Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[MG]

Yup that's the baby except in stainless and with the full ovens on the 
bottom not just a cook top.


Manfred




Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:10:21 -0400
From: Rich Thomas 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

http://www.mrsgs.com/product.asp?pID=65926&cID=33

MG wrote:
> Yeah but think about having 4 burners and a grill for steaks and a
> griddle to do the bacon, eggs and pancakes and two ovens. Got to have
> one of those. It will be in the new house when I get done, as well as
> a big honkin hood over it. Whats a few pennies compared to that kind
> of tool. I may even gain some weight. 145 soaking wet is just too light.
>
> Manfred
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[MG]

Interesting ideas. I wonder what they would do around here if someone 
were to do that.


Manfred



Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:38:36 -0500
From: Wonko the Sane 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war


Yea, same thing I was going to say. Here, folks put their sheds on skids
(think a couple of pressure treated 2x10 skis) -- it isn't a permanent
structure and isn't taxed as part of the real estate. Plus, you can move it
to a different part of the back yard if the fancy strikes, if you round off
the skids before you mount the shed onto them.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Jim Cathey  wrote:

>
>>
> Put it on a set of wheels.  Not a permanent structure, no permits,
> no extra taxes.  (Though such sheds shouldn't be considered permanent
> structures anyway since they have no foundation.)
>
> -- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Allan Streib wrote:

Here, an in-ground swimming pool will get taxed.  An above-ground will
not. 


Same here. If you've got one of those fancy above ground pools with a deep end, 
that's taxable too, because you had to excavate and can't just roll it up and 
stuff it in the garage for the winter.


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

Mitch Haley  writes:

> That's the way it works around here. Set it on the ground and it's not
> a 'structure'. Pour a floor for it and it's a taxable structure. Tie
> it down with cables and ground screws, and then you'll find out how
> far the local gov't is willing to push the definition of 'permanent
> structure'.

Here, an in-ground swimming pool will get taxed.  An above-ground will
not.  I've seen people completely surround an above-ground pool with
decking; it almost looks like an in-ground pool that way but does not
hit your tax bill (though I guess maybe the deck does).

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

[...]

And you're working for no one but me.

-- The Beatles


Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Rich Thomas]

http://www.mrsgs.com/product.asp?pID=65926&cID=33

MG wrote:
Yeah but think about having 4 burners and a grill for steaks and a 
griddle to do the bacon, eggs and pancakes and two ovens. Got to have 
one of those. It will be in the new house when I get done, as well as 
a big honkin hood over it. Whats a few pennies compared to that kind 
of tool. I may even gain some weight. 145 soaking wet is just too light.


Manfred



Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:36:19 -0500
From: Peter Frederick 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

I didn't need to hear that -- I detest the gas stove my mother bought
some years ago that I am now in charge of, and I don't need any more $
$ temptations right now!

Wolf Stoves, eh?

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Jim Cathey wrote:

(Though such sheds shouldn't be considered permanent
structures anyway since they have no foundation.)


That's the way it works around here. Set it on the ground and it's not a 
'structure'. Pour a floor for it and it's a taxable structure. Tie it down with 
cables and ground screws, and then you'll find out how far the local gov't is 
willing to push the definition of 'permanent structure'.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

Yea, same thing I was going to say. Here, folks put their sheds on skids
(think a couple of pressure treated 2x10 skis) -- it isn't a permanent
structure and isn't taxed as part of the real estate. Plus, you can move it
to a different part of the back yard if the fancy strikes, if you round off
the skids before you mount the shed onto them.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Jim Cathey  wrote:

>
>>
> Put it on a set of wheels.  Not a permanent structure, no permits,
> no extra taxes.  (Though such sheds shouldn't be considered permanent
> structures anyway since they have no foundation.)
>
> -- Jim
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Jim Cathey]

I wish it were like that here. If I want to get a garden shed, you 
know one of those little things that the box stores sell, I got to get 
a permit and get inspections and pay through the nose for the 
privilege as well as paying more taxes because I've improved the 
property and it is now worth more.


Put it on a set of wheels.  Not a permanent structure, no permits,
no extra taxes.  (Though such sheds shouldn't be considered permanent
structures anyway since they have no foundation.)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[MG]

I wish it were like that here. If I want to get a garden shed, you know 
one of those little things that the box stores sell, I got to get a 
permit and get inspections and pay through the nose for the privilege as 
well as paying more taxes because I've improved the property and it is 
now worth more. I want somewhere that hasn't even heard of inspectors.


Manfred



Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:39:40 -0500
From: Wonko the Sane 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war


My experience (12 years) is that neither the local building inspector (part
time) or the gas company checks out what you have in your kitchen -- where I
live. I am sure this is different in more metropolitan areas. But in rural
Iowa, it is not the case. If you're not going to blow up your house (the gas
company's area of inspection) then you are good to go.

I did bring the building inspector in when I built my deck, but that was
more a resident courtesy ($5 fee).

God save me from ever again living where someone can tell me how high my
privacy fence can be (eight feet) or what color my house can be (tan, with
green shutters).


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[MG]

Yeah but think about having 4 burners and a grill for steaks and a 
griddle to do the bacon, eggs and pancakes and two ovens. Got to have 
one of those. It will be in the new house when I get done, as well as a 
big honkin hood over it. Whats a few pennies compared to that kind of 
tool. I may even gain some weight. 145 soaking wet is just too light.


Manfred



Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:36:19 -0500
From: Peter Frederick 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

I didn't need to hear that -- I detest the gas stove my mother bought
some years ago that I am now in charge of, and I don't need any more $
$ temptations right now!

Wolf Stoves, eh?

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

MG  writes:

> Only problem is that commercial stoves are not allowed in residential
> housing according to the new building codes that are in effect in most
> of the US. You can however buy one of those super expensive
> look-a-likes that are made just for residential use. Look up wolf
> stoves.

>From what I've seen, those are just stainless-steel versions of the same
run-of-the-mill consumer-grade ranges.

I do seem to recall reading that folks have gotten waivers from the
local building inspector.  Basically I think the two main issues are
that you need to have sufficient ventilation and sufficient clearance
from combustibles, more than is required for consumer kitchen
appliances.  They MAY also want a fire suppression system, certainly
that is required in a restaurant.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

My experience (12 years) is that neither the local building inspector (part
time) or the gas company checks out what you have in your kitchen -- where I
live. I am sure this is different in more metropolitan areas. But in rural
Iowa, it is not the case. If you're not going to blow up your house (the gas
company's area of inspection) then you are good to go.

I did bring the building inspector in when I built my deck, but that was
more a resident courtesy ($5 fee).

God save me from ever again living where someone can tell me how high my
privacy fence can be (eight feet) or what color my house can be (tan, with
green shutters).

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:35 PM, MG  wrote:

> Only problem is that commercial stoves are not allowed in residential
> housing according to the new building codes that are in effect in most of
> the US. You can however buy one of those super expensive look-a-likes that
> are made just for residential use. Look up wolf stoves.
>
> Manfred
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Peter Frederick]

I didn't need to hear that -- I detest the gas stove my mother bought  
some years ago that I am now in charge of, and I don't need any more $ 
$ temptations right now!


Wolf Stoves, eh?

Peter

On Mar 18, 2009, at 6:35 PM, MG wrote:

Only problem is that commercial stoves are not allowed in  
residential housing according to the new building codes that are in  
effect in most of the US. You can however buy one of those super  
expensive look-a-likes that are made just for residential use. Look  
up wolf stoves.


Manfred



Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:15:16 -0700
From: Redghost 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Don,

you should keep an eye out for local auctions.  There are going to be
a whole passel of them coming along if local conditions are any
indication.

Restaurants and stores are going belly up in record numbers.  Their
equipment hits the auction floors and goes for incredible prices.  The
nice large commercial stoves can be had for under $1k in good
condition.  Lots of other nice stainless goodies to be had as well.
Need a walk in cooler?  Sinks, prep tables, pots and pans?  Goes for
pennies on the dollar.

AS for powering the stove, just ask around for how to change it up so
that you can hook up LP.  Going to take a very large Texas size
propane tank, a few less BTU, but all is good.  Your new pickem up
should be able to haul it all home.

clay

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[MG]

Only problem is that commercial stoves are not allowed in residential 
housing according to the new building codes that are in effect in most 
of the US. You can however buy one of those super expensive look-a-likes 
that are made just for residential use. Look up wolf stoves.


Manfred



Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:15:16 -0700
From: Redghost 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Don,

you should keep an eye out for local auctions.  There are going to be
a whole passel of them coming along if local conditions are any
indication.

Restaurants and stores are going belly up in record numbers.  Their
equipment hits the auction floors and goes for incredible prices.  The
nice large commercial stoves can be had for under $1k in good
condition.  Lots of other nice stainless goodies to be had as well.
Need a walk in cooler?  Sinks, prep tables, pots and pans?  Goes for
pennies on the dollar.

AS for powering the stove, just ask around for how to change it up so
that you can hook up LP.  Going to take a very large Texas size
propane tank, a few less BTU, but all is good.  Your new pickem up
should be able to haul it all home.

clay

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[tyler]

That's not what I was trying to say. I was just observing that 
politicians regularly take credit for adverting past disasters while 
campaigning, and some (not all) of these claims sound dubious.


Tyler

Tom Hargrave wrote:

Ok, so all of the Government initiatives are wrong or misguided? That the
Government should stay completely out of everything.

For example - I don't believe in random drug tests but you are subject to
them as a Federal Employee or contractor. But even though I don't believe in
the tests, I fully expect the State trooper, Airline pilot, Federal Agent
(you pick the agency) to be drug free! Don't you?

BTW, I fundamentally believe in Government but in some cases they are
necessary to protect us from ourselves.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 


-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of tyler
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:53 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

Sure they do, especially for averting fake disasters at enormous effort 
and cost (not to themselves of course). That's exactly what playing off 
people's irrational fears is all about hence the common claims of being 
"tough on (drugs|crime|commies|taxes|people who are somehow different)"


Tyler
  


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

Ok, so all of the Government initiatives are wrong or misguided? That the
Government should stay completely out of everything.

For example - I don't believe in random drug tests but you are subject to
them as a Federal Employee or contractor. But even though I don't believe in
the tests, I fully expect the State trooper, Airline pilot, Federal Agent
(you pick the agency) to be drug free! Don't you?

BTW, I fundamentally believe in Government but in some cases they are
necessary to protect us from ourselves.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of tyler
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:53 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

Sure they do, especially for averting fake disasters at enormous effort 
and cost (not to themselves of course). That's exactly what playing off 
people's irrational fears is all about hence the common claims of being 
"tough on (drugs|crime|commies|taxes|people who are somehow different)"

Tyler

Tom Hargrave wrote:
> I do
> know that politicians never get credit for averting disaster!
>   

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Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.18/2008 - Release Date: 3/17/2009
4:25 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.18/2008 - Release Date: 3/17/2009
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[tyler]

Sure they do, especially for averting fake disasters at enormous effort 
and cost (not to themselves of course). That's exactly what playing off 
people's irrational fears is all about hence the common claims of being 
"tough on (drugs|crime|commies|taxes|people who are somehow different)"


Tyler

Tom Hargrave wrote:

I do
know that politicians never get credit for averting disaster!
  


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Gary Hurst]

i'd be pretty shocked if AIG was still paying a dividend.  if any of our
bailout companies are, i'd expect it to be pretty token.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> Dividends are the worst, isn't that supposed to be the money a company
> thats solvent pays out?
> If you're insolvent, no dividend, makes sense to me...
>
> -Curt
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:23:44 -0500
> From: Peter Frederick 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Message-ID: <74640b70-d980-4cd6-9bd3-cd0a20ef3...@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --
> what about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US
> government?  I, personally, would have reduced all salaries at all
> institutions taking the money, either directly or as payment of
> contracts, to US GS rates as a condition of bailing them out.  No
> profits to anyone, no bonuses, not dividends, nothing until all
> moneys repaid at interest, either.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Curt Raymond]

Anybody else see the movie "Watchmen"? Didja notice that Vietnam was the 51st 
state? Think about Nixon in his 5th term?

I thought the movie was mostly so-so but some of the political commentary was 
pretty funny.

-Curt


ps. Kaleb if you find a strange email sent to "mercedes-requ...@okiebenz.com" 
its because Yahoo is fidding with their system again and now hints email 
addresses based on the first letter of the email address instead of the first 
letter of a nickname. So when I put in "d" it hints me JB Hebert's email 
address (die...@something) instead of this list (which I have nicknamed 
"diesel") so I tried "m" for Mercedes but for some reason it thinks 
"mercedes-request" should come before "mercedes"...

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:43:09 -0400
From: Gary Hurst 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID:
    <8b0e7cce0903180543ua42682fr47fee6d352f36...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

i guess i assume too much thinking you'd grasp my point.

it would seem that hysterical gov't propaganda is generally a lie.  nothing
would happen if we gave up vietnam.  we don't really need to be in a state
of lock down after 9/11 and the a-rabs really aren't targeting your pig farm
in arkansas for terrorist attack.

so unless we give away this money in the next hour all civilization on earth
will instantly and permanently end?

or maybe we have once again been played for the chumps we are?


  
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Curt Raymond]

Compare not a good electric stove to a worn out/dirty gas one...

A good gas stove is MUCH easier to cook with since you can adjust the burner by 
eye and KNOW how much heat you're getting because when you turn the burner down 
its down IMMEDIATELY rather than waiting for the electric burner to cool down...

-Curt

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:22:00 -0700
From: Tyler 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: <230204e2-f2c1-4f55-8151-5052dfe91...@usermail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Why do you want gas rather than electric? I've always had an electric  
stove until 6mo ago when I moved to my current place, with a gas  
stove. It seems to take a lot longer to boil water than all of the  
electric stoves I've had, and I'm a bit worried about ventilation (is  
it safe to use with the hood fan off, and all the windows closed?). I  
suppose it's slightly cheaper to run?

Tyler

On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote:

> 1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
> rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality  
> stove and
> oven.


  
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Curt Raymond]

Dividends are the worst, isn't that supposed to be the money a company thats 
solvent pays out?
If you're insolvent, no dividend, makes sense to me...

-Curt

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:23:44 -0500
From: Peter Frederick 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: <74640b70-d980-4cd6-9bd3-cd0a20ef3...@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --  
what about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US  
government?  I, personally, would have reduced all salaries at all  
institutions taking the money, either directly or as payment of  
contracts, to US GS rates as a condition of bailing them out.  No  
profits to anyone, no bonuses, not dividends, nothing until all  
moneys repaid at interest, either.

Peter


  
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Luther]

he's a lying scumbag politician just like 99% of the people in DC.  Drop 
a nuke on the city and lets start from scratch with the original 
constitution and current amendments.


Luther

Gary Hurst wrote:

if he were honest, obama would have honored his "5 days for the public and
congress to study a bill" before a vote.

but the first chance he got to show us his "change" he did exactly what GWB
did by ramming a huge spending bill down the throats of congress for them to
sign unread.

this really stinks of some kind of nasty fix being in.

--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (183 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Gary Hurst]

if he were honest, obama would have honored his "5 days for the public and
congress to study a bill" before a vote.

but the first chance he got to show us his "change" he did exactly what GWB
did by ramming a huge spending bill down the throats of congress for them to
sign unread.

this really stinks of some kind of nasty fix being in.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Gary,
>
> Oh, I got your point and I remember the Government making statements to
> effect that "if we let Nam fall, the Communist will ..." We know they
> were wrong. And as far as post 911 is concerned, we may never know. I do
> know that politicians never get credit for averting disaster!
>
>
> My economic comments are not been based on our wonderful Government's
> propaganda, they are based on my own beliefs.
>
>
> Our monetary system works because:
>
> 1. The dollar is free flowing through the system.
>
> 2. We believe that the worn out pieces of paper we carry around with us
> have
> some value. Also, the person we trade the piece of paper to also believes
> it
> has some value.
>
>
> And if we had let the major banks fail:
>
> Let the major banks fail and item 1 stops - banks have to move money and
> the
> major banks are the major cash movers in this country. Letting them fail
> would be like taking out the main water mains feeding Atlanta or letting
> Lake Laneer dry up (it almost did, right?). Banks fund everything from the
> seed farmers need to plant in the spring to the food you buy at the grocery
> store.
>
> If this were to happen the Gov would have to react by printing money to
> finance everything - lots & lots of money - far more than they printed for
> the bailout. And since our dollar has no backing except for faith (item 2),
> once excessive printing crossed a critical point other counties would loose
> faith in the American dollar. Then the value of the Dollar would free fall
> &
> the cost of everything would go up just as sharply.
>
> Think this is all just BS? Study your history - the exact same scenario has
> played itself out over & over again in other countries.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:43 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> i guess i assume too much thinking you'd grasp my point.
>
> it would seem that hysterical gov't propaganda is generally a lie.  nothing
> would happen if we gave up vietnam.  we don't really need to be in a state
> of lock down after 9/11 and the a-rabs really aren't targeting your pig
> farm
> in arkansas for terrorist attack.
>
> so unless we give away this money in the next hour all civilization on
> earth
> will instantly and permanently end?
>
> or maybe we have once again been played for the chumps we are?
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
>
> > BZZT - we did!
> >
> > And its not the same, Nam is another country.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom Hargrave
> > www.kegkits.com
> > 256-656-1924
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:
> mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> > On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:31 AM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
> >
> > the same thing that would happen if we let vietnam fall to the commies?
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Tom Hargrave 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and
> > the
> > > spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Tom Hargrave
> > > www.kegkits.com
> > > 256-656-1924
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:
> > mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> > > On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
> > > To: Mercedes Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
> > >
> > > I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
> > > obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut
> > down.
> > > I
> > > think I know the an

Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

Gary,

Oh, I got your point and I remember the Government making statements to
effect that "if we let Nam fall, the Communist will ..." We know they
were wrong. And as far as post 911 is concerned, we may never know. I do
know that politicians never get credit for averting disaster!


My economic comments are not been based on our wonderful Government's
propaganda, they are based on my own beliefs.


Our monetary system works because:

1. The dollar is free flowing through the system.

2. We believe that the worn out pieces of paper we carry around with us have
some value. Also, the person we trade the piece of paper to also believes it
has some value.


And if we had let the major banks fail:

Let the major banks fail and item 1 stops - banks have to move money and the
major banks are the major cash movers in this country. Letting them fail
would be like taking out the main water mains feeding Atlanta or letting
Lake Laneer dry up (it almost did, right?). Banks fund everything from the
seed farmers need to plant in the spring to the food you buy at the grocery
store.

If this were to happen the Gov would have to react by printing money to
finance everything - lots & lots of money - far more than they printed for
the bailout. And since our dollar has no backing except for faith (item 2),
once excessive printing crossed a critical point other counties would loose
faith in the American dollar. Then the value of the Dollar would free fall &
the cost of everything would go up just as sharply.

Think this is all just BS? Study your history - the exact same scenario has
played itself out over & over again in other countries.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:43 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

i guess i assume too much thinking you'd grasp my point.

it would seem that hysterical gov't propaganda is generally a lie.  nothing
would happen if we gave up vietnam.  we don't really need to be in a state
of lock down after 9/11 and the a-rabs really aren't targeting your pig farm
in arkansas for terrorist attack.

so unless we give away this money in the next hour all civilization on earth
will instantly and permanently end?

or maybe we have once again been played for the chumps we are?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> BZZT - we did!
>
> And its not the same, Nam is another country.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:31 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> the same thing that would happen if we let vietnam fall to the commies?
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
>
> > Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and
> the
> > spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom Hargrave
> > www.kegkits.com
> > 256-656-1924
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:
> mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> > On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
> >
> > I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
> > obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut
> down.
> > I
> > think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens
> > under
> > what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government
> buying
> > and administering the assets.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --
> > what
> > > about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US
government?
> > I,
> > > personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking
> > the
> > > money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> > > condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> > > dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed

Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Gary Hurst]

i guess i assume too much thinking you'd grasp my point.

it would seem that hysterical gov't propaganda is generally a lie.  nothing
would happen if we gave up vietnam.  we don't really need to be in a state
of lock down after 9/11 and the a-rabs really aren't targeting your pig farm
in arkansas for terrorist attack.

so unless we give away this money in the next hour all civilization on earth
will instantly and permanently end?

or maybe we have once again been played for the chumps we are?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> BZZT - we did!
>
> And its not the same, Nam is another country.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:31 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> the same thing that would happen if we let vietnam fall to the commies?
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
>
> > Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and
> the
> > spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom Hargrave
> > www.kegkits.com
> > 256-656-1924
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:
> mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> > On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
> >
> > I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
> > obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut
> down.
> > I
> > think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens
> > under
> > what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government
> buying
> > and administering the assets.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --
> > what
> > > about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US government?
> > I,
> > > personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking
> > the
> > > money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> > > condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> > > dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
> >
> http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090317/c0
> >
> 2b03e0/attachment.html<
> http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/a
> ttachments/20090317/c0%0A2b03e0/attachment.html<http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/a%0Attachments/20090317/c0%0A2b03e0/attachment.html>
> >
> > >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
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> > Checked by AVG.
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> > 7:01 PM
> >
> >
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> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date:
> 3/16/2009
> > 7:01 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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> >
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> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebe

Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

BZZT - we did!

And its not the same, Nam is another country.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Gary Hurst
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:31 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

the same thing that would happen if we let vietnam fall to the commies?

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and
the
> spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
> obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut down.
> I
> think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens
> under
> what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government buying
> and administering the assets.
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick
> wrote:
>
> > I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --
> what
> > about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US government?
> I,
> > personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking
> the
> > money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> > condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> > dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <
>
http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090317/c0
>
2b03e0/attachment.html<http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/a
ttachments/20090317/c0%0A2b03e0/attachment.html>
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date:
3/16/2009
> 7:01 PM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date:
3/16/2009
> 7:01 PM
>
>
>
> ___
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.18/2008 - Release Date: 3/17/2009
4:25 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.18/2008 - Release Date: 3/17/2009
4:25 PM
 


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Gary Hurst]

the same thing that would happen if we let vietnam fall to the commies?

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and the
> spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
> obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut down.
> I
> think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens
> under
> what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government buying
> and administering the assets.
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick
> wrote:
>
> > I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --
> what
> > about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US government?
> I,
> > personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking
> the
> > money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> > condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> > dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <
> http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090317/c0
> 2b03e0/attachment.html<http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090317/c0%0A2b03e0/attachment.html>
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date: 3/16/2009
> 7:01 PM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date: 3/16/2009
> 7:01 PM
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Luther]

Instant off, remove pan.

Luther

Tom Hargrave wrote:

I like gas, but all my wife has ever cooked on is electric, so electric it
is.

Benefits of gas?

You have more control over gas
Gas is instant heat
Gas is also instant off

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924


--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (183 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

Tyler  writes:

> Why do you want gas rather than electric? I've always had an electric
> stove until 6mo ago when I moved to my current place, with a gas
> stove. It seems to take a lot longer to boil water than all of the
> electric stoves I've had, and I'm a bit worried about ventilation (is
> it safe to use with the hood fan off, and all the windows closed?). I
> suppose it's slightly cheaper to run?

In a consumer appliance I agree -- electric generally works better.  I
have a gas range now.  It seems that the burner design sends the flame
mostly sideways, towards the edges of the pan, instead of up at the
bottom of the pan.  If the pan is medium or small, most of the heat just
goes out and up the sides.

The best stove I had was a flat-top electric.  Totally sealed surface,
easy to clean.  You did have to use absolutely flat pans though -- any
curvature or warping and they would not contact the surface of the
cooktop and heat transfer would be reduced.

Commercial gas stoves are MUCH hotter than consumer-grade gas OR
electric.  They need larger gas lines and proper exhaust venting for the
heat.  They can be challenging to cook on because they can put out so
much heat -- you really have to pay attention.

Consumer gas stoves do not need to be vented, the only real danger would
be if you had a gas leak.  I don't know if that is true in California,
they seem to think everything causes cancer and I'm surprised you're
allowed to fart in your own bathroom there.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

I like gas, but all my wife has ever cooked on is electric, so electric it
is.

Benefits of gas?

You have more control over gas
Gas is instant heat
Gas is also instant off

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Tyler
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:22 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

Why do you want gas rather than electric? I've always had an electric  
stove until 6mo ago when I moved to my current place, with a gas  
stove. It seems to take a lot longer to boil water than all of the  
electric stoves I've had, and I'm a bit worried about ventilation (is  
it safe to use with the hood fan off, and all the windows closed?). I  
suppose it's slightly cheaper to run?

Tyler

On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote:

> 1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
> rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality  
> stove and
> oven.

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tyler]

Why do you want gas rather than electric? I've always had an electric  
stove until 6mo ago when I moved to my current place, with a gas  
stove. It seems to take a lot longer to boil water than all of the  
electric stoves I've had, and I'm a bit worried about ventilation (is  
it safe to use with the hood fan off, and all the windows closed?). I  
suppose it's slightly cheaper to run?


Tyler

On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote:


1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality  
stove and

oven.


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Redghost]

Don,

you should keep an eye out for local auctions.  There are going to be  
a whole passel of them coming along if local conditions are any  
indication.


Restaurants and stores are going belly up in record numbers.  Their  
equipment hits the auction floors and goes for incredible prices.  The  
nice large commercial stoves can be had for under $1k in good  
condition.  Lots of other nice stainless goodies to be had as well.   
Need a walk in cooler?  Sinks, prep tables, pots and pans?  Goes for  
pennies on the dollar.


AS for powering the stove, just ask around for how to change it up so  
that you can hook up LP.  Going to take a very large Texas size  
propane tank, a few less BTU, but all is good.  Your new pickem up  
should be able to haul it all home.


clay



On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote:


1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality  
stove and

oven. (I am to cooking as you are to brewing brew.)

2 -- I do, however, generate a LOT of gas. Comes with a vegetarian  
diet, I
think, plus lots of cabbage (fried cabbage, boiled cabbage, steamed  
cabbage
-- pot luck at lunch today). ... That is in jest, partly, because I  
eat so
many beans (including soy based products) that if I was inclined to  
gas, I'd
be completely miserable ... or my co-workers would be. Plus, I am an  
officer

so my  doesn't stink.   :-)



On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Tom Hargrave   
wrote:


There is a difference between the Government propping up a viable  
industry

and one who's time has passed. Do you have gas lights in your house?

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924



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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

Naw ... I am thinking more of the Iron Chef sort of thing. The secret
ingredient is ... SOY BURGERS!

I want the Jay Leno's Garage of kitchens. I want the local fire department
standing by (sitting on my deck, drinking beer and smoking cigars, just in
case something goes wrong when I do blackened catfish). I want Bobby Flay to
walk in and say he can't deal with that much cooking power, and has to
cancel due to a previously scheduled root canal.

Does anyone else sense a Walter Mitty moment?

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Wonko the Sane  writes:
>
> You can get 4 burner restaurant range.  They tend to be narrow, though,
> like 24" and the oven might be smaller than you'd like.
>
> See http://www.selectappliance.com/exec/ce-product/ar_ar-4
>
> Allan
> --
> 1983 300D
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

Wonko the Sane  writes:

> I have a huge gas line in the basement that runs up to behind our
> electric range. I'd just have to rip out some cabinets and counters to
> make room for the oversized unit. (Ha ha -- he said unit.) But quite
> frankly, being empty-nesters as we are, I don't really need six or
> eight burners.
>
> We normally don't use all four burners on our stove. We're more into
> raw veggies (especially cauliflower) and crock pot and microwave for
> the Boca stuff. Two burners are plenty for us, except in my fantasies.

You can get 4 burner restaurant range.  They tend to be narrow, though,
like 24" and the oven might be smaller than you'd like.

See http://www.selectappliance.com/exec/ce-product/ar_ar-4

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

I have a huge gas line in the basement that runs up to behind our electric
range. I'd just have to rip out some cabinets and counters to make room for
the oversized unit. (Ha ha -- he said unit.) But quite frankly, being
empty-nesters as we are, I don't really need six or eight burners.

We normally don't use all four burners on our stove. We're more into raw
veggies (especially cauliflower) and crock pot and microwave for the Boca
stuff. Two burners are plenty for us, except in my fantasies.


On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Wonko the Sane  writes:
>
> > 1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
> > rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality stove and
> > oven. (I am to cooking as you are to brewing brew.)
>
> I wanted to get one of those too -- have so far been disuaded because
> they need a gas line that's bigger than most residential installations
> have available, and and they need a GOOD exhaust system to remove the
> heat (a little plastic-fan consumer range hood won't cut it).
>
> Allan
> --
> 1983 300D
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

Wonko the Sane  writes:

> 1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
> rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality stove and
> oven. (I am to cooking as you are to brewing brew.)

I wanted to get one of those too -- have so far been disuaded because
they need a gas line that's bigger than most residential installations
have available, and and they need a GOOD exhaust system to remove the
heat (a little plastic-fan consumer range hood won't cut it).

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

I would not define this discussion as politics. No politicians names or
political parties have been bashed. It is an interesting discussion about
the current economic bailouts.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:20 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

Wait ... I thought this WAS Banned. I just thought a bunch of new folks
signed up.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Luther  wrote:

> What happened to no politics on this list?  Isn't that what Banned is for?
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

Mine doesn't stink either, only because I'm moving foreword fast enough to
not smell it...

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:18 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality stove and
oven. (I am to cooking as you are to brewing brew.)

2 -- I do, however, generate a LOT of gas. Comes with a vegetarian diet, I
think, plus lots of cabbage (fried cabbage, boiled cabbage, steamed cabbage
-- pot luck at lunch today). ... That is in jest, partly, because I eat so
many beans (including soy based products) that if I was inclined to gas, I'd
be completely miserable ... or my co-workers would be. Plus, I am an officer
so my  doesn't stink.   :-)



On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> There is a difference between the Government propping up a viable industry
> and one who's time has passed. Do you have gas lights in your house?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

Wait ... I thought this WAS Banned. I just thought a bunch of new folks
signed up.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Luther  wrote:

> What happened to no politics on this list?  Isn't that what Banned is for?
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

1 -- I don't have gas lights in my house, but I wish I had a gas stove
rather than an electric stove. A really big, restaurant quality stove and
oven. (I am to cooking as you are to brewing brew.)

2 -- I do, however, generate a LOT of gas. Comes with a vegetarian diet, I
think, plus lots of cabbage (fried cabbage, boiled cabbage, steamed cabbage
-- pot luck at lunch today). ... That is in jest, partly, because I eat so
many beans (including soy based products) that if I was inclined to gas, I'd
be completely miserable ... or my co-workers would be. Plus, I am an officer
so my  doesn't stink.   :-)



On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> There is a difference between the Government propping up a viable industry
> and one who's time has passed. Do you have gas lights in your house?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Luther]

What happened to no politics on this list?  Isn't that what Banned is for?

--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (183 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

There is a difference between the Government propping up a viable industry
and one who's time has passed. Do you have gas lights in your house?

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:09 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

I think you just made my point for me.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
>> Look -- I don't think anyone objects to the government stepping in and
>> pumping capital into big companies important to our economy.
>>
>
>
> Speak for yourself, Mister.
> Imagine that it's 1930, and the Acme Gas Light Company is too big to fail,
> but it HAS failed. Should the Hoover administration rack up debt for
unborn
> grandchildren (that would be us) to keep it afloat?
>
>
> Mitch.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

We have a stable currency now - more stable than any other major currency in
the world. If the financial markets had been allowed to fail this would not
be so.

The most recent example I remember was when the Mexican Peso went into free
fall in the early 90s. I worked with Mexican Engineers who were paid in US
dollars at the time. The Peso fell so fast that one of the Engineers I
worked with was able to pay off his recently purchased house in 2 years - a
house that should have taken him 15 years to pay for.

The same could have happened here.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:41 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

We shall never know (perhaps) but I don't think the sky would have fallen as
predicted. It would have been ugly, but we have ugly now.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and
the
> spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

I think you just made my point for me.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
>> Look -- I don't think anyone objects to the government stepping in and
>> pumping capital into big companies important to our economy.
>>
>
>
> Speak for yourself, Mister.
> Imagine that it's 1930, and the Acme Gas Light Company is too big to fail,
> but it HAS failed. Should the Hoover administration rack up debt for unborn
> grandchildren (that would be us) to keep it afloat?
>
>
> Mitch.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Wonko the Sane wrote:

Look -- I don't think anyone objects to the government stepping in and
pumping capital into big companies important to our economy.



Speak for yourself, Mister.
Imagine that it's 1930, and the Acme Gas Light Company is too big to fail, but 
it HAS failed. Should the Hoover administration rack up debt for unborn 
grandchildren (that would be us) to keep it afloat?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

Wonko the Sane  writes:

> More than outrage that these losers are walking away with millions is
> the outrage that these losers are walking away with millions from the
> public coffers, money intended to prop up the company (and not the
> individual bank accounts of its employees).

We're giving about 5 times the amount of those bonus payments as aid to
Hamas, though.  Just something to chew on for perspective.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Geithner told to stop AIG bonuses

Today's Daily Bell
Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Branding the situation an 'outrage' for American taxpayers, who control around 
80% of the company, the US President said that AIG had fallen into financial 
distress due to "recklessness and greed" and questioned the justification for 
paying out staff bonuses. Mr. Geithner was instructed to "pursue every legal 
avenue to block" some $165m of payments due immediately to members of AIG's 
London-headquartered Financial Products team, including what are thought to be 
several multi-million dollar pay-outs for a number of key British staff. In a 
hard-hitting series of comments President Obama took aim at the Financial 
Products team, responsible for a $40.5bn loss last year which in large part 
drove AIG to the brink of collapse, saying "it's hard to understand how 
derivative traders at AIG warranted any bonuses." AIG intends to pay out $450m 
within the next few weeks - part of an overall compensation pool of $1.2bn. - UK 
Telegraph


Dominant Social Theme: Greedy guys at AIG.

Free-Market Analysis: This is pretty incredible. AIG got into trouble playing 
the derivatives games. It "swapped" risk-based contracts and took fees, but 
never set aside funds as it would with ordinary insurance risk. Additionally, 
there is probably nothing wrong with derivatives under a gold standard. But it 
was "easy" fiat money that allowed AIG to create the derivatives and take the 
risk in the first place. Derivatives, all US$400 trillion, (most not unwound 
yet) are nothing but the biggest fiat money bubble of all. Bigger than "tech," 
bigger than the mortgage bubble - these derivatives are pure speculation, but 
because they are so contractually obscure, and overwhelming, until they are 
dealt with, the rest of the financial system will doubtless remain in some sort 
of paralysis.


Here is how AIG's derivatives business worked, according to an email response to 
an article on the AIG fiasco in the Dallas Morning News. We don't know the 
attribution, and we wouldn't ordinarily publish an unattributed email, but it is 
a good summary that rings true, confirming what we already understand about the 
way the AIG pursued its derivatives business and why it got into trouble.


The problem [is that] AIG didn't sell "insurance" because "insurance" is a 
regulated product that requires the insurer (AIG) to maintain a pool of cash to 
pay out for losses. What AIG sold were contracts that indemnified (mostly) 
investment banks from losses on certain investments they held (mostly mortgage 
backed securities, but AIG would sell you a swap on just about anything). These 
contracts (the credit default swaps) were unregulated and didn't force AIG to 
maintain any sort loss pool, so they didn't. Money went in to AIG when the banks 
bought the swaps and instantly fell to the bottom line as profit. Another side 
effect of the way AIG was selling the default swaps: Once they sold a swap on a 
set of securities, those securities would have their credit rating raised to 
match AIG's perfect AAA rating. Because they were indemnifying the underlying 
securities, it no longer mattered what they were, just the odds that AIG would 
pay off in the end.


The Dallas Morning News article, not excerpted above, has harsh words for 
another part of the AIG crisis - the places where the government bailout money 
went (apparently over US$100 billion by now though it is difficult to keep 
track.) "Billions and billions of taxpayer dollars went to pay off investment 
banks -- Goldman, JPMorgan, et al. -- who bought credit-default swap policies 
from AIG, which AIG could not pay out on. These are the same firms who spent 
gobs of cash successfully lobbying Democrats and Republicans for years to keep 
government oversight of derivatives and credit-default swaps at bay."


OK, so let's take a deep breath and summarize. AIG was a reinsurer of insurers 
but several years ago it slowed its normal course of business and revved up its 
swaps business. These swaps were trades in which AIG certified that it would 
make good on any losses, but didn't put money aside to cover potential losses. 
When the bill came due, AIG went to the US federal government which basically 
made good on the promises that AIG had made. Thus the counterparties were made 
whole - and these counterparties were among the biggest American and European 
financial entities. As we have already indicated, the AIG bailout was actually a 
bailout of the larger financial industry. That was the reason for the bailout. 
Without it, Wall Street, and who knows, maybe London's City big banks would have 
gone down sooner and harder.


Conclusion: To fulminate about AIG bonuses is to miss the point. There is no way 
that America's largest insurer could have or would have taken such risks were 
not the entire system corrupt from bottom to top. AIG's top people were not 
foolish, anymore than the rest of Wall Street. At this poin

Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

I have my insurance through USAA. What would happen to me if USAA went
under? I'd have to look for another company to ensure my mini-fleet.

Look -- I don't think anyone objects to the government stepping in and
pumping capital into big companies important to our economy. The
disagreement is with these companies taking public funds and channeling them
into endeavors that do little to save the company, such as giving the money
in huge checks to employees.

If you are near a tv, turn on CNN. Donald Trump is laying it out much better
than I could.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

>
> Less damage than was done by 'saving' them, that's the only thing that's
> truly certain here. The simple way to save them from their own stupidity
> would have been to declare the insurance invalid if bought by a company that
> had no insurable interest.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[dave walton]

The real crime would be to allow private insurance companies to continue to
refuse covering medical procedures for veterans that were fully insured by
them before, during, and after their service to this country.

-Dave Walton

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Forcing a private company (private insurance) to cover the treatment of
> military veterans?
>
> When will Obama decide that the energy crises is so bad that we will not be
> allowed to drive cross country without a 'special permit"? Think I'm
> kidding? There is no fundamental difference between the Government telling
> private industry what they will do and telling you what you will do!
>
> I'm afraid you are correct - Socialism is no longer around the corner, it's
> here!
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of harry watkins
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 10:24 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> WASHINGTON, March 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The leader of the nation's
> largest veterans organization says he is "deeply disappointed and
> concerned"
> after a meeting with President Obama today to discuss a proposal to force
> private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans
> who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries. The Obama
> administration recently revealed a plan to require private insurance
> carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in such
> cases.
>
>
>
> "It became apparent during our discussion today that the President intends
> to move forward with this unreasonable plan," said Commander David K.
> Rehbein of The American Legion. "He says he is looking to generate
> $540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral
> and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it."
>
> The whole story:
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090316/pl_usnw/the_american_legion_strongly_o
> pposed_to_president_s_plan_to_charge_wounded_heroes_for_treatment
>
>
>
> Every day there is another step towards socialism.
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Tom Hargrave wrote:

Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and the
spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?


Less damage than was done by 'saving' them, that's the only thing that's truly 
certain here. The simple way to save them from their own stupidity would have 
been to declare the insurance invalid if bought by a company that had no 
insurable interest. Much like it would already be invalid for me to buy life 
insurance on Tom with myself as beneficiary. We're feeding hundreds of billions 
to AIG to pay off claims on insurance that was passed off as 'not insurance', 
and much of it was sold to companies which had no insurable interest, who then 
orchestrated the failure so the insurance would pay off.


Let's say I bought a thousand insurance policies on Tom's home, each for 1/2 
million dollars. Then let's say I found a legal way to make Tom's home burn down 
so I could make 1/2 Billion. If the insurance company could not pay off, do we 
need the taxpayers to pay me?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wilton Strickland]

Governments don't have memories; governments NEVER learn.  For examole, we
individuals remember Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, etc.; now Iraq,
Afghanistan, but governments can't seem to remember them when they need to.

Wilton

- Original Message -
From: "Wonko the Sane" 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war


> And you'd say that getting into these derivatives was not bad management?
My
> understanding is that a bonus is paid on performance -- how much money you
> end up making the company, not how much you sell. If the end result of
your
> actions is that you bring down the company and perhaps the world economy
to
> boot, should that be rewarded?
>
> For better or for worse, some folks are walking away with millions in
> "retention pay" (and more than a few took the "retention pay" and then
> left). The end result will be that -- hopefully -- IF there is more of my
> tax money (and yours) pumped into these too-big-to-fail companies, then
> there are strings attached. Personally, I hope we tax the hell out of
those
> bonuses. If you get a bonus with corporate money, then that is fine. If
you
> are getting a bonus with MY money, then I, as a taxpayer and by extension
> one of the largest owners of the company, then I want it back.
>
> More than outrage that these losers are walking away with millions is the
> outrage that these losers are walking away with millions from the public
> coffers, money intended to prop up the company (and not the individual
bank
> accounts of its employees).
>
> Next time, any government money comes with a whole lot of strings and up
> front agreements.
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
>
> > I can see one business going under & being accused of bad management -
take
> > Enron for example. But they were one company in their industry and it
was
> > very clear that they "cooked the books". Everyone else in the same
industry
> > waded through the Enron crises without a problem.
> >
> > AIG and the others are an entirely different situation.
> >
> -- next part --
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

We shall never know (perhaps) but I don't think the sky would have fallen as
predicted. It would have been ugly, but we have ugly now.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and the
> spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

Possibly, possibly not, but what would have happened to our economy and the
spending value of YOUR DOLLAR if they had been allowed to fail?

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:31 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut down. I
think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens under
what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government buying
and administering the assets.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick
wrote:

> I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" -- what
> about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US government?
I,
> personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking the
> money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
>
> Peter
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

I keep asking myself if the bonuses would have been paid -- or been
obligated -- had AIG been allowed to go into bankruptcy or even shut down. I
think I know the answer, and that answer should determine what happens under
what was essentially bankruptcy reorganization, with the government buying
and administering the assets.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:

> I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" -- what
> about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US government?  I,
> personally, would have reduced all salaries at all institutions taking the
> money, either directly or as payment of contracts, to US GS rates as a
> condition of bailing them out.  No profits to anyone, no bonuses, not
> dividends, nothing until all moneys repaid at interest, either.
>
> Peter
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Peter Frederick]

I love the argument that these bonuses were promised "by contract" --  
what about the fact that the company had to be rescued by the US  
government?  I, personally, would have reduced all salaries at all  
institutions taking the money, either directly or as payment of  
contracts, to US GS rates as a condition of bailing them out.  No  
profits to anyone, no bonuses, not dividends, nothing until all  
moneys repaid at interest, either.


Peter

On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote:

And you'd say that getting into these derivatives was not bad  
management? My
understanding is that a bonus is paid on performance -- how much  
money you
end up making the company, not how much you sell. If the end result  
of your
actions is that you bring down the company and perhaps the world  
economy to

boot, should that be rewarded?

For better or for worse, some folks are walking away with millions in
"retention pay" (and more than a few took the "retention pay" and then
left). The end result will be that -- hopefully -- IF there is more  
of my
tax money (and yours) pumped into these too-big-to-fail companies,  
then
there are strings attached. Personally, I hope we tax the hell out  
of those
bonuses. If you get a bonus with corporate money, then that is  
fine. If you
are getting a bonus with MY money, then I, as a taxpayer and by  
extension

one of the largest owners of the company, then I want it back.

More than outrage that these losers are walking away with millions  
is the
outrage that these losers are walking away with millions from the  
public
coffers, money intended to prop up the company (and not the  
individual bank

accounts of its employees).

Next time, any government money comes with a whole lot of strings  
and up

front agreements.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Tom Hargrave   
wrote:


I can see one business going under & being accused of bad  
management - take
Enron for example. But they were one company in their industry and  
it was
very clear that they "cooked the books". Everyone else in the same  
industry

waded through the Enron crises without a problem.

AIG and the others are an entirely different situation.


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Wonko the Sane]

And you'd say that getting into these derivatives was not bad management? My
understanding is that a bonus is paid on performance -- how much money you
end up making the company, not how much you sell. If the end result of your
actions is that you bring down the company and perhaps the world economy to
boot, should that be rewarded?

For better or for worse, some folks are walking away with millions in
"retention pay" (and more than a few took the "retention pay" and then
left). The end result will be that -- hopefully -- IF there is more of my
tax money (and yours) pumped into these too-big-to-fail companies, then
there are strings attached. Personally, I hope we tax the hell out of those
bonuses. If you get a bonus with corporate money, then that is fine. If you
are getting a bonus with MY money, then I, as a taxpayer and by extension
one of the largest owners of the company, then I want it back.

More than outrage that these losers are walking away with millions is the
outrage that these losers are walking away with millions from the public
coffers, money intended to prop up the company (and not the individual bank
accounts of its employees).

Next time, any government money comes with a whole lot of strings and up
front agreements.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> I can see one business going under & being accused of bad management - take
> Enron for example. But they were one company in their industry and it was
> very clear that they "cooked the books". Everyone else in the same industry
> waded through the Enron crises without a problem.
>
> AIG and the others are an entirely different situation.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

"Tom Hargrave"  writes:

> AIG and the others are an entirely different situation. This is
> institution wide - affecting all large banks & most medium size
> banks. And because of this, you can hardly blame "bad management" of
> one institution for the problem. The experts already agree that the
> issue was caused by a fundamental change in the way the entire
> industry was run and managed and they probably won't be finished
> sorting out the details for years.

Maybe so, but demonizing and alienating and confiscating the income of
the very people who might have some understanding of how to unwind the
AIG situation in a sane manner does not seem to be a very good idea.

Certainly the likes of Pelosi, Frank, and Dodd don't have the first
clue.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

I can see one business going under & being accused of bad management - take
Enron for example. But they were one company in their industry and it was
very clear that they "cooked the books". Everyone else in the same industry
waded through the Enron crises without a problem.

AIG and the others are an entirely different situation. This is institution
wide - affecting all large banks & most medium size banks. And because of
this, you can hardly blame "bad management" of one institution for the
problem. The experts already agree that the issue was caused by a
fundamental change in the way the entire industry was run and managed and
they probably won't be finished sorting out the details for years.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of John Freer
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:05 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

So, those who had Objectives and Goals to put AIG into a financial
catastrophe felt around the world will be rewardedthose with
Objectives and Goals to provide legal and moral income have failed and
will go without. I get it now.

Contracts mean nothing ...all around this great country there are
employee layoffs and cutbacks even with contracts, going on right now.
This AIG thing does not make any sense and we, as a stockholder in
this corrupt company ought to be doing something about it.

Hope the CEO of AIG follows in the path of Kenneth Lay.

John
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
> This does not change my argument or the point I was trying to make. I can
> almost guarantee that the bonus plan was a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT between
the
> Company and those receiving bonuses. And legally, they may have had no
> choice but to pay the bonuses providing the ones receiving the bonuses
lived
> up to their end of the deal - they met their goals.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of tyler
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:33 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> If AIG chooses to accept bailouts from the federal government, doesn't
> that give the government the right to set any conditions they want? The
> bonuses may be fair and earned, but an organization that is at risk of
> failing due to lack of funds can no longer afford non-essential costs
> like bonuses if it wants to keep providing paychecks or employment at all.
>
> Tyler
>
> Tom Hargrave wrote:
>> This issue 'came to head' with the AIG bonus payouts. I've worked for
> salary
>> as an upper level Manager and can tell you that bonuses are setup by
>> contractually binding goals and paid based on performance to those goals.
> In
>> other words, the bonuses were due the recipient just like your weekly
>> paycheck is due to you.
>>
>> 1. Do I like the fact that they received bonuses? No!
>>
>> 2. Are the bonuses fair? Yes - the bonuses were instituted (as they
always
>> are) to increase performance & make sure goals are met. I'm sure that
some
>> bonuses were even tied to cost cutting measures.
>>
>> 3. Did they earn their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>>
>> 4. Should they keep their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>>
>>
>> So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit,
bonuses
>> or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
>> government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
>> PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?
>>
>> That's what they are trying to do to AIG!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom Hargrave
>> www.kegkits.com
>> 256-656-1924
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[John Freer]

So, those who had Objectives and Goals to put AIG into a financial
catastrophe felt around the world will be rewardedthose with
Objectives and Goals to provide legal and moral income have failed and
will go without. I get it now.

Contracts mean nothing ...all around this great country there are
employee layoffs and cutbacks even with contracts, going on right now.
This AIG thing does not make any sense and we, as a stockholder in
this corrupt company ought to be doing something about it.

Hope the CEO of AIG follows in the path of Kenneth Lay.

John
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:
> This does not change my argument or the point I was trying to make. I can
> almost guarantee that the bonus plan was a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT between the
> Company and those receiving bonuses. And legally, they may have had no
> choice but to pay the bonuses providing the ones receiving the bonuses lived
> up to their end of the deal - they met their goals.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of tyler
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:33 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> If AIG chooses to accept bailouts from the federal government, doesn't
> that give the government the right to set any conditions they want? The
> bonuses may be fair and earned, but an organization that is at risk of
> failing due to lack of funds can no longer afford non-essential costs
> like bonuses if it wants to keep providing paychecks or employment at all.
>
> Tyler
>
> Tom Hargrave wrote:
>> This issue 'came to head' with the AIG bonus payouts. I've worked for
> salary
>> as an upper level Manager and can tell you that bonuses are setup by
>> contractually binding goals and paid based on performance to those goals.
> In
>> other words, the bonuses were due the recipient just like your weekly
>> paycheck is due to you.
>>
>> 1. Do I like the fact that they received bonuses? No!
>>
>> 2. Are the bonuses fair? Yes - the bonuses were instituted (as they always
>> are) to increase performance & make sure goals are met. I'm sure that some
>> bonuses were even tied to cost cutting measures.
>>
>> 3. Did they earn their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>>
>> 4. Should they keep their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>>
>>
>> So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
>> or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
>> government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
>> PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?
>>
>> That's what they are trying to do to AIG!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom Hargrave
>> www.kegkits.com
>> 256-656-1924
>
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> 7:01 PM
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

tyler  writes:

> If AIG chooses to accept bailouts from the federal government, doesn't
> that give the government the right to set any conditions they want?

At any time, as public opinion dicatates?  That seems a pretty broad
right.

OTOH AIG should have seen this coming.  With government money comes
government strings.  There's no shortage of fools in this drama.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

This does not change my argument or the point I was trying to make. I can
almost guarantee that the bonus plan was a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT between the
Company and those receiving bonuses. And legally, they may have had no
choice but to pay the bonuses providing the ones receiving the bonuses lived
up to their end of the deal - they met their goals.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of tyler
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:33 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

If AIG chooses to accept bailouts from the federal government, doesn't 
that give the government the right to set any conditions they want? The 
bonuses may be fair and earned, but an organization that is at risk of 
failing due to lack of funds can no longer afford non-essential costs 
like bonuses if it wants to keep providing paychecks or employment at all.

Tyler

Tom Hargrave wrote:
> This issue 'came to head' with the AIG bonus payouts. I've worked for
salary
> as an upper level Manager and can tell you that bonuses are setup by
> contractually binding goals and paid based on performance to those goals.
In
> other words, the bonuses were due the recipient just like your weekly
> paycheck is due to you.
>
> 1. Do I like the fact that they received bonuses? No!
>
> 2. Are the bonuses fair? Yes - the bonuses were instituted (as they always
> are) to increase performance & make sure goals are met. I'm sure that some
> bonuses were even tied to cost cutting measures.
>
> 3. Did they earn their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>
> 4. Should they keep their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.
>
>
> So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
> or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
> government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
> PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?
>
> That's what they are trying to do to AIG!
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[tyler]

If AIG chooses to accept bailouts from the federal government, doesn't 
that give the government the right to set any conditions they want? The 
bonuses may be fair and earned, but an organization that is at risk of 
failing due to lack of funds can no longer afford non-essential costs 
like bonuses if it wants to keep providing paychecks or employment at all.


Tyler

Tom Hargrave wrote:

This issue 'came to head' with the AIG bonus payouts. I've worked for salary
as an upper level Manager and can tell you that bonuses are setup by
contractually binding goals and paid based on performance to those goals. In
other words, the bonuses were due the recipient just like your weekly
paycheck is due to you.

1. Do I like the fact that they received bonuses? No!

2. Are the bonuses fair? Yes - the bonuses were instituted (as they always
are) to increase performance & make sure goals are met. I'm sure that some
bonuses were even tied to cost cutting measures.

3. Did they earn their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.

4. Should they keep their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.


So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?

That's what they are trying to do to AIG!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924


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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[harry watkins]

Allen wrote: "Some idiot congressman is on TV now proposing a 60% tax 
surcharge on "excess" executive pay in companies that have taken bail-out 
money.


That's right a 95% tax rate."

Senator Chris Dodd proposed a 90% tax on those bonuses last night.  The same 
Senator Dodd that got a sweetheart VIP house buying deal from AIG.  The same 
Senator Dodd that added a clause in the stimulus package to exclude any 
contract bonus deals that had occurred before 2/11/09.


He must have forgot.  Just like he did not realize his house deal was 
special.  Good thing he's not in a position of power.


Harry 



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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

The government did not give your employer $200 Billion so that your paycheck
won't bounce. They used the money to prop up the banking system so that the
banks would not collapse and you only benefited from the transaction.

Think of what would have happened if they had not propped up the banks let
large financial institutions fail? I wonder what the $20.00 in your wallet
would have bought the day after? Maybe a candy bar or soda? They averted a
disaster. The irony is that politicians never get credit for averting
disaster!

Seriously, history is full of examples of collapsed financial systems and
it's never pretty. The result is always rampant inflation & cost increases
to the point where you could wake up the next day to discover the money in
your pocket will only buy 1/2 what it bought the day before. Then you would
wake up the day after to see the same decline again!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:15 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

Tom Hargrave wrote:

> So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
> or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
> government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
> PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?

Depends, is it the same government that gave my employer $200 Billion so
that my 
paychecks didn't bounce?


Mitch.



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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Mitch Haley]

Tom Hargrave wrote:


So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?


Depends, is it the same government that gave my employer $200 Billion so that my 
paychecks didn't bounce?



Mitch.



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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

This issue 'came to head' with the AIG bonus payouts. I've worked for salary
as an upper level Manager and can tell you that bonuses are setup by
contractually binding goals and paid based on performance to those goals. In
other words, the bonuses were due the recipient just like your weekly
paycheck is due to you.

1. Do I like the fact that they received bonuses? No!

2. Are the bonuses fair? Yes - the bonuses were instituted (as they always
are) to increase performance & make sure goals are met. I'm sure that some
bonuses were even tied to cost cutting measures.

3. Did they earn their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.

4. Should they keep their bonuses? Yes - see answer 2 above.


So, when does the Government have the right to decide that profit, bonuses
or pay in the private sector is excessive? How would you feel of the
government decided that YOU were making too much money and gave YOU a 20%
PAY CUT or TAX INCREASE?

That's what they are trying to do to AIG!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Allan Streib
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:56 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

"Tom Hargrave"  writes:

> When will Obama decide that the energy crises is so bad that we will
> not be allowed to drive cross country without a 'special permit"?
> Think I'm kidding? There is no fundamental difference between the
> Government telling private industry what they will do and telling you
> what you will do!

Some idiot congressman is on TV now proposing a 60% tax surcharge on
"excess" executive pay in companies that have taken bail-out money.

That's right a 95% tax rate.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Allan Streib]

"Tom Hargrave"  writes:

> When will Obama decide that the energy crises is so bad that we will
> not be allowed to drive cross country without a 'special permit"?
> Think I'm kidding? There is no fundamental difference between the
> Government telling private industry what they will do and telling you
> what you will do!

Some idiot congressman is on TV now proposing a 60% tax surcharge on
"excess" executive pay in companies that have taken bail-out money.

That's right a 95% tax rate.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Gary Hurst]

it's been here for a very long time

the entirety of the civil rights movement is government telling private
industry and individuals what to do.  it was ok then, but no good now?

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Tom Hargrave  wrote:

> Forcing a private company (private insurance) to cover the treatment of
> military veterans?
>
> When will Obama decide that the energy crises is so bad that we will not be
> allowed to drive cross country without a 'special permit"? Think I'm
> kidding? There is no fundamental difference between the Government telling
> private industry what they will do and telling you what you will do!
>
> I'm afraid you are correct - Socialism is no longer around the corner, it's
> here!
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of harry watkins
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 10:24 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war
>
> WASHINGTON, March 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The leader of the nation's
> largest veterans organization says he is "deeply disappointed and
> concerned"
> after a meeting with President Obama today to discuss a proposal to force
> private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans
> who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries. The Obama
> administration recently revealed a plan to require private insurance
> carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in such
> cases.
>
>
>
> "It became apparent during our discussion today that the President intends
> to move forward with this unreasonable plan," said Commander David K.
> Rehbein of The American Legion. "He says he is looking to generate
> $540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral
> and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it."
>
> The whole story:
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090316/pl_usnw/the_american_legion_strongly_o
> pposed_to_president_s_plan_to_charge_wounded_heroes_for_treatment
>
>
>
> Every day there is another step towards socialism.
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

[Tom Hargrave]

Forcing a private company (private insurance) to cover the treatment of
military veterans?

When will Obama decide that the energy crises is so bad that we will not be
allowed to drive cross country without a 'special permit"? Think I'm
kidding? There is no fundamental difference between the Government telling
private industry what they will do and telling you what you will do!

I'm afraid you are correct - Socialism is no longer around the corner, it's
here!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of harry watkins
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 10:24 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] OT banned lite, Better not get hurt in war

WASHINGTON, March 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The leader of the nation's
largest veterans organization says he is "deeply disappointed and concerned"
after a meeting with President Obama today to discuss a proposal to force
private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans
who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries. The Obama
administration recently revealed a plan to require private insurance
carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in such cases.



"It became apparent during our discussion today that the President intends
to move forward with this unreasonable plan," said Commander David K.
Rehbein of The American Legion. "He says he is looking to generate
$540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral
and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it." 

The whole story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090316/pl_usnw/the_american_legion_strongly_o
pposed_to_president_s_plan_to_charge_wounded_heroes_for_treatment



Every day there is another step towards socialism.  



Harry


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