper article that I read, the testimony was to the
> effect
> > that he had found the gun there wrapped in a rag under a bench or chair
> and
> > upon pulling this package out of the hiding spot, acceidently set it off
> and thus
> > had no intention to discharge it or harm anyone. I believe various
> witnesses
> > testified and apparently no one contradicted his evidence sufficiently
> to cause
> > the court to find that his guilt was beyond a reasonable doubt.
> >
> > RB
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Now tell me about the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

> -Original Message-
> From:  Randy Bennell via Mercedes
> 
> According to the newspaper article that I read, the testimony was to the 
> effect
> that he had found the gun there wrapped in a rag under a bench or chair and
> upon pulling this package out of the hiding spot, acceidently set it off and 
> thus
> had no intention to discharge it or harm anyone. I believe various witnesses
> testified and apparently no one contradicted his evidence sufficiently to 
> cause
> the court to find that his guilt was beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> RB
> 


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 1, 2017 at 5:39 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I thought the gun was stolen from BLM...

Park Ranger in the employ of BLM was moving to a new job assignment, it was 
supposedly his 'back up duty weapon', so I'm not sure if it was his or BLM's, 
and he parked in SF with the Sig in a backpack under the front seat of his 
truck. 

I highly suspect the 7 time felon who 'found the gun in a bag under a bench' 
found it in a bag under a bench seat in a locked truck that he had just broken 
into. 

There was claimed to be physical evidence that a shot ricocheted, not 
necessarily the one that hit her. He was said to have claimed that he was 
shooting at a protected animal and hit her by accident, then he changed his 
story and claimed that the guy just 'went off by accident' and he wasn't 
shooting it at all.  

Given all that we've seen in the news since the killing, one has to believe 
that the prosecution really screwed up if 12 jurors unanimously agreed that the 
only crime which was proven beyond reasonable doubt was that he was a felon in 
possession of a firearm. And they couldn't have convicted him of that if they 
bought the story that he was in the act of picking up a stray package when it 
went BOOM. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I thought the gun was stolen from BLM...
-Curt
 

On Friday, December 1, 2017, 3:18:15 PM EST, G Mann via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Interesting posit. Just where did you find this tidbit of fact. Since the
Defense Lawyer made the claim "the gun had a hair trigger and he didn't
intend to shoot her", but I find no information about a ricochet shot as
being the killing wound.
Since the weapon was stolen from a police car, the likely owner was a
policeman, No LEO's carry weapons with "hair triggers" because if there is
a "shots fired" incident, the first claim by opposing lawyer representing
the deceased criminal would be the cop used a weapon "reworked" to
establish the cop is a "premeditated killer"... so NO police department
armorer will set a trigger at less than 3 lb pull..

I do however find first person evidence by the young woman's' family
members. who were with her at the murder, who stated the "alleged killer"
walked up to her and shot her, point blank.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
> shoot her.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > no
> >
> > This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> >> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
> >> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
> >> multiple victims?
> >>
> >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I concede the point that at this level, none of us have verifiable
information from reliable sources at the scene.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:18 PM, G Mann  wrote:

> Interesting posit. Just where did you find this tidbit of fact. Since the
> Defense Lawyer made the claim "the gun had a hair trigger and he didn't
> intend to shoot her", but I find no information about a ricochet shot as
> being the killing wound.
> Since the weapon was stolen from a police car, the likely owner was a
> policeman, No LEO's carry weapons with "hair triggers" because if there is
> a "shots fired" incident, the first claim by opposing lawyer representing
> the deceased criminal would be the cop used a weapon "reworked" to
> establish the cop is a "premeditated killer"... so NO police department
> armorer will set a trigger at less than 3 lb pull..
>
> I do however find first person evidence by the young woman's' family
> members. who were with her at the murder, who stated the "alleged killer"
> walked up to her and shot her, point blank.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
>> shoot her.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>> > no
>> >
>> > This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
>> >
>> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>> >> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
>> >> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
>> >> multiple victims?
>> >>
>> >
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >
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>> >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Interesting posit. Just where did you find this tidbit of fact. Since the
Defense Lawyer made the claim "the gun had a hair trigger and he didn't
intend to shoot her", but I find no information about a ricochet shot as
being the killing wound.
Since the weapon was stolen from a police car, the likely owner was a
policeman, No LEO's carry weapons with "hair triggers" because if there is
a "shots fired" incident, the first claim by opposing lawyer representing
the deceased criminal would be the cop used a weapon "reworked" to
establish the cop is a "premeditated killer"... so NO police department
armorer will set a trigger at less than 3 lb pull..

I do however find first person evidence by the young woman's' family
members. who were with her at the murder, who stated the "alleged killer"
walked up to her and shot her, point blank.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
> shoot her.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > no
> >
> > This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
> >
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> >> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
> >> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
> >> multiple victims?
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

But but but this is WAY worse than a US citizen shooting and killing 75
people in Las Vegas. Or at a minimum, mistaking an apple for a pomegranate.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> According to the newspaper article that I read, the testimony was to the
> effect that he had found the gun there wrapped in a rag under a bench or
> chair and upon pulling this package out of the hiding spot, acceidently set
> it off and thus had no intention to discharge it or harm anyone. I believe
> various witnesses testified and apparently no one contradicted his evidence
> sufficiently to cause the court to find that his guilt was beyond a
> reasonable doubt.
>
> RB
>
>
>
> On 01/12/2017 1:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
>> shoot her.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>> no
>>>
>>> This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
>>>
>>> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>>>
 December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
 Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
 multiple victims?

 ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>
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>>>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

According to the newspaper article that I read, the testimony was to the 
effect that he had found the gun there wrapped in a rag under a bench or 
chair and upon pulling this package out of the hiding spot, acceidently 
set it off and thus had no intention to discharge it or harm anyone. I 
believe various witnesses testified and apparently no one contradicted 
his evidence sufficiently to cause the court to find that his guilt was 
beyond a reasonable doubt.


RB


On 01/12/2017 1:15 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
shoot her.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


no

This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 

December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
multiple victims?


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

His shot ricocheted off a pier so he acted recklessly but didn't intend to
shoot her.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> no
>
> This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.
>
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>> December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
>> Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
>> multiple victims?
>>
>
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

no

This scumbag (the criminal, not the judge) is a career criminal.


Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
December 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
multiple victims?


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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Sort of like deranged American-born males going on a rampage, shooting
multiple victims?

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:17 AM, G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Illegal alien, deported 5 times, criminal history each time, gun stolen
> from a police car, kills young woman in front of her father, in a sanctuary
> city, tried in front of a sanctuary liberal judge, who released him of
> murder charge.
> Did I get it all correct?
>
> Once in my lifetime... is how often...
>
> It is reported the judge does NOT drive a Mercedes just in case you
> weren't pissed already
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > How often does this happen?
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the
> > > driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is
> out,
> > > the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.
>  So
> > > much for justice.
> > >
> > > Dimitri via Mercedes 
> > >> November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
> > >> Ayup
> > >>
> > >>
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
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> > >
> > >
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Illegal alien, deported 5 times, criminal history each time, gun stolen
from a police car, kills young woman in front of her father, in a sanctuary
city, tried in front of a sanctuary liberal judge, who released him of
murder charge.
Did I get it all correct?

Once in my lifetime... is how often...

It is reported the judge does NOT drive a Mercedes just in case you
weren't pissed already

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> How often does this happen?
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the
> > driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is out,
> > the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.   So
> > much for justice.
> >
> > Dimitri via Mercedes 
> >> November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
> >> Ayup
> >>
> >>
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

How often does this happen?

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the
> driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is out,
> the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.   So
> much for justice.
>
> Dimitri via Mercedes 
>> November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
>> Ayup
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

But if  the same illegal runs into a semi and kills itself:   If the 
driver's logbook is not up to date and/or if one clearance light is out, 
the driver is automatically GUILTY, without trial, of manslaughter.   So 
much for justice.



Dimitri via Mercedes 
November 30, 2017 at 10:46 PM
Ayup



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Re: [MBZ] no Ingles

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Ayup 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, to get away with murder in this country, all  you need to do is be an 
> illegal alien.   STILL!
> 
> http://abc7news.com/kate-steinle-murder-suspect-found-not-guilty/2679176/
> 
> 
> 
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[MBZ] no Ingles

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Well, to get away with murder in this country, all  you need to do is be 
an illegal alien.   STILL!


http://abc7news.com/kate-steinle-murder-suspect-found-not-guilty/2679176/



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