Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Alex Chamberlain wrote: Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? You get fuel (or diesel purge) enough to start it, but not a continuous flow to keep it running? I'm thinking, get a 5' chunk of clear vinyl hose, probably 1/4 ID, stick it on the outlet of the clear filter, suck it full of diesel, drop the end in a 5 gallon can, and see if you can siphon the can full with a good flow of airless fuel. Then you'll know if your problem is underhood or elsewhere. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: get a 5' chunk of clear vinyl hose, probably 1/4 ID, stick it on the outlet of the clear filter, suck it full of diesel, drop the end in a 5 gallon can, and see if you can siphon the can full with a good flow of airless fuel. Then you'll know if your problem is underhood or elsewhere. Thanks Mitch, good idea. I would love to be able to rule out the possibility of having to drop the tank and/or clean out the filter screen. And I can do that while waiting for the battery to charge. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If you cranked for one minute but stopped 3 times to glow during that minute, I don't think you will succeed. I have always had to crank for between thirty seconds and a minute before it starts firing, and usually it takes three or more attempts with a couple of minutes rest in between. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I also think your battery is not fully charged. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Progress, hurray! I'd guess your air actually leaked OUT which got you a complete charge of fuel for a sec which let it run. If it were me I'd proactively replace all the rubber fuel lines. I HATE chasing fuel leaks... The only lines I've never replaced are the clear plastic ones around the filter... -Curt Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:39:42 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=ZxBU7hLLy-g6Z=mdmvmpoe+yxtufzrwdj4fogmivc...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I've seen the fuel lines pick up air at the banjo fittings, not at the washers, but where they are pressed into the plastic. It was exacerbated by a plugged tank vent. Also, do the 603's have a solenoid shutoff valve? If so, replace the o-ring(s) behind it. -- John W Reames jream...@verizon.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Aug 20, 2011, at 11:58, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Progress, hurray! I'd guess your air actually leaked OUT which got you a complete charge of fuel for a sec which let it run. If it were me I'd proactively replace all the rubber fuel lines. I HATE chasing fuel leaks... The only lines I've never replaced are the clear plastic ones around the filter... -Curt Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:39:42 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=ZxBU7hLLy-g6Z=mdmvmpoe+yxtufzrwdj4fogmivc...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It is possible the transfer pump died. We had that happen to the ~30 year one on the 200D 2.4 Did you pull off the return line from the injectors to the fitting at the fuel filter? If not, pull that off and watch as the engine is cranked. It should gush fuel from both sides without bubbles or foam. if not, you get some clues. IF that is not good, then you can loosen the fitting at the filter from the transfer pump while cranking. Just crack it enough to see if there is fuel under pressure, then tighten it up again right away. That will insure fuel delivery from the transfer pump. Any air will show as bubbles also. Some progress! After 48 hours on the Battery Tender the battery (a new Group 49 from NAPA, you may recall) was finally fully charged. I was able to crank for nearly a minute before the starter audibly slowed down. No cooking-electronics smell this time. I stopped cranking to reglow every twenty seconds or so, as Peter suggested. When I first turned the key after the first glow cycle, the car seemed to start and run perfectly for a moment---just long enough for me to think Hey, it's fixed!---then went back to the pattern it was showing before, of mostly just cranking and occasionally firing on one or two cylinders. Significance? There was no appreciable smoke from the exhaust and only a little smell of mixed raw diesel and Diesel Purge. I guess all this means I can rule out electrical problems, and concentrate on fuel delivery. Peter said a few messages back: You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. I'll round up a helper and do that once the battery is charged up again. Comments? Particularly on the weird start and then fail behavior? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
At the tank, or under the hood between the hard line and the prefilter. For a temp, I'd put it under the hood. Curt: After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... Max: Unless the fuel system is not yet fully primed? That's why I like Loren's idea to put in an electric primer pump. But where exactly in the system? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: It's been on the Battery Tender for 24 hours now and the red light is still on, indicating it's not anywhere near a full charge. Battery Tender? You want something more analogous to SNL's Colon Blow cereal, a real battery _charger_. I use a 25yo 2A/10A Schauer, overnight will always do it. The tenders are for when in storage. Dunno, but the Battery Tender company claims their chargers will do everything but slice bread, and I've had good luck with them reviving batteries before, not just keeping them topped off. The other charger I have, the Schumacher, is a big heavy thing about the size of a portable typewriter, with 2A slow charge, 12A fast charge, and 75A jump start settings. I don't know if maybe I'm just not leaving it on long enough, but it doesn't seem to be able to charge a flat battery nearly as well as the little Battery Tender. On the 75A setting it does do well to start a car where the battery is just a little too low, like when SWMBO leaves her lights on all night in the winter (not that that's ever happened). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Ah, you've got a 12A charger. That's the ticket. Just put it on the depleted battery overnight. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Somebody had asked about that earlier. Most big batteries will take 2a forever... My 12a charger has recently decided it doesn't want to shut off from the 12a setting on smaller batteries. Its boiled my motorcycle battery twice. Now when I'm using it for that (the motorcycle hasn't been ridden much this year) I put it on a 2 hour timer. -Curt Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:06:54 -0400 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: 4e4e982e.20...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ah, you've got a 12A charger. That's the ticket. Just put it on the depleted battery overnight. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com writes: It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. New battery -- clamps are clean and TIGHT? Ground wire knocked loose (or corroded while sitting) at the chassis connection? Ran when parked -- Rodents chewing on the wiring while sitting? Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Part of the problem is electrical, either a loose or corroded wire from battery to starter or ground. The other part is a dormant obstinate engine. Pull start, then fix the wiring at your leisure. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It'd probably be fine for short periods. Its quite common to convert 6v tractors to 12v without modifying the starter. In those cases the 6v starter spins the engine so quick at 12v you only ever just bump the switch... The problem with running in parallel is that if the first battery is actually bad the second battery has to push it. Which is to say jumper cables aren't really parallel... Also most jumper cables are absolute crap. Good jumper cables cost real money. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:27:54 -0400 From: Rolf r...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: 4e4c163a.8000...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Oh thats a pretty bad idea IMO. Much better off running in parallel for extended run time. Not to mention burning out the starter. The motoroam has a 24v starter its 2x the size of the 617 started which is already huge to me. -Rolf On 08/17/2011 03:20 PM, Fmiser wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. I think I would rig 24V to spin the starter. *CAUTION* This requires being ABSOLUTELY SURE that none of the 24V gets to any other electrical system in the car. But I don't have an easy time getting a reliable helper. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:39:34 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=aW_kWuw+sE0uRj53NXrSdbeX7OsfPf=yq72iagc6a...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
And the lack of the reek and smoke leads me to think that there is air leaking in the fuel system, so that some fuel is getting to the nozzles, but not enough for full spurts form the nozzles, because of too much air. Another cheap trick is to put an electric fuel pump ahead of the transfer pump to pressurize the system. as a diagnostic/temp fix until all the leaks are stopped. After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:39:34 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=aW_kWuw+sE0uRj53NXrSdbeX7OsfPf=yq72iagc6a...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: And the lack of the reek and smoke leads me to think that there is air leaking in the fuel system, so that some fuel is getting to the nozzles, but not enough for full spurts form the nozzles, because of too much air. If I understand you right, this situation would explain the fact that I see a strong dribble of fuel when I crack open the hard lines, right? Another cheap trick is to put an electric fuel pump ahead of the transfer pump to pressurize the system. as a diagnostic/temp fix until all the leaks are stopped. You know, all the fuel lines are probably original. Maybe I should just replace all the ones in the engine compartment with fresh hose clamps. I bet Rusty can do me a package deal with all the right sizes. Is it worth replacing the two translucent hoses going to/from the main filter, the ones with the integral banjo bolts, if they are not visibly cracked? I like the electric fuel pump idea. Is the transfer pump is the little gadget hanging off the side of the IP below the side plate? By ahead you mean to splice the electric pump into the line just upstream from it, or just downstream? Would I leave the electric pump running all the time or just use it to get the engine started and then expect it to pull enough fuel by itself to keep running? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:58 AM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: New battery -- clamps are clean and TIGHT? Ground wire knocked loose (or corroded while sitting) at the chassis connection? Clamps and ground wire look good. As someone else wondered---it is indeed a Group 49, or whatever the tall, long one is that just barely fits in the tray. I have high hopes that the short cranking/quick run-down problem is merely that, as Curt suggested, the battery was never fully charged. It's been on the Battery Tender for 24 hours now and the red light is still on, indicating it's not anywhere near a full charge. The dumb Schumacher trickle charger I had it on before indicated a full charge after just 12 hours. I'm going to resist the urge to not try to start it for another 24 hours, longer if the solid green light on the Battery Tender isn't on yet. Ran when parked -- Rodents chewing on the wiring while sitting? Possibly, but I am crossing my fingers that's not the case. Mice got into the interior, built a couple of nests, and left their little calling cards all over. The seats are a total loss, impossible to get the smell out of them. I steam-cleaned the carpets, wiped down the door panels, and replaced the seats with the ones from my parts car (lesson: leave a window down or a door ajar on any car you don't want to have a mouse problem in, so that the barn cats can get in). But there was no sign that the mice had been under the hood. And I inspected the wiring to the seat motors on the old seats very closely and saw no signs of damage, despite the fact that one of the nests was right under the passenger seat. I hope that means these mice had no taste for wiring. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Alex wrote You know, all the fuel lines are probably original. One possible problem I had thought about is rusted metal lines. On several vehicles I have owned or worked on that have been parked for several years, fuel lines and brake lines tend to rust in two. Try the fully charged battery and hooking a fuel source under the hood. Rick ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If you've been deep cycling the new battery between 0% and 25% charge a few times, it might have severely diminished capacity already. If your charger(s) only supply a small fraction of the battery's capacity, can you put the battery in a running car and go for a drive at 30-40A for an hour or so? A new or nearly new battery, fully charged, should have an at rest voltage of 12.8 or better. (after it has been off the charger for a couple of hours) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: If you've been deep cycling the new battery between 0% and 25% charge a few times, it might have severely diminished capacity already. If your charger(s) only supply a small fraction of the battery's capacity, can you put the battery in a running car and go for a drive at 30-40A for an hour or so? Yeah, that's doable. If it still won't crank for more than 15 s tomorrow after being on the Battery Tender for two days, I'll try that. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Unless the fuel system is not yet fully primed? Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:39:34 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=aW_kWuw+sE0uRj53NXrSdbeX7OsfPf=yq72iagc6a...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Curt: After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... Max: Unless the fuel system is not yet fully primed? That's why I like Loren's idea to put in an electric primer pump. But where exactly in the system? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Dunno if 30 sec would be long enough to prime the system but Alex has been through this cycle several times now and has fuel at the injectors so I'd guess it *should* be primed by now. I'm thinking if it were mine I'd take the idea of running the new battery in the known good car for a couple hours to get it topped up. A battery tender is likely only charging at 2-3a which might not even be enough to beat internal resistance if the battery has been slightly damaged by running it down. If that didn't work I'd pull it... ;) Anybody remember that I actually got to try pull starting my '84 190D auto trans a couple months ago? Pulled it with a co-workers Infiniti, he was terrified through the whole procedure but quite proud afterward. -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:37:11 -0400 From: Max Dillon meadedil...@bellsouth.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: 52f2ecbc-2e68-4e0e-b1a8-b7d5e5a5a...@email.android.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Unless the fuel system is not yet fully primed? Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Go cheap; rig a fuel source elevated over the engine to provide pressure via gravity. It may also help ID any leaks. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: Curt: After 30 seconds of cranking with no start the car should reek of diesel... Max: Unless the fuel system is not yet fully primed? That's why I like Loren's idea to put in an electric primer pump. But where exactly in the system? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It's been on the Battery Tender for 24 hours now and the red light is still on, indicating it's not anywhere near a full charge. Battery Tender? You want something more analogous to SNL's Colon Blow cereal, a real battery _charger_. I use a 25yo 2A/10A Schauer, overnight will always do it. The tenders are for when in storage. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
More reasons I advocate manual transmissions! -Rolf On 08/17/2011 12:31 AM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: A pull start is more dangerous (to the car) than having the battery tested at the FLAPS. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It needs compression as well, without that it will not run. On 8/16/2011 10:53 PM, Luther's Benz wrote: Have you tried this start process with diesel purge from just under the hood?nbsp; Are you in a situation where you can pull start it?nbsp;If it won't pull start, then fuel blockage/leakage is the problem. All a diesel needs is fuel and air to run...wait, have you checked to make sure nothing made a nest in your air intake? Luther ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Some silly questions: Does the car have a block heater? Is so, plug it in for several hours and try again... the engine can be heated until its warm to the touch this way. And, are you cranking with your foot on the pedal? I can't remember where I read this, but I recall that having the pedal about 1/2 way down promotes bleeding of air from the system. (At least, I think it did on a 200D). Jaime On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Thanks for all the help, guys! To address all the advice and questions at once: - Jamie asked about the block heater. Great idea. It is an '87 so has the factory block heater, and I have the cable, just never bothered to hook it up. Right now the car is sitting on grass at an angle, so it's not exactly the best place to jack it up to get underneath and install the cable, but I'll see if I can tow it into my driveway and do that. - Jamie and Peter asked about holding the accelerator down all the way, and about repeatedly glowing while cranking. I'm doing both, essentially following a cold-weather start procedure. Hold the pedal down, turn key to glow position, make sure the glow light is on, wait until I hear the relay click off, crank for fifteen seconds or so, turn the key off, glow again, crank again, etc. If the glow light is on, doesn't that mean I'm getting power to the GPs? I will check for voltage there, regardless. What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? - Loren and others mentioned air flow. The air filter's clean and there's no sign of mouse or wasp activity on either side of it. As far as the other end, I never heard of mice or anything else clogging an exhaust, but I'll have someone else crank while I feel at the tailpipe for air movement. There isn't any smoke coming out while cranking, but I can definitely smell unburned Diesel Purge (which is what I filled the new main filter with when I changed it). - Walt and Peter mentioned battery condition. The battery is new and it's been on a Schumacher charger which has both slow charge and jump start modes. I've been leaving it on slow charge mode overnight, then flipping the switch to jump start and leaving it there for half a minute before trying to start the car. I've also tried hooking up another running car with a healthy electrical system so that the two batteries are working in parallel. That didn't seem to make any difference. - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-photo-sensor-tachometer-66632.html - Loren described a definitive test for air leaks in the fuel lines. I'll do that. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Do you have a digital sound recorder, or a laptop with a microphone in it? Record it, play it back at reduced speed, and count the compression strokes. Chugs per second x 20 = rpm on a four stroke six cylinder. 100rpm would be 5 chugs per second. Mitch. Alex Chamberlain wrote: - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Do you have a digital sound recorder, or a laptop with a microphone in it? Record it, play it back at reduced speed, and count the compression strokes. Chugs per second x 20 = rpm on a four stroke six cylinder. 100rpm would be 5 chugs per second. Brilliant! I just recorded it on my cell phone, loaded the sound file into Audacity, and counted the peaks. I'm getting seven chugs per second at the start of the cranking operation; after about fifteen seconds of steady cranking it drops rapidly to four. Good battery and starter, then? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Cranking RPMs can be gauged by looking at the tach, should be around 400-500 RPM Luther On Aug 17, 2011 11:02 AM, Alex Chamberlain lt;apchamberl...@gmail.comgt; wrote: Thanks for all the help, guys! To address all the advice and questions at once: - Jamie asked about the block heater. Great idea. It is an '87 so has the factory block heater, and I have the cable, just never bothered to hook it up. Right now the car is sitting on grass at an angle, so it's not exactly the best place to jack it up to get underneath and install the cable, but I'll see if I can tow it into my driveway and do that. - Jamie and Peter asked about holding the accelerator down all the way, and about repeatedly glowing while cranking. I'm doing both, essentially following a cold-weather start procedure. Hold the pedal down, turn key to glow position, make sure the glow light is on, wait until I hear the relay click off, crank for fifteen seconds or so, turn the key off, glow again, crank again, etc. If the glow light is on, doesn't that mean I'm getting power to the GPs? I will check for voltage there, regardless. What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? - Loren and others mentioned air flow. The air filter's clean and there's no sign of mouse or wasp activity on either side of it. As far as the other end, I never heard of mice or anything else clogging an exhaust, but I'll have someone else crank while I feel at the tailpipe for air movement. There isn't any smoke coming out while cranking, but I can definitely smell unburned Diesel Purge (which is what I filled the new main filter with when I changed it). - Walt and Peter mentioned battery condition. The battery is new and it's been on a Schumacher charger which has both slow charge and jump start modes. I've been leaving it on slow charge mode overnight, then flipping the switch to jump start and leaving it there for half a minute before trying to start the car. I've also tried hooking up another running car with a healthy electrical system so that the two batteries are working in parallel. That didn't seem to make any difference. - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-photo-sensor-tachometer-66632.html - Loren described a definitive test for air leaks in the fuel lines. I'll do that. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: Cranking RPMs can be gauged by looking at the tach, should be around 400-500 RPM Peter says 100, I'm getting about 140. Who's right? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. -Curt Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:52:17 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: 123f3017-6f63-41e2-8edc-dae7148a0...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Make sure the glow plugs are working. Glow again when it starts to sputter. Typically it will run on a few cylinders, stopping if you let off the starter, then gradually hit more and more and eventually run by itself. You won't overheat the starter if it's firing on a couple cylinders, it's not working very hard. Is there white smoke rolling out the exhaust? Should be if there is fuel delivery. You can try bypassing the fuel preheater -- switch the suction line directly to the lift pump. Replace the hoses if not new. You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. You may have a weak starter. They usually croak on a 603 by locking up solid, but it could be cranking slow. Minimum is 100 rprn, you should have better than that. Won't start otherwise, and you can crank til the end of time with a slow starter and nothing will happen. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
With a good battery you should be able to crank for at least 1 minute with no slow down. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld -Original Message- From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com Sender: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:56:13 To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:00 AM, buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: With a good battery you should be able to crank for at least 1 minute with no slow down. OK, I think this is a critical point then. It can only crank for 15 seconds before slowing down significantly. Defective battery? (It's brand new, NAPA's mid-priced line.) Defective charger? (I'll try one of my Battery Tenders instead of the Schumacher.) What else? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
15 seconds of cranking is too short by about 45 seconds. That could be your whole problem right there. When I do any fuel work on my 124s, sometimes I need three or more attempts that are each about 1 minute long, with 2 or 3 minutes of rest in between. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for all the help, guys! To address all the advice and questions at once: - Jamie asked about the block heater. Great idea. It is an '87 so has the factory block heater, and I have the cable, just never bothered to hook it up. Right now the car is sitting on grass at an angle, so it's not exactly the best place to jack it up to get underneath and install the cable, but I'll see if I can tow it into my driveway and do that. - Jamie and Peter asked about holding the accelerator down all the way, and about repeatedly glowing while cranking. I'm doing both, essentially following a cold-weather start procedure. Hold the pedal down, turn key to glow position, make sure the glow light is on, wait until I hear the relay click off, crank for fifteen seconds or so, turn the key off, glow again, crank again, etc. If the glow light is on, doesn't that mean I'm getting power to the GPs? I will check for voltage there, regardless. What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? - Loren and others mentioned air flow. The air filter's clean and there's no sign of mouse or wasp activity on either side of it. As far as the other end, I never heard of mice or anything else clogging an exhaust, but I'll have someone else crank while I feel at the tailpipe for air movement. There isn't any smoke coming out while cranking, but I can definitely smell unburned Diesel Purge (which is what I filled the new main filter with when I changed it). - Walt and Peter mentioned battery condition. The battery is new and it's been on a Schumacher charger which has both slow charge and jump start modes. I've been leaving it on slow charge mode overnight, then flipping the switch to jump start and leaving it there for half a minute before trying to start the car. I've also tried hooking up another running car with a healthy electrical system so that the two batteries are working in parallel. That didn't seem to make any difference. - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-photo-sensor-tachometer-66632.html - Loren described a definitive test for air leaks in the fuel lines. I'll do that. Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Diesel's always want the very best battery you can buy. Spare no expense. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld -Original Message- From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com Sender: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:04:51 To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:00 AM, buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: With a good battery you should be able to crank for at least 1 minute with no slow down. OK, I think this is a critical point then. It can only crank for 15 seconds before slowing down significantly. Defective battery? (It's brand new, NAPA's mid-priced line.) Defective charger? (I'll try one of my Battery Tenders instead of the Schumacher.) What else? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I think it means time for a new battery. Can you take the battery to your FLAPS for a load test? Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I will second that. At idle I think its 5cc per injection stroke. At 400RPM its going to be considerably less. -Rolf On 08/17/2011 01:07 PM, Max Dillon wrote: 15 seconds of cranking is too short by about 45 seconds. That could be your whole problem right there. When I do any fuel work on my 124s, sometimes I need three or more attempts that are each about 1 minute long, with 2 or 3 minutes of rest in between. Max ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Or just buy 2 and put them in parallel. -Rolf On 08/17/2011 01:11 PM, buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: Diesel's always want the very best battery you can buy. Spare no expense. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld -Original Message- From: Alex Chamberlainapchamberl...@gmail.com Sender: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:04:51 To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:00 AM,buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: With a good battery you should be able to crank for at least 1 minute with no slow down. OK, I think this is a critical point then. It can only crank for 15 seconds before slowing down significantly. Defective battery? (It's brand new, NAPA's mid-priced line.) Defective charger? (I'll try one of my Battery Tenders instead of the Schumacher.) What else? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: Diesel's always want the very best battery you can buy. Spare no expense. Is it a full size group 49 or similar, or one of those little modern things? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
7 per second * 60 seconds = 420 per minute. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Do you have a digital sound recorder, or a laptop with a microphone in it? Record it, play it back at reduced speed, and count the compression strokes. Chugs per second x 20 = rpm on a four stroke six cylinder. 100rpm would be 5 chugs per second. Brilliant! I just recorded it on my cell phone, loaded the sound file into Audacity, and counted the peaks. I'm getting seven chugs per second at the start of the cranking operation; after about fifteen seconds of steady cranking it drops rapidly to four. Good battery and starter, then? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Max Dillon wrote: 7 per second * 60 seconds = 420 *pulses* per minute. * 2 revs per pulse / 6 cylinders = 140 rpm. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:56:13 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=b20kg156tj-+sr4rr4gdhj4py4i8dme1n-crgcwhc...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Ooooh another thought, whats the rate on slow charge on your charger? On mine its 2a. Group 49 batteries at 900-1100cca but that doesn't tell us the long term capacity. I'm gonna guess, based on size its around 100ah so with your charger assuming you only run down to 75% thats still 12.5 hours to recharge. Could be on slow charge you're not getting enough time to get a full charge in. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:04:51 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=a9ts4GiQKNv-+3Lx=c_rerl2j5qxeaosywrxzwj6z...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:00 AM, buymbpa...@gmail.com wrote: With a good battery you should be able to crank for at least 1 minute with no slow down. OK, I think this is a critical point then. It can only crank for 15 seconds before slowing down significantly. Defective battery? (It's brand new, NAPA's mid-priced line.) Defective charger? (I'll try one of my Battery Tenders instead of the Schumacher.) What else? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If it is a group 49 battery and it is new and does this, it is probably the starter. As voltage drops the amperage increases which will kill a good battery quickly. My vote is starter not battery but since when does my vote count. Rusty Cullens BuyMBparts, Inc. www.buyMBparts.biz www.buyEUROparts.biz www.buyASIANparts.biz Tel/ 1-800-741-5252 Fax/ 770-454-9745 ICQ 427542441 AIM BuyMBparts - Original Message - From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:56:13 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: CABHyH=b20kg156tj-+sr4rr4gdhj4py4i8dme1n-crgcwhc...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I was wondering if it could be starter winding resistance going up with heat. Mitch. Curt Raymond wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Curt Raymond wrote: Ooooh another thought, whats the rate on slow charge on your charger? On mine its 2a. Group 49 batteries at 900-1100cca but that doesn't tell us the long term capacity. I was thinking 135 minutes at 25A. Interstate says 130 minutes for Megatron MT-49. http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_eStore/content/product_info/auto_interstate_f.asp Figure somewhere around 1500-2000 minutes at 2A for a full charge from near dead. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
That's half way down, not all the way down! I wouldn't concentrate on the GPs so much... in warm weather, especially with a block heater, glowing until the relay clicks and cranking for a while should be more than enough. An addition, the engine should be turning over pretty quickly if its warmed up by the heater. If not, clean you battery ground cable on both sides. If its corroded, it makes a big difference. Jaime On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: Thanks for all the help, guys! To address all the advice and questions at once: - Jamie asked about the block heater. Great idea. It is an '87 so has the factory block heater, and I have the cable, just never bothered to hook it up. Right now the car is sitting on grass at an angle, so it's not exactly the best place to jack it up to get underneath and install the cable, but I'll see if I can tow it into my driveway and do that. - Jamie and Peter asked about holding the accelerator down all the way, and about repeatedly glowing while cranking. I'm doing both, essentially following a cold-weather start procedure. Hold the pedal down, turn key to glow position, make sure the glow light is on, wait until I hear the relay click off, crank for fifteen seconds or so, turn the key off, glow again, crank again, etc. If the glow light is on, doesn't that mean I'm getting power to the GPs? I will check for voltage there, regardless. What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? - Loren and others mentioned air flow. The air filter's clean and there's no sign of mouse or wasp activity on either side of it. As far as the other end, I never heard of mice or anything else clogging an exhaust, but I'll have someone else crank while I feel at the tailpipe for air movement. There isn't any smoke coming out while cranking, but I can definitely smell unburned Diesel Purge (which is what I filled the new main filter with when I changed it). - Walt and Peter mentioned battery condition. The battery is new and it's been on a Schumacher charger which has both slow charge and jump start modes. I've been leaving it on slow charge mode overnight, then flipping the switch to jump start and leaving it there for half a minute before trying to start the car. I've also tried hooking up another running car with a healthy electrical system so that the two batteries are working in parallel. That didn't seem to make any difference. - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-photo-sensor-tachometer-66632.html - Loren described a definitive test for air leaks in the fuel lines. I'll do that. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I second the pull start at this point. nbsp;It will eliminate intake, exhaust, and fuel as the issue. nbsp;Then it could be electrical. Luther On Aug 17, 2011 12:32 PM, Curt Raymond lt;curtlud...@yahoo.comgt; wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:56:13 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain lt;apchamberl...@gmail.comgt; To: Mercedes Discussion List lt;mercedes@okiebenz.comgt; Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever Message-ID: lt;CABHyH=b20kg156tj-+sr4rr4gdhj4py4i8dme1n-crgcwhc...@mail.gmail.comgt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Curt Raymond lt;curtlud...@yahoo.comgt; wrote: gt; Should stink of fuel too while you're trying. It does. gt; gt; Have you tried jumping the car off another while cranking? Yep, no difference. gt; How long is a long time cranking? A good battery ought to be able to crank for a gt; solid minute anyway. It can go about fifteen seconds steadily before it begins to slow down. I'm guessing that means good compression (since otherwise the starter wouldn't be fighting so hard to turn the engine)? Or could it mean clogged exhaust? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.co ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Curt Raymond wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. I think I would rig 24V to spin the starter. *CAUTION* This requires being ABSOLUTELY SURE that none of the 24V gets to any other electrical system in the car. But I don't have an easy time getting a reliable helper. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Oh thats a pretty bad idea IMO. Much better off running in parallel for extended run time. Not to mention burning out the starter. The motoroam has a 24v starter its 2x the size of the 617 started which is already huge to me. -Rolf On 08/17/2011 03:20 PM, Fmiser wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. I think I would rig 24V to spin the starter. *CAUTION* This requires being ABSOLUTELY SURE that none of the 24V gets to any other electrical system in the car. But I don't have an easy time getting a reliable helper. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. DO NOT tow start it, apply 24V, or any other tricks. This is not a car that has sat for 20 years!! Step back over the basics and review all your work. Remove the filter, check all the o rings, check the seals, make sure its full of fuel. Something simple is wrong here. Jaime On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think it means a bad battery, should be 30+ seconds before it slows down noticeably. Could be a bad starter the slows down as it warms up? Either way if it were my car and I could get a reliable helper (not always that easy) I'd be up for a tow start at this point. I think I would rig 24V to spin the starter. *CAUTION* This requires being ABSOLUTELY SURE that none of the 24V gets to any other electrical system in the car. But I don't have an easy time getting a reliable helper. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Thanks for all the help, guys! To address all the advice and questions at once: - Jamie asked about the block heater. Great idea. It is an '87 so has the factory block heater, and I have the cable, just never bothered to hook it up. Right now the car is sitting on grass at an angle, so it's not exactly the best place to jack it up to get underneath and install the cable, but I'll see if I can tow it into my driveway and do that. - Jamie and Peter asked about holding the accelerator down all the way, and about repeatedly glowing while cranking. I'm doing both, essentially following a cold-weather start procedure. Hold the pedal down, turn key to glow position, make sure the glow light is on, wait until I hear the relay click off, crank for fifteen seconds or so, turn the key off, glow again, crank again, etc. If the glow light is on, doesn't that mean I'm getting power to the GPs? I will check for voltage there, regardless. What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? Just check for voltage at the GP terminals. If it is not 11.5V then you have a problem. It is more likely on or off. If there is no voltage, then change the fuse or relay. - Loren and others mentioned air flow. The air filter's clean and there's no sign of mouse or wasp activity on either side of it. As far as the other end, I never heard of mice or anything else clogging an exhaust, but I'll have someone else crank while I feel at the tailpipe for air movement. There isn't any smoke coming out while cranking, but I can definitely smell unburned Diesel Purge (which is what I filled the new main filter with when I changed it). No smoke is a bad sign. Seems like lack of fuel. Back to checking for bubbles on the discharge side of the fuel filter. - Walt and Peter mentioned battery condition. The battery is new and it's been on a Schumacher charger which has both slow charge and jump start modes. I've been leaving it on slow charge mode overnight, then flipping the switch to jump start and leaving it there for half a minute before trying to start the car. I've also tried hooking up another running car with a healthy electrical system so that the two batteries are working in parallel. That didn't seem to make any difference. - Peter suggested a dying starter that isn't turning quite fast enough. The car sounds like it is cranking at the usual speed, but I could be deceived, I guess. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Could I use a non-contact tachometer on one of the pulleys while cranking? Harbor freight has one for $30: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-photo-sensor-tachometer-66632.html - Loren described a definitive test for air leaks in the fuel lines. I'll do that. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If you smell warm wiring at 30seconds, something is loose or worn in the wiring. nbsp;Check ALL connections from the battery to the starter. nbsp;Do this before condemning the starter Luther On Aug 17, 2011 5:40 PM, Alex Chamberlain lt;apchamberl...@gmail.comgt; wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jaime Kopchinski lt;jaime...@gmail.comgt; wrote: gt; Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on gt; here. gt; This was a running car before the filter change, right? gt; Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. It was running a year ago. Loren's right that I should've tried to start it before changing the filters, but no use crying over spilt diesel. The basic facts are that it ran fine when parked as the expression goes, I changed the filters, put in a new battery, and now it won't start. Sounds like the leading theories are: - Bad or not fully charged battery---It's new, and I'll leave it on the charger for two days before I try again. - GPs not getting power---easy check. - Not cranking long enough---I tried cranking for longer than 15 seconds. The engine slowed down at around 20 seconds, but then started catching periodically just like it has been before (firing two or three times and then just cranking). At about 30 seconds I quit because there was the unmistakable smell of overheated wiring coming from the driver's side of the engine near the firewall---isn't that where the starter is? If I try again with a battery that is fully charged, and the starter still slows down noticeably after 15 seconds, then does that definitively mean the starter is failing (increased current draw as it heats up)? - Air leaks, meaning no fuel delivery to injectors despite seeing fuel at the return line on the filter and at the hard lines when either is loosened---I can smell the exhaust after cranking a while, but it really doesn't smoke to speak of, although I find unburned diesel smoke is harder to see on a warm clear day. I will take out the fuel filter center bolt and make sure that the o-rings are where they should be, and also check for air leaks elsewhere. Could airflow be obstructed on the exhaust side? I don't know how I would begin to check for that beyond sticking a wire or something up the tailpipe to dislodge wasp or mouse nests. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.comnbsp; ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: If you smell warm wiring at 30seconds, something is loose or worn in the wiring. Check ALL connections from the battery to the starter. Do this before condemning the starter Ugh. OK, I'll drag out the electrical diagrams. But if I see battery voltage at the starter terminals when cranking, isn't that a pretty sure check? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It has been suggested to by pass the fuel tank and filter by using a clean container and a piece of fuel hose. Whether this has been done or not, I do not know. Perhaps the shut off mechanism is stuck. Hendrik who is off to pick up a machine from machine hospital Jaime Kopchinski wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... lets just take a step back now and look at whats going on here. This was a running car before the filter change, right? Now, with a new filter, it doesn't run any more. DO NOT tow start it, apply 24V, or any other tricks. This is not a car that has sat for 20 years!! Step back over the basics and review all your work. Remove the filter, check all the o rings, check the seals, make sure its full of fuel. Something simple is wrong here. Jaime ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
What's the easiest, safest way to bypass the GP relay and power the GPs directly off the battery? Run a fat wire from the positive terminal to the GP fuse? Isn't a good one. That fuse is 'hot' all the time. The internal relay contacts are what you'd need to assert. What's a good way to tell if the starter is healthy, other than dropping $250 on a new one? Measure the current draw, a clamp-on DC ammeter is very handy for these kinds of questions. Compare to known good car. I'd pull-start it at this point. Amazing how a bat to the head like that gets the engine's attention. If _that_ won't do it you know you have a real problem, and it saves all kinds of wear and tear on the battery and starter. My brother and I dragged our Moline tractor for a mile or two trying to pull-start it. Which it did, after we put gas in it! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It can only crank for 15 seconds before slowing down significantly. Defective battery? (It's brand new, NAPA's mid-priced line.) Group 49? 15 seconds is sucky. Defective charger? (I'll try one of my Battery Tenders instead of the Schumacher.) What else? Defective starter? Can measure current draw (DC clamp-on ammeter) to determine this. Bad heavy wiring, either power or ground strap? Can measure voltage drop between battery post and other end at starter while starting, the drop in the wires thus measured should be small. Also measure battery voltage while starting. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
That starter will draw 900 amps on a cold engine -- if the battery won't crank it full speed for more than 15 sec it's not big enough. As Jim said, but really must be a new series 49 battery. Others will fit, but you need the deep cycle characteristics and high current draw capability of a series 49 to start one up. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I wouldn't go too far with electrical detail, if it's a new battery of proper size I would think it will be obvious - starter wire to chassis or the like. I would bet you can feel a hot wire, then figure out where it's shorting. Another possibility - I had a bad battery connection in my Volvo, it was enough for low currents but would barely conduct at high. Messing around with the battery cables caused it to start, eventually I pulled back the insulation and the wire fell in half with just a few stands remaining. Only real clue was that the wire was easy to bend at a certain point. A clue might be if the battery was at a pretty high voltage after a marathon starting session. Best, -Tim On Aug 17, 2011 7:38 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: If you smell warm wiring at 30seconds, something is loose or worn in the wiring. Check ALL connections from the battery to the starter. Do this before condemning the starter Ugh. OK, I'll drag out the electrical diagrams. But if I see battery voltage at the starter terminals when cranking, isn't that a pretty sure check? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I've had starting problems due to a poor connection on the chassis end of the grounding strap between the engine and the chassis, but this was on the 115 chassis cars. I cleaned and re-assembled with new bolts (on the chassis end), and added a second strap on the other side of the engine. Never had a problem again. YMMV. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: I wouldn't go too far with electrical detail, if it's a new battery of proper size I would think it will be obvious - starter wire to chassis or the like. I would bet you can feel a hot wire, then figure out where it's shorting. Another possibility - I had a bad battery connection in my Volvo, it was enough for low currents but would barely conduct at high. Messing around with the battery cables caused it to start, eventually I pulled back the insulation and the wire fell in half with just a few stands remaining. Only real clue was that the wire was easy to bend at a certain point. A clue might be if the battery was at a pretty high voltage after a marathon starting session. Best, -Tim On Aug 17, 2011 7:38 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: If you smell warm wiring at 30seconds, something is loose or worn in the wiring. Check ALL connections from the battery to the starter. Do this before condemning the starter Ugh. OK, I'll drag out the electrical diagrams. But if I see battery voltage at the starter terminals when cranking, isn't that a pretty sure check? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Alex Chamberlain wrote: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: If you smell warm wiring at 30seconds, something is loose or worn in the wiring. Check ALL connections from the battery to the starter. Do this before condemning the starter Ugh. OK, I'll drag out the electrical diagrams. But if I see battery voltage at the starter terminals when cranking, isn't that a pretty sure check? The voltage _drop_ across the battery-to-starter cable is a good indication of current draw, which can be a clue for starter condition. I haven't ever tested a good 60x engine, so I don't know what is normal for that system. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Disable the glow system and give her some WD-40 into the intake. Safer than ether, should still get her running. At least it works with a 617. Walt On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Make sure the glow plugs are working. Glow again when it starts to sputter. Typically it will run on a few cylinders, stopping if you let off the starter, then gradually hit more and more and eventually run by itself. You won't overheat the starter if it's firing on a couple cylinders, it's not working very hard. Is there white smoke rolling out the exhaust? Should be if there is fuel delivery. You can try bypassing the fuel preheater -- switch the suction line directly to the lift pump. Replace the hoses if not new. You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. You may have a weak starter. They usually croak on a 603 by locking up solid, but it could be cranking slow. Minimum is 100 rprn, you should have better than that. Won't start otherwise, and you can crank til the end of time with a slow starter and nothing will happen. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Have you tried this start process with diesel purge from just under the hood? nbsp; Are you in a situation where you can pull start it? nbsp;If it won't pull start, then fuel blockage/leakage is the problem. All a diesel needs is fuel and air to run...wait, have you checked to make sure nothing made a nest in your air intake? Luther On Aug 16, 2011 9:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain lt;apchamberl...@gmail.comgt; wrote: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead lt;126die...@gmail.comgt; wrote: gt; As for Alex, gt; 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. gt; 2. nbsp;crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line gt; form the nozzles. gt; 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. gt; 4. close the return lines gt; 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. gt; 6. nbsp;when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. gt; 7. nbsp;Crank it again. gt; gt; If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel gt; lines. nbsp;It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I second the check on cranking RPM, my 617 gets stage anxiety whenever the battery dips below full charge. Might be that the battery is jst old enough that it can't get the starter enough juice to do a good start when there's some entrained air in the system. Walt, who's been there, seen that, changed battery and had the problem go away on a 617 NA On Aug 16, 2011 10:52 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Make sure the glow plugs are working. Glow again when it starts to sputter. Typically it will run on a few cylinders, stopping if you let off the starter, then gradually hit more and more and eventually run by itself. You won't overheat the starter if it's firing on a couple cylinders, it's not working very hard. Is there white smoke rolling out the exhaust? Should be if there is fuel delivery. You can try bypassing the fuel preheater -- switch the suction line directly to the lift pump. Replace the hoses if not new. You can also check for air leaks by removing the return line from the steel line and putting it in a can partially filled with fuel and have someone crank the engine -- if you get lots of bubbles, you have an air leak on the suction side. You may have a weak starter. They usually croak on a 603 by locking up solid, but it could be cranking slow. Minimum is 100 rprn, you should have better than that. Won't start otherwise, and you can crank til the end of time with a slow starter and nothing will happen. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
How did you get to this point? I forget the back story. Are you flooring the accelerator while cranking? You've got fuel, now there's air and heat. I agree with checking for clear air intake, don't forget exhaust is the second half of the breathing. I think a pull start may be in order. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
A pull start is more dangerous (to the car) than having the battery tested at the FLAPS. When in doubt, put the charger on the boost setting, wait 1 to 2 minutes, then start cranking. It's worked for me every time. Walt On Aug 17, 2011 12:26 AM, Max Dillon meadedil...@bellsouth.net wrote: How did you get to this point? I forget the back story. Are you flooring the accelerator while cranking? You've got fuel, now there's air and heat. I agree with checking for clear air intake, don't forget exhaust is the second half of the breathing. I think a pull start may be in order. Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Once you have fuel at #6, the bleeding is done. From there on, it is let the nozzles fill up, and then they should deliver fuel. A diesel needs fuel, air to compress, and compression to run when hot. on prechamber engines, when cold, they need heat. In order to get enough compression, the starter has to turn fast enough. It is still possible that a leak is allowing air into the fuel. (Check for bubbles as in a prior post.) It is possible that the glow relay went bad, or the fuse is bad but looks ok. That would take out the required heat. (check for voltage at the glow plugs.) Air obstruction. (check for obstructions between air intake and the crossover pipe after the turbo.) (don't drop a socket in the turbo) Several things can lead to poor compression. rust forming on valves and seats, (or cylinder walls) during the dormancy. wear/age, slow turning starter. Take the other suggestions posted today, organize them under fuel, air, compression, and heat and go through the list. There is a reason. We just don't know yet what it is. I think air leakage in fuel lines, no voltage to the GPs, and rust are most likely problems. Someone a year or so ago had a leak after changing filters, and it turned out to be an oring on the fuel filter big bolt letting air into the system. In the future, before working on a dormant engine, start it up first, and let it run a few hours, then change filters and fluids. That way, rust can be cleaned up, and you will have proven the starter/battery system is ok. On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. Well, I have followed steps 1-7 three times. Each time I get fuel at steps 3 and 6. Each time I've cranked the car until the battery ran down three or four times, putting it on the charger overnight between tries. Still no start. It will sound like three or four cylinders are firing irregularly, but never quite enough to turn under its own power. The battery is fresh and I can hear that it's turning plenty fast enough when first cranked. So that makes a total of about a dozen serious attempts at starting since changing the filters. At this point I feel like I'm just killing the starter. I don't see any sign of leaky lines. How would I test for air leaks too small to see easily? I thought of the glow plugs, but they are only a few years old (replaced when the #16 head blew). Resistance at the GP relay connector is 0.5 ohm between the terminal and ground for all six terminals. I don't have a VOM with a wide enough DC amp range to test the current draw, but I know that at least some current is being pulled by the fact that the interior lights dim and the pitch of the key-in buzzer goes lower when the key is in glow position (and the idiot light comes on steady). Help! I am about ready to push this car off a cliff (if I could get it started to drive it close enough). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Yes, the shutoff tested good, but the engine didn't shut down. Changed the shutoff, and it is fine now. As for Alex, 1. crack the inj. lines at the injectors. 2. crack the return banjo fitting at the filter, or slip off the small line form the nozzles. 3. crank until you get fuel at the return line. 4. close the return lines 5. crank until you get fuel at the nozzles. On an OM 60x, you may get a spray if you only crack the nozzle 1/4 turn or so. Any more, and you will only get a weak dribble. The 60x is not like the 61x engines, where the pump puts out a lot of fuel each pump stroke. 6. when you get fuel at the injectors, close the lines. 7. Crank it again. If you don't get fuel at step 3, then search for air leaks in the fuel lines. It is usually deteriorated rubber hose, but can be rust too. I think Loren just had that issue with one of his fleet, but it was a won't shut off issue vice a won't start issue. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Alex Chamberlain Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 3:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Also check to make sure the shut-off lever popped up -- if it's stuck down, it's not gonna start, ever! How would it get stuck down? Never seen that. Is that a consequence of improper installation of the shutoff unit, or is it a failure mode that can happen spontaneously with the part in place? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:25 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: I thinl I was wrong about the vacuum line to the shut-off valve - no vacuum = running, you have to allpy vacuum to stop the engine, though I could still be wrong, now I can't remember which way it is. Um, yeah. :) The other way around would be a little bit of a safety issue---a vacuum line comes loose in the doors and suddenly the engine dies? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:25 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: What Luther said -- crack all the lines, have someone else crank the engine (starting with a known good, fully charged battery). Close the lines one-by-one as you see fuel coming out. You will hear the cylinders firing as you close the lines. It will probably run by it's self once you close four lines, then the last two will be getting enough fuel to close them immediately. OK. Tried this morning. The battery I have is not in great shape, but enough to crank the car for thirty seconds continuously before it starts to sound slow. I cracked the lines at the IP and cranked for a while. I didn't hear any of the cylinders fire, but when I got out and looked the lines were definitely dribbling nice clean diesel. I tightened the lines back up, gave the battery half an hour on the charger, and then cranked again. The car fired on three or four cylinders, sounded like it was about to start, then the battery ran down again. (Then I had to go to work.) Sound like I'm on the right track? Re the shutoff valve issue: the shutoff valve cuts off fuel, not air, right? So the fact that I saw fuel dribbling after cranking with the lines cracked open, means that I can rule out a shutoff valve jammed in the stop position, right? Or not? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
You are on the right track, so keep going with that process as it sounds like a normal low fuel start and the shutoff is working correctly. nbsp;Hopefully you are charging the battery while at work, yes? nbsp;It should start and run under its own power next time. nbsp;Keep the pedal to the floor until the RPMs start to rise rapidly abovenbsp;2000-2500... nbsp; Luther On Aug 4, 2011 10:59 AM, Alex Chamberlain lt;apchamberl...@gmail.comgt; wrote: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:25 PM, OK Don lt;okd...@gmail.comgt; wrote: gt; What Luther said -- crack all the lines, have someone else crank the engine gt; (starting with a known good, fully charged battery). Close the lines gt; one-by-one as you see fuel coming out. You will hear the cylinders firing as gt; you close the lines. It will probably run by it's self once you close four gt; lines, then the last two will be getting enough fuel to close them gt; immediately. gt; OK. Tried this morning. The battery I have is not in great shape, but enough to crank the car for thirty seconds continuously before it starts to sound slow. I cracked the lines at the IP and cranked for a while. I didn't hear any of the cylinders fire, but when I got out and looked the lines were definitely dribbling nice clean diesel. I tightened the lines back up, gave the battery half an hour on the charger, and then cranked again. The car fired on three or four cylinders, sounded like it was about to start, then the battery ran down again. (Then I had to go to work.) Sound like I'm on the right track? Re the shutoff valve issue: the shutoff valve cuts off fuel, not air, right? So the fact that I saw fuel dribbling after cranking with the lines cracked open, means that I can rule out a shutoff valve jammed in the stop position, right? Or not? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: You are on the right track, so keep going with that process as it sounds like a normal low fuel start and the shutoff is working correctly. nbsp;Hopefully you are charging the battery while at work, yes? nbsp;It should start and run under its own power next time. nbsp;Keep the pedal to the floor until the RPMs start to rise rapidly abovenbsp;2000-2500... nbsp; Excellent. Thanks for the help, Luther, Don and everyone else. I have been holding the pedal all the way down when cranking, as if I were doing a cold-weather start. The battery is indeed on the charger so hopefully she'll start tonight. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Cranking speed is very important. If your battery is not holding a good charge then that could be a lot of your problem. Mike On Aug 4, 2011 12:17 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Luther's Benz benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: You are on the right track, so keep going with that process as it sounds like a normal low fuel start and the shutoff is working correctly. nbsp;Hopefully you are charging the battery while at work, yes? nbsp;It should start and run under its own power next time. nbsp;Keep the pedal to the floor until the RPMs start to rise rapidly abovenbsp;2000-2500... nbsp; Excellent. Thanks for the help, Luther, Don and everyone else. I have been holding the pedal all the way down when cranking, as if I were doing a cold-weather start. The battery is indeed on the charger so hopefully she'll start tonight. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I'd crack the injection lines on top on the injectors to make sure they are getting fuel when you crank. That will let the air out. -Dave Walton On Aug 3, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: So my '87 300D was sitting since early last winter and I was worried about bugs growing in the fuel tank. I put a dose of Biobor HF in the tank in the proportion recommended on the bottle for algae shock treatment (1/2 oz for 20 gal, IIRC). I changed both fuel filters, losing quite a bit of fuel in the process, but I did fill up the middle of the canister filter with Diesel Purge before putting it on. I have run the battery down four or five times trying to get the thing to start again. Each time it will fire once or twice every second, but mostly just crank without anything happening. Kind of like rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta rrr rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta etc. Do I have to drain the tank and look at the screen now? The inline filter is clear. What else could be wrong? Or do I just have to keep trying until all the air that was introduced into the fuel system when I opened it is all purged? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Dave Walton walton.d...@gmail.com wrote: I'd crack the injection lines on top on the injectors to make sure they are getting fuel when you crank. That will let the air out. Might be a dumb question, but if I do that and I get fuel dribbling out at all injectors, can I rule out a fuel blockage in the tank or elsewhere? My two big worries right now are the possibility of having to clean the tank screen, and some kind of contamination inside the IP preventing proper fuel delivery. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If fuel is only dribbling out, you have a blockage or air in the lines. It should spray out of the fitting and pour down the injectors, quite a bit. just small drips means no fuel in the IP. I always change the filters hot on these cars, still have to crank quite a bit. I would take the main filter off and fill it completely with fresh fuel, not just the center part. Takes forever for that lift pump to fill it. If the pre-filter filled up properly when you started cranking, it's unlikely you have a fuel blockage. Also check to make sure the shut-off lever popped up -- if it's stuck down, it's not gonna start, ever! Peter -Original Message- From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com Sent: Aug 3, 2011 12:24 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Dave Walton walton.d...@gmail.com wrote: I'd crack the injection lines on top on the injectors to make sure they are getting fuel when you crank. That will let the air out. Might be a dumb question, but if I do that and I get fuel dribbling out at all injectors, can I rule out a fuel blockage in the tank or elsewhere? My two big worries right now are the possibility of having to clean the tank screen, and some kind of contamination inside the IP preventing proper fuel delivery. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I don't agree with that, I think the fuel will just dribble, that has been my experience. Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: If fuel is only dribbling out, you have a blockage or air in the lines. It should spray out of the fitting and pour down the injectors, quite a bit. just small drips means no fuel in the IP. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Max Dillon meadedil...@bellsouth.net wrote: I don't agree with that, I think the fuel will just dribble, that has been my experience. That's my experience with diesels other than Benzes (the Shindaiwa that powers my whole-house generator). Luckily it has a manual primer pump---the procedure after changing the fuel filter is to crack #1 injector line and twiddle the primer lever until fuel dribbles out, then tighten the line and crank again---if that doesn't work, I've found that I can leave the line cracked open and then crank until fuel comes out (but it's never more than a dribble). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Maybe disconnecting the fuel supply line and sticking it in a bottle of diesel would rule out a clogged tank screen?. -Dave Walton On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Max Dillon meadedil...@bellsouth.net wrote: I don't agree with that, I think the fuel will just dribble, that has been my experience. That's my experience with diesels other than Benzes (the Shindaiwa that powers my whole-house generator). Luckily it has a manual primer pump---the procedure after changing the fuel filter is to crack #1 injector line and twiddle the primer lever until fuel dribbles out, then tighten the line and crank again---if that doesn't work, I've found that I can leave the line cracked open and then crank until fuel comes out (but it's never more than a dribble). Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
If you just now gave it the dose and changed the filters and lost a lot of fuel, I'd say the odds are good that your screen/tank are fine, or you wouldn't have lost the fuel. Pull start time? Max -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: So my '87 300D was sitting since early last winter and I was worried about bugs growing in the fuel tank. I put a dose of Biobor HF in the tank in the proportion recommended on the bottle for algae shock treatment (1/2 oz for 20 gal, IIRC). I changed both fuel filters, losing quite a bit of fuel in the process, but I did fill up the middle of the canister filter with Diesel Purge before putting it on. I have run the battery down four or five times trying to get the thing to start again. Each time it will fire once or twice every second, but mostly just crank without anything happening. Kind of like rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta rrr rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta etc. Do I have to drain the tank and look at the screen now? The inline filter is clear. What else could be wrong? Or do I just have to keep trying until all the air that was introduced into the fuel system when I opened it is all purged? Alex _ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Also check to make sure the shut-off lever popped up -- if it's stuck down, it's not gonna start, ever! How would it get stuck down? Never seen that. Is that a consequence of improper installation of the shutoff unit, or is it a failure mode that can happen spontaneously with the part in place? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
I think Loren just had that issue with one of his fleet, but it was a won't shut off issue vice a won't start issue. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Alex Chamberlain Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 3:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Also check to make sure the shut-off lever popped up -- if it's stuck down, it's not gonna start, ever! How would it get stuck down? Never seen that. Is that a consequence of improper installation of the shutoff unit, or is it a failure mode that can happen spontaneously with the part in place? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Try starting it on diesel purge only. Bypass the pre-filter and crack every injector line and close them off as you see the fuel dribble out. If you crack them 1/8-1/4 turn, the fuel will only dribble or squeeze out where the pipe goes in the nut. When you were trying to start it, did you hold the pedal to the floor? In my experience starting my OM603 after running out of fuel, it takes a LONG time to get the fuel from the tankalmost to the point of running the battery down, even on a warm day. Make sure you have a fully charged battery next time you try starting it. Luther KB5QHUForest Park, IL '87 300SDL (312,xxx mi) '91 Dodge Ram 150 (290,xxx mi) On 8/3/2011 11:59 AM, Alex Chamberlain wrote: So my '87 300D was sitting since early last winter and I was worried about bugs growing in the fuel tank. I put a dose of Biobor HF in the tank in the proportion recommended on the bottle for algae shock treatment (1/2 oz for 20 gal, IIRC). I changed both fuel filters, losing quite a bit of fuel in the process, but I did fill up the middle of the canister filter with Diesel Purge before putting it on. I have run the battery down four or five times trying to get the thing to start again. Each time it will fire once or twice every second, but mostly just crank without anything happening. Kind of like rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta rrr rrr rrr rrr rrr klatta etc. Do I have to drain the tank and look at the screen now? The inline filter is clear. What else could be wrong? Or do I just have to keep trying until all the air that was introduced into the fuel system when I opened it is all purged? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
It would get stuck down if the vacuum line was accidentaly knocked off the actuator. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net wrote: Also check to make sure the shut-off lever popped up -- if it's stuck down, it's not gonna start, ever! How would it get stuck down? Never seen that. Is that a consequence of improper installation of the shutoff unit, or is it a failure mode that can happen spontaneously with the part in place? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
What Luther said -- crack all the lines, have someone else crank the engine (starting with a known good, fully charged battery). Close the lines one-by-one as you see fuel coming out. You will hear the cylinders firing as you close the lines. It will probably run by it's self once you close four lines, then the last two will be getting enough fuel to close them immediately. I thinl I was wrong about the vacuum line to the shut-off valve - no vacuum = running, you have to allpy vacuum to stop the engine, though I could still be wrong, now I can't remember which way it is. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Benz Hogs benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: Try starting it on diesel purge only. Bypass the pre-filter and crack every injector line and close them off as you see the fuel dribble out. If you crack them 1/8-1/4 turn, the fuel will only dribble or squeeze out where the pipe goes in the nut. When you were trying to start it, did you hold the pedal to the floor? In my experience starting my OM603 after running out of fuel, it takes a LONG time to get the fuel from the tankalmost to the point of running the battery down, even on a warm day. Make sure you have a fully charged battery next time you try starting it. Luther KB5QHUForest Park, IL '87 300SDL (312,xxx mi) '91 Dodge Ram 150 (290,xxx mi) To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 603 filter change, cranking forever
Vacuum = shutoff ambient air pressure = run BUT, the shutoff can get stuck. Take the vacuum line off and carefully blow pressure into the line to make sure it's not hungup... Luther KB5QHUOak Park, IL '87 300SDL (312,xxx mi) '91 Dodge Ram 150 (290,xxx mi) On 8/3/2011 10:25 PM, OK Don wrote: What Luther said -- crack all the lines, have someone else crank the engine (starting with a known good, fully charged battery). Close the lines one-by-one as you see fuel coming out. You will hear the cylinders firing as you close the lines. It will probably run by it's self once you close four lines, then the last two will be getting enough fuel to close them immediately. I thinl I was wrong about the vacuum line to the shut-off valve - no vacuum = running, you have to allpy vacuum to stop the engine, though I could still be wrong, now I can't remember which way it is. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Benz Hogsbenz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote: Try starting it on diesel purge only. Bypass the pre-filter and crack every injector line and close them off as you see the fuel dribble out. If you crack them 1/8-1/4 turn, the fuel will only dribble or squeeze out where the pipe goes in the nut. When you were trying to start it, did you hold the pedal to the floor? In my experience starting my OM603 after running out of fuel, it takes a LONG time to get the fuel from the tankalmost to the point of running the battery down, even on a warm day. Make sure you have a fully charged battery next time you try starting it. Luther KB5QHUForest Park, IL '87 300SDL (312,xxx mi) '91 Dodge Ram 150 (290,xxx mi) To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
