Re: Worth it?

[Thomas]

I would never ever go back to 4.78. Some pages freeze 4.78 while 
loading, doesn't happen with netscape 6 and its much faster in 
displaying pages. NS6.2 has much better interface. Crashes less. To be 
honest 6.2 never crashed. And I surf alot. 4.7 crashed a least once a 
day. 6.2 has the best CSS support.
Only negative thing (for some people) is that it needs alot of 
recources, don't download unless you have a 400MhZ Processor and 64 MB 
Ram (better 128)


Joe Camel wrote:

> X-No-archive:yes
> 
> I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills. 
> TIA!
> 

Re: Worth it?

[Richter]

Joe Camel wrote:

> X-No-archive:yes
>
> I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> TIA!
> --
> Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good
> with ketchup.

When you install NS 6.2 it does not interfere with your NS 4.7x at all.
It basically is another application/program/browser which runs side by
side. You can run either or both at the same time, I do. I am starting
to use NS 6.2 more and more. More so with each release.
BTW -- I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2 and Mozilla both at the same time with
no problems. Don't delete your NS 4.78 until you are very familiar and
confident with NS 6.2 -- I haven't and won't for quite a while yet -- and
then there are those old web sites with NS 4.7x proprietory codes to
consider.
Get NS 6.2 and take it out for a test drive.

Gus

Re: Worth it?

[Jay Garcia]

Joe Camel wrote:

> X-No-archive:yes
> 
> I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills. 
> TIA!
> 

4.78 does in fact support CSS and quite well unless it runs into
proprietary non-standard CSS.

For 4.x issues please visit:

  snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.communicator

For 6.x issues please visit:

  snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.netscape6.windows


-- 
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Novell MCNE-5/CNI-Networking Technologies-OSI
UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org

Re: Worth it?

[Chris Hoess]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jay Garcia wrote:
> 
> 4.78 does in fact support CSS and quite well unless it runs into
> proprietary non-standard CSS.
> 

Huh?  I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a web developer who agrees 
with that. IIRC, 4.x's CSS support is a hack that turns CSS into JSSS, 
which tends to mangle a lot of things.  "Quite well" is not the phrase I'd 
use.

-- 
Chris Hoess

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Richter wrote:
> 
> Joe Camel wrote:
> 
> > X-No-archive:yes
> >
> > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > TIA!
> > --
> > Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good
> > with ketchup.
> 
> When you install NS 6.2 it does not interfere with your NS 4.7x at all.
> It basically is another application/program/browser which runs side by
> side. You can run either or both at the same time, I do. I am starting
> to use NS 6.2 more and more. More so with each release.
> BTW -- I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2 and Mozilla both at the same time with
> no problems. Don't delete your NS 4.78 until you are very familiar and
> confident with NS 6.2 -- I haven't and won't for quite a while yet -- and
> then there are those old web sites with NS 4.7x proprietory codes to
> consider.
> Get NS 6.2 and take it out for a test drive.
> 
> Gus

I assume you are using either a Windows or 'NIX machine? 

As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other. 
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

I've never run into CSS problems with Communicator using any version 4.5
or later.

Jay Garcia wrote:
> 
> Joe Camel wrote:
> 
> > X-No-archive:yes
> >
> > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > TIA!
> >
> 
> 4.78 does in fact support CSS and quite well unless it runs into
> proprietary non-standard CSS.
> 
> For 4.x issues please visit:
> 
>   snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.communicator
> 
> For 6.x issues please visit:
> 
>   snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.netscape6.windows
> 
> --
> Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
> Novell MCNE-5/CNI-Networking Technologies-OSI
> UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> X-No-archive:yes
> 
> > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > TIA!
> 
> The question I'd have to ask is, do you use Mail and News or just the
> browser?  The browser portion is fine, but mail and news still has a few
> annoying problems (I don't think Netscape fixed them in their private
> branch, because they are still happening in mozilla).
> 
> It mainly has problems with the number of unread messages not being
> correct all the time.  And the compose dialog doesn't always move the
> cursor as you'd expect.

In using N6.2 both in Mail or News I run into among other items after
mail or news item is downloaded the throber and progress bar continue to
work sometime it will only stop when going to a new  folder (or news
groups). The same happens on Mozilla as well. Mozilla in use is one of
the .9.5. nightlies.

The reason why the the browser works but not necessarily mail and news.
Is because all emphasis is being placed in the Browser. The Mail and
news is considered an after thought.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Pratik]

On 11/02/01 03:49 PM, Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

> I've never run into CSS problems with Communicator using any version 4.5
> or later.



Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/pratiksolanki

The site uses CSS and doesn't render correctly on NS 4.72 on Linux. I
got the css and html validated on www.w3.org (modulo the extra crap that
geocities will add to the html page)

Pratik.

Re: Worth it?

[Duane Clark]

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

> 
> 
> The reason why the the browser works but not necessarily mail and news.
> Is because all emphasis is being placed in the Browser. The Mail and
> news is considered an after thought.

Though to be fair, the recent couple of versions (Moz 0.93 and later) 
have shown that much more attention is being paid to the Mail/news 
components. As of Moz 0.95, it has improved dramatically. A few minor 
bugs remain, but they are definitely minor and I am now happily using 
Moz full time for both mail and news.

As for the original question from "Joe Camel", the number one reason for 
upgrading to NS 6.2 or Moz 0.95, is the ability to block popup ads. That 
alone gaurantees that I will only use NS 4.76 (I do still keep it 
around) for the occasional site or feature that still do not work 
correctly in Moz.

Also along this line, I also like Mozilla's ability to stop web sites 
from moving or resizing my browser window, something I find very annoying.

Other reasons for upgrading:
Another preference allows me to set a minimum font size. Very handy for 
us old guys with weak eyes.
Browser Tabs!!! You will quickly wonder how you lived without them. 
(only in Mozilla for now).
Multiple mail accounts/identities.

So I guess what I am saying is that you get lots of new features by 
upgrading. While there remain some minor bugs, none of them are 
bothersome to me.

-- 
My real email is akamail.com@dclark (or something like that).

Re: Worth it?

[Richter]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:

> Richter wrote:
> >
> > Joe Camel wrote:
> >
> > > X-No-archive:yes
> > >
> > > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > > TIA!
> > > --
> > > Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good
> > > with ketchup.
> >
> > When you install NS 6.2 it does not interfere with your NS 4.7x at all.
> > It basically is another application/program/browser which runs side by
> > side. You can run either or both at the same time, I do. I am starting
> > to use NS 6.2 more and more. More so with each release.
> > BTW -- I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2 and Mozilla both at the same time with
> > no problems. Don't delete your NS 4.78 until you are very familiar and
> > confident with NS 6.2 -- I haven't and won't for quite a while yet -- and
> > then there are those old web sites with NS 4.7x proprietory codes to
> > consider.
> > Get NS 6.2 and take it out for a test drive.
> >
> > Gus
>
> I assume you are using either a Windows or 'NIX machine?
>
> As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> --
> Phillip M. Jones

What broad assumptions are you talking about?
Joe uses Windows 98 and I use Windows 95 on my machine.
I informed him of my experience - no assumptions, just fact.
I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2, Moz 0.95, IE 5.5 and Opera 5.12 all at the
same time, all on my lowly Pentium 166 MMX with 64 MB of RAM and
I have no problems with any conflicts - full default installs.
If you're interested in speed, it's not too bad at all for me.

Gus

Re: Worth it?

[Lucas MacBride]

Chris Hoess wrote:

> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jay Garcia wrote:
> 
>>4.78 does in fact support CSS and quite well unless it runs into
>>proprietary non-standard CSS.
>>
>>
> 
> Huh?  I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a web developer who agrees 
> with that. IIRC, 4.x's CSS support is a hack that turns CSS into JSSS, 
> which tends to mangle a lot of things.  "Quite well" is not the phrase I'd 
> use.
> 
> 

Nav4 has very deficient CSS support...here's the full scoop:

http://webreview.com/style/css1/charts/mastergrid.shtml

Re: Worth it?

[lal_truckee]

Duane Clark wrote:

> Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote NS6.2/Moz9.5
> 
> Other reasons for upgrading:
> Another preference allows me to set a minimum font size. Very handy for 
> us old guys with weak eyes.


How? I don't see that in Preferences/Appearances/Fonts, and as you 
mention, it sure would be handy as various bodily parts deteriorate ...

Re: Worth it?

[Duane Clark]

lal_truckee wrote:

> Duane Clark wrote:
> 
> 
>>Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote NS6.2/Moz9.5
>>
>>Other reasons for upgrading:
>>Another preference allows me to set a minimum font size. Very handy for 
>>us old guys with weak eyes.
>>
> 
> 
> How? I don't see that in Preferences/Appearances/Fonts, and as you 
> mention, it sure would be handy as various bodily parts deteriorate ...
> 
> 

I don't remember where I got the info, but I have these entries in my 
users.js file, which works for me:

// Don't ever show me a font smaller than this: some samples.
user_pref("font.min-size.variable.", 14);
user_pref("font.min-size.variable.x-western", 14);
user_pref("font.min-size.fixed.x-western", 13);


-- 
My real email is akamail.com@dclark (or something like that).

Re: Worth it?

[R.K.Aa.]

Duane Clark wrote:

> lal_truckee wrote:
> 
>> Duane Clark wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote NS6.2/Moz9.5
>>>
>>> Other reasons for upgrading:
>>> Another preference allows me to set a minimum font size. Very handy 
>>> for us old guys with weak eyes.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How? I don't see that in Preferences/Appearances/Fonts, and as you 
>> mention, it sure would be handy as various bodily parts deteriorate ...
>>
>>
> 
> I don't remember where I got the info, but I have these entries in my 
> users.js file, which works for me:
> 
> // Don't ever show me a font smaller than this: some samples.
> user_pref("font.min-size.variable.", 14);
> user_pref("font.min-size.variable.x-western", 14);
> user_pref("font.min-size.fixed.x-western", 13);
> 
> 

it may have been (or will be) replaced by

user_pref("font.minimum-size.x-western", 10);

(or whatever size)

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

 
Pratik wrote:
 
On 11/02/01 03:49 PM, Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> I've never run into CSS problems with Communicator using any version
4.5
> or later.
Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/pratiksolanki
The site uses CSS and doesn't render correctly on NS 4.72 on Linux.
I
got the css and html validated on www.w3.org (modulo the extra crap
that
geocities will add to the html page)
Pratik.

Appears to look right for me on Communicator 4.7.8. The opening
page appears to show description of various html code marked in green in
places.
clicking on button at bottom sends me to a new page with a bluish background
and a text list with some of the text in bold and some in blue indicating
hot links.
see items below:

 

 
these are Gif snapshots of a portion of the pages.
In the Past using CSS would cause Communicator to quit. Hasn't done
that in ages and ages.
Is this what its supposed to look like?
--
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE)
ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street
|Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm
 

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Richter wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:
> 
> > Richter wrote:
> > >
> > > Joe Camel wrote:
> > >
> > > > X-No-archive:yes
> > > >
> > > > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > > > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > > > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > > > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > > > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > > > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > > > TIA!
> > > > --
> > > > Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good
> > > > with ketchup.
> > >
> > > When you install NS 6.2 it does not interfere with your NS 4.7x at all.
> > > It basically is another application/program/browser which runs side by
> > > side. You can run either or both at the same time, I do. I am starting
> > > to use NS 6.2 more and more. More so with each release.
> > > BTW -- I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2 and Mozilla both at the same time with
> > > no problems. Don't delete your NS 4.78 until you are very familiar and
> > > confident with NS 6.2 -- I haven't and won't for quite a while yet -- and
> > > then there are those old web sites with NS 4.7x proprietory codes to
> > > consider.
> > > Get NS 6.2 and take it out for a test drive.
> > >
> > > Gus
> >
> > I assume you are using either a Windows or 'NIX machine?
> >
> > As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> > while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> > to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> > --
> > Phillip M. Jones
> 
> What broad assumptions are you talking about?
> Joe uses Windows 98 and I use Windows 95 on my machine.
> I informed him of my experience - no assumptions, just fact.
> I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2, Moz 0.95, IE 5.5 and Opera 5.12 all at the
> same time, all on my lowly Pentium 166 MMX with 64 MB of RAM and
> I have no problems with any conflicts - full default installs.
> If you're interested in speed, it's not too bad at all for me.
> 
> Gus

The assumption was in that you were assuming that everyone either uses
windox or 'nix machines.
The Conflict does appear with Communicator 4.X and Netscape 6.X using
OS's up to 9.2.1 because Mac depends on Type and Creator Codes to
differentiate between applications.
information taken from either interenet Control panel or ResEdit is:

Type = BINA
Creator = MOSS, For  Communicator 4.X

Type = BINA
Creator = MOSS, For Netscape 6.X

Type = BINA
Creator = MOZZ, For Mozilla

so any item maped to open with the use of Communicator 4.X in Internet
Control Panel  (Internet Config).will open instead netscape 6 and in
some cases try to open Communicator at same time.

They could cure the problem by the following change:

Type = BINA
Creator = MOZS, For Netscape 6

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Lucas MacBride wrote:
> 
> Chris Hoess wrote:
> 
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jay Garcia wrote:
> >
> >>4.78 does in fact support CSS and quite well unless it runs into
> >>proprietary non-standard CSS.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Huh?  I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a web developer who agrees
> > with that. IIRC, 4.x's CSS support is a hack that turns CSS into JSSS,
> > which tends to mangle a lot of things.  "Quite well" is not the phrase I'd
> > use.
> >
> >
> 
> Nav4 has very deficient CSS support...here's the full scoop:
> 
> http://webreview.com/style/css1/charts/mastergrid.shtml

Never said CSS in Communicator was perfect, just said I never ran into a
problem with it.

You have to remember that when CSS was added to Communicator that it
followed the specs in use at the time.

And since Netscape has decided for a long time they were considering a
total rewrite aka Netscape Communicator 5 or Netscape 5 they just
elected to not add or improve any CSS features and just remove any bugs.

Something that will happen to Netscape 6 when they get all major bugs
out according to current standards. Then Moz may crank up again for a
Total write for Netscape X or XX.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Pratik]

> Appears to look right for me on Communicator 4.7.8. The opening page 
> appears to show description of various html code marked in green in places.


But see, that is not what its supposed to look like. Take a look at it 
in Mozilla or IE. Thats how its suppossed to look like (unless both 
Mozill and IE display it wrong and NS4 displays it right and I totally 
misunderstood how to write css code).


> clicking on button at bottom sends me to a new page with a bluish 
> background and a text list with some of the text in bold and some in 
> blue indicating hot links.


That just links to the web page stats stats on some free counter website..

 
Pratik.

Re: Worth it?

[Richter]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:

> Richter wrote:
> >
> > "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:
> >
> > > Richter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Joe Camel wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > X-No-archive:yes
> > > > >
> > > > > I was just over in the Netscape 6 group and frankly, 6.2 still looks a
> > > > > little buggy for my tastes.  I am now on 4.78, which other than no
> > > > > support of CSS, etc. and some instability basically works pretty
> > > > > nicely.  Is it worth it to check out Netscape 6.2, or is it still
> > > > > betaware/bugware?  Be honest, too, please.  I am not an MS troll; I am
> > > > > just looking for some honest answers and do not want to hear shills.
> > > > > TIA!
> > > > > --
> > > > > Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good
> > > > > with ketchup.
> > > >
> > > > When you install NS 6.2 it does not interfere with your NS 4.7x at all.
> > > > It basically is another application/program/browser which runs side by
> > > > side. You can run either or both at the same time, I do. I am starting
> > > > to use NS 6.2 more and more. More so with each release.
> > > > BTW -- I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2 and Mozilla both at the same time with
> > > > no problems. Don't delete your NS 4.78 until you are very familiar and
> > > > confident with NS 6.2 -- I haven't and won't for quite a while yet -- and
> > > > then there are those old web sites with NS 4.7x proprietory codes to
> > > > consider.
> > > > Get NS 6.2 and take it out for a test drive.
> > > >
> > > > Gus
> > >
> > > I assume you are using either a Windows or 'NIX machine?
> > >
> > > As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> > > while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> > > to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> > > --
> > > Phillip M. Jones
> >
> > What broad assumptions are you talking about?
> > Joe uses Windows 98 and I use Windows 95 on my machine.
> > I informed him of my experience - no assumptions, just fact.
> > I run NS 4.75, NS 6.2, Moz 0.95, IE 5.5 and Opera 5.12 all at the
> > same time, all on my lowly Pentium 166 MMX with 64 MB of RAM and
> > I have no problems with any conflicts - full default installs.
> > If you're interested in speed, it's not too bad at all for me.
> >
> > Gus
>
> The assumption was in that you were assuming that everyone either uses
> windox or 'nix machines.
> The Conflict does appear with Communicator 4.X and Netscape 6.X using
> OS's up to 9.2.1 because Mac depends on Type and Creator Codes to
> differentiate between applications.
> information taken from either interenet Control panel or ResEdit is:
>
> Type = BINA
> Creator = MOSS, For  Communicator 4.X
>
> Type = BINA
> Creator = MOSS, For Netscape 6.X
>
> Type = BINA
> Creator = MOZZ, For Mozilla
>
> so any item maped to open with the use of Communicator 4.X in Internet
> Control Panel  (Internet Config).will open instead netscape 6 and in
> some cases try to open Communicator at same time.
>
> They could cure the problem by the following change:
>
> Type = BINA
> Creator = MOZS, For Netscape 6
>
> --
> ---
> Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
> 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
> Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
> ---
>
> If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
>
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Your assumption, that I was assuming something, was wrong.
Thanks for the roundabout way of adding that this may not be the case
for Mac users.

Gus

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

 
Pratik wrote:
 
> Appears to look right for me on Communicator 4.7.8. The opening page
> appears to show description of various html code marked in green
in places.
But see, that is not what its supposed to look like. Take a look at
it
in Mozilla or IE. Thats how its suppossed to look like (unless both
Mozill and IE display it wrong and NS4 displays it right and I totally
misunderstood how to write css code).
> clicking on button at bottom sends me to a new page with a bluish
> background and a text list with some of the text in bold and some
in
> blue indicating hot links.
That just links to the web page stats stats on some free counter website..
 
Pratik.
Okay here is the darkside's version.


Since i haven't run into that much CSS. I haven't really missed the
feature. In a funny way the way Communicator  views it is actually
more readable. Because of the larger font shown.
--
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE)
ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street
|Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm
 

Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 04 Nov 2001: 

> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Pratik wrote:
>  
> > Appears to look right for me on Communicator 4.7.8. The
> opening page > appears to show description of various html code
> marked in green in places.
> But see, that is not what its supposed to look like. Take a look
> at it

Please post in plain text.  I'm not even going to bother reading this 
senseless drivel through a barrage of HTML tags

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: Worth it?

[Pratik]

On 11/4/2001 11:36 AM, Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:


> Okay here is the darkside's version.

That looks like how I intented it to look. good.

Pratik.

Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

Asa Dotzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 30 Nov 2001: 
> What gives you any authority to make statements like that? Are you
> involved in any way in the planning that goes into this project.
> Are you being intentionally insulting to the people that work long
> hours trying to make _all_ of the product better? Are you just
> bitter or mean? 

He's just an asshole.  He doesn't bother to read anything, doesn't try 
to learn anything, does not contribute with bugs or real feedback, and 
just constantly bitches and mouths off that Mozilla sucks, plugins don't 
work on the mac (despite other people having no problems), etc.  It's 
quite amusing most of the time

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Asa Dotzler wrote:
> 
> Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> 
> 
> > As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> > while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> > to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> >
> Please stop stating that is if it was the case for everyone. You have a usage 
>pattern which differs from most other users that causes you some problem that no one 
>else can reproduce. I test Mozilla on Mac OS 8.5 (currently busted, no keyboard 
>input) 8.6, 9.1, 9.2.1, 10.0 and 10.1. I also use Communicator 4.x on those machines 
>for compatability testing and bug confirming. There are no problems with running 4.x 
>and Mozilla/6.x on the same machine.
> 
> --Asa
> 
> 

Look you better frequent some of the netscape newsgroups.

I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
partition on the same hard drive.

Its recommended by the Netscape Champions program. NOT to have N6 and
Communicator installed on the same Hard drive if using one partition (as
i do)  or on the same Partition if the drive is paritioned.

The netscape Champions program was setup using certain programers and or
users with special priviges such as acces to factory Beta software also
have access to inside info from Netscape. They even maintain a ufaq.

Supposedly they were to change something in Communicator 4.7.9 to
prevent the interference howevr; it hasn't changed things.

Again if netscape would just change the creator code from MOSS on
Netscape 6, to MOSZ or MOZS the problem would be cleared up as currently
both N6 and Communicator use MOSS. 

I don't have any problem with MOZZILLA as far as that goes because Mozz
creator code is MOZZ.

I can't believe anyone can't see it. 

And don't say the Type and creator codes are outdated there 4 to the
fourth power possible combinations for Type Codes and Creators as well.
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Asa Dotzler wrote:
> 
> Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > The reason why the the browser works but not necessarily mail and news.
> > Is because all emphasis is being placed in the Browser. The Mail and
> > news is considered an after thought.
> >
> >
> 
> What gives you any authority to make statements like that? Are you involved in any 
>way in the planning that goes into this project. 

No.

>Are you being intentionally insulting to the people that work long
hours trying to make _all_ of the product >better? Are you just bitter
or mean?

No I am not biter or mean but I am fast getting that way. Its been
stated in these newsgroups that emphasis is being placed on the browser
first and then its prefected then you will work on Mail and news.

I've posted suggestions, I've answered questions (yes some maybe wrong).
I've posted bugs. Still no difference.

Look get real. I "might" possibly be the only Mac person on this
newsgroup and wishlist. I even subscribe to the Mozilla Mac group sadly
it gets posted to once or twice a week and then only one or two post.

Mozilla group don't give a Damn about the Mac side of research. They
would just as soon see Apple and Mac crash and burn.

People have to wake up suppose one day that Apple and Mac is no longer
around. That means Mr Gates at microsoft can screw everyone around any
way he wants. He will then set his sites on UNIX. 

He already making noise about open source. (Mozilla and others). 

So research should be done on the Mac platform not just for the sake of
Mac but to keep Mr Gates in line so that "you" can freely ddesign
sofware as you desire.

So yes in a way i guess I am downright upset, bitter. And I might be
begining to get mean.


Go ahead and laugh. But wait 5 - 10 years see how hard you laugh, when
every piece of software you get on the planet has to be cleared through
Mr gates and his bunch. imagine what the prices will be like even for UNIX.

> 
> --Asa



-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
> 
> Asa Dotzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 30 Nov 2001:
> > What gives you any authority to make statements like that? Are you
> > involved in any way in the planning that goes into this project.
> > Are you being intentionally insulting to the people that work long
> > hours trying to make _all_ of the product better? Are you just
> > bitter or mean?
> 
> He's just an asshole.  He doesn't bother to read anything, doesn't try
> to learn anything, does not contribute with bugs or real feedback, and
> just constantly bitches and mouths off that Mozilla sucks, plugins don't
> work on the mac (despite other people having no problems), etc.  It's
> quite amusing most of the time
> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m


Actually I have posted several bugs, and voted on others.

(Also take one to know one :-)   )
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 01 Dec 2001: 
>>Are you being intentionally insulting to the people that work long
> hours trying to make _all_ of the product >better? Are you just
> bitter or mean?
> 
> No I am not biter or mean but I am fast getting that way. Its been
> stated in these newsgroups that emphasis is being placed on the
> browser first and then its prefected then you will work on Mail and
> news. 

That was never stated by anyone working on or in any way involved with 
Mozilla.

> 
> I've posted suggestions, I've answered questions (yes some maybe
> wrong). I've posted bugs. Still no difference.
> 
> Look get real. I "might" possibly be the only Mac person on this
> newsgroup and wishlist. I even subscribe to the Mozilla Mac group
> sadly it gets posted to once or twice a week and then only one or
> two post. 

Asa just said he runs mozilla on like 4 different Mac OSs.  Can you not 
read?

> 
> Mozilla group don't give a Damn about the Mac side of research.
> They would just as soon see Apple and Mac crash and burn.

You have no basis of this information.  You are just an ignorant dick 
head that isn't getting his own way.

> 
> People have to wake up suppose one day that Apple and Mac is no
> longer around. That means Mr Gates at microsoft can screw everyone
> around any way he wants. He will then set his sites on UNIX. 

He's been trying, yet strangely it has accomplished nothing.

> 
> He already making noise about open source. (Mozilla and others). 

Let him.  Noise about open source is free publicity.

> 
> So research should be done on the Mac platform not just for the
> sake of Mac but to keep Mr Gates in line so that "you" can freely
> ddesign sofware as you desire.

The constitution of the US of A says I can freely design anything, 
software included.  

> 
> So yes in a way i guess I am downright upset, bitter. And I might
> be begining to get mean.

You have been this way as long as I can remember.
 
> 
> Go ahead and laugh. But wait 5 - 10 years see how hard you laugh,
> when every piece of software you get on the planet has to be
> cleared through Mr gates and his bunch. imagine what the prices
> will be like even for UNIX. 

Yeah...  Sure.  You seem to imply that the Mac going bye bye would 
affect Unix somehow?  The Mac does not compete in the same market as 
Unix.  The Mac has no bearing on Unix at all.

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: Worth it?

[Chuck Simmons]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:
> 
> Asa Dotzler wrote:
> >
> > Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> > > while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> > > to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> > >
> > Please stop stating that is if it was the case for everyone. You have a usage 
>pattern which differs from most other users that causes you some problem that no one 
>else can reproduce. I test Mozilla on Mac OS 8.5 (currently busted, no keyboard 
>input) 8.6, 9.1, 9.2.1, 10.0 and 10.1. I also use Communicator 4.x on those machines 
>for compatability testing and bug confirming. There are no problems with running 4.x 
>and Mozilla/6.x on the same machine.
> >
> > --Asa
> >
> >
> 
> Look you better frequent some of the netscape newsgroups.
> 
> I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
> Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
> partition on the same hard drive.
> 
> Its recommended by the Netscape Champions program. NOT to have N6 and
> Communicator installed on the same Hard drive if using one partition (as
> i do)  or on the same Partition if the drive is paritioned.

I'm sorry but Asa can find out all about the Netscape Champions from
some other folks who he works with. Dan Vedits (sorry if I misspelled
that) for one. How we came about is history. That we still help with
Netscape problems is habit or whatever though we still get some good
help from some very good Netscape engineers.

The actual recommendation is not to share profiles because of some
changes in preferences that can cause surprises and worse. There is
nothing special about having Netscape and Mozilla in the same partition.
They don't do battle with thermonuclear weapons on you disk drive
leaving craters and land mines. It is just that there are occasional
problems with preferences when profiles are shared.

Asa is right. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The
exageration is insulting to developers. Dragging in the Netscape
Champions is not fair to us because we are always working with the
balance that fits the user who asks a question. I am not going to tell a
completely green user to fix his problem by writing a Perl script. I
will give him guidelines that I consider safe for his level of
expertise.

Don't be so confrontational. I know Asa's tone is very different when he
thinks he can say words that will help. Look for other posts from
Netscape and Mozilla developers when they are confronted with a real
problem with a real solution or even no solution. They tell you a lot.
After all, this is an open source project. We can all know as much or as
little as we wish.

Chuck
-- 
... The times have been, 
 That, when the brains were out, 
  the man would die. ... Macbeth 
   Chuck Simmons  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Chuck Simmons wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:
> >
> > Asa Dotzler wrote:
> > >
> > > Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > > As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> > > > while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> > > > to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other.
> > > >
> > > Please stop stating that is if it was the case for everyone. You have a usage 
>pattern which differs from most other users that causes you some problem that no one 
>else can reproduce. I test Mozilla on Mac OS 8.5 (currently busted, no keyboard 
>input) 8.6, 9.1, 9.2.1, 10.0 and 10.1. I also use Communicator 4.x on those machines 
>for compatability testing and bug confirming. There are no problems with running 4.x 
>and Mozilla/6.x on the same machine.
> > >
> > > --Asa
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Look you better frequent some of the netscape newsgroups.
> >
> > I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
> > Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
> > partition on the same hard drive.
> >
> > Its recommended by the Netscape Champions program. NOT to have N6 and
> > Communicator installed on the same Hard drive if using one partition (as
> > i do)  or on the same Partition if the drive is paritioned.
> 
> I'm sorry but Asa can find out all about the Netscape Champions from
> some other folks who he works with. Dan Vedits (sorry if I misspelled
> that) for one. How we came about is history. That we still help with
> Netscape problems is habit or whatever though we still get some good
> help from some very good Netscape engineers.
> 
> The actual recommendation is not to share profiles because of some
> changes in preferences that can cause surprises and worse. There is
> nothing special about having Netscape and Mozilla in the same partition.
> They don't do battle with thermonuclear weapons on you disk drive
> leaving craters and land mines. It is just that there are occasional
> problems with preferences when profiles are shared.
> 
> Asa is right. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The
> exageration is insulting to developers. Dragging in the Netscape
> Champions is not fair to us because we are always working with the
> balance that fits the user who asks a question. I am not going to tell a
> completely green user to fix his problem by writing a Perl script. I
> will give him guidelines that I consider safe for his level of
> expertise.
> 
> Don't be so confrontational. I know Asa's tone is very different when he
> thinks he can say words that will help. Look for other posts from
> Netscape and Mozilla developers when they are confronted with a real
> problem with a real solution or even no solution. They tell you a lot.
> After all, this is an open source project. We can all know as much or as
> little as we wish.
> 
> Chuck
> --
> ... The times have been,
>  That, when the brains were out,
>   the man would die. ... Macbeth
>Chuck Simmons  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Okay please explain for admonition by the Champs "Not to place
Communicator and netscape 6 on the same partion on your hard Drive". 

I realize that Mozilla and netscape 6 can actaully use one anothers
preferences because the path to preferences is Name (name of Hard Drive)
> Documents > Mozilla > User Profile.

But i am refering to Communicator and netscape 6.

Communicator's preferences are located in System File > preferences File
> Netscape User Folder, Profile Folder. There is no way they can share Preferences.

However, The Mac uses both Internet Config and and File Exchange. Both
depend upon Type and creator codes. 

If for example say I want to update Interarchy from with Interarchy and
and both Netscape 6 and Communicator are present on same Partition
Internet Config /Internet Contol panel will call up netscape 6 instead
Communicator as i have set. Throwing away Internet Control panel's
preferences make no difference becaus it does a poll of all the
applications it finds Communicator with Type APPL Creator MOSS, and it
finds Netscape 6 with Type APPL,  and Creator MOSS.

So guess what happens. Both try to open. But Netscape 6 has code to kill
off any other application with the same Type and Creator. SO even though
I plainly have set Communicator as the browser to use to go to website
to update application (I used Interarchy in this example but it could be
anything) netscape 6 comes up.  I can repeat this for a thousand years
if necessary. It will come up the same.

So please explain why I get this problem is its not a conflict between
the type and creator code.


And Finally I was not trying to "Drag" the Champions program in to this,
other than to state that memebers of the Champs program on the
Communicator Mac groups have suggested "Not to place N6 and Communicator
either on same partition if your drive is partitioned or on t

Re: Worth it?

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
> Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
> partition on the same hard drive.


Installing them on the same disk might mix up icons and the 
double-clicking associations. Other than that, there is no risk.

The icon mix-up does not imply corruption of the contents of the files. 
The contents are OK. It is only a Finder-level thing.

If you don't like the icon mix-up, you can use disk images. You don't 
need another hard drive.


-- 
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.clinet.fi/~henris/

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
-snip-
> 
> You have been this way as long as I can remember.

Actually, when i first started on these groups I wasn't. But the more i
saw things deteriate  (inthe program) and the more I asked what was
going on or reported bugs, or voted on bugs, or offerred comments then
was promptly shot down. The more things deteriated even more. 

I can remember several versions ago I could look at pages on 

snews://secnews.netscape.com/test.multimedia

And in some cases I could hear sounds or see images. Actions such as
drifter, Marquee and such wouldn't work because the layer comand was
used in code. And I understood that. 

Now for several versions I get no sound at all and the images flash on
and off so fast you can't tell what's what and the only way to get out
of the page is to do a force quit. The only response I get get lost, it
ain't happening, your imagining things. So instead of any offerring to
help figure out what is happening I get blown off as a crackpot

Heck I'd be willing to send a copy of my about plugins, and my system
profiler File to anyone seriously interested in figuring out what the
problem is. I'm open to suggestions. But; since I've never had anyone
say can you send me information so I can look into it. I must assume
then it does happen no one has a solution.

> 
> >
> > Go ahead and laugh. But wait 5 - 10 years see how hard you laugh,
> > when every piece of software you get on the planet has to be
> > cleared through Mr gates and his bunch. imagine what the prices
> > will be like even for UNIX.
> 
> Yeah...  Sure.  You seem to imply that the Mac going bye bye would
> affect Unix somehow?  The Mac does not compete in the same market as
> Unix.  The Mac has no bearing on Unix at all.

Yes, I am  - because  if Apple was gone, Gates could consentrate all his
efforts at buying up or killing open source for UNIX and other products.
You better thank your lucky stars tha Mac is around. Its a deversion for
Mr Gates to not place 100% of his efforts against UNIX and Open Source.

> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 01 Dec 2001: 
>> 
>> Yeah...  Sure.  You seem to imply that the Mac going bye bye would
>> affect Unix somehow?  The Mac does not compete in the same market
>> as Unix.  The Mac has no bearing on Unix at all.
> 
> Yes, I am  - because  if Apple was gone, Gates could consentrate
> all his efforts at buying up or killing open source for UNIX and
> other products. You better thank your lucky stars tha Mac is
> around. Its a deversion for Mr Gates to not place 100% of his
> efforts against UNIX and Open Source. 

You can't "buy up" Unix.  Hell, let Bill Gates try to take on Unix in 
the server market.  Never happen.  Unix is too powerful.  And since it's 
open source, you can take plain vanilla unix and craft it to anything to 
suit your needs.  Can't do that with any MS product.  Bring it on, Mr. 
Gates, Open Source is here to stay and there is no way Microsoft could 
eliminate *nix (MS has been trying to eliminate Linux for years, still 
not happening.  In fact, Linux has *gained* market share)

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: Worth it?

[Chuck Simmons]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." wrote:
> 
> 
> Okay please explain for admonition by the Champs "Not to place
> Communicator and netscape 6 on the same partion on your hard Drive".
> 
> I realize that Mozilla and netscape 6 can actaully use one anothers
> preferences because the path to preferences is Name (name of Hard Drive)
> > Documents > Mozilla > User Profile.
> 
> But i am refering to Communicator and netscape 6.
> 
> Communicator's preferences are located in System File > preferences File
> > Netscape User Folder, Profile Folder. There is no way they can share Preferences.
> 
> However, The Mac uses both Internet Config and and File Exchange. Both
> depend upon Type and creator codes.
> 
> If for example say I want to update Interarchy from with Interarchy and
> and both Netscape 6 and Communicator are present on same Partition
> Internet Config /Internet Contol panel will call up netscape 6 instead
> Communicator as i have set. Throwing away Internet Control panel's
> preferences make no difference becaus it does a poll of all the
> applications it finds Communicator with Type APPL Creator MOSS, and it
> finds Netscape 6 with Type APPL,  and Creator MOSS.
> 
> So guess what happens. Both try to open. But Netscape 6 has code to kill
> off any other application with the same Type and Creator. SO even though
> I plainly have set Communicator as the browser to use to go to website
> to update application (I used Interarchy in this example but it could be
> anything) netscape 6 comes up.  I can repeat this for a thousand years
> if necessary. It will come up the same.
> 
> So please explain why I get this problem is its not a conflict between
> the type and creator code.
> 
> And Finally I was not trying to "Drag" the Champions program in to this,
> other than to state that memebers of the Champs program on the
> Communicator Mac groups have suggested "Not to place N6 and Communicator
> either on same partition if your drive is partitioned or on the same
> hard drive because of this problem. No other reason was intended. The
> Champs program has helped out me a lot with Communicator. And I suppose
> will continue to do as long as Communicator is Viable.

Never mind. I have had my ration of talking to fence posts this week.

Chuck
-- 
... The times have been, 
 That, when the brains were out, 
  the man would die. ... Macbeth 
   Chuck Simmons  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Worth it?

[Jay Garcia]

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

 
> I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
> Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
> partition on the same hard drive.


Where did you come up with this bit of info ??? The Champions Program
has never made this recommendation.

> Its recommended by the Netscape Champions program. NOT to have N6 and
> Communicator installed on the same Hard drive if using one partition (as
> i do)  or on the same Partition if the drive is paritioned.


See above reply

I run NS 6, Mozilla AND Communicator on the same drive on 8 different
workstations here with no noticeable conflicts whatsoever.

My brother does the same on 4 different Macs including a G4 with no
noticeable problems.

-- 
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Novell MCNE-5/CNI-Networking Technologies-OSI
UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org

Re: Worth it?

[RV]

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

> 

Phillip:
The problem is that you are constantly making comments, responding to 
others posts and critisizing using completely erroneous information. 
That doesn't add any credibility to you, on the contrary. Sometimes you 
respond to people with answers that are off the wall or even absurd.
Case in point: It is clear to me you have no idea/concept what open 
source is. Otherwise you would have not made the comment about MS 
"buying" and eventually destroying open source software. Go back and 
read about that subject before making those absurd comments.

Other examples that come to mind.

1. I remember you once stating that you have limited experience in 
programing and as an example you mentioned that years ago you used to 
edit autoexec.bat files for MS DOS. That was vey funny.

2. You have made comments about how to format a PC drive showing your 
ignorance about FDISK vs. c:\format c: command. I am just amazed about 
how a person can keep making erroneous comments like this in a public 
setting. You even implied that a person using that command could wipe a 
HD clean by mistake. It would have taken quiote a few mistakes in a row 
before a complete reformat of a drive could have happened.

3. Making erroneous comments about the use and meaning of /, \, and | in 
*nix, and DOS-Win environment.

4. The big debate about your erroneous postings on "quotable printable 
characters" in emails

5. Download manager issue. .. that was a big one!

I think you have knowledge with Mac and very little to none up-to-date- 
knowledge on other OS (e.g., Win/ *nix). Maybe you should consider using 
your energy and knowledge in what you know best. If the Mac newsgroups 
languish is because the Mac guys are nor participating. I am sure 
mozilla/netscape would like to have more mac open source developers 
working on the code. Most of this work is done by volunteers, therefore 
Mac knowlageable people must come forward and do their part .. code 
writing, triaging, constructive criticism (suggestions) and less whinning.



BTW, Iam curious about what C.E.T. really means? .. besides the acronym 
(Certified Electronics Tech) .. computer/electronic equipment repairs 
and setups?

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Henri Sivonen wrote:
> 
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > I can not believe that I am the only one having the problem if the
> > Netscape Champions program recommends not puting both on the same
> > partition on the same hard drive.
> 
> 
> Installing them on the same disk might mix up icons and the
> double-clicking associations. Other than that, there is no risk.
> 
> The icon mix-up does not imply corruption of the contents of the files.
> The contents are OK. It is only a Finder-level thing.
> 
> If you don't like the icon mix-up, you can use disk images. You don't
> need another hard drive.
> 
> 
> --
> Henri Sivonen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.clinet.fi/~henris/

Disk Images? You mean save the Netscape 6 entire install as a SMI
format? Like the download of 9.2.1 is formatted?
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 01 Dec 2001:
> >>
> >> Yeah...  Sure.  You seem to imply that the Mac going bye bye would
> >> affect Unix somehow?  The Mac does not compete in the same market
> >> as Unix.  The Mac has no bearing on Unix at all.
> >
> > Yes, I am  - because  if Apple was gone, Gates could consentrate
> > all his efforts at buying up or killing open source for UNIX and
> > other products. You better thank your lucky stars tha Mac is
> > around. Its a deversion for Mr Gates to not place 100% of his
> > efforts against UNIX and Open Source.
> 
> You can't "buy up" Unix.  Hell, let Bill Gates try to take on Unix in
> the server market.  Never happen.  Unix is too powerful.  And since it's
> open source, you can take plain vanilla unix and craft it to anything to
> suit your needs.  Can't do that with any MS product.  Bring it on, Mr.
> Gates, Open Source is here to stay and there is no way Microsoft could
> eliminate *nix (MS has been trying to eliminate Linux for years, still
> not happening.  In fact, Linux has *gained* market share)
> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m

I seriously hope you are right. But then when the US Government took him
on I thought he'd be broken up into a thousand little piece like the
phone company.

But no he has bambuzzled the Feds and all they did was "hey don't do
that" and whacked him on the wrist with a ruler.

What should have been done was Allowed him to keep the MS operating
system only and all other products and influences would have to sold or
given to other software vendors. Even IE/OE/Entourage should not have
beeen spared.

To me anyone with "that" much power. Is down right scary. 

His influence caused Symantec to kill Derinia FaxPro on the Mac. There
are litterally hundreds of faxing software on the PC. Delrina FaxPro was
among the best ever on the Mac Platform (one of only three) and would
have given Apple something to give Microsoft a run for their money. But,
due to influence from Microsoft Delrina was promptly killed within a
month of purchase by symantec. Even though in a notice sent around by
owner and staff of Delrina that Symantec had committed to years of
continued development and support, or else they would not have sold to
them. The Faxpro line still exist on the PC side of things.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

RV wrote:
> 
> Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> Phillip:
> The problem is that you are constantly making comments, responding to
> others posts and critisizing using completely erroneous information.
> That doesn't add any credibility to you, on the contrary. Sometimes you
> respond to people with answers that are off the wall or even absurd.
> Case in point: It is clear to me you have no idea/concept what open
> source is. Otherwise you would have not made the comment about MS
> "buying" and eventually destroying open source software. Go back and
> read about that subject before making those absurd comments.
> 
> Other examples that come to mind.
> 
> 1. I remember you once stating that you have limited experience in
> programing and as an example you mentioned that years ago you used to
> edit autoexec.bat files for MS DOS. That was vey funny.

I believe it was very limited. and the use of the Autoexec or config.sys
files was to show how limited it was.
> 
> 2. You have made comments about how to format a PC drive showing your
> ignorance about FDISK vs. c:\format c: command. I am just amazed about
> how a person can keep making erroneous comments like this in a public
> setting. You even implied that a person using that command could wipe a
> HD clean by mistake. It would have taken quiote a few mistakes in a row
> before a complete reformat of a drive could have happened.


There "is"  a difference between fdisk and Init (Intialize)

> 
> 3. Making erroneous comments about the use and meaning of /, \, and | in
> *nix, and DOS-Win environment.

Its been years since I've dealt with / and \ in Dos I know one is switch
for Directory.
the other is a switch for "system" command.

| in Unix is called (I believe) a pipe 

> 
> 4. The big debate about your erroneous postings on "quotable printable
> characters" in emails

I
> 
> 5. Download Manager issue. .. that was a big one!

???. Don't remeber that one. Your not taking about the Location Bar in
two pane mode are you?

> 
> I think you have knowledge with Mac and very little to none up-to-date-
> knowledge on other OS (e.g., Win/ *nix). Maybe you should consider using
> your energy and knowledge in what you know best. If the Mac newsgroups
> languish is because the Mac guys are nor participating. I am sure
> mozilla/netscape would like to have more mac open source developers
> working on the code. Most of this work is done by volunteers, therefore
> Mac knowlageable people must come forward and do their part .. code
> writing, triaging, constructive criticism (suggestions) and less whinning.
> 
> BTW, Iam curious about what C.E.T. really means? .. besides the acronym
> (Certified Electronics Tech) .. computer/electronic equipment repairs
> and setups?

Stands for Certified Electronics Technician (Certified in Consumer
Electronics - Radio/TV/Stereo)
Worked in School system in VA at one time I worked for on Electronics
for 25 schools. Worked on Audio-Visual Equipment, PA, Radio/TV/Stereo,
Computers, Monitors. (Computer names worked on : Epson, IBM, Tesas
Instruments TI-88, Apple, Comodore, WINN, & Machintosh.)
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Disk Images? You mean save the Netscape 6 entire install as a SMI
> format?

Yes. (But the disk image does not need to need a self-mounting image 
[smi] a regular image will do.)

Move the entire Netscape 6 folder on a disk image. Then unmount the 
image. Now you can rebuild the desktop file and the icons of Netscape 
Communicator return to normal. Also, when the disk image is unmounted, 
Interarchy etc. will launch Communicator.

When you need Netscape 6, you can mount the disk image in a couple of 
seconds. When you are ready to use Netscape 6 primarily, you can put the 
old Communicator on the disk image instead.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/

Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02 Dec 2001: 

>> 1. I remember you once stating that you have limited experience in
>> programing and as an example you mentioned that years ago you used
>> to edit autoexec.bat files for MS DOS. That was vey funny. 
> 
> I believe it was very limited. and the use of the Autoexec or
> config.sys files was to show how limited it was.

That is not programming.  That is editing a text file

>> 
>> 2. You have made comments about how to format a PC drive showing
>> your ignorance about FDISK vs. c:\format c: command. I am just
>> amazed about how a person can keep making erroneous comments like
>> this in a public setting. You even implied that a person using
>> that command could wipe a HD clean by mistake. It would have taken
>> quiote a few mistakes in a row before a complete reformat of a
>> drive could have happened. 
> 
> 
> There "is"  a difference between fdisk and Init (Intialize)

there is no "Init" on a PC.  In order to accidently FDISK a drive, you 
must type:
fdisk
y (if on Win 95B or higher)
3
1
y


If one were to accidently type all of that into FDISK, they deserve 
their data lost.  There is no Initialize on the PC.  There is formating.  
You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and 
not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at 
which point data is unrecoverable.  

> 
>> 
>> 3. Making erroneous comments about the use and meaning of /, \,
>> and | in *nix, and DOS-Win environment. 
> 
> Its been years since I've dealt with / and \ in Dos I know one is
> switch for Directory.
> the other is a switch for "system" command.

\ is not a switch for a directory.  \ is the directory seperator.  c:
\winnt\system32.  The \'s denote directories.  / is a switch.  most 
programs you can type %name% /? and get a list of switches.  

> 
>| in Unix is called (I believe) a pipe 

It's not called a pipe in unix.  It's called a pipe everywhere.  in the 
old Dos days, you'd do:
type somefile.txt |more
which would "Pipe" the output of the type command on somefile.txt into 
the more.com program, which displayed things one screenlength at a time

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: Worth it?

[Christian Biesinger]

DeMoN LaG wrote:

> You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and 
> not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at 
> which point data is unrecoverable.  

Data is not necessarily unrecoverable.
Firstly, only the FAT is overwritten, so the actual data is still on disk.
Secondly, there was an unformat command in MS-DOS. Unless you used 
"format /u", you could undo the formatting.

-- 
Greetings to Echelon and the NSA:
president usa attack world trade center afghanistan terrorist terrorism
bioterrorism anthrax white house pentagon car bomb

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
--snip--

> The Mac needs more than fax software to give Windows and the PC platform
> a run for it's money
> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m

I agree, they need more support from software vendors, and Distributors,
and Developers.

Let's let the thread die. its not going anywhere anyway.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02 Dec 2001:
> 
> >> 1. I remember you once stating that you have limited experience in
> >> programing and as an example you mentioned that years ago you used
> >> to edit autoexec.bat files for MS DOS. That was vey funny.
> >
> > I believe it was very limited. and the use of the Autoexec or
> > config.sys files was to show how limited it was.
> 
> That is not programming.  That is editing a text file
> 
> >>
> >> 2. You have made comments about how to format a PC drive showing
> >> your ignorance about FDISK vs. c:\format c: command. I am just
> >> amazed about how a person can keep making erroneous comments like
> >> this in a public setting. You even implied that a person using
> >> that command could wipe a HD clean by mistake. It would have taken
> >> quiote a few mistakes in a row before a complete reformat of a
> >> drive could have happened.
> >
> >
> > There "is"  a difference between fdisk and Init (Intialize)
> 
> there is no "Init" on a PC.  In order to accidently FDISK a drive, you
> must type:
> fdisk
> y (if on Win 95B or higher)
> 3
> 1
> y
> 
> 
> If one were to accidently type all of that into FDISK, they deserve
> their data lost.  There is no Initialize on the PC.  There is formating.
> You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and
> not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at
> which point data is unrecoverable.
> 
> >
> >>
> >> 3. Making erroneous comments about the use and meaning of /, \,
> >> and | in *nix, and DOS-Win environment.
> >
> > Its been years since I've dealt with / and \ in Dos I know one is
> > switch for Directory.
> > the other is a switch for "system" command.
> 
> \ is not a switch for a directory.  \ is the directory seperator.  c:
> \winnt\system32.  The \'s denote directories.  / is a switch.  most
> programs you can type %name% /? and get a list of switches.

Wrong choice of words for the Directory.

> 
> >
> >| in Unix is called (I believe) a pipe
> 
> It's not called a pipe in unix.  It's called a pipe everywhere.  in the
> old Dos days, you'd do:
> type somefile.txt |more
> which would "Pipe" the output of the type command on somefile.txt into
> the more.com program, which displayed things one screenlength at a time

Never saw "|" used on DOS. had to deal with DOS 3.1, 3.2, 3.3

I might still have an Epson Equity III DOS Manual I believe it was using
DOS 3.1

several years since used DOS.

> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: Worth it?

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Do you use DiskCopy. to make image.

Yes.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/

Re: Worth it?

[Simon P. Lucy]

On 02/12/2001 at 21:38 Christian Biesinger wrote:

>DeMoN LaG wrote:
>
>> You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and 
>> not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at 
>> which point data is unrecoverable.  
>
>Data is not necessarily unrecoverable.
>Firstly, only the FAT is overwritten, so the actual data is still on disk.
>Secondly, there was an unformat command in MS-DOS. Unless you used 
>"format /u", you could undo the formatting.

The actual operation of the FORMAT command is/was up to the OEM shipping
the OS, whilst most OEMs just shipped the standard FORMAT any OEM could and
some did modify its behaviour.  Original releases of MS-DOS didn't even
have a concept of hard disks as such, other than they didn't have the
removeable bit set.

Other than that the Unix like extensions to MS-DOS came out with version 2,
redirectable I/O with < and >, |, subdirectory paths (you could switch,
still can I think, the path symbol from '\' to '/' by using the switch
option in config.sys).  Microsoft had a posix set of tools tr,srt etc, etc
from that time on, they were never really distributed though.

Simon
>
>-- 
>Greetings to Echelon and the NSA:
>president usa attack world trade center afghanistan terrorist terrorism
>bioterrorism anthrax white house pentagon car bomb

Re: Worth it?

[Asa Dotzler]

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:


> As I've been chided here often. Don't make broad brush assumptions.
> while on 'nix and windows you can do this Netscape 6 and Communicator up
> to 4.7.8 do conflict with each other. 
> 
Please stop stating that is if it was the case for everyone. You have a usage pattern 
which differs from most other users that causes you some problem that no one else can 
reproduce. I test Mozilla on Mac OS 8.5 (currently busted, no keyboard input) 8.6, 
9.1, 9.2.1, 10.0 and 10.1. I also use Communicator 4.x on those machines for 
compatability testing and bug confirming. There are no problems with running 4.x and 
Mozilla/6.x on the same machine. 


--Asa

 

Re: Worth it?

[Asa Dotzler]

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

> 

> The reason why the the browser works but not necessarily mail and news.
> Is because all emphasis is being placed in the Browser. The Mail and
> news is considered an after thought.
> 
> 


What gives you any authority to make statements like that? Are you involved in any way 
in the planning that goes into this project. Are you being intentionally insulting to 
the people that work long hours trying to make _all_ of the product better? Are you 
just bitter or mean?


--Asa

DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

"Simon P. Lucy" wrote:
> 
> On 02/12/2001 at 21:38 Christian Biesinger wrote:
> 
> >DeMoN LaG wrote:
> >
> >> You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and
> >> not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at
> >> which point data is unrecoverable.
> >
> >Data is not necessarily unrecoverable.
> >Firstly, only the FAT is overwritten, so the actual data is still on disk.
> >Secondly, there was an unformat command in MS-DOS. Unless you used
> >"format /u", you could undo the formatting.
> 
> The actual operation of the FORMAT command is/was up to the OEM shipping
> the OS, whilst most OEMs just shipped the standard FORMAT any OEM could and
> some did modify its behaviour.  Original releases of MS-DOS didn't even
> have a concept of hard disks as such, other than they didn't have the
> removeable bit set.
> 
> Other than that the Unix like extensions to MS-DOS came out with version 2,
> redirectable I/O with < and >, |, subdirectory paths (you could switch,
> still can I think, the path symbol from '\' to '/' by using the switch
> option in config.sys).  Microsoft had a posix set of tools tr,srt etc, etc
> from that time on, they were never really distributed though.
> 
> Simon
> >
> >--
> >Greetings to Echelon and the NSA:
> >president usa attack world trade center afghanistan terrorist terrorism
> >bioterrorism anthrax white house pentagon car bomb

when i was working Most PC Machines were some version of the Epson
Equity line (I, II, III), and Custom Built version called WINN. Unlike
the Epson Machines that were exactly alike in a version line (there were
differences between I version, II version, or III version), using
exactly the same Floppy Drives, Hard Drives, Power Supplies, Etc.; the
only thing common about the WIIN boxes were the outside case. Everything
was different, logic boards, video cards, Hard Drives, Floppy Drives,
CD-ROM drives (for those with them).

The Epson Equity I line used MS-DOS 2.x, the II line used MS-DOS 3.1.x,
the III line uses 3.3.x 

I don't remember using | but I do remember using the \ and /'s

I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We mostly
used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only ones allowed
to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the very first version of
W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am asking not stating as fact. so
don't get wound up if I am wrong. Anyway it gives you an idea of how
long since I have looked at DOS. 

I used On-Track software to setup and initialize new Hard drives when I
had to replace Hard drives.

Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or Double
Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg hard drive.
Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives tended to fail in
a short period of time and need replacing.

I was replacing Floppy or Hard drives in DOS/Windows machines about
every two to three weeks. 

On the Mac we had SE's mostly. I replaced on Hard drive and one power
Supply. Until we started using the LC line (pizzabox machines). Then we
had a run on any using Maxtor Hard drives. If Quantum Drives were used,
no problems.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

"Simon P. Lucy" wrote:
> 
> On 02/12/2001 at 21:38 Christian Biesinger wrote:
> 
> >DeMoN LaG wrote:
> >
> >> You can technically format a drive to about 80% and then cancel it and
> >> not have a problem, as the drive's FAT is not written until the end, at
> >> which point data is unrecoverable.
> >
> >Data is not necessarily unrecoverable.
> >Firstly, only the FAT is overwritten, so the actual data is still on disk.
> >Secondly, there was an unformat command in MS-DOS. Unless you used
> >"format /u", you could undo the formatting.
> 
> The actual operation of the FORMAT command is/was up to the OEM shipping
> the OS, whilst most OEMs just shipped the standard FORMAT any OEM could and
> some did modify its behaviour.  Original releases of MS-DOS didn't even
> have a concept of hard disks as such, other than they didn't have the
> removeable bit set.
> 
> Other than that the Unix like extensions to MS-DOS came out with version 2,
> redirectable I/O with < and >, |, subdirectory paths (you could switch,
> still can I think, the path symbol from '\' to '/' by using the switch
> option in config.sys).  Microsoft had a posix set of tools tr,srt etc, etc
> from that time on, they were never really distributed though.
> 
> Simon
> >
> >--
> >Greetings to Echelon and the NSA:
> >president usa attack world trade center afghanistan terrorist terrorism
> >bioterrorism anthrax white house pentagon car bomb

when i was working Most PC Machines were some version of the Epson
Equity line (I, II, III), and Custom Built version called WINN. Unlike
the Epson Machines that were exactly alike in a version line (there were
differences between I version, II version, or III version), using
exactly the same Floppy Drives, Hard Drives, Power Supplies, Etc.; the
only thing common about the WIIN boxes were the outside case. Everything
was different, logic boards, video cards, Hard Drives, Floppy Drives,
CD-ROM drives (for those with them).

The Epson Equity I line used MS-DOS 2.x, the II line used MS-DOS 3.1.x,
the III line uses 3.3.x 

I don't remember using | but I do remember using the \ and /'s

I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We mostly
used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only ones allowed
to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the very first version of
W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am asking not stating as fact. so
don't get wound up if I am wrong. Anyway it gives you an idea of how
long since I have looked at DOS. 

I used On-Track software to setup and initialize new Hard drives when I
had to replace Hard drives.

Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or Double
Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg hard drive.
Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives tended to fail in
a short period of time and need replacing.

I was replacing Floppy or Hard drives in DOS/Windows machines about
every two to three weeks. 

On the Mac we had SE's mostly. I replaced on Hard drive and one power
Supply. Until we started using the LC line (pizzabox machines). Then we
had a run on any using Maxtor Hard drives. If Quantum Drives were used,
no problems.

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[DeMoN LaG]

"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03 Dec 2001: 

> I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We
> mostly used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only
> ones allowed to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the
> very first version of W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am
> asking not stating as fact. so don't get wound up if I am wrong.
> Anyway it gives you an idea of how long since I have looked at DOS.

The first version of Windows 95 came out in 95

> 
> I used On-Track software to setup and initialize new Hard drives
> when I had to replace Hard drives.

Why not use FDISK?

> 
> Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or
> Double Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg
> hard drive. Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives
> tended to fail in a short period of time and need replacing.

Completely unrelated.  First, Doublespace was a compression program.  
Saying a 20 meg drive could hold 40 megs was like saying a 40 meg file 
will zip to 20 megs.  If you stored nothing but .exe files which don't 
tend to compress well on it, you would see a loss of space on the drive.

Doublespace could not cause a drive to mechanically fail, any more than 
any other program that reads and writes to the disk can cause it to 
fail.
> 
> I was replacing Floppy or Hard drives in DOS/Windows machines about
> every two to three weeks. 

Then there was something wrong with the working environment.  I have a 
floppy drive from '92 that is working perfectly fine still.  I have two 
old Seagate hard drives of 428 and ~150 megs that both work fine.

-- 
ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
AIM: FlyersR1 9
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_ = m

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Chuck Simmons]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03 Dec 2001:
> 
> > I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We
> > mostly used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only
> > ones allowed to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the
> > very first version of W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am
> > asking not stating as fact. so don't get wound up if I am wrong.
> > Anyway it gives you an idea of how long since I have looked at DOS.
> 
> The first version of Windows 95 came out in 95

August 95 was the first official release.

> >
> > I used On-Track software to setup and initialize new Hard drives
> > when I had to replace Hard drives.
> 
> Why not use FDISK?

Fdisk is destructive of data. I use Linux fdisk and Partition Magic to
avoid data loss.

> >
> > Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or
> > Double Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg
> > hard drive. Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives
> > tended to fail in a short period of time and need replacing.
> 
> Completely unrelated.  First, Doublespace was a compression program.
> Saying a 20 meg drive could hold 40 megs was like saying a 40 meg file
> will zip to 20 megs.  If you stored nothing but .exe files which don't
> tend to compress well on it, you would see a loss of space on the drive.

Executables, like text files compress very well. Four to one compression
is seen at times. This is why software download files are usually
compressed. The trouble with Doublespace was that it was hard to recover
a damaged file system.

> Doublespace could not cause a drive to mechanically fail, any more than
> any other program that reads and writes to the disk can cause it to
> fail.
> >
> > I was replacing Floppy or Hard drives in DOS/Windows machines about
> > every two to three weeks.
> 
> Then there was something wrong with the working environment.  I have a
> floppy drive from '92 that is working perfectly fine still.  I have two
> old Seagate hard drives of 428 and ~150 megs that both work fine.

Actually, drive failures are more likely today than they were in 1995.
In 1980 when I went into the disk industry, the development pace was not
so frantic as now and drives tended to be pretty reliable. Today, I
don't trust the drive makers. I left the disk industry in 1996 and am
glad of it. I watched a whole product line go out with tail dragger
heads. They were very crash prone. Curiously, I still have a couple of
engineering prototypes from just before the tail draggers that work. The
couple of tail draggers I have crashed long ago.

Chuck
-- 
... The times have been, 
 That, when the brains were out, 
  the man would die. ... Macbeth 
   Chuck Simmons  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[David Gerard]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:42:12 -0700,
Chuck Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:DeMoN LaG wrote:
:> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
:> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03 Dec 2001:

:> > I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We
:> > mostly used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only
:> > ones allowed to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the
:> > very first version of W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am
:> > asking not stating as fact. so don't get wound up if I am wrong.
:> > Anyway it gives you an idea of how long since I have looked at DOS.
 
:> The first version of Windows 95 came out in 95

:August 95 was the first official release.


Betas were pretty readily available before then. I once saw a beta being
used as-was in a lawyer's office in early 1997. File Manager and all.
Version number came up as 3.95.


-- 
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/  http://www.rocknerd.org/
"Sorry sunshine, but I have clothes that have been around longer than you. All
I lack is pathetic scenester need to throw myself into the tiny limelight of
the club world and stay there for lack of anything else better to do for ten
plus years. This is a flaw I can live with."  (Jim Dugan)

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

DeMoN LaG wrote:
> 
> "Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03 Dec 2001:
> 
> > I retired the summer after the first version of W-95 came out. We
> > mostly used Windows 3.1.1. at the four high schools were the only
> > ones allowed to try W-95. Am I remembering wrong but didn't the
> > very first version of W-95 actually come out in 93 or 94? I am
> > asking not stating as fact. so don't get wound up if I am wrong.
> > Anyway it gives you an idea of how long since I have looked at DOS.
> 
> The first version of Windows 95 came out in 95

Okay. If it was 95 then it was 95, I was thinking the had prerealese version.


> > I used On-Track software to setup and initialize new Hard drives
> > when I had to replace Hard drives.
> >
> Why not use FDISK?

Because it was recommended and packaged with the Hard drive
Manufacturers at the time. Mostly Segate.
 

> > Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or
> > Double Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg
> > hard drive. Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives
> > tended to fail in a short period of time and need replacing.
> 
> Completely unrelated.  First, Doublespace was a compression program.
> Saying a 20 meg drive could hold 40 megs was like saying a 40 meg file
> will zip to 20 megs.  If you stored nothing but .exe files which don't
> tend to compress well on it, you would see a loss of space on the drive.
> 
> Doublespace could not cause a drive to mechanically fail, any more than
> any other program that reads and writes to the disk can cause it to
> fail.

Unless it was another utility, I read and was told that what it did was
rewrite the directory in such a way that it caused to drive write to
more of the sectors on the drive. Making the drive work harder to try to
write in-between sectors. If that's wrong. then the information givenat
the time was wrong at the time.

A similar technology was tried on Mac for a while but was discovered it
caused major file corruption.

Anyway when we quit using the utility the drives lasted longer

> >
> > I was replacing Floppy or Hard drives in DOS/Windows machines about
> > every two to three weeks.
> 
> Then there was something wrong with the working environment.  I have a
> floppy drive from '92 that is working perfectly fine still.  I have two
> old Seagate hard drives of 428 and ~150 megs that both work fine.

That may be true. But your talking about a schhol system. Many of them
had no air conditioning except throw open 60 year old windows. Also,
abusive (to equipment children) inept (at least on computers) teachers
and supervision (In some schools the 3rd and 4th graders knew more about
the computers than the teachers did.

As for drives this was between 83 - 95 up until early 90's drives larger
than 50meg were rare and 10,20meg drives were the norm. the normal
Floppy was a 5.25 drive. How many still have computer with 5.25 floppy.
Can you still get 5.25 media?

> 
> --
> ICQ: N/A (temporarily)
> AIM: FlyersR1 9
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _ = m

-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Simon P. Lucy]

On 04/12/2001 at 18:44 Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

>> > Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or
>> > Double Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg
>> > hard drive. Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives
>> > tended to fail in a short period of time and need replacing.
>> 
>> Completely unrelated.  First, Doublespace was a compression program.
>> Saying a 20 meg drive could hold 40 megs was like saying a 40 meg file
>> will zip to 20 megs.  If you stored nothing but .exe files which don't
>> tend to compress well on it, you would see a loss of space on the drive.
>> 
>> Doublespace could not cause a drive to mechanically fail, any more than
>> any other program that reads and writes to the disk can cause it to
>> fail.
>
>Unless it was another utility, I read and was told that what it did was
>rewrite the directory in such a way that it caused to drive write to
>more of the sectors on the drive. Making the drive work harder to try to
>write in-between sectors. If that's wrong. then the information givenat
>the time was wrong at the time.

DoubleSpace and similar OS extensions could expose weak drives/controllers,
they also tended to suffer from fixed buffer overflow problems so that the
drive could become corrupted.  Running a compressed drive close to its
theoretical maximum size could also cause problems.

Simon

Re: DOS was Re: Worth it?

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

"Simon P. Lucy" wrote:
> 
> On 04/12/2001 at 18:44 Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> 
> >> > Everyone was using a utility called something like Drive Space or
> >> > Double Space that would let you hold 40megs of info on a 20 meg
> >> > hard drive. Using this utility though at the time, the hard drives
> >> > tended to fail in a short period of time and need replacing.
> >>
> >> Completely unrelated.  First, Doublespace was a compression program.
> >> Saying a 20 meg drive could hold 40 megs was like saying a 40 meg file
> >> will zip to 20 megs.  If you stored nothing but .exe files which don't
> >> tend to compress well on it, you would see a loss of space on the drive.
> >>
> >> Doublespace could not cause a drive to mechanically fail, any more than
> >> any other program that reads and writes to the disk can cause it to
> >> fail.
> >
> >Unless it was another utility, I read and was told that what it did was
> >rewrite the directory in such a way that it caused to drive write to
> >more of the sectors on the drive. Making the drive work harder to try to
> >write in-between sectors. If that's wrong. then the information givenat
> >the time was wrong at the time.
> 
> DoubleSpace and similar OS extensions could expose weak drives/controllers,
> they also tended to suffer from fixed buffer overflow problems so that the
> drive could become corrupted.  Running a compressed drive close to its
> theoretical maximum size could also cause problems.
> 
> Simon

Thanks for saying doing as you say "could" cause weak drives to fail sooner

DoubleSpace and similar OS extensions could expose weak drives/controllers

Anyway Quit using the Utilities at the time made the drives last longer
even though they wouldn't hold as much (at that time in history).
-- 
---
Phillip M. Jones, CET  |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:275-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/america/default.htm
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/message/default.htm

Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Peter Moscatt]

I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
Is it worth to upgrade ?

Pete

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Bill Lee]

Peter Moscatt wrote:

> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
> Is it worth to upgrade ?
> 
> Pete
> 

It doesn't crash any less if that's what you're asking.  Otherwise, 
it's a vast improvement.

bl

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Peter Moscatt]

Thanks Bill. well yep, you have answered all questions  :-)

Thanks Bill.

Pete


Bill Lee wrote:

> Peter Moscatt wrote:
> 
>> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
>> Is it worth to upgrade ?
>> 
>> Pete
>> 
> 
> It doesn't crash any less if that's what you're asking.  Otherwise,
> it's a vast improvement.
> 
> bl
> 
> 

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Asa Dotzler]

Peter Moscatt wrote:

> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
> Is it worth to upgrade ?
> 
> Pete
> 

0.8.1 is a little more stable than 0.9 and 0.8 both but 0.9 has some 
major performance improvements in mail-news and PSM.  see the release 
notes at http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla0.9/ for more info.

--Asa

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[hihihi]

Peter Moscatt wrote:

> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
> Is it worth to upgrade ?

The message filters did not work for me on 0.8.1
Just installed 0.9 and now it works.. :-)

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Ecmel ERCAN]

0.9 is very stable and fast for me.

In fact, now I am using Mozilla 0.9 as the only browser and deleted all
the others. (Opera, Netscape 4.77).



In article , "Peter
Moscatt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
> Is it worth to upgrade ?
> 
> Pete

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Peter Moscatt]

G'Day Ecmel,

Well I have taken the plunge and installed 0.9 and so far so good.

Pete


Ecmel ERCAN wrote:

> 0.9 is very stable and fast for me.
> 
> In fact, now I am using Mozilla 0.9 as the only browser and deleted all
> the others. (Opera, Netscape 4.77).
> 
> 
> 
> In article , "Peter
> Moscatt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I am currently using Mozilla 0.8 and now see there is a newer version.
>> Is it worth to upgrade ?
>> 
>> Pete
> 

Re: Mozilla 0.8 > 0.9 Is the Upgrade Worth It ??

[Alex]

Ecmel ERCAN wrote:

> 0.9 is very stable and fast for me.
> 
> In fact, now I am using Mozilla 0.9 as the only browser and deleted all
> the others. (Opera, Netscape 4.77).
> 

Might not be a completely wise move, since Mozilla is 
underdevelopment as we all know. I've been using Mozilla as 
my browser for everything (browsing, mail/news) since 
September 2000, and I still occasionally need to switch back 
to another browser. Well maybe because I use nightlies and I 
don't check Bugzilla to see if there are any blocks so I run 
into some bad builds.

-- 
Alex<:3)~~
http://www.gerbilbox.com/newzilla/